00:00:14 that's the right answer, sure 00:00:21 (let ((a 4) (b 5)) (typep 4 `(integer ,a ,b))) 00:00:27 --> CL:T 00:00:36 So, that dynamically generates a class to represent the type (integer 4 5)? 00:01:41 normanrichards [~normanric@mobile-166-147-064-127.mycingular.net] has joined #lisp 00:01:47 it most probably just parses the list 00:01:59 Zhivago: I think so - I'd have to dig into the code to understand the details. See, I kind of cheated - I'm hosting the ECL CL source code on a new C++ core (100,000 lines C++) and I wrote a new CL compiler that interfaces with LLVM and generates JIT code. 00:02:15 So if ECL can do it - I can do it, just not as fast (yet). 00:02:37 Ok. 00:03:05 Zhivago: you could say that it generates a type specifier. 00:03:20 I just use C++ classes with its inheritance and virtual functions and single dispatch to mimic what the ECL C-code does with C structs. 00:03:31 well, i got an unrelated question, what's a good implementation of ctz? 00:04:09 drmeister: has your question been answered, or have you merely been showered with more questions? 00:04:26 Bike: which ctz? 00:04:40 that's how ecl handles it: (case (car type-specifier) (integer (and (integerp object) (in-interval-p object i)))) 00:05:02 And that brings us back to the original question - ECL uses the Boehm garbage collector. I want to use the MPS garbage collector. Both of them scan the stack for ambiguous roots. My stack contains a lot of pointers to the interiors of objects (because I use virtual inheritance). A stack scanner won't identify those pointers as roots. 00:05:09 i being the cdr 00:05:09 madnificent: count trailing zeroes? i don't care about (ctz 0) if that's what you mean 00:05:17 ehaliewicz [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 00:05:38 -!- jduhamel [~jduhamel@65.111.165.163] has left #lisp 00:05:44 trailing at which side? in which base? 00:05:48 Bike: no, i was thinking you couldn't mean critical time zone, which was the only ctz acronymfinder gave me 00:05:51 -!- yakov [~yakov@128-69-12-163.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:06:02 the right, in base 2 (though i guess general would be fun to know) 00:06:19 (1- (integer-length (logand n (- n)))) is one 00:06:46 BSF on x86 00:06:57 madnificent: I was showered with more questions - but I'm used to that - I always learn something. 00:07:06 ThePhoeron [~thephoero@CPE68b6fcc5ca13-CM68b6fcc5ca10.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 00:07:14 any way to do that from lisp (say, sbcl)? 00:07:45 -!- ThePhoeron [~thephoero@CPE68b6fcc5ca13-CM68b6fcc5ca10.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has left #lisp 00:07:54 ThePhoeron [~thephoero@CPE68b6fcc5ca13-CM68b6fcc5ca10.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 00:08:08 for (unsigned-byte word) arguments, it's an easy VOP 00:08:59 chu [~user@unaffiliated/chu] has joined #lisp 00:09:11 well i'll see if i can do that then 00:09:22 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@mobile-166-147-064-127.mycingular.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:09:30 -!- keltvek [~keltvek@unaffiliated/keltvek] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:09:37 do you need it to be that fast? 00:10:05 not really, just curious 00:10:44 Zhivago: I didn't mean to say "I think so" in response to your question "Does it dynamically generate a class to represent the type (integer 4 5)" - it cannot do that - it must do something else. 00:12:05 That's one reason that I'm not sure that your approach is a sensible one regarding types. 00:12:30 Zhivago: Understood - that bears further thought. 00:12:48 Good luck. :) 00:13:15 motionman [~motionman@unaffiliated/motionman] has joined #lisp 00:15:03 -!- garman [~killian@ip-18-98.net.ksu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:15:39 Zhivago: I guess I'd have to identify what functions accept "type-specifiers" as arguments in addition to TYPEP and see how they all deal with the type-specifier. 00:16:12 A type-specifier is always represented as a list or a symbol - correct? 00:16:28 Yeah. 00:16:42 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 00:17:54 Do other implementations transform them into something else - like something that has storage and values that bound the type? I can't imagine what they would do with: (and list (not null)) 00:18:10 that's just cons 00:18:21 and yes, cmucl had a struct-based system, now used by sbcl and ccl 00:18:39 and probably still cmucl i guess 00:19:51 How complicated can type-specifiers get? 00:20:00 very 00:20:12 -!- DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:20:18 on sbcl, hairy 00:20:23 Can I define a type that is a list that is less than three elements long or more than five elements long? 00:20:42 (or (not (cons (eql 0) (real 1.0 1.0))) (not (cons t (eql 0))))) is one that still trips up ccl, i think 00:20:50 drmeister: yes, though it's ugly 00:21:38 hiyosi [~skip_it@247.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has joined #lisp 00:22:07 %primitive doesn't give the right return sequence, but i can't be bothered to write a defknown 00:22:18 So if every function that would accept a type-specifier in CL were written to parse the type-specifier as a list - everything should still work shouldn't it? Maybe it's slower than what SBCL or cmucl do. 00:22:22 wrong channel 00:22:47 I think that it's probably best to understand the type system as an ontological database. 00:22:52 DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has joined #lisp 00:23:18 Zhivago: Yes, but I'm more worried about implementation details and correctness. 00:23:26 I mean - that's why I'm asking. 00:23:27 (deftype list-of-length (n) (if (zerop n) 'null `(cons t (list-of-length (1- n))))) (deftype list-under (n) `(or ,@(loop for i upto n collecting (list-of-length n)))) (deftype list-over (n) (if (zerop n) 'list `(cons t (list-over ,(1- n))))) 00:23:50 and then it's "just" (or (list-under 3) (list-over 5)), though i probably made fencepost errors 00:24:19 Bike: If the DOD gives me another five years of funding - are you interested in a job in the Philadelphia area? :-) 00:24:45 selling out to the military, now there's an idea i can get behind 00:24:51 Zhivago: do tell 00:25:11 Hey - every $100 they give me to support my research means they buy one less bullet. 00:26:02 And the stuff we are working on will solve all of our problems. 00:26:14 Bike: Remember that CL doesn't support recursive types. :) 00:26:26 Or, at least, doesn't require that they work. 00:27:30 You'd probably just ditch to satisfies for that case. 00:27:31 Well, I'll admit - I don't understand CL types as well as I'd like to - I'm running kind of fast and loose to get a CL system up and running and I'm trusting that if ECL got it right - then I'll have it right. 00:27:59 Fair enough -- I may have misunderstood what you meant when you said that you were implementing the CL type system using C++ class inheritance. 00:28:22 I was thinking that they were like complicated predicates that return true or false on a value. The value is either in the set that the type defines or it's not. 00:29:43 Zhivago: No sweat - and I realize that the onus is on me to demonstrate working code - it's taking longer than I thought. 00:29:55 CL is a big language. 00:30:07 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@1.150.56.41] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 00:30:42 With a lot of tricky structure inside of it. I kind of wish I had gone with Scheme - I could have had that knocked out in a couple of weeks. 00:31:00 DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@1.150.56.41] has joined #lisp 00:31:11 But I just had to go and implement Common Lisp (sigh). 00:31:38 Zhivago: ? the recursions all base out 00:31:41 The freakin' Cadillac of languages. 00:34:07 bike: Fair enough. 00:34:22 not to say that it's not a terrible type. 00:38:03 Zhivago: I read enough of the article you sent me to say that I did not consider "superclass linearization". Had I done that I would have lost C++ inheritance, virtual functions and polymorphism - which is kind of the reason why I use C++. I would have had to do all dispatching myself. 00:38:57 Maybe I should have done it for the few cases of multiple-inheritance. 00:39:50 -!- k0001 [~k0001@host159.190-136-194.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:41:51 k0001 [~k0001@host71.186-125-119.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 00:42:08 Actually - now that I think about it - I wonder if it's really just a problem with multiple inheritance of data. 00:43:12 chameco [~samuel@cpe-74-69-188-107.stny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:46:45 drmeister: This is wrong: " C++ pointers can point into the interior of an object and so a conservative garbage collector will not recognize those pointers as roots on the stack." 00:47:27 A conservative GC WILL recognize any address to some allocated _byte_ as a pointer to the allocated _block_. 00:47:38 -!- bananagram [~bot@c-76-30-158-226.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:48:28 a new release of GCL? http://www.gnu.org/software/gcl/ last thing I would have expected 00:48:29 A conservative GC for C would even recognize one byte beyond, since you can safely in C keep pointers to the next byte of your memories. 00:48:38 ezakimak [~nick@72.250.219.55] has joined #lisp 00:49:26 char* p=newstr("abcd")+5; assert(p[-2]=='d'); 00:49:37 pjb: The Memory Pool System guys are working on the problem. If I understand correctly they need the pointer to point to the beginning of the block. They are working checking stack pointers against the memory range occupied by a block. 00:51:52 pjb: But could you tell me more - are you referring to the Boehm garbage collector specifically? It's going to be GC implementation dependent isn't it? 00:53:45 Yes, I have BoehmGC in mind. 00:54:29 garman [~killian@ip68-102-21-152.ks.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 00:54:33 But foremost, "conservative" means that you won't collect a block if there's the least chance that it's refered from somewhere. 00:55:30 Considering the rules for valid pointers in C, that includes all the C pointer values from p to p+n inclusive for a block of n bytes at address p. 00:56:42 int p=hton(malloc(42)); /* ;-) */ 00:57:37 pjb: That's the behavior that I need but the Memory Pool System doesn't do that according to my discussions with the folks who wrote it. 01:00:07 I wouldn't expect it to be too hard to replace the test for live pointer from a==p to (p<=a && a<=p+n) in MPS. 01:00:45 Their garbage collector is an Automatic Mostly Copying garbage collector that compacts objects that are pointed to from the heap but pins in memory those objects that are pointed to from the stack. This is neither here nor there for what you are saying but I think to make it fast they assume that pointers from the stack have to point to the start of the object. 01:00:58 -!- motionman [~motionman@unaffiliated/motionman] has quit [Quit: tschüß] 01:02:52 pjb: I don't think so either and they are working on it as of a couple of days ago. In the meantime I'm thinking about other ways around it. I'm thinking about other ways to arrange my objects (eliminate multiple/virtual inheritance) or expand my smart-pointers to include a pointer to the start of every object alongside the interior pointer or go straight to precise garbage collection and maintain a shadow st 01:02:52 ack of all pointers on the stack. 01:03:13 Yes, you could do that. 01:03:19 In C++, pointers can be fat objects. 01:04:08 Actually, if you didn't need to manage foreign objects, only C++ objects, you could easily write your own GC purely in C++ by defining your own fat pointer class. 01:04:38 pjb: How do you mean? My pointers are actually template classes that contain a single pointer - it would be easy to add another word within them to point to the base of each object but it would double their size. 01:04:48 Yes. 01:05:40 And as a class, you can add other methods to help identify root sets and all you need to collect garbage amongst block pointed by your fat pointer instances. 01:06:24 Copying semantics, destructors, etc, would be helpful in keeping tracks of live pointers. 01:06:46 pjb: We've talked before haven't we? I apologize but it's a little hard to keep track of nicknames - you work on SBCL - correct? 01:07:17 We did indeed. I don't work on SBCL (I would have liked to, but never had the time needed). 01:08:05 pjb: And yes, copying semantics, destructors are very helpful here - it's those and my collection of singing potatoes that keep me sane while programming in C++. 01:08:08 echo-area [~user@182.92.247.2] has joined #lisp 01:09:40 -!- doomlord [~doomlod@host86-180-26-144.range86-180.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 01:11:30 What do you think of this idea? If I expand my smart_ptr template class to include a pointer to create a linked list of all smart_ptr's on the stack and also add a void* pointer that will contain the address of the object pointer within the smart_ptr then... 01:11:40 jduhamel [~jduhamel@65.111.165.163] has joined #lisp 01:11:54 What's the API you must implement to interface with MPS? Don't you provide a function to tell whether a pointer is a valid live pointer? 01:11:57 when a smart_ptr comes in scope it could link itself into a linked list of roots and when it goes out of scope it would unlink itself. 01:12:28 pjb: You provide an obj_scan function that scans the smart_ptr's within every type of object. 01:12:34 bananagram [~bot@c-76-30-158-226.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:12:36 -!- patrick_ [~patrick@24-52-232-230.cable.teksavvy.com] has quit [Disconnected by services] 01:13:07 I wrote a C++ AST walker that automatically generates the obj_scan function directly from the 150 classes in my C++ code. 01:13:35 patrick_ [~patrick@24-52-232-230.cable.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 01:14:03 Those are treated as exact roots and the objects that they point to are moved and the pointer updated. 01:14:26 Ah, so you mean it's not MPS itself who's determining the root set from the stack. You have to provide it with the root set, right? 01:16:07 So yes, using a specific pointer class for auto pointers would be the easiest way to do it. The linked list is ok, but you have to scoop up the heads from the various threads. 01:16:09 I provide it with the roots in global/static variables, it searches them for reachable objects. Then it scans the stack and identifies ambiguous roots and searches them for reachable objects. Exact pointers will have their objects moved around in memory and compacted. Ambiguous pointers from the stack are pinned in memory. 01:16:18 DataLinkD2 [~DataLinkD@120.159.110.135] has joined #lisp 01:16:30 pjb: I'm single threaded at the moment - one thing at a time. 01:16:34 Do you have other memory blocks than your C++ objects? 01:17:09 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@1.150.56.41] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 01:17:22 Not too many - there are a few things scattered around that are allocated by new/delete and I don't think any that are malloc'd. 01:18:02 I wrote the AST scanner to identify every local variable and list the ones that involve memory allocation - I'm weeding them out. 01:18:03 I don't see how you cuold have ambiguous pointers, if you use systematically your smart pointer class for auto pointers. 01:18:25 lyanchih [~lyanchih@202.39.219.19] has joined #lisp 01:18:26 You may have to use that class for C++ function arguments. 01:18:43 quite pervasively, I mean. 01:18:58 -!- Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:19:10 pjb: I haven't implemented the shadow stack idea yet. MPS scans the stack as a big block of memory and identifies words that contain bit-patterns that if they were pointers point at blocks allocated by MPS. 01:19:24 -!- jack_rabbit [~kyle@mobile-130-126-255-120.near.illinois.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:19:53 So the question is how MPS does determine that a bit-pattern may be a pointer? Does it call a function you provide? 01:19:55 If I happen to have an integer on the stack with an unfortunate value that if cast to void* would point to an MPS block then it becomes an ambiguous root and that object gets pinned in memory. 01:21:41 But even if it doesn't ask you ot identify potential pointers, the mere fact of having those fat smart pointers with a pointer to the actual block will ensure that your actual blcoks are pinned. You don't even have to chain them, it sounds like just having them on the stack would be enough. 