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http://colloquy.mobi] 01:35:18 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:35:58 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-71-163-43-88.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 01:37:00 -!- k-stz [~user@HSI-KBW-095-208-250-243.hsi5.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:37:31 -!- spacefrogg [~spacefrog@unaffiliated/spacefrogg] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 01:38:45 -!- antgreen [~green@dsl-173-206-64-86.tor.primus.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:41:04 tensorpuddin [~tensorpud@99.148.199.124] has joined #lisp 01:43:18 -!- tensorpudding [~tensorpud@108.87.19.242] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 01:43:19 -!- tensorpuddin is now known as tensorpudding 01:44:33 -!- cades [~mac@114-32-245-7.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 01:46:12 antgreen [~green@dsl-173-206-64-86.tor.primus.ca] has joined #lisp 01:47:19 cades [~mac@114-32-245-7.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 01:48:55 -!- r126l_ is now known as r126l 01:52:43 _veer [~veer@pool-108-33-26-144.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:52:43 -!- _veer [~veer@pool-108-33-26-144.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 01:52:43 _veer [~veer@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 01:56:16 -!- antgreen [~green@dsl-173-206-64-86.tor.primus.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:57:12 victor_lowther [~victor.lo@2602:306:36c6:f7e0:848a:3085:a8f0:2f3c] has joined #lisp 01:59:29 antgreen [~green@dsl-173-206-64-86.tor.primus.ca] has joined #lisp 02:02:04 -!- Juanito-Jons [~jreynoso@177.224.214.151] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:02:23 clhs curry 02:03:14 -!- Guest13330 [~rick@76.178.135.192] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:03:36 joast [~rick@76.178.135.192] has joined #lisp 02:04:05 sw2wolf: Youll find CURRY in Alexandria. 02:08:38 (defun curry (fun &rest args1) (lambda (&rest args2) (apply fun (append args1 args2)))) 02:09:13 Yeah, its not very complicated (but its also not really currying). 02:09:22 alexandria's uses m-v-call and stuff. 02:09:43 Theres also RCURRY  which just reverses args1 and args2. 02:10:06 thx 02:10:40 -!- jaimef is now known as fsbot 02:11:44 -!- rtoym [~chatzilla@24.130.4.105] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 02:12:23 -!- fsbot is now known as jaimef 02:13:02 Zhivago [~lys@1.234.65.131] has joined #lisp 02:13:11 -!- linse [~marioooh@84-91-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has quit [Quit: zzzz] 02:16:15 -!- Zhivago [~lys@1.234.65.131] has quit [Changing host] 02:16:15 Zhivago [~lys@unaffiliated/zhivago] has joined #lisp 02:18:16 rtoym [~chatzilla@24.130.4.105] has joined #lisp 02:19:51 nialo` [nialo@ool-44c53f01.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 02:20:38 -!- rukubites [~user@d122-111-11-20.meb804.vic.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 02:21:57 -!- rtoym [~chatzilla@24.130.4.105] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:23:55 -!- nialo [~nialo@ool-44c53f01.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:24:39 -!- dnolen [~user@cpe-74-64-61-245.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:25:41 nialo [~nialo@ool-44c53f01.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 02:28:30 -!- nialo` [nialo@ool-44c53f01.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:32:38 -!- axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-88-224.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.0] 02:33:08 -!- _tca [~user@h151.25.91.207.static.ip.windstream.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:34:46 rtoym [~chatzilla@24.130.4.105] has joined #lisp 02:36:01 adelgado [~TomSawyer@c-66-229-185-165.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:41:00 -!- adelgado [~TomSawyer@c-66-229-185-165.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:41:40 How is STEP implemented best? How would you implement STEP-OUT, STEP-NEXT, STEP-INTO in a code-walking interpreter? 02:41:49 sellout-1 [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:41:53 -!- joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@mail.concordusapps.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:42:12 -!- sellout- [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:42:38 by walking one step at a time 02:43:05 Keshi [~Keshi@unaffiliated/keshi] has joined #lisp 02:43:46 ISF_ec09 [~ivan@187.64.222.221] has joined #lisp 02:45:07 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@173-228-44-92.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:45:46 Got that. I'm trying to figure out how to implement it within interpreted code and compiled code. 02:46:39 -!