00:00:58 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@d205-250-223-135.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:01:53 -!- jackdaniel [~jack@c65-85.icpnet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:03:27 paddymahoney [~patrick@198-84-186-52.cpe.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 00:03:50 -!- tankrim` is now known as tankrim 00:04:29 Lefeni [~Lefeni@c-d24be555.143-16-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 00:25:04 -!- arrsim [~user@mail.fitness2live.com.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:28:17 -!- banjara [~Adium@unaffiliated/banjara] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:29:53 Corvidium [~cosman246@nat60-100.net.kcls.org] has joined #lisp 00:31:37 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@c-24-12-190-29.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:37:03 -!- hwiersma [~hwiersma@S0106602ad08e475a.ok.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:37:29 -!- leo2007 [~leo@182.48.101.29] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:38:16 foreignFunction [~niksaak@ip-4761.sunline.net.ua] has joined #lisp 00:38:57 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@95.35.54.125] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 00:40:23 -!- Bike [~Glossina@67-5-229-86.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:41:14 hashcat [~m18@27.242.139.54] has joined #lisp 00:41:44 leo2007 [~leo@182.48.101.29] has joined #lisp 00:42:11 Bike [~Glossina@67-5-229-86.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 00:43:12 Z_Mass [~zmassia@64.229.234.19] has joined #lisp 00:43:52 -!- Thra11 [~Thra11@87.114.35.246] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:45:37 -!- harish [~harish@cm32.zeta224.maxonline.com.sg] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:46:58 hwiersma [~hwiersma@d50-92-237-119.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 00:48:55 -!- pavelpenev [~quassel@85.130.70.65] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:50:41 banjara [~Adium@unaffiliated/banjara] has joined #lisp 00:54:30 -!- davazp [~user@79.Red-79-153-96.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:54:57 hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@46.233.223.166] has joined #lisp 00:56:53 -!- Dalek_Baldwin [~Adium@108-225-26-178.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:59:55 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.164.190.39] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:01:03 -!- Corvidium [~cosman246@nat60-100.net.kcls.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:02:47 lyanchih [~lyanchih@118-163-141-228.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 01:03:19 -!- zolk3ri [~zolk3ri@unaffiliated/zolk3ri] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:03:52 -!- boogie [~boogie@wsip-98-172-168-236.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:03:53 -!- breakds [~breakds@cpe-74-79-147-26.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:04:31 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-133-142.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:05:48 -!- foreignFunction [~niksaak@ip-4761.sunline.net.ua] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:08:00 drmeister [~drmeister@d205-250-223-135.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 01:09:24 -!- josemanuel [~josemanue@48.228.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: Saliendo] 01:10:14 I fixed my TAGBODY/GO implementation in my Common Lisp S-expression walking interpreter and while I was thinking about it I'm starting to think it would be a good idea to add a second pass to my compiler that pre-processes the S-expressions to make it easier for the code-generator. 01:10:19 Dalek_Baldwin [~Adium@71-84-34-33.dhcp.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has joined #lisp 01:11:05 How is that done usually? Is it that simple, just feed each REPL form to a preprocessor that returns a modified form and compile that? 01:12:02 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 01:13:32 it's usually easier to do with a specialised intermediate representation. pure source-to-source transformations on sexps tend to make things slow, buggy, hard to debug, and to result in code that's extra hard to debug if the transforms do succeed. 01:13:35 mjs2600 [~mjs2600@user-0c999kc.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 01:13:51 I was thinking of converting (GO xxx) expressions into (LOCAL-GO xxx) and (DYNAMIC-GO xxx) based on whether the (GO xxx) was inside of a (FUNCTION ...) special form where the TAGBODY tag is in a TAGBODY that encompasses the (FUNCTION ...) special form. 01:14:23 What does the intermediate representation consist of? Structures and Classes? 01:14:50 sure. 01:15:35 Right now I have LLVM-IR code being generated directly from S-expressions. 01:15:46 DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has joined #lisp 01:15:53 -!- honkfestival [~honkfesti@198-84-183-94.cpe.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: honkfestival] 01:17:02 Ok so Sexp --> intermediate representation in CL structures --> LLVM-IR - does that sound about right? 01:18:33 That's going to mean writing another compiler - sheesh. 01:19:31 Do any implementations ever mix S-expressions and structures? 01:23:18 ckoch786_ [~quassel@cpe-98-27-140-191.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:24:10 drmeister: are you writing your own CL compiler? 01:26:43 -!- hwiersma [~hwiersma@d50-92-237-119.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:26:45 fisxoj [~fisxoj@c-24-12-190-29.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:27:41 -!- leo2007 [~leo@182.48.101.29] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.3.1] 01:29:14 jleija [~jleija@50.8.41.50] has joined #lisp 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banjara [~Adium@unaffiliated/banjara] has quit [Client Quit] 02:47:02 banjara [~Adium@unaffiliated/banjara] has joined #lisp 02:49:37 -!- s00pcan [~chris@108-208-64-149.lightspeed.livnmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 02:52:47 s00pcan [~chris@108-208-64-149.lightspeed.livnmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:54:12 -!- lyanchih [~lyanchih@118-163-141-228.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Quit: lyanchih] 02:56:34 breakds [~breakds@cpe-74-79-147-26.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:57:49 -!- banjara [~Adium@unaffiliated/banjara] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:58:12 -!- breakds [~breakds@cpe-74-79-147-26.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 02:58:23 banjara [~Adium@unaffiliated/banjara] has joined #lisp 02:59:59 -!- natechan [~natechan@c-71-56-124-186.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]] 03:02:34 hitecnologys: I've written my own CL compiler - yes. 03:02:46 lyanchih [~lyanchih@118-163-141-228.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 03:04:11 drmeister: cool, I tried to write my own too in order to compile lisp code to 65C02 instructions but dumped it because it was too hard for me. 03:05:15 It is hard - it's required a couple of years of work. 03:08:20 I'm using LLVM as the back-end, the low-level functionality is written in C++ and I'm maintaining interoperability with C++. 03:08:33 sure it's hard, maybe I'll try it again when I grow up a bit 03:09:40 It is a lot of fun though and very, very educational. 03:10:01 drmeister: I thought about using LLVM but for some reason (which I obviously don't remember) I didn't use it. 03:10:27 It's great - it's very well thought out. 03:10:45 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@1.130.100.11] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 03:11:25 -!- banjara [~Adium@unaffiliated/banjara] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:11:43 banjara [~Adium@unaffiliated/banjara] has joined #lisp 03:11:50 drmeister: I learned lots of things about optimization algorithms and processor architecture so this wasn't waste of time for sure, maybe I'll try to rewrite it to support LLVM some time in the future 03:12:33 -!- stardiviner_ [~quassel@122.236.245.78] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:13:19 fridim_ [~fridim@65.93.78.88] has joined #lisp 03:14:47 bbl 03:16:04 bye 03:17:50 -!- banjara [~Adium@unaffiliated/banjara] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:19:34 banjara [~Adium@unaffiliated/banjara] has joined #lisp 03:20:16 -!- ianmcorvidae|alt is now known as ianmcorvidae 03:20:30 -!- adnap [~adnap@cpe-70-112-164-154.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:20:30 -!- rme [~rme@50.43.166.21] has quit [Quit: rme] 03:20:44 adnap [~adnap@cpe-70-112-164-154.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:21:33 loke [~loke@203.127.16.194] has joined #lisp 03:24:50 Myk267 [~myk@unaffiliated/myk267] has joined #lisp 03:27:03 -!- banjara [~Adium@unaffiliated/banjara] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:27:27 -!- z0d [~z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 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[~naeg@170-18-182-46.NbIServ.com] has joined #lisp 07:11:35 ph88 [2e2c9618@gateway/web/freenode/ip.46.44.150.24] has joined #lisp 07:11:48 did anyone see anatov_ ? 07:12:59 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@2.55.140.53] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 07:15:22 Joreji [~thomas@134.61.161.93] has joined #lisp 07:18:41 spearalot [~maca@194.218.229.107] has joined #lisp 07:18:44 oudeis [~oudeis@95.35.61.6] has joined #lisp 07:18:46 -!- ehaliewicz [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has left #lisp 07:19:04 joshe [~joshe@216.151.3.96] has joined #lisp 07:21:15 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-44-12.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:22:28 ehu [~Erik@31.136.188.196] has joined #lisp 07:23:43 -!- joshe [~joshe@216.151.3.96] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:23:59 joshe [~joshe@216.151.3.96] has joined #lisp 07:25:22 -!- Bike [~Glossina@67-5-229-86.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:27:39 mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.96.99] has joined #lisp 07:28:21 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@95.35.61.6] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 07:32:22 mikecsh [~mikecsh@87.244.76.226] has joined #lisp 07:32:40 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@107.200.11.156] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:33:13 slyrus [~chatzilla@107.200.11.156] has joined #lisp 07:36:42 ;Good morning! 07:38:02 drmeister: hey! how is the compiler working out? 07:39:50 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:40:01 xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.224.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 07:40:46 -!- ejohnson [~Thunderbi@c-67-181-201-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:42:35 chu [~user@unaffiliated/chu] has joined #lisp 07:44:05 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f754c09.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 07:46:23 -!- dented42 [~dented42@opengroove.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:47:47 -!- lyanchih [~lyanchih@118.163.141.228] has quit [Quit: lyanchih] 07:47:55 hashcat [~m18@27.242.139.54] has joined #lisp 07:48:52 lyanchih [~lyanchih@202.39.219.19] has joined #lisp 07:50:26 kiuma [~kiuma@78-134-94-45.v4.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 07:51:32 dented42 [~dented42@opengroove.org] has joined #lisp 07:54:16 -!- guther [guther@shell.bshellz.net] has quit [K-Lined] 07:54:20 -!- aqil [~aqil@91.191.200.140] has quit [Quit:     (xchat 2.4.5  )] 07:54:53 jewel [~jewel@105-236-178-139.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 07:55:51 -!- fe[nl]ix [~quassel@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 07:58:23 hkBst [~marijn@80.120.175.18] has joined #lisp 07:58:23 -!- hkBst [~marijn@80.120.175.18] has quit [Changing host] 07:58:23 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 08:00:23 aqil [~aqil@91.191.200.140] has joined #lisp 08:03:16 fe[nl]ix [~quassel@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 08:03:22 statl [~statl@dslb-094-218-016-198.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 08:08:26 -!- alama 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geehrte Frau Notzon, 08:48:11 bitte verkaufen Sie $7.100 zu Lasten meines Kontos 0900933664. Den 08:48:11 Euro-Betrag schreiben Sie bitte meinem Konto 143981755 bei 66010075 08:48:11 gut. 08:48:14 Bitte bestätigen Sie mir die Transaktion per Email. 08:48:19 Mit bestem Dank und freundlichen Grüßen, 08:48:22 kacke 08:49:06 aha. 08:49:29 apologies. i hate the clipboard. 08:49:36 :) 08:51:20 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@95.35.54.98] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 08:51:40 robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:53:25 teggi [~teggi@123.20.107.130] has joined #lisp 08:53:30 -!- przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 08:55:15 -!- dtw [~dtw@pdpc/supporter/active/dtw] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 08:55:16 apparently it also goes the other way round ;) 08:56:19 now i need to find out how to clear the clipboard automatically. finally. enough of this sensitive information pasting. sorry for ot :) 08:58:39 przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has joined #lisp 08:58:56 othar [user@nat/google/x-ilwzbjhcrbmsqzgx] has joined #lisp 08:59:38 -!- lyanchih [~lyanchih@202.39.219.19] has quit [Quit: lyanchih] 09:07:01 BlankVerse [~pankajm@dhcp140.dmi.ens.fr] has joined #lisp 09:08:30 it was probably asked before, but i get "Unable to load foreign library (LIBSSL)" when Quicklisp tries to load cl+ssl (Windows 2008 Server) 09:12:53 hajovonta: do you have openssl installed in a system-wide library location? 