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00:03:51 <tyrick> how can I give a print a new line with (print ...)
00:04:01 <tyrick> just print a new line*
00:04:54 <tyrick> "~%" seems to be what I'm reading, but when I do something like (print "blah~%") it merely prints out that exact string
00:04:55 <Bike> use terpri instead?
00:05:01 <Bike> that's format you're thinking of
00:05:03 <Xach> tyrick: to start a new line unconditionally, you can use terpri.
00:05:08 <tyrick> k
00:05:09 <Bike> (format t "blah~%")
00:05:12 <sauerkrause> ~% only works with format
00:05:15 <sauerkrause> like above
00:05:27 <Xach> to start one only if you're not already on a new line, you can use fresh-line.
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00:22:42 <SexyGirlG> my skype am a hot girl add em guys  : rose.mourad
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00:23:41 <tyrick> thankss
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03:55:10 <ASau> (single-float 0s0 #.(float most-positive-fixnum 1s0))
03:55:14 <ASau> Is #. portable?
03:56:41 -!- ryankarason is now known as rk[zzz]
03:56:45 <pkhuong> of course. the declaration isn't though: short and single floats aren't guaranteed to be the same type, and it's far from certain that m-p-f will convert without error.
03:58:00 <ASau> Ah, no, wrong.
03:58:07 <ASau> The problem is with typecase.
03:58:14 <ASau> CLISP doesn't like the type specifier.
04:00:51 <ASau> In addition, SBCL's build system has removed my backup file.
04:00:54 *ASau* curses.
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04:03:27 <tyrick> Is Paul Graham's book 'On Lisp' a good read? or good thing to read as a beginner?
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04:09:25 <nightfly> I've heard good things about it, but Paul Grahem's style doesn't really match up with a lot of other Common Lisp developer's.
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04:17:17 <prkchp_sndwch> I'm having trouble with asdf trying to download a package. A dependency of it is hosted at cliki, but asdf gets a 500 http error when trying to access it. Is there a way to update the package listings with asdf?
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04:18:14 <Bike> ...are you trying to use asdf-install?
04:19:24 <prkchp_sndwch> Bike, yes
04:20:18 <Bike> don't. use quicklisp.
04:20:28 <prkchp_sndwch> I'm attempting to install cffi and TRIVIA-GRAY-STREAMS
04:20:33 <prkchp_sndwch> is the dep that's messing up
04:20:45 <Bike> asdf-install is outdated
04:20:51 <Bike> we use quicklisp now
04:21:01 <prkchp_sndwch> Bike, gotcha. Thanks.
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04:33:06 <tyrick> sorry, logged out
04:33:29 <tyrick> any recommendations on Paul Graham's 'on lisp'
04:33:50 <Bike> minion: graham crackers?
04:33:50 <minion> graham crackers: http://www.cs.northwestern.edu/academics/courses/325/readings/graham/graham-notes.html
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04:37:15 <tyrick> ha... so is it a recommended read you think?
04:37:23 <tyrick> or should I grab another source?
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06:03:34 <H4ns> tyrick: i like on lisp, but it is not a book to follow by the word
06:04:30 <H4ns> "reader discretion is advised"
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07:01:27 <ScriptDevil> Hi. Does anyone know if there is an upper-age-limit for http://lispinsummerprojects.org/ ?
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07:05:54 <nightfly> I don't think so
07:06:07 <nightfly> I still need to come up with a project for it.
07:06:41 <nightfly> All of my other summer projects were already decided to be done in non-lisps before I heard of this.
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09:40:11 <hajovonta> hello
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10:32:00 <anannie> Hey I'm building an articulated robotic arm and I was wondering if I could do the inverse kinematics code in lisp. I've done google searches for embedded lisp and even though there seems to be TinyScheme and Picobit, I can't find an embedded lisp system that I can readily take and use... Does anyone know about such a system?
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10:33:29 <Zhivago> Well, how big is your embedded machine?
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10:33:50 <Zhivago> These days they tend to be enormous, so there's often no need to pick some little system.
10:34:42 <anannie> Zhivago: I have freedom over there, basically I would like to run a lisp interpreter bare metal in real-time (for stepper motor control)
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10:35:39 <Zhivago> Well, how big is your machine?
10:36:06 <anannie> Zhivago: The arm? Quite big.
10:36:16 <anannie> Zhivago: It's approaching industrial sizes
10:36:18 <Zhivago> No ... the computer.
10:37:36 <anannie> Zhivago: Well as I've said I have freedom over there... I'll adopt whatever can be readily supported by Lisp and is powerful enough to do my calculations in real-time
10:38:10 <Zhivago> So, you don't have any computer in mind at all?
10:38:32 <Zhivago> If you use a raspberry pi, for example, you can run pretty much any lisp system you can get to work under ARM.
10:38:38 <anannie> I've looked at Cortex M3 and M4 boards
10:39:10 <Zhivago> Well, those are big desktop machines from 10 years back.
10:39:11 <anannie> Zhivago: Yes, but it would be a challenge to make it real-time, iirc.
10:39:28 <Zhivago> Well, that's because there are almost no real-time systems.
10:39:47 <Zhivago> Fortunately 'doing things really fast' is probably sufficient for you.
10:39:55 *anannie* nods
10:40:04 <anannie> I would prefer if I could time actions to the system clock
10:40:18 <anannie> I'll be running a PID for motor control
10:40:19 <Zhivago> And since you have a large arm, this means that you'll be probably operating in relatively large fractions of seconds.
10:40:24 <anannie> so it's better if it's time accurately
10:40:28 <Zhivago> Which means that qbasic would probably be fine.
10:40:52 <anannie> Zhivago: Actually no, I want it to move quite fast and I have an envelope of roughly 300ms when it comes to reaction times
10:40:55 <Zhivago> From what you've said, you don't actually have any particularly special requirements.
10:41:06 <Zhivago> 300ms is ... a relatively large fraction of a second.
10:41:28 <stassats> my arm is faster than that
10:41:52 <Zhivago> Yes, but your arm is probably better designed to handle torque acceleration, etc.
10:42:52 <jdz> 300ms is pretty huge for real-time; 0.25ms is closer to a real constraint
10:43:47 <anannie> stassats: I have a distance sensor capable of sensing things in an envelope of 100 cm, I came up with the 300ms figure through back of the envelope calcs. That's the time it needs to poll sensor data, sense the obstacle, change the trajectory and alter course
10:43:50 <H4ns> real time is not so much about "fast", but more about "within the real time allocated"
10:44:53 <anannie> stassats: Each step in that from sensing, to calculation, to altered actuation needs to occur within that 300ms envelope or I end up hitting someone
10:44:58 <Zhivago> That's why there are very few actual real time systems, generally speaking people settle for 'probably being excessively fast'
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10:47:09 <hajovonta> if you have an inaccurate clock, even "slow" may mean "real-time"
10:47:16 <anannie> Zhivago: To be clear by "real-time" I mean something that allows code to be executed in accordance with a clock
10:47:25 <Zhivago> Sure, I understand.
10:47:42 <Zhivago> And you're not going to get that using a lisp system.
10:48:03 <Zhivago> But you'll be able to get the probability of not doing so down to some ridiculously small value.
10:49:01 <hajovonta> you can do code execution really fast, which may not be "real-time" but you can be within your timeframe.
10:49:02 <Zhivago> If you want to prove it, you'll have to more or less control things down to the interrupt level, and then do a huge bodge of static code analysis.
10:49:57 <anannie> Well the traditional choice of C + ASM might be better in that case
10:50:24 <Zhivago> Except for the proving bit, sure.
10:50:58 <Zhivago> But you need to work out what your requirements actually are -- what a reasonable probability of a scheduling failure may be.
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10:51:40 <Zhivago> And it won't be zero, because you can always have hardware failure.
10:51:53 <anannie> Zhivago: Scheduling failure means drift, drift means additional corrections to either fix it or undesirable consequences. The arm is meant to pick up and handle lab equipment
10:52:11 <Zhivago> No. Scheduling failure means that you don't complete your operation within the real-time window.
10:52:13 <phadthai> of course a lisp toolchain could still be used to generate that realtime asm/c code, running without gc unpredictability, which would be hard-realtime but also different from running a lisp runtime
10:52:15 <anannie> Zhivago: Yes, that's why I'm designing things around a control system
10:52:30 <Zhivago> That may mean that the arm keeps on spinning and smashes your table into small pieces.
10:52:44 <Zhivago> If it's reasonable to do that once every billion years, then you have a starting point.
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10:53:15 <Zhivago> So work out what probability you require for completing your operations within your real-time window is required.
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10:54:21 <anannie> Zhivago: Let's say that it doesn't rotate by .3 degrees in the given time frame, that failure will either need to be corrected or left to be. If it's left to be then over-time the mistakes will accumulate resulting in a large amount of drift between the actual arm position and what the code thinks the arm position is
10:54:30 <anannie> Zhivago: The obvious way around that is sensing
10:55:24 <Zhivago> That's irrelevant to this.
