00:00:21 -!- echo-area [~user@123.120.255.5] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:00:22 K1rk [~Kirk@equinox.epecweb.com] has joined #lisp 00:00:22 -!- K1rk [~Kirk@equinox.epecweb.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 00:02:15 pyx [~pyx@unaffiliated/pyx] has joined #lisp 00:02:18 K1rk [~Kirk@equinox.epecweb.com] has joined #lisp 00:02:18 -!- K1rk [~Kirk@equinox.epecweb.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 00:02:29 -!- pyx [~pyx@unaffiliated/pyx] has quit [Client Quit] 00:02:51 -!- xk05 [~xk05@c-98-244-43-125.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:04:17 K1rk [~Kirk@equinox.epecweb.com] has joined #lisp 00:04:18 -!- K1rk [~Kirk@equinox.epecweb.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 00:06:17 K1rk [~Kirk@equinox.epecweb.com] has joined #lisp 00:06:18 -!- K1rk [~Kirk@equinox.epecweb.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 00:06:30 uzo2 [~uzo@108.73.166.188] has joined #lisp 00:06:56 Xach: I also learned that the /etc/profile on my system is not posix compliant 00:07:38 (It assumes [ is a builtin and tries to call it with an empty path) 00:08:18 K1rk [~Kirk@equinox.epecweb.com] has joined #lisp 00:08:19 -!- K1rk [~Kirk@equinox.epecweb.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 00:10:15 -!- uzo1 [~uzo@99.102.150.108] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:10:17 K1rk [~Kirk@equinox.epecweb.com] has joined #lisp 00:10:18 -!- K1rk [~Kirk@equinox.epecweb.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 00:12:18 K1rk [~Kirk@equinox.epecweb.com] has joined #lisp 00:12:18 -!- K1rk [~Kirk@equinox.epecweb.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 00:14:18 K1rk [~Kirk@equinox.epecweb.com] has joined #lisp 00:14:19 -!- K1rk [~Kirk@equinox.epecweb.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 00:15:12 zRecursive [~czsq888@171.217.3.87] has joined #lisp 00:16:10 -!- Petit_Dejeuner_ [~hypernito@c-174-48-40-89.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:16:17 K1rk [~Kirk@equinox.epecweb.com] has joined #lisp 00:16:18 -!- K1rk [~Kirk@equinox.epecweb.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 00:16:35 Petit_Dejeuner_ [~hypernito@c-174-48-40-89.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:17:22 k0001 [~k0001@host115.190-137-200.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 00:18:17 K1rk [~Kirk@equinox.epecweb.com] has joined #lisp 00:18:18 -!- K1rk [~Kirk@equinox.epecweb.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 00:19:42 complexity was born from portability 00:20:17 K1rk [~Kirk@equinox.epecweb.com] has joined #lisp 00:20:18 -!- K1rk [~Kirk@equinox.epecweb.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 00:20:25 the first versions of cl-launch had to work with asdf 1, which frankly didn't help, either 00:21:18 cl-launch got simpler with asdf2, simpler still with asdf3. 00:22:17 K1rk [~Kirk@equinox.epecweb.com] has joined #lisp 00:22:18 -!- K1rk [~Kirk@equinox.epecweb.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 00:23:54 K1rk [~Kirk@equinox.epecweb.com] has joined #lisp 00:23:54 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-58.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:23:54 -!- K1rk [~Kirk@equinox.epecweb.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 00:25:48 K1rk [~Kirk@equinox.epecweb.com] has joined #lisp 00:25:49 -!- K1rk [~Kirk@equinox.epecweb.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 00:26:04 So that's where the complexity shifted 00:26:49 Here I was thinking it was all from xcvb! 00:27:47 K1rk [~Kirk@equinox.epecweb.com] has joined #lisp 00:27:48 MoALTz_ [~no@host86-142-120-246.range86-142.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 00:27:48 -!- K1rk [~Kirk@equinox.epecweb.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 00:28:27 -!- synacktic [~jordyd@unaffiliated/jordyd] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:28:36 -!- segv- [~mb@95-91-243-156-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:29:47 K1rk [~Kirk@equinox.epecweb.com] has joined #lisp 00:29:48 -!- K1rk [~Kirk@equinox.epecweb.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 00:29:57 uh? 00:30:04 xcvb came long after cl-launch 00:30:14 -!- MoALTz [~no@host86-142-120-148.range86-142.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:30:29 -!- dRbiG [drbig@unhallowed.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:31:01 -!- sfa [~sfa@208.66.156.12] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:31:04 Sorry, it is a bad joke about all your software getting put into asdf. 00:31:46 sfa [~sfa@208.66.156.12] has joined #lisp 00:32:11 ejohnson [~Thunderbi@c-67-181-201-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:32:18 or if you mean whether cl-launch made asdf more complex, not really. asdf had been growing its own set of portability and clean build features, and the "minimal and hackish" build and portability features in cl-launch got superseded by more robust variants in uiop 00:33:16 dRbiG [drbig@unhallowed.pl] has joined #lisp 00:33:21 uiop is much bigger than the code once in cl-launch, but in a sense simpler anyway, because it's not trying to do it on a shoestring. 00:33:51 -!- JuanDaugherty [~Ren@cpe-76-180-168-166.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:34:17 (but yes, the command-line access and image dumping / creating (for ecl) code in asdf has its origins in cl-launch) 00:34:50 did you have time to test quicklisp with the latest asdf? will you have time this week? 00:35:11 I have not had time. I might have time this week. 00:35:35 fisxoj [~fisxoj@192-0-131-151.cpe.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 00:35:37 K1rk [~Kirk@equinox.epecweb.com] has joined #lisp 00:36:59 nice if you do. There's this embarrassing bug that disrupts the debian install (and pretty much nothing else) the fix for which I'd like to see released. 00:37:40 \o/ 00:37:51 Do any common lisp implementations automatically COMPILE-FILE source files when they are loaded with LOAD? I know I'm being lazy - I should just try it. 00:38:00 -!- shridhar [Shridhar@nat/redhat/x-czjpguhxnahapube] has quit [Quit: shridhar] 00:38:24 i don't think that would confor 00:38:25 m 00:38:46 is there a naming convention for quasi-constants? Like (defvar $cr (coerce '(#\Return) 'string)) 00:40:00 drmeister, I'm not sure that's allowed by the standard — at least, unless compile-file eschews some of the allowed optimizations that make the semantics of (LOAD (COMPILE-FILE ...)) potentially differ from LOAD 00:40:04 -!- k0001 [~k0001@host115.190-137-200.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:40:07 Fare: I use ++ earmufs 00:40:26 -!- namtsui [~user@c-76-21-124-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:40:34 Bike - you mean automatically COMPILE-FILEing during a LOAD would not conform? That's a good point. I was thinking about how Python generates .pyc files from .py files every time you load 00:40:40 jasom: double pluses? I use single pluses +glitter+ for actual constants. 00:40:50 single plusses 00:41:01 (defparameter +cr+ (coerce '#\Return) 'string)) 00:41:10 doesn't eval-when guarantee different semantics for LOAD and (LOAD (COMPILE-FILE ...)) ? 00:41:19 yeah, eval-when is what i was thinking 00:41:25 namtsui [~user@c-76-21-124-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:41:35 "(Note, however, that processing of eval-when forms by load is controlled by the :execute situation.)" bla bla bla 00:41:59 Fare: I don't care that it's not eql, it's still a constant in the sense that a (setf ) on it is a bug, so I use the same earmuffs as actual constants 00:42:20 i.e. LOAD will have all the EVAL-WHEN (:EXECUTE) in order, whereas (LOAD (COMPILE-FILE ...)) will have all the :COMPILE-TOPLEVEL first, then all the :LOAD-TOPLEVEL, and none of the :EXECUTE 00:42:41 jasom: that's a valid point of view 00:43:11 drmeister, so the answer is "probably not" 00:43:29 And I think I got that style from someone else here in #lisp (both the earmuffs and using defparameter) 00:43:35 so there are 2 people that do it thatway 00:44:18 at work we have defconstant-equal, defconstant-equalp, etc. 00:44:40 defconstant-uneql 00:45:06 and alexandria has define-constant 00:45:54 so using defvar and/or defparameter is something I'd only do in asdf or uiop, where I can't load alexandria, and won't afford to redefine the defconstant replacements. 00:46:38 (define-symbol-macro +cr+ #.(coerce '(#\Return) string)) 00:46:52 jasom: even more evil! 00:47:35 Fare: it generates really fast code when combining lots of string constants on sbcl though 00:47:50 defglobal + d-s-m! 00:48:04 you could also define a symbol macro for + and specially parse what follows as either a number, a symbol, or that constant string, while you're at it. 00:48:08 Fare: Thanks! 00:48:45 I mean, a macro-character 00:48:58 zophy [~sy@host-98-218-220-24.midco.net] has joined #lisp 00:49:12 chord [322f530e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.50.47.83.14] has joined #lisp 00:49:24 Fare: that requires modifying the read-table though 00:49:32 Quadrescence, d-s-m IV or d-s-m V ? 00:49:57 d-s-m doesn't mess up the readtable and works so long as names don't collide (which is the same with any way of defining a constant) 00:50:03 -!- chord [322f530e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.50.47.83.14] has quit [Client Quit] 00:50:11 leo2007 [~leo@124.64.87.249] has joined #lisp 00:50:17 chare [322f530e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.50.47.83.14] has joined #lisp 00:50:21 hi 00:50:24 Fare, (defglobal **f** (make-f)) (define-symbol-macro +f+ (load-time-value (the tyf **f**))) ;; where tyf is the type of f. 00:50:26 can anyone hear me? 00:50:43 chare: no, but my headphones aren't plugged in 00:50:44 chare: no 00:51:01 or is is (the tyf (load-time-value **f**)) ? 00:51:16 question why didn't some kind of lisp s-expression format ever get popular compared to json and xml? 00:51:26 which lisp s-expression format? 00:51:35 any kind 00:51:49 the one that includes the semantics of the readtable, and through it, of all of Common Lisp? 00:52:02 xml grew out of sgml json exists because it's a subset of javascript's syntax 00:52:10 Fare: now you're going beyond my understanding 00:52:18 "sorry, my SEXP parser fails to implement TRANSLATE-LOGICAL-PATHNAME properly!" 00:52:46 "my SEXP parser failed validation because it got the branch cuts wrong on atanh" 00:52:47 chare: I'm surge erik naggum has a rant about xml 00:52:50 jasom: so lisp has been around FOREVER so why didn't s-expressions take off but json and xml did? 00:53:11 jasom, he has a "popular" rant about it in fact 00:53:38 chare, maybe because parentheses don't look so good in javascript 00:53:46 chare: lisp has been around FOREVER so why don't we use it instead of C++? 00:53:47 most of the comparisons I read about are about how json is so much better than xml, but s-expressions are never even considered 00:54:01 jasom: programmers are dumb? 00:54:07 chare: because there are as many different incompatible s-expression specs as there are lisp implementations, and they can never agree with each other, much less with the color of the bikeshed. 00:54:18 SGML dates back to the 80s so it's not exactly new 00:54:20 chare, the correct answer is because LISP is SLOW! 00:54:42 and like I said a JSON parser could be implemented in javascript with eval() 00:54:45 Quadrescence: does jasom agree with your answer? 00:54:54 yes 00:55:01 lets hear his answer from him 00:55:27 yes, performance is a reason for C++ being adopted, but then of course Java! 00:55:31 Fare: wait how many s-expression specs can there be? 00:55:58 -!- bananagram [~bot@c-76-30-158-226.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:56:03 actually, MORE than Lisp implementations, thanks to endless possible special bindings. 00:56:08 bananagram [~bot@c-76-30-158-226.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:56:14 what do you mean by special bindings? 00:56:39 chare: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/02_d.htm <-- there's just what's builtin to common-lisp 00:56:40 I'm going to admit i've only looked at clojure code 00:56:58 even using with-standard-io-syntax, there's space for interesting things 00:57:14 jasom: woah does clojure have that too? 00:57:18 chare: okay the [ ] you see in clojure doesn't exist in the standard syntax of common lisp 00:57:44 chare: I haven't used it much, but last time I checked, clojure specifically didn't implement reader macros 00:57:52 clojure is a lisp-1 which makes #' not needed 00:57:59 scmaccal [~scmaccal@bb-216-195-184-157.gwi.net] has joined #lisp 00:57:59 it does have backquote though 00:58:46 so am I going to be stuck with nodejs and no lisp forever? 