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timeout: 245 seconds] 00:57:30 -!- Shinmera [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has quit [Quit: ZzZ] 00:58:56 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-185-168-200.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:59:00 ndrei [~avo@83.142.149.227] has joined #lisp 01:04:56 -!- Aramur [~arare@135.Red-79-148-14.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Aramur] 01:04:59 -!- arare [~Aramur@153.68.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Quit: arare] 01:05:51 -!- bitonic [~user@xdsl-188-155-179-93.adslplus.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:18:56 -!- SrPx [~SrPx@177.133.101.131.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has quit [Quit: SrPx] 01:23:56 LiamH [~none@96.231.222.26] has joined #lisp 01:25:01 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@internet2.cznet.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:27:29 -!- JuanDaugherty [~Ren@cpe-76-180-168-166.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:29:24 hello 01:29:32 why doesnt this work: 01:29:34 (defun get-data () (with-open-file (stream "/etc/lilo.conf") (let* ((the-file (read stream)) (format t "~S" the-file))))) 01:29:57 your let* is wrong? 01:30:35 zacharias [~zacharias@unaffiliated/zacharias] has joined #lisp 01:30:58 how so 01:31:06 -!- aw|incendiary [~zacharias@unaffiliated/zacharias] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:31:19 you have format as a variable. 01:33:19 ok i fixed it it still doesnt work 01:33:47 dottedlist: what does it do? 01:33:47 i added another ) 01:34:04 *** - READ from 01:34:05 # 01:34:05 #> 01:34:05 : an object cannot start with #\) 01:34:36 oh i see 01:34:44 lilo.conf starts with # 01:34:53 heh 01:35:04 yeah, lilo.conf is probably not in sexp format 01:35:11 which READ expects 01:35:31 might do read-line, or snarf in chunks via read-sequence 01:35:41 but your error is from your terminal io... 01:36:13 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:36:43 it still doesnt work even on a file with just d's 01:38:26 i got it to work :) 01:38:32 i had too many )'s 01:45:22 /join #coconuts 01:45:26 oops 01:45:53 -!- persizzl [~persizzl@unaffiliated/persizzl] has quit [Quit: persizzl] 01:45:58 guyal [~anonymous@108-235-117-64.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:46:52 persizzl [~persizzl@unaffiliated/persizzl] has joined #lisp 01:47:13 whereis nyef?! 01:53:59 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:56:39 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQDakdp5WZ0 (-: 01:58:22 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:02:35 zacharias_ [~zacharias@unaffiliated/zacharias] has joined #lisp 02:03:05 -!- gleag [~gleag@71.175.broadband2.iol.cz] has quit [Quit: Odcházím] 02:03:08 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-185-168-200.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:03:16 -!- zacharias [~zacharias@unaffiliated/zacharias] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:03:27 drmeister 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reset by peer] 03:39:47 didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has joined #lisp 03:46:27 sbcl supposedly is very verbose with messages when compiling, but when I compile I get no messages at all? 03:46:29 is that normal? 03:46:44 how do I get it to give me some output? 03:52:00 put on some higher compilation settings, like (speed 3) 03:53:13 sellout- [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:58:47 Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 04:00:25 -!- joshe [~joshe@2001:470:e862::1:1] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:01:08 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-188-61.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 04:04:31 -!- k-stz [~user@HSI-KBW-095-208-250-059.hsi5.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:09:03 -!- DalekBaldwin1 [~Adium@75-142-59-12.static.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:09:16 DalekBaldwin [~Adium@75-142-59-12.static.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has joined #lisp 04:11:04 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[~oleo@xdsl-78-35-150-6.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 04:35:50 Bike: I still just get a list of all the top level forms as they are compiled 04:36:16 the documentation makes it sound like it prints out so much it gets annoying to the point they have added hooks to pare it down 04:37:23 check *slime-compilation* 04:38:09 I'm not doing it in slime, I'm doing it via command line 04:38:57 does anyone know how to fix the issue with the cursor in normal mode using evil being to the *left* of the closing parenthesis at the end of the line? 04:39:09 doing it in slime, I get: 0 compiler notes 04:39:10 right now I have to go into insert mode before I can eval properly 04:39:16 *in emacs 04:39:25 what is insert mode 04:39:33 are you using viper or something? 04:39:36 evil 04:40:10 I was a normal emacs user for a while, but my pinky couldn't take it 04:40:17 remap capslock 04:40:40 but this is probably a viper problem, it's a pretty obscure extension I believe 04:41:02 evil, not viper 04:41:05 oh 04:41:07 not familiar 04:41:12 but probably equally obscure 04:41:14 evil is pretty populer I think 04:41:16 *ar 04:41:26 have you tried remapping capslock to ctrl? 04:41:33 that saved my hand 04:41:40 I haven't, I might give it a go at some point 04:41:53 emacs was created on machines where ctrl was where capslock is now 04:41:58 they weren't totally crazy :) 04:42:02 :P 04:42:55 my model M broke and I replaced it with something that takes less force to press the keys, so maybe it's time I give emacs another shot without trying to turn it into vim 04:43:14 ltbarcly_: what are you compiling? it might just be that sbcl doesn't have anything to tell you for that particular function. 04:45:31 Bike: hmm, maybe. It's a lot of pretty ugly generated code, I was hoping it would give me some optimization hints 04:46:41 didi` [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has joined #lisp 04:46:51 -!- didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:47:59 most of the things that get notes are e.g. arithmetic on numbers (rather than fixnums or floats or whatever) 04:48:14 ahh 04:48:38 I just read today that specializers on CLOS slots are not used by the type inferencer 04:48:56 they can be redefined. i don't know exactly, though. 04:49:29 it seems like clos is a little to powerful, for example, if they weren't even comfortable using it for builtins 04:49:48 they built something that they themselves had to not use it seems 04:50:43 also, redefining slot specializers on classes seems inherently evil 04:51:01 clos postdates a lot of the rest of the spec 04:51:08 ahh, I see 04:51:17 oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-166-148.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 04:54:50 alezost [~user@128-70-201-90.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 05:02:54 diadara [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has joined #lisp 05:04:06 -!- knob3212 [~knob@66-50-3-27.prtc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 05:04:47 knob3212 [~knob@66-50-3-27.prtc.net] has joined #lisp 05:15:39 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:15:42 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-188-61.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 05:17:18 diadara_ [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has joined #lisp 05:17:28 -!- diadara [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 05:17:29 maxter [~maxter@gaffeless.chaperon.volia.net] has joined #lisp 05:18:42 -!- ndrei [~avo@83.142.149.227] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 05:20:01 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:30:13 -!- fortitude [~user@cpe-72-224-175-150.maine.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:31:22 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.222.26] has joined #lisp 05:34:46 -!- breakds [~breakds@c-24-0-146-43.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 05:35:18 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-188-61.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 05:36:34 solvery [~solvery@112.94.221.246] has joined #lisp 05:38:31 -!- knob3212 [~knob@66-50-3-27.prtc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:38:58 knob3212 [~knob@66-50-3-27.prtc.net] has joined #lisp 05:41:37 -!- edgar-rft [~GOD@HSI-KBW-078-043-120-047.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:42:31 lyanchih [~lyanchih@114-34-99-241.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 05:42:35 edgar-rft [~GOD@HSI-KBW-078-043-120-047.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 05:44:17 -!- lyanchih [~lyanchih@114-34-99-241.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Client Quit] 05:44:44 -!- diadara_ [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:44:54 diadara_ [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has joined #lisp 05:45:02 lyanchih [~lyanchih@114-34-99-241.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 05:45:36 -!- lyanchih [~lyanchih@114-34-99-241.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:45:46 -!- MrWoohoo [~MrWoohoo@pool-108-38-175-139.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]] 05:45:56 lyanchih [~lyanchih@114-34-99-241.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 05:47:01 -!- solvery [~solvery@112.94.221.246] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi] 05:50:54 ltbarcly__ [~jvanwink@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:51:33 -!- ltbarcly_ [~jvanwink@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 05:51:49 -!- karswell` [~user@87.112.183.62] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:53:07 -!- didi` [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:53:54 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 05:54:16 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.222.26] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:03:31 mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has joined #lisp 06:03:31 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has quit [Changing host] 06:03:31 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 06:05:57 karswell [~user@87.112.183.62] has joined #lisp 06:06:37 -!- diadara_ [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:07:08 diadara_ [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has joined #lisp 06:08:55 -!- diadara_ [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:23:10 doomlord__ [~doomlod@host86-180-26-144.range86-180.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 06:24:38 en.windows7sins.org 06:28:03 sausages [~sausages@balmora.robotjunkyard.org] has joined #lisp 06:29:30 -!- lyanchih [~lyanchih@114-34-99-241.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Quit: lyanchih] 06:31:42 -!- tiksa [~tiksa@178-223-39-18.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:31:50 diadara [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has joined #lisp 06:40:06 angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has joined #lisp 06:44:25 -!- danielszmulewicz [~danielszm@185.3.146.143] has quit [Quit: danielszmulewicz] 06:53:39 eldariof [~CLD@pppoe-196-161-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has joined #lisp 07:01:11 nipra [~nipra@122.177.41.214] has joined #lisp 07:05:13 jewel [~jewel@105.236.146.135] has joined #lisp 07:06:44 -!