01:22:08 pjb: Yes, I was thinking of doing this to smart_ptr system wide (every smart_ptr declared locally and passed-by-value to functions) and then changing the instance variables in classes to behave like the simple smart_ptr that I currently have - does that make sense? I can probably do a better job explaining this. 01:24:15 You are correct - if I left it up to MPS to scan the stack. But lets call these linked-list/smart_ptr's "stack_ptr"s. If I implemented these stack_ptr's then I would not let MPS scan the stack like this. I would just add the linked list of stack_ptr's to the list of exact roots. 01:25:06 -!- harish_ [~harish@119.56.127.152] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:25:51 So template smart_ptr { ... T* ptr;}; and template stack_ptr : public smart_ptr { ... stack_ptr* next; void* ptr_to_ptr;}; 01:27:37 The reason for the "void* ptr_to_ptr;" is I'll set ptr_to_ptr = &(this->ptr); I understand that this will force the C++ compiler to always keep the current value of "ptr" in memory and not let it spend a lot of time in registers where the root scanner will miss it. 01:27:46 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 01:28:14 This last idea of using ptr_to_ptr = &(this->ptr) is a trick that I don't know much about yet. 01:28:39 A very good friend of mine suggested that to me. 01:32:27 -!- ebobby [~fms@38.99.41.44] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:32:30 Anyway, I really appreciate the suggestions and the discussion - thanks Zhivago for the suggestion to linearize super-classes, I'm going to think on that, I might be able to do that to remove the pathological results of using virtual/multiple inheritance. 01:33:30 Also, it's nice to know that I'm probably not missing something big - I'm new to garbage collection - I've just been messing around with it for a month. 01:34:08 Not so much a suggstion -- just to make sure that you understand CL's requirements in that regard. 01:34:51 ebobby [~fms@38.99.41.44] has joined #lisp 01:36:42 -!- davazp [~user@92.251.232.228.threembb.ie] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 01:37:00 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:37:11 drmeister: Perhaps declaring it volatile would be better to force the compiler to store it in RAM? 01:40:08 pjb: That's a very interesting suggestion - I was reading up on the volatile keyword - are it's semantics that well defined and portable across C++ compilers? (Am I using the word "semantics" properly?) It looked like C++ has this new template class called atomic that is supposed to improve on "volatile" - do you know anything about that? 01:41:26 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:42:01 I still don't have a clear idea of what I'm trying to prevent the compiler from doing - keep the pointer value in memory and not registers - I'm told - so I don't know which of these features would be best or even appropriate to use. 01:42:14 -!- travisr [~travisrod@17.223.151.202] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:42:50 How about passing it as an argument? 01:43:07 thingywhaty [~Adium@59.167.212.205] has joined #lisp 01:43:42 -!- thingywhaty [~Adium@59.167.212.205] has left #lisp 01:43:45 Well, it's probably highly compiler dependant. But when it works, it works :-) 01:43:46 -!- Bike [~Glossina@wl-nat100.it.wsu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:43:49 volatile doesn't require things to be stored in ram, per se -- it establishes that accesses to a variable are essentially side-effecting operations, like i/o. 01:44:10 For example, you'd use volatile for memory mapped io registers. 01:44:11 seangrov` [~user@c-69-181-197-122.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:45:03 Zhivago: What do you mean by "passing it as an argument"? 01:45:38 Well, if you want it to be scanned by whatever scans things that are passed as arguments, then passing it as an argument would probably be the easiest way to achieve that. 01:45:51 I may have missed something important, though. 01:47:15 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:47:32 You would have to check the standard, but by understanding of volatile is that each time you access it, it should go to the memory, it prevents the compiler to optimize memory accesses out, eg. by putting the value in a register. 01:47:39 s/by/my/ 01:48:02 I guess what puzzles me is that MPS can work asynchronously and making sure that the smart_ptr value is in memory when GC happens asynchronously is a different problem from making sure that it is in memory if GC only happens during say - an allocation. 01:48:05 volatile int x=2; x+x+x; ==> 3 memory accesses. 01:48:49 So if I force GC to only happen when I request an allocation then "volatile" should be all I need. 01:49:57 Well, the thing is that you shouldn't have to care about it. 01:50:12 Those register values will either be spilled into memory, or they'll be in the registers. 01:50:34 So as long as they spill somewhere the collector can see, the collector should be able to get at them regardless 01:50:43 I guess that's the tricky bit. 01:51:29 But if I use a linked list of stack_ptr's on the stack the registers will be spilled into memory for each call (right?) but my scan through the linked list of stack_ptr's will skip over them. 01:51:53 harish_ [~harish@119.234.174.5] has joined #lisp 01:52:10 Ah, you're trying to change to a precise collector. 01:52:11 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:52:34 Zhivago - Yes, sorry - I should have been more explicit. 01:52:56 jack_rabbit [~kyle@c-98-253-60-75.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:53:35 I need to run - I'll be back later. 01:53:51 Thanks again everyone. 01:56:53 Good night! 01:58:26 -!- setmeaway [~setmeaway@119.201.52.138] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:01:42 -!- DataLinkD2 [~DataLinkD@120.159.110.135] has quit [Quit: Disconnecting -- bye] 02:02:30 victor_lowther [~victor.lo@2602:306:3686:86c0:897:df24:98ac:4d94] has joined #lisp 02:02:59 bejer [~bejer@1508892794.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 02:06:06 edgar-rft [~GOD@HSI-KBW-078-043-120-047.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 02:06:12 -!- Joreji 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has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:35:10 DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has joined #lisp 04:36:01 hitecnologys1 [~hitecnolo@109.120.41.52] has joined #lisp 04:37:23 patrick_ [~patrick@24-52-232-230.cable.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 04:37:26 -!- sellout- [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:38:00 -!- pierre1 [~pierre1@179.218.154.208] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:38:30 -!- patrick_ [~patrick@24-52-232-230.cable.teksavvy.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:38:30 -!- Vicfred [~Vicfred@189.232.29.86] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:38:33 jack_rabbit [~kyle@c-98-253-60-75.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:38:48 patrick_ [~patrick@24-52-232-230.cable.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 04:39:15 -!- hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@178.74.86.4] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:39:27 harish_ [~harish@bb116-15-65-135.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 04:40:52 yacks [~py@103.6.159.99] has joined #lisp 04:42:39 -!- patrick_ [~patrick@24-52-232-230.cable.teksavvy.com] has quit [Client Quit] 04:42:48 maxter [~maxter@gaffeless.chaperon.volia.net] has joined #lisp 04:43:40 JohnTerryCFC470 [~JohnTerry@bl14-247-229.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 04:43:46 Hello! 04:43:47 Wanted to share a new programming forum/community: http://thedevshed.net/forum/ 04:43:52 Feel free to join :) 04:43:54 patrick_ [~patrick@24-52-232-230.cable.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 04:43:56 -!- JohnTerryCFC470 [~JohnTerry@bl14-247-229.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Client Quit] 04:44:02 ltbarcly [~jvanwink@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:44:23 sellout- [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:44:48 -!- MrWoohoo [~MrWoohoo@pool-108-38-175-139.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:44:56 Damn spamers. 04:45:07 -!- hitecnologys1 is now known as hitecnologys 04:46:06 -!- ltbarcly__ [~jvanwink@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:50:55 quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-98-217.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 04:51:50 -!- Karl_dscc [~localhost@ipdsw03.informatik.fh-schmalkalden.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:54:14 quazimod1 [~quazimodo@c27-253-98-217.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 04:54:33 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:57:41 -!- optikalmouse [~omouse@69-165-245-60.cable.teksavvy.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 04:57:48 -!- arenz [~arenz@HSI-KBW-109-193-252-079.hsi7.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:58:39 ltbarcly_ [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:58:47 danielszmulewicz [~danielszm@185.3.146.143] has joined #lisp 05:02:18 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 05:03:02 -!- ltbarcly_ [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:04:43 motionman [~motionman@unaffiliated/motionman] has joined #lisp 05:05:15 -!- Lefeni [~Lefeni@c-0941e555.143-16-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:05:31 They're everywhere! 05:06:08 They got to #lisp! 05:07:13 We might migrate in 2020 or so. We need time to think. 05:08:23 ndrei [~avo@83.142.149.227] has joined #lisp 05:08:31 (time-travel :forward 7 :unit :years) 05:09:17 lyanchih [~lyanchih@118-163-141-228.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 05:09:31 I have a prototype of library for this kind of things. 05:11:29 -!- breakds [~breakds@c-24-0-146-43.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:13:54 przl [~przlrkt@p5B298EC3.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 05:18:13 -!- patrick_ [~patrick@24-52-232-230.cable.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:21:40 -!- quazimod1 [~quazimodo@c27-253-98-217.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:22:06 -!- quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-98-217.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:22:56 paddymahoney [~patrick@24.52.232.230] has joined #lisp 05:24:14 -!- Codynyx [~cody@c-75-72-187-16.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 05:26:04 Codynyx [~cody@c-75-72-187-16.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:26:47 -!- lyanchih [~lyanchih@118-163-141-228.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Quit: lyanchih] 05:27:09 nipra [~nipra@61.12.27.114] has joined #lisp 05:27:30 wenshan [~user@willow26.lnk.telstra.net] has joined #lisp 05:32:12 Hi, I'm reading Paul Graham's article /The Roots of Lisp/, when evaluating ((lambda (f) (f '(b c))) '(lambda (x) (cons 'a x))), I received "Symbol's function definition is void: f" in elisp and "*** - EVAL: undefined function F" in clisp, while the result on that article is (a b c). 05:33:38 That is code is not common-lisp. 05:34:07 I expect it is an early lisp -- maybe 1.5. 05:34:38 Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@p549C51D5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 05:37:40 He was talking about things such as seven primitive operators so I thought the expressions in the article were very fundamental and could be processed by most Lisp implementations. 05:38:15 In CL you should use (funcall f '(b c)). 05:38:18 Then he probably supplied a reference implementation. 05:38:20 jerryzhou [~jerryzhou@58.245.253.218] has joined #lisp 05:38:28 You can find one ported to CL on the net. 05:38:51 In Scheme AFAIK you can still use (f '(b c)). 05:39:06 Am I right? 05:39:27 eli [~eli@racket/eli] has joined #lisp 05:40:02 In guile, ((lambda (f) (f '(b c))) '(lambda (x) (cons 'a x))) returns an error message, but ((lambda (f) (f '(b c))) (lambda (x) (cons 'a x))) works well 05:40:19 http://ep.yimg.com/ty/cdn/paulgraham/jmc.lisp 05:40:23 Just read the whole article. 05:40:48 -!- eli [~eli@racket/eli] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:41:04 eli [~eli@racket/eli] has joined #lisp 05:41:21 wenshan: that's because quoted lambda is not function so I can't be called. 05:41:39 hitecnologys: that makes sense 05:42:39 -!- phadthai [mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:42:49 In CL you can write '(lambda (x) (whatever x)) but in Scheme you can't. 05:43:18 in elisp, both ((lambda (f) (funcall f '(b c))) '(lambda (x) (cons 'a x))) and ((lambda (f) (funcall f '(b c))) (lambda (x) (cons 'a x))) work, thanks hitecnologys 05:43:51 You're welcome. 05:46:00 so what's the difference between (lambda (p1...pn) e) and '(lambda (p1...pn) e) in this case (in elisp and guile, they seem different)? 05:46:07 If you interested, that happens because there's not separate name spaces for variables and functions in Scheme so compiler/interpreter can't be sure what do you mean when you (f whatever): maybe you call function named F or maybe you call function stored in F. 05:46:34 And the difference is that (quote ...) forbids evaluation of lambda so it becomes a list. 05:46:49 And list is not function. 05:47:18 that makes sense, thank you 05:47:38 -!- pranavrc [~pranavrc@unaffiliated/pranavrc] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 05:47:51 There is no implementation of Lisp 1.5 for current OS'es, is there? Emulation of old hardware, of course, but no stand-alone? 05:49:07 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@p549C51D5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:49:33 Have no idea about that, sorry. 05:51:10 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@70.114.215.220] has quit [Quit: normanrichards] 05:51:40 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p5B298EC3.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:51:44 -!- joneshf-work [~joneshf@mail.concordusapps.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:52:46 Batalyx: if what you're interested in is M-expressions, there's at least one for CL floating around somewhere... 05:53:27 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-180-111.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 05:53:29 joneshf-work [~joneshf@mail.concordusapps.com] has joined #lisp 05:53:56 Lisp 1.5 is so simple that you can write it's implementation on lisp in a couple of hours, I suppose. 05:56:46 Batalyx: have you read this http://www-formal.stanford.edu/jmc/recursive.pdf ? 05:57:46 doomlord [~doomlod@host86-180-26-144.range86-180.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 05:59:51 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-180-111.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:02:32 quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-98-217.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 06:02:36 quazimod1 [~quazimodo@c27-253-98-217.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 06:03:11 might have, but some time a go. why? 06:03:42 -!- jerryzhou [~jerryzhou@58.245.253.218] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:04:03 -!- ndrei [~avo@83.142.149.227] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:05:27 This article describes how to implement simple Lisp. 06:05:30 -!- danielszmulewicz [~danielszm@185.3.146.143] has quit [Quit: danielszmulewicz] 06:05:57 -!- paddymahoney [~patrick@24.52.232.230] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:09:22 ltbarcly_ [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 06:10:04 prxq [~mommer@mnhm-4d012655.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 06:10:39 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 06:11:12 Yes, it does :) I might mix that with parts of "Programming language LISP : its operation and applications" I've been reading lately 06:13:11 Friend of mine suggested giving first lectures for new students according those McCarthy's and Graham's papers: "So, as a first thing here, you'll implement Lisp." 06:13:11 -!- spacefrogg^ is now known as spacefrogg 06:13:12 -!- garman [~killian@ip68-102-21-152.ks.ok.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:13:12 hitecnologys: see: http://informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/small-cl-pgms/wang.html but also, since we have LISP 1.5 sources and emulators of its machine, why would be the purpose? 06:14:30 -!- ltbarcly_ [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:16:07 -!- yacks [~py@103.6.159.99] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:16:31 ndrei [~avo@83.142.149.227] has joined #lisp 06:16:32 pjb: just for fun of course. 06:16:38 Oh, that Wang's prg is a treasure, pjb. For me, running Lisp 1.5 programs would be just for fun. I kinda like old computers, especially Lisp Machines would be nice to try to use. 06:17:06 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:17:33 (But the emus do not like other than american keyboard layout, and I've been too lazy latelty to fix that... shame on me.) 06:17:34 -!- edgar-rft [~GOD@HSI-KBW-078-043-120-047.