00:03:05 Guest14094 [~ivan@143.106.196.227] has joined #lisp 00:11:11 -!- Shinmera [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:18:24 kanru [~kanru@173.243.46.194] has joined #lisp 00:21:40 dnolen` [~user@cpe-72-225-195-108.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:21:42 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-167.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:23:18 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-167.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 00:27:08 zRecursive [~czsq888@171.216.155.177] has joined #lisp 00:27:46 -!- davazp [~user@178.167.226.146.threembb.ie] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:34:10 sykopomp [~sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 00:35:00 -!- zz_runningskull is now known as runningskull 00:37:10 -!- dnolen` [~user@cpe-72-225-195-108.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:37:11 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-167.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:38:45 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-167.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 00:44:53 why does CLISP regards :FOO as a function in #.(cl:push :FOO *features*) ? 00:47:01 zRecursive: because that's read as the values of *features*, which is then a list beginning with :foo 00:47:09 -!- talas [~talas@136.144.16.62.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:48:31 Bike: but after (read), it works 00:49:17 what? 00:49:57 In REPL, (read) then #.(cl:push :FOO *features*) works without error 00:50:00 -!- quackv4 [~quack@vps-1058467-4367.manage.myhosting.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:51:25 that's because you're just reading it 00:51:29 try (eval (read)) 00:51:49 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-590c082a.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:51:57 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 00:52:20 error but :FOO is still pushed into *features* 00:55:33 yes 00:55:41 it pushes, and then the result of the push, which is *features*, is evaluated 00:57:48 I just want to push it into *features*, why evaluated later ? 00:58:17 because that's how #. works, the result of the push is fed to the evaluator 00:59:31 can i break it? 00:59:50 -!- runningskull is now known as zz_runningskull 00:59:56 -!- zz_runningskull is now known as runningskull 01:00:05 zRecursive: Why do you want to use #.? 01:01:12 Xach: do something during reading 01:01:33 #.(cl:progn (cl:push :foo *features*) nil) 01:01:41 unfortunately this will summon the wrath of demons 01:02:14 quackv4 [~quack@vps-1058467-4367.manage.myhosting.com] has joined #lisp 01:03:07 Bike: what are those wrath of demons ? 01:05:07 Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 01:06:29 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-70.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:07:30 zRecursive: why? 01:08:47 Xach: then what's the usage of #. ? 01:09:01 providing something to the evaluator 01:09:33 #.(generate-some-code) 01:10:00 breakds [~breakds@adsl-71-150-253-174.dsl.mdsnwi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:10:02 then same as macro ? 01:10:19 usually smaller scale 01:10:38 and it runs at read-time, which is before compile-time 01:11:35 then (cl:push :FOO *features*) occurs at read-time ? 01:11:47 i mean #.(cl:push :MPD *features*) 01:12:07 yes 01:12:38 if this is part of a file you can just do (eval-when (:compile-toplevel :execute) (push ...)) i guess 01:13:53 -!- scharan [~scharan@169.235.25.47] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.7] 01:14:32 Can the :FOO pushed at read time visible at other time for codes in a same file ? 01:15:14 "codes" that come after that read, yes 01:15:24 if you mean at read time then no 01:15:58 actually I forgot but there was some chicken and egg problem there, you can't affect form that was already read 01:16:23 scharan [~scharan@caps04.cs.ucr.edu] has joined #lisp 01:16:48 ok, the forms after that can use #+/- now ? 01:17:22 forms after that read, yes 01:17:30 i think you're probably doing something that's bad style, though 01:17:57 actually you can affect subsequent top level forms 01:18:36 but not the one you just read.. So you can't write something using a read macro that would do stuff like (toplevel-macro ...some custom reader syntax ...) 01:18:37 lifeng_ [~lifeng_@218.22.21.23] has joined #lisp 01:18:40 Bike: what i want is using #+FOO/#-FOO to surround some forms ... 01:19:37 that is if toplevel-macro the one manipulating the read table.. It need to be 2 separate top level forms 01:19:39 maxm: i see 01:19:50 1st setting up the reader, and next one using it 01:20:39 so (do-setup-reader-things ...anything here is not affected, because it already read before the do-setup-reader is called) (but subsequent form is now affected) 01:20:48 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 01:20:50 Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 01:21:09 ok 01:23:01 -!- scharan [~scharan@caps04.cs.ucr.edu] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.7] 01:23:15 scharan [~scharan@caps04.cs.ucr.edu] has joined #lisp 01:24:17 -!- lifeng_ [~lifeng_@218.22.21.23] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 01:27:21 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-70.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:27:57 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-70.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:28:24 -!- scharan [~scharan@caps04.cs.ucr.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:28:54 -!- jtza8 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[~user@unaffiliated/chu] has joined #lisp 04:53:44 -!- housel` is now known as housel 04:55:47 -!- yacks [~py@180.151.36.168] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:59:13 miql [~miql@ip72-201-117-127.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 05:08:45 yacks [~py@180.151.36.168] has joined #lisp 05:11:40 -!- miql [~miql@ip72-201-117-127.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:19:07 -!- sellout- [~Adium@pat-ip-195-91-108-117.flarion.as5628.telecom.sk] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:29:14 -!- Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:30:09 -!- kanru [~kanru@209.226.201.250] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 05:30:26 Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 05:31:58 -!- Guest14094 [~ivan@187.106.36.28] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:32:55 miql [~miql@ip72-201-117-127.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 05:35:33 how do i destroy a running anonymous thread with bt? 05:36:04 if you forgot to keep a reference to it you can probably find it in all-threads 05:39:40 -!- pavelpenev [~quassel@95.87.196.114] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:39:41 yes, that's how i know it's there. but to kill it... 05:40:14 axion: don't do it unless you're just debugging 05:40:32 axion: the only safe way to stop a thread is to ask it nicely to stop itself and hope it does. 05:40:59 axion: that said, istr M-x slime-list-threads or something similar existing. You can use that to kill the threads. 05:41:05 i am. i created a (lambda () (loop (print "test"))) thread...and it is running. id prefer not to restart my image 05:41:05 there's bt:destroy-thread, which is uppose would be unsafe 05:41:07 or you can use bt:destroy-thread 05:41:31 I think there's a bt:all-threads or similar 05:42:25 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@92.46.8.77] has joined #lisp 05:42:25 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@92.46.8.77] has quit [Changing host] 05:42:25 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 05:43:44 destroy-thread needs a reference to destroy, no? 05:44:03 yes, which you're getting from bt:all-threads 05:44:35 jack_rabbit [~kyle@c-98-253-60-75.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:44:57 stassats - if you are still online - I found the problem with FORMAT. My FUNCALL function was slicing multiple-values down to the first value - that was a nasty bug. 05:45:51 not sure how to use that 05:46:28 (format t "~{ ~A~}" '(this is a test of list printing)) --> THIS IS A TEST OF LIST PRINTING 05:47:08 axion: call (bt:all-threads), find your thread, kill it 05:47:13 -!- miql [~miql@ip72-201-117-127.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 05:47:41 the item is # 05:47:59 so what to pass to destroy-thread? 05:48:42 that. 05:49:07 illegal sharp macro character: #\< 05:49:15 no, i mean the object 05:49:27 (bt:destroy-thread (nth whichever (bt:all-threads))) 05:50:21 xcombelle [~xcombelle@AToulouse-551-1-47-196.w90-11.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 05:51:13 thank you 05:53:01 mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has joined #lisp 05:53:04 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has quit [Changing host] 05:53:04 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 05:56:46 pnpuff [~C6248@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 05:59:22 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-167.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 06:00:08 -!- pnpuff [~C6248@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has left #lisp 06:13:45 -!- rszeno [~rszeno@79.114.105.35] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:17:41 -!- nug700 [~nug700@184-98-119-26.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: bye] 06:19:42 Myk267 [~myk@unaffiliated/myk267] has joined #lisp 06:19:52 -!- MrWoohoo [~MrWoohoo@pool-108-38-175-139.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]] 06:21:45 pnpuff [~C6248@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 06:22:33 -!- baibu [~jgrklhjfd@201-78-91-39.user.veloxzone.com.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:22:46 -!- youlysses [~user@75-132-28-10.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Quit: Peace people. o/] 06:26:54 lukas_ [~lukas@194.228.13.217] has joined #lisp 06:27:18 -!- lukas_ is now known as Guest51977 06:27:22 hello. I've installed SBCL under a not standard path. Now, to test clfswm I want launch a new xterm by means of xinit /my-path-to/xterm -- :1 . So I can (load "lisp.load") (require :clx) ... and after few other steps ... (clfswm:main). I wand do xinit /my-path-to/xterm -e "/my-not-standard-path/bin/sbcl --core /my-not-standard-path/lib/sbcl/sbcl.core" -- :1 , but fails. (after that I would lauch BCL with a script to automate clfswm setup). So what I could 06:27:57 s/wand/want 06:29:00 Eldariof-ru [~CLD@188.168.242.178] has joined #lisp 06:29:06 Hans_ [~weechat@115.132.170.124] has joined #lisp 06:29:54 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Disconnected by services] 06:30:10 hi 06:30:19 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 06:30:24 -!- Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:31:09 bolcselo [~x@pool-108-45-77-30.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 06:31:18 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-167.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:32:16 sdemarre [~serge@109.134.143.224] has joined #lisp 06:33:08 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-167.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 06:33:37 -!- Guest51977 [~lukas@194.228.13.217] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 06:34:54 -!- Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 06:35:17 to be a little more precise I get an error like: Can't execvp /opt/sbcl-1.1.7/bin/sbcl --core /opt/sbcl-1.1.7/lib/sbcl/sbcl.core: No such file or directory 06:35:39 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:35:57 bitonic [~user@151.225.21.97] has joined #lisp 06:36:26 Does anyone here got a rewrite of pcap lib, in clisp ? 06:36:49 Hans_: why not use libpcap using ffi? 06:38:22 H4ns: just want to see how they implement it 06:38:30 -!- Tanami [~carnage@9ch.in] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:38:47 Hans_: "they" implement "it" using ffi and libpcap if "they" are sane 06:38:53 k0001 [~k0001@host106.190-137-202.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 06:39:17 Hans_: afair there is some lisp library making libpcap easier to use 06:39:38 pnpuff: well your paths are wrong then 06:39:43 Hans_: http://atomontage.github.io/plokami/ 06:39:43 maybe I have to include SBCL executable in $PATH :) 06:39:53 H4ns: okay.... thanks you 06:40:16 but why I have to modify my $PATH? theere is any other alternative? 06:41:10 pnpuff: i think the INSTALL or README files describe what to do 06:41:55 H4ns: I run sbcl now by means of a stupid alias 06:45:11 and if is possible I don't want modify my $PATH to include SBCL executable (only because I need to start it in a new tty), so is there any other alternative? 