00:00:09 -!- Shinmera [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has quit [Quit: ZzZ] 00:02:26 -!- Bike [~Glossina@wl-nat100.it.wsu.edu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:02:39 Bike [~Glossina@wl-nat100.it.wsu.edu] has joined #lisp 00:03:04 -!- Guest71963 [~eugene@epogee.dhcp.lbnl.us] has quit [Quit: .] 00:06:17 eug_ [~eugene@epogee.dhcp.lbnl.us] has joined #lisp 00:06:49 Bike: just checked the source code for fset with command. it's really quite smart. O(log n) even for maps, it seems like 00:07:02 bike: it "shadows" the old values, if any, in the original structure 00:07:23 gotta go 00:07:24 -!- eug_ [~eugene@epogee.dhcp.lbnl.us] has quit [Client Quit] 00:13:59 Bike_ [~Glossina@gannon-wired-gw.resnet.wsu.edu] has joined #lisp 00:14:10 -!- Bike [~Glossina@wl-nat100.it.wsu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:15:17 sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 00:17:42 -!- Bike_ is now known as Bike 00:21:20 -!- Ryan_Burnside [~ryan@63-153-65-176.hlna.qwest.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:22:26 -!- boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:23:47 ampersand27017 [~ampersand@76.91.115.14] has joined #lisp 00:24:09 -!- Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:25:46 wbooze__ [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-165-235.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 00:26:14 -!- mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:26:48 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[~normanric@70.114.215.220] has joined #lisp 02:25:14 hi guys 02:27:13 persizzl [~twosizes@gateway/tor-sasl/persizzl] has joined #lisp 02:38:58 -!- petrounias [~petrounia@ppp-2-85-57-46.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:41:03 Bike_ [~Glossina@wl-nat100.it.wsu.edu] has joined #lisp 02:41:26 -!- joekarma [~joekarma@96.49.249.171] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:42:59 petrounias [~petrounia@ppp-2-85-57-46.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 02:43:50 -!- Bike [~Glossina@69.166.47.100] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:48:10 -!- Bike_ is now known as Bike 02:50:25 -!- agam_ [~agam@216.239.45.130] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 02:51:21 resttime [~rest@adsl-99-135-190-144.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:53:13 joekarma [~joekarma@184.151.231.83] has joined #lisp 02:54:30 -!- tolk [~user@host135.190-226-87.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:54:49 ikki [~ikki@201.165.170.26] has joined #lisp 02:55:02 -!- ikki 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pranavrc [~pranavrc@unaffiliated/pranavrc] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 04:14:24 How do you implement a new CL sequence type? 04:14:56 Logico [~Logico@187.75.12.202] has joined #lisp 04:15:12 or transform from one sequence type to another ? like list of characters to a string. 04:15:21 (defclass whatever (sequence) ...) in an implementation that supports it 04:15:27 (coerce list-of-chars 'string) 04:16:27 thanks, Bike. 04:16:34 You cannot do so in a portable fashion. 04:16:38 didn't know about coerce 04:18:32 hi guys 04:18:32 okay, so i.e. basically equivalent of overriding the sequence functions with generic ones, and the implementing them for each existing sequence type, assuming i'm planning to use those existing types as well. right? 04:19:07 -!- petrounias [~petrounia@ppp-2-85-57-46.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:19:07 i need to generate sequential values between two values that cycle backand forth. so for example 1 -> 10 -> 1 -> etc. 04:19:12 wahjava-: you could do that, yes. 04:19:24 Which you cannot do portably, since you may not override the standard sequence functions. 04:19:28 any tips on how to think about how to loop/calculate such a thing? 04:19:33 But you could shadow them for your own code. 04:19:35 well, i'm assuming wahjava- meant another package. 04:19:55 holycow: Do you know how many you need? 04:19:58 okay 04:20:08 thanks for confirming. 04:20:19 -!- _veer [~veer@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:20:19 wahjava-: some implementations, like abcl and sbcl, have the sequence functions genericized already, so you can do like i said. 04:20:35 Zhivago: infinite ideally i guess. i am trying to animate looping sequences of values 04:20:46 oh! 04:20:49 Then why not use a little state machine? 04:20:57 googling 04:21:20 thanks for the tip, researching 04:21:27 holycow: it just means a thing that varies between a few states. so you'd have a "1" state, that outputs a 1 and gives way to a "10" state, which in turn outputs a 10 and goes back to the "1" state. 04:22:00 oh, wait, just to make sure i am explaining correctly: 04:22:29 a looping sequence between 1 and 5 would be 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, 2, 3, 4 ... etc. 04:22:36 my notation was misleading above 04:23:07 Oh, well, you can do that with an fsm too, you'd just have a different state for "4 going up" and "4 going down". 04:23:09 So you need two pieces of state -- the current integer value and the direction you're moving. 04:23:23 Hopefully you can see how you can use an FSM to generate any repetitive sequence like that. 04:23:39 aha. awesome thx. reading. 04:23:58 You might find that implementing that with a stateful function (e.g., with lexical closure) is easy. 04:24:22 -!- ezakimak [~nick@72.250.219.55] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:24:26 also, a cutesy or terrible way to do it with lists: just loop on '#1=(1 2 3 4 5 4 3 2 . #1#) 04:24:31 petrounias [~petrounia@ppp-2-85-57-46.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 04:24:57 That's probably the most elegant solution if this problem doesn't become more general. 04:25:02 lol, wow. i had no idea i could do that 04:25:27 this is basically equivalent to the FSM, the "state" is the cons or whatever 04:27:37 -!- Logico [~Logico@187.75.12.202] has quit [Quit: Saindo] 04:30:00 ezakimak [~nick@72.250.219.55] has joined #lisp 04:32:14 -!- bananagram [~bot@c-76-30-158-226.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:36:16 Does READ-CHAR return a standard character '\n' for carriage return - or is it system dependent? 04:37:37 There is no such standard character. You may be thinking of #\newline. 04:40:30 chu [~user@unaffiliated/chu] has joined #lisp 04:40:38 -!- petrounias [~petrounia@ppp-2-85-57-46.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:43:07 I'm thinking in C - sorry. Yes, does Common Lisp READ-CHAR return #\newline at the end of line or does it return different things like combinations of \#newline, #\return, #\linefeed in the same way that you have LF on linux & OS X, CR+LF on Windows, 04:43:09 etc. 04:43:54 "or does it return different things like combinations of \#newline, #\return, #\linefeed on different systems in the same way that you have LF on linux & OS X, CR+LF on Windows etc. 04:44:03 hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@178.74.64.185] has joined #lisp 04:44:33 -!- joekarma [~joekarma@S010678cd8e7c19a0.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:44:40 petrounias [~petrounia@ppp-2-85-57-46.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 04:46:12 Corvidium [~cosman246@216.9.28.142] has joined #lisp 04:46:58 maxter [~maxter@sundownness.lullaby.volia.net] has joined #lisp 04:48:12 -!- maxter [~maxter@sundownness.lullaby.volia.net] has quit [Client Quit] 04:48:27 maxter [~maxter@sundownness.lullaby.volia.net] has joined #lisp 04:48:27 alezost [~user@128-70-198-98.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 04:52:08 joekarma [~joekarma@184.151.231.62] has joined #lisp 04:52:54 Greetings! 04:53:24 -!- ampersand27017 [~ampersand@76.91.115.14] has quit [Quit: ampersand27017] 04:53:32 -!- CADD|away [~CADD@12.227.104.109] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:55:39 ampersand27017 [~ampersand@76.91.115.14] has joined #lisp 04:58:39 -!- Corvidium [~cosman246@216.9.28.142] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:58:47 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-76-115-114-77.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:59:19 -!- petrounias [~petrounia@ppp-2-85-57-46.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:59:39 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-76-115-114-77.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:00:21 drmeiste_ I believe it depends on the OS in use 05:01:54 I did a read-char with SBCL on Windows on a text file and it gives me \return \newline at the end 05:02:57 best solution would probably to use read-line instead 05:04:43 petrounias [~petrounia@ppp-2-85-57-46.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 05:05:58 resttime: Thank you - I don't have sbcl on windows. I'm implementing READ-LINE, I wasn't sure if I was to handle the different cases in READ-LINE or convert #\return #\newline to #\newline in READ-CHAR. It looks like I shouldn't do any conversions in READ-CHAR, now that I put it to words it sounds like a terrible idea. 05:06:18 gigamonkeys seems to agree too 05:06:23 http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/files-and-file-io.html Footnote #13 05:06:24 read-line says it ends with a #\Newline specifically 05:06:39 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:06:47 i think i might have found this out dealing with CRLF irc messages now that i think about it 05:07:06 Oh, I'm surprised 05:07:54 Oh wait, that footnote #13 seems to say the opposite - it looks like I should translate platform-specific line endings to a single #\newline. 05:08:29 resttime: what's (with-input-from-string (s (format nil "asdfoo~c~cbar" #\Return #\Newline)) (read-line s)) get you on Windows? 05:08:34 Hmmm, looks like I have no clue what I'm talking about :D 05:08:57 "asdfoo^M" 05:09:05 same on linux. 05:09:14 resttime: Don't worry about it - we strive for perfection here :-) 05:09:47 drmeiste_: well, the fact footnote 13 suggests using read-char to get the "real" character count implies it doesn't translate CRLF, i would think 05:10:41 We rarely achieve it - except Bike, who has an eidetic memory for all things Common Lisp. 05:10:55 ha, right. 05:11:34 edgar-rft [~GOD@HSI-KBW-149-172-63-75.hsi13.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 05:12:15 -!- lyanchih [~lyanchih@114-34-99-241.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Quit: lyanchih] 05:19:11 phadthai [mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has joined #lisp 05:19:20 The reference #13 says "on Windows the number of characters will typically be smaller than the number of bytes" - doesn't that suggest that CR-LF should be translated to a single #\Newline. However your example above says that SBCL doesn't do that. 05:19:25 -!- petrounias [~petrounia@ppp-2-85-57-46.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 05:20:05 Is #\RETURN equal to "^M"? 05:20:07 -!- ampersand27017 [~ampersand@76.91.115.14] has quit [Quit: ampersand27017] 05:21:01 I'll mimic what SBCL does - I can't go too wrong with that. 05:22:27 drmeiste_: #\Returns is not equal to "^M". "^M" is just how it usually printed. 05:23:00 s/Returns/Return/ 05:23:28 Hmm, let me see what (with-input-from-string (s (format nil "asdfoo~c~cbar" #\Return #\Newline)) (read-line s)) does on my system. 05:24:52 petrounias [~petrounia@ppp-2-85-57-46.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 05:27:44 -!