00:00:14 -!- user__ [~user_@ip-64-134-187-21.public.wayport.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:01:43 -!- harish_ [~harish@175.156.240.6] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 00:02:14 -!- Fare [~fare@cpe-69-203-115-132.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:04:11 Natch [~Natch@c-cdcee155.25-4-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 00:04:48 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-58.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:08:10 abeaumont [~abeaumont@77.231.225.138] has joined #lisp 00:12:52 -!- Vivitron [~Vivitron@c-50-172-44-193.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:13:41 kqrx`` [~user@167.220.24.4] has joined #lisp 00:14:21 ndrei [~avo@83.142.149.227] has joined #lisp 00:15:26 Fare [fare@nat/google/x-dgdbreqbvhyfurss] has joined #lisp 00:15:59 cachem0ney [~cachem0ne@l33t.csail.mit.edu] has joined #lisp 00:16:12 alx0 [~alx@213.138.88.177] has joined #lisp 00:16:37 -!- Matt_S_G [~Matt_S_G@87.109.98.30] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:16:57 Do you think it is important to remember the order of parameters to a function? As opposed to just remember what each parameter is 'for' and possibly what it's type is? 00:16:59 https://gist.github.com/burrows-labs/6944004 00:17:33 -!- kqrx` [~user@167.220.24.4] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 00:20:52 that's what &key is for, surely 00:21:41 Maybe; but then I have to remember the name of the parameter. 00:22:26 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-67-9.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:22:30 cachem0ney: try it on (divide ((integer divident) (integer divisor))) ; no can do! 00:22:32 "what it's for" 00:22:51 I agree; if you look at the top of the page it says you must use different types. 00:23:05 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:23:15 (divide (&key divident divisor)) works. (divide :divisor 3 :divident 10) 00:23:19 Bike, if I define a function that does concatenation. 00:23:36 I may not want to remember if I called it original-string, string, old-string, dest-string etc 00:23:56 concatenate works fine with just &rest 00:23:56 pjb, but I still have to remember exactly what I called it. 00:24:04 cachem0ney: you don't have to remember anything. Just type (concatenate and emacs displays in the minibuffer what arguments are expected. 00:24:24 seg [~Thunderbi@71-80-164-69.dhcp.lnbh.ca.charter.com] has joined #lisp 00:24:27 nothing like tender love from the editor 00:24:43 foremost when it's trivially done for an easy going language like lisp. 00:25:20 cachem0ney: but otherwise, for some specific cases, your macro is not bad. 00:25:26 "dest-string" is kind of worrying, also, this ain't C 00:25:32 -!- seg [~Thunderbi@71-80-164-69.dhcp.lnbh.ca.charter.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:25:43 -!- hiroakip [~hiroaki@p4FFDD3C8.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:25:58 It occurs often that we have to implement symetrical functions where (f x y) = (f y x), we could use it for that. 00:26:19 Yes, that's a good use case maybe. 00:27:07 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-67-9.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:27:39 seg 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03:00:41 -!- neoncortex [~neoncorte@unaffiliated/xispirito] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 03:00:52 -!- namtsui [~user@c-76-21-124-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 03:01:50 -!- macrobat [~beep@h-199-47.a328.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 03:02:51 -!- benny [~user@i577A1B51.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 03:05:33 ehaliewicz [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 03:06:05 macrobat [~beep@h-199-47.a328.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 03:06:09 namtsui [~user@c-76-21-124-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:06:23 -!- nilsi_ [~nilsi@221.146.90.62] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:10:06 Bike [~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu] has joined #lisp 03:22:07 -!- BrokenCog [~BrokenCog@pdpc/supporter/active/brokencog] has quit [Quit: leaving] 03:24:57 -!- antonv [5d7d2a42@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.42.66] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 03:29:38 -!- ejohnson [~Thunderbi@c-67-181-201-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 03:35:35 -!- kwmiebach [~kwmiebach@xdsl-87-78-136-36.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:35:50 ryankarason [~rak@opensource.cse.ohio-state.edu] has joined #lisp 03:36:27 beach [~user@ABordeaux-651-1-226-165.w83-193.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 03:36:40 Good morning everyone! 03:38:28 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:38:28 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-182-141-61.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:38:53 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-182-141-61.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 03:43:25 hi 03:43:30 any Windows user around? 03:43:44 (preferably with some cygwin competence) 03:45:10 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-182-141-61.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:45:17 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-182-141-61.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 03:45:27 -!- abeaumont [~abeaumont@77.231.225.226] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:48:08 -!- user__ [~user_@c-76-122-52-241.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:49:57 -!- namtsui [~user@c-76-21-124-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:50:15 namtsui [~user@c-76-21-124-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:50:17 -!- namtsui [~user@c-76-21-124-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:50:53 namtsui [~user@c-76-21-124-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:52:37 lyanchih [~lyanchih@114-34-99-241.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 03:52:58 beach: bonjour! 03:52:58 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-182-141-61.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:53:47 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-182-141-61.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 03:54:11 Fare: Hi. Sorry, no Windows experience. 03:54:20 good for you :) 03:54:26 heh 03:54:44 (trying to get asdf tested on windows before it's released) 03:55:11 Good idea. Version 3 is it? 03:55:19 3.0.3 I hope 03:55:23 current is 3.0.2 03:55:29 Ah, OK. Nice! 04:01:07 -!- jleija [~jleija@50.15.142.21] has quit [Quit: leaving] 04:01:36 ics [~ics@ool-18bf6d86.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 04:01:37 abeaumont [~abeaumont@77.231.225.194] has joined #lisp 04:01:52 -!- ics [~ics@ool-18bf6d86.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 04:02:55 ics [~ics@ool-18bf6d86.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 04:03:04 -!- ics [~ics@ool-18bf6d86.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 04:04:33 seg [~Thunderbi@71-80-164-69.dhcp.lnbh.ca.charter.com] has joined #lisp 04:18:56 desophos [~desophos@n132h78.dhcp.oxy.edu] has joined #lisp 04:21:06 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 04:22:36 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-182-141-61.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:23:24 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-182-141-61.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 04:23:40 boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 04:26:11 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 04:26:49 -!- Tuxedo [~tuxedo@bas3-cooksville17-3096519109.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: Back in a bit.] 04:32:57 -!- ericmathison [~ericmathi@172-15-249-133.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 04:34:53 drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has joined #lisp 04:34:57 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-98-246-180-47.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:39:53 -!- bananagram [~bot@c-76-30-158-226.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 04:41:50 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-98-246-180-47.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:42:24 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-98-246-180-47.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:46:05 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-67-9.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:50:40 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-67-9.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:51:50 -!- k0001_ [~k0001@host190.181-1-200.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:52:08 -!- harish_ [~harish@119.234.163.93] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:54:57 -!- jrghigli` [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-34-152-29.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 04:56:01 ASau` [~user@p4FF96624.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 04:58:23 -!- JuanDaugherty [~Ren@cpe-76-180-168-166.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:59:26 -!- ASau [~user@p5797F0B7.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:00:41 -!- jaimef [jaimef@dns.mauthesis.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 05:03:51 -!- yacks [~py@103.6.159.103] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:04:52 ericmathison [~ericmathi@172-15-249-133.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:08:17 jaimef [jaimef@dns.mauthesis.com] has joined #lisp 05:13:03 -!- lyanchih [~lyanchih@114-34-99-241.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Quit: lyanchih] 05:13:19 TDog [~chatzilla@65.129.129.201] has joined #lisp 05:13:37 k0001 [~k0001@host188.190-138-110.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 05:13:42 -!