- nialo [~nialo@ool-44c53f01.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:46:56 Doesn't SBCL insert condition signaling into compiled code for it? 02:47:30 I've got a nasty bug where a single entry in a frame is becoming unbound and I can't figure out where it's happening. Setting watch-points in GDB is completely useless for some reason. Possibly because it's being set in my compiled code and GDB isn't single stepping through my compiled code. 02:47:55 Bike: Yes, SBCL appears to use condition signaling. 02:49:45 I don't have conditions working properly yet because I haven't gotten ECL-CLOS to work yet. 02:50:30 I'm so very close though. I'm in "fixup.lsp" which is the last CLOS source file and I've got this weird bug. 02:50:36 -!- bhyde [~bhyde@c-24-61-81-138.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: bhyde] 02:51:19 sawjig [~sawjig@gateway/tor-sasl/sawjig] has joined #lisp 02:51:53 *sw2wolf* in fact i still canot understand why ECL canot run stumpwm if it meets ANSI standards ... 02:51:56 -!- p_nathan [~Adium@w142148.wireless.fsr.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:52:15 Is there CLX for ECL? 02:52:36 Bike: i test ECL using CLX from QL 02:55:43 pierpa [~user@host2-220-dynamic.47-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 02:56:07 *sw2wolf* i doubt ECL is NOT a completely ANSI compatible CL implementation. Of course i wish i were wrong :P 02:56:23 CLX has a lot of non-ansi stuff. 02:56:32 not to mention pre-ansi. 02:57:25 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@50-196-148-102-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 02:57:27 Bike: except ECL, SBCL,CCL and CLISP all work great using CLX from QuickLisp 02:57:46 kpreid [~kpreid@50-196-148-102-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 02:58:11 There is CLX for ECL - what is it? 02:58:27 drmeister: really ! where ? 02:58:50 sbcl, ccl, and clisp all have clx implementations 02:58:52 It's in the source tree ecl/src/clx 02:59:14 drmeister: it's an xlib. 02:59:28 Bike: you mean for Xwindows? 02:59:45 yeah. 02:59:57 Bike: i just use general CLX from QuickLisp to build stumpwm 03:00:18 Yes, but CLX has to have implementation-specific stuff in it. 03:00:18 Oh yeah, I see xrender.lisp, xvidmode.lisp ... 03:01:11 -!- paddymahoney [~paddymaho@198-84-186-52.cpe.teksavvy.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:01:26 right ! maybe The CLX from QL doesnot work well in ECL 03:02:20 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@50-196-148-102-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has left #lisp 03:02:49 kpreid [~kpreid@50-196-148-102-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 03:02:55 The CLX+ECL can build stumpwm. But the produced image cannot run 03:04:28 drmeister: How to make ECL produce native code instead of byte code ? 03:04:54 Jubb [~Jubb@pool-108-28-62-61.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:05:41 Abagnale [Abagnale@ip70-171-87-200.no.no.cox.net] has joined #lisp 03:05:56 sw2wolf: ECL can produce bytecode? I thought it only did native or C. 03:06:08 Anybody in here an AutoCAD user? 03:06:30 linse [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1177917089.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 03:06:52 sw2wolf: Expose the LLVM library within CL and write a compiler that generates LLVM intermediate representation which is just-in-time compiled into native code. 03:07:00 -!- sellout-1 is now known as sellout 03:07:32 sellout-1: ECL has a bytecode compiler and a compiler that generates C which must be compiled by an external C compiler. 03:07:59 Ah. Its apparently been too long since Ive used it. 03:09:32 -!- Abagnale [Abagnale@ip70-171-87-200.no.no.cox.net] has quit [Client Quit] 03:11:16 walter [~walter@c-24-218-217-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:12:10 *sw2wolf* How can i use clx from ECL instead of QL's clx to build stumpwm ? 03:13:31 -!- walter [~walter@c-24-218-217-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 03:13:47 walter [~walter@c-24-218-217-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:14:56 -!- Czechton [~Czechton@cpc8-lewi14-2-0-cust162.2-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:15:57 farzi [~farzzz@1.38.25.112] has joined #lisp 03:21:51 -!- agumonke1 [~agu@8.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:24:15 doomrobo [~doomrobo@unaffiliated/doomrobo] has joined #lisp 03:25:25 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-71-237-234-93.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 03:26:38 joekarma [~joekarma@70-36-57-169.dyn.novuscom.net] has joined #lisp 03:26:38 -!