00:06:04 -!- WarWeasle [~Kaltara@162.72.14.206] has quit [Quit: AndroIRC - Android IRC Client ( http://www.androirc.com )] 00:06:14 -!- klltkr [~klltkr@unaffiliated/klltkr] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:06:54 zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has joined #lisp 00:17:34 -!- Okasu [~1@unaffiliated/okasu] has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:22:03 Teratogen [leontopod@unaffiliated/teratogen] has joined #lisp 00:23:45 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-185-168-200.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:32:12 hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@94.137.12.71] has joined #lisp 00:34:18 -!- ndrei [~avo@83.142.149.227] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:34:48 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Excess Flood] 00:38:20 Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 00:41:23 LiamH [~none@96.231.222.26] has joined #lisp 00:44:41 zerowaitstate [~dwaites@adsl-75-23-43-147.dsl.lgvwtx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:45:18 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@internet2.cznet.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:46:14 ndrei [~avo@83.142.149.227] has joined #lisp 00:46:25 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@70.114.215.220] has quit [Quit: normanrichards] 00:49:21 -!- arare [~Aramur@153.68.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Quit: arare] 00:49:34 -!- Aramur [~arare@28.Red-81-32-228.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Aramur] 00:56:55 -!- hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@94.137.12.71] has quit [Quit: hitecnologys] 00:58:07 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-185-168-200.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:58:31 echo-area [~user@182.92.247.2] has joined #lisp 00:58:50 I am really happy that SB-EXT:RUN-PROGRAM has the option I was just thinking I might have to patch in (:DIRECTORY) 01:00:17 -!- boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:05:25 -!- ndrei [~avo@83.142.149.227] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:05:29 any tips on programming artificial intelligence? 01:05:39 i've got a coy of paul graham's case studies in CL 01:05:42 *copy 01:06:05 thought I've only looked through it a little bit 01:06:59 Do you mean Peter Norvig's book? 01:07:01 I've got a lofty goal of passing the turing test 01:07:14 Yes Peter Norvig 01:07:20 wow can't believe i mixed up the names 01:07:23 Paradigms of AI Programming is more about useful tools that fell out of what was once considered AI, but now is not. 01:07:34 I think it's also a good book for straight-up learning CL 01:07:43 Norvig wrote another AI book called AI: A Modern Approach. 01:07:52 I'm not interested in AI and I can't tell you how useful it is, sorry. 01:08:14 that's okay, learned about another AI book now 01:08:28 Xach: AI:AMA is good but not lisp-centric 01:08:39 most of the example code is in python and java I think 01:08:56 I think it has lisp code somewhere though 01:08:56 -!- hypno [~hypno@impulse2.gothiaso.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 01:10:34 Lisp was purported to be best for AI in the past, is there substance behind this still? 01:10:42 Not really. 01:11:00 -!- Adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:11:04 AI has shifted from symbolic to statistical approaches in most cases. 01:11:37 It's probably correct to say that lisp is still very good at symbolic processing. 01:11:49 resttime: asking for "tips" on a decades-old field of academic study isn't going to get you far, that shit ain't easy 01:12:10 But, ultimately, it depends on what you mean by AI. 01:12:42 -!- p_l [~pl@tsugumi.brage.info] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:13:01 Hold a proper conversation, "personality", and etc. 01:13:02 p_l [~pl@tsugumi.brage.info] has joined #lisp 01:13:17 Bike: ehehehehe 01:13:21 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@123.208.155.173] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 01:13:33 i'm not joking, this isn't something you can do in a weekend 01:14:02 i mean, go for it, but you're not going to figure it out from asking around on irc. 01:14:08 resttime: You might want to research into 'turing test competitions'. 01:14:27 DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@1.146.149.82] has joined #lisp 01:15:00 Bike: yeah i know it's difficult, i want to satisfy my curiousity though that came from thinking about how to process language with my IRC bot 01:15:19 Zhivago: alright 01:15:58 Well, the basic consensus these days for machine translation (which is an equivalent problem) is with big data and statistical methods. 01:16:50 You might like to look into viterbi paths, and perhaps play with segmentation inference, which is a simpler problem but generally doable with trigrams. 01:18:13 phew 01:18:18 lots of info to take in 01:19:00 how did the shift to statistical appraoches happen? 01:19:30 the symbolic approaches not working, to oversimplify 01:20:27 ssqq [~perlvim@112.90.197.33] has joined #lisp 01:22:12 How to use do-symbols or DO-EXTERNAL-SYMBOLS, DO-ALL-SYMBOLS? 01:24:09 ssqq: Just as they're specified. What would you like to accomplish with them? 01:25:02 I want get all global variable name and useful function name of current package 01:25:06 Well, I'm going to start with AI: Modern Approach for now 01:25:09 thanks for infos 01:25:44 got them copy and pasted to a TXT for later 01:26:52 ssqq: One option is to read the source code or documentation. 01:27:02 motionman [~motionman@unaffiliated/motionman] has joined #lisp 01:27:02 edgar-rft [~GOD@HSI-KBW-078-043-120-047.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 01:27:33 OK, I see, thanks 01:27:34 ssqq: You can use do-external-symbols to find out which symbols are exported, those symbols often make up an API. FBOUNDP and BOUNDP will tell you if a symbol has meaning as a function or if it has a value as a global. 01:27:50 ssqq: you could look at how repl-utilities:summary is implemented 01:29:53 I could not find any sample code about it 01:30:48 boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 01:32:35 -!- ssqq [~perlvim@112.90.197.33] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:33:39 guyal [~anonymous@108-235-117-64.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:36:06 -!- nilsi [~nilsi@183.245.65.242] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:37:32 resttime: Well, it makes sense if you think of these things in terms of economy. 01:38:15 resttime: Language, for example, has a strong bias toward efficient representation, which is why the Zipf distribution emerges -- it's due to an even distribution of load. 01:39:02 -!- boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:39:03 resttime: And the economy of language for one person depends on how other people tend to use it, so it's rooted in probability rather than discrete symbolism. 01:39:37 normanrichards [~normanric@mobile-166-147-067-072.mycingular.net] has joined #lisp 01:40:10 hypno [~hypno@impulse2.gothiaso.com] has joined #lisp 01:40:53 Zhivago: the "big data" statistical methods for MT are doomed to fail for anything but the simplest requirements. 01:41:28 Zhivago: interesting,that makes sense 01:41:29 So I wouldn't bury the (semi)symbolic computation just yet. 01:41:51 gleag: That seems to be missing a reasoned argument. 01:42:10 In what sense? 01:42:49 In the sense that there is no reason in it? 01:43:12 -!- zerowaitstate [~dwaites@adsl-75-23-43-147.dsl.lgvwtx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:43:21 There's no reason to say that the current preoccupation with big data is a fad? 01:43:45 I don't think so. Pretty certainly it's what humans do. 01:44:02 chu [~user@unaffiliated/chu] has joined #lisp 01:44:06 There's a poingant proverb that the AI field is a silver bullet machinegun (or something like that). 01:44:47 Although humans seem to be better on the statistical side of it. :) 01:44:55 I'm actually quite sure that this isn't what humans do. 01:45:10 Well, it must be nice to be sure -- what do you think humans do instead? 01:45:14 A lot of data is definitely a big part of the solution, but it's not THE solution. 01:45:43 bananagram [~bot@c-76-30-158-226.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:46:10 So, what is it that you are sure it isn't that humans do? 01:46:14 There's a lot of common sense involved tn language cognition that we can capture neither with purely symbolic methods nor with massive statistics. 01:46:25 That makes Lisp still The Way To Go. 01:46:36 Can you explain why 'common sense' cannot be captured by 'massive statistics'? 01:46:43 (Since you can do all you need in it.) 01:46:56 boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 01:50:43 -!- chameco [~samuel@cpe-74-69-188-107.stny.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 01:50:54 The weakness of that argument is that it also applies to Visual Basic. :) 01:52:43 Zhivago: wouldn't common lisp be better for common sense? it has "common" in the name 01:53:58 An intriguing notion. 01:54:50 and visual basic is best suited for computer vision 01:56:34 leo2007 [~leo@111.195.94.232] has joined #lisp 01:59:28 -!- LiamH [~none@96.231.222.26] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:59:55 Let us not discuss brainfuck 02:00:27 Or MUMPS :-) 02:02:26 loke: lots of TDWTF material there though 02:02:39 zacharias_ [~zacharias@unaffiliated/zacharias] has joined #lisp 02:04:18 -!- aw|incendiary [~zacharias@unaffiliated/zacharias] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:05:34 serfire [~wang@59.108.29.48] has joined #lisp 02:06:48 ccb [~user@218.246.107.87] has joined #lisp 02:11:09 shawncheng [~user@218.246.107.87] has joined #lisp 02:12:42 -!- ISF [~ivan@201.82.138.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:14:21 -!- ubikation [~ubikation@c-67-168-252-238.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:15:55 antgreen [~green@dsl-173-206-83-249.tor.primus.ca] has joined #lisp 02:16:40 tianyu [~user@218.246.107.87] has joined #lisp 02:17:02 -!- boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:18:19 -!- Watcher7 [~w@silly.tabby.cat] has quit [Quit: ded] 02:19:08 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@1.146.149.82] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:19:14 DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@1.146.149.82] has joined #lisp 02:19:37 -!- tianyu [~user@218.246.107.87] has quit [Client Quit] 02:19:42 -!- shawncheng [~user@218.246.107.87] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 02:20:29 -!- ccb [~user@218.246.107.87] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 02:20:50 tianyu [~user@218.246.107.87] has joined #lisp 02:24:53 Watcher7 [~w@silly.tabby.cat] has joined #lisp 02:28:17 -!- bgs100 [~nitrogen@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: bgs100] 02:29:40 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 02:32:30 -!- jangle_ [~jimmy1984@c-98-233-111-131.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: jangle_] 02:38:20 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@192-0-131-151.cpe.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 02:47:34 boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 02:48:14 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:53:44 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@1.146.149.82] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:53:49 DataLinkD2 [~DataLinkD@1.146.149.82] has joined #lisp 02:55:50 -!- boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:57:40 -!- serfire [~wang@59.108.29.48] has quit [Quit: ] 03:01:07 -!- zacharias_ is now known as aw|incendiary 03:04:19 Wow - PATHNAMEs are complicated. 03:05:37 drmeister: yes. More so than nescessary 03:05:52 I'd be happy with the complexity if it actually, you know, worked. 03:06:15 eff__ [~quassel@123.122.69.65] has joined #lisp 03:06:23 I'm just translating the ECL C code into C++ for pathname.d - leaving the ECL copyright notice in place of course. 03:07:31 why are you doing that? 03:07:32 Are LOGICAL-PATHNAMEs supposed to be a generic way of referring to files and they are converted to physical PATHNAMEs which are converted to namestrings? 03:07:56 loke: Because it's really complicated code - with lots of corner cases. 03:07:57 logical pathnames are a way to describe a pathname using a normal list structure 03:08:28 Lots of logic. 03:08:58 -!- eff_ [~quassel@123.122.71.85] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 03:10:05 What doesn't work about them? 03:18:42 drmeister: A lot. But I'll give you a single example, and you can take it from there: 03:19:20 drmeister: Let's say you have an application that accepts a directory typed by the user (perhaps on the commandline). You want to convert that to a pathname. How do you do it? 03:19:43 That's something quite basic, and that you'd expect a generic pathname subsystem to handle for you in a platform-independent way 03:20:38 Isn't it (PATHNAME user-supplied-namestring)? 