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seconds] 05:09:32 keen_____ [~blackened@pda6efe55.wmaxuq00.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 05:10:38 -!- ryankarason [~rak@108-245-58-182.lightspeed.clmboh.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:11:19 Bike [~Glossina@71-222-34-2.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 05:12:44 ryankarason [~rak@108-245-58-182.lightspeed.clmboh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:12:52 kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 05:13:22 -!- joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@086.112-30-64.ftth.swbr.surewest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:19:27 -!- kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:22:16 -!- m104 [~m104@c-67-169-151-146.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: bye] 05:22:54 ejohnson [~Thunderbi@c-67-181-201-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:23:32 wbooze [5098faa7@gateway/web/freenode/ip.80.152.250.167] has joined #lisp 05:23:37 kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 05:26:35 peccu2 [~peccu@KD106179020073.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 05:32:16 -!- Bike [~Glossina@71-222-34-2.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 05:32:56 Harag [~Thunderbi@41-132-83-33.dsl.mweb.co.za] has joined #lisp 05:33:17 Bike [~Glossina@71-222-34-2.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 05:34:50 -!- dcguru [~chatzilla@66.129.60.130] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90.1 [Firefox 19.0.2/20130307023931]] 05:37:02 -!- Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 05:38:09 -!- coreytrevor [~ma@95.211.140.99] has quit [Quit: leaving] 05:41:15 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-168-103.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:41:26 eldariof [~CLD@pppoe-196-60-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has joined #lisp 05:44:38 -!- keen_____ [~blackened@pda6efe55.wmaxuq00.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:45:04 keen_____ [~blackened@pda6efe55.wmaxuq00.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 05:45:07 m104 [~m104@c-67-169-151-146.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:46:11 sdemarre [~serge@109.134.136.172] has joined #lisp 05:49:06 -!- nbouscal [~nbouscal@c-67-168-113-48.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: nbouscal] 05:50:42 mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has joined #lisp 05:50:42 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has quit [Changing host] 05:50:42 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 05:51:05 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:52:42 CADD [~CADD@12.227.104.109] has joined #lisp 05:55:33 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:55:36 -!- doesthiswork [~Adium@174-31-178-247.tukw.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:56:26 Is there a way to trace functions defined with labels? 05:56:48 -!- jack_rabbit [~kyle@c-98-253-60-75.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:56:50 check your implementation's docs 05:58:19 coreytrevor [~ma@78.129.153.58] has joined #lisp 06:02:26 stepnem [~stepnem@internet2.cznet.cz] has joined #lisp 06:03:45 -!- Jubb [~Jubb@pool-72-66-105-188.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:05:52 -!- syrinx [~quassel@unaffiliated/syrinx-/x-4255893] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:06:07 syrinx [~quassel@ip68-1-175-223.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 06:06:07 -!- syrinx [~quassel@ip68-1-175-223.ri.ri.cox.net] has quit [Changing host] 06:06:07 syrinx [~quassel@unaffiliated/syrinx-/x-4255893] has joined #lisp 06:06:39 Saltina [~dg@2.83.76.2] has joined #lisp 06:06:53 -!- axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-88-224.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:07:57 axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-88-224.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 06:08:17 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-185-26.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 06:08:20 From the SBCL manual 5.9 it is unclear. I also found a bug report from 2009 that hints that the syntax would be (trace (labels foo bar)) but I am unable to make it work either way 06:08:49 dunno if sbcl can. allegro can. any chance you can just temporarily move the inner function out? 06:09:12 -!- CrazyEddy [~decolleta@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:09:47 hmm good idea. 06:10:34 axion_ [~axion@cpe-67-242-88-224.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 06:10:46 -!- axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-88-224.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:11:28 foreignFunction [~niksaak@ip-4761.sunline.net.ua] has joined #lisp 06:17:43 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@95.56.73.106] has joined #lisp 06:17:43 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@95.56.73.106] has quit [Changing host] 06:17:44 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 06:22:11 dtw [~dtw@pdpc/supporter/active/dtw] has joined #lisp 06:22:30 -!- axion_ [~axion@cpe-67-242-88-224.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:23:22 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:23:24 Gooder [~user@17.155.200.192.client.dyn.strong-in144.as13926.net] has joined #lisp 06:23:29 CrazyEddy [~unresourc@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 06:24:46 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:27:48 -!- m104 [~m104@c-67-169-151-146.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: brb] 06:28:08 axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-88-224.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 06:28:56 is there a way to splice a list outside of a backtick? 06:30:25 -!- CrazyEddy [~unresourc@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:30:28 append 06:32:10 and (concatenate 'list ...) 06:32:50 append? The problem I'm having is that I'm using &rest (once again for the helper function) so I want to 'unwrap' (or in my mind splice) the list which is a list of a list 06:33:03 maybe my terminology was incorrect? 06:33:17 (apply #'append '((a b) (4 5))) => (a b 4 5) 06:33:50 -!- Saltina [~dg@2.83.76.2] has quit [K-Lined] 06:34:04 *PuercoPop* nods 06:34:14 -!- axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-88-224.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:34:57 Also: (mapcan #'identity '((a b) (4 5))) 06:35:07 mapcan on quoted data is bad 06:35:41 mishoo [~mishoo@93.113.190.121] has joined #lisp 06:35:59 yeah stassats explained me that modifiying a constant is undefinied behvaour and a quoted list is a constant. 06:36:21 prxq [~mommer@mnhm-5f75f435.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 06:36:34 -!- eldariof [~CLD@pppoe-196-60-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:36:46 Indeed, thanks. 06:37:36 Perfect got it to work, thanks! 06:44:45 CrazyEddy [~arbaleste@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 06:44:55 -!- CADD [~CADD@12.227.104.109] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:45:23 -!- carlo5m [~carlo5m@c-71-198-252-62.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:45:34 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-185-168-200.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:45:49 CADD [~CADD@12.227.104.109] has joined #lisp 06:48:55 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@1.149.57.161] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 06:50:14 Shinmera [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 06:56:05 xificurC [xificurC@nat/ibm/x-seadvenxehozdnir] has joined #lisp 06:57:07 weie [~eie@softbank221078042071.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 07:00:28 -!- weie_ [~eie@softbank221078042071.bbtec.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:03:24 angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has joined #lisp 07:03:34 -!- coreytrevor [~ma@78.129.153.58] has quit [Quit: leaving] 07:04:06 -!- syrinx [~quassel@unaffiliated/syrinx-/x-4255893] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:04:11 agumonkey [~agu@144.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 07:06:28 -!- jstypo [~jstypo@190.75.126.8] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:10:23 -!- mns [~mns@c-24-63-187-147.hsd1.vt.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:15:44 DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@110.150.72.255] has joined #lisp 07:15:45 -!- ejohnson [~Thunderbi@c-67-181-201-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:15:46 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-52-236.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:15:51 carlo5m [~carlo5m@c-71-198-252-62.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:18:00 nha_ [~prefect@koln-5d815d80.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 07:18:02 mns [~mns@c-24-63-187-147.hsd1.vt.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:18:50 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@110.150.72.255] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:19:01 DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@110.150.72.255] has joined #lisp 07:19:43 -!- spacefrogg^ is now known as spacefrogg 07:21:03 Gooder` [~user@218.69.12.194] has joined #lisp 07:22:45 iqool [c2371a08@gateway/web/freenode/ip.194.55.26.8] has joined #lisp 07:23:36 ejohnson [~Thunderbi@c-67-181-201-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:24:28 -!- carlo5m [~carlo5m@c-71-198-252-62.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:25:43 -!- Gooder [~user@17.155.200.192.client.dyn.strong-in144.as13926.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:25:45 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@110.150.72.255] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 07:27:30 klltkr [~klltkr@unaffiliated/klltkr] has joined #lisp 07:28:59 nostoi [~nostoi@180.Red-79-158-218.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 07:31:48 -!- Fare [~fare@cpe-69-203-115-132.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:34:11 -!- McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:35:26 ck`` [~ck@dslb-094-219-233-110.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 07:36:40 varjag [uid4973@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-bogewwsdjehbcxoa] has joined #lisp 07:36:59 McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has joined #lisp 07:41:15 -!- harish [harish@nat/redhat/x-odyefbehehvohmpa] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:43:54 -!- anaumov_ is now known as anaumov 07:43:56 -!- anaumov [~an@niobe.agnitas.de] has quit [Changing host] 07:43:56 anaumov [~an@opensuse/member/Alexander-Naumov] has joined #lisp 07:45:30 jewel [~jewel@105-237-24-51.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 07:45:55 -!- ffilozov [598c7a17@gateway/web/freenode/ip.89.140.122.23] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 07:46:32 Is is a built-in facility in Common Lisp which tells if given form is self-referenced? Something like (self-eval-p form). 07:47:01 -!- zRecursive [~czsq888@171.217.23.168] has left #lisp 07:47:45 could you give an example of such a self-referenced form? 07:49:50 Mathieu__ [~cicak@203.127.16.194] has joined #lisp 07:49:53 t 07:50:03 :key 07:50:17 ah a form that evaluates to itself 07:50:23 Yes. 07:50:38 I don't think there's a built in 07:50:43 you could write a macro yourself 07:51:18 -!- Mathieu__ is now known as Mathieu 07:52:47 Ok, thanks. 07:56:16 -!- mns [~mns@c-24-63-187-147.hsd1.vt.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:02:54 peterhil [~peterhil@158.127.31.162] has joined #lisp 08:06:01 -!- nostoi [~nostoi@180.Red-79-158-218.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 08:07:34 vi1 [~vi1@93.92.216.186] has joined #lisp 08:08:52 -!- ejohnson [~Thunderbi@c-67-181-201-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:09:02 mns [~mns@c-24-63-187-147.hsd1.vt.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:09:07 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-131-74.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 08:09:21 harish [~harish@119.234.182.39] has joined #lisp 08:09:41 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 08:13:16 -!- Shark8 [~Shark8@69-20-190-126.static.ida.net] has quit [] 08:13:35 arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-dhwujeiawdogtepa] has joined #lisp 08:14:31 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 08:15:01 -!- chu [~user@unaffiliated/chu] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 08:15:27 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:16:19 benkard [~benkard@mnch-5d859fdb.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 08:16:23 -!- setmeaway2 [setmeaway3@119.201.52.138] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:18:08 rszeno [~rszeno@79.114.92.16] has joined #lisp 08:20:44 -!- easye [~user@213.33.70.157] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:21:05 carlo5m [~carlo5m@c-71-198-252-62.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:21:07 easye [~user@213.33.70.157] has joined #lisp 08:22:04 -!