00:00:20 -!- Guest54088 [~veer@pool-71-100-236-211.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 00:00:20 Guest54088 [~veer@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 00:00:22 gadjo [~gggg@109.102.72.188] has joined #lisp 00:00:23 -!- Guest54088 is now known as _veer 00:00:59 -!- Myk267 [~myk@unaffiliated/myk267] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:03:56 -!- Juanito-Jons [~jreynoso@201.165.168.205] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:04:03 -!- rabite [~rabite@4chan.fm] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:04:51 -!- edgar-rft [~GOD@HSI-KBW-149-172-63-75.hsi13.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Quit: mental vacuum] 00:05:07 drmeister [~drmeister@166.137.104.170] has joined #lisp 00:05:19 rabite [~rabite@4chan.fm] has joined #lisp 00:10:37 Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 00:12:21 -!- nilsi [~nilsi@37.250.37.135.bredband.tre.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:16:51 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Excess Flood] 00:23:27 -!- youlysses [~user@75-132-28-10.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:25:10 Corvidium [~cosman246@nat60-100.net.kcls.org] has joined #lisp 00:27:14 normanrichards [~normanric@70.114.215.220] has joined #lisp 00:27:22 Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 00:27:49 -!- pavelpenev [~quassel@85.130.70.65] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:29:00 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:29:33 -!- ldionmarcil [~maden@unaffiliated/maden] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:34:36 thebope [~thebope@pdpc/supporter/student/thebope] has joined #lisp 00:37:04 Hi, I'm having a little trouble with google's lisp koans, I just jumped into the hash table exercises after a while of not doing them 00:37:12 I'm trying to create my own hash table which meets certain conditions 00:37:15 here's what I have so far 00:37:16 http://pastebin.com/gZSTY5ji 00:37:41 The hash I'm setting values to is colors, and I've tried vectors as well as multiple-value-list 00:37:57 but i cannot seem to get it to pass 00:38:28 probably because the default hash table test doesn't count strings as equal 00:39:04 -!- Corvidium [~cosman246@nat60-100.net.kcls.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 00:39:12 try (make-hash-table :test #'equal) 00:39:20 ahhh 00:39:37 and what does :test #'equal do exactly? It allows equality tests? 00:39:54 it makes the equality test of the hash table the function EQUAL 00:40:01 that did it 00:40:16 and (equal "green" "green") => T, while (eql "green" "green") is probably NIL 00:40:51 okay because they're not the same object persay 00:40:58 where as equal just tests for similar objects 00:41:06 right. 00:41:13 cool thanks Bike 00:41:57 JPeterson [~JPeterson@s213-103-210-215.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 00:42:59 setmeaway [setmeaway@119.201.52.138] has joined #lisp 00:45:51 -!- gadjo [~gggg@109.102.72.188] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 00:47:53 -!- sirdancealo2 [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:48:01 nug700 [~nug700@174-26-131-8.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 00:49:07 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@120.158.126.242] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 00:50:10 -!- agumonkey [~agu@179.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 00:52:14 Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 00:54:13 It talks about equality in the equality koan, I think it was before the hash one iirc ;) 00:57:10 -!- harish [~harish@cm32.zeta224.maxonline.com.sg] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:00:00 -!- tankrim [~user@pdpc/supporter/active/tankrim] has left #lisp 01:01:05 sirdancealo2 [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 01:03:07 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@166.137.104.170] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:06:22 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:07:18 -!- Anarch [~olaf@c-67-183-64-49.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:07:22 doesthiswork [~Adium@174-31-178-247.tukw.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 01:07:51 -!- doesthiswork [~Adium@174-31-178-247.tukw.qwest.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:09:39 Corvidium [~cosman246@c-24-143-118-11.customer.broadstripe.net] has joined #lisp 01:10:38 -!- keen____ [~blackened@p3b930d47.wmaxuq00.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:10:39 antonv_ [5d7d2a74@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.42.116] has joined #lisp 01:11:30 -!- hwiersma [~hwiersma@S0106602ad08e475a.ok.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:12:33 nightshade427: Yea, I had done that, I just haven't worked on them in a while so I was a little off and I didn't think to check for that. 01:12:41 I should probably just work through them all again at some point 01:12:52 I understand the code but I think it'd be harder for me to recreate 01:13:28 I like and dislike koans, they show you a lot of what a language can do but a lot of times figuring out what to fill in is totally different from actually writing some code in the language 01:13:50 especially when it comes to functional languages if you're not used to writing functional code 01:14:48 DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@1.144.177.109] has joined #lisp 01:16:00 -!- ckoch786_ [~quassel@cpe-98-27-140-191.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:17:02 -!- nialo [nialo@ool-44c53f01.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 01:19:13 wws-ubuntu [~wws@p-69-195-56-107.dsl1.rtr.chat.fpma.frpt.net] has joined #lisp 01:20:50 -!- wws-ubuntu [~wws@p-69-195-56-107.dsl1.rtr.chat.fpma.frpt.net] has quit [Client Quit] 01:20:55 Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 01:21:48 -!- Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:22:02 hwiersma [~hwiersma@50.92.237.119] has joined #lisp 01:24:22 wws-ubuntu [~wws@p-69-195-56-107.dsl1.rtr.chat.fpma.frpt.net] has joined #lisp 01:26:06 -!- wws-ubuntu [wws@clozure-9AE32D32.dsl1.rtr.chat.fpma.frpt.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:26:06 -!- wws-ubuntu [~wws@p-69-195-56-107.dsl1.rtr.chat.fpma.frpt.net] has quit [Client Quit] 01:28:19 Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 01:29:17 -!- Nisstyre-laptop is now known as nisstyre 01:34:15 -!- nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:38:36 buthban [~user@ip70-179-169-110.fv.ks.cox.net] has joined #lisp 01:40:05 -!- smazga [~acrid@64.55.45.194] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.3.3] 01:43:12 -!- thebope [~thebope@pdpc/supporter/student/thebope] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:47:06 Could someone explain to me the difference between #' and '. I know #' is used for function namespace, but it seems that many times I can use ' and the function is passed properly 01:47:35 a symbol can have a function attached to it 01:48:19 but I never bound the symbol? 01:48:30 so give me an example 01:48:47 #'x means (function x). 01:49:40 'x means (quote x). 01:50:04 Some functions will take a symbol as a function name, e.g., (funcall '+ 1 2) 01:50:04 (defun something (fun) (funcall fun)) (defun othersomething () (format t "called")) (something 'othersomething) 01:50:07 barglfargl [~barglfarg@24-197-167-134.dhcp.gwnt.ga.charter.com] has joined #lisp 01:50:28 In this case the function is looked up in the global namespace -- not the lexical namespace. 01:50:37 So flets and so on will be ignored. 01:50:57 nydel [~nydel@ip72-197-245-1.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 01:52:23 so flets ignored with '? 01:52:30 harish [harish@nat/redhat/x-mwetumcfhvamslnu] has joined #lisp 01:56:34 -!- dcguru [~chatzilla@66.129.60.130] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90.1 [Firefox 19.0.2/20130307023931]] 01:56:49 Myk267 [~myk@unaffiliated/myk267] has joined #lisp 01:57:51 Sure, read the documentation for funcall. 01:57:55 (etc). 01:58:00 -!- jasom [~aidenn@ip70-191-80-19.sb.sd.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 02:02:26 echo-area [~user@182.92.247.2] has joined #lisp 02:02:55 -!- hugod [~user@69.157.170.134] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:02:58 so given your example, what would you use #'othersomthing for 02:03:11 coreytrevor [~ma@95.211.138.27] has joined #lisp 02:03:43 alpha123 [~chatzilla@65-128-101-149.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 02:04:11 same as 'othersomething? 02:04:16 theseb [d807e14e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.216.7.225.78] has joined #lisp 02:04:38 Well, if there's no lexical function definition, then both will do the same thing. 02:04:52 Read up on the FUNCTION special operator to understand more clearly. 02:05:05 ok will do 02:05:13 thanks 02:06:21 -!- buthban [~user@ip70-179-169-110.fv.ks.cox.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 02:06:43 any ever *implemented* lambda calculus? I got an implementation debugged and working but Y combinator always gives "max recursion depth exceeded" when I try to use it....I've tried both versions..how fix? 02:07:27 i'd be happy to ask in #lambda_calculus but i don't think it exists :) 02:07:43 The Y combinator is not recursive. 02:07:45 what's the evaluation order? 02:08:03 What you should be doing is effectively generating (funcall r r) 02:08:19 Bike: i don't know "call by name" and "call by value" mean but I *DID* notice there were TWO versions of Y...both cratered 02:08:52 theseb: If you have (\lambda x. x) foo, is foo evaluated before the application happens? 02:09:00 -!- barglfargl [~barglfarg@24-197-167-134.dhcp.gwnt.ga.charter.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:09:07 Bike: sorry....i'm a beginner at PLT so don't know much more than what i said already 02:09:29 Bike: let me think... 02:09:31 just a min 02:09:31 theseb: this is something that should be easily evident from your implementation 02:09:57 Bike: oh hey...here it is!... https://bitbucket.org/seberino/elegant 02:10:24 https://bitbucket.org/seberino/elegant/src/0086b6c6b978ad8603e51fa1d97886c74f637f27/elegant?at=default 02:10:44 -!- MoALTz [~no@host86-137-70-93.range86-137.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 02:10:47 Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has joined #lisp 02:11:43 i ask because, as you can see from wikipedia, "In programming practice, the above Y combinator is useful only in those languages that provide a non-strict evaluation strategy, such as call-by-name, since (Y g) diverges (for any g) in call-by-value settings." 02:11:47 Bike: looks like I evaluate a and b in (a b) before doing the invocation 02:12:16 Bike: yea...i saw that too....it makes me think Y is somehow weird or "special" and can't work in a "normal" lambda calculus implementation 02:12:38 no 02:13:10 it's easy to see from that fixed point combinator's definition that it will recur forever if values are evaluated first 02:13:15 but there are other fixed point combinators. 02:13:27 Bike: EVERYTHING else worked great.....church numerals, booleans, arithmetic...etc..it is only Y that is troublesome 02:13:55 None of them involve values without a normal form. 02:14:31 nialo [nialo@ool-44c53f01.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 02:14:58 Bike: is it possible to create a Y equivalent that works where stuff evaluated first? 02:15:06 that's what i said, yes. 02:15:58 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-185-168-200.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:15:59 glancing at wikipedia, (x. y. (y (z. x x y z))) (x. y. (y (z. x x y z))) perhaps. 02:15:59 Bike: i heard about the Z combinator...it is another version of Y 02:16:28 Bike: the Z combinator cratered too..you gave me hope so I'll keep looking 02:16:38 MoALTz [~no@host86-142-161-139.range86-142.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 02:17:12 but really, this should be pretty obvious, Y f --> f (Y f), so if you evaluate (Y f) before the application... 02:17:14 Bike: btw...are you comfortable interpreting when they omit parens?... I don't know how to interpret that lambda func you gave since parens are missing 02:17:43 (x. (y. (y (z. x x y z)))) (x. (y. (y (z. x x y z)))) 02:19:45 Bike: does EVERY fixed point combinator function the same way...i.e. provides recursion? 