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Quit: maintainance finished by nonexistent authorization] 06:17:34 seangrov` [~user@c-69-181-197-122.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:17:36 Batalyx: on the other hand, the interesting old lisp programs were in a way collected in PAIP and rewritten Common Lisp. 06:18:36 Did PAIP have a rewritten version of Bobrow's STUDENT? 06:19:14 Yes http://norvig.com/paip/student.lisp 06:20:38 -!- abeaumont [~abeaumont@95.63.52.205] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:20:39 xificurC [xificurC@nat/ibm/x-zcnhfadsvfbfpkpt] has joined #lisp 06:22:47 [1]JPeterson [HydraIRC@host-90-233-197-172.mobileonline.telia.com] has joined #lisp 06:23:39 -!- JPeterson [HydraIRC@host-90-233-143-143.mobileonline.telia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:24:42 Shinmera [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 06:24:52 przl [~przlrkt@p5B298EC3.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 06:25:28 n1x [~n1x@unaffiliated/n1xnc0d3] has joined #lisp 06:25:33 -!- harish_ [~harish@bb116-15-65-135.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:25:35 nixmaniack [~n1x@unaffiliated/n1xnc0d3] has joined #lisp 06:27:22 iam [~n1x@unaffiliated/n1xnc0d3] has joined #lisp 06:27:39 -!- nixmaniack [~n1x@unaffiliated/n1xnc0d3] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:27:56 -!- n1x [~n1x@unaffiliated/n1xnc0d3] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:27:56 -!- iam [~n1x@unaffiliated/n1xnc0d3] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:28:09 I feel dumb of even to suspect... 06:28:14 tnx, pjb 06:29:54 oleo_ [5098faa7@gateway/web/freenode/ip.80.152.250.167] has joined #lisp 06:30:04 lyanchih [~lyanchih@202.39.219.19] has joined #lisp 06:33:18 zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has joined #lisp 06:34:23 phadthai [mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has joined #lisp 06:36:52 abeaumont [~abeaumont@36.253.76.188.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 06:41:18 snowylike [~sn@91-67-170-78-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 06:44:03 Harag [~Thunderbi@41.10.111.6] has joined #lisp 06:45:18 Batalyx: well, we're speaking of a small time period anyways, since other lisps were developed soon after lisp 1.5, and since there weren't that many programmers at the time, there can't be that many programs. So the probability of having one of them gathered in such a book is high :-) 06:46:08 But you could browse old papers (eg. the AIM serie) and see if there's something interesting to try on CL. 06:48:27 amaron [~amaron@cable-178-148-241-98.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 06:49:36 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 06:57:11 Krystof [~user@81.174.155.115] has joined #lisp 06:57:39 kyle_ [~kyle@c-98-253-60-75.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:57:52 Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@195.180.2.195] has joined #lisp 06:58:03 -!- kyle_ is now known as Guest11840 06:59:14 pranavrc [~pranavrc@unaffiliated/pranavrc] has joined #lisp 07:00:38 kyle__ [~kyle@c-98-253-60-75.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:00:50 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-178-148-241-98.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:01:48 -!- wenshan [~user@willow26.lnk.telstra.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:02:06 -!- zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:02:48 statl [~statl@dslb-094-218-019-172.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 07:03:47 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@195.180.2.195] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:03:58 edgar-rft [~GOD@HSI-KBW-078-043-120-047.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 07:04:03 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:05:30 -!- k0001 [~k0001@host145.190-136-66.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:05:38 -!- Guest11840 [~kyle@c-98-253-60-75.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:05:43 -!- kyle__ [~kyle@c-98-253-60-75.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:05:46 -!- jack_rabbit [~kyle@c-98-253-60-75.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:06:16 jack_rabbit [~kyle@c-98-253-60-75.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:08:33 -!- surrounder_ is now known as surrounder 07:08:52 jewel [~jewel@105-236-76-4.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 07:09:19 arenz [~arenz@HSI-KBW-109-193-252-079.hsi7.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 07:11:02 -!- Harag [~Thunderbi@41.10.111.6] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:11:35 should I take comparisons like this seriously? http://benchmarksgame.alioth.debian.org/u32/lisp.php 07:11:57 youlysses [~user@24-217-211-79.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 07:13:27 xificurC: it depends. if you are interested in benchmark performance, then sure. 07:13:35 Harag [~Thunderbi@41.27.186.231] has joined #lisp 07:13:56 xificurC: if you're interested in application performance, then probably not so much. 07:14:03 diadara [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has joined #lisp 07:15:55 H4ns: what i usually get from these is like - sbcl is twice as slow as java while you write about the same amount of code 07:16:26 which doesnt sound right to me, although im not the one to make conclusions in the field of programming 07:17:29 xificurC: you should not draw any conclusions from such results unless what you are looking for is specifically the results for the operations that the benchmark tests. 07:17:59 -!- pillton [~user@140.253.50.147] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 07:18:28 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p5B298EC3.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:19:13 -!- diadara [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 07:19:32 diadara [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has joined #lisp 07:19:43 hkBst [~marijn@80.120.175.18] has joined #lisp 07:19:43 -!- hkBst [~marijn@80.120.175.18] has quit [Changing host] 07:19:43 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 07:19:58 H4ns: i'd just like to know where can I put e.g. SBCL performance-wise 07:20:10 setmeaway [~setmeaway@119.201.52.138] has joined #lisp 07:20:23 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-140-131.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:20:28 xificurC: what does "performance" mean to you? 07:20:33 all I find on the net is 'C is the king and everything else is slow/useless/derived from c' 07:21:11 xificurC: c is the speed king because it does not provide many useful abstractions. it is no more than a glorified macro assembler 07:21:24 -!- youlysses [~user@24-217-211-79.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:21:36 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 07:22:17 H4ns: if i run a program written in C that will work on my task 10 seconds how long will the same application run if it was written in sbcl? something like that 07:22:50 youlysse` [~user@24-217-211-79.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 07:23:45 ebw [~user@e181179187.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 07:23:54 -!- setmeaway [~setmeaway@119.201.52.138] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:24:16 keltvek [~keltvek@unaffiliated/keltvek] has joined #lisp 07:24:23 harish_ [harish@nat/redhat/x-syahyqursqtotzzi] has joined #lisp 07:26:02 -!- jack_rabbit [~kyle@c-98-253-60-75.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:26:02 More correctly, C is the speed king because a vast crapload of manhours has gone into it. 07:26:21 If you think back to the 80s, you may remember when pascal was a serious contender, and people were avoiding C because it was too slow. 07:27:04 It wasn't really until the 90s that people started to replace 'asm' with 'c' where speed was important. 07:27:15 -!- youlysse` [~user@24-217-211-79.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:28:40 -!- ThePhoeron [~thephoero@CPE68b6fcc5ca13-CM68b6fcc5ca10.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:28:41 MrWoohoo [~MrWoohoo@pool-108-38-175-139.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 07:28:49 Zhivago: right. because contrary to an assembler, a c compiler can be smarter than a person about the instructions that it emits. 07:30:03 xificurC: there is no general answer to your question. it is easy to write simple and fast code in c, but if your problem is complex, it is also easy to not get anything done in c because it provides you little abstractions that are useful to address complex tasks. 07:30:21 -!- Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 07:30:29 ThePhoeron [~thephoero@CPE68b6fcc5ca13-CM68b6fcc5ca10.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 07:30:52 youlysses [~user@24-217-211-79.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 07:31:30 xificurC: common lisp (and sbcl in particular) provides for useful, high-level abstractions and mechanisms to write fast programs. they might not be as fast as the same programs written in c, but as they say: unwritten code has no bugs and executes at the speed of mouth. 07:31:55 xificurC: (i.e. it is much harder to write complex programs in c, even if they'd theoretically be faster if they were written) 07:32:40 xificurC: these is the "vast crapload of manhours" that Zhivago was mentioning :) 07:33:14 -!- diadara [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:33:35 diadara [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has joined #lisp 07:34:26 -!- abeaumont [~abeaumont@36.253.76.188.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:34:43 H4ns: thanks 07:35:47 Well, my point is that C isn't very good for optimization -- but a lot of effort has gone into it. 07:36:06 -!- Harag [~Thunderbi@41.27.186.231] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:36:14 abeaumont [~abeaumont@36.253.76.188.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 07:36:15 -!- Shinmera [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:36:23 I'm not arguing that CL is a reasonable competitor, but I think that only part of that is due to language design choices. 07:37:24 __stdout [~Nico@p549F69EC.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 07:37:26 I expect that javascript implementations will overtake the best CL implementations within 5 years. 07:37:36 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Quit: restarting gg?] 07:37:44 And, actually, I suspect that's where the main threat to C lies -- javascript. :) 07:37:54 youlysse` [~user@24-217-211-79.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 07:38:06 hallelujah! 07:38:10 Harag [~Thunderbi@41.10.11.211] has joined #lisp 07:38:13 Shinmera [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 07:38:19 -!- youlysses [~user@24-217-211-79.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:39:26 -!- Tristam [~Tristam@bodhilinux/team/Tristam] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:40:01 bitonic [~user@xdsl-188-155-179-93.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 07:40:04 -!- SrPx [~SrPx@177.98.105.195] has quit [Quit: SrPx] 07:40:08 Tristam [~Tristam@bodhilinux/team/Tristam] has joined #lisp 07:40:55 (and for similar reasons -- a vast crapload of manhours) 07:41:08 Zhivago: well... I heard at least some stuff from JS camp that they are hitting the wall on optimizing without breaking semantics 07:41:39 diadara_ [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has joined #lisp 07:41:43 we will see how it will go, though 07:41:59 youlysses [~user@24-217-211-79.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 07:42:19 p_l: i think nobody would claim that the high-performance js world is going to be very pretty 07:42:34 -!- diadara [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 07:42:41 the most recent theme is putting what is essentially a portable assembly inside JS, that can be interpreted, but can also be compiled with different compiler because it is not JavaScript as much as "DSL" implemented in JS 07:42:56 -!- youlysse` [~user@24-217-211-79.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:43:54 p_l: yet it works remarkably well (asm.js) 07:44:01 SrPx [~SrPx@177.98.105.195] has joined #lisp 07:44:12 some analysis I've read (targeted mostly at mobile developers) made me recall a well known aviation saying - "With good enough engine, even barn doors will fly" 07:44:24 brucem: inline assembly generally works pretty well in bypassing language 07:45:23 now let's all imagine what would happen if we had these craploads of man hours available to improve CL!!1 07:45:29 hallelujah once more! 07:45:32 Marc Feeley was doing some work with Gambit and asm.js  no reason that a CL impl couldn't do it too. 07:45:41 personally, I hoped for more spread of PNaCL, but people who forget their JS is driving crotch rockets think they can move everything over into JS... 07:46:15 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:46:24 brucem: well, If someone is desperate enough... 07:47:02 this js craze looks to me like a good way of keeping computer performance at standstill ;) 07:47:06 -!- youlysses [~user@24-217-211-79.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:47:41 pavelpenev [~quassel@melontech.com] has joined #lisp 07:48:06 -!- Tristam [~Tristam@bodhilinux/team/Tristam] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:49:07 dottedlist [~Unknown@141.0.169.95] has joined #lisp 07:49:14 ck`` [~ck@dslb-094-219-235-135.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 07:49:39 -!- Harag [~Thunderbi@41.10.11.211] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:50:30 -!- diadara_ [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:51:06 -!- bitonic [~user@xdsl-188-155-179-93.adslplus.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:51:14 you should all move to a different network :) 07:51:17 like oftc 07:51:50 Has anyone used cl-markdown or 3bmd? ( https://github.com/gwkkwg/cl-markdown ) ( https://github.com/3b/3bmd ) Cl-Markdown seems to be pretty old and inactive and 3bmd a bit too new, from what I can gather in the README. 07:52:12 Shinmera: what is cl-markdown? 07:52:22 A markdown to HTML parser 07:52:37 Harag [~Thunderbi@41.13.24.45] has joined #lisp 07:53:25 youlysses [~user@24-217-211-79.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 07:53:36 diadara_ [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has joined #lisp 07:57:16 Hm, I can't even quickload 3bmd... esrap seems to fail. 07:57:51 does cl-markdown have anything to do with lisp? 07:58:03 Well yes, it's a CL implementation of markdown. 07:58:19 oh cl as in common lisp 07:58:26 i am learning common lisp 07:58:46 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:59:23 where can i get an opensource lisp machine 07:59:29 because i really want one 07:59:57 dottedlist: In mine and many others dreams? 08:00:11 :( 08:00:43 someone should convince lemote to make one 08:01:00 dottedlist: The most practical solution would be to use Emacs as a pseudo-lisp machine. 08:01:19 i use emacs 08:01:45 Can someone try quickloading esrap? I get an error saying that the swank::*application-hints-tables* variable is unbound. 08:01:56 dottedlist: Do you use it for ~90+% of your computing+ 08:01:58 *? 08:02:04 youlysses: no 08:02:11 i dont know how 08:02:36 dottedlist: Read the documentation, adapt your workflow? 08:05:07 p_l: Yeah, but they're also planning on changing the semantics via things like typescript and so on. 08:07:24 fsvehla [~fsvehla@h081217181184.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 08:07:57 daimrod [daimrod@sbrk.org] has joined #lisp 08:10:33 p_l: emscripten's got some nice stuff going on, and I wouldn't mind having access to fairly high-performance languages portably in the browser. 08:10:52 such as, you know, a CL implementation that can compete with CCL. 08:11:15 Zhivago: typescript's just another "transpiler" 08:11:23 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@120.159.212.73] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 08:11:37 they're a dime a dozen in JS land. 08:12:27 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 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[~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:15:27 shridhar [Shridhar@nat/redhat/x-mjofdatdleocwzxk] has joined #lisp 09:15:33 segv- [~mb@95-91-242-152-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 09:16:38 turbopape [~turbopape@41.230.45.12] has joined #lisp 09:16:55 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-180-111.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 09:19:53 ehaliewicz [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 09:24:15 tiksa [~tiksa@109-92-2-90.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 09:24:55 -!- nug700_ [~nug700@174-26-152-100.