00:03:19 joekarma [~joekarma@70-36-57-169.dyn.novuscom.net] has joined #lisp 00:08:52 -!- CatMtKing [~CatMtKing@mobilenet1-4-158-95.bulk.ucr.edu] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 00:10:25 lduros` [~user@pool-108-52-158-66.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:11:27 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:13:40 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@186.220.32.235] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 00:14:31 -!- xani [~user@178.183.158.179.dsl.dynamic.t-mobile.pl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:16:06 kvda [~kvda@unaffiliated/kvda] has joined #lisp 00:19:50 fmeyer [~fmeyer@186.220.32.235] has joined #lisp 00:23:32 guaqua` [gua@hilla.kapsi.fi] has joined #lisp 00:24:32 adelgado [~TomSawyer@c-66-229-185-165.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:24:42 -!- joshe [~joshe@opal.elsasser.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:26:30 -!- Borbus [borbus@85.17.58.106] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:26:30 -!- jeekl [~crz@unaffiliated/jeekl] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:26:50 Borbus [borbus@85.17.58.106] has joined #lisp 00:27:29 -!- guaqua [gua@hilla.kapsi.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:27:34 does kmr-git in quicklisp/quicklisp-projects/.../source.txt mean the source is http://files.b9.com/... ? 00:27:43 -!- joekarma [~joekarma@70-36-57-169.dyn.novuscom.net] has quit [Quit: joekarma] 00:27:49 jeekl [~crz@unaffiliated/jeekl] has joined #lisp 00:29:33 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@186.220.32.235] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:30:01 -!- michaelusa [~yaaic@66-87-71-83.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Quit: bye] 00:35:59 it translates into... 00:36:47 http://git.b9.com/~A.git 00:37:42 Xach: tx  git://git.b9.com/... doesn't work, but I suspect you knew that 00:37:44 -!- Vicfred [~Futaba@187.206.119.1] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:39:30 -!- knob12112 [~knob@66.50.1.179] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:42:49 mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-71-163-43-88.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:46:19 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 00:46:36 yeah 00:46:40 tis busted long time 00:46:51 -!- ed_g [~quassel@71-214-117-174.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.] 00:52:00 fmeyer [~fmeyer@186.220.32.235] has joined #lisp 00:55:47 -!- gko [~user@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 00:56:11 So I'm learning Clojure at the moment, and I'm wondering if you guys know if there are any plans to implement CL-style restarts at any point. I've found a project on github that claims to do the job. 00:56:26 *Xach* does not follow clojure development 00:57:39 Well reading the channel topic, I guess #lisp is focused on CL. 00:57:56 jack_rabbit: see #clojure 00:58:01 Cool. 00:58:52 -!- v__ [~v@61.170.241.44] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 00:59:11 -!- ipmonger [~IPmonger@c-68-81-244-69.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ipmonger] 01:01:37 -!- spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:03:14 rme [~rme@50.43.190.179] has joined #lisp 01:06:29 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-71-163-43-88.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 01:07:41 mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-71-163-43-88.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:07:44 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-71-163-43-88.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 01:09:55 bhyde: you set *print-case* to :downcase? 01:10:39 i usually do, but in this case I think it's the default in ccl  i'd have to check to be sure 01:11:15 the spec says the initial value should be :upcase 01:11:22 It is not the default. 01:11:48 Double-check your init file? (~/ccl-init.lisp or ~/.ccl-init.lisp) 01:12:34 v__ [~v@61.170.242.197] has joined #lisp 01:13:12 -!- Denommus [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/denommus] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:14:42 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@186.220.32.235] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 01:15:21 ha, my slime init arranges to set swank:*default-worker-thread-bindings* so that floats are double and print-case is downcase  boy has that code been there a long time! 01:15:50 -!- SeanTAllen [uid4855@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-rdpbvgdcwmyeahzs] has quit [] 01:17:56 -!- dented42 [~dented42@opengroove.org] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in] 01:18:05 so you all would advocate that anytime i want to invoke clsql's compute-effective-slot-definition the users should return *print-case to it's default hm 01:18:33 dented42 [~dented42@opengroove.org] has joined #lisp 01:18:37 I'm not sure about that, but. 01:19:12 i hear ya 01:19:58 *bhyde* dislikes having my REPL shouting at me :) 01:21:09 natechan [~natechan@c-71-56-124-186.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:25:53 -!- bananagram [~bot@c-98-198-236-112.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Rated M for MANLY] 01:26:04 bananagram [~bot@c-98-198-236-112.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:27:09 Jubb [~Jubb@pool-108-28-62-61.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:27:16 sw2wolf [~czsq888@118.112.68.152] has joined #lisp 01:29:24 Denommus [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/denommus] has joined #lisp 01:32:17 ahungry [~null@99-40-10-216.lightspeed.livnmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:32:41 ahoops [~ahoops__@121.96.14.223] has joined #lisp 01:33:02 -!- cdidd [~cdidd@128-68-26-87.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:33:26 -!- kvda [~kvda@unaffiliated/kvda] has quit [Quit: z____z] 01:35:45 DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@101.175.65.1] has joined #lisp 01:36:14 -!- v__ [~v@61.170.242.197] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 01:40:49 -!- dotemacs [uid801@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-nqceunchmspfphdb] has quit [] 01:41:39 -!- PuffTheMagic [uid3325@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-dycqgiriheqshumr] has quit [] 01:42:18 -!- adelgado [~TomSawyer@c-66-229-185-165.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:42:30 adelgado [~TomSawyer@c-66-229-185-165.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:45:53 Czechton [~Czechton@cpc8-lewi14-2-0-cust162.2-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 01:47:34 -!- Czechton_ [~Czechton@cpc8-lewi14-2-0-cust162.2-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 01:47:51 v__ [~v@199.68.198.120] has joined #lisp 01:58:02 arrsim [~user@mail.fitness2live.com.au] has joined #lisp 01:58:17 mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-71-163-43-88.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:59:21 -!- ikki [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/ikki] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:02:27 leo2007 [~leo@111.161.47.175] has joined #lisp 02:06:30 -!- Denommus [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/denommus] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:07:15 Are there any rules or standards for indenting or breaking long strings to e.g. format? 02:09:09 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-71-163-43-88.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 02:10:33 ohnoitsavram: ~ can be handy for that 02:10:49 i use that for long control strings when needed 02:11:30 cdidd [~cdidd@95-28-37-208.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 02:14:22 Whats tripping me up is that I want to break my string litera in my program text (source code) with a new line to avoid going over my buffers 80 character width. But in doing so I introduce a newline into the format string. Since the string literal begins with some indentation this looks ugly when actually printed by format. 02:15:12 mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-71-163-43-88.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:15:25 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-71-163-43-88.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 02:15:27 pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has joined #lisp 02:15:53 Oh, a literal. 02:15:59 catmtking [~catmtking@108-224-122-111.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:17:09 ohnoitsavram: Mmmm, it sounds to me like ~ will still do what you want, no? 02:18:07 Xach: Unrelated but I just want to say really inspirational work on the open source Common Lisp "graphics stack" with ZPNG, Vecto, Salza and ZPB-TTF 02:18:41 for format strings I usually use the ~ Xach mentioned, for literals I usually either let the buffer wrap or accept the newlines (a major example is docstrings where I welcome the newlines) 02:18:53 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-187-176.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:20:25 I have started using semantic linefeeds in docstrings, since most doc formatters strip them out or process them as Markdown. 02:20:36 nydel [~nydel@ip72-197-245-1.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 02:22:55 -!- lduros` [~user@pool-108-52-158-66.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:22:58 I think this better explains my question: http://paste.lisp.org/+2X83 02:23:24 -!- toekutr [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:24:27 right that's what Xach answered initially, toss a tilde on the end of each line in the format string 02:25:07 -!- rme [~rme@50.43.190.179] has left #lisp 02:25:52 -!- bhyde [~bhyde@c-24-61-81-138.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: bhyde] 02:25:54 that just answers how to make the breaks work, not whether to tab it. 02:26:11 -!- _tca [~user@h151.25.91.207.static.ip.windstream.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:26:47 Vivitron: I see I see, putting a ~ before breaking the string literal makes format ignore that break. 02:28:28 It'll also ignore any whitespace afterwards, I think, so you can indent. 02:28:28 -!- adelgado [~TomSawyer@c-66-229-185-165.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:29:25 -!- b1rkh0ff [~b1rkh0ff@46.36.167.250] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 02:29:49 Bike: yeah, without a : modifier it does, I think I usually tab it but wouldn't if tabbing made it into many lines 02:30:28 -!- erikc [~erikc@CPE00222d53fe78-CM00222d53fe75.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Quit: erikc] 02:31:22 I thought when Xach wrote that was a control token, not a substitute for a newline character. Hence my confusion. 02:32:23 -!- pavelpenev [~quassel@85-130-11-8.2073813645.shumen.cablebg.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:33:52 -!- ISF_ec09 [~ivan@187.64.222.221] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 02:38:27 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 02:40:37 toekutr [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 02:42:41 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@50-196-148-102-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 02:43:01 kpreid [~kpreid@50-196-148-102-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 02:43:54 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:46:13 am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has joined #lisp 02:46:31 joshe [~joshe@opal.elsasser.org] has joined #lisp 02:47:33 normanrichards [~normanric@70.114.215.220] has joined #lisp 02:49:04 drmeister: http://community.schemewiki.org/?Tiny-CLOS might provider clearer insight into MOP. 02:51:16 ISF_ec09 [~ivan@187.64.222.221] has joined #lisp 02:55:23 -!- joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@mail.concordusapps.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 02:59:23 -!- Dalek_Baldwin [~Adium@108-225-26-178.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:02:32 -!- nydel [~nydel@ip72-197-245-1.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Quit: quit] 03:03:00 -!- ebobby [~fms@199.21.86.106] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 03:10:26 -!- paddymahoney [~paddymaho@198-84-186-52.cpe.teksavvy.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:12:30 -!- Czechton [~Czechton@cpc8-lewi14-2-0-cust162.2-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:15:02 Dalek_Baldwin [~Adium@71-84-34-33.dhcp.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has joined #lisp 03:15:55 springz [~springz@123.151.195.1] has joined #lisp 03:24:18 sykopomp [~sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 03:26:57 ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@c-71-198-45-0.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:26:57 -!- ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@c-71-198-45-0.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 03:26:57 ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 03:27:01 kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 03:33:14 leoncamel [~leoncamel@124.126.218.38] has joined #lisp 03:35:01 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@91-157-48-10.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:37:53 -!- ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 03:39:05 peterhil [~peterhil@91-157-48-10.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 03:39:33 -!- agumonkey [~agu@8.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:43:33 -!- springz [~springz@123.151.195.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 03:48:10 cddr [user@2a01:7e00::f03c:91ff:feae:b02b] has joined #lisp 03:48:32 sambio_ [~sambio@190.57.227.109] has joined #lisp 03:50:58 ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 03:51:08 -!- sambio [~sambio@190.57.227.109] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 03:51:41 -!- cddr [user@2a01:7e00::f03c:91ff:feae:b02b] has left #lisp 03:51:47 cddr [user@2a01:7e00::f03c:91ff:feae:b02b] has joined #lisp 03:52:41 -!- tensorpudding [~tensorpud@99.148.199.124] has quit [Quit: ZNC - 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How do I get a generic function given the function symbol? 05:44:56 ensure-generic-function, which is actually CL. or just symbol-function! 05:45:22 I'm trying to get all the methods associated with specializer-direct-methods. 05:46:12 Ok, (symbol-function 'clos:specializer-direct-methods) -> # 05:46:21 -!- catmtking [~catmtking@108-224-122-111.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:47:34 Sadly: (si:generic-function-p (symbol-function 'clos:specializer-direct-methods)) -> nil 05:48:26 so there are no methods associated with it, how convenient for you 05:49:19 (ensure-generic-function 'clos:specializer-direct-methods) -> SIMPLE-PROGRAM-ERROR - The symbol SPECIALIZER-DIRECT-METHODS is bound to an ordinary function and is not a valid name for a generic function 05:50:13 So it's not a generic function? AMOP says it should be and my code is trying to lookup methods for it. Hmm. 05:50:54 specializer-direct-methods is supposed to be generic, yes. If this is your implementaiton you may want to fix that. 05:51:42 It's ECL that gave the results above. And I'm using the ECL source so I should generate the same results. 05:51:52 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 05:53:56 The thing is there is no defmethod or defgeneric for specializer-direct-methods - it's defined as an accessor for "direct-methods" of something within a list that is used at bootstrap time to setup accessors. I don't see how it even knows its supposed to be a generic function. 05:54:24 Oh, class accessor functions are generic. 05:54:43 (defclass foo () ((bar :accessor foo-bar))), (typep #'foo-bar 'generic-function) => T 05:55:57 v__ [~v@61.173.108.241] has joined #lisp 05:56:02 In ECL: (typep #'clos:specializer-direct-methods 'generic-function) --> nil 05:56:04 CampinSam [~user@24-176-103-21.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has joined #lisp 05:56:14 I'll try SBCL 05:56:47 it is generic in sbcl. 05:57:09 Yup: (typep #'sb-mop:specializer-direct-methods 'generic-function) -> T 05:57:20 It's possible ECL's MOP is incomplete. specializer-direct-methods probably isn't commonly used, anyway. 05:57:28 Curious - what's going on in ECL? 05:57:36 What? 05:58:04 Well it is trying to use SPECIALIZER-DIRECT-METHODS in the CLOS fixup.lsp file. 05:58:17 The newest ECL(just git pull) even canot use QuickLisp ?! 05:58:44 drmeister: Use it as a function or defining methods on it? 05:58:45 (typep #'clos:specializer-direct-methods 'generic-function) => T in CLISP 06:00:26 leo2007 [~leo@111.161.47.175] has joined #lisp 06:00:58 ECL error: http://paste.lisp.org/display/136372 06:01:02 madrik [~user@122.168.218.248] has joined #lisp 06:01:28 Maybe try burning the fasls and retrying. 06:02:00 Bike: It's a little hard to tell. I'm still working on booting CLOS and when my code is trying to load 'fixup.lsp' it dies when trying to call SPECIALIZER-DIRECT-METHODS on # 06:03:00 That could work even if s-d-m is a normal function. 06:03:05 ECL is still not stable enough. 06:03:53 CLISP is stable as a rock :) 06:04:01 I appear to have gotten past the bug that I was asking about earlier today. I fixed my EVAL-WITH-ENV so that if *CODE-WALKER* is set to a function it calls that function on every form evaluated. The code-walking is necessary to figure out if the method-lambda contained a closure. 06:05:19 drmeister: why do you borrow code from ECL not CLISP ? 06:05:35 Bike: It's failing when it tries to compute-applicable-methods 06:06:11 Of itself? 06:06:23 sw2wolf: ECL is based on C and compiles to C and so I figured it would be the easiest implementation to get running on a new C++ kernel. 06:07:22 Bike: I'm not sure - I'm trying to figure out what is going on. 06:08:51 drmeister: what does your C++ kernel do to replace the functions already in ECL ? 06:08:54 snowylike [~sn@91-67-171-156-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 06:09:43 Hold on - SPECIALIZER-DIRECT-METHODS is behaving like a generic function - it's entering the restricted_compute_applicable_method C function and invoking funcall(std_compute_applicable_methods,gf,arglist) 06:10:10 -!- leb [~leb@c-24-7-83-224.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leb] 06:10:12 Sorry, I know this sounds like gobblygook from your end. 06:10:25 it's reasonably easy to guess, i think. 06:10:52 pierpa [~user@host64-198-dynamic.211-62-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 06:12:13 Here's the ECL C code for restricted_compute_applicable_method: http://pastebin.com/vLZSKGrd 06:13:22 More relevant - here is my version of that function: http://pastebin.com/32fYjrGR 06:14:33 The eval::funcall(_sym_std_compute_applicable_methods,igf,arglist) is returning methods->isNil()=T and so its trying to call no-applicable-method (which I assume is an error function and which isn't defined yet - its at the bottom of fixup.lsp). 06:14:43 Actually, what does NO-APPLICABLE-METHOD do? 06:14:59 Yeah, it errors out. 06:15:10 Signals an error, though it's a gf so users can specialize it. 06:15:42 At this point no-applicable-method should not be invoked. 06:15:56 So the ECL code just returns #'no-applicable-method instead of (compute-effective-method ...) if there are no methods. 06:16:35 This is why I was trying to dig out the methods that ECL has for SPECIALIZER-DIRECT-METHODS and the tests you suggested were telling us it wasn't a generic function. wahhhh? 06:17:09 I'm not sure I understand what s-d-m has to do with either of these pastes. 06:19:18 Here's my backtrace for the problem: http://pastebin.com/UNVEtZUC - it's complaining that NO-APPLICABLE-METHOD could not be found but what triggers that is the call to SPECIALIZER-DIRECT-METHODS at the bottom of the backtrace. 06:19:58 -!- CampinSam [~user@24-176-103-21.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 06:19:59 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:20:11 mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has joined #lisp 06:20:11 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has quit [Changing host] 06:20:11 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 06:21:22 Hmmm, something is wrong with that backtrace as well - I live in a house of cards - frame 35 is messed up and frame 34 shows a call to specializer-direct-methods. 06:21:52 So... does (specializer-direct-methods (find-class 'std-class)) work? 06:22:04 Or whatever class it's trying in the frame there. 06:24:17 After figuring out what package everything is in: http://pastebin.com/3FxGyZAh - yes, I get methods back. 06:24:27 This is what ECL gives me. 06:25:37 So that's not the problem. 06:26:51 I do it in my implementation and it throws an error. I think I'll to a rebuild from the ground up overnight and try again tomorrow. I can put print statements into the CL source code and compare what ECL is doing vs what my implementation is doing. 06:28:03 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-192-76.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 06:28:44 sw2wolf: I write C++ functions/classes/methods that mimic all of the low-level capabilities that ECL provides. I'm not copying ECL code, my implementation is completely different so it's not a fork of ECL. 06:30:50 -!- paddymahoney [~paddymaho@198-84-186-52.cpe.teksavvy.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:31:54 When a let form is evaluated with an interned symbol that's not declared special, is it meant to create a new symbol object and lexically bind that? 06:32:23 ohnoitsavram: symbols are created by the reader. 06:32:26 My previous understanding was that when the reader encounters a symbol that has been interned, that it uses that, that it doesn't create a new symbol object 06:32:53 -!- dnolen [~user@cpe-74-64-61-245.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:32:56 but as this paste http://paste.lisp.org/+2X86 shows, that's not the case? 06:32:59 Note that symbols are variable names, not variables. 06:33:05 drmeister: that is interesting 06:33:10 Although in the case of specials they do double duty. 06:33:34 ohnoitsavram: eval doesn't use the local lexical environment. 06:34:08 ohnoitsavram: also you're confusing interning (something you do to symbols) and binding (something you do to variables) 06:34:35 ohnoitsavram: in order to determine whether a symbol has been interned, you can use FIND-SYMBOL 06:34:59 drmeister: that C code from ECL actually looks pretty nice. 06:35:10 ohnoitsavram: also you just found (eval *test-symbol*) => 1, and of course (eq 'x 1) => NIL 06:35:14 drmeister: how is it for performance? 06:36:17 brucem: I don't know about the performance, but it's not compiler generated if that's what you are asking - it's hand coded. 06:36:26 I'm off to bed folks - thanks for your help! 06:36:48 Bike: If I do (eq x *test-symbol*) I get the same thing. The eval was an oversight 06:37:23 ohnoitsavram: OK, well x => 0 in that let, and (eq 0 'x) is also false. 06:37:38 drmeister: good night 06:37:55 ohnoitsavram: (eq x *test-symbol*) compares the value of x with the value of *test-symbol*, not the equivalence of the symbols 06:38:05 You are correct :D 06:38:19 (eq 'x *test-symbol*) evaluates to true! 06:39:03 So the reason why (eval *test-symbol*) and x evaluate to different things is because as :Bike said, eval doesn't use the lexical environment? 06:39:40 Yes, so (eval *test-symbol*) uses the global environment, in which x is a dynamic variable with a value of 1. 06:40:30 I didn't use defparameter, defvar or declare it as special, is it still dynamic? I thought it was just a plain global 06:41:02 CL doesn't have lexical globals. symbol-value is the global dynamic value. 06:41:56 But if its dynamic why isn't the let treating it as such i.e. pushing a new dynamic binding on the stack 06:42:54 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@70.114.215.220] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:43:39 Because variables bound with let are lexical unless the variable is declared dynamic, either in that binding, a higher binding, or globally. Since you didn't use defvar or defparameter it is not so declared. 06:44:40 kiuma [~kiuma@static-217-133-17-91.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 06:44:55 Yeah that was my understanding. But you still call that a dynamic variable? 06:45:32 It might be misleading of me to say so, but (setf symbol-value) alters the "value cell", and the glossary says the value cell is dynamic. 06:46:49 Glossary says "The object contained in the value cell of a bound symbol is the value of the global varaible named by that symbol..." 06:47:05 Where global variable is a dynamic variable or a constant variable 06:47:12 right. 06:47:12 -!- am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 06:47:28 A dynamic variable is a variable the binding for which is in the dynamic environment 06:47:41 But is my variable x in the dynamic environment? I never declared it as such 06:47:46 isn't it just in the global environment? 06:47:59 *sw2wolf* maybe it is easy to understand symbol to regard it as Memory Address ? 06:48:23 ohnoitsavram: the global dynamic environment 06:49:20 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.56.207] has joined #lisp 06:49:20 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.56.207] has quit [Changing host] 06:49:20 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 06:50:01 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-192-76.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 06:50:15 ohnoitsavram: in day-to-day programming, it is best to ignore value cells and symbol-value and consider all variables not defined with defvar or defparameter to be lexically bound. and use earmuffs for all dynamic variables. 