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[~py@103.6.159.99] has joined #lisp 02:50:33 recycle [~recycle@2602:304:b2eb:e570:2d21:8622:f7ac:e8d6] has joined #lisp 02:51:35 recycle_ [~recycle@75-46-190-87.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:52:52 echo-area [~user@182.92.247.2] has joined #lisp 02:55:02 -!- recycle [~recycle@2602:304:b2eb:e570:2d21:8622:f7ac:e8d6] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:05:07 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:07:20 -!- Fare [fare@nat/google/x-uczibzapxkqqanzs] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:10:03 sellout- [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:10:08 -!- jocke_pirat [~user@host-77-46-236-24.midco.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:14:53 -!- longqm [~longqm@219.224.160.186] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 03:19:31 pranavrc [~pranavrc@122.164.239.31] has joined #lisp 03:19:31 -!- pranavrc [~pranavrc@122.164.239.31] has quit [Changing host] 03:19:31 pranavrc [~pranavrc@unaffiliated/pranavrc] has joined #lisp 03:27:06 -!- quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-98-217.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 03:32:42 -!- nilsi_ [~nilsi@46.165.220.223] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:34:56 -!- ISF [~ivan@201.82.138.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:38:39 -!- gmcastil [~user@ip-64-134-60-182.public.wayport.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 03:39:01 momo-reina [~user@124.107.67.167] has joined #lisp 03:39:45 -!- ipmonger [~IPmonger@pool-72-94-39-57.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: ipmonger] 03:40:40 is there anyway compare symbols from one package with symbols from another package? i've tried using equal and equalp but they always come up with nil even when the symbol is identical 03:40:49 pastie code: http://pastie.org/8299408 03:41:06 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@1.144.63.0] has quit [Quit: Disconnecting -- bye] 03:45:50 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:46:13 -!- breakds [~breakds@c-24-0-146-43.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 03:47:16 momo-reina: first, abandon the idea that symbols from diferent packages are identical. Second, string= 03:48:22 One can try using keywords instead of symbols. 03:50:22 Vivitron: yeah i noticed that when stepping through 03:50:56 actually i wasn't aware that it would be evaluated in that manner until i saw the debug output trying to pass '?* and MY-TOOLS::?*... that's when the alarm bells went off 03:51:40 i'll try the keywords route, turning everything into a string would increase the complexity and i'd rather use that as a hail mary 03:53:22 string= works on string designators, so you can use it on symbols directly. Keywords route is probably nicer anyway though 03:53:40 (string= '?* '?*) 03:53:49 -!- hellome [~lua@192.73.239.25] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:53:52 oops... thought i was on the REPL =p 03:54:03 -!- fridim_ [~fridim@bas2-montreal07-2925317559.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 03:56:24 hellome [~lua@192.73.239.25] has joined #lisp 03:57:26 That did it! Thanks. 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seconds] 06:27:06 electromancer [~electroma@50.9.180.141] has joined #lisp 06:27:25 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-58.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:30:45 ndrei [~avo@83.142.149.227] has joined #lisp 06:30:57 bitonic [~user@xdsl-188-155-179-93.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 06:31:21 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ho1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 06:33:30 -!- clmsy [~clmsy@212.57.9.204] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:34:45 clmsy [~clmsy@212.57.9.204] has joined #lisp 06:37:25 -!- Codynyx [~cody@c-75-72-187-16.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 06:39:22 -!- nostoi [~nostoi@123.Red-81-44-158.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 06:40:17 -!- clmsy [~clmsy@212.57.9.204] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:40:45 Shinmera [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 06:45:47 Codynyx [~cody@c-75-72-187-16.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:46:20 recycle_ [~recycle@2602:304:b2eb:e570:bd78:9031:b4c6:a389] has joined #lisp 06:46:27 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:46:46 engblom [~user@unaffiliated/engblom] has joined #lisp 06:47:18 -!- eldariof [~CLD@188.168.236.174] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:47:37 clmsy [~clmsy@212.57.9.204] has joined #lisp 06:48:30 Could anyone kindly point me to any very short tutorial with exercises that would fit as a base for teaching in a compulsory public school? It is 14-15 years old kids with no prior knowledge and not necessary a big interest. 06:49:30 void64 [~luke@178.120.121.9] has joined #lisp 06:49:52 easye [~user@213.33.70.157] has joined #lisp 06:50:03 http://landoflisp.com/ 06:51:03 -!- recycle_ [~recycle@2602:304:b2eb:e570:bd78:9031:b4c6:a389] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:53:27 lollypop for tha kids! 06:53:32 :) lol 06:55:24 oleo_: ? 06:56:41 vlitomsk [~vas@host-2-60-85-185.pppoe.omsknet.ru] has joined #lisp 06:56:48 oleo_: Btw, land of lisp is not having any exercises. I have been looking at that book before. 06:56:58 -!- optikalmouse [~omouse@69-165-245-60.cable.teksavvy.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 06:57:05 -!- vlitomsk [~vas@host-2-60-85-185.pppoe.omsknet.ru] has left #lisp 06:57:26 how much of a tutorial do you want ? 06:57:36 http://www.cs.sfu.ca/CourseCentral/310/pwfong/Lisp/1/tutorial1.html 06:58:05 http://cs.gmu.edu/~sean/lisp/LispTutorial.html 06:59:23 oleo_: I actually took a look at that one. That one is decent for academic people, but kids are not that interested in factorial and fibonacci and other mathematical things. 06:59:42 It has exercises, so that makes it good for anyone at a bit higher level of education. 06:59:52 well you have to prepare a custom tut on yourself then.... 06:59:58 as far as i see..... 07:00:15 That is what I was afraid of. I have so difficult to come up with suitable exercises. 07:00:30 -!- momo-reina [~user@112.207.194.43] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:00:36 do you want oop too ? 07:00:41 or just bare lisp ? 07:01:03 Just bare lisp. I will have like 20 hours totally including exercises 07:01:10 It will have to be a very basic subset. 07:01:24 well, make a list of those things you think the kids would be interested in and prepare some examples then.... 07:01:27 dunno 07:02:55 ck`` [~ck@dslb-094-219-235-135.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 07:03:30 -!- alezost [~user@128-70-201-131.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:03:57 arenz [~arenz@HSI-KBW-109-193-252-079.hsi7.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 07:04:35 danielszmulewicz [~danielszm@109.226.23.125] has joined #lisp 07:06:51 persizzl [~persizzl@unaffiliated/persizzl] has joined #lisp 07:07:42 bulibuta [~bulibuta@irofti.net] has joined #lisp 07:10:52 -!- bitonic [~user@xdsl-188-155-179-93.adslplus.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:13:09 alezost [~user@128-70-201-131.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 07:13:13 zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has joined #lisp 07:16:38 -!- Vivitron [~Vivitron@c-50-172-44-193.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:19:04 -!