00:04:53 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:08:45 -!- groovy2shoes [~cory@unaffiliated/groovebot] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 00:08:59 -!- sambio [~sambio@unaffiliated/sambio] has quit [] 00:09:52 -!- PuercoPop [~user@190.41.173.174] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:10:00 PuercoPop [~user@190.41.173.174] has joined #lisp 00:10:58 -!- sw2wolf [~czsq888@171.214.175.209] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:12:41 banjara [~Adium@unaffiliated/banjara] has joined #lisp 00:14:59 -!- davazp [~user@212.129.66.122] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:16:03 sw2wolf [~czsq888@171.214.175.209] has joined #lisp 00:17:50 az [~andre@kettu.znaider.de] has joined #lisp 00:27:33 -!- amak [~amak@89-180-24-65.net.novis.pt] has left #lisp 00:29:25 kvda [~kvda@unaffiliated/kvda] has joined #lisp 00:29:25 -!- kvda [~kvda@unaffiliated/kvda] has quit [Excess Flood] 00:31:41 -!- banjara [~Adium@unaffiliated/banjara] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:33:06 walter [~walter@c-24-218-217-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:33:19 banjara [~Adium@unaffiliated/banjara] has joined #lisp 00:36:14 kvda [~kvda@unaffiliated/kvda] has joined #lisp 00:36:14 -!- kvda [~kvda@unaffiliated/kvda] has quit [Excess Flood] 00:37:07 -!- banjara [~Adium@unaffiliated/banjara] has quit [Client Quit] 00:37:21 banjara [~Adium@unaffiliated/banjara] has joined #lisp 00:38:13 kvda [~kvda@unaffiliated/kvda] has joined #lisp 00:38:13 -!- kvda [~kvda@unaffiliated/kvda] has quit [Excess Flood] 00:39:57 DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@1.147.31.36] has joined #lisp 00:40:35 whenever i try loading GSLL i get the complaint "The variable OSICAT::*TEMPORARY-DIRECTORY* is unbound." 00:41:00 shouldn't osicat provide a default or detect or something? 00:43:26 -!- Thra11 [~thrall@92.114.112.87.dyn.plus.net] has quit [Quit: kthxbai] 00:43:42 shinypokemon [~stephen@pool-108-46-116-201.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:44:03 whats a good beginner's book to learn lisp 00:44:12 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Quit: o7] 00:45:04 -!- AeroNotix [~xeno@aboq38.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: Uploading hax.....] 00:45:46 actually i'm having trouble figuring out how osicat is even getting loaded... it's not in my central-registry nor anywhere in ~/quicklisp 00:46:22 shinypokemon: practical common lisp, paradigms of ai programming 00:46:37 alright cool thanks a lot 00:47:23 -!- banjara [~Adium@unaffiliated/banjara] has left #lisp 00:48:30 what do you think about learning scheme first using the little schemer and SICP 00:49:53 if you want to learn scheme great; if that's not a specific goal of yours i wouldn't bother 00:52:38 okay, so i do in fact have a copy of osicat sitting around in ~/devel/vendor but i can't for the life of me find out how or why ASDF is picking it up 00:52:53 mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-71-163-43-88.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:53:01 p_nathan [~Adium@76.178.163.213] has joined #lisp 00:54:21 wait there's a symlink in ~/.sbcl/systems... i would have thought asdf:*central-registry* would have to include that for it to get found... is there for example no way to exclude it? 00:54:32 no biggie though, but what is ~/.sbcl/site for and how does stuff end up there? 00:55:02 -!- Guest98016 [~lukas@194.228.13.29] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:55:10 vsync: asdf-install stuck stuff there 00:55:14 vsync: old-skool 00:55:18 -!- az [~andre@kettu.znaider.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:55:46 vsync: fyi, when i am curious where a system comes from, i use (ql:where-is-system "osicat") 00:56:20 i used asdf:system-definition-pathname 00:56:34 but it showed me the target not the symlink 00:57:17 LiamH [~none@pool-74-96-4-63.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:59:22 sambio [~sambio@unaffiliated/sambio] has joined #lisp 01:02:54 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@1.147.31.36] has quit [Quit: Bye] 01:07:52 -!- teiresias [~teiresias@archlinux/trusteduser/teiresias] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:08:58 teiresias [~teiresias@archlinux/trusteduser/teiresias] has joined #lisp 01:10:50 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:10:56 -!- jaimef [jaimef@dns.mauthesis.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:13:18 -!- gendl_ [~dcooper8@c-98-250-10-50.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: gendl_] 01:13:57 cades [~mac@59-124-92-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 01:15:49 -!- sambio [~sambio@unaffiliated/sambio] has quit [] 01:21:33 -!- edgar-rft [~GOD@HSI-KBW-149-172-63-75.hsi13.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Quit: dead] 01:28:33 Xach: another (traditional) name for ql:where-is-system could be (ql:which "osicat") 01:28:36 -!- mc40 [~mc@host86-148-31-142.range86-148.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi] 01:29:53 I'm not especially inspired by Unix tradition when it comes to Lispy things. 01:29:56 ehaliewicz [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 01:30:00 -!- Joreji_ [~thomas@vpn-ho1.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:31:19 ) 01:31:31 -!- ColonelJ [~shardfire@pdpc/supporter/student/colonelj] has quit [] 01:31:40 *Xach* will confess a fondness for ~/ working in pathnames 01:31:58 unix-haters 01:32:07 ) 01:33:05 Well, good design is not confined to either unix or lisp. 01:34:54 antonv_: my copy still has its barf-bag intact 01:35:04 )) 01:37:05 lukas_ [~lukas@194.228.13.232] has joined #lisp 01:37:07 jaimef [jaimef@dns.mauthesis.com] has joined #lisp 01:37:29 -!- lukas_ is now known as Guest31537 01:38:13 -!- PuercoPop [~user@190.41.173.174] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:38:16 banjara [~Adium@unaffiliated/banjara] has joined #lisp 01:38:29 -!- Amadiro [jonathri@dalvik.ping.uio.no] has quit [Excess Flood] 01:38:33 -!- banjara [~Adium@unaffiliated/banjara] has quit [Client Quit] 01:38:48 banjara [~Adium@unaffiliated/banjara] has joined #lisp 01:40:05 sambio [~sambio@unaffiliated/sambio] has joined #lisp 01:40:09 Amadiro [jonathri@dalvik.ping.uio.no] has joined #lisp 01:41:45 normanrichards [~normanric@70.114.215.220] has joined #lisp 01:44:43 -!- pavelpenev [~quassel@85-130-11-8.2073813645.shumen.cablebg.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:47:04 gendl_ [~dcooper8@c-98-250-10-50.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:47:36 please do not ever consider things like ql:which, i am using linux more than a year now and can't remember such names and what they do. where-is-system is an alien technology comparing to that :) 01:49:13 -!- banjara [~Adium@unaffiliated/banjara] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:49:30 banjara [~Adium@unaffiliated/banjara] has joined #lisp 01:50:15 setmeaway [setmeaway3@118.45.149.119] has joined #lisp 01:54:23 -!- banjara [~Adium@unaffiliated/banjara] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:54:36 banjara [~Adium@unaffiliated/banjara] has joined #lisp 01:58:16 -!- spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit 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[~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 04:50:47 dented42 [~dented42@opengroove.org] has joined #lisp 04:51:50 kdas_ [~kdas@114.143.160.157] has joined #lisp 04:54:00 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 04:57:32 -!- LiamH [~none@pool-74-96-4-63.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:59:16 asvil [~user@91.151.182.61] has joined #lisp 04:59:39 -!- kdas_ is now known as kushal 04:59:49 -!- kushal [~kdas@114.143.160.157] has quit [Changing host] 04:59:49 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 05:00:41 I have a hunchentoot:redirect on my server (hunchentoot server behind nginx) that directs away from my server, but the redirect gets caught by nginx again prepending the proxy_pass to the redirect url... 05:00:52 anybody got any ideas what I am mucking up 05:02:57 -!- pyacks [~yacks@180.151.36.168] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:09:57 -!- Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 05:10:07 -!- Kruppe [~user@CPE602ad0938e9a-CM602ad0938e97.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:10:25 -!- dented42 [~dented42@opengroove.org] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 05:13:52 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@freiksenet.com] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.2] 05:14:20 freiksenet [~freiksene@freiksenet.com] has joined #lisp 05:17:09 Harag: without looking at the actual requests, it is rather hard to guess 05:17:55 Harag: can you get more verbose logging from nginx? 05:17:59 Harag: did you set hunchentoot:*header-stream* and look at the actual headers exchanged? 05:18:21 it's pretty hard debugging without seeing what's actually happening :) 05:19:22 guaqua: regarding closure-html, are you saying that closure-html:parse does not return dom nodes for elements that are not in the html4 dtd? 05:20:11 Thanx I will try to dig a bit deeper, I was just surprised that the redirect went back to nginx at all but then again I don't know what the actual mechanics of a redirect are. 05:20:42 Harag: your next step is to learn something about that. :) 05:21:18 H4ns: i think that was the case, since i couldn't find them from the dom. i might be wrong on that, though. i'm not that versed on either xpath-dom or the inner workings of xml, dtds, schemas and whatnot (and actually would prefer not to be, either...) 05:21:59 rephrased: would be interested in xpath, not xml in general :) 05:22:47 guaqua: the bad news is that xpath is defined within xml 05:23:17 guaqua: but anyway, do you have an example url which i could use for some experiments? 05:23:22 -!- Henesy [~h3n3sy@adsl-75-23-66-164.dsl.peoril.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:24:33 -!- axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-88-224.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:24:53 guaqua: i have been wanting the same for a while but never actually implemented it, and i think it would be useful to be able to parse html into namespace-less xml 05:25:30 this was the article (silly news article) i was trying to extract the main text parts from: http://yle.fi/uutiset/manuela_bosco_naki_enkeleita_aamu-tvn_studiossa/6449633 05:26:02 axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-88-224.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 05:26:33 pyacks [~yacks@180.151.36.168] has joined #lisp 05:26:54 i couldn't seem to match the article tag. and my hypothesis for the reason for that is that it only matches namespaced stuff 05:27:19 dented42 [~dented42@opengroove.org] has joined #lisp 05:28:16 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-161-201.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 05:28:29 fmeyer [~fmeyer@186.220.32.235] has joined #lisp 05:30:01 setting host to "" in the redirect sorts out the problem 05:30:10 leoncamel [~leoncamel@124.126.215.190] has joined #lisp 05:30:34 -!- p_nathan [~Adium@76.178.163.213] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:30:48 sdemarre [~serge@143.184-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 05:32:48 guaqua: it looks to me as if closure-html only parses the valid part of the document and skips unknown tags altogether. this sucks. 05:33:12 guaqua: so i concur with your analysis for now, closure-html is worthless for your purpose. 05:33:47 okay. thanks for the effort! 05:33:57 -!- dented42 [~dented42@opengroove.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 05:35:13 one option would probably be to fix closure-html to work without any dtd's 05:35:14 p_nathan [~Adium@76.178.163.213] has joined #lisp 05:35:51 prxq [~mommer@mnhm-4d0112b9.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 05:35:55 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@186.220.32.235] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 05:36:06 guaqua: i'm reluctant to call that an option without having looked at the actual code. 05:36:37 the namespace support there, in general, seemed to be quite verbose. it seems fitting for a library from the last century. 05:36:54 guaqua: closure-html, like cxml, has its heritage in the ancient closure browser which is a rather convoluted thing. 05:37:15 that's what i was thinking too 05:37:34 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:37:35 guaqua: i'm not in line with calling proper namespace support is from the last century. if you want json, use json. 05:38:41 namespaces within html are a rare thing. within xml they make more sense 05:38:46 -!- gko` [~gko@42-74-95-233.dynamic-ip.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:39:17 right, but you're trying to use xml tools, and there, proper namespace support is simply required. 05:39:27 i agree that all this sucks :) 05:39:51 *H4ns* does most of its web work in javascript nowadays. 05:39:55 his 05:39:59 what is the goal here? sorry, joined a few minutes ago but sounds interesting 05:40:32 axion: crawl html using common lisp and (something like) xpath 05:40:51 dented42 [~dented42@opengroove.org] has joined #lisp 05:40:56 guaqua: ah, and you've probably not experienced what "it is slow" means in the context of plexippus-xpath 05:40:57 that lead me to think, would a more lightweight scheme work. something like reimplementing parts of closure-html to not deal with namespaces and then coming up with an xpath implementation (or some other thing supporting path queries) that doesn't suck with non-namespaced documents? 