- yano [yano@freenode/staff/yano] has quit [Quit: WeeChat, The Better IRC Client: http://weechat.org/] 05:29:54 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-168-35.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:30:13 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-168-35.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 05:30:52 I think it's fairly clear that #\newline is intended to represent the line delimiter on the system. 05:31:09 And if that is represented by \r\n, then that should be converted to a single #\newline. 05:31:35 #\return, on the other hand, is a terminal control character. 05:32:08 But it will depend on what you're reading from in order to determine what the line delimiter is. 05:32:29 *hitecnologys* agrees with Zhivago 05:33:55 (This also happens to be how C and C++ do things, so it should be easy for your C++ based implementation). 05:34:36 ampersand27017 [~ampersand@76.91.115.14] has joined #lisp 05:35:58 Corvidium [~cosman246@c-24-143-118-11.customer.broadstripe.net] has joined #lisp 05:40:25 -!- ampersand27017 [~ampersand@76.91.115.14] has quit [Quit: ampersand27017] 05:40:45 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-76-115-114-77.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:41:19 -!- petrounias [~petrounia@ppp-2-85-57-46.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 05:41:55 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-76-115-114-77.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:42:08 drmeiste_: So how close are you (time-estimate) to open sourcing your implementation? 05:42:41 samebchase: Did you ever see the movie "The Money Pit" with Tom Hanks? 05:43:14 Two weeks 05:43:19 wow, awesome reference 05:43:24 haha, very funny 05:43:24 :) 05:43:36 drmeiste_: :-( didn't see the movie, so don't get it. 05:43:41 pnpuff [~Galerkin@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 05:43:45 s/don't/I don't/ 05:44:30 They were fixing up this enormous house and there was a running joke where their contracters would always tell them "two weeks" whenever they asked how long something would take. 05:44:53 heh 05:44:55 petrounias [~petrounia@ppp-2-85-57-46.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 05:44:56 okay 05:45:02 I'm adding garbage collection at the moment. 05:45:16 -!- pnpuff [~Galerkin@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has left #lisp 05:45:17 I hope to have it running this week - then I could release it. 05:45:26 This next week. 05:45:29 drmeiste_: what are you working on? 05:45:36 wow. that's really nice. 05:46:19 I'm integrating the Memory Pool System by Ravenbrook. 05:46:25 -!- persizzl [~twosizes@gateway/tor-sasl/persizzl] has quit [Quit: persizzl] 05:46:53 holycow: A Common Lisp compiler that integrates with C++ and has an LLVM JIT compiler backend. 05:47:04 oh neat 05:47:16 ! 05:47:42 I was just searching for LLVM Lisp related things fe days ago 05:47:49 cool 05:48:39 I'm assuming you're reimplementing Common Lisp instead of existing implementation? 05:49:33 Oh wow, sounds awesome. 05:49:56 Sorta. I've reimplemented a lot of low-level functionality in C++ and taken great pains to integrate it with C++. This means C++ lays out classes, exception handling works with C++, C++ calling conventions etc. 05:50:20 The Common Lisp code is from Embedded Common Lisp. I host it on top of my low-level core. 05:51:07 I don't use the ECL compilers (it has two), I wrote a compiler from scratch and I have an S-expression walking interpreter that bootstraps everything. 05:52:24 persizzl [~twosizes@gateway/tor-sasl/persizzl] has joined #lisp 05:53:15 Compiling things like complex literal objects was tricky - I ended up generating a function that calls C++ code to recreate literal objects in FASL files. 05:58:14 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 05:59:33 -!- petrounias [~petrounia@ppp-2-85-57-46.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:00:51 I'm kinda of curious, how's the FFI going to work to call C++ code? 06:01:25 is it going to be CFFI or something like a regular #include? 06:05:03 petrounias [~petrounia@ppp-2-85-57-46.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 06:07:51 resttime: I don't use an FFI. I use template programming from the C++ side to integrate C++ code with CL. It's very much like boost::python or luabind. 06:08:24 You give it the function name and a pointer to the function and it automagically builds an interface. It does the same with classes. 06:09:07 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@70.114.215.220] has quit [Quit: normanrichards] 06:10:02 In the future you won't even need to do that. I'm interfacing with the Clang AST tools, they let you walk the C++ AST and extract all sorts of information from it. I'm currently using this to build my garbage collection scanner and to do source-to-source translation to improve and clean-up my C++ code. 06:10:45 Meta^n-programming. 06:12:13 i'm super hyped 06:13:18 It's also a great platform to play with and develop LLVM-IR - and integrate IR with Common Lisp and C++ code - LLVM-IR is like a portable machine language. 06:13:47 Garbage collection scanner? 06:13:57 ampersand27017 [~ampersand@76.91.115.14] has joined #lisp 06:14:06 Anyway, it will be available soon - the time keeps receding into the future but I think I'm getting close. 06:14:58 Bike: The GC scanner identifies pointers in objects. 06:15:08 from source? 06:15:11 Yes. 06:15:18 Why? 06:15:43 well, usually you need some kind of runtime component, but i guess apple manages 06:17:04 What do you mean by a "runtime component"? I think in my case you mean the Memory Pool System library that I'm using. The way I'm starting to use it you have a function that scans objects on the heap and it scans the stack Boehm style. 06:17:25 well, sure, but that's not something you do to source. 06:17:29 pnpuff [~metanool@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 06:18:30 So, it is conservative? 06:19:14 -!- petrounias [~petrounia@ppp-2-85-57-46.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 06:19:19 -!- pnpuff [~metanool@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has left #lisp 06:20:03 No, but I have about 150 classes that contain instance variables that are pointers. I didn't want to write the object scanner by hand - it would take to long and I'll make mistakes. So I wrote a program (using the Clang AST libraries) that parses all of my C++ code, identifies pointers and STL containers that contain pointers and generates a C++ function that scans the objects. When I add a pointer to a class 06:20:03 I just rerun the GC-scanner generator. 06:20:26 For instance, a CONS has to have its CAR and CDR scanned. 06:20:30 Oh, right. I forgot how MPS works, sorry. 06:20:40 Or rather I don't know it very well in the first place. 06:20:42 A hash table needs to have its contents scanned. 06:20:42 Then I wouldn't call it Boehm style. :) 06:20:46 pnpuff [~YYZ@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 06:21:10 I meant wrt the stack. 06:21:16 I think it does scan the stack Boehm style, though? The static analysis is only to determine how heap objects work. 06:21:28 Well, Boehm is conservative, so if your system isn't ... 06:21:39 -!- pnpuff [~YYZ@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has left #lisp 06:21:44 Well it has to scan the stack conservatively. 06:22:30 I think MPS basically has its own heap allocation, so it can deal with heap objects as it likes (and so not conservatively) but not so with the stack. 06:22:39 Yes, exactly, it scans the stack conservatively and treats what it finds there as imprecise roots and the scanner function scans objects and treats those pointers as precise. 06:22:53 pnpuff [~YYZ@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 06:23:15 Ok, so it is conservative. 06:23:27 MPS has precise garbage collection but you need to be able to identify pointers in stack frames. I know how to do that - then I will have precise GC. 06:23:38 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:24:22 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 06:24:38 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-76-115-114-77.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:24:42 I'll be using the AMC (Automatic Mostly-Copying) pool class initially - http://www.ravenbrook.com/project/mps/master/manual/html/pool/amc.html 06:25:05 petrounias [~petrounia@ppp-2-85-57-46.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 06:25:17 It uses copying garbage collection except for ambiguous references that it finds on the stack. 06:25:28 And you have multiple generations. 06:25:34 -!- pnpuff [~YYZ@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has quit [Quit: leaving] 06:26:00 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-76-115-114-77.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:26:00 -!- arubin [~arubin@99-114-192-172.lightspeed.cicril.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 06:26:46 pranavrc [~pranavrc@unaffiliated/pranavrc] has joined #lisp 06:31:13 -!- drmeiste_ is now known as drmeister_ 06:36:16 -!- namtsui [~user@c-76-21-121-73.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:37:20 DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@CPE-121-218-178-237.lnse4.cht.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 06:38:32 eldariof [~CLD@pppoe-212-106-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has joined #lisp 06:38:42 namtsui [~user@c-76-21-121-73.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:39:35 youlysse` [~user@24-217-211-79.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 06:40:14 -!- petrounias [~petrounia@ppp-2-85-57-46.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:45:12 petrounias [~petrounia@ppp-2-85-57-46.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 06:52:29 -!- resttime [~rest@adsl-99-135-190-144.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: resttime] 06:53:07 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 06:53:40 -!- mlamari [~quassel@cpe-70-112-159-86.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:54:45 -!- Bike [~Glossina@wl-nat100.it.wsu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:56:16 scoofy [~scoofy@catv-89-135-71-167.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 06:57:48 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 06:58:29 -!- cdidd [~cdidd@128-68-32-253.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:59:13 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 06:59:48 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 07:00:09 -!- nug700 [~nug700@174-26-153-201.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:01:12 -!- ltbarcly_ [~jvanwink@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 07:01:31 quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 07:01:57 -!- petrounias [~petrounia@ppp-2-85-57-46.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:04:43 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:05:18 petrounias [~petrounia@ppp-2-85-57-46.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 07:05:20 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 07:08:58 -!- ampersand27017 [~ampersand@76.91.115.14] has quit [Quit: ampersand27017] 07:10:11 tcr [~tcr@95-90-245-81-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 07:10:21 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 07:10:50 -!- hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@178.74.64.185] has quit [Quit: hitecnologys] 07:12:59 -!- holycow [~holycow@host-216-251-135-194.bchsia.skywaywest.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 07:13:12 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 07:14:48 -!- petrounias [~petrounia@ppp-2-85-57-46.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 07:15:22 petrounias [~petrounia@ppp-2-85-57-46.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 07:18:12 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:18:36 -!- youlysse` [~user@24-217-211-79.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:19:13 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 07:20:32 Devon`` [~Devon@043.149.198.203.static.netvigator.com] has joined #lisp 07:22:40 Hey Lispers, what sourse code control system do you prefer? 07:23:26 human [~happy@106.198.135.165] has joined #lisp 07:23:59 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 07:24:02 -!- human is now known as Guest16649 07:24:06 -!- Guest16649 [~happy@106.198.135.165] has left #lisp 07:24:06 Devon``: most seem to use git or hg these days 07:24:42 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 07:25:01 cdidd [~cdidd@89-178-169-163.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 07:25:28 I gather git & hg are widely used but what do *you* use? 07:28:10 these days git 07:28:59 also most CL projects seem to be using git. 07:29:37 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 07:29:51 -!- petrounias [~petrounia@ppp-2-85-57-46.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:30:50 -!- joekarma [~joekarma@184.151.231.62] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:31:11 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 07:31:57 -!- phadthai [mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:33:47 git 07:34:04 -!- cdidd [~cdidd@89-178-169-163.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:34:32 cdidd [~cdidd@128-68-38-241.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 07:35:03 doomlord [~doomlod@host86-180-26-144.range86-180.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 07:35:25 petrounias [~petrounia@ppp-2-85-57-46.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 07:36:05 prxq [~mommer@mnhm-4d012f55.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 07:36:57 dkordic [~danilo@178-222-84-9.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 07:38:00 Do you prefer git to, say, hg, for CL projects because it is popular or are there other reasons? 07:38:02 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 07:38:30 joekarma [~joekarma@S010678cd8e7c19a0.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 07:41:20 nug700 [~nug700@174-26-152-120.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 07:44:14 dtw [~dtw@pdpc/supporter/active/dtw] has joined #lisp 07:45:47 Popularity and because I know it the best. 07:46:11 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 07:46:44 ehu [~ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 07:46:49 jerryzhou [~xiaotaota@58.245.253.218] has joined #lisp 07:47:11 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 07:49:25 -!- petrounias [~petrounia@ppp-2-85-57-46.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 07:50:33 phadthai [mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has joined #lisp 07:51:43 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 07:53:06 -!- harish [~harish@175.156.118.29] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:53:27 harish [~harish@175.156.118.29] has joined #lisp 07:55:26 -!- phadthai [mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 07:55:31 petrounias [~petrounia@ppp-2-85-57-46.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 07:56:16 phadthai [mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has joined #lisp 07:56:18 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:58:10 -!- jerryzhou [~xiaotaota@58.245.253.218] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:58:32 Shinmera [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 07:58:46 -!- harish [~harish@175.156.118.29] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:59:27 harish [~harish@175.156.118.29] has joined #lisp 08:01:55 Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 08:03:44 bitonic [~user@ppp-188-144.27-151.libero.it] has joined #lisp 08:05:14 -!- eldariof [~CLD@pppoe-212-106-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 08:07:35 http://paste.lisp.org/display/138505 <<< I wrote this function to split string and it seems like "over" used 'loop'. I'm wondering if it could be written more elegantly using "loop". 08:09:45 -!- petrounias [~petrounia@ppp-2-85-57-46.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:10:51 wahjava-: unless you are doing exercises, it is better to use something like (ppcre:split "/" "/home/abbe/progs/lisp/foo.lisp/") 08:11:45 hmm..., I wasn't doing exercise, but I didn't find any string manipulation routine in HyperSpec to do something like that. 08:12:11 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 08:12:13 okay, just use a library like cl-ppcre then 08:12:37 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 08:13:13 cool, thanks 08:14:05 also, is it a good practise to add (ql:quickload ...) (QuickLisp) at the top of your source to load any Lisp libraries your code needs? 08:14:22 -!- pranavrc [~pranavrc@unaffiliated/pranavrc] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:14:37 -!- harish [~harish@175.156.118.29] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:14:42 usually people use asdf to load libraries 08:15:19 http://www.xach.com/lisp/quickproject/ 08:15:22 so use quicklisp only to install them, but refer to them in your source code via asdf ? 08:15:36 harish [~harish@175.156.118.29] has joined #lisp 08:15:36 petrounias [~petrounia@ppp-2-85-57-46.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 08:15:47 you could use that to easily generate the .asd file 08:16:03 QL uses asdf under the hood 08:16:18 foreignFunction [~niksaak@ip-4761.sunline.net.ua] has joined #lisp 08:16:39 many people use QL, but more people use asdf 08:16:40 hmm.., is there any documentation about ASDF, QL, et. al. and how to use them ? 08:16:56 you can use Quickproject to start with 08:17:06 I'm studying from Practical Common Lisp, ftr. 08:17:08 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 08:17:14 and then have a look at some projects that use asdf 08:17:34 PCL doesn't talk about asdf much 08:17:46 it doesn't talk about it at all actually 08:17:50 Yes, or any packaging, as I found out. 08:18:38 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 08:18:44 there's no other "packaging" if by "packaging" you mean what ASDF does 08:19:16 well, i meant the packaging system and how to use it. 08:19:24 so, I read this paper "The Complete Idiot's Guide to Common Lisp Packages" 08:19:49 packages are different, they are like namespaces 08:19:53 wahjava-: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/programming-in-the-large-packages-and-symbols.html 08:19:56 which cleared couple of doubts about packages, but I'm not sure how "use-package" finds out actual .lisp files from where it needs to load 08:20:07 ASDF is a like a build system for CL 08:20:28 wahjava-: packages don't know anything about files 08:21:02 yes, so i found out. 08:21:33 wahjava-: I have heard people say that it is a bad paper to read. 08:21:34 which is why till i now i'm using (ql:quickload...) at top of my source codes to reference libraries the code needs. 08:22:05 you could do that, of course 08:22:15 (eval-when (:compile-toplevel :load-toplevel :execute) (ql:quickload...)) will be better if you wish to compile the file 08:22:27 harish_ [~harish@175.156.118.29] has joined #lisp 08:22:33 yes, i can, but i'm looking for something conventional 08:22:49 -!- harish [~harish@175.156.118.29] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:22:52 , but doing things the standard way will make your project more accessible for everyone 08:23:02 correct, that's the reasoning. 08:23:16 the standard way atm is asdf 08:23:32 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:23:45 conventional is making an asdf system, but who cares about conventional 08:24:24 wahjava-: https://github.com/hanshuebner/yason/blob/master/yason.asd look at that for a nice .asd 08:24:29 that you can learn from 08:25:39 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 08:25:42 learn? there's nothing explained here 08:26:13 but what about end-user app, which is where entrypoint lies ? does one also has to implement .asd if they're writing end-user app for someone to execute? 08:26:27 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@CPE-121-218-178-237.lnse4.cht.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Quit: Bye] 08:26:43 stassats: well there's always the ASDF documentation 08:26:48 hopefully, end user apps won't include any .asd files 08:26:53 if you care about your users 08:27:14 the source code for it will have .asd, naturally 08:27:15 well, trying to :) 08:27:35 wahjava-: you can create an executablee image (a binary, basically) that can be run 08:27:56 okay 08:28:24 okay, any good reference to learn about ASDF, QuickLisp, et. al., and how to do things standard way? 08:28:29 are you already trying to ship apps? 08:29:01 angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has joined #lisp 08:29:11 well, i'm not, but unless i do (ql:quickload "library") at the top of my app, i can't use that library in my code. 08:29:36 but i'm not sure if that's the standard practise, quicklisp documentation doesn't say much about app stuff 08:29:40 -!- petrounias [~petrounia@ppp-2-85-57-46.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:30:13 does it work for you? if so, do that and care about other stuff when you need to care about it 08:30:53 ideally you'd do: (asdf:load-sytem "your-project-name") or if you have QL installed (ql:quickload "your-project-name") at the REPL to load your system 08:31:27 -!- harish_ [~harish@175.156.118.29] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:31:30 okay 08:31:36 if you've got a .asd 08:31:54 let the .asd worry about what libraries you need 08:32:05 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:32:53 see line:30 in the .asd link. yason depends on alexandria 08:33:08 and that is how dependencies are specified 08:33:16 yes, but isn't yason a library 08:33:21 it is 08:33:41 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 08:34:08 harish_ [~harish@175.156.118.29] has joined #lisp 08:34:20 okay, is there any good reference for understanding about ASDF ? 08:34:43 http://common-lisp.net/project/asdf/asdf.html, but I'd recommend that you use quickproject 08:35:01 to get the hang of things first. that's how I learned how to use asdf 08:35:12 arenz [~arenz@HSI-KBW-109-193-252-079.hsi7.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 08:35:16 sure, thanks! 08:35:26 Hi there again, Xach. I've got a few issues with buildapp that I'd like to address. I'm going to have some time today so I'd offer to fix them and provide patches. Are you available by chance? 08:35:27 it generates a package.lisp and a .asd for you 08:35:34 okay 08:37:10 petrounias [~petrounia@ppp-2-85-57-46.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 08:37:39 -!