- edgar-rft [~GOD@HSI-KBW-078-043-120-047.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 07:19:04 -!- clmsy [~clmsy@212.57.9.204] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:19:05 clmsy_ [~clmsy@212.57.9.204] has joined #lisp 07:19:18 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ho1.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:20:04 edgar-rft [~GOD@HSI-KBW-078-043-120-047.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 07:20:37 -!- arrsim [~user@27-32-235-88.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:20:45 benkard [~benkard@2a01:198:6d5:0:4ea:293a:c9fb:b442] has joined #lisp 07:21:04 I think a perfect tutorial for kids would have a minimal boiler plate for writing pixels. Then they would learn recursion and all other things by creating pictures. 07:21:06 -!- alezost [~user@128-70-201-131.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:21:35 -!- nug700 [~nug700@174-26-134-102.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: bye] 07:24:13 -!- doomlord [~doomlod@host86-180-26-144.range86-180.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 07:24:42 https://sphotos-a-ams.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/560524_632975543393259_753143000_n.jpg 07:24:45 woops 07:24:48 -!- persizzl [~persizzl@unaffiliated/persizzl] has left #lisp 07:24:51 thought this was another channel 07:24:53 heya engblom :P 07:27:38 jewel [~jewel@105-236-146-135.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 07:27:50 you'd need clx for that..... 07:28:27 unfortunately that may get complex.....unless you provide those parts underneath.....which they don't have to know about..... 07:28:47 or some other graphing lib like sdl 07:29:54 Hello surrounder 07:30:41 hiding the concepts is not a good idea maybe..... 07:31:01 recursion is important, try making it as simple as possible maybe ? 07:31:26 Hmm, I found this blog now. He has the same thought as I am having, apparently: http://formlis.wordpress.com/2011/01/22/teaching-children-programming/ 07:32:31 heh yep, exactly 07:32:47 kids nowadays are able to grok many things.... 07:33:37 -!- danielszmulewicz [~danielszm@109.226.23.125] has quit [Quit: danielszmulewicz] 07:33:39 -!- theBlackDragon [~dragon@77.109.124.52] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:34:37 -!- k0001_ [~k0001@host119.190-138-113.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:35:40 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 07:35:55 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-50-188.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:39:57 engblom: I just remember... the original dicussion (2d graphics etc.) to Warren Wilkinson's blog post was in the Lisp forum under http://www.lispforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=969 07:40:19 varjagg [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 07:40:26 Thanks 07:41:00 diadara_ [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has joined #lisp 07:43:25 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ho1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 07:43:36 ltbarcly__ [~jvanwink@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 07:44:14 -!- ltbarcly_ [~jvanwink@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:45:56 doomlord [~doomlod@host86-180-26-144.range86-180.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 07:46:55 -!- benkard [~benkard@2a01:198:6d5:0:4ea:293a:c9fb:b442] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:47:44 -!- pillton [~user@140.253.50.147] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:47:50 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:48:01 benkard [~benkard@2a01:198:6d5:0:4ea:293a:c9fb:b442] has joined #lisp 07:50:26 -!- diadara_ [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:51:28 -!- ndrei [~avo@83.142.149.227] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:52:55 ndrei [~avo@83.142.149.227] has joined #lisp 07:53:51 http://www.dynamiclearningcenter.com/ 07:54:02 -!- milosn [~milosn@user-5af50c69.broadband.tesco.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 07:58:12 ltbarcly [~jvanwink@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 07:58:32 diadara_ [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has joined #lisp 07:59:10 -!- ltbarcly__ [~jvanwink@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:59:28 danielszmulewicz [~danielszm@109.226.23.125] has joined #lisp 08:00:46 -!- walter|r [~walter@c-24-218-217-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:01:25 -!- aeth [~Michael@wesnoth/umc-dev/developer/aethaeryn] has quit [Quit: ...] 08:01:40 -!- jack_rabbit [~kyle@c-98-253-60-75.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:01:51 walter|r [~walter@c-24-218-217-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:05:25 -!- clmsy_ [~clmsy@212.57.9.204] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:06:29 alezost [~user@128-70-202-242.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 08:07:28 -!- DalekBaldwin [~Adium@66-146-163-200.skyriver.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 08:09:33 peterhil [~peterhil@158.127.31.162] has joined #lisp 08:11:12 -!- chu [~user@unaffiliated/chu] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 08:13:12 agumonkey [~agu@179.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 08:13:47 what is (ldb (byte 2 2) 10) supposed to return ? 08:14:48 do we have an eval-bot in here ? 08:15:57 clmsy [~clmsy@212.57.9.204] has joined #lisp 08:16:23 -!- zacharias_ is now known as aw|incendiary 08:17:11 http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_ldb.htm 08:18:06 i thought that would return 0 there, however (ldb (byte 1 2) 10) returns it 08:19:22 -!- benkard [~benkard@2a01:198:6d5:0:4ea:293a:c9fb:b442] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz] 08:22:32 -!- bege [~bege@S0106001d7e5132b0.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:22:43 bege [~bege@S0106001d7e5132b0.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 08:25:30 oleo_: why would it return 0? 08:25:46 -!- nicdev [user@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:4986] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:25:53 nicdev [user@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:4986] has joined #lisp 08:26:00 -!- oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-135-64.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 08:26:12 oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-157-191.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 08:26:19 -!- djinni` [~djinni@li125-242.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:28:12 engblom: I'd take Land of Lisp, then try to suggest exercises based on the games included or parts of them. Spice it up by asking for pupil's creative input. Could make an interesting extra-credit project of "how far can you take this game" 08:28:33 przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has joined #lisp 08:29:20 as for drawing pixels, some boilerplate can be made with lispbuilder-sdl 08:29:22 oleo: I ask the same as jdz. Why do you expect it to return 2? 08:29:36 djinni` [~djinni@li125-242.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 08:31:14 ? 08:31:44 i expected it to return 0, when byte-pos is 2 08:31:52 oleo: why? 08:32:10 10, first byte-pos 1, second byte-pos 0 ? 08:32:28 oleo: do you know what (byte 2 2) signifies? 08:33:25 not really, i only know the first arg is size or width 08:33:44 oleo: right, and what do you think the second arg is? 08:33:51 position 08:34:23 right, and given that 10 in binary is 1010, which bits do you think 2 2 represents? 