05:41:15 aha 05:41:43 guaqua: did you look at cl-libxml2? that did a fine job for me when i used it, and i think libxml2 can parse html, too 05:41:46 this less anal approach to path queries could then be used for anything semistructured, not just html 05:41:59 -!- sdemarre [~serge@143.184-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:42:08 -!- antonv_ [5d7d2a66@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.42.102] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:42:30 well, i'd parse into an stp dom and use xpath as first iteration, before trying to invent my own path syntax scheme. 05:42:32 no, didn't take a look at it. i'll have to try using it, too 05:43:06 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 05:44:36 grandiose ideas :) i did my bachelor's thesis on query languages for semistructured data. mainly on lorel and unql. these two languages predate xpath. would just be nice to (re-)implement lorel. it's a lot nicer than xpath :) 05:45:07 -!- karupanerura [~freenode@www5325uf.sakura.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 05:45:07 -!- cibs [~cibs@118-163-170-73.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 05:45:25 -!- ahoops [~ahoops__@121.96.14.223] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 05:45:47 i'd surely be glad if i could properly crawl the web from lisp 05:46:13 ahoops [~ahoops__@121.96.14.223] has joined #lisp 05:46:15 karupanerura [~freenode@49.212.131.99] has joined #lisp 05:47:02 cibs [~cibs@118.163.170.73] has joined #lisp 05:48:54 kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 05:53:43 ehu [~ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 05:55:32 DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@1.149.125.207] has joined #lisp 06:01:17 H4ns: Why can't you? 06:02:32 p_nathan: let me qualify: crawl the web from lisp using xpath 06:03:03 Ah okay. :) 06:03:09 p_nathan: but maybe you have a good suggestion what would be a good alternative approach? 06:04:09 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-70.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:04:11 I'm not a dom expert - my reckoning is that Beautiful Soup has the right kind of philosophy- they strive just to be able to read pages, unconcerned with correctness 06:04:34 p_nathan: beautiful soup is a lisp library? 06:04:38 Nah. 06:04:45 q.e.d. 06:04:52 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-70.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 06:05:03 mrSpec [~Spec@87-207-172-93.dynamic.chello.pl] has joined #lisp 06:05:03 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@87-207-172-93.dynamic.chello.pl] has quit [Changing host] 06:05:04 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 06:05:12 Python, as it so happens. It's usually the one recommended for scraping. But the *approach* is, afaik, the right one for web pages 06:05:12 chtml does something a bit similar, iirc 06:05:25 that is, it's permissive 06:05:44 p_l: yeah, it seemingly ignores anything that is not valid. 06:05:51 -!- erikc [~erikc@CPE00222d53fe78-CM00222d53fe75.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Quit: erikc] 06:05:56 and you can use cxml-stp with it, which IMHO beats a lot of other APIs 06:06:22 H4ns: on my "SOMEDAY/MAYBE" todo there's "add the newfangled tags to chtml" 06:06:24 p_l: it ignores anything that is not valid by not parsing it. 06:06:51 unwritten code has no bugs and executes at the speed of mouth :) 06:06:57 :D 06:07:11 unwritten? 06:07:46 ah, it was already discussed, some issues with namespaces... 06:07:48 teggi [~teggi@123.21.161.34] has joined #lisp 06:08:16 btw - for walking the tree from chtml/cxml, consider cxml-stp. I found it really, really nice 06:08:29 though maybe not as nice as using DSLs like CSS selectors 06:09:30 -!- Bike [~Glossina@174-25-35-243.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 06:10:37 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:15:04 -!- KDr2 [~KDr2@111.161.70.16] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 06:15:45 KDr2 [~KDr2@111.161.70.16] has joined #lisp 06:15:53 -!- ehu [~ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:17:18 ellusioner [ellusioner@c-951ee755.05-23-6c6b7013.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 06:17:51 hey 06:19:59 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@1.149.125.207] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 06:20:46 Dalek_Baldwin [~Adium@71-84-34-33.dhcp.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has joined #lisp 06:21:03 kanru` [~kanru@220-136-0-54.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 06:23:55 mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.96.86] has joined #lisp 06:24:09 -!- breakds [~breakds@ppp-70-226-173-79.dsl.mdsnwi.ameritech.net] has 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[~jtza8@105-236-101-217.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 07:58:56 In my library, I'm wrapping a function using CFFI. This function accepts a filename. Now, since I would like to allow this wrapped function t accept any pathname specifier I need to convert an X into a valid Unix path. My first though was this: (NAMESTRING (MERGE-PATHNAMES X)) 07:59:13 It woks for the most part, except that it doesn't expand ~\ 07:59:21 I mean ~ 07:59:37 Is there a proper solution for this? 07:59:52 clhs truename 07:59:53 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_tn.htm 08:00:36 -!- gko` [~user@42-74-95-233.dynamic-ip.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:00:55 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-70.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 08:02:20 woah. Thanks! 08:02:26 Exactly what I was looking for. 08:02:30 doesn't work for non-existent files 08:02:35 also resolves symlinks 08:05:27 -!- dnolen [~user@212.23.236.122] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:05:30 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-70.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:06:11 jerryzhou [~gururui@119.55.96.174] has joined #lisp 08:10:58 -!- sw2wolf [~czsq888@171.214.175.209] has left #lisp 08:11:53 -!- banjara [~Adium@unaffiliated/banjara] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 08:12:08 H4ns: therep 08:14:44 H4ns: figured it out myself 08:15:39 -!- Dalek_Baldwin [~Adium@71-84-34-33.dhcp.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 08:16:16 quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 08:17:28 scoofy [~scoofy@catv-89-135-71-167.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 08:21:39 przl [~przlrkt@46.231.183.162] has joined #lisp 08:23:44 -!- Harag [~Thunderbi@41-135-10-198.dsl.mweb.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 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[Changing host] 08:51:28 _veer [~veer@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 08:51:30 -!- _veer [~veer@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 08:51:53 _veer [~veer@pool-108-33-26-144.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 08:51:53 -!- _veer [~veer@pool-108-33-26-144.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 08:51:53 _veer [~veer@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 08:51:54 -!- _veer [~veer@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 08:52:40 does anyone know of any working being done on connecting R and lisp 08:52:46 Kvaks [~kvaks@116.157.189.109.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 08:53:33 _veer [~veer@pool-108-33-26-144.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 08:53:33 -!- _veer [~veer@pool-108-33-26-144.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 08:53:33 _veer [~veer@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 08:53:35 -!- _veer [~veer@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Max SendQ 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08:54:48 -!- _veer [~veer@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [K-Lined] 08:58:35 -!- PuercoPop [~user@190.41.173.174] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:59:38 -!- przl [~przlrkt@46.231.183.162] has quit [Quit: leaving] 08:59:48 przl [~przlrkt@46.231.183.162] has joined #lisp 09:01:07 minion: rcl? 09:01:07 rcl: No definition was found in the first 5 lines of http://www.cliki.net/rcl 09:04:41 wow...this is badass 09:04:56 i can make anaphoric macros to have Perl-like pronouns 09:05:07 like $_ 09:05:16 yes, there's no limit in how ugly you can make your code look in CL 09:05:33 pshhh...i like pronouns 09:06:24 but it also shows how Lisp is an excelent langauge to build an interpreter :) 09:06:46 I don't usually like reading code into which bindings are introduced without an explicit mechanism. 09:06:46 it doesn't, really 09:07:31 -!- quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:07:31 stassats: i think it does?....you can use macrolets and anaphoric macros to change contexts 09:07:40 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f756f81.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 09:08:19 that's not "building an interpreter" 09:08:38 stassats: it is when you use those as you are traversing a parse tree 09:09:12 stassats: this is all hypothetical...but i plan to play with it as i learn more Lisp :) 09:10:28 stassats: and the natural variable shadowing of unhygenic macros properly nests things like pronouns by it's very nature 09:11:29 its* 09:12:21 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-101-79.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:12:41 on [~user@147.red-80-28-65.adsl.dynamic.ccgg.telefonica.net] has joined #lisp 09:12:47 (setf (documentation 'foo 'function) "doc") then, (defun foo () 10), what should be (documentation 'foo 'function)? 09:13:02 -!- on is now known as Guest97261 09:14:00 i'm guessing it is blank?...honestly I am not knowledgable to answer with any confidence 09:14:10 knowledgable enough* 09:14:12 protist: and i'm not asking you 09:14:49 pavelpenev [~quassel@85-130-11-8.2073813645.shumen.cablebg.net] has joined #lisp 09:15:52 since no two implementations agree on what to do, it's not really relevant what SBCL should do, so i'll opt out for what makes sense (and is not particularly hard to implement) 09:16:12 currently, that results in (list (documentation 'foo 'function) (documentation #'foo 'function)) => ("doc" NIL) 09:16:24 i would think that it should be ("doc" "doc") 09:16:27 antgreen [~green@dsl-173-206-64-86.tor.primus.ca] has joined #lisp 09:17:31 though, (defun foo () 10), (setf (documentation 'foo 'function) "foo"), (defun foo () 10), results in (NIL NIL) 09:20:10 Are there any implementation where defun without a docstring wouldn't reset the documentation of the function? 09:20:32 -!- arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-nwieolbuseyuovok] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:20:58 akovalenko [~user@77.51.63.76] has joined #lisp 09:21:38 kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-101-79.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 09:21:40 bitonic [~user@dyn1220-246.wlan.ic.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 09:22:12 ABCL doesn't reset documentation attached to the symbol 09:22:12 -!- antgreen [~green@dsl-173-206-64-86.tor.primus.ca] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:23:31 in ABCL (defun foo () "f" 10) (documentation #'foo 'function) => NIL 09:23:49 (documentation 'foo 'function) is "f" 09:24:13 stassats: is that correct behaviour? 09:24:25 technically, yes 09:24:49 "An implementation is permitted to discard documentation strings at any time for implementation-defined reasons" 09:27:37 But is (not (equal (documentation 'foo 'function) (documentation #'foo 'function))) permissible? 09:27:40 loke: But we (ABCL) probably aren't doing this out of malice, just that nobody has fixed things to behave in the more common case. 09:27:44 or (not (equal (documentation 'foo 'function) (documentation #'foo 't)))? 09:31:10 ck_ [~ck@dslb-088-069-115-231.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 09:37:48 davazp [~user@178.167.128.220.threembb.ie] has joined #lisp 09:37:50 easye: That's fine. I was curious because this was new to me. (I have some interest in the subject, as I do some stuff with this in Docbrowser) 09:38:44 -!- s0ber [~s0ber@36-229-162-58.dynamic-ip.hinet.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:39:04 loke: Cool. Just acknowledging that I have seem some inconsistent stuff wrt. ABCL and doctrings that we (the "developers") do not consider optimal. 09:40:50 s0ber [~s0ber@36-229-167-146.dynamic-ip.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 09:43:12 On a related note, I wish there was a standard for cross-referencing documentation. Something similar to what Javadoc does. Being able to do something like referring to {@link bordaux-threads:make-thread} in a docstring would be fantastic, and tools like Slime or docbrowser would be able to rpovide links and popup documentation. 09:43:47 and would be terrible if you're not using such tools 09:44:13 Well, the syntax could be less unweildy if you like... 09:44:46 emacs odes `bordaux-threads:make-thread' 09:47:00 loke: I'm not convinced that docstrings are a good idea, myself. 09:48:25 nalaginrut [~nalaginru@183.13.170.99] has joined #lisp 09:49:41 Perhaps the DOCUMENTATION generic function might be a better starting point? 09:52:24 -!- yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.168] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:54:16 Zhivago: Like (DOCUMENTATION 'foo 'xref)? 09:55:58 That might work nicely for extraction. 09:56:22 Although, I guess you probably want some more symbolic and less stringy infrastructure underneath that. 09:56:28 Zhivago: Interesting. Would you be suggesting some kind of structured data being returned from there? 09:56:37 No. That's required to be a string. 