03:20:50 -!- yacks [~py@103.6.159.99] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:20:50 I haven't used PATHNAME at all yet. 03:21:18 drmeister: So you might think. Let's assume the user typed "/tmp". See what happens 03:21:40 On ECL (pathname "/tmp") --> #P"/tmp" 03:22:33 Ah - (pathname-directory (pathname "/tmp")) --> (:absolute) 03:22:56 (pathname-name (pathname "/tmp")) --> "tmp" is that the problem? 03:23:09 *drmeister* thinks it looks like a problem. 03:23:21 No. Try the following: 03:23:22 (pathname-directory (pathname "/tmp")) 03:23:31 isn't that just because you don't have a trailing slash 03:24:08 Yes, when I add the trailing slash then: (pathname-directory (pathname "/tmp/")) --> (:absolute "tmp") 03:25:32 exactly 03:26:29 It looks like ECL isn't querying the file system at all when it parses the namestring into a pathname. 03:26:30 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@mobile-166-147-067-072.mycingular.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:26:51 Which I know it isn't because I'm reading the source code of pathname and translating it into C++. 03:28:07 Is this the heart of the problem with PATHNAMEs? They don't interact with the file system? 03:28:28 *drmeister* thinks querying the file system would make the code crazy complex. 03:29:06 fisxoj [~fisxoj@192-0-131-151.cpe.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 03:29:32 No. The problem is that it's both overspecified (dealing with things that is not part of pathnames, like wildcards) and at the same time is underspecified 03:31:04 Hmm - I see - the code is very complicated. 03:32:08 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@192-0-131-151.cpe.teksavvy.com] has quit [Client Quit] 03:32:20 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 03:32:22 Harag [~Thunderbi@41.13.0.220] has joined #lisp 03:32:27 -!- void64 [~luke@37.212.119.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:32:58 yacks [~py@103.6.159.99] has joined #lisp 03:35:30 GrayMagiker [~Steve@c-67-164-129-95.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:38:25 emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 03:39:42 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 03:42:26 eldariof [~CLD@pppoe-204-110-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has joined #lisp 03:46:56 walter [~walter@c-24-218-217-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:48:11 boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 03:48:39 normanrichards [~normanric@70.114.215.220] has joined #lisp 03:52:06 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 03:52:27 I am not sure physical pathnames are as complicated as you make them out to be. I admit that the trailing slash is a annoying at first, but once you know about it, there isn't anything too strange. 03:52:30 -!- boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:54:29 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:00:42 jangle_ [~jimmy1984@c-98-233-111-131.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:03:03 -!- bananagram [~bot@c-76-30-158-226.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:03:46 -!- leo2007 [~leo@111.195.94.232] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 04:06:47 bananagram [~bot@c-76-30-158-226.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:08:35 pillton: It's more than annoying. It's impossible to deal with unless you know the specifics of the underlying filesystem, which defeats the purpose of using abstract pathnames in the first place. 04:10:50 -!- Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:11:25 -!- gleag [~gleag@71.175.broadband2.iol.cz] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:11:36 shridhar [Shridhar@nat/redhat/x-cybevwxgrgzkkduc] has joined #lisp 04:11:49 -!- yacks [~py@103.6.159.99] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:13:50 Personally, I'd recommend using logical pathnames for a virtual lisp FS, and namestrings for everything else. 04:14:31 Yes 04:20:10 -!- jangle_ [~jimmy1984@c-98-233-111-131.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: jangle_] 04:20:25 Physical pathnames are by definition specific to the underlying filesystem. If you use MAKE-PATHNAME, MERGE-PATHNAME etc to create physical pathnames you can't go wrong. 04:21:44 seangrov` [~user@67.159.191.98] has joined #lisp 04:23:39 ltbarcly_ [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:25:57 -!- emma is now known as em 04:26:12 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-187-226.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 04:26:50 Zhivago: How do you use namestrings in the context that you refer to? 04:27:15 Are they just strings that you concatenate to file names? 04:28:54 -!- ltbarcly_ [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:29:12 In general - how do people deal with paths in CL? Do people use PATHNAMEs - if they have so many problems - do people just avoid them? 04:29:41 ltbarcly_ [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:30:03 drmeister: i use pathnames. they're just fine if you don't try to use them with externally generated file names. 04:30:42 I use pathnames. I use logical pathnames sometimes. 04:31:14 What are considered externally generated file names? File names passed in as strings? 04:31:39 drmeister: filenames created by non-lisp programs 04:32:22 drmeister: pathnames do not work so well if you have to deal with names that contain unexpected characters. like, back in the day when you could not have spaces in file names. 04:33:41 Ok, I just checked - ECL handles spaces in directory names. 04:33:59 drmeister: that was just an example. 04:34:52 drmeister: try writing a program that walks an arbitrary directory in a portable fashion using pathnames. 04:35:02 -!- quazimodo [~quazimodo@27.253.98.217] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:35:51 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:37:48 foobot [~foobot@107-208-218-105.lightspeed.tukrga.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:37:55 H4ns: That's a good example. 04:39:36 -!- tianyu [~user@218.246.107.87] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:42:06 -!- ltbarcly_ [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 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file? http://pastebin.com/sjMSecC9 05:53:51 mishoo [~mishoo@93.113.190.121] has joined #lisp 05:56:02 -!- clmsy [~clmsy@212.57.9.204] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 05:58:20 -!- oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-143-154.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:58:49 oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-141-20.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 06:01:28 -!- walter [~walter@c-24-218-217-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:02:22 walter [~walter@c-24-218-217-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:04:06 clmsy [~clmsy@212.57.9.204] has joined #lisp 06:04:47 -!- maxter [~maxter@gaffeless.chaperon.volia.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 06:05:47 oleo_ [d4b81ecd@gateway/web/freenode/ip.212.184.30.205] has joined #lisp 06:07:06 -!- cmatei [~cmatei@78.96.108.142] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:10:30 lukego [~lukego@218-236.197-178.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 06:10:33 -!- alezost [~user@128-70-207-75.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit 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[~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 06:50:17 jewel [~jewel@105-236-146-135.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 06:50:27 przl [~przlrkt@p5DCA340B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 06:51:20 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Quit: i will be back...nvm] 06:51:48 -!- GrayMagiker [~Steve@c-67-164-129-95.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:52:37 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 06:52:39 -!- ehaliewicz [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:53:42 -!- binghe [~chatzilla@220.191.186.26] has left #lisp 06:57:44 alezost [~user@128-70-205-86.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 06:58:56 -!- Codynyx [~cody@c-75-72-187-16.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:59:32 -!- k0001 [~k0001@host241.190-226-194.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:59:52 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p5DCA340B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:00:32 Codynyx [~cody@c-75-72-187-16.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:01:24 varjagg [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 07:01:41 -!- bitonic [~user@xdsl-188-155-179-93.adslplus.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:07:18 ndrei [~avo@83.142.149.227] has joined #lisp 07:09:14 nostoi [~nostoi@90.Red-80-39-157.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 07:11:15 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:13:20 peterhil [~peterhil@158.127.31.162] has joined #lisp 07:15:27 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:18:06 -!- swflint-tab [~swflint@fsf/member/swflint] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:18:18 swflint-tab [~swflint@fsf/member/swflint] has joined #lisp 07:20:07 I've submitted the patch: 07:20:12 https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/1220084 07:20:43 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 07:21:05 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-63-204.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has 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bulibuta [~bulibuta@irofti.net] has joined #lisp 07:45:19 dottedlist [~Unknown@141.0.169.95] has joined #lisp 07:46:35 tiksa [~tiksa@178-222-70-254.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 07:47:23 arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-edxeifoglbzyhvrg] has joined #lisp 07:50:57 clhs format-universal-time 07:50:58 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for format-universal-time. 07:53:34 -!- nostoi [~nostoi@90.Red-80-39-157.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 07:55:18 -!- clmsy [~clmsy@212.57.9.204] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:56:23 dottedli1t [~Unknown@141.0.169.95] has joined #lisp 07:56:56 -!- dottedlist [~Unknown@141.0.169.95] has quit [Quit: Reconnecting] 07:57:50 arnsa [~arnsa@78-63-18-208.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 07:58:20 hello fenlix 07:59:05 hi loke 08:00:06 -!- smull [~smull@port-212-202-120-50.static.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:00:21 void64 [~luke@37.212.119.97] has joined #lisp 08:00:48 -!- dottedli1t is now known as dottedlist 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[~benkard@2a01:198:6d5:0:fd79:e621:a949:e19] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz] 09:05:38 -!- statl [~statl@dslb-094-218-228-024.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 09:06:08 gjcross [~gjcross@ppp118-209-22-58.lns20.mel4.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 09:06:15 Good morning. 09:07:31 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p54BD4D4E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 09:07:54 przl [~przlrkt@p54BD4D4E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 09:13:11 -!- maxter [~maxter@sundownness.lullaby.volia.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:13:27 maxter [~maxter@sundownness.lullaby.volia.net] has joined #lisp 09:16:02 -!- dottedli1t is now known as dottedlistr 09:16:26 pavelpenev [~quassel@melontech.com] has joined #lisp 09:16:39 -!- dottedlistr is now known as dottedlist_ 09:20:45 zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has joined #lisp 09:22:03 -!- walter [~walter@24.218.217.69] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:22:40 -!- edgar-rft [~GOD@HSI-KBW-078-043-120-047.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 09:22:47 maxter_ [~maxter@gaffeless.chaperon.volia.net] has joined #lisp 09:23:02 benkard [~benkard@2a01:198:6d5:0:b049:2a8e:e285:ae5d] has joined #lisp 09:23:10 walter [~walter@c-24-218-217-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:25:49 -!- echo-area [~user@182.92.247.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:25:54 -!- maxter [~maxter@sundownness.lullaby.volia.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:28:28 dottedli1t_ [~Unknown@141.0.169.95] has joined #lisp 09:29:09 hello grubnik 09:29:18 -!- dottedlist_ [~Unknown@141.0.169.95] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:29:27 -!- dottedli1t_ is now known as dottedlist_ 09:31:04 -!- dottedlist [~Unknown@141.0.169.95] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:31:12 dottedlist [~Unknown@141.0.169.95] has joined #lisp 09:34:01 quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-98-217.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 09:34:18 -!- antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:34:34 foreignFunction [~niksaak@ip-4761.sunline.net.ua] has joined #lisp 09:35:23 -!- zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 09:36:06 -!- maxter_ [~maxter@gaffeless.chaperon.volia.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:37:27 maxter_ [~maxter@gaffeless.chaperon.volia.net] has joined #lisp 09:41:14 -!- dottedlist_ [~Unknown@141.0.169.95] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:41:37 -!- dottedlist [~Unknown@141.0.169.95] has quit [Ping timeout: 247 seconds] 09:41:49 dottedlist_ [~Unknown@141.0.169.95] has joined #lisp 09:42:11 antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 09:42:53 didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has joined #lisp 09:43:21 -!- maxter_ [~maxter@gaffeless.chaperon.volia.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:43:27 dottedlist [~Unknown@141.0.169.95] has joined #lisp 09:43:47 -!- quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-98-217.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 257 seconds] 09:44:30 -!- spacefrogg^ is now known as spacefrogg 09:45:23 re 09:46:16 maxter_ [~maxter@gaffeless.chaperon.volia.net] has joined #lisp 09:50:20 -!- nug700 [~nug700@174-26-134-102.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: bye] 09:51:20 -!- swflint-tab [~swflint@fsf/member/swflint] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:51:36 swflint-tab [~swflint@fsf/member/swflint] has joined #lisp 09:53:18 ski [~md9slj@t-2020-05.studat.chalmers.se] has joined #lisp 09:55:46 pillton [~user@124-171-213-21.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 09:59:12 -!- hugod [~user@bas1-montreal08-1279346953.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:59:54 fenton [~fenton@ppp-110-168-34-27.revip5.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 09:59:57 motionman [~motionman@unaffiliated/motionman] has joined #lisp 10:00:40 -!- fenton [~fenton@ppp-110-168-34-27.revip5.asianet.co.th] has quit [Client Quit] 10:02:20 fenton [~fenton@ppp-110-168-34-27.revip5.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 10:02:35 -!- fenton [~fenton@ppp-110-168-34-27.revip5.asianet.co.th] has quit [Client Quit] 10:06:10 Can anyone recommend some reading material for implementing algorithms that are heavy on arithmetic? 10:10:36 pillton: chapter 12 of CLHS. 10:11:26 ogamita: heh 10:11:28 Some consideration to chapters 22 and 23 as well as chapter 2 might be needed too, if you have to deal with big numbers or want to represent them in different bases. 10:12:23 pillton: perhaps you have a more precise question in mind? 10:12:48 quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-98-217.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 10:13:05 -!- loke [~loke@203.127.16.194] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:15:00 My apologies, I meant no offense. 10:15:24 Implementing compilers and the architectural details of CPUs are quite foreign to me. I have always coded from the point of view of being easy to read first. 10:16:39 -!- tianyu6911 [~user@218.246.107.87] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 10:17:08 Having said this, for some class of problems, implementing things a certain way increases its execution performance. 10:17:25 loke [~loke@203.127.16.194] has joined #lisp 10:18:14 It is not clear to me if the compiler does a better job at compiling this style of code or if it better suits the architecture, or some combination of both. 10:23:44 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 10:24:23 -!- tiksa [~tiksa@178-222-70-254.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:25:54 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@62-165-243-178.pool.digikabel.hu] has joined #lisp 10:25:54 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@62-165-243-178.pool.digikabel.hu] has quit [Changing host] 10:25:54 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 10:25:56 francis_wolke [62cf9ba1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.98.207.155.161] has joined #lisp 10:26:46 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 10:27:56 -!- dottedlist_ is now known as raymondo_ 10:28:04 -!- raymondo_ is now known as dottedlist_ 10:28:46 -!- Harag [~Thunderbi@41.13.20.204] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:29:48 -!- void64 [~luke@37.212.119.97] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:30:50 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@158.127.31.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:31:11 Perhaps a more concrete example, in the book Numerical Recipes, there is an algorithm which contains three nested loops whose variables are i, j and k. In this algorithm, it is possible to have the loops nested in any order. The text notes, however, that "on modern processors with a hierarchy of cache memory, and when matrices are stored by rows, the fastest execution time is usually the k,i,j ordering." 10:32:09 davazp [~user@31.200.133.113] has joined #lisp 10:32:28 clmsy [~clmsy@212.57.9.204] has joined #lisp 10:33:20 -!- dottedlist [~Unknown@141.0.169.95] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:34:13 -!- dottedlist_ [~Unknown@141.0.169.95] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 10:35:08 pillton: that is kind of independent of the programming language. 10:35:14 pillton: use a profiler and experiment. 10:40:22 dottedli1t [~Unknown@141.0.169.95] has joined #lisp 10:41:53 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 10:42:04 `fogus [~fogus@freedom.d-a-s.com] has joined #lisp 10:44:28 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@62-165-243-178.pool.digikabel.hu] has joined #lisp 10:44:28 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@62-165-243-178.pool.digikabel.hu] has quit [Changing host] 10:44:28 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 10:44:29 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:47:02 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:47:30 -!- ndrei [~avo@83.142.149.227] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:49:32 ndrei [~avo@83.142.149.227] has joined #lisp 10:50:25 -!- hiyosi [~skip_it@247.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:51:35 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p54BD4D4E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:53:36 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-187-226.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:06:28 arare [~Aramur@153.68.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 11:08:21 -!- francis_wolke [62cf9ba1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.98.207.155.161] has quit [Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client] 11:09:47 peterhil [~peterhil@158.127.31.162] has joined #lisp 11:10:39 -!- ndrei [~avo@83.142.149.227] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:14:56 And, more generally, avoid microoptimization. 11:19:12 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 11:23:47 -!- fsvehla [~fsvehla@h081217181184.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Quit: fsvehla] 11:25:31 ssqq [~perlvim@112.90.197.41] has joined #lisp 11:29:25 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:29:44 francis_wolke [62cf9ba1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.98.207.155.161] has joined #lisp 11:35:00 -!- didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 11:44:06 przl [~przlrkt@p54BD4D4E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 11:44:36 -!- clmsy [~clmsy@212.57.9.204] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:44:39 ASau` [~user@p4FF971EB.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 11:47:48 -!- ssqq [~perlvim@112.90.197.41] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:47:56 -!- ASau [~user@p4FF96E41.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:48:31 ZabaQ [~ZabaQ@86.63.2.14] has joined #lisp 11:52:01 hrefchef [~BlackHunt@pool-72-73-253-159.cmdnnj.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 11:54:39 ssqq [~perlvim@112.90.197.41] has joined #lisp 11:56:09 -!- pavelpenev [~quassel@melontech.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:57:18 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 11:58:03 -!- fatihp [~fatihp@78.173.241.243] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:00:27 clmsy [~clmsy@212.57.9.204] has joined #lisp 12:02:13 knob [~knob@76.76.202.244] has joined #lisp 12:02:27 pranavrc [~pranavrc@122.164.150.162] has joined #lisp 12:02:27 -!- pranavrc [~pranavrc@122.164.150.162] has quit [Changing host] 12:02:27 pranavrc [~pranavrc@unaffiliated/pranavrc] has joined #lisp 12:02:31 breakds [~breakds@c-24-0-146-43.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:02:55 didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has joined #lisp 12:03:58 fsvehla [~fsvehla@188045169239.atmpu0062.highway.a1.net] has joined #lisp 12:12:12 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-185-168-200.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:12:24 -!- antgreen [~green@dsl-173-206-83-249.tor.primus.ca] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:14:39 gleag [~gleag@71.175.broadband2.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 12:15:34 -!- ericmathison [~ericmathi@172-15-249-133.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:16:08 always avoid optimization unless you 1) need it, and 2) can quantify the results and what t improves 12:16:10 -!- pillton [~user@124-171-213-21.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:17:20 grubnik: unless said optimization is "Actually think about the architecture and algorithms" :) 12:17:34 Harag [~Thunderbi@41.31.110.94] has joined #lisp 12:22:02 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 12:22:08 -!- ssqq [~perlvim@112.90.197.41] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:23:20 fatihp [~fatihp@78.173.241.243] has joined #lisp 12:24:30 klltkr [~klltkr@unaffiliated/klltkr] has joined #lisp 12:26:42 -!- fsvehla [~fsvehla@188045169239.atmpu0062.highway.a1.net] has quit [Quit: fsvehla] 12:27:42 -!- spacefrogg [~spacefrog@unaffiliated/spacefrogg] has quit [Quit: spacefrogg] 12:33:53 -!- Praise [~Fat@unaffiliated/praise] has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.] 12:34:20 Praise [~Fat@unaffiliated/praise] has joined #lisp 12:37:21 -!- rk[] [~rak@108-245-58-182.lightspeed.clmboh.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:39:47 yacks [~py@103.6.159.99] has joined #lisp 12:41:17 p_l: that seems to fall under "need it" :-) 12:41:35 grubnik: except that is one need that nearly everyone has, but often doesn't know ;) 12:41:43 -!- klltkr [~klltkr@unaffiliated/klltkr] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:44:50 optikalmouse [~omouse@69-165-245-60.cable.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 12:45:01 -!- Shinmera [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:47:11 Shinmera [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 12:47:49 -!- danielszmulewicz [~danielszm@185.3.146.222] has quit [Quit: danielszmulewicz] 12:49:57 hi 12:50:12 please could not (ql:quickload "gsll") seems that antik is broken 12:50:33 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-63-204.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:53:45 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 12:55:40 alezost` [~user@128-70-200-170.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 12:57:15 -!- alezost [~user@128-70-205-86.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:59:41 -!- benkard [~benkard@2a01:198:6d5:0:b049:2a8e:e285:ae5d] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz] 13:00:08 -!- fatihp [~fatihp@78.173.241.243] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:00:12 ehu [~ehu@109.32.151.21] has joined #lisp 13:01:08 benkard [~benkard@2a01:198:6d5:0:dcd7:e2dd:4981:69e2] has joined #lisp 13:02:55 jrajav [~jrajav@198.179.137.12] has joined #lisp 13:03:25 -!- oleo_ [d4b81ecd@gateway/web/freenode/ip.212.184.30.205] has quit [] 13:04:31 drmeister [~drmeister@wirelessNAT188.wireless.temple.edu] has joined #lisp 13:04:35 -!- Harag [~Thunderbi@41.31.110.94] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:04:47 -!- clmsy [~clmsy@212.57.9.204] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:05:04 clmsy [~clmsy@212.57.9.204] has joined #lisp 13:05:56 -!- hrefchef [~BlackHunt@pool-72-73-253-159.cmdnnj.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8] 13:06:03 -!- lq [~user@115.238.153.243] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:06:53 Posterdati: antik seems to load fine, but gsll doesn't. I'm getting a compilation error, can't find ffi.h 13:07:04 no 13:07:06 I'm getting 13:07:13 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p54BD4D4E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:07:19 for "file /home/angel/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/antik-20130720-git/init/generic.lisp" ; {100A313293}>: ; ; the octet sequence #(194) cannot be decoded. ; ; (in form starting at line: 192, column: 18, file-position: 6849) 13:07:32 hm 13:07:33 przl [~przlrkt@p54BD4D4E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 13:07:46 it's a fresh installation 13:07:51 of quicklisp et al 13:07:58 on debian wheezy 13:08:25 mrSpec [~Spec@178-37-126-70.adsl.inetia.pl] has joined #lisp 13:08:25 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@178-37-126-70.adsl.inetia.pl] has quit [Changing host] 13:08:25 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 13:08:36 I'm a bit puzzled here, I have libffi installed 13:09:02 but we're getting different errors anyway 13:09:14 it seems antik is broken 13:09:26 Some debugging is in order. 