08:34:58 oh it refers to binary hmmmm 08:35:34 shridhar [Shridhar@nat/redhat/x-xxlehyquvhfthryb] has joined #lisp 08:37:17 -!- zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 08:37:53 theBlackDragon [~dragon@77.109.124.52] has joined #lisp 08:38:01 -!- przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:39:07 Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 08:40:34 -!- karupanerura [~karupaner@www13355ui.sakura.ne.jp] has quit [*.net *.split] 08:40:34 -!- cibs [~cibs@60-251-40-253.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 08:40:41 ogamita [~t@77.104.4.54] has joined #lisp 08:42:07 -!- cmbntr [~cmbntr@slice.loopback.ch] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 08:42:53 KDr2 [~KDr2@123.122.117.33] has joined #lisp 08:42:53 -!- engblom [~user@unaffiliated/engblom] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:43:02 -!- ragnul [~rjain@66-234-32-156.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:43:07 engblom [~user@dsl-83.148.217-102-dynip.ssp.fi] has joined #lisp 08:43:08 -!- engblom [~user@dsl-83.148.217-102-dynip.ssp.fi] has quit [Changing host] 08:43:08 engblom [~user@unaffiliated/engblom] has joined #lisp 08:44:10 What would be the first lisp implementation having a save image feature? 08:45:03 Even GNU emacs has one, used in general only during its build process. Lisp Machines had one. 08:45:29 -!- McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:45:54 that would be outside 08:45:58 yes ok 08:46:46 karupanerura [~karupaner@www13355ui.sakura.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 08:46:46 cibs [~cibs@60-251-40-253.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 08:46:48 Why are you interested, btw? 08:46:51 so loke i would be outside 1010, at the end of it already ? 08:46:55 -!- theos is now known as Guest46048 08:47:08 McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has joined #lisp 08:47:10 I mostly see images as being due to a lack of shared library infrastructure at the time. 08:47:17 Right, MACLisp had a save function (1974). 08:47:25 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 08:47:29 -!- diadara_ [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 08:47:45 diadara_ [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has joined #lisp 08:48:03 yacks [~py@103.6.159.99] has joined #lisp 08:48:12 Zhivago: Probably more due to the controled memory management, and interactive/incremental development aspects of lisp, I'd say. 08:48:38 While lisp was a batch program you fed it punched cards, there was little point in saving images (on tape?). 08:48:56 And those are both probably better addressed by shared libraries, these days. 08:48:57 diadara__ [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has joined #lisp 08:49:00 -!- Guest46048 [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:49:08 For the same reason Smalltalk adopted it, while C didn't, because C is still used in batch. 08:49:34 -!- diadara__ [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:49:45 diadara__ [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has joined #lisp 08:49:47 Zhivago: depends on whether you want to work in batch (calling ql:quickload after each change you make to your sources) or incrementally working at the REPL or with slime. 08:49:54 -!- diadara_ [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:50:03 No, it doesn't -- both of those can be handled by shared libraries. 08:50:11 Have a look at how ECL does it, for example. 08:50:22 Has there been any experiments in having defined APIs/separately compiled libraries in Lisp? 08:50:28 But the question is how early it came, and since there wasn't that many lisps between lisp 1.6 and maclisp, I guess maclisp is the earliest. 08:50:51 -!- varjagg [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 08:50:56 Quad: Sure, but perhaps you mean 'common lisp'? 08:51:14 -!- void64 [~luke@178.120.121.9] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:51:19 Zhivago: ECL is a hack to hornshoe the round peg incremental lisp development into the square hole of batch C compiling. Far from the best example. 08:51:27 -!- diadara__ [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:51:43 diadara__ [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has joined #lisp 08:51:48 Zhivago, Yes. 08:51:51 Quadrescence: well, fasl files are that. 08:52:07 ogamita: And this is based on your image fetishism? :) 08:52:23 clisp even generates both a .lib and a .fas, so that you can compile other modules depending on your library without loading the .fas, but just the declarations in .lib 08:53:14 ogamita, fasl files seem insufficient, and they're not standardized whatsoever, etc. 08:53:29 Zhivago: you have have fun implementing the interactive development model with shared libraries. Apple did it in an old version of Xcode, loading dynamically Objective-C categories while debugging a program. They didn't keep this feature because it's ill-adapted to the batch compiling model (wasn't a complete solution, and didn't work very well). 08:54:20 Quadrescence: Yes. The lack of standardization of fasl file comes from the same point I mentionned: controlled memory management. Each implementation managing memory its own way, has its own requirements for fasl file formats. 08:57:41 ogamita: ECL shows that it's straight-forward to do and handles both cases just fine. 08:58:28 Controlled memory management is only an issue if your fasl file is a memory dump. 08:58:49 But it's mostly just a binary serialization format. 08:58:53 That said, it should be possible to design a portable FASL format, using a byte-code (LLVM/JVM or evem asm.js like), which would be compiled to native on the load. 09:00:25 przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has joined #lisp 09:00:45 ebw [~user@f051041142.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 09:00:56 -!- walter|r [~walter@c-24-218-217-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:01:04 You could even do it by using a standard shared library format. :) 09:01:54 walter|r [~walter@c-24-218-217-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:02:47 Yes, but my point is that it would still need a lot of processing to load it into a running image. Like when the JVM loads a .class, it is not just mapping the file into memory. Not counting the JIT compilation that occurs later, (a native compiler would probably prefer to do it on loading). 09:03:47 Which brings us back to 'is a memory dump', but who does that with fasls these days anyhow? 09:04:15 You might be confusing fasls with images, though. 09:04:17 -!- clmsy [~clmsy@212.57.9.204] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:05:42 varjagg [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 09:05:55 -!- przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:09:41 arrsim [~user@27-32-235-88.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 09:10:01 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-180-111.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 09:19:51 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 09:22:56 przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has joined #lisp 09:27:51 -!- przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:31:00 -!- pranavrc [~pranavrc@unaffiliated/pranavrc] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:31:25 ltbarcly_ [~jvanwink@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 09:32:05 -!