- harish_ [~harish@175.156.118.29] has quit [Client Quit] 08:40:47 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:41:44 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 08:42:13 minion: tell wahjava- about xach-asdf 08:42:13 wahjava-: please see xach-asdf: Xach's article "Making a small Common Lisp project" can be found at http://xach.livejournal.com/130040.html 08:43:54 cool, thanks! 08:44:24 -!- surrounder [~surrounde@095-096-032-026.static.chello.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:44:27 surrounder_ [~surrounde@095-096-032-026.static.chello.nl] has joined #lisp 08:45:02 -!- joekarma [~joekarma@S010678cd8e7c19a0.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:45:55 -!- petrounias 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[~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 09:21:52 -!- petrounias [~petrounia@ppp-2-85-57-46.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:22:21 emmab [~dan@host-78-151-203-46.as13285.net] has joined #lisp 09:23:43 lufu [~user@5.254.134.78] has joined #lisp 09:24:16 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:25:18 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 09:25:41 -!- whitedawg [~whitedawg@122.179.31.225] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:27:00 -!- principia [~Adium@pool-96-252-36-172.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:27:25 petrounias [~petrounia@ppp-2-85-57-46.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 09:28:04 anyone have any twitter user archiving script? 09:29:30 pranavrc [~pranavrc@unaffiliated/pranavrc] has joined #lisp 09:29:48 oops wrong chat window sorry 09:30:19 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 09:30:20 -!- oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-165-235.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 09:32:26 BitPuffin_ [~quassel@c83-254-19-137.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 09:32:52 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 09:34:22 hi, does unwind-protect trigger when aborting from the REPL? 09:35:15 -!- nug700 [~nug700@174-26-152-120.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 09:35:26 oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-165-235.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 09:35:42 nug700 [~nug700@174-26-152-120.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 09:37:13 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:39:08 -!- emmab [~dan@host-78-151-203-46.as13285.net] has quit [Quit: emmab] 09:41:25 -!- petrounias [~petrounia@ppp-2-85-57-46.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 09:44:43 youlysses [~user@24-217-211-79.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 09:47:30 petrounias [~petrounia@ppp-2-85-57-46.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 09:47:53 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ho1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 09:48:53 -!- ehaliewicz [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 09:49:06 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 09:51:01 -!- arenz [~arenz@HSI-KBW-109-193-252-079.hsi7.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 09:53:26 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:55:08 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 09:55:50 -!- BitPuffin_ [~quassel@c83-254-19-137.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:56:48 the protected form of unwind-protect is always executed 09:56:52 dmiles [~dmiles@c-98-246-180-47.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:57:09 -!- petrounias [~petrounia@ppp-2-85-57-46.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:57:15 rather, it's called the cleanup form 09:57:31 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-76-115-114-77.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:57:37 petrounias [~petrounia@ppp-2-85-57-46.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 09:59:10 stassats: it may not be executed. eg. when the end of the universe occurs, when the PHB trips over the power cord, depending on the implementation when it is quitted, or it receive some signals, etc. 09:59:31 principia [~Adium@pool-96-252-36-172.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 09:59:40 -!- principia [~Adium@pool-96-252-36-172.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 09:59:51 But when aborting from the REPL, it is expected that they're executed indeed. 10:00:22 i was answering emmab's question, but he left and i'm stuck with pedantic remarks 10:01:40 :-) 10:01:43 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 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seconds] 10:59:52 eldariof [~CLD@pppoe-212-106-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has joined #lisp 11:02:08 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 11:02:42 ASau [~user@p5797FF33.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 11:04:04 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 11:04:35 -!- oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-165-235.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 11:05:41 stepnem [~stepnem@internet2.cznet.cz] has joined #lisp 11:08:34 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:08:38 -!- petrounias [~petrounia@ppp-2-85-57-46.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:09:12 petrounias [~petrounia@ppp-2-85-57-46.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 11:10:05 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 11:13:56 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 11:14:05 emmab [~dan@host-78-151-203-46.as13285.net] has joined #lisp 11:18:38 Karl_dscc [~localhost@p5B2B285B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 11:21:03 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:22:33 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 11:23:01 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Quit: kcj] 11:23:17 -!- petrounias [~petrounia@ppp-2-85-57-46.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:23:27 Indecipherable [~Indeciphe@41.11.210.250] has joined #lisp 11:23:28 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 11:25:59 oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-165-235.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 11:26:17 hiroaki [~hiroaki@ip-78-94-251-132.unitymediagroup.de] has joined #lisp 11:27:02 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:27:13 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 11:27:43 hello there. i've a question regarding the flet expression: is it possible to use a function f1 in a function f2, when i define both in the same flet expression? 11:28:11 no, use labels 11:28:34 o.k. i'll google that, i don't know labels at the moment 11:28:44 don't google anything! 11:28:48 clhs labels 11:28:49 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_flet_.htm 11:29:08 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 11:29:35 -!- faust45 [~faust45@91.228.236.131] has quit [Quit: faust45] 11:30:01 petrounias [~petrounia@ppp-2-85-57-46.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 11:31:38 one moment i'll check if i can access this over the clhs-package of debian :) 11:32:42 you can 11:33:46 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:35:13 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 11:38:27 stassats, thank you very much :) this is exactly what i wanted 11:39:50 -!- ltbarcly 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11:59:44 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 12:00:24 -!- jerryzhou [~xiaotaota@58.245.253.218] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:03:27 -!- maxter [~maxter@sundownness.lullaby.volia.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 12:03:34 maxter [~maxter@sundownness.lullaby.volia.net] has joined #lisp 12:04:10 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:07:02 -!- petrounias [~petrounia@ppp-2-85-57-46.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 12:09:10 Devon`` [~Devon@043.149.198.203.static.netvigator.com] has joined #lisp 12:09:21 principia [~Adium@pool-96-252-36-172.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 12:10:12 petrounias [~petrounia@ppp-2-85-57-46.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 12:14:55 -!- lufu [~user@5.254.134.78] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:15:41 lufu [~user@5.254.134.78] has joined #lisp 12:17:30 Fullma [~fullma@ram94-2-82-66-69-246.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 12:17:52 jewel [~jewel@105-237-24-51.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 12:19:54 if I need to verify that value for one of the slots which my class's is getting passed in `make-instance' is not of expected type, should I do that check in (defmethod initialize-instance :after ...) or is there any better place to do this check? 12:22:30 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-101-48.lns20.bne4.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 12:24:46 -!- petrounias [~petrounia@ppp-2-85-57-46.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 12:24:52 wahjava-: already, if you do (defclass my-class () ((my-slot :type 'some-type))) the class should check the type itself in make-instance. 12:25:06 Otherwise, it's probably better to do in initialize-instance :before 12:25:13 oh! didn't know about that. thanks 12:26:00 wahjava-: however, type checking (in make-instance) is optional, implementation dependant, so if you want to make it sure, do it in initialize-instance :before. 12:26:21 oh, okay 12:26:22 tic [~tic@c83-248-1-208.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 12:30:16 petrounias [~petrounia@ppp-2-85-57-46.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 12:30:39 normanrichards [~normanric@70.114.215.220] has joined #lisp 12:30:47 -!- emmab [~dan@host-78-151-203-46.as13285.net] has quit [Quit: emmab] 12:31:25 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@70.114.215.220] has quit [Client Quit] 12:32:51 -!- MoALTz [~no@host86-137-70-230.range86-137.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:33:22 MoALTz [~no@host86-137-70-230.range86-137.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 12:34:40 -!- ASau` is now known as ASau 12:34:51 normanrichards [~normanric@70.114.215.220] has joined #lisp 12:37:58 -!- scoofy [~scoofy@catv-89-135-71-167.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [] 12:40:50 -!- oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-165-235.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:41:08 oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-137-234.netcologne.de] 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[~patric@m176-70-219-151.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 12:57:14 maxter [~maxter@sundownness.lullaby.volia.net] has joined #lisp 12:58:16 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-121-164.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 12:59:44 Are all the efforts accomplished in order to implement a 'reversible linear Lisp' of some utility nowadays? 12:59:45 pnpuff, memo from pjb: graphs come in two varieties: directed graphs and undirected graph. dgraph probably refers to the former. 13:01:48 -!- zubadan [~patric@m176-70-219-151.cust.tele2.se] has left #lisp 13:01:59 -!- pnpuff [~l@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has left #lisp 13:03:43 -!