13:09:27 Posterdati: it's year 2013, and utf-8 should be the default file encoding, everywhere. 13:10:00 ogamita: :) 13:10:02 well, antik loaded for me fine, sbcl 1.1.10 on arch linux, latest quicklisp 13:11:39 antik for me didn't load 13:12:15 Posterdati: because you're pretending it's year 1990 13:12:52 not me, gsll 13:12:58 no, you 13:14:25 why? 13:14:34 I need gsll not antik 13:15:29 because your environment is not set up to utf-8 13:15:37 ah 13:15:50 and how can I setup it^ 13:15:51 ? 13:16:10 set your default locale to a one that is utf-8 13:16:22 in emacs? 13:16:33 no, in system 13:16:40 fatihp [~fatihp@78.173.241.243] has joined #lisp 13:16:52 ? 13:16:54 how? 13:17:18 Posterdati: maybe /etc/default/locale 13:17:28 oh 13:17:31 already is 13:19:53 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@internet2.cznet.cz] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net] 13:19:55 then something else in your environment is messed up. i just successfully loaded antik fresh from quicklisp, with no problems. 13:19:59 Rebellion [~androirc@unaffiliated/vergilunleashed] has joined #lisp 13:20:12 I'm checking for locales package 13:20:12 obvious but dirty fix: symlinked the ffi header files to /usr/local/include/ 13:20:27 it's seem to be a problem there! 13:20:33 -!- Rebellion [~androirc@unaffiliated/vergilunleashed] has quit [Client Quit] 13:20:35 gsll loads fine now 13:20:46 but yeah, weird that it doesn't pick up libffi on its own 13:21:01 stepnem [~stepnem@internet2.cznet.cz] has joined #lisp 13:21:14 bitonic [~user@xdsl-188-155-179-93.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 13:21:43 normanrichards [~normanric@70.114.215.220] has joined #lisp 13:21:51 ThePhoeron: because it is installed in non-standard location? 13:22:00 done! 13:22:23 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@70.114.215.220] has quit [Client Quit] 13:22:39 jdz: it's installed where arch installs all libraries 13:22:46 ikki [~ikki@201.141.77.216] has joined #lisp 13:22:53 jdz: same problem 13:23:43 normanrichards [~normanric@70.114.215.220] has joined #lisp 13:24:10 jdz: some of us simply have crazy antiks. :) 13:25:02 Arch is weird and somewhat hostile to lisp stuff. Is sbcl at least compiled properly now on Arch? 13:25:20 tiksa [~tiksa@178-222-70-254.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 13:26:12 Aramur [~arare@28.Red-81-32-228.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 13:26:32 I've never run into issues before 13:27:01 but pretty sure it's just a binary installation 13:27:03 mgile [~mgile@74-92-220-177-Colorado.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 13:27:47 jdz: thanks for locales hint 13:27:56 Harag [~Thunderbi@105-236-202-209.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 13:28:05 well, i get a different error for gsll, which is *built-in-float-types* not being in the CFFI package 13:28:36 but problem is still there 13:28:50 -!- davazp [~user@31.200.133.113] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:28:50 shall I wipe off the fasl directory? 13:29:09 which is probably because i have some stale cffi somewhere around 13:29:36 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@wirelessNAT188.wireless.temple.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:29:52 drmeister [~drmeister@wirelessNAT188.wireless.temple.edu] has joined #lisp 13:30:23 no way 13:30:51 Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 13:30:59 victor_lowther [~victorlow@143.166.116.80] has joined #lisp 13:31:03 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@wirelessNAT188.wireless.temple.edu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:31:23 ok, after removing that, i get to "gsl-config" not being found, which is probably expected. 13:31:33 drmeister [~drmeister@wirelessNAT188.wireless.temple.edu] has joined #lisp 13:37:31 -!- walter [~walter@c-24-218-217-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:37:53 jdz: no way, error still there 13:38:24 walter [~walter@c-24-218-217-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:38:37 -!- clmsy [~clmsy@212.57.9.204] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:38:44 -!- nipra [~nipra@61.12.27.114] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:39:22 adityarajbhatt [~adityaraj@182.68.28.177] has joined #lisp 13:40:11 -!- adityarajbhatt [~adityaraj@182.68.28.177] has left #lisp 13:40:58 -!- Harag [~Thunderbi@105-236-202-209.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:41:48 -!- fatihp [~fatihp@78.173.241.243] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:43:30 Wow. I didn't know that CMUCL first ran on PDP-10. :) 13:43:31 Harag [~Thunderbi@105-236-145-59.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 13:44:01 That puts the age (maturity?) of SBCL into quite some perspective. 13:45:12 That's news to me. Where can I learn more about it? 13:45:20 http://www.cons.org/cmucl/doc/cmucl-history.html 13:46:18 The whole history is apparently more than a little bit convoluted. 13:46:25 hiyosi [~skip_it@247.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has joined #lisp 13:46:34 But probably no more convoluted than CMUCL's build process. :) 13:46:38 I read that as being developed with the PDP-10 to run on another system. 13:46:42 Not to run on the PDP-10 13:46:51 But I guess it does say that 13:46:59 It says "this was where the compiler and genesis ran" 13:47:20 Probably some wacky cross-compilation scheme? 13:47:30 -!- mgile [~mgile@74-92-220-177-Colorado.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Parting is such sweet sorrow...] 13:47:32 (Scheme pun not intended :)) 13:48:14 "Hemlock was written on this platform, and was widely used by non-lisp programmers because it was the only sophisticated editor that ran on the Perq." :D 13:48:18 -!- ZabaQ [~ZabaQ@86.63.2.14] has left #lisp 13:50:06 hugod [~user@bas1-montreal08-1279346953.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 13:50:45 ken [~this@41.89.164.16] has joined #lisp 13:51:09 -!- ken is now known as Guest40633 13:51:36 -!- joast [~rick@cpe-24-160-56-92.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:52:01 segv- [~mb@95-91-242-155-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 13:52:55 mgile [~mgile@74-92-220-177-Colorado.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 13:52:59 -!- dottedli1t [~Unknown@141.0.169.95] has quit [K-Lined] 13:54:14 fortitude [~mts@rrcs-24-97-165-124.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:54:35 -!- Guest40633 [~this@41.89.164.16] has quit [Client Quit] 13:54:50 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p54BD4D4E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:55:20 -!- maxter_ [~maxter@gaffeless.chaperon.volia.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:55:52 maxter [~maxter@gaffeless.chaperon.volia.net] has joined #lisp 13:56:42 -!- Harag [~Thunderbi@105-236-145-59.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 13:57:02 -!- hugod [~user@bas1-montreal08-1279346953.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:57:37 clmsy [~clmsy@212.57.9.204] has joined #lisp 13:58:57 ndrei [~avo@LPoitiers-156-86-23-91.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 13:59:55 -!- jrajav [~jrajav@198.179.137.12] has quit [Quit: phunq, sandwich store loop, WHAT NO UNIVERSE] 14:01:17 -!- sellout- [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:01:22 fatihp [~fatihp@78.173.241.243] has joined #lisp 14:02:13 -!- bitonic [~user@xdsl-188-155-179-93.adslplus.ch] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:02:57 spacefrogg [~spacefrog@unaffiliated/spacefrogg] has joined #lisp 14:03:52 sellout- [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:04:30 billstclair [~billstcla@p-74-209-25-247.dsl1.rtr.chat.fpma.frpt.net] has joined #lisp 14:04:30 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@p-74-209-25-247.dsl1.rtr.chat.fpma.frpt.net] has quit [Changing host] 14:04:30 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 14:05:51 -!- foom [~jknight@2620:15c:6:14:be30:5bff:fedf:6db6] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:06:46 gleag: more like a whacked up maclisp 14:06:56 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@70.114.215.220] has quit [] 14:08:54 ltbarcly_ [~jvanwink@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:09:06 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 14:09:55 -!- ltbarcly [~jvanwink@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:11:24 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@wirelessNAT188.wireless.temple.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:11:28 antgreen [green@nat/redhat/x-wyhwkcvabamzzpwu] has joined #lisp 14:12:21 "PCL requires the compiler to be present at runtime" <- does this still hold true for SBCL? 14:12:37 -!- fatihp [~fatihp@78.173.241.243] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:13:56 seangrov` [~user@c-69-181-197-122.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:14:09 hiroakip [~hiroaki@37.82.179.241] has joined #lisp 14:14:35 gleag: yeah, eval on sbcl is afaik implemented via the compiler 14:14:59 Not always 14:15:06 I don't know about PCL, though. 14:15:13 Well, that would be sort of anti-climactic. 14:15:37 drmeister [~drmeister@wirelessNAT188.wireless.temple.edu] has joined #lisp 14:16:20 Xach: I suspect that while SBCL's eval is capable of evaluating simple expressions on its own, the PCL usage is probably about native code generation. 14:16:55 gleag: spice lisp was really a hacked up version of maclisp ported to run on spice (what became later the perq computer) 14:17:20 so that it ran on the 10 isn't very suprising, it was the main computer for lisp work 14:17:29 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 14:18:27 MAin Compiler for LISP. MACLISP. Makes sense! :) 14:18:36 -!- gjcross [~gjcross@ppp118-209-22-58.lns20.mel4.internode.on.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:18:41 Xach: interesting, i thought that sbcls eval was just a wrapper around compile ... 14:18:51 przl [~przlrkt@p54BD4D4E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 14:19:25 gleag: math and computation actually 14:20:07 Really? I thought that nobody knew what Project MAC actuall y meant. 14:20:13 Some say it meant Man And Computer. 14:20:25 Others claim it was Minsky Against Corby. :) 14:20:43 grubnik: It used to be, but then SBCL got an evaluator 14:20:53 -!- hiroakip [~hiroaki@37.82.179.241] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 14:21:15 Huh, it seems you're right! 14:22:16 -!- xificurC [xificurC@nat/ibm/x-edjycwwiylipgazu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:22:23 But I still like the Minsky against Corby version more. ;) 14:26:23 -!- ndrei [~avo@LPoitiers-156-86-23-91.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:27:06 -!- arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-edxeifoglbzyhvrg] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:27:23 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@wirelessNAT188.wireless.temple.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:27:39 -!- walter [~walter@c-24-218-217-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:29:20 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@158.127.31.162] has quit [Quit: Must not waste too much time here...] 14:29:30 speaking of which, reti posted a video of lisp machine hacking not so long ago .. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4-YnLpLgtk 14:30:00 ndrei [~avo@83.142.149.227] has joined #lisp 14:31:29 *Xach* had lunch with kalman last month 14:31:37 drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has joined #lisp 14:31:37 _d3f [~gnu@ip-static-94-242-252-67.as5577.net] has joined #lisp 14:31:50 Xach: nice, anything fun discussed? 14:31:52 joast [~rick@cpe-24-160-56-92.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:32:49 kalman's current company, http://abinitio.com/ 14:33:48 sounds like chemistry.... 14:33:53 not lispy, as far as i could tell, though. 14:34:00 Xach: the filter guy? 14:34:29 Xach: what is he trying to do? 14:35:02 *Xach* is happy to discuss it via private messages, as it's not lispy 14:35:18 we did also discuss some genera stuff, though! 14:35:35 -!- drugnatyn [~djanatyn@mail.digitalkingdom.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:35:41 it wasn't just me and kalman, it was a clozure lunch with several other lisp hackers 14:37:09 -!- gleag [~gleag@71.175.broadband2.iol.cz] has quit [Quit: Odcházím] 14:38:17 walter [~walter@c-24-218-217-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:40:01 -!- Aramur [~arare@28.Red-81-32-228.