09:56:55 But you could have a structured database accessed by that call and then knitted into a string for human consumption. 09:57:12 I seem to recall an xref implementation or two for CL or at least SBCL. 09:57:37 Hmm 09:57:55 Sounds pretty cool, but it needs to be a lot better than any alternatives for people use it. 09:58:19 And just as easy 10:05:53 nilsi [~nilsi@c83-253-22-138.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 10:05:57 -!- bitonic [~user@dyn1220-246.wlan.ic.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 10:06:07 -!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has quit [Quit: http://www.cyphase.com/] 10:06:37 cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has joined #lisp 10:07:19 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-70.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 10:11:47 -!- kanru` [~kanru@118-163-10-190.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:13:43 Xach: (setf (documentation nil 'function) "doc") no longer signals an error 10:15:21 Well, clearly a CDR documentation is in order. 10:15:53 -!- KDr2 [~KDr2@111.161.70.16] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:16:03 stassats`: why not? Since one cannot (defun cl:nil ), one should not be able to (setf (documentation 'cl:nil 'function) "doc") either. 10:17:52 ogamita: clhs doesn't say that 10:18:09 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ho1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 10:19:12 bitonic [~user@dyn1220-246.wlan.ic.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 10:19:44 stassats`: granted, but it would seem logical. At least a good strong style warning would be in order. 10:20:39 But anyways, the specifications of DOCUMENTATION should be reviewed in a CDR for modern needs and uses. 10:20:53 yes, i made it into a style warning, but for NIL only 10:20:56 STYLE-WARNING: Ignoring documentation of type FUNCTION for NIL. 10:21:21 except for TYPE 10:21:44 mc40_ [~mc@host86-148-31-142.range86-148.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 10:21:55 pinupgeek [~pinupgeek@unaffiliated/pinupgeek] has joined #lisp 10:22:35 SBCL ignore more things, like documentation for STRUCTURE, which is not defined 10:22:40 but that's for some other time 10:23:12 angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has joined #lisp 10:25:53 DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@101.175.65.1] has joined #lisp 10:26:10 -!- nilsi [~nilsi@c83-253-22-138.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:26:12 -!- przl [~przlrkt@46.231.183.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:26:27 Thra11 [~thrall@146.90.138.96] has joined #lisp 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[~thomas@vpn-ho1.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:55:18 -!- nightfly [~sage@sagenite.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:55:38 nightfly [~sage@sagenite.net] has joined #lisp 12:56:25 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 12:57:06 -!- j_king [~jking@mortar.walled.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:57:34 j_king [~jking@mortar.walled.net] has joined #lisp 12:57:56 -!- przl [~przlrkt@46.231.183.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:59:10 cajetanus [~cajetanus@aefi167.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 13:00:00 -!- cades [~mac@60.245.65.197] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 13:00:44 -!- pegu [~user@cF469BF51.dhcp.as2116.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:01:48 Btw paste.lisp.org is not working. Just to let you know. 13:02:03 we do know 13:02:10 przl [~przlrkt@46.231.183.162] has joined #lisp 13:04:31 drmeister [~drmeister@166.137.84.153] has joined #lisp 13:05:08 foreignFunction [~niksaak@94.27.88.184] has joined #lisp 13:10:32 Indecipherable [~Indeciphe@41.23.112.181] has joined #lisp 13:10:33 -!- dnolen [~user@212.23.236.122] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:13:09 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@166.137.84.153] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:13:17 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-161-72.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 13:17:18 -!- antgreen [~green@199.108.69.165] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:20:38 Raindrop [Raindrop@5ED4FD4F.cm-7-5d.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #lisp 13:20:49 -!- dRbiG [drbig@178.217.184.41] has left #lisp 13:21:10 -!- Raindrop [Raindrop@5ED4FD4F.cm-7-5d.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has left #lisp 13:21:40 -!- yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.168] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:22:31 Fare [~fare@173-9-65-97-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 13:22:39 -!- hq1 is now known as peerst 13:26:18 -!- edgar-rft [~GOD@HSI-KBW-149-172-63-75.hsi13.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Quit: lifeform experiment terminated] 13:29:26 normanrichards [~normanric@70.114.215.220] has joined #lisp 13:30:26 -!- peerst is now known as hq1` 13:30:30 drmeister [~drmeister@wirelessNAT188.wireless.temple.edu] has joined #lisp 13:34:23 -!- cajetanus [~cajetanus@aefi167.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi] 13:36:18 dRbiG [drbig@178.217.184.41] has joined #lisp 13:37:37 mgile [~mgile@74-92-220-177-Colorado.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 13:37:52 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-iamllghplznwljub] has joined #lisp 13:37:53 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-iamllghplznwljub] has quit [Changing host] 13:37:53 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 13:39:33 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@70.114.215.220] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:40:56 paradoja [~paradoja@85.Red-213-4-35.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 13:46:27 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@wirelessNAT188.wireless.temple.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:47:16 -!- pavelpenev [~quassel@194.141.47.12] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:48:02 yacks [~py@180.151.36.168] has joined #lisp 13:48:16 ahungry [~null@66.184.106.97] has joined #lisp 13:49:34 drmeister [~drmeister@wirelessNAT188.wireless.temple.edu] has joined #lisp 13:50:33 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:53:21 -!- joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@c-98-208-37-38.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:57:32 -!- gendl [~gendl@c-98-250-10-50.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:57:32 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:59:01 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@92.47.216.124] has joined #lisp 13:59:01 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@92.47.216.124] has quit [Changing host] 13:59:01 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 14:03:37 -!- asvil [~user@91.151.182.61] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:05:57 casion [~AdmiralBu@pool-71-99-141-240.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:06:20 -!- aajmakin [aajmakin@kosh.org.aalto.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:07:42 -!- ogamita changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language New: common-lisp.net is down, including paste.lisp.org, etc. CFFI 0.11.1, Hunchentoot 1.2.17, SBCL 1.1.6, DRAKMA-1.3.1, CHUNGA-1.1.5, Babel 0.4.0, trivial-garbage 0.20 14:08:09 cl.net is not fully down, the pages are up 14:08:17 breakds [~breakds@ppp-70-226-173-79.dsl.mdsnwi.ameritech.net] has joined #lisp 14:08:50 TitanOfOld|work [~user@gentoo/developer/TitanOfOld] has joined #lisp 14:10:09 -!- TitanOfOld|work [~user@gentoo/developer/TitanOfOld] has left #lisp 14:11:25 pavelpenev [~quassel@85-130-11-8.2073813645.shumen.cablebg.net] has joined #lisp 14:11:59 ignas [~ignas@office.pov.lt] has joined #lisp 14:13:02 nilsi [~nilsi@c83-253-22-138.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 14:13:18 natechan [~natechan@50-192-61-45-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 14:14:46 adelgado [~TomSawyer@65.23.61.98.nw.nuvox.net] has joined #lisp 14:15:47 Munchor [~david@a89-153-167-90.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 14:16:04 Are there GTK3 bindings for Lisp? I can only find (via search engines) GTK2 bindings. 14:17:30 zophy [ceb02321@gateway/web/freenode/ip.206.176.35.33] has joined #lisp 14:20:23 http://www.crategus.com/books/cl-gtk/gtk-tutorial_2.html 14:20:54 Munchor: you should try to use google. it's useful :) 14:21:05 I did, but I failed to find GTK 3 14:21:07 thanks fe[nl]ix 14:21:22 -!- Munchor [~david@a89-153-167-90.cpe.netcabo.pt] has left #lisp 14:21:43 -!- pavelpenev [~quassel@85-130-11-8.2073813645.shumen.cablebg.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:23:30 -!- setmeaway [setmeaway3@118.45.149.119] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:27:39 i feel like comments in lisp code are really distracting 14:28:00 Get over it. 14:28:02 at least when on a line by themselves at the same indentation 14:28:30 Xach: what do you think of comments at the end of a line?...i think those are more legible 14:29:17 protist: I haven't seen many of them in the wild in code written after 2000 14:29:32 Xach: ah 14:29:47 protist: many programmers like to keep their source code narrow, which prevents them from putting comments at the end of source lines. 14:30:03 H4ns: that helps make sense of it :) 14:30:21 protist: also, end-of-line comments in lisp suck when they're at the end of a line with multiple closing parens 14:30:55 protist: as a general rule, a comment that is so unimportant that it distracts you should not be there in the first place. 14:30:56 -!- arrdem [~user@resnet-45-187.dorm.utexas.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:31:38 -!- Fare [~fare@173-9-65-97-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 14:31:40 H4ns: i don't like the comments here: http://www.crategus.com/books/cl-gtk/gtk-tutorial_2.html 14:31:42 fisxoj [~fisxoj@c-24-12-190-29.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:31:45 -!- dtw [~dtw@pdpc/supporter/active/dtw] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 14:31:57 H4ns: in (defun example-simple-window 14:31:57 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@wirelessNAT188.wireless.temple.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:32:11 they're useless 14:32:16 H4ns: agreed 14:33:30 -!- hq1` is now known as hq1 14:35:30 pavelpenev [~quassel@85-130-11-8.2073813645.shumen.cablebg.net] has joined #lisp 14:35:33 drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has joined #lisp 14:36:09 -!- bhyde [~bhyde@c-24-61-81-138.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: bhyde] 14:36:45 k0001 [~k0001@host176.186-125-106.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 14:38:50 Juanito [~jreynoso@177.224.212.179] has joined #lisp 14:40:26 -!- Posterdati [~antani@host166-213-dynamic.11-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:40:31 normanrichards [~normanric@63.98.50.138] has joined #lisp 14:41:06 is gtk the prefered gui tool? 14:41:18 no 14:41:23 there is no preferred tool 14:41:34 commonqt seems to have some traction. 14:41:42 what would you, personally, use? 14:41:49 i personally use commonqt 14:41:53 I'd use commonqt 14:41:57 I wouldn't write a GUI 14:42:01 thank you both :) 14:42:11 fe[nl]ix: i wouldn't normally...but i would like to know how 14:42:12 and there is ltk for the simplish things 14:42:30 -!- prxq_ is now known as prxq 14:42:44 Fade: comonqt stinks too.... 14:42:54 wbooze: does it? 14:43:04 Fade: you need a lib which is not installed everywhere, and getting it and compiling it etc. not trivial..... 14:43:27 wbooze: now _that's_ a compelling reason to say it stinks 14:43:30 Fade: you need smoke too, which means smokeqt..... 14:44:03 that's just a technicality 14:44:16 you can build all the libs and distribute them with your application 14:44:19 didn't find a smokeqt which worked.....and couldn't compile one in slack..... 14:44:19 when I was playing with it, it wasn't exactly a plug in and write the code scenario, but it wasn't difficult enough that it triggered sincere annoyance in me. 14:44:39 all gui toolkits suck one way or another. It's unfair to blame the bindings 14:44:51 I've had few problems on debian, ubuntu, and gentoo systems. 14:45:08 just once i did succeed but then i had already compiled in half of kde and qt again..... 14:45:13 lol 14:46:38 I'd expect to need all of qt 14:47:19 -!- yacks [~py@180.151.36.168] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:47:29 Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 14:47:46 Posterdati [~antani@host166-213-dynamic.11-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 14:49:02 CAPI is the preferred tool for a lot of people. 14:51:30 ltk is looking pretty straightforward 14:51:37 likewise, if you're on OS X, the objectiveC bindings for quartz in CCL are apparently very good. 14:52:59 Hurrah for html5. 14:53:24 hurrah for javascript! 14:54:46 patrickwonders [~patrickwo@user-38q42ns.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 14:55:06 Hurrah for "does not fit and causes cognitive dissonance!" 14:55:21 and pain 14:55:30 (incf p_l) 14:55:42 Well, it avoids all of this dark-age bothering about with bindings and so on. 14:55:53 (incf Zhivago) 14:56:09 H4ns: <3 JS. It sounds like you've been having fun with angular, too 14:56:34 I'd think really carefully before not using html5 for a UI. 14:56:52 and shifts it to bothering about differences of browsers 14:57:08 not that much of a problem with modern browsers. 14:57:19 Just don't support IE. 14:57:25 Zhivago: Only if I am doing what will be essentially an external service anyway. For "local" apps... nope 14:57:26 and there's plenty of tools to iron out the cross-browser differences these days -- even IE. 14:57:28 -!