10:55:50 <anannie> Zhivago: That requires a control loop, however control loops work such as PIDs work best if they are called at regular intervals. Even most kalman filters need to be called at regular intervals to work properly
10:56:19 <anannie> Zhivago: How so? These are the constraints of my system and I need to ensure that any possible solution I pick up accounts of these details
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10:56:51 <Zhivago> It's irrelevant because it isn't talking about the probability of completing some task within some time-frame.
10:57:13 <Zhivago> You can have position sensing feedback in any system, real-time or not.
10:57:23 <anannie> ??
10:57:38 <Zhivago> What you need to do is to work out the acceptable probability of not completing some task within some time-frame.
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11:02:18 <anannie> Zhivago: Okay, I went and read up about your real-time system and to be more accurate, I have a hard real-time system
11:02:33 <anannie> Zhivago: missing a deadline equates to system failure
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11:03:40 <Zhivago> Well, then you're in for a world of hurt.
11:03:50 <anannie> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synchronous_programming_language <--- This is what I desire
11:04:05 <Zhivago> Say hello to your friends 'assembly' and 'interrupt vector'.
11:04:11 <Zhivago> Good luck. :)
11:04:24 <stassats> anannie: you want to write a new programming language too?
11:04:42 <anannie> stassats: Nope, I just want to get the job done...
11:04:50 <Zhivago> But I truely suspect that you are completely wrong about that.
11:04:54 <stassats> then why do you want to use lisp?
11:05:05 <Zhivago> And I suggest, again, then you figure out what the acceptable rate of failure is.
11:05:21 <Zhivago> (Which you need to do anyhow, since your hardware is subject to it)
11:05:28 <anannie> stassats: Because I was convinced by someone that it would be better if the system stack was in lisp so that we could integrate better AI code later on
11:05:37 <anannie> Zhivago: The hardware is pricey
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11:06:31 <Zhivago> anannie: So what?
11:07:00 <anannie> Zhivago: ... and I'm poor. So I can't afford it if I manage to destroy a machine
11:07:55 <stassats> anannie: does that person have any experience with such things?
11:08:04 <stassats> or just equates AI with lisp?
11:08:31 <Zhivago> anannie: Do you believe that hardware does not fail?
11:09:02 <stassats> do like shuttle does (did), have three computers!
11:09:06 <stassats> they also have an arm
11:09:15 <anannie> stassats: Yes, he does
11:09:39 <stassats> anannie: then why don't you consult him?
11:10:20 <stassats> just ask what kind of a lisp system did he use for a real-time system
11:10:27 <anannie> stassats: Oh I will, I'm just doing all of my homework... Including this paper; http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/stamourv/papers/picobit.pdf
11:11:57 <stassats> the abstract says it's about memory constraints, not real-timeness
11:12:56 <anannie> stassats: Yes, that's why I asked over here if anyone knew about a hard real-time lisp implementation for embedded systems
11:14:13 <anannie> http://www.franz.com/services/conferences_seminars/jlugm00/conference/Talk14_takeuchi.pdf <--- that's coming close...
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11:15:22 <stassats> just find an implementation with a real-time GC
11:15:25 <Zhivago> Don't confuse hard real time with "hard" real time. :)
11:15:41 <Zhivago> "hard" real time is reasonably easy.
11:16:08 <Zhivago> And ... again, you'll need to figure out the acceptable probability of failure ...
11:16:10 <stassats> and the one which traps on expensive computations, like going from fixnums to bignums, etc.
11:16:29 <stassats> better yet, which allows you to prove that it won't do that
11:19:16 <Ue> Zhivago: It sounds like you are comparing programming and prison.
11:21:41 <Zhivago> Only if you're doing hard real time. :)
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11:53:17 <hajovonta> question: i need to use sockets in my application, which library would you recommend?
11:53:28 <stassats> usocket or iolib
11:55:51 <hajovonta> i tried both. i couldn't load iolib with quicklisp, so i turned to usocket, and started to read documentation. i can't find host name resolving in the doc; is it possible that usocket doesn't have this?
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11:56:16 <hajovonta> or maybe in some other libraries i could find this capability?
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11:56:31 <Xach> iolib normally loads with quicklisp. what happened when you tried?
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11:57:47 <hajovonta> Socket error in "gethostbyname": 11001 (Nincs ilyen ismert állomás.)
11:57:47 <hajovonta>    [Condition of type SB-BSD-SOCKETS:SOCKET-ERROR]
11:57:47 <hajovonta>  
11:58:06 <hajovonta> (error msg in hungarian)
11:58:24 <hajovonta> so i got this error when (ql:quickload "iolib.sockets")
11:58:43 <hajovonta> and then i have abort and retry :)
12:00:03 <Xach> What does nincs ilyen etc mean?
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12:00:18 <hajovonta> something like "no host found by this name" or such
12:00:40 <Xach> All files are fetched from one host, beta.quicklisp.org. If you can't resolve that host then you can't get anything via quicklisp.
12:00:43 <hajovonta> or "unknown host"
12:01:01 <hajovonta> i can load usocket without problems
12:01:06 <hajovonta> with quicklisp
12:01:40 <Xach> Do you get that socket error every time you try to load iolib.sockets?
12:01:47 <hajovonta> yes!
12:01:59 <hajovonta> i tried for at least 4-5 times
12:02:18 <hajovonta> i even tried to restart sbcl
12:02:18 <Rich_Morin> I installed SBCL, Quicklisp, and McCLIM on a couple of Mac OS X systems (10.6.8 and 10.7.5). When I try to run a CLIM app, I get a SB-BSD-SOCKETS:HOST-NOT-FOUND-ERROR nastygram.  I suspect that I have a missing or broken setting, but I'm not sure how to track it down.  See http://pastie.org/8030070 for details.  Help?
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12:04:37 <hajovonta> i must add that i'm using windows
12:04:57 <Krystof> Rich_Morin: hm, I would have said that that had been fixed in some clx distributions
12:05:15 <Krystof> the issue is how OS X supports starting X11
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12:05:47 <Krystof> a quick workaround is something like: start X11 manually, then start your Lisp with DISPLAY=:0.0 in your environment
12:05:58 <Krystof> there are probably better workarounds but it's years since I've thought about this
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12:06:31 <Xach> The payoff of getting CLIM working seems a bit meager.
12:06:57 <Rich_Morin> In this case, I'm trying to use an app that depends on it.
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12:09:16 <Rich_Morin> Krystof: So, for example, put "export DISPLAY=:0.0" in .bash_profile?
12:09:40 <Krystof> yes, for example (and you'll have to start a new shell for that to take)
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12:09:58 <Rich_Morin> cool; thx!
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12:12:36 <fe[nl]ix> hajovonta: iolib doesn't work on windows
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12:14:46 <hajovonta> fe[nl]ix: thanks, i didn't know that
12:14:58 <hajovonta> i have included a backtrace anyway: http://paste.lisp.org/display/137538
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12:16:48 <Xach> hajovonta: That is bizarre. If that doesn't work, no new libraries in quicklisp should work either. I don't think it's related to iolib.
12:17:17 <hajovonta> hm
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12:17:42 <hajovonta> is there anything i can try?
12:17:54 <Xach> does (ql:update-all-dists) signal an error too?
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12:18:31 <hajovonta> yes
12:18:52 <hajovonta> on what port quicklisp tries to communicate?
12:19:03 <Xach> HTTP. Do you have a proxy or firewall involved on your network?
12:19:08 Harag [~Thunderbi@105-236-32-147.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp
12:19:22 <Xach> It seems like DNS resolution might be locally broken?
12:19:27 <hajovonta> i'm behind a corporate firewall
12:20:27 <hajovonta> is there a way to force quicklisp to use a proxy?
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12:20:58 <Xach> hajovonta: I think (setf (ql-config:config-value "proxy-url") "http://proxy.value.here") might do it for you.
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12:21:27 <Xach> There is also a special variable, I'm not sure if it's updated by that form or not. If not restarting SBCL should make it work.
12:21:55 <hajovonta> can i put "localhost:8080" as proxy-url?
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12:22:24 <Xach> With a "http://" prefix, yes, I think that will work.
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12:25:25 <hajovonta> Xach: thanks for the help, i'm convinced the problem is dns-related
12:25:55 <hajovonta> but the command you provided didn't help, because quicklisp still tries to resolve the name, and there is no dns available
12:26:14 <hajovonta> but i must find a solution outside lisp
12:26:26 <Xach> hajovonta: the localhost name?
12:26:47 <hajovonta> no, i think beta.quicklisp.org
12:26:56 <Xach> Does (setf ql-http:*proxy-url* "http://localhost:8080/") help?
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12:30:22 <hajovonta> yes, it helped somewhat. :-)
12:30:28 <hajovonta> now i have this: http://paste.lisp.org/display/137539
12:31:13 <stassats> that just says "there was an error"
12:31:15 <Xach> I think the actual error may be visible somewhere in the output log, but I'm not sure, sorry.
12:31:35 <hajovonta> (ql:update-all-dists) now works, it says i have the latest version.
