00:01:41 -!- ltbarcly_ [~textual@216.113.168.141] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:01:42 -!- autom8tr [autom8r@192.94.73.30] has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:07:06 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@173-228-44-92.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:09:33 -!- luke_ [~luke@178.122.156.119] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:11:16 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:11:47 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 00:12:38 -!- ebobby [~fms@38.99.41.92] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:12:54 -!- _veer [~veer@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:13:44 -!- Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:13:52 http://ideone.com/L93D2x 00:16:03 -!- Jaynes [~Haskell@65.217.157.106] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:16:13 Better? 00:17:26 _veer [~veer@pool-96-254-154-127.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:17:27 -!- 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245 seconds] 00:39:03 I kept abstractions unmixed, that was bad 00:39:08 -!- hugod [~user@bas1-montreal08-1279346953.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:39:08 -!- arare [~Aramur@153.68.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:39:12 Hopefully that's better ;) 00:43:34 -!- matko [~matko@ip82-139-123-169.lijbrandt.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:44:43 -!- optikalmouse [~omouse@69-165-245-60.cable.teksavvy.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:45:43 -!- foreignFunction [~niksaak@ip-4761.sunline.net.ua] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:48:51 pyx [~pyx@unaffiliated/pyx] has joined #lisp 00:49:03 -!- pyx [~pyx@unaffiliated/pyx] has quit [Client Quit] 00:52:53 -!- ejohnson [~Thunderbi@c-67-181-201-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:54:06 -!- bitonic` [~user@cpe-68-173-125-35.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:55:03 jrajav [~jrajav@66-188-183-116.dhcp.roch.mn.charter.com] 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seconds] 06:26:12 -!- ampersand27017 [~ampersand@76.91.115.14] has quit [Quit: ampersand27017] 06:29:21 nydel [~nydel@ip72-197-245-1.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 06:31:01 i'm having a problem with packages. i wrote something as a package, and i want to simply use it without doing (in-package) but it has an error i can't explain that way. 06:31:24 jdz [~jdz@85.254.212.34] has joined #lisp 06:31:29 here is the source followed by the error re-created http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/6016635/ 06:32:28 any help greatly appreciated, for the life of me i cannot tell why it works the one way but not the other. 06:33:08 -!- alama [~jessealam@HSI-KBW-095-208-248-114.hsi5.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/] 06:34:11 nydel: the symbols in date-time, that is '(second minute hour date month year), are in your cl-date/time package 06:34:42 nydel: in cl-user you pass '(cl-user::year cl-user::month ... etc) which are different symbols 06:35:51 -!- jerryzhou [~xiaotaota@58.245.253.218] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:36:48 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 06:37:42 Bike: ohhh right! i do see what you're saying. however an obvious fix is not coming to mind 06:38:26 am i so far-stupid on this that i should just f off & read on packaged from the beginning? or is there something i'm overlooking that's easy to overlook when new at this 06:38:57 =~ s/packaged/packages/g 06:40:34 -!- namtsui [~user@c-76-21-121-73.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:40:56 namtsui [~user@c-76-21-121-73.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:41:06 you could export the year etc. symbols 06:41:34 does that look just like functions, in the same list? 06:41:36 angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has joined #lisp 06:41:57 pnpuff [~l_250e@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 06:42:01 yep 06:42:10 defpackage only exports symbols, there are no functions, you see 06:42:33 ahhhh yes of course! there are no functions only symbols and lambda 06:42:44 -!- pnpuff [~l_250e@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has left #lisp 06:43:22 no, i mean specifically that packages are a symbol thing, there are no functions or variables involved with using, exporting, etc 06:44:30 for quick example -- say i want to export the symbol in date-time package "minute" -- it's not just as simple as adding ":minute" to the (:export ... ) list inside the package definition is it? 06:45:51 it's that simple 06:45:58 why wouldn't it be? 06:46:44 because if it is then i understand 06:46:57 common issue right there 06:47:11 i don't know how well you remember me by now Bike but you've probably explained 1k simple things like this to me by now 06:47:56 i just now added the symbols (made slightly more distinguished) to :export & it works exactly as intended. i appreciate your help so very much 06:48:07 glad to hear it 06:49:35 this is one of my first "everyday" personal packages hehe. i would /love/ to see some of yours! 06:49:55 don't have much, really 06:50:42 well i mean you likely don't write random-elt or append1 etc over and over 06:51:08 i have alexandria for that stuff, usually. 06:51:31 jerryzhou [~xiaotaota@58.245.253.218] has joined #lisp 06:51:52 right, i'm more the invent-the-octagonal-cylinder-and-use-it-in-place-of-the-wheel type than you probably 06:55:26 nydel: Why don't you just look at existing packages or projects on services like github. I suppose most of us have projects there 06:56:19 loke: that's good advice and i promise to take it. for this particular tool i wanted a tiny, minimal everyday package. 06:56:41 nycs [~nycs@rrcs-24-39-141-128.nyc.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 06:56:42 loke: i would love to see anything you have on git or elsewhere, if you'd be so kind as to share? 06:56:52 -!- `^_^v [~nycs@rrcs-24-39-141-128.nyc.biz.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:56:53 motionman [~motionman@210.195.224.156] has joined #lisp 06:56:53 -!- motionman [~motionman@210.195.224.156] has quit [Changing host] 06:56:53 motionman [~motionman@unaffiliated/motionman] has joined #lisp 06:57:18 nydel: well, my projects are mostly public: https://github.com/lokedhs?tab=repositories 06:58:32 -!- jerryzhou [~xiaotaota@58.245.253.218] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:00:08 -!- weie [~eie@softbank221078042071.bbtec.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 07:00:08 CrazyEddy [~unpausing@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 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[Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:47:03 diadara [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has joined #lisp 10:47:28 igotnole_ [~igotnoleg@97-122-60-232.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 10:48:14 -!- hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@94.137.2.102] has quit [Quit: hitecnologys] 10:48:59 -!- CrazyEddy [~unpausing@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Quit: .] 10:49:11 -!- igotnol__ [~igotnoleg@97-122-60-232.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:49:26 igotnol__ [~igotnoleg@97-122-60-232.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 10:50:49 namtsui [~user@c-76-21-121-73.