00:00:07 Ryxai [~Whitewolf@ool-457a9364.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 00:00:14 -!- mjs2600 [~mjs2600@user-0c999kc.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:00:54 mjs2600 [~mjs2600@user-0c999kc.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 00:01:28 nightfly [~sage@205.185.122.101] has joined #lisp 00:01:30 (set-pprint-dispatch 'cons (lambda (stream object) (format stream "(~A . ~A)" (car object) (cdr object)))) 00:03:14 theseb: One example I like is: "Is ((a 1) (b 2) (c 3)) an alist, a blist, a list, a cons or a generalized boolean?" Answer: It could be any, depending on context. The same goes for reading or printing conses as the conses themselves or as a list... 00:04:02 blist isn't a thing! 00:04:17 To me it is! 00:04:43 bindings list? 00:05:25 See https://twitter.com/HexstreamSoft/statuses/232879198937706496?tw_i=232879198937706496&tw_e=details&tw_p=archive and https://twitter.com/HexstreamSoft/statuses/301158797257359361?tw_i=301158797257359361&tw_e=details&tw_p=archive 00:06:42 (Oops, just linked one of them would have been enough as they're, well... linked.) 00:06:53 "just linking" 00:08:19 DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@CPE-58-164-43-111.lnse5.ken.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 00:09:09 -!- pierpa [~user@host204-228-dynamic.51-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:17:44 -!- ezakimak [~nick@72.250.219.55] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:24:23 -!- ASau [~user@p4FF96B51.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:27:59 ASau [~user@p4FF96B51.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 00:32:21 icarious 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[~mjs2600@user-0c999kc.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:15:28 mjs2600 [~mjs2600@user-0c999kc.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 02:15:59 -!- Hexstream [~hexstream@184.161.190.194] has left #lisp 02:16:17 knob [~knob@64.237.232.27] has joined #lisp 02:19:50 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:21:26 -!- foreignFunction [~niksaak@ip-4761.sunline.net.ua] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:23:56 -!- chu [~user@unaffiliated/chu] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 02:29:53 -!- ejohnson [~Thunderbi@c-67-181-201-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:35:03 -!- hwiersma [~hwiersma@d50-92-237-119.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:35:32 -!- rk[xp] is now known as ryankarason 02:40:11 -!- zacts [~zacts@unaffiliated/zacts] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:49:38 echo-area [~user@182.92.247.2] has joined #lisp 02:52:03 victor_lowther [~victor.lo@adsl-99-104-106-172.dsl.aus2tx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:53:15 paddymahoney [~patrick@198-84-186-52.cpe.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 02:56:35 nug700 [~nug700@174-26-145-138.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 03:00:27 I just got the new TAGBODY/GO implementation worked into my compiler - conditions work - does anybody have any small, tricky condition using CL code to test it with? 03:01:57 -!- zRecursive [~czsq888@118.112.68.14] has left #lisp 03:02:54 bjorkintosh [~bjork@ip68-13-229-200.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 03:03:42 breakds [~breakds@cpe-74-79-147-26.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:04:15 -!- ehaliewicz [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:11:07 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 03:13:31 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 03:14:26 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 03:17:50 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 03:18:43 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 03:21:23 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@50-196-148-102-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 03:21:46 kpreid [~kpreid@50-196-148-102-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 03:22:20 I found a small example http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?LispRestartExample - seems to be working 03:22:36 Next up - add garbage collection. 03:24:15 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@CPE-58-164-43-111.lnse5.ken.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 03:30:14 -!- syrinx_ [~quassel@unaffiliated/syrinx-/x-4255893] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:34:36 -!- abeaumont [~abeaumont@181.Red-88-25-116.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 03:34:52 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:36:39 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 03:40:19 Whatnow [~Whitewolf@ool-457a9364.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 03:40:24 -!- Ryxai 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zeroish nialo- adnap smull Cymew nicdev dlowe othar robot-beethoven dented42 karswell fe[nl]ix joshe gko em kanru jagaj sellout- Myk267 s00pcan ckoch786 walter|r ckoch786_ johnzorn Kabaka jasom j0ni strobegen hpd dRbiG vsync Neptu aoh Anarch wchun pjb daimrod otwieracz joneshf-work lemoinem 15:50:01 -!- names: lusory_ ramus aeth sid_cypher BlastHardcheese bejer mathrick s0ber dmiles_afk The_third_man devoutful06 davorb-cellphone sbryant daem0n _8hzp cpt_nemo guaqua |3b| antifuchs drdo tycho expez tvaalen fds arkx rabite davorb_ luis ivan4th ozzloy tali713 GuilOooo_ gendl BeLucid_ rvchangue sirdancealot ckoch_ asedeno sykopomp Wukix` cYmen_ Krystof yano Modius _veer ered Natch froggey MoALTz cods Fade __main__ stopbit [SLB] net4all felideon dsp_ prip_ TristamWrk 15:50:01 -!- names: clog xristos ivan\ freiksenet dfox isomorphismes Tribal dim gemelen __class__ Yamazaki-kun nuba justinmcp_ Borbus gf3 n0vember aerique samebchase SquidTamer mikaelj ivan housel banjiewen oGMo jdz spacebat ZombieChicken wyan scharan Patzy ggherdov H4ns madnificent pchrist joast p_l tkd cross galdor tessier Khisanth fsmunoz JPeterson johanbev mal___ pr kbtr eak Jubb Jabberwockey dan64 foom quasisane redline6561 reb zmyrgel adeht Xach cibs hypno ``Erik 15:50:01 -!- names: epsylon specbot eli seantallen deliciousrobots clop ski photex vhost- Watcher7|off anaumov callen Foxboron djinni` tomaw gensym Zhivago yroeht cmbntr Adeon Amadiro Subfusc sytse nitefli ineiros sshirokov pok nitro_idiot_ joachifm_ peccu1 15:50:02 theseb: the law describes hardware in general, like transistors per square micrometer or clock rate, not specific architectures 15:50:09 -!- Kabaka [~Kabaka@botters/kabaka] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:50:10 nmeum [~nmeum@2a00:12c0:1015:123::] has joined #lisp 15:50:14 cdidd [~cdidd@176.14.36.221] has joined #lisp 15:50:24 theseb: For the longest time, Intel chips confirmed Moore's observations because its RAM business ensured decent volume for its fabs. 15:50:27 victor_lowther [~victorlow@143.166.116.80] has joined #lisp 15:50:31 sid_cypher: yes..so what do people mean then when they say "Moore's Law killed Lisp Machines"? 