- harish [~harish@119.234.182.39] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:22:07 bitonic` [~user@ppp-243-184.27-151.libero.it] has joined #lisp 08:22:15 -!- rotty [rotty@yade.xx.vu] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 08:24:38 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:26:00 -!- Harag [~Thunderbi@41-132-83-33.dsl.mweb.co.za] has quit [Quit: Harag] 08:28:43 -!- walter [~walter@c-24-218-217-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:29:18 walter [~walter@c-24-218-217-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:29:47 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 08:29:52 -!- carlo5m [~carlo5m@c-71-198-252-62.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:31:05 in cl-heap how am I supposed to decrease a value in the heap when there is no way to check the current value in it? 08:31:48 decrease-key throws an error if you try to change its value do a higher one but I see no way how to check the current value 08:32:34 Harag [~Thunderbi@41-132-83-33.dsl.mweb.co.za] has joined #lisp 08:35:31 -!- nha_ [~prefect@koln-5d815d80.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:41:50 -!- CrazyEddy [~arbaleste@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:43:09 -!- mcsontos_ [~mcsontos@77.240.184.15] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:45:50 -!- klltkr [~klltkr@unaffiliated/klltkr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:47:34 -!- bitonic` is now known as bitonic 08:47:38 or noone uses cl-heap :) 08:51:57 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 08:52:32 harish [~harish@cm32.zeta224.maxonline.com.sg] has joined #lisp 08:56:31 decrease-key uses an item-index. if you saved that away, you should have saved the item value too :) 08:57:08 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 08:59:39 CrazyEddy [~valet@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 09:00:07 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 09:00:14 mal___: am i an idiot or what :) Thanks 09:00:19 -!- krrrcks_ [~dbr@krrrcks.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:01:27 yacks [~py@103.6.158.102] has joined #lisp 09:01:40 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:02:12 -!- naeg [~naeg@170-18-182-46.NbIServ.com] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.2] 09:03:07 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 09:04:28 -!- CrazyEddy [~valet@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Quit: .] 09:05:33 CrazyEddy [~knolly@113.52.233.162] has joined #lisp 09:05:45 -!- CrazyEddy [~knolly@113.52.233.162] has quit [Changing host] 09:05:45 CrazyEddy [~knolly@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 09:09:18 -!- nug700 [~nug700@174-26-137-145.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: bye] 09:11:05 zorkmoid [c2ed8e07@gateway/web/freenode/ip.194.237.142.7] has joined #lisp 09:11:10 ;Good morning! 09:11:23 Things I will never understand is people doing (defun square (x) (* x x)) 09:13:20 -!- foreignFunction [~niksaak@ip-4761.sunline.net.ua] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:13:21 -!- Harag [~Thunderbi@41-132-83-33.dsl.mweb.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:13:26 it's called learning 09:13:48 overrated.... 09:13:49 you might recall doing that yourself, æons ago 09:14:47 i did, and still use ^2 :-) 09:15:50 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:15:53 -!- kanru [~kanru@118-163-10-190.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 09:16:17 kanru [~kanru@118.163.10.190] has joined #lisp 09:16:46 cscorp [~csorp@c-98-230-174-67.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:18:08 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 09:21:07 nop0x07bc [~pon1980@h208n7-haes-a12.ias.bredband.telia.com] has joined #lisp 09:22:38 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:22:58 zorkmoid: You mean (defun square (x) (expt x 2))? 09:23:20 Why? Is it significantly more efficient? :-s 09:25:09 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 09:25:15 fds: it is more typing, doesn't really bring anything, and i meant (* x x) which is the same as (expt x 2)... 09:26:13 carlo5m [~carlo5m@c-71-198-252-62.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:26:31 -!- cscorp [~csorp@c-98-230-174-67.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: cscorp] 09:26:59 Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 09:26:59 -!- Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Client Quit] 09:27:10 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 09:29:05 Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 09:29:07 ffilozov [598c7a17@gateway/web/freenode/ip.89.140.122.23] has joined #lisp 09:29:39 *shrug* some people might find (square x) more expressive / easier to read / whatnot. 09:30:07 FORMAT experts, is there a better way of doing this that doesn't require recursive calls to (FORMAT NIL ...)? 09:30:07 http://paste.lisp.org/display/138247 09:31:06 Is there any good learn-lisp-through-exercises type material? I suppose I could try SICP in lisp. 09:31:40 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:31:41 mstevens: I think the exercises in ANSI Common Lisp are helpful. 09:32:02 fe[nl]ix: Are you there? 09:32:10 mstevens: Have you read PCL? 09:32:54 loke: yes, but I think I need to write some actual code 09:32:58 foreignFunction [~niksaak@ip-4761.sunline.net.ua] has joined #lisp 09:33:01 ffilozov: I might be 09:33:39 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 09:33:41 -!- nop0x07bc [~pon1980@h208n7-haes-a12.ias.bredband.telia.com] has left #lisp 09:33:57 mstevens: PAIP, if you don't mind the special field it directs you to 09:34:19 zorkmoid: Oh, right, I see. Well, personally, I definitely prefer reading and writing (square somehugenumber) rather than (* somehugenumber somehugenumberagain) or (expt somehugenumberlet'sseeifyoucanfindtheexponent 2). :-) 09:34:35 -!- carlo5m [~carlo5m@c-71-198-252-62.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:34:57 zacharias [~zacharias@unaffiliated/zacharias] has joined #lisp 09:35:22 Regarding CFFI and Allegro CL 9.0, when making a foreign call the heap is not released. Is that intentional? 09:35:22 (* #1=somehugenumber #1#) ; just kidding 09:35:43 ffilozov: What do you mean "the heap is not released"? 09:36:34 -!- walter [~walter@c-24-218-217-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:36:50 spacefrogg: I like your thinking, but I am in the annoying position of knowing I own a copy but being unable to FIND it 09:37:20 walter [~walter@c-24-218-217-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:40:42 When defining a foreign call you can pass :allow-gc or :release-heap. I don't see these arguments use explicitly. Could I still pass them to defcfun? 09:40:53 doesthiswork [~Adium@174-31-178-247.tukw.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 09:40:57 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:42:10 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 09:42:30 loke: You could try this, it doesn't fix the double format call, but at least you only have one loop now. http://paste.lisp.org/display/138247#1 09:42:53 jstypo [~jstypo@190.75.126.8] has joined #lisp 09:43:47 loke: I'm making a foreign call which blocks, so GC can't run. I need to pass to CFFI some Allegro specific flags to release the heap. 09:43:53 loke: Do note that you need to change package to the package you defined the format-helper in to make it work. 09:45:22 hmm, there's an ANSI Common Lisp PDF, which I feel okay about seeing as I've actually got the book 09:46:15 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@158.127.31.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:46:40 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:49:08 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 09:49:19 loke: i have a small macro called FORMAT* that does format nil ... 09:49:30 or t ... depending on things 09:50:09 zorkmoid: what I really want is something like this: 09:50:13 fds: i find ^2 easier to read .. or as you say, expt x 2 ... 09:50:26 naeg [~naeg@170-18-182-46.NbIServ.com] has joined #lisp 09:50:44 (format t "~a [[~a ~a]]" 1 '(2 3)) => "1 2 3" 09:51:05 I.e, I want a part of the format string to apply to a list of arguments 09:51:58 In my example, the hypothetical [[ and ]] wraps a recursive processing 09:52:00 loke: that doesn't work ... you need to loop over the thing using the format loop constructs 09:52:24 fe[nl]ix: Forgot to mention you. Any idea how that could be done? 09:52:54 loke: "~a ~{~a ~a~}" 09:53:05 (format t "~a [[~{~a~}]]" 1 alist) ? 09:53:07 loke: http://www.ai.mit.edu/projects/iiip/doc/CommonLISP/HyperSpec/Body/sec_22-3-7-4.html 09:54:32 ah yes! I can use ~{. I didn't think of that as I've always seen it as an interation construct 09:54:53 (format t "~a ~{~a ~a~}" 1 '(2 3)) 09:55:33 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:56:13 interation? 09:56:17 for ~a~a inside you need '((2 3) .... ) 09:56:30 a list of lists 09:56:41 rszeno: not really ... 09:56:51 sorry, list of pairs 09:57:02 rszeno: if you have sublists you should use ~:{ though 09:57:04 second will be unbound? 09:57:36 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 09:57:40 rszeno: try it :-) 09:57:47 :) 09:59:05 nialo [~nialo@ool-18bbb124.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 09:59:24 given ~{~a ~a~} then the list needs to be dividable by 2 ... since you have two~a's... 09:59:33 i.e. '(1 2 3) would not work ... 09:59:37 1 2 3 4 would ... 09:59:42 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 10:00:51 arnsa [~arnsa@78-63-18-208.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 10:01:22 zorkmoid: I only iterate once anyway 10:01:26 so it's OK :-) 10:01:55 Sagane [~Sagane@177.100-226-89.dsl.completel.net] has joined #lisp 10:03:07 *rszeno* format is pretty complex and relative slow but powerfull 10:03:20 -!- nialo [~nialo@ool-18bbb124.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:04:10 slow? 10:04:22 don't know if i find format complex .. 10:06:39 for example ~?, ~[, and all the :, @, stuff 10:07:56 ffilozov: what kind of flag ? please point me to the documentation 10:09:31 -!- kanru [~kanru@118.163.10.190] has quit [Excess Flood] 10:09:51 kanru [~kanru@118-163-10-190.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 10:10:10 rszeno: ~[ is just a conditional .. and ~? just means that the next arg is a format control string ... 10:10:31 fe[nl]ix, clhs seems down but is about recursive and conditional 10:10:44 there's a clhs mirror 10:10:55 yes, i know what they do 10:12:22 and @ and : are just modifiers ... 10:12:39 my favourite is ~* though ... 10:12:58 if i'm not wrong ~? is not only 'next arg' 10:13:11 rszeno: your not :-) 10:13:28 badly worded on my part. 10:14:11 ok, :) anyway i have a lot of thing to learn about formating this why i said is complex 10:15:29 about slow, i was thinking to (format nil ..) vs. (concatenate ..) 10:19:56 fe[nl]ix, http://www.ai.mit.edu/projects/iiip/doc/CommonLISP/HyperSpec/Body/sec_22-3-7.html i can say all 22.3.7.x but probably 22.3.7.[45] is not so diffcult 10:20:10 -!- ck`` [~ck@dslb-094-219-233-110.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 277 seconds] 10:20:51 rszeno: why are you telling that to me ? 10:22:23 sorry i missunderstand what you said, "ffilozov: what kind of flag ? please point me to the documentation" :) 10:22:23 fe[nl]ix: See http://www.franz.com/support/documentation/9.0/doc/operators/ff/def-foreign-call.htm. In particular, look at "release-heap" and "allow-gc". 10:23:50 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:23:53 -!- echo-area [~user@182.92.247.2] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:28:41 peterhil [~peterhil@158.127.31.162] has joined #lisp 10:30:20 ffilozov: please send an email to the mailing list 10:30:40 DalekBaldwin [~Adium@71-84-34-33.dhcp.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has joined #lisp 10:30:56 luis needs to weigh in on this 10:31:11 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 10:31:22 carlo5m [~carlo5m@c-71-198-252-62.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:31:42 fe[nl]ix: Alright. Thanks. 10:32:52 -!- DalekBaldwin1 [~Adium@71-84-34-33.dhcp.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:34:09 kiuma [~kiuma@195.65.61.100] has joined #lisp 10:35:29 killerboy [~mateusz@195.225.68.249] has joined #lisp 10:38:16 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:38:16 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.13.204] has joined #lisp 10:38:16 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.13.204] has quit [Changing host] 10:38:16 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 10:39:42 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 10:39:45 -!- carlo5m [~carlo5m@c-71-198-252-62.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:41:19 *mstevens* tries doing some of the project euler problems 10:44:28 Krystof [~user@81.174.155.115] has joined #lisp 10:44:59 kpal [~kpal@janus-nat-128-240-225-120.ncl.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 10:46:29 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 10:47:11 sighs ... never liked that SORT is destructive... 