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:51:22 igotno___ [~igotnoleg@97-122-60-232.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 10:51:59 CrazyEddy [~premuniti@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 10:52:07 -!- igotnole_ [~igotnoleg@97-122-60-232.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:53:13 AeroNotix [~aero@nat/hp/x-idtgbinjcurbpmed] has joined #lisp 10:53:25 igotnole_ [~igotnoleg@97-122-60-232.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 10:53:47 -!- igotnol__ [~igotnoleg@97-122-60-232.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 10:53:56 if I had a function which fetches a file/data blob from a remote file, would people prefer a vector of ints or a flexi-stream octets-to-string? 10:54:21 s/remote file/remote source 10:54:27 -!- diadara [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:54:48 diadara [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has joined #lisp 10:54:50 like what's the preference in that situation, a vector of ints seems like a more flexible option but has less information associated with it. 10:55:27 igotnol__ [~igotnoleg@97-122-60-232.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 10:55:33 -!- igotno___ [~igotnoleg@97-122-60-232.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 10:55:57 -!- ndrei [~avo@83.142.149.227] has quit [Quit: leaving] 10:56:10 ndrei [~avo@83.142.149.227] has joined #lisp 10:56:14 -!- ndrei [~avo@83.142.149.227] has quit [Client Quit] 10:56:35 -!- diadara [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has quit [Read 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#lisp 11:16:28 -!- igotnol__ [~igotnoleg@97-122-60-232.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:16:30 -!- nowhere_man [~pierre@5070B859.static.ziggozakelijk.nl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:17:36 igotnol__ [~igotnoleg@97-122-60-232.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 11:18:29 JuanDaugherty [~Ren@cpe-76-180-168-166.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 11:19:09 -!- igotnole_ [~igotnoleg@97-122-60-232.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:19:19 AeroNotix: a binary stream would be best, unless your function can also know/guess the encoding of the remote file 11:19:41 coreytrevor [~ma@95.211.186.115] has joined #lisp 11:19:42 ah, you're returning all the data, i'd say a vector of ints then 11:20:02 the caller of the function can always call octets-to-string themselves, it's hard to do the opposite (go from string to binary) 11:22:02 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:22:04 -!- igotnol__ 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[~igotnoleg@97-122-15-231.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:22:11 igotnole_ [~igotnoleg@97-122-15-231.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 12:23:26 -!- igotnol__ [~igotnoleg@97-122-15-231.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:23:56 BitPuffin [~quassel@c83-254-19-137.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 12:25:08 igotnol__ [~igotnoleg@97-122-15-231.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 12:25:26 -!- zacharias [~zacharias@unaffiliated/zacharias] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:26:14 Hydan [~Adium@ip-89-103-110-5.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 12:26:45 -!- igotnole_ [~igotnoleg@97-122-15-231.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:26:56 -!- Hydan [~Adium@ip-89-103-110-5.net.upcbroadband.cz] has left #lisp 12:27:10 igotnole_ [~igotnoleg@97-122-15-231.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 12:27:20 -!- walter [~walter@c-24-218-217-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 12:28:38 I was supposed to write CL-JSON, ST-JSON and YASON comparsion. I'm almost done. Is Markdown OK as text markup or I should rewrite everything to HTML? 12:28:54 s/comparsion/comparison/ 12:29:11 -!- igotnol__ [~igotnoleg@97-122-15-231.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:29:41 _d3f [~gnu@ip-static-94-242-252-66.as5577.net] has joined #lisp 12:30:03 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 12:30:11 igotnol__ [~igotnoleg@97-122-15-231.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 12:30:41 Hydan [~Adium@ip-89-103-110-5.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 12:31:23 -!- igotnole_ [~igotnoleg@97-122-15-231.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:31:49 lyanchih_ [~lyanchih@210.242.144.78] has joined #lisp 12:32:08 igotnole_ [~igotnoleg@97-122-15-231.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 12:33:10 DalekBaldwin [~Adium@ip68-4-133-159.oc.oc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 12:34:18 -!- igotnol__ [~igotnoleg@97-122-15-231.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:34:46 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 12:35:01 -!- lyanchih [~lyanchih@210.242.144.78] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:35:20 i would hope it will be html when you show it to the world, what it is generated from is irrelevant 12:36:14 segv-: good idea 12:36:16 -!- igotnole_ [~igotnoleg@97-122-15-231.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:36:17 I just thought that maybe someone wants to see sources. Whatever. 12:36:38 igotnole_ [~igotnoleg@97-122-15-231.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 12:36:41 -!- benkard [~benkard@2001:4ca0:0:f230:a958:146e:d67f:569] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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http://colloquy.mobi] 15:39:59 gr4nf [~gr4nf@190.86.177.25] has joined #lisp 15:42:56 -!- gr4nf [~gr4nf@190.86.177.25] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.1] 15:43:35 -!- arubin [~arubin@99-114-192-172.lightspeed.cicril.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 15:43:57 hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@94.137.2.102] has joined #lisp 15:44:35 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:46:07 -!- wild-inferiors [b2ff9001@gateway/web/freenode/ip.178.255.144.1] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 15:46:10 gr4nf [~gr4nf@190.86.177.25] has joined #lisp 15:46:49 -!- Kabaka [~Kabaka@botters/kabaka] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:48:15 can I make a macro which returns a syntactically incorrect form? 15:48:21 i.e. unbalanced parenthesis 15:48:29 that doesn't make any sense 15:48:34 -!- hugod [~user@bas1-montreal08-1279346953.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:48:45 AeroNotix: and you can't 15:48:47 syntax parsing happens way before macroexpansion 15:48:55 I see 15:48:56 reader macros, you can 15:48:59 AeroNotix: macros return lists, not text 15:49:09 aha, of course 15:49:12 makes sense 15:50:00 nowhere_man: my macro returns a symbol! 15:50:09 -!- ampersand27017 [~ampersand@h-69-3-174-99.lsan.ca.megapath.net] has quit [Quit: ampersand27017] 15:50:57 stassats: pardon my abusive generalization, macros return expressions 15:50:58 how often do you see reader macros in large codebases? 15:51:06 AeroNotix: there are no parenthesis in lisp! 15:51:22 AeroNotix: see http://informatimago.com/articles/usenet.html#Lisp-Paradoxes 15:51:32 AeroNotix: ( is a reader macro 15:51:34 nilsi [~nilsi@218.107.216.43] has joined #lisp 15:51:38 but you mean non-standard ones 15:51:46 Right 15:51:50 well, depends on the codebase and the sanity of its authors 15:52:01 in general, the less macros and reader macros, the better 15:52:08 I thought so 15:52:16 #\( is a reader macro that returns a list. Only there's no list in lisp either (see previous url). :-) 15:52:25 hugod [~user@bas1-montreal08-1279346953.