00:00:15 -!- LiamH [~none@pool-74-96-4-63.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:01:17 provides a graph data structure, common graph algorithms, etc. 00:01:40 ... Didn't chandler have a graph library of some sort? 00:01:43 I have data most naturally represented as a graph. I would prefer not to rewrite DFS. :) 00:01:48 chameco [~samuel@89.sub-70-215-10.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 00:02:04 (and sparse arrays and mst and dijkstra, etc etc) 00:03:15 lduros` [~user@pool-108-52-158-66.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:03:56 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@186.220.32.235] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:04:46 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 00:05:32 -!- nightfly__ [~sage@sagenite.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 00:06:38 -!- agumonkey [~agu@8.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 00:07:47 Corvidium [~cosman246@D-173-250-190-81.dhcp4.washington.edu] has joined #lisp 00:08:32 nightfly__ [~sage@sagenite.net] has joined #lisp 00:10:21 `arrdem [~user@resnet-45-187.dorm.utexas.edu] has joined #lisp 00:11:17 gendl [~gendl@c-98-250-10-50.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:13:57 -!- hugod [~user@38.108.74.28] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:16:22 maxm: yes 00:16:47 sw2wolf 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[~user@mail.fitness2live.com.au] has joined #lisp 02:05:28 Out of curiosity I was just playing with CCL, I usually use SBCL. I noticed two things: 1. I usually get the restart "reset this thread" and when I do this it sets the REPL thread in SLIME (as seen by M-x slime-list-threads) to have a status of "reset" and 2. Try as I might I can't get frames to show up as green in SLIME (meaning I can evaluate code within the frame and restart the frame with those evaluated changes in place wh 02:05:28 useful for e.g. changing parameter values). 02:05:57 -!- Bike [~Glossina@174-25-51-73.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 02:05:58 So two questions 1. What does the thread status "reset" mean. I wasn't able to find it in the SLIME documentation 02:07:44 Bike [~Glossina@67-5-250-10.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 02:08:07 2. What exactly governs whether a frame is manipulable in SLIME? What does my Common Lisp implementation need to support for me to be able to say "oh so when I compile with an optimize declaration specifier of some-val I'll get to change the stackframes underneath a signaled condition"? 02:16:15 -!- joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@mail.concordusapps.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:19:33 kvda [~kvda@unaffiliated/kvda] has joined #lisp 02:26:12 -!- dnolen [~user@cpe-74-64-32-223.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 02:26:24 ISF [~ivan@187.64.222.221] has joined #lisp 02:26:43 -!- ISF [~ivan@187.64.222.221] has quit [Client Quit] 02:27:30 ISF [~ivan@187.64.222.221] has joined #lisp 02:30:42 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@c-24-12-190-29.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:34:11 -!- kanru [~kanru@118-163-10-190.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.3.50.2] 02:34:43 -!- ebobby [~fms@199.21.86.106] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:35:02 walter [~walter@c-24-218-217-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:35:04 kanru [~kanru@118-163-10-190.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 02:35:07 ohnoitsavram: maybe http://www.sbcl.org/manual/#Debugger-Policy-Control helps? 02:35:51 -!- kanru [~kanru@118-163-10-190.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:35:53 michaelusa [~yaaic@66-87-69-183.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 02:36:54 -!- walter|r [~walter@c-24-218-217-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:37:18 -!- weie [~eie@softbank221078042071.bbtec.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 02:37:25 kanru [~kanru@118-163-10-190.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 02:37:26 -!- michaelusa [~yaaic@66-87-69-183.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Client Quit] 02:38:04 -!- kanru [~kanru@118-163-10-190.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:42:18 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@186.220.32.235] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 02:43:11 kanru [~kanru@118-163-10-190.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 02:45:10 -!- kanru [~kanru@118-163-10-190.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:47:49 -!- bhyde [~bhyde@c-24-61-81-138.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: bhyde] 02:48:22 bhyde [~bhyde@c-24-61-81-138.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:49:52 -!- bhyde [~bhyde@c-24-61-81-138.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 02:50:24 bhyde [~bhyde@c-24-61-81-138.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:50:26 :kpreid It did help, when I was figuring this stuff out with SBCL ;-) But I was asking about CCL. Thanks anyway 02:50:54 oops! 02:53:19 joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@086.112-30-64.ftth.swbr.surewest.net] has joined #lisp 02:53:21 kanru [~kanru@118-163-10-190.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 02:57:09 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@erudite.anarchism.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 02:57:44 Reset in CCL jargon seems to mean something like "stop executing the thread but don't kill the thread object" so that seems to answer my first question. As for my second question I don't know, but I can't seem to recreate the behavior I get in the SLIME debugger with SBCL using . 02:57:45 CCL 02:59:08 -!- chameco [~samuel@89.sub-70-215-10.myvzw.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 03:00:15 -!- cdidd [~cdidd@93-80-5-182.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:01:03 normanrichards [~normanric@70.114.215.220] has joined #lisp 03:03:59 weie [~eie@softbank221078042071.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 03:04:17 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:07:18 yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.168] has joined #lisp 03:08:11 cadeshack [~mac@host-61-70-191-50.static.kbtelecom.net] has joined #lisp 03:15:10 cdidd [~cdidd@93-80-249-26.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 03:17:23 fisxoj [~fisxoj@c-24-12-190-29.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:18:29 -!- zacts [~user@unaffiliated/zacts] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 03:20:36 adelgado 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-!- Elminster [~Elminster@68.204.15.252] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:47:31 -!- k0001 [~k0001@host214.186-109-110.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:49:07 -!- Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 05:52:37 is there an easy way to have a package automatically export all its symbols? 05:54:58 I would probably use DO-SYMBOLS 05:55:04 prxq [~mommer@mnhm-5f75c873.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 05:56:36 is such a thing generally approved of or frowned upon? 05:56:56 robot-beethoven: it is not a common thing to do. 05:56:58 it's a bit incoherent 05:58:16 Jubb [~Jubb@c-24-5-65-188.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:00:02 gko [~gko@116.59.244.245] has joined #lisp 06:03:52 <|3b|> even if you filtered out symbols imported from other packages, variable and argument names would probably add quite a bit of noise 06:10:29 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@freiksenet.com] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.2] 06:12:52 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-160-148.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 06:13:20 -!- ahungry [~null@99-40-10-216.lightspeed.livnmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 06:13:44 mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has joined #lisp 06:13:44 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has quit [Changing host] 06:13:44 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 06:13:52 dsadsdasd [~Adium@37.157.191.242] has joined #lisp 06:15:14 freiksenet [~freiksene@freiksenet.com] has joined #lisp 06:18:48 k0001 [~k0001@host214.186-109-110.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 06:19:07 Exporting a symbol should probably be viewed as a service contract. 06:20:20 is there a technique to allow two packages, that each :use a common-package, to both customize common-package:*special-variable* (so that all common-package code called from within either uses the appropriate customization)? 06:21:25 -!- Bike [~Glossina@67-5-250-10.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: die] 06:22:30 -!- prxq 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special variable bindings are orthogonal. 06:57:12 cades [~mac@60.245.65.131] has joined #lisp 06:57:34 ck_ [~ck@dslb-146-060-025-037.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 06:59:37 hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has joined #lisp 06:59:37 -!- hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has quit [Changing host] 06:59:37 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 07:03:02 mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.97.149] has joined #lisp 07:04:44 Harag [~Thunderbi@105.228.30.249] has joined #lisp 07:07:51 v [~v@199.68.198.120] has joined #lisp 07:07:52 -!- Jubb [~Jubb@c-24-5-65-188.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:08:27 snearch [~snearch@brln-4dba59f5.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 07:09:44 -!- spacefrogg^ is now known as spacefrogg 07:09:48 angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has joined #lisp 07:10:48 -!- lukas__ [~lukas@194.228.13.29] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 07:11:42 leoc [~leoc.git@p5DDBB184.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 07:12:47 -!- ASau 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jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-192-86.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 10:01:09 -!- youlysses [~user@75-132-7-80.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 10:04:11 rswarbrick [~rswarbric@cpc2-cove3-0-0-cust17.3-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 10:04:16 -!- veer [~veer@pool-108-33-26-144.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 10:04:35 -!- sw2wolf [~czsq888@171.216.155.181] has left #lisp 10:05:07 Hello all! Can anyone point me at a/the statistical profiler for cmucl? I wrote some code that runs surprisingly slowly with cmucl on someone else's machine and I'm trying to work out where the time is spent... 10:05:28 is there a statistical profiler for cmucl_ 10:05:42 Apparently the sbcl one is based on it! :-) 10:05:57 But maybe it faded into the mists of time 10:06:53 why is that someone else still using cmucl? 10:07:04 He's Raymond Toy, for a start... 10:07:15 And secondly, it's testing out some code for Maxima on an ancient sparc machine 10:07:18 well, that explains it 10:07:20 :D 10:09:06 maybe that ancient sparc machine is just too ancient? 10:10:00 Well, maybe. The code is for loading up info files at runtime and I wanted to make sure that people on crappy phones etc. wouldn't be waiting half an hour to see the documentation. rtoy kindly tested it on "the oldest and slowest machine" that he had access to. 10:10:11 Still only took 7 seconds, but that's a tad embarrassing... 