06:45:11 pnpuff: reading documentation often is a good way to overcome stupidity 06:45:53 pnpuff: you might end up finding out that your approach is not stupid, though :) 06:46:13 H4ns: I do not understand you 06:48:43 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-167-82.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 06:48:57 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-167.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:49:56 angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has joined #lisp 06:49:59 -!- Hans_ [~weechat@115.132.170.124] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.0] 06:50:28 Hans_ [~weechat@115.132.170.124] has joined #lisp 06:50:34 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-167.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 06:51:58 -!- nilsi_ [~nilsi@host-95-199-198-225.mobileonline.telia.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:52:17 nilsi [~nilsi@host-95-199-198-225.mobileonline.telia.com] has joined #lisp 06:56:10 stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-017-178.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 06:56:11 -!- nilsi [~nilsi@host-95-199-198-225.mobileonline.telia.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:01:58 -!- zRecursive [~czsq888@171.216.155.177] has left #lisp 07:02:38 nilsi [~nilsi@host-95-199-198-225.mobileonline.telia.com] has joined #lisp 07:02:40 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:03:33 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 07:03:56 DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@CPE-121-218-78-1.lnse4.ken.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 07:06:26 fsvehla [~fsvehla@h081217181184.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 07:07:10 -!- tessier [~treed@kernel-panic/copilotco] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:08:09 -!- nilsi [~nilsi@host-95-199-198-225.mobileonline.telia.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:10:08 tessier [~treed@kernel-panic/copilotco] has joined #lisp 07:11:24 and I've a right xinit /usr/bin/xterm -hold -e "cat ~/.bashrc" -- :1 , so I do not know what is wrong. 07:12:05 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@70.114.215.220] has quit [Quit: normanrichards] 07:12:06 And there is not an explanation in the README or INSTALL files... 07:12:09 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-167.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:14:06 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-167.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 07:17:40 morphling [~stefan@gssn-4d003b1c.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 07:18:57 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 07:20:24 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 07:22:23 Thra11 [~Thra11@87.113.172.193] has joined #lisp 07:24:24 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Disconnected by services] 07:24:51 -!- sdemarre [~serge@109.134.143.224] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:24:51 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 07:27:42 -!- axion [~axion@lngdnd-ai02-74-214-211-129.utma.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:29:40 Shinmera [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 07:33:53 -!- kliph` [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 07:40:45 ehu [~ehu@static-42-194-112-80.thenetworkfactory.nl] has joined #lisp 07:41:45 is the common-lisp.net migration supposed to be done? 07:42:16 -!- Eldariof-ru [~CLD@188.168.242.178] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:43:41 ehu` [~ehu@109.38.123.200] has joined #lisp 07:44:14 nilsi [~nilsi@host-95-199-198-225.mobileonline.telia.com] has joined #lisp 07:47:39 this gives a 404: http://common-lisp.net/pipermail/cl-ppcre-devel/2004-June/000041.html 07:47:49 thank goodness for the wayback machine 07:47:55 -!- ehu [~ehu@static-42-194-112-80.thenetworkfactory.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 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ZZZzzz] 09:39:55 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-66-175.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:40:45 -!- sellout- [~Adium@pat-ip-195-91-109-133.flarion.as5628.telecom.sk] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:41:32 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-66-175.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 10:00:06 -!- ehu` [~ehu@109.38.123.200] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:02:39 mulk [~benkard@mnch-4d04dd00.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 10:08:34 eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 10:10:07 -!- mulk [~benkard@mnch-4d04dd00.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:11:41 benkard [~benkard@mnch-4d04dd00.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 10:13:21 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-66-175.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 10:13:43 -!- aeth [~Michael@wesnoth/umc-dev/developer/aethaeryn] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:14:25 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:14:31 -!- Nosceteipsum [~Nosceteip@c192050.adsl.hansenet.de] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 10:15:04 aeth [~Michael@wesnoth/umc-dev/developer/aethaeryn] has joined #lisp 10:15:42 josemanuel [~josemanue@48.226.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 10:22:48 pierpa [~user@95.236.59.155] has joined #lisp 10:22:57 It's dangerous to do (bt:all-threads) (bt:destroy-thread (nth #.(read) (bt:all-threads))) because new threads could appear, or be destroyed between the two calls to all-threads. 10:23:03 Rather, use kill-thread: http://paste.lisp.org/display/137191 10:24:48 -!- McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:25:09 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.226] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:25:24 McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has joined #lisp 10:26:41 jerryzhou [~slackerui@58.245.253.218] has joined #lisp 10:28:26 -!- surrounder [~surrounde@095-096-032-026.static.chello.nl] has quit [Quit: "latuh"] 10:28:40 surrounder [~surrounde@095-096-032-026.static.chello.nl] has joined #lisp 10:33:41 -!- jewel [~jewel@105-237-24-43.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 10:37:41 miql [~miql@ip72-201-117-127.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 10:40:06 -!- jerryzhou [~slackerui@58.245.253.218] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:40:32 -!- ASau` is now known as ASau 10:42:20 munge [~user@ip72-209-237-151.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 10:44:14 -!- teggi [~teggi@123.20.50.245] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:44:19 -!- Thra11 [~Thra11@87.113.172.193] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:44:46 jewel [~jewel@105-237-24-43.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 10:47:25 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@CPE-121-218-78-1.lnse4.ken.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 10:49:02 -!- benkard [~benkard@mnch-4d04dd00.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz] 10:58:12 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.226] has joined #lisp 11:01:10 -!- miql [~miql@ip72-201-117-127.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:01:10 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu2.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:05:34 Munksgaard [~philip@80-71-135-72.u.parknet.dk] has joined #lisp 11:05:51 przl [~przlrkt@p5B2987C8.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 11:06:03 agumonkey [~agu@45.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 11:07:33 -!- Munksgaard [~philip@80-71-135-72.u.parknet.dk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:10:34 Munksgaard [~philip@80-71-135-72.u.parknet.dk] has joined #lisp 11:11:21 talas [~talas@136.144.16.62.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 11:11:27 -!- prip [~foo@95.233.223.236] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 11:13:35 -!- Munksgaard [~philip@80-71-135-72.u.parknet.dk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:13:36 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:14:55 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@92.46.8.77] has joined #lisp 11:14:55 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@92.46.8.77] has quit [Changing host] 11:14:55 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 11:15:01 prip [~foo@host123-129-dynamic.19-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 11:15:33 Munksgaard [~philip@80-71-135-72.u.parknet.dk] has joined #lisp 11:15:43 -!- Munksgaard [~philip@80-71-135-72.u.parknet.dk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:16:29 Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 11:17:17 -!- davorb [~davor@194.47.245.35] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 11:18:14 -!- DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:18:59 DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has joined #lisp 11:19:23 davorb [~davor@hallonpaj.df.lth.se] has joined #lisp 11:21:44 Munksgaard [~philip@80-71-135-72.u.parknet.dk] has joined #lisp 11:21:47 jute [~Thunderbi@31.212.107.98] has joined #lisp 11:25:25 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p5B2987C8.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 11:26:25 breakds [~breakds@adsl-71-150-253-174.dsl.mdsnwi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 11:27:17 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-45-236.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 11:29:30 -!- Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:29:43 Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 11:32:11 -!- Hans_ [~weechat@115.132.170.124] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.0] 11:34:51 przl [~przlrkt@p5B2987C8.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 11:34:57 Nosceteipsum [~Nosceteip@c192050.adsl.hansenet.de] has joined #lisp 11:36:12 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Disconnected by services] 11:36:36 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 11:45:12 I'm looking at the caveman framework and trying to figure out why "@url GET "/hi" (defun say-hi (params) )" would be better than "(defurl say-hi :get "/hi" (params) )" or something like that 11:45:22 teggi [~teggi@123.20.50.245] has joined #lisp 11:46:07 -!- Munksgaard [~philip@80-71-135-72.u.parknet.dk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:46:26 Munksgaard [~philip@80-71-135-72.u.parknet.dk] has joined #lisp 11:46:32 -!- Munksgaard [~philip@80-71-135-72.u.parknet.dk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:47:35 Guthur [~user@eth2845.sa.adsl.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 11:48:16 Does puri allow me to get query parameters in a more structured form than a string? 11:49:53 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-45-236.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 11:51:55 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-45-236.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 11:54:05 Guthur: no 11:55:10 luis, so are you asking a style question? 11:55:13 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 11:55:21 Guthur: maybe https://github.com/edicl/hunchentoot/blob/master/util.lisp#L232 helps 11:55:23 luis, why does the author do the @url stuff? 11:55:29 luis, is that what you're asking 11:55:33 Quadrescence: sort of. Mostly ranting, really. 11:56:02 -!- jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@bl18-102-243.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:56:07 luis, the author just really likes that annotation-style, you'll see it in his sources for everything, including exporting CL functions from the package, etc 11:56:18 luis: the reason for the existence of most reader macros is "look how cool common lisp is" 11:56:25 and his preference bled into his APIs 11:57:15 I see. Well, you know, it might be useful for exporting symbols, actually. 11:57:15 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 11:57:35 *maxm* likes exporting symbols at definition site 11:57:36 Maintaining decoupled export lists for big packages is a PITA. 11:58:03 *H4ns* uses emacs to help with that. 11:58:05 ie I just use (def ..) definer thing, which has flags to export accessors and slot names etc 11:58:31 H4ns: still manual, even with tools 11:58:37 H4ns: yeah actually I should have just read the hunchentoot documentation and I would have seent that I could get an alist; i'm using hunchentoot anyway 11:58:40 maxm: *shrug* 11:58:46 I personally haven't had trouble managing decoupled export lists. It's not like every time I make a commit, I'm wildly changing what I'm exporting. That's usually static. 