- Kruppe [~user@CPE602ad0938e9a-CM602ad0938e97.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:57:40 the box model bug isn't an issue these days 14:57:40 sykopomp: angular _looks_ awesome enough to make me want to go through the pain of learning it. 14:57:50 p_l: Well, that's planning for obsolescene, I guess. 14:57:59 H4ns: I really dislike the design. I don't think *any* javascript should be in a document. 14:58:28 arrdem [~user@resnet-45-187.dorm.utexas.edu] has joined #lisp 14:58:34 sykopomp: i'm succumbing to a world of common sense. 14:58:34 H4ns: I've been using backbone + a few other tools at work. The UI is 2kloc+ of javascript with some fairly involved control flow in some places. It's been wonderful. 14:58:36 Zhivago: my experience with "let's use HTML5 for local UI" is usually "it takes a lot of luck to not suck dead squirrels through a straw" 14:58:56 p_l: what is a local app 14:59:11 sykopomp: something that runs *locally*, not behind a webserver 14:59:16 One that you can't use remotely, presumably. 14:59:19 -!- KDr2 [~KDr2@114.243.239.56] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:59:19 people still do that? 14:59:23 or without a network connection. 14:59:24 how unfortunate 14:59:26 sykopomp: yes. 14:59:38 Well, lisp machines worked like that. 15:00:03 when can i run photoshop in my browser? 15:00:21 funny thing, quite often I expend less resources on equivalent local application than running a web app 15:00:27 stassats`: are you actually trying to say "it can't be done"? 15:00:31 stassats`: As soon as they decide to actually compile it to llvm bytecode. 15:00:33 is there a VNC client that serialises display to html5? 15:00:43 if it were open source, you probably already could 15:00:44 Fade: there's a GTK backend 15:00:56 Fade: and CLIM was actually first there 15:00:57 _d3f [~gnu@nl2.ovpn.to] has joined #lisp 15:00:59 stassats`: run fabrice bellards x86 emulator, boot linux, fire up wine, and run photoshop. 15:01:20 zorkmoid: "right" 15:01:27 You might be able to compile gimp for the browser already. 15:01:35 qt runs on the browser :) 15:02:19 *Fade* chuckles 15:02:43 btw, just getting the http headers, on a supposedly modern network, can have latency of several seconds 15:03:07 I need to look into what sort of capabilities fx/chrome have for packaging up webapps, these days. 15:03:20 I know there's xulrunner, but I think there's actual html5 stuff these days. 15:03:28 sykopomp: incompatible ones that work, and compatible one that is rather shitty 15:03:40 needing a webserver and a web-browser is a heavy runtime dependency. 15:04:03 wat? 15:04:12 Fade: especially when HTML5 devs' favourites tend to eat gigabytes of ram 15:04:28 hans: Well, some people don't use the internet. 15:04:33 welcome to #lisp. 15:05:05 H4ns: SBCL tends to be a non-noticeable drop compared to running a single page in Chrome, yes 15:05:33 I've seen single pages take 300-400 MB in Chrome 15:05:40 it's mind-boggling 15:05:41 that is ... crazy 15:05:48 https://areweslimyet.com/ 15:05:51 fe[nl]ix: that's modern 15:06:07 right. it is much better to use all the ram as buffer cache for all the files that have been opened since boot time. 15:06:12 m| 15:06:32 H4ns: which Chrome will need too 15:06:32 but it's a good excuse to upgrade my notebook to 32GB of RAM :) 15:06:33 sykopomp: i thought it was "are we slimy yet" comparing different IDEs to slime 15:07:22 Firefox fortunately uses much less resources than Chrome, but isn't the HTML5 darling 15:07:25 let's pretend that there's one solution to all the problems 15:07:31 or at least notanymore 15:07:40 and all others are inadequate 15:07:43 what do i need? : https://ideone.com/35xpEy 15:07:47 p_l: are you kidding? Firefox is pushing ahead more than chrome is. 15:07:47 stassats`: yes please. and it is common lisp. 15:07:52 back to peace 15:08:03 chrome is still stuck with ancient es5. You can actually already use a lot of es6 features in fx, natively. 15:08:11 protist: you don't have tk installed 15:08:27 protist: TCL/TK. 15:08:27 stassats`: ah...i just installed tcl...i suppose i need tk as well? 15:08:28 fx is also as fast as chrome these days :) 15:08:38 daniel_- [~daniel_-@unaffiliated/daniel--/x-1801510] has joined #lisp 15:08:47 sykopomp: Firefox can easily do >200 tabs without breaking 1.5GiB of memory. Chrome sometimes gets that with 10 tabs 15:09:08 must be becasue chrome is written in go j/k 15:09:18 p_l: they both start devouring RAM as time goes on, though. 15:09:40 if i had a dime each time somebody was comparing how much their browser eats memory 15:09:40 akovalen` [~user@95.72.100.87] has joined #lisp 15:09:42 I've got 4 tabs in fx/20.0, and it's at 490M of RES 15:09:49 sykopomp: not in my experience, not since 3.0/3.1 which required some aggressive optimizations, the need disappeared after 4.0 15:09:57 sykopomp: zorkmoid: it works now! thank you :D 15:10:19 sykopomp: fx got big "base" memory use, but it grows much slower than Chrome (which goes "omnomnomnom") 15:10:43 as for speed - I'm not saying it's slow, just that it's not the HTML5 darling ;) 15:11:06 p_l: I'm telling you that fx is pulling ahead in this, specially in the past few months. 15:11:18 is this #lisp? i mean, are we not the lisp guys who always told the c dudes to bugger off with their low memory usage claims? 15:11:33 -!- akovalenko [~user@77.51.63.76] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:11:36 closure uses less memory 15:11:39 -!- natechan [~natechan@50-192-61-45-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]] 15:11:40 oh my, what have I done ? 15:12:04 H4ns: I tend to complain about how the memory is utilized. in my experience, SBCL is software for microcontrollers when compared with Chrome 15:12:35 cades [~mac@host-61-70-191-50.static.kbtelecom.net] has joined #lisp 15:12:39 let's make closure support HTML5, so that we can write GUIs in it 15:13:04 Hi all. I am new to lisp. can someone tell me what data type 'blue is? (setq buffer-name 'blue) 15:13:07 p_l: complaint noted. back to usual business now 15:13:11 perhaps a canvas lib that wraps webkit. :) 15:13:13 daniel_-: it's a symbol 15:13:35 p_l: but buffer-name is also a symbol right? 15:13:43 stassats`: wasn't somebody working on an html backend for mcclim ? 15:13:48 buffer-name is a variable 15:14:12 daniel_-: the difference is that ' "quotes" the symbol, so instead of referencing whatever the symbol is bound to, you pass the symbol unevaluated (as itself) 15:14:35 natechan [~natechan@50-192-61-45-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 15:14:52 fe[nl]ix: there was a HTML backend for CLIM back in mid-90s, afaik 15:15:04 and variables are named by symbols, but that's irrelevant, unless you're writing macros or interpreters 15:15:22 thx p_l and stassats` 15:15:28 wow ltk is so easy :D 15:15:44 you can make simple guis from the REPL 15:15:49 http://developer.chrome.com/trunk/apps/about_apps.html <-- 15:16:51 I think mozilla is working on something similar, but it's fxos-only. 15:17:04 sykopomp: both are also very, very incompatible with each other, afaik 15:17:09 protist: you can make anything on the repl 15:17:20 yacks [~py@180.151.36.168] has joined #lisp 15:17:23 zorkmoid: this seems to be true 15:17:31 sykopomp: though Chrome could be used to host ECL-based applications, I think 15:17:31 p_l: the incompatibility would be almost entirely in the packaging/organization part of the system. 15:17:35 zorkmoid: it is incredible the amount of control you have from there 15:17:35 not in the application itself. 15:17:51 sykopomp: also in APIs and supported code technology 15:17:55 or nacl in crome to host sbcl apps 15:18:03 p_l: not that much. Most of it is html5 at this pointn. 15:18:05 even vibrating 15:18:05 protist: the same amount as you have from a file or whatever ... nothing special when you get used to it 15:18:11 you want vibration, don't you? 15:18:27 sykopomp: the APIs are different, and Chrome got a huge chunk of stuff done as NaCL 15:18:59 p_l: that's news to me. 15:19:06 I thought it was just html5 :) 15:19:17 Fare [~fare@173-9-99-25-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 15:19:20 not everything, but a lot of the impressive stuff is NaCL 15:19:34 NaCL isn't necessary. 15:19:49 -!- xificurC [xificurC@nat/ibm/x-muqmjlaxepljoulk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:19:50 jimmy [~bonsai@69.85.36.234] has joined #lisp 15:19:54 btw does ECL survive emscripten? 15:19:59 probably 15:20:09 that'd be lovely 15:20:21 probably also not going to touch something that will explode the heap use, at least not with my limited resources :> 15:20:56 [22:16:52] I think mozilla is working on something similar, but it's fxos-only. 15:20:59 though I want to play with some of the memory-hogging stuff from V8 in lisp, except in less memory-hogging way 15:21:12 sykopomp: if you meant emscripten, that works fine in Chrome and Safari at least. 15:21:23 brucem: no, I mean packaged apps. 15:21:37 as in, single-binary deployment of native desktop applications. 15:21:41 which chrome already does. 15:21:47 sykopomp: okay. 15:21:53 not llvm-to-asmjs, which is what emscripten does 15:22:11 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 15:22:21 btw, my recent experience with Chrome used in embedded form as application container (not a Chrome web store app) was rather annoying 15:22:28 sykopomp: yeah, I work full time on emscripten. 15:22:32 had really weird dependencies 15:22:55 brucem: fantastic! Keep it up. :) 15:23:05 Brucio-92 [goldenligh@gateway/shell/devio.us/x-mlapbcrertrqajdv] has joined #lisp 15:23:19 antgreen [~green@199.106.164.141] has joined #lisp 15:23:31 brucem: it would be awesome to see ECL actually running on asmjs if you want another demo :P 15:23:32 -!- jimmy [~bonsai@69.85.36.234] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:23:38 sykopomp: I've had the (former) Harlequin GC partially working under emscripten. I've had parts of the Open Dylan runtime building with it. There's probably no reason that ECL couldn't be made to work with it unless it does something really obscene. 15:23:39 (or any lisp implementation, really) 15:24:54 -!- Fare [~fare@173-9-99-25-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 15:24:54 *p_l* meanwhile will work on getting enough time to work further on normal applications in lisp that don't need 500MBs of code and direct vram access to display a form ;> 15:24:58 brucem: why only parts ? 15:25:20 -!- Guest3373 is now known as hugod 15:25:40 ikki [~ikki@177.224.212.179] has joined #lisp 15:25:58 fe[nl]ix: Someone saw what I was doing and contracted me to fix issues impacting their product, so lack of time. 15:26:10 jimmy [~bonsai@69.85.36.234] has joined #lisp 15:26:35 zophy_ [goldenligh@gateway/shell/devio.us/x-ghhiedfnazunjdxn] has joined #lisp 15:26:36 -!- jimmy [~bonsai@69.85.36.234] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:28:24 davazp [~user@92.251.196.123.threembb.ie] has joined 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16:41:30 francogrex [~user@109.128.221.214] has joined #lisp 16:42:21 common-lisp.net is down, including paste.lisp.org: paste.lisp.org is displaying: Welcome to nginx! 16:42:21 16:42:41 yes 16:42:49 -!- Bike_ is now known as Bike 16:43:14 ASau [~user@46.115.125.121] has joined #lisp 16:44:22 it's insane 16:44:55 you will have to find a way to struggle through 16:45:25 i have a conspiracy theory: it's done that way so that people move away from cl.net and then it'll be more cheap to maintain it 16:45:27 pastebin: 16:46:09 I'm running into something that I don't understand with CASE and GLFW. This test passes: (EQ action GLFW:+PRESS+) but this does not: (CASE action (GLFW:+PRESS+ T)) 16:46:38 yes 16:46:40 case doesn't evaluate the values 16:46:53 the second is equivalent to (EQ action 'GLFW:+PRESS+) 16:46:54 That would explain it. I didn't realize that. 16:46:54 that checks if (eql action 'glfw:+press+) 16:47:03 Oi. 16:47:12 How do you feel when you see such an output? http://pastebin.com/cCr9nas8 16:47:34 (CASE action (#.GLFW:+PRESS+ T)) is one way 16:47:50 Yep that one worked, too, but it looked so ugly. 16:48:04 I'm working from a bad example, apparently.... 16:48:04 francogrex: i feel that someone is not telling me something 16:48:25 too much consing? regardless of the code 16:48:50 francogrex: can you ask a real question? 16:49:29 Forgetaboutit [~sammy@p4FFA7029.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:50:10 Thra11 [~thrall@103.19.113.87.dyn.plus.net] has joined #lisp 16:50:51 CatMtKing [~CatMtKing@ucrwpa1-fs-37-214.bulk.ucr.edu] has joined #lisp 16:51:25 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-79.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 16:51:38 ok here I put the whole code: http://pastebin.com/NRNkrrR3 16:52:03 I have a feeling consing could be reduced, I'm fishing for ideas on how 16:52:24 francogrex: it's good not to be wasteful, but it's really only "too much" if you run out of some resource you need, like time or memory or programmer brain cells. 16:53:18 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-79.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:53:25 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@200-150-182-201.static-corp.ajato.com.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:54:37 for now with the datasets I am using (up to 10 columns and about 60000 rows) resources are not yet limiting, but once the datasets become larger... they may become 16:55:23 (that above about 10 MB of data)... 16:56:34 that's some scary code 16:57:16 it's a translation from the R link 16:57:59 it looked a little bit nicer when I was using lists instead of vectors 16:58:15 -!- Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:59:16 but it works ok and fast "enough" I can post a sas database also if anyone wants to try 16:59:20 nkkarthik` [~nkkarthik@adsl-99-169-134-104.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 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host closed the connection] 17:40:57 -!- antonv [5d7d2a66@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.42.102] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 17:41:33 -!- sellout- is now known as sellout 17:42:51 -!- ck_ [~ck@dslb-088-069-115-231.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:43:34 ebobby [~fms@199.21.86.106] has joined #lisp 17:44:18 -!- arrdem [~user@resnet-45-187.dorm.utexas.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:45:01 -!- spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:46:08 sdemarre [~serge@91.180.126.217] has joined #lisp 17:48:21 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@freiksenet.com] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.2] 17:48:30 freiksenet [~freiksene@freiksenet.com] has joined #lisp 17:49:40 -!- puchacz_ [~puchacz@46-65-36-47.zone16.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 17:50:09 sambio [~sambio@190.57.227.109] has joined #lisp 17:50:10 -!- sambio [~sambio@190.57.227.109] has quit [Changing host] 17:50:10 sambio [~sambio@unaffiliated/sambio] has joined #lisp 17:51:02 -!- ISF [~ivan@189.61.222.251] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:51:21 Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 17:51:42 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-79.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 17:52:37 drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has joined #lisp 17:56:09 stassats`: do you have a library for reading non-comment ogg data, such as length of time? 17:57:14 axion: well, that's the only one i have 17:57:29 -!- francogrex [~user@109.128.221.214] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 17:57:33 maybe it can read length, i don't know 17:58:23 ok 17:59:36 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-79.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:59:55 -!- Guest31537 [~lukas@194.228.13.232] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:03:17 lukas_ [~lukas@194.228.13.232] has joined #lisp 18:03:40 -!- lukas_ is now known as Guest18359 18:04:07 -!- EvW [~Thunderbi@a82-92-190-215.adsl.xs4all.nl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:05:43 edgar-rft [~GOD@HSI-KBW-149-172-63-75.hsi13.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 18:05:47 EvW [~Thunderbi@a82-92-190-215.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 18:05:49 ogre-a-mite [527bf545@gateway/web/freenode/ip.82.123.245.69] has joined #lisp 18:06:56 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu1.unidsl.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:07:44 -!- Guest97261 [~user@147.red-80-28-65.adsl.dynamic.ccgg.telefonica.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:09:55 spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 18:10:45 -!- mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:10:57 yuri` [~user@201.75.85.87] has joined #lisp 18:11:03 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 18:11:18 -!- ogre-a-mite [527bf545@gateway/web/freenode/ip.82.123.245.69] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:11:35 shouldn't this code work to load setup.lisp? (load (merge-pathnames "quicklisp/setup.lisp" (make-pathname :directory `(:relative ,(posix-getenv "HOME"))))) 18:11:54 (it's a SBCL-only code for a script, don't judge me) 18:12:09 (merge-pathnames "quicklisp/setup.lisp" (user-homedir-pathname)) 18:12:25 -!- bhyde [~bhyde@c-98-229-178-108.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: bhyde] 18:12:27 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-79.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:12:45 ok, this is easier XD 18:12:47 -!- yuri` is now known as Denommus 18:14:01 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-79.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 18:15:12 -!- Ralt [Ralt@2a01:7e00::f03c:91ff:feae:6c69] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 18:15:48 puchacz [~puchacz@46-65-36-47.zone16.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:15:58 Ralt [Ralt@2a01:7e00::f03c:91ff:feae:6c69] has joined #lisp 18:16:01 -!- Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:17:43 -!- teggi [~teggi@113.173.24.151] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:19:38 -!- j_king [~jking@mortar.walled.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:20:24 -!- ehu [~ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:21:30 -!- sambio [~sambio@unaffiliated/sambio] has quit [] 18:21:54 j_king [~jking@mortar.walled.net] has joined #lisp 18:22:20 https://gist.github.com/Denommus/5339087 18:23:13 ejohnson [~Thunderbi@c-67-181-201-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:24:04 Denommus: do you have a question? 18:24:06 mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has joined #lisp 18:25:33 stassats`: only one. The lambda on the 14th line, could I make it... prettier? (Or shorter) 18:25:41 stassats`: sorry for taking too long, somebody called me 18:26:59 Denommus: I would ask a pcre regex expert; there is almost certainly a way to do that with one regex. Also, why are you doing a map on the results of a loop; wouldn't it be easier to just run the lambda in the loop? 18:27:20 sambio [~sambio@190.57.227.109] has joined #lisp 18:27:21 -!- sambio [~sambio@190.57.227.109] has quit [Changing host] 18:27:21 sambio [~sambio@unaffiliated/sambio] has joined #lisp 18:28:15 Blice_ [~blice@alrig.ht] has joined #lisp 18:28:39 -!- tcr [~tcr@77-56-40-229.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:28:42 cajetanus [~user@aefi167.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 18:28:43 (substitute #\] #\) (substitute #\[ #\( string)) 18:28:48 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-79.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:29:01 Denommus: fyi, (loop for i = 1 then (1+ i) ...) is usually written (loop for i from 1 ...) 18:29:26 jasom: wow, I didn't saw that 18:29:49 Oh, I misread the regex as \\( rather than \(, stassats` is right 18:30:26 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-79.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 18:32:09 Xach: ok, thanks 18:32:58 kiuma [~kiuma@2-230-138-74.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 18:32:58 Dalek_Baldwin [~Adium@71-84-34-33.dhcp.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has joined #lisp 18:33:36 Denommus: https://gist.github.com/Denommus/5339087#comment-812679 18:34:09 bhyde [~bhyde@c-24-61-81-138.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:35:14 _veer [~veer@pool-108-33-26-144.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:35:14 -!- _veer [~veer@pool-108-33-26-144.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 18:35:15 _veer [~veer@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 18:37:08 -!- zophy [ceb02321@gateway/web/freenode/ip.206.176.35.33] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:37:29 (let ((epsilon short-float-epsilon)) (not (= (float 0 epsilon) (+ (float 0 epsilon) long-float-epsilon)))) --> T . I expected a result like nil because of l-f-e << sh-f-e. 18:37:55 Why the result is T? thx. 18:38:00 ehaliewicz [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 18:38:04 Denommus: should be count-if, not count 18:38:21 silenius [~silenius@p54BFB3FC.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:39:27 (cl-ppcre:regex-replace-all "\\(|\\)" string (lambda (ts s e ms &rest r) (if (char= (char ts ms) #\() "[" "]"))) will also do it 18:39:49 Denommus: or that way https://gist.github.com/Denommus/5339087#comment-812685 18:40:18 Or a more readable regex to match parens is "[()]" now that I think of it 18:44:17 pnpuff: s-f-e is promoted to a long float, iirc 18:44:46 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-99-183-240-66.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:46:45 Bike: Thx, but why this happens? 18:48:06 -!- jack_rabbit [~kyle@c-98-253-60-75.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:48:14 ISF [~ivan@189.61.222.251] has joined #lisp 18:48:48 because that's how float promotion works, because it's usually convenient 18:50:13 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-79.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:51:01 Kruppe [~user@j2petkovich.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 18:51:33 Illiux [~illiux@mobile-198-228-194-004.mycingular.net] has joined #lisp 18:51:54 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-79.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 18:52:13 Denommus: and in pure CL: https://gist.github.com/Denommus/5339087/#comment-812695 18:52:43 brb, meeting 18:53:26 -!- Brucio-92 [goldenligh@gateway/shell/devio.us/x-mlapbcrertrqajdv] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:53:29 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-cbxklpxwoolqhwdm] has joined #lisp 18:53:30 Question: how well does CL support a functional style? 18:53:30 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-cbxklpxwoolqhwdm] has quit [Changing host] 18:53:30 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 18:53:33 ramkrsna_ [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-dsclavghrxyenftp] has joined #lisp 18:53:51 pretty well 18:54:04 pull in alexandria, and it's even better. 18:54:34 I've read that tail call optimization is an implementation-specific feature? 18:54:39 bind [~bind@5ED5B26C.cm-7-6c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #lisp 18:54:44 yup 18:55:17 Illiux: yes, but most implementations will do it if you turn the optimization knobs correctly; most people here think relying on it is a Bad Thing, but I do it regularly 18:55:23 antgreen [~green@209.118.250.254] has joined #lisp 18:55:27 mr23 [~mario@130.255.104.43] has joined #lisp 18:56:03 -!- mr23 [~mario@130.255.104.43] has quit [Client Quit] 18:56:22 Illiux: one thing to watch out for is that some macros and special forms make things not tail-calls even when the last form in the code as you read it is a function call 18:57:08 Illiux: also the standard library doesn't have a non-mutating sort, so wrap your sort calls with copy-sequence 18:57:22 Illiux: you can make macros that you know have tail calls, though 18:57:42 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-161-201.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:57:55 goodnight #lisp 18:58:05 protist: what? 18:58:18 stassats`: ? 18:58:20 -!- bind [~bind@5ED5B26C.cm-7-6c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Client Quit] 18:58:34 your statement does not make sense 18:58:55 stassats`: you can make a macro that expands to a proper tail call 18:59:07 snowylike [~sn@91-67-171-156-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 18:59:07 I think he means you can make macros that will still work as tail calls when called as the last form 18:59:21 protist: that statement does not make sense 18:59:35 stassats`: sec 18:59:36 stassats`: (defmacro must-tail-cal ((fn) &body b) `(progn ,@b (funcall ,fn)) <-- this might be what he's talking about 18:59:40 -!- gf3 [~gf3@aether.gf3.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 18:59:50 -!- silenius [~silenius@p54BFB3FC.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:00:25 Also, I'm having some trouble finding information about support for immutable data structures 19:00:35 jasom: i don't see a significance of this, the implementation won't optimize it any better 19:00:50 stassats`: but the call is usually in the tail position; I thought of cases where it isn't 19:01:11 (defun foo (*special-var*) (must-tail-call (#'foo) ...)) 19:01:12 jasom: (progn (must-tail-call ...) (format t "This form might be in tail position; the previous one certainly wasn't~%")) 19:01:57 fmeyer [~fmeyer@200-150-182-201.static-corp.ajato.com.br] has joined #lisp 19:02:07 stassats`: nlet-tail on page 137 of LoL is a macro that expands to a tailcalling control structure 19:03:16 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-161-201.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 19:03:18 protist: It might expand into tagbody/go but it certainly can't expand into guaranteed tail calls. 19:03:39 pkhuong: it expands to tagbody and return-from 19:03:46 http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:R-JahtdDUfQJ:letoverlambda.com/index.cl/guest/chap5.html+nlet-tail&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us 19:05:23 pnpuff, Bike: Isn't it T because 0 is never equal to long-float-epsilon? 19:06:51 -!- zophy_ [goldenligh@gateway/shell/devio.us/x-eyniletoieczmqot] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:07:49 Illiux: lisp is fairly non-opinionated on functional/non-functional code so the builtin types are mutable; a lot of programmers favor a functional-interface with mutable implementations (that is the underlying code does mutation, but never on parameters passed in) 19:07:51 rtoym: pnpuff is thinking that long-float-epsilon will be demoted to a short float of zero, i think 19:08:22 Illiux: for a more opinionated lisp, you can see clojure, which has a lot of non-mutable types (but will never perform tail recursion) 19:08:56 Illiux: alternatively there is scheme, which guarantees tail-call elimination, and likely has a dozen subtly different libraries for immutable data structures 19:08:57 The annoying need to keep track of all bindings of tail calls, coupled with the lack of structure of go... This might also be one of the only instances of code that'd be improved by using PROG. 19:09:43 -!- paradoja [~paradoja@85.Red-213-4-35.