02:21:50 i don't know what you mean by "provides recursion". intuitively, if you have metafact = (lambda (fact) (lambda (n) (if (zerop n) 1 (* n (funcall fact (1- n)))))), (fix metafact) is the usual factorial function, e.g. (funcall (fix metafact) 10) => 3628800. 02:23:42 -!- seangrove [~user@208.80.69.42] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:24:51 Bike: my understanding of Y combinator is that it allows you to get recursion in a language without syntactic sugar for recursion 02:25:01 Bike: that what was cool about it.....it appears "fixed point" and "recursion" are kinda/sorta that same thing 02:25:04 that's a true but not very good understanding. 02:25:06 -!- sirdancealo2 [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:25:17 theseb: (fix metafact) is just a fixed point of metafact - (metafact (fix metafact)) and (fix metafact) are equivalent, see? 02:25:28 -!- cpape [~user@cpape.eu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:25:34 cpape [~user@cpape.eu] has joined #lisp 02:25:44 Bike: yes 02:26:27 -!- weie_ [~eie@softbank221078042071.bbtec.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 02:26:41 Bike: looks like I need to read up more on this 02:26:44 thanks for your help 02:27:08 theseb: i thought the explanation in "LIsp in Small Pieces" was pretty easy to understand, and also more on topic here than the present conversation 02:27:59 Bike: any free online books give good treatments of this? 02:28:56 not off the top of my head, sorry. probably would be covered in many computational math textbooks 02:30:59 tiglog [~topeak@61.149.230.8] has joined #lisp 02:31:04 Bike: k, thanks again 02:31:06 g'nite 02:31:09 -!- theseb [d807e14e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.216.7.225.78] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 02:31:39 -!- sfa [~sfa@208.66.156.12] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:40:54 -!- Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 02:44:37 guyal [~anonymous@207.88.181.2.ptr.us.xo.net] has joined #lisp 02:47:43 fridim__ [~fridim@bas2-montreal07-2925317871.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 02:58:24 Bike_ [~Glossina@174-25-43-108.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 03:00:59 -!- Bike [~Glossina@174-25-43-108.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 03:01:02 -!- Bike_ is now known as Bike 03:04:21 kpreid [~kpreid@50-196-148-102-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 03:05:37 -!- boogie [~boogie@wsip-98-172-168-236.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:06:10 -!- sturty67 [~sturty67@c-67-182-147-102.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:08:50 sturty67 [~sturty67@c-67-182-147-102.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:11:20 sfa [~sfa@208.66.156.12] has joined #lisp 03:17:30 ejohnson [~Thunderbi@c-67-181-201-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:18:21 boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 03:19:22 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thebope [~thebope@pdpc/supporter/student/thebope] has joined #lisp 04:34:44 Hi, I'm having trouble with a part of the lisp koans 04:34:54 I've pasted the code here with the error underneath: http://pastebin.com/q70JjCH1 04:35:03 The problem comes at the second assert-equal 04:35:20 I've created very simple structs a, and b which includes a in the sbcl shell 04:35:39 and let c be make-b, type-of c returns b 04:36:03 so I'm unsure why here It's telling me that the variable STRUCTURE::NBA-CONTRACT is undefined 04:37:07 -!- oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-144-204.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:37:41 thebope: quote it 04:38:21 Dang it 04:38:30 I've just gotta start quoting things to try it 04:38:41 Does type-of return a string always? 04:38:50 thebope: it returns a symbol (in this case) 04:39:05 thebope: nba-contract is an undefined variable, you want 'nba-contract the symbol 04:39:09 -!- sturty67 [~sturty67@c-67-182-147-102.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:39:17 ahhh okay 04:39:21 thanks Bike 04:39:25 you're pretty good at this 04:39:51 I'm an engineer I should have figured to look up lisp type-of, what the return value was, and then to make my value that 04:40:36 sturty67 [~sturty67@c-67-182-147-102.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:41:02 -!- joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@086.112-30-64.ftth.swbr.surewest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:42:06 Karl_dscc [~localhost@ipdsw03.informatik.fh-schmalkalden.de] has joined #lisp 04:43:54 -!- boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:46:50 Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has joined #lisp 04:49:06 ejohnson [~Thunderbi@c-67-181-201-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:49:41 -!- bananagram [~bot@c-76-30-158-226.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 04:52:05 -!- Karl_dscc [~localhost@ipdsw03.informatik.fh-schmalkalden.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:55:55 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[~fridim@bas2-montreal07-2925317871.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 05:18:56 Joreji [~thomas@179-228.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 05:23:22 -!- entitativity [~entity@c-50-136-180-20.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:23:37 entitativity [~entity@c-50-136-180-20.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:23:49 sirdancealo2 [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 05:27:21 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-185-168-200.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:32:14 francis_wolke [62cf9ba1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.98.207.155.161] has joined #lisp 05:33:12 ehu [~Erik@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 05:35:54 kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 05:36:59 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 05:38:36 -!- alpha123 [~chatzilla@65-128-101-149.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90.1 [Firefox 22.0/20130618035212]] 05:40:53 i have two inferior lisps connected via slime to emacs: abcl and ccl. when i load a .lisp file, slime associates it with ccl by default. fair enough. but i seem to recall there is some way to switch a lisp buffer to another lisp. 05:40:59 anyone know how to do this? 05:41:33 M-x slime-cycle-connection, or something like that 05:42:33 that's done it, thanks! it's connections btw 05:42:38 jangle [~jimmy1984@ip-64-134-185-194.public.wayport.net] has joined #lisp 05:43:01 i saw that but then passed over it for some reason 05:43:04 thanks 05:43:53 -!- sirdancealo2 [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:45:40 zRecursive [~czsq888@171.217.20.63] has joined #lisp 05:45:42 mishoo [~mishoo@93.113.190.121] has joined #lisp 05:46:10 -!- nydel [~nydel@ip72-197-245-1.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Quit: quit] 05:51:14 -!- ``Erik [~erik@pool-74-103-121-45.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:52:55 sirdancealot 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[~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 06:37:04 xificurC [xificurC@nat/ibm/x-ggeabyqzijsudauj] has joined #lisp 06:40:28 -!- pchrist_ is now known as pchrist 06:40:59 -!- bitonic [~user@2a02:1205:34dc:95e0:250:c5ff:fe00:47b5] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:41:52 gadjo [~gggg@109.102.72.188] has joined #lisp 06:42:15 -!- tiglog [~topeak@61.149.230.8] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:42:48 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:43:55 -!- jewel_ [~jewel@105-236-120-81.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:45:31 -!- Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:45:53 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@1.130.59.77] has quit [Quit: Bye] 06:46:16 -!- oceabreeze [d4b0283d@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.212.176.40.61] has quit [Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client] 06:47:24 -!- gadjo [~gggg@109.102.72.188] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 06:50:35 -!- ndrei [~avo@mtl93-2-82-66-118-59.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 06:51:50 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:52:20 mcsontos_ [~mcsontos@77.240.184.15] has joined #lisp 06:55:16 bitonic [~user@2a02:1205:34dc:95e0:250:c5ff:fe00:47b5] has joined #lisp 06:56:39 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 06:57:19 oh crap, i should talk less on irc 06:57:31 ndrei [~avo@mtl93-2-82-66-118-59.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 06:58:16 it is VERY hard to connect irc.freenode.net recently ?! 06:58:29 For me, yes. 06:58:46 i heard of some guys DDOS it 06:59:31 -!- Joreji [~thomas@179-228.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:59:59 Joreji [~thomas@179-228.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 07:02:20 pnpuff- [~v_@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 07:03:05 jerryzhou [~gururui@119.52.22.91] has joined #lisp 07:03:26 hwiersma2 [~hwiersma@50.92.237.119] has joined #lisp 07:03:40 -!- zRecursive [~czsq888@171.217.20.63] has left #lisp 07:04:47 -!- jerryzhou [~gururui@119.52.22.91] has quit [Client Quit] 07:05:31 -!- eldariof [~CLD@pppoe-196-60-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:05:50 -!- hwiersma [~hwiersma@50.92.237.119] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:08:52 killerboy [~mateusz@195.225.68.249] has joined #lisp 07:09:22 -!- pnpuff- [~v_@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has left #lisp 07:09:22 poppingtonic [~poppingto@212.49.88.97] has joined #lisp 07:09:55 Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has joined #lisp 07:10:44 jewel [~jewel@105-236-120-81.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 07:14:09 -!- francis_wolke [62cf9ba1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.98.207.155.161] has quit [Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client] 07:14:22 -!- DrForr_ is now known as DrForr 07:15:12 namtsui [~user@c-76-102-34-148.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:23:45 stassats: no, you'll make science go wrong! 07:25:34 jdz: others should talk less too, then it'll be alright 07:30:59 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-42-134.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:31:56 -!- ejohnson [~Thunderbi@c-67-181-201-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ejohnson] 07:31:59 bondar [~bondar@197.156.132.62] has joined #lisp 07:32:10 -!- bondar [~bondar@197.156.132.62] has quit [Excess Flood] 07:35:19 -!- hwiersma2 [~hwiersma@50.92.237.119] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 07:36:14 statl [~statl@dslb-094-218-019-088.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 07:41:15 jerryzhou [~gururui@119.52.22.91] has joined #lisp 07:44:29 -!- Joreji [~thomas@179-228.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:44:33 -!- jerryzhou [~gururui@119.52.22.91] has quit [Client Quit] 07:44:36 Joreji [~thomas@179-228.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 07:46:33 -!- Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 07:46:51 pr_ [~pr@li544-108.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 07:46:57 -!- pr_ [~pr@li544-108.members.linode.com] has quit [Client Quit] 07:47:50 -!- harish [harish@nat/redhat/x-mwetumcfhvamslnu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:50:52 -!- Joreji [~thomas@179-228.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:51:04 Joreji [~thomas@179-228.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 07:58:34 i can specialize SESSION-CREATED to evaluate code when sessions are created in hunchentoot. is there a straightforward way to evaluate code when sessions are destroyed? 07:59:23 youlysses [~user@75-132-28-10.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 07:59:52 pkkm [~pawel@adhj132.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 08:01:30 -!- xificurC [xificurC@nat/ibm/x-ggeabyqzijsudauj] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 08:01:39 acceptor-remove-session? 08:02:13 -!- Bike [~Glossina@67-5-232-1.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 08:03:13 -!