09:13:11 umm.. no. 09:13:29 but i'm adventurous and try to install it. 09:13:31 pavelpenev [~quassel@85.130.70.65] has joined #lisp 09:19:49 -!- Odyessus [~odyessus@089144192070.atnat0001.highway.a1.net] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi] 09:21:30 stepnem [~stepnem@internet2.cznet.cz] has joined #lisp 09:22:20 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@dhcp140.dmi.ens.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:23:32 ok, i installed it. how can i force quicklisp to re-fetch and reload cl+ssl? 09:23:57 why re-fetch it? just restart the lisp and load cl+ssl again 09:24:06 ok. 09:25:15 BlankVerse [~pankajm@dhcp140.dmi.ens.fr] has joined #lisp 09:27:22 i'm not sure... 09:29:26 how can i try it? 09:29:34 try what? 09:29:40 ok, nevermind, i go and read an introductory material. 09:29:41 :) 09:29:51 try hunchentoot with ssl support 09:30:48 as a first step, reading the manual won't hurt 09:31:30 sure :) 09:31:50 -!- Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:32:19 hajovonta: http://comments.gmane.org/gmane.lisp.lib.tbnl.general/3501 might help 09:33:05 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 09:33:52 thanks 09:34:27 oudeis [~oudeis@62-90-110-122.barak.net.il] has joined #lisp 09:34:27 -!- ferada [~ferada@37.221.196.86] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 09:35:19 -!- leo2007 [~leo@182.48.101.29] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:35:53 ferada [~ferada@37.221.196.86] has joined #lisp 09:37:32 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:39:30 mmm. I'm adding a (break) in a function definition I'm editing, use C-M-x to reload/recompile the function definition, then in the SLIME REPL I use it, but the break call is ignored, as if I didn't C-M-x... any idea? should I try to turn it off and on again? 09:47:11 ok. was using a let instead of a let* and was blind to it. 09:51:34 dlowe [dlowe@digital.sanctuary.org] has joined #lisp 09:51:42 rvirding [uid5943@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-vohmvrqiqsqtkxsr] has joined #lisp 09:51:53 nicdev [user@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:4986] has joined #lisp 09:58:26 -!- Dalek_Baldwin [~Adium@71-84-34-33.dhcp.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:59:07 iglu [~nick@203-59-240-52.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 10:01:30 Cymew [~user@fw01d.snowmen.se] has joined #lisp 10:06:28 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@62-90-110-122.barak.net.il] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 10:13:43 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-174-40.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:15:53 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-1-78.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 10:15:54 oudeis [~oudeis@95.35.61.220] has joined #lisp 10:18:40 -!- ehu [~Erik@31.136.188.196] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:18:46 ehu` [~Erik@31.136.188.196] has joined #lisp 10:20:34 HDurer [~user@pdpc/supporter/active/hdurer] has joined #lisp 10:21:03 -!- zacharias [~zacharias@unaffiliated/zacharias] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.2-dev] 10:22:51 fridim_ [~fridim@65.93.78.88] has joined #lisp 10:23:58 -!- chu [~user@unaffiliated/chu] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 10:23:59 -!- ehu` [~Erik@31.136.188.196] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:24:15 ehu [~Erik@31.136.188.196] has joined #lisp 10:25:06 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@95.35.61.220] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 10:35:26 -!- ehu [~Erik@31.136.188.196] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:35:30 ehu` [~Erik@31.136.188.196] has joined #lisp 10:35:41 spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 10:38:08 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-176-213.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 10:38:31 -!- przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:39:53 -!- trebor_d` [~user@153.96.244.202] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:41:25 zRecursive [~czsq888@110.188.65.82] has joined #lisp 10:41:40 -!- Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:44:10 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@233.206-244-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 10:44:11 -!- Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@233.206-244-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Changing host] 10:44:11 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 10:44:45 oudeis [~oudeis@bzq-218-0-98.cablep.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 10:46:32 -!- easye` [~user@213.33.70.157] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:46:32 calm day here ... 10:48:14 trebor_d` [~user@153.96.244.202] has joined #lisp 10:48:43 easye` [~user@213.33.70.157] has joined #lisp 10:48:50 anyone tried mocl? 10:50:12 Sagane [~Sagane@177.100-226-89.dsl.completel.net] has joined #lisp 10:53:12 -!- statl [~statl@dslb-094-218-016-198.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 10:54:24 foreignFunction [~niksaak@ip-4761.sunline.net.ua] has joined #lisp 10:54:57 -!- trebor_d` [~user@153.96.244.202] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 10:55:22 milanj [~milanj@cable-94-189-145-213.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 10:56:41 zacharias [~zacharias@unaffiliated/zacharias] has joined #lisp 10:58:07 -!- aqil [~aqil@91.191.200.140] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:58:45 lyanchih [~lyanchih@202.39.219.19] has joined #lisp 11:00:30 smull [~smull@port-212-202-120-50.static.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 11:02:16 aqil [~aqil@94.20.249.191] has joined #lisp 11:05:21 -!- smull [~smull@port-212-202-120-50.static.qsc.de] has quit [Client Quit] 11:05:21 -!- foreignFunction [~niksaak@ip-4761.sunline.net.ua] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:05:46 Thra11 [~Thra11@10.38.113.87.dyn.plus.net] has joined #lisp 11:08:08 smull [~smull@port-212-202-120-50.static.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 11:13:35 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:13:55 foreignFunction [~niksaak@ip-4761.sunline.net.ua] has joined #lisp 11:17:14 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@bzq-218-0-98.cablep.bezeqint.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 11:17:45 oudeis [~oudeis@bzq-218-0-98.cablep.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 11:20:26 harish [~harish@cm32.zeta224.maxonline.com.sg] has joined #lisp 11:21:33 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Excess Flood] 11:22:28 Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 11:28:03 trebor_d` [~user@153.96.244.202] has joined #lisp 11:28:41 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f754c09.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 11:29:19 not yet 11:29:50 -!- lyanchih [~lyanchih@202.39.219.19] has quit [Quit: lyanchih] 11:29:52 dtw [~dtw@pdpc/supporter/active/dtw] has joined #lisp 11:31:58 zhangyh26258 [~Kangaroo@114.96.161.178] has joined #lisp 11:35:05 -!- aqil [~aqil@94.20.249.191] has quit [Quit:     (xchat 2.4.5  )] 11:35:39 lyanchih [~lyanchih@118-163-141-228.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 11:37:46 -!- easye` [~user@213.33.70.157] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 11:37:49 xecycle [~user@59.78.37.25] has joined #lisp 11:38:14 easye [~user@213.33.70.157] has joined #lisp 11:39:41 I think I found a bug in antik, but have no idea of how to report it. I saw no email addresses given, nor any bug tracker set up; is the maintainer here? 11:41:15 Hmm. Can't seem to commit to Slime CVS. Anybody have a link to recipe for using SSH keys with CVS? 11:42:09 Huh ignore me. Found it on the common-lisp.net project page. 11:44:31 -!- zRecursive [~czsq888@110.188.65.82] has left #lisp 11:49:05 -!- lyanchih [~lyanchih@118-163-141-228.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Quit: lyanchih] 11:49:12 Alright: CVS_RSH='ssh' and use ":ext" instead of ":pserver" in the CVS root 11:50:17 lyanchih [~lyanchih@118-163-141-228.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 11:50:35 zolk3ri [~zolk3ri@unaffiliated/zolk3ri] has joined #lisp 11:50:46 statl [~statl@dslb-094-218-017-203.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 11:51:01 PuercoPop [~user@pool-96-250-219-190.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 11:51:16 does anyone of you know a book or blog giving examples of tree rotation for immutable data structures? 11:51:28 -!- Blkt` is now known as Blkt 11:51:29 Blkt` any basic cs book? 11:51:36 not so basic I suppose 11:51:50 all the basic books I found gave examples of mutable data structures 11:51:57 C/C++ style 11:53:27 Blkt: have you tried the "Inmutable datastructeres" book? 11:53:43 -!- brendyn [brendyn@2400:8900::f03c:91ff:fedf:65b4] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:54:14 let me google it 11:55:11 Haim Kaplan? 11:55:21 brendyn [brendyn@2400:8900::f03c:91ff:fedf:65b4] has joined #lisp 11:55:31 -!- ehu` [~Erik@31.136.188.196] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:55:38 no 11:55:42 http://www.amazon.com/Purely-Functional-Structures-Chris-Okasaki/dp/0521663504/ref=cm_cmu_up_add_glance 11:55:47 ah yes 11:56:05 Yeah it should have tree rotation as it includes red-black trees 11:56:18 I'll take a look at it 11:57:43 -!- dtw [~dtw@pdpc/supporter/active/dtw] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 12:02:30 -!- lyanchih [~lyanchih@118-163-141-228.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Quit: lyanchih] 12:03:51 -!- zhangyh26258 [~Kangaroo@114.96.161.178] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:06:21 PuercoPop: found it, thanks 12:11:23 Blkt: a pdf? 12:12:23 xecycle: one option is to check it out from git and look for email addresses in the commit log 12:13:32 PuercoPop: a friend, why? 12:13:33 Xach: Well yes you are right; after all I found it, thank you. 12:14:02 -!- milanj [~milanj@cable-94-189-145-213.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 12:14:33 ok, good good 12:14:38 it's liamh, right? 12:14:48 *Xach* lost track 12:15:32 prw [~chatzilla@87-57-209-106-static.dk.customer.tdc.net] has joined #lisp 12:16:56 -!- srikumar_ [~srikumar@220.227.95.85] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:17:35 Yes. 12:18:08 mjs2600 [~mjs2600@24.106.194.14] has joined #lisp 12:18:17 the mailing lists at common-lisp.net are down. Is there somewhere else to report bugs fro drakma? 12:18:36 Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 12:18:59 hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@46.233.223.166] has joined #lisp 12:19:30 prw: What indicates to you that the lists are down? 12:20:37 the archives are not working afaik ... 12:20:38 -!- youlysses [~user@75-132-28-10.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:20:56 following http://common-lisp.net/mailman/listinfo/drakma-devel gives me a 404 12:21:32 Does lool take :keyword arguments? if :if/:do? I'm reading cl-orgmode's source code and found them 12:21:32 Hello everybody! 12:21:47 Xach: the links are always broken 12:22:08 The web side is broken, but email should work. 12:22:09 Although through gmane I've managed to see the lists are up 12:23:18 prw: as PuercoPop suggests, it's worth trying to reach the list via gmane 12:23:21 PuercoPop: the symbols used as syntax in LOOP can come from any package, or no pacakge. 12:23:32 BitPuffin [~quassel@s193-13-104-175.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 12:23:50 They are used only for the string that is their name 12:24:25 ok thanks 12:24:52 whitedawg [~whitedawg@122.179.60.207] has joined #lisp 12:24:53 someone should fix the web page ... 12:25:50 Ryxai [~Whitewolf@ool-457a9364.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 12:29:03 -!- prw [~chatzilla@87-57-209-106-static.dk.customer.tdc.net] has left #lisp 12:29:15 I made this: http://www.hajovonta.com:18225/ and i'm looking for a better place for it. 12:33:14 breakds [~breakds@cpe-74-79-147-26.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:33:44 lkjh_ [~lkjh@170.20.11.31] has joined #lisp 12:34:32 hajovonta: I can provide you host with ssh access for some time, just promise me that you won't mine litecoins on it. 12:35:05 zorkmoid: fixing it has become a tedious mess at the moment. maybe it will get better. 12:35:54 hitecnologys: lol. ofcourse not :-) i dont have bitcoins. 12:36:06 Xach: ah si it is just a convention the developer or cl-orgmode chose, good to know 12:36:24 hitecnologys: thank you in advance! 12:36:33 hajovonta: just keep in mind that I usually sleep about 4 hours per day so I'll notice high loads immediately 12:37:11 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 12:37:28 hitecnologys: i am more concerned of network bandwidth... i can't estimate how many users are interested in this. 12:37:35 -!- Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:37:38 just thought it might help some people 12:38:06 hajovonta: I can handle up to about 100 clients at the same time with experiencing any serious connection problems 12:38:26 hajovonta: however, ping could raise upto 200ms because it's Russia 12:38:49 przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has joined #lisp 12:38:51 PuercoPop, if you pay attention, by the way, there's a keyword/no-keyword-in-LOOP about every other day in here. 12:39:08 LOOP argument* 12:39:38 hajovonta: I'm going to shut everything down for some service work at 23:00+7 for about 3 hours and then I'll tell you account data 12:39:53 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 12:39:59 gmt+7 ? 12:40:18 hajovonta: yep, but I prefer utc+7. 12:41:40 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-44-12.