- nipra [~nipra@122.177.41.214] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:13:26 are there any numbers on when it makes more sense to use a hash map than a plist? 07:16:18 depends on implementation and other things, like the test, and your particular requirements, probably 07:17:57 isaacbw: plist access is O(N) right? 07:19:03 it is 07:22:11 it would be easy to check, but in Python the breakeven point is about 3, meaning once you have more than 3 a dictionary is faster than a linear search 07:22:51 I would expect lisp to have a breakeven between 2 and 20, although it largely would depend on how expensive the equality operatoin is 07:23:10 a hash table will be faster at a lower size for expensive equality tests 07:23:50 since it only has to check entries that hash the same 07:24:01 or at least hash to the same bucket 07:24:38 for super cheap equality tests, plists might stay faster for quite a large size 07:25:50 I'm writing a benchmark now, I am also curious 07:30:37 lyanchih [~lyanchih@114-34-99-241.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 07:31:26 -!- jewel [~jewel@105.236.146.135] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:31:47 kcj [~k@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 07:33:27 -!- Vivitron [~Vivitron@c-50-172-44-193.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:37:52 [6502] [5e24e759@gateway/web/freenode/ip.94.36.231.89] has joined #lisp 07:40:18 DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@101.171.186.205] has joined #lisp 07:40:24 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-180-111.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 07:42:35 <[6502]> Ok... what about this crazy idea: scheme-like evaluation rules (first position is not special) EXCEPT that a symbol in first position is considered like having "fn_" prepended to it. Just one namespace for functions and variables, no need for (function ...) or (funcall ...). If you need to call a non-fn variable just wrap it with ((progn x) ....) . 07:42:38 Guest17183 [~user@117.39.24.216] has joined #lisp 07:43:13 ugly. 07:43:33 Bike: ok, this is a pain to test due to eq use in plist. It seems that uninterned symbols aren't eq even if they are string-wise the same 07:43:52 however, there is no promise that for example (eq 1 1) 07:43:59 ltbarcly__: that's correct. 07:44:12 so plists are almost always used with interned symbols as keys? 07:44:20 usually. 07:44:40 it seems like it would be hard to manage to make it slower than a hash-table in that case 07:45:05 unless you are programatically generating interned symbols 07:45:55 with my lack of experience I can only imagine that happening in like a computer algebra system or something, I mean it probably isn't a common thing? or is it? 07:46:49 plists aren't really used for large datasets. 07:47:02 I suspect that interning a huge number interned of symbols would be kindof expensive in a lot of ways anyway 07:47:16 the main use of plists is just keyword args. 07:47:22 ericmathison [~ericmathi@172-15-249-133.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 07:47:24 Bike: how could you? you would have to go out of your way to create that many symbols 07:47:44 and at that point I suspect most people will stop and think about what they are doing 07:48:03 you /can/ use other eq-comparable objects 07:48:09 but, yeah, you're right. 07:48:15 I was thinking of using plists to help generate good tracebacks for my compiler 07:48:23 howso? 07:48:47 I need some way to encode in the CL that I generate where that code was generated from in my source language 07:48:50 <[6502]> ltbarcly__: why having a lot of interned symbols should be slow? 07:49:04 oh, source locations 07:49:24 [6502]: I'm a newb, but I think it has to allocate space for every interned symbol, for it's various cells 07:49:39 and then it would have to walk all that crap when it did a GC 07:49:55 but that's heavily bullshit-based and also would be implementation dependent regardless 07:50:39 Bike: it doesn't quite work though, just because where a symbol was created doesn't help much to figure out what happened 07:50:54 yeah, just attach an informative struct to functions or so 07:51:34 right, at least then I could take a sbcl stack and get close to where it happened in the source language 07:52:45 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.222.26] has joined #lisp 07:53:07 it would be handy for sbcl as well, at least for me those stack traces, or whatever they are called, are very inscrutable still 07:53:49 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@101.171.186.205] has quit [Quit: Disconnecting -- bye] 07:54:01 partly because there is so much stuff that is not in the code I write in the stack traces, which is understandable, but my eyes haven't learned how to jump over it yet 07:55:18 I could also set up a debug-mode where actual line numbers are attached to functions before they are called, and then popped off after they return 07:55:36 it's too expensive to do all the time, but then you could get very accurate code locations 07:56:16 why would you do that, the line numbers should be lexically apparent? 07:58:42 hiroakip [~hiroaki@p54A6ABBD.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 07:59:24 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.222.26] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:59:51 Bike: like I said, it takes me 10 seconds or so to orient myself when looking at one, and usually in a stack of 20 or so entries, my actual code is about half way down the stack, so I have to look down the entire stack and try to recognize the code that I wrote, and that's not always trivial 08:00:07 Bike: oh, what I said was that I'm still slow at it 08:00:26 francis_wolke [62cf9ba1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.98.207.155.161] has joined #lisp 08:00:46 the stack traces could stand a bit of formatting, dumping raw lists is pretty hard to parse quickly 08:00:46 i meant in response to "I could also set up a debug-mode ..." 08:01:23 oh, if foo calls bar in several different ways, it might not be clear which way is causing a problem 08:01:37 if you know what functions were in the call stack anyway you could look up their lexical information in a database only when you need to print a trace 08:01:43 oh, did you mean the call sites, ok. 08:01:44 and if I just tag functions, all I would see is FOO > BAR > error 08:01:48 ahh, right 08:02:45 -!- francis_wolke [62cf9ba1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.98.207.155.161] has quit [Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client] 08:07:18 -!- bege [~bege@S0106001d7e5132b0.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:08:05 bege [~bege@S0106001d7e5132b0.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 08:10:41 -!- theos is now known as Guest48817 08:11:09 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 08:12:46 -!- andreh [~andreh@177.133.52.29.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 08:13:50 Shinmera [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 08:14:54 -!- Guest48817 [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:15:27 -!- hiroakip [~hiroaki@p54A6ABBD.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:16:29 -!- joachifm [~joachifm@ulrik.uio.no] has quit [Disconnected by services] 08:17:42 -!- knob3212 [~knob@66-50-3-27.prtc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 08:17:42 andreh [~andreh@177.133.52.29.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has joined #lisp 08:18:09 knob3212 [~knob@66-50-3-27.prtc.net] has joined #lisp 08:20:32 -!- holycow [~holycow@host-216-251-135-194.bchsia.skywaywest.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 08:24:31 -!- lyanchih [~lyanchih@114-34-99-241.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Quit: lyanchih] 08:25:54 ok, whoever decided that plists and hash-tables should have different key-value ordering was a dick. I can learn to love a lot of the things I've complained about, but this one thing is hurtful 08:28:37 for the record, plist has the 'right' ordering, because you are more likely to write an expression to come up with a key then you are to have a bunch of hash tables you are checking for a known key, and it's grosser to put (gethash (SOME BIG EXPRESSION) key) than the other way around 08:30:11 zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has joined #lisp 08:38:05 -!- bege [~bege@S0106001d7e5132b0.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 241 seconds] 08:42:59 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-180-111.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:45:27 -!- hiyosi [~skip_it@247.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.1] 08:45:44 hiyosi [~skip_it@247.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has joined #lisp 08:45:50 bege [~bege@S0106001d7e5132b0.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 08:46:27 Okasu [~1@unaffiliated/okasu] has joined #lisp 08:47:35 isaacbw: the answer for sbcl on amd64 (and all other necessary caveats) is that hash-tables win consistently for more than 8 entries 08:48:27 isaacbw: http://paste.lisp.org/display/138710 08:48:58 whoops 08:49:20 scratch that, fixing something 08:49:34 -!- [6502] [5e24e759@gateway/web/freenode/ip.94.36.231.89] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 08:50:06 -!- bege [~bege@S0106001d7e5132b0.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:50:51 Munksgaard [~philip@80-71-132-106.u.parknet.dk] has joined #lisp 08:51:30 Bike: is it possible plists in sbcl are implemented with hash-tables? 08:52:03 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@62-165-243-178.pool.digikabel.hu] has joined #lisp 08:52:04 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@62-165-243-178.pool.digikabel.hu] has quit [Changing host] 08:52:04 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 08:52:06 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Client Quit] 08:52:39 -!- hiyosi [~skip_it@247.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.1] 08:52:48 oh, nm again 08:53:18 hiyosi [~skip_it@247.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has joined #lisp 08:53:20 bege [~bege@S0106001d7e5132b0.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 08:55:32 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-180-111.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 08:56:16 Anyone used commonqt? And if yes how did it go for you? 08:56:16 -!- Teratogen [leontopod@unaffiliated/teratogen] has quit [Quit: I always have coffee when I watch radar!] 08:58:02 -!- bege [~bege@S0106001d7e5132b0.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 08:59:29 bege [~bege@S0106001d7e5132b0.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 08:59:44 przl [~przlrkt@p5B29804E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 09:05:15 statl [~statl@dslb-094-218-231-014.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 09:06:30 ok, hash wins consistently at around 17 entries 09:07:30 here is the fixed code: http://paste.lisp.org/display/138711 09:08:29 it looks like there is a bit of linearness to hash table performance at first, not sure why that is 09:08:46 probably resizing? 