06:51:34 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-192-76.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 06:52:45 Bike: I can't find the global dynamic environment in the Hyperspec. All I can find is the global environment (which the Hyperspec states is "the environment that contains bindings with indefinite scope and indefinite extent) and the dynamic environment (which is the part of an environment (which?) that contains bindings with dynamic extent). I thought that since I didn't specifically declare the symbol x as special, that it was 06:52:45 the global not dynamic environment? 06:53:18 maybe it's better to listen to h4ns here. 06:53:28 H4ns: I know this is all very esoteric, I just went down a rabbit hole reading the Hyperspec, I even forgot what I was originally trying to look up. 06:55:10 H4ns: what's earmuffs for all dynamic variables ? 06:55:24 Its a naming convention 06:55:34 *like-this* 06:55:34 sw2wolf: *earmuffs* 06:55:38 The stars are earmuffs 06:55:52 then +abc+ ? 06:56:02 ear mutilation 06:56:09 earings 06:56:43 whose extent larger ? 06:56:52 -!- axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-88-224.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.0] 06:57:20 -!- Adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 06:57:33 or just name convension 06:58:07 Name convention. +constant+, *dynamic*, lexical 06:58:37 i see now , thx 06:58:42 You could have a symbol whose name has earmuffs but is a lexical symbol but that would be considered bad style 07:01:49 -!- toekutr [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:03:40 -!- nialo [nialo@ool-44c53f01.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 07:08:46 crus0e [~crus0e@HSI-KBW-149-172-198-162.hsi13.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 07:09:19 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-192-76.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 07:11:05 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-192-76.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 07:12:21 Adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 07:14:24 -!- Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:14:36 -!- jasom [~aidenn@ip70-191-80-19.sb.sd.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:16:20 -!- v__ [~v@61.173.108.241] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 07:19:10 Harag [~Thunderbi@105.226.64.86] has joined #lisp 07:22:01 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@freiksenet.com] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.2] 07:22:28 freiksenet [~freiksene@freiksenet.com] has joined #lisp 07:23:35 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:29:08 v__ [~v@199.68.198.120] has joined #lisp 07:29:21 Cymew [~user@fw01d.snowmen.se] has joined #lisp 07:29:30 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-70.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:29:38 -!- Bike [~Glossina@67-5-248-45.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 07:32:10 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-192-76.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 07:33:35 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-192-76.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 07:37:55 joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@c-98-208-37-38.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:43:53 -!- sambio [~sambio@190.57.227.109] has quit [] 07:44:06 -!- spacefrogg^ is now known as spacefrogg 07:44:40 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 07:49:59 ellusioner [ellusioner@c-411ee755.05-23-6c6b7013.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 07:51:35 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 07:53:42 -!- ASau [~user@46.115.87.255] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 07:55:10 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-192-76.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 07:57:10 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-192-76.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 07:58:22 -!- snowylike [~sn@91-67-171-156-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de] 08:01:41 edgar-rft [~GOD@HSI-KBW-149-172-63-75.hsi13.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 08:03:35 jasom [~aidenn@ip70-191-80-19.sb.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 08:04:06 axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-88-224.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 08:06:25 leb [~leb@c-24-7-83-224.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:09:48 cfdm [~user@116.126.96.33] has joined #lisp 08:13:30 can somebody explain this statement from pcl (chapter 5, first footnote): "some of Common Lisp's features [...] are designed to be used in a body-form* style" 08:13:37 what's a "body-form* style"? 08:14:24 sepi [~user@2001:41d0:8:e341::1] has joined #lisp 08:14:43 (at the bottom of link): http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/functions.html 08:15:40 robot-beethoven: it's what is referred to as "implicit PROGN" in the CLHS 08:16:13 xificurC [xificurC@nat/ibm/x-mvrjoccikriynyic] has joined #lisp 08:16:28 I think usually it means multiple forms can be passed in and will be evaluated sequentially 08:16:49 robot-beethoven, what he is saying I think is that a lot of functions are intended to be used imperatively 08:17:29 But I am not sure what Siebel meant in that context, because it seems to be trying to say "some of Lisp is functional e.g. the list processing functions" but the list processing functions aren't usually in implicit progn style 08:17:33 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-192-76.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:17:45 or at least they give you a "block" to fill which is then wrapped 08:17:49 they're usually in the one big expression using higher order functions style 08:19:42 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-192-76.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 08:20:24 -!- nightfly is now known as nightfly_ 08:20:27 -!- nightfly_ is now known as nightfly__ 08:20:31 -!- nightfly__ is now known as nightfly___ 08:20:34 -!- nightfly___ is now known as nightfly____ 08:21:16 -!- nightfly____ is now known as nitefli 08:21:30 -!- nitefli is now known as nightfly__ 08:21:50 xcombelle [~xcombelle@AToulouse-551-1-61-55.w92-146.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 08:22:33 hmm... that's what i thought "body-form* style" meant, but i can't seem to follow the logic of the footnote 08:23:00 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 08:23:36 robot-beethoven: I think he's talking about "code blocks" being expressions, retruning the last value 08:24:10 I.e. in C, you cannot do this: int x = if(...) { 1 } else { 2 }; 08:24:23 but in Lisp, you can: (let ((x (if ... 1 2))) 08:25:00 You can do int x = some_bool? 1 : 2 08:25:04 ;) 08:25:17 ohnoitsavram: sure, but try putting a while loop in there 08:26:54 loke: yeah, there's no way to make a while loop into an expression. 08:27:11 but aren't implicit-progns on the non-functional side of things? 08:27:24 non-functional? what is this, #haskell? 08:27:39 common lisp is not a functional programming languagee 08:27:56 leoc [~leoc.git@p4FF79E84.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 08:27:56 i'm trying to understand seibel's first footnote: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/functions.html 08:28:10 i know and love that common lisp is not functional ;) 08:28:46 In C++11 you could do something like int x = [=] () -> int {// Do some while loop here and return a result}(); 08:28:58 robot-beethoven: what are you trying to understand about it? 08:30:29 robot-beethoven: There's two interpertations. One is that Siebel mistakengly said are in a body-form* style when he meant to say are NOT in a body-form* style, or that Siebel was highlighting that even sequential computations produce a value in Common Lisp. 08:31:42 stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-239-014.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 08:33:19 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-192-76.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:34:08 xani [~user@178.183.158.179.dsl.dynamic.t-mobile.pl] has joined #lisp 08:35:07 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-192-76.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 08:35:45 it confuses me... it seems like "body-form* style" is placed on the functional-side of that sentence, though it supports the other side "after the "but" 08:43:38 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-70.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 08:45:42 -!- akovalenko [~user@77.51.4.241] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:48:04 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-70.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 08:50:37 -!- Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 08:51:45 After being confused about symbols for a while, mainly because I first started with Clojure, and Clojure and Common Lisp treat symbols similarly but differently enough, I have come up with a snippet that I think clarifies things, at least for me: http://paste.lisp.org/+2X88 08:52:38 ipmonger [~IPmonger@c-68-81-244-69.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:52:43 Namely Clojure is symbol -> name of symbol -> namespace table -> var -> environment -> value all during evalution. 08:53:01 Whereas Common Lisp is symbol (object identity as name) -> environment -> value 08:53:25 With the package system being a reader feature for translating program text into specific symbol objects. 08:56:35 -!- sellout [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:57:24 btw if a symbol's object identity is all that matters when it comes to bindings, why does gensym try to generate a unique name at all? Why have a counter? Why not just use make-symbol? 08:58:00 ohnoitsavram: easier to read the output. 08:59:29 oticat` [~oticat@114-36-231-207.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 09:00:23 Mmm, so its just so the programmer can see different names for different symbol objects in e.g macroexpand. That is handy. 09:03:09 pavelpenev [~quassel@85-130-11-8.2073813645.shumen.cablebg.net] has joined #lisp 09:05:43 -!- sw2wolf [~czsq888@118.112.68.152] has left #lisp 09:07:36 hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@109.120.32.77] has joined #lisp 09:08:10 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.56.76] has joined #lisp 09:08:10 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.56.76] has quit [Changing host] 09:08:10 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 09:09:42 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-192-76.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 09:10:52 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-192-76.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 09:16:42 martinhex [~user@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 09:17:13 farzi [~farzzz@1.38.27.111] has joined #lisp 09:19:34 am0c [~am0c@125.146.239.35] has joined #lisp 09:24:12 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:24:45 -!- madrik [~user@122.168.218.248] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:28:32 nan_ [~user@178.233.216.230] has joined #lisp 09:28:51 -!- naeg|afk is now known as naeg 09:30:52 -!- kranius_ is now known as kranius 09:31:06 ck_ [~ck@dslb-088-068-138-104.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 09:32:15 prxq [~mommer@mnhm-590c2b75.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 09:33:16 -!- leb [~leb@c-24-7-83-224.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leb] 09:34:46 arenz [~arenz@HSI-KBW-046-005-062-174.hsi8.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 09:36:13 -!- kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:37:31 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-192-76.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 09:38:08 -!- ellusioner [ellusioner@c-411ee755.05-23-6c6b7013.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: Hihi] 09:38:36 foreignFunction [~niksaak@94.27.88.40] has joined #lisp 09:39:32 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-192-76.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 09:41:30 bitonic [~user@ppp-232-137.27-151.libero.it] has joined #lisp 09:44:43 -!- karswell [~user@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:44:43 -!- martinhex [~user@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:47:23 karswell [~user@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 09:48:43 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-192-76.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:48:46 farzi_ [~farzzz@1.38.24.16] has joined #lisp 09:49:29 -!