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12:32:14 <hajovonta> thanks anyway, i wasn't aware of the proxy problem
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12:32:29 <Xach> It's progress, glad to hear it.
12:33:11 <hajovonta> brb
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13:04:47 <antoszka> fe[nl]ix: (aroundp)
13:05:31 <fe[nl]ix> hi antoszka
13:06:38 <antoszka> fe[nl]ix: hi, may I /query you with a somewhat off topic thing?
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13:09:12 <fe[nl]ix> sure
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13:55:06 <hitecnologys> When I execute (salza2:compress-data #(1 2 3) (make-instance 'salza2:deflate-compressor)) it says me that data is not simple array with element-type - (unsigned-byte 8). How can I fix this? I need to compress concatenated arrays but I can't find such option for concatenate to change output element-type.
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13:55:55 <Xach> hitecnologys: (make-array 3 :element-type '(unsigned-byte 8) :initial-contents '(1 2 3)) is one way.
13:56:10 <Xach> hitecnologys: you can create an array of the right size and use REPLACE to copy data in
13:57:06 <stassats> (concatenate '(simple-array (unsigned-byte 8) (*)) ...)
13:57:33 <Xach> yeah
13:57:48 <hitecnologys> Wow, this works. Thanks, stassats
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14:06:57 <Denommus> hi
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14:09:29 <hajovonta> Denommus: hello
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14:18:05 <gendl> so there doesn't appear to be a #lispnyc or is there? named something else?
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14:18:48 <hajovonta> create it
14:19:15 <Xach> gendl: I don't think so. I think the lispnycers use facebook and other stuff to communicate.
14:19:23 <Xach> there's a lispnyc page there that sees somewhat frequent updates.
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14:36:26 <hajovonta> goodbye tomorrow
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14:39:07 <rpg> Although it feels graceless to complain about a free service: Going back to sourceforge to do some project maintenance is bewildering, frustrating, and unpleasant.
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14:40:46 <dlowe> I'm a long-time sf hater, myself
14:41:07 -!- vi1 [~vi1@93.92.216.186] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
14:41:08 <stassats> i started hating it before it was cool to hate it!
14:41:23 <H4ns> i never know where to click, so i click "close tab" mostly
14:43:57 <rpg> It's only gotten uglier and less intuitive as time goes by.
14:44:26 <stassats> they recently changed all the git urls
14:44:28 <stassats> just for fun
14:44:29 <rpg> What is it about free web services these days?  Seems like they are all redoing their interfaces to.... suck.
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14:45:23 <rpg> Skype, google, sourceforge, what is it with them all?  It's a good reminder not to rely to heavily on something you don't pay for.
14:45:29 <rpg> s/to/too/
14:45:56 <rpg> s/too/to/
14:46:02 <rpg> s/to heavily/too heavily/
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14:46:19 <stassats> or maybe you're just getting older
14:46:21 <dlowe> github still rocks
14:46:23 <rpg> weird.  my irc client just started interpreting spelling corrections.
14:46:26 <rpg> dlowe: for now.
14:46:39 <dlowe> easier to migrate off of github
14:46:45 <pkhuong> time to start charging for SBCL.
14:46:55 <rpg> stassats: I was getting older even before sourceforge started to really suck...
14:46:58 <dlowe> wouldn't that cease to destroy the industry?
14:47:26 <stassats> pkhuong: we would have to stop making buggy releases then
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14:48:34 <rpg> stassats: No, you'd just have to have them in a convention hall and invite journalists!
14:49:06 <patrickwonders> SBCL swag!
14:49:24 <pkhuong> stassats: betas. We could even charge extra for developer licenses that let people experience bugs before everyone else!
14:51:11 <rpg> I think you have to include big bloppy icons and tons of rounded rectangles, too.  Seems like all the cool kids are doing that....
14:51:47 <Denommus> I wish I had some coffee
14:52:34 <SoupBone> ok so I just started learning Clisp and while working through the code in my book I typed in some code to the interperter wrong and ended up with some choises, They were listed as :R1 :R2 ect ect. How do I chose one of theses options ... I tried the Fkeys, number keys and even tried some of the alphabetic keys ... wtf?
14:52:51 <rpg> type ":R1"?
14:53:14 <SoupBone> tryied that
14:53:18 <SoupBone> I'm using GNU Clisp 2.49 if that helps
14:53:25 <Denommus> SoupBone: SS?
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14:53:39 <Denommus> SoupBone: I mean, could you pase a screenshot?
14:54:10 <SoupBone> I'm new to irc ... how would I do that?
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14:54:51 <Denommus> host it in imgur
14:55:29 <stassats> the language is called Common Lisp, not Clisp
14:55:34 <SoupBone> ok to make things simple I just opened my interperter and typed in (this is gona mess up)
14:55:40 <SoupBone> the response I got was
14:55:46 <Denommus> stassats: but he is using Clisp, to be fair
14:55:53 <SoupBone> EVAL: undefined function ThIS
14:56:01 <SoupBone> The following restarts are available:
14:56:06 <stassats> don't paste here
14:56:10 <Denommus> don't paste everything
14:56:15 <Denommus> this is a flood
14:56:29 <stassats> SoupBone: http://paste.lisp.org/new
14:56:37 <Denommus> paste it in paste.lisp.org and send us the link
14:58:46 <wbooze> SoupBone: just say :r1 :r2 or :a for abort
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14:59:21 <Denommus> but, trying to help: you tried to call a function that doesn't exist. A "restart" is a kind of signal you send back to the error to tell it what to do
14:59:37 <wbooze> :r1 is an option like continue is
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15:00:10 <Denommus> SoupBone: more information on restarts and how Lisp handles error: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/beyond-exception-handling-conditions-and-restarts.html
15:00:11 <wbooze> :r1 will suggest you something then :r2 will suggest another action etc.....so you can just choose :r2 if that's what you want
15:00:34 <wbooze> and reading your implementations docs would be another option.....
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15:01:49 <Denommus> SoupBone: of course, the book is talking about how to handle errors from INSIDE the program. When you're in a REPL, how to send a restart depends on your implementation
15:02:06 <SoupBone> http://paste.lisp.org/+2Y4M
15:03:18 <Denommus> SoupBone: you could abort (:R4), and then typing the correct command
15:03:20 <surrounder> f
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15:03:35 <SoupBone> <Denomus> I understand the options, I'm just unsure as to how to choose one or the other ..... I'v tried everything I can think of
15:04:08 <H4ns> SoupBone: type :r4
15:04:14 <H4ns> colon r four return
15:04:26 <SoupBone> Tried that last night?
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15:04:32 <H4ns> SoupBone: "so?"
15:04:44 <H4ns> SoupBone: why don't you try it now to see how well it works?
15:05:14 <SoupBone> ok I'll try it again .... with the same result as last night .. unless my programs are mutating
15:05:42 <H4ns> SoupBone: maybe try it, like, right now?
15:05:42 <SoupBone> well I'll be dammed
15:06:00 <SoupBone> <H4ns> I just ate my own words ... thank you
15:06:07 <SoupBone> I stand corrected
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15:06:51 <SoupBone> I could have sworn I tryied that last night though ... I guess this is why one should not programmm while super sleepie
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15:10:22 <wbooze> why not try :h for help ?
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15:10:34 <wbooze> it will list all the other options you can use.....
15:10:42 <wbooze> like :c for continue etc.....
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16:19:19 *Xach* tries to find ThomasH
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16:26:25 <photex> Hi folks! Yesterday I was introduced to Cells and Cells-gtk
16:26:40 <photex> sadly the homepage for Cells seems to have evaporated
16:27:15 <photex> Is my choice for docs just the source now? :)
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16:32:10 <rpg> photex: Personal opinion: the Garnet project from CMU did Cells in a much more serious, sustained, and solid way.  see sourceforge "garnetlisp" project.  Needs a bit of love, but compare what you get in terms of documentation....
16:32:50 <photex> thanks rpg, I'll read up on this
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16:34:06 <rpg> photex: see https://sourceforge.net/projects/garnetlisp/files/docs/
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16:51:13 <hitecnologys> Was there something brand new added in sbcl since 1.1.4? I didn't monitor new updates and just compiled and installed 1.1.8 and there are so much code updated. Just bugfixes?
16:52:32 <photex> also, re: my question about the -> and ->> macros from clojure: https://github.com/nightfly19/cl-arrows
16:52:32 <photex> totally a part of quicklisp already ;)
16:52:49 <stassats> hitecnologys: optimizations, new features, bug fixes, new bugs
16:53:42 <hitecnologys> stassats: sounds nice, thanks.
16:54:02 <brucem> rpg: has anything happened with kr from garnet in the last 10+ years?
16:54:46 <stassats> hitecnologys: if you want less bugs, get f44f6d1adbaaa7057f1948369299c0b2a08bcd6e revision
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16:57:16 <hitecnologys> stassats: nope, I'm ok with lots of bugs, I mostly report if I accidentally found one. Still didn't find anything from last time I reported (about some osx tests passing problem).