09:13:10 oh, again I did something stupid 09:16:01 ok, the final answer is that if you are accessing random keys, hash-table in sbcl is as fast as plist for any number of entries 09:16:14 starting with 1 09:17:13 and hash-table starts running away with it after 20 or so 09:18:14 and this is true whether or not you include hash-table or plist creation in the timing or not 09:27:50 bulibuta [~bulibuta@irofti.net] has joined #lisp 09:28:55 surrounder_ [~surrounde@095-096-032-026.static.chello.nl] has joined #lisp 09:29:00 -!- surrounder [~surrounde@095-096-032-026.static.chello.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:31:09 arnsa [~arnsa@78-63-18-208.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 09:36:18 pranavrc [~pranavrc@122.164.70.165] has joined #lisp 09:36:20 -!- pranavrc [~pranavrc@122.164.70.165] has quit [Changing host] 09:36:20 pranavrc [~pranavrc@unaffiliated/pranavrc] has joined #lisp 09:39:25 -!- Guest17183 [~user@117.39.24.216] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:48:25 _5kg [~zifeitong@60.191.2.238] has joined #lisp 09:50:21 -!- nug700_ [~nug700@174-26-130-178.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: bye] 09:51:29 nipra [~nipra@122.177.145.105] has joined #lisp 09:55:30 dtw [~dtw@pdpc/supporter/active/dtw] has joined #lisp 09:57:11 Karl_dscc [~localhost@p5B2B0695.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 09:57:27 -!- Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 10:00:08 hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@176.62.116.16] has joined #lisp 10:00:13 -!- eldariof [~CLD@pppoe-196-161-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:01:48 -!- _5kg [~zifeitong@60.191.2.238] has left #lisp 10:01:57 SrPx [~SrPx@177.133.101.131.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has joined #lisp 10:02:07 -!- statl [~statl@dslb-094-218-231-014.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 10:03:52 eldariof [~CLD@pppoe-196-161-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has joined #lisp 10:05:43 -!- SrPx [~SrPx@177.133.101.131.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has quit [Client Quit] 10:08:05 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-180-111.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 10:08:23 -!- knob3212 [~knob@66-50-3-27.prtc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:08:49 knob3212 [~knob@66-50-3-27.prtc.net] has joined #lisp 10:09:00 nilsi [~nilsi@183.245.65.242] has joined #lisp 10:10:04 SrPx [~SrPx@177.133.101.131.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has joined #lisp 10:10:37 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 10:15:06 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 10:19:03 stepnem [~stepnem@internet2.cznet.cz] has joined #lisp 10:20:58 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 10:23:16 -!- diadara [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:25:39 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:27:05 bioevolgenec [~dgkontopo@unaffiliated/bioevolgenec] has joined #lisp 10:29:38 I am writing a lambda function and need to ignore two variables via (declare (ignorable X)). How can I ignore both of them? I've tried two declare statements, but none of the variables gets ignored. 10:33:05 ignorable and ignore accept any number of arguments/variables. 10:34:43 -!- Munksgaard [~philip@80-71-132-106.u.parknet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:34:53 ehu [~ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 10:34:57 Shinmera, indeed they do. 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Good to know. 14:06:58 Does anyone know where you set the inferior lisp to run with emacs M-x run-lisp? I set it a long time ago and for the life of me I can't find it. 14:10:47 drmeister: inferior-lisp-program (you can see that with C-h f run-lisp RET) 14:13:42 Thank you. I was using C-h a run-lisp RET 14:14:03 what is a nop in lisp ? 14:15:40 () 14:15:42 ? 14:15:54 oleo: what do you want to achieve? 14:16:09 -!- DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:17:13 fridim_ [~fridim@bas2-montreal07-2925317871.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 14:17:18 i'm getting menu font corruption on calling (climacs::climacs-listener) and (climacs::climacs-rv) sucessively 14:17:27 in the same env 14:18:02 oleo: and that makes you want a "nop" how? 14:18:08 when i dissect them into distinct funcs i get rid of the menu font corruption 14:18:46 dunno, i thought maybe it's a timing issue...... 14:19:13 DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has joined #lisp 14:19:27 so i should call a nop in between the calls or so.... 14:20:11 oleo: you can call cl:sleep 14:20:20 ah ok 14:20:29 sleep 1 or so maybe then.... 14:20:55 will try thank you 14:25:44 -!- hugod [~user@bas1-montreal08-1279346953.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:25:47 [6502] [5e24e759@gateway/web/freenode/ip.94.36.231.89] has joined #lisp 14:26:44 wchun [~wchun@81-232-46-25-no38.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 14:27:05 whoa 14:27:07 indeed 14:27:18 this time no corruption, will try a few times now 14:28:36 hugod [~user@bas1-montreal08-1279346953.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 14:28:49 -!- Kabaka_ [~Kabaka@botters/kabaka] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:29:37 antgreen [~green@out-pq-249.wireless.telus.com] has joined #lisp 14:29:50 <[6502]> True or false: if looking up a symbol from a specific code section i find it in a lexical environment (say 3 levels up from current "LET") then I'll always find it 3 levels up... 14:30:03 waahaha 14:30:07 ok it seems really work 14:30:50 -!- lusory [~lusory@42.60.25.228] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:32:12 is there a more fine-grained sleep in lisp ? 14:32:20 *[6502]* thinks this is sort of the definition of lexical :-D 14:32:22 or will sleep 0.1 work too ? 14:32:44 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:32:50 ah it's a real 14:32:51 ok 14:34:14 -!- hugod [~user@bas1-montreal08-1279346953.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:36:24 works works 14:37:14 <[6502]> oleo: not sure what you're talking about, but if the solution is adding a sleep of 0.1 then your definition of "works" is broken 14:37:34 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 14:38:02 ? 14:38:07 why's that ? 14:38:38 you mean it's a crude hack rather a real solution ? 14:39:52 -!- foreignFunction [~niksaak@ip-4761.sunline.net.ua] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:39:55 <[6502]> oleo: works doesn't mean "apparently sometimes seems to do what I expected it to do, not really sure why" 14:40:04 you maybe right, but i dunno howto fix it else.... 14:40:05 <[6502]> oleo: works with a sleep of 0.00001 ? 14:40:27 no 0.1 is totally ok here 14:40:57 i read it's approximate anyway..... 14:42:11 <[6502]> oleo: like i said i've no idea what you're talking about. but if the solution is adding a small arbitrary sleep I'm a bit suspicious this is going to work always 14:42:21 -!- Guest21370 [~user@117.39.24.216] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:42:29 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-180-111.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 14:42:45 -!- dfox [~dfox@94.142.237.120] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 14:42:58 it does.... 14:43:08 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:43:13 i restarted my env several times now 14:43:22 and no font corruption on the menus 14:43:35 hugod [~user@bas1-montreal08-1279346953.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 14:44:42 <[6502]> oleo: no... it APPARENTLY works now. It will fail horribly when this will cause most damage (e.g. when you're making a demo in front of the investors) :-D 14:44:47 but if you ask why the crude-hack works the way it works....no idea..... 14:45:08 <[6502]> oleo: probably the solution is not sleeping, but synchronizing with something 14:45:14 hmmmm 14:46:07 <[6502]> oleo: if now 0.099 is needed and with a sleep of 0.1 works, during that demo the operation will take 0.11 instead 14:46:43 Clearly the only proper solution is to sleep until the heat-death. 14:47:12 <[6502]> Shinmera: or forever (if that is different in a philosophical sense) 14:47:38 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:47:39 <[6502]> Shinmera: or just finding what is the event/status to wait for 14:47:56 That works too. 14:48:34 Kabaka_ [~Kabaka@botters/kabaka] has joined #lisp 14:50:59 maxter [~maxter@sundownness.lullaby.volia.net] has joined #lisp 14:53:32 ssqq [~perlvim@221.4.142.43] has joined #lisp 14:54:00 maxter_ [~maxter@gaffeless.chaperon.volia.net] has joined #lisp 14:54:24 lyanchih [~lyanchih@114-34-99-241.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 14:55:38 Why Function and Variable have different namespace, That is to say, One variable name, may be a function, also may be a ordinary variable 14:56:04 -!- maxter [~maxter@sundownness.lullaby.volia.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:56:42 ssqq: Why not? 14:56:44 <[6502]> ssqq: i think the main reason was originally for interpreter speed, but also works nicely for macros 14:56:47 -!- bulibuta [~bulibuta@irofti.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:58:51 <[6502]> ssqq: normally variables are local, and functions are instead global 14:59:03 zerowaitstate [~dwaites@adsl-75-23-43-147.dsl.lgvwtx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:00:21 As Function is first-class object, Then it should have same behavour with ordinary object. 15:00:27 ssqq: Why? 15:01:14 functions are first class, the syntax for calling them is just different from scheme 15:01:17 <[6502]> ssqq: they are first class objects and the behaviour is the same... they just have a separate namespace 15:02:32 there's a certain simplicity in the lisp-1 approach that I appreciate, but I find having a separate namespace for functions helps with the way I think about and name things 15:02:36 -!- statl [~statl@dslb-094-218-231-209.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 15:02:51 I want design a function with random position is function name, other is argument,may behind,or after the function name.I don't know how to design it 15:03:37 ssqq: if for some reason you want the function designator to not be the first position, you can do that with a macro 15:03:53 just like (arg1 argu2 function-name arg3 argu4) 15:04:46 well, it would work out like (with-strange-dialect (arg1 argu2 function-name arg3 arg4)) 15:04:49 If I want design large amount of function like this, how to do it? 15:05:23 <[6502]> ssqq: pattern matching at top level? that unfortunately isn't easy to add to common lisp, short of rewriting the full reader 15:05:29 lusory [~lusory@42.60.25.228] has joined #lisp 15:06:09 <[6502]> ssqq: you can do that with a (with-pattern-matching (...) ...) macro, but still not trivial (requires a full code walker) 15:06:25 -!- klltkr [~klltkr@unaffiliated/klltkr] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:06:31 Oh, I see, Thanks 15:06:40 how does having the function name at a random position help anything? 15:07:33 <[6502]> ssqq: writing a macro that transforms say (x -> (* x x)) into (lambda (x) (* x x)) is not something easy to do in common lisp 15:07:44 You could implement a reader macro that transforms it into an ordinary function call... but yeah, why would you want to? 15:08:18 I want do something, the verb is second word and third word, Many language includ human language have random function-name 15:08:29 -!- DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:09:09 translate the language into lojban, then the function is at the start 15:09:13 <[6502]> ssqq: what if also the first word is a verb ? do you want to apply all other words to it or do you want to apply it to the middle verb ? 15:10:21 -!- zerowaitstate [~dwaites@adsl-75-23-43-147.dsl.lgvwtx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:10:50 "I want do something", This string, second word is verb 15:11:08 <[6502]> ssqq: are you really trying to bring the confusion of human languages to programming? 15:11:26 john mccarthy wanted to make a more natural language like system called elephant, I don't know if anyone got very far along with those ideas though 15:11:28 -!- hoyang [~hoyang@60.168.87.40] has quit [Quit: ] 15:12:10 <[6502]> ssqq: "The dog of my syster, that liked to pee on the sofa, just died" 15:13:07 <[6502]> ssqq: "I threw a stone on the window and broke it" 15:13:16 <[6502]> ssqq: "I threw an egg on the wall and broke it" 15:13:55 When use lisp Interpreting other language just like ruby or Perl, a completely syntax unit may have random function-name. 15:14:02 bananagram [~bot@c-76-30-158-226.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:14:26 DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has joined #lisp 15:14:53 I don't want to change Lisp, I only want design a function could distinguish random function name. 15:15:08 <[6502]> ssqq: C++ indeed got very far in that direction. There are places in which the ambiguities are resolved with "If this can mean both this and that, then it's that" 15:16:24 Yes, I see. 15:16:54 <[6502]> ssqq: pattern matching is interesting, but like I said there's no easy way to integrate it with common lisp because the reader and the compiler are only customizable in certain ways 15:17:58 <[6502]> ssqq: if there was a way to intercept a list in code position right before it's being passed to the evaluator things would be different, but there's not such an hook 15:18:28 -!- andreh [~andreh@177.133.52.29.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 15:20:07 good name rule with variable and function-name? 15:20:43 But Lisp have too many function-name and build-in variable name 15:22:10 Do Lisp have any introspection function could know all symbol of current package? 15:24:10 clhs do-symbols 15:24:10 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_do_sym.htm 15:24:43 victor_lowther [~victor.lo@2602:306:3b84:aca0:897:df24:98ac:4d94] has joined #lisp 15:24:47 -!- maxter_ [~maxter@gaffeless.chaperon.volia.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 15:25:10 Thanks 6502 and dtw , specbot and spacebat 15:25:26 andreh [~andreh@177.133.52.29.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has joined #lisp 15:26:23 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p5B29804E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:27:44 mpstyler [~user@176.73.154.121] has joined #lisp 15:28:23 -!- ssqq [~perlvim@221.4.142.43] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:29:33 przl [~przlrkt@p5B29804E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 15:32:10 nipra1 [~nipra@122.177.186.25] has joined #lisp 15:32:54 -!- nipra [~nipra@122.177.201.216] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:34:18 -!- tiksa [~tiksa@109-92-206-138.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 15:35:16 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p5B29804E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 15:35:27 -!- hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@176.62.116.16] has quit [Quit: hitecnologys] 15:35:27 Vivitron [~Vivitron@c-50-172-44-193.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:36:28 -!- yrk [~user@pdpc/supporter/student/yrk] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:38:05 klltkr [~klltkr@unaffiliated/klltkr] has joined #lisp 15:44:55 hi! is there a way to get info about a function from the repl? 15:45:15 i'm using sbcl if that matters 15:45:20 puchacz [~puchacz@46-65-36-47.zone16.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 15:46:09 -!- puchacz [~puchacz@46-65-36-47.zone16.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Client Quit] 15:46:40 -!- yano [yano@freenode/staff/yano] has quit [Ping timeout: 624 seconds] 15:46:54 ReaL [~Arttt@122-9-203-46.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 15:47:15 I've tried (documentation 'first) but it gives me an error, so I'm not sure if that's available or I did something wrong :S 15:47:34 (documentation 'first 'function) 15:47:52 clhs documentation 15:47:52 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_docume.htm 15:48:47 Bike: thanks! that worked 15:50:38 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@62-165-243-178.pool.digikabel.hu] has joined #lisp 15:50:38 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@62-165-243-178.pool.digikabel.hu] has quit [Changing host] 15:50:38 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 15:52:37 nostoi [~nostoi@146.Red-80-39-157.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 16:01:14 -!- lyanchih [~lyanchih@114-34-99-241.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Quit: lyanchih] 16:01:23 przl [~przlrkt@p5B29804E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 16:04:23 -!- p_l_ is now known as p_l 16:04:23 -!- nostoi [~nostoi@146.Red-80-39-157.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 16:05:35 Munksgaard [~philip@80-71-132-106.u.parknet.dk] has joined #lisp 16:09:22 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-185-168-200.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:10:06 -!- ReaL [~Arttt@122-9-203-46.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Quit:     (xchat 2.4.5  )] 16:10:59 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-185-168-200.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:12:41 -!- quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-98-217.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 16:12:56 statl [~statl@dslb-094-218-006-012.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 16:13:05 sabra: even that last version I pastied had an ugly bug 16:13:17 dr_diamond [~NGQ@unaffiliated/dr-diamond/x-6130392] has joined #lisp 16:15:43 -!- nilsi [~nilsi@183.245.65.242] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:18:48 hash-table in sbcl is very close to the same performance as plist even with tiny list sizes of 1, even if you include the time to create the hash-table and put the values in it (and also with the plist) 16:19:38 especially if you give hash-table a reasonable :size before filling it 16:20:44 ltbarcly__: if that was the case, that would be awful> 16:21:36 Actually, last time I checked, (a few years ago), hashtable vs. plist were faster in sbcl with as few as 4 or 5 elements (as few as 35 elements in clisp). 16:21:56 dfox [~dfox@94.142.237.120] has joined #lisp 16:22:24 -!- surrounder_ [~surrounde@095-096-032-026.static.chello.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:22:28 When I write faster, I mean Ch*O(1) vs. Cl*O(n) 16:22:57 surrounder [~surrounde@095-096-032-026.static.chello.nl] has joined #lisp 16:23:15 bgs100 [~nitrogen@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 16:23:25 yrk [~user@c-50-133-134-220.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:23:38 -!- yrk [~user@c-50-133-134-220.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 16:23:38 yrk [~user@pdpc/supporter/student/yrk] has joined #lisp 16:23:53 The interesting thing however is that plists are faster for a small number of elements, with small being as high as 35 with some implementations! :-) 16:24:44 is anyone running a PPA with newer SBCLs by any chance? 16:24:45 willyfrog: (describe 'first) will give a little more info as well 16:25:06 yano [yano@freenode/staff/yano] has joined #lisp 16:26:46 willyfrog: you almost certainly want to run SLIME, which has that and much more covered. C-c C-d C-d in SLIME REPL will give you a symbol's documentation it can find 16:27:00 -!- yrk [~user@pdpc/supporter/student/yrk] has quit [Write error: Connection reset by peer] 16:27:16 M-. on things will take you to their definition (and M-, will go back) 16:27:31 yrk [~user@c-50-133-134-220.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:27:46 -!- yrk [~user@c-50-133-134-220.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 16:27:46 yrk [~user@pdpc/supporter/student/yrk] has joined #lisp 16:28:04 willyfrog: http://common-lisp.net/project/movies/movies/slime.mov 16:28:59 get it via Quicklisp SLIME helper: http://www.quicklisp.org/beta/  (ql:quickload "quicklisp-slime-helper") 16:30:30 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-185-168-200.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:31:44 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-185-168-200.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:32:12 Here's why - I'm adding about 400 C++ classes to Common Lisp as types and I'd like to use many of them as argument selectors for DEFMETHOD - I'm trying to understand the criteria people used in the past to decide what is a CLASS and what is a TYPE. 16:32:24 Sorry I dropped off there for a bit - lousy wireless connection. 16:32:49 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.238] has joined #lisp 16:33:02 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p5B29804E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:34:18 -!- benny [~user@maidenhead3.tunnelr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:34:21 I'm not sure the original question made it through - I'll paste it back in. 16:34:28 Why is INTEGER a system class while FIXNUM and BIGNUM are just types. I can use INTEGER as an argument selector for DEFMETHOD but not FIXNUM. Does anyone know the rational behind this? 16:35:51 eskatrem [~user@81.60.148.124.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 16:36:22 benny [~user@maidenhead3.tunnelr.com] has joined #lisp 16:36:23 -!- oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-166-148.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:37:20 drmeister: that's because BIGNUM is merely a hint for you and doesn't need to exist 16:37:38 oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-132-113.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:37:47 pnpuff [~l@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 16:37:59 it's a specific subtype of INTEGER which tells you "these things will likely be fast" (if you stay within FIXNUM) or "these things will likely be slow" (BIGNUM) 16:38:29 -!- pnpuff [~l@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has left #lisp 16:38:42 but no implementation is required to distinguish between them, and there's no formal criterion that separates them 16:38:59 <|3b|> why would you pick that particular subset of INTEGER to be a class rather than unsigned-byte or whatever? 16:39:41 detected double free in freetype lol 16:40:09 drmeister: a more general corollary of all that is that types need not, in general, be dispatchable 16:40:13 ikki [~ikki@187.208.148.93] has joined #lisp 16:40:26 the only thing you can do with a type is ask "is X of this type?" 16:40:41 but you cannot go the other way around and ask "what types does X have" for arbitrary types 16:41:17 MrWoohoo [~MrWoohoo@pool-108-38-175-139.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:41:38 przl [~przlrkt@p5B29804E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 16:41:47 pjb: I see plist as faster, but not by enough to matter, up to a handful of elements. Did you include the creation of the hashtable/plist in your timings? 