15:51:11 theseb: that was a very wild and uneducated guess 15:51:16 -!- felideon [~felideon@199.241.28.84] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:51:27 sid_cypher: Until about 1990 dont you mean µm per transistor? 15:51:36 theseb: current out of order superscalar x86 machines are better at executing lisp that lisp machines ever were. 15:51:36 theseb: they mean that the general-purpose machines driven by market outpaced lisp machines at their own game, i.e. running lisp 15:52:03 Takumo: haha, yeah^^ 15:52:06 AeroNotix [~xeno@abny71.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 15:52:39 my meta-question is that i wonder if having an architecture that is lisp all the way down would be better/useful in some way 15:52:53 Hi All, I'm a programmer who is new to Lisp but feels the time is right to learn it. I'll come back to chat lisp, obviously but probably have some noob questions. 15:54:12 Kabaka [~Kabaka@botters/kabaka] has joined #lisp 15:54:46 they say horrible things about lisp community :) how noobs get beaten with sticks and stuff. haven't noticed that sort of thing myself so far 15:55:13 sdemarre [~serge@97.165-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 15:57:56 theseb: special hardware is made for a special task, i doubt that optimizing hardware for a high-level general-purpose language would bring anything but trouble. check out how complex good compilers are. how do that complexity in metal) 15:58:11 about that cl-who and CDATA question, I'm using `(:description (str "")) and that works 15:58:44 smazga [~acrid@64.55.45.194] has joined #lisp 16:01:56 sid_cypher: do you know what a random access machine is?....general purpose CPUs resemble those...that is why C is so useful 16:02:42 sid_cypher: i was wondering if you could make a general purpose CPU with another model of computation 16:03:31 felideon [~felideon@199.241.28.84] has joined #lisp 16:03:47 theseb: try to get your hand on http://www.amazon.com/dp/0070355967 - it is very interesting. then read http://www.amazon.com/books/dp/0123704901 to know why all the machines that kogge describes are no longer in existence. 16:04:10 H4ns: thanks 16:04:33 checked out what pediwikia has on RAM, basically von-neumann if i get it right. 16:05:09 theseb: i think a forth processor would be easier at the beginning) 16:05:55 Kruppe [~user@j2petkovich.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 16:06:17 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:06:18 sid_cypher: von neumann processor gives the impression that C style hardware is somehow the most practical for real hardware.....it makes lisp model of computation seem like second best...hence i was wondering if it can be modified to be more like lisp 16:06:40 and still be useful as general purpose chip 16:07:08 fantazo [~fantazo@213.129.230.10] has joined #lisp 16:08:57 theseb: the point is that general purpose machines can execute lisp faster than a specialized lisp machine because the amount of engineering that goes into general purpose machines benefits the execution of lisp as well. 16:09:24 axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-88-224.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:09:53 theseb: or, put the other way round, the amount of engineering required to build a lisp machine that would run at speeds competetive to general purpose systems is too large to be practical, in particular given the limited benefits that such an architecture would have. 16:10:24 H4ns: i think theseb is talking not about the "is" state, but rather "could be" state 16:10:27 theseb: it may be that there are benefits not spelled out in such an architecture, but "beauty" alone is not sufficient to warrant the amount of engineering required. 16:10:27 the amount of engineering could've went into lisp machines 16:10:37 sid_cypher: it could, but it did not. 16:11:02 -!- sdemarre [~serge@97.165-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 16:11:23 The challenges involved in making hardware make Java or C++ code go fast aren't that different from what lisp calls for. 16:11:25 H4ns: yeah, so does that make the topic not worth discussing for you? 16:11:35 H4ns: i think i see your point....your point is that it is not wise to make hardware to target a specific high level language....better to make it target a simpler low level model of computation 16:12:12 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-163-178.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 16:12:15 H4ns: but my FOLLOW ON question to that is whether that low level model of computation MIGHT be something closer to lambda calculus/lisp 16:12:22 sid_cypher: well, i'm guilty of having participated in this discussion again and again. 16:12:31 sid_cypher: and i'm doing it now, so what? :) 16:12:39 theseb: what's the value of that? 16:12:43 i imagine that we'll need a lisp-like processor interface when the processors become rewireable on the fly, so that we need hardware macros 16:12:59 H4ns: i see :) 16:13:00 theseb: i can spell out a possible value for you: it might be possible to create a machine that is provably correct, and executes lisp. 16:13:12 H4ns: i just really want to know if the current model of hardware is somehow sacred or if it is just an accident of history 16:13:43 theseb: it is a product of the markets 16:13:53 i wonder if a Haskell processor would be better. delicious purity and lack of state 16:14:23 theseb: the market for special purpose machines was too small, so they largely died out 16:14:38 sid_cypher: exactly..but presumably you'd built it up in layers...the lowest layer would be probably lambda calculus and then you'd implement haskell in software on top of THAT 16:14:39 sid_cypher: better for what? better because of what? 16:14:52 -!- hwiersma [~hwiersma@d50-92-237-119.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:15:29 H4ns: NO! you didn't see my repeated clarification that I'm NOT talking about special purpose machines....i'm discussing making a new GENERAL purpose machine in lambda calculus....if my idea is crazy so be it...just thought i'd ask 16:15:37 nbouscal [~nbouscal@c-67-185-201-65.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:16:13 H4ns: this isn't for real work..just a "what if" question....i think that is where me and sid_cypher are coming from 16:17:12 theseb: i also get H4ns, we're just spouting words for coolness' sake being all impractical 16:17:16 I'm guessing you want to look into "Lambda: the ultimate opcode" and graph reduction machines like the Reduceron. 