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 12:41:44 hajovonta: I just need to update kernel do some hardware upgrades and clean the dust so it won't take long 12:41:58 hitecnologys: sounds good. i may be not here at this time, but you can leave me email or wait for me to show up at evening 12:42:30 Quadrescence: :O haven't seen them yet. I've been warned to never critize the loop statement though 12:42:34 hajovonta: I can wait, I'm now completely free, it's summer holidays! 12:42:43 hitecnologys: :) 12:43:12 PuercoPop, If you want to stay safe, just advocate for keywords in LOOP. ;) 12:44:26 sdemarre [~serge@91.180.80.126] has joined #lisp 12:45:44 srikumar [~srikumar@220.227.95.85] has joined #lisp 12:46:36 Quadrescence: I think I'm still for from having something to say on any matter regarding CL 12:47:25 Having nothing to say has not historically been a barrier to commentary on CL. 12:48:16 Xach, oh you! 12:49:40 jaja, Well still, I'm going to focus on listening for the time being. 12:50:44 it doesn't seem to stop some people :) 12:51:50 *Quadrescence* thinks he will continue trying to work out how to implement jump tables. 12:52:46 I hope when you are done you will name it either cl-houseofpain or cl-kriskross 12:52:59 :))) 12:53:56 -!- PuercoPop [~user@pool-96-250-219-190.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:54:43 I got as far as implementing them (to be clear, I define a jump table as O(1) dynamic dispatch to code based off of a run-time value), but they don't have lexical scope (or specifically, can't refer to the lexical environment), which means they're useless 12:55:36 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.180.80.126] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:56:54 bananagram [~bot@173-16-109-35.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 12:58:07 -!- hashcat [~m18@27.242.139.54] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:58:12 -!- mjs2600 [~mjs2600@24.106.194.14] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:59:06 -!- Sagane [~Sagane@177.100-226-89.dsl.completel.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:59:44 mjs2600 [~mjs2600@24.106.194.14] has joined #lisp 12:59:52 -!- mjs2600 [~mjs2600@24.106.194.14] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:06:15 knob [~knob@76.76.202.244] has joined #lisp 13:06:28 -!- foreignFunction [~niksaak@ip-4761.sunline.net.ua] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:07:16 -!- paddymahoney [~patrick@198-84-186-52.cpe.teksavvy.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:10:10 hashcat [~m18@27.242.67.33] has joined #lisp 13:10:45 slyrus [~chatzilla@107.200.11.156] has joined #lisp 13:10:51 alama [~jessealam@HSI-KBW-095-208-248-068.hsi5.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 13:13:08 -!- zolk3ri [~zolk3ri@unaffiliated/zolk3ri] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 13:13:30 -!- tankrim [~user@pdpc/supporter/active/tankrim] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:13:47 mjs2600 [~mjs2600@24.106.194.14] has joined #lisp 13:16:19 tankrim [~user@pdpc/supporter/active/tankrim] has joined #lisp 13:17:52 victor_lowther [~victorlow@143.166.116.80] has joined #lisp 13:19:45 -!- tankrim [~user@pdpc/supporter/active/tankrim] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:19:54 -!- Adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 13:20:51 zolk3ri [~zolk3ri@unaffiliated/zolk3ri] has joined #lisp 13:21:58 -!- knob [~knob@76.76.202.244] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:22:01 tankrim [~user@pdpc/supporter/active/tankrim] has joined #lisp 13:22:10 -!- mjs2600 [~mjs2600@24.106.194.14] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:28:00 prw [~chatzilla@87-57-209-106-static.dk.customer.tdc.net] has joined #lisp 13:30:16 drmeister [~drmeister@d205-250-223-135.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 13:30:33 milanj [~milanj@82.117.199.26] has joined #lisp 13:32:17 mjs2600 [~mjs2600@24.106.194.14] has joined #lisp 13:32:23 Ener2 [~enerccio@158.194.169.56] has joined #lisp 13:32:43 -!- prw [~chatzilla@87-57-209-106-static.dk.customer.tdc.net] has left #lisp 13:32:50 is there a package offering a html-entities replacement function wherein < gets replaced to < etc? 13:32:52 what exactly is quicklisp doing? 13:33:00 mgile [~mgile@74-92-220-177-Colorado.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 13:33:01 is it only loading asd packages from the net? 13:33:21 Ener2: yes. 13:33:35 (who:escape-string "") seems to be what I want, thanks :) 13:33:36 Denommus [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/denommus] has joined #lisp 13:33:36 H4ns: so what if you want to use quicklisp to load your asd? 13:33:47 Ener2: you do it. 13:33:53 which depends on other asd 13:34:02 I have function that automatically export some symbols in some package. When I load this file via asdf it complains that defsystem is redefined and it's export list doesn't match previous one. How can I fix this? 13:34:05 how will ql find it on the disk? 13:34:23 Ener2: ~/quicklisp/local-projects/ or asdf:*central-registry* 13:34:30 s/this file/file with system/ 13:34:42 hitecnologys: delete the package first. 13:35:04 hitecnologys: (i.e. before the defpackage) 13:35:38 H4ns: how can I do that if I didn't even loaded system? Just place (delete-package ...) before defpackage? Wouldn't I lost all my custom exports then? 13:35:45 s/lost/loose/ 13:35:49 H4ns: thank you 13:36:00 hitecnologys: yes, you would loose the old package with all its existing exports. 13:37:00 H4ns: it's not acceptable, how can I force asdf not to load file twice? Why it does this? 13:37:25 Gentlemen, the word is 'lose' not 'loose'. 13:37:28 hitecnologys: you're doing it wrong. 13:37:31 reb: apologies 13:37:55 H4ns: and what's the right way? 13:38:02 -!- mjs2600 [~mjs2600@24.106.194.14] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:38:42 hitecnologys: don't do custom exports 13:38:43 hitecnologys: put the exports into the defpackage, or export everything as a side effect of loading the file containing the defpackage. 13:39:33 fortitude [~mts@rrcs-24-97-165-124.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:39:45 I can't do that, I have some sort of special macro to define functions which should be exported. 13:39:59 hitecnologys: then you're doing that wrong. 13:40:23 -!- przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 13:40:32 H4ns: what's the other way to do this? 13:40:38 paddymahoney [~patrick@24.137.221.230] has joined #lisp 13:41:10 hitecnologys: revise your approach. don't export stuff from random points in your code. 13:41:50 H4ns: I don't do this from random points, I have all this exports in a single file. 13:42:07 H4ns: https://github.com/HiTECNOLOGYs/CL-HCTSMSL/blob/master/src/html-ops.lisp 13:42:20 hitecnologys: then put the defpackage into that same file and delete the package if it exists before the defpackage. 13:43:24 hitecnologys, has anyone ever sat down and had a talk with you about how to name a project? 13:43:26 hitecnologys: nobody forces you to put your defpackage forms into a seperate file. in fact, i never do it. i have a separate package for each of my files. 13:43:52 Quadrescence: the name is bad, I know, it was chosed completelt bad random. 13:44:01 ;) 13:44:19 completely* 13:44:38 -!- milanj [~milanj@82.117.199.26] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:45:01 H4ns: why don't just wrap defpackage in (unless (find-package :package) ...)? 13:45:07 milanj [~milanj@82.117.199.26] has joined #lisp 13:45:35 Quadrescence: actually, first line in readme explains how name was generated. 13:46:07 hitecnologys: if that suits you better, that might work as well. 13:46:38 is there any possibility that defun would return other symbol than the name of function? 13:46:49 H4ns: ok, thanks a lot. 13:47:02 Ener2: why is that needed? 13:47:06 m... 13:47:10 hitecnologys: what are you going? 13:47:10 Ener2: nope, it's defined in standard 13:47:11 hajovonta: I dont need it 13:47:13 it just happens... 13:47:16 (defun ffi::getenv (&rest args) 13:47:17 (apply #'ext::getenv args)) 13:47:19 EXT:GETENV 13:47:40 Ener2: (describe 'ffi::getenv) and (describe 'ext:getenv) 13:47:50 zorkmoid: going what? 13:48:00 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 13:48:06 hitecnologys: doing :-) 13:48:27 zorkmoid: I'm rewriting my html code generation library. 13:48:31 H4ns: http://pastebin.com/zQ72rhYq 13:48:41 hitecnologys: nifty 13:48:56 Ener2: look closely 13:49:03 this channel is so international it makes it colorful when people get tired at different times of the day 13:49:23 hitecnologys, CL-USER> (qtl:implode (qtl:interleave (qtl:explode "HTML") (qtl:explode "CSS"))) ===> "HCTSMSL" 13:49:32 H4ns: so is ffi getting ext version of getenv? 13:49:48 zorkmoid: I wrote it because no library that could do that didn't do exactly what I wanted. 13:49:56 Ener2: ffi::getenv and ext:getenv are the same symbol. 13:50:00 natechan [~natechan@50-192-61-45-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 13:50:01 hitecnologys: which is? 13:50:03 Ener2: the same, identical symbol may be accessible in multiple packages. 13:50:07 hmm then why does it not work 13:50:15 clsql I mean 13:50:36 Ener2: which also means that if you call ext:getenv from ffi::getenv, you're effectively doing a recursive call to the same function, ending up in a recursive loop. 13:50:37 hm 13:50:47 -!- xecycle [~user@59.78.37.25] has left #lisp 13:51:34 what would you say that is the best way to do specific keywords inside of a macro? Simply "parsing" it, or generating them with macrolet? 13:51:34 zorkmoid: I tried cl-who, cl-markup and SEXML. The last one was actully pretty damn good but it generated one huge line of text, I wanted human-readable code. So I took some ideas from SEXML and wrote my own solution to this problem. 13:51:48 przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has joined #lisp 13:51:59 hitecnologys: right, but what problem exactly did those not solve that you are expericencing? 13:52:16 PuercoPop [~user@199.47.72.29] has joined #lisp 13:52:26 Quadrescence: oh, nice, now I have a way to automate generation of stupid unpronounceable names. 13:52:33 :D 13:52:35 chronno [~chronno@132.248.181.1] has joined #lisp 13:52:49 -!- DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:53:10 zorkmoid: cl-who and cl-markup doesn't always detect expressions that should be calculated at runtime. 13:53:33 Quadrescence: I should some day write a library for that maybe. 13:54:15 H4ns: is there a way to make a symbol external in that package? 13:54:26 -!- bitonic [~user@2.222.182.213] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 13:54:27 Ener2: what are you really trying to do? 13:54:27 because ffi:getenv is not external, even though it is there 13:54:39 Ah, I just reread what I said before. It looks like totally incorrect English sentence. =| 13:54:43 Xach: trying to get clsql to work 13:54:53 it needs ffi:getenv 13:55:01 but in ecl, it is in ext:getenv 13:55:03 Ener2: I don't think it really does. 13:55:12 compilation fails with that... 13:55:28 rme [~rme@50.43.166.21] has joined #lisp 13:56:23 aqil [~aqil@94.20.249.191] has joined #lisp 13:56:38 Error while trying to load definition for system clsql from 13:56:39 pathname 13:56:41 /media/home/home/enerccio/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/clsql-20130420-git/clsql.asd: 13:56:42 Cannot find the external symbol GETENV in #<"FFI" package>. 13:56:44 [Condition of type ASDF/FIND-SYSTEM:LOAD-SYSTEM-DEFINITION-ERROR] 13:58:18 Actually, I think it's time to figure out one thing. madnificent, are you here? 13:58:26 -!- przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:59:34 DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has joined #lisp 14:00:04 -!- peterhil` [~peterhil@85-76-58-46-nat.elisa-mobile.fi] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:00:07 -!- spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:00:59 spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 14:02:25 Ener2: it seems that the ecl port of clsql is broken. you need to change it so that it uses ext:getenv instead of ffi:getenv. 14:02:45 Ener2: by changing the call site, not by trying to add a forwarding function. 14:03:16 -!- aqil [~aqil@94.20.249.191] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:03:26 przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has joined #lisp 14:03:53 One quick hack option is (export 'ext:getenv :ffi) 14:04:54 -!- brighid_ is now known as brighid 14:05:15 -!- xificurC [xificurC@nat/ibm/x-hawkctslizubtfhk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:05:57 ApeShot [~user@130.79.58.251] has joined #lisp 14:06:23 So why can't you setf (pathname-host (pathname "some-path") "some-host") 14:06:29 ? 14:06:41 Is this in the Hyperspec somewhere? 14:06:43 -!- Ryxai [~Whitewolf@ool-457a9364.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:06:55 ApeShot: http://l1sp.org/cl/pathname-host - it's not an accessor. 14:07:07 Ryxai [~Whitewolf@ool-457a9364.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 14:07:22 ApeShot: you can do (make-pathname :host "some-host" :defaults pathname) to get a new pathname with a different host, though. 14:07:45 Xach: Thanks! 14:08:17 Xach: I notice that you also cannot say (setf (slot-value #P"path" 'host) some-value) 14:08:33 Does setf slot-value depend on accessors? 14:09:18 Pathnames are not instances of standard classes, and they are effectively immutable. 14:09:25 H4ns: I dont think I have access to clsql, it is not mine 14:10:24 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-152-231.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:10:38 Ener2: hu? 14:11:11 Ener2: but you have the source 14:11:12 Ener2: what stops you from cloning the clsql git repository, making the required fixes and then submitting a patch to the maintainer? 