16:41:48 <|3b|> all values are of the type containing exactly that value :p 16:41:55 |3b|: Is there a reason why they (FIXNUM,BIGNUM,SIGNED-BYTE,UNSIGNED-BYTE,BIT) couldn't all be classes - other than the CL standard says that they are not? 16:42:20 <|3b|> drmeister: so if you dispatch on 1 when all those have methods, which gets called? 16:42:25 drmeister: I just explained that 16:42:30 -!- ndrei [~avo@83.142.149.227] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:42:52 <|3b|> note that you can't have a subtype relationship containing signed-byte and unsigned-byte 16:43:07 pjb: it also depends on what items you check, I'm picking 10 random ones from the domain of possible values 16:43:30 LiamH [~none@96.231.222.26] has joined #lisp 16:43:32 if I steer it toward earlier ones, hash-table overtakes sooner obviously 16:43:38 ltbarcly__: Indeed, I didn't include creation, but it's a constant time should it will only increase the minimum number of elements for which plists are faster. 16:43:50 mathrick: Where? "a more general corollary of all that is that types need not, in general, be dispatchable" or "the only thing you can do with a type is ask "is X of this type?"" 16:43:52 for which hashtables are faster 16:44:20 ndrei [~avo@83.142.149.227] has joined #lisp 16:44:20 slyrus [~chatzilla@107.201.4.22] has joined #lisp 16:44:23 ltbarcly__: but indeed, for a small number of elements, plists are faster. This is often lost on non lisp programmers (and a few lisp programmers too). 16:44:26 _d3f [~gnu@79.172.193.111] has joined #lisp 16:44:49 drmeister: yes. Types might form an arbitrarily complex structure with no ordering. Which means you can't dispatch on them because specificity is undecidable 16:45:06 Even with complex tests, such as string=, sxhash can slow hash table down quite a bit. 16:45:34 mathrick: So the decision on whether a type is promoted to a class is "do I want to dispatch on this". 16:45:41 pjb: ltbarcly__: Just out of curiosity, how does performance look for iterating over lists or hash-tables? 16:46:49 Shinmera: plists specifically? 16:46:54 drmeister: yes, and "can I create a useful hierarchy out of it?". You can have types like ODD based on ODDP if you want; the only thing required for a type is a predicate answering TYPEP for it 16:47:14 SrPx [~SrPx@177.133.101.131.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has joined #lisp 16:47:35 ltbarcly__: Plists or alists, I was just wondering how they compare against hash-table iteration 16:47:40 pjb: but still a constant time, and plist has to do N complex comparisons vs a hash table doing 1 hash and one comparison 16:47:56 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p5B29804E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:48:34 ltbarcly__: I would guess that they're faster for iteration, but slower for random access, given enough items. (Which is what you found, if I follow this correctly?) 16:48:45 drmeister: classes in CLOS are nominal, ie. objects are of a class mainly by declaration, and a lot of classes will only have name and no slots, because they only exist to guide dispatch. Types are, generally speaking, structural because belonging to a type is based on whether you pass the test for that type 16:48:54 I have this C++ class hierarchy that contains 430 classes for building molecules. I've incorporated then into my Common Lisp environment as built-in types. I guess I have to go through them on a case-by-case basis and decide if I want to dispatch on them and promote them to CLOS classes and promote all of their base C++ classes/CL-types to CLOS classes as well. 16:49:24 how have you modelled them? 16:49:39 mathrick: What do you mean by "how have you modelled them"? 16:49:48 what are they now, if not classes? 16:49:55 C++ classes. 16:50:12 then how did you incorporate them into your CL environment? 16:50:13 hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@176.62.116.16] has joined #lisp 16:50:14 Shinmera: in theory, assuming I understand correctly, iteration speed should be something like this, in order from lowest runtime to highest: (array specialized on type that is immediate) < (array non immediate type) < (list) < (hash-table) 16:50:18 however, there are so many factors here 16:50:20 mathrick: I've written a new Common Lisp compiler/environment that interfaces with C++. 16:50:34 a nearly full hash-table should be faster than a list 16:50:49 drmeister: ok, and what are they visible as to CL code? 16:50:56 also, do you have a link for that compiler? 16:51:15 but then a list created over a long period of time might have pointers all over the place in memory, and on an SMP system that could be pretty bad for performance? 16:51:25 |3b|: related, has your actionscript CL implementation ever get finished? 16:51:39 mathrick: Are you familiar with ECL "Embedded Common Lisp"? 16:51:44 yesw 16:52:04 -!- _d3f [~gnu@79.172.193.111] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.1] 16:52:57 przl [~przlrkt@p5B29804E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 16:53:00 Plus, if you are using a plist in something like a LRU pattern, where you access recently added keys far more often than other keys, plists might be faster regardless of size 16:53:02 Ok - I wrote a new C++ core that hosts the ECL code. Where ECL defines Common Lisp types as C-structs I use C++ classes and they mirror the inheritance hierarchy of CL including multiple-inheritance for VECTOR 16:54:37 _d3f [~gnu@nl1.ovpn.to] has joined #lisp 16:54:55 So when a C++ class is hooked into the CL environment it has a BUILT-IN-CLASS instance defined for it with CLASS-DIRECT-SUPERCLASSES defined but all the other BUILT-IN-CLASS slots are UNBOUND. 16:55:25 You can't do anything other than query it's BUILT-IN-CLASS instance at that point. 16:55:26 drmeister: so that makes them classes already, no? 16:55:57 I don't see why you'd say about "promoting" them to CL classes 16:56:03 they already are that 16:56:22 Not quite - I'm working on that now. I'm have to call CLOS::MAKE-EMPTY-STANDARD-CLASS and then CLOS::FINALIZE-INHERITANCE on each of these BUILT-IN-CLASS instances and then they are classes and I can dispatch on them using DEFMETHOD. 16:56:48 adding and removing from a plist are cheap enough that you might see speed up by getting the value with remprop and immediately re-adding it back 16:57:00 whenever you want a value 16:57:11 assuming you have a usage pattern with hot-spots 16:57:59 In the ECL CLOS boostrapping code - this is class promotion is performed for the standard CL types. 16:58:02 but then consing 16:58:12 drmeister: if they are classes in C++, then make them CLOS classes. You pretty much already have a design consideration to guide you there. Unless you plan to rewrite it completely in CL and throw out the old C++ code, you will need to interface with it, and that makes the question of "type vs. class" meaningless 16:58:19 note also that classes *are* types 16:58:31 I guess you could do it destructively 16:59:44 drmeiste_ [~drmeister@pool-71-185-168-200.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:59:46 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-185-168-200.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:00:05 Houl [~Parmi@unaffiliated/houl] has joined #lisp 17:00:24 Sorry - I dropped off again - I moved closer to the router. 17:00:30 -!- drmeiste_ is now known as drmeister 17:01:13 recycle [~recycle@cpe-76-88-36-147.san.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:02:25 mathrick: And no - it's not available yet - I'm going to get Garbage Collection working and then I'll open-source it. 17:02:36 ok 17:02:51 -!- recycle [~recycle@cpe-76-88-36-147.san.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:03:55 drmeister: so basically, I think you just got confused by the standard making types which aren't classes available, but they don't really matter in any way to you. You have your hierarchy laid out for you, and the only time where you could usefully change it is when you're redesigning and rewriting the code in CL and CL only 17:06:36 -!- surrounder [~surrounde@095-096-032-026.static.chello.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:07:15 -!- nipra1 [~nipra@122.177.186.25] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:07:18 -!- _d3f [~gnu@nl1.ovpn.to] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:07:27 surrounder [~surrounde@095-096-032-026.static.chello.nl] has joined #lisp 17:08:33 On that - so I boot up my CL environment - for every C++ class that is exposed to CL a BUILT-IN-CLASS instance is created with its DIRECT-SUPERCLASSES slot filled with the names of its C++ base classes and that's it. 17:09:24 maxter [~maxter@gaffeless.chaperon.volia.net] has joined #lisp 17:09:30 Then the ECL Common Lisp code is evaluated - when CLOS initializes it finds the BUILT-IN-CLASS instances for all of the CL types that should be promoted to CLOS classes and promotes them. 17:09:35 nipra [~nipra@122.177.186.25] has joined #lisp 17:09:59 -!- nipra [~nipra@122.177.186.25] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:10:05 nipra1 [~nipra@122.177.186.25] has joined #lisp 17:10:41 drmeister: I'm unsure what you mean by that. Are you saying that before you "promote" them, you have objects of class BUILT-IN-CLASS that nevertheless aren't registered with the type system? 17:10:59 and if so, why'd you ever not want to have all of them promoted? 17:11:02 Then I collect together all of the BUILT-IN-CLASS instances that were not promoted - this includes SYS::FIXNUM and SYS:BIGNUM - I need to ignore those. 17:11:14 drmeister: now, CL allows BUILT-IN-CLASS to be different from STANDARD-CLASS, but it's not really mandatory. (Perhaps it is for some semantic aspect of numbers). 17:11:28 drmeister: the point is that you could as well make your C++ classes standard-class from the start. 17:11:30 BitPuffin [~BitPuffin@c83-254-19-137.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 17:11:34 yeah 17:11:41 well 17:11:54 pjb: My implementation has BUILT-IN-CLASS being different from STANDARD-CLASS. 17:12:03 That is, IF you need them to be standard classes. 17:12:03 pjb: usually if you have foreign types, having a useful metaclass other than STANDARD-CLASS is handy 17:12:18 True. 17:12:30 -!- chu [~user@unaffiliated/chu] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:12:42 <|3b|> mathrick: mostly abandoned at this point, since adobe stopped supporting the targets i cared about (linux and mobile) 17:12:58 |3b|: mhm, I can see that. Bastards 17:12:59 drmeister: Do you need any kind of introspection of your C++ class from CL? Do you need to create CL subclasses? 17:13:01 quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-98-217.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 17:13:45 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:14:14 <|3b|> mathrick: also, js covers a lot of the things that were nice about flash these days 17:14:40 -!- zbigniew [~zb@3e8.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:14:44 Xach: you were the last person I know to have interacted with pkhung; any idea where he might be back? 17:14:45 pjb: I don't think I can support subclassing C++ classes from CL at the moment - if that's what you are asking. 17:15:01 matko [~matko@ip82-139-74-40.lijbrandt.net] has joined #lisp 17:15:07 it's more of "do you want to?" 17:15:14 pjb: Actually, I'm certain that I cannot support subclassing C++ classes from CL at the moment. 