- foreignFunction [~niksaak@ip-4761.sunline.net.ua] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:15:35 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 05:19:47 ianmcorvidae|alt [~ianmcorvi@musicbrainz/user/ianmcorvidae] has joined #lisp 05:21:04 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@musicbrainz/user/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 05:22:22 ejohnson [~Thunderbi@c-67-181-201-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:37:04 Tuxedo [~tuxedo@bas3-cooksville17-3096519109.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 05:37:14 'Morning. 05:41:34 -!- jack_rabbit [~jack_rabb@c-98-253-60-75.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:41:43 -!- ejohnson [~Thunderbi@c-67-181-201-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ejohnson] 05:42:05 Hello Tuxedo. 05:43:14 Howdy, beach. 05:43:14 angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has joined #lisp 05:44:10 Tuxedo: Are you working on any interesting Lisp projects? 05:46:36 lyanchih [~lyanchih@114-34-99-241.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 05:47:17 Not a whole lot of new development lately, no. 05:47:30 Fade and I are still maintaining an IRC bot written in Lisp, though. 05:47:48 -!- TDog [~chatzilla@65.129.129.201] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:48:44 And every so often I dust off some Project Euler problems to work on in Lisp. 05:48:54 How 'bout you? 05:49:05 Way too many :) 05:49:51 minion: Please tell Tuxedo about SICL. 05:49:51 Tuxedo: SICL: SICL is a (perhaps futile) attempt to re-implement Common Lisp from scratch, hopefully using improved programming and bootstrapping techniques. See https://github.com/robert-strandh/SICL 05:50:43 Tuxedo: Are you talking about this: http://projecteuler.net/ ? 05:50:48 there are plenty interesting Lisp projects! 05:51:02 beach: That's right. 05:51:27 Tuxedo: do you sell your bot to sex spammers? That's where the chat bot money is. 05:52:21 beach: do you have a README on general implementation philosophy / strategy? 05:52:58 Fare: No, sorry. The specification/documentation is fairly extensive, but there is no executive summary. Sorry! 05:53:20 Damn! Nobody told me there was money in 'bot smut! 05:53:49 Though our bot is sometimes saucy, it's by chance, not by intention. 05:53:56 Though it does write haikus on demand. 05:54:40 If we could get it to concentrate on filth, we could buff it up to writing limericks. 05:55:11 That sounds doable. 05:55:47 We've tried feeding it the text of Burroughs's _Naked Lunch_, alongside a few other subversive books. 05:56:01 But it's not reliably filthy, even then 05:56:02 . 05:56:06 harish_ [~harish@119.234.164.250] has joined #lisp 05:56:08 -!- xk05 [~xk05@c-98-244-43-125.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:58:27 Cool project, beach. 06:00:39 Thanks! 06:03:10 Tuxedo: I am also specifying/implementing CLIM3 (a successor to CLIM II), and I am thinking about re-implementing Climacs using CLIM3/CLIMatis. Then I have started preliminary work with tbmoore to create a version of Gsharp for the Nexus tablet. 06:03:19 Tuxedo: I could go on... :( 06:05:02 You're keepin' busy. 06:06:19 Definitely! 06:06:49 beach: Lisp-Unit. That reminds me of the horror of too many incompatible half-featured test systems 06:07:03 I can understand why ASDF has its own half-baked thing 06:07:05 Fare: Right. I am going to abandon it. 06:07:29 but come on, there should be one (or two?) decent systems 06:08:07 Fare: I have come to the conclusion that 1. Unit-test frameworks do fairly simple things so they are not needed, and 2. They are necessarily incomplete so you must use different strategies anyway. 06:08:53 -!- hiroakip [~hiroaki@p3E990B3D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 06:08:56 beach: oh, you do have native code backends!? 06:09:14 Fare: They are not complete, but I am working on two of them, yes. 06:10:07 Fare: For instance: In some cases I like random testing, i.e., I make a trivial and slow implementation that is "obviously" correct, and test a fast complicated implementation against it by generating random inputs. 06:10:59 no formal methods to prove the compiler correct? 06:11:05 Fare: I am thinking of using the ARM backend as "byte codes" with an emulator written in (say) C for platforms that have no native backend. 06:11:27 Fare: No, sorry. 06:12:07 ejohnson [~Thunderbi@c-67-181-201-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:12:34 Fare: The ARM backend is interesting because the ARM documentation comes with pseudo code to define the instructions, and that pseudo code is easy to translate to Lisp. 06:12:49 -!- ejohnson [~Thunderbi@c-67-181-201-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 06:15:52 beach: I'd like a layered series of CL-like dialects in Racket 06:16:12 a full CL, plus variants that have less runtime introspection or mutability 06:16:14 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@70.114.215.220] has quit [] 06:16:35 Fare: Why in Racket? 06:16:50 because it's a language-development platform 06:17:07 I see. 06:17:16 and it has future 06:17:57 so we can (1) salvage code (2) salvage the community (3) go forward (4) bring those pesky racketeers a few tricks they still don't have 06:18:20 Sounds like a plan! 06:19:16 not begun, tho 06:19:46 Hmm, yes, I see :) 06:20:03 mishoo [~mishoo@93.113.190.121] has joined #lisp 06:20:16 stepnem [~stepnem@internet2.cznet.cz] has joined #lisp 06:20:33 -!- harish_ [~harish@119.234.164.250] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:25:37 -!- nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:27:42 -!- Fare [fare@nat/google/x-dgdbreqbvhyfurss] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:28:32 -!- seg [~Thunderbi@71-80-164-69.dhcp.lnbh.ca.charter.com] has quit [Quit: seg] 06:28:47 drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has joined #lisp 06:30:42 supertano [supertano@net-2-39-23-50.cust.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 06:31:03 -!- supertano [supertano@net-2-39-23-50.cust.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Client Quit] 06:31:16 jrghigli` [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-34-250-229.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 06:33:28 -!- jrghigli` is now known as jrghiglia 06:33:59 -!- doomlord_ [~servitor@host109-151-64-15.range109-151.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:35:19 jeff280 [~Jeff@172.243.228.38] has joined #lisp 06:38:26 -!- seangrov` [~user@2600:1012:b023:27ce:1840:1c75:dee7:d33e] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:39:31 -!- jeff280 [~Jeff@172.243.228.38] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:41:35 beaumonta [~abeaumont@77.231.225.140] has joined #lisp 06:42:17 doesn't racket's future basically depend on research grants to certain individuals? 06:43:43 which is not to say it is particularly uncertain, just that I don't see how it's vastly more assured than any other "community" language implementation project's 06:44:02 -!- abeaumont [~abeaumont@77.231.225.194] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:45:50 -!- meiji11 [~user@75.158.41.148] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:46:51 edgar-rft [~GOD@HSI-KBW-109-193-013-113.hsi7.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 06:48:05 -!- bgs100 [~nitrogen@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: bgs100] 06:48:45 xk05 [~xk05@30.176-62-69.ftth.swbr.surewest.net] has joined #lisp 06:49:22 cmm: Good point! What makes you think what you say about research grants? 06:52:26 -!- lyanchih [~lyanchih@114-34-99-241.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Quit: lyanchih] 06:56:04 beach: a received notion that racket is this long-running academic project with no commertial entity behind it 06:56:28 which is corroborated by the content on their website, now that I'm checking my assumptions 06:57:08 (the "support" section of the "community" page, specifically) 06:57:29 Commercial entities die or are transformed. 06:57:56 Harlequin, Xerox, Symbolics, TI  there's no guarantee of anything no matter who or what is behind something. 07:00:59 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-172-154.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 07:01:41 nothing is forever, yes. but until I am shown convincing statistics saying that research grants in PL are more sustainable than proper business models, I'll continue to be of the opinion that racket is as ephemeral as any other "community" lispy language implementation, is all 07:02:49 jack_rabbit [~jack_rabb@c-98-253-60-75.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:02:54 -!- boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:03:29 boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 07:03:40 Perhaps the thing to look out for is when the main development is driven by grant-funded staff. Then, in effect, the project might die when funding dries up. 07:04:28 But if the project has a big "community" of volunteers, whose work does not depend on grant funding, it might still survive. 07:04:56 Common Lisp is definitely in the second category :) 07:05:28 FSVO "big" :) 07:05:38 Sure :) 07:07:41 -!- boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:08:58 boian [~boian@5.53.168.6] has joined #lisp 07:13:57 hiroakip [~hiroaki@132.176.221.197] has joined #lisp 07:17:09 -!- DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:17:26 -!- ericmathison [~ericmathi@172-15-249-133.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:17:30 shifty [~user@114-198-24-53.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 07:19:56 Well, clearly there's a simple way to deal with this problem in the context of Fare's proposed project. 07:20:19 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:20:23 Once the first Common-Lisp-in-Racket implementation is up and running, a Racket-in-Common-Lisp must be built. :) 07:20:50 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 07:21:29 turtle-based computing 07:21:36 Precisely! 07:24:57 Shinmera [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 07:27:04 DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has joined #lisp 07:27:47 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:29:04 But who computes the turtles? 