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16:58:32 <stassats> then use the latest git revision, not 1.1.8
16:58:41 <stassats> if you're not afraid of bugs
16:58:59 <stassats> (though it's probably less buggy than 1.1.8 right now anyway)
16:59:11 <hitecnologys> stassats: 51bc001b7a98af096af782a672389e51004af068 latest?
16:59:48 <hitecnologys> I compiled HEAD but I fetched code about a day ago.
17:00:03 <stassats> not, that's not the latest
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17:00:32 <hitecnologys> Ah, compilation... Again...
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17:00:54 <stassats> you'll be recompiling everyday if you want the latest
17:01:34 <hitecnologys> stassats: I usually recompile every week or two, just want latest for this moment.
17:01:52 <hitecnologys> weird, git pull => "Already up-to-date."
17:02:02 <stassats> the git url changed
17:02:11 -!- luis changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language <http://paste.lisp.org/new>. New: CFFI 0.11.2, SBCL 1.1.8
17:02:23 <stassats> git://git.code.sf.net/p/sbcl/sbcl
17:02:24 <hitecnologys> Ah, I'm just slow
17:02:28 -!- smazga [~acrid@64.55.45.194] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
17:02:50 <luis> is it worth bothering to announce releases while the quicklisp conspiracy is going on?
17:03:09 -!- stassats changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language <http://paste.lisp.org/new>. New: SBCL => git://git.code.sf.net/p/sbcl/sbcl, CFFI 0.11.2, SBCL 1.1.8
17:03:26 <stassats> (thanks, sourceforge)
17:03:50 <hitecnologys> stassats: fetched updates successfully, thanks again.
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17:05:33 <hitecnologys> stassats: 02f7f85a6554b1ec233e9a515c4c511fe092565e, I hope this one is latest?
17:06:51 <stassats> yes
17:06:55 <stassats> for now
17:07:26 <hitecnologys> o.
17:07:30 <hitecnologys> ok
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17:08:22 <hitecnologys> (Damn fingers hurt, I fell from my bike a few days ago, so I miss keys sometimes)
17:08:35 *stassats* managed to break his sbcl tree substantially
17:08:50 <stassats> note: don't try to change 1000 lines of code without recompiling once
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17:10:46 <hitecnologys> Oh, the largest project I've ever maintained was about 2.5k-3k lines long. Changing 1k lines for me is like rewriting everything.
17:11:16 <hitecnologys> But it was on C++, not on lisp.
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17:13:40 <stassats> sbcl has ~300KLOC, so one thousand is small
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17:17:17 <hitecnologys> stassats: I know. I always wondered how people maintain such a big projects.
17:18:21 <dlowe> hopefully, the big project is structured such that small changes are local
17:18:45 <dlowe> though I've seen projects in the tens of millions of lines that were not structure so
17:19:03 <dlowe> then it gets expensive
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17:19:30 <hitecnologys> For me sbcl is like modern CPUs: I know how old one worked and even tried to assemble my own simple processor, but i3, i5 and stuff are complete blackboxes.
17:19:35 <stassats> some parts of sbcl are easy, while get around easy parts, you learn about the harder ones
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17:20:41 <hitecnologys> stassats: I tried to read sbcl assembler code once, then my mind blew up
17:21:10 <hitecnologys> stassats: maybe I'm just too young for this things
17:21:39 <stassats> it takes practice and patience
17:22:25 <stassats> and sbcl could use some better documentation
17:23:10 *rszeno* maybe the dissasembler can be improved, lisp is programable, :)
17:23:45 <stassats> improved into what? outputting mips instructions instead of x86 instructions?
17:24:36 <hitecnologys> Btw, is it possible to somehow compile sbcl without sbcl? I just wonder if raspberry pi can run it.
17:24:41 <rszeno> displayin gas or a unified representation for multiple kinds of processors
17:25:17 <rszeno> or even translate to someting closer to lisp syntax
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17:25:45 <stassats> hitecnologys: it's possible to compile it with any portable common lisp, but you need an ARM backend for sbcl
17:25:50 <pkhuong> rszeno: why?
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17:26:04 <stassats> so, no, you can't run on raspberry pi without compiling
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17:26:20 <stassats> err
17:26:23 <stassats> without porting
17:26:45 <pkhuong> * not all implementations agree sufficiently well on the meaning of "common lisp" (:
17:26:50 <hitecnologys1> my ISP dropped connection, sorry
17:26:54 <rszeno> pkhoung, because when you read actual code you need to know asm for that specific proc
17:27:12 <stassats> ccl has lispy with cpu-agnostic registers disassembler
17:27:16 <stassats> it's unreadable
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17:27:28 <stassats> unless you only read such kinds of assembly
17:27:34 <pkhuong> rszeno: yes, much better to have to know asm specific to that lisp implementation.
17:28:52 <rszeno> pkhuong, sure but writing for many types of processors implies more knowledge, :)
17:30:13 <hitecnologys> rszeno: so, you become smarter with more knowledge. What's the problem?
17:30:59 <rszeno> spending more and more time with trivial things
17:31:06 <stassats> rszeno: you can't have a unified assembly, period
17:31:09 <pkhuong> rszeno: that's ok, you need to known the architecture's assembler to write a native code compiler for that architecture.
17:31:22 <stassats> you can't even reasonably interchange code between x86 and x86-64
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17:31:38 <rszeno> we don't become  smarters by knowing facts about processors but how they work
17:32:28 <rszeno> stassats, true, i was thinking to something like gas
17:32:35 <hitecnologys> rszeno: by studying assembler, you understand how processor work.
17:32:51 <hitecnologys> s/,//
17:33:44 <rszeno> hitechnologys, is different of knowing asm mnemonings
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17:34:24 <pkhuong> how does gas avoid that?
17:34:56 <hitecnologys> rszeno: what's the point of knowing mnemonics without knowing what they actually do?
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17:35:06 <rszeno> it unify syntax as i remember, i use it a long time ago
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17:36:05 <hitecnologys> rszeno: processor works differently, some of them have lots of instructions others don't have. That's why you just can't have unified assembler.
17:36:19 <rszeno> hitechnologys, knowing what is doing and how is knowledge, names of instr are just syntax
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17:37:18 <hitecnologys> rszeno: I can't imagine how is it possible to know mnemonics without understanding them
17:37:29 <rszeno> hitechnologys, all processores work in a similar way
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17:38:15 <Bike> not... really?
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17:38:30 <hitecnologys> rszeno: not similar enough, they just have similar things. Building are similar because they are made of bricks?
17:38:53 <rszeno> hitechonolgys, think to why you said is difficult to read it and try to imagine what help you need with it
17:39:17 <stassats> better syntax want help
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17:40:03 <stassats> for example, hitecnologys doesn't now that SAR X, 1 performance fixnum untagging
17:40:04 <rszeno> not only syntax but also meta information about contex
17:40:11 <stassats> s/now/know/
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17:40:23 <stassats> and s/want/won't/
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17:40:31 <stassats> bloody homonyms!
17:40:31 <pkhuong> s/performance/performs/
17:40:55 <stassats> and that's bloody M-/
17:41:42 <hitecnologys> Actually, I don't know any mnemonics for x86-64 at all except MOV, ADD and some simple stuff. =P
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17:42:16 <stassats> or CMP RBX, 537919511 is a comparison with NIL
17:42:19 <hitecnologys> I used to program for AVR but it was a long time ago, I don't remember lots of things.
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17:42:58 <hitecnologys> stassats: why 537919511?
17:43:11 <stassats> it's a memory address
17:43:12 <rszeno> nil address?
17:43:39 <stassats> it's in static space, which is fixed, and it includes tagging for lists
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17:44:36 <pkhuong> and for symbols.
17:44:38 <hitecnologys> So, every time I access nil I access the same nil?
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17:44:56 <stassats> naturally, NIL is one and only
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17:45:37 <hitecnologys> Cool.
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17:52:33 <luis> anyone with root at c-l.net around?
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17:58:59 <ehu> luis: i doubt it. what's up?
17:59:55 <luis> just wanted to enable SSI, shouldn't be too hard
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18:01:16 <ehu> actually, it's not using apache anymore
18:01:35 <ehu> nginx serves the pages now.
18:01:38 -!- runningskull is now known as zz_runningskull
18:02:06 <luis> ehu: I believe nginx supports SSI too
18:02:25 <ehu> that was my next question :-)
18:02:57 <luis> (hopefully using the same syntax; not sure)
18:03:05 gmcastil [~user@70-59-29-55.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp
18:04:06 <ehu> well, there is #common-lisp.net. Maybe there are root-holders there...
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18:04:54 <luis> will try that, thanks.
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18:15:36 <hitecnologys> Is there a right way to convert a byte array to fixnum? I use this code but I'm sure it's extremely wrong https://github.com/HiTECNOLOGYs/JAMS/blob/develop/src/types.lisp#L9
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18:16:45 <stassats> which endianness?
18:16:51 <ehu> hitecnologys: a byte array to a fixnum?