00:58:52 clojure has boolean literals and common-lisp doesn't 00:59:08 ish anyway 00:59:31 racket is a lisp and uses #' for syntax objects 00:59:48 maybe it's even standard for syntax-case implementations 00:59:59 lisp1 01:00:00 common lisp uses #( ) for vectors and clojure uses [ ] for vectors 01:00:15 ok so you guys are making it sound like lisp stuff is guaranteed to fail 01:00:18 doesnt clojure use #' for gensym or something 01:00:24 or is it just # 01:00:27 common lisp standardizes a few #\character_names but not all of them. 01:00:32 The original lisp specification didn't have string or number literals 01:00:38 especially not in the days of unicode 01:01:02 common lisp has case-converting case-sensitive syntax by default 01:01:18 chare: no, using s-expressions for serializing is perfectly reasonable, but it's not as standardized as json or xml 01:01:34 the syntax of CL symbols is tied to its flat package system |foo|::|bar| 01:01:40 and since most lisps have libraries that can convert from json to a native object, it's not that big a deal 01:01:43 jasom, well there are standards. didn't rivest standardize one? 01:01:49 the problem is no one uses it ;) 01:02:00 anyway got to go 01:02:04 http://xkcd.com/927/ 01:02:30 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@101.171.34.16] has quit [Quit: Disconnecting -- bye] 01:03:25 chare: lisp stuff is not "guaranteed to fail" -- but making it actually work for everyone is a very hard task -- are you up to it? 01:03:56 Rich Hickey took a year off to develop Clojure. It's a relative success, but still a far cry from a Lisp that makes everyone agree. 01:04:10 S-expression standard: http://people.csail.mit.edu/rivest/Sexp.txt 01:04:11 (though it did attract a large community) 01:04:14 lyanchih [~lyanchih@202.39.219.19] has joined #lisp 01:04:15 prxq_ [~mommer@x2f68b61.dyn.telefonica.de] has joined #lisp 01:04:25 synacktic [~jordyd@unaffiliated/jordyd] has joined #lisp 01:05:09 normanrichards [~normanric@70.114.215.220] has joined #lisp 01:06:46 you might as well use erlang object representations 01:07:02 at least, there is an active code base for that 01:07:26 lets make a starcraft clone in lisp 01:07:26 -!- prxq [~mommer@x2f6bd50.dyn.telefonica.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:07:44 Gavino? 01:11:23 -!- foreignFunction [~niksaak@ip-4761.sunline.net.ua] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:13:09 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@192-0-131-151.cpe.teksavvy.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:13:40 Vivitron [~Vivitron@c-50-172-44-193.hsd1.il.comcast.net] 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[~user@24-217-211-79.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 03:09:41 joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@086.112-30-64.ftth.swbr.surewest.net] has joined #lisp 03:10:51 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@172.56.16.81] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 03:12:17 beach [~user@ABordeaux-651-1-170-195.w90-5.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 03:12:30 k0001 [~k0001@host115.190-137-200.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 03:12:34 Good morning everyone. 03:12:55 meiji11` [~user@75.158.41.148] has joined #lisp 03:13:05 -!- scmaccal` [~user@bb-216-195-184-157.gwi.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:13:09 MoALTz__ [~no@host86-142-120-246.range86-142.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 03:13:12 scmaccal` [~user@bb-216-195-184-157.gwi.net] has joined #lisp 03:13:20 -!- scmaccal` [~user@bb-216-195-184-157.gwi.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:13:23 hiyosi_ [~skip_it@247.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has joined #lisp 03:13:29 nug700 [~nug700@209-181-102-38.phnx.qwest.net] has 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yacks [~py@103.6.159.103] has joined #lisp 03:46:21 scroy [~user@unaffiliated/scroy] has joined #lisp 03:47:18 i feel like this is ALMOST right: http://paste.lisp.org/display/139363 03:47:53 should be an flet, not a macrolet. 03:47:53 i just want it to be evaluated as a progn call 03:48:08 -!- oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-155-12.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:48:12 the mapcar should be unquote-spliced. 03:48:14 drmeiste_ [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-58.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:48:31 (the flet isn't part of the expansion) 03:48:38 oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-163-240.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 03:49:11 hmm. 03:50:25 Bike: unquote-spliced means: ,@ ? 03:51:09 scroy: http://paste.lisp.org/+2ZJ7/1 03:52:10 Bike: thanks so much! starting to get it now 03:52:35 not sure i get the point of this macro, but hopefully you can learn a thing or two about macro semantics, i guess. 03:52:59 -!- drmeiste_ [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-58.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 03:53:06 -!- austinja [~austinja@c-50-133-251-129.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: austinja] 03:53:23 -!- scmaccal` [~user@bb-216-195-184-157.gwi.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:53:36 scmaccal` [~user@bb-216-195-184-157.gwi.net] has joined #lisp 03:53:46 trying to make an init file compatible with older emacs versions 03:54:11 there's some functions that are missing in 23, and i don't want to write the check for each one 03:54:13 is this elisp? 03:54:17 yeah 03:54:28 i might have mislead you, then, i thought you were doing CL (the subject of this channel) 03:54:35 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 03:54:54 oh i see. #emacs wasn't much help :\ 03:55:07 well, hopefully this does work, anyway 03:55:12 does indeed 03:55:16 good, good. 03:56:12 -!- nilsi_ [~nilsi@221.146.90.62] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:58:06 ah, and ,@(mapcar #'do-one exprs) also works. very nice 03:58:19 oh, yes, i should have noticed that 03:58:24 do you understan why a macrolet wouldn't work? 03:58:41 not entirely 03:58:55 well, to sum up, macros work on literal source 03:59:11 so you when you wrote (do-one e) the argument passed to the do-one macro function is actually the symbol "e"! 03:59:19 ah yeah i see it now 04:00:15 but i couldn't get at the expressions from within the lambda 04:01:12 the problem with your original was that you expanded into (macrolet ... (mapcar (lambda (e) ...) exprs)), and of course you don't want to expand into any mapcar, you just want a progn. 04:02:14 oudeis [~oudeis@bzq-79-182-131-40.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 04:02:17 -!- lyanchih [~lyanchih@202.39.219.19] has quit [Quit: lyanchih] 04:02:42 edgar-rft [~GOD@HSI-KBW-109-193-013-113.hsi7.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 04:03:25 i tried various combinations of splicing the mapcar, but i always ended up with just "e"s 04:04:05 right, because of the macrolet instead of flet, probably 04:04:49 so that's a compile-time flet - awesome, the thing is lisp is more powerful than i realized 04:05:08 right, a macro function is just a lisp function, it's just lisp code 04:05:29 a macrolet would be another meta-level up, IIUC. 04:05:49 it would just be a macro for your macro function source. 04:06:01 right! haha 04:06:09 you already use plenty of macros in your macro function, like "when" (at least that's a macro in CL, dunno about elisp) 04:06:50 yeah it is. and so are progn, flet 04:07:09 or, progn is built in, i guess 04:07:15 those aren't macros in CL, so, there you go! be careful about what i say, it may not be applicable 04:07:53 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 04:08:10 well you've solved my current problem though, and shone a light on macros for me 04:08:17 glad to hear. 04:11:20 -!- leo2007 [~leo@124.64.87.249] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.3.1] 04:17:28 cmack`` [~charlie@adsl-98-87-25-227.bna.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 04:19:12 -!- cmack` [~charlie@adsl-74-179-197-122.bna.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 04:21:52 nipra [~nipra@125.20.84.54] has joined #lisp 04:21:58 ehaliewicz [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 04:23:01 -!- scmaccal` [~user@bb-216-195-184-157.gwi.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:23:59 change-class is so cool. I wonder if implementations optimize this operation at the expense of all others, or if they make this operation complicated so other things can be more efficient 04:24:35 i think the PCL implementation just trashes a bunch of caches. dunno for sure 04:24:54 -!- scmaccal [~scmaccal@bb-216-195-184-157.gwi.net] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 04:25:01 Natch [~Natch@c-cdcee155.25-4-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 04:26:42 cmack``` [~charlie@adsl-74-179-250-176.bna.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 04:27:23 -!- synacktic [~jordyd@unaffiliated/jordyd] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:28:08 -!- cmack`` [~charlie@adsl-98-87-25-227.bna.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:29:02 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:30:27 Munksgaard [~philip@80-71-132-106.u.parknet.dk] has joined #lisp 04:32:47 alezost [~user@128-70-203-73.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 04:34:39 Vivitron [~Vivitron@c-50-172-44-193.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:34:40 -!- jrghiglia [~user@dynamic-adsl-78-13-176-250.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 04:34:48 -!- didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 04:35:47 -!- Vivitron [~Vivitron@c-50-172-44-193.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:36:13 daimrod [daimrod@sbrk.org] has joined #lisp 04:36:15 -!- daimrod [daimrod@sbrk.org] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:36:23 -!- nipra [~nipra@125.20.84.54] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 04:36:28 daimrod [daimrod@sbrk.org] has joined #lisp 04:37:58 -!- joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@086.112-30-64.ftth.swbr.surewest.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:38:21 joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@086.112-30-64.ftth.swbr.surewest.net] has joined #lisp 04:41:53 -!- k0001 [~k0001@host115.190-137-200.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:42:45 -!- yacks [~py@103.6.159.103] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:46:05 ggole [~ggole@124-169-118-137.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 04:46:34 ln [~l@84.233.246.170] has joined #lisp 04:47:03 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:49:12 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-58.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:50:20 -!- ln [~l@84.233.246.170] has left #lisp 04:53:47 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-58.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 04:56:52 -!- Bike [~Glossina@wl-nat105.it.wsu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:58:25 ASau` [~user@p5797F642.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 04:59:22 -!- ASau [~user@p5797F03E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:59:25 -!- flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has quit [Quit: Reconnecting] 04:59:31 flip214 [~marek@86.59.100.100] has joined #lisp 04:59:31 -!- flip214 [~marek@86.59.100.100] has quit [Client Quit] 04:59:36 flip214_ [~marek@86.59.100.100] has joined #lisp 05:00:15 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 05:01:43 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@70.114.215.220] has quit [] 05:03:03 Bike [~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu] has joined #lisp 05:04:33 lyanchih [~lyanchih@118-163-141-228.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 05:11:38 -!- motionman [~motionman@unaffiliated/motionman] has quit [Quit: tschüß] 05:12:41 nachtwandler [~nachtwand@p5089D378.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 05:12:49 antifuchs [~foobar@boots.boinkor.net] has joined #lisp 05:12:54 cmack```` [~charlie@adsl-74-179-28-154.bna.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 05:12:57 -!- antifuchs [~foobar@boots.boinkor.net] has left #lisp 05:13:33 chare [322f530e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.50.47.83.14] has joined #lisp 05:14:28 is it possible to use lisp or scheme to develop for ios and android? 05:14:51 -!- cmack``` [~charlie@adsl-74-179-250-176.bna.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:15:21 https://wukix.com/mocl 05:16:28 zRecursive [~czsq888@171.217.3.87] has joined #lisp 05:16:30 I think there may be someone who is working on a CL to Obj-C compiler for IOS. Don't know much about it. 05:16:36 Jaynes: nice so we aren't trapped to the original languages 05:17:00 there are still bugs in mocl IIRC. It isn't ideal. 05:17:21 how hard could it be to fix them? 05:17:40 ABCL might be an option on android, but I have not checked. I'd prefer to have a separate platform like the Raspberry Pi or the BeagleBone Black. 05:17:52 -!