- ltbarcly [~jvanwink@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:34:36 oleo: no 09:35:27 think of the bit numbers as 3210, thus (byte 2 2) covers bits 2 and 3 09:37:31 1010, 3210, (byte 2 2), of size 2 beginning at postion 2, so i should get 10, which is 2 in decimal ? 09:37:40 aha 09:38:21 -!- weie_ [~eie@softbank221078042071.bbtec.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:38:53 weie [~eie@softbank221078042071.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 09:41:24 -!- spacefrogg^ is now known as spacefrogg 09:48:01 ltbarcly__ [~jvanwink@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 09:49:18 -!- ltbarcly_ [~jvanwink@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:52:31 statl [~statl@dslb-094-218-226-111.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 09:57:14 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@158.127.31.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:02:49 -!- danielszmulewicz [~danielszm@109.226.23.125] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:03:08 danielszmulewicz [~danielszm@109.226.23.125] has joined #lisp 10:14:56 arnsa [~arnsa@78-63-18-208.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 10:21:51 benkard [~benkard@2a01:198:6d5:0:b8e9:7bca:a077:444c] has joined #lisp 10:23:42 hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@176.62.119.71] has joined #lisp 10:25:40 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 10:26:11 pillton [~user@124-171-213-21.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 10:29:38 -!- em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:29:57 -!- bulibuta [~bulibuta@irofti.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 10:31:06 em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 10:31:08 -!- benkard [~benkard@2a01:198:6d5:0:b8e9:7bca:a077:444c] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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-!- ogamita` is now known as ogamita 12:49:53 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 12:54:13 [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has joined #lisp 12:54:42 przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has joined #lisp 12:55:52 hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@109.120.35.157] has joined #lisp 12:58:15 ve [~a@vortis.xen.tardis.ed.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 12:59:42 -!- oleo_ [d4b81ecd@gateway/web/freenode/ip.212.184.30.205] has quit [] 13:00:21 -!- arnsa [~arnsa@78-63-18-208.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Quit: leaving] 13:01:54 Zagaba [~user@modemcable048.205-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 13:02:30 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:03:18 Does cl-ncurses support 64bit libraries? I'm trying to load it but it complains about wrong ELF header, although other ncurses dependent applications work just fine. 13:03:30 -!- ve [~a@vortis.xen.tardis.ed.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:04:59 And I can't recompile ncurses to try because this operation causes some blocks which are very hard to resolve. 13:05:08 clmsy [~clmsy@212.57.9.204] has joined #lisp 13:06:42 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-185-109.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:07:42 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 13:08:38 victor_lowther [~victorlow@143.166.116.80] has joined #lisp 13:08:51 I have installed the latest slime, emacs and sbcl, yet somehow M-p does not work. What am I doing wrong? 13:09:13 hitecnologys: Is your Lisp 32 bit or 64 bit? What OS ... Linux? 13:09:48 reb`: sbcl is 64bit and OS is Gentoo Linux, right. 13:10:06 hitecnologys: it's possible that you're getting wrong library loaded. Check CFFI's load path, iirc 13:10:47 also, iirc cl-ncurses is old and was abandoned. 13:10:53 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-167-235.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 13:10:53 hitecnologys: cl-ncurses is a layer over the foreign ncurse library. 13:10:58 -!- diadara__ [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 13:11:10 diadara__ [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has joined #lisp 13:11:18 So it will depend on whether your implementation is compiled in 64-bit or 32-bit / able to load libraries compiled in 64-bit or 32-bit. 13:11:26 p_l: already done that, it tries to load /usr/lib64/ncurses.so and this is correct one. 13:11:34 jewel: is your OS/window environment overtaking it? 13:12:22 Hm, if cl-ncurses is abandoned and old what can I use instead? 13:12:26 And as a FFI layer, (even generated by CFFI), there may be some 32-bit dependencies hard-coded that make life difficult when using a 64-bit library or vice-versa. 13:13:08 http://cliki.net/cl-charms 13:13:18 is advised on the cl-ncurse page. 13:13:25 stassats, yes, that's it 13:13:34 maxter [~maxter@gaffeless.chaperon.volia.net] has joined #lisp 13:13:58 Hm. 13:14:12 OK, let's try that one. 13:14:16 hitecnologys: also, try patching cl-ncurses to load ncurses with full name (including version) 13:14:23 -!- diadara__ [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:14:32 diadara__ [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has joined #lisp 13:14:45 ve [~a@vortis.xen.tardis.ed.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 13:15:05 OK, will try that too if cl-charms won't work. 13:15:07 -!- void64 [~luke@37.17.9.233] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:15:34 Ah, it can't even find my ncurses. 13:17:32 Says the same thing: wrong ELF header. How can I check if my sbcl is 64bit? 13:17:49 -!- walter|r [~walter@c-24-218-217-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:18:40 walter|r [~walter@c-24-218-217-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:18:53 -!- diadara__ [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has quit [Client Quit] 13:19:10 diadara__ [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has joined #lisp 13:19:16 hitecnologys: (integer-length most-positive-fixnum) can give a hint 13:20:09 62. And there's also CFFI-FEATURES:X86-64 in *features* so I assume sbcl is 64bit. 13:20:14 -!- przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:20:34 yes, it is 13:20:46 -!- Kabaka [~Kabaka@botters/kabaka] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:22:49 Okasu [~1@unaffiliated/okasu] has joined #lisp 13:23:16 paul0 [~paul0@187.112.77.85] has joined #lisp 13:24:02 -!- diadara__ is now known as diadara 13:25:27 Ah, looks like something is wrong with /usr/lib64/libncurses.so because /lib/ncurses.so.5.9 works just fine. 13:25:31 Thanks for help. 13:26:36 diadara_ [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has joined #lisp 13:26:56 przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has joined #lisp 13:27:17 Kabaka [~Kabaka@botters/kabaka] has joined #lisp 13:27:42 -!- diadara [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:27:46 What's the real difference between cl-ncurses and cl-charms? 13:30:28 benkard [~benkard@2a01:198:6d5:0:1df1:4068:34d9:9bf0] has joined #lisp 13:32:32 -!- seangrov` [~user@c-69-181-197-122.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:32:58 -!- ipmonger [~IPmonger@pool-72-94-39-57.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: ipmonger] 13:33:11 mgile [~mgile@74-92-220-177-Colorado.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 13:34:56 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 13:35:16 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:36:30 -!