10:48:07 -!- kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:48:14 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 10:52:38 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:53:18 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ho1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 10:53:42 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 10:54:28 -!- agumonkey [~agu@144.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:55:20 BitPuffin [~quassel@s193-13-104-175.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 10:55:22 I always forget to get slime to do anything you actually have to start it 10:55:34 I open a .lisp file and get confused by the menu-with-no-options 10:57:06 mstevens: if you cannot get over it, why not write some emacs lisp to remind you that slime needs to be started when you open a lisp file 10:57:15 mstevens: or even start slime for you automatically? 10:58:40 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:59:42 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 11:02:27 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 11:05:02 kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 11:05:02 -!- zacharias [~zacharias@unaffiliated/zacharias] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:06:49 Does CASE always use #'EQ for comparison? Is there (perhaps in the libraries) a string-based CASE-workalike? 11:07:06 there's string-case 11:07:13 as a library in QL 11:07:20 case uses eql 11:07:34 antoszka: there's alexandria:switch 11:07:45 I'll have a look at both, thanks. 11:08:05 fe[nl]ix: yeah, but eql is not string-friendly anyway :) 11:08:16 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:09:31 antoszka: i usually dispatch on symbols and use find-symbol to find the choices 11:11:49 Right, wouldn't want to pollute my symbols with the stuff I have in mind. 11:12:05 because....? 11:13:19 I'll have all those funny symbols when tab-completing in the REPL :) 11:13:31 But, hm, maybe that will be the right track. 11:14:07 it is very straightforward. just don't intern strings coming from external sources. 11:15:28 -!- zoek1 [~zoek1@189.128.240.29] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:15:33 arare [~Aramur@153.68.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 11:16:28 ck`` [~ck@dslb-094-219-233-110.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 11:16:42 Has common lisp a facility for checking if given expression is a datum or a form? 11:17:09 "a datum or a form"? 11:17:21 "an atom or a list" maybe? 11:17:22 -!- Sagane [~Sagane@177.100-226-89.dsl.completel.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:17:26 spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 11:17:53 t for example is f form, but not a list 11:18:03 s/\ f\ /a/ 11:18:33 Or :key. 11:18:51 :key is what, in your language? a form or a datum? 11:19:07 it would be easier to discuss if you'd use clear terminology 11:19:43 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@195.65.61.100] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:19:53 Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has joined #lisp 11:20:50 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.13.29] has joined #lisp 11:20:50 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.13.29] has quit [Changing host] 11:20:50 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 11:21:12 What's wrong with terminology I use? 11:21:43 form and datum are not terms that are used to distinguish expressions in common lisp. forms are used when talking about source code. datum is not a word. 11:21:53 so, rounding up: everything is wrong :D 11:22:30 clhs consp 11:22:30 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_consp.htm 11:22:33 clhs listp 11:22:33 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_listp.htm 11:22:35 clhs atom 11:22:35 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_atom.htm 11:22:54 look at those three. and adopt the terminology used in the hyperspec 11:25:11 chu [~user@unaffiliated/chu] has joined #lisp 11:25:50 ehu` [~ehu@089144206050.atnat0015.highway.bob.at] has joined #lisp 11:26:45 cln, a guess, try: (defvar x 12) (devar y #'sqrt) (type-of x) (type-of y) 11:28:15 KDr2 [~KDr2@123.122.120.228] has joined #lisp 11:30:40 I talking not about types, but about lisp expressions. 11:31:09 Sadly lispworks is down, so I can not figure out what "clear terminology". 11:31:27 try mit mirror 11:31:43 cnl: http://www.ai.mit.edu/projects/iiip/doc/CommonLISP/HyperSpec/FrontMatter/Starting-Points.html 11:31:54 -!- Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 11:33:12 -!- walter [~walter@c-24-218-217-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:34:01 walter [~walter@c-24-218-217-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:34:30 site:www.ai.mit.edu/projects/iiip/doc/CommonLISP/HyperSpec "lisp form" gives two results. 11:34:45 And much more for site:www.ai.mit.edu. 11:34:46 cnl: are you trying to be smart or are you looking for help? 11:35:20 I'm trying to understand what wrong in my terminology. 11:35:23 For now. 11:35:41 To form my question correctly. 11:35:43 a lisp form is a source-level construct which makes sense only when talking about lisp source file 11:35:56 cln, look to glossary 11:36:18 a datum is anything. there is no meaning attached to datum, and it does not make sense to distinguish a form from a datum because a form is a datum (or can be considered to be one). 11:36:26 carlo5m [~carlo5m@c-71-198-252-62.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:36:30 cnl: foo is a form, (foo) is also a form. 11:37:18 I talking about source file. I have a macro which processes function's parameters and I need to know if it can eval them or not. 11:37:52 cnl: show us the macro 11:39:44 It's incomplete. http://paste.lisp.org/+2YOB 11:40:05 protist [~protist@44.172.69.111.dynamic.snap.net.nz] has joined #lisp 11:41:07 cnl: and what do you want to check? 11:41:35 or rather, what is input and what is what you want out... 11:41:44 -!- chu [~user@unaffiliated/chu] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 11:43:29 (gen-param-list (fake-func :key val :key (another-macro ...) (cons 1 . 2))) for example. I want to check if I can eval elements of (rest (fake-function-call). 11:43:54 cnl: Why? 11:44:40 To eval what can be evaluated. 11:45:07 no clue what you mean with "if i can eval ..." 11:45:16 just about anything given the right circumstances can be evaled in lisp 11:45:19 -!- carlo5m [~carlo5m@c-71-198-252-62.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:45:27 cnl: give an example 11:45:42 cnl: what would be something that you "can eval"? 11:45:56 maxter [~maxter@gaffeless.chaperon.volia.net] has joined #lisp 11:46:37 and something you cannot eval . 11:48:08 Everything compiler can (eval ...). (eval t) for example. (eval (1 . 2)) gives error. 11:48:57 cnl: evaluability depends on the environment. (foo) could be evaluable or not depending on whether a function foo being defined. 11:49:01 cnl: I mean a higher level of why. These low-level ideas are not clear. 11:49:12 What are you making? 11:49:16 cnl: use a restart on syntax errors. 11:49:34 :-) 11:50:27 cnl: the answer to your original question is: there is no function in common lisp that tells you whether a certain expression can be evaluated. 11:51:03 H4ns, now I got it. Thanks. 11:52:31 cnl, i have the feeling you write a lisp interpreter in lisp. Maybe you need to rethink what you do. 11:53:23 Xach, philosophical "why"? Don't now. Thinking of it turns me to depression. 11:54:33 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:54:37 Lefeni [~Lefeni@109.58.144.1.bredband.tre.se] has joined #lisp 11:55:12 -!- Trenif [~Lefeni@c-d24be555.143-16-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:56:29 cnl: it would probably be sufficient if you tried to explain what you want your fake-function-call macro to do. 11:58:12 cnl: In general, the desire to use EVAL on certain inputs to a macro is a sign of incomplete design. It is more typical to expand into code that incorporates the input in positions that will be evaluated at runtime, not macroexpansion time. 11:59:22 r1ghtbyte [~r1ghtbyte@p5DCBB51E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 12:00:20 And explaining the deeper why of why you want to do something can help others make good suggestions instead of low-level guesses. 12:00:28 H4ns, I wanted my macro could check parameters of function it accepts. I got where I was wrong. Problem's irrelevant. 12:00:47 cnl: you are explaning what you want to do, not why. 12:01:03 Harag [~Thunderbi@41-132-83-33.dsl.mweb.co.za] has joined #lisp 12:01:05 Ah. 12:01:27 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 12:02:37 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 12:06:59 setmeaway [~setmeaway@119.201.52.138] has joined #lisp 12:07:58 zacharias [~zacharias@unaffiliated/zacharias] has joined #lisp 12:09:10 Trying to explain why, I figured out how silly it was. 12:09:54 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 12:11:41 things i hate today, sort being destructive, and max/min not being defined as &rest numbers instead of number &rest numbers ... sighs... 12:13:04 -!- ehu` [~ehu@089144206050.atnat0015.highway.bob.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:13:39 -!- doesthiswork [~Adium@174-31-178-247.tukw.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:14:38 Trenif [~Lefeni@c-d24be555.143-16-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 12:14:52 zorkmoid: Do any implementations actually define min/max that way? Spot-checking LW and SBCL show they use number &rest numbers. 12:15:26 nope 12:15:33 which is wrong .... 12:15:45 :-) 12:16:06 Xach: defining it as "&rest numbers" would be not according to standard ... i think... 12:16:12 max &rest reals+ 12:16:18 -!- Lefeni [~Lefeni@109.58.144.1.bredband.tre.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:16:28 so at least one real ... 12:16:49 oh, reals+. misread. 12:17:04 yeah, &rest real* would have been better imho 12:17:09 so what would (min) return ? 12:17:13 42 12:17:16 grouzen [~user@195.238.93.36] has joined #lisp 12:17:47 there's a precedent with #'+ 12:17:49 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:18:00 fe[nl]ix: error 12:18:18 zorkmoid: Why would it be better that way? 12:18:24 no clue, i'm just annoyed 12:19:04 sort is expensive since min and max require a single iteration over the list 12:19:10 -!- CADD [~CADD@12.227.104.109] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:19:17 -!- antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:19:18 -!- zacharias [~zacharias@unaffiliated/zacharias] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:20:31 antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 12:20:37 sykopomp [~sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 12:21:52 knob [~knob@76.76.202.244] has joined #lisp 12:22:12 *rszeno* i'm guessing too much sometimes, (min list-of-numbers) vs. (car (sort list-of-numbers #<)) 12:22:18 -!- yati [~yati@122.169.66.209] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:23:12 zorkmoid: but how would you define the group (min, R^) ? 12:24:04 -!- Mathieu [~cicak@203.127.16.194] has quit [Quit: Mathieu] 12:24:11 fe[nl]ix: 42 12:24:25 it isn't like cl has its roots in pure mathematics... 12:25:07 it would make some sense for (min) to return double-float-positive-infinity 12:29:43 -!- paddymahoney [~patrick@198-84-186-52.cpe.teksavvy.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:32:23 -!- myrkraverk 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[~thomas@vpn-ho1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 13:06:43 paddymahoney [~patrick@24.137.221.230] has joined #lisp 13:07:13 zacharias [~zacharias@unaffiliated/zacharias] has joined #lisp 13:10:32 -!- zacharias [~zacharias@unaffiliated/zacharias] has quit [Client Quit] 13:11:12 -!- benkard [~benkard@mnch-5d859fdb.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com] 13:12:30 -!- grouzen [~user@195.238.93.36] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:13:36 -!- r1ghtbyte [~r1ghtbyte@p5DCBB51E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: leaving] 13:16:09 -!- sellout [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:17:36 sellout [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:21:54 Fare [~fare@cpe-69-203-115-132.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:22:17 mm... it must be monday ... today is not going good ... been mixing up zero based indxing and oen based indexing... 13:27:29 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@70.114.215.220] has quit [Quit: normanrichards] 13:30:25 -!- victor_lowther [~victor.lo@2602:306:3b84:f610:e1fb:316b:70de:61e0] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:31:15 oleo [~oleo@xdsl-84-44-178-155.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 13:35:29 pierre1 [~pierre1@179.218.154.208] has joined #lisp 13:38:49 -!- rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Quit: rpg] 13:40:24 normanrichards [~normanric@mobile-166-147-066-186.mycingular.net] has joined #lisp 13:42:09 zorkmoid, maybe a movie, a book, a bear, or something else and start again later. usualy this works for me in such cases 13:42:27 nialo- [~yaaic@66-87-116-36.