- uzo1 is now known as UZO 05:18:15 A linux kernel + a Lisp based shell and UI = coolness 05:18:26 at least on a mobile platform. 05:18:33 -!- UZO is now known as uzo 05:18:42 -!- meiji11` [~user@75.158.41.148] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:19:24 -!- xk05 [~xk05@c-98-244-43-125.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 05:19:26 -!- namtsui [~user@c-76-21-124-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 05:19:59 -!- scroy [~user@unaffiliated/scroy] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 05:20:25 chare: embedded development is a challenge. lots of constraints. 05:20:39 Jaynes: At that point, lets just turn Emacs into a phone-os... :^) 05:20:51 exactly! 05:20:54 lol 05:21:18 tbh: the Emacs packages have enough for a pretty damn powerful desktop. 05:21:21 ggherdov [uid11402@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ernjipeuxxzogepx] has joined #lisp 05:21:52 Jaynes: Just wait till Guile makes into upstream Emacs, write a Wayland compositor for it, then a widget system -- there-ya'go! :^P 05:22:20 Guile? Barf. 05:22:28 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-67-9.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:22:28 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-67-9.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 05:22:55 -!- chare [322f530e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.50.47.83.14] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 05:23:44 I think it would be interesting, sans the phone-ui (even then -- but not nearly as "practical") to do *All* of one's computing via Emacs. I can do a good 75% comfy, but there's somethings (like mypaint) I won't give up and Emacs currently just can't do. 05:24:21 Jaynes: Meh, I love Guile -- probably because of all the cool stuff that's being done right-now in it, via the GNU system. Namely Guix and DmD. :^) 05:24:33 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-67-9.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:24:47 Guile does look like it'll make it into upstream Emacs in a good year or-two. 05:24:55 I haven't been following it. 05:25:40 stepnem [~stepnem@internet2.cznet.cz] has joined #lisp 05:26:02 In fact CLISP has done it VERY well :) 05:26:19 -!- desophos [~desophos@n138h11.dhcp.oxy.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:26:28 IIRC, clisp can be a shell too 05:27:19 I would prefer a rewrite in CL a la Climacs... 05:27:46 Jaynes: Their GSOC was pretty successful; so-much so, it is a still a somewhat distant dream; But it doesn't seem like an impossible one. http://www.google-melange.com/gsoc/proposal/review/google/gsoc2013/bpt/35002 05:27:50 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 05:28:11 sdemarre [~serge@22.164-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 05:28:54 maybe I didn't understand -- elisp is still supported, but parts will be rewritten in guile. is that correct? 05:29:43 jayne: Yup, guilemacs isn't a rewrite -- just trying to replace the elisp core, to be handled by Guile. Assuming you write a means to communicate with the FFI in guile, you could interact with CL a lot better than what was once possible too. 05:30:03 nice. 05:30:37 so emacs code can be written in either elisp or scheme? is that correct? 05:32:00 Jaynes: Will, once finished -- yes. Theoretically it could be done even via lua, js, and the like (Guile supports a handful of languages via their ffi -- very cool tech (and this is why, I imagine that CL wouldn't be that far away, assuming one actually worked on it)). :^) 05:32:23 desophos [~desophos@n132h78.dhcp.oxy.edu] has joined #lisp 05:32:41 namtsui [~user@c-76-21-124-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:36:41 -!- Munksgaard [~philip@80-71-132-106.u.parknet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:42:49 -!- desophos [~desophos@n132h78.dhcp.oxy.edu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:46:14 quazimodo [~quazimodo@d110-33-227-98.bla801.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 05:47:23 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 05:47:44 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Quit: kcj] 05:51:17 ehu [ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 05:54:40 -!- namtsui [~user@c-76-21-124-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:55:30 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#lisp 09:25:39 przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has joined #lisp 09:26:08 -!- nug700 [~nug700@209-181-102-38.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: bye] 09:26:11 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 09:30:04 Lefeni [~Lefeni@c-cf4fe555.143-16-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 09:41:09 -!- Shinmera [~linus@public-docking-pat-etx-mapped-0016.ethz.ch] has quit [Quit: leaving] 09:41:45 Harag [~Thunderbi@105-236-237-55.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 09:42:40 -!- maxter_ [~maxter@gaffeless.chaperon.volia.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:44:37 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 09:44:57 maxter [~maxter@gaffeless.chaperon.volia.net] has joined #lisp 09:51:04 Okasu [~1@unaffiliated/okasu] has joined #lisp 09:51:53 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-58.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 09:53:16 -!- bitonic [~user@77-56-49-28.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:55:07 -!- umontabea [~abeaumont@77.231.225.237] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 09:56:16 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-58.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:57:44 bitonic [~user@77-56-49-28.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 09:58:52 Are there any useful libraries out there for writing a roguelike? 09:59:00 well except tcod bindings 10:00:32 seg [~Thunderbi@71-80-164-69.dhcp.lnbh.ca.charter.com] has joined #lisp 10:01:02 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 10:01:16 -!- bitonic [~user@77-56-49-28.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:02:24 -!- pranavrc [~pranavrc@unaffiliated/pranavrc] has quit [Quit: Ping timeout: ] 10:02:25 kwmiebach [~kwmiebach@xdsl-87-79-132-1.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 10:02:37 -!- effy_ is now known as effy 10:03:42 bitonic [~user@77-56-49-28.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 10:06:36 pillton [~user@124-170-113-241.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 10:08:52 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:10:02 -!- ivan\ [~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 10:10:59 ivan\ [~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001] has joined #lisp 10:11:01 -!- ehaliewicz [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:12:53 -!- bitonic [~user@77-56-49-28.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 10:12:57 -!- Ayey_ [~rune@195.254.169.71] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:13:40 -!- joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@086.112-30-64.ftth.swbr.surewest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:17:33 -!- BlankVer1e [~pankajm@202.3.77.238] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:18:39 BlankVer1e [~pankajm@202.3.77.238] has joined #lisp 10:18:47 foreignFunction [~niksaak@ip-4761.sunline.net.ua] has joined #lisp 10:19:26 fikusz: searching in roguebasin shows some stuff: http://roguebasin.roguelikedevelopment.org/index.php?title=Special%3ASearch&search=lisp&go=Go 10:20:02 motionman [~motionman@unaffiliated/motionman] has joined #lisp 10:20:05 willyfrog: thanks, I've been searching there myself 10:20:13 there is an sdl link 10:20:18 there are some interesting examples 10:20:29 yes, I was planning of using lispbuilder-sdl 10:20:49 There are already several rogue programs written in CL, be it with a graphic display or a terminal display, so you could probably collect some code into a library. 10:20:56 the common lisp page uses curses directly (I think, I didn't read it thoroughly) 10:21:17 Shinmera [~linus@public-docking-pat-hg-mapped-0007.ethz.ch] has joined #lisp 10:21:36 It could be interesting to make a rogue with CLIM presentations :-) 10:21:47 -!- ericmathison [~ericmathi@172-15-249-133.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 10:21:53 and I used libtcod through python long time ago and it was a nice library, if there is a binding of it in CL I'd check it out 10:22:40 since you mentioned it, it should probably not do what you want, so disregard my last comment ;) 10:22:55 I think plain SDL gives you the most flexibility 10:23:09 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ho1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 10:23:14 probably, but you'll rewrite a lot of stuff 10:23:30 depends on what you are aiming for :) 10:24:01 I understand it implements a lot of stuff already, but where's the fun in that? :) 10:24:18 you get to focus on the game :) 10:24:41 Programming is the game :-) 10:25:44 as I said, it depends on what you want to achieve, so please, do a nice library :D 10:26:05 :) 10:26:24 I have my worries about using a plain terminal btw 10:26:30 -!- namtsui [~user@c-76-21-124-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:26:31 you can't really ship with a nice font 10:27:20 also terminals have a lot of weird behaviors 10:27:34 it's really hard to do a proper terminal app 10:28:40 not to mention if someone's using windows/putty with a remote system 10:30:25 suddenly your trees  look like  10:32:07 -!- ehu [~ehu@109.35.30.236] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 10:32:28 Karl_dscc [~localhost@p5DD9D226.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 10:33:44 harish_ [~harish@175.156.117.104] has joined #lisp 10:33:49 I assume you can use all kinds of character madness  with CL / lispbuilder-sdl-ttf 10:34:58 like deadly snowmen chasing you 10:36:17 -!- MoALTz__ [~no@host86-142-120-246.range86-142.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: brb] 10:36:52 MoALTz [~no@host86-142-120-246.range86-142.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 10:38:55 :) 10:39:36 -!- Munksgaard [~philip@80-71-132-106.u.parknet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:40:29 syrinx [~quassel@unaffiliated/syrinx-/x-4255893] has joined #lisp 10:41:48 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@93.113.190.121] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:42:32 mishoo [~mishoo@93.113.190.121] has joined #lisp 10:42:52 -!- echo-area [~user@182.92.247.2] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:46:04 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:46:57 -!- namccarty [~namccarty@74-131-94-214.dhcp.insightbb.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:48:42 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ho1.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 10:48:49 -!- Shinmera [~linus@public-docking-pat-hg-mapped-0007.ethz.ch] has quit [Quit: BBL] 10:53:26 -!- add^_ [~user@m176-70-201-126.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 10:54:50 -!- svs_ [~svs@104-252-AGAVEBB-NM.abq.nm.agavebb.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:55:18 -!- lyanchih [~lyanchih@118-163-141-228.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:55:26 add^_ [~user@m176-70-201-126.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 10:55:33 lyanchih [~lyanchih@202.39.219.19] has joined #lisp 10:57:30 -!- aw|incendiary [~zacharias@unaffiliated/aw] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:57:32 aw|incendiary_ [~zacharias@unaffiliated/aw] has joined #lisp 10:58:17 -!- lyanchih [~lyanchih@202.39.219.19] has quit [Client Quit] 11:06:34 I just got started with lispbuilder-sdl and get spammed with annoying warnings about bare references to structs being deprecated. can I hide these somehow? 11:07:25 I've seen there is an issue raised with the devs, but I don't want to wait until they fix it 11:08:48 -!- przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 11:10:19 you can fix it yourself then 11:11:10 stassats: well the issue says these are everywhere in the code 11:11:37 and I don't really care, I just want to use the lib without these warnings 11:12:06 everytime an event is processed I get these 11:12:37 if it's everywhere in the code, then fix it everywhere in the code 11:13:11 stassats: my problem isn't with deprecated struct types or whatever lispbuilder does 11:13:17 it's with getting spammed with warnings 11:13:49 then your problem is with deprecated struct types 11:14:47 -!- seg [~Thunderbi@71-80-164-69.dhcp.lnbh.ca.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:14:51 stassats: I see a difference in effort 11:15:32 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 11:15:34 hiding the warnings (grep -v) must be easier than learning cffi, understanding the lispbuilder code and fixing it 11:21:41 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-67-9.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 11:21:43 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-67-9.