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00:06:56 <c107> Hi, everyone.
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00:07:14 <c107> (display "Hi, everyone\n\a")
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00:08:15 <Bike> is that scheme?
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00:09:36 <c107> Bike: Yeah.
00:10:12 <Bike> this channel is for common lisp, maybe you want #scheme.
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00:11:32 <c107> Bike: I'm a beginner with lisp. Which one is most compatible with Emacs?
00:11:41 <Bike> Meaning what?
00:11:49 <Bike> CL has a good emacs environment, slime.
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00:12:32 <c107> Bike: All right. Is it as good as C-j for an Emacs Lisp statement?
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00:13:24 <Bike> it does a lot more than that, yes.
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00:13:54 <c107> Bike: Is Emacs Lisp closer to Common Lisp?
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00:14:38 <c107> M-x slime [no match] :(
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00:14:49 <aspect> you can use slime with scheme as well, fwiw (at least mit)
00:14:51 <Bike> well yeah, you gotta have the files.
00:15:01 <Bike> Um, maybe. Both Scheme and CL use lexical scope, and there are lots of other differences, so I'm not sure elisp similarity should be a criterion.
00:15:59 <c107> Gr... Lisp is like Arabic and Chinese: you call it one language, and when you try to learn it, you find out that there are several mutually unintelligible dialects.
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00:16:37 <Bike> and like arabic and chinese, it's not actually one language but is called as such for historical and social reasons, yes.
00:16:44 <ski> Lisp is more like a family of related languages
00:17:40 <aspect> .. and once you've got your head around at least one lisp, you start to realise there are more lisps than you realised, some of which don't even use parens
00:17:46 <c107> This sucks. What makes it worse is that GNU has no preferred Lisp.
00:18:07 <aspect> what would gnu's endorsement buy you?
00:18:11 <c107> They have Scheme with Guile and Elisp with Emacs.
00:18:12 <aspect> (there is guile)
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00:18:28 <c107> aspect: IDK, some momentum of sorts?
00:19:00 <aspect> like ummm hurd? ;-)
00:19:09 <Bike> well, just pick up SICP or PCL or something and play around.
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00:21:48 <Xach> GNU endorsement doesn't mean much.
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00:22:08 <Xach> guile stagnated for years until an enthusiastic guy picked it up recently to play with it and improve it.
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00:23:37 <Xach> and two distinct, not-that-great common lisps call themselves "gnu"
00:23:48 <|3b|> c107: gnu even has 2 CLs to choose from (not: don't choose gcl)
00:24:00 <|3b|> *note:
00:24:07 <c107> Ew.
00:24:20 <aspect> meanwhile they farted in the general direction of tcl, which I find quite an acceptable lisp
00:24:26 *|3b|* usually doesn't choose gnu clisp either, but some people like it
00:24:40 <Xach> clisp is definitely less worse than gcl for general use
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00:25:00 <nightfly> Really?
00:25:07 *Xach* uses SBCL on Linux & OS X and is happy with it
00:25:12 *nightfly* likes clips integrated tab completion
00:25:13 <c107> Okay, I'm gonna go with Elisp and Guile.
00:25:28 *|3b|* uses slime for tab completion
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00:25:47 <c107> Thanks, guys. Oh, before I go: where can I get slime?
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00:26:10 <ski> #scheme and #guile might be useful
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00:26:16 <nightfly> When doing actual lisp programming I use slime. clisp is a very fast way to get a quick friendly repl though.
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00:26:31 <|3b|> if you are using CL, quicklisp is an easy way to get slime
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00:28:12 <j_king> ccl is pretty nice on osx
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00:28:32 <j_king> the native cocoa bridge extensions works really well
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00:30:33 <Xach> I am looking forward to getting into that.
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00:35:04 <Xach> rme's presentation at eclm was a good incentive
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02:51:08 <JasonFelice> Is there already a function which will recursively replace a value in a list of lists (of lists)?
02:51:31 <Bike> subst
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02:56:58 <JasonFelice> OK, now here's where I get complicated...
02:57:00 <JasonFelice> Can I quote a comma?
02:57:52 <JasonFelice> I'm two turtles deep in quasiquote.
02:58:16 <Bike> you can do e.g. `(quote ,foo)
02:58:33 <Zhivago> `',x might be what you're after.
02:58:34 <Bike> which you can write as `',foo of course.
02:59:21 <JasonFelice> Hrmm.  That's different from Scheme, IIRC.  But I already knew it was different, then.
02:59:42 <Bike> i'm pretty sure you can do that in scheme...
03:00:03 <JasonFelice> Oh, that doesn't quote the comma. :(
03:00:17 <Bike> what exactly do you mean by "quoting the comma"
03:01:55 <JasonFelice> `(cons ,infix-op #'(lambda (left right) `,@(subst ...)))
03:01:57 <JasonFelice> BUT
03:02:10 <JasonFelice> ,@ I want to expand with the outer `
03:02:31 <JasonFelice> And I want the expression to produce the commas for the inner `
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03:06:16 <Bike> so, for example, you'll have a tree, say (foo (bar (foo)) bar), and you want the inner backquote to look like say `(,expr (bar (,expr)) ,expr) in total?
03:06:54 <JasonFelice> Exactly so.
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03:08:00 <Bike> well, except that last thing should have stayed a bar, whatever.
03:08:41 <Bike> i am not sure how to do that.
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03:09:53 <JasonFelice> For context:
03:09:54 <JasonFelice> (defmacro binary (infix-op &key is)
03:09:54 <JasonFelice>   (let ((pattern (cond
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03:10:05 <Bike>  paste.lisp.org
03:10:09 <JasonFelice> Wow.
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03:10:21 <JasonFelice> The gist link was supposed to be in the paste buffer.
03:10:46 <JasonFelice> https://gist.github.com/eraserhd/5981119
03:12:39 <Bike> This doesn't really help, you left out the important part...
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03:14:48 <JasonFelice> Not sure which.  I can reset and show the whole working prior version.  Maybe there's a better approach?
03:15:32 <Bike> sure.
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03:17:22 <JasonFelice> Gist is updated with prior working version (below the half-refactored version).