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 13:42:30 rszeno: wish my clients would tell me that :-) 13:43:01 -!- kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:44:35 they don't know or care what we do and usualy starting later relaxed we are more productive so is nothing delayed, :) 13:44:40 joe9 [~user@ip70-179-153-227.fv.ks.cox.net] has joined #lisp 13:45:20 rszeno: tell that to the two postdocs that dropped by screaming that their analysis run was wrong because of me :P 13:46:12 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-185-168-200.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:46:38 carlo5m [~carlo5m@c-71-198-252-62.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:47:36 we work to live not live to work, and overall must be a pleasure, both work and free time, :) 13:47:46 to philosophical for me... 13:48:57 maybe, anyway when something start to go wrong and we know the feeling attract new problems, at least for me 13:49:50 antgreen [green@nat/redhat/x-ilbjptdmqrnxeeth] has joined #lisp 13:50:28 -!- jsn [~user@c-50-156-35-98.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:51:22 What's the best way to implement a functionality similar to in-package? 13:51:34 Shinmera: why do you need to do that? 13:52:08 I'm working on a system that defines web-apps as modules and has a macro to create pages with, I don't want to explicitely have to state the module every page definition. 13:52:17 -!- petrounias [~petrounia@ppp-2-85-43-174.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Quit: petrounias] 13:52:20 chameco [~samuel@c-50-163-34-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:52:29 So I thought something like an (in-module :thing) would be a good shorthand 13:52:53 why not redefine how you do things, and just use in-package? 13:52:54 petrounias [~petrounia@ppp-2-85-43-174.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 13:53:08 that's... not a useful suggestion 13:54:06 Shinmera: in-package just sets *package*, with some special behavior on the top level 13:54:23 Shinmera: You can just make a form that sets a special variable *module* in the same way 13:54:35 -!- yacks [~py@103.6.158.102] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:54:47 dlowe: fail to see why not, i've done it once or twice, was easy and made code readable... a bit of misuse maybe but still. 13:54:54 Does SLIME automatically keep track of that as well then or would there be problems if I start recompiling functions in different files without evaluating the in-module every time? 13:54:58 -!- carlo5m [~carlo5m@c-71-198-252-62.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:55:24 Shinmera: no, slime would not keep track of it. There's special handling for the in-package clause in slime 13:55:31 Welp 13:55:56 I've also thought about binding the module to the package symbol, but that seems a bit too hack-y for me. 13:56:36 <`26> Stupid question here: doesn't *package* get interned in the current package? Or does the reader recognize it and make an exception? 13:56:52 `26: *package*'s home package is always common-lisp 13:57:22 so if your package didn't use CL, then *package* would indeed be local to your package 13:57:38 <`26> dlowe: that makes perfect sense. thanks. 13:58:07 I have a module-driven irc bot, and it works by using a class for the module, and then specialized methods to keep things separated 13:58:36 Shinmera: https://github.com/dlowe-net/orcabot/blob/master/src/module.lisp 13:58:47 It's not perfect, but it seems to work well enough 13:58:56 my defpage macro does that in the background, but it also executes a bunch of other functions to register the method for dispatch and initialize a bunch of things 13:59:36 mine just shoves the class name onto a list :p 14:00:53 statl [~statl@dslb-094-218-023-165.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 14:00:55 <`26> Since the channel motd doesn't give any links, what would be the best reference for proper software design (w.r.t. CL)? 14:00:59 I think I'll go the way of binding the module to the package symbol and if that doesn't work it'll just demand the module to be stated explicitly, I suppose. 14:01:21 `26: you say that like people know what proper software design is 14:01:40 in any language 14:01:58 minion: tell `26 about paip 14:01:58 paip: No definition was found in the first 5 lines of http://www.cliki.net/paip 14:02:01 there's no proper software design, only design methods that all work more or less depending on your specific situation 14:02:02 minion: tell `26 about PIAP 14:02:03 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``PIAP''. 14:02:05 really? 14:02:08 `26: I like the examples set by Practical Common Lisp and Paradigms of AI Programming. 14:02:17 minion: tell `26 about PAIP 14:02:17 PAIP: No definition was found in the first 5 lines of http://www.cliki.net/PAIP 14:02:20 `26: I don't like the examples set by Let over Lambda or ANSI Common Lisp 14:02:26 -!- antgreen [green@nat/redhat/x-ilbjptdmqrnxeeth] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 14:02:31 I remember kind of liking Winston & Horn's "Lisp", 3rd edition 14:02:32 I didn't know minion was so cliki dependent now 14:02:48 I'm not a fan of W&H Lisp 14:02:51 Xach: I started trying to do the project euler problems, but they're a bit mathy 14:03:03 hyperboreean [~none@unaffiliated/hyperboreean] has joined #lisp 14:03:13 dlowe: Not even 3rd edition? I didn't read it very hard, but I remember the bits on CLOS agreed with me. 14:03:37 Xach: It was the first book on lisp I tried, and I found it very difficult to learn from. Perhaps I'd feel different now. 14:03:40 Xach: not that math is bad! I just didn't want it right now 14:04:19 Kruppe [~user@CPE602ad0938e9a-CM602ad0938e97.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 14:04:47 <`26> dlowe: So nobody actually knows what proper software design is? I guess every field has its unsolved problems. 14:05:28 I'd say some people pretend to know 14:05:29 `26: design is certainly more of an art still. We know it's good when we see it. 14:05:33 mstevens: I never found them all that interesting. I'm not sure how you'd transition from the euler problems to, say, generating an Atom feed. 14:05:39 we some some things to do and some things to avoid 14:05:44 <`26> dlowe, Xach: Thanks for the references. 14:05:47 but there's no guarantees 14:05:58 I the verb there 14:06:02 *we know 14:06:11 `26: SICP talks a bit about stratified design in software, and i like that concept. 14:06:22 dlowe: You free for dinner tomorrow for an informal Lisp meeting? 14:06:43 Ech, I need to get back to reading. Got way too many books stacked up on my shelf, still untouched. SICP being one of them. 14:06:46 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ho1.unidsl.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:06:47 Xach: I think so. I have to clear it with family 14:06:51 Xach: yeah I decided they might be fun for math but they weren't so good for learning lisp 14:07:01 My favorite method these days is to pretend that the modules of my program are running on different computers 14:07:26 So dependencies and interfaces have to be kept to a sharp minimum 14:08:30 and you can't bypass an interface for convenience 14:08:46 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 14:08:53 I need to dig out my copy of PAIP 14:08:57 it's in one of 50 boxes 14:09:04 it's in the heavy one 14:09:15 dlowe: reminds me of http://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/3217374073660749@naggum.net.html 14:09:31 <`26> dlowe: What kind of interface do you use for that kind of separation? 14:10:18 -!- statl [~statl@dslb-094-218-023-165.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 14:10:28 Xach: It pleases me when I find that I independently agree with Naggum 14:10:33 -!- bitonic [~user@ppp-243-184.27-151.libero.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:10:40 -!- jstypo [~jstypo@190.75.126.8] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:10:40 -!- kpal [~kpal@janus-nat-128-240-225-120.ncl.ac.uk] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 14:10:58 `26: depends on the problem. Nothing is going to familiarize you more than playing around with it 14:11:19 dlowe: reminds me of http://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/3167813769163543@naggum.no.html 14:11:19 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@mobile-166-147-066-186.mycingular.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:11:27 statl [~statl@dslb-094-218-023-165.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 14:11:44 *Xach* can continue like this indefinitely, stops instead 14:11:54 Xach: stratified design? (i'm a bit involved in logic programming which has a meaning for stratification are you talking about the same thing?) 14:13:14 j_king: I don't know what it means in logic programming, sorry. http://xach.com/lisp/changesafe.html has a paragraph on stratified design as SICP discusses it. 14:13:47 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:14:18 Karl_dscc [~localhost@ipdsw03.informatik.fh-schmalkalden.de] has joined #lisp 14:14:32 teggi [~teggi@123.25.129.139] has joined #lisp 14:16:22 Xach: ah, thanks. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stratification_(mathematics)#In_mathematical_logic if you're curious used in datalog/prolog type systems) 14:16:36 akbiggs [~akbiggs@64.215.160.65] has joined #lisp 14:18:09 -!- CrazyEddy [~knolly@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:18:10 antgreen [green@nat/redhat/x-pvwmcvwypbkxnjry] has joined #lisp 14:18:28 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-73-196.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:19:00 Juanito-Jons [~jreynoso@187.208.199.170] has joined #lisp 14:22:05 -!- statl [~statl@dslb-094-218-023-165.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 14:26:14 -!- chameco [~samuel@c-50-163-34-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 14:26:18 -!- nialo- [~yaaic@66-87-116-36.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:27:47 -!- pierre1 [~pierre1@179.218.154.208] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:27:57 fitzsim [~user@nat/cisco/x-nqiwhwcjhtvyaazt] has joined #lisp 14:28:03 pierre1 [~pierre1@179.218.154.208] has joined #lisp 14:28:54 _d3f [~gnu@46.183.216.234] has joined #lisp 14:29:16 jsn [~user@2601:9:2980:1ab:4df2:9473:f399:47c2] has joined #lisp 14:29:46 -!- dfox [~dfox@94.142.237.120] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:30:03 dfox [~dfox@94.142.237.120] has joined #lisp 14:30:12 -!- oleo [~oleo@xdsl-84-44-178-155.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 14:30:42 oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-177-230.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:31:46 normanrichards [~normanric@rrcs-108-178-120-144.sw.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:32:09 yacks [~py@103.6.158.102] has joined #lisp 14:33:31 -!- antgreen [green@nat/redhat/x-pvwmcvwypbkxnjry] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:33:51 -!- pierre1 [~pierre1@179.218.154.208] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:35:29 -!- xificurC [xificurC@nat/ibm/x-seadvenxehozdnir] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:36:01 -!- teggi [~teggi@123.25.129.139] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:36:55 CrazyEddy [~vesiculob@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 14:37:01 sykopomp` [~sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 14:38:16 -!- BitPuffin [~quassel@s193-13-104-175.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:38:33 jstypo [~jstypo@190.75.126.8] has joined #lisp 14:39:23 nialo- [~yaaic@66-87-116-36.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 14:40:04 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:40:08 -!- KDr2 [~KDr2@123.122.120.228] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:40:50 nha_ [~prefect@koln-5d815d80.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 14:44:13 hugoduncan [~user@bas1-montreal08-1279346953.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 14:45:39 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-185-168-200.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:46:18 -!- hugod [~user@bas1-montreal08-1279564564.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:46:34 oh nice jrm's changesafe code is now available!? 14:47:41 rpg [~rpg@23-25-144-220-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 14:48:47 hi Fare :) 14:48:49 Yes 14:49:00 Corman CL is not available yet though. 14:49:54 Denommus [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/denommus] has joined #lisp 14:50:11 I'm having problems compiling the sbcl docs from source 14:51:42 carlo5m [~carlo5m@c-71-198-252-62.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:52:15 What trouble? 14:52:15 -!- carlo5m [~carlo5m@c-71-198-252-62.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:52:31 carlo5m [~carlo5m@c-71-198-252-62.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:53:55 Xach: this is the stderr http://paste.lisp.org/+2YOD 14:55:37 -!