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 11:21:56 MoHaX [~luke@178.120.187.231] has joined #lisp 11:22:34 whiteline [~user@unaffiliated/whiteline] has joined #lisp 11:22:45 spacefrogg_ [~spacefrog@unaffiliated/spacefrogg] has joined #lisp 11:22:55 -!- spacefrogg_ is now known as spacefrogg 11:28:58 fikusz: even easier: don't sweat the warnings 11:29:11 -!- prxq_ is now known as prxq 11:30:08 prxq_: I can't use my repl for useful debugging output, because every time I press a key these warnings pop up 11:30:38 I'm looking at sb-ext:muffle-conditions, but can't figure out how to only hide deprecation warnings 11:30:39 you can modify cffi 11:30:42 or only this one 11:31:10 if you don't want to help lispbuilder-sdl 11:31:37 stassats: it's not like I want to put pressure on the devs or not help because I'm lazy 11:31:52 ehu [~ehu@31.137.202.20] has joined #lisp 11:32:20 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 11:33:34 -!- spacefrogg is now known as spacefrogg_ 11:33:50 ecraven [~user@www.nexoid.at] has joined #lisp 11:33:57 stassats: but I lack the understanding of how this works to fix it quickly and don't want to devote my afternoon to it 11:35:23 fikusz: drop a line at cffi-devel and we'll try to provide a recipe on how to muffle the deprecation warnings. Alas, you're not the only one to be bothered by this... 11:36:07 przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has joined #lisp 11:38:24 smithzv [~user@duan145-236-dhcp.colorado.edu] has joined #lisp 11:38:33 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 11:38:36 -!- przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:39:04 thanks, it's not like I don't like to help the community. it's the first time I used lispbuilder-sdl (~30 mins ago) and I've spent 20 mins with looking up solutions to this problem and arguing why I don't want to fix it the right way :) 11:39:31 rrs [~rrs@c-24-128-48-55.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:40:15 -!- iAran [~whimse@114.113.197.132] has left #lisp 11:40:31 is it me or is lispbuilder-sdl code really poor? 11:44:34 mhi^ [~mhi@cable-158-181-76-3.cust.telecolumbus.net] has joined #lisp 11:46:24 -!- pillton [~user@124-170-113-241.dyn.iinet.net.au] has left #lisp 11:46:39 fikusz: this http://paste.lisp.org/display/139367 will stop it on key presses 11:47:16 -!- Harag [~Thunderbi@105-236-237-55.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:47:49 stassats: thanks! 11:49:07 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:49:08 I pulled it in via quicklisp, I guess I can just redefine that function in that package 11:49:19 i can't touch any more code or i have an itch to rewrite everything 11:49:25 ehu` [~ehu@31.136.73.182] has joined #lisp 11:49:26 because it really sucks 11:49:40 stassats: :) 11:50:17 you can copy lispbuilder-sdl into ~/quick-lisp/local-projects and apply this patch 11:51:02 przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has joined #lisp 11:51:15 do local projects always have priority? 11:51:19 yes 11:51:34 nice, good to know 11:51:57 are you on windows? 11:52:04 stassats: no 11:52:24 then i suggest to try commonqt for a GUI 11:52:40 -!- ehu [~ehu@31.137.202.20] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:52:58 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-58.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 11:53:09 it doesn't have "bare references to struct types are deprecated." warnings anymore! 11:53:26 stassats: all I want is to draw ttf text to the screen and handle input, I guess commonqt could do this as well 11:53:38 stassats: how does it do in terms of speed? 11:53:42 hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@46.233.252.39] has joined #lisp 11:54:10 quite well 11:54:30 Greetings. 11:56:02 do not take my question as the indication that it doesn't work on windows, it does, just that it's harder to get all the required libraries 11:56:29 stassats: I'm already somewhat familiar with SDL because I used it in Haskell, but I'll give CommonQt a look 11:57:00 have you seen https://github.com/lispgames/cl-sdl2 ? 11:57:27 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-58.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:57:43 stassats: not yet! very interesting, thanks 11:58:49 stassats: I can't find the documentation on the commonqt page, do you have a link? 11:59:10 the page is the only documentation 11:59:22 the rest you can pick up through the examples 11:59:37 or the cpp qt docs I guess :) 11:59:55 naturally 12:00:15 Is it possible to do scan but collect all matched groups instead? 12:00:21 Ah. 12:00:29 Do scan in cl-ppcre. 12:01:28 testuser1 [a403fa86@gateway/web/freenode/ip.164.3.250.134] has joined #lisp 12:02:07 (mapcar (curry #'cl-ppcre:scan-to-strings regex) (cl-ppcre:all-matches-as-strings regex string)) just feels very wrong. 12:02:20 joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@086.112-30-64.ftth.swbr.surewest.net] has joined #lisp 12:02:35 -!- przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:03:01 what do you want to do? 12:05:20 I want to parse strings like: "something:anything foo:bar another-thing baz:\"value with spaces\"". I've already written regex that parses it but now I need to get only specific groups instead of all match. 12:05:41 przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has joined #lisp 12:05:49 -!- nipra [~nipra@61.12.27.114] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:06:20 I tried to write parser without regular expressions, but regex is way simpler to read and understand in my case. 12:06:40 zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has joined #lisp 12:08:30 -!- kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:08:40 you may have a hard time parsing "value with spaces" if you also want to have \" inside it 12:08:59 i.e. \"value with\\\" spaces\\\"\" 12:09:25 with regexes, that is 12:10:19 -!- przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 12:11:54 Nah, it doesn't contain \. 12:12:14 (at least it shouldn't) 12:12:43 " and \ are forbidden inside quotes. 12:13:04 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-131-106.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:13:53 przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has joined #lisp 12:14:08 segv- [~mb@95-91-243-207-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 12:14:35 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:14:55 hitecnologys: perhaps you want ppcre:do-register-groups? 12:15:09 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 12:16:09 hitecnologys: (ppcre:do-register-groups (value) ("z:(\\w+)" "z:a z:b") (print value)) => "a" "b" 12:16:49 stassats: oh, yeah, that's exactly what I need. Thanks a lot. 12:18:08 even (ppcre:do-register-groups ((#'parse-integer value)) ("z:(\\w+)" "z:123") (print value)) => 123 12:20:00 Huh, that's cool. Even better than method which I used before. 12:22:17 stassats: the syntax of escaped strings is regular. Nobody would have a hard time _scanning_ them, much less _parsing_ them. 12:23:08 /"\([^\\"]\|\\.\)*"/ 12:23:11 trivial. 12:24:05 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-101-9.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:24:11 -!- Neptu_ is now known as Neptu 12:24:13 hitecnologys: your example looks suspiciously like lisp tokens. Can't you just use the lisp reader to parse it? 12:24:30 -!- mhi^ [~mhi@cable-158-181-76-3.cust.telecolumbus.net] has left #lisp 12:25:22 ogamita: I thought about that but I don't think that would be usable for people that are not familiar with Lisp. 12:26:07 ogamita: I'm writing language for search queries. 12:26:13 right. Anyways it's not the most complex thing to parse. 12:26:59 Sure, writing regex was trivial. 12:30:13 bondar [~bondar@197.155.70.178] has joined #lisp 12:34:04 dcguru [~chatzilla@66.129.60.130] has joined #lisp 12:34:08 normanrichards [~normanric@70.114.215.220] has joined #lisp 12:37:07 Munksgaard [~philip@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 12:40:56 -!- jewel [~jewel@105-237-57-251.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 12:41:40 Hm, could somebody help me a bit with regexp? 12:43:25 charlie [~charlie@adsl-74-179-17-164.bna.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 12:43:29 -!- charlie is now known as cmack 12:43:41 -!- bondar [~bondar@197.155.70.178] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:44:06 Everything works great but I'm not satisfied with: ((?:[^"\s]+)|(?:"[^\\"]+")). It grabs quotes. Is it somehow solvable without adding third/named group? 12:44:53 -!- ehu` [~ehu@31.136.73.182] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:47:52 ogamita: does it work on \\\\\" ? 12:51:14 hitecnologys: what do you want to match? 12:51:23 -!- joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@086.112-30-64.ftth.swbr.surewest.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:51:44 hitecnologys: the second ?: could be moved in (assuming i'm remembering the precedence of | correctly: 12:51:45 joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@086.112-30-64.ftth.swbr.surewest.net] has joined #lisp 12:52:05 ((?:[^"\s]+)|"([^\\"]+)") 12:52:07 stassats: yes. it matches \.\.\. 12:52:17 stassats: I want to match either foo:bar or foo:"bar" excluding quotes. 12:52:26 so $1 is the whole thing, and $2, if it matches, is the thing between the quotes 12:52:37 hitecnologys: a simple parser would be cleaner... 12:53:29 segv-: I doubt that. key:value is not everything I need to parse. 12:53:33 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-58.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 12:54:03 hitecnologys: well, if it's even more complicated, and you're having problems getting the simpler regexp to work...all the more reason to write a parser 12:54:17 -!- maxter [~maxter@gaffeless.chaperon.volia.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 12:54:18 /"\([^\\"]\|\\.\)*"/ in string is "\"\\([^\\\\\"]\\|\\\\.\\)*\"" and (string-match "\"\\([^\\\\\"]\\|\\\\.\\)*\"" "\"\\\\\\\\\\\"\"") --> 0 12:54:58 (insert "\"\\\\\\\\\\\"\"") : "\\\\\"" 12:55:07 segv-: that's not a real problem, I just don't like quotes. 12:55:30 then strip them afterwards, (string-trim '(#\") match) 12:55:52 it is certainyl possible to write a single regexp that does exactly what you want, but it won't be pretty... 12:56:00 Yeah, that's what I do now. 12:56:10 maxter [~maxter@gaffeless.chaperon.volia.net] has joined #lisp 12:56:34 -!- dcguru [~chatzilla@66.129.60.130] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90.1 [Firefox 23.0.1/20130902133717]] 12:56:39 I just wanted to know how to do this with regexp out of curiosity. 12:57:18 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 12:57:19 #?rx/ [^:]+ : (?: " ([^"]+) " ? ([^\s]+) ) / 12:57:56 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-58.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:58:11 assuming [^:] is all you need to match the package part and [^\s] and [^"] are equivalent to match the symbol part 12:58:18 -!- kwmiebach [~kwmiebach@xdsl-87-79-132-1.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:58:40 kwmiebach [~kwmiebach@xdsl-213-168-116-236.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 12:58:56 if you really want to allow escaping of #\" via #\\, and escpaing of #\\ via itself, it'll require some negative look behind: 12:59:55 -!- oleo_ [d4b81ecd@gateway/web/freenode/ip.212.184.30.205] has quit [] 13:00:14 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 13:01:01 boian [~boian@5.53.168.6] has joined #lisp 13:01:17 #?rx/" ((? will match #\" followed by a sequnce of #\" which aren't immediately preceded by a #\\ and finally a #\" 13:01:56 Hm. 13:03:20 scampbell [~scampbell@mail.scampbell.net] has joined #lisp 13:04:19 Well, matching positively [^\\"] or \\. seems much more easy. 13:05:28 segv-: the difficuly occurs when you want to match other characters than ". then you must also exclude \. 13:07:43 ogamita: but [^\\"] is not correct (assuming you want to allow escaped " 13:07:48 -!- add^_ [~user@m176-70-201-126.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 13:07:57 foo:"bar\"bar" 13:08:10 you could say screw it and just parse that as foo:"bar\" i'm ok with that... 13:08:17 lyanchih [~lyanchih@114-34-99-241.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 13:08:24 segv-: see my regexp above! 13:08:33 I don't need \" really... 13:08:52 (string-match "\"\\([^\\\\\"]\\|\\\\.\\)*\"" "foo:\"bar\\\"bar\"") --> 4 13:08:59 hi segv- :) 13:09:49 ogamita: your regexp above will fail on "bar\" 13:10:01 hm, maybe not. 13:10:48 This is not a valid string. 13:10:57 So happily, it fails. 13:10:59 add^_ [~user@m176-70-201-126.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 13:10:59 -!- rrs [~rrs@c-24-128-48-55.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:11:37 i used to think this problem (escaping quotes in strings via a regexp) wasn't solvable without negative look behind 13:11:39 why did i think that? 13:11:47 -!