17:15:57 Right- I'm not sure I want to. It would be like subclassing FIXNUM or CONS - I can do it in C++ but not CL. 17:16:35 Aramur [~arare@135.Red-79-148-14.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 17:16:55 Well yes it would be difficult. Either you'd have to hack vtables (compiler dependant), or you'd have to define a subclass stub of each of your C++ class. 17:17:22 So considering you won't subclass from CL C++ classes, keeping them as built-in-classes sounds good enough. 17:17:30 -!- victor_lowther [~victor.lo@2602:306:3b84:aca0:897:df24:98ac:4d94] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:17:41 I don't think you'll gain anything in making them standard-classes. 17:17:43 pjb: Yes. I'm not going to do anything that is compiler dependent - the purpose here is to stay C++ compiler agnostic. 17:18:00 Notice that you can still define lisp methods dispatching on them built-in-classes. 17:18:19 -!- BitPuffin [~BitPuffin@c83-254-19-137.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.1] 17:19:22 And if you need to "subclass" in CL, you can always wrap them in a standard class. like: (defclass subclassable-integer () ((value :type integer :initarg :value :reader integer-value))) 17:19:23 pjb: I'm sure some template hacking and a few man-decades to weed out issues would work just fine for generating the stubs :) 17:19:37 Right, templates 17:19:41 I always forget them. 17:19:44 pjb: Right - defining lisp methods that dispatch on the built-in-classes is what I'm wrestling with. It looks like the answer is: "promote all exposed C++ classes as CLOS-classes that are not in the package :SYS". 17:19:48 pjb: which is a good thing 17:19:49 k0001 [~k0001@host241.190-226-194.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 17:19:57 it was a joke, you do NOT want to use templates 17:19:58 drmeister: nope, there's no need. 17:20:07 trying the synchro thing.... 17:20:11 drmeister: you should be able to define a method on them as built-in-classes. 17:20:28 really, it'd be easier to use whatever that C++ FFI thing someone wrote was to just churn out the code to define stubs 17:20:48 (defmethod succ ((self integer)) (1+ self)) (defmethod succ ((self character)) (code-char (1+ (char-code self)))) works nicely. 17:21:12 drmeister: that's what had me confused, you're doing something I don't understand that just isn't and shouldn't be needed 17:21:28 built-in-classes are classes; how can you promote them to classes? 17:21:40 (class-of (find-class 'integer)) --> # 17:22:15 -!- maxter [~maxter@gaffeless.chaperon.volia.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 17:22:37 mathrick: What I should be saying is "complete the processes of initializing the BUILT-IN-CLASS instances". 17:23:09 drmeister: well yes, but why wouldn't you be doing that on all types? How are your classes different from :SYS? 17:23:33 _d3f [~gnu@46.183.216.234] has joined #lisp 17:24:15 ltbarcly__: Ah, right. Thanks, gave me some food for thought! 17:24:31 Because CL:FIXNUM also has one of these BUILT-IN-CLASS instances defined for it - it's not fully initialized so I can't dispatch on CL:FIXNUM 17:24:47 It's just kind of hanging around and not used for anything. 17:25:20 Here we are getting into implementation details. 17:25:24 ltbarcly__: yeah, and that's often how plists are used, e.g. (apply fun-taking-key-args :key val other-args) 17:26:46 drmeister: if you can't dispatch on cl:fixnum, then you have broken something from ecl. 17:27:05 err, I mean cl:integer 17:27:14 fixnum is not a class. 17:27:55 pjb: Right fixnum is not a class: https://gist.github.com/drmeister/4a699b3b1f4153d2a16a 17:28:06 That is from ECL 17:28:40 But with INTEGER it works: https://gist.github.com/drmeister/6d444f48d399e18ff48c 17:28:50 drmeister: ok, so what you want to do, is to take model from the built-in-class for INTEGER and do the same for your C++ classes. 17:28:53 drmeister: okay, and how are other BUILT-IN-CLASSes declared (the ones that aren't FIXNUM) that they do get finalised? 17:29:04 pjb: exactly 17:29:17 Here it is in my Common Lisp: https://gist.github.com/drmeister/c3df94f03a30560f1dbd 17:29:46 drmeister: that's just defining a method on INTEGER, we know that works 17:29:46 it 17:29:50 's not the question 17:30:07 what you should be checking is "how is FIXNUM declared differently than INTEGER?" 17:30:22 and do the same as for INTEGER. 17:30:31 and then declare your C++-mirrored classes like CL:INTEGER is, rather than FIXNUM 17:30:44 -!- capisce [srodal@rs5.risingnet.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:30:51 because FIXNUM being a BUILT-IN-CLASS in ECL is an implementation detail that doesn't matter for semantics 17:30:54 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@musicbrainz/user/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:31:24 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@ip68-99-254-231.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 17:32:00 ebw [~user@f051042230.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 17:32:05 Here's an example of how they are different in my Common Lisp: https://gist.github.com/drmeister/370835d94620fc9831db 17:32:43 One thing that is probably not canonical CL is that I can evaluate (find-class 'cl:fixnum) 17:33:19 drmeister: you are still not getting it. Look at *how ECL implements them*, and then follow what is done for INTEGER, not FIXNUM 17:33:23 You get back a BUILT-IN-CLASS instance that is not fully initialized. I will change FIND-CLASS so that it errors out when you do this later. 17:33:43 recycle [~recycle@cpe-76-88-36-147.san.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:34:46 mathrick: I get it. There is no C-struct defined in ECL for INTEGER. There is only a C-struct defined for FIXNUM. The ECL C-code doesn't know anything about INTEGER it only knows FIXNUM. 17:35:47 *bhyde* wishes he had a list of the external symbols of the CL package sorted into the order they are defined in the standard, which chapter delimiters. 17:36:17 I on the other hand am using C++ and I defined a C++ class Integer_O that is a base class for Fixnum_O. These are all implementation details 17:36:26 bhyde: chapter dictionaries do that, surely 17:36:34 bhyde: they're defined alphabetically by chapter aren't they? 17:37:36 capisce [~srodal@rs5.risingnet.net] has joined #lisp 17:37:42 -!- LiamH [~none@96.231.222.26] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:38:24 I need to go - I'm being called away to go swimming. 17:39:05 I appreciate the help - I know what to do now, I'll turn all of my C++ classes aren't in the :CL or :SYS package into CL CLOS classes. 17:39:53 Bike pjb  scrapping the hyper spec's dictionary index pages is, certainly, one possible solution 17:40:14 Thanks mathrick and pjb - that was very helpful. 17:42:20 -!- capisce [~srodal@rs5.risingnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:43:13 capisce [srodal@rs5.risingnet.net] has joined #lisp 17:49:42 -!- [6502] [5e24e759@gateway/web/freenode/ip.94.36.231.89] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 17:51:12 -!- pranavrc [~pranavrc@unaffiliated/pranavrc] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 17:52:49 zbigniew [~zb@3e8.org] has joined #lisp 17:53:26 __stdout [~Nico@p549F688B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 17:53:46 Is CLISP still actively supported? 17:54:22 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-188-61.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:56:49 i got the syncro 17:57:02 tiksa [~tiksa@93-87-107-94.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 17:57:10 but i still get this control-stack-exhausted error 17:58:30 http://paste.lisp.org/display/138718 17:59:38 http://paste.lisp.org/display/138718#1 17:59:49 not on all files i open 18:00:07 open for edit i mean 18:00:09 -!- hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@176.62.116.16] has quit [Quit: hitecnologys] 18:01:15 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@50.196.148.101] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 18:01:36 kpreid [~kpreid@50-196-148-101-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 18:04:11 -!- nipra1 [~nipra@122.177.186.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:06:40 -!- Codynyx [~cody@c-75-72-187-16.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:10:03 xan__ [~xan@80.174.78.227.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 18:13:55 Codynyx [~cody@75.72.187.16] has joined #lisp 18:15:11 bhyde: https://gitorious.org/com-informatimago/com-informatimago/source/b9a21b193f6025fe664d85838c69b929aa8d1623:common-lisp/lisp/cl-symbols-by-chapter.lisp 18:15:20 ebw: yes, clisp is actively supported. 18:15:41 ebw: but you won't get a new release every other second. 18:17:24 -!- dtw [~dtw@pdpc/supporter/active/dtw] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 18:21:46 resttime [~rest@isr5192.urh.uiuc.edu] has joined #lisp 18:21:59 -!- krrrcks [~dbr@krrrcks.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:23:09 -!- xan__ [~xan@80.174.78.227.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:24:27 -!- antgreen [~green@out-pq-249.wireless.telus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:25:11 pjb: awesome! exactly what I desired :) 18:26:24 -!- Aramur [~arare@135.Red-79-148-14.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Aramur] 18:28:36 bhyde: I've started to build a declaration of the CL package in https://gitorious.org/com-informatimago/com-informatimago/source/b9a21b193f6025fe664d85838c69b929aa8d1623:common-lisp/lisp/cl-definition.lisp but it's not finished yet. 18:30:40 Aramur [~arare@135.Red-79-148-14.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 18:31:44 krrrcks [~dbr@krrrcks.de] has joined #lisp 18:33:10 neat. i only need a check list for clarifying a smaller lisp's overlap with CL 18:33:24 -!- ndrei [~avo@83.142.149.227] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 18:34:29 Well then there's always (com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.package:list-external-symbols "CL") 18:36:50 patrickwonders_ [~patrickwo@user-38q42ns.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 18:38:00 pjb: :) 18:38:14 -!- patrickwonders [~patrickwo@user-38q42ns.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:38:14 -!- patrickwonders_ is now known as patrickwonders 18:38:23 prxq [~mommer@mnhm-4d011a25.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 18:38:53 -!- bananagram [~bot@c-76-30-158-226.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: "", said the cow] 18:39:08 bhyde: those symbols are in several chapters: (eql values or and not t function nil) (member) (bit) (/ - + *) 18:39:29 and a symbol can also be defined several times in the same chapter. 18:39:33 pjb: indeed 18:41:06 qdhfgfgh3gg1 [~muslimmas@197.195.170.170] has joined #lisp 18:41:25 -!- qdhfgfgh3gg1 [~muslimmas@197.195.170.170] has quit [Excess Flood] 18:41:39 qdhfgfgh3gg1 [~muslimmas@197.195.170.170] has joined #lisp 18:41:40 pjb: I'll probably roll my own so I don't have to have the L word discussion with others 18:41:45 ebw` [~user@g230134095.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 18:41:54 -!- qdhfgfgh3gg1 [~muslimmas@197.195.170.170] has left #lisp 18:42:22 I'm all for NIH. 18:42:52 pjb: it's a CL culture norm! 18:44:36 -!- ebw [~user@f051042230.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:46:51 -!