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03:21:03 <JasonFelice> Ah, doing too much at once, is part of the problem...
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03:22:24 <Bike> Geez, this seems complicated... if I was doing this, I'd probably just search for the highest precedence, split into a binary tree, and expand into `(,op ,(recurse left) ,(recurse right))
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03:28:18 <JasonFelice> Hrmm :)
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03:35:58 <Bike> (defun splitfix (exprs precs) (if (null (cdr exprs)) (first exprs) (let ((pos (loop2 exprs prec))) `(,(nth pos exprs) ,(splitfix (subseq exprs 0 pos) precs) ,(splitfix (subseq exprs (1+ pos)) precs)))), where loop2 just finds the position of the element maximizing the precedence number in the alist precs (something like ((+ . 1) (* . 2)), whatever)
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03:45:35 <JasonFelice> Bike: Hrmm.
03:47:10 <JasonFelice> Unary - and binary - have different precendence :)
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03:47:43 <JasonFelice> And some operators have different left or right associativity.
03:48:13 <JasonFelice> (Though I haven't touched any of these yet.)
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03:48:41 <p_nathan> nitro_idiot_: hullo, do you make caveman?
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03:53:05 <JasonFelice> Hehe.  I get to use || for or, though.  Evil. :)
03:54:44 <Bike> JasonFelice: if i could write a two line two minute solution and have it actually work i'd be getting paid a lot more, i feel
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03:58:31 <JasonFelice> There are plenty of complicated solutions that I can write in two minutes.  I'm waiting for the day my employer needs one.
03:59:09 <Zhivago> The problem generally isn't in the solution, but in the problem.
03:59:20 <JasonFelice> I'm still waiting for the day this happens at work, but with min-cost max-flow: https://xkcd.com/208/
03:59:32 <Zhivago> Getting the problem right tends to take a lot of effort.
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06:10:02 <zorkmoid> ;good morning
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06:43:10 <zorkmoid> mm... i am going offline for a few weeks, anyway to download the quicklisp repo somehow?
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06:47:30 <pnpuff> I'm sorry for the OT. I need to translate a Francis Sergeraert's talk from french to english. How can I do? any suggestion? thx a lot.
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06:52:32 <zorkmoid> pnpuff: hire a translator? google translate?
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07:43:46 <Teratogen> is tcl really a dialect of lisp?
07:43:55 <pavelpenev> Teratogen: no
07:44:13 <Teratogen> ok
07:44:21 <Teratogen> someone said that earlier on this channel and I was like wtf
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07:47:52 <pavelpenev> Teratogen: if it doesn't have the parens, it's probably not a dialect
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07:48:48 <zorkmoid> it all depends on how you define lisp.
07:49:25 <Zhivago> Parentheses are irrelevant to lisp.
07:49:32 <Zhivago> Take a look at the original syntax. :)
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07:52:20 <sykopomp`> everything and nothing is a dialect of lisp
07:52:35 -!- sykopomp` is now known as sykopomp
07:53:29 <sykopomp> also there are mac people here, so while slightly offtopic, I wonder what SLIME devs here recommend for people stuck with OSX. The emacs wiki recommends Emacs.app, has that worked fine with slime and company and general feel?
07:53:41 -!- albatross96 [~albatross@106.198.123.239] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
07:53:51 <zorkmoid> sykopomp: works for me
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08:04:44 <xificurC> why is it that (defun foo ((a b c) d) (list a b c d)) throws an error but the same with defmacro works? isn't destructuring supported in defun?
08:05:46 <sykopomp> no
08:05:55 <sykopomp> only defmacro supports destructuring lambda lists.
08:07:43 <xificurC> thanks
08:08:22 <pnpuff> (a b c) I suppose because of the first component of the list is not a functional object.. so yes, is not a lambda list.
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08:09:15 <jdz> pnpuff: if you don't have anything of value to say, than don't say it.
08:09:51 <jdz> we have a specification, we don't have to suppose anything
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08:14:39 <pnpuff> jdz: You're right, maybe I give unneeded value to stupid things. Ayway If you've specific/practical and not "too general" suggestions to correct my errors thanks: I will listen... I will lear more.
08:14:50 <pnpuff> s/lear/learn/
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08:23:48 <pnpuff> xificurC: try first (describe (defun foo ((a b c) d) (list a b c d))) and later (defmacro ...)
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08:24:21 <jdz> pnpuff: you're at it, again.
08:24:22 <pnpuff> xificurC: sorry ... (define (defmacro foo ...))
08:24:52 <pnpuff> jdz: are you kidding me?
08:25:20 <jdz> pnpuff: no, you're talking nonsense. you should stop.
08:25:23 <pnpuff> s/me//
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08:25:54 <pnpuff> jdz: ok, can you explain me kindly why I'm talking nonsense?
08:26:39 <pnpuff> what are you meaning: describe is not useful for such comparison?
08:26:47 <jdz> describe what?
08:27:05 <jdz> did you even try your suggestion yourself?
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08:27:19 <pnpuff> ... (describe (defmacro foo ((a b c) d) (list a b c d)))
08:27:37 <pnpuff> jdz: you have to be clear. why is a nonsense?
08:28:39 <jdz> pnpuff: what's the purpose of your suggestion? how does youlr suggestion achieve that purpose?
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08:32:14 <pnpuff> jdz: I was trying to suggest (and maybe even explain to myself) why (DISASSEMBLE (MACRO-FUNCTION 'FOO)) works.
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08:33:06 <jdz> pnpuff: nobody ever asked anything even remotely similar to that
08:33:42 <jdz> pnpuff: and your suggestions would not help explain this new problem any bit
08:35:01 <pnpuff> jdz: can you kindly explain me better the problem, if you want? ... I'll learn a bit more.
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08:36:41 <jdz> pnpuff: what problem? you have not asked anything, only suggested nonsense.  and DISSASSEMBLE works on functions, and since MACRO-FUNCTION returns a function, of course it works.  so what problem are you imagining?
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08:39:15 <pnpuff> jdz: ok, why (function foo ((a b c) d) (list a b c d)) does not work?
08:39:56 <pnpuff> I haven't understood the answer...