- pranavrc [~pranavrc@unaffiliated/pranavrc] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:04:50 minion: memo for pnpuff: staying a tad longer on irc would help in having a discussion!!! 13:04:51 Remembered. I'll tell pnpuff when he/she/it next speaks. 13:04:57 -!- petrounias [~petrounia@ppp-2-85-57-46.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:05:26 minion: memo for pnpuff: reversible computing is useful because it's very sparing in electrical power. So it'd be useful on mobile devices. 13:05:27 Remembered. I'll tell pnpuff when he/she/it next speaks. 13:06:47 minion: memo for pnpuff: otherwise, just use news:comp.lang.lisp to ask your questions. 13:06:47 Remembered. I'll tell pnpuff when he/she/it next speaks. 13:09:07 breakds [~breakds@c-24-0-146-43.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:09:17 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@70.114.215.220] has quit [Quit: normanrichards] 13:10:29 petrounias [~petrounia@ppp-2-85-57-46.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 13:16:35 -!- eldariof [~CLD@pppoe-212-106-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:17:16 emmab [~dan@host-78-151-203-46.as13285.net] has joined #lisp 13:23:58 -!- petrounias [~petrounia@ppp-2-85-57-46.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:24:07 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-121-164.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 13:26:47 teggi [~teggi@123.20.106.65] has joined #lisp 13:28:24 normanrichards [~normanric@63.98.50.138] has joined #lisp 13:30:29 petrounias [~petrounia@ppp-2-85-57-46.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 13:32:18 -!- surrounder_ is now known as surrounder 13:32:34 joe9 [~user@ip70-179-153-227.fv.ks.cox.net] has joined #lisp 13:35:35 lyanchih [~lyanchih@114-34-99-241.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 13:40:15 AeroNotix [~xeno@abny205.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 13:43:24 -!- cdidd [~cdidd@128-68-38-241.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:43:46 -!- principia [~Adium@pool-96-252-36-172.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:44:37 -!- petrounias [~petrounia@ppp-2-85-57-46.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 13:48:57 jeti [~user@p548E99FA.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 13:49:12 -!- breakds [~breakds@c-24-0-146-43.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 13:49:16 motionman [~klrkdekir@210.195.224.156] has joined #lisp 13:50:26 LiamH [~none@pool-74-96-2-44.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:50:37 petrounias [~petrounia@ppp-2-85-57-46.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 13:51:24 hello, folks 13:53:07 -!- Marqin [~pointless@gateway/shell/mydevil.net/x-eamkbswbnsshznuq] has quit [Changing host] 13:53:07 Marqin [~pointless@unaffiliated/marqin] has joined #lisp 13:53:07 -!- Marqin [~pointless@unaffiliated/marqin] has quit [Changing host] 13:53:07 Marqin [~pointless@gateway/shell/mydevil.net/x-eamkbswbnsshznuq] has joined #lisp 13:53:20 -!- fridim__ [~fridim@bas2-montreal07-2925317871.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:55:50 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ho1.unidsl.de] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 13:56:07 -!- dtw [~dtw@pdpc/supporter/active/dtw] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 13:58:03 -!- petrounias [~petrounia@ppp-2-85-57-46.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Quit: petrounias] 13:59:07 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ho1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 14:03:23 hello 14:05:42 cdidd [~cdidd@128-68-57-183.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 14:09:40 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:11:09 Hello! 14:11:19 -!- cdidd [~cdidd@128-68-57-183.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:13:15 Kenjin 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joined #lisp 17:02:31 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:03:20 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 17:03:50 fridim__ [~fridim@bas2-montreal07-2925317871.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 17:04:54 -!- ehu` [~ehu@31.138.110.216] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:12:44 -!- Bike [~Glossina@wl-nat100.it.wsu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 17:13:08 Bike [~Glossina@wl-nat100.it.wsu.edu] has joined #lisp 17:13:35 resttime [~rest@adsl-99-135-190-144.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:18:24 -!- Devon`` [~Devon@043.149.198.203.static.netvigator.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 17:20:37 ampersand27017 [~ampersand@76.91.115.14] has joined #lisp 17:21:16 is there something like PCL but with more excercises? 17:22:39 Exercises are good and everything, but writing useful, real world code would be more educational (and interesting) 17:23:00 -!- knob [~knob@66-50-172-214.prtc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:23:01 tcr [~tcr@95-90-245-81-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 17:23:22 what kind of real world code do you write, samebchase? 17:23:25 indeed, and I try to. However, having some clear guidelines for the end product means you can focus on implementation rather than the scope of a piece of code. 17:23:43 Ergo - I want more exevises 17:24:14 -!- EvW [~Thunderbi@a82-92-190-215.adsl.xs4all.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:25:05 EvW [~Thunderbi@a82-92-190-215.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 17:25:48 AeroNotix: I found this to have lots of good exercises. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs.cmu.edu/user/dst/www/LispBook/index.html 17:26:52 nightshade427: cheers 17:26:55 scoofy: by a loose definiton of real world (as in, it is currently being used, not that it is any good or anything), I generate the html for posts for my site using this: https://github.com/samebchase/millipode I managed to learn a bit of programming with CL trying to write that. 17:27:17 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:28:41 -!- maxter [~maxter@sundownness.lullaby.volia.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:29:04 I would have hesitated to make that suggestion to AeroNotix, otherwise 17:29:18 maxter [~maxter@sundownness.lullaby.volia.net] has joined #lisp 17:31:54 -!- tcr [~tcr@95-90-245-81-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 17:32:05 jeti [~user@p548E9CB0.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 17:33:02 -!- motionman [~klrkdekir@210.195.224.156] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:35:03 treadmill vs hike in unknown terrain (that's how I look at things) 17:35:51 running the treadmill can prepare one for hiking in unknown terrain 17:36:04 edgar-rfx [~GOD@HSI-KBW-46-223-73-219.hsi.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 17:37:24 surely. 17:39:31 -!- edgar-rft [~GOD@HSI-KBW-149-172-63-75.hsi13.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:39:33 All I'm saying is that a person can be more motivated to write code that has a higher likelihood of being used. People lose interest in exercises quickly 17:41:37 ltbarcly_ [~jvanwink@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:44:13 -!- AeroNotix [~xeno@abny205.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:44:42 AeroNotix [~xeno@abny205.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 17:47:13 -!- AeroNotix [~xeno@abny205.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:47:28 AeroNotix [~xeno@abny205.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 17:47:38 LiamH [~none@pool-74-96-2-44.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:50:16 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@107.200.11.156] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:51:03 -!- pranavrc [~pranavrc@unaffiliated/pranavrc] has quit [Quit: Ping timeout: ] 17:51:13 -!- cscorp [~csorp@c-98-230-174-67.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: cscorp] 17:54:17 JuanDaugherty [~Ren@cpe-76-180-168-166.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:59:28 emmab [~dan@host-78-151-203-46.as13285.net] has joined #lisp 18:01:50 -!- sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:04:25 -!- edgar-rfx is now known as edgar-rft 18:07:28 Is there a page in the CLHS that lays out all the FORMAT directives? If there isn't then that's my one beef with the CLHS. 18:07:50 22.3? 18:07:55 What does the ~V directive do? I can't find it. 18:08:00 Eg: (format t "~V,,,'>a " 9 "hello") 18:08:01 it's not a directive, it's a prefix 18:08:07 Oh. 18:08:07 er, i mean, you use it instead of an argument 18:08:18 it's mentioned on 22.3's page i think. 18:08:47 so that's actually the a directive, with the arguments of what v does, empty, empty, and #\> 18:08:55 -!- bitonic [~user@ppp-188-144.27-151.libero.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:09:08 I take back all the terrible things I thought and said about the CLHS. 18:09:23 bitonic [~user@ppp-188-144.27-151.libero.it] has joined #lisp 18:09:47 ha. i think v is actually kind of obscure, or at least you're not the first one to ask about it after searching fruitlessly 18:11:46 slyrus [~chatzilla@107.200.11.156] has joined #lisp 18:14:44 -!- protist [~protist@65.224.69.111.dynamic.snap.net.nz] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 18:15:48 krfantasy [~user@li584-22.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 18:15:56 -!- krfantasy [~user@li584-22.members.linode.com] has left #lisp 18:16:08 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@50-196-148-101-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 18:16:28 kpreid [~kpreid@50-196-148-101-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 18:17:28 krfantasy [~user@li584-22.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 18:19:11 -!- krfantasy [~user@li584-22.members.linode.com] has left #lisp 18:22:06 So the full form of ~A is ~mincol,colinc,minpad,padcharA. The "~V,,,'>a" says "take one arg from the FORMAT args and put that in mincol - colinc,minpac will get default values and padchar is #\>"? 18:22:17 think so 18:23:35 What is "'>" "(single-quote)>" I expected "#\>" 18:23:40 tcr [~tcr@95-90-245-81-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 18:23:57 I think that's just what you use in format instead of #\ 18:24:02 clhs 22.3 18:24:02 Formatted Output: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_c.htm 18:24:02 -!- abeaumont [~abeaumont@111.254.76.188.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 18:24:33 "Prefix parameters are notated as signed (sign is optional) decimal numbers, or as a single-quote followed by a character." 18:26:18 sykopomp` [~sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 18:26:41 Thank you - I've got it now. 18:27:16 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Disconnected by services] 18:27:20 -!- sykopomp` is now known as sykopomp 18:28:06 -!- tcr [~tcr@95-90-245-81-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 18:31:59 -!- maxter [~maxter@sundownness.lullaby.volia.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:32:24 maxter [~maxter@sundownness.lullaby.volia.net] has joined #lisp 18:33:21 breakds [~breakds@c-24-0-146-43.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:37:23 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@107.200.11.156] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 18:39:30 abeaumont [~abeaumont@111.254.76.188.