14:11:49 mjs2600 [~mjs2600@24.106.194.14] has joined #lisp 14:12:05 -!- mjs2600 [~mjs2600@24.106.194.14] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:12:26 I want to push something to a property of a property list. I tried the following: http://sprunge.us/ZNMT but it doesn't work - could somebody help me? 14:13:00 nmeum: you don't need the setf. 14:13:01 nmeum: PUSH suffices. you do not need setf. 14:13:16 nmeum: just push .. 14:13:39 (push thingie (get something 'property)) 14:13:40 viola 14:13:51 "get" 14:13:56 H 14:14:02 H4ns: I guess nothing 14:14:18 Ener2: don't let nothing stop you then :D 14:14:18 like this? http://sprunge.us/CLhQ ? 14:14:29 nmeum: no 14:14:30 nmeum: does it work? 14:14:35 no 14:14:51 nmeum: (push thingie (get something 'property)) 14:14:53 nmeum: look at the order of the arguments of getf 14:15:01 zorkmoid: don't tell people to use get, please. 14:15:10 huh? why not? 14:15:10 zorkmoid: where "thingie" is the thing I want to push? 14:15:31 -!- Corvidium [~cosman246@c-24-143-118-11.customer.broadstripe.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:15:35 nmeum: confusingly, getf takes the plist as the first argument and the key as the second, while gethash has it the other way round. 14:15:49 H4ns: get is the exact function to be used here 14:15:58 nmeum: (push "bla" *array*) 14:16:11 unless you want (getf (symbol-plist blah) thingie) ... which is the same as get ... 14:16:21 zorkmoid: because there are no good reasons to use symbol properly lists anymore. they are a relict from the past, when better, explicit data structures were not available. 14:16:30 *nmeum* is confused 14:16:31 zorkmoid: no, he does not want a symbol plist. 14:16:34 H4ns: i disagree. 14:16:48 zorkmoid: that's up to you. 14:17:09 though in this case maybe an alist would be a better fit 14:17:54 nmeum: what do you want to do :-) 14:18:23 zorkmoid: I want to add the string "foo" to the property / array ':things' of the plist *myplist* 14:18:46 nmeum: do you know what a plist is? 14:18:47 nmeum: (getf ), not (getf ) 14:19:20 zorkmoid: Yes, there was an explaniation in the book 'practical common lisp' which I am currently reading 14:19:24 hmph 14:19:46 H4ns: oh 14:19:52 nmeum: whiich chatper? 14:19:57 -!- rme [~rme@50.43.166.21] has left #lisp 14:20:17 zorkmoid: IIRC it was mentioned in chapter 3 14:20:34 (I am currently at chapter 6) 14:20:46 ah, i see my confusion now. 14:20:57 H4ns: so it has to be (push "foo" (getf :things *myplist*))? 14:21:06 ah 14:21:08 oops 14:21:08 listen to H4ns 14:21:14 I missread his sentence 14:21:35 nmeum: you still did not get it right. 14:21:53 *nmeum* figured it out now 14:22:03 _d3f [~gnu@94.242.252.66] has joined #lisp 14:22:11 (push "foo" (getf *myplist* :things)) :) 14:22:17 \o/ 14:22:26 woo! 14:22:28 mjs2600 [~mjs2600@24.106.194.14] has joined #lisp 14:22:40 *zorkmoid* still doesn't understand why people eskew properties on things, oh well. 14:22:59 thanks for your patience ;) 14:23:50 chu [~user@unaffiliated/chu] has joined #lisp 14:24:18 mhbauer [user@nat/ibm/x-fgdksjndblbqkgos] has joined #lisp 14:24:47 -!- ISF [~ivan@187.106.24.203] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.1] 14:25:08 So I've got a logical pathname pointing to a directory, and I want the files in that directory. However, directory returns a list of files relative to the filesystem, not the logical filesystem used to refer to the enclosing directory 14:25:41 Is there an easier way than doing it manually to get the contents of a directory denoted by a logical pathname in logical pathnames, rather than regular pathnames? 14:25:46 ApeShot: code? 14:26:11 (directory #P"LOGICAL;:") 14:26:17 Excuse me 14:26:22 (directory #P"LOGICAL:;") 14:26:42 This gives me all files in LOGICAL's root, but as if passed through transate-logical-pathname 14:26:58 Not much use to me, since this is part of a build process and those paths will be wrong when the code is deployed 14:27:20 directory-files, I mean 14:27:34 No, never mind. 14:27:36 ApeShot: can you show me exactly what you think is broke? 14:27:39 directory is what I mean 14:27:57 Maybe in a lisp-paste 14:28:42 ApeShot: directory always returns truenames. you'll need to reconstruct logical pathnames yourself if you need them (http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/f_dir.htm) 14:28:58 -!- przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:29:09 the first one, (directory #P"LOGICAL;:") will return nil, the second one will return a list with a single object, the object being the name of the translated logical pathname. 14:30:07 rszeno [~rszeno@79.114.104.161] has joined #lisp 14:30:15 My implementation is not conforming, then 14:30:21 directory will return logical pathnames 14:30:24 But I have another bug 14:30:35 probe-directory returns the translated pathname 14:30:45 (directory #P"LOGICAL:;*") will return the content ... 14:30:48 I am trying to use it to ensure that if a pathname is denoting a directory, I refer to it as a directory 14:31:02 But this has the side effect of translating the pathname 14:31:03 ApeShot: huh, no, directory returns truenames 14:31:28 -!- Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 14:31:41 on Franz, (directory #P"LOGICAL;:") returns the content 14:31:43 of the directory 14:32:04 so does (directory #P"LOGICAL:;*") 14:32:14 They have identical output 14:33:11 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:34:02 przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has joined #lisp 14:34:09 mm... strange... not in cmucl 14:35:15 bitonic [~user@2.124.93.36] has joined #lisp 14:35:38 maybe you have a different translation setup for LOGICAL than i would assume... 14:36:11 ditto in sbcl ... 14:37:58 Karl_dscc [~localhost@ipdsw03.informatik.fh-schmalkalden.de] has joined #lisp 14:41:01 anunnaki [~anunnaki@c-174-54-115-236.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:41:25 -!- PuercoPop [~user@199.47.72.29] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:41:29 -!- McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:41:39 ApeShot: how did you setup the translation? 14:42:10 -!- hajovonta [rue@62.212.72.240] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:42:13 -!- mjs2600 [~mjs2600@24.106.194.14] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 14:42:22 mjs2600_ [~mjs2600@24.106.194.14] has joined #lisp 14:42:30 nyef [~nyef@c-50-157-244-41.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:43:04 zorkmoid: thanks for the help, but I've figured it out 14:43:10 I am translating them back by hand 14:43:28 ApeShot: oh, pitty ... must be a betetr way of doing stuff... but if it works ... 14:43:41 -!- zacharias [~zacharias@unaffiliated/zacharias] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.2-dev] 14:44:28 I already had a utility function on hand that did 90% of the work 14:44:39 -!- chu [~user@unaffiliated/chu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:44:41 The right way would be to write a version of directory which respected logical pathnames 14:45:44 not sure what you mean, directory is supposed to translate the name .. 14:46:17 -!- arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-brkcgftnfmsnosgw] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:47:15 -!- mjs2600_ [~mjs2600@24.106.194.14] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:49:19 mjs2600 [~mjs2600@24.106.194.14] has joined #lisp 14:49:24 -!- mjs2600 [~mjs2600@24.106.194.14] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:49:51 McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has joined #lisp 14:53:37 PuercoPop [~user@199.47.72.29] has joined #lisp 14:57:47 smazga [~acrid@64.55.45.194] has joined #lisp 14:58:00 Sagane [~Sagane@177.100-226-89.dsl.completel.net] has joined #lisp 14:59:09 -!- McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:00:50 CatMtKing [~CatMtKing@ed-uluka.dyn.ucr.edu] has joined #lisp 15:01:00 ... what is Xah Lee's objective on comp.lang.lisp, after all? 15:01:10 Denommus: madness 15:01:37 nha_ [~prefect@koln-4d0b1802.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 15:01:42 -!- breakds [~breakds@cpe-74-79-147-26.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 15:02:11 I like reading him anyway for entertainment. 15:03:04 "oh, not just ignorant people dislike Lisp syntax, so I'm certainly a genius" 15:03:04 mjs2600 [~mjs2600@24.106.194.14] has joined #lisp 15:03:59 I haven't found lisp syntax to be a significant obstacle or advantage, myself. 15:04:22 I do like being able to twiddle and kill entire sexps. 15:04:49 the point is not about syntax, is about homoiconicity. S-expression is just a nice way of representing the internal structures, and people stuck with it because it is not invasive and it does work well 15:04:54 _tca [~user@h151.25.91.207.static.ip.windstream.net] has joined #lisp 15:05:38 -!- mjs2600 [~mjs2600@24.106.194.14] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:05:42 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 15:05:57 I just don't understand why some people bitch so much about it 15:06:32 it's a good thing that they don't do it here. 15:07:51 snerk 15:08:21 when people talk about lisp syntax, it is generally the homoiconicity that is under discussion 15:08:58 ThomasH [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/thomash] has joined #lisp 15:09:01 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f754c09.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 15:09:02 Greetings lispers 15:09:16 ThomasH: lisp-unit is good 15:09:26 Xach: Cool, thanks. 15:10:00 dlowe: Xah Lee seems to be bitching about parenthesis and prefix notation 15:10:19 Denommus: I recommend ignoring him, really 15:10:21 yeah, I read about it 15:10:25 *Xach* really enjoys being mistaken for Xah Lee 15:10:26 it's not just lisp that he gets like that 15:10:27 Denommus: he is simply mad. there is nothing more to be said about him. 15:10:44 Xach: I think you're half of the reason why some people still think he got his marbles 15:10:46 You don't have to ignore him, just don't take him seriously 15:10:56 p_l: I'm honored. 15:11:09 Wow, I haven't read CLL for years, but it sounds like it's still the same discussion. 15:11:16 the other half is people who haven't yet noticed the details or went to CLL, I guess 15:11:21 xah lee has marbles, loots of them ... just not in the right place. 15:11:39 the thign that tripped me was his... page about keyboards 15:11:44 (because it was damned wrong) 15:12:10 p_l: this one?http://xahlee.info/kbd/keyboarding.html 15:12:20 I paid Xah Lee $20 one time to conduct a Mathematica challenge with that F# guy. 15:12:33 is there any way in format to display as hex? 15:12:39 Ener2: ~X 15:12:42 -!- alama [~jessealam@HSI-KBW-095-208-248-068.hsi5.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 15:12:50 thanks 15:12:59 ThomasH: and? :) 15:12:59 he also has pretty strange views regarding Emacs keybindings 15:13:13 H4ns: has provided a decent summary of the situation. 15:13:21 jrajav [~jrajav@198.179.137.210] has joined #lisp 15:13:26 Xach: any way to force it being at least some digits long? 15:13:56 -!- PuercoPop [~user@199.47.72.29] has quit [Excess Flood] 15:14:04 Ener2: yes, e.g. ~4,'0X will be four digits long and padded with #\0 on the left. 15:14:06 p_l: this one? http://ergoemacs.org/emacs/emacs_best_keyboard.html 15:14:10 I find Xah's antics vaguely charming. 15:14:10 Ener2: at least four 15:14:42 thanks 15:14:54 zorkmoid: I expected 1 of 3 outcomes. (1) Xah Lee would be conclusively correct humiliating F# guy; (2) Xah Lee would be conclusively incorrect, potentially quieting him down, at least for a bit; (3) no conclusive outcome, they still continue arguing. It was, of course, 3. 15:14:59 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@d205-250-223-135.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:15:14 ThomasH: haha 15:15:30 He doesn't seem to mind nesting parentheses in his writing 15:15:38 zorkmoid: Still felt the $20 was well spent, Xah doesn't seem to be on the best financial footing and he at least did some work for it. 15:16:25 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-177-123-220.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:16:31 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 15:16:38 oh 15:16:58 Back when I read c.l.l, Harrop was the OCaml dude. Now F# is clearly superior. 15:17:04 ThomasH: hehe... he does, seem.. somehow like a smart chap underneeth his rants 15:17:27 drmeister [~drmeister@d205-250-223-135.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 15:17:27 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-177-123-220.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 15:17:32 pkhuong: That's the one. Regardless, he always seems to despise CL. 15:18:05 the WJ fella? 15:18:42 PuercoPop [~user@199.47.72.29] has joined #lisp 15:18:51 zorkmoid: Indeed, if Xah could direct his intelligence to more constructive activities, he'd do well. He seems to prefer to tilt at windmills. 15:20:50 Someoone has to tilt at windmills 15:22:04 zorkmoid, Denommus: http://xahlee.info/kbd/sun_microsystems_keyboard.html <--- that one, actually, last part about "sound" keys 15:22:57 -!- adnap [~adnap@cpe-70-112-164-154.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 15:23:00 it was kind of... a hint 15:23:10 I sent a correction that was ignored, which was a further hint 15:23:57 adnap [~adnap@cpe-70-112-164-154.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:24:43 p_l: hmm... the sound keys worked on the sparcs i had to use ... 