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: bye] 09:28:15 bitonic [~user@77-56-49-28.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 09:30:42 -!- bitonic [~user@77-56-49-28.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:31:13 bitonic [~user@77-56-49-28.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 09:35:46 wonder what the result would be in sbcl .... http://jabsoft.io/2013/08/29/why-c-still-matters-in-2013-a-simple-example/ 09:40:28 -!- lyanchih [~lyanchih@202.39.219.19] has quit [Quit: lyanchih] 09:41:02 lyanchih [~lyanchih@202.39.219.19] has joined #lisp 09:41:37 jerryzhou [~jerryzhou@58.245.253.218] has joined #lisp 09:41:55 quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-98-217.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 09:41:56 quazimod1 [~quazimodo@c27-253-98-217.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 09:44:18 -!- shridhar is now known as shridhar_sinBbyc 09:44:38 -!- shridhar_sinBbyc is now known as shridhar 09:46:31 -!- quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-98-217.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:46:54 -!- quazimod1 [~quazimodo@c27-253-98-217.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:48:22 grubnik: if you tell the lisp compiler that you're ok with unsafe integer arithmetic, it should be similar to C for such simple code 09:48:33 -!- jerryzhou [~jerryzhou@58.245.253.218] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:50:42 _cosmonaut_ [~eu5183@nat-gw1.edb.se] has joined #lisp 09:51:17 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@CPE-121-218-178-237.lnse4.cht.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Quit: Disconnecting -- bye] 09:53:47 -!- harish_ [harish@nat/redhat/x-syahyqursqtotzzi] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:59:43 -!- abeaumont [~abeaumont@36.253.76.188.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:00:14 -!- przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:00:41 what is a good book that is under a free lincense and is about ai with lisp? 10:01:05 jerryzhou [~jerryzhou@58.245.253.218] has joined #lisp 10:03:41 -!- jerryzhou [~jerryzhou@58.245.253.218] has quit [Client Quit] 10:05:50 pillton [~user@124-171-213-21.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 10:07:30 <_death> dottedlist: not read it, but check out http://www.markwatson.com/books/ 10:07:43 mpstyler [~user@176.73.154.121] has joined #lisp 10:08:51 _death: a book with a free license is not worth much if it is about proprietary technology (like allegrograph in this case) 10:09:11 dottedlist: i think you should consider buying "paradigms of artificial intelligence programming" 10:10:30 -!- _death is now known as adeht 10:10:53 ok 10:12:42 thanks but paradigms of artifical intelligence programming is not availible for free or from the publisher :/ 10:13:24 no. that is the "buying" part. 10:14:08 it is allowed to be modified but it isnt availible for free? 10:14:51 some years ago norvig mentioned (in a private correspondence) that he was working towards making PAIP free 10:14:57 you could try to email him and see what's up 10:15:12 adeht: i dont use email 10:15:23 too bad 10:15:54 it seems to be only availible to buy on amazon 10:16:02 which i dont plan on doing 10:16:06 but thanks anyways :) 10:16:12 BitPuffin [~BitPuffin@c83-254-19-137.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 10:16:57 -!- mal___ [mal@ks24170.kimsufi.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:17:07 "On Lisp" is free 10:17:44 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:17:59 -!- capisce [srodal@rs5.risingnet.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:18:19 you can get a pdf or ps file from the author's web site 10:18:27 Couldn't you borrow it from a library? 10:19:27 mpstyler: does it talk about ai at all? 10:19:41 because im already reading an introduction book to lisp 10:19:48 -!- lyanchih [~lyanchih@202.39.219.19] has quit [Quit: lyanchih] 10:19:57 but if it goes into more advanced topics i might read it anyways 10:20:52 -!- shridhar [Shridhar@nat/redhat/x-mjofdatdleocwzxk] has quit [Quit: shridhar] 10:21:05 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 10:21:46 i didnt start learning lisp because of ai though :P 10:21:58 but seems like it could be interesting to use lisp for ai 10:23:15 dottedlist: PAIP is still cheaper than the Franz stuff. 10:23:19 Well, if I recall correctly, it delves deep in to symbolic computation. Which I found very useful. 10:23:55 gleag: when i clicked buy from the author it said page not found though 10:24:00 does that happen to you too? 10:24:22 it might be because i was trying to view it in a text only web browser 10:24:24 PAIP coupled with "The Art of the Metaobject Protocol" is a great combination. 10:25:19 dottedlist: clicked what where? 10:25:21 -!- pranavrc [~pranavrc@unaffiliated/pranavrc] has quit [Quit: Ping timeout: ] 10:25:37 dottedlist: is there anything else that you want to tell us about how you make your life harder? 10:25:56 uses gcl? 10:26:11 adeht: at least he doesn't use EuLisp. 10:26:58 i pressed order from morgan kauffman and it says 404 page not found on the homepage :( 10:27:51 -!- gko_ [~gko@60-251-71-121.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:27:58 I suggest ordering from someone else. 10:28:15 brucem: Is it pronounces the same way as "eww-lisp"? :) 10:28:20 pronounced... 10:28:35 hmm 10:28:46 i will try to get it from a book store 10:29:16 dottedlist: http://store.elsevier.com/product.jsp?isbn=9781558601918&pagename=search 10:29:55 -!- ehaliewicz [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:32:50 tic [~tic@c83-248-1-208.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 10:33:10 I've bought a used copy from amazon for half the price 10:33:17 a year ago 10:33:29 adeht: ok thanks 10:34:06 "used like new/good" condition has always been ok for me 10:34:11 109 EUR 10:34:24 isnt that something like $120 USD 10:34:31 i cannot afford that 10:34:58 capisce [srodal@rs5.risingnet.net] has joined #lisp 10:35:32 on amazon it is half that price 10:35:59 The prices on Amazon sometimes fluctuate vastly. 10:36:17 i do not want to buy from amazon, adeht 10:36:24 i will get it for free elsewhere 10:38:22 przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has joined #lisp 10:39:02 I bought SICP from Amazon when the price was low, and a week later, it went up some 70% or so. I really don't know how this online price stuff is supposed to work, but surely doesn't work the way that my local brick bookstores work. 10:41:31 -!- BitPuffin [~BitPuffin@c83-254-19-137.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.1] 10:41:41 No carpet slippers. 10:42:06 Most universities I know of have a second hand book store. You might get lucky there. 10:42:18 arare [~Aramur@153.68.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 10:42:49 pillton: i do not go to a university 10:43:17 Which book is this? 10:43:19 dottedlist: That doesn't stop you from going on campus though. 10:43:36 Have you considered using a library? 10:43:40 I don't go to university either, but I sometimes go there. 10:43:48 you can't be cheap with your education 10:43:53 if you want to learn: invest in yourself. 10:44:08 Any employer worth your time would compensate you 10:44:20 and if you're a freelancer, you should be able to get a tax rebate on it 10:44:37 AeroNotix: i have no job 10:44:51 dottedlist: the US probably? 10:44:56 i believe information should be free anyways 10:45:00 AeroNotix: yes 10:45:14 dottedlist: well there's your problem. Education is for capitalists in the US. You're all fucked. 10:45:17 codeburg [~folker@85.183.24.157] has joined #lisp 10:45:21 i cannot get a job 10:45:25 *cannot*? 10:45:30 yes 10:45:33 Explain 10:45:42 Are you handicapped or allergic to work? 10:45:49 no 10:45:52 i am under 18 10:45:54 So? 10:45:58 Volunteer. 10:46:01 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@158.127.31.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:46:07 mow lawns or whatever the cliche American dream is 10:46:09 Zhivago: you do not get money from that 10:46:14 Anyhow, what book are you after? 10:46:25 dottedlist: wash cars, mow lawns, help old people with their 'groceries' 10:46:26 Zhivago: i am after the book PAIP 10:46:36 Maybe not, but you can get other people to buy stuff for you. 10:46:41 dottedlist: parents? 10:46:49 AeroNotix: i have parents 10:46:52 dottedlist: No libraries? 10:46:55 "Mom, Dad, I want to grow up to be a big and strong programmer, can I have PAIP?" 10:47:03 AeroNotix: or he can write software and sell it ;) 10:47:08 adeht: that too 10:47:16 adeht: i will never do that 10:47:25 dottedlist: ahh to be young and idealistic 10:47:38 dottedlist: do you believe work should be free? 10:47:46 selling software is fine - depriving your users of their freedom is not 10:47:52 Software freedom is not about money 10:47:58 AeroNotix: i know 10:48:24 Anyhow, look into inter-library-loans. 10:48:28 -!- przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:48:34 You can probably just borrow it for free. 10:48:48 dottedlist: as in, no one should get paid, but if you find a banana on the sidewalk you can take it for free 10:49:13 adeht: i didnt say noone should get paid 10:49:18 dottedlist: there is always the pirate bay, just watch out for swat teams :) 10:49:37 pavelpenev: i use a vpn so im semi-safe 10:49:42 7 proxies 10:49:44 -!- keltvek [~keltvek@unaffiliated/keltvek] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:49:49 And invest the time required to learn how to spell "didn't" so that you can get a job if you manage to survive to the age of 18. 10:50:08 Zhivago: i can spell didn't 10:50:19 but you didnt 10:50:21 b4 10:50:25 dottedlist: you said "information should be free".. which you use to justify "PAIP for free" 10:50:44 Burgers should be free 10:50:46 because it is faster to type didnt than it is to type didn't, AeroNotix 10:51:02 adeht: yes 10:51:06 Practicing doing things wrong makes you better at it. 10:51:17 Anyhow ... invest in your library. 10:51:31 dottedlist: so once a writer writes a book, it should be free right? 10:51:51 adeht: if its a informational text, yes 10:52:06 dottedlist: how does the writer get fed in that model? 10:52:10 dottedlist: perhaps a grammar book should be free, as well? 10:52:14 Joreji [~thomas@77-23-110-134-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 10:52:18 AeroNotix: yes 10:52:22 Why should it be free if it is informational text? 10:52:24 dottedlist: is there non informational text? 10:52:37 adeht: fiction books 10:52:48 dottedlist: dunno, I get a lot of information from those 10:52:49 dottedlist: what if an author uses a metaphor in an informational text? 10:52:54 should you pay for just the metaphor? 10:52:56 i meant educational texts 10:53:00 since a metaphor is largely fiction 10:53:07 Why should it be free if it is educational text? 10:53:14 -!- pillton [~user@124-171-213-21.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:53:27 dottedlist: who pays writers to write educational texts in your model? 10:53:28 Zhivago: so that not only rich assholes get to be educated 10:53:34 there was a country where books were almost free, but it does not exist now :) 10:53:41 dottedlist: Do you know what a library is? 10:54:05 dottedlist: you're also not thinking globally. Only the US tries to cripple its students when they are trying to learn. 10:54:08 adeht: 'dottedlist: you said "information should be free"' <- information is already free, aside from state secrets, trade secrets, and patents. 10:54:21 And perhaps some other corner cases. 10:54:26 Zhivago: yes and library often have outdated books and there books are often dirty 10:54:28 And things with copyright ... 10:54:41 dottedlist: Do you know what an inter-library-loan is? 10:54:41 pranavrc [~pranavrc@122.164.37.76] has joined #lisp 10:54:41 -!- pranavrc [~pranavrc@122.164.37.76] has quit [Changing host] 10:54:41 pranavrc [~pranavrc@unaffiliated/pranavrc] has joined #lisp 10:54:47 Zhivago: copyright doesn't protect information. 10:54:47 "i want clean books for free, you rich ass holes" 10:55:06 :) 10:55:23 gleag: my point is there's more than "information" in this context.. he actually suggests that writers who write "educational books" should do it pro bono if they do it at all 10:55:34 gleag: hence, work for free 10:55:42 dottedlist: If you want a copy of PAIP for free, I suggest that you learn how to use your library and stop whining on the internet. 10:56:04 Zhivago: Perhaps dottedlist lives somewhere where inter-library loans of English textbooks are difficult? 10:56:28 i was going to go to my local library once but it ended up being closed 10:56:35 also it looked small 10:56:38 -!- turbopape [~turbopape@41.230.45.12] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:56:47 and i dont like dirty books 10:57:02 dottedlist: your ideals are ridiculous and you deserve to be uneducated. 10:57:09 Dirty books are better than no education. 10:57:26 AeroNotix: yes 10:57:34 but i still dont like dirty books 10:57:35 dottedlist: exactly how old are you? 10:57:41 15/16 is my guess 10:57:42 gleag: Well, he might live in a 3rd world country like the US. 10:57:43 AeroNotix: nobody deserves to be uneducated 10:57:45 AeroNotix: 14 10:58:09 AeroNotix: no need to be harsh, just give'em a decade 10:58:09 AeroNotix: that would worsen the live of everyone else and those other people don't deserve that for sure. 10:58:32 also, AeroNotix, you are an asshole 10:58:38 gleag: having ideals which prevent oneself from learning are stupid 10:58:40 dottedlist: how so? 10:58:47 Zhivago: I've just looked into my national library and the closest thing to a foreign Lisp book there is Tanimoto. 10:58:52 He probably misspelt 'have'. 10:58:55 AeroNotix: saying i dont deserve to be educated 10:59:02 -!- ltbarcly [~jvanwink@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:59:07 gleag: Which nation? 10:59:14 Zhivago: .cz. 10:59:21 dottedlist: you intentionally set up blocks for you to not read. Seems like reason enough 10:59:34 "I was going to go to my library *once*" emphasis mine 10:59:36 "It was small" 10:59:44 therefore you didn't try again? 10:59:53 AeroNotix: i'd rather get free books from the internet 11:00:01 dottedlist: free books? Do you mean steal books? 11:00:08 Zhivago: Apparently, we have more Gaelic textbooks that Lisp textbooks in our inter-library loan system. 11:00:13 (I hate the term steal, here) 11:00:14 -!- froggey [~froggey@unaffiliated/froggey] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:00:16 https://aleph.muni.cz/F?func=find-b&CON_LNG=ENG&find_code=WRD&local_base=MUB01W&request=lisp 11:00:24 AeroNotix: no its not stealing 11:00:29 dottedlist: what is it? 11:00:41 gah, I'm arguing with a 14 year old 11:00:45 antgreen [~green@out-on-204.wireless.telus.com] has joined #lisp 11:00:49 whatever 11:00:56 AeroNotix: copyright infringement? 11:01:02 gleag: that 11:01:05 AeroNotix: people who base there opinions on someone because of there are are scum 11:01:12 *gleag* wonders why people don't use proper legal terms. 11:01:24 dottedlist: Is that an English sentence? 11:01:34 Well, they're often also people who can't spell "I" so ... 11:01:53 AeroNotix: this is irc im not going to use proper grammer 11:01:58 dottedlist: What is your native language, by the way? 11:02:11 it takes longer to type using proper grammer 11:02:14 dottedlist: you probably wanted to say "spelling" 11:02:15 Zhivago: english 11:02:15 I hope it isn't English. 11:02:28 dottedlist: Then you're a lazy, useless arsehole. :) 11:02:29 *gleag* wonders why people don't use proper linguistic terms either. 11:02:45 gleag: this is irc I'm not going to use proper linguistic terms :) 11:02:53 dottedlist: Take the care to write properly and you may find that you write things that are actually worth reading. 11:02:53 What most English-speaking people consider grammar has never been grammar. :) 11:02:54 Zhivago: i have been diagonsed by depression and you are promoting suicide 11:02:58 with* 11:03:01 RAPE 11:03:06 -!- bitonic [~user@77-56-49-28.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:03:28 dottedlist: you're on the internet, acting like an idiot. What do you expect? 11:03:41 AeroNotix: i am not acting like an idiot 11:03:46 dottedlist: you were given links to free "Lisp AI" books 11:03:46 oh ok 11:03:48 this conversation looks like a turing test :) 11:03:59 dottedlist: why are you still chatting 11:04:06 I'm sure he's trying to come up with a formal proof for Poe's Law 11:04:30 dottedlist: Why do you think that writing correctly is equivalent to suicide? 11:04:40 -!- SrPx [~SrPx@177.98.105.195] has quit [Quit: SrPx] 11:04:52 dottedlist: You might ask your doctor to test you for mental retardation. 11:05:12 Zhivago: no 11:05:13 -!- ft [efftee@oldshell.chaostreff-dortmund.de] has left #lisp 11:05:18 cyber bullying promotes suicide 11:05:25 which is what you're doing 11:05:40 Zhivago: coz u make a f00l of urself in front of 411 ur hippy freindz if u wr1te pr0perly! 