11:59:10 well I'm probably just too lazy 12:00:43 Also, in my opinion, using EXPORT is more of a side-effectful computation, and isn't really a static declaration. 12:01:28 btw luis you were asking about log4cl before, I pushed the version with slime integration stuff to github 12:01:29 so everything in a lisp file is internal by default? 12:01:30 well, that's not my opinion, but the implicit style argument is 12:01:45 *maxm* is so glad thats out of the way, took much longer then expected to polish it up 12:01:49 j`ey, something is exported only when you say so 12:02:33 Quadrescence: it seems easy enough to get stale exports when you have big packages and lots of people touching the code. (Maybe the problem there is having big packages, for sure.) Even if it doesn't happen too often (and it probably isn't very harmful either), it makes me uneasy. :) 12:02:37 Quadrescence: so internal sysmbols are gensymmed I guess? 12:02:52 Quadrescence: I dont really understand LISP compilation tbh 12:03:00 -!- jute [~Thunderbi@31.212.107.98] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:03:00 Quadrescence: C/C++ is way easier to understand 12:03:07 tru 12:03:22 yea the prob is not with "normal" functional lisp code, but with packages that provide API via CLOS, and have objects with tons of accessors 12:04:10 as you develop it, and reorganize objects and slots, especially accessors have class-name prefix in them, its a pain to manage export list manually, or remembering to use emacs tool, every time you change a class, or move stuff around 12:04:19 Quadrescence: if your program never contained "eval" I guess you could do LTO kinda 12:04:35 j`ey, lto? 12:05:11 link time optimisation, full program optimisation 12:05:19 j`ey, lto barely works due to GNU incompetence, on the platforms where GNU is dominant toolchain 12:05:25 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 12:05:47 weirdo: I dont see what GNU has to do here? 12:05:59 j`ey, there are other troubles to be had too aside from EVAL 12:06:03 when I said LTO, I really meant Whole program optimisation 12:06:10 j`ey, if we're speaking about LTO for the C language, binutils and gcc are notorious for lto bugs 12:06:11 Quadrescence: oh? 12:06:16 and moreover packages are not modules, as much as everyone would like them to be 12:07:01 -!- Tarential [~Tarential@li472-156.members.linode.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 12:07:04 j`ey, ancient binutils version does C LTO to a degree, but C++ ICE's 12:07:21 right.. but.. we're talking LISP not C :) 12:07:22 Tarential [~Tarential@li472-156.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 12:07:27 -!- pnpuff [~C6248@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has left #lisp 12:08:36 j`ey, i don't think many people here talk about LISP, except in the historical context 12:09:04 prxq [~mommer@mnhm-4d0110df.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 12:09:06 lukas_ [~lukas@194.228.13.188] has joined #lisp 12:09:13 inb4 bickering about capitalization 12:09:30 -!- lukas_ is now known as Guest41938 12:09:31 prxq_ [~mommer@mnhm-4d0110df.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 12:10:36 weirdo: that's a surprise 12:10:52 Quadrescence: CaPiTaLs ArE ImPoRtAnT 12:11:18 *maxm* actually uses inverted readtables with CommonQt 12:11:20 and it works great 12:11:46 -!- prxq_ [~mommer@mnhm-4d0110df.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Client Quit] 12:12:02 pretty amazing actually that almost nothing broke, except stuff that refers to packages as "PACKAGE" (we won't name any names :-) 12:12:20 :) 12:15:05 pnpuff [~C6248@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 12:17:24 xinit /usr/bin/xterm -hold -e "/opt/sbcl-1.1.7/bin/sbcl --script hello.lisp" -- :1 ... ok with the hello.lisp script (3.1.3 shebang scripts in sbcl manual). No need to modify $PATH. wow. 12:18:08 cdidd [~cdidd@95-27-37-66.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 12:18:42 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-45-236.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:20:33 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-45-236.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 12:23:42 -!- nan- [~user@46.197.112.126] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:24:34 hmm, finally checking out zmq libs on cl 12:26:13 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-10-222.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:27:28 galdor_ [~galdor@78.193.58.122] has joined #lisp 12:27:41 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-190-8.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 12:28:27 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-4d003b1c.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 12:28:59 from quicklisp, :zmq won't load, cl-zeromq and pzmq both load, pzmq seems to have more documentation, both are active.. 12:29:34 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p5B2987C8.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:30:37 -!- galdor_ [~galdor@78.193.58.122] has quit [Client Quit] 12:32:19 ok cl-zeromq seems to be more mature actually 12:32:21 bhyde [~bhyde@c-24-61-81-138.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:33:35 have to use non-ql version for zmq 3 api tho 12:34:07 -!- jewel [~jewel@105-237-24-43.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:38:40 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-45-236.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:42:57 Odyessus [~odyessus@chello080109062130.15.14.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 12:45:59 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-45-236.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 12:46:52 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-70.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:47:19 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-70.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 12:47:45 davazp [~user@31.200.158.6] has joined #lisp 12:49:08 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 12:49:38 LiamH [~none@pool-173-73-133-61.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 12:50:29 -!- Kabaka [kabaka@botters/kabaka] has quit [Excess Flood] 12:50:44 -!- cdidd [~cdidd@95-27-37-66.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:51:01 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:51:30 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@92.46.8.77] has joined #lisp 12:51:30 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@92.46.8.77] has quit [Changing host] 12:51:30 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 12:53:43 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Client Quit] 12:57:08 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-45-236.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:57:10 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-70.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:58:53 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-70.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 12:59:20 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-45-236.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 12:59:38 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has quit [Quit: Close the world, Open the nExt] 13:01:33 [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has joined #lisp 13:01:46 Vivitron [~Vivitron@pool-98-110-213-33.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:02:09 Kabaka [kabaka@botters/kabaka] has joined #lisp 13:02:09 -!- Kabaka [kabaka@botters/kabaka] has quit [Excess Flood] 13:02:57 Munksgaard [~philip@188.120.74.119] has joined #lisp 13:03:07 the new log4cl emac support is delightful! 13:03:15 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 13:03:49 so is the improved ccl support 13:03:55 galdor_ [~galdor@78.193.58.122] has joined #lisp 13:04:15 Adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 13:04:28 -!- galdor_ [~galdor@78.193.58.122] has quit [Client Quit] 13:06:14 Kabaka [kabaka@botters/kabaka] has joined #lisp 13:07:15 gko [gko@2400:8900::f03c:91ff:fe70:e605] has joined #lisp 13:08:01 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-190-8.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: none] 13:09:23 bhyde: ah, well the issue you opened is one of the limitations of regexp based highlighting 13:09:25 -!- Kabaka [kabaka@botters/kabaka] has quit [Excess Flood] 13:10:11 ah, blame the tools  i prefer to blame the users :) 13:10:14 while the Lisp side actually knows that (x y z) has no package info, the fortification is based on convention and regexp 13:10:56 its technically possible to write an appender, that would pass info structurally, ie send each message to Slime as XML, or sexp, and then above would work 13:11:01 xificurC [~xificurC@adsl-dyn183.78-99-137.t-com.sk] has joined #lisp 13:11:37 but it seemed like so much bother for a few corner cases, and convention based fontification works fine in most cases 13:12:23 presumably if you vary the formatting then other conventions are broken (and other tools) ? 13:12:24 I noticed another case, when you don't import the package but override the method, ie (in-package :blah) (defmethod asdf:perform ...() (log:info args)) 13:12:26 Kabaka [kabaka@botters/kabaka] has joined #lisp 13:13:12 bhyde: yes, but default highlighter tries to be very flexible, check alternate format with (log:config :file2) and (log:config :thread) 13:13:17 do you have advise on how to deal with the logging that ends up in *inferior-lisp*  i.e. that from my threads? 13:13:27 foreignFunction [~niksaak@ip-4761.sunline.net.ua] has joined #lisp 13:13:41 bhyde: (defparameter *globally-redirect-io* t) in ~/.swank.lisp 13:13:53 (with (in-package #:swank) first, naturally) 13:13:57 bhyde: there are 3 console appenders. regular one goes to *TERMINAL-IO* (whatever its bound to in thread) 13:14:23 bhyde: the this-console-appender will always go to whataver place you installed it from (ie it remember the stream) 13:14:41 bhyde: try (log:config :sane) vs (log:config :sane2) vs (log:config :sane :this-console) 13:15:34 1st will go to runtime value of *terminal-io*, 2nd both to REPL and inferior lisp, _exept_ for repl thread, and 3rd one everything will go to repl 13:15:51 must be fun keeping emacs in synch with changes made by log:config 13:16:10 there is no keeping, emacs side just uses regexp :-) 13:16:18 for log levels it queries dynamically 13:16:24 :sane2 is new? 13:17:21 yes, :sane2 is new, it uses tricky-console-appender, which logs to captured stream, _expect_ if *terminal-io* is the same 13:17:31 its all documented quite well in a docstring here https://github.com/7max/log4cl/blob/master/src/configurator.lisp 13:17:37 just had no time to format it for readme 13:18:07 bhyde: and answer to your thread question was in the FAQ in the end :-) proves ppl don't read until the end, heh I'm the same 13:18:20 *bhyde* is happy to have :sane2, looking forward to increasing sanity in the days and weeks to come 13:18:38 bhyde: if you use threads a lot try (log:config :sane2 :thread :pretty) 13:18:43 edgar-rft [~GOD@HSI-KBW-149-172-63-75.hsi13.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 13:19:52 _tca [~user@h151.25.91.207.static.ip.windstream.net] has joined #lisp 13:20:56 *maxm* got to adopt cl-doc or other source markup util, coz I end up rewriting docs twice, once in docstrings and once in .md or .org 13:22:15 http://bit.ly/14B0mOB 13:22:28 ah 13:22:48 :) 13:22:52 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-45-236.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:22:52 interesting, have to adjust a regexp, let me see which one it is 13:23:00 -!- bel3atar [~bel3atar_@5070823C.static.ziggozakelijk.nl] has left #lisp 13:23:56 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-45-236.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 13:24:47 bhyde: can you hack emacs? do M-x find-function log4slime-highlight-log-message, there will be 4 regexp set around 10 lines above 13:24:57 I think its timestamp-regexp.. 13:25:39 it basically goes [ stuff after log level is either date/time or threa ] 13:26:32 looking 13:26:41 -!- Odyessus [~odyessus@chello080109062130.15.14.