- Karl_dscc [~localhost@p5DD9D226.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:12:10 teggi [~teggi@113.173.7.117] has joined #lisp 13:12:24 Well, negative look behind would be positive look ahead, so it's ok. 13:12:50 negative look ahead would be look behind, and this is not necessary. 13:13:09 -!- przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 13:13:20 -!- Jubb [~Jubb@pool-71-178-197-128.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 13:13:31 -!- ubolonto` [~user@117.1.190.134] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:13:35 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@70.114.215.220] has quit [] 13:14:15 Jubb [~Jubb@pool-71-178-197-128.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:15:38 OK, looks like it's better just to use trim. Thanks for help. 13:16:27 -!- Munksgaard [~philip@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:16:54 eudoxia [~eudoxia@r186-52-161-115.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 13:17:10 ogamita: cool, your regexp is much simpler and works just as well. 13:18:15 przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has joined #lisp 13:18:31 -!- Jubb [~Jubb@pool-71-178-197-128.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:19:09 segv-: but which is more efficient? 13:22:09 -!- syrinx [~quassel@unaffiliated/syrinx-/x-4255893] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:22:52 -!- boian [~boian@5.53.168.6] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 13:22:57 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-58.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:23:27 boian [~boian@5.53.168.6] has joined #lisp 13:26:24 the one that avoids backtracking? 13:26:57 -!- foreignFunction [~niksaak@ip-4761.sunline.net.ua] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:27:19 ogamita: they're basically the same as far as backtracking is concerned (at least in cl-ppcre) 13:27:23 Munksgaard [~philip@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 13:27:31 -!- boian [~boian@5.53.168.6] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:27:45 segv-: yes, good regexp engine can reduce them to the same. those sufficiently smart compilers 13:27:51 but the negative-look-behind probably has some extra overhead 13:28:15 ogamita: you can't answer the "which is more efficient" questions without refering to a specific implementation either. 13:28:43 Well, I'd call bugged an implementation that wouldn't produce a O(n) process for my regexp. 13:28:55 normanrichards [~normanric@mobile-166-147-066-219.mycingular.net] has joined #lisp 13:29:30 chrisdone [~chrisdone@unaffiliated/chrisdone] has joined #lisp 13:29:42 in case it's of interest: http://ircbrowse.net/pdfs/lisp/unique 13:29:48 -!- ceverett [~ceverett@FL1-119-244-165-183.okn.mesh.ad.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:29:58 foreignFunction [~niksaak@ip-4761.sunline.net.ua] has joined #lisp 13:30:36 ogamita: idem for the negative look-behind 13:30:57 Shinmera [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 13:31:01 boian [~boian@5.53.168.6] has joined #lisp 13:31:10 but the memory usage will be different (i think), and the compiled form may be different. so if it's 2O(n) or 18(n) i can't say 13:33:26 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-67-9.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:33:32 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-67-9.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 13:33:59 -!- lyanchih [~lyanchih@114-34-99-241.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Quit: lyanchih] 13:35:01 fortitude [~mts@rrcs-24-97-165-124.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:35:21 ikki [~ikki@201.141.68.216] has joined #lisp 13:36:31 -!- MoHaX [~luke@178.120.187.231] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:37:23 #?x/"[^"\\]*(?:\\.[^"\\]*)*"/ looks faster 13:41:26 -!- hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@46.233.252.39] has quit [Quit: hitecnologys] 13:43:43 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-58.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:44:13 hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@46.233.252.39] has joined #lisp 13:45:17 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-58.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:45:44 -!- sellout- [~Adium@c-98-245-81-139.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:46:13 LiamH [~healy@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 13:46:24 iAran [~whimse@114.113.197.132] has joined #lisp 13:47:07 What is the performance of CL-PPCRE in comparison to other regexes? 13:47:20 Did anyone publish any tests? 13:47:45 loke: edi did when he first wrote it. it was comparable to perl 13:48:00 I see 13:48:18 He found bugs in perl's regex engine with it. I think it's documented on the cl-ppcre page. 13:48:28 you can find good papers to do much better than that if you remove support for backtracking (IIRC) 13:48:58 http://swtch.com/~rsc/regexp/regexp1.html 13:49:02 I tend to use it a lot. Othen in cases where things like split-sequence would be just as functional. Now, I'm writing an application that will run on a hosting provider that charges per CPU hour, which means that minimising the CPU usage is always good. 13:49:47 never use regexp if you can use something simpler like a split, really 13:49:53 just for code maintainance sake 13:50:30 I find using regexes to be much more easy to deal with (and more robust) than split-strings 13:50:40 But perhaps I'm in the minority 13:50:48 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-58.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:51:06 while I tend to disagree with people who dislike loop and format because they implement their own strange DSL, I really go with the "not *this* complex DSL please" when it comes to regexp 13:51:16 i always just use ppcre:split 13:51:16 -!- iAran [~whimse@114.113.197.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:52:11 if i can't avoid splitting anything, that is 13:52:33 both split-sequence and and ppcre:split are slower than not splitting 13:52:49 or when i don't care about performance 13:53:01 hehe, I said that in a talk related to SQL performances too 13:53:21 the best way to optimize a query is to not execute it 13:54:34 I will have to understand how to effectively avoid memory copying and consing in CL sometimes soon, that said, because I'm sure pgloader could still be way faster than it is 13:54:44 -!- motionman [~motionman@unaffiliated/motionman] has quit [Quit: tschüß] 13:55:15 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r186-52-161-115.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:55:34 dim: well, you can always use the list-syntax for the regexes in cl-ppcre 13:55:55 (12978585 rows converted from MySQL to PostgreSQL in less than 11m42s, 3GB of data plus parallel building of indexes for 6.4GB of data, that's 18493 rows/sec average, I'm pretty sure it could be way better) 13:56:07 loke: yeah I've been using that a lot recently 13:56:17 but in a ABNF to cl-ppcre parser generator 13:56:18 dim: I find it to be way too verbose. 13:56:36 I for some reason have little problems reading regexes 13:56:43 -!- Shinmera [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 13:56:52 well in that case I'm not maintaining the s-exp code, just generating it from a syntax description 13:57:40 Karl_dscc [~localhost@p5DD9D226.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 13:57:41 list syntax is useful for (ppcre:split '(:sequence arbitrary-string) ...) 13:57:45 Shinmera [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 13:57:49 regexp means string escaping hell, although I think cl-interpol can help with that 13:58:33 fair enough. to each his own and so on. :-) 13:58:43 exactly 14:01:20 -!- kirin` [telex@gateway/shell/anapnea.net/x-inrwuppmdkahhyna] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:02:06 -!- Shinmera [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:02:37 kirin` [telex@gateway/shell/anapnea.net/x-hhvbstjbmfokboas] has joined #lisp 14:02:40 -!- testuser1 [a403fa86@gateway/web/freenode/ip.164.3.250.134] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 14:02:49 rrs [~rrs@76.191.32.18] has joined #lisp 14:03:59 drmeister [~drmeister@166.137.87.121] has joined #lisp 14:04:11 Shinmera [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 14:04:12 Cymew [~user@fw01d.snowmen.se] has joined #lisp 14:06:32 dim: you don't need to write regexp as strings, you can have a reader macro to write them, eg. as /\.|"/ 14:06:55 ogamita: that's what cl-interpol is providing, right? 14:07:04 Ah! Good then. 14:07:54 have a read of http://weitz.de/cl-interpol/ 14:07:58 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@166.137.87.121] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:09:15 drmeister [~drmeister@166.137.87.121] has joined #lisp 14:09:44 -!- spacefrogg_ [~spacefrog@unaffiliated/spacefrogg] has quit [Quit: spacefrogg_] 14:09:52 -!- boian [~boian@5.53.168.6] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 14:10:24 Does this mean what I think it means: "Returns a production for non-terminal symbol with right-hand-side derives (a list of symbols). Action is the associated action, and should be a function; it defaults to #'list. Action-form should be a form that evaluates to action in a null lexical environment; if null (the default), the production (and hence any grammar or parser that uses it) will not be fasdumpable." 14:10:28 boian [~boian@5.53.168.6] has joined #lisp 14:10:33 -!- boian [~boian@5.53.168.6] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:10:38 This is from the cl-yacc documentation and I'm trying to compile-file a grammar. 14:11:02 boian [~boian@5.53.168.6] has joined #lisp 14:11:13 Does it mean that every action function DEFUN needs to be wrapped with (eval-when (:compile-toplevel :load-toplevel :execute) (DEFUN action ...))? 14:11:31 Because that works but I want to be sure I understand it correctly. 14:11:35 drmeister: I switched away from cl-yacc to esrap and life feels really good now. it's much easier to manage the grammar productions with using esrap. http://nikodemus.github.io/esrap/ 14:11:45 Because I don't understand why compiling a grammar requires this. 14:12:03 dim: Thanks for the pointer - I'll investigate it. 14:12:16 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 14:13:56 Is esrap a drop-in replacement for cl-yacc? What is "pacrat parsing"? 14:14:09 it's quite different, not a drop in at all 14:14:25 it's another way to write parsers generators 14:14:26 drmeister: it's "packrat" 14:14:35 the idea is to write composable rules 14:14:36 Sure - what is it? 14:14:41 I'm reading the thesis now. 14:14:42 just look at the examples 14:14:44 -!- chrisdone [~chrisdone@unaffiliated/chrisdone] has left #lisp 14:15:14 drmeister: i don't see any eval-when involved in that quote, just don't use closures 14:15:37 I found 2 bits missing in esrap btw: M-. support for defrule, and Emacs indentation support for (:destructuring (...) ...) forms 14:15:58 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-101-9.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 14:16:52 scmaccal [~scmaccal@169.244.99.10] has joined #lisp 14:17:40 drmeister: you can do the eval-when, or you can put the actions in a separate file, loaded before compiling the code using the macro. 14:18:27 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@mobile-166-147-066-219.mycingular.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:18:33 oudeis [~oudeis@bzq-218-0-98.cablep.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 14:18:40 ogamita: Got it - thanks. 14:19:14 whimse [~whimse@58.101.24.47] has joined #lisp 14:19:50 sellout- [~Adium@c-71-56-237-72.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:20:02 -!- whimse is now known as iAran 14:20:02 -!- iAran [~whimse@58.101.24.47] has left #lisp 14:20:39 iAran [~whimse@58.101.24.47] has joined #lisp 14:21:26 nilsi_ [~nilsi@221.146.90.62] has joined #lisp 14:21:43 Bike: Isn't that what "Action-form should be a form that evaluates to action in a null lexical environment; if null (the default), the production (and hence any grammar or parser that uses it) will not be fasdumpable." means? 14:22:20 i might be missing something. 14:22:35 If I compile-file a file that contains (defun action-x ...) then 'action-x doesn't get defined in the null lexical environment unless I wrap it in (eval-when (:compile-toplevel ...)...) 14:23:11 Kabaka [~Kabaka@botters/kabaka] has joined #lisp 14:23:21 (defun foo ...) defines foo in the null lexical environment. adding the eval-when just makes it happen during compilation instead of loadtime 14:23:25 -!- Ralt_ is now known as Ralt 14:24:00 Bike: But the DEFUN isn't evaluated if you COMPILE-FILE the file - or should it be? 14:24:09 not evaluated at compile time 14:25:33 Right - and it appears that cl-yacc needs the functions to be defined for some reason when you compile-file a file that contains the grammar. Why this is so I don't understand. 