11:06:00 It's just not fashionable. 11:06:09 bitonic [~user@77-56-49-28.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 11:06:09 DalekBaldwin [~Adium@75-142-59-12.static.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has joined #lisp 11:06:19 dottedlist: Well, hopefully if you get older you will become less stupid. :) 11:07:19 "Oh noes, someone critiques me with valid points, it sure must be bullying!" 11:07:25 Zhivago: other way around 11:07:33 Zhivago: you are the stupid one 11:07:35 froggey [~froggey@unaffiliated/froggey] has joined #lisp 11:07:49 dottedlist: As you get less stupid, you will hopefully get older? 11:08:05 Zhivago: not what i meant 11:08:06 Sorry, 'get to be'. 11:08:16 dottedlist: See if you can express yourself coherently. 11:08:18 suicide is great by the way 11:08:27 While I enjoy a daily dose of internet drama as much as the next guy, can we get back to lisp here? 11:08:31 Zhivago: i have aspergers 11:08:40 dottedlist: That's nice -- so what? 11:08:42 I do it frequently 11:08:56 adeht: Are you good at it? 11:09:18 dottedlist: that was scratched, the eggheads have admitted they don't know much more about it than they knew twenty years ago. 11:09:23 Zhivago: well my nick says it all non? ;) 11:10:39 -!- DalekBaldwin [~Adium@75-142-59-12.static.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:11:23 I was very much amused when the DSM-V scratched the former classification of schizophrenias. 11:13:20 -!- add^_ [~user@m37-3-55-160.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 11:13:21 SrPx [~SrPx@177.98.105.195] has joined #lisp 11:15:30 stepnem [~stepnem@internet2.cznet.cz] has joined #lisp 11:18:29 ehu [~ehu@31.137.80.218] has joined #lisp 11:19:04 gleag: I had a giant smile when proposed DSM-V removed Asperger's as a whole 11:19:56 p_l: that doesn't make the problem disappear, it's only an admission that we don't know what's the cause and where to lump it. 11:20:30 jerryzhou [~jerryzhou@58.245.253.218] has joined #lisp 11:20:55 Well, it's a bit like psychopathology -- the term becomes popular and contaminated. 11:21:08 I like to think of scientific psychiatry as of a forty-year old discipline. Like any forty-year old discipline, it has a lot of work to be done on it. 11:21:15 It didn't really change -- it just became an autistic spectrum disorder. 11:21:20 (Very much like AI at this stage!) 11:21:40 They'll probably rename autism next decade. :) 11:21:43 gleag: I was happy because it struck into various people who "self diagnosed" and used it as excuse 11:23:09 p_l: Self-diagnosis actually isn't completely without merit. In my experience, it pushes you somewhat in the right direction. 11:23:12 one of the main things I was taught was that human brains do not have working introspection at all (we constantly lie to ourselves) 11:23:27 -!- pranavrc [~pranavrc@unaffiliated/pranavrc] has quit [Quit: Ping timeout: ] 11:23:57 Unless you're very biased, reviewing diagnostic criteria yourself is a process not completely uncorrelated with an experts opinion. 11:24:01 gleag: you need to know a bit more than majority of those who play the "I have , you can't judge me" 11:24:31 p_l: I certainly agree on the introspection. In fact, an even worse condition turned out to be my diagnosis. 11:24:54 can we move this somewhere else? 11:24:59 gleag: Having an expert works as a filter. But yeah, EOT 11:25:10 Funny thing is, this meta-meta-level cognition was easier for me than the ordinary meta-level cognition! 11:25:34 -!- mpstyler [~user@176.73.154.121] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:28:11 peterhil [~peterhil@158.127.31.162] has joined #lisp 11:32:30 -!- Harag [~Thunderbi@41.13.24.89] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:35:03 -!- Codynyx [~cody@c-75-72-187-16.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:36:28 fenton [~fenton@ppp-124-121-40-10.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 11:37:13 -!- SrPx [~SrPx@177.98.105.195] has quit [Quit: SrPx] 11:40:24 -!- yacks [~py@103.6.159.99] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:42:04 Codynyx [~cody@c-75-72-187-16.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:44:18 -!- ehu [~ehu@31.137.80.218] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:44:23 ASau` [~user@p5797E212.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 11:44:36 ehu [~ehu@31.137.80.218] has joined #lisp 11:45:04 -!- snowylike [~sn@91-67-170-78-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de] 11:45:33 bitonic` [~user@77-56-49-28.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 11:46:32 -!- danlentz [~danlentz@c-68-37-70-235.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:47:16 -!- bitonic [~user@77-56-49-28.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:48:06 -!- ASau [~user@p4FF97B8F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:48:13 -!- bitonic` is now known as bitonic 11:52:18 -!- oleo_ [5098faa7@gateway/web/freenode/ip.80.152.250.167] has quit [] 11:52:54 pranavrc [~pranavrc@122.164.37.76] has joined #lisp 11:52:54 -!- pranavrc [~pranavrc@122.164.37.76] has quit [Changing host] 11:52:54 pranavrc [~pranavrc@unaffiliated/pranavrc] has joined #lisp 11:53:14 walter|r [~walter@c-24-218-217-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:54:40 yacks [~py@103.6.159.99] has joined #lisp 11:55:25 ft [efftee@oldshell.chaostreff-dortmund.de] has joined #lisp 11:56:46 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 11:58:06 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:00:58 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 12:01:27 mpstyler [~user@176.73.154.121] has joined #lisp 12:02:12 przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has joined #lisp 12:05:39 -!- fsvehla [~fsvehla@h081217181184.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Quit: fsvehla] 12:06:50 Tristam [~Tristam@bodhilinux/team/Tristam] has joined #lisp 12:08:03 -!- ndrei [~avo@83.142.149.227] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:10:06 fantazo [~fantazo@213.129.230.10] has joined #lisp 12:10:34 -!- motionman [~motionman@unaffiliated/motionman] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:15:23 ndrei [~avo@83.142.149.227] has joined #lisp 12:16:33 -!- bitonic [~user@77-56-49-28.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:19:45 -!- ndrei [~avo@83.142.149.227] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:20:44 -!- diadara_ [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 12:21:01 ndrei [~avo@83.142.149.227] has joined #lisp 12:21:04 diadara_ [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has joined #lisp 12:21:16 mal___ [mal@ks24170.kimsufi.com] has joined #lisp 12:28:13 -!- diadara_ [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:28:33 diadara_ [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has joined #lisp 12:33:06 bitonic [~user@xdsl-188-155-179-93.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 12:33:41 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-185-168-200.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:34:42 Okasu [~1@unaffiliated/okasu] has joined #lisp 12:39:50 -!- antgreen [~green@out-on-204.wireless.telus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:44:15 harish_ [~harish@119.56.123.143] has joined #lisp 12:45:46 -!- varjagg [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:46:02 pizzasauce [~user@unaffiliated/pizzasauce] has joined #lisp 12:47:47 how do I check if the CLIPS installed on the server is compiled with the --with-threads flag? 12:48:51 pizzasauce: CLIPS? 12:49:12 turduks [~hddddhd@bzq-79-182-160-180.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 12:49:29 -!- turduks [~hddddhd@bzq-79-182-160-180.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Client Quit] 12:50:18 CLISP, sorry 12:50:23 the inference engine? 12:50:42 pizzasauce: have you tried clisp --version? 12:51:40 <|3b|> Shinmera: 3bmd works well enough for my uses, but i've heard a few reports that it is buggy (naturally without any specific details so i could fix it) 12:52:05 Hmm, alright, thanks. 12:52:32 jdz: does it show up in the gcc section? 12:52:35 <|3b|> Shinmera: cl-markdown more or less worked too when i tried it previously, though it didn't handle some of the random markdown test cases i tried when testing 3bmd 12:53:08 Aramur [~arare@135.Red-79-148-14.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 12:53:15 *|3b|* finds 3bmd easier to extend than cl-markdown, but since i wrote 3bmd i'm probably biased :) 12:53:39 I did notice that and it would be useful for some edge cases in the future. 12:53:44 Extending it I mean 12:53:51 pizzasauce: features should include :mt, according to documentation 12:53:56 But atm I can't even load 3bmd as esrap fails to quickload 12:54:04 <|3b|> pretty sure i've also heard of a few people using 3bmd without having problems too though 12:54:35 <|3b|> which lisp implementation? 12:54:38 jdz: so it should be in the "features" section? 12:54:41 SBCL 12:55:04 <|3b|> hmm, would expect it to work there... reasonably recent sbcl? 12:55:08 esrap throws a condition about not finding the variable swank:*application-hints-tables* 12:55:10 pizzasauce: yes; or in the *features*. 12:55:28 *swank::*application-hints-tables* 12:55:40 <|3b|> ah, i guess interaction with slime might be a bit more likely to break 12:55:53 fortitude [~mts@rrcs-24-97-165-124.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:56:17 I'll file a ticket on github later 12:57:50 <|3b|> odd, doesn't look like it accesses that variable directly 12:57:56 jdz: thanks very much. I guess I don't multi-threading. Why it's not a standard feature? 12:58:30 I don't know the real reason, but I would guess because it's new and untested and potentially buggy. 12:59:04 pizzasauce: if you bothered to read the documentation, you'd read "This functionality is experimental. Use it at your own risk." 12:59:33 -!- harish_ [~harish@119.56.123.143] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:59:58 normanrichards [~normanric@70.114.215.220] has joined #lisp 13:00:03 jdz: yes i read that. i was just wondering why it is still experimental after all these years. 13:00:20 <|3b|> Shinmera: do you load the slime-indentation slime contrib? 13:00:49 -!- _cosmonaut_ [~eu5183@nat-gw1.edb.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:00:50 -!- jerryzhou [~jerryzhou@58.245.253.218] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:01:05 pizzasauce: because there are few resources devoted to maintaining and improving CLISP 13:01:29 There are other implementations that have much more mature threading support and which are more actively maintained and improved. 13:01:32 |3b|: I have barely any slime extensions, so I don't think so. 13:01:45 <|3b|> Shinmera: might also make sure you are loading recent slime 13:01:47 If you can use them, it will probably be more pleasant with respect to threading. 13:02:02 Xach: OK. thanks very much. 13:02:38 |3b|: Slime changelog date is from 2013-04-02 13:02:52 I'll see if updating helps. 13:02:53 <|3b|> ok, that sounds reasonable 13:04:31 -!- pizzasauce [~user@unaffiliated/pizzasauce] has left #lisp 13:05:14 -!- bitonic [~user@xdsl-188-155-179-93.adslplus.ch] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:06:06 well, that fixed it. 13:06:08 Hooray! 13:06:50 DalekBaldwin [~Adium@75-142-59-12.static.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has joined #lisp 13:09:14 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:10:46 bitonic` [~user@xdsl-188-155-179-93.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 13:11:18 -!- DalekBaldwin [~Adium@75-142-59-12.static.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:12:03 yay 13:13:51 -!- kirin` [telex@gateway/shell/anapnea.net/x-mtgjgehjpsrbaryf] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:14:40 foreignFunction [~niksaak@ip-4761.sunline.net.ua] has joined #lisp 13:15:27 __stdout 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[~quazimodo@c27-253-98-217.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 13:30:13 kirin` [telex@gateway/shell/anapnea.net/x-vkcuvpqnhkiogduu] has joined #lisp 13:31:16 hiyosi [~skip_it@247.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has joined #lisp 13:32:32 victor_lowther [~victorlow@143.166.116.80] has joined #lisp 13:33:00 drmeister [~drmeister@c-68-82-220-150.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:34:14 quazimod1 [~quazimodo@c27-253-98-217.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 13:34:51 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@c-68-82-220-150.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:41:28 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@70.114.215.220] has quit [Quit: normanrichards] 13:44:20 http://paste.lisp.org/display/138684 learning reader-macros... trying to figure out how to consume the closing #\] character from the stream. http://dunsmor.com/lisp/onlisp/onlisp_21.html is illuminating but I'm missing something. 13:44:39 -!- cory786 [~cory@107-219-7-73.lightspeed.toldoh.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:45:00 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 13:46:37 -!- diadara_ [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 13:46:38 j_king: read-delimited-list would be easier, no? 13:46:40 j_king: I think http://l1sp.org/cl/read-delimited-list gives some good info 13:46:49 diadara_ [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has joined #lisp 13:47:22 What do you mean by "fails"? 13:49:45 Xach: I get a compilation warning about an unbound variable 1] 13:49:57 What did you expect to happen? 13:50:25 I probably just need to look at the reader macros for simple-vector... but I want [1] to read as (make-ref 1) 13:50:26 ogamita [~t@77.104.4.54] has joined #lisp 13:50:54 j_king: the read-delimited-list page explains why you have to do some special stuff to the ending character so it is not treated as a constituent of a symbol. 13:51:12 Even if you don't use read-delimited list, it shows how to do what you want. 13:51:20 Xach: thanks 13:51:42 -!- 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[~py@103.6.159.99] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:20:12 j_king: This might be of interest for you. http://dorophone.blogspot.ch/2008/03/common-lisp-reader-macros-simple.html 14:20:15 s0ber [~s0ber@114-36-251-78.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 14:20:25 *to 14:20:33 -!- jdz [~jdz@85.254.212.34] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:21:09 danielszmulewicz [~danielszm@185.3.146.143] has joined #lisp 14:22:09 -!- danielszmulewicz [~danielszm@185.3.146.143] has quit [Client Quit] 14:22:42 peterhil [~peterhil@158.127.31.162] has joined #lisp 14:23:04 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@158.127.31.162] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:26:54 drmeister [~drmeister@wirelessNAT188.wireless.temple.edu] has joined #lisp 14:32:48 -!- Praise [~Fat@unaffiliated/praise] has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.] 14:33:14 Praise [~Fat@unaffiliated/praise] has joined #lisp 14:37:01 -!- cmatei_ is now known as cmatei 14:40:10 eudoxia 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[Remote host closed the connection] 17:53:34 arnsa [~arnsa@78-63-18-208.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 17:54:34 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:54:44 lyanchih [~lyanchih@114-34-99-241.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 17:59:59 I'm having trouble figuring out how to take an integer and cast it to (unsigned-byte 68) 18:00:18 Why would you do that? 18:00:29 Do you want just the low 68 bits of the integer? 18:00:31 'cast'? 18:00:33 yea 18:00:41 If so, you could use (ldb (byte 68 0) integer) 18:00:42 I'm writing a hash function 18:00:48 I'll try it, thanks 18:00:52 is this #fishing or #lisp? 18:01:18 #badpuns 18:01:50 -!- lyanchih [~lyanchih@114-34-99-241.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Quit: lyanchih] 18:02:51 Okasu [~1@unaffiliated/okasu] has joined #lisp 18:03:28 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:04:20 drmeister [~drmeister@wirelessNAT188.wireless.temple.edu] has joined 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Aquitten] 18:12:36 -!- diadara__ [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:12:39 -!- doesthiswork [~Adium@98.145.118.186] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:12:42 -!- fenton [~fenton@ppp-124-121-40-10.