15:25:20 horrible horrible machine though 15:25:29 zorkmoid: they do generate symbols that are probably interpreted by something in CDE 15:25:41 but /dev/dsp was pretty common device :) 15:25:49 mm... 15:26:13 my low-end Alpha had 16bit audio DAC 15:26:18 etc. 15:27:03 Apparently I'm in the minority opinion, but I think there is value to be found in Xah Lee rants. Not because I agree with his conclusions, but because he provides a counter balance. For example, I had read his rant on the non-regularity of lisp before, I agree that lisp syntax is not 100% regular, I don't agree with his conclusion that it is a problem to fix, or even a problem at that. But I enjoyed reading about his observation. 15:28:03 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 15:28:19 -!- ph88 [2e2c9618@gateway/web/freenode/ip.46.44.150.24] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 15:30:45 sdemarre [~serge@91.180.80.126] has joined #lisp 15:30:56 PuercoPop: you mean this? http://xahlee.info/UnixResource_dir/writ/lisp_problems.html 15:31:37 hwiersma [~hwiersma@d50-92-237-119.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 15:31:38 ehu [~Erik@31.136.188.196] has joined #lisp 15:31:58 i find nothing irregular about any of those examples 15:32:00 PuercoPop: I like opposition but I like well defined opposition, not random rants 15:32:57 one of the major strength of common lisp is the reader imho 15:33:20 it isn't the sexps ... lists ... etc, it is the reader 15:33:44 ... (' 1 2) and (. 1 2)? What is this guy thinking? 15:34:08 it wouldn't be to hard to write a reader that would accept raw html ... and this stuff about "generating" html would be a moot point 15:34:17 -!- hashcat [~m18@27.242.67.33] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 15:34:26 ... my eyes, my eyes are bleeding 15:34:37 Denommus: well, (. 1 2) == (cons 1 2) 15:34:48 zorkmoid: exactly 15:35:05 astcualt we could do (setf #'\' quote) for that to work (right?) 15:35:08 and (' 1 2) == (quote 1 2) (well, not really, but you get the gist) 15:35:11 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:35:19 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.180.80.126] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:35:54 zorkmoid: the point is that these "irregularities" were conventions to make the code more terse 15:36:00 Denommus: yp 15:36:12 hence my comment about the reader being the thing :-) 15:36:19 and it does not affect homoiconicity at all 15:36:59 actually... has anyone written a html outputter thingie using the reader? :-) 15:37:03 breakds [~breakds@cpe-74-79-147-26.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:37:04 His conclusion that a little sugar syntax around s-exp is a problem worth solving is wrong 15:37:52 but before that I never realized that not everything was an s-exp 15:38:20 PuercoPop: there are other ways of discovering that without reading retarded rants 15:38:28 Aside from the FORMAT and LOOP DSLs, is there anything in CL that can't be expressed as an s-exp? The non-uniformity is just something to reduce verbosity, it isn't necessary or required. 15:38:39 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@dhcp140.dmi.ens.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 15:38:47 -!- trebor_d` [~user@153.96.244.202] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 15:39:02 ThomasH structures, vectors, strings ... 15:39:45 -!- axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-88-224.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:40:06 Denommus: okay, it is not my intention to preach the gospel of Xah Lee :) 15:40:23 -!- Tristam [~Tristam@bodhilinux/team/Tristam] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:41:06 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@92.47.191.246] has joined #lisp 15:41:07 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@92.47.191.246] has quit [Changing host] 15:41:07 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 15:41:38 the reason cl is such a ncie little language is that you can mold it to whatever crazy stuff you want.. 15:41:55 ejohnson [~Thunderbi@c-67-181-201-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:42:21 vacietis is a really wonderful example 15:42:22 ThomasH: I think it doesn't matter, the fact that he sees it a problem to solve means he is missing the point that zorkmoid has stated, a key strength of cl is the ease of writting your own syntax/dsl (or so I heard) 15:43:19 yes, it is a key strength, among other things 15:43:28 axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-88-224.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:44:11 zorkmoid: I only get the strings, feeling dense now. 15:44:39 (vector ...), (make-array ...), (defstruct foo ...), (make-foo ...), etc. 15:44:56 alama [~jessealam@HSI-KBW-095-208-248-068.hsi5.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 15:45:17 ThomasH: hash tables 15:45:19 mjs2600 [~mjs2600@24.106.194.14] has joined #lisp 15:45:48 -!- mjs2600 [~mjs2600@24.106.194.14] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:46:17 Maybe the disconnect is that I'm thinking of this from the point of view of someone using CL, not someone implementing it. 15:46:43 -!- ejohnson [~Thunderbi@c-67-181-201-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:47:18 ThomasH: how do you express a hash table in cl as a sexp? 15:47:21 PuercoPop: not only that but the various standard hooks and facilities to plug-in custom code 15:47:51 ThomasH: # ??? 15:48:09 McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has joined #lisp 15:48:30 also a condition system which was designed for conditions to be handlable intelligently by software, etc 15:49:15 i want proper restarts in slime! 15:49:43 that i can't use use-value and set-value makes me soooo angry 15:49:47 -!- brendyn [brendyn@2400:8900::f03c:91ff:fedf:65b4] has left #lisp 15:50:06 zorkmoid: When I said express, I wasn't thinking of the printed representation, I was thinking of how you would express the code to operate on the data. Bad terminology on my part. 15:52:15 Tristam [~Tristam@bodhilinux/team/Tristam] has joined #lisp 15:52:16 -!- ehu [~Erik@31.136.188.196] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:52:43 -!- alama [~jessealam@HSI-KBW-095-208-248-068.hsi5.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 15:52:56 ehu [~Erik@31.136.188.196] has joined #lisp 15:53:42 or hold on ... 15:53:51 Was Xah Lee complaining about serialization or syntax? 15:53:55 nbouscal [~nbouscal@c-67-185-201-65.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:54:03 did slime actually get support for use-value? 15:54:03 mjs2600 [~mjs2600@24.106.194.14] has joined #lisp 15:54:16 -!- mjs2600 [~mjs2600@24.106.194.14] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:55:59 Bike [~Glossina@67-5-229-86.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 15:56:51 zorkmoid: works here (check-type on SBCL). 15:57:12 mmm... there was something that was annoying me... maybe store-value? 15:57:59 ah! 15:58:02 store-value was the thing 15:58:03 tensorpuddin [~tensorpud@99.23.122.229] has joined #lisp 15:58:21 and use-value without an interactive ... 15:59:08 right right :-) 15:59:24 PuercoPo` [~user@199.47.72.30] has joined #lisp 15:59:59 -!- pierpa [~user@host204-228-dynamic.51-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:00:24 phadthai: what do you mid with custom hooks? 16:00:29 -!- Codynyx [~cody@c-75-72-187-16.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:00:47 -!- HDurer [~user@pdpc/supporter/active/hdurer] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:01:05 Codynyx [~cody@c-75-72-187-16.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:01:06 PuercoPo`: for instance *DEBUGGER-HOOK* *MACROEXPAND-HOOK*, reader macros 16:01:07 -!- PuercoPop [~user@199.47.72.29] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:01:11 bioevolgenec [~bioevolge@unaffiliated/bioevolgenec] has joined #lisp 16:01:13 -!- tensorpudding [~tensorpud@99.148.201.101] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:01:13 -!- tensorpuddin is now known as tensorpudding 16:01:50 PuercoPo`: and handling conditions programatically, the MOP 16:02:14 Hello! I'm porting a Perl/Gtk2 application to Common Lisp /cl-gtk2. I cannot find anything to have a button be disabled. In Perl I would do that with set_sensitive. Any pointers? 16:02:15 the design of CLOS with things like :AROUND methods etc 16:03:33 -!- zickzackv [~faot@port-92-198-30-130.static.qsc.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:04:03 bioevolgenec: I don't know specifically in this case, but it's often something like (setf (sensitivep ...) nil) or similar in lisp. 16:04:25 I don't know of a good place to get cl-gtk2 support, unfortunately. 16:06:30 I'm not sure if that will help, I've never used cl-gtk2, but there is reference to the sensitive slot at http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-gtk2/doc/gtk/action.html 16:06:59 otherwise I would suggest grepping the source code 16:07:08 -!- whitedawg [~whitedawg@122.179.60.207] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:07:19 Ah, thanks Xach and phadthai. I'll try something like that. 16:09:42 Is it possible to change the default location of a quicklisp installation? 16:10:43 nmeum: you can use :path as an argument to quicklisp-quickstart:install 16:10:55 nmeum: or, you can just move the directory after installation. 16:11:09 nmeum: everything is loaded relative to setup.lisp 16:11:20 ok, thanks 16:16:36 people should use restarts more. 16:20:02 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 16:22:30 PuercoPo`: oh and I forgot (as well as probably many other things), but shadowing symbols 16:26:05 (http://paste.lisp.org/display/137793) 16:26:55 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@bzq-218-0-98.cablep.bezeqint.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 16:27:51 -!- hwiersma [~hwiersma@d50-92-237-119.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:28:07 -!- ck`` [~ck@dslb-094-219-235-186.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 16:30:24 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:30:26 arrdem [~user@173.226.190.118] has joined #lisp 16:31:13 Kruppe [~user@j2petkovich.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 16:31:42 hashcat [~m18@27.242.67.33] has joined #lisp 16:40:11 whats the word reifying mean ? 16:40:14 zeroish [~zeroish@135.207.174.50] has joined #lisp 16:40:32 hwiersma [~hwiersma@S0106602ad08e475a.ok.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 16:40:48 wbooze: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reification_(computer_science) 16:40:51 wbooze: it means to make something abstract concrete. 16:41:11 ah 16:41:15 aftershave [~textual@h-123-168-44.a336.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 16:41:18 thank you both 16:41:27 jack_rabbit [~kyle@c-98-253-60-75.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:42:07 bioevolgenec: the naming scheme in cl-gtk2 uses the class where it was defined, so sensitive would be widget-sensitive (with setf) i think 16:43:23 -!- breakds [~breakds@cpe-74-79-147-26.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:43:45 so opposite of abstraction 16:43:54 reification 16:45:50 in what context is used? 16:46:57 -!- PuercoPo` [~user@199.47.72.30] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:47:16 wbooze, in what context is reification used? 16:48:04 err, i saw it in PG's onlisp book or so.... 16:48:51 the part with implementing prolog if i'm not wrong, right? 16:48:54 wakeup [~user@xdsl-89-0-73-80.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:48:57 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-1-78.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:49:07 zacharias [~zacharias@unaffiliated/zacharias] has joined #lisp 16:49:24 i think so 16:51:09 Anybody has any experience with CLX? 16:51:20 i was right heading into clx 16:51:26 I am trying to use it but I can't get it to connect to my xserver, 16:51:26 or so it seems 16:51:26 ph88 [5597cc14@gateway/web/freenode/ip.85.151.204.20] has joined #lisp 16:51:28 reification of a formula means to identify and describe its parts, a kind of abstraction to 16:51:39 $DISPLAY is :0 16:52:02 and into X and Xt....and motif.... 16:52:20 got the books, am thru X, now began Xt 16:52:26 -!- skalawag [user@2600:3c00::f03c:91ff:fedf:3ad2] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:52:32 skalawag [user@2600:3c00::f03c:91ff:fedf:3ad2] has joined #lisp 16:52:54 i think i see now where mcclim derived it's data structures.... 16:53:01 eheh 16:53:11 banjara [~Adium@unaffiliated/banjara] has joined #lisp 16:53:20 so (quicklisp :clx) was successful, and I am able to compile some examples from this tutorial http://www.cawtech.demon.co.uk/clx/simple/examples.html 16:53:23 and some of it's concepts.... 16:55:23 wakeup: you might want to try :0.0 but also verify access using xhost... any particular error? 16:56:11 ferada: Thanks for the advice! I already found out that I could do (setf (gtk:widget-sensitive button) t) to set it to sensitive. 16:56:25 I don't have many experience with clx but used the implementation that comes with ecl a bit some time back 16:56:43 telent clx 16:56:47 wakeup: does (xlib:open-default-display) do anything useful? 16:57:12 no auth stuff ? 16:58:31 it blocks 16:58:38 fooey 16:58:53 did anyone see avodonosov / anatov_ lately ?? 16:59:38 ok it timed out "Connection failure to X0.0 server display 0: " 17:00:11 so 17:00:22 ok xhost says access control is enabled 17:00:33 no auth stuff, i.e. it does not use authentification credentials, and as such fails ? 17:00:34 maybe CLX isn't authorized 17:00:51 thats the only thing it said 17:01:08 access control is acl ? 17:01:33 I don't know? 17:01:50 -!- banjara [~Adium@unaffiliated/banjara] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:02:22 xhost says "access control enabled, only authorized clients can connect" 17:02:55 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f754c09.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 17:03:36 ya 17:03:39 -!- kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:04:02 wakeup: you could try xhost SI:localuser: or xhost +localhost 17:04:26 -!