07:30:01 the turtles are anonymous and are put in motion through a divine Y combinator 07:30:30 This one is too easy. 07:30:30 Munksgaard [~philip@80-71-132-106.u.parknet.dk] has joined #lisp 07:30:36 startups are always the answer 07:30:40 You implement a Logo interpreter in either Racket or Common Lisp. 07:30:51 The Logo interpeter provides all the turtles you can use 07:30:52 . 07:31:05 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 07:31:36 kiuma [~kiuma@2-230-138-74.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 07:37:40 -!- boian [~boian@5.53.168.6] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 07:38:16 boian [~boian@5.53.168.6] has joined #lisp 07:38:26 -!- boian [~boian@5.53.168.6] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:38:51 boian [~boian@5.53.168.6] has joined #lisp 07:43:27 Ryan_Burnside [~user@63-153-68-220.hlna.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 07:44:10 Can anyone help me find a library? I'd like to generate tones at specific frequencies. Thinking about a small music like program. 07:45:11 I think you'd rather want to go to a musical instruments store than a library, they're pretty hush-hush in there 07:45:53 dtw [~dtw@pdpc/supporter/active/dtw] has joined #lisp 07:45:55 I would ask for a *package* but this being the internet I'm not intereted in strangers' packages. 07:47:22 funny, that's one of the main selling points of the internet 07:47:51 tesuji [~tesuji@unaffiliated/tesuji] has joined #lisp 07:48:07 -!- synacktic [~jordyd@unaffiliated/jordyd] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:48:16 Ryan_Burnside: You can generate a sine wave with 1 multiplication and 1 addition per sample. It is pretty easy. 07:48:47 -!- jack_rabbit [~jack_rabb@c-98-253-60-75.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:51:43 -!- tesuji [~tesuji@unaffiliated/tesuji] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:52:28 jewel [~jewel@105-236-130-25.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 07:52:29 -!- nug700 [~nug700@209-181-102-38.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: bye] 08:01:41 -!- ZombieChicken [~weechat@unaffiliated/forgottenwizard] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.1] 08:03:00 -!- Ryan_Burnside [~user@63-153-68-220.hlna.qwest.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:03:02 -!- add^_ [~user@m176-70-201-126.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 08:04:57 -!- tolk` [~user@host183.200-82-114.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 08:05:56 -!- ianmcorvidae|alt is now known as ianmcorvidae 08:06:16 ggole [~ggole@106-69-19-121.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 08:06:24 ZombieChicken [~weechat@unaffiliated/forgottenwizard] has joined #lisp 08:06:42 -!- ZombieChicken [~weechat@unaffiliated/forgottenwizard] has quit [Client Quit] 08:07:11 ZombieChicken [~weechat@unaffiliated/forgottenwizard] has joined #lisp 08:08:48 namccarty [~namccarty@74-131-94-214.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 08:09:41 -!- ZombieChicken [~weechat@unaffiliated/forgottenwizard] has quit [Client Quit] 08:13:54 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Excess Flood] 08:14:01 ZombieChicken [~weechat@ip70-189-239-148.lv.lv.cox.net] has joined #lisp 08:14:59 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 08:16:40 acow [~acow@ppp59-167-142-182.static.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 08:22:03 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 08:23:28 A curious question lispers....is there a simple way to copy a function obect? 08:23:55 what does that mean and why? 08:24:04 hah, thought that might be the response 08:24:17 so if i write (lambda (x) (+ x 1)) 08:24:39 and store what that returns somewhere.... 08:24:50 is there a way to then make a copy of it. 08:24:56 as for why... 08:25:05 it does not make sense to make a copy, it is immutable 08:25:06 I believe the answer would be intellectual shits and giggles. 08:25:59 now, i can see copying closures, which can be done just by creating a new closure 08:26:16 i was going to say...what about closures.... 08:26:26 I've got a function that returns a function.... 08:26:41 and i can always run that function twice to produce two "identical" functions... 08:27:30 and i appreciate I'm not necessarily being very nice or practical here....but can i try to copy the object that got spat out of the "function factory" the first time, rather than calling the function factory again... 08:27:38 does such a concept even make sense? 08:27:42 if it's not a closure... it'll be the same function......... 08:28:12 and if it is a closure, so my original function is a function that returns closures? 08:28:18 you can't and shouldn't copy functions 08:28:18 <|3b|> making an independent copy of a closure sounds messy, depending on how you define that 08:28:39 It sounds ghastly, i agree :P 08:28:48 <|3b|> would you make up some arbitrary environment for NLX to go to for example? 08:29:02 I just thought of it as an intellectual exercise when I was making such a thing.... 08:29:10 <|3b|> ("NLX" as in non-local exit) 08:29:14 just use structures or classes 08:29:44 <|3b|> you could return funcallable instances for which you have defined a copy operation 08:30:00 klltkr [~klltkr@unaffiliated/klltkr] has joined #lisp 08:30:13 doesn't have to be funcallable instances (which requires mop) 08:31:00 closures are just functions with some state attached, you can have a function and an object instead 08:31:31 <|3b|> yeah, separating the state would probably be the best option 08:31:49 mmmm....upon thinking about it its probably a very poorly defined problem.... 08:31:57 ...... 08:32:03 not enough dots... 08:32:53 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ho1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 08:35:21 -!- hiyosi_ [~skip_it@247.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.1] 08:35:28 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 08:36:15 pgomes [~pgomes@178-24-45-128-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 08:37:15 -!- eigenlicht [~eigenlich@unaffiliated/eigenlicht] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 08:38:53 hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@46.233.237.89] has joined #lisp 08:39:32 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 08:39:42 weie [~eie@softbank221078042071.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 08:40:13 hitecnologys_ [~hitecnolo@94.137.10.197] has joined #lisp 08:42:28 -!- pgomes [~pgomes@178-24-45-128-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:43:02 -!- hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@46.233.237.89] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:43:53 prxq [~mommer@x2f68ed6.dyn.telefonica.de] has joined #lisp 08:44:06 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@2-230-138-74.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:46:57 matko [~matko@ip82-139-127-72.lijbrandt.net] has joined #lisp 08:47:39 -!- xk05 [~xk05@30.176-62-69.ftth.swbr.surewest.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:48:28 -!- klltkr [~klltkr@unaffiliated/klltkr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:52:17 -!- hitecnologys_ is now known as hitecnologys 08:55:00 ndrei [~avo@83.142.149.227] has joined #lisp 08:55:16 -!- acow [~acow@ppp59-167-142-182.static.internode.on.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:55:48 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ho1.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:57:25 -!- k0001 [~k0001@host188.190-138-110.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:04:46 MrWoohoo [~MrWoohoo@pool-74-100-140-127.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 09:04:49 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-89-145.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 09:09:52 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-67-9.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 09:12:08 Karl_dscc [~localhost@p5DD9CC84.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 09:18:17 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 09:18:25 drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has joined #lisp 09:20:07 zacts [~user@unaffiliated/zacts] has joined #lisp 09:20:20 kiuma [~kiuma@static-217-133-17-91.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 09:26:19 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-67-9.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 09:27:43 -!- weie [~eie@softbank221078042071.bbtec.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 09:33:14 Is there a common lisp function that will take a predicate and return a function that is the negation of the input predicate? 09:33:30 (lambda (&rest args) (not apply predicate args)) 09:33:30 clhs complement 09:33:30 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_comple.htm 09:33:34 Awesome. 09:34:48 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@static-217-133-17-91.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:37:50 -!- desophos [~desophos@n132h78.dhcp.oxy.edu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:39:19 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 09:44:32 ln [~eV@84.233.246.170] has joined #lisp 09:44:56 lyanchih [~lyanchih@114-34-99-241.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 09:46:07 davazp [~user@92.251.197.226.threembb.ie] has joined #lisp 09:47:30 -!- ln [~eV@84.233.246.170] has left #lisp 09:50:20 -!- lyanchih [~lyanchih@114-34-99-241.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Quit: lyanchih] 09:54:16 stassats: all it does is just (not (foo)), right? 09:54:44 stassats: I mean complement. 10:01:28 -!- drmeist__ [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-58.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:01:49 alezost [~user@128-70-203-58.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 10:02:05 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-58.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 10:02:07 l_ [~l_@84.233.246.170] has joined #lisp 10:04:16 -!