- wormphlegm [~wormphleg@24.130.9.50] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 08:03:19 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@85-76-123-249-nat.elisa-mobile.fi] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:05:34 arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-ksqqzyvvmgezdctq] has joined #lisp 08:05:58 ph88 [5597cc14@gateway/web/freenode/ip.85.151.204.20] has joined #lisp 08:06:54 -!- spacefrogg^ is now known as spacefrogg 08:08:00 Vicfred [~Vicfred@187.206.124.155] has joined #lisp 08:14:17 stassats: thanks! didn't see it since it's in a different section of the docs (nowhere near SESSION-CREATED) 08:14:18 agumonkey [~agu@179.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 08:22:12 przl [~przlrkt@46.231.183.162] has joined #lisp 08:24:52 any idea why it returns a boolean? can it deny the destruction? 08:24:59 -!- bitonic [~user@2a02:1205:34dc:95e0:250:c5ff:fe00:47b5] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:26:07 it does? looks more like it returns a string 08:26:23 mvilleneuve_ [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 08:27:08 (which is a bug) 08:27:17 Natch_u [~Natch@c-10cfe155.25-4-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 08:27:33 obre [~ober@zeniv.linux.org.uk] has joined #lisp 08:27:38 the documentation has "generalized boolean" as return value 08:27:51 everything is a generalized boolean 08:28:23 All things are true but nil. 08:28:23 -!- Modius` [~user@cpe-70-112-159-86.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 263 seconds] 08:28:25 blackwol` [~blackwolf@ool-4574e84c.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 08:28:49 arkx_ [~aku@eagleflow.fi] has joined #lisp 08:28:50 chu_ [~user@unaffiliated/chu] has joined #lisp 08:28:50 well yea, but it seems silly to document it that way (if the boolean will never be tested) 08:28:51 quazimod1 [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 08:29:02 but that the default method's docstring is the return value and the documentation saying that the gf returns a generalized boolean are bugs 08:29:11 vh0st- [~vhost@li540-47.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 08:29:38 optikalmouse_ [~quassel@gw.trapeze.com] has joined #lisp 08:29:51 yroeht1 [~yroeht@x.yroeht.eu] has joined #lisp 08:29:54 -!- Natch [~Natch@c-10cfe155.25-4-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:29:54 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-171-89.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:29:54 -!- Natch_u is now known as Natch 08:29:54 -!- oconnore [~eric@38.111.17.138] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:29:54 -!- obre_ [~ober@zeniv.linux.org.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:29:55 -!- The_third_man [~The_third@irc.tocards.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:29:55 -!- nibalizer [nibz@reaver.cat.pdx.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:29:55 -!- blackwolf [~blackwolf@ool-4574e84c.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:29:55 -!- quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:29:55 -!- Labrit 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timeout: 240 seconds] 08:29:59 oconnore [~eric@38.111.17.138] has joined #lisp 08:29:59 vsync [~vsync@wsip-98-175-216-162.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 08:30:02 ttm [~The_third@clavardage.tocards.net] has joined #lisp 08:30:17 sid_cypher [sid@s0.barwen.ch] has joined #lisp 08:30:29 Tribal [tribal@rcfreak0.com] has joined #lisp 08:30:52 expez [~expez@expez.com] has joined #lisp 08:30:54 tensorpudding [~tensorpud@99.102.66.135] has joined #lisp 08:31:29 tychoish [~tychoish@foucault.cyborginstitute.net] has joined #lisp 08:32:16 nibalizer [nibz@reaver.cat.pdx.edu] has joined #lisp 08:33:22 wormphlegm [~wormphleg@24.130.9.50] has joined #lisp 08:34:00 i opened an issue https://github.com/edicl/hunchentoot/issues/57 08:37:13 -!- mcsontos_ [~mcsontos@77.240.184.15] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:37:40 peterhil [~peterhil@158.127.31.162] has joined #lisp 08:37:57 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-171-89.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 08:40:04 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 08:46:03 bitonic [~user@77-56-49-28.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 08:48:11 -!- arrsim [~user@mail.fitness2live.com.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:48:16 -!- bitonic [~user@77-56-49-28.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:48:43 bitonic [~user@77-56-49-28.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 08:53:57 -!- sdemarre [~serge@109.134.134.139] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 08:54:19 hi stassats 08:54:33 do you mind if I take over swap-bytes ? 08:55:06 i don't mind, since i don't use it 08:55:17 good :) 08:55:18 -!- nug700 [~nug700@174-26-131-8.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:55:26 but i'd like to go over the VOPs some time, since i know understand them much better 08:56:38 the current ones are "copy from somewhere and bash it until it appears to work" 09:02:11 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 09:07:33 -!- bitonic 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09:25:23 Aethaeryn [~Michael@wesnoth/umc-dev/developer/aethaeryn] has joined #lisp 09:30:39 yacks [~py@103.6.158.102] has joined #lisp 09:31:03 przl [~przlrkt@46.231.183.162] has joined #lisp 09:33:02 Odin- [~sbkhh@erudite.anarchism.is] has joined #lisp 09:36:38 gadjo [~gggg@109.102.72.188] has joined #lisp 09:36:48 -!- przl [~przlrkt@46.231.183.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 09:37:30 -!- Aethaeryn [~Michael@wesnoth/umc-dev/developer/aethaeryn] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:38:55 pavelpenev [~quassel@85.130.70.65] has joined #lisp 09:41:55 przl [~przlrkt@46.231.183.162] has joined #lisp 09:42:05 root____4 [~root@83-244-152-66.cust-83.exponential-e.net] has joined #lisp 09:42:24 nialo [nialo@ool-44c53f01.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 09:42:59 -!- yacks [~py@103.6.158.102] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:44:41 -!- root____4 [~root@83-244-152-66.cust-83.exponential-e.net] has left #lisp 09:45:22 loke [~user@bb121-7-211-212.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 09:46:05 nostoi [~nostoi@17.Red-79-157-235.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 09:46:29 -!- nostoi [~nostoi@17.Red-79-157-235.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Client Quit] 09:46:45 -!- nialo [nialo@ool-44c53f01.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 09:48:51 -!- chu_ is now known as chu 09:50:52 -!- Joreji [~thomas@179-228.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 09:51:16 Joreji [~thomas@179-228.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 09:53:51 nostoi [~nostoi@17.Red-79-157-235.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 09:55:42 hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@109.120.39.67] has joined #lisp 09:57:03 Greetings! No dumb questions for today. 09:59:38 Is that a promise? 10:03:22 rannger [~user@113.108.131.227] has joined #lisp 10:05:02 angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has joined #lisp 10:06:11 -!- przl [~przlrkt@46.231.183.162] has quit [Quit: leaving] 10:06:26 przl [~przlrkt@46.231.183.162] has joined #lisp 10:08:38 -!- statl [~statl@dslb-094-218-019-088.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 10:09:00 -!- nostoi [~nostoi@17.Red-79-157-235.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 10:09:43 -!- ndrei [~avo@mtl93-2-82-66-118-59.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:13:38 ndrei [~avo@mtl93-2-82-66-118-59.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 10:14:22 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@95.35.60.65] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 10:14:30 -!- echo-area [~user@182.92.247.2] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:16:18 -!- DalekBaldwin [~Adium@71-84-34-33.dhcp.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 10:16:36 Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 10:16:45 Zhivago: sort of. Actually, today is "make this damn work day" for me and I finally made suspend to disk work. 10:17:18 Well done. 10:17:41 -!- jewel [~jewel@105-236-120-81.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 10:18:37 The next step is to organize my lisp stuff and fix some broken ebuilds. 10:20:03 francis_wolke [62cf9ba1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.98.207.155.161] has joined #lisp 10:20:14 Sagane [~Sagane@177.100-226-89.dsl.completel.net] has joined #lisp 10:21:51 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@158.127.31.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:23:20 Mathieu [~cicak@203.127.16.194] has joined #lisp 10:23:54 -!- hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@109.120.39.67] has quit [Quit: hitecnologys] 10:25:41 hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@109.120.39.67] has joined #lisp 10:31:37 jewel [~jewel@105-236-120-81.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 10:31:45 -!- hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@109.120.39.67] has quit [Quit: hitecnologys] 10:32:01 -!- francis_wolke [62cf9ba1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.98.207.155.161] has quit [Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client] 10:32:57 -!- Harag [~Thunderbi@105-236-205-79.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 10:34:36 hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@109.120.39.67] has joined #lisp 10:36:59 edgar-rft [~GOD@HSI-KBW-149-172-63-75.hsi13.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 10:40:12 pnpuff [~ln@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 10:43:00 hello guys... I've a "strange" result from a Lisp function I have defined: http://paste.lisp.org/display/138179 . Could kindly someone suggest me how to solve this "issue"? thanks. 10:43:00 pnpuff, memo from pjb: clisp is not written in C (too low level a programming language). Instead it's written in d. (c came after b, to implement unix; so d comes after c, to implement clisp). All right, it's just a simple preprocessor. http://www.clisp.org/impnotes/source-files.html 10:43:00 pnpuff, memo from pjb: because RTL, that's Radio Télévision Luxembourgeoise. 10:44:03 -!- rannger [~user@113.108.131.227] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:44:05 Aramur [~Aramur@102.Red-79-154-74.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 10:45:39 Solved with awk ...\"{ print \\$3 }\"... Sorry for thr noise. 10:45:57 are you being serious? it's not related to lisp in the slightest 10:46:46 and kudos to pjb doing a great job at misleading already confused pnpuff 10:48:33 stassats: thanks for your help. 10:48:42 pjb: thanks a lot. 10:48:44 and stop saying "thanks" all the time 10:48:58 ok. 10:49:08 stassats, so sassy today. 10:49:11 -!- Gooder` [~user@79.155.200.192.client.dyn.strong-in144.as13926.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:49:38 today? 10:54:07 pnpuff: clisp is written indeed in C, a bastardized version with preprocessors 10:54:25 the file extension is .d, but it's still C 10:55:19 stassats, :) 10:55:23 and RTL means runtime library, not what pjb said 10:55:54 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:56:43 also, German comments to make understanding the code as challenging as possible 10:57:13 though, they could go with Urdu or Swahili instead 10:57:36 stassats: forgive me for my incompetence, but what do you mean saying "bastardized version with preprocessors"? 10:58:01 pnpuff, The coded uses the C preprocessor a lot, making the code more difficult to read. 10:58:05 i can't express it any better than that 10:58:26 Quadrescence: it's not even the cpp, some custom ones 10:58:32 Gross. 10:58:57 you thought only the CL people think the need to make their language better? 10:58:59 There seems to be an 80s/90s fad of using preprocessors on C. Wolfram did it with Mathematica. 10:59:11 s/think/fell/ 10:59:17 feel 10:59:48 -!- Joreji [~thomas@179-228.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:00:36 easye [~user@213.33.70.157] has joined #lisp 11:00:46 zacharias [~zacharias@unaffiliated/zacharias] has joined #lisp 11:01:30 tcr [~tcr@77-56-40-229.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 11:02:57 Remy [~Remy@101.164.29.84] has joined #lisp 11:03:29 -!- mikaelj [~tic@c83-248-1-208.