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi] 13:26:59 think you'll have to adjust it to just [[^]+] 13:27:15 coz it seems to use spaces and slashes and pretty much everything in thread names 13:27:32 as a temp solution you get rid of :thread 13:29:02 bhyde: ah (unrelated) if your pw package has longer dotted name, you can use (log:package-options :use-shortest-nickname nil), an it will use full name instead of "pw" 13:31:49 bhyde: ok, do M-x eval-experssion (setq log4slime-timestamp-regexp "\\[[^]]+\\]") and it probably will fix it 13:32:40 -!- DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:32:58 karswell` [~user@87.112.161.139] has joined #lisp 13:33:12 yes, that and other variations works 13:33:55 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 13:34:13 DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has joined #lisp 13:34:15 it would be fun to hide/show the transcript on various criteria 13:34:59 well, it would be re-implementing stuff on emacs.. You can log to both console and add a file 13:35:04 and then grep the file 13:35:08 -!- karswell [~user@46.208.83.73] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:35:18 or I think there is something like M-x hide-matching-lines 13:36:47 on the 2nd thought, I can probably hide/unhide.. It already stores all the parsed package/file/function when applying fonts 13:37:11 :) 13:37:33 so adding additional "Off and hide prev" menu item can be implemented.. 13:37:42 hoyang [~hoyang@218.11.176.27] has joined #lisp 13:38:10 but you got to think if it will be useful. I have many ideas where its like "would be awesome to do X", work for a week, then never use it 13:38:11 years ago i had a variation on trace that would accumulate huge traces (including a bit of the stack) and then when things didn't work out you could browse that in a sort of glorified outline mode 13:38:38 bhyde: you can do (log:with-indent) btw 13:38:41 glad to hear other people suffer that affliction :) 13:39:00 Bacteria [~Bacteria@115-64-180-132.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 13:39:45 http://i.imgur.com/nZ8lDpJ.png 13:40:15 without arg it increments existing indent by 2 13:41:11 generally my mode of operation with logging is.. Log quite a lot to a file, coz its fast 13:41:39 then do procedure described in https://github.com/7max/log4cl#needle 13:41:54 -!- m6502 [~user@lisp.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:42:28 ie enable tons of logging, then quickly narrow it down to current focus area, and save it.. Only have to do the narrow part once 13:44:55 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-45-236.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:45:04 i do too much opening logs and then stripping away lines using m-x delete-matching-lines, and i have assorted tools that parse log files looking for unexpected patterns 13:45:27 which is all well and good until reproducing the issue involves a lot of coordination costs and hand work 13:45:54 bhyde: ah, what I do is I use (log:config :notime) 13:46:09 then run 2 or 3 cases of whatever I'm debugging 13:46:13 and then I can diff the logs 13:46:17 coz without time, they are diffable 13:46:27 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-45-236.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 13:46:44 i also do a certain amount of writing little grammars that a subset of the logs msgs are expected to match, to assure that the process requirements are being conformed to 13:46:59 works if your print-objects have :identity nil in print-object method 13:47:41 :) yeah, i do that too  usually with sed like scripts to strip the variable bits off 13:48:33 -!- bitonic [~user@151.225.21.97] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:50:10 -!- eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:51:41 bananagram [~bot@c-76-30-158-226.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:52:50 well if you have any patches later to it or find other screwups, let me know.. I would love to continue plowing more new features into it, but got to keep eyes on the prize, rather then eyes on the my tools :-) obviously I'll fix any showstoppers or crashes or such, but prob no new features for a while 13:52:51 this is the paper were I pick up the debugging trick of writing down the patterns and checking for them http://scholar.google.com/citations?view_op=view_citation&hl=en&user=WZDFq3MAAAAJ&citation_for_view=WZDFq3MAAAAJ:d1gkVwhDpl0C but apparently it's behind paywalls 13:53:44 thanks for the gift, it's made my life better :) 13:54:23 yea I understand the idea.. Was debugging 500-1000 concurrent users pounding 32 core aix box, thats where I learned to appreciate logging :-) 13:54:39 Kobain [~kobian@unaffiliated/kobain] has joined #lisp 13:57:29 well there's your problem! users! 13:58:08 worse, these were flight attendants 13:59:51 imagine situation.. Bidding opens at 15:00:00. things being bid on are first/come-first/serve, and we are not allowed to use any queuing or delaying, or throttling. 500 flight attendants compete for 10 overtime trips, if she lands one, she makes extra 3-4k of real money 14:00:24 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@50-196-148-102-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 14:00:53 kpreid [~kpreid@50-196-148-102-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 14:01:18 now those of them who are smart were opening 10 browser windows, and spamming Submit button as fast as their finger would go.. Each submit had to go through database, backend, full check of FAR, contract and salary rules, and such.. It was insanity, and still is to this day :-) 14:01:28 guiambros [~guiambros@z65-50-88-217.ips.direcpath.com] has joined #lisp 14:01:34 at least we convinced client to disallow concurrent login 14:01:37 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.226] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 14:02:19 chameco [~samuel@cpe-67-241-240-138.stny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:02:45 some flight attendants will eventually write bots ;-) 14:03:02 ... learn too much programming and retire 14:04:43 -!- elkng [~elkng@unaffiliated/elkng] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:05:00 -!- rszeno [~rszeno@79.114.104.188] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:06:32 elkng [~elkng@unaffiliated/elkng] has joined #lisp 14:07:08 auction sites have a kind of advantage, they don't ignore the power-law curve nature of load; but have to face unto it immediately 14:08:48 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-190-8.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:17:10 pavelpenev [~quassel@130-204-68-81.2074856244.ddns.cablebg.net] has joined #lisp 14:19:15 bhyde: actually looking at your screenshot, I have todo item, and you are use case for it 14:20:17 -!- davazp [~user@31.200.158.6] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 14:20:39 - 14:20:40 bhyde: its already possible to add new patterns to pattern layout, but I thought adding something like (register-pattern-special "blah" '*blah*) -> then %{blah} in pattern layout will expand to symbol value. 14:20:44 zhtx [~user@124.89.80.29] has joined #lisp 14:21:11 hi everybody. who knows the default search paths of ASDF3? 14:21:48 so ppl can register stuff like {host} {client} {session} {transaction} and have them added to some logs automatically.. (There is already generic log4cl:*ndc-context* and (log:with-ndc (whatever)) 14:21:58 rszeno [~rszeno@79.114.98.5] has joined #lisp 14:22:21 the target use case is actually standard format log files like apache access log, so you don't have to format stuff yourself 14:23:31 przl [~przlrkt@p4FE64367.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 14:24:12 bitonic [~user@dyn1220-150.wlan.ic.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 14:26:00 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu2.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 14:26:06 drichards [~user@c-98-232-26-203.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:26:07 swks [~user@195.189.51.112] has joined #lisp 14:29:33 -!- bhyde [~bhyde@c-24-61-81-138.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: bhyde] 14:31:23 k0001 [~k0001@host106.190-137-202.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 14:31:46 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 14:33:18 - 14:34:16 -!- zhtx [~user@124.89.80.29] has left #lisp 14:36:11 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-45-236.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:38:28 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-45-236.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 14:39:57 -!- swks [~user@195.189.51.112] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:41:58 pranavrc [~pranavrc@122.164.11.42] has joined #lisp 14:41:58 -!- pranavrc [~pranavrc@122.164.11.42] has quit [Changing host] 14:41:58 pranavrc [~pranavrc@unaffiliated/pranavrc] has joined #lisp 14:44:40 kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 14:46:04 -!- drichards [~user@c-98-232-26-203.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:53:34 -!- Strigoides [~owen@114-134-0-103.lightwire.co.nz] has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:55:39 lymdog [2ec24715@gateway/web/freenode/ip.46.194.71.21] has joined #lisp 14:56:00 Hi! Does anyone have an implementation of RFC 868 in lisp? 14:57:59 Nowadays, we tend to use ntp instead. 14:59:18 Also, those old "standard" services are often inhibited in modern systems, because of security considerations. 14:59:19 lymdog: otherwise, it doesn't seem hard to implement this datetime protocol. 14:59:35 i was mostly looking for a simple networking daemon in cl... 14:59:54 Check usocket, there may be some examples in there. 15:00:07 merci! 15:02:50 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-70.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:03:53 -!- pnpuff [~C6248@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:04:01 eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 15:06:13 weie_ [~eie@softbank221078042071.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 15:06:32 Lis [~Lis@p3E9E9598.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 15:07:34 -!- weie [~eie@softbank221078042071.bbtec.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:09:47 zajn [~zajn@c-67-182-61-90.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:10:01 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-190-8.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:10:07 -!- victor_lowther [~victor.lo@2602:306:3686:aac0:f0b4:ed5f:e432:876d] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:12:25 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-190-8.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 15:15:13 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-45-236.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:15:29 -!- k0001 [~k0001@host106.190-137-202.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:17:14 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-45-236.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:17:53 -!- joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@c-98-208-36-36.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:23:03 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-70.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:23:48 bhyde [~bhyde@c-24-61-81-138.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:25:04 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu2.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:26:23 sdemarre [~serge@109.134.143.224] has joined #lisp 15:27:19 -!- hoyang [~hoyang@218.11.176.27] has quit [Quit: ] 15:30:49 -!- paddymahoney [~patrick@198-84-186-52.cpe.teksavvy.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 15:37:07 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-45-236.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:41:27 ha  i've never seen `(let ((*x* nil)) (makunbound '*x*) ,@body)  before, that's cute. 15:42:49 -!- xificurC [~xificurC@adsl-dyn183.78-99-137.t-com.sk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:46:00 maxm - i use the phrase "raising the semantic level" for the heuristics that try to take event streams and convert them into something more suitable for analysis. it get's pretty hairy pretty quickly, usually I start adding a plist to the events and a set of category tags and hill climb from there. then there are the tools that are baked into the code; like your with-ndc, v.s. the tools that work on existing event logs (and which can live 15:46:01 the emacs or tools side)  of course if your baking it in you can write much richer object oriented log streams  and you can do differential encodings and such.  did somebody say something about "eye on the prize" and "building but not using risk" :) 15:47:20 bhyde: it may be cute, but it may also not do what you're thinking it would 15:48:25 on some implementations, it unbinds the global value, and i don't see any indication in clhs that that's wrong 15:48:42 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p4FE64367.