- joekarma [~joekarma@70-36-57-169.dyn.novuscom.net] has quit [Client Quit] 03:26:44 CatMtKing [~CatMtKing@wsip-98-189-16-109.oc.oc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 03:32:34 joekarma [~joekarma@70-36-57-169.dyn.novuscom.net] has joined #lisp 03:35:20 Xach, do you keep the pencil and paper while writing the program? I'm new to programming :S 03:37:20 -!- joekarma [~joekarma@70-36-57-169.dyn.novuscom.net] has quit [Client Quit] 03:40:39 -!- CatMtKing [~CatMtKing@wsip-98-189-16-109.oc.oc.cox.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 03:42:42 Juanito-Jons [~jreynoso@189.139.167.225] has joined #lisp 03:43:40 CatMtKing [~CatMtKing@wsip-98-189-16-109.oc.oc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 03:43:51 -!- CatMtKing [~CatMtKing@wsip-98-189-16-109.oc.oc.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:44:53 -!- cdidd [~cdidd@95-27-40-143.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:45:02 momo-reina [~user@anon-nl-48.nordvpn.com] has joined #lisp 03:46:17 teggi [~teggi@113.172.59.16] has joined #lisp 03:53:10 joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@c-98-208-37-38.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:55:55 CatMtKing [~CatMtKing@wsip-98-189-16-109.oc.oc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 04:01:18 -!- Jubb [~Jubb@pool-108-28-62-61.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:01:34 -!- sellout [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:02:12 p_nathan [~Adium@rrcs-173-197-180-74.west.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:02:57 dnolen [~user@cpe-74-64-61-245.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:03:03 p_nathan1 [~Adium@98.145.119.253] has joined #lisp 04:04:42 -!- CatMtKing [~CatMtKing@wsip-98-189-16-109.oc.oc.cox.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 04:05:26 -!- victor_lowther [~victor.lo@2602:306:36c6:f7e0:848a:3085:a8f0:2f3c] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:06:48 -!- p_nathan [~Adium@rrcs-173-197-180-74.west.biz.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:07:12 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-70.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:08:07 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-70.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:14:36 yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.168] has joined #lisp 04:17:57 fmeyer [~fmeyer@186.220.32.235] has joined #lisp 04:18:11 -!- linse [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1177917089.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: zzzz] 04:19:22 -!- p_nathan1 [~Adium@98.145.119.253] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:19:28 -!- dnolen [~user@cpe-74-64-61-245.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:23:15 joekarma [~joekarma@S0106602ad090cd68.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 04:31:36 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 04:32:47 When I try to quickload clsql-uffi in SBCL on OS X I get the error message "Argument X is not a REAL: NIL" the first I time I try in a newly started image and "The function CLSQL-UFFI:ATOL64 is undefined" the second. Has anyone experienced this issue and come up with a solution? I'm trying to get elephant working again. It broke after a recent quicklisp update. 04:33:48 -!- farzi [~farzzz@1.38.25.112] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:35:12 -!- Keshi [~Keshi@unaffiliated/keshi] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 04:37:14 -!- momo-reina [~user@anon-nl-48.nordvpn.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:37:45 -!- bananagram [~notabot@c-98-198-236-112.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:39:27 -!- erikc [~erikc@CPE00222d53fe78-CM00222d53fe75.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Quit: erikc] 04:39:34 mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-71-163-43-88.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:39:54 I've just confirmed that this error is not affecting CCL... Seems isolated to SBCL only at this point, which on my system is SBCL 1.1.3.14-5405406 04:40:51 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 04:44:12 ECL error: http://paste.lisp.org/display/136356 04:44:21 -!- findiggl` [~user@67.40.30.237] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 04:50:53 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@1.145.113.188] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:51:00 DataLinkD2 [~DataLinkD@1.145.113.188] has joined #lisp 04:54:08 -!- doomrobo [~doomrobo@unaffiliated/doomrobo] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:00:30 asvil [~user@91.151.182.61] has joined #lisp 05:01:09 sykopomp [~sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 05:03:38 -!- joekarma [~joekarma@S0106602ad090cd68.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: joekarma] 05:14:52 -!