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 11:04:18 mikaelj [~tic@c83-248-1-208.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 11:06:12 Hey guys. Does anyone know if there is a good guide for using win32 api with clisp? 11:06:44 a) don't use clisp b) use some other implementation and CFFI 11:06:57 :) 11:07:01 Remy: no if you don't want ride the lightning. ;) 11:07:23 yea. I figured it was going to have to be some ffi 11:07:30 cffi good? 11:07:45 yes, but not on clisp 11:07:58 Which lisp do you reccomend then? 11:08:07 SBCL, Clozure CL 11:08:28 Oh, i'm using clozure. I meant common lisp when i said clisp 11:08:45 it's the mistake #1 11:08:52 haha 11:09:20 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 11:09:24 "cl" is the accepted abbreviation, it's even shorter 11:09:30 Cool, is there a decent guide for using cffi or do i just need to go through the documentation for it 11:09:37 Will keep that in mind. 11:09:42 peruse the manual 11:10:09 Coo 11:10:14 Cool 11:10:37 and CFFI is also trading on NASDAQ: https://www.google.com/finance?q=NASDAQ:CFFI 11:11:04 lol 11:11:29 -!- pnpuff [~ln@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 11:12:07 -!- hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@109.120.39.67] has quit [Quit: hitecnologys] 11:15:46 hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@109.120.39.67] has joined #lisp 11:16:57 -!- nitro_idiot_ is now known as nitro_idiot 11:17:05 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 11:19:18 pnpuff [~ln@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 11:20:41 -!- adnap_ is now known as adnap 11:26:07 -!- przl [~przlrkt@46.231.183.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:29:09 -!- Sagane [~Sagane@177.100-226-89.dsl.completel.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 11:30:45 -!- Mathieu [~cicak@203.127.16.194] has quit [Quit: Mathieu] 11:32:03 nialo [~nialo@ool-44c53f01.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 11:35:02 -!- pnpuff [~ln@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has left #lisp 11:37:42 -!- Adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 11:37:49 -!- Aramur [~Aramur@102.Red-79-154-74.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Aramur] 11:53:39 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:55:31 -!- antgreen [~green@207.112.99.60] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:56:06 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 12:00:47 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 12:01:51 Anarch [~olaf@c-67-183-64-49.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:04:49 antifuchs: ping 12:05:54 Sagane [~Sagane@177.100-226-89.dsl.completel.net] has joined #lisp 12:06:25 knob [~knob@76.76.202.244] has joined #lisp 12:07:29 Harag [~Thunderbi@105-236-205-79.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 12:08:38 -!- wormphlegm [~wormphleg@24.130.9.50] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:08:47 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 12:09:04 wormphlegm [~wormphleg@24.130.9.50] has joined #lisp 12:12:21 which library do you suggest I use for iterating over bits of an XML file (matching a certain xpath)? 12:12:43 there's lots matching "xml" in quicklisp and I haven't really used anything yet 12:12:58 fantazo [~fantazo@213.129.230.10] has joined #lisp 12:13:07 there's plexippus-xpath 12:13:47 normanrichards [~normanric@70.114.215.220] has joined #lisp 12:13:56 yes, closure-xml uses it; and then there's cl-libxml2, which also has xpath through FFI 12:14:16 closure-xml uses what? 12:14:41 plexippus xpath. or nvm. 12:15:22 it doesn't and why would it? 12:15:40 OK, I can see references to stp and cxml in the plexippus-xpath examples, too. 12:15:50 Suppose I should look at those, too. 12:18:34 -!- theos is now known as Guest90080 12:19:06 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 12:19:11 -!- bitonic [~user@77-56-49-28.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:19:35 bitonic [~user@77-56-49-28.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 12:19:43 statl [~statl@dslb-094-218-020-082.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 12:20:13 -!- Guest90080 [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 12:23:29 -!- Remy [~Remy@101.164.29.84] has quit [Quit: irc2go] 12:25:30 yacks [~py@103.6.158.102] has joined #lisp 12:27:23 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:29:39 schoppenhauer [~quassel@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 12:32:22 -!- nialo [~nialo@ool-44c53f01.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 12:34:14 peterhil [~peterhil@158.127.31.162] has joined #lisp 12:34:38 -!- kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:35:29 przl [~przlrkt@46.231.183.162] has joined #lisp 12:37:10 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-42-134.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:41:05 -!- antonv_ [5d7d2a74@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.42.116] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 12:47:35 -!- arrsim` [~user@2001:44b8:415c:cc01:6ef0:49ff:fe5e:dedb] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:48:33 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:49:41 -!- bitonic [~user@77-56-49-28.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:50:44 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@70.114.215.220] has quit [Quit: normanrichards] 12:50:46 arrsim [~user@2001:44b8:415c:cc01:6ef0:49ff:fe5e:dedb] has joined #lisp 12:51:49 -!- sdemarre [~serge@109.134.134.139] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:52:41 arademaker [~user@2001:468:913:1004::fe] has joined #lisp 12:52:44 tfb [~tfb@restormel.cley.com] has joined #lisp 13:04:15 sdemarre [~serge@109.134.134.139] has joined #lisp 13:04:59 mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has joined #lisp 13:08:37 antgreen [~green@dsl-173-206-91-232.tor.primus.ca] has joined #lisp 13:08:40 stepnem [~stepnem@internet2.cznet.cz] has joined #lisp 13:08:55 stassats: You really didn't feel like fixing this hunchentoot "issue"? :P 13:09:00 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@158.127.31.162] has quit [Quit: Must not waste too much time here...] 13:09:19 peterhil [~peterhil@158.127.31.162] has joined #lisp 13:10:26 lemoinem: there are appointed maintainers, i let them do their job 13:10:37 lemoinem: Why isn't using VALUES a valid solution? 13:11:43 easye: That's my point: it is... 13:12:16 lemoinem: only i don't see how it solves the return value problem 13:14:22 -!- arbscht_ [~arbscht@fsf/member/arbscht] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:15:43 that would involve modifying doc/index.xml 13:15:54 stassats: Hum... I may have misread the doc, but the semantic of the return value doesn't seem to be specified anywhere. And about anything is a generalize-boolean... 13:15:56 wow. CLisp's preprocessor steps are insane. 13:16:21 yeah :D 13:16:35 foom: ... if it was only preprocessor... 13:17:37 Ok, your point is that the doc is invalid then? That'd be easily fixed... I'll update my PR then. 13:17:54 yes, it's not generalize-boolean 13:18:48 Also, # as a comment character in C? Seriously? 13:18:59 warum nicht? 13:19:14 segv- [~mb@95-91-243-233-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 13:19:25 normanrichards [~normanric@rrcs-24-173-33-110.sw.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:19:54 mgile [~mgile@74-92-220-177-Colorado.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 13:23:03 lemoinem: NIL means it doesn't return 13:23:31 for no values, the doc seems to use => | 13:24:39 youlysse` [~user@75-132-28-10.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 13:24:42 -!- jangle [~jimmy1984@ip-64-134-189-34.public.wayport.net] has quit [Quit: jangle] 13:24:57 although NIL is used as well, which is inconsistent 13:25:02 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 13:25:33 -!- mcsontos [mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-edjihmewemcgghnb] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:26:24 -!- youlysses [~user@75-132-28-10.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Quit: brb] 13:26:36 well, it's a mishmash of different things, sometimes it's a type, sometimes a variable name, sometimes a description 13:27:30 and i'd prefer clhs's => to => | 13:27:52 prw [~chatzilla@87-57-209-106-static.dk.customer.tdc.net] has joined #lisp 13:28:07 pnpuff [~ln@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 13:29:18 H4ns: thereaboutsp 13:29:30 bitonic [~user@77-56-49-28.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 13:29:54 (: 13:30:33 and CLHS is just as inconsistent, uses => NIL, descriptive names or types as well 13:31:17 mcsontos [mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-liunluhaafxtyltc] has joined #lisp 13:33:37 declaring it as no-values, or anything else, and it being a hook function, gives the impression that the value is actually important, while it isn't 13:33:50 lemoinem: that's why i didn't do a pull-request, it's too complicated 13:35:18 Adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 13:36:29 victor_lowther [~victorlow@143.166.116.80] has joined #lisp 13:37:08 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 13:39:09 and because (values) is more expensive on SBCL than NIL 13:39:28 -!- Harag [~Thunderbi@105-236-205-79.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:42:31 teggi [~teggi@123.25.130.142] has joined #lisp 13:42:45 Corvidium [~cosman246@c-24-143-118-11.customer.broadstripe.net] has joined #lisp 13:44:28 Why does this work? (foo (defun foo (x) x)) defines #'foo in sbcl and ccl (but not cmucl) 13:44:47 prw: it's undefined whether it works or not 13:45:09 *stassats* gets a flashback for asking that same question some 5 years ago 13:45:35 Ok, undefined. But wtf?? 13:45:54 what surprises you? 13:47:44 Well the first foo is undefined, so shouldn't it signal an error? 13:47:47 -!- wormphlegm [~wormphleg@24.130.9.50] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 13:47:55 wormphlegm [~wormphleg@24.130.9.50] has joined #lisp 13:48:04 before calling a function, it evaluates all the arguments from left to right 13:48:13 evaluating the first arguments happens to define FOO 13:48:21 -!- youlysse` [~user@75-132-28-10.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:48:34 now, what happens first, looking up of FOO or evaluating of arguments is not specified 13:49:19 looking up FOO after evaluating arguments is a good way to break code with undefined macros and to confuses newcomers 13:50:01 clhs 3.1.2.1.2.3 13:50:01 Function Forms: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_ababc.htm 13:50:06 oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-135-178.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 13:50:15 "Although the order of evaluation of the argument subforms themselves is strictly left-to-right, it is not specified 13:50:15 whether the definition of the operator in a function form is looked up before the evaluation of the argument subforms, 13:50:15 after the evaluation of the argument subforms, or between the evaluation of any two argument subforms if there is more 13:50:15 than one such argument subform." 13:50:20 -!- Anarch [~olaf@c-67-183-64-49.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:50:21 oops, linebreaks 13:51:23 -!- sirdancealot [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:51:59 I wouldn't do this myself. I haven't seen it before. 13:52:08 nyef [~nyef@c-50-157-244-41.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:52:46 -!- wormphlegm [~wormphleg@24.130.9.50] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:52:58 Thanks for the explanation. Is it a bug in the spec then? 13:53:09 no, i just told you, it's unspecified 13:53:10 G'morning all. 13:53:19 slyrus [~chatzilla@107.200.11.156] has joined #lisp 13:53:19 what makes you say that it's a bug? 13:53:21 sirdancealot [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 13:53:23 ... dare I ask? 13:53:47 -!- coreytrevor [~ma@95.211.138.27] has quit [Quit: leaving] 13:53:52 Does it have any possible use? 13:54:25 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@rrcs-24-173-33-110.sw.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: normanrichards] 13:54:39 it doesn't 13:54:48 fortitude [~mts@rrcs-24-97-165-124.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:54:57 Then why leave it unspecified? 