08:40:01 <jdz> pnpuff: becase ((a b c) d) is not an ordinary lambda list
08:40:20 <pnpuff> a lambda list is a special object?
08:40:29 <jdz> no, it is just a list
08:41:01 <jdz> clhs 3.4.1
08:41:01 <specbot> Ordinary Lambda Lists: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_da.htm
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08:41:42 <pnpuff> so is a list of functions?
08:41:53 <pnpuff> lambda is a function.. I think.
08:42:08 <jdz> you should think less, and read the spec more.
08:42:10 <jdz> clhs lambda
08:42:11 <specbot> http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_lambda.htm
08:42:19 <pnpuff> :)
08:42:30 <jdz> and it's not even remotely funny.
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08:42:43 <Zhivago> Literacy is not optional for programmers.
08:42:46 <pnpuff> Instead I will think more and memorize less.
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08:43:28 <jdz> pnpuff: you do whatever you want, but don't come here confusing people with your nonsense. thank you.
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08:45:16 <pnpuff> jdz: and what are you able to say to correct my errors? ... only "read the spec"? :(
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08:46:07 <jdz> pnpuff: yes, before suggesting stuff to people, you should have at least a slightest clue what you're talking about. you don't. so, go read the spec.
08:46:12 <Zhivago> (a) Do basic research, (b) ask sensible questions, (c) verify your suggestions before making them.
08:46:33 <pnpuff> Zhivago: ok, but now I need help to understand better...
08:46:47 <Zhivago> Sure, so (a), (b), and (c).
08:46:47 <pnpuff> so the answer "read the spec" is not optimal...
08:46:55 <pnpuff> ;)
08:47:19 <Zhivago> Did you do (a) yet? If not, shut up. If you did, then proceed to (b).
08:48:39 <pnpuff> ...ok
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09:14:17 <Blkt> lol, I never knew about &aux variables
09:15:21 <pnpuff> (lambda () (&aux "help"))
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09:16:14 <NickLevine> No
09:16:53 <NickLevine> clhs &aux
09:16:54 <specbot> http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_da.htm
09:16:54 <Blkt> that would invoke &aux on "help" (failing)
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09:17:32 <NickLevine> clhs 3.4.1.5
09:17:33 <specbot> Specifiers for &aux variables: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_dae.htm
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09:19:10 <zorkmoid> Blkt: they are really nice.
09:19:28 <Blkt> zorkmoid: how did you use them?
09:19:51 <zorkmoid> Blkt: i use them so i don't have to have an implicit let* ... that is the point of them :-)
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09:21:05 <stassats`> Blkt: they are really not nice
09:21:10 <zorkmoid> vertical space is cheap, horizontal isn't ... reducing the indentation level is always a good thing to strive for.
09:21:15 <NickLevine> I only use them in defstructs...
09:21:17 <NickLevine> (defstruct (face (:constructor make-face (alias &aux (color (color:get-color-spec alias))))) alias color)
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09:21:38 <NickLevine> Don't recommend them as a general substitute for let
09:21:46 <Blkt> I see
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09:21:56 <zorkmoid> different schools of cl .. old and new.
09:21:57 <zorkmoid> :-)
09:22:30 <Blkt> which one is old?
09:22:45 <Blkt> or new
09:22:48 <stassats`> whichever zorkmoid likes less
09:22:54 <zorkmoid> using &aux is considered "old"
09:23:48 <zorkmoid> never will understand why people escew &aux ... oh well..
09:24:01 <stassats`> because it's not needed
09:24:12 <stassats`> less constructs that do the same thing, the better
09:24:20 <Zhivago> Well, nothing's really needed there apart from &rest.
09:24:24 <stassats`> less confusion, more readability, more consistency
09:24:26 <zorkmoid> stassats`: lambda for the win as they say ...
09:24:45 <zorkmoid> there is little to confuse about &aux
09:24:45 <stassats`> zorkmoid: you don't also have to go to the extremes
09:25:34 <stassats`> Blkt didn't know about it until today
09:26:24 <zorkmoid> stassats`: which proves absolutley nothing.
09:26:26 <Blkt> that does not make such a difference on the matter
09:26:32 <Blkt> I'm not an expert
09:26:42 <Zhivago> I think the &aux saves a let in lambdas.
09:27:08 <stassats`> there's nothing to "prove", it just shows that &aux is rarely found in code
09:27:20 <Zhivago> Back in the old days that was probably important to someone, or maybe they hadn't invented proper closures yet.
09:27:31 <stassats`> if you are after idiomatic code which you want to share, avoid using &aux
09:27:44 <Blkt> &aux seems a primitive destructuring bind
09:27:48 <stassats`> if you're not, then you can go bonkers however you like
09:27:51 <Blkt> to me at least
09:28:01 <stassats`> Blkt: no, it has nothing to do with destructuring bind
09:28:23 <zorkmoid> Blkt: &aux is just a let* ...
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09:28:33 <zorkmoid> Blkt: see http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/03_dae.htm
09:28:48 <zorkmoid> is super duper useful for lambdas
09:28:55 <Blkt> I read that page
09:29:04 <stassats`> and since it's just a let*, just use let*
09:29:22 <zorkmoid> stassats`: since let* is just a recursive let ... just use let
09:30:13 <stassats`> zorkmoid: will you continue to twist things to the extremes?
09:30:29 <zorkmoid> stassats`: i can say the exact same thing about the discouragement of using &aux
09:30:41 <zorkmoid> it is a useful construct, use it when it makes sense.
09:31:01 <stassats`> which is never, except for BOA constructors in defstruct
09:31:18 <zorkmoid> or in lambdas being passed and you need an extra variable.
09:31:23 <zorkmoid> or in defuns when it makes code pretty
09:32:05 <stassats`> hard to argue against subjective "pretty"
09:32:53 <zorkmoid> stassats`: true, i don't think that using it in defstruct is pretty :-O)
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09:33:06 <stassats`> it is never pretty, but oh well
09:34:02 <Blkt> still, I don't get why it can't be considered "a primitive destructuring bind"
09:34:13 <stassats`> Blkt: because it has absolutely zero in common
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09:34:28 <zorkmoid> Blkt: it isn't destructing anything ..