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:51:57 stassats: interesting  i believe (progv '(*x*) () ) might does that that is trying to do  though again clhs doesn't really get into the threads 15:53:24 might does -> might do 15:53:34 (progv '(*x*) () ) does do 15:54:32 jute [~Thunderbi@31.212.107.98] has joined #lisp 15:54:35 maxm - looks like with-ndc should use progv rather than that cute thing (see above) 15:55:10 why do you even need to do that? 15:56:09 interestingly, while (let ((*x* nil)) (makunbound '*x*)) doesn't work in ECL by unbinding the global value, (progv '(*x*) () ) doesn't unbind anything 15:56:31 i'll file a bug 15:56:32 it's in log4cl, a special binds something to print as context in logging messages, when it's unbound (the usual case) no context is given 15:56:44 how about NIL? 15:57:46 no doubt other choices could have been made, not my code though 16:01:05 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-190-8.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:01:09 morphling [~stefan@gssn-4d003b1c.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 16:02:34 -!- chameco [~samuel@cpe-67-241-240-138.stny.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:04:04 that said, i often leave specials unbound globally  so I get errors if I try to use them outside a well established dynamic extent  and that does lead to code in tracing and debugging that has to gracefully handling them being unbound  the "real code" doesn't have any such guards (beyond those provided by the compiler).  so this kind of thing in a logging library seems quite natural to me 16:06:27 -!- ahoops [~ahoops__@121.96.14.223] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 16:08:18 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-180-172.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:09:53 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-180-172.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:10:15 -!- kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 16:11:55 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-180-172.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:12:28 Eldariof-ru [~CLD@188.168.242.178] has joined #lisp 16:13:30 -!- MoALTz [~no@host86-137-69-242.range86-137.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:15:00 przl [~przlrkt@p4FE64367.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 16:16:36 davazp [~user@178.167.191.56.threembb.ie] has joined #lisp 16:17:10 stassats: I have with-ndc (nested diagnostic context, basically something to grep for if you looking for a thread of computation among multi-thread worker pool, all doing tiny pieces of work) 16:17:23 on web things, its usually session number or id or such 16:18:27 but I did not like the fact that I could not distinguish between NIL ndc, and none at all, so I changed "no value" to be unbound, which is fine. But then when you are inside of some outer (with-ndc ("blah")) and have to temporary do some work where there is no NDC 16:18:34 oh man 16:18:45 -!- Fare [~fare@173-9-65-97-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:19:10 just increasing the input line text-size in beirc was so hard...... 16:19:27 so I added (without-ndc), which is where the above thing comes from.. 16:19:58 i had to put a (with-drawing-options (stream :text-size 14).....around the body of read-frame-command in application.lisp 16:20:19 is there in lisp something similar to "n"x200 in perl to get string of 200 characters ? 16:20:45 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-45-236.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:21:13 -!- Bacteria [~Bacteria@115-64-180-132.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Quit: Bacteria] 16:21:24 (make-string 20 :initial-element #\x) 16:21:29 Urfin [~user@5.29.23.234] has joined #lisp 16:22:20 or more generically (make-array 20 :element-type 'character :initial-element #\x) 16:25:45 look how short it is: "n"x200 16:26:38 shorter not always better, or we'd be programming in APL 16:27:10 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-45-236.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:27:13 but if you create 20 of these per day, you can write a utility or reader macro 16:29:04 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-45-236.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:31:33 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:31:53 nilsi [~nilsi@host-95-199-198-225.mobileonline.telia.com] has joined #lisp 16:32:12 satshabad [~satshabad@pool-173-58-100-240.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:33:24 -!- otwieracz is now known as nie_pisze 16:34:11 -!- nie_pisze is now known as otwieracz 16:36:57 -!- lymdog [2ec24715@gateway/web/freenode/ip.46.194.71.21] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 16:38:44 normanrichards [~normanric@rrcs-108-178-120-144.sw.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:42:05 (defun x (times string) (with-output-to-string (*standard-output*) (loop repeat times do (princ string)))) 16:42:39 (x 10 "Hello") --> "HelloHelloHelloHelloHelloHelloHelloHelloHelloHello" 16:43:03 ha I can't even test on clisp now that I upgraded quicklisp-client, it won't load on clisp 16:43:16 debug it. 16:44:37 thats what I'm doing.. heh startup problems is one area where log4cl won't help, if you debugging why asdf or ql not loading.. Like going from air conditioned office building into slums of calcutta 16:45:51 Guest14094 [~ivan@187.106.36.28] has joined #lisp 16:46:28 -!- nilsi [~nilsi@host-95-199-198-225.mobileonline.telia.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:48:19 hmm nuking FASL's worked 16:48:19 16:48:49 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p4FE64367.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:49:27 -!- eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:49:35 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-45-236.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:50:04 ckoch786 [~quassel@108-70-143-173.lightspeed.toldoh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:51:39 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-45-236.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:52:24 axion [~axion@lngdnd-ai02-74-214-211-129.utma.com] has joined #lisp 16:53:00 -!- bjorkintosh [~bjork@ip68-13-229-200.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:53:55 -!- jute [~Thunderbi@31.212.107.98] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:54:03 hiato [~hiato@41-133-0-51.dsl.mweb.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:54:17 ahoops [~ahoops__@121.96.14.223] has joined #lisp 16:55:20 -!- syrinx [~quassel@unaffiliated/syrinx-/x-4255893] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:57:40 newbie question: is there a way to get a variable which is scoped to just the function in which it's defined in CL? 16:57:41 -!- Adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.0] 16:58:20 sortof in between let and defvar, say 17:01:22 let does that>? 17:01:43 Adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 17:02:13 depend of what mean betweem defvar and let, i can't imagine, :) 17:02:19 hehe 17:03:39 fantazo [~fantazo@213.129.230.10] has joined #lisp 17:03:39 nialo: (let ((var 42)) (defun f () (incf var))) (list (f) (f) (f)) --> (43 44 45) 17:03:49 alpha123 [~peter@71-218-191-135.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 17:04:13 I want this to work: http://pastebin.com/SnzLFDY5 17:04:19 or something approximately like it 17:04:35 This is totally contrary to the lisp philosophy. 17:04:38 haha 17:04:40 przl [~przlrkt@p4FE64367.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 17:04:43 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-45-236.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:04:47 alch___ [~michael@EM117-55-68-130.emobile.ad.jp] has joined #lisp 17:04:50 But you could do it, defining your own define-function. 17:05:01 fair. because I don't know, how specifically? 17:05:19 why do you want that? 17:05:26 -!- pranavrc [~pranavrc@unaffiliated/pranavrc] has quit [Quit: Ping timeout: ] 17:05:29 -!- Praise [~Fat@unaffiliated/praise] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:05:51 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:06:15 (how is it contrary to the philosophy, not how do I write the define-funtion) 17:06:19 nialo: Are you new to lisp? 17:06:24 yes 17:06:27 ah :) 17:06:27 new enough, anyway 17:06:38 I can tell by people who don't like let :P 17:06:48 hello, xach 17:06:54 nialo: use let 17:07:04 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-45-236.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:07:11 I used to think it was really weird, but now I keep wanting it in other languages. :) 17:08:27 I can work out how to make let work, but I am still curious about how/why that's against the lisp philosophy? 17:09:12 not entirely sure why it's against the lisp philosophy (I am fairly new as well), but once you get used to it it is surprisingly clean and easy 17:09:35 nialo: why do you want to do this? 17:09:41 nialo: http://paste.lisp.org/display/137198 17:09:49 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 17:10:17 nialo: but it is bad, because now we have to think harder about where x is defined. 17:10:17 stassats: I added a test for (with-ndc ()) not clobbering global, it seems to work on SBCL/CCL/CLISP, but I guess not unbinding is better then clobbering, so I'll test progv way, if it does not break above 3, I'll switch to it 17:10:33 also pjb, how does this philosophy jive with declarations 17:10:47 nialo: also, the next thing you will want is: (define-function f (x) (if (zerop x) (let (y 42)) (let (z 42))) (list y z)) and boom! 17:10:47 pjb: woah, that's a cool demonstration of macros 17:10:58 Hey folks - I'm just checking something - the CLHS is pretty clear but I've misinterpreted it sometimes. In a standard implementation of INVOKE-DEBUGGER, INVOKE-DEBUGGER must check *debugger-hook* and if *debugger-hook* is not nil the function that it is bound to is called with the condition and the value of *debugger-hook* with *debugger-hook* set to nil. If it returns then the debugger is invoked - correct? 17:11:21 n1x [~n1x@unaffiliated/n1xnc0d3] has joined #lisp 17:11:27 I'm just paraphrasing what the CLHS says. 17:11:41 Yes. 17:12:25 There may be restarts, eg at the level of the REPL, to let the debugger hook not return locally. 17:12:41 And does it matter what the value of *debugger-hook* is if/when the debugger is invoked? 17:12:57 tigranes [~tigranes@static-50-53-64-118.bvtn.or.frontiernet.net] has joined #lisp 17:13:24 It does, if there's a bug in the debugger 17:14:25 pjb: Oh - dealing with bugs in the error handling and debugger is what I'm working through right now - leads to infinite loops - nasty stuff. What would you recommend *debugger-hook* be going into the debugger? 17:14:58 sellout- [~Adium@pat-ip-195-91-111-241.flarion.as5628.telecom.sk] has joined #lisp 17:15:22 Right, it doesn't seem to be specified. 17:15:59 so I think part of my problem was not realizing I can write like this: http://pastebin.com/hxSVdn2G and partly being mildly sad that each new set of variables adds a set of parens/indentation level. the second I can get over, and I can see how that makes it easier to find where things are defined 17:16:42 drmeister: in ccl, the binding to nil of *debugger-hook* is around the funcall hook. So when the debugger is entered, *debugger-hook* is bound to the hook. 17:17:07 progv worked, switched to it 17:17:11 same in clisp 17:18:11 same in sbcl 17:18:28 pjb: That's what I'll do then, wrap the (let ((hook *debugger-hook*) (*debugger-hook* nil)) -invoke hook-) (invoke-actual-debugger)) 17:18:36 Give or take a parenthesis 17:19:04 there seems to be a concensus. Anyways, it's the simpliest implementation: (progn (let ((hook *debugger-hook*)) (let ((*debugger-hook* nil)) (funcall hook condition hook))) (the-internal-debugger condition)) 17:19:04 Thanks. 17:19:39 -!- Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:19:54 -!- davazp [~user@178.167.191.56.threembb.ie] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:20:18 nialo: you can write: (let ((y (random 2))) (let ((x (cond ((= y 0) 10) ((= y 1) 20)))) x)) 17:20:22 ha, sbcl's invoke-debugger uses a function run-hook to do that, and it involves progv 17:20:33 -!- sdemarre [~serge@109.134.143.224] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:20:52 Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 17:20:54 -!