- jrajav [~jrajav@198.179.137.210] has quit [Quit: phunq, sandwich store loop, WHAT NO UNIVERSE] 17:04:45 err that command lacks + before SI as well 17:05:35 worked without a + 17:05:45 but it does't change anything, it still just times out 17:05:53 kami` [~user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 17:05:59 weird 17:06:13 -!- przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 17:06:19 you have to provide the host 17:06:25 not to tell you of my results trying ltk and every gtk binding available 17:06:28 ykm [~ykm@180.148.41.126] has joined #lisp 17:06:40 as in SI or localhost? 17:07:00 Good evening. 17:07:52 "Connection refused (error #111) during attempt to connect to 127.0.0.1:6000" 17:07:57 when trying localhost 17:08:13 Firewall? 17:08:25 no 17:08:29 bioevolgenec: seen this: http://www.crategus.com/books/cl-gtk/gtk-tutorial_toc.html#SEC_Contents 17:09:02 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:09:49 samebchase: Yes, I've seen this. The problem is that it's about GTK3, which is not yet available for Windows. So, just in case I need to run the app in Windows too, I'm using GTK2, with cl-gtk2. 17:09:49 probably the most comprehensive lisp documentation I've seen 17:10:16 wakeup: OPEN-DEFAULT-DISPLAY now takes an optional argument for the display 17:10:28 name, which has the same "protocol/host:display.screen" format as used 17:10:32 oh. okay. 17:10:39 by the C libX11 17:11:21 all timing out 17:11:47 where are you connecting ? 17:11:49 locally ? 17:11:52 yes 17:11:52 remote ? 17:11:55 no 17:12:03 is your server using tcp ? or sockets ? 17:12:07 mjs2600 [~mjs2600@24.106.194.14] has joined #lisp 17:12:15 I'd guess sockets 17:12:21 try :0 17:12:26 I did 17:12:45 I must be doing something really wrong 17:13:05 Yes, you're trying to use CLX. :-) 17:13:07 only host no protocol 17:13:11 err no port i think 17:14:23 -!- zeroish [~zeroish@135.207.174.50] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:14:49 (setf *display* (xlib:open-display (machine-instance))) 17:15:01 (setf *screen* (xlib:display-default-screen *display*))) 17:15:19 doesn't work 17:15:24 refuses connection 17:15:28 #+(or sbcl allegro clisp lispworks) 17:15:35 I'd say I don't have X11 running, but I do ;) 17:15:41 aha 17:15:44 ccl 17:15:47 (progn 17:15:55 (setf *display* (xlib::open-default-display)) 17:16:01 (setf *screen* (xlib:display-default-screen *display*))) 17:16:04 youlysses [~user@75-132-28-10.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 17:16:05 jrajav [~jrajav@198.179.137.210] has joined #lisp 17:16:18 im using clozure, thought clx was compatible 17:16:36 look at clx-demos.lisp 17:17:10 -!- mjs2600 [~mjs2600@24.106.194.14] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:17:15 #-(or cmu sbcl allegro clisp lispworks) 17:17:21 (progn 17:17:28 ;; Portable method 17:17:34 (setf *display* (xlib:open-display (machine-instance))) 17:17:41 mjs2600 [~mjs2600@24.106.194.14] has joined #lisp 17:17:42 (setf *screen* (xlib:display-default-screen *display*))) 17:18:04 Too. Much. Pasting. 17:18:15 that's all of it 17:18:19 no more pasting 17:22:09 -!- jack_rabbit [~kyle@c-98-253-60-75.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:24:16 -!- ApeShot [~user@130.79.58.251] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:24:58 nialo- [~yaaic@66-87-83-200.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 17:25:55 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@78-134-94-45.v4.ngi.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 17:26:04 I just did the following test which works here: http://paste.lisp.org/display/137800 17:26:42 -!- mjs2600 [~mjs2600@24.106.194.14] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 17:26:50 -!- ehu [~Erik@31.136.188.196] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:27:02 mjs2600 [~mjs2600@24.106.194.14] has joined #lisp 17:28:40 Adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 17:29:35 -!- mjs2600 [~mjs2600@24.106.194.14] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:31:31 -!- yacks [~py@180.151.36.168] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:32:00 kushal 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[~josemanue@110.234.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:37:43 -!- ASau [~user@p5797FF73.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:38:08 -!- ASau` is now known as ASau 18:39:36 -!- puchacz [~puchacz@46-65-36-47.zone16.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:39:46 puchacz [~puchacz@46-65-36-47.zone16.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:40:00 josemanuel [~josemanue@87.221.198.0] has joined #lisp 18:41:26 drmeister [~drmeister@d205-250-223-135.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 18:43:20 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f754c09.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 18:44:05 not sure if I can show it here or not 18:44:07 https://github.com/Enerccio/Quad 18:44:19 if anyone feels like trying it out or any comments etc 18:48:21 -!- jrajav [~jrajav@198.179.137.210] has quit [Quit: phunq, sandwich store loop, WHAT NO UNIVERSE] 18:48:55 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 18:48:57 Ener2: maybe I can point to http://mmondor.pulsar-zone.net/test also using ECL :) I just checked your code briefly but will look more at it later on 18:50:02 ehu [~Erik@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 18:51:54 arenz [~arenz@HSI-KBW-109-193-252-079.hsi7.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 18:52:00 -!- BBShortcut [~user@mar92-5-82-225-147-167.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 18:52:29 PuercoPo` [~user@199.47.72.30] has joined #lisp 18:53:38 -!- wakeup [~user@xdsl-89-0-73-80.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:55:04 -!- aftershave [~textual@h-123-168-44.a336.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com] 18:55:18 Dalek_Baldwin [~Adium@71-84-34-33.dhcp.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has joined #lisp 18:55:32 -!- ThomasH [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/thomash] has left #lisp 18:56:13 jrajav [~jrajav@198.179.137.210] has joined #lisp 18:57:40 -!- macrobat [~fuzzyglee@h-199-47.a328.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 18:57:49 -!- _d3f [~gnu@94.242.252.66] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.1] 18:58:03 wakeup [~user@xdsl-89-0-73-80.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 18:59:24 Ener2: what is mod_lisp for? 19:00:33 przl [~przlrkt@p5DCA316D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 19:01:23 -!- josemanuel [~josemanue@87.221.198.0] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:01:39 -!- Watcher7|off is now known as Watcher7 19:02:26 Xach: embedded lisp 19:02:57 https://github.com/Enerccio/Quad/blob/master/test/index.htcl 19:02:59 like in this 19:03:01 aqil [~aqil@91.191.200.193] has joined #lisp 19:03:03 Ener2: are you familiar with the existing software also named mod_lisp in the same domain? 19:03:13 It does something pretty different. 19:03:22 yeah, which is actually why I made this 19:03:48 You were familiar with the existing program and decided to make a different program that does something different but still give it the same name? 19:04:13 is that a trick question or you just dont like the name? 19:04:38 Ener2: it is not good to use a name that already is in use. 19:04:41 I can understand naming something mod_lisp by accident, but I don't understand doing it on purpose. 19:04:42 -!- chronno [~chronno@132.248.181.1] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:04:55 *Xach* struggling to understand 19:05:17 well I named it mod_lisp because in apache you have mod_php 19:05:25 which does give embedded language in html 19:05:54 svs_ [~svs@104-252-AGAVEBB-NM.abq.nm.agavebb.net] has joined #lisp 19:06:09 I recommend a different name. 19:06:17 Ener2: can you please give it a different name? there already is a mod_lisp, and even though it is not used a lot today, it is well known. making something new that is called mod_lisp and does something different will be very confusing. 19:06:27 alright 19:07:29 I've become really resistant to the web server embedded languages on principle 19:08:05 Now that every language comes with its own embedded http server, we shouldn't have to put up with that anymore 19:09:04 Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 19:09:13 kami``` [~user@p57A2B782.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 19:09:39 -!- kami``` is now known as kami` 19:09:52 -!- kami` [~user@p57A2B782.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Changing host] 19:09:52 kami` [~user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 19:09:56 isnt it easier to write website with embed language than generate html in language? 19:10:17 -!- kami` is now known as kami 19:10:33 Ener2: it may sound easier in the first place, but once you're trying to do more complex things, embedded html becomes more of a chore. 19:10:54 -!- kami`` [~user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:11:03 Ener2: and I actually mean that the code of the language should be running in a separate process than the front-end web server. 19:11:16 Ener2: furthermore, nowadays it is becoming more and more popular to do all html processing on the client rather than having the server generate pages for each client separately. 19:11:19 which excludes all the apache-based mod_* 19:12:10 H4ns: sure, but unless there is something like Vaadin for lisp, then, eh, its not that very comfortable to do it 19:12:53 I'm more of a fan of templating for the actual html 19:12:56 Ener2: i'm at the end here. if you think that you need to reinvent php, have fun 19:13:21 stuff that requires javascript to display is still evil 19:15:20 dlowe: but what is that template? 19:15:21 pure html? 19:15:33 karbak [~kar@208.89.1.26] has joined #lisp 19:16:27 josemanuel [~josemanue@229.167.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 19:16:52 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@107.200.11.156] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:19:18 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p5DCA316D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:20:10 przl [~przlrkt@p5DCA316D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 19:21:27 -!- josemanuel [~josemanue@229.167.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:21:47 ejohnson [~Thunderbi@c-67-181-201-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:23:19 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:24:24 -!- Nisstyre-laptop is now known as Nisstyre 19:26:25 -!- mjs2600 [~mjs2600@24.106.194.14] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:26:53 mjs2600 [~mjs2600@24.106.194.14] has joined #lisp 19:28:49 -!- wakeup [~user@xdsl-89-0-73-80.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 19:31:59 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f754c09.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 19:32:28 macrobat [~fuzzyglee@h-199-47.a328.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 19:32:39 -!- mjs2600 [~mjs2600@24.106.194.14] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:32:48 mjs2600 [~mjs2600@24.106.194.14] has joined #lisp 19:36:03 -!- lkjh_ [~lkjh@170.20.11.31] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:37:03 -!- PuercoPo` is now known as PuercoPop 19:37:06 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p5DCA316D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 19:49:02 -!- mjs2600 [~mjs2600@24.106.194.14] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:49:31 mjs2600 [~mjs2600@24.106.194.14] has joined #lisp 19:50:24 Teratogen [leontopod@unaffiliated/teratogen] has joined #lisp 19:50:40 is there One Lisp, like there is One C Language and On Perl 5 ? 19:50:49 s/On /One / 19:51:13 The is one Common Lisp spec 19:52:25 Teratogen: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Front/ 19:52:35 przl [~przlrkt@p5DCA316D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 19:53:53 Denommus` [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/denommus/x-89635553] has joined #lisp 19:55:09 -!- Denommus [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/denommus] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:55:28 dcooper8 [~dcooper8@198.109.114.148] has joined #lisp 19:56:56 -!- Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:57:33 s/The/There/ 19:58:40 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ho1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 19:58:47 -!- Adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:58:58 -!- youlysses [~user@75-132-28-10.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:59:33 -!- sid_cyph1r is now known as sid_cypher 19:59:39 jordan` [~jordan@2.120.244.18] has joined #lisp 19:59:44 hello 20:00:09 jordan`: hi 20:00:24 I've got a brief question - I'm sure there's a correct way to do what I'm trying to do but it's eluding me 20:00:34 What's up? 20:01:03 I've got a class with three slots: a, b and c, and I have a list like '(1 2 3) - I want to basically do (setf a (first my-list)) (setf b (second my-list)) (setf c (third my-list)) 20:01:23 is there a particularly nice way to do this? 20:01:30 -!- dcooper8 [~dcooper8@198.109.114.148] has quit [Quit: dcooper8] 20:01:33 -!- karbak [~kar@208.89.1.26] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:02:31 Not that nice, but you could do something like (with-slots (a b c) (setf (values a b c) (values-list '(1 2 3)))) 20:02:35 -!- jewel [~jewel@105-236-178-139.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 20:03:18 -!- flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:03:22 that's quite a lot nicer than what I was doing 20:03:45 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p5DCA316D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:03:49 thanks 20:04:16 jordan`: check out with-accessors 20:04:18 as well 20:04:48 -!