16:18:04 might as well talk about quantum computers and annealers like d-wave 16:18:38 what would a dialect of lisp for a quantum computer be like? 16:18:39 pkhuong: thanks! 16:18:48 sid_cypher: i don't care 16:18:50 :) 16:18:52 -!- HDurer [~user@pdpc/supporter/active/hdurer] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:19:58 i 0.6*do + 0.8*don't care 16:20:25 i 0.6xdo + 0.8xdon't care 16:20:41 pkhuong: yes i think that is what i meant...perfect paper on this topic..thanks 16:22:17 a friend of mine was doing lambda calculus assignment for the class yesterday, he coded them in C. i took lisp, of course. 16:22:44 nmeum_ [~nmeum@p20030058A6149C01BD0012A074ADF434.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 16:23:47 -!- nmeum_ [~nmeum@p20030058A6149C01BD0012A074ADF434.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Client Quit] 16:23:56 it isn't clear to me what the difference is between lisp and lambda calculus....i think lambda calculus is the core of lisp 16:24:17 would be cool to make a game like manufactoria or kohctpyktop, but with lambda structures, like true/false conditionals and combinators 16:25:28 hwiersma [~hwiersma@S0106602ad08e475a.ok.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 16:25:54 mjs2600 [~mjs2600@24.106.194.14] has joined #lisp 16:26:12 lisp is above one paradigm 16:26:44 youlysses [~user@75-132-28-10.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 16:26:46 you can define lambda stuff there, or turing-machine stuff 16:27:07 nmeum_ [~nmeum@p20030058A6149C01BD0012A074ADF434.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 16:27:30 argh theyre all equivalent anyway so you define one in another somehow 16:28:10 it boils down to comfortable notation, that's it 16:28:16 -!- nmeum_ [~nmeum@p20030058A6149C01BD0012A074ADF434.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Client Quit] 16:28:57 -!- teggi_ [~teggi@123.20.107.130] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:29:00 nmeum_ [~nmeum@p20030058A6149C01BD0012A074ADF434.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 16:29:22 -!- Thra11 [~Thra11@51.202.125.91.dyn.plus.net] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.1] 16:30:09 -!- nmeum_ [~nmeum@p20030058A6149C01BD0012A074ADF434.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Client Quit] 16:30:40 nmeum_ [~nmeum@p20030058A6149C01BD0012A074ADF434.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 16:30:52 sometimes a loop is much more comfortable to read and write compared to recursion through self-application with y-combinators and stuff 16:32:02 -!- nmeum_ [~nmeum@p20030058A6149C01BD0012A074ADF434.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Client Quit] 16:32:12 -!- nialo- [~yaaic@66-87-87-4.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:33:37 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@213.129.230.10] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:34:28 -!- alama [~jessealam@HSI-KBW-095-208-248-068.hsi5.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 16:34:49 sid_cypher: are y-combinators easy to understand? i tried and failed once..i should try again..something wasn't clicking 16:35:57 if you code a server with logging in haskell, you'll have enough pattern mastery to get it) 16:36:00 Thra11 [~Thra11@51.202.125.91.dyn.plus.net] has joined #lisp 16:36:32 then again, it's easy when you just see through the pattern 16:38:00 mjs2600_ [~mjs2600@24.106.194.14] has joined #lisp 16:38:04 -!- mjs2600 [~mjs2600@24.106.194.14] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 16:38:46 Corvidium [~cosman246@D-173-250-161-88.dhcp4.washington.edu] has joined #lisp 16:40:01 just as the beauty is in the eye of the observer, so is the understanding in the head of a thinker 16:40:37 sdemarre [~serge@97.165-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 16:40:53 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 16:41:49 things are not easy or hard intrinsically, people see them as one or the other on an individual basis. 16:45:13 -!- iLogical is now known as intrulso 16:45:58 -!- Corvidium [~cosman246@D-173-250-161-88.dhcp4.washington.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:46:29 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-1-78.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:47:54 -!- theseb [~cs@74.194.237.26] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:48:59 -!- ahungry [~null@99-40-10-216.lightspeed.livnmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:49:04 -!- ahungry_ [~null@66.184.106.97] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:49:20 ahungry 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[~user@84.77.187.252] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:05:38 icarious [~icarious@unaffiliated/icarious] has joined #lisp 19:06:08 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:06:17 ... creating a macro that depends on side effects wasn't my best idea 19:06:28 -!- lkjh_ [~lkjh@170.20.11.31] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:08:23 I think one of the Elixir tutorials did exactly that as a "look at this neat thing you can do but don't ever do this seriously oh my god" 19:11:36 ejohnson [~Thunderbi@c-67-181-201-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:14:40 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-136-108.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:15:21 -!- jrajav [~jrajav@198.179.137.210] has quit [Quit: phunq, sandwich store loop, WHAT NO UNIVERSE] 19:17:43 -!- banjara [~Adium@unaffiliated/banjara] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:18:58 banjara [~Adium@unaffiliated/banjara] has joined #lisp 19:22:48 nug700 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#lisp 19:39:01 banjara [~Adium@unaffiliated/banjara] has joined #lisp 19:40:44 If I want to 'undefine' a method I have to unintern it right? 19:41:27 PuercoPop: inspect the generic function in slime. 19:41:39 yeah, unintern works fine, probably could shadow, too, if inherited 19:41:57 PuercoPop: no 19:42:06 sid_cypher: I want to undo my print-object and get the generic one instead. 19:42:27 PuercoPop: undefine a method or generic-function? 19:43:23 a method 19:43:30 PuercoPop: sorry, i don't have experience with print-objects 19:43:40 then unintern doesn't work. 19:43:45 <|3b|> uninterning PRINT-OBJECT would probably be a bad idea 19:43:53 clhs remove-method 19:43:53 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_rm_met.htm 19:44:05 and find-method 19:44:06 the problem with lisp is that it's so arcane 19:45:44 found a (remove-method generic-function method) 19:45:45 -!- icarious [~icarious@unaffiliated/icarious] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.1] 19:46:48 good job 19:47:08 sid_cypher: but how to use it? 19:47:09 easye [~user@213.33.70.157] has joined #lisp 19:48:16 checking out http://github.com/sbcl/sbcl/blob/master/tests/clos-add-remove-method.impure.lisp 19:48:24 -!