- elkng [~elkng@unaffiliated/elkng] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:21:16 nialo: also you can write: (let ((x 1) (y 2) (z 3)) (list x y z)) so each new variable does NOT increase the level of parentheses! 17:21:48 O 17:22:06 I'm amazed at how hard it is to read code inline in IRC :P 17:22:12 And instead of writing (let ((x 1)) (let ((y (+ x 1))) (let ((z (+ x y))) z))) you can write (let* ((x 1) (y (+ x 1)) (z (+ x y))) z) so still no deepth. 17:22:22 Copy and paste it and reformat it. 17:23:01 You could also write an erc filter to format it in-line. 17:23:07 hehehe 17:24:01 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p4FE64367.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:24:39 does your filter support #1 :-) 17:25:07 #= and ## do you mean? 17:25:28 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu2.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 17:25:47 yea 17:25:49 #. would be harder to support: you'd have to write a custom reader macro. 17:26:20 there was someone in here having an eval bot, and he did pretty good job of proofing it against exploits 17:28:09 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@musicbrainz/user/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:28:24 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@ip68-99-254-231.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 17:28:25 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@ip68-99-254-231.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Changing host] 17:28:25 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@musicbrainz/user/ianmcorvidae] has joined #lisp 17:29:23 -!- Kabaka [kabaka@botters/kabaka] has quit [Excess Flood] 17:29:49 -!- bhyde [~bhyde@c-24-61-81-138.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: bhyde] 17:30:34 -!- alch___ [~michael@EM117-55-68-130.emobile.ad.jp] has quit [Quit: alch___] 17:32:18 Kabaka [kabaka@botters/kabaka] has joined #lisp 17:32:24 -!- ckoch786 [~quassel@108-70-143-173.lightspeed.toldoh.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:33:15 -!- n1x [~n1x@unaffiliated/n1xnc0d3] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:33:28 chameco [~samuel@cpe-67-241-240-138.stny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:34:15 pnpuff [~C6248@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 17:34:25 -!- rszeno [~rszeno@79.114.98.5] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:34:26 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@92.46.1.59] has joined #lisp 17:34:27 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@92.46.1.59] has quit [Changing host] 17:34:27 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 17:36:29 -!- LiamH [~none@pool-173-73-133-61.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:36:54 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-70.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:38:02 -!- milosn [~milosn@user-5af50b7a.broadband.tesco.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 17:39:09 miql [~miql@ip72-201-117-127.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 17:40:07 -!- pnpuff [~C6248@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has left #lisp 17:41:20 alch___ [~michael@EM117-55-68-130.emobile.ad.jp] has joined #lisp 17:41:45 -!- foreignFunction [~niksaak@ip-4761.sunline.net.ua] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:42:53 hoyang [~hoyang@218.11.176.27] has joined #lisp 17:43:50 puchacz [~puchacz@46-65-36-47.zone16.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 17:45:04 milosn [~milosn@user-5af50b7a.broadband.tesco.net] has joined #lisp 17:46:32 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:46:35 Stylistically, would it be better to define a structure that is only used internally in one function, or use property lists instead? 17:47:17 I wouldn't base my decision on style. 17:47:47 I prefer structures or classes, even if they're one-off. 17:48:32 go with classes, I would change log4cl logger back to class, but for some reason it was a challenge to get loaded on top of old version with things not blowing up 17:49:03 but if I was designing from new, screw structures. Locks you into old design, and prevents refactoring, especially if code will be used by others 17:49:09 Eg. if you hare just using it to pass data between two phases of your function, the a plist or just a list would be ok. If you it in a complex algorithm on a lot of data, perhaps a structure would be more efficient both in time and in space? 17:49:22 przl [~przlrkt@p4FE64367.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 17:49:57 maxm: I don't see how structures are locking you into old design, I never had any difficulty in refactoring structures into classes. 17:50:04 -!- hiato [~hiato@41-133-0-51.dsl.mweb.co.za] has quit [Quit: here we go] 17:50:36 Yeah, I don't particularly like classes. 17:51:08 pjb: well for one you get big exception from SBCL about layout changes, old FASL's won't load and such 17:51:14 (BTW, maxm: Excellent work on log4cl, I've started using it a few days back and it's been a pleasure!) 17:51:16 -!- alch___ [~michael@EM117-55-68-130.emobile.ad.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:51:31 alch___ [~michael@184.164.149.234] has joined #lisp 17:51:45 maxm: do you expect a lot of users to load the new version of your library in their old running images? 17:52:46 pjb: actually I have no idea about number of users, its more of an "industrial" type library, that is you need to commit yourself to "I'll have pervaisive logging in my app" 17:52:59 pjb: It is just passing information, but I was trying to make the code more readable by giving things names rather than have (cons (car x) (cdar x)) type formations. I think I'll try a plist and see how that goes. 17:53:07 pjb: but I had some bug reports from ppl on lispworks/allegro, which I assume indicates probably a commercial user 17:53:29 Thanks for the input! 17:53:36 tigranes: if it becomes unreadable, then indeed use defstruct! 17:53:46 tigranes: thanks for the kind words.. I know rocks, but its nice to have ppl acknowledge it :-) 17:53:54 "i know it rocks" 17:53:57 :) 17:54:31 maxm: my question was whether you expect users to have problem because one version of your library uses defstruct and another defclass. 17:54:44 tigranes: you could define my-foo = car, my-bar = cdar, and so on, and then change their definitions later when you decide you're sick of plists, so you can change things without too much pain 17:55:33 Hmm, didn't consider that. Could just have a little FLET to give things useful names. Thanks! 17:55:39 -!- seangrove [~user@c-69-181-197-122.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:55:43 pjb: well I for myself was a use case.. Loading new version into my 5-months uptime stumpwm was flawless victory 17:56:04 Praise [~Fat@unaffiliated/praise] has joined #lisp 17:56:08 ok, in that case indeed, go with clos from the start. 17:56:26 and yes "nuke everything and reload" is valid strategy, but power of lisp is you don't have to do it often 17:56:52 thats why defclass really shines, I did not understood it yet when I started on log4cl 17:57:19 sdemarre [~serge@109.134.143.224] has joined #lisp 17:57:20 creidieki [~creidieki@thingy.cs.umass.edu] has joined #lisp 17:57:41 seangrove [~user@c-69-181-197-122.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:58:34 -!- hoyang [~hoyang@218.11.176.27] has quit [Quit: ] 17:58:49 maxm: curious, did you use update-instance-for-redefined-class? 17:58:57 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-45-236.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:59:59 -!- zajn [~zajn@c-67-182-61-90.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: zajn] 18:00:32 Bike: no have not had a chance.. Does it call shared-initialize? 18:00:36 coz I use that 18:00:59 it does 18:01:08 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-45-236.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 18:01:44 it's just one of the weird corners of clos and you seem more likely to need it than most people 18:02:04 no I'm not anywhere near an "advanced" CLOS user 18:02:52 just using it in a pedestrian way, ie so my window is a class, which has subwindows, which has views with attached axii 18:03:21 there are guys doing much more with it, mostly in implementing persistance via metaclass 18:03:56 jocke_pirat [~kgarricks@c-75-73-84-128.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:05:56 n1x [~n1x@unaffiliated/n1xnc0d3] has joined #lisp 18:06:00 -!- n1x [~n1x@unaffiliated/n1xnc0d3] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:06:25 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-45-236.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:06:39 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p4FE64367.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 18:08:23 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-45-236.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 18:09:12 -!- em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Quit: As a wild ass in the desert go I forth to my work] 18:11:04 przl [~przlrkt@p5DCA3B42.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 18:13:24 alch____ [~michael@EM117-55-68-140.emobile.ad.jp] has joined #lisp 18:15:43 -!- alch___ [~michael@184.164.149.234] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 18:15:44 -!- alch____ is now known as alch___ 18:16:48 -!- My_Hearing [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:19:12 Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 18:20:09 ckoch786 [~quassel@108-70-143-173.lightspeed.toldoh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:21:47 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu2.unidsl.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:21:58 kenanb [~user@unaffiliated/kenanb] has joined #lisp 18:24:46 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-45-236.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:25:52 My_Hearing [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 18:26:19 is it possible to define a loop that will have two variables, the value of one variable will only tick when the value of the second finished at upto value and reset 18:26:46 just like having two nested loops with one variable each 18:26:53 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-45-236.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 18:27:06 but in one straight loop 18:27:41 how about using two nested loops? 18:27:41 kenanb: sure. 18:29:24 stassats: I am completely ok with it, in fact I already used two nested loops, just that loop has many features I don't know yet and I would love to learn new ones as I go 18:29:37 See rloop: https://gitorious.org/com-informatimago/emacs/blobs/master/pjb-emacs.el#line1739 18:29:46 kenanb: no, there's no such thing 18:29:58 do? 18:32:53 pnpuff [~C6248@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 18:33:16 thanks stassats pjb :) 18:34:05 -!- josemanuel [~josemanue@48.226.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: Saliendo] 18:34:37 and thanks jocke_pirat :) 18:35:07 pjb: I'll definitely consider your rloop macro if I see the need for such loops multiple times in the project 18:36:23 Well, I used it only once, but for half a dozen embedded loops! 18:37:21 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-45-236.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:37:30 pjb: yeah, I realized that, it can combine any degree of nesting in a single loop I guess 18:38:26 I am not really good with macros, I just realized it is recursive. 18:39:19 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-45-236.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 18:42:32 doomlord___ [~servitor@host86-166-20-249.range86-166.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 18:43:54 -!- doomlord__ [~servitor@host81-151-239-189.range81-151.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:46:20 -!- alch___ [~michael@EM117-55-68-140.emobile.ad.jp] has quit [Quit: alch___] 18:46:54 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p5DCA3B42.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:47:19 przl [~przlrkt@p5DCA3B42.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 18:50:47 the expression I wanted to simplify was (make-array '(12 12) :initial-contents (loop for i upto 11 collecting (loop for j upto 11 collecting (random 2)))) 18:51:05 i just wanted to create an array of random 0s and 1s :) 18:51:07 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-45-236.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:51:16 a 2d array of course 18:51:48 you could use row-major-aref 18:52:42 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-45-236.