- PuercoPop [~user@199.47.72.30] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:05:43 -!- zacharias [~zacharias@unaffiliated/zacharias] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:06:07 Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 20:06:15 ok - thanks 20:06:43 przl [~przlrkt@p5DCA316D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 20:07:09 Guest39357 [~user@199.47.72.30] has joined #lisp 20:07:22 Cool, I didn't realize VALUES provided setfable places. 20:07:45 Wow! Were you a MULTIPLE-VALUE-SETQ user? 20:08:16 Neither :) 20:08:24 hi all. regarding jordan`'s question - is there anything that speaks against writing a macro? 20:08:46 sid_cypher: if it's something that is done a lot, writing a macro can be a good idea. 20:08:52 tried map, but setq/setf not functions, lambda wrapper doesn't help 20:09:00 Xach: thx^^ 20:09:07 flip214 [~marek@86.59.100.100] has joined #lisp 20:09:08 -!- flip214 [~marek@86.59.100.100] has quit [Changing host] 20:09:08 flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has joined #lisp 20:09:42 Xach: I didn't even know that it existed until I had to fix it in ABCL 2 years ago :-) 20:10:24 heh 20:10:33 I wonder if I wrote a LispTip(tm) about it 20:11:37 dcooper8 [~dcooper8@198.109.114.148] has joined #lisp 20:11:53 -!- Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 20:12:14 *Xach* stumbled across this quick way to add an element to a sorted list today: (merge (list element) list test) 20:12:29 Thanks, Bernhard Pfahringer, wherever you are! 20:14:07 -!- mjs2600 [~mjs2600@24.106.194.14] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:14:13 that's elegant. 20:14:15 mjs2600 [~mjs2600@24.106.194.14] has joined #lisp 20:14:42 Merge the sequences SEQUENCE1 and SEQUENCE2 destructively into a sequence of type RESULT-TYPE using PREDICATE to order the elements. 20:14:52 that is quite cool ) 20:15:17 there is a Specification for Common Lisp but is there a reference implementation? 20:15:20 like THE Lisp 20:15:23 Teratogen: no. 20:15:27 bummer =( 20:15:48 Having it would be great, but lacking it is not too much of a bummer. 20:15:53 Teratogen: why do you need THE reference code? 20:16:17 One Lisp to bring them all and in the darkness bind them! 20:16:41 oh, i just remembered there is one 20:16:45 arbitrary quotation? well i'm sold 20:16:48 Teratogen: most other langs have a de-facto reference implementation because that is the only one that is widely used 20:16:57 http://code.google.com/p/lisp5000/source/browse/lisp500.c 20:18:05 sid_cypher: what is that a reference implementation for? 20:18:13 common lisp! 20:18:29 that was a bad joke, because yes, not common lisp enough 20:18:42 -!- Denommus` is now known as Denommus 20:18:52 -!- Denommus [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/denommus/x-89635553] has quit [Changing host] 20:18:53 Denommus [~user@unaffiliated/denommus] has joined #lisp 20:18:53 -!- Denommus [~user@unaffiliated/denommus] has quit [Changing host] 20:18:53 Denommus [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/denommus/x-89635553] has joined #lisp 20:19:11 is that some kind of minimalist lisp? 20:19:19 -!- flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20:19:32 there was this superobfuscated, illegible lisp implementation in C, codegolfed into a mess of characters 20:19:43 Teratogen: minimal as in, it's user-base is minimal 20:19:46 Teratogen: you have the specification. Why wouldn't that be enough? 20:19:53 sid_cypher: I liked the joke 20:19:55 s/it's/its/ 20:20:14 flip214 [~marek@86.59.100.100] has joined #lisp 20:20:14 -!- flip214 [~marek@86.59.100.100] has quit [Changing host] 20:20:14 flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has joined #lisp 20:20:16 Denommus: Wouldn't it be nice to have an implementation where you knew the answers it gave to well-specified questions was correct? 20:20:54 rather than figure out exactly what the spec meant 20:21:04 *Xach* had a question like that a while ago, though maybe it wasn't well-specified after all 20:21:06 Xach: but then what happens if the implementation is bugged? 20:21:19 i've read a document called SBCL: Sanely Bootstrappable Common Lisp 20:21:38 pkhuong: Off to the hermitage :~( 20:21:56 implementations are buggy because specs are ambigous, :) 20:22:00 it comments on how sbcl is written mostly in portable lisp and can be built with many lisps 20:22:12 Xach: which part of the implementation are implementatin details and which specification? Must every implmentation have the same fixnum range? 20:23:05 Xach: no. This hypothetical implementation would try to implement somehow the undefined behaviors, and people would think its behavior would be the "correct" one, when there is no correct option 20:23:37 Ok, so then you would have to have two reference implementations that always gave different answers in such cases. 20:24:33 I think a standard update would be better 20:25:12 -!- Guest39357 is now known as PuercoPop` 20:25:13 I think you need many more than two to cover the possibilities. Float types collapse, for example. Or specialised array types, for which there's something like an uncountable number of possibilities. 20:25:17 pkhuong, the spec doesn't replace the manual of implementation, finaly we ends with reading both 20:25:41 Ok, an uncountable number of reference implementations would be nice. 20:25:42 -!- PuercoPop` is now known as PuercoPo 20:26:18 Well there is a "reference Implementation" starting, but reference in a well to show how could common lisp be written in common lisp. https://github.com/robert-strandh/SICL 20:26:41 -!- nha_ [~prefect@koln-4d0b1802.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20:26:49 AeroNoti1 [~xeno@abny71.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 20:26:59 a reference implementation in LOLCODE would be nice :3 20:27:04 rszeno: yes. useful implementations tend to extend the standard, and hopefully document unspecified behaviour. 20:27:10 It is nice to see new activity on SICL 20:28:41 I hope he is able to get contributors like JSCL, so he'll be more motivated to work on it 20:29:04 Still, it's a rather impressive solo-hacking effort 20:29:13 -!- aqil [~aqil@91.191.200.193] has quit [Quit:     (xchat 2.4.5  )] 20:29:13 -!- AeroNotix [~xeno@abog141.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:30:05 -!- eldariof [~CLD@188.168.241.50] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20:30:07 I wonder if beach will hang out with Lispers sometime in the future. He has been on something of a hiatus. 20:30:58 Corvidium [~cosman246@D-173-250-159-226.dhcp4.washington.edu] has joined #lisp 20:31:24 does beach have a site/blog? 20:31:30 or a real-name 20:31:31 -!- mikecsh [~mikecsh@87.244.76.226] has quit [Quit: mikecsh] 20:33:05 Xach: I like how this is similar to today 20:33:10 pitty that eclipse is not maintained 20:33:24 -!- mjs2600 [~mjs2600@24.106.194.14] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:33:33 -!- knob [~knob@76.76.202.244] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:33:45 -!- jordan` [~jordan@2.120.244.18] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:33:51 mjs2600 [~mjs2600@24.106.194.14] has joined #lisp 20:33:52 samebchase: robert strandh 20:34:41 oh, okay. I've seen his site. 20:36:02 lkjh_ [~lkjh@170.20.11.31] has joined #lisp 20:36:17 -!- nightfly [~sage@sagenite.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:37:14 -!- mjs2600 [~mjs2600@24.106.194.14] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:37:21 mjs2600 [~mjs2600@24.106.194.14] has joined #lisp 20:37:57 -!- dcooper8 [~dcooper8@198.109.114.148] has quit [Quit: dcooper8] 20:43:58 -!- nbouscal [~nbouscal@c-67-185-201-65.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20:47:03 theseb [~cs@74.194.237.26] has joined #lisp 20:48:05 I'm a Python person that *wants* to become a lisp macro junkie so I ask.....Is there any studies/proofs that show lisp macro magic is FASTER/BETTER/MORE AWESOME than Python for some cases? Which? 20:48:07 macrotroscoptic [4f9cfff4@gateway/web/freenode/ip.79.156.255.244] has joined #lisp 20:48:40 There is nothing like that. 20:48:43 i want to be convinced 20:48:52 Start using Common Lisp and decide for yourself in time. 20:48:54 theseb: convince yourself. 20:49:41 theseb: the proof of the pudding is in the eating 20:50:11 i'd hate to write "attempt to show macros are AWESOME" into a grant request 20:50:17 heh 20:50:17 theseb, what is so special to macros and where did hear this? i'm just curios 20:51:10 rszeno: the prophet P. Graham used them in his much hyped Viaweb startup....and they DO seem powerful.....it seemed logical that they may provide near divine powers 20:51:42 Indeed, only nearly divine powers. 20:51:45 rszeno: really...truly most languages are pretty much the same but macros are something I still think only Lisp has 20:51:47 i don't think you're going to convince anybody if you sound like an excitable pseudoreligious teenager 20:52:19 Bike: empirical evidence suggests otherwise 20:52:36 not that I advocate that strategy, mind you 20:52:36 *Bike* sighs 20:52:42 is nothing special except the ability to do wrong things faster, :) 20:52:57 -!- jrajav [~jrajav@198.179.137.210] has quit [Quit: I tend to be neutral about apples] 20:53:31 is there a format directive to come back to the beginning of the CURRENT line? 20:54:03 rszeno: if someone has 10 years invested in python and it works great.....it is a hard sell to convince $BRAIN to try something new unless it is near divine or gives 10x speed up...that's the deal 20:55:03 <``Erik> early C++ compilers produced C as their output, I'd imagine you could argue that c++ is a lisp style macro for C? 20:55:55 -!- setmeaway [~setmeaway@119.201.52.138] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:56:08 read pride and prejudice of stewrt watt, with lisp you are 2-5 times more productive. what you need more to convince somebody that is good, :) 20:56:43 mikecsh [~mikecsh@82.112.141.119] has joined #lisp 20:57:06 Denommus: Don´t think so. 20:57:12 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-4d01299b.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:57:35 is there any way of printing always in the same line? 20:57:41 Lisp can easily be written in Perl 20:57:53 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ho1.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:58:00 Denommus: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/2619172/common-lisps-equivalent-of-r-inside-the-format-function Maybe that will help. 20:58:01 rszeno: heh....found it 20:58:15 lol Pride and Predudice 20:58:16 :) 20:58:21 would be nice to have a CL personality in perl6. if only to annoy lwall. 20:58:33 -!- lkjh_ [~lkjh@170.20.11.31] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:59:13 *rszeno* perl6 will annoy him, :) 20:59:15 -!- statl [~statl@dslb-094-218-017-203.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 20:59:50 -!- macrotroscoptic [4f9cfff4@gateway/web/freenode/ip.79.156.255.244] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 21:00:19 rszeno: there is a power point version and a text version it seems 21:00:55 Perl 6 is absorbing a lot of Haskell-like stuff. 21:00:56 no pdf? 21:01:01 is Haskell a variant of Lisp? 21:01:10 not really. 21:01:33 -!- antgreen_ [~green@dsl-173-206-105-245.tor.primus.ca] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:01:35 insofar as "variant of lisp" is even usefully defined, of course 21:01:55 theseb, http://www.comp.rgu.ac.uk/staff/sw/presentations/prideprejudice.pdf 21:02:16 Denommus: not a standard way 21:02:23 -!- arenz [~arenz@HSI-KBW-109-193-252-079.hsi7.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 21:02:29 Xach: it doesn't need to be standard 21:02:45 rszeno: how is this related? http://www.tommarkson.com/lisp/pride/prejudice.html 21:03:42 the pdf is a presentation, a short version 21:03:55 Denommus: is this for console or e.g. slime? 21:04:03 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p5DCA316D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:04:05 nbouscal [~nbouscal@c-67-185-201-65.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:04:06 console 21:05:25 kiuma [~kiuma@2-230-138-74.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 21:05:44 theseb, read both if you have time. 21:06:22 i shall thanks 21:06:38 Denommus: I've used ~C and #\Return before 21:06:59 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-1-78.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:07:07 Xach: I'll try it. Thanks 21:07:11 and ~C and #\Escape for ANSI terminal colors. taste the rainbow! 21:09:40 -!- milanj [~milanj@82.117.199.26] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:09:42 -!- hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@46.233.223.166] has quit [Quit: zzz...] 21:10:33 -!- nbouscal [~nbouscal@c-67-185-201-65.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 266 seconds] 21:10:33 Is there a Lisp "Compiler" that take Lisp source code and generates an executable binary? 21:11:04 Teratogen: yes. most of them. 21:11:12 cool 21:11:18 clhs compile 21:11:18 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_cmp.htm 21:12:04 In Common Lisp, "compile" is more traditional and flexible than just "write out a binary executable file". You can compile individual functions and look at their disassembly interactively. Or compile individual files and load them into the application. 21:12:22 is bytecode not directly excutable or i'm wrong? 21:12:34 What's "directly executable"? 21:12:56 elf for example 21:13:05 -!- kami [~user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:13:06 you can specify an elf interpreter. :P 21:13:27 "bytecode" generally refers to something similar to machine code that's not executed by the physical processor though, yeah. 21:13:47 But even then you have for instance Jazelle letting ARM processors run some JVM bytecode. 