- l_ [~l_@84.233.246.170] has left #lisp 10:06:26 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-58.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:12:45 No, that wouldn't allow the argument to complement to take arguments. 10:14:59 SamSkulls [~user@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 10:19:22 -!- boian [~boian@5.53.168.6] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 10:19:28 Yeah, I actually meant #'(lambda (&rest args) (not (apply foo args))). 10:19:55 boian [~boian@5.53.168.6] has joined #lisp 10:23:50 -!- boian [~boian@5.53.168.6] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:32:17 -!- namccarty [~namccarty@74-131-94-214.dhcp.insightbb.com] has left #lisp 10:32:21 bitonic` [~user@xdsl-188-155-179-93.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 10:32:36 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-58.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 10:35:25 -!- ehaliewicz [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 10:36:12 eigenlicht [~eigenlich@unaffiliated/eigenlicht] has joined #lisp 10:40:55 When I say: 10:41:24 (declaim (ftype (function typeA typeB typeC) name)) 10:41:50 If I put list @ typeA, does that then refer to the elements of the list as being lists themselves? 10:42:10 Implying that when I call the function the first argument is a list. 10:42:39 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-58.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 10:46:26 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:46:29 that's not a legal function specifier, it's (function arg-types result-types) 10:46:43 Yes that is correct. 10:47:00 Given your fix though; will arg-types refer to a list in and of itself, or it's elements? 10:47:36 arg-types is not a type, it would be an arg-type specifier, a list of required and optional parameters 10:48:20 (declaim (ftype (function (list) integer) fn)) 10:48:31 (defun fn (list) list) 10:48:33 the first and only argument is declared to be a list 10:48:34 (fn '(a b c)) 10:48:41 That makes sense? 10:48:49 Okay. 10:50:23 boian [~boian@5.53.168.6] has joined #lisp 10:53:25 -!- davazp [~user@92.251.197.226.threembb.ie] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 10:57:02 -!- boian [~boian@5.53.168.6] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:59:28 -!- echo-area [~user@nat/yahoo/x-aktsdraaibmjveeo] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:01:04 -!- danlentz [~danlentz@c-68-37-70-235.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:01:10 -!- Karl_dscc [~localhost@p5DD9CC84.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:01:39 eaumontab [~abeaumont@77.231.225.56] has joined #lisp 11:03:14 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:03:23 nello [~nello@93-44-86-187.ip96.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 11:03:28 -!- beaumonta [~abeaumont@77.231.225.140] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:03:38 -!- nello [~nello@93-44-86-187.ip96.fastwebnet.it] has left #lisp 11:04:27 varnie 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[~user@dynamic-adsl-94-34-250-229.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:44:21 -!- petrounias [~petrounia@ppp-2-85-25-221.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:44:43 -!- eaumontab [~abeaumont@77.231.255.217] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 11:45:34 stnly [~stnly@alpha.stnly.com] has joined #lisp 11:47:36 cmack`` [~charlie@adsl-74-179-29-98.bna.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 11:47:39 -!- ASau` is now known as ASau 11:48:07 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 11:48:50 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-48-8.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:50:08 -!- cmack` [~charlie@adsl-74-179-30-178.bna.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:50:16 petrounias [~petrounia@ppp-2-85-25-221.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 11:52:26 Hi, I seem not to be able to do simple recursion with sbcl 11:53:16 my problem is summed up here: http://pastebin.com/THNdscL0 11:54:50 it says that nilp is an undefined function 11:54:58 I think you want null 11:55:39 (null nil) ==> T (null (list 1 2 3)) ==> NIL 11:55:54 GuilOooo: ooops, thank you 11:55:55 -!- joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@086.112-30-64.ftth.swbr.surewest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:57:57 with null, your code seems to work with sbcl :) 11:58:08 foreignFunction [~niksaak@ip-4761.sunline.net.ua] has joined #lisp 11:58:32 yeah it does 11:58:44 I can't see why I wrote nilp in the first place :/ 11:59:38 Nilp is from mocklisp, iirc 12:00:07 -!- Munksgaard [~philip@80-71-132-106.u.parknet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:00:27 -!- aumontabe [~abeaumont@77.231.255.79] has quit [Ping timeout: 253 seconds] 12:01:06 I guess I mistook it with symbolp 12:02:41 when I was starting lisp I learnt that predicates have the -p suffix, so I looked up for nilp or nullp functions 12:03:01 I seemed more natural to me than null 12:03:32 pavelpenev [~quassel@130-204-14-33.2075264485.ddns.cablebg.net] has joined #lisp 12:04:11 Yeah, some predicates (atom is another) depart from the usual conventions 12:04:23 Mostly for historical reasons, I think 12:05:33 aumontabe [~abeaumont@77.231.225.206] has joined #lisp 12:05:34 to keep compatibility with older lisps? 12:06:06 That, or just because people were used to the existing names 12:10:41 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:15:51 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 12:16:03 nilsi_ [~nilsi@61.35.138.205] has joined #lisp 12:17:47 boian [~boian@5.53.168.6] has joined #lisp 12:20:26 hiyosi [~skip_it@247.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has joined #lisp 12:25:05 bobbysmith007: hi, are you the github user of the same name, one of https://github.com/AccelerationNet/cl-csv authors? if yes, I just opened a pull request against that lib and am available here to chat about it, thanks ;-) 12:27:18 Karl_dscc [~localhost@p5DD9CC84.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 12:32:34 TDog 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has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:57:48 -!- TDog [~chatzilla@65.129.129.201] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:58:29 -!- ln [~ln@84.233.246.170] has left #lisp 12:58:35 hitecnologys_ [~hitecnolo@109.120.4.164] has joined #lisp 12:59:28 -!- hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@94.137.10.197] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:04:00 davazp [~user@92.251.166.227.threembb.ie] has joined #lisp 13:08:55 Nuupi [~IceChat9@a91-154-110-47.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 13:10:20 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 13:10:56 -!- jrghiglia [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-34-250-229.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:10:56 STilda [~AlexandrK@188.162.167.42] has joined #lisp 13:11:05 Is there a way to test if two lists with symbols (like (list :a 1 :b2)) are equal *without* taking into account the order of the symbols? For example, I want (list :a 1 :b 2) and (list :b 2 :a 1) to be equal. 13:12:23 aumontabe [~abeaumont@77.231.225.55] has joined #lisp 13:15:24 normanrichards [~normanric@70.114.215.220] has joined #lisp 13:17:01 For each key-value pair in list1, look up that key in list2 and test the corresponding values for equality 13:17:16 If that test passes, check they are the same length. 13:17:38 eskatrem: You could use set operations. Like checking that list 1, list 2, and the union of the two are all the same length. 13:18:19 Lists are a poor data structure for this operation if there are many values. 13:18:38 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:18:58 ggole: thanks, I could implement such a function, but I my question was more directed if such a function already existed 13:19:33 *|3b|* would probably just convert them to hash tables (with alexandria:plist-hash-table)and compare with equalp 13:19:46 <|3b|> assuming equalp was OK for the values 13:19:57 jrghiglia [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-34-250-229.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 13:20:19 Will equalp do the right thing for hash tables? 13:20:28 beach: yeah, and then looping for each key to see if the corresponding values are the same in list1 and list2 13:20:52 |3b|: yeah thanks, that's the fastest to do 13:21:03 eskatrem: Yeah, it gets messy if keys and values can be the same. 13:21:26 beach: you mean something like (list :a :a :b :b) ? 13:21:28 yurk 13:21:33 Right. 13:21:50 If you don't have that situation, doing the union thing is enough I think. 13:22:10 I *won't* have that situation 13:22:11 -!- Karl_dscc [~localhost@p5DD9CC84.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:22:17 <|3b|> beach: would that catch keys with values swapped between the lists? 13:22:19 clhs set-exclusive-or 13:22:19 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_set_ex.htm 13:22:36 |3b|: Hmm, no I guess not :( 13:22:40 That doesn't sound right, how would it tell between (:a 1 :b 2) and (:b 1 :a 2)? 13:22:45 Right, what he said 13:22:46 just writing a board game and I chose to implement the squares like (:x 1 :y 2) 13:23:07 *|3b|* would suggest better data structure in that case 13:23:07 ggole: indeed. 13:23:24 eskatrem, https://gist.github.com/burrows-labs/6949986 13:23:41 <|3b|> for 2 element lists, comparing by hand would probably be faster than making hash tables 13:23:47 <|3b|> *plists 13:24:16 is this (list :a 1 :b 2) a plist? 13:24:23 Sounds like they should be defstructs 13:24:36 <|3b|> a plist is a list like that (other way doesn't have to be true though) 13:25:05 OT, I remember having read on HN a post saying that the #lisp of freenode was unhelpful, but it's clearly not the case 13:25:12 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-58.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:25:22 <|3b|> depends on who is awake and how you interact with it :/ 13:25:41 <|3b|> and your definition of 'helpful' 13:25:50 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-58.