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:14:14 pratz [~pratz@122.170.51.233] has joined #lisp 18:20:01 stassats: you were right, as I learn more I'm seeing the beauty in how it is done 18:20:45 so I would like to create an immutable sequence type, basically immutable arrays (tuples in some languages). How might I do this? 18:21:21 I can't subtype array, so I can't just write methods that specialize on Tuple that throw errors on attempts to mutate it 18:21:28 you could just not setf your arrays, for one 18:22:36 diadara__ [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has joined #lisp 18:22:38 hm 18:22:59 if you're presenting an interface to a user you can just define tuple-access to be aref and leave setf tuple-acess undefined 18:23:09 Bike: true, but that's begging for bugs, also I want to be able to use these as keys in hash-tables 18:23:14 and if a user digs through the code and (setf aref)s they can die in their own hole 18:23:26 oh sure, people can shoot themselves, that's fine 18:23:35 but they shouldn't do it accidently if I can help it 18:23:41 yeah, that's what the interface is for 18:23:50 yea, I don't understand how to define the interface 18:23:58 do I make a class and wrap an array? 18:24:05 (defun tuple-access (tuple n) (aref tuple n)) 18:24:13 also, you can already use arrays as hash table keys. 18:24:29 oh, tuple access needs to work the same as any other array, but attempting to muatate it should throw an error 18:24:35 sure 18:25:02 there's no setf expansion defined for tuple-access, so (setf (tuple-acess array n) v) is a compile-time error even 18:25:15 -!- pratz [~pratz@122.170.51.233] has left #lisp 18:25:16 right, but there you have to know it's a tuple to access it's values 18:25:21 eldariof [~CLD@pppoe-200-238-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has joined #lisp 18:25:25 you can't just use elt 18:25:37 ltbarcly: There is no standard way to do what you want. 18:25:40 hmm 18:25:45 there are implementations that support that 18:25:49 i'm not sure that it's necessary though 18:25:52 There is an SBCL way, but I don't know how it works. Xof wrote a paper. 18:26:12 it works on sbcl and abcl, and possibly another i'm forgetting 18:26:30 what I am doing now is defining a class that has an array in it, and implementing all the methods using SEQUENCE 18:26:51 "SEQUENCE"? 18:26:56 ltbarcly: What's the overall goal? Why are you making this? 18:27:06 I'm writing a python-to-common-lisp compiler 18:27:07 nipra [~nipra@122.177.215.74] has joined #lisp 18:27:12 that's python the langauge 18:27:13 i'd like to see what you're thinking on the hash table question 18:27:26 Bike: how so? 18:27:27 ltbarcly: a new one? 18:27:29 since you can use arrays as hash table keys already 18:27:34 the old one is pretty much crap 18:27:42 -!- dottedlist [~Unknown@141.0.169.95] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:27:45 I find that somewhat hard to believe, but I haven't read it myself. 18:28:02 ltbarcly: if you're doing the compiling yourself can't you just refuse to compile the code that would alter a tuple, since that's not valid python anyway? 18:28:25 the existing one isn't crap, that was hyperbole, but it's really an interpreter written in CL 18:28:30 -!- ipmonger [~IPmonger@pool-72-94-39-57.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: ipmonger] 18:28:39 Bike: but I don't know if something is a tuple at compile time 18:28:50 and at runtime, it would just be an array 18:28:51 dottedlist [~Unknown@141.0.169.95] has joined #lisp 18:28:53 ok, well, how about you don't use elt 18:29:03 ? 18:29:08 since python access is pretty different from elt anyway, as i recall? 18:29:32 well, python adds stuff like slicing and negative indexes, but for single value access it's basically elt 18:29:58 i mean, can't you override __index__ or something with a name like that. 18:30:07 I guess to boil down the issue, given some python function like def(x): return x[5] 18:30:25 I don't know what x is, so I have to have a single generic function for all accesses like that 18:30:45 but if my tuple is just an array, then I can't tell at runtime whether it was created as a list or a tuple 18:30:49 unless there is some way to tag it 18:30:55 has anyone done 2d pattern matching? 18:31:04 subtyping isn't nice, because array is a builtin-type 18:31:10 although I'm open to anything 18:31:13 ltbarcly: i mean your version of [] has to work on stuff like xranges anyway, right? 18:31:17 no 18:31:24 you can't index into a generator 18:31:25 Lefeni [~Lefeni@c-0941e555.143-16-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 18:31:30 billitch [~billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 18:31:40 ipmonger [~IPmonger@pool-72-94-39-57.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:31:56 works on my python 18:32:04 http://docs.python.org/2/library/stdtypes.html#typesseq and it's what i'm getting out of this 18:32:04 which version? 18:32:12 2, did they change it in 3? 18:32:23 ahh, you are right 18:32:28 nm, you can index into them 18:32:36 ok, so I'll have to deal with that when I get generators working 18:32:38 so, have your own python-index generic function 18:32:42 right, I do 18:32:56 but how does that function know something is a tuple? 18:33:07 you have a python-tuple class? 18:33:15 I do, but that introduces other challenges 18:33:40 ok, I'll stick with that I guess 18:33:44 there's no way you can have modifiable tuples and readonly tuples with the exact same runtime representation be dealt with differently by the runtime, obviously 18:33:46 thanks for talking it through with me 18:33:55 -!- ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.195] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 18:34:02 ideally I would be able to subclass Array and just specialize on the subclass 18:34:05 is there a way to read just a single atom off of the stream? 18:34:06 so if you want to reduce overhead you'd have to do some analysis i guess 18:34:06 but again not possible 18:34:13 j_king: read? 18:34:55 if I could subclass array, this would be easy, because I would only have to implement the setf'ing methods to wire them off 18:35:01 subclassing cl:array would work out the same in practice, your subclass can't use the same representation as regular arrays 18:35:02 bananagram [~bot@c-76-30-158-226.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:35:05 so you'd still have overhead 18:35:23 it can, because my python-accessor method could specialize on the subclass 18:35:23 -!- DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:35:35 so calling it would get different implementations of the method at runtime 18:35:52 yes, and the way it distinguishes at runtime is the different representation, e.g. as a standard-object. 18:36:11 Bike: Yeah. I've got assembler mnemonics.. "Mov [1] 0" for example. I would like to create a reader macro that interprets [1] as (make-ref 1) but I'm having difficulty popping off the last #\] from the stream. I've looked at the various articles and read-delimited-list but I'm either making it more complicated than it is or I'm missing some essential parameter or something. 18:36:34 j_king: read-char? 18:36:41 i thought read-delimited-list handled that though 18:36:42 -!- diadara__ [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:36:47 Bike: I mean if I have a method setitem that specializes on VECTOR, and another that specializes on TUPLE, the right thing will happen at runtime 18:36:56 j_king you may need to set the syntax of #\] to #\) 18:37:09 lyanchih [~lyanchih@114-34-99-241.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 18:37:10 ltbarcly: yes, because your tuple will be an object you defined, and not a cl:vector 18:37:11 Bike: it should be an error to say "Mov [0 0 1] 0" for ex. 18:37:19 right, but I can't subclass cl:vector 18:37:29 but you can do the same thing by defining your own class 18:37:35 since you won't be using elt with it anyway 18:37:48 but then I don't inherit allt he existing methods, meaning I have to implement a whole bunch of them with trivial implementations 18:37:52 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@wirelessNAT188.wireless.temple.edu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:37:55 Vivitron: Right... but (set-macro-character #\] (get-macro-character #\) nil)) causes an unbalanced paren :S 18:37:59 j_king: so read the list and error if it's got more than one element 18:38:16 macdice [~user@46-65-10-191.zone16.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:38:16 drmeister [~drmeister@wirelessNAT188.wireless.temple.edu] has joined #lisp 18:38:24 ltbarcly: cl:map and stuff won't work with everything python mapping does anyway 18:38:38 hmm, you have a point 18:38:46 *stassats* prefers (set-syntax-from-char #\] #\)) 18:38:47 I guess the semantics are different enough that it doesn't matter 18:38:57 that's basically what i'm trying to say, yeah 18:39:05 ok, thanks again 18:39:08 good luck 18:40:48 Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 18:40:54 j_king: (set-syntax-from-char #\] #\)) (with-input-from-string (s "1 2 3]") (read-delimited-list #\] s)) => (1 2 3) 18:41:48 DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has joined #lisp 18:42:06 read-delimited-list is trivial to implement yourself, if you really want more control 18:42:56 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@wirelessNAT188.wireless.temple.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:43:00 gleag [~gleag@71.175.broadband2.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 18:43:22 ebw` [~user@e179052198.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 18:44:49 -!- ebw [~user@e181179187.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:45:45 Bike stassats: ok. so it's basically, "always use read-delimited-list or read-preserving-whitespace" 18:45:52 -!- ehu [~ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [] 18:45:54 as a rule of thumb? 18:46:00 diadara__ [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has joined #lisp 18:46:06 shridhar [Shridhar@nat/redhat/x-gwcncojogliwjpqj] has joined #lisp 18:46:47 read, not read-preserving-whitespace 18:47:02 read-preserving-whitespace does nothing in a macro reader 18:47:24 stassats: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_rd_rd.htm#read ? 18:47:31 -!- Vivitron [~Vivitron@c-50-172-44-193.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:47:34 there's an example in there with it. 18:47:47 j_king: "read-preserving-whitespace is exactly like read when the recursive-p argument to read-preserving-whitespace is true." 18:47:51 -!- lyanchih [~lyanchih@114-34-99-241.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Quit: lyanchih] 18:47:54 ah 18:48:01 -!- mpstyler [~user@176.73.154.121] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:48:02 and you want to be recursive-p in a reader macro 18:48:15 mpstyler [~user@176.73.154.121] has joined #lisp 18:49:10 Vivitron [~Vivitron@c-50-172-44-193.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:50:04 and the example with a reader macro is not really clear, recursive-p is T, and yet it says "if read had been used instead of read-preserving-whitespace" 18:52:10 nipra1 [~nipra@122.177.144.167] has joined #lisp 18:52:27 -!- nipra1 [~nipra@122.177.144.167] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:52:39 -!- nipra [~nipra@122.177.215.74] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:52:45 stassats: that was tripping me up a bit 18:53:06 my reader is working now though, which is nice. 18:53:43 why, ye gods of computing, do we mortals suffer with algol-based languages? why do the masses continue to toil in the dark? 18:53:45 anyhow, the examples are not normative and should not be relied upon 18:53:55 *j_king* nods. 18:54:26 sbcl produces (zyedh (path usr games zork) (path usr games boggle)) for both read and read-preserving-whitespace, not surprisingly 18:55:35 tiksa [~tiksa@109-92-2-90.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 18:58:27 and the normative parts can be bogus too 18:58:56 it most likely should be "read is exactly like read-preserving-whitespace when the recursive-p argument to read is true." 19:00:05 not really 19:00:10 clhs 23.1.3.2 19:00:10 The RECURSIVE-P argument: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/23_acb.htm 19:00:30 says that it's smart and decides for itself what happens with whitespaces 19:01:06 "read-preserving-whitespace is exactly like read [with recursive-p t] when the recursive-p argument to read-preserving-whitespace is true." 19:02:41 that's a fine bit of english 19:03:08 so they're equivalent of they both specify recursive-p as t 19:03:23 but different otherwise 19:03:23 -!- travisr [~travisrod@17.115.44.94] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:03:43 travisr [~travisrod@17.223.151.202] has joined #lisp 19:03:58 right 19:04:08 -!- Bike [~Glossina@wl-nat115.it.wsu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 19:05:18 -!- Mandus_ is now known as Mandus 19:05:30 Which CFFI guides can you recommend to a guy who never wrote any bindings before (to me, to be precise)? 19:05:35 Bike [~Glossina@wl-nat100.it.wsu.edu] has joined #lisp 19:05:44 the cffi manual 19:06:08 -!- Guest87569 [~on@207.Red-193-153-86.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:06:15 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@rrcs-108-178-120-144.sw.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: normanrichards] 19:06:47 Hm, OK I'll try that. Thanks. 19:06:52 clhsh make-symbol 19:06:59 clhs make-symbol 19:06:59 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mk_sym.htm 19:07:19 I'm just trying to play with libnfc a bit. 19:09:28 However, I have only 1 readable NFC tag and only one reader on my phone so I'm just reading manuals. 19:09:41 -!- nightfly [sage@destiny.cat.pdx.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 19:10:01 the next fun bit will be mapping AND I get from my reader to TINY-AND then evaluating... and presto, assembler. woo. 19:10:12 nightfly [sage@destiny.cat.pdx.edu] has joined #lisp 19:10:26 sbcl uses ordinary macros 19:10:56 for example: http://paste.lisp.org/display/138679 19:11:26 I'm just curious, have anyone ever tried to run ECL on meego? That may become a solution for missing reader. 19:12:09 -!- jaimef [jaimef@dns.mauthesis.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 19:12:30 in reality, sbcl uses functions, INST just calls test-emitter 19:12:57 but there are instruction macros for some RISCy platforms 19:13:38 which could actually be functions too 19:13:59 sbcl assembler and disassembler are my least favorite parts 19:14:15 they were written by somebody on crack 19:14:28 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:15:16 zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has joined #lisp 19:15:53 -!- victor_lowther [~victorlow@143.166.116.80] has quit [Quit: Leaving IRC - dircproxy 1.2.0] 19:16:03 -!- epsylon [~epsylon@abbaye.thele.me] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in] 19:16:45 that's the step after vops? 19:17:05 or the step of vops, oh 19:17:18 -!- hiyosi [~skip_it@247.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:17:39 yeah, what the vops call in their generator functions 19:17:46 gendl [~gendl@c-98-250-10-50.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:18:09 stassats: sbcls assembler is pretty sane though, afaict. 19:18:12 i think i remember seeing a lot of double-asterisked variables involved there, and something with symbol macros 19:18:58 it tries to do some insane tricks for literal function objects to survive cross compilation 19:19:07 hm 19:19:07 i couldn't follow the logic 19:19:33 doomlord [~doomlod@host86-180-26-144.range86-180.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 19:20:05 jaimef [jaimef@dns.mauthesis.com] has joined #lisp 19:20:26 j_king: you mean the code it generates? 19:20:29 Cross compilation? 19:20:42 antonv [5d7d2a42@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.42.66] has joined #lisp 19:20:53 I thought sbcl doesn't really support that feature. 19:21:16 ericmathison [~ericmathi@172-15-249-133.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:21:26 that's the crux of sbcl 19:22:13 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:22:14 without cross compilation you would need to hot-patch the running image, dating back to ancient times 19:22:49 stassats: yesh. 19:23:26 is that a speech impediment joke? 19:23:26 Maybe this sounds stupid, but how the first versions of sbcl were compiled for different platforms and why can't I do this now? 19:23:56 they were compiled on sbcl on different platforms, obviously 19:24:09 alternatively, on a different lisp on the same platform 19:24:10 stassats: typo... sprawled out on my couch hacking on lisp while the baby is asleep. 19:24:12 and you can do it now 19:24:28 And and the very first version was compiled by cmucl, right? 19:24:52 Can't SBCL be bootstrapped by a different compiler even now? 19:24:57 this is highly likely 19:25:04 that's what the rumors say 19:25:25 I'd assume the "compile fasls for different environment" mechanism must be the same for both. 19:26:04 I think they just output a compiled executable 19:26:59 they who? 19:27:03 Why can't I compile sbcl for ARM then? 19:27:28 hitecnologys: did you write an ARM backend? 