18:17:14 <hitecnologys> stassats: big-endian
18:17:30 <ehu> are you sure you don't mean integer?
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18:18:15 <stassats> hitecnologys: is it of a fixed size?
18:18:17 <hitecnologys> ehu: I'm think so. I have three types: short (2 bytes), integer (4 bytes) and long (8 bytes). Each is fixnum in lisp.
18:18:17 <ehu> or maybe my question should be: portably?
18:18:30 <hitecnologys> stassats: yep
18:19:02 <ehu> hitecnologys: really?I don't think it's guaranteed that each is a fixnum.
18:19:22 <ehu> 8 octets isn't a fixnum on sbcl
18:19:28 <stassats> 8 bytes is surely not a fixnum anywhere
18:19:43 <hitecnologys> stassats: ok, my mistake, sorry
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18:20:02 <hitecnologys> ehu: it should run on sbcl at least
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18:20:08 <ehu> neither is 4 octets on sbcl/x86-32
18:20:10 <dlowe> (loop for b across vector for result = 0 then (ash result 8) do (setf result (logior result b)) finally (return result))
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18:20:14 <dlowe> off the top of my head
18:20:21 <stassats> anyway, (setf (ldb (byte 8 0) integer) (aref vector 7)) is the fastest way
18:20:24 <hitecnologys> eldariof: it's signed
18:20:25 <stassats> everything unrolled
18:20:43 <dlowe> could probably be pared down more
18:21:13 <dlowe> actually, there's probably something in alexandria for it
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18:24:47 <rszeno> hitecnolgys, imo since it depends of the number of bytes and what type of number you want i guess you need few forms not only one, assambled using a dispatcher
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18:25:36 <rszeno> but could be a complication if you have a specific use case
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18:26:48 <stassats> hitecnologys: http://paste.lisp.org/display/137547
18:26:56 <hitecnologys> rszeno: I already have pretty nice converter for unsigned numbers and my signed version works but I don't thing it's nice because it looks ugly.
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18:29:01 <rszeno> nice/ugly is relative, :) imo speed/size/easy to maintain is a better metric
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18:29:35 <hitecnologys> rszeno: I prefer nice looking code to ugly code
18:29:44 <stassats> hitecnologys: just general protips: (ceiling (/ x 8)) => (ceiling x 8)
18:29:59 <hitecnologys> stassats: last expression sets sign, right?
18:30:05 <stassats> right
18:30:29 <hitecnologys> stassats: mask-field is exactly what I needed, thanks a lot
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18:31:41 <hitecnologys> types.lisp needs to be rewritten, definitely.
18:33:11 <hitecnologys> mask-field is like ldb but it preserves length?
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18:36:19 <stassats> clhs mask-field
18:36:19 <specbot> http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mask_f.htm
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18:37:07 <hitecnologys> stassats: I read clhs article, it doesn't mention that
18:37:27 <stassats> (mask-field bs n) ==  (logand n (dpb -1 bs 0))
18:38:37 <hitecnologys> ah, I didn't notice that
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18:45:28 <rpg> brucem: Garnet has been pretty stagnant, aside from a few minor bugfixes.  Key challenge from my PoV: needs work on back-ends, which I don't really understand that well (I mean the X, gtk, and whatever-they-are-calling-Apple-stuff-this-week).
18:46:19 <brucem> rpg: I'm only interested in kr ..
18:46:47 <rpg> brucem: I haven't really been thinking about it.  It's a little idiosyncratic, but mostly I think of it as "not broken."
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19:03:08 <samebchase> I have a function that I've designated as :toplevel for an image. Any format or print statements in the functions print to standard output. However, any functions called by this :toplevel function are not printing their format statements. Normally in a repl, everything gets printed fine, but with images, it's not working as expected. What's the best way to make those functions print their output as well?
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19:04:16 <stassats> are you line-bufferred? do you output new-lines?
19:04:31 <stassats> if not, finish-output
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19:07:59 <hitecnologys> why not force-output?
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19:09:38 <samebchase> http://paste.lisp.org/display/137548 <- this is the toplevel. For example, the "help" function prints some information to the screen. Where is the appropriate place to put a finish-output?
19:10:05 <stassats> case doesn't work like this
19:10:11 <samebchase> oh
19:10:27 <stassats> clhs case
19:10:27 <specbot> http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_case_.htm
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19:11:14 <stassats> it actually doesn't say there, but it uses EQL
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19:12:03 <rpg> Some commonly-used utility library must have a strcase macro, I would guess -- it's a common thing to want.
19:12:23 <Bike> yeah, there's string-case in quicklisp.
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19:13:16 <samebchase> okay so here the problem is that I'm depending on strings to be compared by eql, which is not the way to compare strings?
19:13:28 <Bike> yes.
19:13:46 <Bike> you can try (eql "hello" "hello") in the repl, it's probably NIL
19:14:08 <Bike> if you dn't want to use string-case, you can just use a cond, possibly in a simple convenicne macro
19:14:34 <samebchase> yeah. it's NIL
19:14:41 <stassats> (funcall (or (find "help" '(help status gen) :test #'string-equal) (constantly nil)))
19:14:53 <Bike> fan-cy
19:15:01 <stassats> (funcall (or (find "help" '(help status gen) :test #'string-equal) (error "none found"))
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19:15:48 <samebchase> hmm
19:16:12 <stassats> for arbitrary text (or (cdr (assoc "help" '(("help" . help) :test #'equal))) (error "none found"))
19:16:24 <Bike> that also gives you case insensitivity, hurrah
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19:19:35 <stassats> if you're in for the shortest: (funcall (read-from-string "help"))
19:19:39 <stassats> (and dumbest)
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19:19:45 <samebchase> I considered something like that
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19:20:01 <samebchase> , but if a user knows the names of any other symbols
19:20:13 <samebchase> then he/she can call arbitrary code, right?
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19:20:24 <dim> there's a string-case lib on quicklisp
19:20:32 <Bike> or just enter "#.(destroy-zig)"
19:20:39 <stassats> samebchase: nope, the user can call arbitrary code without knowing any symbols
19:20:45 <stassats> see Bike's answer
19:21:04 <Bike> setting up a table of available functions is the way to go.
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19:23:40 <samebchase> I'll just have an alist of available functions then
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19:39:45 <Denommus> what is this guy talking about (when he speaks about FLET)? http://www.reddit.com/r/lisp/comments/1g236c/hilow_levelness_of_cl_and_scheme/cag1yvm?context=1
19:40:18 <Denommus> AFAIK, I can't do (flet ((x (curry #'+ 2 3))) (x 1)), or anything similar
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19:41:00 <Xach> Denommus: (flet ((x (y) (funcall x y))) ...)
19:41:04 <Xach> (x 1)
19:41:29 <stassats> (flet ((x (&rest args) (apply #'+ 1 5 args))) (x 1 5))
19:41:52 <Denommus> I don't find it practical, nor expressive
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19:42:24 <Denommus> it's not equivalent to the Scheme version at all
19:42:27 <stassats> yes, i find (+ 2 3 1 5) more practical
19:42:49 <Denommus> stassats: of course. But this is just a didatical example
19:43:14 <Denommus> s/didatical/didactic/
19:44:10 <stassats> lisp-1 vs lisp-2 is a non-issue, it's so a minute difference, you won't notice it
19:44:38 <stassats> except you won't have stupid variable names in a lisp-2
19:45:10 <dlowe> especially if you have some sort of namespacing
19:45:15 <Denommus> it's not an issue, I agree. That's what I said in the end of my post
19:45:18 <dlowe> which scheme stupidly did not specify
19:45:29 <dlowe> but implementations provide
19:46:08 <Denommus> I was just making a point about "how people think"
19:46:45 <dlowe> I like to call it papply instead of curry, in any case
19:46:52 <stassats> and scheme is closer to the metal? come on
19:46:59 <dlowe> and where it's nice is when you want to pass in a function
19:47:16 <dlowe> (mapcar (papply #'= 5) '(1 2 3 4 5 6))
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19:47:32 <Denommus> stassats: exactly. This dichotomy between "machine language" and "human language" is stupid. This is not about the language, this is about how smart the compiler is
19:48:07 <stassats> what about call/cc? do machines think in terms of it?
19:48:26 <dlowe> though positional-lambda is a pretty neat solution to this: (mapcar (plambda (= :1 5)) ...)
19:48:28 <Bike> "that's basically like setjmp, right"
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19:49:37 <stassats> dlowe: just use (mapcar #'= '(1 2 3 4 5 6) '#1=(5 . #1#))
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19:50:07 <hitecnologys> How to specialize eql in method if argument is optional?
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19:50:19 <stassats> you can specialize only on required parameters
19:50:21 <Bike> can't specialize optionanl arguments
19:50:37 <hitecnologys> Ok, thanks.
19:50:39 <Denommus> stassats: your version is neat, but dlowe's solution seems more readable
19:50:42 <dlowe> stassats: because I don't hate humanity
19:50:54 <stassats> runtime: (mapcar #'= '(1 2 3 4 5 6) (let ((list (list 5))) (nconc list list)))
19:51:01 <Bike> also mapcar could technically not work on a cyclic list.