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 18:41:00 genkinodenki [~glure@83-145-213-33.localloop.fi] has joined #lisp 18:41:32 -!- dtw [~dtw@pdpc/supporter/active/dtw] has quit [Quit: +++ATH0] 18:42:11 why does (sin) give me a weird number when it should be 0? 18:42:37 genkinodenki: because you've not read What Every Computer Scientist Should Know About Floating-Point Arithmetic http://docs.oracle.com/cd/E19957-01/806-3568/ncg_goldberg.html 18:43:21 genkinodenki: you could also ask for a refund from your CS school. 18:43:28 ahah 18:44:02 genkinodenki, because sin is a function from R to R and the is no relieabl model for calculations in R 18:44:03 to sum up (and you really should read that link instead), floats can't do transcendental arithmetic perfectly. 18:44:13 hiroaki: there's realib. 18:44:29 hiroaki: somebody should integrate it into the numerical tower of CL. 18:44:37 what's that, computable reals? 18:44:49 by definition. 18:45:15 And they're all computable up to some precision :-) 18:45:18 well, that's not R to R :/ 18:45:53 can I trust the sin function outside of these cases? in other words, how do I fix this? 18:46:14 genkinodenki: floats approximate. there's nothing to fix; you got an approximately correct answer. 18:46:20 can realib really operate on R? i don't know a model for calculation out of theoretical computer science that really works for all numbers as a human would expect 18:46:31 hiroaki: as well as you can. 18:46:51 i can :D 2 * PI ist 2 PI ;) 18:46:58 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ho1.unidsl.de] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 18:47:06 and sqrt(PI) ist syqrt(PI) ;) 18:47:20 yeah, those are both computable operations. 18:47:23 Hmmm, looks like I have more debugging to do with some low level routine that FORMAT uses. (format t "~V,,,'>A|" 5 "x") --> "x |" when it should produce "x>>>>|" 18:47:34 basically, reallib does the same as you do. 18:47:36 -!- cucumbrman [~quassel@2605:6400:2:fed5:22:e113:afc2:73da] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:47:40 genkinodenki: just round down your result if you want to present it, you'll get your 0 18:47:43 (sqrt(PI))^2 = PI ;) 18:47:53 Bike, the error is bigger than in case of 1/3 = 0.333 though? 18:47:54 cucumbrman [~quassel@2605:6400:2:fed5:22:e113:afc2:73da] has joined #lisp 18:48:03 I prefer crashes, these sneeky, everything keeps working bugs are hard to track down. 18:48:29 stassats, nice, thanks! 18:48:30 genkinodenki: you're getting an error of more than three ten-thousandths? 18:49:27 -!- cucumbrman [~quassel@2605:6400:2:fed5:22:e113:afc2:73da] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:49:29 Bike, still, (sin pi) gives me 1.2246063538223773d-16, which is a bit more rad 18:49:45 that's quite a lot less of an error than three ten thousandths. 18:49:51 it is perfectly good a value for sin pi. 18:50:00 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ho1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 18:50:35 0.000000000000000012246063538223773 is close enough to 0. You wouldn't be able to make the difference in the real world. 18:50:40 more like ten quadrillion 18:50:43 th 18:51:16 Bike, apparently I'm reading the value wrong and that's the prob. I get how floating point ultimately produces inaccurate results but in order of 1's it seemed a bit too much so I thought it would be somehow accumulative 18:51:33 pjb, right. I was just an idiot :D 18:51:36 genkinodenki: Now, I admit the relative difference would be problematic in a galatic navigational system. When you provide me a galatic drive, I will provide you with a computer able to produce a more precise result. 18:51:41 genkinodenki: yeah, the d-16 means what pjb said. it's scientific notation. 18:51:57 genkinodenki: you should really read pjb's link there, it's quite interesting and informative. 18:52:14 but it's long and boring and it's math! 18:52:21 i like math :( 18:52:40 genkinodenki: I didn't mean idiot, but uneducated. 18:52:49 Bike, I should also read Dante's Inferno but I'm not sure if it would help acutely. I guess I got a satisfying answer and explanation 18:53:15 What would be idiotic, if you had asked and obtained good grades for your educationnal money, instead of asking for good education. 18:53:21 pjb, I haven't seen such notation for exponents before 18:53:30 But this is a second order consideration for which I have no information. 18:53:33 genkinodenki: well, if you're ever interested there's a good source for you, i guess 18:53:45 Bike, sure 18:53:53 genkinodenki: in CL, there are S E F D and L used as exponent markers. 18:53:54 genkinodenki: it's like 4.7E9 or whatnot in math, except with "d" instead of "E" because it's a _d_ouble 18:54:07 Bike, ahh... 18:54:22 tcr [~tcr@95-90-245-81-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 18:54:33 1d-16 just means 1 * 10^(-16) like usual 18:54:49 yeh. I know now. :-) 18:56:09 Shinmera_ [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 18:57:27 FWIW (~nothing) I don't go to school currently, and education is free here anyway, so I can't ask for my money back ;) 18:57:55 -!- ampersand27017 [~ampersand@76.91.115.14] has quit [Quit: ampersand27017] 19:00:36 jerryzhou [~xiaotaota@58.245.253.218] has joined #lisp 19:00:53 genkinodenki : "What Every Programmer Should Know About Floating-Point Arithmetic" at might also be interesting 19:01:21 ski: it's actually the same document. It is so important, it has several URIs :-) 19:01:28 thanks, I appreciate the pointers 19:01:39 -!- maxter [~maxter@sundownness.lullaby.volia.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:02:06 Ah, no, it's a simplier explanations. Ok. 19:02:34 but as stassats noted (even if sarcastically), it's so long and boring and it's math! ;D if it becomes relevant again I'll probably be guided in that direction 19:03:22 that link seems to be a simpler explanation, rather than "a long article with lots of formulas that didnt seem to help with your problem" 19:04:00 I'm not sure how much floating point precision I need at this point anyway, I'm working on a game engine and the positions on screen get rounded anyway. not dealing with collision detection yet. 19:04:32 maxter [~maxter@sundownness.lullaby.volia.net] has joined #lisp 19:05:19 genkinodenki: well, actually floating point rounding show up in games, in 3D engines, often enough. 19:07:23 -!- Karl_dscc [~localhost@p5B2B285B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:07:41 genkinodenki: 32-bit ieee754 floating points have 24 bits. 2^24 ~= 1.7e7 ; the circumference of Earth is about 4e10 millimeters, so single-floats are quite insufficient for Earth coordinates. 19:08:37 -!- mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:09:16 mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has joined #lisp 19:11:55 -!- seangrove [~user@c-69-181-197-122.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:13:29 -!- lufu [~user@5.254.134.78] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:19:17 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@rrcs-108-178-120-144.sw.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: normanrichards] 19:20:25 ieee754 32-bit float has 23 bits of mantissa. and since the range of values goes up to about 1e+38, thus 'single-floats are quite insuffient for Earth coordinates' is irrelevant 19:20:25 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for 32-bit float has 23 bits of mantissa. and since the range of values goes up to about 1e+38, thus 'single-floats are quite insuffient for Earth coordinates' is irrelevant. 19:20:31 genkinodenki: what is your application? 19:20:57 lufu [~user@5.254.134.78] has joined #lisp 19:21:02 scoofy, velocity vectors, not yet implemented 19:21:02 well it's not like the distribution of values is uniform. 19:21:28 game engines normally require speed 19:21:50 -!- ltbarcly_ [~jvanwink@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 19:21:56 ampersand27017 [~ampersand@76.91.115.14] has joined #lisp 19:22:11 -!- sz0` [~user@94.55.194.230] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 19:22:18 so take some fp-format, change if you run into trouble 19:22:32 32-bit float is sufficient in many applications. double precision is often only required when there's a feedback loop which makes calculation errors accumulate over time 19:22:37 i've worked with double precision fp's 19:22:50 yeah 19:23:17 or say, you want to implement some timing mechanism that stays in sync for like, 10 years 19:23:31 I wrote game engine long time ago and I used floats. 23-bits is enough for everyone. 19:24:16 s/-/ / 19:25:16 rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 19:25:29 -!- abeaumont [~abeaumont@111.254.76.188.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 19:25:51 genkinodenki, if you don't need NASA precision for velocity vectors, probably 32-bit float will do fine 19:26:15 :-) alright. 19:27:05 btw you should know that x86 FPUs normally process everything as 80 bits internally. so it matters mostly only in storage space 19:27:19 and data throughput speed 19:27:44 scoofy: it depends on FPU, not all of them do this AFAIK 19:28:02 i'm not sure genkinodenki is at the point where they need to worry about this yet. 19:28:03 i said x86 FPUs 19:28:39 -!- setmeaway [setmeaway@119.201.52.138] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:28:39 (i can't speak about others as have no experience with them) 19:28:41 you mean x87? 19:28:43 setmeaway2 [setmeaway3@119.201.52.138] has joined #lisp 19:29:04 yes. 19:29:26 because SSE do not use 80-bits 19:29:26 -!- ampersand27017 [~ampersand@76.91.115.14] has quit [Quit: ampersand27017] 19:29:37 ture. but that's probably irrelevant now. 19:29:47 scoofy: ah, didn't noticed that, sorry 19:30:58 using the st(0) x87 FPU registers will mean normally everything is computed at 80 bits. SSE and SSE2 processes 32 and 64 bit floats, so it depends on the code generation 19:31:22 if x87 or sse instructions are generated. 19:31:27 -!- lufu [~user@5.254.134.78] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:31:45 -!- foreignFunction [~niksaak@ip-4761.sunline.net.ua] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:31:48 -!- Shinmera_ [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:32:14 foreignFunction [~niksaak@ip-4761.sunline.net.ua] has joined #lisp 19:33:12 sbcl doesn't generate any code for things like SIN, it calls libc 19:35:44 then the resulting code may depend on how libc was compiled (using only plain x87 instructions or sse/sse2, compilers usually have a setting for that) 19:36:27 glibc implements them in assembly 19:37:12 then it depends on what kind of asm code they use in libc. 19:38:45 -!- namtsui [~user@c-76-21-121-73.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:39:04 normally sse and sse2 is aimed at vector processing (through it can process scalar data too), using plain x87 code is more portable (but anything above Pentium II should have at least SSE though...) 19:39:35 so many sse variations.... 19:39:41 you can only rely on sse tho.... 19:39:46 variations? 19:39:54 sse2 sse3.... 19:39:56 ampersand27017 [~ampersand@76.91.115.14] has joined #lisp 19:40:02 4.1, 4.2... 19:40:11 those aren't "variations" 19:40:18 -!- maxter [~maxter@sundownness.lullaby.volia.