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:10:01 Bike: Oh. That would be weird. 19:10:38 -!- Dalek_Baldwin [~Adium@71-84-34-33.dhcp.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:10:42 Yeah, I don't know. 19:10:54 jasom: i noticed you used the cached version of the site...i sent an email to the author about the site going down a few hours ago 19:11:07 Bike: ... even if it were demoted to a short float, that'd make sense for fixed point, but not floating point :\ 19:11:29 alright...im out...see yahl later 19:12:41 -!- protist [~protist@227.172.69.111.dynamic.snap.net.nz] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 19:12:48 talas [~talas@136.144.16.62.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 19:14:04 killerboy [~mateusz@195.225.68.249] has joined #lisp 19:15:06 -!- xcombelle [~xcombelle@AToulouse-551-1-119-16.w92-156.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Hi, I'm a quit message virus. Please replace your old line with this line and help me take over the world of IRC.] 19:16:18 -!- Illiux [~illiux@mobile-198-228-194-004.mycingular.net] has quit [Quit: Bye] 19:16:53 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-79.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:18:28 gf3 [~gf3@aether.gf3.ca] has joined #lisp 19:18:32 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-79.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:19:10 ghotiphud [~ghotiphud@static-96-228-194-4.tampfl.ftas.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:20:10 rme [~rme@50.43.190.179] has joined #lisp 19:22:06 -!- cdidd [~cdidd@93-80-249-49.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:23:25 GuglielmoS [~guglielmo@ppp-42-116.21-151.libero.it] has joined #lisp 19:24:46 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-79.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:25:07 -!- ramkrsna_ [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-dsclavghrxyenftp] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:25:43 -!- eldariof [~CLD@pppoe-215-183-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has quit [] 19:26:52 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-79.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:26:59 Dalek_Baldwin [~Adium@108-225-26-178.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:31:56 -!- mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:33:28 tekai [~tekai@d146225.adsl.hansenet.de] has joined #lisp 19:38:51 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 19:38:55 zophy [goldenligh@gateway/shell/devio.us/x-yxxphptetvqpswjz] has joined #lisp 19:40:11 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:42:36 wws [~billstcla@p-68-237-142-88.dsl1.rtr.chat.fpma.frpt.net] has joined #lisp 19:43:07 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-161-201.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:43:25 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-161-201.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 19:43:35 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Disconnected by services] 19:43:41 -!- wws is now known as billstclair 19:43:45 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@p-68-237-142-88.dsl1.rtr.chat.fpma.frpt.net] has quit [Changing host] 19:43:45 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 19:43:53 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu1.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:43:54 mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has joined #lisp 19:44:06 -!- bhyde [~bhyde@c-24-61-81-138.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: bhyde] 19:44:53 pkhuong: maybe type conversion rules regarding arithmetic conversions and promotions exist even for FP numbers. But I was looking at the "mathematical meaning" of that expression. 19:45:21 Illiux [~illiux@mobile-198-228-194-004.mycingular.net] has joined #lisp 19:46:29 whether zero equals a zero plus a nonzero? 19:46:37 pnpuff: Unless short floats have really tiny exponent ranges, I wouldn't expect l-f-e to round to 0 when converted to a short float. 19:46:57 I don't think *-f-e means what you think it does. 19:47:31 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-79.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:49:25 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-79.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:50:29 is there a way when using (mapc #'func-name (list ... to pass a second param to func-name? (short of using a lambda)? 19:51:03 Like, if I had (defun times (a b) (* a b)), and wanted to run (mapc #'times 4 (list ....) 19:51:26 or would (mapc (lambda (b) (times 4 b)) (list ...) 19:51:30 be the best option? 19:51:31 (mapc (alexandria:curry #'times 4) ...) which amounts to making an anonymous function, of course. 19:51:35 (mapc #'times (list ....) '(4 4 4 4)) 19:52:02 ahungry, using higher-order combinators 19:52:44 is alexandria a third party package? 19:53:46 pkhuong: It means what I see here: http://www.ai.mit.edu/projects/iiip/doc/CommonLISP/HyperSpec/Body/convar_short-_tive-epsilon.html#double-float-epsilon .. but little is said regarding the . 19:53:55 ahungry: (loop for b in list do (times b 4)) would be the option i would use 19:54:12 ahungry: yes, but curry would just do what you wrote anyway. 19:55:16 thanks guys! 19:55:25 smazga [~acrid@64.55.45.194] has joined #lisp 19:55:35 -!- Illiux [~illiux@mobile-198-228-194-004.mycingular.net] has quit [Quit: Bye] 19:55:37 mc40 [~mc40@host86-148-31-142.range86-148.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 19:59:27 -!- Fare [fare@nat/google/x-phydtrjafzrghgjn] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20:02:06 b1rkh0ff [~b1rkh0ff@46.36.172.132] has joined #lisp 20:03:13 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-79.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20:03:38 AndChat605625 [~AndChat60@maidenhead3.tunnelr.com] has joined #lisp 20:04:50 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-79.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 20:05:24 -!- AndChat605625 [~AndChat60@maidenhead3.tunnelr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 20:06:03 -!- specbot [~specbot@pppoe.178-66-78-215.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:06:15 -!- minion [~minion@pppoe.178-66-78-215.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:06:23 milkpost [~dec@192.133.84.6] has joined #lisp 20:07:07 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:09:51 gendl [~dcooper8@c-98-250-10-50.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:10:08 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-79.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:10:35 hello. sbcl defines sb-kernel:index-too-large-error, but is there a portable way of catching out-of-bounds array indices? 20:10:50 -!- milkpost [~dec@192.133.84.6] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:11:58 doubt it. you can use array-in-bounds-p to check yourself before the aref/whatever. 20:12:07 milkpost [~dec@192.133.84.6] has joined #lisp 20:12:09 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-79.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 20:12:19 meh. 20:12:25 would be so much easier. 20:12:44 There's nothing specified so that in unsafe code things can go all C, and suchlike, I imagine. 20:13:10 yep, but compilers usually do array-bounds checking anyway. 20:13:43 -!- ISF [~ivan@189.61.222.251] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20:13:46 -!- spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:14:11 -!- snatch [~patric@m37-197-16-251.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:14:51 spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 20:15:05 strange. in clisp it is a simple-type-error. 20:15:49 same for ecl 20:16:24 well the sb-kernel condition you mentioned is a type-error 20:17:03 but not a simple-type-error, as it seems 20:17:58 But why would you ever distinguish simple-type-error vs type-error? 20:18:01 well, it does not really matter, I will just overload #'elt 20:18:22 foom: I would like to distinguish other type-errors from an out-of-bounds-error 20:18:47 That also seems an odd requirement. 20:18:52 why? 20:19:07 What are you going to do differently? 20:19:35 I would catch only out-of-bounds-errors 20:19:49 (defun checked-aref (array &rest indices) (if (apply #'array-in-bounds-p array indices) (apply #'aref array indices) (error 'oob))) should be enough for you? 20:19:50 -!- Kruppe [~user@j2petkovich.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:20:00 -!- snowylike [~sn@91-67-171-156-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de] 20:20:20 Bike: as I said before, I will just overload elt, so ... yes ... 20:20:29 Bike: still I consider this a design flaw somehow. 20:20:30 right 20:20:59 but well, the standard does not even define array-bounds checking 20:21:21 so it is a fault of the implementations 20:21:41 (not that it really matters) 20:21:49 -!- spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:23:39 pnpuff_ [~pnpuff@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 20:24:23 -!- ebobby [~fms@199.21.86.106] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20:24:48 -!- mc40 [~mc40@host86-148-31-142.range86-148.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: mc40] 20:27:12 -!- pnpuff [~pnpuff@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:27:22 -!- pnpuff_ [~pnpuff@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has quit [Client Quit] 20:27:36 -!- GuglielmoS [~guglielmo@ppp-42-116.21-151.libero.it] has quit [Quit: GuglielmoS] 20:30:56 leoc [~leoc.git@p5DDB8A9D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:31:07 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-79.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:32:40 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-79.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 20:34:13 -!- _d3f [~gnu@nl2.ovpn.to] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.0] 20:36:17 -!- stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-229-037.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 20:38:26 pnpuff [~pnpuff@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 20:39:01 (let ((epsilon short-float-epsilon)) (/ (float 0 epsilon) (+ (float 0 epsilon) long-float-epsilon))) --> 0.0s0 ? 20:42:24 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:42:46 -!- ghotiphud [~ghotiphud@static-96-228-194-4.tampfl.ftas.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:45:34 nha_ [~prefect@koln-5d8154b1.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 20:46:12 -!- gendl [~dcooper8@c-98-250-10-50.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20:46:48 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 20:47:57 yes, dividing 0 by a positive value yields zero. Dividing a short-float 0 by long-float-epsilon most likely does not yield a short float, however. 20:48:01 ebobby [~fms@199.21.86.106] has joined #lisp 20:49:01 AeroNoti1 [~xeno@abod176.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 20:49:29 some_user [~user@h-89-32.a176.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 20:49:39 -!- some_user [~user@h-89-32.a176.priv.bahnhof.se] has left #lisp 20:49:54 Jabberwockey [~quassel@83.151.30.10] has joined #lisp 20:50:51 bhyde [~bhyde@c-24-61-81-138.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:51:20 -!- AeroNotix [~xeno@aboq38.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:51:49 -!- Jabberwockey [~quassel@83.151.30.10] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:52:18 bananagram [~bot@c-98-198-236-112.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:52:21 -!- sellout [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:53:25 gendl [~dcooper8@c-98-250-10-50.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:54:40 pkhuong: sure .. but I have not a "simple division" by zero, I have an indeterminate expression 0 / 0 that gives me 0. 20:55:15 what are you on about, (+ (float 0 epsilon) long-float-epsilon) isn't zero 20:55:46 Bike: why this (/ short-float-epsilon (+ short-float-epsilon long-float-epsilon)) is a one? 20:55:58 -!- AeroNoti1 [~xeno@abod176.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: Uploading hax.....] 20:56:19 it's not. did you read that "what every programmer should know about floating point" thing? 20:57:29 -!- daniel_- [~daniel_-@unaffiliated/daniel--/x-1801510] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:59:05 It could be one, depending on what types short-float and long-float are. Especially if you're using clisp with extra long long-floats. 20:59:39 Bike: unlikely not yet. But seems that I have to read it. 20:59:48 daniel_- [~daniel_-@unaffiliated/daniel--/x-1801510] has joined #lisp 20:59:56 Fare [fare@nat/google/x-vxhujkdaqqclvbzb] has joined #lisp 20:59:58 Jabberwockey [~quassel@83.151.30.10] has joined #lisp 21:00:07 -!- Jabberwockey [~quassel@83.151.30.10] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:01:00 sellout- [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:01:21 -!- ahungry [~null@66.184.106.97] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:01:26 -!- Flame_Alchemist [~Flame_Alc@2-225-106-57.ip175.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:01:41 Jabberwockey [~quassel@83.151.30.10] has joined #lisp 21:02:02 rtoym: you're right ... 21:02:33 pnpuff: Right about what? clisp? Because I think my statement is actually wrong. :-) 21:02:47 yes about clisp. 21:03:26 Ah, clisp is different. For one, it's contagion rules by default use the least precise result. 21:03:56 -!