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:26:08 <|3b|> some people don't like some forms of help 13:26:26 |3b|: (type-of (list :a 1 :b 2)) 13:26:35 I get: CONS 13:26:38 <|3b|> right 13:26:46 <|3b|> all lists are of type CONS or NULL 13:27:13 A plist is some agreed-upon structure on top of cons cells, rather than an explicit type 13:27:14 <|3b|> which is one reason you can't say for sure that list is a plist 13:27:25 hmm... from your comment about plists, I thought plist were a different kind of list, but the interpreter doesn't see the difference 13:27:30 danlentz [~danlentz@c-68-37-70-235.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:27:33 <|3b|> it is also a list of 4 elements, and an alist with 1 key/value pair 13:27:41 -!- oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-173-25.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 13:27:45 how do I explicitely create a plist then? 13:27:50 -!- davazp [~user@92.251.166.227.threembb.ie] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:27:56 <|3b|> a plist is just a list with alternating keys and values 13:28:01 oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-162-148.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 13:28:02 Just like you've been doing 13:28:14 <|3b|> (list 1 2 3 4) could be a plist 13:28:54 hmm, ok. (getf (list 1 2 3 4) 1) 13:29:09 so a plist is just a list that happens to have an even length 13:29:14 *|3b|* is actually wrong about (list :a 1 :b 2) being an alist i think 13:29:17 <|3b|> right 13:30:21 drmeiste_ [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-58.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:30:51 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-58.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 13:31:24 assoc won't be happy with it, at least 13:32:43 bananagram [~bot@c-76-30-158-226.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:34:04 Munksgaard [~philip@80-71-132-106.u.parknet.dk] has joined #lisp 13:34:07 so actually, I have 3 solutions: use a special structure, implement my own equal-plist function, and use hash-maps 13:34:28 loke` [~user@2400:d803:7342:f91a:dd62:df93:2e29:784] has joined #lisp 13:38:45 If you aren't sure, use accessors so that you can change your mind easily. 13:39:14 (Often a good idea anyway.) 13:39:58 what's the most portable way to handle-case a call to aref? 13:39:59 ggole: accessors being plists? 13:39:59 -!- aumontabe [~abeaumont@77.231.225.55] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 13:40:22 just handling an (error (err) ...) would do it? 13:40:28 jrghiglia: "handle-case"? 13:40:33 <|3b|> eskatrem: "accessor" as in a function that hides the implementation so you can change it later without changing the callers 13:40:47 yes against out-of-bounds errors 13:40:57 jrghiglia: How about IF? 13:41:41 |3b|: AAAAHHHHH 13:41:47 jrghiglia: that't the only portable way. Accessing an array out of bounds in udenfined behaviour 13:41:53 yeah, it's better 13:42:11 that's what I thought 13:42:21 same thing with sbit I think 13:43:21 found a piece of code in cells that resizes a bit array only when an out-of-bounds error is signalled 13:43:38 -!- Shinmera [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 13:45:22 Shinmera [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 13:48:04 davazp [~user@92.251.167.125.threembb.ie] has joined #lisp 13:53:38 -!- STilda [~AlexandrK@188.162.167.42] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:54:28 jrghiglia: not safe. If you're on SAFETY 0 I'm prettys ure that SBCL will happy overrun allocated memory 13:54:34 STilda [~AlexandrK@188.162.167.42] has joined #lisp 13:59:06 dcguru [~chatzilla@66.129.60.130] has joined #lisp 13:59:33 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@70.114.215.220] has quit [] 14:00:14 -!- varnie [~varnie@v-60445-unlim.vpn.mgn.ru] has quit [Quit: "Koldbrann" means "gangrene"] 14:00:29 aumontabe [~abeaumont@77.231.225.166] has joined #lisp 14:00:55 and did not work either, at least in ccl 14:01:00 -!- cachem0ney [~cachem0ne@l33t.csail.mit.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:01:31 -!- STilda [~AlexandrK@188.162.167.42] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 14:02:17 STilda [~AlexandrK@188.162.167.42] has joined #lisp 14:05:19 -!- nialo [~nialo@ool-44c53f01.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 14:06:57 Sagane [~Sagane@177.100-226-89.dsl.completel.net] has joined #lisp 14:16:05 joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@086.112-30-64.ftth.swbr.surewest.net] has joined #lisp 14:16:14 -!- nilsi_ [~nilsi@61.35.138.205] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:16:34 -!- ASau [~user@p4FF96624.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:19:12 nilsi_ [~nilsi@61.35.138.205] has joined #lisp 14:20:18 ASau [~user@p4FF96624.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 14:21:01 -!- STilda [~AlexandrK@188.162.167.42] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:21:01 -!- weie [~eie@softbank221078042071.bbtec.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 14:21:50 STilda [~AlexandrK@188.162.167.42] has joined #lisp 14:22:12 zulu_inuoe [~quassel@71.47.78.155] has joined #lisp 14:27:06 -!- nilsi_ [~nilsi@61.35.138.205] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:30:03 nilsi_ [~nilsi@61.35.138.205] has joined #lisp 14:30:25 boian [~boian@5.53.168.6] has joined #lisp 14:31:38 -!- dcguru [~chatzilla@66.129.60.130] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:33:49 cmack``` [~charlie@adsl-74-179-25-186.bna.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 14:35:33 -!- cmack`` [~charlie@adsl-74-179-29-98.bna.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:35:39 TDog [~chatzilla@75-164-9-244.tcso.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 14:36:14 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 14:40:30 -!- ZombieChicken [~weechat@ip70-189-239-148.lv.lv.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:44:37 -!- sirdancealot [~sirdancea@194.228.11.188] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:47:07 -!- STilda [~AlexandrK@188.162.167.42] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 14:47:13 synacktic [~jordyd@unaffiliated/jordyd] has joined #lisp 14:47:58 STilda [~AlexandrK@188.162.167.42] has joined #lisp 14:53:00 -!- boian [~boian@5.53.168.6] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 14:53:33 boian [~boian@5.53.168.6] has joined #lisp 14:53:41 doomlord_ [~servitor@host109-151-64-15.range109-151.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 14:58:15 -!- boian [~boian@5.53.168.6] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 14:58:38 -!- STilda [~AlexandrK@188.162.167.42] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:58:54 STilda [~AlexandrK@188.162.167.42] has joined #lisp 14:59:20 -!- joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@086.112-30-64.ftth.swbr.surewest.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:59:47 joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@086.112-30-64.ftth.swbr.surewest.net] has joined #lisp 15:01:21 bgs100 [~nitrogen@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 15:07:23 -!- petrounias [~petrounia@ppp-2-85-25-221.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:08:10 hiroakip [~hiroaki@ip-178-202-201-114.unitymediagroup.de] has joined #lisp 15:10:23 petrounias [~petrounia@ppp-2-85-25-221.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 15:11:31 -!- joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@086.112-30-64.ftth.swbr.surewest.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:12:16 joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@086.112-30-64.ftth.swbr.surewest.net] has joined #lisp 15:15:29 -!- joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@086.112-30-64.ftth.swbr.surewest.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:15:41 joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@086.112-30-64.ftth.swbr.surewest.net] has joined #lisp 15:17:31 -!- STilda [~AlexandrK@188.162.167.42] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:17:45 STilda [~AlexandrK@188.162.167.42] has joined #lisp 15:20:24 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:22:10 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 15:22:20 is there a non-destructive sort in the standard? 15:22:43 No, but you can copy the sequence before sorting. 15:23:21 -!- hiroakip [~hiroaki@ip-178-202-201-114.unitymediagroup.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:24:06 boian [~boian@5.53.168.6] has joined #lisp 15:24:22 (mapcar #'car (sort (copy-tree colspecs) #'< :key #'cdr)) is what I'm doing now 15:24:34 if feels like I'm missing something simpler 15:25:11 copy-list should do. SORT only destroys the top-level CONSes. 15:25:36 -!- davazp [~user@92.251.167.125.threembb.ie] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:26:58 -!- joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@086.112-30-64.ftth.swbr.surewest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:29:58 -!- petrounias [~petrounia@ppp-2-85-25-221.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:30:18 apfel__ [~apfel@p5499BDAE.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 15:30:28 petrounias [~petrounia@ppp-2-85-25-221.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 15:30:28 -!- boian [~boian@5.53.168.6] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:31:54 -!- STilda [~AlexandrK@188.162.167.42] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:32:34 STilda [~AlexandrK@188.162.167.42] has joined #lisp 15:34:26 -!- apfel_ [~apfel@p5499ADCE.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:36:17 -!- em is now known as qman 15:37:58 -!- qman is now known as em 15:38:52 -!- hitecnologys_ [~hitecnolo@109.120.4.164] has quit [Quit: hitecnologys_] 15:39:07 Fare [~fare@cpe-69-203-115-132.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:39:24 slarti [~anonymous@104-252-AGAVEBB-NM.abq.nm.agavebb.net] has joined #lisp 15:40:59 -!