21:14:27 -!- mjs2600 [~mjs2600@24.106.194.14] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:14:45 -!- dotemacs [uid801@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-civwiwndgqwbiewa] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:14:49 -!- Dalek_Baldwin [~Adium@71-84-34-33.dhcp.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:15:04 as long as you need fuse to run it or a vm is not a standalogn executable anyway 21:15:31 -!- rvirding [uid5943@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-vohmvrqiqsqtkxsr] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:15:59 -!- NimeshNeema [uid2689@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-nlsegivcdivzitla] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 21:16:00 It's not easy to define "standalone", e.g., you need ld.so for modern nontrivial programs, that sort of thing 21:16:17 -!- d4gg4d [uid7020@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-aibezvpwgehymtga] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:16:30 vedm [~Adium@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 21:16:57 -!- vedm [~Adium@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has left #lisp 21:17:05 true, bit most people when ask about executable are talking about native code for their os 21:17:38 everything else is interpreted 21:17:39 Xach: yes, return with (force-output) works greatly 21:17:52 You'd think, but people come here and complain that lisp native code compilers don't produce ELFs all the time. 21:18:16 Xach: thanks 21:18:26 No problem. 21:18:46 -!- AeroNoti1 [~xeno@abny71.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: Uploading hax.....] 21:18:54 antgreen [~green@dsl-173-206-105-245.tor.primus.ca] has joined #lisp 21:19:01 AeroNotix [~xeno@abny71.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 21:19:14 maybe is not so hard to compile to elf, some scheme already do this 21:19:53 -!- PuercoPo [~user@199.47.72.30] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:19:54 it's not. multiple CL implementations produce elfs. 21:20:30 i didin't know 21:20:42 ECL produces it, AFAIK 21:20:44 vedm [~vedm@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 21:20:46 even bytecode interpreted implementations do! (just like that other python) 21:22:13 Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 21:22:48 -!- vedm [~vedm@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:23:07 vedm [~vedm@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 21:23:09 well, there are ARM processors that know how to run jvm byte code. does that make it interpreted or hardware? I think the interpreter is embedded in the hardware in those cases 21:23:11 -!- ASau [~user@p4FF96B51.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:23:38 ASau` [~user@p4FF96B51.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 21:25:03 ehu: the last of the stack machines. 21:25:08 hard to draw a border to what is interpreted today, see microcode, :) 21:25:52 pkhuong: :-) sounds terrible. 21:26:03 -!- vedm [~vedm@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Client Quit] 21:26:03 <_tca> what about the GA144 21:26:27 -!- puchacz [~puchacz@46-65-36-47.zone16.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:26:46 "High Level Language Programs Run Ten Times Faster in Microstore" tells an interesting story of microcode compiler. Baker laughs at native code compilers: real compilers rewrite the microcode. 21:27:14 -!- ASau` is now known as ASau 21:29:21 I could go along with that, if my program is the only one running on that processor. 21:30:34 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 21:30:49 How hard would it be to make an ELF file that pointed to SBCL or some other implementation as an "interpreter", possibly had stub code or whatever to start the "interpreter", and then had a FASL embedded as a data segment or similar? 21:31:08 i'm not sure the next year will be available so i can't base my work on it 21:31:09 nyef: binfmt_misc or whatever that is? 21:31:13 would you need it to be a data segment? i thought elf code segments had no specific format 21:32:52 mjs2600 [~mjs2600@user-0c999kc.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 21:32:54 pkhuong: No, as an actual ELF file, not a Linux-specific hack. 21:33:15 there is TIS 21:33:40 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:36:13 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-176-213.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:39:45 -!- wheelsucker [~user@168.114.240.151] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:39:50 -!- Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:40:34 nmasdeuasdasdm [~asdsad@p20030058A6149C0190265A3C714A669D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 21:44:42 -!- nmasdeuasdasdm [~asdsad@p20030058A6149C0190265A3C714A669D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Client Quit] 21:50:19 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:51:06 Dalek_Baldwin [~Adium@108-225-26-178.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:52:18 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@d205-250-223-135.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:54:20 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@233.206-244-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 21:54:20 -!- Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@233.206-244-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Changing host] 21:54:20 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 21:55:15 nyef: probably none 21:55:32 just a bit of coding to parse ELF as core file 21:55:35 -!- Tristam [~Tristam@bodhilinux/team/Tristam] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:56:03 I said FASL, not core, but yeah. It really doesn't seem as though it'd be overly difficult. 21:56:09 p_l: we already do core files. 21:56:20 the same goes for FASLs, yes 21:56:23 -!- Kruppe [~user@j2petkovich.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:56:27 -!- AeroNotix [~xeno@abny71.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:56:44 pkhuong: this is more about ELF loading than SBCL 21:57:39 Tristam [~Tristam@bodhilinux/team/Tristam] has joined #lisp 21:58:02 nyef: I don't remember details, but ELF interpreter essentially gets the parameters + opened file or something like that 21:58:04 -!- fortitude [~mts@rrcs-24-97-165-124.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:58:11 would have to look up code for ld-so 21:58:32 -!- Ryxai [~Whitewolf@ool-457a9364.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:58:32 -!- natechan [~natechan@50-192-61-45-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]] 21:59:18 pierpa [~user@host204-228-dynamic.51-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 22:01:10 Mmm. So, straightforward, at least. 22:01:24 And not something that I'm inclined to dig more deeply into at this point. 22:03:23 -!- Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:04:26 Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 22:05:37 nbouscal [~nbouscal@c-67-185-201-65.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:05:47 pbgc [~pbgc@2.81.170.90] has joined #lisp 22:06:18 nyef: basically ELF interpreter is supposed to have the file to be interpreted passed according to OS ABI, and is supposed to build (or run) the executable in memory, that's all 22:06:20 -!- nbouscal [~nbouscal@c-67-185-201-65.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 22:06:40 -!- Codynyx [~cody@c-75-72-187-16.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:08:46 Codynyx [~cody@c-75-72-187-16.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:09:28 nbouscal [~nbouscal@c-67-185-201-65.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:10:46 przl [~przlrkt@p5DCA316D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 22:12:18 syamajala [~syamajala@dyn-160-39-225-105.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 22:12:55 -!- zorkmoid [c2ed8e11@gateway/web/freenode/ip.194.237.142.17] has quit [K-Lined] 22:15:29 lol 22:15:31 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p5DCA316D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:15:53 -!- mjs2600 [~mjs2600@user-0c999kc.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:18:14 drmeister [~drmeister@d205-250-223-135.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 22:19:07 -!- Ener2 [~enerccio@158.194.169.56] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:20:14 -!- syamajala [~syamajala@dyn-160-39-225-105.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 22:20:25 -!- Sagane [~Sagane@177.100-226-89.dsl.completel.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:20:28 syamajala [~syamajala@dyn-160-39-225-105.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 22:21:51 -!- nug700 [~nug700@174-26-145-138.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 22:22:53 -!- mhbauer [user@nat/ibm/x-fgdksjndblbqkgos] has left #lisp 22:23:09 zRecursive [~czsq888@118.112.68.14] has joined #lisp 22:23:57 ehaliewicz [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 22:26:06 installing quicklisp on nitrous.io, heh 22:27:08 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:28:29 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:35:06 -!- nyef [~nyef@c-50-157-244-41.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: G'night all.] 22:35:13 -!- recycle [~recycle@2602:304:b2eb:e570:1d00:e967:c1bc:4fd] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:37:13 going home, goodbye 22:38:27 -!- ryankarason is now known as rk[xp] 22:39:57 yrk [~user@c-50-133-134-220.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:40:33 -!- yrk [~user@c-50-133-134-220.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 22:40:33 yrk [~user@pdpc/supporter/student/yrk] has joined #lisp 22:41:08 -!- Denommus [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/denommus/x-89635553] has quit [Quit: going home] 22:41:30 -!- pbgc [~pbgc@2.81.170.90] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/] 22:45:24 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 22:46:01 sdemarre [~serge@91.180.80.126] has joined #lisp 22:47:18 zolk3ri1 [~zolk3ri@catv-89-132-196-182.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 22:48:05 -!- mikecsh [~mikecsh@82.112.141.119] has quit [Quit: mikecsh] 22:48:58 -!- zolk3ri [~zolk3ri@unaffiliated/zolk3ri] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:49:40 mjs2600 [~mjs2600@user-0c999kc.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 22:52:03 -!- mgile [~mgile@74-92-220-177-Colorado.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Parting is such sweet sorrow...] 22:59:31 breakds [~breakds@cpe-74-79-147-26.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:00:03 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.96.99] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 23:01:49 -!- syamajala [~syamajala@dyn-160-39-225-105.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:07:45 -!- sad0ur [~sad0ur@ip-89-102-144-158.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:09:16 -!- xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.224.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:10:35 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@internet2.cznet.cz] has quit [Quit: ZNC - 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That seems to have good and bad consequences 23:52:29 linked conses, yeah 23:52:43 -!- paddymahoney [~patrick@24.137.221.230] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:52:48 pkhuong: thanks for the correction, my fault. i've updated the article. 23:52:56 on one hand, it is elegant to define lists in terms of something simpler...on the other hand....nested conses are themselves more complex than a nice elegant list of items 23:53:10 Hexstream [~hexstream@184.161.190.194] has joined #lisp 23:53:36 e.g. which looks cleaner... (1 2 3 4) or (1 . (2 . (3. (4 . nil) ))) 23:53:49 ...or whatever (1 2 3 4 ) translates to 23:54:06 can't you see my point?....the conses version looks more threatening 23:54:18 That is possibly why they print the way they do. 23:54:27 All those .s are like bullet holes! 23:54:31 MusangKing [~CatMtKing@ucrwpa1-fs-33-169.bulk.ucr.edu] has joined #lisp 23:55:19 -!- MusangKing [~CatMtKing@ucrwpa1-fs-33-169.bulk.ucr.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 23:55:20 And that 3. is just really adamant about being read in decimal. 23:55:52 Xach: yes, I thought it was just really old code at first. 23:56:58 Xach: isn't it misleading to have lisp PRINT a list as (1 2 3 4) then if that is NOT what it *is*? 23:57:15 is there a way to have lisp print the full blown cons version? 23:57:19 it's not a series of text either 23:57:31 -!- CatMtKing [~CatMtKing@ed-uluka.dyn.ucr.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:57:35 things can be printed however we want, it's just a representation 23:57:44 theseb: It helps to keep firmly in mind the difference between external and internal representations of things. 23:57:58 you should think about real advantages and disadvantages, like access times and cache failures 23:57:59 theseb: yes, you can write a function to print it your way and have the pretty-printer use it 23:59:00 nbouscal [~nbouscal@c-67-168-113-48.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:59:28 -!- nbouscal [~nbouscal@c-67-168-113-48.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 23:59:30 theseb: The list of conses making up the list (1 2 3 4) can be interpreted as anything, really. The intentional type is in the mind of the programmer. The list interpretation just happens to be convenient and concise read for a human in particular. 23:59:40 For instance, (list 1) could print as what it *is*, something like "#x2 #x20100017"