- banjara [~Adium@unaffiliated/banjara] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:48:37 banjara [~Adium@unaffiliated/banjara] has joined #lisp 19:48:41 icarious [~icarious@unaffiliated/icarious] has joined #lisp 19:48:44 -!- banjara [~Adium@unaffiliated/banjara] has quit [Client Quit] 19:48:59 banjara [~Adium@unaffiliated/banjara] has joined #lisp 19:49:01 well hyperspec should tell you how to use metaobjects 19:49:18 -!- grayston [~grayston@h182125.upc-h.chello.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:49:24 a gf isn't a metaobject 19:49:37 i never tried removing a method at runtime yet 19:49:51 but *I* know how to use remove-method 19:50:32 my point was that someone may need to point PuercoPop in the right direction. 19:50:34 gf isn't, remove-method itself is, according to spec 19:50:39 -!- banjara [~Adium@unaffiliated/banjara] has quit [Client Quit] 19:50:56 banjara [~Adium@unaffiliated/banjara] has joined #lisp 19:52:20 Dalek_Baldwin [~Adium@71-84-34-33.dhcp.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has joined #lisp 19:52:31 sid_cypher: hmm where do you see that? I just read the page for it, but it doesn't mention any of it 19:52:50 -!- youlysses_away is now known as youlysses 19:53:11 -!- nug700 [~nug700@174-26-145-138.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:53:20 It is easiest to inspect it in SLIME and click remove method on the method in question 19:53:24 book On Lisp chapter 25.4 has an example of removing a method, and lots of text too 19:54:06 Xach: can I do that on the list that slime-who-specializes returns?! 19:54:39 PuercoPop: you don't have to bother with that. you just inspect #'print-object 19:54:53 C-c I #'print-object RET 19:56:37 ehu: sorry, i misread. remove-method takes a metaobject as an argument and is itself a gf, apparently 19:56:46 http://www.franz.com/support/documentation/9.0/doc/mop/dictionary.html#remove-method 19:57:26 i still don't get the fine details, need to study CLOS more 19:57:56 sid_cypher: that's the MOP's remove-method, not CL:REMOVE-METHOD. 19:58:19 http://l1sp.org/cl/remove-method 19:58:35 Xach: thank you. i've seen both 19:59:45 ncw [~ncw@host81-151-2-142.range81-151.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 20:00:13 wheelsucker [~user@168.114.240.151] has joined #lisp 20:00:24 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.97.16] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:01:51 -!- mjs2600_ [~mjs2600@24.106.194.14] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:01:57 \o/ It worked, it is amazing! 20:02:21 PuercoPop: the slime thing? 20:02:26 yeah! 20:04:02 it is very handy and much easier than constructing FIND-METHOD/REMOVE-METHOD calls 20:04:47 hajovonta [~user@540376E8.catv.pool.telekom.hu] has joined #lisp 20:04:50 hello 20:05:41 hajovonta: hi 20:05:59 -!- rk[zzz] is now known as ryankarason 20:06:23 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:07:13 Xach: i've tried slime-inspect on a hash-table, it gives info. how can you use it to remove things? 20:07:37 sid_cypher: I don't know if you can use it to remove elements from a hash table, but it can be used to remove methods from a GF. 20:08:25 Xach: great, thank you. 20:09:37 -!- banjara [~Adium@unaffiliated/banjara] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:09:50 banjara [~Adium@unaffiliated/banjara] has joined #lisp 20:10:38 it does let you remove keys from the table. how cool. 20:13:19 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:18:40 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 20:20:32 When people said slime is the best development environment ever I just thought they meant due to the repl style of programming, then last week I find out about xref-functionality in slime and now this? It makes like eclipse look like notepad++ 20:21:36 PuercoPop: lol 20:21:48 What makes eclipse like notepad, is how you can write new commands for slime in emacs lisp, vs. how you can write new commands in eclipse (you can, but it's harder). 20:21:54 and it's not even 1/10th the size 20:22:43 pjb: ecclipse commands need to be programmed injava, i presume? 20:23:10 Well, in JVM, at least. 20:23:51 -!- banjara [~Adium@unaffiliated/banjara] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:24:08 banjara [~Adium@unaffiliated/banjara] has joined #lisp 20:26:01 -!- arenz [~arenz@HSI-KBW-109-193-252-079.hsi7.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20:26:29 Theoretically, one could extend Eclipse in ABCL. 20:27:58 easye: what's the practical issue? 20:28:00 :-) 20:29:03 PuercoPop: xref? 20:29:54 The practical issue is the number of interfaces one needs to implement for simple Eclipse plugins. And getting all the metadata correct. 20:30:24 ehu` [~ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 20:31:39 cross-reference functionality, like slime-who-specializes/slime-who-macroexpans/etc 20:33:49 PuercoPop: that's cool 20:34:15 -!- banjara [~Adium@unaffiliated/banjara] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:34:28 banjara [~Adium@unaffiliated/banjara] has joined #lisp 20:34:29 slyrus [~chatzilla@173-228-44-92.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 20:35:06 -!- easy-iPad [~easyipad@chello080109062130.15.14.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Quit: Outta here?] 20:36:18 hajovonta: Yeah, I-ve found there a various pro-tips on http://slime-tips.tumblr.com/ Like auto-add the current function to the list of exported symbols 20:36:50 -!- banjara [~Adium@unaffiliated/banjara] has quit [Client Quit] 20:37:06 banjara [~Adium@unaffiliated/banjara] has joined #lisp 20:38:12 -!- impulse [~impulse@65.95.105.59] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20:39:33 -!- ISF [~ivan@187.106.24.203] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:40:20 -!- jewel [~jewel@105-236-178-139.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:40:58 -!- ryankarason [~rak@108-245-58-182.lightspeed.clmboh.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: resetting] 20:41:10 impulse [~impulse@65.95.105.59] has joined #lisp 20:43:00 -!- nmeum_ [~nmeum@p20030058A6149C01BD0012A074ADF434.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:44:18 It's really more a question of culture than technical differences between languages. After all, java has a garbage collector. But java programmers insist on using static typing. They're doing ridiculous things, such as using a lot of classes/interfaces/packages with just final static Strings, (so the compiler can check that you're using a string that has been defined), instead of using symbols with run-time check like we'd do in li 20:44:18 (or with macro-expansion-time check of course). 