- clox [~user@rrcs-208-125-109-116.nys.biz.rr.com] has left #lisp 21:03:58 There's some way to enable ansi contagion rules, but I don't know it right now. 21:04:43 davazp [~user@92.251.159.95.threembb.ie] has joined #lisp 21:04:44 Ah. It's (setq custom:*floating-point-contagion-ansi* t) 21:04:57 FareWell [fare@nat/google/x-jiitjtoejvmuicbw] has joined #lisp 21:06:01 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@72.53.112.90] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:06:52 lemoinem [~swoog@72.53.112.90] has joined #lisp 21:08:09 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-5f75cc24.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:09:06 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@2-230-138-74.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:09:14 -!- casion [~AdmiralBu@pool-71-99-141-240.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: casion] 21:09:36 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-79.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:10:45 -!- pib1943 [~pib1943@your.friendly.media.team.coder.ark-cr.info] has quit [Write error: Broken pipe] 21:10:47 rtoym: ok, thx. Anyway I was wrong because any in any number type is not equal to zero... 21:11:31 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-79.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 21:11:53 Henesy [~h3n3sy@adsl-75-17-76-112.dsl.peoril.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:12:15 -!- talas [~talas@136.144.16.62.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:13:30 -!- gendl [~dcooper8@c-98-250-10-50.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: gendl] 21:20:22 Illiux [~illiux@mobile-198-228-194-004.mycingular.net] has joined #lisp 21:23:07 pib1956 [~pib1956@your.friendly.media.team.coder.ark-cr.info] has joined #lisp 21:27:00 joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@public-nat2.arc.losrios.edu] has joined #lisp 21:27:20 -!- pnpuff [~pnpuff@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:28:13 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:28:28 jimmy [~bonsai@c-69-251-139-157.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:30:55 -!- Illiux [~illiux@mobile-198-228-194-004.mycingular.net] has quit [Quit: Bye] 21:33:53 -!- Thra11 [~thrall@103.19.113.87.dyn.plus.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:35:00 -!- xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.130.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:35:12 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-161-201.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:36:16 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-79.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:36:38 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.180.126.217] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 21:38:04 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-79.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 21:40:31 -!- bhyde [~bhyde@c-24-61-81-138.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: bhyde] 21:40:53 Is there a way to set the float type used when a float is read in with no exponent marker? 21:41:51 jasom: *read-default-float-format* 21:42:50 is there a function like CONSTANTLY, but that doesn't take any parameters? 21:43:08 robot-beethoven: what would it return? 21:43:27 T 21:43:53 robot-beethoven: a function that returns t when called? or just t? 21:44:42 robot-beethoven: (defun constantly-t () (constantly t)) 21:45:08 Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 21:45:25 oh wait, i was misunderstanding how constantly works 21:45:27 never mind 21:45:55 *phew* 21:46:01 -!- sambio [~sambio@unaffiliated/sambio] has quit [] 21:46:46 heh, lispworks seems to have a trick to always return the same object for (constantly t). 21:47:22 bitonic [~user@176.27.227.101] has joined #lisp 21:48:13 -!- leoc [~leoc.git@p5DDB8A9D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:49:07 hmm ecl too I think 21:49:18 -!- Myk267 [~myk@adsl-75-23-132-24.dsl.mtry01.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Changing host] 21:49:18 Myk267 [~myk@unaffiliated/myk267] has joined #lisp 21:49:51 it actually returns #'lw:true for (constantly t) and #'lw:false for (constantly nil) 21:50:08 sensible. 21:50:43 Isn't it required to? 21:50:52 i.e. isn't (eq t t) always true? 21:51:07 jasom: sure, but (eq (constantly t) (constantly t)) need not be true. 21:51:12 ohhh 21:51:22 EXT:CONSTANTLY-T EXT:CONSTANTLY-NIL on ECL 21:51:33 a trivial definition of constantly could be (defun constantly (value) (lambda (&rest args) value)) 21:51:40 got it 21:53:51 (setf (symbol-function 'constantly-true) (constantly (constantly t))) 21:55:05 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f756f81.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 21:55:27 heh 21:56:30 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:57:47 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has quit [Quit: going to moon brb] 21:58:00 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has joined #lisp 21:58:22 `arrdem [~user@resnet-45-187.dorm.utexas.edu] has joined #lisp 21:59:08 sambio [~sambio@190.57.227.109] has joined #lisp 21:59:08 -!- sambio [~sambio@190.57.227.109] has quit [Changing host] 21:59:09 sambio [~sambio@unaffiliated/sambio] has joined #lisp 22:02:17 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-79.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:03:38 ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.167] has joined #lisp 22:05:21 DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@101.175.65.1] has joined #lisp 22:05:38 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.96.86] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 22:06:47 -!- Denommus [~user@201.75.85.87] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.3.1] 22:08:20 groovy2shoes [~cory@unaffiliated/groovebot] has joined #lisp 22:09:07 tensorpuddin [~tensorpud@99.102.71.196] has joined #lisp 22:09:31 -!- pavelpenev [~quassel@85-130-11-8.2073813645.shumen.cablebg.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:10:36 -!- wyan [~wyan@ec2-54-246-94-212.eu-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 22:10:43 drmeister [~drmeister@166.137.84.153] has joined #lisp 22:11:57 wyan [~wyan@ec2-54-246-94-212.eu-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com] has joined #lisp 22:12:48 -!- tensorpudding [~tensorpud@99.148.202.144] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:12:58 sykopomp, herep 22:13:20 joe9 [~user@c-71-236-20-61.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:13:24 I have what looks like a deadlock between send and recv both with blockp t — is that "normal"? 22:13:48 nialo [nialo@ool-44c53f01.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 22:15:29 Denommus [~user@201.75.85.87] has joined #lisp 22:16:15 ehu [~ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 22:17:31 -!- nha_ [~prefect@koln-5d8154b1.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:18:13 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@101.175.65.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 22:18:36 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@200-150-182-201.static-corp.ajato.com.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:18:42 breakds [~breakds@wifi-116.cs.wisc.edu] has joined #lisp 22:20:26 -!- ehu [~ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:21:33 actually, the deadlock looks like it's even quicker with send blockp nil 22:21:35 gendl [~dcooper8@c-98-250-10-50.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:26:04 -!- puchacz [~puchacz@46-65-36-47.zone16.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:26:11 -!- Codynyx [~cody@c-75-72-222-103.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:26:45 Codynyx [~cody@c-75-72-222-103.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:28:08 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:29:18 -!- mgile [~mgile@74-92-220-177-Colorado.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Parting is such sweet sorrow...] 22:30:21 -!- victor_lowther [~victorlow@143.166.116.80] has quit [Quit: Leaving IRC - dircproxy 1.2.0] 22:30:40 (with blockp, I didn't check that there wasn't another thread using send blockp t from before I recompiled the functions; trying again from a clean compile with send blockp nil) 22:31:45 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@166.137.84.153] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:35:45 -!- dnolen [~user@212.23.236.122] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:38:17 -!- adelgado [~TomSawyer@65.23.61.98.nw.nuvox.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:39:39 -!- sambio [~sambio@unaffiliated/sambio] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:40:49 Bike_ [~Glossina@67-5-253-220.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 22:40:54 -!- scoofy [~scoofy@catv-89-135-71-167.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:41:08 -!- tekai [~tekai@d146225.adsl.hansenet.de] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.3.1] 22:42:13 -!- Bike [~Glossina@174-25-60-114.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:43:10 sambio [~sambio@190.57.227.109] has joined #lisp 22:43:11 -!- sambio [~sambio@190.57.227.109] has quit [Changing host] 22:43:11 sambio [~sambio@unaffiliated/sambio] has joined #lisp 22:45:44 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 22:48:30 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@195.225.68.249] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:48:48 I'm more and more impressed with CL 22:49:18 -!- b1rkh0ff [~b1rkh0ff@46.36.172.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:49:31 Denommus: me too 22:50:41 I read `let over lambda` and `practical Common Lisp` and as I'm now trying to use it, I always discover things I never saw before :) 22:51:20 I think my big insight on how Common Lisp is unique was when I found out about the change-class function 22:51:44 What does it do? 22:52:04 it changes the class of an object in execution time 22:52:12 -!- gendl [~dcooper8@c-98-250-10-50.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: gendl] 22:52:22 some kind of metaprogramming-foo? 22:52:59 so, for instance, if I must represent something similar to "State Pattern" from other languages (which is a way to emulate an object changing its class), I simply change my damn class :) 22:53:10 Fare: did you reproduce it? 22:53:42 -!- breakds [~breakds@wifi-116.cs.wisc.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:53:55 Design patterns are deficiencies in programming languages. 22:53:55 it probably is some sort of metaprogramming, but it's as easy as (change-class instance 'new-class) 22:54:11 It looks fairly reproducible with blockp t on both send and recv 22:54:23 milosn_ [~milosn@user-5af50108.broadband.tesco.net] has joined #lisp 22:54:29 couldn't reproduce for sure w/ only recv blockp t and send blockp nil 22:54:30 Looks awesome, but I wonder how what happens with the class slots 22:54:39 pjb: Common Lisp is making me accept this as truth. I didn't believe it because of State Pattern (which I always saw as a great tool) 22:54:52 There's no design pattern in lisp, because either it's covered by the language, or you can write a macro to implement it (and CLOS is written as a set of library functions and macros anyways, so it's really just: there are lisp macros therefore there's no defect to lisp). 22:54:58 Forgetaboutit: if both classes have the same slots, they remain the same 22:55:04 so I'll attribute the latter to send blockp t with threads launched before the recompile 22:55:22 there's one design pattern: write a macro 22:55:45 Patterns mean "I have run out of language." — Rich Hickey 22:55:50 Try to write up the design pattern. I bet you'll fail. 22:55:51 Fare: I would say "but you must avoid to write macros". And then I realised that you must also avoid design patterns 22:56:15 -!- milosn [~milosn@user-5af50fc0.broadband.tesco.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:56:29 macros have a cost, and benefits -- you must "avoid" in that you must make sure the benefits are greater than the cost. 22:57:31 I still didn't encounter a situation in which I really needed a macro. Probably I will someday (when I start to use CL professionaly, which I hope will be soon) 22:57:32 so, no gratuitous macros, please, but yes non-gratuitous macros 22:57:42 -!- Bike_ is now known as Bike 22:58:00 you never "need" macros. you never "need" anything else than intercal, either. 22:58:13 Fare: several people (who don't know CL however) find it tedious having to write all the stuff they need themselves 22:58:13 depending on what you call "need", anyway. 22:58:30 they rather want huge libraries 22:58:31 yes, there are cases where the benefits far overwhelm the costs. 22:58:43 Forgetaboutit: if they really found it tedious, they wouldn't be using Java 22:58:45 Forgetaboutit, they can hire me 22:58:56 where they need a pattern to make something trivial 22:59:30 CL is not about having to rewrite everything, is having tools to make what you need, and when the tools aren't enough, you have tools to create your own tools 22:59:56 Forgetaboutit: most lispers find it tedious having to write all the stuff they need themselves too. Unless by "stuff" you mean a macro to generate {x,ht}ml from s-expressions 23:00:11 which I think every lisper has written a version of 23:00:30 Denommus: They don't like Java either :) 23:01:36 Fare: they're programmers themselves, but with few years experience - just like me. Maybe they'll learn :) 23:02:08 Forgetaboutit: well, Java is still the most used language (together with C) 23:02:29 -!- Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:02:39 but C still haven't being surpassed on its nich 23:02:54 -!- abeaumont [~abeaumont@183.Red-79-157-215.