13:55:32 why specify it? 13:56:45 quoting you: looking up FOO after evaluating arguments is a good way to break code with undefined macros and to confuses newcomers 13:56:58 prw: I have it on fairly good authority that it probably wasn't specified due to exhaustion 13:57:09 ok, I buy that. 13:57:29 `fogus [~fogus@freedom.d-a-s.com] has joined #lisp 13:57:30 no, it was specified that it isn't specified, so, the exhaustion argument doesn't stand 13:58:14 Why was it specified that it isn't specified? Implementation freedom? 13:58:18 The exhaustion claim comes from someone who was on the committee. I will ask him if you like as I'll be seeing him next week 13:59:38 -!- gadjo [~gggg@109.102.72.188] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 14:00:17 Maybe the committee was exhausted with dealing with the issue? 14:00:38 that is what he meant, yes. 14:00:45 there is an issue 14:01:16 much easier to say "leave unspecified" which leaves everyone conforming than specify it and possibly make one or more implementations nonconforming 14:01:36 "Requiring left to right evaluation would force some implementations to consume an extra register for many function calls. The efficiency argument seems more important than the aesthetic argument." 14:02:08 "and nobody in their right mind would write code that depends on the order of evaluation" 14:02:21 -!- ndrei [~avo@mtl93-2-82-66-118-59.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:02:22 so, they deliberately unspecified it 14:03:06 -!- Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 14:03:09 http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Issues/iss171_w.htm 14:03:55 If I remember correctly, the Scheme standard goes one step farther and makes the evaluation order of the argument forms unspecified as well. 14:04:06 All this applies equally to argument-evaluation-order, yet that was specified. Something hppened between the two stages 14:04:06 it does 14:04:22 tfb: it doesn't apply to argument-evaluation-order 14:04:40 unless your blood is infused with scheme, of course 14:04:58 but evaluation order allows for more concise code in some cases 14:05:17 when side-effects are involved 14:05:58 Look, if anyone cares I will ask the peson involved. Since he was actually *there* he might know what actually happened rather than what later archeology infers might have happened. 14:06:01 How do you side-effect the function binding, unless you're doing crazy things with DEFUN or SETF FDEFINITION? 14:06:37 the last paragraph is pretty clear what happened 14:06:58 OK, I'm sure you know best 14:07:12 nyef: that's an unrelated argument-evaluation-order side-effect 14:07:40 wormphlegm [~wormphleg@24.130.9.50] has joined #lisp 14:07:42 ahungry_ [~null@66.184.106.97] has joined #lisp 14:07:51 tfb: right, let's bother people with trivial inconsequential stuff that happened 20 years ago 14:08:16 Ah, the issue precisely IS the redefinition of function bindings during argument processing. 14:08:32 If this is a problem, you're doing something wrong. 14:08:58 nyef: and it says "nobody in their right mind would write such code" 14:09:10 -!- Corvidium [~cosman246@c-24-143-118-11.customer.broadstripe.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:09:22 incidentally, it *does* apply ro argument evaluation order, of course. There are lots of clever things you can do if argument evaluation order is left underfined, which is the whole point 14:09:48 such as, for instance, avoiding evaluating some arguments at all 14:10:17 -!- mcsontos [mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-liunluhaafxtyltc] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:11:05 such are not so clever for program authors 14:11:12 such things 14:11:12 s 14:11:38 i've found scheme's unspecified order to be annoying 14:12:38 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@195.225.68.249] has quit [Disconnected by services] 14:12:38 killerbo1 [~mateusz@195.225.68.249] has joined #lisp 14:12:40 rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 14:12:42 -!- killerbo1 [~mateusz@195.225.68.249] has quit [Client Quit] 14:13:24 Or allowing parallel evaluation. 14:13:38 -!- prw [~chatzilla@87-57-209-106-static.dk.customer.tdc.net] has left #lisp 14:13:44 wws [~billstcla@p-69-195-56-107.dsl1.rtr.chat.fpma.frpt.net] has joined #lisp 14:13:49 automatic parallel evaluation is useless 14:14:01 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Disconnected by services] 14:14:05 -!- wws is now known as billstclair 14:14:09 Munksgaard [~philip@93-165-20-11-dynamic.dk.customer.tdc.net] has joined #lisp 14:14:12 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@p-69-195-56-107.dsl1.rtr.chat.fpma.frpt.net] has quit [Changing host] 14:14:12 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 14:14:30 Is this the right place to ask for slime help? 14:14:37 leaving things unspecified, when there's nothing useful to be gained from specification, and leaving things unspecified, when it actually can be exploited for good, is different 14:14:42 Munksgaard: it is 14:14:57 *tfb* gives up 14:15:13 stassats: Thanks! 14:15:32 tfb: was persuading me on your agenda? sorry for not making it happen 14:15:49 -!- tfb [~tfb@restormel.cley.com] has quit [Quit: gone] 14:15:55 mcsontos [mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-ixutwfugyovfabrn] has joined #lisp 14:15:56 When i try to compile a file with C-c C-k, i a condition saying "The function SWANK::TRY-COMPILE-FILE-WITH-ASDF is undefined." 14:16:02 i get 14:17:07 I can see the function in $SLIMEDIR/contrib/swank-asdf.lisp, but it's as though it doesn't get exported or something? 14:18:09 Munksgaard: you must have lifted someone's ~/.swank.lisp config 14:18:21 without the .emacs part 14:18:45 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-131-74.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 14:19:04 stassats: You're right! I've got "(in-package :swank) 14:19:13 (pushnew 'try-compile-file-with-asdf *compile-file-for-emacs-hook*)" in my .swan.lisp 14:19:18 if you really want to use this, you need to load slime-asdf contrib with (slime-setup '(slime-asdf)) in .emacs, or just remove that pushnew 14:19:36 no idea how it got there. Has it been deprecated? 14:19:54 no, it is not enabled by default 14:20:10 normanrichards [~normanric@rrcs-108-178-120-144.sw.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:20:28 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 14:20:48 I've "required" in SBCL (version 1.1.9): sb-bsd-sockets, sb-posix, sb-introspect, sb-cltl2 asdf and cffi . When I try: (save-lisp-and-die "sbcl.core-for-slime") - as reported in SBCL 1.1.9 User Manual, 3.2.3 Saving a Core Image - I get a message telling me: "Cannot save core with multiple threads running." What I have to do in order to salve a Core Image? 14:21:38 pnpuff: don't start multiple threads 14:21:39 Munksgaard: in the original code by Fare, it was enabled, but i didn't like the idea of C-c C-k suddenly using ASDF, so, i left it disabled 14:23:01 stassats: When would i want to use asdf? If i had lots of imports and such? 14:23:47 well, that's a bit orthogonal question, but usually, whenever you want something with multiple files and dependencies 14:23:59 your C-c C-k problem is not related to that 14:24:55 stassats: Got it. Thanks a lot :) 14:29:17 Karl_dscc [~localhost@ipdsw03.informatik.fh-schmalkalden.de] has joined #lisp 14:30:39 youlysses [~user@75-132-28-10.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 14:33:21 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-185-168-200.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:33:31 -!- housel` is now known as housel 14:33:34 _d3f [~gnu@94.242.252.66] has joined #lisp 14:34:57 -!- przl [~przlrkt@46.231.183.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:35:50 -!- youlysses [~user@75-132-28-10.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:37:09 przl [~przlrkt@46.231.183.162] has joined #lisp 14:39:56 -!- corni [~corni@drupal.org/user/136353/view] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 14:41:03 corni [~corni@HSI-KBW-109-192-071-185.hsi6.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 14:41:03 -!- corni [~corni@HSI-KBW-109-192-071-185.hsi6.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Changing host] 14:41:03 corni [~corni@drupal.org/user/136353/view] has joined #lisp 14:41:26 stassats: do you have a terse base64 encoder? 14:42:31 Modius [~user@cpe-70-112-159-86.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:42:45 ejohnson [~Thunderbi@c-67-181-201-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:45:08 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:45:53 -!- ejohnson [~Thunderbi@c-67-181-201-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 14:47:07 hwiersma [~hwiersma@205.250.5.108] has joined #lisp 14:54:40 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-185-168-200.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:56:29 bitonic` [~user@77-56-49-28.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 14:57:40 -!- bitonic [~user@77-56-49-28.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:04:35 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-185-168-200.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:08:00 bitonic`` [~user@77-56-49-28.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 15:08:43 Joreji [~thomas@179-228.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 15:09:38 -!- zbigniew_ is now known as zbigniew 15:09:41 jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@193.137.28.184] has joined #lisp 15:09:42 -!- bitonic` [~user@77-56-49-28.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:09:47 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:14:37 *slyrus* lurks at the wrong end of a power law 15:15:36 -!- Joreji [~thomas@179-228.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 261 seconds] 15:18:20 Hrm... a "terse base64 encoder", huh? I wonder how compactly a base64 encoder could be implemented in lisp? 15:19:10 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 15:19:22 -!- bitonic`` [~user@77-56-49-28.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:19:32 -!- przl [~przlrkt@46.231.183.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 15:23:26 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@93.113.190.121] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:24:00 -!- pnpuff [~ln@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has left #lisp 15:27:14 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-185-168-200.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:28:45 boogie [~boogie@wsip-98-172-168-236.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 15:29:55 CatMtKing [~CatMtKing@138.23.57.82] has joined #lisp 15:30:52 -!- cods [~cods@rsbac/developer/cods] has quit [Quit: Reconnecting] 15:32:23 cods [~cods@tuxee.net] has joined #lisp 15:36:30 drmeister [~drmeister@166.137.104.170] has joined #lisp 15:39:11 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@158.127.31.162] has quit [Quit: Must not waste too much time here...] 15:40:38 -!- jewel [~jewel@105-236-120-81.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:40:43 I wouldn't mind something short but not unreadable. 15:41:12 Someone has sent me a base64 encoder for quicklisp proxy auth. it is kind of long and uses structures and operations i would prefer not to. 15:45:55 Xach: here's a base64 encoder I wrote a while ago it's not fabulously small or clean and uses loop but it does the job: http://paste.lisp.org/+2YME 15:45:57 I've got one which unfortunately I cannot share (just becuase I wrote it doesn't mean... etc etc). But as a hint: 40 lines of code, no less readable (I think) than the definition of base64, uses char-code, ldb and a vector of characters. 15:46:25 arademak` [~user@177.142.17.109] has joined #lisp 15:46:54 code golf? 15:47:09 coreytrevor [~ma@95.211.140.99] has joined #lisp 15:47:19 ) 15:47:22 :) 15:47:29 Nick beat me by a factor of two then :) 15:48:11 -!- arademaker [~user@2001:468:913:1004::fe] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:48:18 Harag [~Thunderbi@41-132-83-33.dsl.mweb.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:48:53 -!- teggi [~teggi@123.25.130.142] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:50:54 -!- mvilleneuve_ [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 15:51:03 -!- spacefrogg is now known as spacefrogg^ 15:52:07 slyrus: you're 92nd on the list, but the couple people before you are really close (or did you wish you were quieter?) 