20:44:25 -!- banjara [~Adium@unaffiliated/banjara] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:44:40 banjara [~Adium@unaffiliated/banjara] has joined #lisp 20:44:50 A lisper can write lisp programs in any programming language 20:44:57 hi, why is it style warning please? "&OPTIONAL and &KEY found in the same lambda list" 20:45:23 Because it's a bitch to use. 20:45:35 You must remember providing all the optional arguments before you can pass a keyword. 20:45:42 ah, of course 20:45:47 Since keyword arguments are also optional, you can just do without &optional. 20:45:56 There are only 2 functions in CL that have both 20:46:02 (legacy). 20:46:04 understand, thanks 20:46:20 ryankarason [~rak@108-245-58-182.lightspeed.clmboh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:46:23 pjb: but one can use &allow-other-keys instead right? 20:46:42 If you need to accept other keys, yes. 20:46:47 It's not the same thing. 20:47:07 Also, you can always pass :allow-other-keys t to a function that takes &key arguments. 20:47:07 breakds [~breakds@cpe-74-79-147-26.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:47:30 (defun f (&key k) k) (f :a 1 :b 2 :allow-other-keys t) --> NIL 20:47:32 Though some implementations scream and holler if you do that on standard functions 20:47:56 Yes, some implementations are finickly. 20:48:06 -!- bitonic` [~user@2.124.93.36] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:48:11 pjb: why would someone need to do such things? 20:48:49 -!- spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:48:53 hmm I noticed sbcl didn't signal an error when I did (setf foo 42) without defining it.. iirc it used to be more strict.. 20:49:27 adeht: it warns, like it always did, here. 20:49:47 hitecnologys: compatibility with extra keywords in different implementations. 20:49:57 adeht: maybe you're using the interpreter? 20:50:20 adeht:could it you had it defined and forgot? try another one like foo30456 20:50:30 hitecnologys: some CL function specs allow for extensions. If you use such an extension, you can add :allow-other-keys t so that your code still works in the other implementations (as long as the extension is semantically compatible). 20:50:55 for example, directory pathspec &key => pathnames 20:51:06 pjb: so, it's just because people can't come to agreement about all this extensions things? 20:51:24 Well, there are differing circumstances. 20:52:34 You could write: (directory "*.lisp" :case-sensitive t :allow-other-keys t) if an implementation allowed :case-sensitive or not matching, and if your code could deal with toto.LISP as well as with toto.Lisp. 20:53:18 pjb: I wish CLISP didn't complain when it compiled forms like that. 20:53:24 I would prefer a runtime error. 20:53:26 Yeah, but there should be some kind of standard for this. This (&|:)allow-other-keys looks like hack or something for me. (that's just my opinion, I don't judge anyone) 20:53:37 otherwise, you would have to write: (directory "*.lisp" #+THIS-IMPLEMENTATION :case-sensitive #+THIS-IMPLEMENTATION t) 20:53:57 hitecnologys: it is an escape hatch 20:54:16 hitecnologys: I agree that I prefer precise specifications too. 20:54:26 ok, you all may know that I'm doing a FSM DSL. But is there a asdf system already made? 20:55:17 Denommus: a lot of them, in ~/quicklisp. 20:55:27 (directory #P"~/quicklisp/**/*.asd") 20:55:47 -!- zophy [goldenligh@gateway/shell/devio.us/x-aftukjwscgzrcojj] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 20:56:26 Denommus: there's Microlang which I wrote, it's somehow a state machine but it's more like FORTH+Brainfuck actually. 20:57:07 I'm making something similar to QML, in the sense that it has transitions between the states 20:57:08 Denommus: (ql:quickload :com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum) (use-package :com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.dfa) 20:57:24 but I'm struggling to avoid using threads and messages in these transitions 20:57:25 (documentation (find-package :com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.dfa) t) 20:58:21 That's something funny too: (documentation (find-package :com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.dfa) t) vs. (documentation :com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.dfa 'package) ; objects vs. designator 20:58:42 Denommus: why do you need such language that looks like QML? 20:58:54 -!- sdemarre [~serge@97.165-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20:59:23 -!- hajovonta [~user@540376E8.catv.pool.telekom.hu] has quit [Quit: end of day] 20:59:30 hitecnologys: making FSM's for game development 21:00:03 in my case, my scripting language is ECL :) 21:00:04 Well, for games, you probably want to compile the FSM to some spread out, inside out, code. 21:00:13 Denommus: QML looks more like CSS for me, I can't imagine how could that be used in game ._. 21:00:17 Denommus: have you read about crash bandicoot? 21:00:23 pjb: what do you mean? 21:01:00 Denommus: http://all-things-andy-gavin.com/2011/03/12/making-crash-bandicoot-gool-part-9/ 21:01:01 pjb: I have read about Uncharted 2, yes. It's one of my inspirations. But they use continuations to do some stuff, and I'm avoiding to enter is this realm 21:01:23 -!- breakds [~breakds@cpe-74-79-147-26.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 21:01:42 -!- ahungry [~null@66.184.106.97] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:01:55 You don't need continuations. But you can dispatch and mix the code coming from various FSM to build the final event loop. 21:02:00 Continuations are great 21:03:32 hitecnologys: http://qt-project.org/doc/qt-4.8/qml-tutorial3.html 21:04:32 pjb: was GOOL made in CL? Wow, makes me wonder what went wrong (Uncharted 2 uses a Scheme) 21:04:52 Denommus: oh, wow, looks cool. 21:04:58 Denommus: allegro cl, iirc 21:06:30 pjb: if I understood it right, they really use lots of threads on this. Is this correct? 21:06:53 s0ber_ [~s0ber@114-25-206-208.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 21:07:52 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:08:31 Denommus: why do you need FSM-based language for a game? 21:08:53 -!- s0ber [~s0ber@1-164-210-203.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:08:59 -!- s0ber_ is now known as s0ber 21:09:04 -!- ncw [~ncw@host81-151-2-142.range81-151.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:10:00 -!- Patzy [~something@lns-bzn-51f-81-56-151-137.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:10:08 Patzy [~something@lns-bzn-51f-81-56-151-137.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 21:10:24 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@internet2.cznet.cz] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net] 21:11:43 -!