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 18:52:44 foreignFunction [~niksaak@ip-4761.sunline.net.ua] has joined #lisp 18:53:57 Bike: I checked the CLHS for raw-major-array but I didn't see how you meant I can use it 18:54:01 -!- teggi [~teggi@123.20.50.245] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:54:57 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:55:19 kenanb: just loop with row-major-aref and array-total-size instead of worrying about dimensional access 18:55:43 pnpuff_ [~C6248@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 18:57:58 (loop with result = (make-array '(12 12) :element-type 'bit) for index from 0 below (array-total-size result) do (\ 18:58:01 setf (row-major-aref result index) (random 2)) finally (return result)) 18:58:43 -!- pnpuff [~C6248@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:59:07 francogrex [~user@46.69-200-80.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 18:59:19 -!- bitonic [~user@dyn1220-150.wlan.ic.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:59:25 -!- pnpuff_ is now known as pnpuff 19:01:28 bitonic [~user@wavelan25-107.dynip.doc.ic.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 19:06:41 molbdnilo [~Ove@c80-216-201-251.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 19:07:41 Bike: that is indeed cool :) 19:10:53 -!- My_Hearing [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.0] 19:13:44 yes , but I suppose there are a lot of limitations concerning the dimension of the array 19:14:18 *dimensions* 19:16:46 -!- molbdnilo [~Ove@c80-216-201-251.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Quit: molbdnilo] 19:17:17 -!- agumonkey [~agu@45.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:19:00 tarleb [~user@port-53395.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 19:20:53 Paul256 [~Paul@89.249.217.82] has joined #lisp 19:21:13 hey 19:21:30 is anybody there? 19:21:51 Yes. 19:22:08 i've got a lisp question, do u mind? 19:22:14 Go ahead. 19:22:42 when should i use the `` and the ,, 19:22:43 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-45-236.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:23:04 i can't understand their use 19:23:14 they're mostly used in macros 19:23:28 When you want to construct code according to some template. 19:23:44 Paul256: that took me a while to get. Basically ` is just like ' except things with , in front are evaluated 19:24:23 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-45-236.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:25:17 i'm specifically trying to understand the only-once macro 19:25:50 it's from "Practical common lisp" book and i can't for the life of me wrap my head around it 19:26:06 it uses a lot of double backticks and double commas 19:26:11 Doesn't it have an example use? 19:26:13 i guess i'm missing something 19:26:27 Probably you should try macroexpanding it to watch what it does. 19:26:55 i tried everything, i can't get it 19:26:57 here it is 19:27:00 (defmacro once-only ((&rest names) &body body) (let ((gensyms (loop for n in names collect (gensym)))) `(let (,@(loop for g in gensyms collect `(,g (gensym)))) `(let (,,@(loop for g in gensyms for n in names collect ``(,,g ,,n))) ,(let (,@(loop for n in names for g in gensyms collect `(,n ,g))) ,@body))))) 19:27:06 Yeah, it's common. 19:27:28 I mean, try (macroexpand-1 '(once-only (foo bar) bar)) or something. 19:28:50 i tried evaluating ''(,,1 ,2 3) and i ended up with (LIST* 1 (LIST* 2 '(3))) 19:29:06 I tried macroexpand-1 too 19:29:13 what is list*? 19:29:31 LiamH [~none@pool-173-73-133-61.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:29:43 (list* 1 2 3) is (cons 1 (cons 2 3)) 19:29:45 clhs list* 19:29:45 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_list_.htm 19:29:56 Paul256: you need to understand how macroexpansion time and runtime is related first, if you already wrapped your head around it, it gets extremely easy to understand what ` and , mean. 19:31:07 -!- francogrex [~user@46.69-200-80.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:31:08 i know what ` and , mean, i just don't get what a `` and a ,, are supposed to do 19:31:19 a macro is first macro expanded when evaluated, then the result of macro-expansion is evaluated. the code encapsulated with ` is not evaluated at macroexpansion except the ones inside that are encapsulated with , 19:31:33 Paul256: it means it's a template that expands into another template. 19:31:50 so it has to be expanded two times? 19:32:11 yes, once-only is intended to be used in macros 19:32:26 ohh 19:32:28 so, the first level of templating expands in the maccro code, into a template 19:33:41 so the second `let will be spitted out as is, but why the double commas inside? 19:34:25 because some things need to be evaluated as part of once-only's expansion, and other things are evaluated as part of the macro it's used in's expansion 19:34:52 if you're in an implementation where ` forms just print with list* and so on, it might be worth it to just paste the quoted once-only definition into your repl to see what it's read in as 19:35:46 ok 19:35:53 i'm already at reply 19:36:01 i tried everything there 19:38:32 i still didn't get it, can you walk me through it. i just need to understand the last two "let"s, the '(let... and the ,(let.. 19:39:56 ok, so, the first `(let ...) is what a (once-only ...) form expands to. so (once-only ...) is replaced with the computed (let ([result of loop over gensyms here]) ...) and all. 19:40:11 right 19:40:26 Then that form is evaluated as part of the expansion of the macro using once-only, resulting in the inner `(let ) 19:40:59 ok 19:41:14 but everything in the second inner let won't be evaluated in once-only 19:41:28 incldue the ,,@(loop for g... 19:41:33 right? 19:42:01 since it's got a double comma that's evaluated during once-only's expansion, not the inner let 19:42:21 Is there any good reading about such kind of macros (with `` and ,, I mean). The topic seems cool, so I'm trying to find something but without success at the moment. 19:43:07 so ,, use is two evaluate something from an nested backquote? 19:43:14 a* 19:43:19 you could say that 19:43:37 then one question arises 19:43:50 ,,@(loop for g in gensyms for n in names collect ``(,,g ,,n)) 19:44:09 why did use that and not ...collect `(,g ,n) 19:45:06 did he use* 19:45:16 try rewriting that without the backquotes as i suggested: (loop for g in gensyms for n in names collect (list 'list g n)), versus your (loop for g in gensyms for n in names collect (list g n)) 19:46:38 (setf *deneme* 2) 19:46:41 wups 19:46:42 :D 19:46:49 what would happen? 19:47:03 sorry, I thought this was the listener buffer :D 19:47:30 -!- Eldariof-ru [~CLD@188.168.242.178] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:47:52 Paul256: the two loops obviously return different results. 19:48:30 -!- gemelen_ is now known as gemelen 19:48:56 agumonkey [~agu@45.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 19:49:06 cdidd [~cdidd@95-27-25-6.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 19:49:08 ``(,,g ,,n) is returning (list* g (list n)) 19:49:17 that's the same 19:49:25 as what i said, i mean 19:49:34 and how is that? 19:49:47 (list* g (list n)) is (cons g (list n)) is (list g n) 19:50:04 what's list*, i know u answered that before, but i didn't get it. what's cons? 19:50:25 I'm not sure there's any hope of you understanding double backquoting if you don't even know what cons is... 19:50:44 i looked it up on google and it said something about pointers 19:50:46 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-106-208.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:50:48 minion: tell Paul256 about gentle 19:50:48 Paul256: look at gentle: "Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation" is a smoother introduction to lisp programming. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/ 19:50:56 i know what pointers are, i'm very fluent in c/C++ 19:50:57 Cons is a construct which holds two atoms 19:50:57 -!- sdemarre [~serge@109.134.143.224] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:50:59 -!- Shinmera [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:51:16 Paul256: they're not pointers, whatever resource that is isn't going to help you. 19:52:59 -!- chameco [~samuel@cpe-67-241-240-138.stny.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:53:09 rudi [~rudi@cm-84.209.196.13.getinternet.no] has joined #lisp 19:53:34 mostly out of curiosity, what's the difference beetween things in cons cells and pointers? (is there just a link I should read?) 19:53:35 bhyde [~bhyde@c-24-61-81-138.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:54:13 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-45-236.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:54:26 i'm not sure if there's any useful analogy with pointers to be made 19:54:27 hiato [~hiato@41-133-0-51.dsl.mweb.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:54:29 what are the use on cons if it's a mere list of two values 19:54:31 ? 19:54:55 it's a simple data structure that you can use for lots of stuff 19:55:08 linked lists are the obvious. you have the car be an object, and the cdr be the rest of the list. 19:55:45 ohh, ok 19:55:48 i get it now 19:56:02 it's like a value-pair object in a hash table, right? 19:56:04 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-45-236.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:56:48 you should really read gentle instead of listening to me 19:57:07 kennyd [~kennyd@93-139-122-228.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 19:57:14 hash tables aren't usually implemented with pairs of keys and values, though, as far as i know 19:57:14 i'm ok if u don't mind 19:58:22 i'm wasn't talking about the low-level implementating. but it sounds reasonable that a search function would return a cons 19:58:37 assoc does, but that's not a hash table. 19:58:50 hash tables generally work by using a hash function on the key, turning it into an array index. 19:59:24 gotcha 19:59:57 i believe the best simplification of my nested loops is this: 19:59:57 let's go back to list*, how do cons apply here? 20:00:00 (do ((i 0 (incf i)) (a (make-array '(12 12)))) ((= i 144) a) (setf (row-major-aref a i) (random 2))) 20:00:08 A list is a chain of cons cells 20:00:21 or (do ((i 0 (1+ i)) (a (make-array '(12 12)))) ((= i 144) a) (setf (row-major-aref a i) (random 2))) 20:00:26 (list* a) is a, and (list* a ...) is (cons a (list* ...)) 20:00:44 (a.(b.(c.nil))) = (a b c) 20:01:14 iirc 20:01:36 Shinmera [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 20:01:51 aha 20:01:59 -!- Nosceteipsum [~Nosceteip@c192050.adsl.hansenet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:02:59 Nosceteipsum [~Nosceteip@d204087.adsl.hansenet.de] has joined #lisp 20:03:03 Fare [~fare@173-9-65-97-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 20:04:22 can 0 and 1 be considered true false forms in lisp? 20:04:37 nope 20:04:50 nialo: search Conses on http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~ggordon/lisp-hints.txt 20:04:57 thanks! 20:05:32 ehu [~Erik@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 20:06:41 -!- hiato [~hiato@41-133-0-51.dsl.mweb.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:06:44 cons are included in my book, but in a later chapter. I guess i should skip over the only-once macro for now and get back to it when i'm done with cons 20:07:17 in fact, only-once was included as a sidebar challenge 20:07:25 oh, pcl does have cons after macros, doesn't it 20:07:26 Im surprised cons isnt one of the first things 20:07:44 yea 20:07:59 hiato [~hiato@41-133-0-51.dsl.mweb.co.za] has joined #lisp 20:07:59 -!- hiato [~hiato@41-133-0-51.dsl.mweb.co.za] has quit [Client Quit] 20:08:35 hiato [~hiato@41-133-0-51.dsl.mweb.co.za] has joined #lisp 20:08:40 j`ey: http://www.n-a-n-o.com/lisp/cmucl-tutorials/LISP-tutorial-5.html 20:09:01 Ammy [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 20:09:15 pnpuff: i dont need that 20:10:07 -!- Shinmera [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:10:15 well, this is a lovely chat room; i really enjoyed it. Thanks for the help people, you're awesome! 20:10:28 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-45-236.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:10:44 Thanks Bike! 20:10:50 much obliged. 20:10:59 :) 20:11:11 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:11:46 -!- Paul256 [~Paul@89.249.217.82] has quit [Quit: irc2go] 20:12:31 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-45-236.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 20:15:32 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@rrcs-108-178-120-144.sw.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: normanrichards] 20:17:17 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-70.