- rtoym [~chatzilla@24.130.4.105] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:41:17 wws [~billstcla@p-74-209-19-175.dsl1.rtr.chat.fpma.frpt.net] has joined #lisp 15:42:03 arnas [arnsa@78-63-18-208.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 15:42:11 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:43:16 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 15:44:08 killerboy [~mateusz@staticline-31-183-61-68.toya.net.pl] has joined #lisp 15:44:55 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:45:50 -!- aumontabe [~abeaumont@77.231.225.166] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:45:55 neoncortex [~neoncorte@unaffiliated/xispirito] has joined #lisp 15:47:17 -!- Munksgaard [~philip@80-71-132-106.u.parknet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:48:14 rrs [~rrs@c-24-128-48-55.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:49:15 -!- zulu_inuoe [~quassel@71.47.78.155] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:53:08 iAran [~whimse@58.101.24.47] has joined #lisp 15:54:17 -!- iAran [~whimse@58.101.24.47] has quit [Client Quit] 16:01:35 -!- STilda [~AlexandrK@188.162.167.42] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 16:01:37 -!- rrs [~rrs@c-24-128-48-55.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:01:55 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-67-9.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:02:00 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-67-9.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 16:02:33 STilda [~AlexandrK@188.162.167.42] has joined #lisp 16:03:46 nialo [~nialo@ool-44c53f01.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 16:04:14 -!- petrounias [~petrounia@ppp-2-85-25-221.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:05:12 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-172-154.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:10:16 LiamH [~none@pool-173-73-122-143.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:10:33 petrounias [~petrounia@ppp-2-85-25-221.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 16:12:01 -!- STilda [~AlexandrK@188.162.167.42] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:12:33 STilda [~AlexandrK@188.162.167.42] has joined #lisp 16:18:50 -!- nilsi_ [~nilsi@61.35.138.205] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:19:27 nilsi_ [~nilsi@61.35.138.205] has joined #lisp 16:20:18 cmm: Questioning the survivability of an academic project vs commercial ones is definitely not really something that should be done from a _CL_ point of view. 16:20:27 Not without risking huge waves of ironic karma. 16:21:14 -!- STilda [~AlexandrK@188.162.167.42] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:22:07 STilda [~AlexandrK@188.162.167.42] has joined #lisp 16:24:39 -!- nilsi_ [~nilsi@61.35.138.205] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 16:25:20 aumontabe [~abeaumont@77.231.255.10] has joined #lisp 16:25:49 :) 16:25:56 eli: hi 16:26:02 you here? 16:26:40 Fare: Yeah, for some value of "here"... 16:26:45 :) 16:26:58 is there a lisp-n in racket? 16:27:15 or other language with multiple namespaces? 16:27:42 IIRC, Carl had that, and IIRC, the main difficulty was to make it work with macros. 16:27:50 how would I go about implementing one? 16:27:58 normanrichards [~normanric@mobile-166-147-067-195.mycingular.net] has joined #lisp 16:28:10 yes, wth hygienic macros, of course 16:28:10 Just doing a 2-namespace with some hack should really not be too hard. 16:28:14 shridhar [Shridhar@nat/redhat/x-aaqodvxvcgprexsb] has joined #lisp 16:28:42 nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 16:28:44 I don't want a shadowing of fun:a to shadow var:a 16:28:51 For the quick hacky way, you'd redefine the #%app macro, so that (foo x y z) expands to (|foo function| x y z) 16:28:57 a trivial hack would be such prefixes 16:29:09 I think that that should work fine enough. 16:29:41 It would also be helpful, since something that I suggested a while ago, and Matthew thought it might be good is a concept of sub-namespaces. 16:29:58 The idea is something that would allow making up a `setf' in Racket. 16:30:00 weie [~eie@softbank221078042071.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 16:30:05 then type:a, block:a, tag:a, etc. 16:30:27 I did that in swindle, but using the same kind of hack, where (set! (f x) y) expands to (set-f! x y). 16:30:28 maybe #racket? 16:30:45 it's about implememting cl 16:30:54 stassats: Normally I'd agree, but in this case (what Fare said)... 16:31:15 impulse [~impulse@bas3-toronto48-1176313892.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 16:31:43 Fare: In any case, there are some cases where rebinding the name should also "rebind" the sub-identifier, which is what you'd probably want in the setf case 16:32:06 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has left #lisp 16:32:09 That is, if I have `car' renamed as `kar', I'd also want (set! (kar ...) ...) to work. 16:32:28 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@bzq-79-182-131-40.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 16:32:35 and if I want to have composable blocks, say, to take the eq predicates as parameter (CL-compliant one vs Racket ones), I need to use (shudder) units? 16:32:40 And the same holds for a function namespace -- but I think that neither would be CL-like 16:33:15 What do you mean? (FWIW, I've never used units, so you probably know more about them than I do...) 16:33:52 and if I want to export bindings as runtime-accessible "symbols", I "just" need to wrap the unit around something that does that? 16:34:01 -!- weie [~eie@softbank221078042071.bbtec.net] has quit [Client Quit] 16:34:52 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-171-235.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 16:34:58 I'm not sure how units are related, yet; but with my original idea, if you provide `foo' you also get its sub-ids, the one for set! for what I wanted, and the function value for a 2-lisp implementation. 16:35:15 problem being, I might also want the direct call vs indirect call to be a parameter (though maybe not: CL accepts that if/when you rebind a CL function (if you can), it might not change the semantics of other functions) 16:35:30 units: because I want a family of CL-like languages 16:35:49 in one of them EQ doesn't distinguish between '() #f 'NIL 16:36:07 Adding any kind of parameter in code that deals with function calls is going to have bad runtime results. 16:36:09 lyanchih [~lyanchih@114-34-99-241.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 16:36:12 in another, it does 16:36:25 in yet another, it does, but some other magic equates them 16:36:35 For that kind of thing, you can often find a solution using syntax parameters, so there's no runtime costs. 16:37:12 ok for syntax parameters - but how do I organize the code so it can be instantiated many times with different parameters... in the same image? 16:37:13 Also, for the family of languages -- units would be one way to do that, but especially for a family of *languages*, just using the module system should be fine... 16:37:53 Using the module system means that each language has its own view, including its own tweaks of things that are common-but-slightly-different for each language. 16:37:58 well, the user interface would use modules. But internally, to share code, aren't units necessary? 16:38:42 No, you'd just have a bunch of code that is the (configurable) implementation, and then the languages would all use it with specific customizations. 16:39:10 IOW, units become just another strategy for sharing the common code, and therefore it's still as unpopular as it usually is... 16:39:41 BTW, I did roughly that for swindle -- there's a few languages there that go in increments from just the language extensions up to the full clos-like thing. 16:40:09 I considered doing the 2-lisp thing too, but since it's something that I never liked it wasn't enough of an itch for me to scratch. 16:42:30 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:46:11 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-89-145.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 16:46:28 kontrolloren [~kontrollo@37.215.9.46.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 16:47:13 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@mobile-166-147-067-195.mycingular.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:48:27 -!- ASau [~user@p4FF96624.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 16:49:13 can racket instantiate a module twice, each time with a different configuration? 16:50:08 normanrichards [~normanric@mobile-166-147-067-195.mycingular.net] has joined #lisp 16:50:42 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:50:51 ASau [~user@p4FF96624.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 16:53:24 eli: I was not taking shots, so no need to waste karma on me :) 16:56:20 jtza8 [~jtza8@105.236.89.145] has joined #lisp 16:56:46 jangle [~jimmy1984@pool-173-67-27-249.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:56:46 eli: yeah, there might be covariant namespaces: type:foo class:foo condition:foo struct:foo actually go together, and so does fun:foo setf-fun:foo mac:foo setf-mac:foo 17:00:49 hiroakip [~hiroaki@ip-178-202-201-114.unitymediagroup.de] has joined #lisp 17:02:08 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-171-235.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:07:08 -!- beach [~user@ABordeaux-651-1-226-165.w83-193.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 17:07:26 -!- nialo [~nialo@ool-44c53f01.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:07:29 k0001 [~k0001@host188.190-138-110.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 17:13:15 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@mobile-166-147-067-195.mycingular.net] has quit [] 17:13:25 -!- STilda [~AlexandrK@188.162.167.42] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:13:45 STilda [~AlexandrK@188.162.167.42] has joined #lisp 17:15:19 -!- petrounias [~petrounia@ppp-2-85-25-221.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:15:40 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 17:20:08 -!