15:54:37 zacharias_ [~zacharias@unaffiliated/zacharias] has joined #lisp 15:54:55 -!- zacharias [~zacharias@unaffiliated/zacharias] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:54:57 -!- zacharias_ is now known as zacharias 15:55:30 -!- dfox [~dfox@94.142.237.120] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:56:35 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@166.137.104.170] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:59:16 dfox [~dfox@94.142.237.120] has joined #lisp 15:59:28 -!- s00pcan [~chris@108-208-64-149.lightspeed.livnmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 16:01:07 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:03:30 jangle [~jimmy1984@198.151.8.4] has joined #lisp 16:06:39 mishoo [~mishoo@93.113.190.121] has joined #lisp 16:06:42 -!- arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-ksqqzyvvmgezdctq] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:06:42 -!- seangrove [~user@c-69-181-197-122.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:06:48 -!- Adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:06:53 oudeis [~oudeis@95.35.60.65] has joined #lisp 16:07:11 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@95.35.60.65] has quit [Client Quit] 16:10:48 hugod [~user@69.157.170.134] has joined #lisp 16:11:24 -!- sirdancealot [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:13:29 kiuma [~kiuma@78-134-105-253.v4.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 16:14:09 Is there an approachable book like this but for Common Lisp? http://www.amazon.com/Understanding-Computation-Machines-Impossible-Programs/dp/1449329276/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1374682406&sr=8-1&keywords=Computation 16:15:37 Here is better description of book http://computationbook.com/ 16:16:45 sirdancealot [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 16:18:50 nightshade427: There are a few good books for learning common lisp. I don't know how they compare to that book, though. 16:19:00 -!- arademak` [~user@177.142.17.109] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:20:11 Aramur [~Aramur@102.Red-79-154-74.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 16:20:30 -!- hwiersma [~hwiersma@205.250.5.108] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:21:36 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 16:23:20 Xach: Ya, I have read books on Common Lisp and done some coding in cl. I'm looking for a book that covers those basic computer science subjects that book covers but in Common Lisp instead of ruby. Here is contents of book http://computationbook.com/contents 16:24:22 -!- poppingtonic [~poppingto@212.49.88.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:24:30 Xach: There is also a list at the bottom of this page of subjects covered http://computationbook.com/ 16:24:33 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:24:59 Was just curious I'd there was cl equivalent? 16:25:02 -!- Munksgaard [~philip@93-165-20-11-dynamic.dk.customer.tdc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:25:04 nope. 16:25:20 I'd = if 16:25:34 Bummer, okay. Thanks ;) 16:25:45 well, not a single book at least 16:26:14 also, there are good books on Scheme too 16:26:15 as SICP 16:26:43 which covers the first point in the dotted list 16:27:10 and the second is partially covered here http://cs.brown.edu/~sk/Publications/Talks/SwineBeforePerl/ 16:27:39 I don't mind reading a few different books if they are approachable enough. Any that cover the same as the listing at bottom of this page would be great. http://computationbook.com/ 16:28:02 Blkt: Scip added to my reading list, thanks. 16:28:22 minion: LiSP 16:28:23 LiSP: "Lisp in Small Pieces". This book covers Lisp, Scheme and other related dialects, their interpretation, semantics and compilation. To sum it up in a few figures: 500 pages, 11 chapters, 11 interpreters and 2 compilers. 16:28:26 minion: PAIP 16:28:26 PAIP: No definition was found in the first 5 lines of http://www.cliki.net/PAIP 16:28:27 -!- tcr [~tcr@77-56-40-229.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:29:32 Where can I get lisp in small pieces? I can't find it for sale or download (google-fu failing me) 16:29:39 Amazon 16:29:54 it is also fairly cheap 16:30:01 you can get both there 16:30:06 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@50-196-148-102-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:30:12 stassats: Paip added to list, to thanks. 16:31:15 L.I.S.P http://www.amazon.com/books/dp/0521545668 that correct one? 16:31:28 yes 16:31:36 my god 16:31:41 93$? 16:31:55 Ya, expensive :( 16:32:12 I've got to check EUR-USD exchange rate 16:32:15 How do you all feel about "let over lambda"? 16:32:45 and no kindle edition! 16:32:45 it's *hilarious* 16:32:50 no wonder lisp is not popular 16:33:22 tcr [~tcr@77-56-40-229.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 16:33:36 dlowe: what do you mean with hilarious? 16:33:38 kindle price for PAIP is still steep, $79.89 16:34:29 let over lambda is a wild ride that will expand the borders of your programming mindset, but I would hate to be a maintainer of code that actually used the techniques 16:34:30 the last time I tried to read a technical book on Kindle it felt like reading jquery minified on notepad 16:34:48 oh 16:35:23 kindle beats waiting for shipping 16:35:59 hwiersma [~hwiersma@S0106602ad08e475a.ok.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 16:36:12 agumonkey [~agu@179.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 16:36:42 pnpuff [~ln@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 16:37:20 Thanks guys, I have some new books on the way. 16:39:02 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@78-134-105-253.v4.ngi.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:39:31 Starting with sicp, its free on their site. 16:40:31 Could probably look at the videos too, if that's your kind of thing. 16:41:18 mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has joined #lisp 16:41:29 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:41:44 Ohh wow, ya, they have a bunch of videos. Awesome. 16:41:45 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 16:41:50 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@213.129.230.10] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:42:16 ndrei [~avo@mtl93-2-82-66-118-59.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 16:44:43 eldariof [~CLD@pppoe-196-60-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has joined #lisp 16:45:33 -!- CrazyEddy [~ancestral@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:46:10 vlion_ [~vlion@66-87-74-84.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 16:46:45 -!- pnpuff [~ln@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has quit [Ping timeout: 241 seconds] 16:50:53 nialo [~nialo@ool-44c53f01.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 16:51:12 CrazyEddy [~epipterou@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 16:52:32 pnpuff [~ln@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 16:53:58 les [moreorles@lesharris.com] has joined #lisp 16:53:58 -!- les [moreorles@lesharris.com] has quit [Changing host] 16:53:58 les [moreorles@fsf/member/les] has joined #lisp 16:55:00 -!- sauerkrause [~krause@cpe-24-55-25-199.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in] 16:56:04 sauerkrause [~krause@cpe-24-55-25-199.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:56:23 -!- pnpuff [~ln@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has quit [Client Quit] 16:57:02 Bike [~Glossina@71-222-53-48.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 16:58:02 -!- les [moreorles@fsf/member/les] has quit [Client Quit] 16:59:57 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@rrcs-108-178-120-144.sw.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: normanrichards] 17:00:13 -!- jdoles [~jdoles@unaffiliated/jdoles] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:04:27 hitecnologys1 [~hitecnolo@46.233.230.162] has joined #lisp 17:06:09 -!- hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@109.120.39.67] has quit [Disconnected by services] 17:06:20 -!- hitecnologys1 is now known as hitecnologys 17:08:28 Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 17:08:56 -!- ndrei [~avo@mtl93-2-82-66-118-59.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:09:37 -!- nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@quickdocs.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 17:09:54 jocke_pirat [~kgarricks@host-77-46-236-24.midco.net] has joined #lisp 17:10:09 nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@quickdocs.org] has joined #lisp 17:14:30 -!- nialo [~nialo@ool-44c53f01.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:16:33 killerboy [~mateusz@195.225.68.249] has joined #lisp 17:16:50 -!- sellout [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 17:16:58 bashyal [~bashyal@ec2-54-245-100-167.us-west-2.compute.amazonaws.com] has joined #lisp 17:17:57 bitonic`` [~user@84-75-58-96.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 17:23:15 -!- bitonic`` [~user@84-75-58-96.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:24:03 -!- Karl_dscc [~localhost@ipdsw03.informatik.fh-schmalkalden.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:25:52 AeroNotix [~xeno@abnz215.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 17:26:39 So... I've found this interesting pattern while reading Let over Lambda: http://pastebin.com/SEZyEHQu 17:26:57 and I'm wondering: is it possible to replicate it in other languages such as Python? 17:27:26 other languages are off-topic 17:27:30 And: is this the reason why 'defun' was designed to work at global scope? 17:28:23 what does that mean? 17:28:28 -!- guyal [~anonymous@207.88.181.2.ptr.us.xo.net] has quit [Quit: The Sleeper has Asleepen] 17:28:50 drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has joined #lisp 17:28:51 Klaufir_ [~admin@109.232.224.97] has joined #lisp 17:29:18 I find it interesting because "direction" is not visible in the global scope, yet toggle-counter-direction and counter-class are. 17:30:03 that's the purpose of defun 17:30:05 I'm wondering whether uses cases like this one were taken into account when designing how defun works. In the sense that it always defines functions in the global scope. 17:30:12 if you want local functions, you have to use FLET or LABELS 17:30:23 Aramur: you're thinking in it too much 17:30:33 it just defines functions, nothing more 17:30:45 s/in/into/ 17:31:25 Somehow the more I read the more I get a feeling of "oh, that's why". 17:31:46 and this thing is called a closure 17:31:47 Thanks for the answer. 17:32:12 and it has nothing to do with the function being globally bound to some symbol 17:32:35 -!- bashyal [~bashyal@ec2-54-245-100-167.us-west-2.compute.amazonaws.com] has quit [Quit: bashyal] 17:32:51 -!- tcr [~tcr@77-56-40-229.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:32:54 -!- jangle [~jimmy1984@198.151.8.4] has quit [Quit: jangle] 17:33:38 defun works the way it does due to reasons predating lexical scope 17:33:59 It's actually the fact that defun bounds globally that makes the pattern interesting. 17:34:33 I'm unable to replicate this behavior in Scheme or other languages due to that, despite closures. 17:34:47 no, that pattern would be completely uninteresting without lexical scope 17:34:53 no, scheme has this too 17:35:24 tcr [~tcr@77-56-40-229.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 17:35:25 Corvidium [~cosman246@D-69-91-156-45.dhcp4.washington.edu] has joined #lisp 17:35:46 the globablity only means that you can call that function by name under certain circumstances, nothing more 17:35:58 stassats: what I mean is... yes, it has closures but if I did (define (toggle...)) inside the let in Scheme, that definition would be local to the let. 17:36:05 if it were a local function defined with FLET or just a LAMBDA, it'll be the same thing 17:36:07 bashyal [~bashyal@ec2-54-245-100-167.us-west-2.compute.amazonaws.com] has joined #lisp 17:37:36 -!- tcr [~tcr@77-56-40-229.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Client Quit] 17:38:23 Aramur: that's just a technicality, (define foo (let ((x 10)) (lambda () x))) would achieve a similar goal 17:39:19 Mmmm. 17:41:52 Would it be possible to use a similar technique to hide "direction" in the lexical closure environment but have toggle-counter-direction and counter-class be globals? 