14:25:35 dtw [~dtw@pdpc/supporter/active/dtw] has joined #lisp 14:25:39 stassats / ogamita: because i apparently have way too much time on my hands: http://paste.lisp.org/display/139368 14:26:15 (negative look behind is just a little bit faster, but not enough to merit the more complicated regexp) 14:26:30 i couldn't guess. 14:27:44 -!- oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-163-240.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:27:50 Well - I'll probably be leaving "cl-yacc" behind to travel to the wonderful world of "esrap" so it's mute. 14:28:02 segv-: can you also try #?x/"[^"\\]*(?:\\.[^"\\]*)*"/ ? 14:28:20 oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-163-240.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:29:04 segv-: and your invocation of cl-ppcre is bad 14:29:23 stassats: oh yeah? 14:29:34 rpg [~rpg@198-74-7-110.fttp.usinternet.com] has joined #lisp 14:29:38 either write "=([^=_]|_.)*=" directly, or do (defparameter *positive* (ppcre:create-scanner "=([^=_]|_.)*=")) 14:30:11 ah, right. 14:30:29 and i wouldn't use scan-TO-STRINGS to avoid GC affecting timmeints 14:30:34 timeings 14:30:51 bbl 14:31:26 stassats: not sure about that last one, the amout of memory generated to get the stings back (which is soemthing i always do) is actually part of the timing 14:31:29 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@166.137.87.121] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:31:33 i mean, it's work that has to be done 14:32:10 you will get string indexes, there won't be any difference in that regard 14:32:15 well but how do you know that the GV time is included or not in the test? maybe add an explicit gc call? 14:32:19 -!- schoppenhauer [~quassel@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.] 14:32:54 segv-: all scan-to-strings is calling SCAN and then doing subseq 14:32:57 does 14:35:06 antgreen [~green@173.206.165.73] has joined #lisp 14:35:22 normanrichards [~normanric@rrcs-108-178-120-144.sw.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:35:42 -!- nilsi_ [~nilsi@221.146.90.62] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:37:09 nilsi_ [~nilsi@221.146.90.62] has joined #lisp 14:39:21 -!- ivan\ [~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:40:41 synacktic [~jordyd@unaffiliated/jordyd] has joined #lisp 14:40:48 -!- przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:41:15 stassats: updated code http://paste.lisp.org/+2ZJC/2 14:41:32 and results: http://paste.lisp.org/+2ZJC/3 14:42:01 (your regexp and the hand parser are almost the same, negative is faster, positive is slower) 14:42:15 (not much a difference between them all though) 14:46:03 drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has joined #lisp 14:46:30 ivan\ [~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001] has joined #lisp 14:47:19 przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has joined #lisp 14:47:45 Fare [fare@nat/google/x-ozsozjsqjvzllsei] has joined #lisp 14:48:17 yonkeltron [~user@yonkeltron.new.xen.prgmr.com] has joined #lisp 14:48:22 -!- yonkeltron [~user@yonkeltron.new.xen.prgmr.com] has quit [Changing host] 14:48:22 yonkeltron [~user@unaffiliated/yonkeltron] has joined #lisp 14:49:23 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 14:52:15 desophos [~desophos@n138h11.dhcp.oxy.edu] has joined #lisp 14:53:41 -!- boian [~boian@5.53.168.6] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 14:54:14 boian [~boian@5.53.168.6] has joined #lisp 14:54:19 -!- irq0 [~irq0@amy.irq0.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 14:54:30 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.141.68.216] has quit [Quit: Saliendo] 14:55:40 -!- zickzackv [~faot@port-92-198-30-130.static.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:57:50 -!- Shinmera [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:58:23 Shinmera [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 14:58:56 -!- boian [~boian@5.53.168.6] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:59:54 -!- cmack [~charlie@adsl-74-179-17-164.bna.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 15:02:18 -!- teggi [~teggi@113.173.7.117] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:05:02 -!- Shinmera [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:05:22 -!- ludocode_ [~quassel@206-248-156-157.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [] 15:05:38 ludocode [~quassel@206-248-156-157.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 15:06:40 Shinmera [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 15:09:01 irq0 [~irq0@amy.irq0.org] has joined #lisp 15:12:03 didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has joined #lisp 15:12:44 -!- pavelpenev [~quassel@melontech.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:14:52 heh, impressive for the funny papers: http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=7732 15:17:10 -!- srcerer_ is now known as srcerer 15:21:28 Nuupi [~IceChat9@a91-154-110-47.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 15:24:48 boian [~boian@5.53.168.6] has joined #lisp 15:26:19 -!- segv- [~mb@95-91-243-207-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:26:47 -!- maxter [~maxter@gaffeless.chaperon.volia.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:27:13 maxter [~maxter@gaffeless.chaperon.volia.net] has joined #lisp 15:27:27 segv- [~mb@95-91-243-207-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 15:27:40 svs_ [~svs@104-252-AGAVEBB-NM.abq.nm.agavebb.net] has joined #lisp 15:30:18 Vivitron [~Vivitron@c-50-172-44-193.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:30:42 -!- Okasu [~1@unaffiliated/okasu] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:30:48 -!- codeburg [~folker@194.6.195.43] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:35:02 -!- Munksgaard [~philip@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:35:51 -!- scmaccal [~scmaccal@169.244.99.10] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:35:51 -!- Codynyx [~cody@c-75-72-187-16.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:36:22 -!- hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@46.233.252.39] has quit [Quit: hitecnologys] 15:37:28 hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@46.233.252.39] has joined #lisp 15:37:35 Codynyx [~cody@c-75-72-187-16.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:38:11 tolk [~user@host175.190-138-194.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 15:38:38 -!- arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-tsxauqpbinwhgttp] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:40:41 TDog [~chatzilla@65.129.207.43] has joined #lisp 15:45:31 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-67-9.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:46:27 scmaccal [~scmaccal@169.244.99.10] has joined #lisp 15:49:05 apfel [~apfel@p54998477.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 15:49:41 -!- ics [~ics@ool-18bf6d86.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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Even just a "send me a tarball of last month" would be nice 17:34:22 *jasom* doesn't see drewc 17:34:31 -!- nilsi_ [~nilsi@221.146.90.62] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:34:32 kwmiebach [~kwmiebach@xdsl-213-196-216-245.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 17:36:17 danlentz [~danlentz@c-68-37-70-235.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:36:31 -!- Sagane [~Sagane@177.100-226-89.dsl.completel.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:38:45 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:41:52 -!- xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.163.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 17:43:46 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@rrcs-108-178-120-144.sw.biz.rr.com] has quit [] 17:46:41 DalekBaldwin [~Adium@74.212.183.186] has joined #lisp 17:47:07 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:48:39 -!- ck`` [~ck@dslb-094-219-251-096.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:50:22 Harag [~Thunderbi@ti-224-50-85.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:55:11 joe9 [~user@ip70-179-153-227.fv.ks.cox.net] has joined #lisp 17:55:13 edgar-rft [~GOD@HSI-KBW-109-193-013-113.hsi7.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 17:59:07 mc40 [~mc@164.138.80.251] has joined #lisp 17:59:22 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-182-141-61.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 18:02:25 -!- Harag [~Thunderbi@ti-224-50-85.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 18:03:43 Harag [~Thunderbi@ti-224-50-85.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 18:07:09 -!- zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 18:12:15 -!- scmaccal [~scmaccal@169.244.99.10] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 18:13:23 scmaccal_ [~scmaccal@169.244.99.10] has joined #lisp 18:13:42 -!- scmaccal_ [~scmaccal@169.244.99.10] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:14:23 scmaccal [~scmaccal@169.244.99.10] has joined #lisp 18:15:34 -!- seangrove [~user@c-69-181-197-122.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:18:08 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:18:39 -!- scmaccal [~scmaccal@169.244.99.10] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:18:42 scmaccal_ [~scmaccal@169.244.99.10] has joined #lisp 18:19:25 rotwatsb [~stephen@rrcs-24-213-161-140.nyc.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:20:15 hey, i've got a question 18:20:35 rotwatsb: Ask away. 18:20:54 i write a function - like so 18:21:17 (defun eval-the-crap (tonto) (tonto)) 18:21:42 but the interpreter doesn't like this 18:22:30 it says the function TONTO is not defined and it also says that variable TONTO is not used 18:22:50 functions and variables live in different lands 18:22:54 -!- patrickwonders [~patrickwo@user-38q42ns.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Quit: patrickwonders] 18:23:34 -!- beach [~user@ABordeaux-651-1-170-195.w90-5.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 18:23:40 patrickwonders [~patrickwo@user-38q42ns.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 18:24:20 right, k - i still don't see why this function shouldn't just evaluate whatever expression i pass in 18:24:55 like: (eval-the-crap (quote (+ 2 3))) 18:24:59 because it doesn't work that way, if you want to evaluate arbitrary forms, there's EVAL 18:25:09 ah, ok 18:25:09 if you want to call functions, there's FUNCALL 18:25:52 oudeis [~oudeis@62-90-110-122.barak.net.il] has joined #lisp 18:25:58 -!- ludocode [~quassel@206-248-156-157.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:26:01 -!- lyanchih [~lyanchih@114-34-99-241.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Quit: lyanchih] 18:26:02 -!- mc40 [~mc@164.138.80.251] has quit [Quit: mc40] 18:26:42 great, thanks, problem solved 18:27:29 but EVAL is usually avoid in general programs 18:27:38 whatever 18:27:46 i'un give 18:28:30 -!- Vivitron [~Vivitron@c-50-172-44-193.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:28:41 well, it only makes your programs less efficient, less secure, harder to maintain 18:28:45 no big deal 18:29:01 nope, not in my case 18:30:14 what about timer threads? where can i get one them? 18:31:09 -!- Harag [~Thunderbi@ti-224-50-85.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Quit: Harag] 18:31:30 drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has joined #lisp 18:31:39 Harag [~Thunderbi@ti-224-50-85.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 18:32:38 -!- gko [gko@2400:8900::f03c:91ff:fe70:e605] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:32:50 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-101-9.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:34:50 rotwatsb: what specifically do you mean by timer threads? 18:35:33 i guess i just want a sleep function 18:35:36 gko [gko@2400:8900::f03c:91ff:fe70:e605] has joined #lisp 18:35:42 rotwatsb: (sleep) 18:35:51 clhs sleep 18:35:52 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_sleep.htm 18:36:31 rotwatsb: what you probably want instead of eval-the-crap is funcall-the-crap 18:36:44 so (defun funcall-the-crap (tonto) (funcall tonto)) 18:36:48 -!- Codynyx [~cody@c-75-72-187-16.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:36:54 then (funcall-the-crap (lambda () (+ 2 3))) 18:37:21 oh gawd -yes 18:37:50 Codynyx [~cody@c-75-72-187-16.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:38:21 rotwatsb: it soulds like you have a javascript background? (lambda ...) defines an anonymous function like function() { } in javascript 18:38:38 -!- quotemstr [~quotemstr@dancol.org] has left #lisp 18:39:57 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-101-9.