- nilsi_ [~nilsi@61.172.24.42] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:37:03 nilsi [~nilsi@46.165.220.223] has joined #lisp 13:37:14 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 13:38:21 foreignFunction [~niksaak@ip-4761.sunline.net.ua] has joined #lisp 13:38:28 ipmonger [~IPmonger@pool-72-94-39-57.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:38:48 nilsi_ [~nilsi@46.165.220.223] has joined #lisp 13:38:59 genkinodenki [~migrayn@dsl-vntbrasgw1-50dc7f-98.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 13:39:21 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:40:11 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@dsl51B6D29B.pool.t-online.hu] has joined #lisp 13:40:12 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@dsl51B6D29B.pool.t-online.hu] has quit [Changing host] 13:40:12 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 13:40:52 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Client Quit] 13:41:17 -!- jewel [~jewel@105-236-146-135.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:41:18 -!- benkard [~benkard@2a01:198:6d5:0:1df1:4068:34d9:9bf0] has quit [Write error: Broken pipe] 13:42:42 -!- nilsi [~nilsi@46.165.220.223] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:43:15 loke_erc [~user@bb115-66-249-26.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 13:44:40 nilsi [~nilsi@61.172.24.42] has joined #lisp 13:44:46 Xach: around? 13:46:04 benkard [~benkard@2a01:198:6d5:0:7902:dd53:83f2:a4e1] has joined #lisp 13:46:27 void64 [~luke@37.17.115.229] has joined #lisp 13:46:49 loke_erc: was ist los? 13:48:30 -!- nilsi_ [~nilsi@46.165.220.223] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:48:34 drmeister [~drmeister@mobile-166-147-109-021.mycingular.net] has joined #lisp 13:49:20 -!- nilsi [~nilsi@61.172.24.42] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:49:54 Xach: do you go through the QL bug reports before you release a new version? 13:49:56 nilsi [~nilsi@46.165.220.223] has joined #lisp 13:50:22 Usually 13:50:44 OK, because I moved repositories for a package, and reported a bug on the tracker a while back 13:50:55 -!- hellome [~lua@192.73.239.25] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:51:37 nilsi_ [~nilsi@61.172.24.42] has joined #lisp 13:52:09 -!- clmsy [~clmsy@212.57.9.204] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:53:31 hellome [~lua@192.73.239.25] has joined #lisp 13:53:50 -!- varjagg [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:54:24 Yeah, for the projects list, that's what I usually work from when prepping a release. 13:54:46 Any open issue gets worked and tagged before a release. That's my plan, though I'm sure sometimes I make mistakes. 13:55:20 -!- nilsi [~nilsi@46.165.220.223] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:56:02 -!- nilsi_ [~nilsi@61.172.24.42] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:56:36 nilsi [~nilsi@46.165.220.223] has joined #lisp 13:57:08 Xach: OK. In any case you'd get an error trying to compile the project, right? The old repository now only has a single file, a README with a link to the new url. 13:57:09 -!- danielszmulewicz [~danielszm@109.226.23.125] has quit [Quit: danielszmulewicz] 13:59:16 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@mobile-166-147-109-021.mycingular.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:01:04 nilsi_ [~nilsi@61.172.24.42] has joined #lisp 14:01:24 loke_erc: it would show up as a deleted project and that would clue me in 14:03:10 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@158.127.31.162] has quit [Quit: Must not waste too much time here...] 14:03:15 OK 14:03:16 good 14:03:17 :-) 14:04:27 -!- nilsi [~nilsi@46.165.220.223] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:04:55 It's a little harder for me to notice when the repo is straight-up deleted. I don't have great visibility into failed updates, it just uses the last successful update instead. 14:04:59 lq [~lq@115.238.153.245] has joined #lisp 14:05:13 *Xach* needs to make a more visible failed-update report 14:05:52 -!- nilsi_ [~nilsi@61.172.24.42] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:06:27 nilsi [~nilsi@46.165.220.223] has joined #lisp 14:06:30 ahungry_ [~null@66.184.106.97] has joined #lisp 14:07:33 Xach: the repository is still there, it's empty now 14:08:24 jewel [~jewel@105-236-146-135.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 14:09:45 Xach: what about a more "proactive" way, where we'd have a tool to upload new (candidate) versions to the quickload repository? 14:10:06 -!- CrazyEddy [~Delobranc@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Quit: CrazyEddy] 14:10:07 A little like: http://guides.rubygems.org/make-your-own-gem/ ? 14:11:28 CrazyEddy [~Paharia@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 14:12:14 drmeister [~drmeister@wirelessNAT188.wireless.temple.edu] has joined #lisp 14:13:08 ogamita: Maybe! 14:13:42 -!- oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-157-191.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:14:03 -!- jewel [~jewel@105-236-146-135.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:14:41 eudoxia [~eudoxia@r179-25-0-106.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 14:15:37 -!- ASau` is now known as ASau 14:15:47 jewel [~jewel@105-236-146-135.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 14:16:49 fisxoj [~fisxoj@192-0-131-151.cpe.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 14:18:35 clmsy [~clmsy@212.57.9.204] has joined #lisp 14:21:06 Karl_dscc [~localhost@ipdsw03.informatik.fh-schmalkalden.de] has joined #lisp 14:21:43 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@192-0-131-151.cpe.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:21:53 fisxoj [~fisxoj@192-0-131-151.cpe.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 14:22:26 -!- ve [~a@vortis.xen.tardis.ed.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:22:54 -!- diadara_ [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:23:07 chatbot2 [~henry@213.23.120.114] has joined #lisp 14:27:52 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@wirelessNAT188.wireless.temple.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:28:04 _d3f [~gnu@ip-static-94-242-252-67.as5577.net] has joined #lisp 14:29:18 jangle_ [~jimmy1984@50.241.129.73] has joined #lisp 14:33:53 Bike_ [~Glossina@69.166.47.103] has joined #lisp 14:35:14 Bike__ [~Glossina@69.166.47.103] has joined #lisp 14:35:37 -!- Bike [~Glossina@wl-nat100.it.wsu.edu] has quit [Disconnected by services] 14:35:42 -!- Bike__ is now known as Bike 14:37:32 -!- chatbot2 [~henry@213.23.120.114] has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:38:46 -!- Bike_ [~Glossina@69.166.47.103] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:42:55 Harag [~Thunderbi@41.13.60.102] has joined #lisp 14:43:55 -!- Okasu [~1@unaffiliated/okasu] has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:46:08 teggi [~teggi@113.173.4.29] has joined #lisp 14:46:21 Hydan [~hydan@ip-89-103-110-5.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 14:47:31 -!- statl [~statl@dslb-094-218-226-111.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 14:48:32 -!- zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 14:48:54 -!- spacefrogg is now known as spacefrogg^ 14:49:24 -!- Praise [~Fat@unaffiliated/praise] has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.] 14:49:51 Praise [~Fat@unaffiliated/praise] has joined #lisp 14:51:22 diadara_ [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has joined #lisp 14:51:59 oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-160-110.