- guyal [~anonymous@108-235-117-64.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:49:03 guyal [~anonymous@108-235-117-64.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:49:26 -!- ehu [ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:54:08 -!- _d3f [~gnu@46.183.216.234] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.1] 19:00:54 davazp [~user@92.251.142.169.threembb.ie] has joined #lisp 19:00:59 -!- k0001 [~k0001@host241.190-226-194.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 19:04:06 -!- mpstyler [~user@176.73.154.121] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:05:09 ndrei [~avo@83.142.149.227] has joined #lisp 19:06:42 -!- void64 [~luke@178.122.26.215] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:07:04 -!- hypno [~hypno@impulse2.gothiaso.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:08:39 nug700 [~nug700@174-26-130-178.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 19:10:33 -!- benny [~user@maidenhead3.tunnelr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:10:40 WarWeasle [~Kaltara@162.72.14.206] has joined #lisp 19:13:21 -!- surrounder [~surrounde@095-096-032-026.static.chello.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:13:58 surrounder_ [~surrounde@095-096-032-026.static.chello.nl] has joined #lisp 19:14:02 -!- surrounder_ [~surrounde@095-096-032-026.static.chello.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:15:20 hypno [~hypno@impulse2.gothiaso.com] has joined #lisp 19:15:33 -!- recycle [~recycle@cpe-76-88-36-147.san.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:16:25 knob [~knob@66-50-3-27.prtc.net] has joined #lisp 19:17:14 surrounder [~surrounde@095-096-032-026.static.chello.nl] has joined #lisp 19:19:08 void64 [~luke@178.122.55.99] has joined #lisp 19:21:00 benny [~user@maidenhead3.tunnelr.com] has joined #lisp 19:21:37 -!- WarWeasle [~Kaltara@162.72.14.206] has quit [Quit: AndroIRC - Android IRC Client ( http://www.androirc.com )] 19:25:41 benkard [~benkard@2a01:198:6d5:0:381d:d634:e75e:392b] has joined #lisp 19:26:12 ebw`: http://sourceforge.net/p/clisp/clisp/ci/97c19a70b668d87c169342db3eb9dd557e22fefd/log/?path= 19:26:43 last commit is from april, so while it's not exactly forging ahead, it still sees some work 19:27:54 k0001 [~k0001@host5.186-125-116.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 19:29:50 ehu [ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 19:30:50 -!- eskatrem [~user@81.60.148.124.dyn.user.ono.com] has left #lisp 19:31:28 zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has joined #lisp 19:31:42 -!- ndrei [~avo@83.142.149.227] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:31:50 -!- dr_diamond [~NGQ@unaffiliated/dr-diamond/x-6130392] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:32:31 -!- schoppenhauer [~quassel@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.] 19:33:36 schoppenhauer [~quassel@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 19:36:29 ndrei [~avo@83.142.149.227] has joined #lisp 19:42:04 LiamH [~none@96.231.222.26] has joined #lisp 19:42:42 -!- rk[northcoast] [~rak@108-245-58-182.lightspeed.clmboh.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:43:06 -!- antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:43:18 -!- swflint-tab [~swflint@fsf/member/swflint] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:43:18 rk[northcoast] [~rak@108-245-58-182.lightspeed.clmboh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:43:30 antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 19:44:21 -!- Vivitron [~Vivitron@c-50-172-44-193.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:45:35 WarWeasle [~Kaltara@162.72.14.206] has joined #lisp 19:46:35 knob3212 [~knob@66-50-3-27.prtc.net] has joined #lisp 19:46:44 swflint-tab [~swflint@fsf/member/swflint] has joined #lisp 19:46:46 -!- swflint-tab [~swflint@fsf/member/swflint] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 19:47:31 -!- knob [~knob@66-50-3-27.prtc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:48:08 luke_ [~luke@178.122.225.170] has joined #lisp 19:48:14 mpstyler [~user@176.73.154.121] has joined #lisp 19:49:13 francogrex [~user@109.133.132.91] has joined #lisp 19:49:18 -!- void64 [~luke@178.122.55.99] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:49:42 Dears, I have found this log about attaching sbcl to gdb: http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/sbcl/2011-08/sbcl-2011.08.11.txt 19:50:01 |3b|: did you manage to do that fine ? 19:50:18 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@72.53.108.73] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:51:46 -!- ehu [ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:52:00 <|3b|> francogrex: yeah, pretty sure i've done that at least once or twice 19:52:52 ok, you stored the gdbinit in the location and then what? fire sbcl , gdb how does it go do you recall? 19:53:36 <|3b|> don't remember any details, and have to go afk at the moment :/ 19:53:38 -!- Aramur [~arare@135.Red-79-148-14.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Aramur] 19:53:43 ok 19:53:46 -!- zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:54:04 swflint-tab [~swflint@fsf/member/swflint] has joined #lisp 19:54:10 abeaumont [~abeaumont@72.241.76.188.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 19:54:27 <|3b|> i think it is pretty much like any other use of gdb though, aside from the stuff about configuring it to ignore signals sbcl uses 19:54:55 lemoinem [~swoog@72.53.108.73] has joined #lisp 19:55:07 <|3b|> which i assume is what the gdbinit does 19:55:34 -!- Patzy [~something@lns-bzn-51f-81-56-151-137.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 19:55:37 ok |3b| , for me to try then 19:55:46 -!- benny [~user@maidenhead3.tunnelr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 19:55:47 -!- Houl [~Parmi@unaffiliated/houl] has quit [Quit: weil das Wetter so schön ist] 19:56:18 Patzy [~something@lns-bzn-51f-81-56-151-137.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 19:56:20 Vivitron [~Vivitron@c-50-172-44-193.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:56:54 -!- ikki [~ikki@187.208.148.93] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:58:26 -!- luke_ [~luke@178.122.225.170] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:59:21 luke_ [~luke@178.122.126.198] has joined #lisp 20:01:39 francogrex: yeah, sbcl is well-behaved aside from the signals 20:02:01 there's also tooling to get lisp context and/or trigger a backtrace from C 20:02:36 ikki [~ikki@187.208.148.93] has joined #lisp 20:05:34 unfortunately I can't quite find it now 20:08:22 -!- rien_ [~maker@objectstudio.org] has left #lisp 20:08:33 mathrick: ok because simply gdb sbcl and run -> Program received signal SIGSEGV, Segmentation fault. I suppose recompiling with the gdbinit is to prevent that... but I am not in mood for recompiling now ... 20:09:43 francogrex: no, gdbinit is just a gdb script file. SBCL uses SIGSEGV for GC purposes, it's completely normal 20:10:02 it will break horribly if you stop it from receiving segfaults 20:10:49 francogrex: FYI, Linux *starts* programs with page fault :) 20:10:54 francogrex: http://static.boinkor.net/lisp/sbcl/gdbinit <-- just look at it 20:11:21 -!- luke_ [~luke@178.122.126.198] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:11:45 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@72.53.108.73] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:11:53 luke_ [~luke@178.122.126.198] has joined #lisp 20:12:11 hmm, sbcl-internals.cliki.net is down 20:12:12 benny [~user@maidenhead3.tunnelr.com] has joined #lisp 20:12:14 that's unfortunate 20:12:20 it had all the details 20:14:16 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p5B29804E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 20:16:42 -!- jewel [~jewel@105-236-146-135.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:16:52 lemoinem [~swoog@72.53.108.73] has joined #lisp 20:16:58 -!- benkard [~benkard@2a01:198:6d5:0:381d:d634:e75e:392b] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz] 20:17:07 yes I noticed 20:19:39 -!- ikki [~ikki@187.208.148.93] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:21:57 Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 20:23:29 mathrick: back to where? 20:23:45 Xach: back in here 20:24:37 ikki [~ikki@187.208.148.93] has joined #lisp 20:25:02 I don't know. He's active elsewhere. 20:25:06 milosn [~milosn@user-5af50f1f.broadband.tesco.net] has joined #lisp 20:25:25 -!- mpstyler [~user@176.73.154.121] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20:26:03 pyx [~pyx@unaffiliated/pyx] has joined #lisp 20:26:08 The point is that clisp is complete program. It only needs occasional maintainance. http://tinyurl.com/last-commit-yesterday vs. http://tinyurl.com/last-commit-six-month-ago 20:27:21 Xach: oh 20:27:40 vs. http://tinyurl.com/monthly-commits 20:28:01 benkard [~benkard@2a01:198:6d5:0:d9f6:2e60:cee3:bf0f] has joined #lisp 20:28:03 -!- klltkr [~klltkr@unaffiliated/klltkr] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:28:06 -!- milosn_ [~milosn@user-5af503cc.broadband.tesco.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:28:12 -!- pyx [~pyx@unaffiliated/pyx] has quit [Client Quit] 20:29:04 The only thing you shoud be concerned would be: http://tinyurl.com/last-commit-before-VCS-existed 20:29:55 Xach: hey, an opportunity to come talk about CL in Paris, France: http://act.osdc.fr/osdc2013fr/cfp.html 20:30:33 -!- antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:31:33 On Sept. 20th RMS will speak in Paris. 20:32:13 -!- WarWeasle is now known as WarWeasle_afk 20:32:47 -!- hiyosi [~skip_it@247.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:33:30 yeah... about something of interest? 20:33:45 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:34:58 « société numérique libre » apparently 20:36:15 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@50-196-148-101-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 20:36:36 SrPx_ [~SrPx@177.133.128.167] has joined #lisp 20:37:42 -!- jrajav [~jrajav@66-188-183-116.dhcp.roch.mn.charter.com] has quit [Quit: I tend to be neutral about apples] 20:38:03 -!- SrPx [~SrPx@177.133.101.131.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:38:03 -!- SrPx_ is now known as SrPx 20:38:12 antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 20:38:38 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@internet2.cznet.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20:39:57 October 5!! 20:43:18 PerfectChaos [~train94@pool-96-247-157-124.altnpa.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:43:36 -!- PerfectChaos [~train94@pool-96-247-157-124.altnpa.east.verizon.net] has left #lisp 20:45:18 i better get to swimming 20:46:27 -!- foeniks [~fevon@p5091E834.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:46:31 oh, too bad, I'll be in England that week 20:53:54 -!- alezost [~user@128-70-201-90.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:54:52 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-4d011a25.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:55:35 knob5312 [~knob@66-50-3-27.prtc.net] has joined #lisp 20:56:49 -!- knob3212 [~knob@66-50-3-27.prtc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 20:56:49 -!- ebw` [~user@g230134095.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:58:00 zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has joined #lisp 20:58:18 ehu [ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 21:01:05 ericmathison [~ericmathi@172-15-249-133.