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Aramur] 14:40:26 -!- Cymew [~user@fw01d.snowmen.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:40:51 What's the latest Genera news? Is it possible to get an up to date emulator? Who owns the IP these days? 14:41:02 -!- reb````` is now known as reb` 14:41:30 I think John C. Mallery owns some portion of it and someone else owns some other rights related to the company 14:41:33 ... or any other interesting news ... ? 14:41:44 I've been told the story but can't keep the players and status straight in my mind. 14:42:17 ok ... I'm just curious if anything is going on these days. 14:43:10 Xach: thought it was up in limbo ... 14:43:28 I don't think that's the case. 14:43:34 as in, nobody owns it since nobody knows who has what or something 14:43:42 I think John Mallery is in control and he is eccentric. 14:43:57 I don't know, though. 14:44:11 *Xach* has never met him, knows him only through secondhand accounts and reading the eccentric cl-http license. 14:45:00 hehe 14:45:25 gleag [~gleag@71.175.broadband2.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 14:47:04 Xach: is he still at csail? 14:47:22 Weird license. 14:48:12 grubnik: I don't know 14:48:25 -!- s00pcan [~chris@108-208-64-149.lightspeed.livnmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:48:29 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 14:49:47 i have used cl-http's threading locally here..... 14:50:10 in some code, which complemented some parts..... 14:50:48 s00pcan [~chris@108-208-64-149.lightspeed.livnmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:51:02 Xach: "To view this site, you must enable Javascript. " 14:51:12 Apparently, it's a Javascript company! 14:53:21 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 14:54:44 matko [~matko@ip82-139-74-40.lijbrandt.net] has joined #lisp 14:54:52 jrajav [~jrajav@198.179.137.12] has joined #lisp 14:55:40 zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has joined #lisp 14:55:53 hiroakip [~hiroaki@37.83.12.119] has joined #lisp 14:56:34 foom [~jknight@2620:15c:6:14:be30:5bff:fedf:6db6] has joined #lisp 14:59:03 nilsi [~nilsi@218.11.176.42] has joined #lisp 14:59:29 m7w [~chatzilla@178.172.234.113] has joined #lisp 15:00:50 -!- alezost` [~user@128-70-200-170.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:00:52 -!- jrajav [~jrajav@198.179.137.12] has quit [Quit: phunq, sandwich store loop, WHAT NO UNIVERSE] 15:04:05 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p54BD4D4E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:10:08 k0001 [~k0001@host241.190-226-194.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 15:11:57 -!- Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:14:40 When using ASDF, can I define a default package to load files in, or is a (SETF *package* ...) in :around-compile the recommended way? 15:15:09 Xach: that is quite the license indeed. 15:15:37 -!- ndrei [~avo@83.142.149.227] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:16:40 flip216: It is most common to have in-package at the start of each file. I don't know if you can do something different via ASDF. 15:16:47 -!- hiroakip [~hiroaki@37.83.12.119] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:17:01 -!- arnsa [~arnsa@78-63-18-208.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:17:19 Xach: thanks, so :around-compile looks easiest. 15:18:00 flip216: What prompts the question? 15:18:03 flip216: hi, how are you? 15:19:20 ehaliewicz [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 15:20:15 Xach: I'd like to have a default package active for loaded files. 15:20:30 arnsa [~arnsa@78-63-18-208.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 15:20:30 Posterdati: fine, thanks. How are you? 15:20:38 ndrei [~avo@83.142.149.227] has joined #lisp 15:20:44 not bad, not bad 15:21:05 I'm trying to figure out an sbcl + antik + utf8 problem 15:21:45 -!- gleag [~gleag@71.175.broadband2.iol.cz] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:22:38 -!- ndrei [~avo@83.142.149.227] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:23:50 -!- francis_wolke [62cf9ba1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.98.207.155.161] has quit [Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client] 15:25:47 Vivitron [~Vivitron@c-50-172-44-193.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:26:24 gleag [~gleag@71.175.broadband2.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 15:27:03 ndrei [~avo@83.142.149.227] has joined #lisp 15:29:56 -!- Tanami [~carnage@9ch.in] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:29:58 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.141.77.216] has quit [Quit: Saliendo] 15:30:00 -!- ASau` is now known as ASau 15:31:43 Tanami [~carnage@9ch.in] has joined #lisp 15:33:22 -!- clmsy [~clmsy@212.57.9.204] has quit 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connection] 15:46:16 -!- tiksa [~tiksa@178-222-70-254.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:47:38 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 15:48:33 Shinmera [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 15:50:31 Harag [~Thunderbi@41.31.110.94] has joined #lisp 15:50:47 Kaisyu [~Kaisyu@183.109.111.173] has joined #lisp 15:51:07 ls 15:52:07 -!- hiyosi [~skip_it@247.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:52:11 lol 15:52:13 -!- ebw` is now known as ebw 15:52:34 hiyosi [~skip_it@247.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has joined #lisp 15:53:03 -!- yacks [~py@103.6.159.99] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:53:45 jrajav [~jrajav@198.179.137.12] has joined #lisp 15:56:37 przl [~przlrkt@p5DCA340B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 15:57:48 hugod [~user@bas1-montreal08-1279346953.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 15:58:16 tiksa [~tiksa@178-222-70-254.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has 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[~hiroaki@37.82.131.10] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:34:52 Adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 16:35:47 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:37:20 smazga [~acrid@64.55.45.194] has joined #lisp 16:38:18 -!- ASau [~user@p4FF971EB.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:40:42 -!- magbo [~sweater@balticom-142-125-56.balticom.lv] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:41:46 Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has joined #lisp 16:42:47 recycle_ [~recycle@198-24-198-253.static-ip.telepacific.net] has joined #lisp 16:44:51 cory786 [~cory@PAT97.wifi.utoledo.edu] has joined #lisp 16:45:41 hiroakip [~hiroaki@37.83.34.4] has joined #lisp 16:45:56 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:52:55 -!- hiroakip [~hiroaki@37.83.34.4] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:52:56 -!- rvchangue [~rvchangue@unaffiliated/rvchangue] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:53:19 ASau [~user@p4FF971EB.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 16:53:47 magbo [~sweater@balticom-142-125-56.balticom.lv] has joined #lisp 16:54:13 random history question: Have lisps always used 0-based indexing for their sequence access? 16:55:15 Off the top of my head, I don't recall any that didn't. 16:56:23 I've thought of 0-based indexing as an oddity inherited from low-level languages like C, but if Lisp has always done it, I'm confused. It could just be that it was expected in the FORTRAN days, too? 16:56:52 -!- agumonkey [~agu@253.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:56:56 -!- jrajav [~jrajav@198.179.137.12] has quit [Quit: phunq, sandwich store loop, WHAT NO UNIVERSE] 16:57:38 diadara [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has joined #lisp 16:57:39 CatMtKing [~CatMtKing@ed-uluka.dyn.ucr.edu] has joined #lisp 16:58:13 sykopomp: if I recall correctly, Fortran starts indexing from 1 16:58:20 Why oddity? It's perfectly in line with modular arithmetics. 16:59:29 gleag: I thought 0-based indexing was just because of talking about memory offsets on an array. 16:59:48 no 16:59:51 http://developeronline.blogspot.com/2008/04/why-array-index-should-start-from-0.html -- bonus, it includes a picture i made 17:00:01 Nah, that can be eliminated easily. 17:00:09 there's a Dijkstra memo where he makes the case for the lisp bounding index system 17:00:19 http://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/EWD/transcriptions/EWD08xx/EWD831.html 17:00:21 General index manipulation is a much more interesting reason. 17:00:53 -!- antgreen [green@nat/redhat/x-wyhwkcvabamzzpwu] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:01:38 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:01:39 sykopomp: If the only reason were machine-level indexed access, you could simply transform one kind of index into another by a mere word-size shift of the base address. 17:02:06 nauar [~Grunt@172.Red-2-136-134.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 17:03:00 sykopomp: Also, zero-based indexing schemes have usually an exclusive upper bound, whereas a one-based indexing scheme can be expected to have an inclusive upper bound. 17:03:03 these are awesome links. Thanks! 17:03:30 sykopomp: The inclusive upper bound makes splitting the intervals a bit brittle. It's a nice homework question. 17:04:07 StumpWM and quicklisp and asdf and slime are not playing nice today... 17:04:43 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 17:04:46 travisr [~travisrod@17.223.151.202] has joined #lisp 17:05:13 when stump tries to (ql:quickload "swank"), in my .stumpwmrc, everything hits the fan and I get an error that "Component SWANK not found" 17:05:39 however, when I run in stumpwm (asdf::find-system "swank"), it finds the path to swank.asd 17:05:51 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:06:01 sykopomp: For example: "Given both indexing schemes, write a function that applies its first argument (using FUNCALL) to all values in the interval given by the second and third argument, while correctly printing a message "X % done..." after each percent completed." 17:06:04 hi Adlai :) 17:06:45 hello fe[nl]ix ! 17:06:49 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@93.113.190.121] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:07:10 what are you up to nowadays ? 17:07:11 gleag: that does seem handy. It reminds me of the way things like subseq seem to work. 17:07:14 sykopomp: For example, it would be called like this: (progress-do-0 #'print 123 6754) would print all numbers from 123 up to and including 6753 (!) interleaved by progress messages. 17:07:22 to be precise... I'm using asdf::locate-system since asdf:find-system throws an error; and asdf::locate-system is finding the path to the .asd, but is returning NIL instead of a system object 17:07:28 -!- zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 17:08:05 sykopomp: try to write progress-do-0 and progress-do-1 (with 1-based, upper inclusive) a observe how difficult or easy it is to handle corner cases. 17:08:11 fe[nl]ix: finished the military, working as a business analyst in a mobile game company 17:08:11 -!- fortitude [~mts@rrcs-24-97-165-124.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:08:24 and slowly inching my way back into programming 17:08:39 getting stumpwm to work again would be a nice start :) 17:09:09 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Client Quit] 17:09:12 fortitude [~mts@rrcs-24-97-165-124.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:09:42 -!- diadara [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 17:10:14 ltbarcly [~textual@216.113.168.141] has joined #lisp 17:10:42 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 17:11:46 *Adlai* spelunks through asdf.lisp... 17:13:47 StumpWM is that CLX thingy? 17:13:57 that's a way to put it 17:14:51 So, no Wayland goodies in the Lispverse yet? 17:15:28 -!- seangrov` [~user@c-69-181-197-122.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:16:05 nope 17:16:17 antgreen [green@nat/redhat/x-wzumrznwfhshlmhw] has joined #lisp 17:17:50 alezost [~user@128-70-207-114.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 17:18:31 seangrov` [~user@c-69-181-197-122.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:19:06 Hah, from the Maclisp manual: "Type NIL arrays are discouraged even for those who think they know what they are doing." :) 17:20:00 -!- dkordic [~danilo@93-87-124-217.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 17:20:33 genkinodenki [~migrayn@dsl-vntbrasgw1-50dc7f-98.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 17:22:10 DalekBaldwin [~Adium@66-146-163-200.skyriver.net] has 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[~eeezkil@unaffiliated/eeezkil] has joined #lisp 17:36:13 cory786 [~cory@PAT97.wifi.utoledo.edu] has joined #lisp 17:37:40 Who could have thought it'd be as simple as (asdf::clear-source-registry) ? 17:38:10 didn't even have to restart stumpwm... just flushed the registry, then M-: loadrc 17:41:16 -!