- jlongster [~user@pool-96-238-181-209.rcmdva.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:11:57 soryy708 [~soryy708@IGLD-84-228-69-53.inter.net.il] has joined #lisp 21:12:03 hitecnologys: because a game is usually composed by lots of actors with different states that changes with different events. It's a great level of abstraction 21:12:12 Hello. 21:12:12 What is your opinion on Clozure CL? 21:12:57 soryy708: uh... it's a good implementation. But for what do you want to use it? 21:13:41 Denommus: Learning LisP. 21:13:49 Why the question? 21:14:47 soryy708: because specific implementations will often be used for specific purposes. For instance, I love SBCL, but I'm using ECL because it's easily embeddable 21:14:49 Denommus: oh, I usually use stacks for that. Actually, Microlang was developed for that purpose but then I accidentally reqlized that it's not DSL or something for game-scripting anymore. 21:15:07 -!- youlysses is now known as youlysses_zzz 21:15:28 People are talking about games... Hmm. 21:15:36 Quick crashcourse on the topic please? 21:15:49 soryy708: FSM-based DSL for game-scripting. 21:16:14 What is DSL? 21:16:28 soryy708: domain specific lang 21:16:34 soryy708: domain-specific language 21:16:35 Ah. 21:16:43 soryy708: you'll find this term a lot in lisp books and articles 21:17:13 soryy708: some of Lisp's power comes from the easiness of creating a DSL 21:17:16 Are you sure the FSM model has enough power to serve all game-scripting needs? 21:17:32 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-5f75dff3.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:17:36 -!- zacharias [~zacharias@unaffiliated/zacharias] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.2-dev] 21:17:41 Sure it has. You should only use it wisely. 21:17:52 mjs2600 [~mjs2600@user-0c999kc.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 21:18:17 How about "irregular languages"? 21:18:31 There are things that an FSM simply can't do, while a turing-machine can. 21:18:43 soryy708: that's a great question, and that's why I'm deciding to use Lisp instead of some specific DSL. If I ever need something besides FSM, I can simply make it. Lisp is extensible 21:19:29 I don't know how well would lisp function as a game-making language, but I'm willing to find out. 21:20:15 i dream of porting a game engine to cl :) 21:20:17 soryy708: FSM is useful, but I'm aware that it won't solve all my problems. It's just a nice abstraction for lots of situations I'm finding 21:20:51 Yeah. For some things, an FSM is awesome. 21:20:58 sid_cypher: I'm working on a game engine USING CL, and its advantages. Simply rewritting a game engine in CL would be a waste of language :) 21:21:04 But it can't be applied to EVERYTHING in a game. 21:21:18 soryy708: I'm not saying it is 21:21:37 Denommus: yeah, improving stuff is the next step in evolution :) 21:21:45 soryy708: Lisp is a great language for game-making, I came to Lisp from C-family langauges and I never thought that making games can be so awesome. In C it was like solving problems with pointers. 21:22:07 three-star programming :) 21:22:19 -!- dcooper8 [~dcooper8@c-98-250-10-50.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: dcooper8] 21:22:27 I come from C-land too. Up to this point, I know C C++ C# and Java. 21:22:41 I decided to learn Lisp because someone recommended me to learn something different from C. 21:22:48 the engine I'm working with is written in C++, so I embedded ECL in it. Some things are really boring to do in C++ 21:23:24 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-4d00336a.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 21:23:42 soryy708: cl is so flexible that you may end up writing C in lisp forms. might wanna try sml/ocaml and haskell, and then lisp) 21:23:56 is it a common practice to handle a *earme* dynamic binding, and to ease testing and some use cases to have (defun foo (&optional (earme *earme*)) ...) so that you can do (foo "plop") rather than (let ((*earme* "plop")) (foo))? 21:24:11 I'm willing to "temporatily forget" C in order to learn Lisp properly. 21:24:37 because then, you have to (declare (ignore *earme*)) if foo's definition happen not to use the binding directly but rather only call some other function... wait 21:24:41 I have my answer ;) 21:24:43 -!- hashcat [~m18@39.10.182.30] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:24:46 soryy708: I know Python, C(++), objc and can read Java and C# code. I just accidetally found out about Lisp on wikipedia while reading language comparison. =| 21:25:14 -!- sz0 [~user@94.55.194.230] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:25:34 i.e.: if foo makes no direct use of *earme* then there's no point in binding it to earme in the first place, you need to use that let form and that's it 21:25:56 I know C, C++, Java, C#, Javascript and Ruby. Before Lisp, Ruby was my favorite language 21:26:26 more, my &optional trick doesn't actually set *earme* so it's useless for what I wanted to use it for. 21:26:28 thanks ;) 21:26:42 I learned Lisp simply because someone said that finding parenthesis ugly is a silly reason to dislike a language 21:27:08 dim: ... you're aware that nobody said a thing, right? 21:27:21 dim: you could bind *earme* if you wanted to with &optional (*earme* default) 21:27:26 yes. sorry about that. I needed to say it out "loud" 21:27:35 Mine was Python, I even started writing a simple opengl game using it. 21:28:00 fortitude: I just want to simplify (let ((*earme* ...)) ...) in the REPL 21:28:10 -!- puchacz [~puchacz@46-65-36-47.zone16.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:28:12 dim: you need a rubber duck 21:28:30 yeah, or a cat, or a bear, etc 21:28:42 dim: nah, ducking is a meme 21:28:51 DeathByDoubleDip [~DeathByDo@157.254.210.32] has joined #lisp 21:28:54 duck debugging and such 21:29:07 not the same as duck typing 21:29:11 -!- knob [~knob@76.76.202.244] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:29:17 well I was actually referencing "Coders at Work" here, but as you want 21:29:37 dim: technically (defun foo (&optional (*earme* *earme*)) will let you optionally rebind *earme* 21:29:41 not too pretty, though 21:30:04 in "Coders at Work" Joe Armstrong practices rubber duck with a bear and another one that I don't remember the name of with his cats 21:30:25 fortitude: ah yeah. maybe what I wanted here in fact 21:30:27 dim: cool, nice to know 21:31:06 Does anyone know about DCPU-16? 21:31:53 -!- gendl [~gendl@c-98-250-10-50.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:32:18 -!- jrajav [~jrajav@198.179.137.210] has quit [Quit: phunq, sandwich store loop, WHAT NO UNIVERSE] 21:32:48 Sagane_ [~Sagane@177.100-226-89.dsl.completel.net] has joined #lisp 21:34:58 -!- Tribal [tribal@rcfreak0.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:35:35 -!- Sagane [~Sagane@177.100-226-89.dsl.completel.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:37:59 jlongster [~user@pool-96-238-181-209.rcmdva.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:38:02 hashcat [~m18@27.245.250.115] has joined #lisp 21:38:31 I know DCPU-16 21:38:49 hitrecnologys: What's your question? It's not lisp, it's somesort of Assembly 21:40:26 I just wanted to know if anyone ever tried to wrtie lisp compiler for this. This is the only guy who tried, but it looks like he abandoned the project: https://github.com/jlongster/dcpu-lisp 21:40:57 I tried too, but dumbped it to due to lack of knowledge and experience. 21:41:01 Writing a compiler in assembly. Heh :D 21:41:44 are there c compilers for that? could be the first step 21:42:00 Nope, writing compiler in lisp or something to compile Lisp to DCPU-16 assembly. 21:42:11 And then compile compiler. 21:42:23 lol ok 21:42:27 Good point 21:42:31 And then conquer the world. 21:42:52 That's like my plan for today. 21:43:12 Want help? 21:43:56 Nope, I pretty sure I can deal with this by myself. vim compiler.lispiOkay... what's next... 21:44:04 s/I/I'm/ 21:44:14 Juanito-Jons [~jreynoso@201.164.190.106] has joined #lisp 21:44:23 fisxoj [~fisxoj@c-24-12-190-29.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:45:13 -!- wheelsucker [~user@168.114.240.151] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:45:15 Actually, I wouldn't mind some help. 21:45:28 Okay 21:45:30 I don't know Lisp though 21:45:35 Want some help with the DCPU16 part? 21:45:43 bitonic` [~user@2.124.93.36] has joined #lisp 21:46:13 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-163-178.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:46:43 -!- jlongster [~user@pool-96-238-181-209.rcmdva.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 21:46:46 I kinda know assemble, but if someone implement stdlib for me that would be nice. I have some sketches of syntax parser somewhere, I'm going to search for them later. And we need someone familiar with GC and stuff. 21:47:30 Implement stdlib in what language? 21:47:46 What is GC? 21:47:47 In DCPU16 assembly I think. 21:48:02 soryy708: garbage collector 21:48:16 I could implement some stdlib in DCPU16. Not all of it, but I could try implementing what isn't trivial. 21:48:26 Tribal [~Tribal@rcfreak0.com] has joined #lisp 21:48:53 I need memory management, arithmetics and some baic logic first. 21:49:14 s/baic/basic/ 21:49:21 From the stdlib? 21:50:51 hitecnologys Answer my question please. 21:51:56 Probably we could create our brand new stdlib with allocate-memory and free-memory but for now, yes, from stdlib. 21:51:57 hitecnologys: I wrote this 1-hour rubbish some years ago http://paste.lisp.org/display/137820 21:52:39 adeht: your rubbish looks exactly like mine, except that I spend 3 days. 21:52:52 Okay, I could implement stuff like that in DCPU16. 21:52:58 You've got anything pidgin supports? 21:53:15 -!- statl [~statl@dslb-094-218-017-203.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 21:53:18 hitecnologys: well by 1-hour I mean "max 1-hour" :)... I wrote it after spending a few hours writing https://gist.github.com/death/2316075 21:53:25 hitecnologys: Have you got Gmail? Or Skype? 21:53:47 soryy708: I have jabber, skype and email. Which one you prefer? 21:54:39 hitecnologys: Good question. If you've got a gmail acc, I could talk to you through pidgin. If we use Skype, we could use VOIP. 21:54:44 hitecnologys: Your call. 21:54:49 hitecnologys: I mean, you chose. 21:55:00 adeht: oh, I tried to write emulator too but I dropped it after (defparameter *instructions* lotsofstuffscrewthis). 21:55:39 soryy708: I prefer jabber because I'm bad at talking in English, I'm Russian. =( 21:56:00 -!- bitonic` [~user@2.124.93.36] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:56:19 I was born on the territory of Ukraine and I speak Russian fluently. 21:56:34 *sid_cypher* is russian as well 21:56:35 soryy708: did you check the slides and the article? 21:56:57 Denommus: Err, No? What slide and article? 21:57:12 hitecnologys: So what's your final choice? 21:57:18 http://all-things-andy-gavin.com/2011/03/12/making-crash-bandicoot-gool-part-9/ and http://www.slideshare.net/naughty_dog/statebased-scripting-in-uncharted-2-among-thieves 21:57:20 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:57:39 soryy708: then we can skype, the same nick. 21:59:08 -!- fortitude [~mts@rrcs-24-97-165-124.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:59:39 Skype is being an idiot. 21:59:41 It's slooow 22:00:34 i've read that they went away from being p2p to MS-server-centric 22:01:07 -!- soryy708 [~soryy708@IGLD-84-228-69-53.inter.net.il] has left #lisp 22:01:23 to support mobile phones and to control us and gather our data better) 22:02:03 -!- ehu` [~ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [] 22:03:03 sid_cypher: they did. People suspect it has something related to PRISM 22:03:56 davazp [~user@79.Red-79-153-96.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 22:04:06 sid_cypher: nope, it's still mostrly p2p but they listed chats for sure because they send HEAD requests to links we post. 22:05:05 prism or no prism, me and some of my friends are switching towards google hangouts 22:05:15 -!- lkjh_ [~lkjh@170.20.11.31] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:06:19 google hangouts changed from a open to a close protocol 22:06:31 I'm actually more confident in Trillian, which opened their protocol recently 22:07:11 Denommus: true, at least the chat moving away from full XMPP afaik. still better than what MS has. 22:08:28 you only need it for video anyway, chat is still jabber. 22:08:50 -!- nyef [~nyef@c-50-157-244-41.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: G'night all.] 22:10:04 Denommus: reading the slides with the FSM DSL, cool stuff, looks great 22:10:26 I'm moving to jabber but most of people I talk with use skype, so... 22:12:41 sid_cypher: yes, I want to make something similar, but I think I'm doing it wrong 22:12:44 Sagane__ [~Sagane@177.100-226-89.dsl.completel.net] has joined #lisp 22:14:52 -!- hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@46.233.229.30] has quit [Quit: zzz] 22:14:55 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@173-228-44-92.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:15:36 -!- Sagane_ [~Sagane@177.100-226-89.dsl.completel.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:17:13 -!- foom [jknight@nat/google/x-zojxhvssgixsjzey] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:18:16 Denommus: is a classic talk on using macros to develop an FSM DSL. 22:19:04 breakds [~breakds@cpe-74-79-147-26.