- STilda [~AlexandrK@188.162.167.42] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:20:39 petrounias [~petrounia@ppp-2-85-25-221.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 17:20:55 STilda [~AlexandrK@188.162.167.42] has joined #lisp 17:25:36 -!- STilda [~AlexandrK@188.162.167.42] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:26:09 STilda [~AlexandrK@188.162.167.42] has joined #lisp 17:27:12 nialo [~nialo@ool-44c53f01.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 17:28:21 -!- surrounder [~surrounde@095-096-032-026.static.chello.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:29:01 surrounder_ [~surrounde@095-096-032-026.static.chello.nl] has joined #lisp 17:30:01 cmm: The irony is the important part; Lisp is probably the best example of how commercial language environments don't survive. 17:30:17 Fare: Yes, all of those are candidates too, of course. 17:31:24 Fare: As for the module instantiation question -- normally (without meta-hacks) a module would get a single instance, but it sounds like you're talking about some kind of configuration that I haven't thought about, since I don't see any need for anything unit-like... 17:31:26 rtoym [~chatzilla@24.130.4.105] has joined #lisp 17:34:13 -!- lyanchih [~lyanchih@114-34-99-241.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Quit: lyanchih] 17:35:12 drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has joined #lisp 17:37:30 f-a [~f-a@adsl-ull-2-232.46-151.net24.it] has joined #lisp 17:40:45 ejohnson [~Thunderbi@c-67-181-201-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:42:39 -!- surrounder_ is now known as surrounder 17:42:50 -!- STilda [~AlexandrK@188.162.167.42] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:43:28 STilda [~AlexandrK@188.162.167.42] has joined #lisp 17:43:40 eli: the hideously-expensive ones do, apparently! 17:45:09 I suspect that being hideously-expensive is a byproduct of older companies that can't move to the new world. (Ie, where people realize that the single worst thing you can do for a language is put a price tag on it.) 17:47:41 I suspect Cobol implementors make out all right. 17:50:19 :) 17:52:28 -!- drmeiste_ [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-58.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:53:04 drmeiste_ [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-58.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:56:12 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 17:56:29 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@2-230-138-74.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:57:02 -!- drmeiste_ [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-58.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:58:23 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@dsl-hkibrasgw3-58c156-108.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 18:01:35 -!- edgar-rft [~GOD@HSI-KBW-109-193-013-113.hsi7.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Quit: continuation corrupted by universal vacuum] 18:06:43 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-171-235.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 18:06:55 -!- petrounias [~petrounia@ppp-2-85-25-221.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:09:16 -!- haz1 [~haz@97e08ffb.skybroadband.com] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.1] 18:10:09 -!- impulse [~impulse@bas3-toronto48-1176313892.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:10:47 petrounias [~petrounia@ppp-2-85-25-221.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 18:11:00 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@50-196-148-101-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 18:13:44 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-67-9.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:13:52 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-67-9.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 18:17:22 corni [~corni@drupal.org/user/136353/view] has joined #lisp 18:18:51 -!- STilda [~AlexandrK@188.162.167.42] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:19:09 STilda [~AlexandrK@188.162.167.42] has joined #lisp 18:19:26 -!- aumontabe [~abeaumont@77.231.255.10] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:19:37 -!- STilda [~AlexandrK@188.162.167.42] has quit [Client Quit] 18:22:07 Ryan_Burnside [~ryan@63-153-68-220.hlna.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 18:22:57 Good everyone. 18:24:21 Is it possible to obtain a list of an instances attributes with the CLOS? I'm thinking about a small LTK editor that can pop up and have fields for my instances during runtime for adjustments. 18:25:32 implementing cobol is its own punishment 18:25:46 Ryan_Burnside: if by attributes you mean slots, then yes, with clos 18:25:46 -!- cmack``` is now known as cmack 18:26:02 Slots, yes Bike. 18:26:24 Ryan_Burnside: quickload "closer-mop" and take a look at the function closer-mop:class-slots 18:26:52 @Fare I used to work in an IBM "shop" at an insurance company. It was COBOL and RPGIII all the way down. 18:27:09 and googling for "clos amop" should fetch you some readable introductory materials, should you need any 18:27:24 Thanks cmm. 18:27:53 Odd and powerful ideas are often so easily done with Lisp. 18:28:19 that's just introspection, nothing odd about it 18:28:55 -!- f-a [~f-a@adsl-ull-2-232.46-151.net24.it] has left #lisp 18:29:12 I recall trying to do the same thing with Python, was told it wasn't easily fesable. 18:30:18 really? I thought slots are basically hash entries in python (but I don't know python)? 18:31:01 Perhaps the issue was that it's easy to find out what slots an object has in Python, but you can decorate up any object with new slots, so getting the slots from a class is harder? 18:31:09 drmeiste_ [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-58.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:31:23 I believe finding the actual slot names is the problem. 18:31:26 Don't totally recall. 18:31:28 normanrichards [~normanric@rrcs-108-178-120-144.sw.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:32:35 seangrove [~user@2600:1012:b020:7b6e:4d0c:84d0:ae3e:d6a5] has joined #lisp 18:33:28 -!- jangle [~jimmy1984@pool-173-67-27-249.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: jangle] 18:34:52 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:37:28 -!- petrounias [~petrounia@ppp-2-85-25-221.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:39:45 jangle 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joined #lisp 20:50:39 -!- willyfrog [~willyfrog@146.255.102.14.gigas.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:53:46 -!- alezost [~user@128-70-203-58.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:55:27 -!- seg [~Thunderbi@71-80-164-69.dhcp.lnbh.ca.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:55:37 desophos [~desophos@n132h78.dhcp.oxy.edu] has joined #lisp 20:56:44 -!- MoALTz_ [~no@host86-142-120-246.range86-142.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: brb] 20:57:04 MoALTz [~no@host86-142-120-246.range86-142.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 20:57:53 gzg [~user@24-217-211-79.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 21:01:17 ezakimak [~nick@72.250.219.55] has joined #lisp 21:03:57 -!- ASau [~user@p4FF96624.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 21:04:24 -!- k0001 [~k0001@181.95.255.67] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:08:44 willyfrog [~willyfrog@146.255.102.14.gigas.com] has joined #lisp 21:10:56 mm. confusion time again. (defmacro foo ((a b) &body body) (destructuring-bind &key k) (fun a b) `(let ((k ,k)) (progn ,@body))) --- that should evaluate a and b at macro exansion time right? 21:11:39 yacks [~py@103.6.159.103] has joined #lisp 21:12:44 -!- kwmiebach [~kwmiebach@xdsl-87-78-7-221.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:13:07 kwmiebach [~kwmiebach@xdsl-87-78-7-221.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 21:13:38 -!- willyfrog [~willyfrog@146.255.102.14.gigas.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:14:18 you typo'd, fix it first 21:14:31 yeah saw that 21:14:40 actually the problem is elsewhere in the code it seems 21:15:35 Hey lispers - I just ran into a bug that I wrote and I was wonder how you avoid problems like this with your code: https://gist.github.com/drmeister/ee5f8bacf4fef8d79c25 21:15:57 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-89-145.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:16:06 what's the bug? 21:16:19 It's a macro that wraps code where the code returns something but it's wiped out by the print statement at the end of the macro. 21:16:29 Is the only solution: "don't do that"? 21:16:46 you can use multiple-value-prog1, unwind-protect, something like that 21:16:54 if you want to save the return value but then do something else 21:18:33 So something like: https://gist.github.com/drmeister/409faaa285afc73e459d 21:18:58 yeah. 21:19:09 willyfrog [~willyfrog@146.255.102.14] has joined #lisp 21:19:42 Ok "with great power - comes great responsibility". 21:20:08 Karl_dscc [~localhost@p5DD9CC84.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 21:20:34 benny [~user@maidenhead3.tunnelr.com] has joined #lisp 21:20:40 ASau [~user@p4FF96624.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 21:21:32 seg [~Thunderbi@71-80-164-69.dhcp.lnbh.ca.charter.com] has joined #lisp 21:21:46 I'll write my macros like that from now on. 21:23:30 like what? 21:23:54 drmeiste_, see the DBG mao in uiop-debug 21:23:57 macro 21:24:12 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@bzq-79-182-131-40.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:24:14 Fare: What is uiop-debug? 21:24:20 oudeis [~oudeis@bzq-79-182-131-40.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 21:25:25 insert (uiop:uiop-debug) in your package, then you can use (DBG :foo (+ 1 2) (last-form-that-returns-values)) 21:25:32 very useful for printf-debugging 21:28:22 I really need to get :asdf set up with my common lisp (sigh) 21:29:13 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@88.115.137.88.