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 15:52:48 -!- nilsi [~nilsi@218.107.216.43] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:53:08 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:53:09 Does anyone use a space cadet keyboard? 15:53:24 nilsi [~nilsi@101.95.4.234] has joined #lisp 15:54:13 doesn's LISP stand for LISt Processing? In other words, there's /literally/ a "list" in lisp. 15:54:24 gr4nf: clever 15:54:48 gr4nf: literally, there's only "lis" 15:54:58 Odin- [~sbkhh@erudite.anarchism.is] has joined #lisp 15:55:11 and lisp is a predicate 15:55:42 AeroNotix: one of the most used such reader macro is the SQL notation in CL-SQL 15:55:46 hah. bravo. 15:56:10 nowhere_man: nice, will have to check that out 15:56:12 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 15:56:33 nowhere_man: is /that/ how it works? 15:56:37 most used? i wouldn't have though that cl-sql is the most used piece of code 15:57:13 stassats: maybe the frequency of reader macros is higher in cl-sql, is what they meant? 15:57:45 (i just don't like cl-sql, and its reader macros) 15:57:54 postmodern is way nicer in that regard 15:58:07 postgresql? 15:59:44 gr4nf: nope. C is a good language for I/O because it has no I/O instructions. Lisp is a good language for lisp, because it has no list abstract data type. Any language good for X has no X in it. The counter example, is Pascal which is bad for I/O because it has writeln write and read 16:00:17 commonqt is using reader macros to overcome problems with case sensitivity and having to define everything at compile-time, (#_new QObject) is turned into ((LAMBDA () (OPTIMIZED-NEW "QObject"))) 16:00:37 and (#_size object) into ((LAMBDA () (OPTIMIZED-CALL T OBJECT "size"))) 16:00:47 ogamita: and perl is good for nothing because it has everything? 16:00:51 I'm very familiar with C++/Qt, what's the environment like compared to it? The whole QtDesigner thing is very seamless 16:01:14 environment? i just write everything by hand 16:01:26 even the definitions of the widgets? 16:01:33 everything 16:01:39 Sounds like a waste of time 16:01:44 can't you read in the .ui files? 16:01:46 surely 16:01:47 sounds like it works 16:01:55 well, working and waste of time are different 16:02:14 anyway, will sign on later 16:02:21 -!- AeroNotix [~aero@nat/hp/x-idtgbinjcurbpmed] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.1] 16:02:21 i like it that way, get off my lawn! 16:02:35 -!- zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:02:45 boogie [~boogie@wsip-98-172-168-236.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 16:03:02 mgile [~mgile@74-92-220-177-Colorado.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 16:04:14 Kabaka [~Kabaka@botters/kabaka] has joined #lisp 16:04:31 -!- wws-ubuntu [wws@clozure-844B95F5.dsl1.rtr.chat.fpma.frpt.net] has quit [Ping timeout] 16:05:34 -!- wws-ubuntu [~wws@p-74-209-23-19.dsl1.rtr.chat.fpma.frpt.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:05:53 anthracite [~user@pdpc/supporter/active/anthracite] has joined #lisp 16:07:22 -!- diadara [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:07:38 diadara [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has joined #lisp 16:07:56 -!- quasisane [~sanep@c-24-218-184-186.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:10:11 ISF__ [~ivan@143.106.196.228] has joined #lisp 16:10:26 -!- sellout- [~Adium@66.185.107.123] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:12:03 sellout- [~Adium@66.185.107.123] has joined #lisp 16:12:19 faust45 [~faust45@81.90.224.70] has joined #lisp 16:12:57 mathrick [~mathrick@94.144.63.84] has joined #lisp 16:13:10 -!- spacefrogg is now known as spacefrogg^ 16:14:15 -!- gr4nf [~gr4nf@190.86.177.25] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:16:27 quasisane [~sanep@c-24-218-184-186.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:16:54 -!- sellout- [~Adium@66.185.107.123] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:19:44 -!- mcsontos [mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-godxuwugmkdfwdmi] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:21:19 AeroNotix [~xeno@aboa20.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 16:21:24 ehaliewicz [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 16:22:42 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 16:26:19 -!- theos is now known as Guest24725 16:26:49 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 16:27:38 -!- Guest24725 [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:28:04 -!- ASau` is now known as ASau 16:29:39 sellout- [~Adium@c-67-176-62-45.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:30:28 mpstyler [~user@176.73.154.121] has joined #lisp 16:31:01 -!- benkard [~benkard@2001:4ca0:0:f240:c1ca:94aa:7077:2a06] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz] 16:33:01 gr4nf [~gr4nf@190.86.177.25] has joined #lisp 16:34:17 DalekBaldwin [~Adium@ip68-4-133-159.oc.oc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 16:38:37 -!- fridim__ [~fridim@bas2-montreal07-2925317871.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:38:54 -!- DalekBaldwin [~Adium@ip68-4-133-159.oc.oc.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 16:41:39 -!- faust45 [~faust45@81.90.224.70] has quit [Quit: faust45] 16:42:14 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:42:39 -!- MoALTz [~no@host86-137-70-230.range86-137.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:43:33 void64 [~luke@178.122.170.173] has joined #lisp 16:45:22 francogrex [~user@109.128.103.15] has joined #lisp 16:45:49 -!- Bike [~Glossina@wl-nat100.it.wsu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:47:19 askatasuna [~askatasun@190.18.152.144] has joined #lisp 16:49:16 klltkr [~klltkr@82.113.183.200] has joined #lisp 16:53:42 -!- lyanchih [~lyanchih@114-34-99-241.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Quit: lyanchih] 16:53:48 optikalmouse [~omouse@CPE602ad088890a-CM602ad0888907.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 16:55:56 Bike [~Glossina@wl-nat115.it.wsu.edu] has joined #lisp 16:57:17 ehu [ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 16:57:55 -!- seangrov` [~user@c-69-181-197-122.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:00:35 faust45 [~faust45@81.90.224.70] has joined #lisp 17:03:54 lindes [~user@c-67-161-87-117.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:04:02 gr4nf: yep! My theory is confirmed even by perl :-) 17:05:17 -!- Hydan [~Adium@ip-89-103-110-5.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:06:09 so, I'm thinking I'd like to have a function that returns an object... creating it on the first invocation, and returning the same object on subsequent invocations. Something like what one might do in C with a function-local static variable... what's the idiomatic way to do this in lisp? 17:06:12 (CL) 17:06:35 (or does one normally just use a defvar??) 17:06:37 load-time-value and closures 17:06:44 and special variables, yes 17:07:47 well load-time-value creates it at load time, even if you don't actually invoke the function, if that matters 17:08:14 Bike: you don't have to create the object itself with load-time-value 17:08:17 just store it there 17:08:32 that's ok, in my case... hmm, so looks like something like (defun foo () (load-time-value (generate-a-foo))) ?? 