10:11:26 you can try running in qemu without virtualization, or with some other slow downs 10:11:56 Heh. Well, I don't really care about the absolute speed for testing. Am currently reading through the profiling section of the cmucl manual. 10:12:01 *stassats`* has sbcl running in qemu on mips, it's painfully slow even just for compiling defuns 10:12:14 Ah I see what you mean 10:12:42 Hmm. If I can't work out what's going on, I might try that 10:13:08 Cymew [~user@fw01d.snowmen.se] has joined #lisp 10:14:27 -!- agumonkey [~agu@8.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has left #lisp 10:16:01 protist [~protist@125-237-130-19.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 10:19:01 youlysses [~user@75-132-7-80.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 10:21:50 nilsi [~nilsi@c83-253-22-138.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 10:22:46 leoncamel1 [~leoncamel@124.126.211.41] has joined #lisp 10:23:15 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:24:56 -!- leoncamel [~leoncamel@1.202.5.29] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 10:27:58 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.96.126] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:28:47 -!- schoppenhauer [~quassel@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:28:49 mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.96.126] has joined #lisp 10:28:55 schoppenhauer [~quassel@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 10:30:25 -!- gko [~gko@116.59.244.245] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:32:00 -!- nialo [~nialo@ool-44c53f01.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:32:30 xecycle [~user@2001:da8:8000:e104:ca0a:a9ff:fe72:7a0d] has joined #lisp 10:33:59 -!- xecycle [~user@2001:da8:8000:e104:ca0a:a9ff:fe72:7a0d] has left #lisp 10:36:36 Hans_ [~weechat@175.140.130.195] has joined #lisp 10:37:10 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@101.175.65.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 10:37:31 -!- Hans_ [~weechat@175.140.130.195] has quit [Client Quit] 10:39:49 Hans_ [~weechat@175.140.130.195] has joined #lisp 10:39:59 rswarbrick: integer multiplication and division are atrociously slow on SPARC, iirc. 10:40:27 -!- bitonic [~user@ppp-232-137.27-151.libero.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:42:00 Ah, that's interesting. Actually, I seem to have at least some hint of a difference between SBCL and CMUCL with the following profiling results: http://paste.lisp.org/display/136470 10:42:26 documentation-matching-topics isn't supposed to take long at all, so something's going screwy. 10:42:48 -!- przl [~przlrkt@46.231.183.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:42:54 -!- leo2007 [~leo@111.161.47.175] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.3.1] 10:43:01 Not sure whether the time taken by the predicate is counting towards d-m-t's runtime. Hopefully not, since that comes from a scarily crufty regex engine... 10:43:29 leo2007 [~leo@111.161.47.175] has joined #lisp 10:45:17 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-192-86.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 10:47:01 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-192-86.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 10:48:24 nan_ [~user@178.233.216.230] has joined #lisp 10:49:17 Crap. It's the regular expression. 10:49:33 there's a backend-subfeature for making integer multiplication and division less atrocious 10:49:37 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-4d003957.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 10:49:43 probably there aren't many sparc-v7s out there any more 10:49:48 (on x86, but with cmucl) 10:50:06 Krystof, That's interesting! I hope never to have to deal with one though :-) 10:51:14 just beautiful http://paste.lisp.org/display/136471, the pain you go through implementing this on another language 10:52:13 -!- cades [~mac@60.245.65.131] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 10:52:40 that is, if you *can* implement 10:53:56 yes, CL allows you to take code obfuscation to the unattainable heights 10:56:04 this is a very popular function used in shading languages 10:56:21 not abusing some CL capability for no gain 10:56:44 Given a macro facility ... it doesn't seem particularly tricky. 10:57:03 -!- Hans_ [~weechat@175.140.130.195] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.0] 10:58:36 that is the point, it is so simple yet it is either not practical or just impossible in say c++ 10:59:10 przl [~przlrkt@46.231.183.162] has joined #lisp 11:00:26 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-192-86.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:01:57 dsadsdasd [~Adium@37.157.191.242] has joined #lisp 11:02:24 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-192-86.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 11:05:31 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-160-148.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 11:07:17 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-70.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 11:07:49 would http://paste.lisp.org/display/136471#1 be the right way of doing it if i wanted to use the quoted version? 11:08:57 why would you want to use a quoted version? 11:10:19 just a bit of a self-documentation, say i just want to do it for the sake of it, would it be the right way? :) 11:10:26 -!- v [~v@static.216.226.4.46.clients.your-server.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:11:19 no, and quoting it in the first place is not the right way 11:11:53 lest there be an impression that swz is a function 11:12:15 -!- dsadsdasd [~Adium@37.157.191.242] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:12:53 what would be the right way then? i don't know how to do multiple evaluation in a macro other than eval. 11:12:55 veer [~veer@pool-108-33-26-144.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 11:13:10 i understand what you mean, i am just playing with it 11:13:31 (cadr spec) 11:14:27 -!- Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:14:39 oh... 11:17:19 got it, thanks stassats` 11:19:01 -!- veer [~veer@pool-108-33-26-144.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 11:19:48 cades [~mac@60.245.65.131] has joined #lisp 11:20:15 veer [~veer@pool-108-33-26-144.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 11:21:36 Joreji [~thomas@77-21-104-59-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 11:22:53 dsadsdasd [~Adium@37.157.191.242] has joined #lisp 11:22:54 -!- akovalenko [~user@77.51.77.195] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:25:18 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 11:27:54 v [~v@61.173.91.86] has joined #lisp 11:31:16 gko [~gko@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 11:32:21 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-192-86.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 11:32:53 -!- youlysses [~user@75-132-7-80.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:34:07 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-192-86.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 11:37:09 -!- przl [~przlrkt@46.231.183.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 11:37:48 -!- veer [~veer@pool-108-33-26-144.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 11:38:02 fantazo [~fantazo@213.129.230.10] has joined #lisp 11:39:37 veer [~veer@pool-108-33-26-144.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 11:39:55 jrajav [~jrajav@71-82-124-223.dhcp.roch.mn.charter.com] has joined #lisp 11:41:10 I am excited at the possibility of mastering macros to build language interpreters....does anyone here have experience with this? 11:41:42 do you have a specific question you want to ask? 11:42:01 sz0 [~user@78.188.55.203] has joined #lisp 11:42:43 macros doesn't really help with interpreting other languages, other than the ease of embedding them into CL code 11:47:26 stassats`: i was thinking along the lines of writing a language purely in macros 11:50:01 Thra11 [~thrall@248.64.125.91.dyn.plus.net] has joined #lisp 11:50:29 stassats`: sorry to be vague...i always have a fear of people implementing my fun little projects before i get a chance to start :) 11:50:47 stassats`: this language would require a minimum of parsing 11:51:21 stassats`: i suppose it wouldn't matter if i used only macros, now that i think about it 11:51:36 stassats`: i can always just parse and interpret like a normal interpreter 11:58:06 eldariof [~CLD@215-134-158-212.static.bluetone.cz] has joined #lisp 12:00:02 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-192-86.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 12:01:44 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-192-86.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 12:02:26 Adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 12:03:01 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.56.85] has 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[~main@c-67-180-22-241.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:08:35 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-192-86.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 13:11:42 -!- veer [~veer@pool-108-33-26-144.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 13:12:20 veer [~veer@pool-108-33-26-144.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:14:17 If anyone was wondering about my CMUCL question from earlier, here's the resulting email: http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.comp.mathematics.maxima.general/41824 13:14:56 The patch is https://sourceforge.net/p/maxima/code/ci/da2f875f24411c9b0dc7785a4472730ccd83815c/ 13:16:46 rswarbrick: On x86[-64]? I guess CMUCL might still have the same calling convention that completely breaks return address prediction (i.e. really pessimises recursive code). 13:16:48 -!- antgreen [~green@dsl-173-206-64-86.tor.primus.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:17:03 Yep, x86. 13:17:39 That's interesting. Frankly, I don't care. If a CMUCL user is annoyed that his/her Maxima is slow, he or she can switch to a different implementation... 13:18:08 (I care that Maxima works; I don't care if it's fast on an implementation I don't care about) 13:18:10 pavelpenev [~quassel@85.130.11.8] has joined #lisp 13:18:48 Er, that was ruder to you than I intended! I mean, this is genuinely interesting but I'm pleased to say that I don't have to investigate CMUCL's slowness further. 13:18:52 sorry! 13:18:53 [6502] [58959a57@gateway/web/freenode/ip.88.149.154.87] has joined #lisp 13:19:15 rswarbrick: I totally understand the sentiment (: I feel the same about nearly everything (: 13:19:42 Phew :-) I read the line I'd just typed and went "eek!"... 13:20:01 mgile [~mgile@74-92-220-177-Colorado.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 13:20:03 <[6502]> Hello. I was reading CLHS "aref" page and found "(setf (apply #'aref beta gamma) 3) => 3" in the examples... how is this implemented? seems magic to me 13:20:21 what is implemented? 13:20:27 in particular 13:20:37 <[6502]> stassats`: (setf (apply ...) x) 13:20:48 stassats`: apply/aref is special cased. 13:20:54 [6502]: even 13:21:10 <[6502]> oh... a special case for apply/aref 13:21:25 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 13:21:27 __main__ [~main@c-67-180-22-241.