- DataLinkD2 [~DataLinkD@1.145.113.188] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 05:16:51 DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@101.171.203.178] has joined #lisp 05:19:02 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@186.220.32.235] has quit [Ping 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[~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 07:20:49 -!- toekutr [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:22:50 -!- Vicfred [~Futaba@187.206.119.1] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:26:37 yati [~yati@122.169.87.29] has joined #lisp 07:27:09 yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.168] has joined #lisp 07:28:03 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:28:12 -!- yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.168] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 07:28:50 yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.168] has joined #lisp 07:29:46 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:30:01 -!- yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.168] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 07:31:45 hi guys 07:34:22 Hi. I'm using SLIME/SBCL with emacs24 to learn CL. Is there a way to know what type of symbol I'm typing in addition to the function signature? For example, DEFUN is a macro, IF is a special operator, APPLY is a function, etc 07:34:50 (describe 'apply) 07:35:07 Or, in SLIME. Go to the symbol and press C-c C-d C-d 07:35:20 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-70.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 07:36:41 Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 07:37:04 yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.168] has joined #lisp 07:37:30 -!- yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.168] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 07:38:07 loke, Thanks :) 07:38:13 yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.168] has joined #lisp 07:38:24 glad to be of help 07:39:48 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-70.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:41:47 -!- yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.168] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 07:45:15 -!- sw2wolf [~czsq888@171.216.96.202] has left #lisp 07:46:01 ehu [~ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 07:46:29 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 07:47:30 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-88.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:48:01 yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.168] has joined #lisp 07:48:32 -!- yacks 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[~jtza8@105-236-248-88.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 10:00:42 Adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 10:00:45 -!- balle [~basti@pulsar.inf.ethz.ch] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:00:52 b1rkh0ff [~b1rkh0ff@46.36.167.250] has joined #lisp 10:02:30 yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.168] has joined #lisp 10:03:07 -!- bitonic [~user@ppp-232-137.27-151.libero.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:03:13 -!- yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.168] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 10:04:03 bitonic [~user@ppp-232-137.27-151.libero.it] has joined #lisp 10:07:08 -!- schatten [uid10221@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-jxfcukbfsluaxqlr] has left #lisp 10:07:55 dto [~user@pool-96-252-62-13.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 10:09:36 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:12:53 balle [~basti@pulsar.inf.ethz.ch] has joined #lisp 10:16:18 Okay, from what I understood of variables, they pretty much are like Python's names and bindings where, unlike C++ references, assigning to a variable results in the named variable referring to the assigned entity, and not the modification of the previous referrent. Did I miss something here? 10:16:59 -!- eldariof [~CLD@215-134-158-212.static.bluetone.cz] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 10:17:05 yes, variables and their values are different entities 10:17:40 That's relief coming from Python :) 10:17:58 przl [~przlrkt@46.231.183.162] has joined #lisp 10:18:33 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-88.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:18:34 i think it's the same in c++ too 10:18:51 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 10:18:57 not references, references are special 10:20:35 Is there a way to get ECL to keep all C preprocessor macros as symbols in some package? I'd like to have a quick way to lookup names and get their numeric value. 