19:27:28 The INSTALL file says "Supported build hosts are: 19:27:28 " and then gives six implementations. 19:28:12 stassats: ah, it's all about compiler itself? 19:28:18 epsylon [~epsylon@abbaye.thele.me] has joined #lisp 19:28:32 hitecnologys: i don't understand that question 19:28:54 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@107.201.4.22] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:29:13 I mean, technically I can compile it with different compiler but it won't be able to produce any code? 19:29:35 no, you can't compile it with any compiler, because there's nothing to compile 19:29:37 hitecnologys: check my bootstrap article on cll. 19:29:40 hitecnologys: I don't think it works this way. 19:29:49 I see. 19:29:52 slyrus [~chatzilla@107.201.4.22] has joined #lisp 19:30:08 hitecnologys: SBCL uses itself to compile some of its parts even before you have the final basic image. 19:30:12 you need to choose which backend you wish to compile, and there's no ARM backend at the moment 19:30:12 normanrichards [~normanric@71.22.108.187] has joined #lisp 19:30:43 pjb: can I have a link? 19:31:00 /wi pjb 19:31:08 -!- ebw` [~user@e179052198.adsl.alicedsl.de] has left #lisp 19:31:11 sorry 19:31:28 Is there a CLL archive somewhere? I'm sort of Usenet-impoverished. 19:31:31 sbcl build first loads a set of files which implement the compiler, they are portable, then it runs the resulting compile on the sbcl code 19:31:36 stassats: and, theoretically, how much code do I need to rewrite to make it work on ARM? 19:31:54 hitecnologys: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!original/comp.lang.lisp/ePXrTeCruWQ/9PNas88bxYIJ 19:32:10 it produces a cold core, which doesn't have some stuff like CLOS, then it uses this core and sbcl C runtime to compile in CLOS and whatnot and finally calls save-lisp-and-die 19:32:14 pjb: thanks. 19:32:27 hitecnologys: I'd assume it's a five-digit numer of LOCs. Which doesn't tell you much, though. 19:32:31 gleag: there's google groups, and a few others, but nothing fancy really. If I had time, I'd do something but 19:32:59 hitecnologys: supposedly you wouldn't start from scratch and start from the nyef's ARM effort 19:33:31 stassats: no, I definitely won't. 19:33:52 gleag: and in percentage? 19:33:55 pjb: I just wonder why's there no mbox-like archive for local reference, given that CL discussion in general tends to have a lasting value. 19:34:02 you can see that compiler/ppc has 8908 LOC 19:34:25 hitecnologys: I guess you can calculate that by looking at the sources. :-) 19:34:26 assembly/ppc is 599 19:34:34 code/ppc-vm.lisp is 103 19:34:47 then there are src/runtime/ .c and .S files 19:34:57 gleag: yeah, I think so. 19:35:23 starting to come together http://paste.lisp.org/display/138687 19:35:45 gleag: I just don't know what I should count and what I shouldn't. 19:36:30 stassats: so, about 10k LOC, right? 19:36:58 of lisp, yes, and then some quirks at other parts 19:37:10 the c runtime part, and any other peculiarities of a new platform 19:37:30 ARM ought to be somewhat more complicate, though. 19:37:31 Hm, I not that much. 19:37:41 s/I// 19:37:45 gleag: http://barzilay.org/misc/cll.txt.bz2 19:38:12 pjb: Oh, thank you very much. :-) 19:38:13 SBCL isn't really made for easy porting 19:38:26 I see. 19:38:32 There are few old compilers that are. 19:38:58 Okay, thanks for explanation. Now I probably should go back to code. 19:39:16 Although the really old ones were written in time when there were a dozen prospective architectures, though... 19:41:59 MusangKing [~CatMtKing@ed-uluka.dyn.ucr.edu] has joined #lisp 19:42:15 bitonic` [~user@xdsl-188-155-179-93.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 19:43:28 SrPx [~SrPx@177.98.105.195] has joined #lisp 19:43:33 -!- CatMtKing [~CatMtKing@ed-uluka.dyn.ucr.edu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:45:55 paddymahoney [~paddymaho@24.137.221.230] has joined #lisp 19:49:06 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:49:14 ehu [ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 19:49:36 JohnTerryCFC985 [~JohnTerry@bl14-247-229.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 19:50:55 Hello! 19:51:02 Wanted to share a new programming forum/community: http://thedevshed.net/forum/ :D 19:51:07 Feel free to join! :) 19:51:09 -!- JohnTerryCFC985 [~JohnTerry@bl14-247-229.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Client Quit] 19:51:15 thanks, but no thanks 19:52:11 Somebody should ban him. Second time a day! Unacceptable! 19:52:24 pyx [~pyx@unaffiliated/pyx] has joined #lisp 19:52:51 prxq_ [~mommer@mnhm-5f75eddf.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 19:53:55 -!- pyx [~pyx@unaffiliated/pyx] has quit [Client Quit] 19:54:16 Ha! He changed the number in his nick and added this disgusting ":D" to the second message. 19:55:29 -!- mgile [~mgile@74-92-220-177-Colorado.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Parting is such sweet sorrow...] 19:55:51 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-4d012655.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:58:06 -!- optikalmouse [~omouse@69-165-245-60.cable.teksavvy.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:58:39 -!- NimeshNeema [uid2689@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-vklwpeyghhdghtuq] has left #lisp 20:00:51 drmeister [~drmeister@wirelessNAT188.wireless.temple.edu] has joined #lisp 20:02:05 -!- void64 [~luke@178.122.162.66] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:02:07 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@wirelessNAT188.wireless.temple.edu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:02:26 drmeister [~drmeister@wirelessNAT188.wireless.temple.edu] has joined #lisp 20:02:46 so, why doesn't this work? http://paste.lisp.org/display/138688 20:02:58 it fails on the last line, saying variable NIL is unbound 20:03:58 it works in clisp but not sbcl? 20:04:30 nil is a peculiar symbol to handler, there may be a bug 20:04:36 handle 20:04:41 is there another way to get it to import nil? 20:05:45 import can take a list.. in this case you give it the empty list 20:05:59 try (cl:import '(cl:nil)) 20:06:16 peculiar, ok 20:07:25 Aramur_ [~arare@135.Red-79-148-14.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 20:07:56 mishoo [~mishoo@93.113.190.121] has joined #lisp 20:08:20 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@wirelessNAT188.wireless.temple.edu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:08:50 drmeister [~drmeister@wirelessNAT188.wireless.temple.edu] has joined #lisp 20:09:12 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@71.22.108.187] has quit [Quit: normanrichards] 20:10:25 svs_ [~svs@168-103-104-114.albq.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 20:10:25 -!- mpstyler [~user@176.73.154.121] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:10:42 -!- Aramur [~arare@135.Red-79-148-14.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:10:56 -!- xristos_ is now known as xristos 20:10:57 void64 [~luke@37.214.9.42] has joined #lisp 20:11:55 -!- diadara__ [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:12:27 -!- travisr [~travisrod@17.223.151.202] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:13:57 -!- eldariof [~CLD@pppoe-200-238-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:14:31 hitecnologys, I'm gonna ban you the next time you try to advertise your creation that you want to share with the world. ;) 20:15:50 -!- jewel [~jewel@105-236-76-4.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:16:39 Quadrescence: but I'm not telling the same phrases 100 times per day. And I doubt he made it. 20:17:13 I think I told stassats 99.5 times to use quickutil. 20:17:19 And there's not even a Lisp subforum there. 20:17:53 *hitecnologys* nods 20:18:12 hitecnologys: Your example works in CCL, problem solved. :D 20:18:17 -!- ipmonger [~IPmonger@pool-72-94-39-57.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: ipmonger] 20:18:26 -!- arnsa [~arnsa@78-63-18-208.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20:18:49 gleag: my example? 20:19:13 hitecnologys: oh, my bad 20:19:18 arnsa [~arnsa@78-63-18-208.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 20:19:21 ltbarcly: that was supposed to be for you. :) 20:19:40 well, ccl has a bug 20:19:44 not sbcl 20:20:26 normanrichards [~normanric@rrcs-108-178-120-144.sw.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:20:41 gleag: it works in clisp also, but not sbcl 20:20:55 clhs glossary/list designator 20:20:55 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/26_glo_l.htm#list_designator 20:21:26 it clearly states that NIL designates a proper list, not itself 20:22:10 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@93.113.190.121] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:22:22 imagining situations where you want to import nothing is fun 20:23:25 Import may be in function which imports something requested by user/somebody. 20:23:43 Sometimes it may be nothing. 20:23:54 but yeah, should be a pretty simple fix at least 20:24:15 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-180-111.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:28:48 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@wirelessNAT188.wireless.temple.edu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:29:18 drmeister [~drmeister@wirelessNAT188.wireless.temple.edu] has joined #lisp 20:29:59 *Quadrescence* just learned that you can provide a numeric argument n to ~n%. 20:33:26 stassats: Why does CCL have a bug? 20:33:53 because it interprets (import nil) as meaning to import the nil symbol, instead of the empty list 20:34:17 -!- SrPx [~SrPx@177.98.105.195] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:34:29 Bike: I don't think it does. 20:35:09 http://www.reddit.com/r/dailyprogrammer/comments/1kqxz9/080813_challenge_132_intermediate_tiny_assembler/cbylnyj comments welcome 20:35:19 Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 20:35:52 -!- Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:36:31 nug700 [~nug700@174-26-152-100.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 20:38:05 SrPx [~SrPx@177.133.101.131.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has joined #lisp 20:38:56 Bike: If you run (make-package :q) (describe (find-package 'q)) in a freshly-launched CCL process, you'll get a 'PKG.USED: (# #)' line. 20:39:28 Bike: apparently meaning that freshly-created packages default to importing CCL and COMMON-LISP packages. 20:40:31 Bike: the availability of NIL in that package is due to the implementation-specific behavior for default :use, not due to IMPORT importing NIL. 20:40:54 klltkr [~klltkr@unaffiliated/klltkr] has joined #lisp 20:48:10 weie_ 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billstclair [~billstcla@p-74-209-18-1.dsl1.rtr.chat.fpma.frpt.net] has joined #lisp 21:04:11 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@p-74-209-18-1.dsl1.rtr.chat.fpma.frpt.net] has quit [Changing host] 21:04:11 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 21:08:21 -!- SrPx [~SrPx@177.133.101.131.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:10:06 SrPx [~SrPx@177.133.101.131.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has joined #lisp 21:11:20 -!- ahungry_ [~null@66.184.106.97] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:11:23 ccrouch_ [~ccrouch@70.114.210.142] has joined #lisp 21:11:30 Doing nothing is an important part of any actor. 21:11:54 gleag: oh, i see. 21:16:09 puchacz [~puchacz@46-65-36-47.zone16.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 21:18:49 Myk267 [~myk@unaffiliated/myk267] has joined #lisp 21:23:44 przl [~przlrkt@p5B298EC3.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 21:25:33 -!- puchacz [~puchacz@46-65-36-47.zone16.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 21:26:13 diadara__ [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has joined #lisp 21:26:57 is there a list anywhere of all the built-ins you could specialize DEFMETHODs on? 21:27:38 you need a list? 21:27:57 It can be a vector too. 21:27:58 what will you do with it? 21:28:01 ,rinshot 21:28:02 will a method of checking whether you can specialize suffice? 21:29:08 -!- diadara__ [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has quit [Client Quit] 21:29:17 diadara [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has joined #lisp 21:29:19 -!- eeezkil [~eeezkil@unaffiliated/eeezkil] has quit [Quit: ^D] 21:29:57 right now i want to specialize on lists, but wasn't sure if i should specialize on 'cons or 'list 21:30:03 robot-beethoven: (let ((r '())) (do-external-symbols (gf "CL" r) (when (and (fboundp gf) (typep (symbol-function gf) 'generic-function)) (push gf r)))) 21:30:06 -!- rk[imposter] [~rkimposte@stallman.cse.ohio-state.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:30:22 -!- ccrouch_ [~ccrouch@70.114.210.142] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:30:26 clhs cons 21:30:26 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_cons.htm 21:30:28 clhs cons/t 21:30:28 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/t_cons.htm 21:30:41 ccrouch_ [~ccrouch@70.114.210.142] has joined #lisp 21:30:44 Yes, just check clhs on the type to see if it has a class you can use. 21:30:47 robot-beethoven: if it says "System Class CONS", you can specialize 21:30:47 robot-beethoven: you can specialize on it if it's a class, which should be obvious from the clhs entry 21:31:28 clhs null/t 21:31:28 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/t_null.htm 21:31:33 travisr [~travisrod@17.223.151.202] has joined #lisp 21:32:07 -!- MusangKing [~CatMtKing@ed-uluka.dyn.ucr.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:32:15 -!- prxq_ [~mommer@mnhm-5f75eddf.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:32:20 CatMtKing [~CatMtKing@ed-uluka.dyn.ucr.edu] has joined #lisp 21:32:55 jerryzhou [~jerryzhou@58.245.253.218] has joined #lisp 21:33:05 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:35:03 diadara_ [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has joined #lisp 21:35:04 so you can also specialize on "System Class LIST"? 21:35:06 -!- diadara [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 21:35:28 yes, whatever has "Class" in it 21:35:33 and not type 21:35:35 -!- Okasu [~1@unaffiliated/okasu] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:35:41 clhs unsigned-byte 21:35:41 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/t_unsgn_.htm 21:35:56 can't specialize on that 21:36:23 -!- ccrouch_ [~ccrouch@70.114.210.142] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:36:24 -!- jlongster [~user@pool-173-53-114-190.rcmdva.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 21:36:40 ccrouch_ [~ccrouch@70.114.210.142] has joined #lisp 21:36:55 so here I get the error "invalid number of arguments: 1" http://paste.lisp.org/submit 21:37:02 oops, : http://paste.lisp.org/display/138690 21:37:22 which is very odd? 21:37:43 &rest 21:37:56 you did not import it 21:37:58 hence two arguments required 21:38:02 ahh. really? what the heck 21:38:14 well it's just a symbol. 21:38:49 oh, I just need to import it where I'm defining the function 21:38:58 got it, initially I thought you meant in the place I'm calling it 21:39:00 or just use cl:&rest if you want 21:39:32 -!- cdidd [~cdidd@128-68-18-47.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 21:39:49 cdidd [~cdidd@128-68-19-30.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 21:39:50 CONS is a child of LIST in the type hierarchy? 21:39:58 it makes sense now 21:40:12 trebor_home [~email@dslb-178-004-067-216.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 21:40:19 -!- fortitude [~mts@rrcs-24-97-165-124.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:40:31 robot-beethoven: cons is a subtype of list, after all 21:41:33 is there a good tree-diagram of these types anywhere? 21:41:40 -!- segv- [~mb@95-91-242-152-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:42:38 http://sellout.github.io/media/CL-type-hierarchy.png 21:43:48 -!- ccrouch_ [~ccrouch@70.114.210.142] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:44:02 the map i've always wanted -- thanks! 21:44:25 Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has joined #lisp 21:45:02 why are some types (like UNSIGNED-BYTE) not also classes? 21:45:40 -!- travisr [~travisrod@17.223.151.202] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:45:47 well, that one takes a parameter 21:45:50 -!- LiamH [~none@aes048148.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:45:58 travisr [~travisrod@17.223.151.202] has joined #lisp 21:46:07 unsigned-byte is the same as (integer 0), how will you represent such a type? 21:46:27 such a type as a class 21:48:22 eh, i think i need to study CL classes (and possibly MOP) more. 21:51:31 -!- diadara_ [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:51:33 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p5B298EC3.