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:21:35 clhs 5.1.2.5 13:21:35 APPLY Forms as Places: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/05_abe.htm 13:22:13 doesn't look like magic 13:24:17 <[6502]> stassats`: thanks... it makes sense now 13:24:25 <[6502]> stassats`: still weird stuff, imo 13:25:05 drmeister [~drmeister@wirelessNAT188.wireless.temple.edu] has joined #lisp 13:25:36 ogamita` [~t@host.34.193.23.62.rev.coltfrance.com] has joined #lisp 13:26:20 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:26:30 <[6502]> what about (setf (if ...) ..) or (setf (progn .... ) ...) ? :-) 13:26:59 what about using CLHS? 13:27:00 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@wirelessNAT188.wireless.temple.edu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:27:02 clhs 5.1.2 13:27:02 Kinds of Places: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/05_ab.htm 13:27:11 -!- ogamita [~t@LPuteaux-156-15-31-124.w82-127.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 13:27:22 drmeister [~drmeister@wirelessNAT188.wireless.temple.edu] has joined #lisp 13:29:00 -!- dan64 [dan64@dannyadam.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:29:01 patrickwonders [~patrickwo@user-38q42ns.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 13:29:49 Euthy [~euthy@unaffiliated/euthydemus] has joined #lisp 13:30:07 dan64 [dan64@dannyadam.com] has joined #lisp 13:30:08 naryl [~weechat@46.182.24.168] has joined #lisp 13:32:23 -!- knob [~knob@76.76.202.244] has quit 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seconds] 14:53:36 -!- TristamWrk [~tristamwr@bodhilinux/team/Tristam] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:54:10 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@50-196-148-102-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 14:54:29 kpreid [~kpreid@50-196-148-102-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 14:55:04 -!- v [~v@63.223.125.27] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:55:32 CatMtKing [~CatMtKing@mobilenet1-4-157-79.bulk.ucr.edu] has joined #lisp 14:55:36 setf is magic. (defun (setf f) ) is trivial magic. (defsetf ) is more magic (define-setf-expander ) is black magic. 14:55:43 -!- ogamita` is now known as ogamita 14:55:51 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@70.114.215.220] has quit [] 14:56:12 -!- xificurC [xificurC@nat/ibm/x-aihwqxptenorouzo] has quit [Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org] 14:56:35 dsadsdasd [~Adium@37.157.191.242] has joined #lisp 14:56:40 TristamWrk [~tristamwr@bodhilinux/team/Tristam] has joined #lisp 14:56:42 ogamita: too much red wine ? 14:57:09 Every time I find myself teetering beyond 'defsetf' and into 'define-setf-expander', I think of this poem: http://www.poemhunter.com/poem/the-wayfarer-3/ 14:57:31 dnolen [~user@cpe-74-64-32-223.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:58:35 spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 14:58:43 _d3f [~gnu@nl2.ovpn.to] has joined #lisp 14:59:10 drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has joined #lisp 15:01:06 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@freiksenet.com] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.2] 15:01:16 smazga [~acrid@li336-165.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 15:01:35 freiksenet [~freiksene@freiksenet.com] has joined #lisp 15:01:59 mrpat [~jackie@pool-108-36-82-232.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:03:34 -!- dsadsdasd [~Adium@37.157.191.242] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 15:04:55 -!- Keshi [~Keshi@unaffiliated/keshi] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 15:05:49 pfarrell_ [~pfarrell@core-nat.rocket-space.com] has joined #lisp 15:05:57 zfx [~zfx@195.99.195.90] has joined #lisp 15:05:57 -!- zfx [~zfx@195.99.195.90] has quit [Changing host] 15:05:57 zfx [~zfx@unaffiliated/zfx] has joined #lisp 15:07:22 Juanito-Jons [~jreynoso@177.224.214.151] has joined #lisp 15:08:07 ehu [~Erik@31.137.118.103] has joined #lisp 15:08:21 v [~v@61.173.91.86] has joined #lisp 15:08:25 -!- Adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:09:49 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 15:09:52 Quick question: How does CASE compare objects? The clhs says "by identity". Does this mean eq? So (case n (1 "one") (2 "two")) might not work? 15:10:18 rswarbrick: identity is EQL unless otherwise specified in the CLHS. 15:10:24 Ahah! 15:10:33 Thank you - where is that written down? 15:10:42 -!- pavelpenev [~quassel@194.141.47.12] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:11:27 I think I was confused by the glossary under I: "identical adj. the same under eq." 15:12:17 rswarbrick: in most implementations, fixnums will be both eq and eql, but in some they may be eql while not eq. the spec allows this. 15:12:45 ehu: Yes, I realised. Hence my question. So I shouldn't use CASE keyed by integers then? 15:12:56 -!- Kvaks [~kvaks@116.157.189.109.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 15:12:57 rswarbrick: no, you should 15:13:04 (phew) 15:13:12 clhs specifies that case finds a key that is "the same" 15:13:13 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for specifies that case finds a key that is "the same". 15:13:16 rswarbrick: click on "same" in "If the test-key is the same as any key for that clause" 15:13:18 stupid specbot 15:13:21 Kvaks [~kvaks@116.157.189.109.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 15:13:44 -!- breakds [~breakds@ppp-70-226-163-93.dsl.mdsnwi.ameritech.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 15:13:46 Ahah. Clause 2 15:13:49 Thank you very much! 15:18:27 stardiviner [~stardivin@122.236.248.36] has joined #lisp 15:18:35 -!- Guest84626 [~user@139.Red-83-54-100.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 15:20:34 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-192-86.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 15:22:29 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-192-86.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:25:45 antgreen [green@nat/redhat/x-orxasnwokbdycrca] has joined #lisp 15:25:55 clhs glossary/same 15:25:55 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/26_glo_s.htm#same 15:30:33 -!- stardiviner [~stardivin@122.236.248.36] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:30:47 -!- moai [~m@fp-192-52-27-220.mobile.uni-freiburg.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:32:00 -!- veer [~veer@pool-108-33-26-144.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 15:33:19 -!- teggi [~teggi@113.172.54.243] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:33:41 teggi [~teggi@113.172.54.243] has joined #lisp 15:35:22 fihi09 [~user@pool-108-27-93-109.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:35:25 KingNato_ [~isildur@c-e9eee253.012-31-73746f43.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 15:35:51 -!- KingNato [~isildur@c-e9eee253.012-31-73746f43.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:35:51 pavelpenev [~quassel@85.130.11.8] has joined #lisp 15:36:52 -!- bhyde [~bhyde@c-24-61-81-138.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: bhyde] 15:37:10 zophy [ceb02321@gateway/web/freenode/ip.206.176.35.33] has joined #lisp 15:37:30 -!- ahoops [~ahoops__@121.96.14.223] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 15:37:47 -!- leo2007 [~leo@111.161.47.175] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:38:36 leo2007 [~leo@111.161.47.175] has joined #lisp 15:40:02 So is there no standard for the slots of simple-error? That is, no way to do a (make-condition 'simple-error ...) that makes a condition like (error "Some Format Control" ...) 15:40:30 clhs simple-error 15:40:30 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/e_smp_er.htm 15:40:41 clhs simple-condition 15:40:41 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/e_smp_cn.htm 15:40:41 stassats`: already looked at that 15:41:04 (error 'simple-error :format-control "Some Format ~a" :format-arguments '(1)) 15:41:12 -!- am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 15:41:18 stassats`: thanks, I should have looked at simple-condition 15:42:10 cajetanus [~cajetanus@89.174.185.97] has joined #lisp 15:42:12 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-192-86.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:44:01 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-192-86.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:44:30 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-160-148.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:44:50 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-160-148.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 15:46:20 are most Lispers familiar with Doug Hoyte's macros?....if i used them, would people have trouble reading my code? 15:46:31 macros like defmacro! 15:46:42 i would just stop reading code like this 15:47:08 loke_ [~elias@bb119-74-80-38.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 15:48:29 protist: Im confused  are you just asking if using DEFMACRO is ok, or specifically macros like those in L/? 15:49:28 sellout-: specifically the ones in Let Over Lambda .... not `defmacro' ....`defmacro!' 15:49:49 Oh, I see. I parsed the ! as punctuation :D 15:49:53 :D 15:50:31 since topic is macros! i want to call a macro the way apply calls a function, how would i do it? (apply #'some-macro args) 15:50:34 also utility functions like `group'...have most people seen these? 15:51:00 nan_: what's the use-case? 15:51:01 nan_, Generally you can't and/or shouldn't. Can you tell us what you're trying to acheive 15:51:03 nan_: that's a hint that you don't know how macros work 15:51:12 *achieve? 15:51:32 -!- spacefrogg_ [~spacefrog@unaffiliated/spacefrogg] has quit [Quit: spacefrogg_] 15:51:41 sellout-: are the ones from LoL pretty standard to see in code now? 15:51:50 use case is as simple as: (defun fn (&rest args) (apply #'macro args)) 15:51:58 sellout-: would it be considered bad form/unreadable? 15:52:05 -!- spacefrogg is now known as spacefrogg^ 15:52:11 nan_, That's not a use case. That's invalid code. Next level up? 15:52:12 protist: Not at all. I havent read the book, but it doesnt get the highest praise around here. 15:52:23 nan_: that's not a use case, since we don't know what fn or macro do 15:52:25 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 15:52:41 sellout-: sad...they seem useful, at least for their intended purpose 15:52:55 nan_: you can (defmacro macro2 (&rest args) `(macro ,@args)) but that seems stupid 15:53:04 normanrichards [~normanric@rrcs-108-178-120-144.sw.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:53:05 sellout-: what about some of the utility functions that i think Graham uses as well, like `group'? 15:53:32 sellout-: like (group '(1 2 3 4) 2) will give ((1 2)(3 4)) 15:53:36 protist, For me, the anaphoric macros have stuck. The rest, not so much. 15:54:03 rswarbrick: I am not that far in the book, yet :) 15:54:05 And the fact that I find myself writing (group seq 2) means that I've probably got something wrong earlier in the day... 15:54:06 jasom: i am just trying to pass &rest parameter of a function to a macro who takes again &rest parameters, since in both cases &rest is compile time 15:54:12 nan_: the way to call macros as funcall is macroexpand. 15:54:16 or macroexpand-1. 15:54:28 rswarbrick: yeah i think that function is a clever way to cover up sloppy coding 15:54:33 rswarbrick: Anaphora predate L/, but things like IF-LET seem preferable to anaphora to me. 15:54:35 rswarbrick: but still nice for quick hacks 15:54:36 nan_: as in: (macroexpand '(some-macro arg)) 15:54:52 nan_: macros are run at macroexpansion time, functions are run at run-time 15:54:59 sellout-, Well, to be honest I've only glanced at let over lambda. I have however read "On Lisp" 15:55:33 nan_: I think you don't want to be using a macro 15:55:43 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-160-148.