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 19:40:19 and you can rely on whatever is available on the machine 19:40:36 maxter [~maxter@sundownness.lullaby.volia.net] has joined #lisp 19:40:43 i see sse sse2 and ssse3 on my cpuinfo 19:40:43 each sse extension offers different functionality 19:41:47 they're mostly relevant for vector processing and some multimedia applications 19:42:07 but unless writing specialized code for them, there's not much to gain from them 19:42:50 and you can rely on sse2 being present on x86-64 19:43:09 is that some soft hard distinction there ? 19:43:10 sse2 is present on nearly any x86 system in use today 19:43:21 oleo: what do you mean? 19:43:28 ssse3 19:43:35 instead of sse3 19:43:44 sse2 is also used for general floating-point 19:43:54 not sure. however i know that some instruction sets (f.ex. avx) emulate some instructions instead of actually calculating it in hardware 19:44:11 SSE is also used for things like memset, strlen, etc. 19:44:14 SSEx 19:44:26 p_l as i said, they can all process scalars too. 19:44:29 scoofy: afaik every x86 cpu currently in use with exception of very few early 32bit Atoms is microcoded 19:44:36 faust45 [~faust45@92.49.206.241] has joined #lisp 19:44:55 so it's not only for some outlying tasks like vector processing and multimedia 19:45:18 you can use them whenever you want to move 128 bits of data. 19:45:32 or whenever you want IEEE fpu 19:45:40 SBCL only uses SSE and SSE2 on x86-64 19:45:43 and x87 on x86 19:45:57 makes it easier for portability 19:45:58 because the developers are too lazy to make backends more subtly specialized 19:46:18 gleag [~gleag@71.175.broadband2.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 19:46:21 using sse for scalars doesn't offer much over x87. maybe it's a bit faster. 19:46:29 (but only 32 bits versus 80 bits precision) 19:46:31 that and sse/sse2 are in the abi for x86_64 19:46:48 SSE is easier to handle than x87 19:46:55 -!- bitonic [~user@ppp-188-144.27-151.libero.it] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:46:57 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:47:04 that too 19:47:05 according to what criteria? 19:47:31 the psuedo not really a stack anymor einterface maybe? :p 19:47:32 scoofy: iirc they are simpler by virtue of not being designed to be run on separate chip 19:47:41 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 19:47:46 normanrichards [~normanric@70.114.215.220] has joined #lisp 19:48:28 -!- hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@178.74.64.185] has quit [Quit: hitecnologys] 19:48:47 scoofy: more registers? 19:48:58 -!- maxter [~maxter@sundownness.lullaby.volia.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 19:49:11 well, personally i have hand-written x87 and sse asm code, and don't see a great deal of difference between using the two. 19:49:22 maxter [~maxter@sundownness.lullaby.volia.net] has joined #lisp 19:49:30 gleag: both sse and x87 offer 8 registers (st(0)..st(7) vs. xmm0..xmm7) 19:49:59 scoofy: what about xmm8-xmm15? 19:50:22 that's not present on x86-32. 19:50:34 the x64 has more registers tho. 19:50:48 By the same reasoning, SSE is not present on P5... 19:50:55 :) 19:50:56 that's why i asked, 'according to what criteria' is it easier to use 19:51:13 depends on your target architecture 19:51:39 i cannot run x64 code using xmm8-xmm15 on an x86-32 CPU. 19:51:45 so they're of no use in that case 19:51:53 That reminds me, does anyone here write LAP on ClozureCL? 19:52:37 -!- EvW [~Thunderbi@a82-92-190-215.adsl.xs4all.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 19:53:30 -!- faust45 [~faust45@92.49.206.241] has quit [Quit: faust45] 19:55:54 -!- jerryzhou [~xiaotaota@58.245.253.218] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:56:10 EvW [~Thunderbi@a82-92-190-215.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 19:56:38 probably that's why sbcl uses sse/sse2 for x64 (where the number of registers is doubled), and x87 for x86 (where sse offers little benefit for scalars) 19:57:21 sbcl uses x87 on x86 because it's more portable 19:58:12 sbcl uses x87 on x86 because there was nothing else when it was written. :-p 19:58:13 and also that 19:58:41 sbcl is being written right now 19:58:42 iirc SSE on x86 in later code was also faster, though for "ludicrous" speed you could theoretically mix x87 with sse2 19:59:05 and ccl probably uses sse2 on x86 because when they were porting it from PPC, they didn't want ro rewrite the compiler logic to stack code. 19:59:22 -!- hiroaki [~hiroaki@ip-78-94-251-132.unitymediagroup.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:59:42 stassats: sbcl has been being written the past twenty-something years or so. :) 19:59:52 just not under the current name... 19:59:55 -!- _d3f [~gnu@46.183.216.234] has quit [Quit: And there, he goes!] 19:59:55 -!- maxter [~maxter@sundownness.lullaby.volia.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 19:59:57 sse is slightly faster than x87, at the expense of being only 32 bits precision instead of 80. 20:00:07 64... 20:00:25 gleag: sse cannot process 64 bit doubles 20:00:25 ngz [~user@91.224.148.150] has joined #lisp 20:00:26 Oh, you mean sse1? 20:00:30 yes. 20:00:57 But for scalar code, SSE1 in registers shouldn't be any slower than SSE2. 20:01:05 Unless there's something wrong with the CPU. 20:01:13 can we stop making more refined statements about various aspects of floating point instructions on intel cpus? it's not really on topic 20:01:37 anyways AMD supports SSE instructions too... 20:01:49 possibly with different timings :) 20:01:54 What was the topic? When I came here, it *was* SSE... :) 20:02:13 the topic is in the topic 20:02:38 original question was: is 32 bit float precision enough for velocity vectors. 20:03:11 depends. Also, for storage or calculations? 20:03:14 velocity, as in speed? Not the Velocity Engine? 20:03:18 namtsui [~user@c-76-21-121-73.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:04:21 -!- cods [~cods@tuxee.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:04:40 arranging operands to actually get a lot of benefit from sse or simd in general isn't always a win 20:04:41 genkinodenki didn't specify his question in more detail. 20:04:42 -!- namtsui [~user@c-76-21-121-73.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:05:10 It probably depends on the application...I sure wouldn't use it to calculate interplanetary trajectories... 20:05:41 yes, NASA is outsourcing consulting to #lisp 20:06:11 What does NASA have to do with it? 20:06:42 "interplanetary trajectories". 20:06:43 gleag, yes speed 20:06:54 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-171-156.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:07:04 throughput or latency? :p 20:07:28 genkinodenki: I'd consider going over the math manually and calculate error function of your calculations depending on precision 20:07:33 Bike: Interplanetary trajectories had existed long before NASA. Just ask the dinosaurs! 20:07:49 davazp [~user@178.167.240.163.threembb.ie] has joined #lisp 20:07:56 well, estimated error can be calculated or approximated at any point 20:10:16 gleag: there was no SSE then 20:11:11 cods [~cods@tuxee.net] has joined #lisp 20:11:36 there really wasn't x86 to speak of either 20:13:39 genkinodenki: speed of what exactly? 20:13:47 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 20:18:37 gleag, objects on screen (game) 20:18:40 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:19:12 genkinodenki: are their trajectories evolving in a potentially chaotic way? 20:19:31 gleag, depends on what you mean by that? 20:19:57 gleag, in fact, no. 20:20:05 zenbalrog [~johnnyc@adsl-98-65-220-49.tys.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 20:20:20 gleag, mostly straight lines 20:20:22 genkinodenki, exactly what i said earlier - if they're not interplanetary trajectories, you're probably fine with singles. 20:20:41 namtsui [~user@c-76-21-121-73.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:20:58 okay 20:21:12 Although I have the feeling that in CL, the only place where it makes sense to use singles is numerical arrays. 20:21:40 Registers don't care about that and boxed numbers smear the size and speed difference. 20:22:14 (Is it even possible to store unboxed doubles in CL structure fields?) 20:22:41 I think that's reasonably common? 20:22:43 -!- chu [~user@unaffiliated/chu] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:22:56 the boxed ones are the ones with the runaway lanes ? 20:23:05 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:23:08 -!- jewel [~jewel@105-237-24-51.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:23:21 but who tells when it's boxed or not 20:23:36 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.180.80.115] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20:24:25 cscorp [~csorp@c-98-230-174-67.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:26:09 iqool [~Thunderbi@2.173.18.38] has joined #lisp 20:27:17 I'm not an expert on PL semantics, but float numbers are immutable values, and therefore should be indistiguishable. 20:27:45 (if they're numerically equal) 20:27:58 er, is that related to boxing...? 20:28:26 Which should give the implementation an option to unbox struct fields in the background. 20:28:57 Without you even noticing (other than by lower GC pressure). 20:29:14 ahah 20:30:27 what gc can get in the way of many things.... 20:30:29 Someone should write "CLHS for Dummies"... 20:30:42 well the CLHS isn't going to have anything about boxing. 20:31:06 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:31:07 gc-safe coding 20:31:09 lol 20:31:11 Well, no, but it tells you acceptable observable behavior. 20:31:55 there's a :type for struct and class slots, that has the usual undefined-consequences-if-you-lie thing. SBCL, at least, has unboxed struct fields, i'm pretty sure 20:32:41 -!- emmab [~dan@host-78-151-203-46.as13285.net] has quit [Quit: emmab] 20:33:04 man that's like userspace vs. kernel 20:33:04 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for that's like userspace vs. kernel. 20:33:07 lol 20:33:25 oh i woke the bot 20:33:29 Bike: I'm trying to grasp from CLHS what the struct-level :type declaration is for... 20:33:47 emmab [~dan@host-78-151-203-46.as13285.net] has joined #lisp 20:34:02 gleag: if you say a slot has :type foo, then the consequences are undefined if you try to put a non-foo in there, and so on. this allows unboxed slots. 20:34:35 It seems like one of those obscure things nobody uses anymore but you must still implement them. 20:34:47 unboxed slots are pretty nice to implement 20:35:09 Bike: I meant the struct-level :type, not the slot-level :type 20:35:30 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20:35:41 Oh, the thing where it's actually a list? Yeah, at best it makes defining a bunch of pseudo-accessors easy, I guess. 20:36:46 As I said, an obscure thing that virtually nobody uses in modern code? 20:36:55 -!- yacks [~py@103.6.158.105] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:37:04 -!- emmab [~dan@host-78-151-203-46.as13285.net] has quit [Client Quit] 20:37:13 yeah, probably. dunno if i've ever seen it. 20:39:36 emmab [~dan@host-78-151-203-46.as13285.net] has joined #lisp 20:48:56 -!- ampersand27017 [~ampersand@76.91.115.14] has quit [Quit: ampersand27017] 20:52:21 -!- davazp [~user@178.167.240.163.threembb.ie] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:52:29 -!- cscorp [~csorp@c-98-230-174-67.