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 18:43:42 milosn_ [~milosn@user-5af50a61.broadband.tesco.net] has joined #lisp 18:46:05 klltkr [~klltkr@unaffiliated/klltkr] has joined #lisp 18:46:29 -!- milosn [~milosn@user-5af50088.broadband.tesco.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:47:59 ehaliewicz [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 18:48:23 drmeiste_ [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has joined #lisp 18:50:25 -!- rotwatsb [~stephen@rrcs-24-213-161-140.nyc.biz.rr.com] has left #lisp 18:51:40 k0001 [~k0001@host60.181-1-204.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 18:55:10 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 18:55:23 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:58:54 -!- EvW [~Thunderbi@a82-92-190-215.adsl.xs4all.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:59:29 EvW [~Thunderbi@a82-92-190-215.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 19:00:17 woodz [~wooodz@host86-136-232-156.range86-136.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 19:00:26 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:01:43 -!- woodz [~wooodz@host86-136-232-156.range86-136.btcentralplus.com] has quit [] 19:08:03 synacktic [~jordyd@unaffiliated/jordyd] has joined #lisp 19:08:59 drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has joined #lisp 19:09:26 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-67-9.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:10:19 dim: I found a calculator demo for esrap (https://github.com/guitarvydas/peg/blob/master/arith.lisp) Is that how it's done - you use :destructure to extract the values of the nonterminals/terminals in the rule and the body of the :destructure thingy is the action? 19:10:24 pbgc [~pbgc@bl20-180-245.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 19:10:53 yeah, the sources have more examples, and I have an ABNF parser generator using it if you want 19:10:59 nug700 [~nug700@209-181-102-38.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 19:11:06 in the esrap sources you will see a s-exp parser among others 19:11:21 przl [~przlrkt@p57923FFD.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 19:11:30 https://github.com/nikodemus/esrap/blob/master/tests.lisp 19:11:45 https://github.com/nikodemus/esrap/blob/master/example-sexp.lisp 19:11:58 dim: What is the ABNF parser generator for? To create something like Prolog? 19:12:43 dim: Are you nikodemus? 19:12:48 I wanted to include in my pgloader tool a syslog mode, where you can throw UDP syslog packets at it and it will match and parse them then store interesting fields into the database, in streaming 19:12:52 I'm not ;-) 19:13:37 syslog grammar is complex and exists in various forms, so I wanted to give users the opportunity to tweak it... and the RFC and other docs for the syslog grammar are all using the ABNF syntax/description 19:14:07 -!- scampbell [~scampbell@mail.scampbell.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:14:08 read http://git.tapoueh.org/?p=pgloader.git;a=blob;f=lib/abnf/abnf.lisp;h=c544a6f9770ae3ec7c6d0c905d792e1c8804b15e;hb=HEAD if you want to know more about it 19:14:17 Thanks - I'm so used to yacc/bison style parsers I didn't think there was any other way. This is a pretty different way of writing parsers isn't it? 19:14:51 my ABNF parser generator generates regexps to use with cl-ppcre 19:15:12 in the REPL, do (in-package abnf) then (parse 'expression-name "some test case") to unveil it 19:15:30 it's pretty different and the composability makes it really easy to maintain 19:15:41 smithzv [~user@duan145-236-dhcp.colorado.edu] has joined #lisp 19:15:44 I felt that the yacc way was too monolithic 19:16:09 What do you mean by "composability"? 19:16:24 and the lexer is really important and too hard to reason about separately when designing the parser and the language you want to parse at the same time, which I was doing for that command language I did for pgloader 19:16:34 you can compose rules 19:16:44 you can easily reuse rules in different contexts 19:17:02 I found it easier to do than with yacc, even if yacc makes it possible 19:17:36 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p57923FFD.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:17:56 Right - there is no separate lexer - you seem to build the parser up from recognizing individual characters - is that correct? What do I do about floating point numbers? Do I fish out a floating point rule from the examples? 19:21:02 handler-case vs handler-bind; any suggestions on deciding which one to use? 19:21:42 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@62-90-110-122.barak.net.il] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 19:21:55 drmeister: yeah I would do tha 19:22:18 -!- Patzy [~something@lns-bzn-51f-81-56-151-137.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:22:20 jasom: my very limited understanding is that you use handler-case if you can and resort to handler-bind for more complex processing 19:22:32 beware that I don't know what I'm talking about here 19:22:45 jasom: if you can't do what you do what you want with handler-case, use handler-bind 19:22:52 -!- jaimef [jaimef@dns.mauthesis.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 19:22:59 jaimef [jaimef@dns.mauthesis.com] has joined #lisp 19:23:02 jasom, handler-case 19:23:10 Patzy [~something@lns-bzn-51f-81-56-151-137.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 19:23:20 with handler-bind you have to do some sort of non-local exit and usually that isn't very clean 19:23:31 thanks 19:23:39 Quadrescence: wrong answer, handler-case doesn't replace handler-bind 19:23:49 stassats, uhhh, i just implied that 19:24:08 and you don't have to do non-local exits 19:24:31 no you don't have to, but then it will be declined, and the condition will continue propagating 19:24:39 which is Probably Not What You Want 19:24:42 and even if you want non-local exit, but want to execute the handler in the dynamic environment 19:25:10 mc40 [~mc40@164.138.80.251] has joined #lisp 19:25:10 -!- scmaccal_ [~scmaccal@169.244.99.10] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:25:13 dim: What happens when you write an inconsistent grammar that can be recognized multiple ways? As much as I loath debugging shift/reduce errors they are always due to my poor description of the grammar. 19:25:39 Quadrescence: how do you know what i want? 19:25:48 you enter the debugger with loads of detailed information 19:25:51 scmaccal [~scmaccal@169.244.99.10] has joined #lisp 19:26:00 see also the tracing facilities (that I didn't use yet) 19:26:03 stassats, if someone asks me "what do i want? handler-case or handler-bind?" the answer is usually "handler-case". 19:26:14 sellout- [~Adium@67.51.227.94] has joined #lisp 19:26:19 youlysses [~user@24-217-211-79.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 19:26:42 which is a wrong answer, which doesn't explain anything at all 19:27:13 stassats, i'm not in the business of rewriting the spec in the channel. whoever can read that if they want 19:27:19 as such, i don't think it's a wrong answer 19:27:22 I usually think about if I want the stack to unwind or do I want to call a restart programmatically. From what I understand handler-case unwinds and you can't call a lower level restart. Right? 19:27:26 -!- scmaccal [~scmaccal@169.244.99.10] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:27:37 nightshade427: right 19:27:37 a knowlegeable friend of mine always proposed a choice of "get started" answer and the "detailed explanation" one 19:27:43 scmaccal [~scmaccal@169.244.99.10] has joined #lisp 19:27:51 handler-bind executes in the dynamic environment from which the condition was executed 19:27:56 here it looks like "handler-case" is the "get started" answer 19:28:04 stassats: Thanks for the confirmation, just want to make sure I understood correctly :) 19:28:49 oh so handler-case is like a try/catch or try/except in other languages and handler-bind is the full blown condition system? 19:28:59 or probably not "the dynamic environment", but some other better term 19:29:01 dim: Thanks - I'll start refactoring my SMILES parser tonight and see how esrap works with it. 19:29:21 I know I like esrap, I hope you will find it more convenient than cl-yacc 19:33:09 -!- scmaccal [~scmaccal@169.244.99.10] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:33:36 scmaccal [~scmaccal@169.244.99.10] has joined #lisp 19:39:17 -!- scmaccal [~scmaccal@169.244.99.10] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:39:54 jasom (and whoever else): this is a draft paper I was writing, and I think going through it and understanding all bits will lead to a pretty decent understanding of things, though only informally and partially. https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/734346/dynamic-collect-draft.pdf 19:39:59 (corrections are welcome too) 19:40:24 qwebirc42274 [5990c09c@gateway/web/freenode/ip.89.144.192.156] has joined #lisp 19:41:13 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:41:39 Quadrescence: there's no in fact walking around the stack 19:42:22 you walk down the condition handler state, find the appropriate condition handler, and do a function call for the handler 19:42:31 condition handler stack 19:42:54 no other portions of the program stack are touched 19:43:37 scmaccal [~scmaccal@rrcs-184-74-70-24.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:45:04 stassats, I like to think the stack walking metaphor is more helpful, but I suspect you would respond to that with "but it's wrong, so it doesn't matter". 19:45:13 it was interesting looking at sbcl's implementation and finding it doesn't even use anything nonstandard, just special variables. so no stack or anything 19:45:29 (not counting dx-flet and float waits and little things like that) 19:46:06 -!- dtw [~dtw@pdpc/supporter/active/dtw] has quit [Quit: Zzzz] 19:46:28 Quadrescence: unless you define what walking the stack means, it's not a useful metaphor 19:47:45 stassats, I'd contest that, and say that the metaphor *has* helped people, in the sense that it allowed them to write code that employs conditions and restarts. 19:48:23 But I understand that you may not agree that that is helping, that a to-spec understanding is more important than shipping. :) 19:48:28 it seems very lie-to-children, and not in a very effective way 19:48:43 -!- ggole [~ggole@124-148-119-6.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [] 19:48:57 no, i want a how-to-actually-implement it understanding 19:49:16 I see. 19:49:17 i don't understand something unless i know how to replicate it on my own 19:49:21 i mean, how does a stack metaphor work with handler-bind to a closure from a totally different environment? 19:50:48 now, non-local exits are quite more complex 19:51:17 they do examine the whole stack, they do unbind all the variables, signal handlers, call the cleanup forms 19:53:20 -!- pbgc [~pbgc@bl20-180-245.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 19:53:39 basically, how i visualize the condition system, it's just a way to call some functions 19:55:24 -!- sellout- [~Adium@67.51.227.94] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:55:42 and the all beauty of the condition handling system is actually in the non-local exits, not signal passing 19:56:41 Quadrescence, shouldn't you be using CERROR, then? 19:56:51 or even SIGNAL ? 19:57:06 (outside of FATAL conditions) 19:57:52 and you should be using CALL-WITH style for WITH-DYNAMIC-COLLECTION 19:57:54 Fare, no because I don't want, in this case, unhandled conditions to go though. at the end there is a bit on a flag to set for ERROR vs SIGNAL 19:58:24 -!- klltkr [~klltkr@unaffiliated/klltkr] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:58:48 well, if it needs to be handled, CERROR, if it doesn't, SIGNAL 19:59:58 Fare, the point of using ERROR is that there isn't an option to continue, because there was an error in the actual logic in the source code 20:02:09 -!- qwebirc42274 [5990c09c@gateway/web/freenode/ip.89.144.192.156] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 20:02:36 Fare, and with respect to CALL-WITH style, maybe. That seems more idiomatic in Scheme than CL. :) 20:03:14 -!- foreignFunction [~niksaak@ip-4761.sunline.net.ua] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:04:02 foreignFunction [~niksaak@ip-4761.sunline.net.ua] has joined #lisp 20:04:46 drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has joined #lisp 20:05:14 macrobat [~beep@h-199-47.a328.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 20:05:48 -!- edgar-rft [~GOD@HSI-KBW-109-193-013-113.hsi7.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Quit: execution abandoned because computer exploded] 20:05:49 milosn [~milosn@user-5af50bff.broadband.tesco.net] has joined #lisp 20:07:23 why have a restart-case with a continue, then error? Isn't that tantamount to cerror? 20:07:25 sellout- [~Adium@67.51.227.94] has joined #lisp 20:07:43 it's more idiomatic in scheme, but it's still good style in CL 20:07:56 -!