09:35:23 <Blkt> that's true...
09:36:48 <Blkt> the example (lambda (x y &aux (a (car x)) ...) led me to think of it as destructuring
09:37:09 <Blkt> but they have something in common anyway
09:37:15 <stassats`> they don't
09:37:20 <Blkt> stassats`: explain
09:37:33 <stassats`> no, you explain what they have in common
09:37:48 <Blkt> they both bind variables
09:37:49 <stassats`> i don't have to, since they don't have anything
09:38:07 <pnpuff> wow , that is a pretty answer!
09:38:13 <stassats`> they also have parenthesis, so what?
09:38:39 <stassats`> there's a hundred and one construct in CL which binds variables
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09:41:03 <Blkt> by spec, "destructuring-bind binds the variables specified in lambda-list to the corresponding values in the tree structure resulting from the evaluation of expression; then destructuring-bind evaluates forms."
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09:41:40 <Blkt> for &aux, "After all parameter specifiers have been processed, the auxiliary variable specifiers (those following &aux) are processed from left to right. For each one, init-form is evaluated and var is bound to that value..."
09:41:42 <stassats`> which is nothing like what let* does
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09:42:23 <stassats`> but screw it, if you want to think they are common, please do
09:42:37 <Blkt> I guess I will, since arguing with you is pointless
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09:44:06 <stassats`> it is indeed pointless when you'll just keep saying a wrong thing
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09:45:08 <Blkt> forget about it, I'll ask someone else
09:45:29 <stassats`> ask what? i didn't see a question
09:45:48 <stassats`> maybe you just don't know what destructuring-bind is?
09:47:10 <Blkt> probably yes
09:47:12 <pnpuff> I dont't know.. now I'm reading the "destructuring lambda list" chapter of "A gentle introduction to symbolic computation"...
09:47:21 <stassats`> (destructuring-bind (((x) . z)) '(((1) . 2)) (+ x z)) vs (let* ((x 1) (z 2))  (+ x z)), i don't see where you would find any commonality
09:47:53 <stassats`> yes, they do both are from CL package, use parenthesis and bind variables, but such a commonality isn't useful to draw any conclusions
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09:51:22 <Blkt> macroexpanding the destructuring-bind you wrote I see a few lets and type checks
09:51:55 <stassats`> well, good, what does it tell you?
09:52:14 <zorkmoid> Blkt: destructuring is more or less pattern matching ...
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09:52:21 <Blkt> not much
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09:53:26 <Blkt> if you're trying to point out the difference between a macro and a special operator, well, thank you, but that's absolutely useless in distinguishing when to use one rather than the other
09:54:20 <stassats`> blame me
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09:54:37 <zorkmoid> Blkt: http://www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/html/cltl/clm/node252.html
09:54:40 <Blkt> was that your goal?
09:55:01 <Zhivago> blkt: Probably the important difference is that you can't expect to macroexpand a special operator.
09:55:18 <Blkt> obviously
09:55:19 <Zhivago> So codewalkers need to know what they are and how to handle them.
09:55:21 <stassats`> Blkt: my goal was to disagree on #lisp with everyone and look angry, of course
09:55:38 <Zhivago> Although I guess I've missed the point of this conversation. :)
09:55:56 <Blkt> Zhivago: it all started with &aux...
09:56:05 <pnpuff> this is an interesting point and an interesting sicussion, useful to learn...
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09:57:43 <pnpuff> ..is an useful debate
09:58:00 <stassats`> it isn't
09:58:04 <Blkt> it's not a debate
09:59:07 <pnpuff> ok, sorry if I've said something of wrong... but now I know about destructuring of a lambda list.
10:00:13 <pnpuff> stassats`: anyway tuely I've to understand better the example you posted earlier.
10:02:02 <pnpuff> *truely
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10:06:34 <pnpuff> Sorry, but I have a doubt (so if possible I'm looking for an expalnation/clarification): why is not possible macroexpand a special operator?
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10:06:57 <stassats`> because it may be not a macro
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10:10:43 <pnpuff> ok, thanks. I just seen that a recursive function is not macroexpandable. (logically is not a macro!). Thanks for the answer.
10:11:17 <stassats`> special operators may be in fact macros
10:12:19 <stassats`> "An implementation is free to implement a Common Lisp special operator as a macro. An implementation is free to implement any macro operator as a special operator, but only if an equivalent definition of the macro is also provided."
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10:34:40 <pnpuff> when I try to use M-. (in Slime) to view the let* code I get: "No know definition for: let* (in COMMON-LISP-USER)" . This is right since (apropos "LET*" :common-lisp-user)==>No value and LET* seems "fbounded" in CL package. So what I have to do to view the sources of LET* from slime? Thanks.
10:35:29 <stassats`> possibly you can't do anything
10:35:55 <stassats`> but your reasoning about packages is wrong
10:37:43 <pnpuff> stassats`: sorry, how can I simply locate and view the source code of let* using slime and abcl (since M-. seems not working)?
10:37:54 <stassats`> you can't
10:38:53 <pnpuff> stassats`: can you kindly explain me why I can't? thx...
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10:41:28 <stassats`> because it's in the guts of the compiler, you can't "simply" locate it
10:44:20 <pnpuff> oh... thanks a lot! so now I need to know which file I need to open to look inside...
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10:45:24 <stassats`> compiler-pass1.lisp
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13:12:38 <nyef> G'morning all.
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13:14:24 <fe[nl]ix> hi nyef
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13:26:15 <[6502]> Hello... in SBCL IIRC locals are wrapped into cells only if they're captured in a closure. How is this implemented? is the source code walked twice or first an intermediate representation is generated?
13:26:36 <stassats`> intermediate representation is always generated
13:27:56 <nyef> There's also some cleverness involving escape analysis to determine if the cells should be heap-allocated or if they can be stack-allocated.
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13:41:57 <Guest10839> is it possibble too download all packages that quicklisp has
13:42:07 <stassats`> yes
13:42:15 <Guest10839> how
13:42:28 <stassats`> i don't remember offhand
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13:46:00 <Guest10839> how can one figure it out, stassats ....