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: cscorp] 20:55:07 -!- jeti [~user@p548E9CB0.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:55:14 -!- add^_ [~user@m176-70-198-98.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:55:42 add^_ [~user@m176-70-198-98.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 20:57:31 principia [~Adium@18.209.1.245] has joined #lisp 20:57:45 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:57:55 -!- Bike [~Glossina@wl-nat100.it.wsu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:57:56 Bike_ [~Glossina@wl-nat100.it.wsu.edu] has joined #lisp 20:58:41 -!- Bike_ is now known as Bike 20:59:26 -!- emmab [~dan@host-78-151-203-46.as13285.net] has quit [Quit: emmab] 21:01:48 -!- principia [~Adium@18.209.1.245] has quit [Client Quit] 21:03:51 -!- zenbalrog [~johnnyc@adsl-98-65-220-49.tys.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:04:44 ampersand27017 [~ampersand@76.91.115.14] has joined #lisp 21:07:36 -!- foreignFunction [~niksaak@ip-4761.sunline.net.ua] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:07:48 foreignFunction [~niksaak@ip-4761.sunline.net.ua] has joined #lisp 21:07:49 -!- bananagram [~bot@c-76-30-158-226.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:10:13 -!- alezost [~user@128-70-198-98.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:13:02 -!- add^_ [~user@m176-70-198-98.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:18:07 -!- tcr [~tcr@95-90-245-81-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:20:33 cscorp [~csorp@c-98-230-174-67.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:27:10 -!- matko [~matko@ip82-139-123-169.lijbrandt.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:27:32 matko [~matko@ip82-139-123-169.lijbrandt.net] has joined #lisp 21:27:52 ubikation [~quassel@c-67-168-252-238.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:33:22 tolk [~user@host135.190-226-87.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 21:33:36 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@internet2.cznet.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:34:33 paddymahoney [~patrick@24-246-29-188.cable.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 21:40:08 -!- CrazyEddy [~impolitic@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:47:38 -!- ampersand27017 [~ampersand@76.91.115.14] has quit [Quit: ampersand27017] 21:48:16 tcr [~tcr@95-90-245-81-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 21:49:21 ampersand27017 [~ampersand@76.91.115.14] has joined #lisp 21:51:45 -!- AeroNotix [~xeno@abny205.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:52:43 -!- tcr [~tcr@95-90-245-81-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:54:30 quick question: should I still be using antifuchs's github repo as my source for SLIME? 21:54:40 yes 21:55:01 CrazyEddy [~unauthori@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 21:59:02 -!- iqool [~Thunderbi@2.173.18.38] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 21:59:44 emmab [~dan@host-78-151-203-46.as13285.net] has joined #lisp 22:01:15 holycow [~holycow@host-216-251-135-194.bchsia.skywaywest.net] has joined #lisp 22:15:14 -!- emmab [~dan@host-78-151-203-46.as13285.net] has quit [Quit: emmab] 22:23:02 -!- cdidd [~cdidd@128-68-45-120.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:23:33 -!- blackwolf [~blackwolf@ool-4574e84c.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:24:59 -!- cscorp [~csorp@c-98-230-174-67.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: cscorp] 22:26:31 -!- otwieracz [~gonet9@v6.gen2.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:27:41 otwieracz [~gonet9@v6.gen2.org] has joined #lisp 22:30:08 -!- ampersand27017 [~ampersand@76.91.115.14] has quit [Quit: ampersand27017] 22:30:38 ampersand27017 [~ampersand@76.91.115.14] has joined #lisp 22:30:39 -!- ampersand27017 [~ampersand@76.91.115.14] has quit [Client Quit] 22:32:35 -!- otwieracz [~gonet9@v6.gen2.org] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:32:51 otwieracz [~gonet9@v6.gen2.org] has joined #lisp 22:34:02 ampersand27017 [~ampersand@76.91.115.14] has joined #lisp 22:44:57 how can a lisp function figure out the path to the file that contains itself? 22:45:20 some implementations store definition source info with their functions and such. 22:45:46 Bike: thanks! 22:48:22 seangrove [~user@c-69-181-197-122.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:48:57 tcr [~tcr@95-90-245-81-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 22:50:05 dsevilla [~user@77.211.88.136] has joined #lisp 22:50:51 Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has joined #lisp 22:53:18 -!- tcr [~tcr@95-90-245-81-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 22:57:06 ubikation: (defun f () (load-time-value *load-pathname*)) 22:58:10 -!- LiamH [~none@pool-74-96-2-44.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:58:29 See also eval-when and *compile-file-pathname* 23:02:19 -!- Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:04:12 Is there anyone online who uses ECL? 23:04:23 walter [~walter@c-24-218-217-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:04:41 What is the syntax of the TRACE macro with options? 23:04:57 I'm looking at the code and the manual and I can't get them to jive. 23:06:42 I use ecl sometimes, but I don't know implementation dependent stuff in general. 23:07:56 -!- gleag [~gleag@71.175.broadband2.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 23:08:05 So you've read http://ecls.sourceforge.net/ecl/The-tracer.html 23:10:49 Yeah - and I interpret the following: Macro: trace {function-name | (function-name {&key form}*)}* 23:11:01 I have a function call inside a "when" conditional and compiler says "deleting unreachable code", but if I put it outside it works fine. what's up? (when NIL (myfunction argument) (dostuff)) 23:11:32 (trace (f1 :cond (< x 1)) f2 (f3 :step (= x 1))) 23:11:53 so that (trace (sys:format-princ :break t)) should be valid syntax - but ECL replies with: Not a valid argument to TRACE: (A :BREAK T) 23:12:11 Sorry: (trace (A :break t)) --> Not a valid argument to TRACE: (A :BREAK T) 23:12:23 Where (defun A (x y) (+ x y)) 23:12:34 genkinodenki: NIL is never true, so the compiler can delete the code inside the when, and it warns you because it's not normal for a normal progarmmer to write code that is not needed. Normal programmers are lazy and only write useful code. 23:12:58 lol 23:13:07 drmeister_: well, sounds like a mismatch between the doc and the implementation then. 23:13:37 drmeister_: try: (trace (a :break (identity t))) ? 23:16:05 Same error - I think there's a bug in the ECL code for TRACE: https://gist.github.com/drmeister/a2d3e78fa27319a4d6c8 23:16:27 Hang on, that's my change - disregard 23:17:44 Here's the top of the ECL TRACE-ONE function: https://gist.github.com/drmeister/68689c68883d91a86ed3 23:18:08 askatasuna [~askatasun@111-223-126-200.fibertel.com.ar] has joined #lisp 23:18:13 On line 6 - shouldn't that read ((not (si::proper-list-p spec)) ... 23:18:57 The code seems to require an improper list as an argument to TRACE. 23:19:03 tcr [~tcr@95-90-245-81-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 23:19:15 Yes, that would be better :-) 23:20:59 rien [~maker@objectstudio.org] has joined #lisp 23:23:04 hi. How can i override a defstruct generated function? For instance, I've got (defstruct op ...) and later (defun op-p ...) in the same file, but CCL throws warnings saying im redefining op-p. what is the correct way of cleanly redefining op-p? 23:23:20 -!- tcr [~tcr@95-90-245-81-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:23:22 Sweet! That fixed it. This is really cool. I originally implemented TRACE in the low-level C++ code. Then I got all of the ECL code compiling on my C++ core, it implements TRACE in Common Lisp by wrapping the function to TRACE with tracing instructions. 23:24:11 -!- Shinmera [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has quit [Quit: zZz] 23:24:15 I could never get the ECL TRACE to work - it turns out it was this little bug in the ECL TRACE code. Now it works perfectly and it's all done in Common Lisp. 23:25:17 I need some help with this (see bottom for detailed error description along with my attempts): paste.lisp.org/+2YVH 23:25:30 it's a simple package error that I can't solve 23:26:08 tolk: you could (fmakunbound 'op-p), but you'd need to wrap it in a eval-when. Or you could just (unintern 'op-p) 23:27:05 tolk: it may be easier to (defstruct (op (:conc-name %op-)) ) so you can write (defun op-p (x) (%op-p x)) 23:27:53 but the rest of the code already uses op-* funcs generated by defstruct, i just want to override op-p 23:27:54 -!- ampersand27017 [~ampersand@76.91.115.14] has quit [Quit: ampersand27017] 23:28:19 should the (unintern 'op-p) come after the defstruct form and before the defun? 23:29:08 yes. 23:29:57 tolk: you can also rename just the predicate via (:predicate defstruct-op-p) or whatever. 23:30:40 Xach: oh ill try that 23:32:19 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ho1.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:35:19 jerryzhou [~xiaotaota@58.245.253.218] has joined #lisp 23:36:37 boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 23:45:03 -!- danlentz [~danlentz@c-68-37-70-235.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 23:45:48 danlentz [~danlentz@c-68-37-70-235.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:46:26 -!- walter [~walter@c-24-218-217-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 23:47:19 -!- arare [~Aramur@153.68.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Quit: arare] 23:47:21 -!- boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:47:21 I'm still learning the package system. I'm getting this error now: "Cannot use #<"SB-BSD-SOCKETS" package> from #<"GREET" package>, because SB-BSD-SOCKETS:SOCKET-LISTEN and GREET::SOCKET-LISTEN will cause a name conflict." 23:47:48 but I'm not defining socket-listen inside my package, so I'm not sure of the reason for the conflit. 23:48:01 s/conflit/conflict/ 23:49:21 rien: you already interned greet::socket-listen, probably by accident. do you get a resolve-conflict restart? 23:50:13 Bike: "No restarts available", perhaps because it only happens when I try and execute the compiled program (this is through ECL) 23:50:40 rien: try doing a clean restart and doing it again. you probably won't reintern the symbol so it should work 23:53:15 Bike: I'm starting afresh every time. 23:53:41 rien: can i see some code? 23:53:50 anything that uses socket-listen, specifically 23:54:00 Bike: http://paste.lisp.org/display/138509#1 23:54:24 see also the end of the first annotation... there you can see the steps I'm taking, and how it runs fine in the repl but not when compiled 23:55:20 OK, so I don't remember exactly off the top of my head, but require and use-package are possibly not run at compile-time, which will fuck everything up like that 23:56:23 rien: Can you wrap (require 'sockets) and (use-package :sb-bsd-sockets) in (eval-when (:compile-toplevel :load-toplevel :execute) ...) and see if that works? 23:57:05 rien: In the lines after the defpackage, I mean, I don't know why you're in-package-ing cl-user 23:58:10 -!- jerryzhou [~xiaotaota@58.245.253.218] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:59:33 Bike: ok I'm changing it so it starts like this: http://paste.lisp.org/display/138509#2