- milosn_ [~milosn@user-5af50a61.broadband.tesco.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:08:22 usually makes for smaller, faster, more traceable, debuggable and maintainable code. 20:09:14 -!- arnas [arnsa@78-63-18-208.static.zebra.lt] has quit [] 20:09:31 -!- ejohnson [~Thunderbi@c-67-181-201-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:11:01 scmaccal` [~user@rrcs-184-74-70-24.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:11:38 -!- scmaccal [~scmaccal@rrcs-184-74-70-24.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:11:56 scmaccal [~scmaccal@rrcs-184-74-70-24.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:12:32 (invoke-restart (find-restart 'continue m)) == (continue m) 20:15:17 Quadrescence: and you don't need the :test either 20:15:39 why not? 20:15:39 but you don't need restart-case at all, as Fare is saying 20:16:02 -!- CrazyEddy [~CrazyEddy@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 20:16:34 clhs restart-case 20:16:34 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_rst_ca.htm 20:16:35 If I signal a condition, and there are multiple, equivalent restarts, how do you know which one to invoke? 20:17:09 "If the restartable-form is a list whose car is any of the symbols signal, error, cerror, or warn (or is a macro form which macroexpands into such a list), then with-condition-restarts is used implicitly to associate the indicated restarts with the condition to be signaled." 20:17:09 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:17:39 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 20:19:11 -!- sdemarre [~serge@22.164-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:19:22 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:20:32 stassats, ah, so internally it's really doing something equivalent in functionality to the whole test thing? 20:20:50 -!- patrickwonders [~patrickwo@user-38q42ns.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Quit: patrickwonders] 20:21:14 only to (typep x 'condition) 20:22:49 so then isn't there still a problem? when a restart is invoked, and there are several that can handle the condition, don't we need an extra bit of information to decide which one? 20:23:24 and instead of having two branches of creating a condition, you can (let ((condition (make-condition 'type :x y))) (if *x* (error condition) (signal condition))) 20:23:54 Quadrescence: typep doesn't do that either 20:24:04 and the closes matching restart wins 20:24:21 stassats, but I also have an (eq id (condition-id condition)) 20:24:54 stassats, closest to what? Closest to the site of the error? 20:25:49 the only way you will see two such errors, is that if you have a handler-bind which handles it and signals its own error of such type 20:25:56 two such restarts 20:26:24 so, unless you're really that paranoid, the only thing you need is CERROR 20:27:35 stassats, the point is that these things should be able to be composed, and each of them uses the same type of condition, *and* innermost signals should be able to reach the outermost handler 20:28:25 If you're saying the restart closest to the site of the error is the one that is guaranteed to get invoked, then you all are right, CERROR would do and a lot of cruft can be eliminated 20:28:59 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:29:16 it's the most recently bound restart, what are you saying about sites? 20:29:49 Bike, well I asked the definition of "nearest" and stassats ignored that. 20:29:55 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:30:10 sorry not giving my full attention 20:30:18 you're not required to 20:30:20 the condition system isn't really lexical, so, it's dynamically "closest" 20:30:32 clhs 9.1.4 20:30:32 Signaling and Handling Conditions: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/09_ad.htm 20:31:25 and in fact, with-condition-restarts not only does check the type, but it checks condition for equality 20:31:39 so, your gensym trick is redundant 20:32:34 and even if there wasn't such thing, you could do (let ((condition (make-condition ...)) (.... (:test (lambda (x) (eq x condition)))))) instead of gensym 20:32:55 but that's exactly what with-condition-restarts 20:33:14 and handler-case with error/... 20:33:43 and cerror alone, naturally 20:34:31 boian [~boian@5.53.168.6] has joined #lisp 20:35:39 -!- Codynyx [~cody@c-75-72-187-16.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:35:51 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 20:36:54 klltkr [~klltkr@unaffiliated/klltkr] has joined #lisp 20:37:11 drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has joined #lisp 20:38:09 and, restarts are not the most efficient way to perform such things anyhow 20:38:17 patrickwonders [~patrickwo@user-38q42ns.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 20:38:30 i'd just have a special variable and push things onto it 20:39:07 Codynyx [~cody@c-75-72-187-16.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:39:28 -!- boian [~boian@5.53.168.6] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 20:41:47 -!- k0001 [~k0001@host60.181-1-204.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:41:58 Quadrescence: http://paste.lisp.org/display/139373 20:42:15 but, if you must complicate and slow down your code, maybe conditions are the best way to do that 20:42:54 ch077179 [~ch077179@unaffiliated/ch077179] has joined #lisp 20:45:25 -!- sellout- [~Adium@67.51.227.94] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:46:10 thanks, but that doesn't cover all the use cases 20:46:15 -!- Harag [~Thunderbi@ti-224-50-85.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 20:46:32 and for nested things: http://paste.lisp.org/display/139373#1 20:47:41 -!- Fare [fare@nat/google/x-ozsozjsqjvzllsei] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:48:02 and instead of tags, you can use variable names 20:49:54 i haven't really ever found conditions to be useful outside of error handling 20:53:21 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-181-24.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:55:04 -!- Codynyx [~cody@c-75-72-187-16.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:56:09 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:56:14 Codynyx [~cody@c-75-72-187-16.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:56:16 -!- scmaccal [~scmaccal@rrcs-184-74-70-24.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:57:08 bananagram [~bot@c-76-30-158-226.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:57:41 -!- didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:57:47 Quadrescence: which else user cases special variables do not cover for dynamic-collect? 20:59:54 since special variables is basically how restarts and handler-bind are implemented, i can't think of any 21:00:42 -!- knob [~knob@76.76.202.244] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:01:38 -!- Codynyx [~cody@c-75-72-187-16.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:03:31 -!- Nuupi [~IceChat9@a91-154-110-47.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Quit: Hello, 911? Yeah, it's caught in the window this time.] 21:06:10 Codynyx [~cody@c-75-72-187-16.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:10:13 -!- ch077179 [~ch077179@unaffiliated/ch077179] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 21:10:43 -!- MoALTz [~no@host86-142-120-246.range86-142.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:11:08 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:13:34 -!- mc40 [~mc40@164.138.80.251] has quit [Quit: mc40] 21:16:33 -!- prxq [~mommer@x2f68b61.dyn.telefonica.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:17:23 pbgc [~pbgc@bl20-180-245.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 21:18:04 MoALTz [~no@host86-142-120-246.range86-142.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 21:23:54 drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has joined #lisp 21:26:28 -!- ehaliewicz [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:26:54 ehaliewicz [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 21:30:28 airdisa_ 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[~jordyd@unaffiliated/jordyd] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:37:53 benny [~user@i577A728C.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 22:38:54 CrazyEddy [~CrazyEddy@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 22:39:37 tolk [~user@host175.190-138-194.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 22:46:40 -!- pbgc [~pbgc@2.81.180.245] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:47:37 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-67-9.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 22:52:08 -!- knob [~knob@66-50-73-194.prtc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:53:25 fridim_ [~fridim@bas2-montreal07-2925317643.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 22:53:52 ejohnson [~Thunderbi@c-67-181-201-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:54:46 -!- bitonic` [~user@xdsl-188-155-179-93.adslplus.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:54:47 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@93.113.190.121] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:55:11 jrghiglia [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-34-152-29.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 22:59:02 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-67-9.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:02:33 p_adams [~p_adams@24-107-140-111.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 23:03:11 pillton [~user@140.253.50.147] has joined #lisp 23:04:07 -!- Munksgaard [~philip@80-71-132-106.u.parknet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:11:54 quazimodo [~quazimodo@d110-33-227-98.bla801.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 23:14:30 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-67-9.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 23:16:47 jasom: swank:*communication-style* i think. 23:19:36 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:24:08 ghollisjr [~user@adsl-74-243-202-152.cae.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 23:24:39 got a strange situation with SLIME and SBCL here 23:25:56 i'm working on hdf5-cffi and when i call a c-function in SLIME, the code runs fine. but, in SBCL it seems the arguments are screwed up. 23:26:03 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@dsl-hkibrasgw3-58c156-108.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:26:09 anyone ever see something like this? 23:28:12 -!- DalekBaldwin [~Adium@74.212.183.186] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:29:13 to clarify: I'm using SBCL in both cases, but in one case I run plain sbcl and in the other I'm using SLIME as my interface to SBCL 23:29:39 gendl [~gendl@c-98-250-10-50.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:32:26 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-67-9.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:33:14 didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has joined #lisp 23:34:07 -!- sz0 [~textual@c-67-169-70-88.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com] 23:34:20 -!- Karl_dscc [~localhost@p5DD9D226.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:37:50 -!- p_adams [~p_adams@24-107-140-111.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.1] 23:38:05 p_adams [~p_adams@24-107-140-111.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 23:40:17 any of you do anything with CFFI? 23:41:29 ghollisjr: I call C functions with it 23:42:08 ever run into a situation where calling the function works in SLIME, but not in SBCL? (both times using SBCL) 23:42:48 ghollisjr: when that happens, usually it means that I'm running a different version in slime than at the command prompt 23:43:13 (e.g. I've compiled a defun, or slime dindn't reload because the compilation phase warned) 23:43:43 and by different version, I mean a different version of the code 23:46:20 -!- namtsui [~user@c-76-21-124-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:47:34 hmm strange, I've quit restarted slime and loaded the code with no problems, and still SBCL croaks 23:47:57 Is it the same sbcl version? 23:49:30 yep, 1.1.10 23:50:32 i just ask because sometimes i have /bin/sbcl in PATH and /usr/bin/sbcl for slime, or something 23:51:37 synacktic [~jordyd@unaffiliated/jordyd] has joined #lisp 23:51:38 i have those also, but they're identical files anyway 23:51:51 btw i suspect it's something to do with value conversion 23:52:28 since when I run the function, it complains of wrong values (which I give correctly, SLIME accepts and plain SBCL rejects) 23:54:27 namtsui [~user@c-76-21-124-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:55:08 -!- drmeiste_ [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:56:11 -!- p_adams [~p_adams@24-107-140-111.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.1]