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13:46:28 <stassats`> there should be a function to return all the systems
13:46:37 <stassats`> (ql-dist::provided-systems t) may do that
13:46:43 <stassats`> i don't have quicklisp installed, can't test
13:47:02 <nyef> Or system-apropos with an empty string, maybe?
13:47:08 <stassats`> but compiling all systems will usually fail
13:47:15 <stassats`> so, you also need a function to just download them
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13:49:39 <Guest10839> (dolist (x (ql-dist::provided-systems t)) (ql-dist::ensure-installed x))
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13:50:02 <stassats`> (mapcar #'ql-dist:ensure-installed (ql-dist:provided-releases t)) could be better
13:50:13 <stassats`> some projects have more than one system
13:50:13 <Guest10839> true
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13:50:31 <nyef> What about map nil? It's not like you need the result, after all...
13:50:51 <stassats`> nyef: not like one would care much
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14:03:03 <Guest10839> teepepepdee2 doesnt exist b
14:03:22 <stassats`> not enough pe
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14:06:19 <Guest10839> thank u
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14:09:00 <Kenjin> If I want to set multiple slots is it ok to use MULTIPLE-VALUE-BIND with WITH-SLOTS?
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14:09:44 <_death> m-v-b binds, not sets
14:09:44 <stassats`> Kenjin: it's orthogonal
14:09:56 <stassats`> multiple-value-bind won't set the value in the object
14:10:10 <stassats`> (setf (values slot1 slot2) (values x y)) wil
14:10:10 <_death> (with-slots (a b c) (multiple-value-setq (a b c) (values 1 2 3)))
14:10:13 <stassats`> l
14:10:31 <stassats`> multiple-value-setq is so last century
14:10:43 <_death> so is setf-values :)
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14:10:46 <Kenjin> haha
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14:10:57 <Kenjin> which one should I use then? matter of taste?
14:11:12 <stassats`> setf is more modern and shiny
14:11:18 <Kenjin> gotcha
14:11:24 <Kenjin> I like shiny
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14:22:26 <pnpuff> stassats`: I found a command for me: (SYMBOL-PLIST 'LET*). Thanks for the help!
14:22:41 <theseb> newbie functional programming question.....how would you implement *time varying quantities* without state? ....e.g. population growth, bank account balances, etc.?
14:22:43 <pnpuff> *useful for me...
14:22:56 <stassats`> that's precompiler
14:23:06 <pnpuff> yep...
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14:23:35 <stassats`> theseb: common lisp is not a pure functional programming language
14:24:11 <theseb> stassats`: yes if you WANTED to do pure function CL could you?
14:24:40 <stassats`> you could also check yourself into a mental institution straight away, would you?
14:25:43 <Zhivago> It wouldn't be CL if it were purely functional.
14:25:59 <Zhivago> Or, if your question is, can you express a pure function in CL, then no.
14:26:05 <theseb> stassats`: say that's a great idea for all your school assignments!....just write on your paper...."Now why would you want to do that?"
14:26:14 <Zhivago> (as opposed to implement)
14:26:42 <Zhivago> theseb: The answer is pretty obvious -- add a time parameter.
14:26:43 <theseb> Zhivago: my question is more of a math question...i'm wondering if functional can do everything interative programming can
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14:26:50 <Zhivago> Sure.
14:26:51 <theseb> s/math/theory
14:27:03 <Zhivago> That should be obviously true -- just make time explicit.
14:27:13 <pkhuong> theseb: I'm sure #haskell would be thrilled to entertain these questions.
14:27:17 <theseb> heh
14:27:37 <theseb> yea. i don't know haskell but they'd be the ones to ask a theory question like this...good idea thansk
14:27:39 <Zhivago> I'm sure they've gotten bored of being asked the same asinine questions over and over. :)
14:27:41 <theseb> thanks* even
14:27:47 <Zhivago> You could try #teenchat, though.
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14:29:28 <stassats`> looking in quicklisp code, i've stumbled upon split-spaces: https://github.com/quicklisp/quicklisp-client/blob/master/utils.lisp#L59 which looked too large to me, i came up with http://paste.lisp.org/display/138023
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14:30:04 <pkhuong> stassats`: send it to quickutil!
14:30:19 <Xach> stassats`: it's too big and buggy too, iirc
14:30:26 <stassats`> and Xach's split-spaces has a bug when there are spaces at the end
14:30:36 <stassats`> (split-spaces "   aa   fd  bcdef ") => ("aa" "fd" "bcdef" "bcdef ")
14:30:42 <Xach> right.
14:30:51 <stassats`> (split-spaces-2 "   aa   fd  bcdef ") => ("aa" "fd" "bcdef")
14:31:18 <ikosh> are there any window managers in active development besides stumpwm?
14:31:31 <stassats`> and i'm pasting so that somebody can write an even better version
14:32:45 <theseb> Zhivago: iirc you used to point out that pointers (e.g. in C) don't HAVE to be referenced by integers...but in general they point to a "vector of information" or some such..do you rem that?
14:32:57 <Zhivago> Um. What?
14:33:33 <Zhivago> If you mean that pointers aren't integers, sure. In C, at least, they're indexes into arrays.
14:34:04 <Zhivago> Although why you're talking about that here, I'm not sure.
14:35:01 <theseb> Zhivago: i never forgot that comment of yours....and I also never understood why that was interesting....i was afraid there was some brilliant subtle point I missed :)
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14:35:11 <stassats`> slightly better: http://paste.lisp.org/display/138023#1
14:35:40 <theseb> Zhivago: EVERY array I've ever seen is accessed by INTEGER indices....how on God's green earth could/would you do it differently?
14:36:08 <theseb> Zhivago: in a Scheme implementation or some other app?
14:36:20 <theseb> Zhivago: (notice how i  cleverly added lisp in the question :)
14:36:55 <stassats`> still shorter: http://paste.lisp.org/display/138023#2
14:37:16 <stassats`> not as cool without shiftf
14:37:24 <Zhivago> theseb: Remember that a[i] is *(a + i), and it should become more obvious.
14:37:40 <stassats`> and i initially used COMPLEMENT, which is slowest, of course
14:38:52 <theseb> Zhivago: sorry...i'm still missing it.....1. memory is composed of discrete "bins"....2. Those bins are numbered with integers....3. hence pointers correspond to integers....maybe if you gave an example where you did NOT use integers I'd see it...still can't sorry
14:39:06 <Zhivago> Consider segmented memory.
14:39:21 <stassats`> i'm sure that clisp will break on (or pos 0)
14:39:47 <stassats`> it didn't
14:39:49 <Xach> stassats`: I was wondering more about the trailing while
14:40:05 <Xach> but i don't have clisp installed anywhere
14:40:06 <stassats`> Xach: it's legal
14:40:35 <stassats`> it can't be wedged between FORs, but in the main section can appear anywhere
14:40:59 <theseb> Zhivago: presumably in segmented/paged/whatever memory you'd have 2 integers....one to denote the segment/page/whatever and then a second integer to denote the specific location on that unit
14:41:02 <Xach> ok
14:41:17 <Zhivago> theseb: A pair of integers is not an integer.
14:41:24 <stassats`> legal and works on clisp are not synonyms, but it does work in this case
14:42:32 <theseb> Zhivago: ah..so your point was sometimes you need MULTIPLE integers to specificy a memory location....sure...makes sense....
14:42:35 <stassats`> i can't be bothered to check CLHS right now, but i seem to remember that (or pos 0) is legal to
14:42:37 <nyef> Zhivago: A 16-bit integer and a 32-bit integer can be treated as a 48-bit integer, though...
14:42:42 <stassats`> since the variables are bound in the prologue to NIL
14:42:55 <Zhivago> theseb: No. My point was that a pointer isn't an integer (in C, at least).
14:43:19 <Zhivago> nyef: Sure, and a pound of fish can be used to bake an interesting cake.
14:43:31 <theseb> Zhivago: would agree a pointer is a vector of integers?
14:43:39 <Zhivago> theseb: No.
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14:43:44 <theseb> errr
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14:43:54 <Zhivago> theseb: Consider the semantics of a pointer ...
14:44:36 <theseb> Zhivago: the semantics/meaning of pointer is that is an address to a memory location
14:44:57 <Zhivago> theseb: That's tautological, and insufficient.
14:45:05 <Xach> Continue this discussion via private messages, please.
14:45:20 <Zhivago> Like I said, I don't know why you're having it here.
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14:49:15 <j_king> tautological pointers.
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14:49:23 <j_king> sorry, that's just awesome.
14:49:33 *j_king* moves on, nothing to see here.
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14:53:06 *stassats`* glances over quicklisp code
14:53:50 <stassats`> Xach: (or (eql output-file nil) (eql output-file t)) could be done as (typep output-file 'boolean)
14:54:24 <Xach> You don't even use Quicklisp!
14:54:53 <stassats`> i just installed it to answer a question, and decided to shame your code some
14:55:32 <stassats`> and it's not easily shameble :(
14:55:50 <Xach> sorry
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14:55:57 <fe[nl]ix> is that a Russian compliment ?
14:56:05 <fortitude> Xach: is there a particular reason you chose to store absolute urls in quicklisp?
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14:56:53 <Xach> fortitude: I think I wanted to make something-or-other simpler. I made the decision with intent, but I can't remember the intent now.
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14:57:24 <Xach> I do want to make it easy to transform the URLs before fetching, so you could do something like rewrite for a mirror or similar.
14:57:41 <fortitude> it is a little hard to move them around as is
14:57:51 <stassats`> Xach: when you use (file-position stream position), you could probably assert its value
14:57:53 <fortitude> dists, that is
14:57:55 <Xach> And in a related desire, I want to make it easy to provide your own fetching handlers for whatever protocol, so you could use HTTPS or file-based URLs or whatever.
14:58:07 <stassats`> i imagine it'd be hard to debug when it fails to change the position
14:58:14 <stassats`> but it may not happen with files too often
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16:48:08 <mathrick> has anyone seen/written something akin to python's doctest for CL?
16:48:42 <mathrick> ie. take dosctrings, look for executable snippets, treat them as test specifications to be executed?
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16:50:02 <mathrick> https://github.com/johanlindberg/doctest <-- ooh, spanking new
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17:41:00 <feep> hi, I'm making a paren-heavy interpreted language, and I have a question about debruijn indexes
17:41:21 <Bike> yes?
17:41:33 <feep> I translate my source tree into a form where all tokens are resolved so I don't have to do lookups at runtime
17:41:51 <pnpuff`> I need possibly a working link to download JAD because of I need decompile some simple Java classes (using ABCL). It's possible to use any other Java decompiler? Thanks.
17:41:55 <feep> and I use a format for accessing the stackframe that combines two indexes, "stack depth up" and "index in the stackframe"
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17:42:33 <feep> ie. (lambda (x) (lambda (y) (+ x y)) becomes (<lambda> 1 (<lambda> 1 (+ [0:0] [1:0])))
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17:42:52 <Bike> sure
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17:43:07 <feep> I thought this was _basically_ how debruijn indexes worked, if we assume that every lambda has exactly one parameter and ignore (let)s
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17:43:22 <feep> but my friend insists that this is completely unrelated to debruijn indexes and that I'm mangling formal language
17:43:24 <Bike> lets are just lambdas anyway
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17:43:52 <Bike> i think that's a terminology debate that sounds boring
17:43:52 <feep> Bike: well, in my lang lets' variables become part of the surrounding lambda's stackframe, which is why I'm ignoring them for the moment
17:44:19 <feep> it's probably a terminology debate, yeah
17:44:30 <feep> I'm just looking for some unbiased opinions
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17:45:28 <stassats> unbiased opinion is that your language is not Common Lisp, and isn't suited for discussion in this channel
17:46:12 <feep> that is correct. sadly there is no #lambdacalculus.. I figured #lisp was as close as it got, but alright
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17:47:49 <stassats> and what happens when there are nested lets?
17:47:58 oudeis [~oudeis@95.35.61.76] has joined #lisp
17:48:02 <stassats> shadowing lets
17:49:03 ejohnson [~Thunderbi@c-67-181-201-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp
17:50:00 <pnpuff`> is a compsci topic... I think it's awesome!