- seangrov` [~user@c-69-181-197-122.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:43:01 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@107.201.4.22] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 17:43:54 mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has joined #lisp 17:45:50 -!- cory786 [~cory@PAT97.wifi.utoledo.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:46:06 -!- travisr [~travisrod@17.223.151.202] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 17:46:35 -!- antgreen [green@nat/redhat/x-wzumrznwfhshlmhw] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 17:48:10 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 17:49:45 agumonkey [~agu@253.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 17:53:26 -!- teggi [~teggi@123.20.116.221] has quit [Remote host 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quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:40:14 yakov [~yakov@94.25.229.3] has joined #lisp 18:40:16 drmeiste_ [~drmeister@wirelessNAT188.wireless.temple.edu] has joined #lisp 18:40:23 sdemarre [~serge@91.180.75.253] has joined #lisp 18:41:47 DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has joined #lisp 18:43:23 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p5DCA340B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:44:46 francogrex [~user@109.133.132.91] has joined #lisp 18:44:48 hi 18:45:10 -!- ebw [~user@g226193093.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:46:29 antgreen_ [green@nat/redhat/x-bwyluekfaucrlxeq] has joined #lisp 18:47:10 nipra [~nipra@122.177.214.226] has joined #lisp 18:47:33 -!- antgreen [green@nat/redhat/x-ccwlabmxxwvmzeuk] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:48:04 -!- drmeiste_ [~drmeister@wirelessNAT188.wireless.temple.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:49:32 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 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timeout: 264 seconds] 19:21:19 tiksa [~tiksa@178-222-70-254.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 19:22:32 Is SIGNED-BYTE supposed to be able to handle any number of bits? When are the number of bits specified? 19:23:37 signed-byte does not have a limite. (signed-byte ) is limited to bits. 19:25:26 -!- Okasu [~1@unaffiliated/okasu] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:28:11 slyrus [~chatzilla@173-228-44-92.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 19:28:12 -!- Aramur [~arare@28.Red-81-32-228.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Aramur] 19:28:19 ldionmarcil [~maden@dsl-66-36-146-191.mtl.aei.ca] has joined #lisp 19:28:29 -!- ldionmarcil [~maden@dsl-66-36-146-191.mtl.aei.ca] has quit [Changing host] 19:28:29 ldionmarcil [~maden@unaffiliated/maden] has joined #lisp 19:29:55 If I use (with-open-file (s "temp-bytes" :direction :input :element-type 'unsigned-byte) (let ((x (read-byte s))) x) and "temp-bytes" contains lots of 8-bit bytes - what gets returned? The first (unsigned-byte 8) byte? The first 16-bit (unsigned-byte 16)? The entire file (unsigned-byte ) byte? 19:31:04 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:32:35 Do I need to specify :element-type '(unsigned-byte 8) to get 8-bit bytes or :element-type '(unsigned-byte 16) to get 16-bit bytes? 19:33:10 The latter makes a lot of sense. 19:33:17 To me at least. 19:34:35 -!- alezost [~user@128-70-200-152.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:35:01 *|3b|* would expect implementation-defined behavior from element-type :unsigned-byte (or maybe undefined) 19:35:38 <|3b|> actually, looks like it would be nonconformant to do that 19:35:56 -!- foeniks [~fevon@p5083F17B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:36:05 <|3b|> element-type--- ... type specifier for a finite recognizable subtype of integer; 19:36:50 -!- benkard [~benkard@2a01:198:6d5:0:dcd7:e2dd:4981:69e2] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz] 19:36:53 Right - I just saw that. (just when I think I'm getting the hang of this). 19:38:46 -!- motionman [~motionman@unaffiliated/motionman] has quit [Quit: tschüß] 19:40:18 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ho1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 19:41:08 Adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 19:48:31 hiroakip [~hiroaki@77-20-192-229-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 19:51:39 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:52:09 -!- _d3f [~gnu@ip-static-94-242-252-67.as5577.net] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.1] 19:52:34 void64 [~luke@178.121.57.240] has joined #lisp 19:54:46 -!- Shinmera [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has quit [Quit: brb] 19:55:58 -!- Karl_dscc [~localhost@ipdsw03.informatik.fh-schmalkalden.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:56:33 Okasu [~1@unaffiliated/okasu] has joined #lisp 19:57:43 Shinmera [~linus@80.77.87.239] has joined #lisp 19:59:47 drmeister [~drmeister@wirelessNAT188.wireless.temple.edu] has joined #lisp 20:00:23 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:01:47 -!- `fogus [~fogus@freedom.d-a-s.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:05:21 -!- matko [~matko@ip82-139-74-40.lijbrandt.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:07:13 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 20:10:59 -!- nipra [~nipra@122.177.214.226] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:11:11 -!- francogrex [~user@109.133.132.91] has left #lisp 20:12:28 bgs100 [~nitrogen@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 20:15:08 cory786 [~cory@PAT96.wifi.utoledo.edu] has joined #lisp 20:16:54 -!- m7w [~chatzilla@178.172.234.113] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20:21:45 -!- travisr [~travisrod@17.223.151.202] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:24:28 -!- cyphase_ [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has quit [Quit: cyphase.com] 20:24:33 dex7er [~dex7er@177.182.7.210] has joined #lisp 20:26:39 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ho1.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:28:40 -!- eldariof [~CLD@pppoe-204-110-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:29:10 -!- dex7er [~dex7er@177.182.7.210] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 20:29:53 -!- tiksa [~tiksa@178-222-70-254.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has left #lisp 20:31:54 -!- jewel [~jewel@105-236-146-135.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:32:31 cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has joined #lisp 20:33:45 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 20:37:46 -!- eeezkil [~eeezkil@unaffiliated/eeezkil] has quit [Quit: ^D] 20:39:59 -!- ldionmarcil [~maden@unaffiliated/maden] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:43:46 -!- arnsa [~arnsa@78-63-18-208.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:44:53 -!- cory786 [~cory@PAT96.wifi.utoledo.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:45:22 -!- segv- [~mb@95-91-242-155-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:46:02 danielszmulewicz [~danielszm@185.3.146.222] has joined #lisp 20:47:39 travisr [~travisrod@17.223.151.202] has joined #lisp 20:47:55 -!- danielszmulewicz [~danielszm@185.3.146.222] has quit [Client Quit] 20:48:54 bad_alloc [~bad_alloc@ABordeaux-157-1-33-63.w90-30.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 20:51:49 Hi, when I enter (car (0 . 0)) in SBCL I get the error "The value 0 is not of type LIST." Why do I have to quote the cons cell to make this work? (i.e. (car '(0 . 0))) 20:51:51 segv- [~mb@95-91-242-155-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 20:52:22 -!- drmeiste_ [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:52:27 bad_alloc: it's actually the second 0 that's triggering that error. It thinks you're trying to call a function called 0 with arguments 0 20:52:42 bad_alloc: (car (cons 0 0)) is the version without ' 20:52:58 and if you don't get what ' does, you should start by understanding what (0 0) does if you put it into plain lisp code 20:54:57 sykopomp: That calls the function "0" with the argument 0. I was just confused since I thought (0 . 0) is equivalent to (cons 0 0) 20:55:20 it's not, because an unquoted (0....) means you're trying to call a function called 0. 20:55:41 it's like trying to write (car (foo 1)) and expecting 'foo back. 20:55:51 or (car (car 0)) and expecting 'car back. 20:56:03 -!- travisr [~travisrod@17.223.151.202] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:56:05 -!- void64 [~luke@178.121.57.240] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:56:35 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@wirelessNAT188.wireless.temple.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:57:21 drmeister [~drmeister@wirelessNAT188.wireless.temple.edu] has joined #lisp 20:58:51 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.180.75.253] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:59:11 i 20:59:13 hi 20:59:46 -!- jrajav [~jrajav@198.179.137.12] has quit [Quit: phunq, sandwich store loop, WHAT NO UNIVERSE] 21:02:10 travisr [~travisrod@17.223.151.202] has joined #lisp 21:02:14 bananagram [~bot@c-76-30-158-226.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:02:44 -!- knob [~knob@76.76.202.244] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:03:00 andreh [~andreh@186.214.154.23] has joined #lisp 21:03:40 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@wirelessNAT188.wireless.temple.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:03:59 -!- sellout- [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:04:40 -!- add^_ [~user@m37-3-55-160.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: zzz] 21:05:42 sellout- [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:06:54 -!- bad_alloc [~bad_alloc@ABordeaux-157-1-33-63.w90-30.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 21:09:39 void64 [~luke@178.122.48.119] has joined #lisp 21:11:23 -!- prxq_ [~mommer@mnhm-590c3020.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:11:52 sykopomp: I wonder, though, why SBCL doesn't barf upon encountering the first zero. 21:12:13 Seeing as 0 is neither a symbol not a list beginning with the symbol LAMBDA 21:14:36 jrajav [~jrajav@198.179.137.12] has joined #lisp 21:15:49 gleag: it's not specified whether the argument forms are evaluated first or the function form is looked up as a function. 21:16:13 that's why you can't rely on something like (foo (defun foo (x) x)) returning FOO. 21:16:15 It's interesting to see if there's a specific reason SBCL does it in that order, though. 21:16:22 -!- antgreen_ [green@nat/redhat/x-bwyluekfaucrlxeq] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:16:25 Ah, that would make sense. 21:18:37 The funny thing is, CCL barfs at the 0 in advance, but (foo (defun foo (x) x)) still returns foo. 21:19:05 I guess it only checks the correctness of the function name, but actually retrieves the function only later. 21:19:10 see http://l1sp.org/cl/3.1.2.1.2.3 21:20:08 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@internet2.cznet.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:23:25 Hmm. Is there any particular reason why function names (setf <...>) can't be operators? 21:23:27 rvchangue [~rvchangue@unaffiliated/rvchangue] has joined #lisp 21:24:27 gleag: you mean why you can't do ((setf foo) ...)? 21:25:01 I think the reason you can do ((lambda () ...) ...) at all is for backwards-compatibility reasons, so if that's true, it's not terribly surprising. 21:25:18 -!- munge [~user@cpe-098-024-201-145.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:25:52 Essentially, yes. It's a function name, I'd expect it to be callable - unless there's something like "the calling conventions for the resulting function may be implementation-defined" in the way. 21:26:32 drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has joined #lisp 21:27:26 setf functions are the same as other functions, other than the name, though... 21:27:27 only symbols and lambda expressions are allowed, and I think the lambda expressions are allowed grudgingly for backwards-compat. 21:27:48 Because you should write (setf (foo x y z) new-value) instead of ((setf foo) new-value x y z). 21:28:09 tiksa [~tiksa@178-222-70-254.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 21:28:23 drmeiste_ [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has joined #lisp 21:28:51 -!- tiksa [~tiksa@178-222-70-254.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:29:53 tiksa [~tiksa@178-222-70-254.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 21:30:29 sykopomp: Actually, I think that the fact that lambda expressions are allowed as callable function names is logical if you strive for notational completeness. 21:31:49 -!- void64 [~luke@178.122.48.119] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:32:30 It lets you write easily macros: (defmacro c (function-name) `(,c 42)) (c sin) (c (lambda (x) (* x x))) 21:32:46 s/,c/,function-name/ 21:33:07 (lambda (a) (+ a 2)) is simply the name of a function that adds 2 to its argument. Since you don't have any named function here, you're essentially referencing it by naming its properties. 