10:20:42 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-88.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 10:21:13 stassats`, yeah C++ refs themselves are always const. You can only change the referrent through them. 10:23:01 -!- b1rkh0ff [~b1rkh0ff@46.36.167.250] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 10:23:59 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 10:24:21 bitonic` [~user@ppp-232-137.27-151.libero.it] has joined #lisp 10:24:31 -!- bitonic [~user@ppp-232-137.27-151.libero.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:24:46 -!- leb [~leb@c-24-7-83-224.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leb] 10:24:47 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 10:25:54 tekai [~tekai@f054023052.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 10:26:36 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-88.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:27:57 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-88.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 10:28:07 -!- arrsim [~user@mail.fitness2live.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:28:14 -!- ahoops [~ahoops__@121.96.14.223] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 10:29:25 -!- bitonic` [~user@ppp-232-137.27-151.libero.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:31:37 spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 10:32:37 -!- leoncamel [~leoncamel@219.143.150.16] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 10:32:48 leoncamel [~leoncamel@124.126.218.38] has joined #lisp 10:32:58 Gruu_ [~Gruu@213.211.132.86.static.edpnet.net] has joined #lisp 10:34:00 aajmakin [aajmakin@kosh.org.aalto.fi] has joined #lisp 10:35:54 ehu [~ehu@109.38.96.244] has joined #lisp 10:35:59 -!- ehu [~ehu@109.38.96.244] has quit [Client Quit] 10:37:11 bitonic` [~user@ppp-232-137.27-151.libero.it] has joined #lisp 10:38:38 Harag [~Thunderbi@105.227.55.223] has joined #lisp 10:40:10 and then people complain about ")))" in lisp programs ... http://blog.michellebu.com/2013/03/21-nested-callbacks/ 10:40:10 ehu [~Erik@31.136.190.170] has joined #lisp 10:41:19 rudi_ [~rudi@1x-193-157-250-253.uio.no] has joined #lisp 10:41:49 ahoops [~ahoops__@121.96.14.223] has joined #lisp 10:41:53 -!- rudi_ is now known 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quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:43:53 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-88.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 11:44:05 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-71-237-234-93.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:44:43 gko [~user@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 11:47:36 DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@101.175.65.1] has joined #lisp 11:49:35 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@101.175.65.1] has quit [Client Quit] 11:52:48 With gzip-stream, is there a way to use a list when calling (read-sequence list stream) where list is a list (cons cells) ? Method stream-read-sequence calls aref on sequence... 11:54:09 get the maintainer to fix their implementation, or submit a patch. 11:54:52 -!- dto [~user@pool-96-252-62-13.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:57:22 ehu [~Erik@31.136.190.170] has joined #lisp 11:58:18 ellusioner [ellusioner@c-411ee755.05-23-6c6b7013.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 11:58:33 -!- danlentz [~danlentz@2601:c:3680:1c:6888:1838:478c:1454] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:59:46 -!- yrk [~user@pdpc/supporter/student/yrk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:00:52 -!- segv- [~mb@dslb-094-223-001-158.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:01:06 groovy2shoes [~cory@unaffiliated/groovebot] has joined #lisp 12:01:20 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 12:05:01 -!- zmyrgel [~zmyrgel@a91-153-150-75.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:05:42 Czechton 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[Client Quit] 12:22:31 -!- Ferada [~user@pd95cbf63.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:22:50 casion [~AdmiralBu@pool-71-99-141-240.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 12:23:36 -!- ehu [~Erik@31.136.190.170] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:23:38 -!- mcsontos [mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-mjxllnhlqevskohh] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 12:25:26 pavelpenev [~quassel@194.141.47.12] has joined #lisp 12:30:02 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@72.53.112.90] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 12:30:55 lemoinem [~swoog@72.53.112.90] has joined #lisp 12:31:31 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-88.