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:02:55 jasom: You're right, this seems a rather simple example. I'm talking of libraries for various stuff like HTML parsing, web frameworks, etc. pp. I'm not familiar enough with the CL libraries out there 23:03:15 mostly because people write runtimes for all their funny "scripting" languages in C ;P 23:03:32 -!- Shinmera [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:03:39 Forgetaboutit: and because it's lisp, you can soon write your own :) 23:03:42 and because Unix tends to not have ABI outside "C" 23:04:28 Forgetaboutit: there aren't as many libraries in CL as there are in Java, Ruby and Python. But this is the chicken and egg problem 23:04:29 phadthai: I plan to :). I need to learn a lot, so I'm building my own web stack in CL from the ground up. 23:04:31 Forgetaboutit: html parsing: closure-html; web frameworks: http://cliki.net/web%20framework 23:04:48 DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@1.129.113.189] has joined #lisp 23:05:03 abeaumont [~abeaumont@183.Red-79-157-215.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 23:05:12 -!- DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:05:31 I'm starting to idealize a Sinatra-like framework for CL, but I still didn't have the time for it 23:05:44 knob [~knob@adsl-64-237-138-215.prtc.net] has joined #lisp 23:05:53 Kruppe [~user@CPE602ad0938e9a-CM602ad0938e97.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 23:05:55 breakds [~breakds@wifi-116.cs.wisc.edu] has joined #lisp 23:06:51 eh, the simplicity 23:07:03 singing and dancing framework? Sorry for my humor, mostly afk anyway :) 23:07:19 p_l: I found CFFI pleasant to work with (regarding C-ABIs) 23:07:20 I am instead tempted to rewrite a design I have seen in Java, just to show how it *should* be implemented when not constrained by broken language 23:07:28 Forgetaboutit: me as well 23:07:29 - 23:07:49 Forgetaboutit: but it could be better if there was more precise ABI, IMHO 23:08:26 phadthai: Sinatra is a pretty simple web framework written in Ruby. It uses DSL for answering HTTP requests in a simple fashion 23:08:27 I could only complain about the documentation; it has not always been completely obvious for me how to do things 23:08:41 phadthai: http://www.sinatrarb.com/ 23:08:47 Forgetaboutit: I used SWIG to learn CFFI 23:08:51 worked quite fine 23:09:25 Doesn't SWIG come from C++? 23:09:44 Forgetaboutit: Load the library into a slime session and look at all the exported functions; a lot of time the docs are out-of-date or nonexistant, but the functions will either be straightforward, or with docstrings 23:09:48 -!- Henesy [~h3n3sy@adsl-75-17-76-112.dsl.peoril.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:09:52 Saw it before, looked horribly verbose 23:09:59 it supports a bit of C++ as well, but I used it to generate starting code for interface to C library 23:10:18 nice 23:10:54 I forked an existing project on Github and updated to the new version of the C library 23:10:58 mc40 [~mc40@host86-148-31-142.range86-148.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 23:11:37 1745 lines of Ruby 23:11:41 I guess the easiest way to learn is to read code and ask questions :) 23:11:48 not counting with tests 23:11:58 I wonder in how many lines I could do this in CL 23:12:05 Denommus: the Sinatra line count? 23:12:18 Forgetaboutit: yup 23:12:38 depends on approach, I'd say 23:12:44 also, look into Clack 23:12:48 it's similar 23:12:55 used it several weeks ago at work, very handy framework 23:13:49 Denommus: keep in mind, that Ruby has tons of libraries 23:13:52 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-70.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:14:41 -!- rme [~rme@50.43.190.179] has left #lisp 23:14:42 how would you design the web server part? 23:15:11 Forgetaboutit: there's already a half-dozne web servers in common-lisp; no need to reinvent that part 23:15:18 s/dozne/dozen 23:15:35 Forgetaboutit: I know, but most of libraries that Sinatra uses are for server communication. I guess CL also has that. Anyway, it's just an idea 23:15:47 jasom: I like to reinvent - for learning :) 23:16:00 I like to reinvent what I need to reinvent 23:16:20 if I'm not trying to write a server, but a web framework, I'll use a existing server 23:16:27 not that you're wrong with your approach, of course 23:16:28 *jasom* started to implement an http server once and all he learned was that the http RFCs are a pain in the butt 23:16:30 Put up my Common Lisp presentation online: http://composed.nu/peterhil/code/common-lisp-friday/ (the other server has some strange redirects, so had went into obscurity). Also on Github: https://github.com/peterhil/common-lisp-friday (shuold use package.json to install reveal.js and only include the content...) 23:16:58 scoofy [~scoofy@catv-89-135-71-167.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 23:17:07 I think I'm missing something obvious here, but, how does one tail-call a closure? 23:17:19 Bike: funcall 23:17:29 jasom: I'm not trying to reimplement HTTP, of course :) 23:17:37 p_l: wow, my idea could be implemented using macros on top of clack! 23:17:40 Well I mean, how would you compile it? Don't you have to reestablish the closure environment each time? 23:17:55 Bike: I'm not sure what you're asking 23:18:12 If you have a closure, then you can funcall it 23:18:21 Bike: you could create a local function with labels 23:18:23 i'm asking about internals. 23:18:36 Bike: you mean recurse into an anonymous function? 23:18:45 nevermind, i think i got something. 23:18:48 -!- daniel_- [~daniel_-@unaffiliated/daniel--/x-1801510] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:19:32 Bike: you establish the closure environment each time, yes, but you can blow away the current function's stack before you call it if it's a tail-call 23:19:43 -!- abeaumont [~abeaumont@183.Red-79-157-215.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:19:50 oh, of course. thanks. 23:20:45 oh, I just understood the doubt now 23:20:55 -!- bitonic [~user@176.27.227.101] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:21:19 honkfestival [~honkfesti@198-84-183-94.cpe.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 23:22:12 bhyde [~bhyde@c-24-61-81-138.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:22:15 well, I think I have a weekend project 23:22:53 -!- davazp [~user@92.251.159.95.threembb.ie] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:24:09 Denommus: Clack looks really cool 23:24:12 -!- groovy2shoes [~cory@unaffiliated/groovebot] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 23:26:05 Denommus: One interesting web framework in CL is Uncommon Web. It needs more love... see https://github.com/erikg/ucw-core 23:28:28 Also see http://common-lisp.net/project/ucw/ for docs 23:30:05 -!- sbaugh [~sbaugh@unaffiliated/sbaugh] has left #lisp 23:33:12 -!- jimmy [~bonsai@c-69-251-139-157.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:33:53 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 23:34:38 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:35:07 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 23:36:13 -!- nilsi [~nilsi@c83-253-22-138.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:37:15 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-136-28-1.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:37:34 ok, some of my coworkers are working on a game without inviting me for the brainstorm sessions, and I'm one of the guys on the subdivision of games. This is disappointing 23:37:48 luckly for me, I'm already working on my own Common Lisp game without telling them 23:39:53 also see #lispweb for some unlisted web frameworks :) 23:40:52 axion: btw: is there a way to write JavaScript in CL? 23:41:14 Forgetaboutit: Search for Parenscript 23:41:18 arenscript 23:41:24 oops yeah what Forgetaboutit said 23:41:29 err peterhil 23:41:37 thank you 23:41:41 axion: I think you need some coffee 23:41:49 i do lol 23:41:53 Denommus: CoffeeScript? :D 23:41:56 *p_l* needs coffee IV 23:42:10 Forgetaboutit: god, no 23:42:16 parenscript + sexml go well together 23:42:21 for me anyway 23:42:44 -!- ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.167] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:43:24 There is also Gazelle, which is a Lisp dialect in JS: http://dorophone.blogspot.com.br/2012/12/introducing-gazelle.html 23:43:32 And cl-markup, cl-who or yaclml for outputting HTML or XHMTL 23:43:51 and there was a lisp implementation of JS, which was afaik quite competetive before V8 :D 23:43:58 i used to use cl-who until madnificent showed me the light 23:44:00 (well, given SBCL as compiler) 23:44:30 axion: The light being what? 23:44:35 sexml :) 23:44:57 his pet project 23:45:01 kennyd [~kennyd@93-136-28-1.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 23:45:02 p_l: we should make an implementation of JS in Gazelle 23:46:09 I tried compiling clisp with emscripten, but it turns out clang can't compile clisp 23:46:32 nobody wants to re-implement JS :D 23:46:37 which language is clisp written on? 23:46:39 It generates incorrect code during the bootstrap 23:46:41 Denommus: C 23:46:55 Denommus: C Lisp -> clisp 23:47:09 oh, I always though it was because of common lisp 23:47:23 clisp and ecl are written in C, abcl is written in Java; I think the rest are written in common lisp 23:48:02 well, clisp is more of a VM implemented in C with some modules in C, rest is common lisp as well 23:48:03 I wanted to put ABCL in Android... (I know I can run Clozure in Android, although I can't use the Android API, so it's almost worthless) 23:48:04 jasom: So the rest needs a working CL to bootstrap? 23:48:11 Denommus: not yet 23:48:22 -!- zophy [goldenligh@gateway/shell/devio.us/x-yxxphptetvqpswjz] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:48:26 Forgetaboutit: yes 23:48:30 Java is painful. Android's SDK is painful 23:48:35 Forgetaboutit: ECL and clisp both include enough code to bootstrap from C, iirc 23:48:50 Forgetaboutit: SBCL requires ANSI CL to bootrap itself 23:48:56 CMUCL requires CMUCL 23:49:03 heh 23:49:05 -!- Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 23:49:13 what's ccl require? 23:49:15 what does ccl need to bootstrap? 23:49:26 *jasom* is guessing ccl 23:49:35 hm, the ccl kernel is in c and asm, unsurprisingly 23:49:39 I think CCL, but I never tried to bootstrap it 23:49:50 Odin- [~sbkhh@erudite.anarchism.is] has joined #lisp 23:49:54 Denommus: I saw http://wukix.com/mocl is working on CL on Android etc. 23:50:05 -!- Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has quit [] 23:50:05 Bike: well, same for CMUCL, CLISP, ECL, SBCL and SCL 23:50:11 yeah 23:50:15 unsurprising 23:50:15 Forgetaboutit: my guess is vapourware 23:50:32 although i didn't know scieneer was even worth mentioning 23:50:38 Probably, never heard anything again 23:50:46 Bike: more worth it than GCL, certainly 23:50:53 obviously :P 23:51:00 or... what was its name... AKCL? 23:51:13 XCL seems to have died off as well 23:51:14 Forgetaboutit: I hope it releases public. I just don't like cross-compiling that much 23:51:40 in case that helps you reproduce, the housekeeping-loop has bogus objects in #:abort #:abort-break #:g... %restarts% 23:51:51 when I backtrace it from the repl thread 23:52:02 Fare: ... that was wonderful line 23:52:04 (wrong chan) 23:52:19 That'd be great, plain Java + SDK is still as unpleasant as plain Java :) 23:52:21 Fare: mind if I steal the line about reproduction? :D 23:52:30 Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 23:52:38 because taken out of context it sounds hilarious 23:52:40 Fare: fare-memoization still useful? the link from cliki doesn't work 23:53:09 yes, I'm using it 23:53:17 oh, are all common-lisp.net projects not working? 23:53:28 wws [~billstcla@p-68-237-142-88.dsl1.rtr.chat.fpma.frpt.net] has joined #lisp 23:53:35 there's a new system function-cache or some such the author of which promise in the future they'd like to supersede it 23:53:55 but so far, I believe fare-memoization is still the best memoization package around for what it does. 23:54:14 yes, common-lisp.net server died, drewc is slowly working on fixing it 23:54:42 -!- billstclair [wws@clozure-93412ACD.dsl1.rtr.chat.fpma.frpt.net] has quit [Ping timeout] 23:54:43 is mocl out yet??? 23:54:50 Fare: nope 23:54:56 still stealth-mode 23:55:01 Forgetaboutit: calling Java "unpleasant" is a compliment. Java is painful 23:55:05 I'll believe it when I see it. 23:55:21 Fare: me too 23:55:25 jasom: ccl bootstraps from C and an old CCL image 23:55:41 Denommus: C++ is even worse, so be gentle ;) 23:55:41 but try to talk to a Java developer that they need even reference passing. Gosh, they can convince themselves that they don't need real features pretty quickly 23:55:55 -!- ellusioner [ellusioner@c-951ee755.05-23-6c6b7013.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: Hihi] 23:55:56 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:55:59 Forgetaboutit: I can have real lambdas and real reference passing in C++ 23:56:07 They'll get lambdas in Java 8 - yay :D 23:56:26 real lambdas in C++? I thought they were stack-allocated and therefore only descending funargs... 23:56:40 Yeah, but it can still beat Java' verbosity imho 23:56:58 Forgetaboutit: But not real closures. You won't be able to use a value of a variable from the previous scope, unless it's a final 23:57:50 Forgetaboutit: C++11 is a huge improvement, and can be less verbose than Java. Java 8 is a minor improvement. Lambdas aren't really different from what they already have with anonymous classes 23:58:31 Fare: Hm, didn't know about that, I'll check this 23:59:04 Denommus: I don't know C++11 in detail. Final is fine, you're mostly dealing with objects/references anyway 23:59:28 the boost empire doesn't leave much like that uncovered 23:59:43 jasom: projects _should_ be working ... exactly what problem are you seeing?