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:02:13 -!- antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:04:18 antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 21:04:57 -!- SrPx [~SrPx@177.133.128.167] has quit [Quit: SrPx] 21:06:13 -!- zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 21:06:30 -!- benkard [~benkard@2a01:198:6d5:0:d9f6:2e60:cee3:bf0f] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:09:43 przl [~przlrkt@p5B29804E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 21:09:50 CampinSam [~CampinSam@24-176-103-21.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has joined #lisp 21:09:58 -!- |3b| [bbb@2600:3c00::f03c:91ff:fedf:5b65] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:10:05 |3b| [bbb@2600:3c00::f03c:91ff:fedf:5b65] has joined #lisp 21:11:48 -!- antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:14:43 -!- knob5312 [~knob@66-50-3-27.prtc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 21:15:30 antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 21:15:46 knob5312 [~knob@66-50-3-27.prtc.net] has joined #lisp 21:17:34 ndrei_ [~avo@83.142.149.227] has joined #lisp 21:17:37 foeniks [~fevon@p5091E834.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 21:18:18 -!- ndrei [~avo@83.142.149.227] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 21:20:58 -!- Munksgaard [~philip@80-71-132-106.u.parknet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:22:54 -!- ndrei_ [~avo@83.142.149.227] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:23:30 -!- aoh [~aki@unaffiliated/aoh] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:23:54 -!- ehu [ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:23:55 -!- davazp [~user@92.251.142.169.threembb.ie] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:24:10 aoh [~aki@adsl-99-115.netplaza.fi] has joined #lisp 21:25:43 pjb` [~t@90.24.198.19] has joined #lisp 21:29:54 -!- pjb [~t@AMontsouris-651-1-200-5.w83-202.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:30:31 -!- DalekBaldwin [~Adium@75-142-59-12.static.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:31:05 -!- s0ber [~s0ber@114-36-251-78.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:31:46 -!- oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-132-113.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:32:35 s0ber [~s0ber@1-164-214-16.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 21:32:54 klltkr [~klltkr@unaffiliated/klltkr] has joined #lisp 21:35:51 -!- bjorkintosh [~bjork@ip68-13-229-200.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:36:21 -!- luke_ [~luke@178.122.126.198] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:37:13 -!- fridim_ [~fridim@bas2-montreal07-2925317871.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:37:33 zerowaitstate [~dwaites@adsl-75-23-43-147.dsl.lgvwtx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:38:34 -!- patrickwonders [~patrickwo@user-38q42ns.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Quit: patrickwonders] 21:38:44 oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-132-113.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 21:39:32 void64 [~luke@178.122.126.198] has joined #lisp 21:40:01 patrickwonders [~patrickwo@user-38q42ns.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 21:42:18 cory786 [~cory@adsl-75-22-101-128.dsl.bumttx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:42:54 -!- schoppenhauer [~quassel@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.] 21:44:06 schoppenhauer [~quassel@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 21:44:39 -!- Shinmera [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has quit [Quit: ZzZ] 21:46:25 Aramur [~arare@135.Red-79-148-14.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 21:54:55 -!- bitonic [~user@xdsl-188-155-179-93.adslplus.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:55:21 ndrei [~avo@83.142.149.227] has joined #lisp 21:57:35 -!- arnsa [~arnsa@78-63-18-208.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:01:34 -!- knob5312 [~knob@66-50-3-27.prtc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 22:01:42 Does *default-pathname-defaults* play the role of the "current-working-directory". If I (LOAD "x.lsp") is *default-pathname-defaults* supposed to be merged with "x.lsp"? 22:01:48 -!- k-stz [~user@HSI-KBW-095-208-250-077.hsi5.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:01:55 drmeister: yes 22:02:04 knob5312 [~knob@66-50-3-27.prtc.net] has joined #lisp 22:02:19 drmeister: compare SET DEFAULT in VMS 22:03:04 VMS? That takes me back? 22:03:23 "... back." 22:03:54 drmeister: well, it's closest comparison I recall :) 22:04:10 drmeister: *default-pathname-defaults* plays the role of the default argument to merge-pathnames, and almost all of the file system operations will call merge-pathnames before proceeding 22:04:17 it's not related to the current working directory concept of unix 22:05:17 -!- statl [~statl@dslb-094-218-006-012.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 22:05:25 stassats: How is it different from the current working directory concept of unix? 22:05:42 <|3b|> it could just specify a type and version if you wanted to confuse people 22:06:10 Xach: does (let ((asdf/configuration::*user-cache* `(,pathname :implementation))) ... ) work for you? 22:06:16 that's #+asdf3 22:06:39 I haven't implemented PATHNAME yet - I implemented a type called PATH using the boost::path code. 22:07:01 stassats: hmm, maybe. it is a bummer about :: though. 22:07:06 -!- nug700 [~nug700@174-26-130-178.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:07:21 asdf/configuration:*user-cache* works too 22:07:40 even asdf:*user-cache* 22:07:44 fridim_ [~fridim@bas2-montreal07-2925317871.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 22:08:58 interesting 22:09:00 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:10:06 -!- pjb` is now known as pjb 22:11:16 drmeister: for one thing, *default-pathname-defaults* is a full path, including file name, type and version. 22:11:29 nug700 [~nug700@174-26-134-102.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 22:11:53 So if your file system handles versions, you could put a specific version in *default-pathname-defaults* and have all your file system access that version. 22:12:43 Got it. Common lisp PATHNAMES are something I've danced around up until now - where are they best described? 22:13:15 Nowhere. :-) 22:13:24 DalekBaldwin [~Adium@12.145.136.107] has joined #lisp 22:13:35 There's of course the filename chapter of clhs, but they're so much underspecified, in a way 22:13:45 practical common lisp has info 22:17:59 As Xach just posted it to reddit, I'll mention that I did a survey of lisp json libraries which is now posted at https://sites.google.com/site/sabraonthehill/home/json-libraries . 22:21:45 -!- mshroyer_ is now known as mshroyer 22:25:46 so, is there a survey of the surveys about json libraries? 22:27:17 -!- foeniks [~fevon@p5091E834.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:28:20 -!- WarWeasle_afk is now known as WarWeasle 22:29:22 jsown is best decoding, st-json is fastest at encoding, cl-json has best error messages 22:29:49 i mean it's the second survey i've seen 22:30:25 sorry I missed the first one 22:33:11 stassats: do you remember the url? 22:33:17 nope 22:36:03 -!- francogrex [~user@109.133.132.91] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:36:43 -!- eldariof [~CLD@pppoe-196-161-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 22:39:11 -!- ndrei [~avo@83.142.149.227] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:40:07 -!- dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 22:45:19 -!- abeaumont [~abeaumont@72.241.76.188.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:52:17 abeaumont [~abeaumont@72.241.76.188.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 22:52:40 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@62-165-243-178.pool.digikabel.hu] has joined #lisp 22:52:40 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@62-165-243-178.pool.digikabel.hu] has quit [Changing host] 22:52:40 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 22:56:16 pillton [~user@140.253.50.147] has joined #lisp 23:04:31 -!- Okasu [~1@unaffiliated/okasu] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:09:10 ZC|Mobile [~weechat@unaffiliated/forgottenwizard] has joined #lisp 23:10:14 -!- sabra [~sabra@67.174.222.215] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 23:10:54 -!- cmbntr_ [~cmbntr@slice.loopback.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:11:54 cmbntr [~cmbntr@slice.loopback.ch] has joined #lisp 23:23:19 -!- LiamH [~none@96.231.222.26] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:31:22 -!- cdidd [~cdidd@95-24-229-144.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:32:38 01000111 01101000 23:35:43 cdidd [~cdidd@128-68-18-76.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 23:38:32 DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@120.154.97.132] has joined #lisp 23:42:09 dottedlist: http://i.imgur.com/AHnyPXE.jpg 23:42:29 what is that image 23:42:38 sfw 23:42:45 im using a text console 23:42:59 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:43:42 i would have to copy it then paste it in a text file then go into x then copy it from the text file using gvim then paste it into the url bar in icecat 23:43:46 tinyurl.com/dottedlist 23:44:09 thats better 23:44:13 i will check it out 23:44:46 onr: Wrong channel. 23:45:09 onr: why are you giving that to me 23:45:21 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-180-111.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:45:22 dottedlist: Probably because of your off-topic 010101 stuff. 23:45:29 Both are unnecessary in #lisp. 23:45:29 i assume youre trying to make fun of me 23:45:36 but all i said was hi 23:45:49 Try it with characters next time. 23:46:18 yeah, you don't want to make uncle Xach angry 23:51:24 Dawgmatix [~user@pool-100-1-31-214.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:54:13 -!- WarWeasle [~Kaltara@162.72.14.206] has quit [Quit: AndroIRC - Android IRC Client ( http://www.androirc.com )] 23:55:02 -!- knob5312 [~knob@66-50-3-27.prtc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:55:06 WarWeasle [~brad@162.72.14.206] has joined #lisp 23:55:27 magbo [~sweater@balticom-142-125-56.balticom.lv] has joined #lisp 23:55:39 knob5312 [~knob@66-50-3-27.prtc.net] has joined #lisp 23:56:57 Greetings, gentlemen. Clisp has applicative evaluation but if short circuits it, right? 23:57:40 IF is not a function 23:57:43 and common lisp is not called "clisp" 23:58:03 -!- zerowaitstate [~dwaites@adsl-75-23-43-147.dsl.lgvwtx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:58:13 and i have no idea what "applicative evaluation" even means 23:58:21 Clisp the implementation or Common lisp? Also they should do the same thing, which is the spec. If is just like an if statement in C. 23:58:42 'IF' true then do the first thing, else do the second. 23:59:06 stassats: sorry sir, I was just randomly thinking about Lisp and was thinking about how if is implemented in lisps. I'm a dirty Erlanger :D 23:59:10 if statement in C doesn't return anything 23:59:14 and cannot be used as a value 23:59:27 there is that... 23:59:44 you have to resort to the awful ?: