00:03:05 -!- MusangKing [~CatMtKing@ed-uluka.dyn.ucr.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:05:08 -!- bege [~bege@S0106001d7e5132b0.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:07:17 damn someone turned off my device and didn't tell me. I've been chasing ghosts!!! 00:08:57 -!- Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 00:11:30 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@bzq-109-65-187-45.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 00:12:09 carlo5m [~carlo5m@c-71-198-252-62.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:13:35 jack_rabbit [~kyle@c-98-253-60-75.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:15:13 Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 00:15:44 stardiviner [~quassel@122.236.240.72] has joined #lisp 00:18:31 Corvidium [~cosman246@nat60-100.net.kcls.org] has joined #lisp 00:19:34 chu [~user@unaffiliated/chu] has joined #lisp 00:22:21 patojo [~boogie@wsip-98-172-168-236.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 00:22:26 -!- boogie [~boogie@wsip-98-172-168-236.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:23:31 I hate it when ghosts turn off my devices. 00:27:22 boogie [~boogie@wsip-98-172-168-236.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 00:27:49 -!- patojo [~boogie@wsip-98-172-168-236.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:30:26 -!- zajn [~zajn@adsl-68-127-117-232.dsl.frsn02.pacbell.net] has quit [Quit: zajn] 00:32:10 Wukix [~user@173-228-55-74.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 00:35:27 bege [~bege@S0106001d7e5132b0.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 00:35:33 -!- Gooder [~user@48.155.200.192.client.dyn.strong-in144.as13926.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:35:52 Gooder` [~user@48.155.200.192.client.dyn.strong-in144.as13926.net] has joined #lisp 00:38:36 -!- Gooder` [~user@48.155.200.192.client.dyn.strong-in144.as13926.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:38:46 Gooder` [~user@48.155.200.192.client.dyn.strong-in144.as13926.net] has joined #lisp 00:40:17 -!- turbopape [~turbopape@41.226.67.111] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:41:28 turbopape [~turbopape@41.226.67.111] has joined #lisp 00:41:42 -!- Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:45:56 -!- Corvidium [~cosman246@nat60-100.net.kcls.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 00:53:20 -!- Bike [~Glossina@67-5-192-198.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 00:57:09 -!- turbopape [~turbopape@41.226.67.111] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:59:52 Bike [~Glossina@71-222-61-58.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 01:00:44 -!- BitPuffin [~quassel@109.58.191.156.bredband.tre.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 01:01:34 Wukix: have you thought about using ZeroMQ/Jero for comms between Lisp and Java re mocl/Android? 01:05:20 -!- yacks [~py@180.151.36.168] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:06:31 -!- Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 01:08:08 -!- Anarch [~olaf@c-67-183-64-49.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 01:09:00 -!- namtsui [~user@c-98-207-129-116.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:09:03 -!- boogie [~boogie@wsip-98-172-168-236.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:10:24 Anarch [~olaf@c-67-183-64-49.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:10:35 -!- jangle [~jimmy1984@198.151.8.4] has quit [Quit: jangle] 01:15:42 Hey guys, new to CL although I've been using Clojure. What are the advantages of CL over Clojure for web applications? 01:16:54 -!- harish [~harish@cm32.zeta224.maxonline.com.sg] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:16:58 OneFourSeven: you get to use Common Lisp. 01:17:11 I really like Common Lisp and don't know Clojure, so that's a winning argument for me. 01:17:14 OneFourSeven: you can use the power of Common Lisp and the available libraries, in addition to access to all Java libraries, if using ABCL 01:17:16 YMMV. 01:17:52 There is less work available to reuse in CL, and the work that's available can be harder to reuse sometimes. 01:19:57 -!- Anarch [~olaf@c-67-183-64-49.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:19:59 ckoch786_ [~quassel@cpe-98-27-140-191.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:21:13 -!- nbouscal [~nbouscal@c-67-168-113-48.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has commenced electric sheep tracking protocol.] 01:22:46 I give it a try I guess. I'm going through On Lisp right now 01:22:47 OneFourSeven: an example: http://netzhansa.blogspot.com.au/2013/03/dealing-with-excel-files-from-common.html 01:23:42 I am not fond of On Lisp as an early book to read. 01:24:29 Any suggestions? 01:25:02 -!- seangrove [~user@208.80.69.42] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:25:28 seangrove [~user@208.80.69.42] has joined #lisp 01:25:34 I like Paradigms of AI Programming and Practical Common Lisp a lot. 01:27:43 +1 for Paradigms but it does get heavy, and you will have to shell out for actual paper. 01:30:05 another good one, available online is Gentle Intro. starts from the basics, which is a good foundation, so it's polar opposite from Practical Common Lisp, which is hands on all the way 01:30:13 http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/ 01:34:48 loke_: i have published a dist update with corrected metadata for cl-. 01:36:34 Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 01:40:41 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Excess Flood] 01:43:20 Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 01:44:18 nbouscal [~nbouscal@c-67-168-113-48.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:49:03 harish [~harish@119.234.180.185] has joined #lisp 02:02:20 -!- harish [~harish@119.234.180.185] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 02:03:22 -!- cgore [~cgore@24-241-110-250.static.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:04:33 cibs_ [~cibs@218.211.32.194] has joined #lisp 02:07:59 -!- cibs [~cibs@60-251-40-253.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 02:09:36 cibs [~cibs@118-163-170-73.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 02:10:49 -!- cibs_ [~cibs@218.211.32.194] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 02:20:40 -!- carlo5m [~carlo5m@c-71-198-252-62.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:23:16 carlo5m [~carlo5m@c-71-198-252-62.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:23:49 Anarch [~olaf@c-67-183-64-49.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:28:00 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@1.148.13.205] has quit [Quit: Bye] 02:28:45 Corvidium [~cosman246@c-24-143-118-11.customer.broadstripe.net] has joined #lisp 02:31:49 harish [harish@nat/redhat/x-izfpyxbklzfoaqnc] has joined #lisp 02:41:21 -!- brucem [~bmitchene@waywardmonkeys.com] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net] 02:41:51 -!- OneFourSeven [~OneFourSe@c-24-1-226-125.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has left #lisp 02:45:09 -!- nialo [~nialo@ool-18bc97c4.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [] 02:45:59 Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has joined #lisp 02:52:12 -!- seangrove [~user@208.80.69.42] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:54:35 jangle [~jimmy1984@ip-64-134-188-93.public.wayport.net] has joined #lisp 02:58:54 echo-area [~user@182.92.247.2] has joined #lisp 03:00:58 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:03:56 -!- jleija [~jleija@50.8.41.50] has quit [Quit: leaving] 03:09:50 -!- sellout [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:11:37 brucem [~bmitchene@waywardmonkeys.com] has joined #lisp 03:18:38 nydel [~nydel@ip72-197-245-1.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 03:21:28 Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 03:22:46 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Excess Flood] 03:24:49 Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 03:28:00 Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 03:43:43 hello #lisp 03:49:21 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 03:49:34 agree or disagree: if you're calling (eval) you're doing something wrong 03:51:49 -!- youlysses [~user@75-132-28-10.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Quit: Peace people. o/] 03:52:51 Most people would agree with that, I think. But of course, eval has it's uses. 03:53:03 Er, its. 03:53:33 -!- Bike [~Glossina@71-222-61-58.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 03:53:44 my entire devel team has come to a standstill arguing over this. i don't care personally. 03:54:02 rtoym: could you think of a particularly compelling use? 03:54:24 or not compelling even? hehe 03:54:34 read-eval-print. 03:54:37 :-) 03:54:50 lol 03:54:51 I never use eval, so I don't really know. 03:55:20 Bike [~Glossina@174-25-43-108.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 03:55:44 Generally you're doing it wrong -- unless you have some ongoing need for one-off evaluations -- and if you do, then you're probably doing it wrong. :) 03:55:50 compile is probably what you want instead of eval. 03:55:50 my understanding is that it gets used a lot in functions that could be macros? 03:55:54 runtime compilation. 03:56:57 nydel: Remember that eval happens in a null lexical environment, so it doesn't help with marology. 03:57:45 nydel: http://blog.racket-lang.org/2011/10/on-eval-in-dynamic-languages-generally.html 03:57:49 So just ask your team what problem they're trying to solve with eval. 03:58:41 it's not even part of the project, someone made a joke at (eval)'s expense & someone else made a joke at that person's expense and now nobody's working lol 03:59:57 benkard [~benkard@mnch-5d8691fe.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 04:00:19 Fire them all if they can't talk about it in terms of solving a problem. :) 04:00:22 we're writing a concurrency utility to keep track of "hot" events that need to "cool down" before they can happen again, for long-term strategy games 04:00:51 sykopomp` [~sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 04:01:17 i sent them to get coffee, Zhivago, from a place 45 minutes away. so i can write in peace for a couple hours 04:01:17 -!- Bike [~Glossina@174-25-43-108.ptld.qwest.net] has left #lisp 04:01:33 gave them //terrible// directions 04:01:40 -!- Anarch [~olaf@c-67-183-64-49.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:02:09 Fire yourself for being ineffectually evil. 04:02:56 Anarch [~olaf@c-67-183-64-49.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:03:05 i'm calling it a team-building exercise. thought it would tire them out. didn't remember about caffeine's effects until they'd left. 04:03:47 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:06:38 or are you saying i'm evil for writing long-term strategy games 04:06:45 because /that/ i understand 04:07:41 namtsui [~user@c-98-207-129-116.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:17:42 imh [~imh@108.90.41.180] has joined #lisp 04:18:20 -!- Harag [~Thunderbi@41-132-83-33.dsl.mweb.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 04:19:13 -!- Anarch [~olaf@c-67-183-64-49.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:20:05 Myk267 [~myk@unaffiliated/myk267] has joined #lisp 04:20:26 Anarch [~olaf@c-67-183-64-49.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:21:35 -!- benkard [~benkard@mnch-5d8691fe.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz] 04:24:12 ejohnson [~Thunderbi@c-67-181-201-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:26:19 sellout [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:37:17 thanks Nisstyre, this is really good 04:37:25 -!- bananagram [~bot@c-76-30-158-226.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:38:25 brilliant really. everyone should follow that link, it's a really insightful read on the idea of a form or program as an abstract 04:40:05 -!- ehaliewicz [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 04:41:41 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:42:00 nydel: where the hell do you work? 04:42:50 in san diego, a special projects branch of DCMA 04:42:50 it sounds like an awesome place lol 04:43:06 d'aww.... 04:43:08 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-161-17.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 04:43:25 -!- oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-159-189.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:43:35 oh thats not what I though it was 04:43:37 benkard [~benkard@mnch-5d8691fe.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 04:43:49 not at all 04:44:17 it is great. we have really vague assignments. right now we're just supposed to "investigate technologies involving self-sustaining internal economies" 04:44:32 loooool 04:44:45 whaat is that??? 04:44:52 oudeis [~oudeis@109.65.187.45] has joined #lisp 04:45:29 well we don't know. but here's what we think: there are all these pay-to-play video games & pay-to-interact dating services etc popping up 04:46:04 they take in actual currency and transform it into "gems" or "connection points" etc 04:47:14 many of these are getting large, significant even. & we think the government wants to be able to factor their values into reports about the state of our economy 04:47:23 oh 04:47:37 that tie in sounds less vague than I thought it was going to be 04:47:51 -!- benkard [~benkard@mnch-5d8691fe.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Client Quit] 04:47:55 well it's just our first interpretation, this project is new 04:48:14 we have to get abstract about what constitutes an "economy" 04:48:37 IRC might be an economy if you all are consumers and data is currency 04:48:45 well kind of, at the end of the day you want to see how well the companies who are running these economies are growing, right? 04:49:29 benkard [~benkard@mnch-5d8691fe.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 04:49:39 but does a non-revenue generating economy even count as adding value to the state of the national economy? 04:49:54 does it? 04:50:10 -!- benkard [~benkard@mnch-5d8691fe.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Client Quit] 04:50:10 well lets use IRC as an example 04:50:23 that depends on what constitutes value. because it's not gold anymore, honey. 04:50:38 guyal [~anonymous@207.88.181.2.ptr.us.xo.net] has joined #lisp 04:50:38 well thats true, but even if its cash 04:50:53 Understand the economy as a control system for the resources of the state, and it makes more sense. 04:51:09 ok so some us company runs the largest IRC network on the continent 04:51:34 With currency based systems, that is a distributed control system, delevating a degree of control to individuals in proportion to their currency use. 04:51:35 and if its free, because all we care about is the idea that we are measuring its worth in terms of traffic flow 04:51:41 Zhivago: nicely stated. and after that, we have to decide what abstracts can be added to the list of things we value as resources. 04:51:52 er, delegating. 04:52:13 aha, so then is the ultimate currency something like power? 04:52:18 I don't think that abstracts actually matter. 04:52:25 and what do we do when a currency is not quantifiable? 04:52:40 you mean literally not countable? or literally not currency? 04:52:48 Currency is fungible power. 04:53:25 i mean, jangle, we can only discuss amounts of abstract resources in terms of relativity 04:53:32 one person has more power than another person, less than another 04:53:43 ok 04:53:45 I don't think that it can be currency without being quantifiable. 04:53:57 initially i do not either 04:54:20 but the idea that money isn't real seems to be becoming less of a notion for hippies to smoke weed to & more of a reality 04:54:29 you need to distinguish between the resources and the control over the resources. 04:54:32 well so are you talking about needing to value a pay to participate dating network based on more than just the revenue that the network generates for the controlling interest? 04:54:57 Zhivago: but then "control" becomes its own abstract resource, doesn't it? 04:55:01 (for example) 04:55:23 nydel: Not within the economy. 04:55:43 well jangle, these pay-to-participate machines, they have an interesting property we're trying to define 04:55:55 what is that property? 04:56:00 the people who pay into them seem to pay into them at increasing amounts 04:56:13 but eventually that becomes stable 04:56:15 predictable 04:56:37 They are relatively simple conditioning mechanisms, using an irregular reinforcement schedule. 04:56:38 so that person is a part of their self-sustaining economy 04:57:04 you mean predictably increasing or predictably asymptotal 04:57:27 i mean they pay in more and more until they reach their maximum 04:57:31 then they stay there 04:57:49 these personality types tend to focus all their energy on one fantasy-land at a time 04:58:17 so all their disposable income goes -- WILL GO, that's the important part -- into their current pay-to-participate 04:58:28 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:58:31 It's the same mechanism as used in poker machines. 04:58:41 it //is// gambling, Zhivago 04:58:49 good observation 04:58:50 And it should probably be regulated like other addictive substances. 04:58:58 that's what we think too 04:59:11 companies like zynga, and a new company called kabam 04:59:35 they have profit models & MOs designed to exploit people with addictive personalities 04:59:44 so you're not wishing to model necessarily the revenue generated for the company, but rather attempt to get a grasp on the "addictiveness" of a given network/ 04:59:44 Generally it isn't outlawed because it provides for a valuable stupidity tax on low-income people. 05:00:00 so that it can be measured perhaps in relation to other networks 05:00:34 jangle, we're not exactly sure //what// we're wishing to model. that's the fun of my department :) 05:01:11 Zhivago: but as the systems becomes more complex, and entertaining for smarter people, they begin to tax a larger population than just the stupid 05:01:34 (thanks for saying "tax" -- that idea is going to springboard me into a lot of thought experiments) 05:02:12 I mean, literally -- the reason that poker machines are tolerated by the government is the taxable income stream it provides. 05:02:25 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:02:38 well taxes are just fees you pay to the government 05:02:39 but casinos, gambling all, it's regulated 05:02:40 Otherwise they'd be in the same category as heroin. 05:03:07 these new forms of gambling are not regulated at all 05:03:19 -!- imh [~imh@108.90.41.180] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:03:27 They will be, once the government can figure out how to get people to agree on how to tax it. 05:03:53 The current porn-crackdown is probably the start of that. 05:04:05 exactly! and it /might/ be my job to suggest a consensus 05:04:17 here's the terrible part though 05:04:30 a slot machine disguised as a farming game or virtual fish tank etc 05:04:59 it can display 10 treasure chests on the screen yet have the odds actually be not 1 in 10 but 1 in 10k 05:05:39 and with professional psychologists on staff, they can find the "sweet spot" - where people know they're being ripped off but like it enough not to quit 05:06:02 how this differs from black market heroin or crack, i don't know. 05:06:20 It lacks fungibility. 05:06:32 Bike [~Glossina@174-25-43-108.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 05:08:23 earlier today i broke "fungibility" down etymologically & found it to mean basically an intersection of "to work correctly" and "defunct/not" 05:08:26 Bike_ [~Glossina@174-25-43-108.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 05:08:38 but the concept is circled on the whiteboard 05:08:57 Zhivago: can you tell me about the "current porn-crackdown" -- i don't know about this 05:09:01 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 05:10:09 I think you got the etymology wrong -- it's from fungi vice -- to take the place of (functionally). 05:10:40 nydel: The UK is attempting to make porn access opt-in, South Korea has had a porn block happening for the last six months or so. 05:11:06 So much for freedom. 05:11:20 i.e. the government would work with private ISPs? 05:11:36 -!- Bike [~Glossina@174-25-43-108.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 05:11:38 Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 05:11:39 nydel: There are plenty of other cases, but it seems like the most excusable introduction of net regulation. 05:11:53 Yes, the ISPs are required to support it, etc. 05:12:07 Once they can block porn sites, then they can block anything. 05:12:08 good lord 05:12:14 Oddity: you said it 05:12:21 -!- Bike_ [~Glossina@174-25-43-108.ptld.qwest.net] has left #lisp 05:12:38 Zhivago: i //hate// it when the "slippery slope" fallacy is true. it's so difficult to argue 05:12:41 Freedom has always been an illusion -- it is just another form of property. 05:13:18 i mean obviously you are correct. once they can block information by their own classification they can change the criteria or interpretation thereof 05:13:46 is property an illusion too, Zhivago? 05:14:22 Property is the degree to which you can control access to something. 05:14:44 Unless you are a state, it is by virtue of whatever power the state decides to delegate to you, that you have property. 05:16:17 so the regency owns the True Land, and whatever is on the land, they own: the right to say to whom belongs what, the ability to enforce this will, & --after all-- the entirety of the stuff as well 05:16:32 -!- bondar [~bondar@197.156.132.62] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:16:33 Sure, and not just land. 05:16:37 do they own the people too? 05:16:42 own the owners? 05:17:04 Sure -- your freedom is just the degree to which you can control access to yourself -- the degree to which you are your own property. 05:17:30 benkard [~benkard@mnch-5d8691fe.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 05:17:37 (good lord, i'm watching the UK PM speak on the pornography ban... using child pornography to evoke emotional kneejerk support... this is sad stuf) 05:18:09 -!- benkard [~benkard@mnch-5d8691fe.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Client Quit] 05:18:09 Well, apply your addiction model to pornography, and see what you pull out of that hat. 05:18:13 the degree to which you can control access to yourself. that is just so well-worded. 05:18:24 -!- ejohnson [~Thunderbi@c-67-181-201-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 05:18:30 okay okay let me see what happens when i do that 05:18:58 i don't see any relation if pornography is free 05:19:06 oh maybe i do 05:19:20 because some of these games are free, but then to "get the good stuff" you have to pay 05:19:30 and the free part gives you a taste for the good stuff 05:19:33 my my. 05:20:17 Being free isn't the important part -- it's a matter of mechanisms that hijack our built-in reinforcement and learning systems. 05:20:43 Once you have such a mechanism, you can use it to train people to do what you want, which includes having them give you money. 05:20:58 money, time, effort. 05:21:04 souls. 05:22:13 Bike [~Glossina@174-25-43-108.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 05:22:54 Zhivago: feel free to ignore this & i apologize if i cross a line, but i wonder if you'd consider yourself addicted to anything 05:23:26 wat 05:24:42 I don't think that there is a hard line regarding addiction. I would certain suffer to various degrees if certain things were taken away from me -- hot water, internet access, etc -- but I do not believe that I have any overwhelming addictions. 05:26:41 of course hot water is a luxury, unlike were you to say water which is a necessity 05:26:49 but internet access.. i think that's not what you really mean 05:27:02 you mean information 05:27:11 internet access is just your favorite dealer 05:27:15 No. I mean internet access. I always have access to information. 05:27:35 The internet comes with styles and modes of habitual operation. 05:27:51 Replacing it with newspapers carrying the same content would not be equivalent. 05:28:27 are the other users an integral part of the experience? 05:28:40 Sure. 05:28:40 assuming the internet were as it is 05:28:48 -!- Bike [~Glossina@174-25-43-108.ptld.qwest.net] has left #lisp 05:28:48 with all content (put in place by other users) as it is 05:29:43 if all that were somehow there, the same - but direct interaction with other users was taken away - how diminishing would that be of your experience? 05:31:23 People are creatures of habit and association. It need not be a diminishment in order to cause a sense of withdrawal. 05:32:09 Why do you think people get attached to certain poker machines? 05:34:18 If you want to understand this, I suggest reading over the classic papers on superstitious behaviour in animals. 05:34:29 -!- Kabaka [~Kabaka@botters/kabaka] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:35:47 are there cases on non-mammals? 05:36:23 Sure. Pigeons, for example. 05:36:51 It's all pretty much due to how we infer causality from correlation. 05:37:27 intuitively, unfortunately. 05:37:57 Kabaka [~Kabaka@botters/kabaka] has joined #lisp 05:38:08 Zhivago: this is all really great, you're a lot more helpful for triangulation suggestions than my eliza-like chatbots :) 05:38:50 no matter how much i tell her, she just keeps asking me to tell her more about "that" as if she has any idea which "that" we're on 05:39:34 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@95.56.67.93] has joined #lisp 05:39:34 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@95.56.67.93] has quit [Changing host] 05:39:34 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 05:40:33 "intuitively" doesn't mean much, unfortunately. 05:40:55 Anyhow, check those out, and then read up on operant conditioning and irregular reinforcement schedules. 05:41:44 joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@c-98-208-36-36.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:43:24 right that's a lot more specific and accurate than 'intuitively' or 'not analytically' 05:44:20 thank you so much for taking the time to talk & share & point me at things i don't know 05:45:05 You're welcome; 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Can you teach me how? 07:21:23 jewel [~jewel@105-236-99-241.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 07:21:39 No I cannot. You can read code though. 07:21:51 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-131-74.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 07:22:08 oceabreeze: sure, it's easy. first you learn lisp (i suggest learning Common Lisp); then you learn how cool websites are built; and then you do that in Common Lisp. 07:23:13 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p4FE64CF8.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 07:23:27 hehe 07:23:58 ah man 07:24:02 humour at 1:18 am 07:24:30 haha 07:25:57 -!- nfkd [c94c1366@gateway/web/freenode/ip.201.76.19.102] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 07:30:24 carlo5m [~carlo5m@c-71-198-252-62.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:32:14 (format out "~{~a~^, ~}" lst) lets me output a comma separated list 07:32:25 but how would I specify the separator as a parameter? 07:32:50 (format out "~{~a~^ ~a ~}" lst separator) doesn't consume the separator argument 07:34:51 pkkm [~pawel@ajs32.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 07:34:57 -!- carlo5m [~carlo5m@c-71-198-252-62.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 07:35:10 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@109.65.187.45] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 07:36:04 ndrei [~avo@mtl93-2-82-66-118-59.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 07:39:17 nilsi [~nilsi@109.58.55.5.bredband.tre.se] has joined #lisp 07:40:31 thehandler [~this@41.89.164.16] has joined #lisp 07:40:55 hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@109.120.56.204] has joined #lisp 07:43:49 format the format string 07:45:04 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-140-217.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:45:22 could do that... now I just used a loop instead 07:46:02 is there a way in the loop to tell if you're in the last iteration without keeping a counter when you're iterating over a list? 07:46:59 capisce_: you can use ON instead of IN, like (loop for (item . rest) on list ...), and check the rest variable 07:48:20 djz: clever. When I need to put something between the elements, I usually track the _first_ element instead using: for first = t then nil 07:49:18 jdz: great 07:56:18 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:58:50 -!- bitonic`` [~user@2a02:1205:34dc:95e0:8e70:5aff:fe81:dd50] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 07:59:01 capisce_, there's a utility for this :) 07:59:22 capisce_, http://quickutil.org/list?q=separated-string-append 08:00:53 rannger [~user@113.108.131.227] has joined #lisp 08:02:03 arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-yxjdjjmsowzhvqzb] has joined #lisp 08:03:10 Quadrescence: FORMAT already exists 08:03:12 :-) 08:04:23 -!- sdemarre [~serge@109.134.134.139] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 08:05:33 thanks, i forgot all about format 08:17:46 zacharias [~zacharias@unaffiliated/zacharias] has joined #lisp 08:20:51 bitonic`` [~user@77-56-49-28.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 08:26:59 Sagane [~Sagane@177.100-226-89.dsl.completel.net] has joined #lisp 08:27:09 -!- harish [harish@nat/redhat/x-izfpyxbklzfoaqnc] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:30:42 if I have a recursive function that has is passing itself large lists/vectors/hash-maps etc how optimal is it? E.g. you have a large hash-map that is used in the function all the time without any changes and you're passing it recursively. Is that costly? 08:31:05 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 08:32:05 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-131-74.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 08:32:26 I wouldn't say so, but you can use a closure if you're super worried about it. 08:33:24 morphling [~stefan@gssn-4d002e2e.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 08:35:15 I'm doing a homework on searching strongly connected components of a graph that has about 700k vertices and over 5m edges. I'm running a sort of a depth first search I wrote on it and it's taking a really long time. I'm just not sure if the code is so bad or if the task to compute is too large anyway 08:35:43 arrsim` [~user@2001:44b8:415c:cc01:6ef0:49ff:fe5e:dedb] has joined #lisp 08:38:29 Have you benchmarked? Good choice of data structure for your graph? 08:41:33 I didn't benchmark, how would you suggest benchmarking? As for data structures - I have a hash map where key = vertex and value = list of neighbors (e.g. adjacecny list in a hash map). Then there's another hash map where the vertices visited have t as value. You need a stack for searching so a list seemed ok for that 08:42:58 jdz: Holy shit man, Lisp looks super hard to me. 08:43:08 jdz: Cant understand anything. 08:44:18 -!- zacharias [~zacharias@unaffiliated/zacharias] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:44:41 oceabreeze: this is when the "learning" part comes in. 08:51:14 -!- nilsi [~nilsi@109.58.55.5.bredband.tre.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:52:53 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has quit [Quit: Close the world, Open the nExt] 08:54:40 jdz: Where should i start? 08:55:04 jdz: I am really bad at math, but i have little expirience in Ruby/ RoR. 08:55:36 oceabreeze: are you using PCL to learn? It should fit such background pretty well 08:56:23 p_l: Printer Command Language? 08:56:23 oceabreeze: later on, I recommend finding a copy of Skiena's Algorithm Design Manual to kickstart learning about foundations of computing in general :) 08:56:31 oceabreeze: no, Practical Common Lisp 08:56:36 minion: tell oceabreeze about pcl 08:56:36 oceabreeze: direct your attention towards pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 08:57:13 -!- Bike [~Glossina@174-25-43-108.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:57:18 There's also a quite nice introduction to manipulation and use of structures built from CONS cells (lists, trees, etc) in Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Programming 08:57:24 minion: tell oceabreeze about gentle 08:57:24 oceabreeze: look at gentle: "Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation" is a smoother introduction to lisp programming. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/ 08:57:32 Bike [~Glossina@174-25-43-108.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 08:57:57 -!- arrsim` [~user@2001:44b8:415c:cc01:6ef0:49ff:fe5e:dedb] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:58:14 p_l: gentle is way too gentle if you've had any exposure to programming before. 08:58:49 loke: True. But I found the visualization of cons cells to be nice and helpful 08:58:58 and I still got copy of sdraw.lisp somewhere because of it 08:59:14 arrsim` [~user@2001:44b8:415c:cc01:6ef0:49ff:fe5e:dedb] has joined #lisp 08:59:18 namtsui [~user@c-76-102-34-148.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:59:30 p_l: yeah, compressing that into one chapter and use it as an appendinx to PCL would be a nice solution 09:00:10 loke: that's why I recommend Gentle as an extra to get better hang of the whole "symbolic" part 09:00:39 p_l: yeah, but most sane people would get bored to death before it gets to the interesting parts. :-) 09:00:49 heh 09:00:53 p_l: one has to be very selective when reading it 09:00:58 sdemarre [~serge@109.134.134.139] has joined #lisp 09:01:00 Hmm, looks interesting! Ill take a look :) 09:01:17 loke: that's why I recommend it second, after PCL gets its hooks into reader :> 09:02:00 p_l: I agree with that 09:02:47 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-131-74.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 09:03:48 peterhil [~peterhil@158.127.31.162] has joined #lisp 09:04:12 [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has joined #lisp 09:04:36 it ran 50 minutes 09:09:32 francis_wolke [62cf9ba1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.98.207.155.161] has joined #lisp 09:14:21 BitPuffin [~quassel@109.58.191.156.bredband.tre.se] has joined #lisp 09:17:04 -!- jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@bl18-71-14.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:18:41 Sagane_ [~Sagane@177.100-226-89.dsl.completel.net] has joined #lisp 09:19:25 agumonkey [~agu@179.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 09:19:43 -!- Sagane [~Sagane@177.100-226-89.dsl.completel.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:20:17 -!- Sagane_ is now known as Sagane 09:20:57 oceabreeze: cliki.net 09:21:04 pay attention to the online tutorials + books sections 09:21:08 tons of free resources 09:21:19 -!- nug700_ [~nug700@209-181-103-240.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: bye] 09:21:27 lisp jr. is a great little set of structured tutorials for beginners 09:21:52 the only thing you can do is pick a simple project and just go 09:22:21 -!- ndrei [~avo@mtl93-2-82-66-118-59.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:22:28 cosmonaut [~cosmonaut@nat-gw1.edb.se] has joined #lisp 09:22:37 przl [~przlrkt@p54BD2C0D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 09:27:08 foreignFunction [~niksaak@ip-4761.sunline.net.ua] has joined #lisp 09:28:14 xificurC, maybe it's better to experiment with smaller data sets to see which parts are slow 09:31:35 jewel: yes it seems I'll have to. Also some other folks say it takes them about 2 seconds -_- 09:31:56 xificurC, in Common Lisp? 09:32:27 jewel: in C and Java 09:32:58 but I doubt Java would be 1500x faster than CL 09:33:10 Looks like you must have some nasty bottlenecks 09:33:46 xificurC, the Common Lisp data structures might be slower, but probably only 10x or so, you definitely need to look at your algorithms and graph representation 09:33:58 ndrei [~avo@mtl93-2-82-66-118-59.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 09:34:19 I'm still wondering what happens in the background when you pass a large list or hash map to a function, does the whole thing get copied or is a pointer passed or what 09:34:46 a pointer gets passed 09:34:51 xificurC, it just passes a reference 09:35:06 xificurC: nearly everything is passed by reference, iirc 09:35:24 Joreji [~thomas@152-013.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 09:35:55 Actually, everything is passed by value. The pointer to the cons is passed by value 09:36:10 so what happens when you have a closure around that function you passed a hash map to and you change the hash map 09:36:10 Exactly the same as in Java, if that helps 09:36:20 Was just about to say what loke said 09:36:30 inside you should be able to change it but the outside one shouldn't change right 09:36:44 or am I getting lost :) 09:37:16 I am definitely getting lost, the outside value should change too 09:37:20 the closure only wraps the reference to the hash map itself, not the hash-map's contents 09:38:45 loke: well, yes. But it gets sometimes twisted trying to shoehorn how other languages call all that :D 09:40:52 well I dont see where else could the bottlenecks be. When I'm searching for something i'm only doing so in hash-maps and when I'm using lists I'm only appending to the front of the big one and am only retrieving the car 09:42:29 Well then the next step is to look if you can optimize how many times you look for things in the maps, if you're doing unnecessary double loops, etc. 09:42:45 jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@193.137.28.184] has joined #lisp 09:44:29 pierre1 [~pierre1@179.218.154.208] has joined #lisp 09:46:21 Shinmera: you said before that CL data structures can be 10x slower than Java ones? 09:46:29 That ain't me 09:46:48 oh it was jewel, sry 09:46:53 is it true though? 09:48:39 xificurC, it depends on a lot of things but as I said before, that's probably not affecting your program 09:49:38 My own guess is nested loops that shouldn't be nested or nested differently. 09:50:37 -!- quazimod1 [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:50:55 jewel: I know its not the main issue, I was just curious 09:53:25 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p54BD2C0D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: leaving] 09:53:47 przl [~przlrkt@p54BD2C0D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 09:53:50 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 09:54:41 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@158.127.31.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 09:55:11 -!- pierre1 [~pierre1@179.218.154.208] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:57:13 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-131-74.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:57:58 xificurC, generally speaking you can find this kind of variation across many different languages or language implementations. CL is not particularly slow and indeed there are great implementations, such as SBCL, which can produce very efficient code in the hands of an expert 09:59:18 -!- doomlord [~doomlod@host86-180-26-144.range86-180.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:01:54 -!- ndrei [~avo@mtl93-2-82-66-118-59.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:04:13 b#e 10:04:16 oops 10:13:04 -!- Anarch [~olaf@c-67-183-64-49.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 10:13:57 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:13:58 ndrei [~avo@mtl93-2-82-66-118-59.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 10:14:55 Anarch [~olaf@c-67-183-64-49.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:19:08 -!- echo-area [~user@182.92.247.2] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:19:41 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-4d002e2e.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 10:20:34 Sagane_ 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[having@irc.upasna.in] has quit [*.net *.split] 10:59:16 -!- schoppenhauer [~quassel@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [*.net *.split] 10:59:16 -!- pellegrino [~pellegrin@85.17.26.2] has quit [*.net *.split] 10:59:16 -!- antifuchs [~foobar@boots.boinkor.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 10:59:16 -!- phadthai [mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 10:59:16 -!- ered [~ered@75-101-56-39.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 10:59:17 -!- Blkt [~Blkt@2a01:4f8:150:80a1::aaaa] has quit [*.net *.split] 10:59:17 -!- Guest878` [~user@124x33x192x194.ap124.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has quit [*.net *.split] 10:59:17 -!- j_king [~jking@mortar.walled.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 10:59:17 -!- daem0n [popoki@unaffiliated/mryaargh] has quit [*.net *.split] 10:59:18 -!- guaqua [gua@hilla.kapsi.fi] has quit [*.net *.split] 10:59:18 -!- cpt_nemo [cpt_nemo@rfc1459.de] has quit [*.net *.split] 10:59:22 jking [~jking@mortar.walled.net] has joined #lisp 10:59:23 phadthai [mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has joined #lisp 10:59:24 Guest878` [~user@124x33x192x194.ap124.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 10:59:24 Blkt [~Blkt@2a01:4f8:150:80a1::aaaa] has joined #lisp 10:59:25 guaqua [gua@hilla.kapsi.fi] has joined #lisp 10:59:32 ered [~ered@75-101-56-39.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 10:59:41 loke: does cl-hchschcstl work better for you now? 10:59:42 pellegrino [~pellegrin@85.17.26.2] has joined #lisp 10:59:45 -!- mericarp71 [~mericarp7@c-67-182-147-102.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: mericarp71] 11:00:18 let me try 11:00:21 daem0n [popoki@2607:f5a0:0:162:225:90ff:fe57:5e05] has joined #lisp 11:00:44 -!- daem0n is now known as Guest72402 11:00:55 Xach: ... that's... a wonderful lib name 11:01:08 ugh, it still has problems 11:01:11 what a fucked-up system file 11:01:19 hitecnologys: Why did you write it so strangely? 11:02:37 Xach: I'm getting system not found 11:02:37 -!- krishnak [~krishnak@204.28.120.61] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:05:41 -!- Sagane_ [~Sagane@177.100-226-89.dsl.completel.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 11:06:15 loke` [~user@42.61.218.195] has joined #lisp 11:06:27 I got system not found Error 11:06:48 -!- loke [~user@42.61.218.195] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:11:15 benkard [~benkard@dhcp-138-246-84-110.dynamic.eduroam.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 11:12:36 -!- holycow [~holycow@host-216-251-135-194.bchsia.skywaywest.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 11:12:56 intracardially86 [~intracard@c-67-182-147-102.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:14:18 jewel_ : thanks for the info 11:14:20 -!- intracardially86 [~intracard@c-67-182-147-102.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 11:15:09 -!- Adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:22:13 -!- ndrei [~avo@mtl93-2-82-66-118-59.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 11:24:44 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-131-74.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 11:24:50 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Excess Flood] 11:25:55 Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 11:27:53 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 11:29:26 ndrei [~avo@mtl93-2-82-66-118-59.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 11:35:25 -!- pkhuong [~pkhuong@24.37.239.86] has left #lisp 11:37:05 -!- agumonkey [~agu@179.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 11:37:40 xificurC, did you finish your assignment? 11:38:06 Xach: ah, sorry, I was afk. 11:39:16 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p54BD2C0D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:39:29 Xach: I put method inside system def file because I can't find any other suitable place for it. What is the correct one? 11:39:30 jewel_: I'm working on it but I'm at work and have some other stuff to do as well 11:39:31 hitecnologys: ... is cl-hchschcstl yours? 11:39:49 -!- ndrei [~avo@mtl93-2-82-66-118-59.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 11:39:52 jewel_: rewriting it from scratch now since there was a couple of errors in it 11:39:53 p_l: yep, but it's cl-hctsmsl for HcTsMsL=HTML+CSS 11:39:57 were* 11:40:18 -!- sdemarre [~serge@109.134.134.139] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:40:20 p_l: I know how to name libs, yeah 11:40:29 hitecnologys: ... nevertheless, the name is getting close to "Ph'nglui Mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn." 11:40:47 ... or some military acronyms 11:40:58 ndrei [~avo@mtl93-2-82-66-118-59.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 11:41:32 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 11:41:55 Making weird names is my hobby. I'm good at it. 11:42:39 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:43:23 I'll probably rename cl-hctsmsl soon but I haven't found any other nice phrase that could be the name yet. 11:43:44 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 11:43:48 cl-htmlcss ? 11:44:14 This one sounds too normal. 11:44:33 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-140-217.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 11:44:35 but it's pronounceable by human vocal chords 11:44:55 I can pronounce hctsmsl. 11:46:04 Anyway, I'm going to implement JS support, so I need to include JS to the name or just get rid of HTML and CSS and pick something different. 11:47:34 Does CL-Markright sounds like a good name? There's CL-Markup, CL-Markdown so we need CL-Markright and CL-Markleft. 11:48:07 fridim__ [~fridim@bas2-montreal07-2925317871.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 11:48:38 CL-MarkAuDessus 11:49:23 French? 11:49:58 yes 11:50:23 CL-Otmetit'Vishe 11:51:32 I like Russian :) 11:51:40 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 11:51:45 epokmedia [~epokmedia@APuteaux-153-1-44-128.w82-124.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 11:51:51 https://github.com/sionescu/posrednik :) 11:52:06 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Disconnected by services] 11:52:25 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 11:52:41 cl-- 11:52:45 -!- epokmedia [~epokmedia@APuteaux-153-1-44-128.w82-124.abo.wanadoo.fr] has left #lisp 11:53:17 Quadrescence: veb-markop? What does that mean? 11:53:38 some web markup language :) 11:53:41 loke`:  = web,  = markup. 11:53:47 drmeiste_ [~drmeister@166.137.104.170] has joined #lisp 11:53:48 of course :-) 11:54:17 -!- benkard [~benkard@dhcp-138-246-84-110.dynamic.eduroam.mwn.de] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com] 11:54:18 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@12.205.226.130] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:54:25 -!- zacharias [~zacharias@unaffiliated/zacharias] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.2-dev] 11:56:05 Actually,  is incorrect a bit.  is better because it matches pronunciation. 11:56:06 -!- BitPuffin [~quassel@109.58.191.156.bredband.tre.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:56:54 sturty67 [~sturty67@c-67-182-147-102.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:57:00 doesn't match romanization! 11:59:20 Sure, but just  doesn't sound like Russian word. 11:59:49 -!- bitonic`` [~user@77-56-49-28.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:59:51 yes i know, it was a joke 12:00:02 thanks for driving it into the ground 12:00:29 No problem. =) 12:00:55 veer [~veer@pool-71-100-236-211.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 12:01:19 -!- veer is now known as Guest54088 12:01:59 So, where should I put this (defmethod operate) form? 12:03:09 -!- _veer [~veer@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:03:15 s/operate/perform/ 12:03:53 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 12:04:57 przl [~przlrkt@p54BD2C0D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 12:05:12 benkard [~benkard@dhcp-138-246-84-110.dynamic.eduroam.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 12:05:32 -!- drmeiste_ [~drmeister@166.137.104.170] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:06:00 drmeister [~drmeister@12.205.226.130] has joined #lisp 12:06:07 Or whatever is wrong with my system? 12:08:13 Moral turpitude. 12:08:34 -!- benkard [~benkard@dhcp-138-246-84-110.dynamic.eduroam.mwn.de] has quit [Client Quit] 12:08:42 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:09:01 Zhivago: what do you mean? 12:09:16 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 12:11:46 benkard [~benkard@dhcp-138-246-84-110.dynamic.eduroam.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 12:16:09 hitecnologys: Why did you use :defsystem-depends-on? 12:16:29 does anybody here have access to a cygwin environment ? 12:17:56 Xach: I fixed that. I just thought that I should use :defsystem-depends-on in system declaration. What's the difference between :d-d-o and :d-o? 12:18:45 hitecnologys: one expresses what your project needs. the other expresses what the system definition itself needs. 12:19:37 hitecnologys: defsystem-depends-on is so rarely used, how did you find it and decide it was a good idea? maybe some documentation or example should be updated. 12:21:15 I remember trying to make hacks with defsystem-depends-on. The hacks did not work, however! 12:21:41 Xach: no, I just once got an error that something is missing so I thought that I should use :d-d-o and I got used to it. That's my fault, I admit it. 12:22:05 -!- francis_wolke [62cf9ba1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.98.207.155.161] has quit [Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client] 12:22:21 agumonkey [~agu@179.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 12:23:59 What else is wrong? 12:24:07 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Excess Flood] 12:25:15 -!- dsp__ is now known as dsp_ 12:25:23 I'm not sure. Pondering a second brownbag update. 12:26:52 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@12.205.226.130] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:27:44 hagish_ [~hagish@host-88-217-174-119.customer.m-online.net] has joined #lisp 12:29:56 brownbag? 12:30:10 -!- Joreji [~thomas@152-013.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 12:30:45 Joreji [~thomas@152-013.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 12:30:57 he means he's gonna brownbag a whisky with his laptop in a park and get quicklisp updated again, i think 12:32:26 bitonic`` [~user@77-56-49-28.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 12:32:31 drdo [~drdo@2a02:2498:e000:20::16f:2] has joined #lisp 12:32:40 antifuchs [~foobar@boots.boinkor.net] has joined #lisp 12:32:54 -!- nilsi [~nilsi@90-231-167-54-no213.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:33:05 loke`: where you have to release again quickly because of shameful errors. 12:33:13 ah 12:33:15 :-) 12:33:19 I've done that :-) 12:33:25 sweet_kid [having@irc.upasna.in] has joined #lisp 12:33:25 nilsi [~nilsi@90-231-167-54-no213.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 12:33:50 knob [~knob@76.76.202.244] has joined #lisp 12:37:58 Is this update somehow related to why my quicklisp hangs when I try to download cl-hctsmsl? 12:38:45 Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 12:38:53 hitecnologys: Yes 12:39:15 loke`: Could you explain why does this happen? 12:39:25 Gooder [~Gooder@221.197.4.111] has joined #lisp 12:39:43 hitecnologys: The asd file for that package is broken. Xach is fixing it and will release an update later. 12:40:26 loke`: ah, I see. 12:40:28 what package ? 12:41:01 Aramur [~Aramur@102.Red-79-154-74.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 12:41:27 -!- Gooder [~Gooder@221.197.4.111] has quit [Client Quit] 12:41:30 -!- Harag [~Thunderbi@105-236-205-79.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:42:01 Gooder [~Gooder@221.197.4.111] has joined #lisp 12:42:12 fe[nl]ix: hctsmsl probably. 12:42:18 -!- Gooder [~Gooder@221.197.4.111] has left #lisp 12:42:43 What is that package by the way? I came across the problem because I always test all new packages every time QL is released. 12:43:24 loke`: you mean what is cl-hctsmsl? 12:43:33 yes 12:43:41 HcTsMsL 12:43:49 loke`: it's my library for generating html and css. 12:43:51 joe9 [~user@ip70-179-153-227.fv.ks.cox.net] has joined #lisp 12:44:21 loke`: everybody complain about a name, I'll change in within a couple of days (adding JS support). 12:44:52 the new name will be: jhctsmsls 12:45:27 lol 12:45:30 -!- hagish_ [~hagish@host-88-217-174-119.customer.m-online.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 12:46:20 The cl- prefix for package names are usually for packages that is a CL version (or encapsulation) of some existing system. I.e. cl-ppcre, cl-postgres, cl-pdf 12:46:36 so I don't see a need to have the cl- prefix for your lib? 12:46:45 loke`: I don't think that's an accurate statement. 12:46:49 loke`, that's not true 12:46:52 loke`: that's just my habbit. 12:46:56 loke`: I think people use the cl- prefix for arbitrary reasons 12:47:13 Xach: some do, of course. 12:47:42 Should I remove it? 12:47:57 YES 12:48:04 Ok, no problem. 12:48:12 my arbitrary reason is: CL- is reserved for libraries that are written purely in CL that are generally useful 12:48:30 (but even I don't follow that convention always so it's useless) 12:48:38 What about unuseful pure CL libraries? 12:48:54 What about libraries that map to native libs? 12:48:59 My own example would be cl-gss 12:49:11 Zhivago: no such thing 12:49:33 loke`, your arbitrary reason should be: CL- is the CL version of native libs 12:49:40 -!- jangle [~jimmy1984@ip-64-134-188-93.public.wayport.net] has quit [Quit: jangle] 12:49:56 Quadrescence: exactly 12:50:01 I must say it is refreshing to not use the CL- prefix though 12:50:01 Quadrescence: but it's not pure CL 12:50:09 An odd sense of liberation. 12:50:25 sabra [~sabra@67.174.222.215] has joined #lisp 12:50:44 Quadrescence: I agree. I have three libs in QL, two of them have cl- prefixes. 12:53:10 -!- foreignFunction [~niksaak@ip-4761.sunline.net.ua] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:55:33 drmeister [~drmeister@wsip-98-175-98-176.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 12:58:55 *|3b|* has been thinking i should just prefix all my libs with 3b- so i can find them in the various "list of libs" people have been putting out lately (stuff like top downloads/dependencies in quicklisp, broken libs, etc) 12:59:11 `fogus [~fogus@freedom.d-a-s.com] has joined #lisp 12:59:35 That sounds sensible to me. 12:59:40 |3b|, use pjb's convention in my opinion 12:59:53 <|3b|> Quadrescence: yeah, that would work too 13:02:08 Is it ok if I write X.Y instead if X.Y.Z if Z is 0? 13:02:36 for version names? 13:02:40 Yep. 13:02:48 If you're at some point going to use 3 digits, then always use 3 digits. 13:04:12 Damn, I once made a mistake in commit message (forgot about third) and now I don't know what should I do. 13:04:15 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@158.127.31.162] has quit [Quit: Must not waste too much time here...] 13:04:32 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 13:04:39 amend the commit or don't worry about it 13:04:40 I decided that I should follow "new" convention now and I started naming version like X.Y. 13:04:42 sdemarre [~serge@109.134.134.139] has joined #lisp 13:05:09 Quadrescence: it's quite hard to do it because there's already about 6 or 7 of such commits. 13:05:19 i see 13:05:44 And somebody could have cloned sources so it will confuse him. 13:05:49 Should I amend anyway? 13:06:02 s/amend/rebase/ 13:06:31 <|3b|> nah, don't change published commits 13:06:38 -!- jking is now known as j_king 13:07:09 So, I should just leave them and move back to old version naming? 13:07:57 *|3b|* doesn't see how that follows 13:08:16 you can move to new version naming, just say so 13:08:30 <|3b|> whole point of version control is that stuff is changing :) 13:08:44 <|3b|> and to be able to go back to what it was before it changed 13:10:48 My worst nightmare is to make a stupid mistake (like forget to bump version number) and then push commit with it. It happens all the time to me and I can't figure out how to get rid of this. I even tried putting notification to check everything before commit but this didn't help. 13:10:50 statl [~statl@dslb-094-218-226-086.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 13:11:11 mgile [~mgile@74-92-220-177-Colorado.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 13:11:25 hitecnologys: Just commit a new update that fixes it. I don't see the problem? 13:11:32 <|3b|> so push to some intermediate site, and set it up to push to public repo after a day or so :) 13:11:43 <|3b|> (or just push a fix) 13:12:32 The problem is that I usually notice that when I already made lots of commit after that commit so I have to rebase everything. 13:12:45 -!- kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:13:01 So I usually push once a day, yeah, it helps somehow. 13:13:20 lifeng [~lifeng@218.22.21.23] has joined #lisp 13:14:47 Version numbers are retro 13:15:10 What's not retro then? 13:15:36 years. 13:15:46 Quicklisp 13 is coming out soon 13:16:12 20130722 13:17:01 20130723+7, timezones. 13:17:42 Food products 13:17:54 Quicklisp 13 - Fish Stew 13:18:15 Adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 13:18:18 It sounds exactly like Apple. 13:18:42 Microsoft should try that. 13:18:51 And I thought I was oozing irony 13:19:17 irc is not for irony. 13:20:01 that's what Feirc is for 13:20:20 teggi [~teggi@123.25.130.142] has joined #lisp 13:20:25 pnpuff- [~v_eskimo@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 13:21:09 -!- pnpuff- [~v_eskimo@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has left #lisp 13:22:57 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:26:50 -!- pchrist_ is now known as phrist 13:27:45 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p54BD2C0D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:27:45 -!- phrist is now known as pchrist 13:29:31 fortitude [~mts@rrcs-24-97-165-124.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:30:46 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:31:20 przl [~przlrkt@p54BD2C0D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 13:31:34 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 13:31:49 Ok, I changed a name. New address is https://github.com/HiTECNOLOGYs/HCTSMSL 13:32:00 s/a name/the name/ 13:32:48 Oh crap, it didn't remove cl-hctsmsl.asd for some reasons. 13:33:29 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 13:35:58 -!- jewel_ [~jewel@105-236-120-81.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:36:16 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p54BD2C0D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:36:19 przl_ [~przlrkt@p54BD0BDB.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 13:36:41 -!- Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 13:37:16 peterhil [~peterhil@dsl-hkibrasgw3-58c3d7-17.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 13:38:28 nyef [~nyef@c-50-157-244-41.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:38:58 Should I update issue about cl-hctsmsl that I renamed library or what? 13:41:41 normanrichards [~normanric@99.179.96.98] has joined #lisp 13:43:57 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:47:03 -!- sdemarre [~serge@109.134.134.139] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:47:45 teggi_ [~teggi@123.25.130.142] has joined #lisp 13:47:57 TDT [~user@173-17-121-48.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 13:48:22 -!- teggi [~teggi@123.25.130.142] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:49:35 -!- nilsi [~nilsi@90-231-167-54-no213.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:50:30 -!- joe9 [~user@ip70-179-153-227.fv.ks.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:54:45 -!- ndrei [~avo@mtl93-2-82-66-118-59.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:55:34 -!- sykopomp` is now known as sykopomp 13:56:34 Harag [~Thunderbi@41-132-83-33.dsl.mweb.co.za] has joined #lisp 13:59:10 ndrei [~avo@mtl93-2-82-66-118-59.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 13:59:17 stepnem [~stepnem@internet2.cznet.cz] has joined #lisp 14:01:00 -!- NickLevine [~chatzilla@ravenbrook.nsdsl.net] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90 [Firefox 21.0/20130511120803]] 14:02:12 quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 14:08:30 -!- chu [~user@unaffiliated/chu] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:08:32 oudeis [~oudeis@bzq-84-111-73-232.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 14:10:21 -!- loke` [~user@42.61.218.195] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:11:12 -!- benkard [~benkard@dhcp-138-246-84-110.dynamic.eduroam.mwn.de] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz] 14:11:56 Going to some other channels makes me so happy ones like #lisp exist. 14:13:01 -!- Aramur [~Aramur@102.Red-79-154-74.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Aramur] 14:13:02 oleo [~oleo@xdsl-84-44-179-108.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:13:52 benkard [~benkard@dhcp-138-246-84-110.dynamic.eduroam.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 14:13:54 -!- przl_ [~przlrkt@p54BD0BDB.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:14:53 sdemarre [~serge@109.134.134.139] has joined #lisp 14:15:03 -!- bitonic`` [~user@77-56-49-28.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:15:08 Karl_dscc [~localhost@ipdsw03.informatik.fh-schmalkalden.de] has joined #lisp 14:18:09 jsn [~user@c-50-156-35-98.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:18:45 -!- Corvidium [~cosman246@c-24-143-118-11.customer.broadstripe.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 14:22:26 NickLevine [~chatzilla@ravenbrook.nsdsl.net] has joined #lisp 14:24:08 drmeiste_ [~drmeister@166.137.104.170] has joined #lisp 14:24:42 -!- stardiviner [~quassel@122.236.240.72] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:25:40 josemanuel [~josemanue@124.197.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 14:26:33 stardiviner [~quassel@122.236.240.72] has joined #lisp 14:28:16 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@wsip-98-175-98-176.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:31:13 -!- benkard [~benkard@dhcp-138-246-84-110.dynamic.eduroam.mwn.de] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz] 14:31:38 -!- `fogus [~fogus@freedom.d-a-s.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:34:46 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:43:53 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@99.179.96.98] has quit [Quit: normanrichards] 14:45:01 harish [~harish@cm32.zeta224.maxonline.com.sg] has joined #lisp 14:45:38 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 14:49:59 francogrex [franco@162-202-67-158.lightspeed.livnmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:51:02 this is a tough question: in emacs M-x erase-buffer does what it does. How can we invokde that from an inferior lisp cl using for example (run-program ...) ? 14:52:27 not tough at all 14:53:00 use swank:eval-in-emacs 14:56:22 and without swank? aha, now it's becoming tough 14:56:52 ok but i was kidding. thanks 14:57:18 pnpuff [~ln@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 14:59:30 -!- xificurC [xificurC@nat/ibm/x-syhlfvharxfjhuzh] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:59:49 carlo5m [~carlo5m@c-71-198-252-62.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:01:15 -!- pnpuff [~ln@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has left #lisp 15:04:10 -!- TDT [~user@173-17-121-48.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:04:33 -!- hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@109.120.56.204] has quit [Quit: hitecnologys] 15:06:34 billstclair [~billstcla@p-68-237-142-18.dsl1.rtr.chat.fpma.frpt.net] has joined #lisp 15:06:34 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@p-68-237-142-18.dsl1.rtr.chat.fpma.frpt.net] has quit [Changing host] 15:06:34 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has 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[Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:28:45 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 16:29:34 -!- pr [~pr@unaffiliated/pr] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:30:55 joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@086.112-30-64.ftth.swbr.surewest.net] has joined #lisp 16:33:59 normanrichards [~normanric@rrcs-108-178-120-144.sw.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:35:42 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@rrcs-108-178-120-144.sw.biz.rr.com] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 16:38:25 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@93.113.190.121] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:39:16 boogie [~boogie@wsip-98-172-168-236.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 16:39:37 -!- bitonic`` is now known as bitonic 16:41:17 -!- nialo- [~yaaic@66-87-117-105.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:42:07 -!- Karl_dscc [~localhost@ipdsw03.informatik.fh-schmalkalden.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:44:33 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:44:38 -!- Joreji [~thomas@152-013.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:45:09 nialo- [~yaaic@66-87-117-105.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 16:47:12 Joreji [~thomas@134.61.152.13] has joined #lisp 16:52:16 -!- teggi_ [~teggi@123.25.130.142] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:54:18 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:05:44 jangle [~jimmy1984@198.151.8.4] has joined #lisp 17:08:01 agumonkey [~agu@179.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 17:11:20 -!- doomlord [~doomlod@host86-180-26-144.range86-180.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:12:52 is there a way to read from a stream such that the entire contents of the stream get arbitratily read ,as opposed to using (read-sequence ) which blocks if the amount of data read in doesn't completely fill the stream 17:13:01 ^stream^sequence 17:13:05 irq0 [~irq0@amy.irq0.org] has joined #lisp 17:15:09 jangle: not a standard way. some implementations add extra keywords to read-sequence, some offer alternative APIs (e.g. read-vector in allegro) 17:16:31 hwiersma [~hwiersma@S0106602ad08e475a.ok.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 17:16:31 the example given in the clhs makes it look like read sequence returns after all data has been read in 17:17:05 jangle: that's usually what it does. 17:17:09 but when I try to use read sequence on a socket stream, it waits, in spite of my usage of finish output 17:18:04 -!- bitonic [~user@94-201.77-83.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 17:18:33 jangle: If you want to read what's available, rather than a buffer's worth, you have to reach into implementation-specific land. or use a library. 17:18:50 I'm finding that when I reduce the size of the sequence I pass to read-sequence, then I get data back immediately. but if the input sequence has more space 17:19:06 hmm ok. 17:21:17 I had a list of how to do it in every implementation at one point. 17:21:22 unless you're reading from a character stream, then you could use LISTEN 17:22:28 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 17:22:47 ah, actually I didn't have quite the same thing. 17:23:45 -!- statl [~statl@dslb-094-218-226-086.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 17:23:56 Ralt [~Ralt@89-92-204-200.hfc.dyn.abo.bbox.fr] has joined #lisp 17:24:31 I am reading (unsigned-byte 8) 17:24:36 fridim__ [~fridim@bas2-montreal07-2925317871.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 17:24:54 I know that I've received all the data as I watch in wireshark 17:25:23 Kruppe [~user@j2petkovich.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 17:25:42 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@85-76-123-249-nat.elisa-mobile.fi] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:27:39 -!- nyef [~nyef@c-50-157-244-41.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Offline for a bit.] 17:29:05 You're using clozure cl? 17:29:09 yes 17:29:24 I've posted the question to their channel to see 17:29:34 I would bet there's an option or extension to do what you want, but I don't know it well enough to say. 17:29:54 jangle: The mailing list can be very helpful for non-realtime feedback. 17:30:04 And if you get it at the right time it can actually be realtime, almost. 17:30:23 ok I'll try it 17:31:03 daimrod [daimrod@sbrk.org] has joined #lisp 17:31:34 jangle: It will help to clearly describe what you want to do, which is to read whatever data is available from a still-open socket. 17:31:51 jangle: What do you want to happen if no data is available? Block, or return nothing immediately? 17:31:54 -!- isomorphismes [~ubuntu@ec2-54-243-213-161.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has left #lisp 17:32:28 Xach: blocking is fine for this tool, I don't mind waiting for the data to arrive 17:33:04 jangle: It can be helpful to mention that desire, too. 17:33:19 ok 17:33:24 tyvm 17:33:43 An early version of the quicklisp networking stuff had this, I think. I had some idea about writing a tiny webserver as part of the client, IIRC. 17:34:20 doomlord [~doomlod@host86-180-26-144.range86-180.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 17:34:23 doomlord_ [~doomlod@host86-180-26-144.range86-180.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 17:34:58 bitonic [~user@2a02:1205:34dc:95e0:8e70:5aff:fe81:dd50] has joined #lisp 17:35:34 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-161-17.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:35:35 ffilozov [~user@84.77.187.252] has joined #lisp 17:35:35 AeroNotix [~xeno@aboc90.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 17:39:58 bitonic` [~user@94-201.77-83.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 17:40:40 -!- Codynyx [~cody@c-75-72-187-16.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:40:57 ndrei [~avo@mtl93-2-82-66-118-59.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 17:41:28 -!- bitonic [~user@2a02:1205:34dc:95e0:8e70:5aff:fe81:dd50] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:42:48 -!- knob [~knob@76.76.202.244] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:43:08 -!- bitonic` [~user@94-201.77-83.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:43:16 -!- Bike [~Glossina@174-25-43-108.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:43:44 -!- aeth [~Michael@wesnoth/umc-dev/developer/aethaeryn] has quit [Quit: reboot] 17:44:15 bitonic` [~user@94-201.77-83.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 17:44:20 Bike [~Glossina@174-25-43-108.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 17:44:34 -!- Corvidium [~cosman246@D-69-91-139-52.dhcp4.washington.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:46:13 MrRacoon [suthere@reaver.cat.pdx.edu] has joined #lisp 17:46:35 Codynyx [~cody@c-75-72-187-16.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:48:01 Aethaeryn [~Michael@wesnoth/umc-dev/developer/aethaeryn] has joined #lisp 17:48:34 pr [~pr@unaffiliated/pr] has joined #lisp 17:50:32 I've placed a project in local-projects, and when I load the system I get an error such as "Component :ALEXANDRIA not found". According to the FAQ, dependencies of local projects will also be resolved. What am I doing wrong? 17:51:53 -!- yano [yano@freenode/staff/yano] has quit [Quit: WeeChat, The Better IRC Client: http://weechat.org/] 17:52:02 -!- petrounias [~petrounia@ppp-2-85-63-12.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:52:05 -!- bitonic` [~user@94-201.77-83.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:52:40 -!- seangrove [~user@69.181.197.122] has quit [Ping timeout: 254 seconds] 17:52:58 ffilozov: How do you express the dependency on alexandria? 17:53:48 kiuma [~kiuma@2-230-138-74.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 17:54:01 (asdf:defsystem cffi-grovel ... :depends-on (cffi alexandria) ... 17:54:16 -!- developernotes [~developer@173-18-189-145.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Quit: developernotes] 17:54:19 Odd. That should just work fine. 17:54:52 Is that just the regular cffi-grovel.asd? 17:54:55 If I install those components individually, I can than load the project. 17:55:18 That shouldn't be necessary, though. 17:55:51 The project is a fork. 17:55:58 Corvidium [~cosman246@173.250.202.163] has joined #lisp 17:56:20 I'll check if the system definitions are different. 17:56:33 -!- Aethaeryn [~Michael@wesnoth/umc-dev/developer/aethaeryn] has quit [Quit: reboot] 17:57:01 *Xach* scratches chin, head 17:57:25 ffilozov: Hang on, how are you trying to load it? 17:57:31 What function did you call? 17:58:17 (ql:quickload "zmq"), which then depends on cffi, which is located in my local-projects. 17:58:47 Ok, that definitely should have worked. It has a handler to catch missing component errors and try to load them via quicklisp. 17:58:54 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-168-227.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 17:59:53 Both zmq and cffi are in local-projects, by the way. 17:59:56 I'd love to look into it - any chance you could email quicklisp@googlegroups.com with details of how to reproduce? 18:00:05 -!- Ralt [~Ralt@89-92-204-200.hfc.dyn.abo.bbox.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 18:00:06 *Xach* can't fully troubleshoot at the moment 18:00:46 blackwolf [~blackwolf@ool-4574e84c.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 18:01:32 Ok. I'll poke around, and if nothing works I'll post to the group. 18:02:38 -!- jaimef [jaimef@dns.mauthesis.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 18:02:41 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-4d002e2e.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 18:03:45 przl [~przlrkt@p4FE64CF8.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 18:04:15 fe[nl]ix: that would be MarqueAuDessus ;-) 18:05:56 jaimef [jaimef@dns.mauthesis.com] has joined #lisp 18:06:38 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:07:11 pkkm_ [~pawel@adhj132.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 18:07:20 -!- pkkm [~pawel@ajs32.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Disconnected by services] 18:08:48 -!- s00pcan [~chris@108-208-64-149.lightspeed.livnmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:09:10 -!- pkkm_ is now known as pkkm 18:09:11 s00pcan [~chris@108-208-64-149.lightspeed.livnmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:09:41 yano [yano@freenode/staff/yano] has joined #lisp 18:10:20 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 18:13:17 nug700 [~nug700@209-181-103-240.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 18:19:42 drmeister [~drmeister@166.137.104.170] has joined #lisp 18:21:19 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-168-227.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:22:52 eldariof [~CLD@pppoe-196-60-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has joined #lisp 18:24:24 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@166.137.104.170] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:24:50 pnpuff [~ln@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 18:24:57 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-131-74.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:25:05 -!- pnpuff [~ln@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has left #lisp 18:27:16 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-179-238.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 18:28:51 statl [~statl@dslb-094-218-226-086.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 18:31:04 -!- setmeaway2 [stemearay@119.201.52.138] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:31:23 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-179-238.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:32:15 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:32:26 Aethaeryn [~Michael@wesnoth/umc-dev/developer/aethaeryn] has joined #lisp 18:35:33 -!- Aramur [~Aramur@102.Red-79-154-74.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Aramur] 18:37:21 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:38:30 developernotes [~developer@173-18-189-145.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 18:38:52 pnpuff [~ln@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 18:39:34 -!- pnpuff [~ln@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has left #lisp 18:40:24 slyrus [~chatzilla@173-228-44-92.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 18:42:46 foreignFunction [~niksaak@ip-4761.sunline.net.ua] has joined #lisp 18:45:01 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:46:01 -!- ffilozov [~user@84.77.187.252] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:46:46 Is there a way to go from a class + an effective-slot-definition to a direct-slot-definition? 18:46:49 Do I have to go through the slot-definition-name and recurse through subclasses myself? 18:47:07 krishnak [~krishnak@204.28.120.61] has joined #lisp 18:48:39 ejohnson [~Thunderbi@c-67-181-201-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:52:41 -!- jsn [~user@c-50-156-35-98.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:56:09 -!- Aethaeryn [~Michael@wesnoth/umc-dev/developer/aethaeryn] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:58:14 -!- _d3f [~gnu@94.242.252.66] has quit [Quit: This is a blue .. or red quit message.] 19:00:06 Aethaeryn [~Michael@wesnoth/umc-dev/developer/aethaeryn] has joined #lisp 19:00:23 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-167-46.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 19:00:39 -!- Joreji [~thomas@134.61.152.13] has quit [Ping timeout: 271 seconds] 19:00:46 Joreji_ [~thomas@152-013.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 19:02:48 -!- developernotes 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[~Oddity@154.20.70.67] has joined #lisp 20:12:08 -!- Oddity [~Oddity@154.20.70.67] has quit [Changing host] 20:12:08 Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has joined #lisp 20:12:10 how can I check if a C library exists? cffi:define-foreign-library doesn't throw any kind of error when used with an inexisting library 20:12:50 slyrus [~chatzilla@173-228-44-92.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 20:14:58 pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has joined #lisp 20:15:53 oh, it's use-foreign-library that throws an error 20:15:56 -!- zajn [~zajn@c-50-161-171-227.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: zajn] 20:16:09 -!- pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has quit [Client Quit] 20:19:17 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@166.137.104.170] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:23:26 bitonic [~user@94-201.77-83.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 20:25:00 -!- statl [~statl@dslb-094-218-226-086.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 20:25:57 s0ber_ [~s0ber@114-36-248-190.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 20:26:30 -!- patrickwonders [~patrickwo@67-220-27-111.usiwireless.com] has quit [Quit: patrickwonders] 20:27:27 -!- ehu [~ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:27:36 nilsi [~nilsi@37.250.37.135.bredband.tre.se] has joined #lisp 20:28:23 -!- s0ber [~s0ber@114-25-203-141.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:28:33 -!- s0ber_ is now known as s0ber 20:33:45 -!- Joreji [~thomas@152-013.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:37:36 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-590c34b5.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:39:39 prxq [~mommer@mnhm-590c34b5.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 20:40:54 -!- sirdancealo2 [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:41:44 sirdancealo2 [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 20:45:05 pierre1 [~pierre1@179.218.154.208] has joined #lisp 20:45:16 Aramur [~Aramur@102.Red-79-154-74.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 20:45:16 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p4FE64CF8.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:45:46 patrickwonders [~patrickwo@user-38q42ns.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 20:46:07 -!- foreignFunction [~niksaak@ip-4761.sunline.net.ua] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:46:11 Joreji [~thomas@152-013.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 20:46:25 dcguru [~chatzilla@66.129.60.130] has joined #lisp 20:47:37 anyone knows why cffi doesn't find libc? http://pastebin.com/QDy83B7E 20:47:58 -!- AeroNotix [~xeno@aboc90.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:47:59 it's right there 20:48:00 $ find /usr/lib/ -name 'libc.so' 20:48:00 /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libc.so 20:48:10 pyx [~pyx@unaffiliated/pyx] has joined #lisp 20:48:40 -!- pyx [~pyx@unaffiliated/pyx] has quit [Client Quit] 20:48:52 Ralt: is your lisp implementation 32-bit, by any chance? 20:48:56 maybe it's not related but why is libinotify there 20:49:20 fortitude: dunno, checking 20:49:32 Bike: because it's the one I want to get 20:49:47 but it's in libc since a few versions... so I check there anyway 20:50:15 youlysses [~user@75-132-28-10.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 20:50:56 I don't even know how to find out if sbcl is 32-bit 20:51:15 google turns up interesting results, but not the one I want. 20:51:24 -!- sirdancealo2 [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:51:48 Ralt file `which sbcl` will do it 20:52:07 oh, nice. 20:52:22 and it's x86-64 20:52:51 are you sure that the libc is in the required PATH variables? (I don't know what CFFI checks, but that'd be one of my guesses) 20:53:27 looks like /usr/lib/x86_64 isn't in PATH 20:53:44 Ralt: you don't need to load libc, it's already there 20:54:08 fe[nl]ix: then how can I use its functions? 20:54:16 I mean, how can I use cffi with it 20:54:17 -!- adnap_ is now known as adnap 20:54:48 is the lib in the `libc` symbol? 20:55:30 oooh 20:55:31 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 20:55:37 "libc.so.6" did the trick. 20:56:10 Ralt: just use defcfun 20:56:31 You don't need to load libraries which are already linked in. You shouldn't, even. 20:57:05 -!- jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@bl18-71-14.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:57:29 seangrove [~user@208.80.69.42] has joined #lisp 20:59:40 jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@bl18-71-14.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 21:00:00 -!- Ralt [~Ralt@89-92-204-200.hfc.dyn.abo.bbox.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:01:38 AeroNotix [~xeno@abnz215.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 21:02:28 dgjj3 [~23423@111.30.77.188.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 21:02:40 -!- dgjj3 [~23423@111.30.77.188.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Client Quit] 21:03:52 the problem might be ECL 21:04:00 but I wouldn't worry about that 21:04:31 -!- Shinmera [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:04:36 -!- sdemarre [~serge@109.134.134.139] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:07:59 chu [~user@unaffiliated/chu] has joined #lisp 21:12:08 sirdancealo2 [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 21:17:30 -!- nialo- [~yaaic@66-87-117-105.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:19:29 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:21:06 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 21:24:42 -!- c-luser [5271c461@gateway/web/freenode/ip.82.113.196.97] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 21:27:06 -!- Kruppe [~user@j2petkovich.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:30:15 -!- jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@bl18-71-14.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:31:04 -!- Aethaeryn [~Michael@wesnoth/umc-dev/developer/aethaeryn] has quit [Quit: reboot] 21:34:27 benkard [~benkard@host-188-174-195-92.customer.m-online.net] has joined #lisp 21:34:36 -!- benkard [~benkard@host-188-174-195-92.customer.m-online.net] has quit [Client Quit] 21:35:40 Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 21:39:07 Aethaeryn [~Michael@wesnoth/umc-dev/developer/aethaeryn] has joined #lisp 21:40:00 nialo [nialo@ool-44c53f01.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 21:41:00 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 21:42:14 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@93.113.190.121] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:42:16 -!- dfox [~dfox@94.142.237.120] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 21:42:57 -!- pierre1 [~pierre1@179.218.154.208] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:43:11 mcsontos_ [~mcsontos@77.240.184.15] has joined #lisp 21:47:01 namtsui` [~user@c-76-102-34-148.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:48:09 -!- namtsui` [~user@c-76-102-34-148.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:48:45 -!- fortitude [~mts@rrcs-24-97-165-124.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:49:00 peterhil [~peterhil@85-76-123-249-nat.elisa-mobile.fi] has joined #lisp 21:49:47 -!- namtsui [~user@c-76-102-34-148.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:50:29 namtsui [~user@c-76-102-34-148.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:51:18 -!- pkkm [~pawel@adhj132.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:53:24 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-131-74.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 21:57:25 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 21:58:41 -!- namtsui [~user@c-76-102-34-148.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:03:10 -!- hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@109.120.56.204] has quit [Quit: hitecnologys] 22:04:41 Juanito-Jons [~jreynoso@201.165.168.205] has joined #lisp 22:04:50 namtsui [~user@c-76-102-34-148.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:07:29 -!- victor_lowther [~victorlow@143.166.116.80] has quit [Quit: Leaving IRC - 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