- farzi_ [~farzzz@1.38.24.16] has quit [Client Quit] 09:49:43 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 09:49:47 -!- farzi [~farzzz@1.38.27.111] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 09:50:07 farzi_ [~farzzz@1.38.24.16] has joined #lisp 09:50:53 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-192-76.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 09:51:14 -!- farzi_ is now known as farzi 09:52:08 eldariof [~CLD@215-134-158-212.static.bluetone.cz] has joined #lisp 09:53:38 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:54:56 agumonkey [~agu@8.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 09:55:10 karupanerura [~freenode@www5325uf.sakura.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 09:57:04 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:57:46 -!- Adeon_ is now known as Adeon 10:00:16 -!- farzi [~farzzz@1.38.24.16] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:04:51 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@91.77.179.141] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:07:54 snowylike [~sn@91-67-171-156-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 10:09:37 farzi [~farzi@1.38.24.14] has joined #lisp 10:10:30 -!- ohnoitsavram [~user@CPE-60-225-105-159.hhui3.cht.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 10:11:47 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@erudite.anarchism.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:16:13 corecode [~2@0x2c.org] has joined #lisp 10:16:25 hi 10:16:54 Flame_Alchemist [~Flame_Alc@host21-99-dynamic.6-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 10:17:15 i'm trying to implement a minimal lisp VM for microcontroller use, but i'm not so clear on how to deal with symbols 10:20:27 well, how are you doing it now, and why aren't you sure about that? 10:24:55 i'm not done yet, because i keep wondering what to do. ideally i want to interpret some form of bytecode, but i'm having trouble with the scoping 10:25:59 you're writing it in C, I suppose? 10:26:06 if i create separate symbols for all lexical scopes, won't that create a lot of symbols? 10:26:14 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 10:26:30 that would be just wrong 10:26:52 right now i am prototyping in clojure. i'd like to implement in something lispy and compile to assembler 10:27:01 llvm maybe 10:27:24 stassats: why would it be just wrong? 10:27:38 corecode: because it doesn't make any sense 10:27:50 -!- xcombelle [~xcombelle@AToulouse-551-1-61-55.w92-146.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:27:54 in general, symbols that are only used in source code to denote lexical variables needn't even survive the compilation phase. There's no need for them to be present at run time. 10:28:49 -!- Dalek_Baldwin [~Adium@71-84-34-33.dhcp.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 10:29:29 mal_: that's what i thought. but if you want to allow (set[!qf] ...) on lexical symbols, you need to keep them, no? 10:29:57 symbols have no scope 10:30:09 you're thinking variables 10:30:43 variables are named by symbols, but you don't need the names at run-time 10:30:56 SET doesn't act on lexical variables for exactly that reason 10:31:12 mal_: aha! 10:31:44 mal_: not exactly, the reason is because SET is a function, and it can't modify the lexical environment 10:33:24 kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 10:38:45 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:38:46 stassats: that's why it doesn't work in ANSI CL. My reason is why they didn't provide a way to make it work. They did for functions with the special operator FUNCTION. They could have specified a similar special operator VARIABLE. 10:39:47 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 10:40:10 -!- rvirding [uid5943@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-govqkesleurwdhiq] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:40:12 stassats: that's why it doesn't work in ANSI CL. My reason is why they didn't provide a way to make it work. They did for functions with the special operator FUNCTION. They could have specified a similar special operator VARIABLE. 10:40:27 rvirding [uid5943@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-gdtghlrqbtluvvqp] has joined #lisp 10:40:34 mal_: they did, it's called SETQ 10:41:14 -!- varjag [uid4973@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-fdwmtndzlgdjoobu] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:41:17 and if you want to pass it around, they did that too, it's called a closure 10:41:43 sort of but not really the same 10:42:01 because the same just does not make sense 10:42:41 -!- Harag [~Thunderbi@105.226.64.86] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 10:42:42 sure it does. there are plenty of languages where the local variables are in an accessible structure with their names preserved 10:43:22 i think you lost me thoroughly. 10:43:26 there is a plenty of languages that do not make sense 10:44:22 both python and rexx make perfect sense when taken on their own terms 10:44:33 -!- leo2007 [~leo@111.161.47.175] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:44:47 Harag [~Thunderbi@105.226.64.86] has joined #lisp 10:47:01 stassats: so i need to create variables for each lexical scope 10:47:04 mvilleneuve_ [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 10:47:48 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:47:52 -!- am0c [~am0c@125.146.239.35] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 10:48:07 -!- farzi [~farzi@1.38.24.14] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:49:08 no, variables have bindings, you need to add new bindings whenever there are any added 10:49:14 minion: please tell corecode about LiSP 10:49:19 corecode: look at LiSP: "Lisp in Small Pieces". This book covers Lisp, Scheme and other related dialects, their interpretation, semantics and compilation. To sum it up in a few figures: 500 pages, 11 chapters, 11 interpreters and 2 compilers. 10:49:59 -!- ISF_ec09 [~ivan@187.64.222.221] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:50:55 thanks 10:52:38 ISF_ec09 [~ivan@187.64.222.221] has joined #lisp 11:02:22 akovalenko [~user@77.51.63.57] has joined #lisp 11:02:37 leo2007 [~leo@li511-224.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 11:04:51 -!- springz [~springz@123.151.195.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:07:13 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-192-76.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:07:32 -!- eldariof [~CLD@215-134-158-212.static.bluetone.cz] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 11:09:18 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-192-76.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 11:11:15 casion [~AdmiralBu@pool-71-99-141-240.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 11:14:28 spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 11:16:57 morphling [~stefan@gssn-4d00290d.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 11:23:38 -!- banjiewen 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jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-192-76.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 13:11:32 -!- Vivitron [~Vivitron@pool-98-110-213-33.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:12:20 sambio [~sambio@190.57.227.109] has joined #lisp 13:12:48 Vivitron [~Vivitron@pool-98-110-213-33.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:13:35 (not CL) this C bug never let me alone "int var = var;", just awesome, and no there is no var defined before that or a global with same name. for what stupid reason they could allow this beyond me. 13:13:54 Try discussing it in not-#lisp 13:15:40 It's just a consequence of a scoping decision. 13:15:54 oh did you see that? i should have used #-lisp before that hmm. 13:16:04 -!- victor_lowther [~victor.lo@adsl-99-108-111-126.dsl.aus2tx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 13:16:08 fmeyer [~fmeyer@186.220.32.235] has joined #lisp 13:16:35 -!- casion [~AdmiralBu@pool-71-99-141-240.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: casion] 13:17:26 stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-230-227.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 13:17:47 mal_ [mal@ks24170.kimsufi.com] has joined #lisp 13:17:48 500 convoluted pages on lisp... 13:17:50 ehu [~Erik@109.34.216.132] has joined #lisp 13:18:16 i'm beginning to suspect that lisp might not be the right language of choice for my purposes 13:18:42 well, if you don't know lisp, that may be true 13:20:02 What are your purposes? 13:21:48 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@186.220.32.235] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:22:21 Zhivago: high-level programming of microcontrollers 13:22:40 stassats`: i know some elisp and some clojure 13:22:54 corecode: and you wrote 500 pages of convoluted lisp? 13:23:10 Microcontrollers are more traditionally in the forth zone. 13:23:11 H4ns: no. the lisp in small pieces is convoluted 13:23:38 Zhivago: yes, but forth is a bit bulky to use. then i'd rather use C alltogether 13:23:38 But when you say 'microcontroller', what are you talking about? 128 bytes of ram, or 128 meg of ram? 13:23:43 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-4d00290d.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 13:23:50 corecode: the book is not for everyone. 13:23:53 Odin- [~sbkhh@erudite.anarchism.is] has joined #lisp 13:23:55 If forth is too bulky, why are you trying to use lisp? 13:24:03 Zhivago: bulky to program in 13:24:12 bulky is certainly not the right word 13:24:12 Zhivago: not the VM itself 13:24:22 yes 13:24:29 probably not the right word 13:24:46 breakds [~breakds@ppp-70-226-163-93.dsl.mdsnwi.ameritech.net] has joined #lisp 13:25:03 mgile [~mgile@74-92-220-177-Colorado.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 13:27:12 -!- ehu [~Erik@109.34.216.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:33:11 drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has joined #lisp 13:33:39 YoungFrog [~youngfrog@geodiff-mac3.ulb.ac.be] has joined #lisp 13:34:11 normanrichards [~normanric@mobile-166-137-146-230.mycingular.net] has joined #lisp 13:41:00 -!- jtza8 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[~user@gateway/tor-sasl/denommus] has joined #lisp 14:11:12 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@wirelessNAT188.wireless.temple.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:11:58 -!- cibs_ [~cibs@111-248-51-116.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 14:12:21 casion [~AdmiralBu@pool-71-99-141-240.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:14:50 fmeyer [~fmeyer@200-150-182-201.static-corp.ajato.com.br] has joined #lisp 14:15:44 drmeister [~drmeister@wirelessNAT188.wireless.temple.edu] has joined #lisp 14:24:02 sellout- [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:24:20 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@wirelessNAT188.wireless.temple.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:27:47 -!- casion [~AdmiralBu@pool-71-99-141-240.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: casion] 14:28:41 -!- breakds [~breakds@ppp-70-226-163-93.dsl.mdsnwi.ameritech.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:30:09 hi 14:30:23 please is there any package for clos object serialization? 14:30:30 Posterdati: cl-store 14:32:02 H4ns: ah yes, I forgot it! Tx 14:32:13 cades [~mac@host-61-70-191-50.static.kbtelecom.net] has joined #lisp 14:32:27 I was looking with (ql-dist:system-apropos "ser") 14:32:33 am0c [~am0c@175.252.210.57] has joined #lisp 14:32:34 :) 14:33:17 drmeister [~drmeister@wirelessNAT188.wireless.temple.edu] has joined #lisp 14:33:18 -!- oticat` [~oticat@114-36-231-207.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:34:05 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 14:34:13 cibs_ [~cibs@111-248-51-116.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 14:34:52 -!- cdidd [~cdidd@95-28-37-208.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:38:02 -!- cibs [~cibs@219-87-142-18.static.tfn.net.tw] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 14:39:23 -!- ehu [~Erik@109.34.216.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 14:39:23 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@mobile-166-137-146-230.mycingular.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:39:35 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@wirelessNAT188.wireless.temple.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:41:16 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-192-76.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 14:42:47 zophy [ceb02321@gateway/web/freenode/ip.206.176.35.33] has joined #lisp 14:43:01 adelgado [~TomSawyer@c-66-229-185-165.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:43:04 drmeister [~drmeister@wirelessNAT188.wireless.temple.edu] has joined #lisp 14:43:33 -!- adelgado [~TomSawyer@c-66-229-185-165.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 14:43:55 -!- DrPete_ is now known as DrPete 14:45:54 oticat` [~oticat@114-36-231-207.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 14:49:13 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:49:39 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 14:50:43 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-192-76.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 257 seconds] 14:51:15 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@wirelessNAT188.wireless.temple.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:52:39 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-192-76.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 14:56:00 -!- oticat` [~oticat@114-36-231-207.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:56:09 -!- xificurC [xificurC@nat/ibm/x-mvrjoccikriynyic] has quit [Quit: Miranda IM! 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quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 15:35:47 duken_ [~duken@114.79.3.133] has joined #lisp 15:36:18 -!- cades [~mac@host-61-70-191-50.static.kbtelecom.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 15:36:34 -!- agumonkey [~agu@8.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:37:18 -!- duken_ [~duken@114.79.3.133] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:38:08 jacksmithz [~jacksmith@83-91-57-117-dynamic.dk.customer.tdc.net] has joined #lisp 15:38:23 duken_ [~duken@114.79.3.133] has joined #lisp 15:38:53 -!- natechan [~natechan@c-71-56-124-186.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]] 15:39:53 Knirr [~Knirr@c-da4ae555.143-16-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 15:41:06 hi 15:48:00 _d3f [~gnu@nl2.ovpn.to] has joined #lisp 15:48:19 am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has joined #lisp 15:50:14 -!- hiyosi [~hiyosi@228.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:53:01 askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.14.79] has joined #lisp 15:55:42 [SLB]` [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has joined #lisp 15:56:39 natechan [~natechan@50-192-61-45-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 15:58:12 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:58:13 -!- [SLB]` is now known as [SLB] 16:00:52 -!- prip_ [~foo@host142-28-dynamic.55-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 16:01:05 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-192-76.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:02:21 ikki [~ikki@187.208.212.127] has joined #lisp 16:02:26 nfn_ [nfn@194.210.230.120] has joined #lisp 16:03:00 hello! how can i do integer division in lisp? 16:03:06 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-192-76.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:03:14 -!- duken_ [~duken@114.79.3.133] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:03:22 nfn_: (floor 16 5) => (values 3 1) 16:03:45 nfn_: ROUND, FLOOR, CEILING, etc. depending on the result you want. 16:04:20 so many options 16:04:41 flip214, sellout- thanks 16:05:13 see also: mod, rem 16:05:28 and truncate 16:06:52 prip [~foo@host135-131-dynamic.43-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 16:07:13 thanks everybody :) 16:08:12 smazga [~acrid@64.55.45.194] has joined #lisp 16:08:30 -!- askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.14.79] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 16:10:28 -!- sellout- [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:15:21 lemonade` [~lemonade`@pool-71-178-51-174.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:15:23 KingsKnighted [~quassel@c-98-202-60-177.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:18:13 CatMtKing [~CatMtKing@mobilenet1-4-157-120.bulk.ucr.edu] has joined #lisp 16:20:25 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-132-77.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:20:51 sellout- [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:21:36 fmeyer [~fmeyer@200-150-182-201.static-corp.ajato.com.br] has joined #lisp 16:22:00 wbooze 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17:37:08 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-192-76.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:37:55 anxt [~user@64.141.19.175] has joined #lisp 17:38:05 -!- gendl [~gendl@c-98-250-10-50.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:38:56 Is there a macro for defining with- macros? I feel like it's nearly always do initialization and establish some bindings, unwind-protect, body, cleanup 17:42:05 eldariof [~CLD@215-134-158-212.static.bluetone.cz] has joined #lisp 17:43:08 -!- Bike_ [~Glossina@67-5-248-45.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 17:43:44 it's easy and more clear just to write it out 17:43:55 stassats`: you're probably right 17:44:12 It's what I thought to, but I was hoping someone smarter than me would disagree 17:44:34 -!- victor_lowther [~victorlow@143.166.116.80] has quit [Quit: Leaving IRC - dircproxy 1.2.0] 17:44:42 Bike [~Glossina@67-5-240-66.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 17:46:42 -!- bhyde [~bhyde@c-24-61-81-138.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: bhyde] 17:47:01 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:47:31 -!- spacefrogg is now known as spacefrogg^ 17:48:49 -!- hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@109.120.32.77] has quit [Quit: hitecnologys] 17:49:03 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-132-77.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:49:11 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-143-201.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 17:49:17 zophy [ceb02321@gateway/web/freenode/ip.206.176.35.33] has joined #lisp 17:49:41 varjag [uid4973@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-wxrpmmlvxiqhpqtm] has joined #lisp 17:50:10 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 17:52:35 Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 17:55:30 bhyde [~bhyde@c-24-61-81-138.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:56:48 -!- TristamWrk [~tristamwr@bodhilinux/team/Tristam] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:02:19 *patrickwonders* wishes REMHASH returned the value removed from the hash. 18:02:22 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.97.149] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:02:32 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 18:02:33 -!- ck_ [~ck@dslb-088-068-138-104.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:02:36 Czechton [~Czechton@cpc8-lewi14-2-0-cust162.2-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 18:02:49 leb [~leb@216.2.45.226] has joined #lisp 18:03:32 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:03:36 it wouldn't be out of spec if it did 18:03:42 though you wouldn't be able to depend on it portably. 18:03:58 dlowe: but you wouldn't be able to tell if it contained a nil or there was no entry 18:04:03 dlowe: it would be out of spec. 18:04:09 sykopomp: how so? 18:04:13 jasom: that's correct. 18:04:16 ebobby [~fms@199.21.86.106] has joined #lisp 18:04:18 Well I could: (setf (gethash :a hash) NIL) 18:04:24 dlowe: the generalized boolean is supposed to tell you whether there was an entry. 18:04:37 this would not be possible if the value was nil, like others pointed out 18:04:41 dlowe: actually you would have to return something other than nil if it contained nil for it to not be out of spec 18:04:44 therefore, it would be out of spec 18:04:46 Then REMHASH boolean wouldn't be useful. 18:05:53 GETHASH returns two values for this purpose I wish REMHASH did the same *shrug* 18:05:55 (prog1 (gethash :a hash) (remhash :a)) 18:06:03 (remhash key hash-table &optional missing-value) 18:06:12 *dlowe* shrugs. 18:06:23 that would work :) 18:06:42 two values would be best if we're wishful thinking 18:06:58 actually, is it considered in spec to add a return value 18:07:00 but you can't start returning two values from remhash, can you? 18:07:04 orly 18:07:17 if you're going to extend the spec, you might as well just add a "pophash" function 18:07:43 jasonm: I am doing (anaphora:awhen (gethash key hash) (remhash key hash) it) 18:07:47 it shouldn't actually affect any code to just return two values 18:07:51 *dlowe* shrugs. 18:08:06 I just have an aversion to looking up the same thing twice in a row in the hash. *shrug* 18:08:08 dlowe: (length (multiple-value-list (gethash ...))) 18:08:42 jasom: it shouldn't affect any code that isn't artificially constructed to betray the change's existence. 18:08:45 patrickwonders: at least you're virtually guaranteed to hit all the caches 18:09:05 -!- leo2007 [~leo@111.161.47.175] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:09:22 *patrickwonders* smiles at his very-warm cache 18:09:39 -!- farzi [~farzi@1.38.29.62] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:10:16 shiftf-removing :) 18:11:23 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:11:27 every now and then I feel like it's extravagent that my CPU has more cache than my first 3 computers had total RAM put together 18:11:40 (and my cache is about as big as my first hard-drive) 18:11:59 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 18:12:06 How Warm Was My Cache 18:14:04 leo2007 [~leo@li511-224.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 18:17:09 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@rrcs-108-178-120-144.sw.biz.rr.com] has quit [] 18:17:13 -!- n0vember [~n0vember@liberacescursedpiano.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:17:51 victor_lowther [~victorlow@143.166.116.80] has joined #lisp 18:19:21 n0vember [~n0vember@liberacescursedpiano.org] has joined #lisp 18:19:23 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-192-76.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:19:42 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 18:19:57 dioxirane [~polychaos@unaffiliated/dioxirane] has joined #lisp 18:20:26 sdemarre [~serge@194.81-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 18:22:44 drmeister [~drmeister@wirelessNAT188.wireless.temple.edu] has joined #lisp 18:23:06 pyx [~pyx@d24-141-100-35.home.cgocable.net] has joined #lisp 18:23:47 -!- pyx [~pyx@d24-141-100-35.home.cgocable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 18:24:20 yati [~yati@122.169.81.117] has joined #lisp 18:25:01 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:25:59 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 18:26:05 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-192-76.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 18:27:16 Hi. I understand that dynamic variables are global and rebinding them allows all code called in the binding form to see the rebound value and that the previous binding is established once this binding form is done, I fail to understand that apart from their global nature and ability to be seen by called code(and not just code that lies textually within the binding form), how are dynamic bindings different from lexical ones? 18:28:03 lexical, from their name, can be accessed when they are textually in the scope 18:28:15 special variables can be accessed from anywhere 18:29:31 (let (x) x-can-be-accessed-only-here) vs (defun y () (+ *x* 10)) (let ((*x* 10)) (y)) 18:30:39 -!- NimeshNeema [uid2689@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-dgcuohiormrilqxd] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 18:30:52 I got that. But apart from that, in case of lexical variables also, I can rebind: (defun foo (x) (x-is-something here) (let ((x "bar")) (x-is-bar-here)) (x-is-again-something-here)) 18:31:03 -!- sdemarre [~serge@194.81-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:31:22 I'm just making sure I'm not missing anything 18:32:53 their difference is in the scope, not in the ability to rebind things 18:33:12 You're correct. the difference being that if 'x' is special, then any functions called in 'x-is-bar-here' will also see the new 'x'. 18:33:58 yati: (defun foo (x) (let ((l (lambda () x)) (x 3)) (funcall l)) 18:34:46 puchacz_ [~puchacz@46-65-36-47.zone16.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:35:00 -!- arenz [~arenz@HSI-KBW-046-005-062-174.hsi8.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 18:35:14 yati: I missed a closing paren, but try that with (foo 1) 18:35:37 sohakes [~sohakes@186.207.79.146] has joined #lisp 18:35:46 -!- bhyde [~bhyde@c-24-61-81-138.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: bhyde] 18:35:56 and compare to (defvar *x*) (let ((l (lambda () *x*)) (*x* 3)) (funcall l))) 18:36:19 CLTL2 has a few paragraphs of exposition on extent and scope: http://www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/html/cltl/clm/node43.html 18:36:39 -!- sohakes [~sohakes@186.207.79.146] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 18:36:56 bhyde [~bhyde@c-24-61-81-138.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:37:23 sohakes [~sohakes@186.207.79.146] has joined #lisp 18:37:38 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:37:51 or to be even more similar: (defvar *x* 1) (defun foo (*x*) (let ((l (lambda () *x*)) (*x* 3)) (funcall l))) 18:38:12 (as far as I know, there is never a good reason to use a special as a function parameter normally though) 18:39:05 -!- crus0e [~crus0e@HSI-KBW-149-172-198-162.hsi13.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Quit: crus0e] 18:39:07 jayne, Wow 18:39:18 that makes stuff much clearer 18:39:28 jasom: as an optional or a keyword 18:39:56 stassats`: hmm, that makes sense 18:39:57 jasom: for example, see M-. write in sbcl 18:40:04 I won't but I am going to steal this example for my blog :) 18:40:22 -!- xani [~user@178.183.158.179.dsl.dynamic.t-mobile.pl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:41:44 stassats`: That's using the values of specials to bind local variables, not using the values passed in to bind specials... 18:41:47 right? 18:41:47 jasom: Using a special variable as a default for a function argument is very useful. It gets you one feature of dependency injection frameworks -- the ability to have request-scoped defaults for important entities, such as "database-connection" or "user-making-server-request". 18:42:01 patrickwonders: no 18:42:22 -!- leo2007 [~leo@li511-224.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 18:42:26 stassats`, jasom, but won't having a global default, say *standard-output* be useful in case of a function that expects a stream and uses stdout as a fallback? 18:42:43 brown`: I suppose it's no different than having it not be special, and then binding the special inside the body, so you're right 18:43:16 Which parameter of write names a special variable? 18:43:24 yati: yes, that's under "an optional or a keyword" 18:43:25 Nevermind... 18:43:31 I'm reading the lambda-list wrong. 18:43:49 I forgot what ((a b) c) meant. 18:43:59 yati: so you would write (&optional (*standard-output* *standard-output*)) 18:44:37 stassats`, Right. 18:45:25 -!- nialo [nialo@ool-44c53f01.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:45:57 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-192-76.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:47:04 patrickwonders: it means look for A in the call as a keyword marker, bind a variable named B, and if unsupplied, default to C. 18:47:22 you can throw in a suppliedp too 18:47:37 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-192-76.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 18:47:44 jasom: Just to be clear. The special variable is being used as the default value of normal function parameter. The parameter is not itself a special variable. 18:48:16 mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.97.149] has joined #lisp 18:48:47 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:49:55 Is there a well-known library for the power set? 18:50:07 brown`: that's not what I was talking about, but stassats` gives an example where the parameter itself is a special 18:50:30 patrickwonders, I guess per convention, c should be a-supplied-p, no? 18:50:31 Xach: for getting the powerset of a set? 18:50:32 *Xach* googles and cut & pastes 18:50:38 Xach: so many they can't be counted :P 18:50:40 Bike: yeah. 18:50:48 drmeiste_ [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has joined #lisp 18:51:00 I used http://rosettacode.org/wiki/Power_set#Common_Lisp for now. 18:51:13 -!- spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:51:44 if you're just using lists as sets it's (cons nil (maplist #'identity set)), but that's as inefficient as usual 18:52:01 wait, no, nevermind. 18:52:24 I thought there was some cleer way to do it but I'm blanking. Oh well. 18:52:26 I'm game for learning a new trick for it! 18:53:50 Gotta get some sleep now. Bye. 18:53:59 -!- yati [~yati@122.169.81.117] has left #lisp 18:54:23 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@wirelessNAT188.wireless.temple.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:56:36 crus0e [~crus0e@HSI-KBW-149-172-198-162.hsi13.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 18:56:37 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.97.149] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:56:48 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:58:24 antonv [5d7d2a66@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.42.102] has joined #lisp 18:59:08 Xach: I do not know if exists a specific finite set theory library, anyway maybe take a look at ACL2. I hope that help you! 19:01:55 sdemarre [~serge@194.81-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 19:04:43 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-192-76.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:04:54 Xach: there is also a good work done by Chaitin... 19:05:02 -!- paddymahoney [~paddymaho@198-84-186-52.cpe.teksavvy.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:05:26 -!- leb [~leb@216.2.45.226] has quit [Quit: leb] 19:05:44 -!- akovalenko [~user@77.51.63.57] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 19:06:03 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-192-76.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:06:10 akovalenko [~user@77.51.63.57] has joined #lisp 19:06:39 For me that is swatting a fly with a nuke 19:07:08 even for me 19:09:16 -!- am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 19:10:34 -!- Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:11:51 -!- casion [~AdmiralBu@pool-71-99-141-240.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: casion] 19:13:59 anyway i do not know if HPC is done using even lisp... but maybe yes... 19:15:34 mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.97.149] has joined #lisp 19:15:46 -!- victor_lowther [~victorlow@143.166.116.80] has quit [Quit: Leaving IRC - dircproxy 1.2.0] 19:16:07 erikc [~erikc@CPE00222d53fe78-CM00222d53fe75.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 19:18:42 `arrdem [~user@resnet-45-187.dorm.utexas.edu] has joined #lisp 19:20:31 paddymahoney [~paddymaho@198-84-186-52.cpe.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 19:20:43 -!- dioxirane [~polychaos@unaffiliated/dioxirane] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:21:47 -!- Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:23:36 -!- yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.168] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:24:47 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 19:24:53 -!- bitonic [~user@ppp-232-137.27-151.libero.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:25:34 -!- arrdem [~arrdem@dhcp-53-132.ece.utexas.edu] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:26:13 ASau [~user@46.115.41.57] has joined #lisp 19:29:04 -!- jacksmithz [~jacksmith@83-91-57-117-dynamic.dk.customer.tdc.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:29:42 spligak_ [~spligak@2607:f0d0:1100:8026:2e41:38ff:feaf:1ff7] has joined #lisp 19:30:44 normanrichards [~normanric@rrcs-108-178-120-144.sw.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:33:08 breakds [~breakds@wifi-116.cs.wisc.edu] has joined #lisp 19:38:29 Fare [fare@nat/google/x-uhuxcbxlsqrwbavc] has joined #lisp 19:39:57 Xach: that iterative one on rosetta code is fairly slick; I would not have thought of doing it that way 19:42:25 bitonic [~user@ppp-232-137.27-151.libero.it] has joined #lisp 19:42:29 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.97.149] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 19:43:43 Dalek_Baldwin [~Adium@71-84-34-33.dhcp.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has joined #lisp 19:44:02 morphling [~stefan@gssn-4d00290d.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 19:44:48 Is there a handy SBCL-internal function that reads 8 octets from a vector of octets and returns them as a 64-bit integer? 19:46:24 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-192-76.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:47:17 -!- knob [~knob@76.76.202.244] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:47:29 brown`: there's SB-KERNEL:%VECTOR-RAW-BITS. 19:47:53 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-192-76.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:49:05 in the general case, if you need unaligned access and your CPU supports them, pinning, vector-sap and sb-alien. 19:51:38 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 19:56:34 -!- bitonic [~user@ppp-232-137.27-151.libero.it] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:56:59 bitonic [~user@ppp-232-137.27-151.libero.it] has joined #lisp 19:58:14 corni [~corni@p4FE382E6.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 19:58:14 -!- corni [~corni@p4FE382E6.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Changing host] 19:58:14 corni [~corni@drupal.org/user/136353/view] has joined #lisp 20:01:39 leo2007 [~leo@111.161.47.175] has joined #lisp 20:04:24 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@rrcs-108-178-120-144.sw.biz.rr.com] has quit [] 20:06:50 normanrichards [~normanric@rrcs-108-178-120-144.sw.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:09:01 brown`, nibbles can help 20:09:14 it has portable variants and sbcl-specific optimized versions 20:09:44 -!- sohakes [~sohakes@186.207.79.146] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:10:50 -!- Flame_Alchemist [~Flame_Alc@host21-99-dynamic.6-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:12:11 -!- bitonic [~user@ppp-232-137.27-151.libero.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:13:07 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-192-76.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:13:26 pkhuong: Thanks! 20:13:40 francogrex [~user@109.128.244.240] has joined #lisp 20:13:43 Fare: Thanks to you too! 20:13:45 -!- paddymahoney [~paddymaho@198-84-186-52.cpe.teksavvy.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:13:57 do you have suggestions to optimize this better? http://paste.lisp.org/display/136380 20:14:32 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-192-76.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 20:14:49 is that not just fill? 20:15:15 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-106-0.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:15:49 -!- two- [~1@c-67-171-131-23.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:16:23 casion [~AdmiralBu@pool-71-99-141-240.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:17:32 mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.97.149] has joined #lisp 20:17:42 Fare (or somebody) want to suggest a more appropriate way to do this: http://paste.lisp.org/+2X8D 20:18:26 I need to push a directory on the search list after clsql is loaded, but before clsql-mysql tries to load 20:18:54 you can eql-specialize on the second parameter, maybe 20:19:10 kennyd [~kennyd@93-141-55-39.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 20:19:41 let me try to do that again  20:19:46 the pushnew won't work, though. 20:20:00 wait, no, yes it will 20:20:43 what is fill? 20:21:00 clhs fill 20:21:01 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_fill.htm 20:22:09 ah not related to my question, it's a suggestion to another person... ok 20:22:29 (defmethod perform :before ((op load-op) (c (eql (find-system "clsql-uffi"))))  is better yeah 20:22:30 francogrex: no, I meant you. 20:22:35 bhyde: looks ugly 20:22:47 indeed it does 20:22:53 do you need that because clsql-mysql will try to do the loading before you get to configure it? 20:22:58 spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 20:23:19 I'd say -- modify clsql-mysql to expose initialization functions that you can call at runtime with proper parameters 20:23:30 yup, it natural want's to load it's foreign libraries and needs to know were to find them 20:24:19 yes, but the right thing is to load them at runtime, not at compile-time 20:24:50 for god's sake, if I compile and dump an image, I do NOT want to have them loaded at compile-time 20:24:53 having clsql signal, or callback, or use a list in a global  it's all the same i'd need to establish something before the depends-on is fufilled 20:25:27 that perform is on the load-op 20:25:51 that's ugly -- it's not guaranteed that your method definition happens before the system is loaded, anyway 20:25:53 so you lose 20:26:01 *bhyde* has very little enthusiasms for forking clsql et. al. 20:26:13 what about sending a patch upstream? 20:26:43 alternatively, implement some configuration mechanism for asdf 20:26:49 bike ok. well the aim is to find ways to avoid boxing floats. but i think this (http://paste.lisp.org/display/136380#1) and the previous one don't have an advantage over each other 20:27:23 I thought that storing the results of floats devisions into a typed array would force the result to be of type defined and avoid boxing 20:27:44 francogrex: I just mean (fill to (/ val1 val2)). 20:28:13 -!- Dalek_Baldwin [~Adium@71-84-34-33.dhcp.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:28:37 *bhyde* (first (sort #> 'my-project 'clsql 'asdf :key #'desire-to-hack-code-of)) -> my-project :) 20:29:29 Hi. We're looking for community leaders (aka masochists) to help organize ILC 2014 (International Lisp Conference) in Montreal 20:29:41 NimeshNeema [uid2689@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-udhujdzqmroztpgs] has joined #lisp 20:29:55 https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups#!forum/ilc-2014-organization 20:30:11 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-192-76.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:30:27 Montreal!!! Fantastic! 20:30:38 That is very exciting. 20:30:46 ohnoitsavram [~user@CPE-60-225-105-159.hhui3.cht.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 20:31:58 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-192-76.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 20:34:42 -!- `fogus [~fogus@freedom.d-a-s.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:35:08 excellent news for New Englanders :) 20:35:52 bike ok thanks. but for avoiding boxing I think what i was doing is fine and correct. Storing the results in the typed array avoids boxing 20:35:57 is there going to be no 2013 ILC? 20:36:12 francogrex: if the array being filled is a single-float array it is the same thing 20:36:31 -!- Fare [fare@nat/google/x-uhuxcbxlsqrwbavc] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:36:37 yes it's a single float 20:37:29 peterhil` [~peterhil@a91-154-228-199.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 20:37:38 -!- foreignFunction [~niksaak@94.27.88.40] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:38:09 but there is a cost for fill as it is 20:38:24 What cost? 20:38:36 note: doing unsigned word to integer coercion (cost 20) << (fill to (/val1 val2)) 20:39:00 You should probably tell SBCL those are all floats, then. 20:39:21 paddymahoney [~paddymaho@198-84-186-52.cpe.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 20:39:27 dlowe: ILC 2013 was at mary chungs a couple weeks ago 20:39:57 why not web-based ILC? like with webinars 20:40:02 pjb-ssh [~t@voyager.informatimago.com] has joined #lisp 20:40:15 Dalek_Baldwin [~Adium@108-225-26-178.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:40:23 for those who cannot be there 20:40:39 :( 20:41:11 francogrex, Maybe that's an idea, though I could see that just turning into a mess of technical issues 20:41:27 francogrex, if you're suggesting it strictly be online, then that sounds like it takes away all the fun in an ILC 20:41:30 because the main attraction of a conference is not the actual talks, it's the personal interaction 20:41:36 -!- leo2007 [~leo@111.161.47.175] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:41:46 Ah  i can avoid :depends-on and that lets me do this -- http://paste.lisp.org/display/136381#2 20:41:49 oh 20:42:01 -!- eldariof [~CLD@215-134-158-212.static.bluetone.cz] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 20:43:48 -!- pjb-ssh [~t@voyager.informatimago.com] has quit [Client Quit] 20:44:51 hopefully that will reduce how much Fade is cringing 20:45:57 apparently Fare departed and autocomplete has decided that Fade should take over ASDF :) 20:46:05 -!- Houl [~Parmi@unaffiliated/houl] has quit [Quit: weil das Wetter so schön ist] 20:46:53 -!- drmeiste_ [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:47:00 leo2007 [~leo@111.161.47.175] has joined #lisp 20:49:10 eldariof [~CLD@215-134-158-212.static.bluetone.cz] has joined #lisp 20:50:16 bitonic [~user@ppp-232-137.27-151.libero.it] has joined #lisp 20:50:58 -!- natechan [~natechan@50-192-61-45-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]] 20:52:38 not suggesting only online, but that for some who can't be physically present there, arrange participation by TC and video 20:53:26 that would be great! 20:53:35 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-192-76.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:54:23 -!- clox [~user@rrcs-208-125-109-116.nys.biz.rr.com] has left #lisp 20:54:53 -!- puchacz_ [~puchacz@46-65-36-47.zone16.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:55:01 -!- bitonic [~user@ppp-232-137.27-151.libero.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:55:34 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-192-76.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 20:56:39 TristamWrk [~tristamwr@gray-47.dynamic2.rpi.edu] has joined #lisp 20:56:39 -!- TristamWrk [~tristamwr@gray-47.dynamic2.rpi.edu] has quit [Changing host] 20:56:39 TristamWrk [~tristamwr@bodhilinux/team/Tristam] has joined #lisp 20:57:35 -!- ebobby [~fms@199.21.86.106] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:58:32 -!- leo2007 [~leo@111.161.47.175] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:02:26 -!- stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-229-164.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 21:05:10 Fare [fare@nat/google/x-dbovlerfmmsirncg] has joined #lisp 21:05:54 -!- s0ber [~s0ber@114-25-204-182.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:06:49 s0ber [~s0ber@114-36-247-1.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 21:07:34 drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has joined #lisp 21:10:07 -!- francogrex [~user@109.128.244.240] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:10:32 Krystof: and the food 21:12:07 and the not paying for it 21:13:09 are there any lisp implementations that can do unboxed 64-bit integer arithmetic without boxing 21:13:41 erikc: sbcl on x64 21:14:07 erikc: but it will box anytime you cross a function boundary that the compiler doesn't know for sure both sides are 64-bit 21:14:32 using (unsigned-byte 64) 21:14:33 ? 21:14:37 yeah 21:15:16 it will also do very efficient arithmetic if you have a (logand #xFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF) around the results 21:15:27 leb [~leb@c-24-7-83-224.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:15:31 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-192-76.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:15:38 otherwise (e.g. (1+ (unsigned-byte 64)) could be a bignum so it can't 21:15:44 natechan [~natechan@c-71-56-124-186.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:16:03 do i need to declare dynamic-extent, or the compiler figures out they don't escape 21:16:07 -!- peterhil` [~peterhil@a91-154-228-199.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:16:12 leo2007 [~leo@li511-224.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 21:16:19 Xach: and in this case, the city it will be located in! That is already making me book my ticket ... The only city in the world where 'franglais' is a well know and spoken tounge! 21:16:40 *drewc* is already quite excited about ILC 2014 :D 21:16:42 -!- zophy [ceb02321@gateway/web/freenode/ip.206.176.35.33] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:16:43 will experiment with some disassembly, trying to build up my mental model for lisp optimization 21:17:06 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-192-76.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 21:17:11 I'm not an expert, so it may not be the best way, but here's an example: https://github.com/jasom/kiss-rng/blob/master/kiss-rng.lisp 21:17:24 (i will finally meet people who couldnt make it to 2012. i hope you like going out drinking and hacking) 21:17:27 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-143-201.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:17:46 ILC 2014 sounds great :) I can probably get to Montreal, and man, I love that city. 21:18:34 How ILC differ from ELS? Is it more days? 21:18:35 two- [~1@c-67-171-131-23.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:18:56 ELS is european but ILC is international 21:19:12 jasom: I find (ldb (byte 64 0) ...) or (logand most-positive-word ...) clearer. 21:19:13 Yes, but I assume we'll still all speak English anyways. 21:19:24 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-143-201.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 21:19:34 conferences are a lot better than symposiums 21:19:40 C'est okay, je suis Américain 21:19:46 czego_szukasz [~user@affc242.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 21:19:49 But I guess meeting Japanese lispers could be interesting. A few of them have published interesting code recently. 21:20:12 erikc: really? Why? I don't get the difference. 21:20:12 stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-229-164.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 21:20:32 i think there was a pretty big language barrier at 2012, so much as to have separate lightning talks in japanese 21:20:33 drewc: arguably, Ottawa/Gatineau and parts of NB are better at frenglish. 21:20:35 just kidding :), i have no idea what the difference is 21:21:52 I don't know. I've only been at two ELS. I think the assistance was quite homogeneous. They were short (1.5 or 2 days). 21:21:56 slyrus [~chatzilla@173-228-44-92.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 21:22:45 -!- m7w [~chatzilla@178.172.228.60] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:23:06 Perhaps a conference would have more time to deal with more diverse people and more diverse activities, like, newbies and tutorial sessions, demos, hack sprints, or things like that? 21:23:31 But I don't know if we can attrack such a public either. 21:23:40 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@rrcs-108-178-120-144.sw.biz.rr.com] has quit [] 21:23:44 -!- Corvidium [~cosman246@24.56.241.224] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:23:50 attract 21:23:59 pkhuong true, I am Acadian after all, and NB even has that style language ... but MtL is the only place I know where I speak french and folks answer back in frenglish ... things may have changed since 2009 though :) 21:24:15 -!- eldariof [~CLD@215-134-158-212.static.bluetone.cz] has quit [] 21:24:47 ebobby [~fms@199.21.86.106] has joined #lisp 21:24:51 sellout: I was last there in 2009 for the div 2 final between 'their' football team and 'ours' ... Whitecaps FC @ Impact ... it has been way to long and I like my 3am poutine quite a bit!! 21:25:48 2009 sounds like it could have been when I was last there, too. 21:26:00 -!- Fare [fare@nat/google/x-dbovlerfmmsirncg] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:26:09 sellout: well, I hope to see you there in 2014! :D 21:26:23 Indeed :) 21:27:11 when you put on your nametag, write your IRC name on it too 21:27:55 *drewc* has never been to a lisp conference/symposium at all and is quite excited to have it in the place where even the Canadiens are called "Les Habitants" :) 21:31:14 bitonic [~user@ppp-232-137.27-151.libero.it] has joined #lisp 21:31:59 but ... will my nametag not say my name? Drew Crampsie ... the first 5 letters _are_ my nickname! and my domains, and my email addresses ... and i live on the sea and happen to be druí ;) ... 21:32:21 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:37:19 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 21:38:46 drewc, too much to think about! 21:40:33 bananagram [~bot@c-98-198-236-112.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:40:47 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-181-59.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:40:48 Quadrescence: even worse is that in the language that a number of MtL folks speak, my nickname is Dédé ... :D 21:41:06 haha :D 21:41:59 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-210-230-16.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 21:42:49 ma mere wanted to name me "Andre Michel", my Da "Andrew Michael" ... which he thought my name was until I was about 12 and showed him my birth certificate ... "Andrew Michel" ... that is a franglais name if i have ever seen one :P 21:43:10 am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has joined #lisp 21:43:55 and relevant as well, to me, for my moms name is "Michelle" and my da "Michael" :D 21:44:19 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-192-76.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:45:45 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-192-76.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 21:45:48 -!- leo2007 [~leo@li511-224.