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:55:50 -!- zophy [ceb02321@gateway/web/freenode/ip.206.176.35.33] has quit [Quit: oh tidy me oh my spring cleaning] 15:55:52 nan_, What stassats` is saying is the point. Try and work out what you want to happen in words ("The compiler transforms this to... then when I run this happens... ") you'll probably see that a macro isn't going to work 15:56:09 nan_: now, you may want to have fun calling the macro function itself directly: (funcall (macro-function 'some-macro) '(some-macro arg) nil), but macroexpand can pass the environment while you cannot, so for macrolet it would make a difference. 15:56:15 stassats`: i know that i am talking about &rest paramters of both, i think i got it wrong as i thought both exapanded at compile time (again &rest parameters) 15:56:22 nan_: what is the desired behavior?...what problem are you trying to solve? 15:56:50 nan_: functions don't run until run-time 15:56:50 i ll post the code, just a min 15:57:24 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@213.129.230.10] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:57:32 rswarbrick: You might want to look at IF-LET/WHEN-LET in http://common-lisp.net/project/alexandria/draft/alexandria.html#Data-and-Control-Flow  they are  cataphoric(?) macros 15:57:36 stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-008-236.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 15:57:49 macros are used for source code transformation, which, naturally, happens before the functions are run 15:57:59 you can't know the value of rest before you run the function 15:58:07 But it may occur at runtime, notably in developer tools. 15:58:24 macroexpansion. 15:58:27 rswarbrick: i kind of wonder if defmacro! is unintentionally shadowing SYMS, OS, and GS 15:58:29 sellout-, Ah that's neat. I can see it being useful for argument parsing or the like 15:58:38 protist, me?? 15:58:50 (defun foo (&rest r) ...) (apply #'foo (loop for i = (read) while i collect i)) <-- obviously the "rest" can't be expanded at compile time there 15:58:55 -!- ineiros_ [~itniemin@bayesianconspiracy.org] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:59:03 rswarbrick: it seems Hoyte should be careful to not shadow symbols in his own macro for making macros 15:59:12 rswarbrick: yeah, you :) 16:00:09 Ah, well yes. But maybe he'd reply that avoiding doing so would obscure what he was trying to show? I haven't got the definition on hand here. 16:00:27 Yes, the pedagogical excuse. 16:00:40 ogamita, Well, he's writing a textbook not a code library 16:01:00 rswarbrick: yeah i think it would obscure it...i have other ideas for improvement, as well 16:01:12 dsadsdasd [~Adium@37.157.191.242] has joined #lisp 16:01:24 i know how to do what i am trying to achieve another way, but not like this: http://paste.lisp.org/display/136473 16:01:59 The answer is to make FN a macro. 16:02:14 rswarbrick: FN? 16:02:28 protist, In nan_'s code. 16:02:31 rswarbrick: ah 16:02:43 nan_: that's not how macros work 16:02:46 aajmakin [aajmakin@kosh.org.aalto.fi] has joined #lisp 16:03:11 przl [~przlrkt@46.231.183.162] has joined #lisp 16:03:22 nan_: You really don' want to use vreduce* as-is 16:03:31 nan_: It looks like VREDUCE* should be a function, and you should `funcall fn` and `apply inner-fn`. 16:03:40 nan_: it should probably be a function 16:03:45 yes stassats` i know that, i said i am trying to do something *like* that 16:04:03 ineiros [~itniemin@bayesianconspiracy.org] has joined #lisp 16:04:06 -!- dsadsdasd [~Adium@37.157.191.242] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:04:07 nan_: also imagine what would happen if one of the args is named "k" 16:04:35 nan_, As I might have said a minute ago. If you really want to do that, make FN a macro with body something like `(vreduce ,arg1 ,arg2 ,@rest) 16:04:37 nan_: that macro should almost definitely be a function....and you do have variable shadowing problems 16:05:23 (but, as the others have pointed out, you don't) 16:05:44 -!- DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:06:45 rswarbrick: oh i guess he wants a macro to avoid having to #' things? 16:07:01 protist: That is a pretty bad reason. 16:07:05 this is just for learning purposes and nothing more, i wanted to see if i could splice &rest arguments of a function to a macro that is it :) 16:07:18 sellout-: only reason i can think of, but yes...not a great one 16:07:25 Especially since #' is a good way of saying the function +, rather than some variable +. 16:07:27 DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has joined #lisp 16:07:49 nan_: you are going to cause youself problems if you write macros that way 16:07:51 nan_: what you should learn here is "never use a macro when a function can do the job" 16:08:02 -!- axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-88-224.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 16:08:09 breakds [~breakds@wifi-116.cs.wisc.edu] has joined #lisp 16:08:19 axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-88-224.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:10:14 bitonic [~user@ppp-232-137.27-151.libero.it] has joined #lisp 16:10:29 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:10:32 especially, never use a macro, when you can't use it 16:12:14 newb question: What's a text book case of something a function can't do that you need a macro for? Functions can't define functions? 16:12:22 now i got no idea how you guys become experts on lisp without trying anything by just reading and always doing the right things :) 16:12:31 adelgado: functions can define functions 16:12:31 adelgado: bind variables 16:12:50 adelgado: if you want to make a new control structure 16:12:52 adelgado: see any macro starting with "with-*" for an example 16:13:04 adelgado: like (for i in LIST .... 16:13:05 adelgado: also, choose whether or not to evaluate their arguments 16:13:19 With QUOTE and EVAL functions can do everything macros do. 16:13:37 naryl, No. The function can't get an argument unevaluated. 16:13:42 -!- cajetanus [~cajetanus@89.174.185.97] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi] 16:13:48 rswarbrick: yep 16:13:49 Yes, you can quote it on call side. 16:13:59 *sigh* 16:14:01 :P 16:14:02 naryl: but then you aren't doing what the macro does 16:14:12 adelgado: you can't write an IF function which would look like (if condition then else) 16:14:26 It would look like (if 'condition 'then 'else) 16:14:28 but you can write (if condition (lambda () then) (lambda () else) 16:14:33 or that. 16:15:14 Vicfred [~Futaba@187.206.41.231] has joined #lisp 16:15:23 stassats`: and you've got javascript! 16:16:51 ah, hah. I just discovered I have an S3 bucket full of all the lisps that autobench built (mostly SBCL, but some ECL and CMUCL revisions). any interest among boinkmarks folks here? lichtblau, Krystof? (: 16:18:24 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-171-162.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 16:18:47 new question #2: What's the payoff of binding variables via a macro vs. (let )? 16:18:51 ^b 16:19:07 you seem to be confused 16:19:46 jasom 12:12 16:19:46 adelgado: bind variables 16:19:51 macros are source transformation, they do not perform any actions beside that 16:19:58 transformations 16:20:08 ellusioner [ellusioner@c-2c1ee755.05-23-6c6b7013.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 16:20:28 adelgado: stassats` is right, but let me show you an example of what I was talking about 16:20:28 stassats`: sure, but wasn't your text book example of when to use a macro binding variables? 16:20:35 adelgado: such a macro would expand into LET 16:20:59 -!- thomas_yzj [~user@175.0.170.4] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:21:12 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-192-86.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:21:40 -!- mgile [~mgile@74-92-220-177-Colorado.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Parting is such sweet sorrow...] 16:22:20 -!- pfarrell_ [~pfarrell@core-nat.rocket-space.com] has quit [Quit: pfarrell_] 16:22:23 nan_: http://paste.lisp.org/display/136473#2 16:22:49 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-192-86.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:23:24 fmeyer [~fmeyer@200-150-182-201.static-corp.ajato.com.br] has joined #lisp 16:23:37 -!- GOMADWarrior [~Regis@187.65.192.206] has left #lisp 16:23:54 stassats`: My question was clumsy, but I guess the right question answers itself. 16:24:27 sdemarre [~serge@112.177-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 16:24:31 adelgado: is that an aphorism? 16:24:37 adelgado: because i like it, a lot 16:25:14 protist: don't think so, but it could something internalized from some other source 16:25:17 ^be 16:25:30 ah 16:26:24 cajetanus [~cajetanus@public-gprs340008.centertel.pl] has joined #lisp 16:27:01 http://paste.lisp.org/display/136477 16:27:01 So if I'm following, I'd have a macro like with-database-connection and I'd pass it functions like select-foo and it'd be the macro's job to set up the database connection and run select-foo? 16:27:26 adelgado: that's a simplified implementation of with-open-file, and an example of how you could sort-of do it with functions 16:27:55 -!- przl [~przlrkt@46.231.183.162] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:28:06 clhs with-open-stream 16:28:06 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_w_op_1.htm 16:29:17 So I guess the inevitable question is what makes the with-open-file1 more appropriate than with-open-file2 ? 16:29:39 if you can't answer it yourself, no one can answer it for you 16:30:33 -!- cajetanus [~cajetanus@public-gprs340008.centertel.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:30:49 Does the function version require that you pass the function wrapped in a lambda? 16:31:13 adelgado: you don't need a function for the macro version at all 16:31:26 adelgado: and the function version requires that you pass in a function taking one argument, which is the stream 16:31:36 eldariof [~CLD@215-134-158-212.static.bluetone.cz] has joined #lisp 16:32:07 ahoops [~ahoops__@121.96.14.223] has joined #lisp 16:32:22 (with-open-file1 (s "foo") (read s) (read s) (read s)) would be fine, but you'd have to do (with-open-file2 '("foo") (lambda (s) (read s) (read s) (read s))) 16:32:41 So the code being passed into the macro is in the scope of what the macro expands to instead of just being a function getting called by another function? 16:32:58 Bike [~Glossina@67-5-250-10.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 16:34:19 adelgado: that's close 16:34:36 adelgado: a macro just is a way of generating code at compile time 16:35:02 adelgado: that has all sorts of implications and you've touched on one of them 16:35:26 -!- sz0 [~user@78.188.55.203] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:35:36 I should hunt down the other implications :) 16:35:54 -!- smazga [~acrid@li336-165.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:35:58 mattrepl [~mattrepl@SSID-MASON-SECURE-216.wireless.gmu.edu] has joined #lisp 16:36:06 -!- sdemarre [~serge@112.177-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:36:07 Thanks for the example. It helped. 16:36:22 Another implication is that if a macro doesn't do what it says it does (so either poorly named, or buggy) then you will pull your hair out trying to figure out what's going wrong 16:36:39 ASau [~user@46.115.43.245] has joined #lisp 16:36:59 -!