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:52:34 -!- walter|r [~walter@c-24-218-217-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 14:54:31 -!- void64 [~luke@37.17.115.229] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:55:11 -!- przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:55:45 st_uni-trier [~sebastian@136.199.55.234] has joined #lisp 14:56:12 -!- oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-160-110.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:56:26 Hey! I'm looking for developers for a survey that we are currently conducting at our group (I'm a PhD student). It just takes 5-10 minutes and you can help to show academic research how software development is really done in practice ;-) http://st.uni-trier.de/survey/ 14:59:45 tylergoza [~tylergoza@user-24-96-98-239.knology.net] has joined #lisp 15:00:13 -!- KDr2 [~KDr2@123.122.117.33] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:01:04 ahem 15:02:04 oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-160-110.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 15:03:04 przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has joined #lisp 15:03:24 Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 15:03:48 -!- przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has quit [Client Quit] 15:03:58 przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has joined #lisp 15:07:06 -!- Harag [~Thunderbi@41.13.60.102] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:07:17 st_uni-trier: in practice, statistically, software development is not done in Lisp. 15:07:32 :-( 15:09:11 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 15:10:01 Harag [~Thunderbi@41.13.0.48] has joined #lisp 15:11:45 danielszmulewicz [~danielszm@109.226.23.125] has joined #lisp 15:13:59 -!- Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 15:15:25 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Quit: i will be back...nvm] 15:16:12 zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has joined #lisp 15:16:20 the "non-mainstream languages" aren't always advertised as being used 15:16:38 there's a bunch of prolog, forth, lisp etc. used in various nooks and crannies 15:17:00 often either in bespoke stuff or in very specialized software, at least in my experience 15:18:13 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 15:18:22 normanrichards [~normanric@rrcs-108-178-120-144.sw.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:19:42 Sure, but statistically, they're still a minority. 15:20:16 O(1) vs. O(n). 15:21:26 Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 15:24:33 -!- arrdem [~arrdem@dhcp-53-132.ece.utexas.edu] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:24:42 arrdem [~arrdem@dhcp-53-132.ece.utexas.edu] has 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[~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 15:49:02 [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has joined #lisp 15:50:08 stepnem [~stepnem@internet2.cznet.cz] has joined #lisp 15:53:52 -!- Bike [~Glossina@69.166.47.103] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:57:14 -!- DalekBaldwin [~Adium@66-146-163-200.skyriver.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:58:07 segmond [c6fce60f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.198.252.230.15] has joined #lisp 15:58:17 Bike [~Glossina@69.166.47.105] has joined #lisp 16:00:01 st_uni-trier [~sebastian@136.199.55.234] has joined #lisp 16:00:42 keltvek [~keltvek@um-sd13-p308-1.uni-mb.si] has joined #lisp 16:00:44 -!- keltvek [~keltvek@um-sd13-p308-1.uni-mb.si] has quit [Changing host] 16:00:45 keltvek [~keltvek@unaffiliated/keltvek] has joined #lisp 16:01:02 -!- ogamita [~t@77.104.4.54] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:01:04 -!- tylergoza [~tylergoza@user-24-96-98-239.knology.net] has left #lisp 16:03:03 drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has joined #lisp 16:04:13 -!- st_uni-trier [~sebastian@136.199.55.234] has quit [Client Quit] 16:06:14 -!- Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Disconnected by services] 16:06:36 Spion_ [~spion@77.28.246.126] has joined #lisp 16:06:37 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r179-25-0-106.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:06:38 -!- Spion_ [~spion@77.28.246.126] has quit [Changing host] 16:06:38 Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 16:07:27 Vivitron [~Vivitron@c-50-172-44-193.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:08:39 Has anyone tried to check out the ECL sources from the git repo? I just seem to be unable to do it. 16:08:45 -!- victor_lowther [~victorlow@143.166.116.80] has quit [Quit: Leaving IRC - dircproxy 1.2.0] 16:09:29 -!- DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:12:08 LiamH [~healy@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 16:14:10 k0001 [~k0001@host97.190-138-114.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 16:16:48 I'm trying to load file with some Unicode characters on another machine but sbcl says that symbol #(208) can't be decoded. Tried LANG=en_US.UTF-8 as well as ru_RU.UTF-8 but without any success. What can be wrong? 16:17:07 LC_CTYPE? 16:17:11 s/sybol/octet sequence/ 16:17:51 Hm. 16:18:09 and 208 is not a legal unicode octet 16:18:33 LC_CTYPE=C. 16:18:41 Looks normal. 16:18:54 i meant utf-8, of course 16:19:04 But why the same file loads OK on my laptop? 16:19:06 "legal unicode octet"? What does that mean? 16:19:16 -!- diadara_ [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:19:22 diadara_ [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has joined #lisp 16:19:31 gleag: it means "the house is on fire" 16:20:05 -!- Ben1 [~DCG@218.193.186.42] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:21:07 stassats: What I meant was that this collocation of words isn't cromulent. 16:21:36 DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has joined #lisp 16:21:43 Oh, fixed that by setting LC_CTYPE to en_US.UTF-8. 16:22:23 stassats: thanks a lot for that clue. 16:23:16 rather, 208 is only legal when at the first byte of a two byte utf-8 sequence 16:23:19 -!- Codynyx [~cody@c-75-72-187-16.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:24:14 Hm. 16:24:30 boogie [~boogie@wsip-98-172-168-236.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 16:24:49 http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/d0/index.htm 16:24:51 That's weird because the text that sbcl refused to load is just some random text on Russian. 16:25:04 -!- przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:25:12 Codynyx [~cody@c-75-72-187-16.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:25:31 Pardon me for being nitpicky, but how is U+00d0 represented in UTF-16LE/BE and UTF-32? 16:27:03 right, it's impossible to offer just another explanation why 208 can't be decoded without using every word from a utf-8 specification 16:27:13 because, #lisp 16:27:33 stassats: it was you who said "208 is not a legal unicode octet". 16:27:51 print it and pin it on your wall 16:28:01 I merely said that this statement has zero information value by virtue of not making sense. 16:32:47 (Not to mention the fact that you've admitted yourself that 208 is, indeed, a perfectly legal octet to occur in *some* positions of a UTF-8 stream, even if not allowed to appear randomly. #lisp being a technical discussion, one would expect random juggling with words not to occur with any regularity.) 16:33:48 and who solved hitecnologys's problem and who produced just noise? 