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:51:47 diadara_ [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has joined #lisp 21:53:57 robot-beethoven: that would be problematic for many reasons 21:54:25 Types are very abstract, classes in CL are more "tangible" - I really don't know how to express it. 21:55:00 Any value with any representation can have a huge number of types simultaneously, but CLOS essentially dispatches on representations 21:55:13 except when it doesn't, like list 21:55:14 Not on into what potential sets of values something could belong 21:55:37 Well, there are a few rare examples. 21:55:52 just thought i should mention it given it's the original motivation 21:56:26 But it's easier to dispatch on "X belongs to class Y" (whose members all have a peculiar bit pattern in the header" than "X is a prime" or something like that 21:57:48 trivially, in CL something can be any number of types, and they have no relationship, so dispatch would be at best horribly slow, at worst ambiguous and impossible 21:58:03 or rather, something can _be_ any number of types 21:58:22 er, i typed that .. sigh 22:00:36 hello 22:01:59 sykopomp` [~sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 22:05:03 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:05:46 oGMo: For example, if you had a PRIMEP predicate, (deftype prime () '(satisfies primep)) would be an expensive type to dispatch on. 22:06:40 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@192-0-131-151.cpe.teksavvy.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 22:07:07 -!- ehu [ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:07:47 gleag: right, but a prime is also an integer, real, and probably odd, among other things 22:08:32 Well, yeah, I guess you'd technically need some linearization mechanism, but it's difficult to linearize an infinite number of types. 22:08:59 and really, there is no way to trivially tell the set of all types something belongs to without testing it against every type 22:09:13 Although perhaps not if the types are still countable, but I'm not sure about that. 22:12:09 -!- McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:12:53 chameco [~samuel@cpe-74-69-188-107.stny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:13:01 -!- arnsa [~arnsa@78-63-18-208.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 22:13:43 McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has joined #lisp 22:14:02 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@internet2.cznet.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:14:51 banjara [~Adium@unaffiliated/banjara] has joined #lisp 22:15:14 arnsa [~arnsa@78-63-18-208.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 22:15:34 -!- arnsa [~arnsa@78-63-18-208.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Client Quit] 22:15:56 arnsa [~arnsa@78-63-18-208.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 22:18:51 -!- Aramur_ [~arare@135.Red-79-148-14.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Aramur_] 22:19:10 Aramur [~arare@135.Red-79-148-14.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 22:21:08 -!- seangrov` [~user@c-69-181-197-122.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:21:33 nialo [~nialo@ool-44c53f01.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 22:22:12 jlongster [~user@pool-173-53-114-190.rcmdva.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:24:24 oGMo: only some primes are odd. 22:24:35 oGMo: some of them are outright weird! 22:24:40 :) 22:29:41 -!- statl [~statl@dslb-094-218-019-172.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 22:30:30 JuanDaugherty [~Ren@cpe-76-180-168-166.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:34:05 danlentz [~danlentz@c-68-37-70-235.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:34:22 -!- diadara_ [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 22:34:39 diadara_ [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has joined #lisp 22:35:11 -!- bitonic` [~user@xdsl-188-155-179-93.adslplus.ch] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:37:00 -!- arnsa [~arnsa@78-63-18-208.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:40:38 -!- ski [~md9slj@t-2020-07.studat.chalmers.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:41:05 seangrov` [~user@2600:1010:b01a:f33a:a4f7:8ba7:b723:395d] has joined #lisp 22:42:08 -!- diadara_ [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 22:42:58 -!- sykopomp` is now known as sykopomp 22:43:46 -!- Bike [~Glossina@wl-nat100.it.wsu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:44:35 -!- JuanDaugherty [~Ren@cpe-76-180-168-166.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:46:00 Karl_dscc [~localhost@p5B2B1A02.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 22:47:39 resttime [~rest@isr5192.urh.uiuc.edu] has joined #lisp 22:48:05 fenton [~fenton@ppp-124-121-40-10.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 22:49:15 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 22:55:58 danielszmulewicz [~danielszm@185.3.146.143] has joined #lisp 22:58:18 przl [~przlrkt@p5B298EC3.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 22:58:43 hiyosi [~skip_it@247.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has joined #lisp 23:00:10 -!- travisr [~travisrod@17.223.151.202] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:01:03 -!- didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:01:25 Bike [~Glossina@wl-nat100.it.wsu.edu] has joined #lisp 23:02:54 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p5B298EC3.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:07:14 -!- Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:07:56 -!- chameco [~samuel@cpe-74-69-188-107.stny.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:09:08 man #lisp sucks at the weekend, it seems. 23:09:08 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for #lisp sucks at the weekend, it seems.. 23:09:19 travisr [~travisrod@17.223.151.202] has joined #lisp 23:09:30 -!- Vivitron [~Vivitron@c-50-172-44-193.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:09:37 too busy with our fabulous vacations from high-paying jobs 23:09:46 Probably, damn lispers! 23:09:48 :) 23:09:57 the weekend just only started 23:10:09 It was just my last day 23:10:21 at Hewlett Packard, w00t. Starting a new Erlang job on Monday. 23:10:59 so you're all in Lisp positions? 23:12:14 *Xach* is in lisp positions 23:12:19 plural? 23:12:42 so many hats, so little time 23:12:46 indeed 23:12:54 What do you do ? 23:13:03 *stassats* is in a superposition 23:13:09 clever 23:14:13 AeroNotix: I hack lisp all day for Clozure's customers. 23:14:27 hack the good hack :) 23:14:34 I used to be an erlang dev! 23:14:38 sykopomp: woot 23:14:41 where at? 23:14:50 a tiny startup in florida 23:15:00 How'd it turn out? 23:15:08 I don't work there anymore. : D 23:15:09 This'll be my first Erlang position 23:15:54 I do JavaScript now. I wrote my Erlang and I write my JavaScript like I wrote my Lisp. People are like "hey awesome" but any time I mention Lisp they look at me like I just ate their firstborn. 23:16:16 How can you write Erlang as if it were Lisp? 23:16:22 AeroNotix: Erlang's fun, and it's a fantastic language for thinking about your application at the architecture level. 23:16:35 Indeed it is. 23:16:47 AeroNotix: well, there's a nice mode for emacs that lets you have SLIME-like functionality with Erlang 23:16:52 distel 23:16:54 yes 23:16:55 yes 23:17:05 I have written Erlang before, it's not like I'm taking this position with zero Erlang experience :) 23:17:17 plenty of the stuff, in fact. 23:17:28 sykopomp: but does it have words of encouragement? 23:17:30 but by "writing it like Erlang", I mean that I like working in layers of (hopefully reasonable) abstractions as opposed to sticking to language formulass. 23:17:42 sykopomp: you could say that about many languages. 23:18:00 Abstraction is the key to writing good programs. 23:18:12 stassats: I don't remember. It's writted by Luke Gorrie, though... 23:18:42 "Take this message, brother, and may it serve you well." 23:18:52 written sykopomp 23:18:53 AeroNotix: by "abstraction" I mean I at one time implemented a mini-class thing in Erlang to compensate for it not having dynamic dispatch (usually these things are done by spawning processes and handling messages, but this case was different) 23:19:02 written* 23:19:32 What's the conceptual difference between dynamic dispatch and a pid pattern matching on messages? 23:19:36 not wrotteden? 23:19:51 AeroNotix: synchronicity, having to set up supervision trees 23:20:02 sykopomp: you do not have to set up supervision trees at all 23:20:15 My point is that Erlang is more object oriented than people give it credit for. 23:20:17 AeroNotix: you don't want to have processes dangling around willy-nilly! 23:20:22 that would be obscene. 23:20:28 cover yourself up 23:20:28 It fits Alan Kay's notion of OOP very well 23:20:34 yes, I know 23:20:40 this was just one particular case. 23:21:14 there are many performance sesitive times where you wouldn't be using a supervision tree. 23:21:21 one nice thing about working with Erlang is that it's one of the few languages I've worked with that allows CL-style workbench development. 23:21:32 too much erlang in #lisp 23:21:50 the code reload features are excellent 23:21:53 stassats: I'm trying to bring it back! This is totally relevant to #lisp interests, or so I thought. I'll drop it, though. 23:22:00 relups are extra terrestrial 23:22:09 dunk [uid16@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-hzckxrqvukbpjxta] has joined #lisp 23:22:12 stassats: how about EFL? 23:22:16 that's lispy 23:22:24 or LFE 23:22:26 actually :P 23:22:28 you mean LFE? 23:22:32 yeah^ 23:22:32 LFE is terrible 23:22:39 calling it a lisp seems like a bad joke. 23:22:40 well, it got some bastardized lisp 23:22:46 lispy is what I said 23:23:01 it looks like someone spent 10 minutes writing an erlang preprocessor that parsed parentheses and patted themselves on the back with a nice haw haw. 23:23:09 -!- __stdout [~Nico@p549F69EC.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: __stdout] 23:23:14 Personally I've not used it 23:23:18 -!- jlongster [~user@pool-173-53-114-190.rcmdva.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:23:21 you're better off for it. 23:23:25 Does it have lets? 23:23:46 I don't remember. I ran away too quickly. 23:24:11 *sykopomp* finds himself missing Lisp no matter what language he writes. 23:24:20 I really wish Erlang had some way to introduce a new scope and able to shadow bindings 23:24:22 You'd figure people would actually care about being able to develop interactively in this day and age. 23:24:32 -!- Karl_dscc [~localhost@p5B2B1A02.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:24:48 I asked nodejs people if there was any efforts into making node modules reloadable (at least), and I just got a bunch of abuse thrown at me. 23:24:53 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@216.113.168.141] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:25:22 I refuse to believe nodejs is not just a big joke on me 23:25:28 AeroNotix: (LET ((x 1)) ...) is just ((lambda (x) ...) 1) 23:25:46 and erlang has fun() 23:25:47 so do the math 23:25:54 sykopomp: go try it :) 23:26:23 yeah, fun has funky shadowing properties 23:26:24 -!- arare [~Aramur@153.68.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Quit: arare] 23:27:08 it also knocks the flow of control using a function 23:27:12 but seriously we got away with OT long enough. Send me a /q if you want to keep chatting, although i have other stuff to do. 23:27:21 sure 23:27:26 lisp has parenthesis 23:27:49 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-158-9.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 23:28:10 just one parenthesis. to share. 23:29:12 I'm moving to a different city - they have a programming group called the "Lambda loung" 23:29:14 lounge* 23:29:31 Some Lispers etc 23:30:08 -!- smazga [~acrid@64.55.45.194] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.3.4] 23:30:40 are you ending up in the sunnyvale/SF area, then? 23:30:52 Lol no 23:30:54 I live in POland 23:30:59 ah 23:31:27 Krakow, specifically I'm moving to 23:31:38 I'm not Polish though. I feel the need to point that out. 23:32:02 phew, and there i thought you were! 23:32:41 I hope you didn't accuse me there stassats :) 23:33:44 fuck 23:33:54 I just saw on the meetup board that "Clojure is a common lisp dialect" 23:33:59 *twitch* 23:34:27 worse than being mistaken for a polack 23:34:32 I know right!?! 23:34:42 I'll go and set this damn Polack right 23:38:27 AeroNotix: Is there a chance of you ever geting polished? :) 23:38:39 absolutely not 23:39:30 -!- danielszmulewicz [~danielszm@185.3.146.143] has quit [Quit: danielszmulewicz] 23:40:50 AeroNotix: If you're not polished, what are you doing in Poland? 23:41:02 chameco [~samuel@cpe-74-69-188-107.stny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:41:09 gleag: my pre-wife is Polish 23:41:15 and Erlang, apparently. 23:41:16 -!- tiksa [~tiksa@109-92-2-90.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:41:37 Your wife is Polish and Erlang? 23:41:55 These mixed marriages... 23:42:03 :) 23:42:30 We have a couple of communication issues, but it works out in the end. 23:42:54 Polish isn't difficult. 23:43:37 Ja mow po polsku 23:43:39 a ty? 23:43:56 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-185-168-200.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:43:57 AeroNotix: Ja jsem Cech jak poleno. 23:43:58 only in lisp 23:44:06 Mieszkam w Wroclawiu na piec lat 23:44:24 There's a Polish guy who wrote a nice learning SW in Delphi. 23:44:28 can we get back to lisp or english? 23:44:40 Once I understand the algorithm, I'd like to make a CL package for it. 23:44:45 sure, lisp has parenthesis 23:44:54 It ought to be pretty generic for any information items. 23:45:22 Lisp in Poland is just non-existant 23:45:44 it's weird. You actually find new user-facing software being written in C++ still 23:45:51 but lisp 23:45:54 That's weird, there are 7e7 Poles around or so. 23:46:09 probably 23:46:34 lisp is not that good for user-facing software, to be honest 23:46:43 I know at least half a dozen Lispers here in .cz, so by means of extrapolation, there ought to be at least some Poles doing it. 23:46:49 stassats: I've only recently managed to get Lisp to 'stick' so I'll take your word for it 23:46:49 stassats: why? 23:47:02 I was under the impression that it was very easy to get a nice binary out of it. 23:47:26 gleag: because lisp people apparently don't care about such things 23:47:44 I care about such things - how's CommonQt? 23:47:48 Since users can't tell in what language an application written, it shouldn't matter to them what's under the hood. 23:47:55 Unless it's overly bloated. 23:47:57 non-free options may be better, like lispworks 23:48:14 Can I use .ui files with commonqt? 23:48:32 there's no provisions for ui files in commonqt 23:48:36 :( 23:48:57 only what qt provides 23:49:12 I suppose it's a SMOP with it though, they're usually preprocessed into the target language code anyway 23:49:22 AeroNotix: Wouldn't a converter be batter? 23:49:33 What kind of batter? 23:50:00 gleag: that's what I'm talking about - a .ui -> .lisp converter 23:50:10 That's usually how I use the .ui files. 23:50:16 Take a .ui file, convert to lisp, throw ui file forever? 23:50:39 gleag: no, keep the ui file, plenty of times I've moved between C++ Qt=>PyQt and back depending on the requirements 23:50:52 gleag: I'm asking if there's already a ui=>lisp converter, yeah? 23:50:59 there isn't 23:51:07 Might have found myself a project 23:51:11 not sure of the difficulty. 23:51:48 You have plenty of parser generators to choose from! :) 23:53:18 I was actually thinking of implementing it in Go, but I guess Lisp would be the better choice. 23:53:25 Does commonqt use CLOS? 23:53:30 I remember reading that it doesn't... 23:53:31 yes 23:53:33 ohhh ok 23:53:35 great that I'm wrong 23:53:37 :D 23:53:57 quick q 23:54:26 I need to change some stuff in a makefile which (ql:quickload :qt) is running. Are there any hooks into the Quickload build process or will I have to do it manually. 23:54:35 I assume that the quickload process will only invoke qmake once 23:54:53 anyone familiar with archlinux and yaourt? 23:55:15 when building packages it stops and says "Do you want to edit $BUILDFILE? Y/n" 23:55:16 there's no hooks 23:55:24 perhaps quickload could do stuff like that/ 23:55:26 ? 23:55:31 what kind of changes do you want? 23:55:40 stassats: change the binary it's invoking for qmake 23:55:47 archlinux (stupidly) symlinks it somewhere else 23:56:30 Maybe like an alist of environment variables (ql:quickload :package :environment '(("key" . "value"))) 23:57:28 Xach: what do you think of that? 23:57:55 i don't think it's worth it 23:57:59 perhaps not 23:58:12 it'd only be used for non-lisp compilation.