- lifeng [~lifeng@61.190.86.12] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 16:37:57 -!- arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-xuvizfbhspkmdspi] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:38:06 functions show up in backtraces, macros (naturally) don't 16:38:19 though inlined functions don't either, so that's only one part of it 16:38:46 -!- ehu [~Erik@31.137.118.103] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 16:38:47 -!- lduros` [~user@pool-108-52-158-66.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 16:40:32 adelgado: another issue that comes up is when the code you generate has symbols that might conflict with symbols in the user's code. Look at nan_'s paste and imagine if one of the arguments passed into it were named 'k or 'i 16:41:04 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 16:42:13 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@c-24-12-190-29.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:43:41 right, if I don't do something like name my variables _foo (is there a lispy convention?) then it's possible that someone will pass in code that uses the same variable name and there'd be unexpected results 16:43:55 Bike_ [~Glossina@67-5-250-10.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 16:44:16 xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.167.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 16:44:17 -!- Bike [~Glossina@67-5-250-10.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:44:27 adelgado: But then it will break if somebody uses your macro twice. 16:44:48 (with-open-file1 (s1 "foo") (with-open-file1 (s2 "bar") ...)) 16:45:04 adelgado, There's an idiom to work around the problem using gensym. 16:45:06 clhs gensym 16:45:07 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_gensym.htm 16:45:09 It's not accepted to beat them for that? 16:45:15 whois gensym 16:45:45 naryl, Nope, specbot doesn't understand reverse DNS :-) (Look at the link above) 16:46:14 IRC understands. 16:46:16 [gensym] (~timo@85.158.178.76): Timo Grodzinski 16:47:06 rDNS rocks 16:47:18 it's such a shame I have a cloak 16:47:23 ok, so generate unique variable names when creating a macro 16:47:23 But not for avoiding variable capture... 16:47:33 Ah, back to the subject. Yep! 16:48:33 Since people bind gensyms a lot when writing macros (which is boring), the Alexandria convenience library has a macro called WITH-GENSYMS (see http://common-lisp.net/project/alexandria/draft/alexandria.html#Macro-Writing) 16:50:11 -!- Bike_ is now known as Bike 16:50:23 i find binding gensyms manually easier than remember which flavor of with-gensyms you are using 16:50:28 remembering 16:50:52 Or convincing some project to which you wish to contribute that they want to pull in yet another support library. 16:51:00 (I agree) 16:51:40 would be cool if there was a summary of all the systems in quicklisp such as: stability (alpha, beta, mature, ...), comparisons between similar systems, etc... 16:52:01 gko: yes, it would be 16:52:09 gko: would you do that? 16:53:12 gko: it would be super-awesome 16:53:17 too many systems... or maybe: if you want to do that, choose system X. 16:53:19 hlavaty [~user@friedrichstrasse.knowledgetools.de] has joined #lisp 16:53:38 I use too few of them. 16:53:54 gko, Ah, but so does everybody else... 16:54:24 I'd like to make it easy for people to contribute informed opinions about a given library to some permanent record somewhere. 16:54:37 So much to do, and so little time! 16:55:20 quickdocs.org is a good start with the download stats. 16:55:41 Xach: that sounds like a job for usenet 16:55:44 -!- _d3f [~gnu@nl2.ovpn.to] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.0] 16:55:56 jasom: I don't think so. 16:56:50 Xach: Some web-based stuff? 16:56:59 Xach: Should be trivial to build. 16:57:09 maybe there could be some comments that visitors could add for each system. 16:57:15 Xach: what would be different about "easy to contribute informed opinions" and 16:57:19 (can you tell I really like the idea and want to see it happen? :-) ) 16:57:45 dtm` [~dtm@adsl-69-110-0-28.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 16:57:54 jasom: Usenet is not easy, not informed, not easily searched, and not permanent. 16:58:08 But otherwise perfect! 16:58:11 cliki 16:58:20 Are you guys thinking of something like this: https://addons.mozilla.org/en-us/firefox/extensions/ 16:58:37 Xach: touche; but nobody has found a way to filter out uninformed opinions for a reasonable cost 16:59:05 -!- loke_ [~elias@bb119-74-80-38.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:59:49 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-192-86.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:59:55 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-99-183-240-66.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:00:14 adelgado: Something like that, yeah. 17:01:32 dsadsdasd [~Adium@37.157.191.242] has joined #lisp 17:01:39 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-192-86.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:01:49 Unfortunately, that site cripples itself if you're not surfing it on firefox. 17:03:00 -!- dsadsdasd [~Adium@37.157.191.242] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:06:23 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-171-162.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:06:52 veer [~veer@pool-108-33-26-144.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:07:16 _d3f [~gnu@nl2.ovpn.to] has joined #lisp 17:07:39 fisxoj [~fisxoj@c-24-12-190-29.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:10:04 I'll make sure to degrade the appearance of my site for Clojure users. 17:10:10 :( 17:11:54 -!- ck_ [~ck@dslb-146-060-025-037.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:12:11 i am having difficulty using cl-ppcre 17:12:31 i have tried to bring it in with (require :cl-ppcre) ...but it doesn't find it 17:12:46 That's a problem with asdf / quicklisp not with cl-ppcre 17:12:50 i just installed cl-ppcre, is there something i should know? 17:12:56 protist: How did you install it? 17:13:06 Xach: sudo yum install cl-ppcre 17:13:12 yeah no 17:13:12 uh oh 17:13:16 ? 17:13:27 protist: don't install cl libraries through your distro's package manager. 17:13:34 if you do, don't expect much support here. 17:13:37 sykopomp, Don't be ridiculous 17:13:41 protist: I'm afraid I don't know how you are meant to load libraries that are fetched via yum, sorry. 17:13:51 protist, Have you restarted the lisp image? 17:13:54 Xach: the 'permenent record' thing is something I have in mind actually .... for the cl-net distro of quicklisp... coming soon! 17:13:54 rswarbrick: It's not a ridiculous position. 17:13:57 well tell me the proper way, and i will try again :) 17:14:06 minion: please tell protist about Quicklisp 17:14:06 protist: please see Quicklisp: Quicklisp is an easy to use package manager for CL. For more information see http://www.quicklisp.org/beta/ 17:14:15 -!- teggi [~teggi@113.172.54.243] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:15:03 just don't forget to remove any other libraries you installed with different methods 17:15:25 Xach, I disagree. Maybe refusing to support debian/fedora/whatever here is reasonable, but telling people not to use a carefully packaged library is crazy. 17:15:25 -!- spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:15:25 Xach: I'm sure this has come up before, but is there a way (current or future) to do virtualenv-style installation isolation using quicklisp? 17:15:38 1) delete everything your implemetation installed 17:15:49 rswarbrick: the premise "carefully packaged library" is wrong 17:15:53 -!- bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.127.74] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 17:15:58 stassats`, Ah, sorry. I run debian. 17:16:00 rswarbrick: what library are you referring to? 17:16:06 rswarbrick: I have yet to see an implementation get cl packaging right 17:16:08 drewc, See the above conversation. 17:16:12 stassats`: I have been running debian since '96 17:16:19 rswarbrick: ^ 17:16:20 drewc: i just did sudo yum remove cl-ppcre 17:16:23 -!- banjara [~Adium@unaffiliated/banjara] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:16:29 drewc: and not reading back log since that time too? 17:16:34 (sorry stassats`!) 17:16:41 rswarbrick: Debian has not historically done a very good job at packaging CL libraries. Maybe it's better now? 17:16:48 protist, Well, that's kind of depressing. I suspect that everything would have worked if you'd forced ASDF to refresh its cache. 17:17:17 sykopomp: What's virtualenv do? 17:17:20 Xach, It's switched to massively limiting its scope. What is packaged seems to work extremely well. What isn't, I install via quicklisp or by hand. I see no problem here. 17:17:31 rswarbrick: so i use asdf like (require :asdf-install) (asdf-install:install :cl-ppcre) ? 17:17:37 NO 17:17:38 oh common 17:17:54 protist, Nope. If you wish to use quicklisp, I'm sure the others will help. 17:18:05 from the frying pan into the fire 17:18:25 bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.127.74] has joined #lisp 17:18:37 Xach: it sets up isolated python(-lang) environments, letting you use a single stable binary at a specific version, and install only the libraries you need for that particular project, without affecting the rest of your system. It makes it very easy to "use" a particular environment before running a python project, and lets you carry the environment around if you have to, or dump the requirement list with 17:18:39 versions. 17:18:53 (load "quicklisp.lisp") (ql:quickload :cl-ppcre) ? 17:18:57 it's very nice for developing apps without worrying about contaminating other work. 17:19:08 zfx- [~zfx@195.99.195.90] has joined #lisp 17:19:12 stassats`, I disagree. The distro package manager is maybe swaddling bands. quicklisp is maybe secondary school. And asdf-install is... (CENSORED) 17:19:12 *drewc* scrolls back, and sees nothing of importance, and if folks want to use past libraries because their distro knows more about lisp then /we/ do, well ... at least it is worth a laugh. 17:19:32 protist: can you read what's written on the quicklisp site? 17:19:33 -!- ISF [~ivan@187.64.222.221] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:19:40 stassats`: starting to now 17:19:44 has anybody used postmodern with hstore? It seems to treat hstore fields like strings, how hard would it be to add support to turn them into plists or something like that? 17:19:45 sykopomp: ah, i do that quite a bit for my own projects, but it's somewhat ad hoc, and limited to the libraries, not the implementation. 17:20:08 smazga [~acrid@64.55.45.194] has joined #lisp 17:20:24 Xach: how do you set up your quicklisp stuff to do that? 17:20:26 sykopomp: it would be possible given the current metadata to export enough to bundle up an environment pretty easily. 17:20:55 drewc, Look, I'm not going to spend hours discussing this on IRC. But: A distro might want to provide a stable platform, with libraries that definitely all work together. It probably wants to do complicated things like installing in /usr not /home/joebloggs/somewhere. Some distributions provide support when things break. 17:20:56 sykopomp: i have a project-specific quicklisp directory and wire it into e.g. buildapp 17:21:22 rswarbrick: yup, sure, uh huh. 17:21:24 bhyde [~bhyde@c-24-61-81-138.