21:34:03 "so I'm implementing a scheme which is like racket, except done right. Thank you, but I think I know what I'm doing. Now I don't know how to implement TCO, could somebody help me out?" 21:34:06 It's like saying "I saw Peter with John and the guy with the beard and the piercing." 21:34:13 what is it about schemes that draws people like that? 21:34:46 "Peter", "John", and "the guy with the beard and the piercing" are all servicable references. 21:35:09 Despite the fact that one of them is not a name in the strictest sense. 21:35:18 objects..... 21:35:32 What objects? 21:36:07 peter, john, and "the guy with the beard and the piercing" objects.... 21:36:15 oleo: Ceci n'est pas une pipe. 21:36:34 Peter is the name of the entity Peter. 21:36:40 But they're not the same thing. 21:36:41 ja 21:37:02 gleag: "function names" are not callable 21:37:38 Bronsa [~bronco@host218-185-dynamic.0-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 21:37:48 ((function car) ()) is not a legal call either 21:39:37 and names of functions aren't callable either. Functions are, and it just so happens that a list of the form (func ...) where FUNC is known to be defined as a function is defined to have the same effect as (funcall (function func) ...) 21:40:06 (function car) is not a function name. 21:40:41 it qualifies it as a function ? 21:40:48 you call that a function designator ? 21:40:55 Nope. 21:41:04 which puts ito the class funcallable-instances ? 21:41:07 Why would I? 21:41:33 It's a special operator, therfore a form, not just any old expression. 21:41:43 ah 21:41:43 gleag: and (lambda () ...) isn't a function name either. In fact it isn't even a function, it's a macro expanding to (function (lambda () ...)), and FUNCTION special forms of this shape are allowed to be the first element of lists representing function calls 21:41:59 mathrick: function names are callable: (funcall 'sin 42) (sin 42) both work. 21:42:35 (funcall #'sin 42) 21:42:38 functions themselves are not applicable: (#.(function sin) 42) breaks. (funcall #.(function sin) 42) works, but can't be saved to a fasl file. 21:42:52 oleo: #'sin doesn't return a function name, it returns a function. 21:42:55 pjb: not really, FUNCALL accepts function designators that are symbols. But you don't call the name, you call the fdefinition of that symbol 21:42:57 'sin returns a function name. 21:43:00 mathrick: I sort of think that this was oversight on the part of the ANSI people. It ought to be name. 21:43:15 mathrick: well, right. 21:43:20 -!- fortitude [~mts@rrcs-24-97-165-124.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:43:28 Only functions are callable internally. 21:43:31 -!- Bronsa [~bronco@host218-185-dynamic.0-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has left #lisp 21:43:34 gleag: there's no oversight, CL is a lisp-2, or lisp-N perhaps with N>1 21:43:40 But you still cannot write (#.(function sin) 42). 21:44:01 mathrick: This has nothing to do with Lisp-2 or Lisp-whatever. 21:45:01 It's simply the paradigmatic substitutability of proper names and descriptive names as equally valid noun phrases. 21:45:13 gleag: you mean why you can't do ((setf foo) ...)? 21:45:20 gleag: it has everything to do with lisp-2 21:45:22 void64 [~luke@178.122.174.21] has joined #lisp 21:45:42 Where CAR is a proper name and (LAMBDA (X) (+ X 2)) is a descriptive name ("the function that adds 2 to its argument"). 21:45:49 scheme is a lisp-1, and lets you do (let ((f #'car)) (f (cons 1 2))) 21:46:05 Aramur [~arare@28.Red-81-32-228.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 21:46:18 CL isn't, and consequently "function names" are only that in very specific positions 21:46:21 mathrick: No, it really doesn't have *anything* to do with Lisp-2/Lisp-1 21:46:31 gleag: note that you can do (funcall #'(setf foo) ...) if it's defined as a function. 21:46:37 and function names and actual functions are not, in general, interchangable 21:46:38 mathrick: You're not reading what I'm writing. 21:46:49 Xach: Please add github.com/brown/snappy to Quicklisp. It is an implementation of Google Snappy data compression. 21:47:05 reb`: i think you're supposed to file an issue rather than ask in here 21:47:18 mathrick: in scheme, it's (let ((f car)) (f (cons 1 2))) ; there's no point for #' 21:47:26 pjb: point! 21:47:51 "(let ((f #'car)) (f (cons 1 2)))" has absolutely nothing to do with what I was talking about. 21:48:15 Bike: Thanks. I found something in the Quicklisp FAQ about adding projects. 21:48:19 I do not expect the car of the compound form to be evaluated. 21:48:30 gleag: yes I am, you want to do ((setf foo) ...), and that's an error for the same reason (#'car ...) is, and that reason being that *function names* are only defined to stand for function invocation in very specific positions, those positions being "first element of a list beginning with a symbol that has an fdefinition" 21:48:51 clhs function name/g 21:48:56 oh, how did that work 21:49:07 mathrick: I wasn't talking about (setf anything). 21:49:40 then you made extra sure not to say what you're talking about, because reading your previous lines doesn't reveal anything other than that 21:50:15 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 21:50:45 mathrick: "Where CAR is a proper name and (LAMBDA (X) (+ X 2)) is a descriptive name ("the function that adds 2 to its argument")." <- I think that this sentence which I'm repeating again should have been enought of a clue of what I was talking about. 21:51:35 -!- travisr [~travisrod@17.223.151.202] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:53:46 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 21:53:56 In other words, I was not saying that all function names as per ANSI spec ought to be operators, I was saying that lambda expressions ought to be function names based on their linguistic properties (they're designating an object in a descriptive way in the same sense that symbol names are designating it as proper names). I really don't see where SETF names come into equation and I certainly wasn't asking for them to be usable as operators. 21:54:00 It's simply the paradigmatic substitutability of proper names and descriptive names as equally valid noun phrases. <-- which, again, operates on the assumption that "functions" and "function names" are completely interchangable in any and all contexts. Which is a sensible assumption in Lisp-1, but is NOT in a Lisp-2. ((setf foo) ...) is just one of many things CL doesn't let you do, because it won't call "any function-like thing in the head of a l 21:54:00 ist". It enumerates the situations in which "thing in the head of a list" means function call, and there are two situations like that 21:54:19 1) (SYM ...), where SYM is a symbol and has an fdefinition 21:54:23 gleag: but fundamentally, the difference between ((lambda (x) (* x x)) 24) and ((setf foo) new-value x y z), is that setf is a user-level defined macro, while the previous is fundamental ("special-form" like) syntax. 21:54:25 WarWeasle [~Kaltara@162.72.14.206] has joined #lisp 21:54:30 2) ((lambda () ...) ...) 21:55:01 "which, again, operates on the assumption that "functions" and "function names" are completely interchangable in any and all contexts" <- that's nonsense. 21:55:10 gleag: those, and only those, are acceptable shapes of lists which will be interpreted as function calls 21:55:29 gleag: you could define your own macro that would resolve to some (my-own-stuff foo) designators, where you could write: (my-own-stuff (foo x y z) whatever) that would get translated to some (foo whatever x y z) or other call. 21:55:39 -!- ndrei [~avo@83.142.149.227] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:55:39 Functions are designata, a symbol is a designans and a lambda expression is a different designans. 21:56:04 I was nowhere conflating designants (names) and dedignata (objects). 21:56:09 designata... 21:56:52 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@93.113.190.121] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:56:57 gleag: a more pragmatic explanation is that non-symbol names were introduced late in the game, and not everything was updated to take that into account. But that doesn't really limit you in any way, because (SYM ...) is really a shorthand for (funcall (function SYM) ...) 21:57:11 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:57:56 mathrick: That would require, e.g., (setf (funcall (function SYM) ... ) ...) to be equivalent to (setf (SYM ...) ...). Is it indeed? 21:57:57 it still doesn't change the fact that in a Lisp-2, not any function-valued thing in the head position will result in a function call 21:58:13 gleag: no, because SETF is a special form 21:58:21 no it isn't. 21:58:29 So it's not a shorthand, then. 21:58:39 oh right, they're defined as macros 21:58:44 drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has joined #lisp 21:58:49 so it's a macro 21:58:57 which still means it has its own evaluation rules 21:59:01 mathrick: the original point here is that (sym ...) being a shorthand for (funcall (function sym) ...) doesn't extend to the list case, e.g. ((setf foo) ...) being equivalent to (funcall (function (setf foo)) ...) even though the latter is perfectly legal. 21:59:17 jack_rabbit [~kyle@c-98-253-60-75.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:00:38 Bike: I don't think you can say "extend to" with the direction of the relation being what it is. "Doesn't have a counterpart in" would be more like it 22:01:21 whatever. you're drawing a basic equivalence but restricting it to only symbols for no obvious reason, is what i meant. 22:01:53 -!- willyfrog [~willyfrog@146.255.102.14.gigas.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:02:52 -!- rvchangue [~rvchangue@unaffiliated/rvchangue] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 22:03:09 -!- void64 [~luke@178.122.174.21] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:03:13 mathrick: I think I'm beginning to understand how you might have been confused into thinking that I'm asking CL to be a Lisp-1 based on asking for lambda expressions to be names. But my point really was that I was thinking of them as expressions in the sense of being S-expressions, not expressions in the sense of compound, "evaluatable" forms. The former does not require any evaluation of the operator in the EVAL sense. 22:03:24 ndrei [~avo@83.142.149.227] has joined #lisp 22:04:04 -!- victor_lowther [~victorlow@143.166.116.80] has quit [Quit: Leaving IRC - dircproxy 1.2.0] 22:04:15 In a sense, the latter function, if I understand it correctly, was served in CL by *also* making lambdas macros as well. 22:04:35 Bike: the obvious reason is that (sym ...) is fundamentally just syntactic sugar for (funcall (function sym) ...), AND (setf foo ...) is syntactic sugar for (funcall (function (setf foo) ...). The underlying form is (funcall THING), and that's perfectly consistent and symmetrical. The sugars differ based on the shape of THING, but that's not really inconsistent, it just means that differently-shaped THINGs are meant to be used differently 22:04:43 sugar is there only for convenience 22:05:48 Well, sometimes sugar is there for consistency. :) 22:06:05 mathrick: (setf foo ...) isn't really sugar for (funcall (function (setf foo)) ...). besides the whole macro thing, the argument order changes; (setf (foo ...a...) b) <=> (funcall (setf foo) b ...a...) assuming no other expansion. 22:06:44 i mean, that's still simple, but it's hardly the same as (foo ...) = (funcall foo ...) 22:06:44 Bike: yes, I'm aware of that, the ... was meant to mean "whatever comes in there", not necessarily that one ... is EQ another ... 22:07:02 since in that case the ellipses are the same. 22:07:03 it's not = (funcal foo) 22:07:13 funcall function foo. whatever. 22:07:42 -!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:07:46 -!- nauar [~Grunt@172.Red-2-136-134.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [] 22:07:47 -!- foreignFunction [~niksaak@ip-4761.sunline.net.ua] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:08:01 rvchangue [~rvchangue@unaffiliated/rvchangue] has joined #lisp 22:08:12 Bike: it's still a sugar. You're not expected to use (SETF FOO)-shaped functions directly, which is why they get their own special sugar 22:08:31 just like they have their own special shape for designators 22:08:32 -!- bitonic [~user@xdsl-188-155-179-93.adslplus.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 22:08:40 you can, though... 22:08:53 you can, but then you deal with the unsugared form 22:08:54 i have no idea what the bickering is about, but i can just point that FUNCALL can only call symbols or functions, not '(setf function) 22:12:07 in other news, elisp is such a pain 22:12:23 I keep expecting it to be CL and then getting burnt 22:13:21 travisr [~travisrod@17.223.151.202] has joined #lisp 22:14:49 void64 [~luke@178.122.56.88] has joined #lisp 22:17:36 -!