17:08:37 oh. yeah. 17:09:08 lindes: if generate-a-foo can be called at load-time, this will work fine 17:09:55 (where generate-a-foo is whatever form(s) I need...) ok, cool. I'm pretty sure that works for me, though I think I'm forgetting the precise semantics of load-time, so I'll want to double-check that. 17:12:50 lindes: if that's what you want. (you could also possibly make it read-only) 17:12:50 -!- Bike [~Glossina@wl-nat115.it.wsu.edu] has quit [Quit: Reconnecting] 17:13:03 Bike [~Glossina@wl-nat115.it.wsu.edu] has joined #lisp 17:15:05 Bike_ [~Glossina@wl-nat115.it.wsu.edu] has joined #lisp 17:15:36 -!- Bike [~Glossina@wl-nat115.it.wsu.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 17:16:07 ebobby [~fms@38.99.41.92] has joined #lisp 17:16:10 so, maybe I'm doing the wrong thing, here, I dunno. Here's what I'm actually trying to do: I want to make a call to cl-oauth:make-consumer-token, to generate a consumer token object... and... I could save it in a defvar, but I'm somehow under the (poor?) aesthetic idea that having there be a wrapper function to get my token only once is nicer... does that seem sane? 17:16:30 nope 17:16:45 ok... how would you recommend doing it? 17:16:56 a special variable 17:17:02 -!- nilsi [~nilsi@101.95.4.234] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:17:21 -!- Joreji [~thomas@77-23-110-134-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:17:21 ok. could you explain why, so I'll understand why I want it this way? 17:17:28 it's inspectable, bindable, changeable 17:17:29 nilsi [~nilsi@5.254.135.100] has joined #lisp 17:17:34 (and thus make better decisions in the future) 17:17:51 ahhhh.... binding overrides... yeah, ok. I'm sold. :) 17:18:25 -!- Bike_ is now known as Bike 17:18:45 doi la nilsi xu do se jbobau 17:19:21 thank you for setting me straight. 17:19:26 -!- faust45 [~faust45@81.90.224.70] has quit [Quit: faust45] 17:19:35 dlowe: esperanto ? 17:19:42 lojban 17:19:45 ah 17:19:56 too unintelligible for esperanto 17:20:26 it's the lisp of conlangs :) 17:24:28 antgreen [~green@173.206.83.249] has joined #lisp 17:24:36 ltbarcly [~textual@216.113.168.141] has joined #lisp 17:24:43 -!- bitonic` [~user@cpe-68-173-125-35.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:25:57 -!- nilsi [~nilsi@5.254.135.100] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:27:42 (seriously. predicate functions that take arguments, functions that return other functions, predicates as arguments) 17:28:03 -!- drmeiste_ [~drmeister@pool-71-185-168-200.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:31:45 -!- shridhar [Shridhar@nat/redhat/x-mbimludqwnjeaoqf] has quit [Quit: shridhar] 17:34:34 DalekBaldwin [~Adium@ip68-4-133-159.oc.oc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 17:35:26 lyanchih [~lyanchih@114-34-99-241.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 17:38:24 Fuh, I've just finished writing text. Need proofreading and correction: 94.137.2.102:8080 17:38:45 -!- DalekBaldwin [~Adium@ip68-4-133-159.oc.oc.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:38:50 Put it on my home server not for long. 17:38:58 -!- jewel [~jewel@105-236-76-4.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 17:39:16 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 17:39:27 Oh shit, I haven't set port forwarding. Wait a second. 17:39:58 Done, sorry. 17:40:33 -!- lyanchih [~lyanchih@114-34-99-241.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Quit: lyanchih] 17:40:45 nilsi [~nilsi@101.95.4.234] has joined #lisp 17:40:54 drmeiste_ [~drmeister@166.137.86.179] has joined #lisp 17:41:39 -!- nilsi [~nilsi@101.95.4.234] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:42:01 smazga [~acrid@64.55.45.194] has joined #lisp 17:42:09 nilsi [~nilsi@5.254.131.14] has joined #lisp 17:42:55 I haven't wrote any CSS styles yet but I'll do that when I fully finish with text. 17:46:03 -!- francogrex [~user@109.128.103.15] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 17:47:08 -!- nilsi [~nilsi@5.254.131.14] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:47:25 -!- spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:53:30 -!- ck`` [~ck@dslb-094-219-235-135.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:53:43 -!- gr4nf [~gr4nf@190.86.177.25] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.1] 17:56:06 this may sound like a strange question, but how do I get the first element of a vector in CL (which may have length 0, in which case I want nil) without checking its length? 17:56:19 faust45 [~faust45@92.49.221.102] has joined #lisp 17:56:41 fikusz: how do you propose to distinguish length 0 and other vectors without checking length, that's practically tautologically impossible 17:56:42 you know, like car for lists 17:56:50 fikusz: (first (coerce vector 'list)) 17:57:08 Easiest way. 17:57:26 well, ok, that works if you don't mind copying the entire vector for no reason, i guess 17:57:30 Bike: in most languages I wouldn't count the 10000000 elements of an array if I just want to process them in order 17:57:37 fikusz: checking for a zero length vector is fast enough I wouldn't worry about it 17:57:37 -!- Tristam [~Tristam@bodhilinux/team/Tristam] has quit [Quit: Some days you are the pigeon, other days the statue.] 17:57:49 fikusz: you have map for that! 17:57:49 hitecnologys: thanks, is this expensive? 17:57:59 fikusz: yes, it copies the entire array to a list. 17:58:00 fikusz: extremely 17:58:09 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:58:11 fikusz: Much more than checking the length of a vector. 17:58:21 (length vector) is fast. 17:58:22 Bike: ok, what if I use recursion? or want to stop processing the elements if I had enough :) 17:58:27 fikusz: (defun first-elt (vector) (if (zerop (length vector)) nil (aref vector 0))) 17:58:42 (and (array-in-bounds-p vector 0) (aref vector 0)) 17:59:01 fikusz: (map (lambda (elt) ... (when (processed-enough) (return ...))) ...) 17:59:09 stassats: thanks! that's what I wanted 17:59:12 (map nil ...) rather 17:59:22 (loop for elt across vector do (whatever)) wouldn't run if vector is #() and you can exit bu return if you want. 17:59:29 (loop for el across vector until (processed-enough) do ...) 17:59:30 -!- ogamita [~t@77.104.4.54] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:59:40 s/bu/by 18:01:48 thanks for all the suggestions, I'm going to go with array-in-bounds-p (since in this case I really only want the first element) 18:02:38 Tristam [~Tristam@bodhilinux/team/Tristam] has joined #lisp 18:03:20 seangrov` [~user@c-69-181-197-122.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:03:38 oh, question about "special variables"... is "special" just synonymous with "dynamic" (as in dynamic binding), or is there other "specialness" about them? When one refers to "a special variable", that just means a dynamic variable following the *star-naming-convention* ?? or is there more to it? (I'm reading up myself on http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/variables.html , and just trying to confirm my understanding) 18:03:45 -!- drmeiste_ [~drmeister@166.137.86.179] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:05:31 (or correct it, as needed) 18:05:39 -!- faust45 [~faust45@92.49.221.102] has quit [Quit: faust45] 18:06:02 drmeiste_ [~drmeister@166.137.86.179] has joined #lisp 18:06:38 "Special" means dynamic, asterisks are just convention. That's all. 18:07:20 You can write "special variable" and mean SOME-VAR. 18:07:52 -!