- smull [~smull@port-212-202-120-50.static.qsc.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:56:50 marijn [~user@p4FC97F98.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 14:57:01 -!- rpg [~rpg@23-25-144-220-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:57:05 -!- marijn [~user@p4FC97F98.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has left #lisp 14:57:10 rpg [~rpg@23-25-144-217-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 14:57:12 do you have texinfo installed? 14:58:23 zorkmoid: yes, it's one of the core components of my distro 14:58:30 thehandler [~this@41.89.164.16] has joined #lisp 14:59:25 <|3b|> https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/1189146 ? 15:00:09 doesthiswork [~Adium@174-31-178-247.tukw.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 15:00:58 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:01:02 |3b|: yes, it seems like it 15:01:04 smull [~smull@port-212-202-120-50.static.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 15:01:43 -!- thehandler [~this@41.89.164.16] has quit [Client Quit] 15:02:05 |3b|: but no solution? 15:02:42 <|3b|> not that i've heard of, aside from maybe finding older texinfo to build it with 15:07:23 m104 [~m104@mobile-166-137-187-025.mycingular.net] has joined #lisp 15:07:24 fenton [~fenton@ppp-124-121-1-90.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 15:07:33 -!- m104 [~m104@mobile-166-137-187-025.mycingular.net] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 15:09:11 -!- carlo5m [~carlo5m@c-71-198-252-62.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:09:13 Denommus` [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/denommus/x-89635553] has joined #lisp 15:10:19 |3b|: I'm not sure if you received my last message, but there is a texinfo-legacy package in AUR. I'll use it. Thanks 15:10:20 needs someone to look at and understand things 15:10:21 victor_lowther [~victorlow@143.166.116.80] has joined #lisp 15:10:29 -!- Denommus [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/denommus] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:11:38 sohail [~Adium@69-165-138-8.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 15:11:38 -!- sohail [~Adium@69-165-138-8.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Changing host] 15:11:38 sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 15:12:34 -!- Denommus` is now known as Denommus 15:12:48 -!- Denommus [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/denommus/x-89635553] has quit [Changing host] 15:12:48 Denommus [~user@unaffiliated/denommus] has joined #lisp 15:12:48 -!- Denommus [~user@unaffiliated/denommus] has quit [Changing host] 15:12:48 Denommus [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/denommus/x-89635553] has joined #lisp 15:15:38 you could probably fix a huge number of warnings by having the lw macro in texinfo-macros be defined differently @iftex and @ifnottex, instead of including in its definition @iftex/@ifnottex 15:16:37 Krystof: texinfo-legacy solved my problem, for now. When I have the time I'll try to patch the docs to use the latest texinfo 15:16:42 Krystof: but now I have to go back to work 15:16:48 Krystof: thanks :) 15:16:51 if you do, please retain support for old texinfo too! 15:16:52 good luck 15:19:17 Danishman [~kvirc@62-243-156-218-static.dk.customer.tdc.net] has joined #lisp 15:21:31 actually, just for my interest, could you try rebuilding the docs with texinfo5 and the patch from http://www.doc.gold.ac.uk/~mas01cr/tmp/foo.diff ? 15:23:15 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:23:24 krishnak [~krishnak@63.251.54.158] has joined #lisp 15:23:53 Krystof: no, it gives me some error at the end 15:24:18 ok, but does it give fewer warnings and errors than in the launchpad bug log? 15:24:59 it seems so 15:27:00 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 15:27:49 kiuma [~kiuma@2-230-138-74.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 15:30:58 -!- arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-dhwujeiawdogtepa] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:32:46 -!- Kruppe [~user@CPE602ad0938e9a-CM602ad0938e97.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:33:03 Mathieu [~cicak@42.61.225.221] has joined #lisp 15:39:28 Is documentation for Michael Parker's regex API available from somewhere? 15:39:37 carlo5m [~carlo5m@c-71-198-252-62.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:39:45 -!- sykopomp` is now known as sykopomp 15:40:19 Can't find it nor at github, nor at package homepage. 15:41:17 cnl: most people use cl-ppcre nowadays. why do you want parker's? 15:41:29 brown [user@nat/google/x-ejpfbpoxpcwzedgm] has joined #lisp 15:41:52 -!- brown is now known as Guest15370 15:42:38 I just dont like PPCRE. Ordinary classic regexes fit my needs. 15:43:00 *shrug* 15:43:25 cnl: I don't think there is documentation aside from the source code. 15:44:17 agumonkey [~agu@144.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 15:44:19 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 15:46:05 elkng [~elkng@unaffiliated/elkng] has joined #lisp 15:46:21 is it possible for the average joe to learn lisp ? 15:47:00 elkng: I like Common Lisp because it is easier than anything else I have tried so far. 15:47:42 -!- ffilozov [598c7a17@gateway/web/freenode/ip.89.140.122.23] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 15:48:07 -!- carlo5m [~carlo5m@c-71-198-252-62.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 15:48:29 elkng, since I happen to be a sort of ordinary Joe, hope it's possible. Also it's a lot of fun. 15:48:30 I don't think it takes exceptional skill to use Common Lisp. Exceptional skill is rewarded but less than exceptional is not, in my experience, punished. 15:49:18 However, Common Lisp does not limit the number of dumb things you can do, so I think you can possibly do more damage (in terms of bad-quality output) with laziness or carelessness in CL than in other padded-room, lock-and-key environments. 15:50:16 There's also some kind of division between details you can safely ignore and details you should not ignore and I'm not sure where it is. 15:51:15 -!- oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-177-230.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:51:17 i'd say that common lisp is not a particularly friendly beginner language, but with a good tutorial text, motivation, a task and people to talk to, it can be suitable. 15:51:48 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 15:52:14 antgreen [green@nat/redhat/x-cjtpylzchabkpruv] has joined #lisp 15:52:52 H4ns: "not a particularly friendly", so its "common" part is misleading ? 15:53:13 That's not what the "Common" part means. 15:53:22 elkng: not at all. 'common' does not mean 'suitable for inexperienced programmes' at all. it means that it is the common lisp for all lisps. 15:53:24 Xach: what you said also apply to emacs-lisp ? 15:53:39 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:53:41 I'm more interested in emacs-lisp so far 15:53:43 elkng: I don't know about emacs lisp, sorry. I don't use it nearly as much as I use Common Lisp. 15:53:54 elkng: then please go to #emacs 15:54:02 after all that channel's name is #lisp not a #common-lisp 15:54:02 elkng: this language is about common lisp, specifically. 15:54:11 elkng: please see the topic. 15:54:12 elkng: This is a Common Lisp channel. 15:54:12 -!- Mathieu [~cicak@42.61.225.221] has quit [Quit: Mathieu] 15:55:00 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 15:56:56 snowp [~fh@192.81.217.194] has joined #lisp 15:57:28 jangle [~jimmy1984@dsl-164.7-238.gtb.net] has joined #lisp 15:57:54 oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-173-168.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 15:58:08 _cosmonaut_ [~eu5183@213.153.113.6] has joined #lisp 15:58:40 elkng: for what it's worth, I think that very modern emacs lisp (with lexical binding, the cl package, and so on) can be similar in beginner-friendliness to common lisp. without those facilities, it can be beginner-friendly as long as the only thing you want to do is to customize one particular editor 15:59:44 -!- rpg [~rpg@23-25-144-217-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:00:10 both are highly rewarding for experts, but in different ways: emacs lisp will reward you by allowing you to build powerful interfaces in a programmer's editing environment; common lisp places fewer restrictions on your application domain with its breadth of high-quality implementations 16:00:13 -!- _cosmonaut_ [~eu5183@213.153.113.6] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:00:56 sykopomp [~sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 16:00:59 catmtking [~catmtking@108-224-122-111.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:02:59 drmeister [~drmeister@166.137.87.159] has joined #lisp 16:03:59 -!- maxter [~maxter@gaffeless.chaperon.volia.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 16:06:31 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:07:14 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 16:07:18 -!- sellout [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:07:55 -!- ck`` [~ck@dslb-094-219-233-110.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:10:10 archonix [~unknown@78.90.30.16] has joined #lisp 16:11:16 -!- Harag [~Thunderbi@41-132-83-33.dsl.mweb.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:11:51 agr [~agr@177.207.191.2] has joined #lisp 16:14:49 -!- Danishman [~kvirc@62-243-156-218-static.dk.customer.tdc.net] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 16:15:36 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@158.127.31.162] has quit [Quit: Must not waste too much time here...] 16:16:32 elkng: Emacs Lisp is not very useful outside of Emacs (but it is not useless, either, elnode exists to prove it), and not as powerful as Common Lisp (it doesn't even have a package/namespace system), but it certainly is a fine language 16:16:40 -!- Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:16:45 elkng: although I got a lot better in ELisp after I learned CL 16:17:18 -!- oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-173-168.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 16:17:40 maxter [~maxter@gaffeless.chaperon.volia.net] has joined #lisp 16:17:54 oleo [~oleo@xdsl-87-79-248-214.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:18:06 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@95.56.65.5] has joined #lisp 16:18:06 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@95.56.65.5] has quit [Changing host] 16:18:06 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 16:18:30 *Xach* was pointed to http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2013-07/msg00794.html recently (there's more context in the whole thread) 16:20:21 _cosmonaut_ [~eu5183@nat-gw6.edb.se] has joined #lisp 16:20:55 -!- tcr [~tcr@77-56-40-229.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:20:58 -!- sdemarre [~serge@109.134.136.172] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:21:16 Xach: Stallman is an idiot in some subjects 16:22:36 -!- Oberon4278 [~dcrooksto@209-6-246-54.c3-0.wrx-ubr1.sbo-wrx.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [] 16:22:42 how can someone be all into free software and not listen the community based only on personal experience? 16:23:06 I also don't see how namespaces can be un-helpful... 16:23:31 I think the additional messages in the thread mitigate the apparent obtuseness of that message. 16:23:49 -!- jangle [~jimmy1984@dsl-164.7-238.gtb.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 16:24:14 bitonic [~user@ppp-243-184.27-151.libero.it] has joined #lisp 16:24:20 Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has joined #lisp 16:24:32 -!- fenton [~fenton@ppp-124-121-1-90.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 16:24:33 <`26> Another stupid question (from me): if you mutate lists/cons, when do you do so? 16:25:16 `26: any time it's useful. 16:25:37 <`26> Xach: could you give some examples? if you don't mind. 16:25:50 `26: for example, if you were using an alist to store a histogram, you would first look up the appropriate entry and then change its value. 16:25:50 benkard [~benkard@mnch-5d859fdb.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 16:26:01 -!- benkard [~benkard@mnch-5d859fdb.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:26:03 lol @ Stallman on package systems 16:26:11 Denommus: one cannot be 'all into' free software and freedom of speech and at the same time not develop a strong resistance to other people's opinions, you'd be swallowed whole by all of society's meek idiots 16:26:18 years of sutdies thrown in the toilet... 16:26:31 Denommus: sad but true 16:26:52 -!- nialo- [~yaaic@66-87-116-36.