16:33:55 *didi* ZzzzZzzz 16:34:24 lol 16:35:16 That's called a "non sequitur", BTW. 16:38:15 Whatever. 16:38:31 -!- bondar [~bondar@197.156.132.62] has quit [] 16:40:06 cory786 [~cory@PAT97.wifi.utoledo.edu] has joined #lisp 16:40:07 (Although I must admit that if SBCL is sensitive to locale settings this way, it sounds like a much bigger problem to me. But I may just be a "let things work automagically, extra knobs are a no-no" junkie", I admit that.) 16:40:37 Anyway, I see no point in arguing about if 208 is a legal Unicode character or not. 16:41:13 i said utf-8, not unicode 16:41:24 Ah, yeah. 16:41:28 and then i said some more about it 16:41:30 hitecnologys: 208 is most certainly a legal Unicode character. 16:41:42 gleag: sure it is. 16:42:13 -!- ck`` [~ck@dslb-094-219-235-135.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:42:26 Isn't there an econding detection package for CL, anyway? UTF-8 strings are quite easy to identify, making it possible for any decoder to emit a more helpful warning in your case. 16:43:29 I saw some iconv wrappers but I don't think I need this kind of stuff just to initialize some variables with text. 16:43:30 (This wouldn't require a full-featured detector anyway.) 16:44:22 Blah, you shouldn't need foreign libs for that. Also, does iconv really do encoding detection? I don't think I've noticed anything of the kind. 16:44:47 -!- cory786 [~cory@PAT97.wifi.utoledo.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:45:28 AFAIR it support something like encoding detection. 16:45:43 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@72.53.108.73] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:45:51 But last time I used that feature was about a year ago. 16:46:15 lemoinem [~swoog@72.53.108.73] has joined #lisp 16:48:16 -!- ecraven [~user@www.nexoid.at] has quit [Excess Flood] 16:48:31 ecraven [~user@www.nexoid.at] has joined #lisp 16:49:54 Alright, it's time to go to bed. Goodbye everyone and have a nice day. 16:50:02 -!- hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@109.120.35.157] has quit [Quit: hitecnologys] 16:53:59 -!- jaimef [jaimef@dns.mauthesis.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 16:54:06 sdemarre [~serge@179.81-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 16:54:26 jaimef [jaimef@dns.mauthesis.com] has joined #lisp 16:56:07 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@rrcs-108-178-120-144.sw.biz.rr.com] has quit [] 16:57:23 statl [~statl@dslb-094-218-020-010.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 16:57:42 cory786 [~cory@PAT97.wifi.utoledo.edu] has joined #lisp 16:58:40 -!- seangrov` [~user@c-69-181-197-122.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:59:04 ltbarcly [~textual@216.113.168.141] has joined #lisp 17:00:22 -!- teggi [~teggi@113.173.4.29] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:04:53 -!- arenz [~arenz@HSI-KBW-109-193-252-079.hsi7.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:06:15 -!- diadara_ is now known as diadara 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Or one of these and the emacs default-directory? 19:59:42 drmeister: oh right, this is not something you want to do at the implementation level. It's up to the user to write something like I have in ..interactive.browser:cd 19:59:55 If d-p-d is a special variable, how would its different values in threaded lisps map onto the per-process Unix WD? 19:59:56 drmeister: emacs- default-directory shouldn't even be considered 20:00:14 gleag: indeed. 20:00:18 fvaresi [~fernando@r190-134-0-152.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 20:00:42 gleag: Good point - I'm single threaded now but in the future... 20:01:31 stassats: again, up to the user. It's when I work at the REPL that I want both to be kept synchronized thru this interactive command, and when I work in emacs, I want to keep them synchronized with default-directory too, and there's a slime command to do just that! 20:01:33 -!- Karl_dscc [~localhost@ipdsw03.informatik.fh-schmalkalden.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:01:38 -!- Shinmera [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has quit [Quit: BRB] 20:01:47 slime-sync-package-and-default-directory 20:03:19 bitonic [~user@xdsl-188-155-179-93.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 20:04:05 -!- zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 20:05:04 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:05:19 Shinmera [~linus@80.77.87.239] has joined #lisp 20:05:39 -!- jewel [~jewel@105-236-146-135.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:06:35 In the ECL top-level REPL (which I borrowed from ECL) there are immediate commands like :help and :ld (LOAD ...) and :cf (compile-file ...). I was thinking of implementing this stuff within those. I'd like to add a :pwd (print-working-directory) and :cd (change-directory) - you know what I'm talking about. 20:06:57 That is perfectly right. 20:07:12 These would manipulate *default-pathname-defaults* which would change where LOAD loads from and anything else that uses MERGE-PATHNAMES. 20:07:36 Great - I'm not doing anything weird. 20:09:04 drmeister: I don't remember about ecl, but clisp allows even the user to define such commands, by setting a custom:*user-commands* variable. 20:09:20 What about defining something like the PATH environment variable for use by REQUIRE? Re: REQUIRE the CLHS says: "If the pathname-list is nil, an implementation-dependent mechanism will be invoked in an attempt to load the module named module-name" 20:11:00 I'm pretty sure I know the answer - it's all good. 20:11:04 This is nonsensical. PATH is for unix executable. REQUIRE loads lisp modules (libraries). 20:11:27 jangle__ [~jimmy1984@50.241.129.73] has joined #lisp 20:11:57 -!- agumonkey [~agu@179.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:12:01 pjb: How is it nonsensical? He was using an analogy. 20:12:11 The closest would be LD_LIBRARY_PATH, but if you don't load unix libraries (libncurses.so), with (require :ncurses), then you don't want to use that environment variable either. 20:12:26 I mean something like PYTHONPATH which is used by PYTHON to import modules. 20:12:29 Oh, I skipped the 'like'. Sorry. 20:13:18 -!- jangle_ [~jimmy1984@50.241.129.73] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:13:28 I'll use sys::*require-pathnames* 20:13:35 Yes. 20:14:22 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@62-165-243-178.pool.digikabel.hu] has joined #lisp 20:14:22 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@62-165-243-178.pool.digikabel.hu] has quit [Changing host] 20:14:22 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 20:14:23 drmeister: usually, implementations call out a hook or a list of hooks under require, so that you can have different ways to find and load them. One of them could use sys:*require-pathname*. Be sure to export public APIs, even if they're implementation dependant, as long as you plan some stability in them. 20:15:36 m7w [~chatzilla@178.172.234.247] has joined #lisp 20:15:38 That's what I really love about this language, it's built like a machine-shop. 20:15:51 drmeister: Yeah, a list of lookup functions, tried in series, that way users can cons their own on (like an ASDF one). 20:18:51 Got it - and I've got ECL's implementation of that - they use sys:*module-provider-functions* 20:21:06 drmeister: Yeah, it never hurts to do _exactly_ what another impl does. Then I can just #+(or x y) :) 20:21:09 jlongster [~user@pool-173-53-114-190.rcmdva.