- Bike [~Glossina@wl-nat115.it.wsu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 18:07:52 they're an important convention. You don't want to unknowingly bind a special variable and then wonder why your function isn't running correctly 18:08:31 Absolutely. 18:08:58 special variables also have global scope 18:09:06 Most compilers will warn you if you write such variables without asterisks. 18:09:12 ^W^W^W^Wcan have global scope 18:09:38 Sort of. 18:09:39 http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/d_specia.htm#special also sems relevant... 18:09:58 -!- robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:10:16 I don't think I grok to fullness, but I do think I get it... enough to probably be dangerous, somewhere down the road. ;) 18:11:08 lindes: what you wrote is for declarations. You can tell compiler that some var is dynamic binded by SPECIAL. This doesn't change the code directly. 18:11:09 fiveop [~fiveop@p54AF4C4F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 18:11:16 Bike [~Glossina@wl-nat115.it.wsu.edu] has joined #lisp 18:11:21 jlongster [~user@ip-64-134-44-140.public.wayport.net] has joined #lisp 18:11:56 zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has joined #lisp 18:12:03 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 18:12:32 s/by/with/ 18:12:47 s/dynamic/dynamically/ 18:13:51 hmm, I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "doesn't change the code directly"... ? 18:14:59 hitecnologys: meanwhile, on your json comparison... what level(s) of feedback are you looking for? 18:15:00 lindes: it affects how compiler treats what you wrote, compiler may not change anything. 18:15:41 lindes: mistakes, errors, anything you don't like. 18:16:08 -!- hiroakip [~hiroaki@77-20-192-229-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 18:18:01 randomly noticed typo-level error: there are a couple of points where you have "it's" where you mean a possessive, which thus ought to be "its" ... "manipulate it's data structures", and "for it's flexibility". (Other uses of "it's" are correct.) 18:18:21 -!- mpstyler [~user@176.73.154.121] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:19:30 Ah, yeah, I don't speak English much (my second language) so I usually make such mistakes often. 18:20:06 inconceivable! 18:20:15 minion: thwap to hitecnologys 18:20:15 hitecnologys: look at thwap: THWAP! http://www.angryflower.com/bobsqu.gif and http://www.angryflower.com/itsits.gif (see also: http://www.unmutual.info/misc/sb_itsits.mp3 ) 18:20:19 Aramur [~arare@213.Red-83-61-33.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 18:21:34 hitecnologys: all good. Now you know. :) Also, question about this line: "YASON supports plists as output as input type for objects" -- do you mean that plists are supported both as output and as an input type? If so, probably s/output as/output, and as an/ 18:21:36 -!- Bike [~Glossina@wl-nat115.it.wsu.edu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:22:04 Yeah, I meant that. 18:22:42 Bike [~Glossina@wl-nat115.it.wsu.edu] has joined #lisp 18:22:50 Sentence was different and when I changed it I forgot to add "and". Thanks. 18:23:15 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@72.53.108.73] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:23:34 minion: wow, that flower really does look angry. :-o 18:23:34 does torturing a poor bot with things beyond its comprehension please you? 18:23:37 lemoinem [~swoog@72.53.108.73] has joined #lisp 18:23:44 hitecnologys: You're welcome. :) 18:24:39 stassats: I suppose the flower comment is to you. :) 18:25:38 minion: do you like flowers? 18:25:39 here i am, brain the size of a planet, and all i do is answer your silly questions all day... maybe you have time to like flowers 18:26:31 -!- drmeiste_ [~drmeister@166.137.86.179] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:27:09 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:27:29 hitecnologys: otherwise, thank you for writing up that comparison. That may actually become useful to me in the very near future. :) 18:27:56 lindes: np, I had lot's of fun writing it. 18:28:35 hitecnologys: oh, one bigger-scale thought: You mention that st-json doesn't have all the cl-json features. Perhaps you could say more about what's missing? 18:28:52 Hm, ok. 18:29:03 (you talk about how the representations change, but not what's actually missing) 18:29:14 -!- coreytrevor [~ma@95.211.186.115] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:29:27 mrSpec [~Spec@LVelizy-156-46-58-26.w80-11.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 18:29:27 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@LVelizy-156-46-58-26.w80-11.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Changing host] 18:29:27 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 18:29:41 -!- AeroNotix [~xeno@aboa20.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:29:59 Yeah, looks like I just forgot this part somehow. =| 18:30:35 slyrus [~chatzilla@107.201.4.22] has joined #lisp 18:30:42 keltvek [~keltvek@unaffiliated/keltvek] has joined #lisp 18:30:45 hitecnologys: glad I could be helpful by reminding you. :) 18:30:56 hitecnologys: what about jsown? 18:31:36 Never heard about it. 18:32:02 Wait about and hour and I'll add it to comparison. 18:32:10 you can probably bother madnificent with questions about it 18:33:06 I once used SEXML and I really liked it. I hope jsown is cool too. 18:33:54 God dammit, I need to rerender half of my graphs now! 18:34:15 AeroNotix [~xeno@aboa20.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 18:34:46 ubikation [~quassel@c-67-168-252-238.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:34:57 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 18:34:57 DalekBaldwin [~Adium@ip68-4-133-159.oc.oc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 18:36:48 hitecnologys: good thing you automated that, right? (right??) ;) 18:37:13 -!- chu [~user@unaffiliated/chu] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:37:38 -!- klltkr [~klltkr@82.113.183.200] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:37:56 lindes: yep, I did. 18:38:28 -!- [ui] [~wp@99.130.104.157] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:39:50 -!- DalekBaldwin [~Adium@ip68-4-133-159.oc.oc.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:40:16 -!- lindes [~user@c-67-161-87-117.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:40:34 drmeiste_ [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has joined #lisp 18:41:05 lindes [~user@c-67-161-87-117.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:41:57 So how's stumpwm? 18:42:06 milanj [~milanj@82.117.199.26] has joined #lisp 18:42:28 good enough to have its own channel! 18:42:33 sorry :) 18:42:47 i mean, not that you can't ask about it here, just thought it'd point that out 18:43:02 sure, makes sense to :) 18:43:36 -!- askatasuna [~askatasun@190.18.152.144] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.1] 18:44:19 -!- Aramur [~arare@213.Red-83-61-33.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Aramur] 18:44:41 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:45:32 -!- didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 18:47:38 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 18:47:53 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:47:54 arare_ [~Aramur@153.68.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 18:48:40 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 18:48:53 -!- hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@94.137.2.102] has quit [Quit: hitecnologys] 18:50:38 -!- arare [~Aramur@153.68.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:51:22 hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@94.137.2.102] has joined #lisp 18:52:22 if I use quicklisp to load my libs (but not in my program logic) and do save-lisp-and-die to create an executable with sbcl, will quicklisp itself be included in the generated file? 18:52:37 sdemarre [~serge@91.180.89.7] has joined #lisp 18:52:52 everything available when you save-lisp-and-die will be in the image 18:53:01 (so yes) 18:54:19 Bike: so it just dumps the core / whatever's in there? 18:54:23 That's what you were supposed to do right after you installed quicklisp. 18:54:34 fikusz: yep 18:54:47 It dumps the memory basically. 18:55:43 ok, so in theory if I read a file and save it as a parameter it's included in the executable as well? 18:55:57 Yep. 18:56:27 fikusz: If you mean that you bind the contents of the file to a special variable defined with defparameter, then yes. 18:56:37 I'm not sure how garbage collection works in sbcl, but isn't the current garbage included as well? 18:56:53 usually, saving an image involve collecting garbage. 18:57:00 There's no point in saving garbage, 18:57:12 fikusz: yeah it does a full gc before a save 18:57:16 And sbcl does that so brutally, that it's not even able to go on after saving an image! 18:57:19 -!- arare_ [~Aramur@153.68.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has left #lisp 18:57:22 pjb: sure, I was just curious how it's done 18:57:38 arare [~Aramur@153.68.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 18:57:39 #+sbcl sb-ext:save-image-and-die vs. #+clisp ext:saveinitmem and go on working. 18:59:09 can loaded packages get out of scope and be garbage collected? 19:00:06 -!- jlongster [~user@ip-64-134-44-140.public.wayport.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:00:11 They have global scope. 19:00:19 for example if I have a huge macro library, I probably wouldn't need it at runtime 19:00:35 So not as long as you don't delete-package them. 19:01:29 pjb: ok, but for example if I wanted to get rid of quicklisp in my executable, I could just delete-package it after it loaded up everything I need? 19:01:31 After you delete package it may not be garbage collected. Better map and make all symbols unbound. 19:02:57 I love that packages are also first-class in CL (well they can't be anonymous I guess, but that would defeat the purpose anyway) 19:03:11 There's function to map across symbols in package but I forgot its name. 19:03:15 -!- Bike [~Glossina@wl-nat115.it.wsu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:03:29 Hydan [~Adium@ip-89-103-110-5.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 19:03:31 -!- AeroNotix [~xeno@aboa20.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: Uploading hax.....] 19:03:35 (defun f () (ql:quickload :f) (funcall (intern "MAIN" "F"))) 19:03:57 That would prevent collecting ql even if you (delete-package :ql) 19:03:57 AeroNotix [~xeno@aboa20.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 19:05:43 pjb: I don't really know what intern-ing does, does it integrate (build a reference) to a function in a package? 19:07:32 Bike [~Glossina@wl-nat100.it.wsu.edu] has joined #lisp 19:08:02 fikusz: it "imports" symbol. 19:08:10 Teratogen [leontopod@unaffiliated/teratogen] has joined #lisp 19:08:21 jlongster [~user@pool-72-84-229-181.rcmdva.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:08:46 hitecnologys: so you can use it in the current package without qualifying the originator package? 19:09:11 fikusz: right. 19:09:24 hitecnologys: what about all the stuff it's using from the originator package? 19:11:01 hitecnologys: I mean if I intern a function, what do I get in my package? 19:11:59 fikusz: when you intern you just make symbols persist in your package. You intern symbol, not function. 19:12:22 not in your package, in the package you intern into 19:12:39 Yeah, I meant that. 19:12:56 but it doesn't make sense to use intern there, find-symbol will do a better job 19:13:33 hitecnologys: ok, so at the end you have a reference to to something in the originator package, but the reference itself will be local (so if I redefine a function in the originator package, my "reference" will point to the new version as well) 19:14:23 fikusz: right. 19:14:34 hitecnologys: thanks 19:14:36 The same symbol means the same. 19:15:01 And functions and all the stuff stands behind them. That's what symbolic computation basically about. 19:15:20 hitecnologys: why is the encoding benchmark with 0 ms? it's a worthless benchmark if it doesn't show anything 19:15:30 why don't you increase the size or run it many times? 19:15:49 I tried, still too fast to measure it properly. 19:15:55 it can't be 19:16:00 hitecnologys: I think I get it, thanks again 19:16:16 fikusz: np 19:16:22 they can't all have the exactly same performance 19:16:31 if you can't measure, then you're using the wrong inputs 19:16:51 I can just output result of 100 runs together without division by number of runs (not average value). 19:17:06 Average value is too small. 19:17:20 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:17:36 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 19:17:53 the decoder speed doesn't tell anything useful either, what is it decoding? 19:18:01 and i expect different types of data to affect performance differently 19:18:19 integers vs floats, vs objects, vs lists 19:19:38 There's problem with measuring speed of decoding small amount of data: it's just too fast. I have file with 20k lines with different types of data together. 19:19:54 I can split and make separate test for each type. 19:20:09 if it's too fast, run it twice, thrice, however many times it takes 19:20:35 The problem is that it runs faster internal tick. 19:20:49 Ah. 19:20:50 nobody cares for milliseconds 19:20:52 And be sure everything is in caches so it goes even faster. 19:20:55 I'm idiot. 19:21:05 what people care about is relative performance 19:21:55 I can run 1k times and then measure, that's what you meant? 19:22:45 run as many times as needed to demonstrate relative performance 19:23:40 Got it. 19:23:45 milliseconds on your CPU are of no interest 19:23:53 Run as many times as I need to see the difference. 19:24:21 Did I get it right now? 19:24:23 you can also use the number of instructions 19:24:30 Hm. 19:24:46 and somebody should totally write a fast json library 19:24:56 How can I get that kind of information? Decompile and count? 19:25:18 should I use #' on lambda expressions when using them with funcall? 19:25:19 -!- _d3f [~gnu@ip-static-94-242-252-66.as5577.net] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.1] 19:25:29 i meant the number of cycles 19:25:37 fikusz: There's a macro to do that. 19:25:47 strangely, it's named lambda 19:25:47 fikusz: you don't have to 19:25:58 Ah, cycles. 19:26:16 pjb: I've noticed it works without the #' 19:26:18 Using cycles sounds like a reasonable idea. 19:26:40 pjb: does that macro run automagically on all my code? 19:26:56 fikusz: try: (macroexpand '(lambda () nil)) 19:26:58 What is the name of function in sbcl to get that number? Parsing TIME output? 19:27:03 usually it will tell you the same story as timing 19:27:20 another interesting metric would be the amount of consing 19:27:20 But number of cycles won't change. 