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:27:10 `26: Sorting a list (with CL:SORT) can also mutate it 16:27:26 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@166.137.87.159] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:27:27 s/sutdies/studies 16:27:33 joneshf-work [~joneshf@mail.concordusapps.com] has joined #lisp 16:27:35 sytse: having resistance on irrational things is ok, but goddamnit, it's a package system we're talking about 16:28:22 sytse: sometimes it seems that Stallman thinks that encapsulation and referential transparency is anti-free software, because it hides things :P 16:28:31 :P 16:28:33 ahahahah 16:28:34 s/is/are/ 16:28:38 -!- _cosmonaut_ [~eu5183@nat-gw6.edb.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:28:43 *Xach* is sorry he brought it up 16:28:46 <`26> Denommus: he should be against crypto too then 16:28:57 Let us discuss common lisp things now. 16:29:03 smazga [~acrid@64.55.45.194] has joined #lisp 16:29:04 Xach: indeed 16:29:10 -!- protist [~protist@44.172.69.111.dynamic.snap.net.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:29:51 `26: I can't think of a lot of examples of mutating conses or lists offhand. Usually when I want a thing I'm going to update I'll define a class or struct and mutate slots. Or use tables or vectors. I don't reach for conses or lists a lot that I can think of right now. 16:30:47 `26: about the only time I've mutated a cons is when implementing a FIFO queue 16:31:05 I have a feeling that I might soon realize some obvious case that I use all the time 16:31:13 drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has joined #lisp 16:31:13 `26: you can keep the last cons and quickly append to the end of a list 16:31:37 I think that's the only time I've done it in practice 16:32:10 Xach: Do plists and alists count? 16:32:12 I take that back, I think I've used (setf (getf ...) ...) 16:32:45 Shinmera: I don't feel like I often mutate them. I often extend them (via consing). 16:32:46 Xach: concatenating lists? 16:32:49 <`26> do CL implementations usually detect lists that will never get mutated and do optimizations like cdr coding on them? 16:32:55 `26: no. 16:32:55 (destructively) 16:33:03 sytse: Not very often. 16:33:04 arrdem [~arrdem@dhcp-53-132.ece.utexas.edu] has joined #lisp 16:33:06 or nreverse, and other n* 16:34:09 yeah, right.. concatenating lists could be a sign you should reverse the order in which you do things somehow (same with nreverse) 16:34:14 Xach: True enough, I thought I was mutating alists and plists plenty but now that I think about it more it doesn't seem frequent at all anymore. 16:34:49 alists and plists aren't that great for more than toy examples 16:34:52 -!- oleo [~oleo@xdsl-87-79-248-214.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 16:35:32 The only thing I can think of right now is when I use cl-json, as that generates an alist representation... 16:35:49 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:36:11 oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-184-171.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:36:16 ltbarcly [~textual@216.113.168.141] has joined #lisp 16:37:37 jangle [~jimmy1984@dsl-164.7-238.gtb.net] has joined #lisp 16:39:01 Straylight [~user@vpn.expressionanalysis.com] has joined #lisp 16:40:25 -!- Bike [~Glossina@71-222-34-2.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:40:47 -!- arrdem [~arrdem@dhcp-53-132.ece.utexas.edu] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:40:56 arrdem [~arrdem@dhcp-53-132.ece.utexas.edu] has joined #lisp 16:41:34 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-76-115-114-77.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:42:19 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-76-115-114-77.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:42:26 Bike [~Glossina@71-222-34-2.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 16:42:55 -!- Karl_dscc [~localhost@ipdsw03.informatik.fh-schmalkalden.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:44:04 -!- arrdem [~arrdem@dhcp-53-132.ece.utexas.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 16:44:12 arrdem [~arrdem@dhcp-53-132.ece.utexas.edu] has joined #lisp 16:45:04 -!- jstypo [~jstypo@190.75.126.8] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:47:32 chameco [~samuel@c-50-163-34-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:47:55 ejohnson [~Thunderbi@c-67-181-201-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:48:50 Shinmera: hm, I always think that JSON is better represented with hash tables 16:48:51 -!- Guest15370 [user@nat/google/x-ejpfbpoxpcwzedgm] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:48:54 Kruppe [~user@j2petkovich.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 16:49:06 -!- hugoduncan is now known as hugod 16:50:44 -!- brown`` is now known as reb 16:50:54 tcr [~tcr@77-56-40-229.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 16:50:58 Denommus: Alists work well for small json files like configs though, so I'm glad it uses them. Hash tables would definitely be better for large files though. 16:51:45 The library allows for Hash-table -> JSON, but not the other way around, which is a bit of a shame. 16:52:14 -!- `26 [~kvirc@gateway/tor-sasl/26/x-07558203] has quit [] 16:53:44 -!- spacefrogg is now known as spacefrogg^ 16:54:00 i thought cl-json let you define functions to translate stuff if you wanted 16:54:24 It probably does (haven't used that functionality myself), but I'm saying it has no standard way of doing it. 16:54:34 that said doing much besides iterating input into something more useful, especially for large input, is probably not a great idea anyway 16:55:07 "It is possible to switch CL-JSON into a mode where Arrays are decoded to Lisp vectors rather than lists, and Objects are decoded to CLOS objects in the manner described below" 16:55:08 -!- nicdev [user@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:4986] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:55:11 also that 16:55:21 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:55:40 it has a _lot_ of flexibility just at a glance of the docs :P 16:56:38 -!- dlowe [dlowe@digital.sanctuary.org] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net] 16:57:05 jstypo [~jstypo@190.75.126.8] has joined #lisp 16:57:20 "that book is dead sexy" -- Xach on #lisp 16:57:22 what is this ? 5 minutes of fame ? 16:57:28 Xach: 16:58:07 -!- chameco [~samuel@c-50-163-34-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:58:32 -!- xristos [x@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:feae:93ba] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:59:37 -!- justinmcp [quassel@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:3fac] has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.] 17:00:31 -!- tcr [~tcr@77-56-40-229.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:00:34 Xach: I mean, you know what "dead sexy" mean ? like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Necrophilia 17:00:41 justinmcp [quassel@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:3fac] has joined #lisp 17:00:43 dlowe [dlowe@digital.sanctuary.org] has joined #lisp 17:01:13 Hello, what tool (framework) can i use to make web services 17:02:30 Juanito-Jons: http://www.cliki.net/web%20framework 17:03:29 -!- ejohnson [~Thunderbi@c-67-181-201-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 17:03:35 Shinmera: ok 17:04:20 -!- justinmcp [quassel@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:3fac] has quit [Client Quit] 17:04:42 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:05:47 justinmcp [quassel@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:3fac] has joined #lisp 17:06:09 -!- Patzy [~something@lns-bzn-51f-81-56-151-137.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:06:32 -!- arrdem [~arrdem@dhcp-53-132.ece.utexas.edu] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 17:06:50 Patzy [~something@lns-bzn-51f-81-56-151-137.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 17:07:37 arrdem [~arrdem@dhcp-53-132.ece.utexas.edu] has joined #lisp 17:07:45 chameco [~samuel@c-50-163-34-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:08:31 Do I need to do something special to make emacs/slime have the proper indentation (2 spaces) on my macros with a body? 17:08:50 -!- jsn [~user@2601:9:2980:1ab:4df2:9473:f399:47c2] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:09:37 I'd say that proper indentation is content/form dependent rather than just N-spaces. 17:10:11 And yeah, seems to work OOTB for .lisp files wherever I run emacs. 17:10:46 -!- knob [~knob@76.76.202.244] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:11:27 -!- justinmcp [quassel@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:3fac] has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.] 17:12:03 justinmcp [quassel@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:3fac] has joined #lisp 17:13:33 http://paste.lisp.org/display/138260 17:13:33 ^ to clarify what I mean 17:14:01 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 17:15:00 -!- dan64 [dan64@dannyadam.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:16:00 -!- rszeno [~rszeno@79.114.92.16] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:16:11 -!- justinmcp [quassel@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:3fac] has quit [Client Quit] 17:17:11 -!- catmtking [~catmtking@108-224-122-111.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:17:36 "when you're programming in Common Lisp, you almost never find yourself wishing the language supported some feature that would make your program easier to write, because you can just add the feature yourself", does that means common lisp is the ultimate language ? 17:17:44 justinmcp [quassel@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:3fac] has joined #lisp 17:18:34 I mean when other languages can lack some feature or another and you should pick one that fits your needs, in case of common lisp you can just adjust language for your needs without searching for other language that fits you ? 17:19:40 there's some levels that you can't reach with common lisp, mostly having to do with runtime implementation 17:20:00 Shinmera: http://common-lisp.net/project/slime/doc/slime.pdf  if you look at 3.14 (funnily enough) it says that all macros with &body should be indented with two spaces as you'd expect. 17:20:03 with portable common lisp, I should say 17:20:54 elkng: I wouldn't say that Common Lisp is the proper language for systems programming, for instance 17:20:59 antoszka: Oh, right, &body instead of &rest. Thanks a lot. 17:21:04 Shinmera: np 17:21:19 elkng: but everything that you can do in high level languages, CL can be adapted to do 17:21:24 -!- justinmcp [quassel@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:3fac] has quit [Client Quit] 17:21:49 justinmcp [quassel@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:3fac] has joined #lisp 17:22:13 elkng: of course, you must search for the idiomatic way (you wouldn't use something equivalent to Ruby's method_missing to create a function in runtime, instead you'd use a macro that takes the input and generate some code in compile time) 17:22:42 You can use common lisp for systems programming 17:22:54 there was an sbcl-on-the-metal project that was pretty neat 17:22:59 no drivers, of course 17:23:00 dlowe: movitz 17:23:11 yeah, and movitz 17:23:42 dlowe: I don't know how have the runtime environment is, and that's important for systems programming 17:24:23 Denommus: that's a simple matter of education 17:24:30 dan64 [dan64@dannyadam.com] has joined #lisp 17:24:34 mncoder [~mncoder@72.166.95.2] has joined #lisp 17:25:04 lisp machines were lisp/assembly all the way down. It's just resources that keep us from having them again. 17:25:05 xristos [x@ns3.suspicious.org] has joined #lisp 17:25:08 -!- xristos is now known as Guest3782 17:25:30 -!- mncoder [~mncoder@72.166.95.2] has quit [Client Quit] 17:25:38 rpg [~rpg@23-25-144-217-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 17:25:46 ejohnson [~Thunderbi@c-67-181-201-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:25:46 mncoder [~mncoder@72.166.95.2] has joined #lisp 17:25:56 tcr [~tcr@77-56-40-229.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 17:26:13 There's been at least a couple Lisp machine on FPGA projects that progressed to working prototypes, IIRC 17:27:19 -!- justinmcp [quassel@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:3fac] has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.] 17:27:20 Still, without a lot of hardware drivers, it's all pretty doomed. 17:27:46 justinmcp [quassel@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:3fac] has joined #lisp 17:29:55 -!- antgreen [green@nat/redhat/x-cjtpylzchabkpruv] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:30:26 lukego's luajit fun seems promising. 17:31:22 -!- patrickwonders [~patrickwo@user-38q42ns.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:31:46 -!- justinmcp [quassel@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:3fac] has quit [Client Quit] 17:32:08 justinmcp [quassel@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:3fac] has joined #lisp 17:32:15 patrickwonders [~patrickwo@user-38q42ns.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 17:36:34 sykopomp [~sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 17:36:45 nicdev [user@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:4986] has joined #lisp 17:37:41 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:38:13 -!