17:50:10 <pnpuff`> even if OT here.
17:53:42 -!- cross_ is now known as cross
17:54:33 <Denommus> stassats: speaking of which, is there a #lispfamily channel or anything like it?
17:56:18 Bike_ [~Glossina@75-164-171-252.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp
17:56:53 <Xach> What is that like?
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17:57:48 <Denommus> Xach: general Lisp discussion, even lisp-1 vs lisp-2 flamewar. I dunno
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17:58:51 <j_king> Denommus: #bikeshed ?
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17:59:31 <Xach> Denommus: I don't think so.
17:59:51 <stassats> there's #lispcafe, i see people often get deported there
18:00:07 <Denommus> #lispcafe should be more popular :-/
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18:02:06 <Denommus> now, does a static type CL still exist?
18:02:15 <Denommus> (like there's Typed Racket for Racket)
18:02:35 <stassats> it wouldn't be CL the, would it?
18:02:37 <stassats> then
18:03:03 <Denommus> stassats: it could be a language created on top of CL. Again, like the parallel I made
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18:04:01 <Denommus> Qi made something like that, didn't it?
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18:06:24 <stassats> it was really not CL
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18:07:33 <Denommus> I know. Like Typed Racket isn't Racket
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18:18:23 <pnpuff`> sorry if I'm tedious, but since JAD doesn't work on my platform and seems quite old, it's possible to use javac to decompile a class file using ABCL?
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18:18:46 <stassats> ask in #abcl or on the mailing list
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18:52:42 <arademaker> Where is the best place to place a question about cl-json?
18:53:19 <nightfly> You can try asking here
18:53:52 <arademaker> In SBCL it generates an error: (cl-json:encode-json '((:SIZE . ((:SMALL . ((:WX . "a") (:HX . "ads"))))))
18:53:53 <arademaker> 			 *standard-output*)
18:54:08 <arademaker> Help! 11 nested errors. SB-KERNEL:*MAXIMUM-ERROR-DEPTH* exceeded.
18:54:09 <arademaker> Backtrace for: #<SB-THREAD:THREAD "main thread" RUNNING {1002AE3A93}>
18:54:09 <arademaker> ; No value
18:54:09 <arademaker>  
18:54:20 <arademaker> In mlisp/alisp/abcl it works:
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18:54:49 <arademaker> cl-user(4): (cl-json:encode-json '((:SIZE . ((:SMALL . ((:WX . "a") (:HX . "ads"))))))
18:54:49 <arademaker> 			 *standard-output*)
18:54:49 <arademaker> {"size":{"small":{"wx":"a","hx":"ads"}}}
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18:55:49 <stassats> The value "a" is not of type LIST.
18:56:05 codd64 [~admin@148.Red-79-148-241.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp
18:56:07 <stassats> it calls mapcar on a dotted list
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18:57:51 <stassats> and then Value (:WX . "a") is not of a type which can be encoded by ENCODE-JSON.
18:58:07 <arademaker> but why it worked in mlisp/abcl?
18:58:20 -!- Bike_ is now known as Bike
18:58:37 <stassats> can you call mlisp allegro or ACL? it's a bit confusing
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18:59:57 <arademaker> mlisp allegro!
19:00:13 <arademaker> BTW, it works (cl-json:encode-json '((:WX . "a") (:HX . "ads"))
19:00:13 <arademaker> 			 *standard-output*)
19:00:13 <arademaker> {"wx":"a","hx":"ads"}
19:00:23 <stassats> just allegro, "m" means modern
19:00:35 -!- p_l [~pl@tsugumi.brage.info] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
19:01:18 <stassats> (mapcar #'list '(a . "b")) signals TYPE-ERROR on allegro, but SIMPLE-CONDITION on SBCL
19:01:44 <stassats> wait, that's my break-on-signals confusing me
19:01:48 mishoo [~mishoo@93.113.190.121] has joined #lisp
19:01:54 <stassats> sbcl signals a type-error too
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19:03:52 <arademaker> moreover, (cl-json:encode-json '((:SIZE . ((:SMALL ((:WX . "a") (:HX . "ads"))))))
19:03:52 <arademaker> 			 *standard-output*) produces [["size",["small",{"wx":"a","hx":"ads"}]]]
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19:04:33 <arademaker> should be {"size",["small",{"wx":"a","hx":"ads"}]}, right?
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19:06:18 <stassats> actually, (setf sb-kernel:*maximum-error-depth* 20)  and the result is {"size":{"small":{"wx":"a","hx":"ads"}}}
19:06:45 <stassats> cl-json is just signalling too much errors from handler-bind
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19:11:10 <stassats> this might be the best time to stop using cl-json
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19:13:31 <stassats> and i now see why it's so freaking slow
19:13:51 <ehu> hi
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19:15:39 <j_king> parsing json is pretty slow in the general case, afaik
19:15:58 <stassats> that's encoding json
19:16:19 <Bike> the grammar's only context-free, isn't it?
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19:16:47 <adeht> maybe you want encode-json-alist?
19:17:03 <adeht> instead of that silly guessing behavior
19:17:07 -!- pnpuff_ is now known as pnpuff
19:17:16 <pnpuff> hello ehu
19:17:24 <stassats> that what it looks like: http://paste.lisp.org/display/138026
19:17:35 <j_king> stassats: that too ;)
19:17:51 *j_king* spending too much time with protobuf/capn proto
19:17:56 <ehu> pnpuff: hi. I had an answer for you days ago, but i have no idea which one anymore
19:19:36 <j_king> maybe that's what I should do for my lisp in summer projects but I think I'm going to stick with getting a travis build pack for CL up and a travis client going then maybe a little web service to ingest/graph stats from travis.
19:19:58 <stassats> it could just use handler-case instead of handler-bind
19:20:48 -!- antgreen [green@nat/redhat/x-cznuwfjvdktzdgev] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
19:20:50 <j_king> and finally do something with cdr.io
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19:30:32 <ahungry> ughh... how frustrating
19:30:37 <ahungry> brand new centos 6 install
19:30:44 <ahungry> and quicklisp fails to load clsql
19:30:45 <ahungry> Couldn't load foreign library "clsql_mysql". (searched CLSQL-SYS:*FOREIGN-LIBRARY-SEARCH-PATHS*)
19:31:03 <stassats> did it build such a library?