19:27:32 relative to what? 19:27:39 Relative to time. 19:27:40 fikusz: read chapter 3 of clhs. 19:28:17 what do you mean? if the time increases, the number of cycles will too 19:28:27 pjb: oh, and here I thought lambda was not a macro... 19:28:38 scheduling and other things aside 19:28:50 I mean time can be different but number of cycles is always the same because instructions doesn't change much. 19:29:14 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:29:31 _d3f [~gnu@ip-static-94-242-252-66.as5577.net] has joined #lisp 19:29:32 So, how can I get amount of consing and cycles count? 19:29:50 -!- ubikation [~quassel@c-67-168-252-238.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:30:00 well, the number of cycles is what allows timing to change, or why is my 2GHz sandy bridge faster than a 3 GHZ p4? 19:30:37 Time also depends on scheduler and stuff. 19:30:43 pjb: thanks for the clarification, I'm used to lisp-1s :) 19:31:08 run it on an unloaded system, several times, throw off spikes, compute averages 19:31:19 or whatever they teach in school 19:31:25 That's exactly what I do. 19:31:53 so, then it won't matter much what you use, cycles or seconds 19:32:14 Cycles just sound more natural to me. 19:32:21 Whatever. 19:33:20 It's 2:33 AM, I need to get some sleep. 19:33:43 Goodbye everyone. 19:34:10 -!- hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@94.137.2.102] has quit [Quit: zzzz...] 19:35:42 eeezkil [d5e23f3b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.213.226.63.59] has joined #lisp 19:36:08 -!- sellout- [~Adium@c-67-176-62-45.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:37:06 I've written a bit of code to parse the output of xev from a pipe and only print the key names of the keypress events: http://pastebin.com/0UbzuTXb 19:37:31 could I get a bit of feedback please? (I'm not used to CL) 19:37:38 Interesting. 19:38:27 Perhaps you'd want to use sb-ext:run-program to fork xev and read from its stdout directly? 19:39:00 pjb: I'm running xev as a different user on a different machine ;) 19:39:08 Ah! Good. 19:39:59 pjb: also I wanted to create a relatively small executable, so the other user doesn't need to install / configure sbcl 19:40:22 that's why I asked about getting rid of unused libs 19:40:58 but I guess sbcl core is what keeps things relatively big 19:41:11 11MB isn't bad though 19:41:19 -!- froggey [~froggey@unaffiliated/froggey] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:42:19 what I'm really not sure about is the "return-from main" part 19:42:30 is it idiomatic? 19:42:31 Ok, one problem is that it quits on end of data on the pipe. 19:43:21 pjb: it doesn't for me: read-line is blocking until the other program on the other end of the pipe (mkfifo) is there 19:43:34 <_schulte_> fikusz: you could write a script with #!/usr/bin/sbcl, e.g., http://sprunge.us/eRFH 19:44:00 Right, my mistake, mknod does't erase a file to make the pipe :-/ 19:44:05 Works nicely. 19:44:57 -!- namtsui [~user@c-76-21-121-73.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:45:22 _schulte_: thanks, but I don't want to force the other user to install sbcl (he kinda does by running this, but it's self-contained) 19:45:25 fikusz: instead of using open, in general you should rather use with-open-file. 19:45:54 So you don't have to bother with closing it, the macro does it in all cases. 19:46:29 pjb: how would I quit on eof then? would I wrap it around a named block and return-from there? 19:47:04 ubikation [~quassel@ip-64-134-132-133.public.wayport.net] has joined #lisp 19:47:06 hiroakip [~hiroaki@77-20-192-229-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 19:47:09 Yes, just return-from. 19:47:51 namtsui [~user@c-76-21-121-73.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:48:29 froggey [~froggey@unaffiliated/froggey] has joined #lisp 19:48:32 pjb: wait, if I don't change the code (I mean leave "return-from main" as it is now) and have the with-open-file inside main, would it still close the file? 19:52:48 yes. 19:53:47 And that'd be the problem with original code, if you didn't exit right away, that in case of non-local exit outside of your eof case, the file wouldn't be closed. with-open-file expands to a unwind-protect form that ensures the file is closed. 19:54:01 oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-179-149.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 19:55:08 I see: is unwind protect some kind of magic? could I implement something like this myself? 19:56:06 If you used two regexp, it would be more efficient, since you wouldn't have to concatenate the lines, and search again in them. First match "^([^ ]+) " save a boolean that's true when it matches to KeyPress and when that boolean is true, match the lines for keysym. When you find a keysym you can reset the boolean to skip immediately to the next KeyPress. 19:56:35 -!- Shinmera [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has quit [Quit: brb] 19:57:20 fikusz: unwind-protect is a special operator. It would come down to re-implementing lisp to do it yourself. Even metalinguistically, it would be rather hard to do it: you'd have to implement all the forms such as catch/throw, block/return-from, condition handling and signaling, etc. 19:58:26 -!- foreignFunction [~niksaak@ip-4761.sunline.net.ua] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:58:30 pjb: yeah, but I'd introduce new state (the boolean). I think the current approach is more functional / easier to debug and I'd prefer it if it's not too slow 19:59:38 pjb: I mean the basic entity I'm working with here is the event: if I wanted to extract additional things, I'd need several booleans to keep track of them 19:59:52 foreignFunction [~niksaak@ip-4761.sunline.net.ua] has joined #lisp 19:59:56 pjb: that's why I tried to capture the event as a whole 20:01:14 pjb: regarding unwind-protect: I thought it was something special, thanks for clarifying 20:03:29 Shinmera [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 20:04:03 Sure. It's just an old reflex; after all, the first "computer" I worked on had only 50 programming steps and 8 registers, and the next one only 1 KB of RAM :-) 20:04:53 fikusz: unwind-protect is often used in macro, so you don't use it often yourself, but you may, to ensure some cleanup is done however you exit the block. 20:05:56 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Ping timeout: 241 seconds] 20:07:48 pjb: I understand very well and I think CL offers amazing possibilities for optimizing code (I've been looking at disassemble output lately) which is missing from most newer dynamic languages 20:08:09 is there a function in common lisp like mapcar, which ignore when the shortest list ends and asumes the values there are 0 or should i write it myself? 20:08:10 pjb: and that's probably thanks to it's age 20:08:41 puchacz [~puchacz@46-65-36-47.zone16.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:08:52 hiroakip: no 20:08:58 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:09:33 hiroakip: but you can write (mapcar (lambda (a b) (+ (or a 0) (or b 0))) l1 l2) 20:09:50 that's not what hiroakip meant... 20:09:54 pjb: and how would that work when it stops the exuction? 