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:21:04 -!- Kobain [~kobian@unaffiliated/kobain] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:21:20 Kobain [~kobian@unaffiliated/kobain] has joined #lisp 20:22:55 Dalek_Baldwin [~Adium@71-84-34-33.dhcp.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has joined #lisp 20:26:34 -!- rudi [~rudi@cm-84.209.196.13.getinternet.no] has quit [Quit: rudi] 20:26:51 ehu` 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[~pierre1@186.205.149.74] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:51:44 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p5DCA3B42.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:51:44 pierre1 [~pierre1@186.205.149.74] has joined #lisp 21:52:46 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-70.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:54:20 -!- sklr [~clarkema@31.222.178.169] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:56:47 -!- eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:00:59 -!- ehu` [~ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:01:49 -!- _veer [~veer@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 22:03:49 -!- miql [~miql@ip72-201-117-127.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:04:31 So I have ECL conditions.lsp now compiling and ERROR now invokes the interactive debugger and COMPUTE-RESTARTS and INVOKE-RESTARTS should work. 22:05:15 Is that how interactive restarts from the CL debugger are supposed to be invoked. I should use COMPUTE-RESTARTS to get the list of currently available restarts and then INVOKE-RESTART to invoke whichever one the user wants? 22:05:42 miql [~miql@ip72-201-117-127.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 22:06:29 sounds about right? 22:08:17 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-4d003b1c.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 22:08:19 I guess at this point then I should write a new REPL in Common Lisp (my current one is in C++) that is wrapped within a RESTART-CASE and provides a top-level restart? 22:09:55 I'll try it and see what happens. 22:11:10 I know these seem like funny questions but while the first thing everyone else sees when they start with CL is the REPL and the first error gives you a bunch of restarts - I'm coming at this from a completely different direction. I've spent a year writing a new Common Lisp environment and I just got RESTART-CASE working. 22:11:49 I've never had restarts before - they are new and shiny. 22:12:03 przl [~przlrkt@p5DCA3B42.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 22:12:26 -!- Ammy [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 22:12:31 drmeister: you could try things out in other implementations. 22:12:53 drmeister: after all, the purpose of Common Lisp is to have implementations that have a language in common. 22:13:00 Shinmera [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 22:13:19 Yeah, I'm not being completely serious - I've used SBCL and ECL a fair amount but I wouldn't say I'm very experienced writing code in Common Lisp. 22:13:41 k-stz [~user@HSI-KBW-095-208-250-034.hsi5.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 22:14:35 But I am serious about the top-level restart - I've never had restarts before - my current repl (written in C++) dumps a stack trace and dies. 22:14:39 warren` [~user@76-10-185-253.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 22:14:58 you writing the a new implementation? 22:15:13 maxm: yes 22:15:17 I thought ECL was considered CL, ie it had all of that 22:16:24 Question: core images (sbcl) are not intended to be distributed and run on other machines, right? 22:16:27 maxm: It is, it does and I'm hosting the ECL CL code. But I haven't gotten to ECL's REPL code - that's an idea though - I'll go look for it. 22:16:30 drmeister: interactive restarts are invoked with invoke-restart-interactively 22:16:40 drmeister: ah ok.. 22:16:48 anyway thats very impressive 22:16:50 stassats: I fixed my FORMAT problem. 22:16:55 what was it? 22:17:12 farthest I got was bootstrapping 32-bit forth in flat mode when i386's just came out 22:17:34 My FUNCALL function was slicing multiple-value returns down to the first value. It's an artifact from when I improved how I handle multiple-values a couple of months ago. 22:17:47 pawel` [~user@c-68-63-164-229.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:17:52 It's surprising that it didn't cause more serious problems. 22:18:09 *maxm* could probably whip out a C compiler that would generate some horrible code, but GC/lambdas/black/gray/white memory areas thing is way beyond me :-) 22:18:44 altho with moore law extending the way of multi-cores now 22:19:18 would be nice to have CL implementation, that supported threads, and incremental GC (ie no stop-the-world) 22:19:20 Now FORMAT works and it also fixed an infinite loop that I had at the tail end of the CLOS bootstrapping procedure. 22:19:55 coz stop-the-world really kills performance, if you churning with 4+ threads.. Need to increase bytes-consed-between to huge value, which results in 10-second GC pauses 22:19:59 Don't all CL's (other than mine) support threads? 22:20:08 they do, but on GC they stop all of them 22:20:31 so if you have a computation that does lots of consing, such as expirimenting with various machine learning methods 22:20:59 When people say "lots of consing" - what do they mean by that? 22:21:04 and loading all cores with workers (GA/machine-learning is really very nicely parralelizable) 22:21:13 drmeister: consing more than usual 22:21:18 Does it just mean lots of (CONS x y) calls and the associated memory allocation? 22:21:22 yea 22:21:29 no, it's not related to CONS 22:21:31 it means memory allocation in general 22:21:45 creating a lot of objects.. Even though SBCL is optimized for creating and destroying lots of very fast lived objects 22:21:46 IIRC it's only called consing for historical reasons or something 22:22:13 -!- chameco [~samuel@cpe-67-241-240-138.stny.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 22:22:17 clhs glossary/cons 22:22:18 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/26_glo_c.htm#cons 22:22:26 third value 22:22:27 "optimized" here is in the context of single thread.. GC pauses all threads, which kills parallel performance (at least for me), unless I bump bytes-consed-between-gcss to like 4 gig 22:22:32 third definition 22:22:53 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:23:04 -!- p_nathan [~vlion@76.178.163.213] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 22:27:10 robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:27:33 -!- MoALTz [~no@host86-137-69-242.range86-137.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:29:21 drmeister: Try (room t) in clisp 22:29:58 -!- robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:30:13 pjb: I see. 22:30:13 robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:30:21 Usually CONS is on the first line, hence "consing". 22:31:02 hence? 22:31:42 it's because they come from the same word "construct" 22:32:11 not because it happened to be on the first line of ROOM output somewhere 22:32:21 -!- cdidd [~cdidd@95-27-25-6.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:32:23 I just found the ECL top-level loop code in ecl/src/lsp/top.lsp ---> I think I'll adopt it - it offers a lot of functionality. 22:32:52 MoALTz [~no@host86-137-69-242.range86-137.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 22:33:32 stassats: it's just because in LISP, there was only CONS, and everything else was allocated by calling CONS. 22:35:32 "let there be CONS" 22:38:15 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:38:39 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p5DCA3B42.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 22:44:05 -!- kenanb [~user@unaffiliated/kenanb] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:44:31 -!- Bike [~Glossina@c-24-21-88-250.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: goner] 22:49:51 bitonic [~user@151.225.21.97] has joined #lisp 22:50:00 -!- edgar-rft [~GOD@HSI-KBW-149-172-63-75.hsi13.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Quit: sigh] 22:50:24 ECL maintains an Invocation-History-Stack - a list of the names of the functions that are invoked together with their lexical environments. Does anyone know what this is for? 22:50:33 davazp [~user@92.251.248.177.threembb.ie] has joined #lisp 22:50:33 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 22:50:44 -!- warren` [~user@76-10-185-253.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: dinner] 22:53:56 Strigoides [~owen@114-134-0-40.lightwire.co.nz] has joined #lisp 22:53:58 benkard [~benkard@mnch-4d04dd00.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 23:03:18 Bike [~Glossina@67-5-225-220.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 23:05:20 -!- stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-017-178.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 23:05:33 drmeister: debugging. 23:06:04 creidieki [~creidieki@pool-151-203-185-22.wma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:06:16 How does it work? 23:06:46 It's all over the place in ecl/src/lsp/top.lsp and not much is said about it. 23:06:47 There must be some function to walk the frame stack, and get the name of the function and the contents of the lexical environment. 23:07:13 drmeister: If you don't get it from the sources, you could find entry points in slime/swank. 23:09:03 So its the current stack of functions that have been invoked? 23:09:17 I have one of those. 23:09:29 yes, most probably. 23:11:04 Hmm, then I'll have to figure out how to make mine look like theirs - same-old, same-old 23:11:56 _veer [~veer@pool-71-100-236-211.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:11:56 -!- _veer [~veer@pool-71-100-236-211.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 23:11:56 _veer [~veer@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 23:20:15 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 23:20:41 -!- k-stz [~user@HSI-KBW-095-208-250-034.hsi5.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has left #lisp 23:28:49 -!- ckoch786 [~quassel@108-70-143-173.lightspeed.toldoh.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:34:05 -!- d11wtq [~chris@124-148-163-108.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:34:22 d11wtq [~chris@124-148-163-108.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 23:34:31 Guthur` [~user@eth2845.sa.adsl.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 23:35:19 Beetny_ [~Beetny@ppp118-208-50-42.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 23:36:06 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-50-42.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:36:06 -!- Beetny_ is now known as Beetny 23:36:27 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:36:27 -!- Guthur [~user@eth2845.sa.adsl.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 23:38:27 -!- LiamH [~none@pool-173-73-133-61.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:42:05 p_nathan [~vlion@w142148.wireless.fsr.net] has joined #lisp 23:43:19 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 23:43:59 -!- benkard [~benkard@mnch-4d04dd00.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:44:07 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:44:42 przl [~przlrkt@p5DCA3B42.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 23:47:11 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 23:48:40 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:48:55 -!- nialo [~nialo@ool-44c53f01.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [] 23:48:55 -!- akovalenko [~user@195.18.46.21] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 23:49:18 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p5DCA3B42.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:49:27 benkard [~benkard@mnch-4d04dd00.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 23:51:44 -!- benkard [~benkard@mnch-4d04dd00.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Client Quit] 23:51:47 -!- Nosceteipsum [~Nosceteip@d204087.adsl.hansenet.de] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 23:52:25 ASau` [~user@p5797E672.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 23:53:47 -!- ASau [~user@p4FF96377.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:55:12 -!- ASau` is now known as ASau 23:56:01 Lefeni [~Lefeni@c-da4ae555.143-16-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 23:57:33 bhyde [~bhyde@c-24-61-81-138.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:59:00 chu [~user@unaffiliated/chu] has joined #lisp