17:42:10 yes 17:42:11 stassats: German comments have been translated a long time ago. 17:42:21 pjb: how come i still see them? 17:42:33 what comments ? 17:42:37 Aramur: but hiding things is not always the best thing 17:42:45 stassats: fetch the sources of 2.49? 17:42:49 fe[nl]ix: clisp 17:42:51 ah, in clisp 17:42:58 pjb: i got it from mercurial 17:43:09 stassats: I agree (this is just a "I find it interesting thing"). 17:43:26 Perhaps there remain a few of them. 17:44:13 Thanks for the help stassats, jsnell_. 17:44:19 fe[nl]ix: pong 17:44:46 antifuchs: what's the best way to get a Ruby REPL in emacs ? 17:45:24 -!- vlion_ [~vlion@66-87-74-84.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi] 17:45:39 oh. I am not aware of one, tbh ): 17:45:46 swank.rb! 17:45:54 (not really) 17:46:12 I thiiink the best you can get at the moment is pry 17:46:22 but that's very ansi-term only 17:46:50 -!- bashyal [~bashyal@ec2-54-245-100-167.us-west-2.compute.amazonaws.com] has quit [Quit: bashyal] 17:46:51 ok, I installed it 17:46:54 how does it work ? 17:47:04 you call it up like you would IRB 17:47:06 M-x term RET pry RET ? 17:47:12 just "pry" in the terminal 17:47:14 yep 17:47:23 *stassats* prepares a trip to #ruby to ask for the best Lisp REPL 17:47:45 it also has a great pry-debugger extension and other things that take away a bit of the pain. nothing like slime though 17:48:01 (notice the show-method and edit-method commands - these are pretty helpful) 17:48:16 i wonder if swank.rb still works, the last modifications are from 2009 17:48:51 then I should probably try to resurrect that 17:49:06 how much does the slime protocol change these days? 17:49:20 these days, not much, these years, some 17:49:44 the protocol itself changes rarely, API changes are more often 17:51:36 -!- CrazyEddy [~epipterou@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Quit: .] 17:51:46 dtw [~dtw@pdpc/supporter/active/dtw] has joined #lisp 17:52:54 -!- thehandler [~this@41.89.164.16] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:53:15 gadjo [~gggg@109.102.72.188] has joined #lisp 17:53:55 -!- Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has quit [] 17:54:29 CrazyEddy [~mudstone@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 17:56:53 -!- chu [~user@unaffiliated/chu] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:57:43 Ener2 [~enerccio@ip-88-212-33-5.antik.sk] has joined #lisp 17:57:52 hello, how can I search for keyword with find ? 17:58:10 straightforwardly 17:58:16 what problems do you encounter? 17:58:19 (find :a '(:b :a)) 18:00:05 I get error 18:00:23 (find ':title :key #'car '((:TITLE . "Test1") (:WIDTH . 800) (:HEIGHT . 600))) 18:00:31 err scratch ' 18:00:38 :key #'car comes after the list 18:00:44 LAMBDA: Keyword expected, got #. 18:00:48 but that's called ASSOC 18:00:52 ah okay, will try it 18:01:17 (find :title '((:TITLE . "Test1") (:WIDTH . 800) (:HEIGHT . 600)) :key #'car) == (assoc :title '((:TITLE . "Test1") (:WIDTH . 800) (:HEIGHT . 600))) 18:02:13 almost 18:02:39 sellout [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:02:59 Bike_ [~Glossina@174-25-57-220.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 18:03:03 (assoc nil '(nil (nil . 800))) => (NIL . 800) but (find nil '(nil (nil . 800)) :key #'car) => NIL 18:03:40 vlion_ [~vlion@66-87-74-84.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 18:03:56 Viaken2 [~dpflug@184.90.154.164] has joined #lisp 18:05:15 -!- Bike [~Glossina@71-222-53-48.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:05:41 -!- Bike_ is now known as Bike 18:06:09 man this channel should have lisp evaluating bot... 18:06:09 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for this channel should have lisp evaluating bot.... 18:06:19 no, it shouldn't 18:06:21 err what....? 18:06:37 Ener2: specbot is sorry, don't mind him 18:06:41 bot die please 18:06:41 k0001 [~k0001@host236.190-136-67.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 18:06:43 aww 18:06:48 I hoped he will reply it or something 18:07:19 stassats so why not? 18:07:34 you can evaluate things easily yourself 18:07:54 -!- pkkm [~pawel@adhj132.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Disconnected by services] 18:07:54 pkkm_ [~pawel@acya126.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 18:07:56 tcr [~tcr@77-56-40-229.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 18:08:11 and having an eval bot usually descends into everybody trying to break it resulting in a high amount of noise 18:08:43 If someone is interested in running it, there is one: https://github.com/tlikonen/cl-eval-bot 18:09:01 stassats, #emacs people don't do that. Maybe #lisp people will, though. 18:09:17 not will, they do that every time 18:09:34 heh 18:09:43 so immature, people here? 18:10:12 no, just wanting to see how good the author sandboxed it, since CL is very hard to sandbox 18:10:20 last time i was in #emacs i got to watch people try to break the sandboxing, so 18:10:40 and there's no value in an eval-bot 18:11:20 why would cl be hard to be sandboxed? 18:11:29 you just need a package with allowed functions 18:11:39 if you're too tired evaluating things in your head, you can (while using ERC) assign evaluation to a key-binding 18:11:49 and simple list parser what will replace offending symbols with symbols from different package 18:12:52 (funcall (read-from-string (reverse "selif-lla-eteled"))) 18:13:38 If someone wants to try a bot, one is now on #lisp-repl. 18:13:43 or 1e99999999, no more heap! 18:14:08 It can be crashed with out of memory but it restarts and comes back. 18:14:23 or this being fixed on sbcl, #1000000000(()) 18:14:52 arbscht_ [~arbscht@fsf/member/arbscht] has joined #lisp 18:15:32 boycottg00gle [~user@stgt-5f71a37a.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 18:15:53 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@107.200.11.156] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:16:13 -!- CrazyEddy [~mudstone@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:17:24 przl [~przlrkt@p4FE64D06.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 18:17:29 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p4FE64D06.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Client Quit] 18:17:30 -!- tcr [~tcr@77-56-40-229.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:20:14 My bot has a custom READ-FROM-STRING which can't be tricked with (funcall (read-from-string (reverse "selif-lla-eteled"))) 18:20:30 -!- gadjo [~gggg@109.102.72.188] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:20:55 what about intern? find-symbol? format? 18:21:18 Disabled features. 18:21:36 read-eval? 18:21:41 so, just confirms "CL is very hard to sandbox" 18:21:45 Package and symbol features are disabled. 18:21:45 nyef: that one is easy 18:21:53 True, but so very, very useful. 18:22:08 read-eval plus backquote is great fun, for example. (-: 18:22:34 Obviously, full CL can't be safe. 18:22:49 Infinite loops? 18:22:53 Merely long-running operations? 18:22:57 there was a bot once which just filtered syscalls 18:23:09 plus timeouts and memory limits 18:23:17 arademaker [~user@187-126-124-18.user.veloxzone.com.br] has joined #lisp 18:26:18 Destructive operations involving creating circular list structure, combined with *print-circle* nil? 18:28:16 -!- Ener2 [~enerccio@ip-88-212-33-5.antik.sk] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90.1 [Firefox 21.0/20130518125154]] 18:28:49 nyef, it detects circular lists and doesn't eval them. 18:28:51 tcr [~tcr@77-56-40-229.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 18:28:54 -!- jocke_pirat [~kgarricks@host-77-46-236-24.midco.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:29:28 -!- tcr [~tcr@77-56-40-229.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Client Quit] 18:29:58 how about a function to find a goldbach counterexample 18:30:20 I'm a bit surprised there isn't a cl-sandbox library in quicklisp... 18:30:31 given what a PITA it is to sandbox, that is 18:30:48 CrazyEddy [~superserv@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 18:31:19 redline6561: if you're surprised, perhaps it's a hitch of yours? Scratch it! 18:31:43 -!- pkkm_ is now known as pkkm 18:32:30 Eh, I've got a lot of itches I'm busy scratching. Then again, if dtw doesn't mind I might try factoring out cl-sandbox from the eval-bot, etc at some point. 18:33:38 AGPL3? Ouch. 18:38:44 Eldariof-ru [~CLD@pppoe-196-60-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has joined #lisp 18:39:16 ejohnson [~Thunderbi@c-67-181-201-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:39:54 -!- eldariof [~CLD@pppoe-196-60-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:40:27 zickzackv [~faot@g225049242.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 18:42:38 -!- jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@193.137.28.184] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:44:50 seangrove [~user@c-24-7-12-22.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:44:52 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-171-89.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:47:34 So, I've tried 3 different web frameworks. Apparently I'm doing it wrong. 18:47:54 yes, you should start writing your own 18:47:59 obviously :) 18:48:01 -!- wormphlegm [~wormphleg@24.130.9.50] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:48:09 wormphlegm [~wormphleg@24.130.9.50] has joined #lisp 18:48:48 -!- Aramur [~Aramur@102.Red-79-154-74.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Aramur] 18:49:29 Weblocks throws an error on their demo (no default store) or try to make an "app" (something about compiling weblocks-scripts. I don't even know.). Caveman actually serves pages, but I can't seem to get it to update when I change its example files, even after restarting my REPL and the server. And WuWei? Can't even figure out how to serve stuff. 18:50:21 -!- arademaker [~user@187-126-124-18.user.veloxzone.com.br] has left #lisp 18:51:25 Viaken2: I've had good mileage with restas 18:51:28 fwiwf 18:51:34 s/fwiwf/fwiw/ 18:51:47 Viaken2: Cavemab's annotations are problematic 18:52:08 j_king: I'll give it a look. 18:52:36 vlion_: I'm not even sure what that means. Fairly new to Lisp, here. 18:52:44 can get even so far as basic CRUD macros 18:54:52 -!- wormphlegm [~wormphleg@24.130.9.50] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:56:40 I've had good mileage from doing my own thing on top of Hunchentoot... modulo rfc2388 issues and the way hunchentoot keeps changing how to hook up handlers into the web listeners. 18:57:22 dunkyp [~dunkyp@static.185.64.4.46.clients.your-server.de] has joined #lisp 18:57:39 Houl [~Parmi@unaffiliated/houl] has joined #lisp 18:57:42 nyef: Fair enough. I don't mind doing that, as I was just playing around, but I wanted to look at what extras the frameworks may include. 18:58:01 normanrichards [~normanric@rrcs-108-178-120-144.sw.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:58:03 I'm currently working on my own web framework on top of HT, but it is probably years away from me daring to release it. 18:58:18 Viaken2: not as much as more mature, actively developed frameworks in whatever blub language you're coming from. ;) 18:58:42 but you're trading that power for lisp which is a pretty good deal, imo 18:59:22 francogrex [~user@109.128.89.5] has joined #lisp 19:00:03 what do you think of this project? https://github.com/blitz/nixon 19:00:26 Viaken2: The @get stuff is the annotations. 19:00:51 j_king: Python, with experience with Flask and Django, but yeah. Lisp appeals to me on an ideological basis. I've not grokked it yet, but I keep coming back to it. 19:00:54 vlion_: Ah ok. 19:01:27 I don't think restas docs are up to date with code, iirc 19:02:17 nbouscal [~nbouscal@67.168.113.48] has joined #lisp 19:03:09 wormphlegm [~wormphleg@24.130.9.50] has joined #lisp 19:03:13 Viaken2: I was a hardcore Pythonista until I lost an argument with Fade and learned CL to "prove" he was wrong. Turns out I was; CL is awesome. ;) 19:04:22 I'm somehow a bit disappointed that Python never really grabbed me, even after working with it at my job for half a year. 19:05:08 ehaliewicz [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 19:07:30 fitzsim [~user@nat/cisco/x-gatiaonknqjnejaw] has joined #lisp 19:07:38 Shinmera: I had the same reaction. I wanted to find the cool thing that was why it was great ("has great libraries" is important, but not cool), and somehow never did. 19:07:49 -!- Sagane [~Sagane@177.100-226-89.dsl.completel.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:07:50 smazga [~acrid@64.55.45.194] has joined #lisp 19:07:57 Shinmera: It's one of the many languages I write code in (typically just bugfixes) w/o really knowing. 19:07:58 tcr [~tcr@77-56-40-229.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 19:08:32 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:08:38 Yeah, the enthusiasm python people show seemed to promise a lot more than I got out of it. 19:09:13 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 19:09:36 Is there a way to make a slot's :allocation :final-class or something, such that a mixin could add a slot to whatever class the mixin is being added to, rather than having the slot be allocated on the mixin? It seems like maybe a metaclass mixin would be better, but that (seemes to) raises all sorts of other issues 19:09:49 Erlang, Haskell, and heck even JavaScript seem to have things that are obviously cool... I wish I knew what it was for Python and Ruby. 19:10:26 bobbysmith007: Not obviously. Maybe if you could say why you wanted to do this it would be more clear. 19:10:27 A basic example: a mixin to ease printing classes that has a slot that is slots-to-print 19:10:58 bobbysmith007: no, you need to specify :allocation for each class to do that 19:11:44 -!- _d3f [~gnu@94.242.252.66] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.1] 19:12:20 stassats: thats what I had gathered from the spec, I guess I was just hoping for :allocation sb:do-what-i-want or some such 19:12:30 bobbysmith007: So why can't that slot be on the MIXIN? It's not the *slot* that needs to be on some other class AFAICT, it's the slot *values* that need to be inferred from the other class(es). 19:12:35 -!- tcr [~tcr@77-56-40-229.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 19:13:48 jangle [~jimmy1984@198.151.8.4] has joined #lisp 19:14:09 does anyone know a portable debugging library ? 19:14:18 cl-stepper. 19:14:29 You want the slots-to-print to pile up through inheritance, right? which suggests something like %MY-SLOTS-TO-PRINT class allocated slot that would be accumulated into the return value of SLOTS-TO-PRINT method. 19:14:33 Not a complete debugging library, but a stepper/tracer that can help. 19:14:56 rpg: well the slot can be instance allocated on the mixin and it works fine, other than all instances having a copy of that list (instead of a single copy they all reference)... Its probably not a big deal, I just have a couple different book-keeping mixins now that all have lists of slot-names for various purposes and it seems like information about the final class being defined more specificially than about the instances there of 19:15:13 rpg: For ruby is about libraries and for pretty much anything you want to do you just write a couple lines of glue code and your done. 19:15:18 francogrex: full name: :com.informatimago.common-lisp.lisp.cl-stepper 19:15:34 nightshade427: so same as Python. 19:15:49 Ruby and Python syntaxes are just so horrible. 19:15:58 j_king: restas is working. Thanks! 19:15:59 rpg: I haven't used python much so can say. I have used ruby for 5 years. 19:16:03 Why is it hash[key] instead of hash.get(key) ? 19:16:04 -!- optikalmouse_ [~quassel@gw.trapeze.com] has quit [Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.] 19:16:12 Can = can't 19:16:20 optikalmouse [~quassel@gw.trapeze.com] has joined #lisp 19:17:14 [] is just hash.[](key) 19:17:26 [] == get 19:17:31 Or set 19:17:41 -!- boycottg00gle [~user@stgt-5f71a37a.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:17:43 gadjo [~gggg@109.102.72.188] has joined #lisp 19:18:04 Hash.[]=(key, value) 19:18:05 nightshade427: that's what I'm saying: horrible syntax. Nobody would (defun [] (k h) (gethash k h)). 19:18:18 -!- jagaj [~AdmiralBu@pool-71-99-141-240.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: jagaj] 19:18:24 pjb: agreed 19:18:47 pjb: I assume in python it's because dictionaries are a type, rather than an object. 19:18:50 nightshade427: so... why are you here at all? 19:18:56 Ya, why would I lisp, comparing apples to oranges ;) 19:19:11 Because I like lisp more at this point 19:19:18 -!- namtsui [~user@c-76-102-34-148.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:19:24 bobbysmith007: so do you want slots to print to be *overridden* at a subclass, or do you want to *accumulate* slots to print up the inheritance hierarchy? 19:19:29 I'm just answering your question realistically why people use ruby 19:19:46 I mean, already + - * and / are kind of a degenerecence compared to plus minus times and divide 19:20:00 PLUS MINUS TIMES and DIVIDE actually :-) 19:20:07 namtsui [~user@c-76-102-34-148.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:20:38 -!- Viaken2 [~dpflug@184.90.154.164] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:21:02 (equal 0 (plus (times a (square x)) (times b x) c)) 19:21:06 I am probably going to play with converting https://github.com/agentultra/Ambit into CL and going from there 19:21:17 dlowe: Your statement makes no sense? I like lisp that's why I'm here. I have used ruby for 5 years so could answer the question about why people use it. Can't people know and like more than one thing? 19:21:30 vs. (= 0 (+ (* a (² x)) (* b x) c)) 19:21:47 this seems to be resulting in an internal error http://wiki.alu.org/The%20Road%20To%20Lisp%20Survey 19:22:16 pjb: Indeed, lisp syntax is cleaner, but doesn't negate what I said about ease if use and glue code coding. 19:22:36 nightshade427: definitely. A lot of lisp code is glue code too. 19:22:39 If = of, sorry dang autocorrect :( 19:24:09 Sagane [~Sagane@177.100-226-89.dsl.completel.net] has joined #lisp 19:24:35 pjb: indeed, didnt say it wasnt ;) I just said people use ruby because there are lots of libraries and pretty much anything you can think to do is already done and you just write glue code. Ruby was based off of lisp (elisp iirc) and few other languages. 19:26:47 Rpg: Ruby and python bring part of the lisp dynamism without the parens. Also, historical accidents: Goog like(d?) python and ruby has RoR. I prefer lisp but there are reasons to pick python/ruby. *shrug*. 19:28:11 vlion_: sure. Just trying to figure out where to allocate my very few "learn new prog lang" cycles. Needs to pass Perlis test of teaching me something. If there's something like that for Py/Ruby wd like to know 19:28:17 thanks for the answers 19:28:39 -!- Harag [~Thunderbi@41-132-83-33.dsl.mweb.co.za] has quit [Quit: Harag] 19:29:01 Harag [~Thunderbi@41-132-83-33.dsl.mweb.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:29:06 Hey lispers - in the ECL source code that deals with backquote I see code that processes the splicing symbols ",@@" (two at-signs and called UNQUOTE-SPLICE) and ",." (called UNQUOTE-NSPLICE) - I don't see ",@" (single at-sign). I'm confused as to what ",@@" means and why I can't see the code for ",@". Does ",@@" have any special meaning or is it really ",@" and the second "@" is not being displayed? 19:29:14 CL will teach you how sub-par everything else is. ;) 19:29:30 <-- being facetious 19:30:00 -!- zacharias [~zacharias@unaffiliated/zacharias] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.2-dev] 19:30:11 DalekBaldwin [~Adium@71-84-34-33.dhcp.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has joined #lisp 19:31:05 -!- Harag [~Thunderbi@41-132-83-33.dsl.mweb.co.za] has quit [Client Quit] 19:32:25 -!- gadjo [~gggg@109.102.72.188] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 19:32:36 drmeister: i would presume it's escaping 19:32:41 Harag [~Thunderbi@41-132-83-33.dsl.mweb.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:33:06 -!- Modius [~user@cpe-70-112-159-86.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:33:40 stassats: That's what I thought - but '@' isn't an escaping character in standard CL like '\' is - is it? 19:33:52 -!- dtw [~dtw@pdpc/supporter/active/dtw] has quit [Quit: Zzzz] 19:34:01 no 19:34:32 it's in the C code 19:36:09 I think I figured it out. ECL C source files are fed through a preprocessor and '@' is used to indicate symbols - the preprocessor is treating it like an escape character. Now that I thought to look at the preprocessed source I can see that it's converted into a ",@" string. 19:36:22 stassats: Thanks for the pointer. 19:37:00 pjb thanks i tried cl-stepper 19:37:01 ehu [~Erik@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 19:38:20 -!- harish [~harish@cm32.zeta224.maxonline.com.sg] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:38:21 -!- Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:38:38 -!- Bike [~Glossina@174-25-57-220.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:38:46 harish [~harish@cm32.zeta224.maxonline.com.sg] has joined #lisp 19:38:57 -!- vlion_ [~vlion@66-87-74-84.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi] 19:40:01 Bike [~Glossina@174-25-57-220.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 19:40:34 s00pcan [~chris@108-208-64-149.lightspeed.livnmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:40:35 -!- AeroNotix [~xeno@abnz215.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Read 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22:28:52 Could anyone recommend me any good resources for learning lisp? 22:29:01 minion: pcl 22:29:01 pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 22:30:55 -!- Munksgaard [~philip@93-165-20-11-dynamic.dk.customer.tdc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 22:35:41 DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@1.130.69.229] has joined #lisp 22:39:38 nialo [~nialo@ool-18bbb124.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 22:39:57 tcr [~tcr@77-56-40-229.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 22:41:10 -!- victor_lowther [~victorlow@143.166.116.80] has quit [Quit: Leaving IRC - dircproxy 1.2.0] 22:44:21 -!- tcr [~tcr@77-56-40-229.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:44:44 Bike: so common lisp is mostly used lisp version these days? 22:44:51 btw the books looks really good 22:45:45 There's also Scheme and Clojure, depends on what your taste is, really. 22:46:01 Shinmera: do they differ much? 22:46:21 Well, they're rather different dialects 22:46:23 Shinmera: I mean if you learn Common Lisp, would it be hard to learn Clojure for example? 22:46:46 no. it would not be hard to learn fortran or ML either. 22:46:55 arnsa: this channel is about Common Lisp, by the way. 22:47:22 Bike: ah, didn't know. 22:49:44 ejohnson [~Thunderbi@c-67-181-201-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:50:41 -!- Shinmera [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:52:53 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@173-228-44-92.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:53:19 victor_lowther [~victorlow@143.166.116.80] has joined #lisp 22:53:31 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 22:54:47 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:56:07 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-131-74.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:56:48 -!- drmeister 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[~jfelice@cpe-107-10-62-199.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:49:37 So is it bad (only from a language spec type way) to say something like: (loop (push (or (read nil) (return)) *foos*)) 23:50:36 Kruppe [~user@CPE602ad0938e9a-CM602ad0938e97.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 23:50:41 you mean (read nil nil nil)? 23:50:55 -!- ejohnson [~Thunderbi@c-67-181-201-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ejohnson] 23:51:12 bitonic`` [~user@94-201.77-83.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 23:51:31 Bike: OK. I thought you didn't need to pass the rest. 23:51:59 by default it will error on eof, but i think you want it to return nil on eof 23:52:02 I was asking only about the or/return. Which I'm comfortable with in Scheme, but no continuations. 23:52:05 anyway no, i think that's perfectly defined 23:52:20 -!- arnsa [~arnsa@78-63-18-208.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:53:58 until NIL is returned from read, everything's pushed to *foos* 23:55:34 I like when cute programming is well-defined.