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19:51:45 <stassats> dlowe: and yet you use papply!
19:51:52 <stassats> or plambda
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19:52:50 <maxm> hurray, finished with swank snapshot.. Single-threaded, multi-threaded, whatever all works.. now on to get it rejected, so I can squash any farther altruistic impulses I have :-)
19:53:35 <dlowe> I don't use papply, actually. I do like plambda, though
19:53:49 <dlowe> I think because it's really obvious what it expands to
19:54:03 <stassats> in reality, i use plain old lambda, it expands to itself!
19:54:07 <stassats> (almost)
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19:54:58 <dlowe> Honestly, I've found that most times I use a lambda, it ends up growing to require its own function definition anyway
19:55:00 <Denommus> OP tired me
19:55:41 <stassats> in real reality, i use LOOP
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19:56:27 <hitecnologys> I almost never use lambdas because they usually grow to something big.
19:57:07 <hitecnologys> and I agree with stassats about real reality
19:57:30 -!- pjb` is now known as pjb
19:57:43 <Denommus> in fact, I love LOOP
19:57:54 <dlowe> mapping seems to be less buggy for me
19:58:01 <dlowe> bug-prone, I should say
19:58:13 <hitecnologys> LOOP is nice, who dislikes it?
19:58:19 <Denommus> I never experienced bugs with LOOP. But I'm a beginner
19:59:15 <dlowe> loop has some unsightly limitations. It's decent for what it does, certainly.
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20:01:31 <maxm> is slime mailing list still slime-devel@common-lisp.net? It seems has no activity since middle of may
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20:03:02 <hitecnologys> Is it possible to somehow iterate over list by two, three, etc elements? (ex (1 2 3 4) by 2 => (1 2) (3 4), (1 2 3 4 5 6) by 3 => (1 2 3) (4 5 6))
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20:03:24 <Denommus> hitecnologys: yes
20:03:31 <hitecnologys> Iterate using LOOP or something I mean.
20:03:32 <dlowe> (loop for (a b) on '(1 2 3 4 5) by #'cddr ...)
20:03:45 <Denommus> ^
20:03:58 <hitecnologys> dlowe: thanks.
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20:04:11 <Denommus> you can also do this with recursion, if you want to
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20:04:24 <Denommus> you simply use #'cddr instead of #'cdr
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20:06:00 <Denommus> http://www.reddit.com/r/lisp/comments/1g236c/hilow_levelness_of_cl_and_scheme/cag2vwh
20:06:15 <Denommus> yeah, the dude is really talking about how HE thinks about programming. Not very useful
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20:09:21 <hitecnologys> I personally have fixed length variables in my head, not very flexible but works. Sometimes I get overflow but this is not a real problem.
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20:12:08 <hitecnologys> 3am, bedtime. Goodbye everyone!
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20:13:38 <Denommus> I find it funny when people say that C is "similar to the machine" when you talk about memory management
20:14:00 <Denommus> yes, you must worry about managing your memory, but C is well-succeeded BECAUSE it has powerful abstractions for that
20:14:17 <dlowe> I find it funny for different reasons.
20:14:24 <Denommus> (I don't intend to start a discussion on C, only a side-note about that thread)
20:14:27 <dlowe> It's no longer really similar to the machines we use now.
20:14:42 <pkhuong> I'm with dlowe.
20:14:58 <Denommus> indeed. That's another reason to find it funny
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20:27:03 <pjb>  Denommus: if you care to comment on redit, note that on some computers, (eg. the 1401, the S35, etc), numbers don't have fixed size, but like any other data in memory, can be of any length.  processor instructions just process them with multiple cycles.  This is what allowed those old machines to do accounting, with precision much higher than 32-bit float or integer  COBOL is basically closer to the hardware than C, on those machin
20:27:22 <Xach> pjb: how's the library fixes coming along?
20:27:47 <pjb> So, it's not surprizing that on a machine where data could be of any length, you get COBOL, on a machine where you have a XEC instruction, you get LISP EVAL, and on a machine where you have what? you get C.
20:28:38 <pjb> Xach: had no time.  I'm installing ubuntu on a netbook to be able to work on the metro, 20 mn commute in, 20 mn commute out. Wage slave life is not a happy life :-(
20:30:09 <pjb> But it's on the top of my task list.
20:30:53 <Xach> ok
20:30:57 <pjb> That said, I mean, I'll try to do that, since I see Kristof doing it when working on sbcl, but really, I don't know if I'll be able, working in small slices like that.
20:31:14 <pjb> That's what's killing my productivity, not having long period of free time.
20:31:21 <Xach> This is a typo
20:31:25 <Xach> One-line fix
20:31:47 <pjb> Where?
20:32:26 <Xach> grep for :dispalced-index-offset
20:32:36 <pjb> It's already corrected.
20:33:13 <Xach> Ok! I'll look for the next problem then. clext and stepper are broken on sbcl.
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20:34:53 <dlowe> *falls out of chair* you're going to fix the sbcl stepper?
20:35:10 <pjb> Nope. cl-stepper, is a stepper implemented in conforming CL.
20:35:32 <pjb> I implemented it since ccl has no stepper, and I needed one to debug/understand a program.
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20:36:29 <Xach> No True Lisper needs a stepper!
20:37:00 <maxm> thats coz you have no awesome logging library :-)
20:37:09 <stassats> i step in my head, while sleeping
20:37:10 <pjb> Well, it's also a tracer and an explainer.  You could use (step some-form :trace t) to show a newbie how some-form is evaluated.
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20:37:50 <maxm> to zoom into a problem like ... well we could hold "stupid analogy content" for that
20:38:13 *maxm* actually noticed problem with Lisp in general is too much info
20:38:32 <pjb> Ok so for reference, com.informatimago.common-lisp compiles and loads with quicklisp with no message on sbcl "1.0.57.0.debian". But I hear it's with a recent version of sbcl the problem occurs.  Installing the sbcl of the day
20:38:58 <maxm> ie look at SBCL compilation, its amazing you can extract anything useful from it at all
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20:39:21 <pjb> Well, really, the lastest release is 1.0.58
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20:39:36 <Xach> 1.0.58 is very, very old.
20:40:13 <pjb> And funnily, it runs very well in the terminal, but not at all well in slime, with a lot of //string-ouch and so on.
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20:40:27 <pjb> What sbcl do you use?
20:40:52 <maxm> Xach: thats the problem with having everything working. You go on rely on stuff just working magically so much, can't upgrade coz newfangled things break all shortcuts you made
20:40:53 <pjb> Oh I see, it's sbcl.sourceforge.net web page that's not updated. Download is 1.1.8/
20:41:04 <Denommus> the guy on that thread really don't understand a lot about abstraction. He thinks that, because Lisp's parser is thinner than C's, then it is "closer to the metal". Wat.
20:41:14 *maxm* still uses kind of old commonqt, and horribly out of date clx too
20:41:19 <Bike> sounds like a pretty boring thread
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20:42:04 <Denommus> it is. I don't know why I'm still giving it attention
20:42:35 *maxm* is getting no traction at all wit his smartass comments, I'll go play a game or something instead
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20:48:16 <pjb> compiling sbcl 1.1.8 ; cc -fno-omit-frame-pointer -I../src/runtime   determine-endianness.c  -ldl -o determine-endianness --> clang: error: unable to execute command: No such file or directory
20:48:16 <pjb>  
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20:48:51 <maxm> I see you have no see see
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20:49:01 <pjb> I have clang as cc.
20:49:05 <Xach> pjb: I recommend downloading a binary from www.sbcl.org
20:49:09 <pjb> Or rather, debian has.
20:49:18 <pjb> Well, I'm installing gcc. I like GPL anyways.
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20:50:45 <maxm> also I hope you doing it in a diff directory from your main SBCL.. I get bitten by "compile sbcl, forget i'm compiling it in same directory where host compiler is, if anything went wrong, I got no SBCL.. And compiling with CLISP had to be aborted after like 2 hours :-)
20:51:11 <pjb> Yep, I have a script to take care of that :-)
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20:51:19 <Xach> www.sbcl.org binaries are so fresh and so clean
20:51:32 <pjb> Trusting trust etc.
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20:51:45 <Denommus> pjb: what OS do you use?
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20:52:22 <pjb> debian 7.0
20:52:22 <pjb>  
20:52:41 <pjb> In what dpkg is /bin/time  in debian?
20:52:54 <Denommus> no idea
20:53:08 <rszeno> apt-file find time
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20:53:38 <rszeno> or dpkg -S /bin/time
20:53:43 <pjb> That's the problem with debian, there are a bazillion different utilities to manage the packages :-(
20:54:21 <rszeno> no, is only one but you can find in many ways
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20:54:36 <pjb> apt-cache search doesn't find it.
20:54:37 <rszeno> pjb, i suspect you want /sbin/time
20:54:47 <rszeno> not cache apt-file
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20:54:58 <pjb> Yes, I'm installing it.
20:55:06 <rszeno> or dpkg -S /sbin/time
20:56:07 <rszeno> pjb, sorry i was wrong
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20:56:22 <rszeno> which time --> /usr/bin/time
20:56:26 <pjb> found the package named time. Wonder why apt-cache couldn't find it.
20:56:41 <rszeno> then dpkg -S /usr/bin/time --> time
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20:57:15 <rszeno> is builtin in bash abd apt-cache is not too smart
20:58:15 <rszeno> s/abd/and/
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21:01:49 <rszeno> pjb, i use to delay installation of stable since is relative mature
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21:05:03 <pjb> compiling
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21:09:41 <pjb> ; compilation unit aborted
21:09:41 <pjb> ;   caught 1 fatal ERROR condition
21:09:41 <pjb>  
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21:12:23 <rszeno> pjb, you use dpkg-buildpackage or manualy?
21:12:34 <pjb> manually.
21:12:48 <pjb> since debian has only 1.0.57.
21:14:34 <rszeno> is a pain, they do a lot of trick, divert and such and you end with a lot of admin work and patches
21:16:03 <rszeno> in this cases i use to install from sources, your case 1.0.57, then get new stuff put instead and modify the scripts from debian dir
21:16:19 <rszeno> usualy only rules need changes
21:17:28 <rszeno> also i use to make patches in case in need to redo again the upgrade
21:17:36 <pjb> I don't care too much about distribution installed software. I compile and install my emacs and my lisps myself in my directories.
21:17:50 <pjb> it's just good for /usr/bin/clisp scripts
21:18:27 <rszeno> everything work together
21:19:06 <pjb> Well, sbcl-1.1.8 doesn't compile, there are a lot of errors.
21:19:08 <rszeno> manualy install means to broke dpkg/apt repo which is not realy robust
21:19:10 <moore33> pjb: Hey, are you running ccl on arm, on raspberry Pi or something?
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21:19:47 <pjb> I did yes, on an emulator. Then I got a Raspberry Pi, but no time anymore, so I gave it to a friend.
21:20:11 <pjb> http://www.informatimago.com/articles/raspberrypi/ccl-sur-qemu.html
21:20:40 <moore33> pjb: Yeah, I think I've seen that article. So it ran "ok" on the emulator?
21:20:49 <pjb> Yes.
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21:20:58 <moore33> That's great.
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21:24:20 <rszeno> anyway i don't think the problems are in sbcl but in debian and fixing take time, exactly what usualy we don't have
21:25:10 <pjb> I'm just compiling sbcl with gcc and sbcl-1.0.57.  I had the same kind of problems earlier with gentoo.
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21:26:59 <pjb> it starts with /DATUM="undefined ~(~A~): ~S" ARGUMENTS=(:FUNCTION PROPER-LIST-OF-LENGTH-P)/DATUM="undefined ~(~A~): ~S" ARGUMENTS=(:FUNCTION PROPER-LIST-OF-LENGTH-P)
21:27:27 <pjb> Well a single occurence.
21:28:03 <rszeno> then you suspect sbcl or gcc?
21:28:13 <rszeno> or both?
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21:49:51 <pjb> rszeno: I suspect sbcl it's the non moving part in those experiments :-)
21:50:50 <rszeno> is probably insbcl, (defun proper-list-of-length-p (x min &optional (max min))
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21:51:19 <pjb> Well, there are a lot of such errors, I think it's more fundamental a problem than that.
21:51:48 <rszeno> then is called with min and max in both relations, min < max and max > min
21:51:58 <maxm> I would make sure you running host compiler without any init files and stuff
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21:52:09 <maxm> coz your stuff I think has its own :CL package right?
21:52:48 <pjb> I made sure.
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21:53:14 <pjb> Remember, it's a script.  It used to compile sbcl <1.0.0
21:53:16 <rszeno> pjb, agree but is a track to follow, in 1.0.40 are only 28 occurences
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21:54:02 <maxm> then just forgot the script, go to clean directory, in fact do adduser "blah", change to freshly created user, download SBCL sources, sh make.sh
21:54:14 <maxm> I'm 100% sure it will build :-) bisect from there
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22:15:22 <pjb> it's the same with env -i
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22:24:41 <maxm> well, its a mystery all right, tell us once you figure it out :-) because my next few suggestions are 1. Someone replaced your nameserver to install a backdoor 2. Aliens
22:24:56 <pjb> :-)
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22:25:12 <pjb> I reported a bug.
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22:27:58 <jasom> Why are macros expanded from the outside-in rather than inside out?
22:28:15 <jasom> e.g. (foo (bar)) why is foo expanded before bar (assuming both are macros)?
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22:30:29 <maxm> because outer macros may establish local macros
22:30:38 <jasom> right
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22:31:44 <pkhuong> because the outer macro can do anything to its arguments.
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22:33:19 <Bike> (my-super-cool-let ((x 4)) x), you don't want ((x 4)) macroexpanded
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22:34:43 <ski> in some cases i would
22:35:09 <pkhuong> ski: that's what the environment argument is for.
22:37:16 <ski> hm, any example of how to use that ?
22:37:39 <Bike> (defmacro m-s-c-let (thing thing2 &environment env) (let ((whatever (macroexpand thing env))) ...))
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22:39:35 <ski> `env' is an environment keeping track of local macro bindings ?
22:39:49 <ski> (or really, any macro bindings in scope, i suppose)
22:39:54 <pkhuong> and non-macro bindings.
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22:41:06 <ski> hm, so you can check whether any given value or function identifier is in scope ?
22:41:23 <Bike> with cltl2, not with CL exactly
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22:42:23 <ski> ok, but it enables it, given extra operations for checking such
22:42:38 <ski> interesting
22:42:41 <Bike> well, it's syntactic information, yeah.
22:42:52 *ski* nods
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22:43:07 <Bike> the macroexpansion process has to keep track of bindings existing so that you can shadow macros with functions and such.
22:43:51 <ski> elaborate ?
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22:44:12 <Bike> (macrolet ((foo ...)) (flet ((foo ...)) (foo ...))) should be a call to the function, not a use of the macro
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22:55:45 <ski> Bike : i see
22:55:46 <ski> ty
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23:04:54 <Denommus> I just found out that Uncharted 2 uses a Lisp dialect for scripting. Do you think this would be a valid argument to my boss for using some ECL, or something similar, in our engine?
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23:05:45 <Bike> You can find slides of Naughty Dog's work there, iirc.
23:06:11 <Denommus> I found them already :)
23:06:52 <Bike> and also their earlier GOAL thing. though you probably know about that too.
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23:07:49 <bhyde> jasom: that's the _whole_ point functions are excited bottom up at runtime, while macros are top down at compile time.
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23:10:34 <pjb> Denommus: there should not be any need for an argument, to be able to link libecl.so into any program, just like you can link libjpeg.so or libz.so etc.
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23:11:23 <Denommus> pjb: well, there is. Other people
23:11:27 <pjb> :-)
23:11:48 <pjb> maxm: well, it seems that the problem is that I created a customize-target-features.lisp
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23:14:24 <pjb> Denommus: how is it other people can learn ruby, perl or python when they have to, and not lisp?
23:15:06 <Denommus> pjb: I don't know, I'm not other people
23:15:26 <Denommus> seriously, I really don't know. People seem terrified with the idea of learning Lisp
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23:17:35 *ski* thinks cbv macros might make sense, with some static classification of sub-forms
23:17:52 <ski> (and might be useful, then)
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23:18:29 <pkhuong> ski: what's next, hygiene? Alan Bawden had something like that to be able to apply macros (it's somewhere on c.l.l or c.l.s)
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23:21:57 <ski> hm, anything to narrow it down a bit ? (year,key words,other participants,&c. ?)
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23:23:41 <pkhuong> ski: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:yfoys3CsswQJ:www.bawden.org/mtt/+&cd=9&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ca sounds right
23:23:58 drmeister [~drmeister@h69-21-18-138.nwlnnh.dedicated.static.tds.net] has joined #lisp
23:24:25 <ski> ty
23:24:37 <pkhuong> Currently at http://people.csail.mit.edu/alan/mtt/.
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23:32:46 <maxm> to program in lisp, certain infrastructure needs to be in place.. Thats why Guile never took off, I mean I hacked extensively on GnuCash, but in the end it only uses Scheme so there is (map...) instead of a loop, otherwise code could have juts as well been written in Basic with goto's...
23:33:32 <maxm> what makes Lisp work, is interactivity.. Ie in emacs you can tweak stuff and try it, and same thing with Slime. But If you have to program in it as in C, suddenly its not as cool
23:34:08 <maxm> thats why even stupid ideas, that provide good interactivity (ie rails) take off
23:34:33 <jasom> IIRC Naughty Dog's GOAL had that interactivity as part of its infrastructure
23:34:43 <maxm> there is nothing more magic about it, then having ability to C-s in lets say Notepad, press F5, and see what youchanged right there
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23:35:35 <pjb> or that it's done automatically, like in eclipse which recompile as soon as it sees changes, or in lighttable.