- justinmcp [quassel@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:3fac] has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.] 17:38:14 ISF [~ivan@201.82.138.219] has joined #lisp 17:38:50 justinmcp [quassel@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:3fac] has joined #lisp 17:39:15 -!- dan64 [dan64@dannyadam.com] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 17:40:42 nicdev` [user@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:4986] has joined #lisp 17:42:18 -!- paul0_ [~paul0@187.112.250.98] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:42:24 dan64 [dan64@dannyadam.com] has joined #lisp 17:42:51 antgreen [green@nat/redhat/x-xkqxdwqjgnodufoe] has joined #lisp 17:42:52 -!- Guest3782 [x@ns3.suspicious.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:42:54 -!- nicdev [user@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:4986] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:43:32 -!- Patzy [~something@lns-bzn-51f-81-56-151-137.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:44:01 nicdev [user@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:4986] has joined #lisp 17:44:30 Patzy [~something@lns-bzn-51f-81-56-151-137.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 17:45:22 -!- agumonkey [~agu@144.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:46:11 klltkr [~klltkr@unaffiliated/klltkr] has joined #lisp 17:46:15 -!- nicdev` [user@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:4986] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:47:38 xristos_ [x@ns3.suspicious.org] has joined #lisp 17:48:50 snits [~snits@inet-hqmc03-o.oracle.com] has joined #lisp 17:51:25 ffilozov [~user@84.77.187.252] has joined #lisp 17:51:50 -!- oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-184-171.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 17:53:29 oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-184-171.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 18:05:16 Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 18:05:50 -!- rpg [~rpg@23-25-144-217-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:05:55 -!- spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:09:22 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:10:04 -!- ISF [~ivan@201.82.138.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 18:15:27 MoALTz_ [~no@host86-142-161-139.range86-142.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 18:16:40 paidhi [~paidhi@chello084114142063.2.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 18:16:40 -!- Juanito-Jons [~jreynoso@187.208.199.170] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:18:24 Shouldn't labels accept free variables when defining a function? I can't get this to work: https://gist.github.com/PuercoPop/1caddd585bd4f5b32d43 18:19:21 -!- MoALTz [~no@host86-142-161-139.range86-142.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:19:28 PuercoPop: what happens when you try? 18:19:31 declare special smells bad, especially in only one place 18:19:35 why not use a defvar 18:19:44 eldariof [~CLD@pppoe-196-60-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has joined #lisp 18:20:03 or passing two arguments to recur 18:20:06 Oh, I see. 18:20:11 or putting the labels inside the with-output-file 18:20:21 PuercoPop: OUTPUT is not special in WITH-OPEN-FILE. 18:20:22 Xach: it complains about variable output being unbound 18:20:24 zoek1 [~zoek1@189.128.240.29] has joined #lisp 18:20:30 -!- paidhi [~paidhi@chello084114142063.2.15.vie.surfer.at] has left #lisp 18:20:36 I think I'll go with the tow arguments to recur way, Thanks Fare. 18:20:55 <|3b|> right, the with-open-file binds a lexical variable OUTPUT, not the special one 18:21:01 recur (node tow) 18:21:05 <|3b|> (assuming no global declaim for that name) 18:21:25 *|3b|* would probably put the labels inside the binding 18:21:30 declare special is a bad smell 18:21:46 it's usually bad practice in manually written code 18:22:11 Btw I read the linear lisp paper, so is the idea to implement a machine that does the atomic operators the paper describes and then implement a lisp on top of those operators? 18:22:37 yes, but not just that 18:23:17 the declare special was me trying to get it to work. I'm going to remove that declaration and just pass the sream as an extra argument 18:23:25 also 2- expose the primitives to the user 18:23:41 3- develop secure and/or resource-aware APIs on top of it 18:24:04 PuercoPop: why not nest the labels inside the with-open-file ? 18:24:42 lambda-lifting is for machines 18:25:46 iqool1 [~Thunderbi@2.173.18.38] has joined #lisp 18:26:09 -!- tankrim [~user@pdpc/supporter/active/tankrim] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 18:27:16 -!- eldariof [~CLD@pppoe-196-60-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 18:27:24 or why not split your function in two, one that works with a stream, the other that does the file opening wrapping? 18:27:33 that's how I usually factor the program 18:27:35 eldariof [~CLD@pppoe-196-60-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has joined #lisp 18:27:56 tephra [~tephra@31.7.186.167] has joined #lisp 18:28:07 unless I know for sure there will never, ever, be a reason to embed my stream into another stream 18:28:08 -!- asedeno [~asedeno@66.102.14.16] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:28:24 (e.g. if the operation requires seeking) 18:28:36 (I mean, CL:FILE-POSITION) 18:29:04 -!- iqool1 [~Thunderbi@2.173.18.38] has left #lisp 18:30:54 dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 18:31:33 *PuercoPop* nods 18:31:35 -!- Modius [~quassel@cpe-70-112-159-86.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:31:35 Modius [~quassel@cpe-70-112-159-86.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:32:34 asedeno [~asedeno@66.102.14.24] has joined #lisp 18:32:45 PuercoPop: what should your function do if no output-file is provided? 18:33:57 Juanito-Jons [~jreynoso@201.165.169.73] has joined #lisp 18:34:57 Write to a default file, which in this case is ~/tree.dot 18:35:05 Lefeni [~Lefeni@c-d24be555.143-16-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 18:35:36 Thanks. Your code is clear, I was just confused. 18:36:02 bon` [~user@kotona.demon.nl] has joined #lisp 18:36:09 I was thinking about string-streams and returning a string and how NIL is treated differently between FORMAT and most other stream output functions. 18:37:43 -!- Trenif [~Lefeni@c-d24be555.143-16-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:47:55 -!- chameco [~samuel@c-50-163-34-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:48:03 boogie [~boogie@wsip-98-172-168-236.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 18:49:48 erhandsome [~erhandsom@unaffiliated/erhandsome] has joined #lisp 18:53:25 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@rrcs-108-178-120-144.sw.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: normanrichards] 18:54:12 pjb [~user@AMontsouris-651-1-252-173.w92-163.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 18:54:33 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@216.113.168.141] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 18:54:35 -!- pjb is now known as Guest9465 18:57:00 Before I go do something stupid, does anyone here know of an Objc bridge for OS X? 18:58:11 CCL? 18:58:26 When using SBCL? 18:59:54 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@107.200.11.156] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:59:56 -!- jewel [~jewel@105-237-24-51.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 19:00:25 CCL is great, and it has its own bridge sure, but all thats needed for a bridge is basically wrapping several C functions that are well documented and come standard with OS X. 19:00:59 -!- agr [~agr@177.207.191.2] has quit [Quit: agr] 19:01:19 Just thought that someone would have wrapped them already. 19:02:52 -!- DalekBaldwin [~Adium@71-84-34-33.dhcp.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:06:52 Okay, I'm off to build me one then. 19:06:57 DalekBaldwin1 [~Adium@71-84-34-33.dhcp.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has joined #lisp 19:07:40 -!- ehu [~Erik@089144206050.atnat0015.highway.bob.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:07:44 There has to be that magic convergence of capability, desire, and availability. 19:08:03 Desire and time can turn into capability 19:08:05 I'm getting an error I can't make any sense of, it complains of root not being of type list but from the documentation I understand root shouldn't be of type list but an instance of the object I want to call the accessors of? https://gist.github.com/PuercoPop/62c6d61b4bcc793ad607 19:08:47 PuercoPop: you have to start pasting the output also instead of just the code. it makes things faster. 19:09:34 -!- froggey [~froggey@unaffiliated/froggey] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 19:09:39 -!- Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:09:46 *PuercoPop* nods 19:10:23 -!- ffilozov [~user@84.77.187.252] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:10:32 A backtrace can help too. 19:10:43 froggey [~froggey@unaffiliated/froggey] has joined #lisp 19:10:58 Updated it https://gist.github.com/PuercoPop/62c6d61b4bcc793ad607 19:13:07 Do you get that when you try to compile it? 19:13:37 Yes. Your bad indentation has masked the problem. 19:13:47 (recur root) is outside the body of the RECUR definition. 19:14:19 It's trying to treat RECUR as the function name and ROOT as the lambda list, and erroring. 19:15:09 paredit to the rescue! 19:15:41 -!- Guest9465 is now known as pjb` 19:15:54 -!- pjb` is now known as pjb 19:16:55 opps silly mistake, Thanks. Yeah my paredit-fu is still weak. 19:17:41 Xach: Yes convergence, a very valid point. 19:17:54 AeroNoti1 [~xeno@abou41.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 19:18:14 -!- seangrove [~user@c-69-181-197-122.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:18:31 jtza8: if you want an ObjC bridge running in sbcl, there's http://benkard.de/objective-cl/ but it uses the newest libobjc runtime. 19:19:38 It should work on MacOSX however. 19:21:09 bananagram [~bot@c-76-30-158-226.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:21:42 jtza8: also, have a look at my reader macro wrapper over an ObjC bridge (some glue may be required for a different one than CCL's). https://gitorious.org/com-informatimago/com-informatimago/trees/master/objcl 19:23:10 -!- antgreen [green@nat/redhat/x-xkqxdwqjgnodufoe] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 19:24:48 Harag [~Thunderbi@41-132-83-33.dsl.mweb.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:30:36 BitPuffin [~quassel@s193-13-104-175.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 19:30:48 Thanks pjb. 19:30:56 Finally I got my binary tree drawn as a graph using graphviz, now I can stop bike shedding! 19:31:34 -!- vnz [~vnz@unaffiliated/vnz] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:34:22 PuercoPop: Don't you mean yak shaving? :-P 19:37:32 Interesting you are right, I had mistundertood the meaning of bike shedding 19:38:26 ehu [~ehu@089144206050.atnat0015.highway.bob.at] has joined #lisp 19:38:35 chameco [~samuel@c-50-163-34-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:39:19 What is the part of slime that allows common lisp to call emacs lisp commands or tell emacs to run some elisp form? 19:40:30 swank:eval-in-emacs 19:40:35 I think. 19:40:37 ltbarcly [~textual@216.113.168.135] has joined #lisp 19:41:07 thanks 19:43:09 -!- oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-184-171.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:43:27 -!- Straylight [~user@vpn.expressionanalysis.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 19:46:52 vnz [~vnz@unaffiliated/vnz] has joined #lisp 19:47:30 Hmm! 19:47:37 pjb: do you have clall handy? 19:47:41 Sure. 19:47:49 -!- ehu [~ehu@089144206050.atnat0015.highway.bob.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 19:47:56 spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 19:47:58 -!- Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:48:12 ehaliewicz [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 19:48:33 Six implementations ready ;-) 19:49:24 What do you get from this: (let ((p (make-package (gensym) :use nil))) (use-package p p) (package-use-list p)) 19:50:02 not strictly related to CL, but I think this kind of server is useful for every web developer, including CL web developers: https://www.digitalocean.com/ 19:50:03 Depends :-) 19:50:11 Some () some (#) 19:50:17 clisp and gcl return (). 19:51:28 LispWorks returns () also. 19:51:55 It seems to me that special care must be taken to prevent a package from using itself. 19:52:01 I wonder why such care was taken. 19:52:54 Our implementation (com.informatimago.common-lisp.lisp-reader.package) returns (#). 19:53:54 The definition of use-package seems to me to be idempotent: there should be no problem in using oneself. 19:54:43 ok, given an implementation which ALLOWS for a package to use itself, what should be the consequence of doing that? 19:54:52 nothing. 