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:47:18 *jasom* didn't know Michel was French; it could also be germanic 21:48:13 It's theophanic, a rip on original Hebrew, isn't it 21:48:22 The Hyperspec says "The sorting operation can be destructive in all cases", but it doesn't say "it *is* destructive in all cases" does this mean it is implementation dependant if it's destructive or not? 21:48:29 Yes, it's from Hebrew like english Michael 21:48:30 yes. 21:49:36 nialo [nialo@ool-44c53f01.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 21:50:17 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:50:25 Bike: I can't tell if you were answering my question or continuitng the previous conversation, apologies. 21:51:09 ohnoitsavram: the answer is yes. 21:51:14 ohnoitsavram: Yes, it's implementation-dependent whether it's destructive. 21:51:47 Thanks! 21:52:52 easy way to tell is the 'el' at the end ... and not Hebrew per se, but Semitic for sure 21:53:28 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-192-76.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:53:30 Corvidium [~cosman246@50-47-80-152.evrt.wa.frontiernet.net] has joined #lisp 21:54:42 -!- Czechton [~Czechton@cpc8-lewi14-2-0-cust162.2-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:55:09 Czechton [~Czechton@cpc8-lewi14-2-0-cust162.2-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 21:55:31 drewc: I thought the el meant it was emacs lisp. 21:57:24 sellout: glad I'm not alone (: 21:58:02 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:59:16 ikki [~ikki@187.208.212.127] has joined #lisp 22:01:09 -!- two- [~1@c-67-171-131-23.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:01:23 zophy [ceb02321@gateway/web/freenode/ip.206.176.35.33] has joined #lisp 22:01:31 -!- Harag [~Thunderbi@105.226.64.86] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 22:02:45 is there a recommended lisp gtk2 toolkit ? 22:03:12 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@200-150-182-201.static-corp.ajato.com.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:04:04 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@173-228-44-92.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:04:44 sellout: that is what elohim wanted you to think ... but we all prefer CL, "Chief of the demons Lisp" :P 22:05:07 -!- zophy [ceb02321@gateway/web/freenode/ip.206.176.35.33] has quit [Client Quit] 22:05:45 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 22:06:22 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 22:06:30 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 22:06:37 zophy [ceb02321@gateway/web/freenode/ip.206.176.35.33] has joined #lisp 22:08:59 -!- bitonic [~user@ppp-232-137.27-151.libero.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:09:06 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:10:13 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:10:13 -!- ikki [~ikki@187.208.212.127] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:10:55 slyrus [~chatzilla@173-228-44-92.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 22:11:22 Fare [fare@nat/google/x-nlgsxqowglczydkj] has joined #lisp 22:13:40 -!- sambio [~sambio@190.57.227.109] has quit [] 22:14:04 Is there a good/canonical way to write print-object functions for objects that inherit? 22:14:29 -!- sdemarre [~serge@194.81-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:14:43 My general print-object function uses PRINT-UNREADABLE-OBJECT which leaves something to be desired if I do CALL-NEXT-METHOD inside of it. 22:14:46 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-210-230-16.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:15:50 -!- zophy [ceb02321@gateway/web/freenode/ip.206.176.35.33] has quit [Quit: i've noticed the sun has been moving lately] 22:19:43 -!- akovalenko [~user@77.51.63.57] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:20:07 akovalenko [~user@77.51.63.57] has joined #lisp 22:20:48 reckler [~reckler@ppp118-210-230-16.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 22:21:35 cdidd [~cdidd@93-80-5-217.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 22:22:50 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 22:22:59 -!- casion [~AdmiralBu@pool-71-99-141-240.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: casion] 22:23:36 -!- Fare [fare@nat/google/x-nlgsxqowglczydkj] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:24:41 -!- Corvidium [~cosman246@50-47-80-152.evrt.wa.frontiernet.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:25:20 Corvidium [~cosman246@50-47-80-152.evrt.wa.frontiernet.net] has joined #lisp 22:28:22 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 22:29:20 scottj [~scott@206.212.250.58] has joined #lisp 22:29:31 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 22:30:55 if I have two functions, foo and my-foo, how can I temporarily set foo to be my-foo? 22:30:56 patrickwonders: I don't know. I sometimes write print-object methods like (print-unreadable-object (object stream) (write-string (short-description object) stream)))))) and then 22:31:05 -!- mgile [~mgile@74-92-220-177-Colorado.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Parting is such sweet sorrow...] 22:31:09 scottj: There's no normal way to do that. 22:31:16 That is, terse and easy 22:31:36 patrickwonders: and then do what i want with short-description methods/readers 22:32:23 Xach: that sounds better than the ad-hoc (DEFGENERIC PRINT-DETAILS ) sort of thing that I had going. 22:32:30 -!- snowylike [~sn@91-67-171-156-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de] 22:32:31 Thanks... 22:34:44 See ~/quicklisp/quicklisp/dist.lisp for a variation on that idea 22:37:35 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-70.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:42:48 -!- leb [~leb@c-24-7-83-224.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leb] 22:44:34 -!- Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:45:27 -!- antonv [5d7d2a66@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.42.102] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:45:30 -!- Myk267 [~myk@71.149.254.193] has quit [Quit: Ack! Hans, run! It's the lhurgoyf!] 22:46:24 -!- ohnoitsavram [~user@CPE-60-225-105-159.hhui3.cht.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:47:47 -!- rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Quit: rpg] 22:49:31 -!- bhyde [~bhyde@c-24-61-81-138.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: bhyde] 22:49:39 scottj: if by "temporary" you mean inside a lexical block, you can use a labels statement to "shadow" your global function. 22:50:32 scottj: http://cl.ly/image/1Y3B0C0e0W2u 22:50:59 ebobby: thanks! 22:52:47 knob [~knob@66.50.1.179] has joined #lisp 22:53:32 -!- knob [~knob@66.50.1.179] has quit [Client Quit] 22:54:26 gendl [~gendl@c-98-250-10-50.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:55:41 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-590c2b75.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:56:22 -!- adelgado [~TomSawyer@65.23.61.98.nw.nuvox.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:56:55 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:57:39 -!- Czechton [~Czechton@cpc8-lewi14-2-0-cust162.2-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:58:04 Czechton [~Czechton@cpc8-lewi14-2-0-cust162.2-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 23:00:35 *drewc* wants to say that SET and LABELS are different things and completely unrelated! :D 23:01:18 enlighten us 23:01:31 or well, rather, enlighten me. 23:01:36 cant speak for everyone else. 23:01:41 clhs SET 23:01:41 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for SET. 23:01:44 clhs set 23:01:44 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_set.htm 23:02:48 -!- ellusioner [ellusioner@c-411ee755.05-23-6c6b7013.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: Hihi] 23:02:54 drewc: so you are saying that he meant the function "set" as opposed to the verb set ? as in I want to set this thing to something else. ? 23:03:23 well, it's true that binding is different from assignment. 23:04:14 Bike: it is. 23:04:19 no, I am saying that LABELS does not "temporarily set foo to be my-foo", because yes, of what Bike said 23:05:10 (defun foo () 1) (labels ((foo () 2)) (funcall 'foo)) => 1 23:05:31 so what does set mean in that regard? 23:07:21 so, apparently what I said was helpful to him in his particular situation. 23:07:38 you are saying that since he used the word "set" I should had not tried to help him? 23:07:52 is that really what you think? 23:09:34 *drewc* does not ever remember saying anything of the sort, and scrolling back does not at all. So, is likely 23:09:54 Im just saying that I don't see the point to this argument or debate if whatever I said was helpful to the guy. (or gal?) 23:10:12 argument? debate? 23:10:13 -!- setmeaway2 [stemearay@118.45.149.119] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:10:16 nevermind 23:10:23 I will just sit quietly in my corner. 23:10:49 ebobby: mutating a binding and defining a new lexical binding are vastly different operations. It may be what scottj is asking for, in which case, my telepathic hat's off to you. 23:12:09 pkhuong: and I never said that they wasnt. I was just trying to formulate something helpful with the info that the guy gave. And I also stated in my answer that I made assumptions. 23:12:23 s/wasnt/werent/ 23:17:25 -!- Corvidium [~cosman246@50-47-80-152.evrt.wa.frontiernet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:20:04 -!- anxt [~user@64.141.19.175] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:22:11 -!- stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-229-164.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 23:26:41 -!- spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:26:41 -!- Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:27:43 spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 23:27:47 Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 23:27:57 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 23:28:05 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:29:06 -!- sweet_kid [having@irc.upasna.in] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 23:32:38 normanrichards [~normanric@70.114.215.220] has joined #lisp 23:35:34 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@173-228-44-92.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:35:37 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.97.149] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 23:37:37 (defvar %foo% (fdefinition 'foo)) (setf (fdefinition 'foo) (lambda (&rest args) (apply %foo% args))) (let ((%foo% (constantly 'yay!!))) (foo)) <-- ok, still not setting, but dynamic binding for functions is somewhat 'odd' :) 23:37:47 ohnoitsavram [~user@CPE-60-225-105-159.hhui3.cht.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 23:39:22 drewc: less odd that (setf fdefinition)/unwind-protect. 23:39:24 *than 23:40:22 DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@101.175.65.1] has joined #lisp 23:40:40 Corvidium [~cosman246@24.56.241.224] has joined #lisp 23:40:58 yeah, that is setting... and already has me thinking about multithreads and all that jazz 23:41:00 lduros` [~user@pool-108-52-158-66.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:41:48 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:42:20 Bike_ [~Glossina@71-34-68-165.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 23:42:34 -!- Bike_ [~Glossina@71-34-68-165.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Client Quit] 23:42:51 Bike_ [~Glossina@71-34-68-165.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 23:45:12 -!- Bike [~Glossina@67-5-240-66.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:45:35 adelgado [~TomSawyer@c-66-229-185-165.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:46:09 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-4d00290d.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 23:46:56 -!- Bike_ is now known as Bike 23:47:02 -!- smazga [~acrid@64.55.45.194] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.1.1] 23:47:32 -!- crus0e [~crus0e@HSI-KBW-149-172-198-162.hsi13.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Quit: crus0e] 23:52:22 bhyde [~bhyde@c-24-61-81-138.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:53:21 Tumult [~nnscript@108-61-55-76ch.openskytelcom.net] has joined #lisp 23:55:43 -!- breakds [~breakds@wifi-116.cs.wisc.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:57:09 is this room common lisp only or can I ask application specific lisp? 23:57:40 this is for common lisp. I don't know of any general lispy channel. 23:57:43 room? /me did not join aol 23:57:56 -!- MoALTz [~no@host86-142-161-119.range86-142.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:58:14 Tumult: It's common-lisp; which application, out of curiousity? 23:58:51 breakds [~breakds@wifi-116.cs.wisc.edu] has joined #lisp 23:59:27 -!- czego_szukasz [~user@affc242.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has left #lisp