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:23:48 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-167-235.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:23:57 sellout-: I'm hosting the ECL Common Lisp code on top of my C++ core - the few changes I've made to their CL source is under feature control (#-ecl #+brcl etc) so the behavior should be exactly the same. 20:25:29 -!- alezost [~user@128-70-202-242.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:25:42 The differences in the implementations are in the low level code - ECL does a lot of typechecking and dispatching in their low-level routines. I use inheritance and virtual functions. They use simple C-structs and I use lots of inheritance (which is problematic for conservative garbage collection). 20:25:44 how does it relate to the existing BRCL implementation? 20:26:13 Xach: I don't understand. 20:27:23 If I ever have a CL impl, Im pretty sure I wont end its name in CL. Easiest way to avoid name clashes ;) 20:28:04 It is just a bad joke, sorry. There are lots of CLs but none that I know of named BRCL. 20:28:46 Ive only ever come up with one project name that Ive ever liked. 20:28:47 Xach: Ah. 20:28:47 -!- eldariof [~CLD@188.168.236.174] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:28:50 Oh, wait  2. 20:30:36 -!- cabaire [~nobody@p54A74B5B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:30:42 -!- travisr [~travisrod@17.223.151.202] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:33:29 Xach: sounds like some incomplete implementation. 20:33:37 BaRely Common Lisp :) 20:33:55 -!- fvaresi [~fernando@r190-134-0-152.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has left #lisp 20:33:58 -!- paul0 [~paul0@187.112.77.85] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:35:53 paul0 [~paul0@187.112.91.65] has joined #lisp 20:37:05 fisxoj [~fisxoj@192-0-131-151.cpe.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 20:38:58 -!- m7w [~chatzilla@178.172.234.247] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90.1 [Firefox 23.0.1/20130814063812]] 20:41:26 -!- cory786 [~cory@PAT97.wifi.utoledo.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:43:39 Praise- [~Fat@unaffiliated/praise] has joined #lisp 20:44:39 -!- Praise [~Fat@unaffiliated/praise] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:45:29 -!- _d3f [~gnu@ip-static-94-242-252-67.as5577.net] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.1] 20:48:15 paul0_ [~paul0@177.96.169.110] has joined #lisp 20:49:33 -!- prxq_ [~mommer@mnhm-4d0103b5.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:49:39 -!- zenoli [~pk@109.201.154.150] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:50:03 -!- jaimef [jaimef@dns.mauthesis.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 20:50:30 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@192-0-131-151.cpe.teksavvy.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:51:16 -!- paul0 [~paul0@187.112.91.65] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:51:28 zenoli [~pk@109.201.154.154] has joined #lisp 20:51:59 -!- ehu [~ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:52:59 jaimef [jaimef@dns.mauthesis.com] has joined #lisp 20:55:27 sergeykish [~user@178.165.102.38] has joined #lisp 20:55:59 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:57:10 travisr [~travisrod@17.223.151.202] has joined #lisp 20:57:16 danielszmulewicz [~danielszm@109.226.23.125] has joined #lisp 20:58:32 -!- askatasuna [~askatasun@190.18.152.144] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.1] 21:00:10 bananagram [~bot@c-76-30-158-226.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:00:39 -!- danielszmulewicz [~danielszm@109.226.23.125] has quit [Client Quit] 21:01:54 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@216.113.168.141] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:02:00 -!- ebw [~user@e181179181.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:02:02 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:02:31 -!- jangle__ [~jimmy1984@50.241.129.73] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:03:31 -!- benkard [~benkard@2a01:198:6d5:0:2446:aaff:60d6:d626] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:03:58 -!- ahungry_ [~null@66.184.106.97] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:04:39 Codynyx [~cody@c-75-72-187-16.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:04:42 ltbarcly [~textual@216.113.168.141] has joined #lisp 21:05:15 -!- knob [~knob@76.76.202.244] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:05:31 -!- arrdem [~arrdem@dhcp-53-132.ece.utexas.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:06:05 WarWeasle [~Kaltara@162.72.14.206] has joined #lisp 21:06:07 -!- travisr [~travisrod@17.223.151.202] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:06:14 arrdem [~arrdem@dhcp-53-132.ece.utexas.edu] has joined #lisp 21:08:12 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@93.113.190.121] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 21:08:14 drmeister [~drmeister@mobile-166-147-108-146.mycingular.net] has joined #lisp 21:11:17 -!- paul0_ [~paul0@177.96.169.110] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:16:37 benkard [~benkard@2a01:198:6d5:0:58a5:7e6b:5b5c:b3d4] has joined #lisp 21:17:28 travisr [~travisrod@17.223.151.202] has joined #lisp 21:18:12 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:18:38 zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has joined #lisp 21:20:06 Aerolitus [~Aerolitus@unaffiliated/xispirito] has joined #lisp 21:20:35 -!- victor_lowther [~victorlow@143.166.116.80] has quit [Quit: Leaving IRC - dircproxy 1.2.0] 21:23:13 -!- Okasu [~1@unaffiliated/okasu] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:25:28 if the esrap author reads here: thanks, esrap is really good! 21:26:43 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 21:26:44 dim: Does that mean that it's not supposed to be pronounced "is crap"? ;) 21:27:10 maybe it is, in an humoristic tone ;-) 21:27:14 Damn, I need new glasses. So it's not a scraping package? 21:27:28 esrap is a parser generator tool 21:27:48 Bah. How many of those are there? 21:27:58 http://nikodemus.github.io/esrap/ 21:28:06 *gleag* is currently looking for a scraper, in fact. 21:28:12 this one is real good, I only tried cl-yacc to compare it to before 21:28:44 I didn't like cl-yacc way of doing things because of difficulties to maintain generated code, but maybe I didn't get it yet 21:28:45 Looks juicy! 21:28:49 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@mobile-166-147-108-146.mycingular.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:29:02 I find that producing nice lisp code from esrap parsers is quite easy 21:30:37 well actually lisp data that you can compile, and now lisp data that cl-ppcre will be able to consider as a scanner parse-tree that I then can use to "parse" (scan and split) incoming messages 21:30:59 I'm again amazed how CL makes such projects a couple of evenings rather than a big involvment 21:31:11 I'm not sure that the http://sb-studio.net is correct...? 21:31:43 what's that? 21:32:07 I mean, it's not like I expect Google Translate to be perfectly fluent in Japanese, but if the translation says "Men become more attractive in the Live Chat", I'm not sure the original was "This is a Lisp programming web page" or anything similar. :) 21:32:26 hehe 21:32:28 dim: The page you linked says "Esrap is maintained courtesy of Steel Bank Studio Ltd by Nikodemus Siivola. 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