20:10:08 i actually do have a function like this written somewhere 20:10:27 or you could write (defun zero-by-default (fun) (lambda (&rest args) (apply fun (mapcar (lambda (arg) (or arg 0)) args)))) and then: (mapcar (zero-by-default (function +)) l1 l2) 20:10:35 not great though 20:10:49 stassats: asked that it doesn't stop. 20:10:59 i mean somethin like (map-with-0-fill #'+ '(1 2 3 4 5) '(1 1 1))) --> (2 3 4 4 5) 20:11:54 Oh, right, my solution is wrong, since it stops. :-( 20:12:23 -!- lindes [~user@c-67-161-87-117.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:12:34 hm, ih guess i will write map-with0-fill myself, it isn't hard at all 20:14:03 (let ((x '(1 2 3 4 5))) (map-into (copy-seq x) #'+ x '(1 1 1))) => (2 3 4 4 5) 20:14:04 wws-ubuntu [~wws@p-74-209-23-19.dsl1.rtr.chat.fpma.frpt.net] has joined #lisp 20:14:07 -!- jangle [~jimmy1984@dsl-164.7-238.gtb.net] has quit [Quit: jangle] 20:14:12 but, better write your own 20:14:46 http://paste.lisp.org/+2YY8 here's the one i had. 20:15:10 o.k. i will write myself and have a look at yours afterwards :) 20:15:20 (lispers are great people :D) 20:15:36 could be better, i'm sure 20:15:40 i'd write "when list collect (car list) else collect default" as "collect (if list (car list) default)" 20:16:13 see, there you go! 20:16:42 but that's not the only thing i'd write differently 20:16:53 -!- lufu [~user@5.254.134.90] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:19:01 spacefrogg_ [~spacefrog@unaffiliated/spacefrogg] has joined #lisp 20:19:07 -!- spacefrogg_ is now known as spacefrogg 20:21:16 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@107.201.4.22] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:24:53 -!- joe9 [~user@ip70-179-153-227.fv.ks.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 20:25:21 Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 20:26:51 slyrus [~chatzilla@107.201.4.22] has joined #lisp 20:31:16 -!- alezost [~user@128-70-198-98.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:32:09 in PCL you write a filepath abstraction library, how much of that is truly required? Is the situation as what Seibel says or do you mostly not notice 20:32:29 no, it's a nightmare 20:32:50 For example developing for Linux/Windows/MacOSX? 20:33:06 A lot of the systems Lisp supports I haven't even heard of 20:33:18 yes, nobody uses tops or whatever anymroe. 20:33:19 more 20:33:28 so we have cl-fad and all. 20:33:45 ,df cl-daf 20:33:47 tut 20:33:50 ,df cl-fad 20:33:58 How to use the bot? 20:34:05 what the heck is ,df 20:34:08 just google it 20:34:22 I don't know I've seen people using something like ,df to get links to various pages 20:34:27 Bike: fsbot answers to df by giving the emacs help abou the function. 20:34:27 :P 20:34:40 But here, minion is king, not fsbot. 20:34:43 oh, well, it's not an emacs function as far as i know 20:34:45 ,df uppercase-region 20:34:54 fsbot is not here, AeroNotix 20:34:57 Oh ok 20:35:05 clhs string-upcase 20:35:05 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_stg_up.htm 20:36:09 victor_lowther [~victor.lo@adsl-99-104-104-108.dsl.aus2tx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:37:47 DalekBaldwin1 [~Adium@ip68-4-133-159.oc.oc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 20:38:32 minion: cl-fad 20:38:33 cl-fad: No definition was found in the first 5 lines of http://www.cliki.net/cl-fad 20:39:22 diadara_ [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has joined #lisp 20:39:25 -!- diadara [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 20:39:33 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:40:06 -!- ISF__ [~ivan@143.106.196.228] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:41:30 -!- foreignFunction [~niksaak@ip-4761.sunline.net.ua] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:41:46 foreignFunction [~niksaak@ip-4761.sunline.net.ua] has joined #lisp 20:42:09 sykopomp [~sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 20:45:12 -!- guther [guther@shell.bshellz.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20:45:58 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:46:07 another maplongcar (mapcar that doesn't stop) if anyone is interested: http://paste.lisp.org/display/138610 20:46:25 maybe a bit more scheme-y :) 20:46:28 Praise [~Fat@unaffiliated/praise] has joined #lisp 20:46:38 -!- davazp [~user@31.200.160.238] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:46:43 -!- Wukix [~user@173-228-55-74.static.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:47:54 -!- genkinodenki [~migrayn@dsl-vntbrasgw1-50dc7f-98.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:48:09 -!- Praise [~Fat@unaffiliated/praise] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:48:31 I'm new here, so I'm not sure if it is efficient and all 20:49:17 Praise [~Fat@unaffiliated/praise] has joined #lisp 20:49:21 -!- Praise [~Fat@unaffiliated/praise] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:50:14 Since you build the list locally, you can use nreverse on it instead of reverse. 20:50:44 pjb: thanks, I recalled something like that from On Lisp 20:51:26 guther [guther@shell.bshellz.net] has joined #lisp 20:53:14 -!- wws-ubuntu [wws@clozure-844B95F5.dsl1.rtr.chat.fpma.frpt.net] has quit [Ping timeout] 20:54:09 Praise [~Fat@unaffiliated/praise] has joined #lisp 20:54:20 -!- wws-ubuntu [~wws@p-74-209-23-19.dsl1.rtr.chat.fpma.frpt.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:55:29 nug700 [~nug700@174-26-128-84.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 20:56:47 -!- drmeiste_ [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:57:11 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 20:57:13 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:01:18 didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has joined #lisp 21:04:52 -!- Praise [~Fat@unaffiliated/praise] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:05:56 drmeiste_ [~drmeister@166.137.86.179] has joined #lisp 21:06:13 Praise [~Fat@unaffiliated/praise] has joined #lisp 21:06:16 -!- optikalmouse [~omouse@CPE602ad088890a-CM602ad0888907.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:06:21 travisrodman [~travisrod@17.115.44.77] has joined #lisp 21:09:34 mrcheeks [~user@CPE001839838ebe-CM001ac30d4784.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 21:11:13 sellout- [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:12:11 -!- Praise [~Fat@unaffiliated/praise] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:13:19 Praise [~Fat@unaffiliated/praise] has joined #lisp 21:15:00 Awesome!1! Based on this lovely blog post I updated my UM machine . The thing is blazing fast (in comparison ) now. Very, *very* cool. 21:15:25 Go Lisp! 21:15:51 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@107.201.4.22] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:16:10 -!- Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 21:17:58 -!- Praise [~Fat@unaffiliated/praise] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:18:04 ghast [~user@host110.190-227-171.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 21:18:43 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Disconnected by services] 21:18:55 attila_lendvai1 [~attila_le@254C472B.mobile.pool.telekom.hu] has joined #lisp 21:18:55 -!- attila_lendvai1 is now known as attila_lendvai 21:18:55 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@254C472B.mobile.pool.telekom.hu] has quit [Changing host] 21:18:55 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 21:19:15 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-180-111.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:19:47 -!- attila_lendvai 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