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:21:27 (By complicated, I mean: "For the love of God, how can you call it a distribution if you can't do that") 17:21:40 sykopomp: with a specific dist version url fetched instead of the latest 17:21:48 hi is there something like non-recursive macrolet? 17:21:57 non-recursive? 17:22:14 sykopomp: http://article.gmane.org/gmane.lisp.lispworks.general/12135 has a tiny bit of info 17:22:21 Xach: thanks a bunch! :) 17:22:59 I need to add support for loading metadata and project archives from file URLs so you could just zip or tar up a thing and then use it as your local dist 17:23:15 or put it on a local web server et voila 17:23:15 -!- zfx [~zfx@unaffiliated/zfx] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:23:25 that'd be awesome 17:23:25 Again...so much to do, so little time... 17:23:38 we're really grateful, as you probably already know :) 17:23:44 -!- zfx- [~zfx@195.99.195.90] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:23:53 -!- Vicfred [~Futaba@187.206.41.231] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:23:58 Bike: yeah, macrolet is expanded recursively 17:24:02 I've heard encouraging things from my employer about working on Quicklisp improvement tasks. 17:24:17 But they aren't in the very short term picture 17:24:42 hlavaty: i'm failing to understand you 17:24:44 i would like it to expand once only and then if it expands to it's name again the name should have the meaning before the macrolet 17:24:57 (defmethod foo () (foo super)) -> (defmethod foo () (call-next-method)) 17:25:08 -!- veer [~veer@pool-108-33-26-144.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:25:17 (defmethod foo () (foo 1 2)) -> (defmethod foo () (foo 1 2)) 17:25:21 ebobby [~fms@199.21.86.106] has joined #lisp 17:26:03 just syntax, the example is not so good otherwise 17:26:19 don't use the same name for different macros then 17:26:53 yeah, but it's not that i wrote that code, but i want it to compile into common lisp 17:27:12 and not changing all those places in the original code 17:27:13 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-192-86.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:27:26 oh...i think i got it all working 17:27:30 thank you everyone :) 17:27:34 banjara [~Adium@unaffiliated/banjara] has joined #lisp 17:27:40 i am still quite new to Lisp 17:28:28 hlavaty: why not? i'd find query and replace much easier than what you want to do 17:28:40 stardiviner [~stardivin@122.236.248.36] has joined #lisp 17:28:40 veer [~veer@pool-108-33-26-144.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:28:55 stassats`: i was hoping it was possible using cl constructs 17:29:09 hlavaty: so, you want a completely different language where macros and functions have the same name and macroexpand does not work? and what do you mean by expanded recursively exactly, and how does it not work for what you need? 17:29:19 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-192-86.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:29:45 drewc: hlavaty wants to have macros defined as expanding once and then reestablishing the outer macroexpansion environment within themselves 17:30:14 drewc: no different language, only transform the "self-calls" to call-next-method, otherwise exactly the same 17:30:30 compiler macros?... 17:30:32 i think there's possibly a better way to do whatever you're thinking 17:30:34 self-calls with the first arg eq 'super 17:30:52 sykopomp: they can be just ignored 17:31:24 hlavaty, In case you're interested, there is a CAS called Maxima that had to solve a problem a bit like this. Basically, it had to distinguish between two forms of a mathematical function either integrate as a verb "integrate(sin(x), x)" or as a noun "integrate(f(x), x)" where f unknown. The solution chosen is a naming convention where the verb is called $integrate and the noun is called %integrate. Obviously, this is mostly invisible in the 17:31:25 UI. Maybe you're trying to solve a similar problem? 17:32:26 Bike: that makes sense... I guess. 17:32:43 Basically, why not have (defmethod foo () (foo super)) => (defmethod foo () (%foo super)) or the like 17:32:58 rswarbrick: not sure, the original language has a convention that (foo super...) means (call-next-method...) 17:33:08 hlavaty: so, a different language where recursion works save for methods in which it is not recursion but call-next-method? 17:33:45 hlavaty: why not just have (foo super ...) expand differently into some call-next-methods 17:33:49 Er, sorry the last line I wrote was sill. 17:33:54 silly. 17:33:56 drewc: only for the special case where the first arg is named super 17:33:59 What Bike said seems sensible 17:34:28 (Although I have no idea why anyone would want to do this...) 17:34:50 toekutr [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 17:34:52 -!- toekutr [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:35:04 you mean the compiler-macros? 17:35:10 i have to look it up 17:35:14 no 17:35:20 just have foo super defined specially 17:35:28 compiler macros have nothing to do with this 17:35:31 ok 17:35:44 how would i define it specially? 17:35:59 hlavaty: that is a special case indeed ... so you want a completely different language that also has generic functions? because, (defmethod foo () (foo super)) ... well that is an error ... 17:36:03 sambio [~sambio@190.57.227.109] has joined #lisp 17:36:03 -!- sambio [~sambio@190.57.227.109] has quit [Changing host] 17:36:03 sambio [~sambio@unaffiliated/sambio] has joined #lisp 17:36:11 Uh, just like, (defmacro foo (arg &rest args) (if (eq arg 'super) ...)) 17:37:08 Bike: exactly 17:37:16 i was too brief in the example 17:37:16 ehaliewicz [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 17:37:27 hlavaty: have you tried expanding into (funcall 'foo 1 2 3)? 17:37:41 ah 17:38:38 *drewc* is now very confused, and cannot see what will not work with M-S-% (foo super) (call-next-method) :) 17:39:06 -!- mrpat [~jackie@pool-108-36-82-232.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:40:00 killerboy [~mateusz@195.225.68.249] has joined #lisp 17:40:47 Bike: uhm not exactly 17:41:18 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:41:32 more like (defmethod foo (&rest args) (macrolet ((foo (x &rest args) (if (eq x 'super) ...))... 17:41:50 (defun y (x) (1+ x)) (macrolet ((y (x) (if (eq x 'super) "call-next-method" `(funcall 'y ,x)))) (list (y 1) (y super))) => (2 "call-next-method") 17:43:00 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-192-86.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:43:25 hmm, i need to think it through, the funcall suggestion might be the way to go 17:44:47 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-192-86.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:45:29 stassats`: i think it works, thanks! 17:46:07 basically avoiding the recursive macrolet expansion through funcall in the first position 17:51:25 caveat: having a macrolet will prevent from doing (apply #'foo ...) 17:51:30 or any kind of #'foo 17:51:36 -!- axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-88-224.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:52:44 -!- weie [~eie@softbank221078042071.bbtec.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 17:53:03 -!- veer [~veer@pool-108-33-26-144.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:53:24 spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 17:53:52 veer [~veer@pool-108-33-26-144.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:54:12 stassats`: yeah, but i dont think it's an issue in my case, thanks a lot! 17:55:49 -!- cades [~mac@host-61-70-191-50.static.kbtelecom.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 17:57:55 mrpat [~jackie@pool-108-36-82-232.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:58:49 axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-88-224.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:59:47 hmm, but it doesn't play well with setf :-{ 18:00:23 it should, except for (setf (call-next-method) ..) 18:01:20 no, setf only works with apply and #' 18:01:51 dsadsdasd [~Adium@37.157.191.242] has joined #lisp 18:04:12 kiuma [~kiuma@2-230-138-74.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 18:04:27 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-192-86.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:06:16 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-192-86.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 18:06:36 -!- dsadsdasd [~Adium@37.157.191.242] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 18:08:51 well, you can expand into wrapper FLETs instead then 18:08:57 -!- antgreen [green@nat/redhat/x-orxasnwokbdycrca] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:15:20 i think i would need to also define a local setf expander 18:15:32 which doesnt seem to be possible 18:15:32 can't define a local one 18:15:46 but, define-setf-expander takes precedence over macros 18:16:04 so, you can define-setf-expander which expands into (funcall #'(setf foo) ...) 18:16:48 -!- stardiviner [~stardivin@122.236.248.36] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:17:21 ohhh! flet and apply symbol! <> in https://raw.github.com/drewc/smug/master/doc/monparsing.org 18:17:54 -!- anaumov [~an@opensuse/member/Alexander-Naumov] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:17:56 or even just defsetf 18:18:18 anaumov [~an@niobe.agnitas.de] has joined #lisp 18:19:23 sz0 [~user@188.58.1.237] has joined #lisp 18:19:37 Bruntgrunt [~Bruntgrun@212.255.227.80] has joined #lisp 18:19:37 zfx [~zfx@host86-166-90-163.range86-166.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 18:19:53 i'll try that 18:19:58 -!- Bruntgrunt [~Bruntgrun@212.255.227.80] has left #lisp 18:20:09 and you have to define it only if defmethod is done on (setf foo) 18:20:11 (flet (((setf foo) (value) (break "~A" value))) (setf (foo) 1)) ? 18:20:38 (defsetf foo (&rest args) (value) `(funcall #'(setf foo) ,value ,@args)) 18:20:46 drewc: macros take precedence over functions 18:21:01 oh, of course. 18:21:03 my bad 18:21:14 and defsetf takes precedence over macros 18:21:21 -!- anaumov [~an@niobe.agnitas.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:21:40 ehu [~ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 18:21:44 anaumov [~an@bane.agnitas.de] has joined #lisp 18:23:30 -!- v [~v@61.173.91.86] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:23:49 v [~v@61.173.91.86] has joined #lisp 18:24:06 -!- zfx [~zfx@host86-166-90-163.range86-166.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:24:29 -!- joe9 [~user@c-71-236-20-61.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:24:56 -!- sz0 [~user@188.58.1.237] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:27:09 joe9 [~user@c-71-236-20-61.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:27:17 drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has joined #lisp 18:28:24 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-192-86.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:29:47 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-192-86.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 18:31:53 -!- protist [~protist@125-237-130-19.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 18:33:07 cdidd [~cdidd@95-28-11-75.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 18:33:22 slyrus [~chatzilla@173-228-44-92.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 18:35:44 -!- joe9 [~user@c-71-236-20-61.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:41:27 cic_ [~connolly@Catnip.AI.SRI.COM] has joined #lisp 18:41:41 joe9 [~user@c-71-236-20-61.