- agumonkey [~agu@253.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 22:17:49 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:18:06 -!- rvchangue [~rvchangue@unaffiliated/rvchangue] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:18:33 ISF [~ivan@201.82.138.219] has joined #lisp 22:20:10 pillton [~user@124-171-213-21.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 22:21:01 -!- void64 [~luke@178.122.56.88] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:21:08 void64 [~luke@178.122.56.88] has joined #lisp 22:24:01 rvchangue [~rvchangue@unaffiliated/rvchangue] has joined #lisp 22:25:23 -!- jrajav [~jrajav@198.179.137.12] has quit [Quit: I tend to be neutral about apples] 22:25:32 -!- andreh [~andreh@186.214.154.23] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 22:25:50 What one could argue, is either for (fdefinition '(setf foo)) not to work, or (setf (fdefinition '(my-random-sexp and other things)) (function x)) to work. 22:26:40 I'd vote the for the later, it would avoid some strange |(thing or other)| function names. 22:28:18 -!- bulibuta [~bulibuta@irofti.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:30:00 -!- void64 [~luke@178.122.56.88] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:33:28 -!- ehu` [ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 22:34:33 svs_ [~svs@104-252-AGAVEBB-NM.abq.nm.agavebb.net] has joined #lisp 22:35:10 mathrick: Write a better editor. :) 22:36:40 gleag: I'd like to, or even better, for someone to pick up climacs again 22:38:19 These days, one ought to write an editor with collaboration and interface independence in mind from the start. I suspect climacs might satisfy rhe latter, what about the former? 22:38:27 -!- mgile [~mgile@74-92-220-177-Colorado.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Parting is such sweet sorrow...] 22:38:29 -!- ehaliewicz [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:40:04 gleag: the former might be not hard to do, the buffer representation has gone through a lot of revisions to ensure it can take whatever you can throw at it 22:40:29 In fact, having a fully general implementation of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operational_transformation and then applying it onto a plain text editor as a specidic case could be an even better idea. 22:41:03 -!- rvchangue [~rvchangue@unaffiliated/rvchangue] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:41:12 -!- francis_wolke [62cf9ba1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.98.207.155.161] has quit [Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client] 22:41:43 (Or some similar technique for handling generic collaborative editing of stuff...) 22:42:03 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@rrcs-108-178-120-144.sw.biz.rr.com] has quit [] 22:42:05 void64 [~luke@37.17.115.98] has joined #lisp 22:42:29 gleag, thanks for the link. I'm tring to make 3dmacs, the next gereration medaeditr. 22:43:29 bitonic [~user@xdsl-188-155-179-93.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 22:43:33 That was media editor 22:45:13 ltbarcly [~textual@12.250.97.26] has joined #lisp 22:45:41 -!- fikusz [~fikusz@catv-89-132-137-62.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:46:06 rvchangue [~rvchangue@unaffiliated/rvchangue] has joined #lisp 22:47:57 francis_wolke [62cf9ba1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.98.207.155.161] has joined #lisp 22:47:58 -!- svs_ [~svs@104-252-AGAVEBB-NM.abq.nm.agavebb.net] has quit [Quit: svs_] 22:48:41 svs_ [~svs@104-252-AGAVEBB-NM.abq.nm.agavebb.net] has joined #lisp 22:49:37 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 22:49:38 -!- francis_wolke [62cf9ba1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.98.207.155.161] has quit [Client Quit] 22:51:15 -!- bitonic [~user@xdsl-188-155-179-93.adslplus.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:51:25 fikusz [~fikusz@catv-89-132-137-62.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 22:52:17 drmeister [~drmeister@mobile-166-147-109-021.mycingular.net] has joined #lisp 22:53:03 persizzl [~persizzl@unaffiliated/persizzl] has joined #lisp 22:53:22 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@12.250.97.26] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 22:54:22 -!- WarWeasle [~Kaltara@162.72.14.206] has quit [Quit: AndroIRC - Android IRC Client ( http://www.androirc.com )] 22:56:11 normanrichards [~normanric@70.114.215.220] has joined #lisp 22:56:12 reb`: woo 22:57:02 -!- svs_ [~svs@104-252-AGAVEBB-NM.abq.nm.agavebb.net] has quit [Quit: svs_] 22:58:22 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:59:16 -!- void64 [~luke@37.17.115.98] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:59:26 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@173-228-44-92.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:00:25 WarWeasle [~Kaltara@162.72.14.206] has joined #lisp 23:00:31 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@mobile-166-147-109-021.mycingular.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:00:45 svs_ [~svs@104-252-AGAVEBB-NM.abq.nm.agavebb.net] has joined #lisp 23:05:28 slyrus [~chatzilla@173-228-44-92.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 23:05:52 -!- drmeiste_ [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:06:02 -!- WarWeasle [~Kaltara@162.72.14.206] has quit [Quit: AndroIRC - Android IRC Client ( http://www.androirc.com )] 23:07:18 -!- Okasu [~1@unaffiliated/okasu] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:07:58 -!- EvW [~Thunderbi@a82-92-190-215.adsl.xs4all.nl] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:09:10 EvW [~Thunderbi@a82-92-190-215.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 23:10:57 how can I do (defvar stuff "hey #\tab there") 23:11:14 (format nil "hey ~c there" #\Tab) 23:11:28 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 23:13:37 Also, CL-INTERPOL could perhaps be of some use here? 23:13:55 -!- persizzl [~persizzl@unaffiliated/persizzl] has left #lisp 23:13:57 http://weitz.de/cl-interpol/#backslash 23:14:01 void64 [~luke@178.122.52.145] has joined #lisp 23:14:04 drmeister [~drmeister@mobile-166-147-109-021.mycingular.net] has joined #lisp 23:15:17 -!- ndrei [~avo@83.142.149.227] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:15:50 perfect thank Bike ;) 23:16:29 -!- Shinmera [~linus@80.77.87.239] has quit [Quit: ZzZ] 23:17:18 nightshade427: just type a tab there! In emacs, type C-q TAB 23:17:59 Well, I mean, you could just do that, but format or #.(format nil "hey ~C there" #\Tab) is better. 23:18:57 #?"hey\there" seems to also work (with weitzware applied). 23:20:50 is there a good way to string-trim whitespace or should I use ppcre? 23:21:12 (string-trim " " string). 23:21:16 whitespace = #\newline #\tab #\space etc ... 23:21:18 Why would you use regexps for that? 23:21:37 (string-trim #(#\newline #\tab #\space) string) 23:21:58 is that only three that are whitespace? 23:22:13 # 23:22:28 #\vt #\linefeed #\return #\page 23:22:30 i usually just use regex replace with whitespace group 23:22:30 nightshade427: what kind of thing are you making? 23:22:36 and in unicode a lot of others. 23:23:03 I usually avoid to rely on things doing undocumented things. 23:23:23 -!- doomlord [~doomlod@host86-180-26-144.range86-180.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:23:42 Who knows what unicode characters are included in character classes by the various regexp libraries, under the various locale conditions. Do they even depend on the unix locale or not? 23:23:47 You lose all control! 23:24:24 "Who knows what unicode characters are included in character classes by the various regexp libraries" <- the various regexp libraries' documentation? :-) 23:24:33 pjb: ya its unicode and I dont want to worry about all those, i usually do "string with unicode".gsub(/^\s/umi, '') 23:24:58 I'd have thought that Unicode character classes would be somewhat respected in libraries. 23:25:29 is there similar for CL? 23:25:33 And is this what you want??? 23:25:53 The most awful thing to do is to have ls sort files according to locale! 23:26:16 i just want to trim the beginning white space off front of string and can be any unicode whitespace 23:26:33 If the user puts a non-breaking space, does he expect it to be trimed? 23:27:15 Is it documented? Do YOU document what characters will be trimed? What if you upgrade the libraries? Will YOUR documentation be updated? 23:27:16 ryankarason [~rak@108-245-58-182.lightspeed.clmboh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:27:24 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-180-111.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:27:28 This is just a big can of worms. 23:27:34 Hence NIH. 23:27:41 -!- smazga [~acrid@64.55.45.194] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.3.4] 23:28:00 i usually do "this is a string".gsub(/^\s*/umi, '') and it handles it for me (ruby) 23:28:29 Is it documented? Do YOU document what characters will be trimed? What if you upgrade the libraries? Will YOUR documentation be updated? 23:28:50 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@mobile-166-147-109-021.mycingular.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:29:05 no need to document, it handles everything i have thrown at it 23:29:14 its internal method for stripping html nodes 23:29:18 Is it even written in the Ruby standard what character \s are? Do any Ruby implementation respect this Ruby standard specification if any??? 23:30:16 your making it too complex, it doesnt matter ;) I just want to trim the beginning of string of whitepspace, whatever method works in 99.999999% cases is fine as long as its simple like above ;) 23:30:56 (string-trim " " is-good-enough-for-99.99999%-of-the-cases) 23:30:57 was just wondering if there was something I could put into the character bag of string-trim or if I had to resort to ppcre lib ;) 23:31:56 but there are hundred of unicode whitepace, do I have to put each one if I use string-trim? Or just use ppcre and use character classes? 23:32:15 Have you ever seen another white space character than #\space or #\tab? 23:32:24 yes 23:32:28 lots 23:32:31 And those pesky non breaking spaces some web software likes to insert? 23:33:17 I've never seen any of those unicode spaces or newlines even. 23:33:22 sounds like for string-trim there is no character classes so I would have to put all (from clhs) so I will just use ppcre ;) 23:33:40 jangle [~jimmy1984@c-98-233-111-131.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:33:46 If that's what you need, by all means. 23:34:25 i have ;) we translate sites from all over the world, we transcode the encodings to unicode and normalize them to uniform format, then translate them ;) 23:34:33 my favourite is the zero width non-breaking space 23:34:41 lots of differing spaces and whitespace to worry about ;) 23:34:57 thanks guys, sounds like ppcre it is ;) 23:35:40 Read the doc, and have a string of all those white spaces to test it on. 23:36:22 nightshade427: does cl-ppcre understand each of those unicode whitespcae characters? 23:36:31 not sure, looking now ;) 23:37:27 -!- jangle [~jimmy1984@c-98-233-111-131.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 23:39:09 walter|r [~walter@c-24-218-217-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:41:00 ya, looks like I have to load cl-ppcre-unicode though to make it work. 23:42:46 thanks will give this a shot ;) 23:42:50 nightshade427: is that system delivered with cl-ppcre through quicklisp? 23:43:04 not sure about to find out 23:43:24 if not I can download and add to local project if needed 23:43:39 just glad there is a way that seems in theory should work 23:43:57 DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@120.154.172.222] has joined #lisp 23:47:57 -!- walter|r [~walter@c-24-218-217-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:48:14 cfdm` [~user@c-71-235-86-108.hsd1.ct.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:49:00 cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has joined #lisp 23:49:09 walter|r [~walter@c-24-218-217-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:49:50 ya seems quicklisp provides this ;) 23:49:56 makes my job easier 23:51:52 -!- pillton [~user@124-171-213-21.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:52:04 nbouscal [~nbouscal@pool-72-89-172-52.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:54:27 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-185-168-200.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:54:49 jangle [~jimmy1984@c-98-233-111-131.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:56:58 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@70.114.215.220] has quit [] 23:57:20 yakov [~yakov@128-69-12-163.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 23:58:48 mrrob [~teh_cake@173-17-176-102.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 23:59:59 -!- jangle [~jimmy1984@c-98-233-111-131.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: jangle]