23:35:37 <maxm> it has to be interactivity with the right tool. Ie if its like "we have our own IDE, yay", then it has to be an on level of features of Eclipse, Emacs or Visual Studio
23:36:05 <maxm> for PHP/Ruby and friends, its actually browser + editor of your choice, thats why they took off
23:36:10 <antoszka> pjb: are there plans to adapt lighttable to common lisp?
23:36:22 <maxm> coz everyone can make their own IDE out of favorite editor, Alt-tab key, and a browser
23:36:34 *maxm* does not get lighttable
23:36:45 <maxm> what I'm doing with CommonQt is light years ahead of it
23:36:48 <pjb> maxm: it's just a C-x C-e for clojure.
23:36:50 <maxm> and no special sauce needed
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23:37:42 <pjb> Now, somebody did in emacs, for clojure emacslisp and scheme something nice (nicer than lightable even).  When you write (f 42), it inserts (with overlays) the values near the parameters in the functions called.
23:37:54 <maxm> I cad stuff like (myApp.myWindow.getLayout.addButton "OK" (lambda () (log:info "hi")) and my qt app changes right there on the screen
23:38:02 <maxm> s/cad/can/
23:38:10 <pjb> maxm: but it's like Agile or all the hip stuff: it's only old stuff reformulated to the goût du jour.
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23:39:30 <maxm> imoh prob is, in Lisp land, there are 10 ppl have their own 10 cool projects like this
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23:39:54 <maxm> so lets say I look at your stuff, and go "meh, my is just as good"
23:39:55 <pjb> That's just not true.  We don't have enough time to do that.
23:40:11 <pjb> And otherwise, NIH is good for learning.
23:40:25 <maxm> but when in Java land, someone through trials and tribulation comes up with equivalent, because there are no 9 other projects like that, everyone goes gaga about it
23:40:55 <Denommus> the Lisp's "I can do that with macros" is a serious problem
23:41:07 <Denommus> not that being able to do macros is a real problem. No, that's awesome
23:41:15 <pjb> The kind of serrious problems you want to have IMO.
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23:41:31 <maxm> yes, "too easy" allows to slip into "good enough" code fast.. Polishing code is still as hard in Lisp as in other languages
23:41:34 <jasom> The problem is it's been done in 10 different incompatible ways in 10 different libraries with macros
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23:41:45 <maxm> Perl has same problem when you do things quick in it
23:41:47 <Denommus> the problem is that we can do lots and lots of things, but what about getting a bunch of folks together and actually do something?
23:41:53 <Denommus> every lisper is a lone wolf
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23:42:25 <Denommus> and I include myself in this
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23:42:37 <maxm> well, everyone does their own little project.. My project is way cool, but I won't be selling it.. If I have to sell it, then I actually failed ;-)
23:42:55 <Denommus> some ideas that I have are usually received with "meh", because probably it is "meh". But it could draw some attention, I dunno
23:43:02 <jasom> Denommus: well if you look at libraries in other languages, it's not uncommon to see 10 different libraries that do something; but language features are standardized; less stuff needs changes to the language to succeed in lisp
23:43:12 <maxm> but I try to release cool parts when I can split it out
23:43:20 <maxm> logging in that project got split off into log4cl
23:43:40 <Denommus> jasom: I agree
23:44:17 <Denommus> and I also agree with maxm's point. Prototyping in lisp is fast and easy. Polishing? Just as difficult as anywhere else
23:44:32 <maxm> common lisp is actually pretty standard, problem is most ppl don't like things that are in the standard, it feels kitchen sinkish a bit :-)
23:44:36 <pjb> I think even with opensource, you should distinguish software that's developed to be sold (or to be integrated into a product to be sold), from software developed on "free time".
23:44:58 <pjb> More often than not, commercial software (even open source AFAIK), is written without understanding it.
23:45:11 <pjb> It takes time to understand a program.
23:45:32 <pjb> There is a lot of pressure to just patch it Q&D to finish the sprint.
23:45:39 <Denommus> that's why I'd like to actually use Lisp in some work project that could be open sourced, like "the new hip web framework that can scale, is expressive, and you can correct it without restarting the server!"
23:45:40 <maxm> due to its history, it does not have same streamlined "everything ties together"-ess of lets say Elisp API, or JDK, or Python standard library, or Qt
23:45:43 <pjb> technical debt is just a word.
23:45:58 <jasom> maxm: not just kitchek sinkish, but kitchen sinkish for ~1990; no threads or sockets in the standard for instance; the path-system allows for DEC stuff that nobody uses any more
23:46:22 <pjb> That said, good night all.
23:46:31 <Denommus> good night
23:46:39 <jasom> Denommus: sounds like php :)
23:46:52 <jasom> (except the "hip" part)
23:46:53 <maxm> path stuff is actually robust, but unwieldly and hard to remember yea :-)
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23:47:19 <jasom> maxm: for certain definitions of robust; try listing a directory with a filename that contains a "*"
23:47:27 <Denommus> jasom: PHP? Expressive?
23:47:48 <maxm> but once you get past that, and get some "defacto" standard libs, alexandria, bt, iterate, suddenly you can go places
23:47:59 <maxm> cl-ppcre badly needs a very thin wrapper with better naming
23:48:17 <jasom> bt?
23:48:18 <maxm> scan -> re:string-match and such
23:48:20 <Denommus> cl-ppcre should have some special syntax, like Ruby's /regexp/
23:48:35 <maxm> bordeaux-threads thin wrapper for threading/synchronization things
23:48:42 <Denommus> because using Lisp's strings to represent perl's regexps is... ugly
23:48:54 <jasom> maxm: bt == bordeaux-threads, of course
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23:49:21 <maxm> Denommus: imho no need for special syntax even, just better naming.. Emacs does everything through regexp, and I remember all function names after months of not using them
23:49:28 <maxm> its just good API naming
23:49:34 <jasom> Denommus: #/ is undefined, but not specifically reserved for the user
23:49:47 <jangle> hey all.  I'm trying to construct an octet vector piecemeal, and I'm having difficulty.  I want to make the final vector from a hard coded octet vector, joined to a vector  made from a string, so (concatenate (make array *stuff*) (string-to-octets *string-stuff)
23:49:51 <pkhuong> Denommus: amazingly enough, it does!
23:49:55 <pkhuong> minion: cl-interpol
23:49:55 <minion> cl-interpol: No definition was found in the first 5 lines of http://www.cliki.net/cl-interpol
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23:50:09 <pkhuong> clhs concatenate
23:50:09 <specbot> http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_concat.htm
23:50:42 <jangle> concatenate doesn't let me specify a type any stricter than 'vector, so I don't know how to end up with the necessary format
23:50:46 <Denommus> pkhuong: #? ?
23:50:47 <pkhuong> jangle: the first argument to concatenate is the type of the result you want to have.
23:51:16 <maxm> jangle: make a wrapper macro, if you use iterate actually make it iterate clause.. (with-output-to-vector () ... (vcollect elem) (vcollect-subseq <seq> <start> <end>)) etc
23:52:09 <pkhuong> jangle: '(simple-array (unsigned-byte 8) 1) works here.
23:52:44 <pkhuong> Denommus: http://weitz.de/cl-interpol/#regular
23:52:59 <jangle> maxm: how do I specify what format that vector will be in?
23:53:05 <jangle> pkhuong: thanks I'll play with that
23:53:19 <maxm> jangle: you specify it in a macro, here is examle from my library https://github.com/7max/cl-maxlib/blob/master/maxlib.lisp#L128
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23:54:09 <maxm> its for iterate, so usage is (iterate ... (vcollect elem)).. But you can change vcollect to lets say 8bit-collect, or add extra clauses to specify type
23:54:31 <jangle> maxm: ok, I think I see what you mean
23:55:37 <maxm> jangle: I can't feel but think you doing webserver stuff.. Why don't you use the special stream thing, where you print strings, and utf-8 encoded byte-stream comes out?
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23:56:05 <maxm> both flexi-sterams and babel provide one, for babel you need to add a mixin for (stream-write-string), because trivial-grey-streams removed theirs
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23:57:31 <pkhuong> amazing... using clang to compile C++ or C code snippets in memory isn't *that* hard. I seem to have spent more time figuring the link order than anything else. Next step: call that from CL to generate wrappers dynamically.
23:58:13 <jasom> pkhuong: I've done something similar with libtcc
23:58:30 *maxm* plans to do something similar but had not had a need so far
23:58:35 <maxm> coz I just do massive caching
23:58:36 <jasom> pkhuong: with libtcc it was trivial (c interface, it's exactly what it's designed for)
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23:58:57 <jasom> libtcc doesn't support C++ though, which makes it less interesting
23:59:24 <Denommus> cl-interpol seems nice, indeed
23:59:29 <pkhuong> jasom: exactly. if it was only C, I'd stick to regular FFI. But for C++, I'm willing to consider less tasteful hacks.