19:54:56 It's a NOP. 19:55:19 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@216.113.168.135] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 19:55:20 It should be a member of its own package-use-list and package-used-by-list 19:55:23 so, it doesn't make much of a difference if it evals to () or (#)? 19:55:55 Well, as Xach says, the side effects should be to add it to the two lists. 19:56:12 St. Paul frowns down from his Dietzian perch every time someone says such a thing 19:56:25 -!- vnz [~vnz@unaffiliated/vnz] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in] 19:56:27 The spec seems clear to me on the topic. 19:56:30 although the standard does not make it clear. Isn't this what could be called a undefined behavior? 19:56:40 I think the standard makes it quite clear. 19:57:03 -!- chameco [~samuel@c-50-163-34-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:57:04 The note is insteresting too. 19:57:07 Xach: it doesn't seem so for me, since the effect is a NOP 19:57:18 pjb: Actually, the glossary is interesting too. 19:57:21 It is permissible for a package P1 to use a package P2 even if P2 already uses P1. The using of packages is not transitive, so no problem results from the apparent circularity. 19:57:31 vnz [~vnz@unaffiliated/vnz] has joined #lisp 19:58:03 pjb: package P1 using package P2 means that the external symbols of P2 become accessible as internal symbols in P1 19:58:38 Yes. and when P1=P2? (it's your case). 19:58:40 jsn [~user@2601:9:2980:1ab:4df2:9473:f399:47c2] has joined #lisp 19:59:10 If the external symbols are made internal in P1 then they are no longer external in P2! 20:00:03 This sounds like a good way to stir up a terrible discussion in comp.lang.lisp. 20:00:42 Xach: I consider our implementation of the package system to be a reference implementation :-) 20:01:04 pjb: what is your implementation? 20:01:14 com.informatimago.common-lisp.lisp-reader.package 20:01:15 pjb: I'm reimplementing it 20:01:59 Without CLOS? 20:02:10 or in emacs lisp? 20:02:25 Ha. I'm simplifying it somewhat. Trying to make it as clean as possible for the book. 20:02:28 -!- _d3f [~gnu@46.183.216.234] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.1] 20:03:08 Good. 20:03:20 -!- tcr [~tcr@77-56-40-229.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:05:49 ehu [~ehu@089144206056.atnat0015.highway.bob.at] has joined #lisp 20:06:31 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-185-26.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:06:55 pjb: should we open bugs for every implementation that evals that form in question as ()? 20:08:24 Denommus: I think "The inherited symbols become accessible as internal symbols of package." muddies the waters a bit. 20:09:09 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:09:27 But aren't all the external symbols already accessible as internal symbols of the package? 20:09:52 wait, a book? 20:10:18 Davidbrcz [~david@ANantes-151-1-38-217.w83-195.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 20:10:40 -!- eldariof [~CLD@pppoe-196-60-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:10:50 Actually, not, so indeed (use-package p p) is operative and therefore the use list should not be empty after. 20:11:27 pjb: No, internal symbols are by definition not external (were you thinking of present?) 20:11:34 -!- edgar-rft [~GOD@HSI-KBW-149-172-63-75.hsi13.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Quit: mental blackout] 20:12:00 I'm wondering if it wasn't what the clhs authors were thinking :-) 20:12:12 The letter seems to be contradictory indeed. 20:12:46 And external symbols of p1 can be external symbols of p2, so the same problem occurs in general with (use-package p1 p2). 20:12:48 I can understand why an implementation might not do anything for a package using itself. I would love to see the code or rationale for it. 20:12:57 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@ANantes-151-1-38-217.w83-195.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 20:13:33 Well, you're right, it's probably because of implementation reason that they behave this way, not because of a reading of the standard. 20:13:40 -!- klltkr [~klltkr@unaffiliated/klltkr] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:14:16 nialo- [~yaaic@66-87-30-198.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 20:14:24 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:14:28 but this generates incongruency. Something must be corrected, either the spec or the implementations 20:14:35 -!- varjag [uid4973@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-bogewwsdjehbcxoa] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:14:39 -!- nialo- [~yaaic@66-87-30-198.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:15:25 I suspect implementations will change when a paying customer complains. And I don't think the spec will change. 20:15:36 I can live with incongruency. 20:15:55 Denommus: you could add an issue on http://cliki.net/Issue 20:16:10 I also can, but it would be fair if this at least was marked as undefined behavior 20:16:50 That's what issues are for, yes. 20:17:16 And to document those little problem for the next standardization round (in 2984). 20:17:38 oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-184-171.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 20:18:21 how I wish there was indeed a CLtl3 :P 20:18:38 rpg [~rpg@23-25-144-217-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 20:18:59 -!- bon` [~user@kotona.demon.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20:20:09 normanrichards [~normanric@rrcs-108-178-120-144.sw.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:21:32 -!- Bike [~Glossina@71-222-34-2.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:21:57 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 20:23:13 Bike [~Glossina@174-25-57-167.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 20:23:31 ch077179 [~ch077179@unaffiliated/ch077179] has joined #lisp 20:25:13 -!- ehu [~ehu@089144206056.atnat0015.highway.bob.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:25:15 -!- archonix [~unknown@78.90.30.16] has quit [Quit: Read error: Connection reset by beer] 20:27:55 tcr [~tcr@77-56-40-229.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 20:27:57 ltbarcly [~textual@216.113.168.135] has joined #lisp 20:27:57 Krystof: I daydream about writing a replacement for Garret's awful package paper. 20:28:34 Sometimes I think it could be a literate program that implements a parallel, simplified package system. 20:29:46 Or maybe just an illiterate program with prose 20:30:16 or maybe a sonnet? 20:30:26 ... oh, wait, that would be Pascal 20:31:24 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:31:40 pavelpenev [~quassel@85.130.70.65] has joined #lisp 20:31:58 mncoder_ [~mncoder@72.166.95.2] has joined #lisp 20:32:01 -!- mncoder_ [~mncoder@72.166.95.2] has quit [Client Quit] 20:33:26 sdemarre [~serge@109.134.136.172] has joined #lisp 20:33:37 p_l: SPL 20:33:40 p_l: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shakespeare_(programming_language) 20:34:08 Xach: how can we turn the daydream into reality? 20:34:46 Krystof: do not wake up ? 20:34:57 and it will become your reality ? 20:35:25 -!- mncoder [~mncoder@72.166.95.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20:35:27 ehu [~ehu@089144206056.atnat0015.highway.bob.at] has joined #lisp 20:35:28 Krystof: One surefire way is paying clozure a lot of money. 20:35:33 haha 20:35:57 Denommus: actually, the bit about Sonnets and Pascal is properly attributed to Donald Knuth :) 20:36:12 BZaidan [~GreenLant@41.254.1.192.Huawei-TIP.WiMAX.dynamic.ltt.ly] has joined #lisp 20:36:48 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@216.113.168.135] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 20:36:54 Krystof: barring that, I just need to squeeze it in sometime. 20:38:35 Xach: a book chapter dealing with packages or a standalone article? 20:40:07 -!- ehu [~ehu@089144206056.atnat0015.highway.bob.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:40:27 A book about the CL package system. 20:41:30 nug700 [~nug700@174-26-137-145.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 20:41:40 -!- jangle [~jimmy1984@dsl-164.7-238.gtb.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:42:02 ltbarcly [~textual@216.113.168.135] has joined #lisp 20:42:51 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@internet2.cznet.cz] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net] 20:43:11 slyrus [~chatzilla@173-228-44-92.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 20:43:59 ~200 pages? 20:44:21 40 pages maybe! 20:46:32 heh okay. 20:49:14 antgreen [~green@dsl-173-206-91-232.tor.primus.ca] has joined #lisp 20:49:50 AeroNoti2 [~xeno@abop139.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 20:52:10 is there an easy way to translate cl pathnames to regular strings that emacs lisp can understand? 20:52:43 -!- dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 20:52:59 -!- AeroNoti1 [~xeno@abou41.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20:54:07 PuercoPop: cl:namestring might do what you want, but it might not. i use sb-ext:native-namestring. 20:54:10 -!- sdemarre [~serge@109.134.136.172] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:54:28 Some other implementations have similar functionality 20:54:28 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@93.113.190.121] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:54:56 *PuercoPop* nods it is precisely what I'm looking for 20:55:32 coreytrevor [~ma@95.211.138.27] has joined #lisp 20:55:56 seangrove [~user@208.80.69.42] has joined #lisp 20:56:24 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@173-228-44-92.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:01:43 -!- Corvidium [~cosman246@c-24-143-118-11.customer.broadstripe.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:04:04 -!- elkng [~elkng@unaffiliated/elkng] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:05:02 How do I tell common lisp to ignore there is now find file? (Find file is an emacs lisp form). I've tried with declare ignore 21:05:33 ignore that I've spoted my mistake 21:06:03 elkng [~elkng@unaffiliated/elkng] has joined #lisp 21:09:08 -!- maxter [~maxter@gaffeless.chaperon.volia.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:10:57 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@2-230-138-74.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:11:57 kiuma [~kiuma@2-230-138-74.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 21:13:20 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@216.113.168.135] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 21:14:29 Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has joined #lisp 21:15:25 zRecursive [~czsq888@171.216.202.87] has joined #lisp 21:16:07 jangle [~jimmy1984@dsl-164.7-238.gtb.net] has joined #lisp 21:19:41 ltbarcly [~textual@216.113.168.135] has joined #lisp 21:28:12 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@216.113.168.135] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 21:29:01 -!- dtw [~dtw@pdpc/supporter/active/dtw] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:31:07 -!- Kruppe [~user@j2petkovich.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:33:04 -!- nightfly_ is now known as nightfly 21:34:00 igotnolegs- [~igotnoleg@67-2-110-151.slkc.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 21:38:01 cl:namestring should do what is needed. If not, that should be a bug report 21:39:07 pjb: Why do you feel that emacs should use the same format that cl:namestring uses? 21:39:45 It is not the case in practice and need not be the case by specification. 21:39:55 nialo [~nialo@ool-44c53f01.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 21:39:55 Xach: because both run on a POSIX system, and it's customary to convert the byte sequences into strings with the ASCII encoding. 21:40:07 (for POSIX paths I mean). 21:40:20 -!- BZaidan [~GreenLant@41.254.1.192.Huawei-TIP.WiMAX.dynamic.ltt.ly] has left #lisp 21:40:59 pjb: That would be nice if it were the de facto situation, but it is not. 21:42:08 What do you mean? Are you considering non POSIX systems? 21:43:00 pjb: I am considering that some implementations return a string that is good enough to reconstruct the pathname object when given to PARSE-NAMESTRING, but which do not have the same meaning when given to processes outside of CL or foreign code 21:43:09 For example, it's acceptable to have different physical pathnames. Eg. #P"d/a\\.b.c" vs. #P"d/a.b.c" It is not acceptable if namestring on them doesn't return "d/a.b.c". 21:43:40 Xach: well round trip between namestring and pathname is the problem of the implementation. 21:43:46 And indeed, some are bad. 21:44:36 The spec is pretty clear that the namestring for a physical pathname has implementation-defined syntax. 21:44:54 While it might be inconvenient, it is not a bug. 21:45:10 You could file a "convenience report" perhaps 21:45:17 chu [~user@unaffiliated/chu] has joined #lisp 21:46:01 Yes. But on a POSIX system, it should give the POSIX path. 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