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:29:39 zickzackv [~faot@p4FC97744.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 21:29:56 it's not hard, especially if you follow ECL semantics 21:30:20 patches welcome, anyway 21:30:33 -!- seg [~Thunderbi@71-80-164-69.dhcp.lnbh.ca.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 21:30:44 you can use the file uiop/contrib/debug.lisp without the rest of uiop 21:30:50 -!- Nuupi [~IceChat9@a91-154-110-47.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Quit: Copywight 2013 Elmer Fudd. All wights wesewved.] 21:31:02 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ho1.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:34:23 How does this macro look - I want it to generate code that returns whatever ,@body returns and not what (llvm-sys::finalize ...) returns but I need (llvm-sys::finalize...) to be run after the body is executed. https://gist.github.com/drmeister/67e7b7d92d962285d100 21:35:50 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@staticline-31-183-61-68.toya.net.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:36:53 (sigh) - how about I just test it... 21:37:00 looks fine to me 21:37:52 killerboy [~mateusz@staticline-31-183-61-68.toya.net.pl] has joined #lisp 21:38:52 That (llvm-sys:finalize ...) call returns nil, wiping out what ,@body was supposed to return and cost me a day debugging it. The funny part is the whole reason I'm doing this is to improve the debuggability of my compiled code (sigh). 21:39:20 ... and it works - hurray! 21:40:53 On to the next bug. 21:46:30 -!- nialo [~nialo@ool-44c53f01.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:52:04 ehu [ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 21:58:58 -!- desophos [~desophos@n132h78.dhcp.oxy.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:02:14 -!- ehu [ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:06:51 chameco [~samuel@cpe-74-69-188-107.stny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:07:43 desophos [~desophos@n132h78.dhcp.oxy.edu] has joined #lisp 22:09:34 -!- prxq [~mommer@x2f68ed6.dyn.telefonica.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:09:53 pdewacht [~pdewacht@87.214-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 22:09:54 -!- xk05 [~xk05@30.176-62-69.ftth.swbr.surewest.net] has left #lisp 22:10:16 Drmeister, it looks fine, but would be even better in call-with style 22:10:40 -!- zickzackv [~faot@p4FC97744.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:11:02 -!- Sagane [~Sagane@177.100-226-89.dsl.completel.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:11:05 -!- chameco [~samuel@cpe-74-69-188-107.stny.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 22:11:39 chameco [~samuel@cpe-74-69-188-107.stny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:13:37 nialo [~nialo@ool-44c53f01.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 22:14:24 -!- oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-162-148.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:15:50 oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-162-148.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 22:17:08 drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has joined #lisp 22:20:53 -!- slarti [~anonymous@104-252-AGAVEBB-NM.abq.nm.agavebb.net] has quit [Quit: slarti] 22:21:35 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:22:11 slarti [~anonymous@104-252-AGAVEBB-NM.abq.nm.agavebb.net] has joined #lisp 22:25:23 -!- gendl [~gendl@c-98-250-10-50.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: gendl] 22:26:23 gendl [~gendl@c-98-250-10-50.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:27:08 -!- synacktic [~jordyd@unaffiliated/jordyd] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:30:34 sunwukong [~androirc@78.139.2.103] has joined #lisp 22:31:10 -!- hiroakip [~hiroaki@ip-178-202-201-114.unitymediagroup.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:31:23 Fare: What is call-with style? 22:34:23 it's where you define a call-with-foo function that does the real work, and the with-foo macro just wraps its body in a lambda and uses call-with-foo. 22:34:57 drmeiste_, http://google-styleguide.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/lispguide.xml#Macros 22:34:59 -!- sunwukong [~androirc@78.139.2.103] has quit [Client Quit] 22:35:02 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:36:09 xk05 [~xk05@30.176-62-69.ftth.swbr.surewest.net] has joined #lisp 22:37:19 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-67-9.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:37:24 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-67-9.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 22:37:47 Oh dear - that is wonderful! 22:37:50 -!- benny [~user@maidenhead3.tunnelr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:38:15 That solves my one big problem I have with macros - they don't show up in my backtraces. 22:38:36 now you know! 22:39:11 re: style, am I the only one that's uses fukamachi's style of writing class names like 22:39:23 the only one besides, you know, him 22:39:25 it goes way back 22:39:38 ISLisp used that style in the 1990s 22:39:46 it probably goes back earlier even 22:39:48 eudoxia: I'm new to common lisp - I've been using it for classes and structures I define within CL. 22:39:57 synacktic [~jordyd@unaffiliated/jordyd] has joined #lisp 22:40:04 doesn't dylan also use that style? 22:40:05 Who's "him"? 22:40:19 fukamachi 22:40:34 I use that style (kind of) in lisp-interface-library 22:40:34 oh good, i thought people were going to look at my code and think its weird 22:40:43 axion [~axion@lngdnd-ai02-74-214-211-129.utma.com] has joined #lisp 22:40:51 actually, I use <...> for interface classes, but not for other classes 22:41:12 drmeiste_: github.com/fukamachi 22:41:15 and I use >...< for classes in the classy and posh variants of LIL 22:41:51 -!- slarti [~anonymous@104-252-AGAVEBB-NM.abq.nm.agavebb.net] has quit [Quit: slarti] 22:42:55 slarti [~anonymous@104-252-AGAVEBB-NM.abq.nm.agavebb.net] has joined #lisp 22:43:09 Fare: so this problem with macros not showing up in backtraces is a general problem in other Common Lisps? I thought it was because I wasn't tracking source code properly. 22:44:10 macros are expanded before runtime 22:44:20 therefore they can't appear in backtrace 22:44:38 you need a lisp that keeps source code location as it expands macros 22:44:51 syntax-case famously does that in Scheme, including Racket 22:45:11 in particular, this means macros don't manipulate plain lists, but syntax objects. 22:45:30 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:47:04 Right - I was putting a lot of thought into keeping track of source code locations as macros are expanded. But this call-with-foo style suggests that it is a general problem that probably isn't worth my effort to solve. Rather I should just use call-with-foo style. 22:47:14 TDog [~chatzilla@65.129.129.201] has joined #lisp 22:48:14 syntax-case for CL would be nice 22:49:31 Syntax-case is hygenic macros - right? 22:50:32 ejohnson [~Thunderbi@67.181.201.173] has joined #lisp 22:58:12 -!- Shinmera [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has quit [Quit: TeX TeX TeX] 23:02:28 huangho [~guest@179.253.218.121] has joined #lisp 23:05:15 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 23:05:24 -!- TDog [~chatzilla@65.129.129.201] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:08:52 drmeiste_: yes. 23:11:37 zophy_ [~sy@host-94-20-107-208.midco.net] has joined #lisp 23:11:56 -!- zophy_ [~sy@host-94-20-107-208.midco.net] has quit [Client Quit] 23:12:10 -!- bitonic` [~user@xdsl-188-155-179-93.adslplus.ch] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:12:24 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r190-135-108-249.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:21:21 -!- slarti [~anonymous@104-252-AGAVEBB-NM.abq.nm.agavebb.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:24:05 -!- eskatrem [~user@80.174.147.225.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:26:26 jeff280 [~Jeff@172.243.245.160] has joined #lisp 23:29:51 -!- jangle [~jimmy1984@pool-173-67-27-249.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: jangle] 23:32:48 -!- nialo [~nialo@ool-44c53f01.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:34:04 corni [~corni@drupal.org/user/136353/view] has joined #lisp 23:36:35 -!- chameco [~samuel@cpe-74-69-188-107.stny.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:38:29 -!- maxter [~maxter@gaffeless.chaperon.volia.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:39:29 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@staticline-31-183-61-68.toya.net.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:41:12 killerboy [~mateusz@staticline-31-183-61-68.toya.net.pl] has joined #lisp 23:43:00 -!- arnas [arnsa@78-63-18-208.static.zebra.lt] has quit [] 23:45:11 -!- jeff280 [~Jeff@172.243.245.160] has quit [Quit: jeff280] 23:49:33 -!- nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:49:57 uzo [~uzo@adsl-108-67-102-104.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:51:16 -!- uzo [~uzo@adsl-108-67-102-104.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 23:51:37 -!- uzo2 [~uzo@adsl-108-67-103-64.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:51:46 uzo [~uzo@adsl-108-67-102-104.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:51:50 -!- tolk` [~user@host183.200-82-114.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:52:06 loke`` [~user@2400:d803:7342:f91a:f9d3:bbab:92a0:1095] has joined #lisp 23:54:14 -!- loke` [~user@2400:d803:7342:f91a:dd62:df93:2e29:784] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:56:49 jangle [~jimmy1984@pool-173-67-27-249.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:58:14 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@staticline-31-183-61-68.toya.net.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:59:25 killerboy [~mateusz@staticline-31-183-61-68.toya.net.pl] has joined #lisp