19:31:06 <ahungry> same problem I had yesterday on older centos but this time the files are in /usr/lib/mysql as it should expect
19:31:56 <stassats> just go there and run make
19:33:22 <ahungry> maybe it has to do with the adsf output translations file i'm using, let me try removing
19:33:28 antgreen [green@nat/redhat/x-inhzdfvoktsygxwo] has joined #lisp
19:33:32 <Xach> Doubtful.
19:33:34 <ahungry> just wiped the quicklisp dir and reran intial quicklisp.lisp setup file
19:33:41 <ahungry> now it hits  Couldn't load foreign library "clsql_uffi". (searched CLSQL-SYS:*FOREIGN-LIBRARY-SEARCH-PATHS*)
19:34:56 <ehu> ahungry: do you have all those libs installed?
19:35:23 <stassats> ehu: they are to be built
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19:41:32 <ahungry> man centos is a nightmare, latest sbcl for x86_64 won't work due to centos having glibc that is not new enough
19:41:33 <specbot> Sorry, I couldn't find anything for centos is a nightmare, latest sbcl for x86_64 won't work due to centos having glibc that is not new enough.
19:41:44 <ahungry> lol thanks specbot
19:42:09 <ahungry> then sbcl i686 version was my next attempt, and I run into the quicklisp issues
19:42:23 <ahungry> I think it is problems with it making 32 bit binaries on this 64bit centos despite the multiarch gcc installed
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19:42:39 <stassats> sbcl should work fine
19:42:41 <ahungry> now gonna try an older version of the x86_64 binary on centos, wish me luck
19:42:54 <stassats> the binary from sbcl.org may not, but you can build it yourself
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19:44:16 <arademaker> Hello All, thanks all for the comments! Anyway, it is still not clear to me why cl-json works different in SBCL than ABCL, ACL etc.
19:44:16 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ho1.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
19:44:18 <stassats> at least you're not using RHL
19:44:21 <ahungry> ugh, even the 1.0.58 sbcl wants glibc 2.14
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19:44:24 <ahungry> /usr/src/lisp/sbcl-1.0.58-x86-64-linux/src/runtime/sbcl: /lib64/libc.so.6: version `GLIBC_2.14' not found (required by /usr/src/lisp/sbcl-1.0.58-x86-64-linux/src/runtime/sbcl)
19:44:30 <stassats> arademaker: it was answered
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19:44:52 <stassats> if you missed it: it signals too much errors from handler-bind
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19:49:26 <ahungry> Anyone know offhand the last sbcl that supports glibc 2.12?  I thought i can't compile an instance of sbcl unless I have a working sbcl
19:50:01 <ehu> arademaker: it does? which ones are problematic?
19:51:05 <ahungry> Without reading through all the sbcl releases, what is lost when using, say, sbcl 1.0.1 vs 1.0.58?  any major show stoppers?
19:51:30 <Xach> those are both so very old
19:51:44 <stassats> ahungry: you can build the current sbcl with sbcl 1.0.1
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19:52:31 <stassats> there's been incredibly many changes since 1.0.1
19:52:41 <stassats> like 7 years of changes
19:53:14 <ahungry> ahh nice - ok, so in a centos 64 bit environment where 32bit sbcl binary will not work due to quicklisp issues with clsql
19:53:20 <ahungry> my best bet is to grab an old 64bit binary that will work
19:53:26 <ahungry> and use that binary to compile the lastest sbcl 64
19:53:31 <ahungry> against my glibc 2.12
19:53:39 <nyef_> ahungry: Why can't you cross-build from the 32-bit binary?
19:53:41 <stassats> you can use a 32-bit sbcl to compile the 64-bit one too
19:53:55 <ahungry> oh good deal, I will restore my working 32bit 1.0.58 then
19:53:58 <ahungry> thanks guys
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19:57:50 <ahungry> When using the 32bit sbcl to create my 64bit one, do I need to pass any options to make.sh?
19:58:14 <stassats> it will, you don't
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20:16:58 <jjbhusssj> Hmm
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20:21:47 <ahungry> yay, success
20:21:49 <ahungry> thanks guys
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20:38:35 <ahungry> still took a manual "make" in the clsql/db-mysql directory, and an ldconfig to have it quickloadable
20:38:41 <ahungry> but hey, it works :)
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22:00:58 <robot-beethoven> let's say my-class has my-slot with :accessor my-access.  if i define a method that specializes my-access for strings, can i use (WITH-ACCESSORS ((access my-access)) my-string ...)?
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22:03:13 <Bike> "The consequences are undefined if any accessor-name is not the name of an accessor for the instance."
22:03:21 <Bike> i... think it might work anyway, though. usually.
22:05:07 <robot-beethoven> but it would be a non-standard practice?
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22:06:30 <Bike> technically. but yours would work with the suggested expansion, and sbcl's is basically the same as that along with some spooky pcl declaration.
22:07:23 <robot-beethoven> spooky pcl declaration?
22:08:03 <Bike> try (macroexpand-1 '(with-accessors ((access my-access)) string foo bar baz)) and see
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22:12:43 <robot-beethoven> should i be concerned that someday... somewhere... i might transfer my code to some mythological future common lisp implementation that expands WITH-ACCESSORS differently, requiring me to rewrite things (and possibly even spoiling part of a beautiful afternoon)?
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22:14:54 <Bike> eh, probably not
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22:26:30 <jaccarmac> Hello!
22:26:53 <nibalizer> ohai!
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23:43:17 <pjb> robot-beethoven: it will be much worse than having to spend an afternoon on it.  This is typically the kind of bugs you spend weeks hunting down.
23:43:59 <pjb> And if it occurs on your spaceship enroute to Mars, in the atmosphere control system, you don't have weeks to debug it.
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23:52:55 <robot-beethoven> it will be a beautiful day when my hunchentoot webserver controls the atmosphere