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:41:56 -!- cic [~connolly@Catnip.AI.SRI.COM] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:42:55 -!- spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:43:26 antgreen [~green@out-on-170.wireless.telus.com] has joined #lisp 18:44:19 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:44:56 mm0 [~Matt@cpe-108-182-29-196.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:45:07 whats a good intro site for lisp? 18:45:27 mm0: http://gigamonkeys.com/book 18:45:28 minion: tell mm0 about pcl 18:45:29 mm0: look at pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 18:45:33 mm0: http://cliki.net/ 18:45:44 ty 18:45:47 AFAIK, there's no reference to cliki.net in pcl, but there are references to pcl in cliki.net 18:45:57 So the intro would rather be cliki.net. 18:46:35 what kind of software do you guys typically use lisp for 18:46:51 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-187-175.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 18:47:19 mm0: drawing silly pictures 18:47:26 the type that I write 18:47:35 haha 18:47:48 mm0: what drewc said 18:48:46 ikki [~ikki@177.224.214.151] has joined #lisp 18:49:29 thanks 18:49:38 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:49:58 "... please don't assume Lisp is only useful for Animation and Graphics, AI, bioinformatics, B2B, and E-Commerce, Data Mining, EDA/Semiconductor applications, Expert Systems, Finance, Intelligent Agents, Knowledge Management, Mechanical CAD, Modeling and Simulation, Natural Language, Optimization, Research, Risk Analysis, Scheduling, Telecom, and Web Authoring just because these are the only things they happened to list." --Kent Pitman 18:50:25 yes? 18:50:27 turing complete language is turing complete. :) 18:50:49 I don't think anybody cares much about turing completeness 18:50:49 Fade: and yet I still think the people that write win32 apps in assembly are crazy 18:50:53 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 18:51:02 or p-nand-q.com would have so much more success 18:51:02 Fade: heh ... that is the language that I was taught in grade school! :) 18:51:19 :) 18:51:28 -!- veer [~veer@pool-108-33-26-144.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:52:30 *drewc* remembers first learning BASIC on the PET and Apple II, but was not taught it via school :) 18:53:21 Denommus [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/denommus] has joined #lisp 18:54:06 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:54:44 Fade: lol. I see Xtreme was the only display of his sense of humour. 18:54:55 veer [~veer@pool-108-33-26-144.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:56:16 -!- gendl [~gendl@c-98-250-10-50.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has left #lisp 18:56:58 -!- rswarbrick [~rswarbric@host-57-71.warwick.ac.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:59:10 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 18:59:53 killerbo1 [~mateusz@195.225.68.249] has joined #lisp 18:59:53 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@195.225.68.249] has quit [Disconnected by services] 19:00:06 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-192-86.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:01:26 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-192-86.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:01:35 -!- killerbo1 is now known as killerboy 19:02:11 dsadsdasd [~Adium@37.157.191.242] has joined #lisp 19:04:37 mm0: web apps mostly, but I've played around with 2d games, gui apps, shell scripts, and a half-assed pdf organization tool. 19:07:53 *was not 19:14:34 zfx 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[~mattrepl@SSID-MASON-SECURE-216.wireless.gmu.edu] has joined #lisp 20:00:54 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-192-86.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:02:51 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-192-86.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 20:03:14 antgreen [green@nat/redhat/x-klhoywtldsoqkafw] has joined #lisp 20:03:17 -!- anonus [~user@citadel.niflheim.info] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:05:26 -!- leoc [~leoc.git@p5DDBB184.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:07:06 -!- davorb [davor@mer.df.lth.se] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:09:09 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:10:57 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@SSID-MASON-SECURE-216.wireless.gmu.edu] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 20:12:21 mattrepl [~mattrepl@SSID-MASON-SECURE-216.wireless.gmu.edu] has joined #lisp 20:12:24 -!- ebobby [~fms@199.21.86.106] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:13:37 stardiviner [~stardivin@122.236.248.36] has joined #lisp 20:13:52 drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has joined #lisp 20:13:52 masondesu [~textual@71-12-31-114.static.spbg.sc.charter.com] has joined #lisp 20:15:39 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 20:16:33 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-136-87-38.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:16:37 I'm implementing SUBSEQ for VECTORs and if I call it on a VECTOR with a fill-pointer can I return a VECTOR without a fill pointer or does the resulting vector also have to have a fill pointer? The CLHS doesn't seem to say anything on this so I think I can return a simple vector without a fill-pointer. 20:18:36 kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-76-55.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 20:18:39 it does say 20:18:49 "If sequence is a vector, the result is a fresh simple array of rank one that has the same actual array element type as sequence." 20:19:15 -!- masondesu [~textual@71-12-31-114.static.spbg.sc.charter.com] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com] 20:19:54 -!- veer [~veer@pool-108-33-26-144.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:20:41 foom: So it's ok to drop the fill pointer? 20:21:02 Right - "fresh simple array" I guess that's all there is to it - thanks. 20:22:22 -!- slava_ [~slava@li32-38.members.linode.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:22:22 -!- jrockway [jrockway@itchy.jrock.us] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:22:22 -!- tychoish [~tychoish@foucault.cyborginstitute.net] has quit [Write error: Broken 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-!- tychoish [~tychoish@foucault.cyborginstitute.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 20:26:17 SUNDAY, MARCH 31, 2013 20:26:35 er my hand hit the middle mouse button, ignore that 20:26:43 tychoish [~tychoish@foucault.cyborginstitute.net] has joined #lisp 20:26:43 :) 20:26:45 -!- tychoish [~tychoish@foucault.cyborginstitute.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 20:28:54 -!- erikc [~erikc@209.20.28.194] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:29:25 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-192-86.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:29:32 `arrdem [~user@resnet-45-187.dorm.utexas.edu] has joined #lisp 20:30:02 -!- ubii [~ubii@unaffiliated/ubii] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:30:53 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@SSID-MASON-SECURE-216.wireless.gmu.edu] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 20:31:13 -!- leo2007 [~leo@111.161.47.175] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.3.1] 20:31:20 -!- dioxirane [~dioxirane@unaffiliated/dioxirane] has left #lisp 20:31:32 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-192-86.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has 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[Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:15:18 symaxian [~symaxian@76.177.44.86] has joined #lisp 21:16:54 How would I convert from using (read *terminal-io* nil) to reading a file, using (read (open "filename") nil) doesn't read it in the same way, it keeps reading the first atom and does not advance 21:17:23 symaxian: reading from terminal io only reads one thing too. 21:17:58 -!- zophy [ceb02321@gateway/web/freenode/ip.206.176.35.33] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:18:08 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 21:18:47 That's not how it appears to be functioning 21:19:52 (read *terminal-io* nil); hello there => HELLO 21:20:43 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 21:20:56 DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@123.208.44.202] has joined #lisp 21:21:30 Oh yes it's called in a a recursive function, and appears to then read the next atom, however reading from a file does not advance after multiple reads 21:21:46 Oh, because you're opening the file anew each time. 21:21:52 Which is bad anyway, since you'll never close them. 21:21:56 Ah 21:22:06 clhs with-open-file 21:22:06 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_w_open.htm 21:22:08 Use that. 21:22:10 Makes sense now... 21:22:33 thanks 21:23:01 am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has joined #lisp 21:24:09 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-5f75c873.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:24:30 fisxoj [~fisxoj@c-24-12-190-29.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:24:44 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:24:54 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@200-150-182-201.static-corp.ajato.com.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:25:20 -!- Joreji [~thomas@77-21-104-59-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:30:32 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@123.208.44.202] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 21:32:05 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@92.47.225.238] has joined #lisp 21:32:05 -!- 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joined #lisp 21:47:41 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@63.97.102.250] has quit [] 21:48:33 I have something along the lines of (let (stream file) (doStuff) (close stream) ); but how can I return the result of (doStuff) rather than (close stream)? 21:51:00 symaxian: you could use with-open-file. 21:53:00 cool, thanks 21:53:58 drmeister [~drmeister@166.137.107.111] has joined #lisp 21:56:39 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 22:00:23 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@166.137.107.111] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:02:18 -!- zxq9 [~zxq9@FL1-119-244-167-168.okn.mesh.ad.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:02:35 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:03:50 -!- luis changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language . New: CFFI 0.11.1, Hunchentoot 1.2.17, SBCL 1.1.6, DRAKMA-1.3.1, CHUNGA-1.1.5, Babel 0.4.0, trivial-garbage 0.20 22:08:38 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-70.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:09:04 -!- stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-008-236.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 22:10:39 -!- EvW [~Thunderbi@a82-92-190-215.adsl.xs4all.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 22:12:18 Czechton [~Czechton@cpc8-lewi14-2-0-cust162.2-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 22:15:06 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:16:39 EvW [~Thunderbi@a82-92-190-215.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 22:16:53 jack_rabbit [~kyle@c-98-253-60-75.