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:20:24 jrajav [~jrajav@71-82-124-223.dhcp.roch.mn.charter.com] has joined #lisp 22:21:26 msmith1 [~msmit297@23.31.147.162] has joined #lisp 22:23:19 -!- ejohnson [~Thunderbi@c-67-181-201-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 22:24:05 -!- xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.224.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:24:16 -!- paddymahoney [~patrick@24.137.221.230] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:24:42 pkhuong: I'll check it out, thanks 22:25:46 -!- breakds [~breakds@cpe-74-79-147-26.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:26:01 Hi all, I wrote a simple macro which contains the format function, but when I run it I get Undefined variable format. The package uses cl-user, so I am trying to think of what the problem is. Any thoughts? 22:26:31 msmith1: the symbol FORMAT sounds like it is not in the function position. 22:26:42 msmith1: paste the code on paste.lisp.org for potentially more insight. 22:27:02 msmith1: you're dealing with a Lisp-2, not a Lisp-1. If you're getting "undefined variable", it's because you're trying to access it as a variable, not as a function. Try to sharp-quote it 22:28:07 -!- natechan [~natechan@50-192-61-45-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]] 22:28:40 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-139-110.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:28:55 -!- davazp [~user@79.Red-79-153-96.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:29:21 -!- victor_lowther [~victorlow@143.166.116.80] has quit [Quit: Leaving IRC - dircproxy 1.2.0] 22:31:01 -!- banjara [~Adium@unaffiliated/banjara] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:31:33 Xach Denommus: http://paste.lisp.org/+2YCD 22:32:41 breakds [~breakds@cpe-74-79-147-26.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:32:51 msmith1: the syntax for cond is wrong 22:33:40 Could use a WHEN perhaps. 22:33:55 it should be (cond ((gethash word dic) (format t "element is ~a" word))) 22:34:03 but yes, it could be replaced by a when 22:34:27 (when (gethash word dic) (format t "element is ~a" word)) 22:38:18 chu [~user@unaffiliated/chu] has joined #lisp 22:38:33 Denommus: thanks for catching that 22:39:05 Denommus: you understood wrong. They use 0 thread. The trick is to move around chunks of code at macro expansion time, instead of relying on a kernel to interrupt control flow at run-time. 22:40:18 Adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 22:40:23 (macroexpand '(in-parallel (progn (print 1) (print 2)) (progn (print 'a) (print 'b))) ) --> (progn (print 1) (print 'a) (print 2) (pring 'b)) ; or some other order, instead of (progn (make-thread (lambda () (progn (print 1) (print 2)))) (make-thread (lambda () (progn (print 'a) (print 'b))))). 22:41:15 Denommus: and in the case of crashbanditcot, they actually had something like: (macroexpand '(in-parallel (progn (print 1) (print 2)) (progn (print 'a) (print 'b))) ) --> (progn (print 1) (task-to-do-periodically) (print 'a) (print 2) (task-to-do-periodically) (pring 'b)) 22:41:17 pjb: I'm still wondering how exactly I will store the various possible states of various possible agents. I'm thinking about using a hash-table, but it seems an ugly solution 22:41:31 since one can compute how much time a function call will talke. 22:41:50 Denommus: this is entirely irrelevant. Just abstract it away! 22:42:39 pjb: hm. Yes, I think I should 22:43:38 -!- impulse [~impulse@65.95.105.59] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:44:51 I'd really like to discuss this more further with somebody that made something similar 22:44:59 because I have lots of doubts 22:45:32 Denommus: the point is that you can do whatever you want with the expressions you're given into y our dfa macro. 22:45:39 It's up to you. 22:46:00 -!- mjs2600 [~mjs2600@user-0c999kc.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:48:22 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@c-24-12-190-29.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:55:50 BitPuffin [~quassel@s193-13-104-175.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 22:59:35 -!- syrinxHupItalia [~quassel@unaffiliated/syrinx-/x-4255893] has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.] 22:59:56 pjb: but if I want something more "scripted", like Uncharted 2, I need asynchronous operations, right? 22:59:59 syrinx [~quassel@ip68-1-175-223.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 22:59:59 -!- syrinx [~quassel@ip68-1-175-223.ri.ri.cox.net] has quit [Changing host] 22:59:59 syrinx [~quassel@unaffiliated/syrinx-/x-4255893] has joined #lisp 23:03:51 svs_ [~svs@71-222-229-81.albq.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 23:04:41 -!- svs__ [~svs@71-213-143-249.albq.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 23:07:43 Kruppe [~user@CPE602ad0938e9a-CM602ad0938e97.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 23:09:10 -!- svs_ [~svs@71-222-229-81.albq.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:09:20 zophy [goldenligh@gateway/shell/devio.us/x-pptsbbfplfvhuzwg] has joined #lisp 23:12:07 MoALTz_ [~no@host86-142-160-187.range86-142.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 23:13:15 -!- hashcat [~m18@27.245.250.115] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 23:14:53 -!- MoALTz [~no@host86-142-160-187.range86-142.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:15:56 -!- Denommus [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/denommus] has quit [Quit: going home] 23:19:57 -!- Juanito-Jons [~jreynoso@201.164.190.106] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 23:26:44 svs_ [~svs@71-222-232-183.albq.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 23:30:51 -!- mgile [~mgile@74-92-220-177-Colorado.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Parting is such sweet sorrow...] 23:34:00 -!- Corvidium [~cosman246@D-173-250-158-23.dhcp4.washington.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:34:19 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-71-237-234-63.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:34:38 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-71-237-234-63.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:39:41 DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@120.159.218.175] has joined #lisp 23:39:58 -!- zophy [goldenligh@gateway/shell/devio.us/x-pptsbbfplfvhuzwg] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 23:41:09 zolk3ri [~zolk3ri@unaffiliated/zolk3ri] has joined #lisp 23:43:17 -!- jrajav [~jrajav@71-82-124-223.dhcp.roch.mn.charter.com] has quit [Quit: phunq, sandwich store loop, WHAT NO UNIVERSE] 23:54:31 -!- msmith1 [~msmit297@23.31.147.162] has left #lisp 23:58:18 bitonic` [~user@2.124.93.36] has joined #lisp