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:17:20 -!- snearch [~snearch@brln-4dba59f5.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:17:33 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 22:19:28 -!- adelgado [~TomSawyer@65.23.61.98.nw.nuvox.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:23:14 antgreen [~green@dsl-173-206-64-86.tor.primus.ca] has joined #lisp 22:26:54 rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 22:29:35 -!- ehaliewicz [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:30:42 -!- Adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:31:29 -!- smazga [~acrid@64.55.45.194] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.1.1] 22:33:17 -!- bhyde [~bhyde@c-24-61-81-138.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: bhyde] 22:33:21 -!- nilsi [~nilsi@c83-253-22-138.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:33:24 -!- nha [~prefect@koln-5d815e00.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:33:56 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 22:34:33 tenawa [~user@c-98-201-84-250.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:35:20 -!- spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:37:02 bhyde [~bhyde@c-24-61-81-138.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:37:47 i simply can't write the nested backquote version of this simple macro: (defmacro def-alias (old-name new-name) 22:37:47 `(defmacro ,new-name (&rest args) 22:37:47 (cons ',old-name args))) 22:38:36 -!- bananagram [~bot@c-98-198-236-112.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Rated M for MANLY] 22:38:47 bananagram [~bot@c-98-198-236-112.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:40:02 mrpat [~jackie@pool-108-36-82-232.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:40:37 `(,',old-name ,@args) 22:43:26 pkhuong: that is it! thanks alot, i tried `(,,'old-name ,@args) `(,,old-name ,@args) and a few more combinations but seems i didn't grasp the nested backquote rules 22:49:52 -!- ahoops [~ahoops__@121.96.14.223] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 22:50:48 -!- `arrdem [~user@resnet-45-187.dorm.utexas.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:51:54 when in doubt don't use the syntax sugar. 23:00:22 `arrdem [~user@resnet-45-187.dorm.utexas.edu] has joined #lisp 23:00:54 -!- ehu [~ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:04:36 -!- fasta [~xchat@xs8.xs4all.nl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:04:47 fasta [~xchat@xs8.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 23:05:17 -!- Hydan [~hydan@ip-89-103-110-116.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:06:50 normanrichards [~normanric@rrcs-108-178-120-144.sw.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:06:58 I just ran into something weird - in ECL, the one direct superclass of STRING is # and the two direct superclasses of BASE-STRING are STRING _and_ VECTOR. Why would BASE-STRING inherit from VECTOR directly and STRING indirectly? 23:07:22 (clos:class-direct-superclasses (find-class 'string)) --> (#) 23:07:38 (clos:class-direct-superclasses (find-class 'base-string)) --> (# #) 23:07:51 that's the order they're specified to have, first of all 23:08:08 -!- am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has quit [Quit: Segmentation Fault] 23:08:36 well, wait, what do you mean, that says base-string is a direct subclass of string near as i can tell. 23:09:08 Yes, I believe that is true. 23:09:31 SBCL doesn't do this STRING inherits from VECTOR and BASE-STRING inherits only from STRING 23:09:54 -!- Corvidium [~cosman246@24.56.241.224] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:11:02 nilsi [~nilsi@c83-253-22-138.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 23:11:04 -!- nilsi [~nilsi@c83-253-22-138.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:11:22 nilsi [~nilsi@c83-253-22-138.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 23:11:23 ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.186] has joined #lisp 23:12:06 Here are the direct SUB-class relationships within ECL (clos:class-direct-subclasses (find-class 'string)) --> (#) 23:12:37 (# # 23:12:37 #) 23:12:50 (clos:class-direct-subclasses (find-class 'vector)) --> ^^^ THE ABOVE ^^^ 23:12:55 so what's the problem here exactly 23:14:28 nialo [nialo@ool-44c53f01.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 23:14:45 Henesy [~h3n3sy@adsl-75-23-118-193.dsl.peoril.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:15:15 Is it ok for BASE-STRING to be the direct subclass of STRING (which is a direct subclass of VECTOR) _and_ VECTOR? Shouldn't it just be a direct subclass of STRING and inherit VECTOR through STRING? Or does it matter? 23:15:32 Why would it? 23:15:44 -!- antgreen [~green@dsl-173-206-64-86.tor.primus.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:15:56 -!- stopbit [~stopbit@108-166-97-185.static.cloud-ips.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:16:11 stopbit [~stopbit@198.178.121.206] has joined #lisp 23:16:19 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 23:17:07 Why would it matter? I'm guessing it doesn't but when I saw it I thought there might be some deeper consequences that I don't appreciate yet. 23:17:11 drmeister: FWIW in the standard BASE-STRING isn't a class 23:17:37 jasom: It becomes a class in CLOS doesn't it? 23:17:50 drmeister: nope, STRING is a class, base-string is a type 23:18:15 it is non portable to e.g. (defmethod foo ((x base-string))) 23:19:54 -!- segv- [~mb@f052065030.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:20:39 I see, in the CLHS BASE-STRING is a "Type" - in ECL it gets added to the class hierarchy. 23:21:34 What do you mean by: "it is non portable to e.g. (defmethod foo ((x base-string)))" 23:21:51 since base-string doesn't have to be a class, you can't specialize methods on it. 23:22:04 Ah. 23:22:32 drmeister: an example of why it is important that it need not be a class 23:22:43 -!- Thra11 [~thrall@248.64.125.91.dyn.plus.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:23:03 IIRC base-string isn't a class in either sbcl or ccl 23:23:35 *jasom* can't remember which of those it is, but trying that defmethod is how I learned BASE-STRING is not a class 23:23:40 it is in sbcl 23:24:10 jasom: I just checked SBCL --> (find-class 'base-string) --> # 23:24:23 it is one in ccl too 23:24:25 how mysterious. 23:24:55 -!- impulse [~impulse@bas3-toronto48-1176314458.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:25:28 It's not a big deal - I'm just trying to make my implementation completely identical to ECL from the point of view of the ECL-CL code. That means I have to mimic what appears to be non-standard behavior. 23:25:52 it's nonstandard but perfectly allowed 23:26:05 aha it's clisp 23:26:20 I hardly use clisp anymore so didn't think it was that one 23:26:23 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@c-24-12-190-29.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:27:41 And in the ECL code, when the class hierarchy is set up BASE-STRING is given the direct superclasses (STRING VECTOR) and STRING is given the direct superclasses (VECTOR) - and that's just redundant, it doesn't have any functional significance - correct? 23:28:03 erikc [~erikc@CPE00222d53fe78-CM00222d53fe75.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 23:28:34 as long as the CPLs are the same I don't think there's any difference without using MOP 23:28:46 drmeister: base-string is a subtype of string, and base-string is subtype of (vector base-character). It's the intersection of strings whose characters are only base-char. 23:29:20 drmeister: base-char and extended-char are subtypes of character. string = (vector character) 23:29:48 not quite 23:30:02 Yes, I may be wrong, types are messy. 23:30:16 string is the union of all (vector x) where x is a subtype of character 23:30:24 which is quite messy, but there you go 23:30:46 -!- nightfly__ [~sage@sagenite.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 23:31:18 Which is why (vector nil) is a string 23:32:28 And base-string just needs to store arbitrary sequences of standard-char (the fixed set of 96 characters) - so a byte string is a decent representation right? Base-string(s) are not useful for unicode characters. 23:32:58 drmeister: well, you can have standard-char < base-char, it's not necessarily standard-char = base-char. 23:32:59 arbitrary sequences of base-chars, which include the standard-chars 23:33:02 but yeah you can do that. 23:33:09 you could also do like abcl and have base-char = character 23:33:36 drmeister: often, base-char = the iso-8859-1 character set, while standard-char = the ascii character set. 23:34:11 And indeed, sometimes base-char = character = the unicode "character set", in as much as such a thing exists. 23:34:13 *jasom* thought standard-char was *exactly* the chars listed in the spec 23:34:17 clhs standard-char 23:34:17 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/t_std_ch.htm 23:34:37 jasom: yes, and they are exactly the characters in the us-ascii character set! :-) 23:34:43 pjb: oh 23:34:55 But CL doesn't specify an encoding. 23:35:03 nightfly__ [~sage@sagenite.net] has joined #lisp 23:35:17 pjb: ascii has more than 96 characters 23:35:18 Only some constraints on the order of some ranges of character codes. 23:35:23 jasom: nope. 23:36:05 oh are there exactly 32 nonprinting control characters? 23:36:11 There are 128 ascii codes, but only 95 characters. 23:36:18 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@rrcs-108-178-120-144.sw.biz.rr.com] has quit [] 23:36:23 Nope, there are 33 nonprinting control characters. 23:36:34 0-31 and 127. 23:36:39 -!- Denommus [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/denommus] has quit [Quit: going home] 23:36:41 oh, right. 23:37:00 Ok, I got it. I'm off to add BASE-STRING 23:37:16 *jasom* thought vtab and form-feed and such were part of ascii; learn something new every day 23:37:23 Well, so I was a tad wrong, since CL defines one more character, that is not in the ascii character set: #\Newline. But happily, it's a character that can find an encoding in ASCII. 23:37:57 jasom: they are part of the ASCII coding system, not part of the ASCII character set. 23:38:31 the ASCII coding system let you encode both control codes and characters. 23:38:54 I would call them ascii characters, but not ascii graphemes 23:39:08 For example, if you want to start the device 1, you can use the control code DC1. 23:39:19 but I suppose that's a fine semantic point 23:39:43 particularly since the ascii standard refers to 0-31 as "control characters" 23:40:22 Well, in 1969, terminology was a little vague. 23:41:27 And LSD didn't help having a clear mind either. 23:41:44 -!- tenawa [~user@c-98-201-84-250.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:43:09 fmeyer [~fmeyer@186.220.32.235] has joined #lisp 23:44:08 tenawa [~user@c-98-201-84-250.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:44:24 -!- ellusioner [ellusioner@c-2c1ee755.05-23-6c6b7013.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: Hihi] 23:45:00 -!- bananagram [~bot@c-98-198-236-112.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Rated M for MANLY] 23:45:12 bananagram [~bot@c-98-198-236-112.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:45:23 -!- mrpat [~jackie@pool-108-36-82-232.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 23:54:47 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-70.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:58:53 sw2wolf [~czsq888@222.209.240.237] has joined #lisp