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 12:32:54 -!- ahoops [~ahoops__@121.96.14.223] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 12:32:58 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-88.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 12:33:08 mcsontos [mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-imeqhcrrqryypweo] has joined #lisp 12:35:33 ahoops [~ahoops__@121.96.14.223] has joined #lisp 12:39:38 Just added a method for cons is OK for my case. 12:40:40 -!- leo2007 [~leo@111.161.47.175] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:41:35 -!- gko [~user@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 12:47:33 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-88.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:48:44 -!- bitonic` [~user@ppp-232-137.27-151.libero.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:49:26 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-88.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 12:51:28 segv- [~mb@dslb-094-223-001-158.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 12:53:13 -!- Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:53:18 -!- ahoops [~ahoops__@121.96.14.223] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 12:55:26 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:56:16 -!- antgreen [~green@dsl-173-206-64-86.tor.primus.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:56:34 -!- yeltzooo6 [~yeltzooo@ec2-54-241-122-161.us-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com] has quit [K-Lined] 12:58:30 -!- Harag [~Thunderbi@105.227.55.223] has quit [Quit: Harag] 12:59:02 victor_lowther [~victor.lo@2602:306:36c6:f7e0:848a:3085:a8f0:2f3c] has joined #lisp 12:59:39 Harag [~Thunderbi@105.227.55.223] has joined #lisp 12:59:47 -!- Harag [~Thunderbi@105.227.55.223] has quit [Client Quit] 13:01:26 -!- _veer [~veer@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 13:01:49 gko [~user@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 13:03:09 yeltzooo [~yeltzooo@ec2-54-241-122-161.us-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com] has joined #lisp 13:05:09 yrk [~user@c-50-133-134-220.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:05:20 -!- yrk [~user@c-50-133-134-220.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 13:05:20 yrk [~user@pdpc/supporter/student/yrk] has joined #lisp 13:05:25 axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-88-224.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:06:20 _tca [~user@h151.25.91.207.static.ip.windstream.net] has joined #lisp 13:08:03 agumonkey [~agu@8.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 13:09:35 cddr [user@2a01:7e00::f03c:91ff:feae:b02b] has joined #lisp 13:10:04 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 13:10:23 sirdancealot [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 13:10:54 How come pathnames are objects but times are multiple-values? I'm wondering when one should use one construct over the other 13:11:37 -!- victor_lowther [~victor.lo@2602:306:36c6:f7e0:848a:3085:a8f0:2f3c] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:11:48 cddr: universal-times are objects. 13:12:19 -!- axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-88-224.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.0] 13:12:35 cddr: i find it pretty awkward to use APIs that use lots of multiple values. i don't mind if they use multiple values for things that most of the time i ignore the extras and sometimes I really need them. 13:12:52 I don't know if there's a consensus opinion on the topic 13:14:59 -!- mcsontos [mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-imeqhcrrqryypweo] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:15:40 that's my experience aswell. multiple values for when it's just plain obvious (something returns a pair and it has to be relatively efficient) or when there's normally only one thing used and the rest is of debug / nice-to-know nature 13:15:41 -!- spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:18:58 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:19:13 dnolen [~user@cpe-74-64-32-223.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:19:23 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 13:21:37 -!- sirdancealot [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:23:08 sambio [~sambio@190.57.227.109] has joined #lisp 13:23:23 mgile [~mgile@74-92-220-177-Colorado.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 13:24:06 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-88.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:25:54 leo2007 [~leo@111.161.47.175] has joined #lisp 13:25:58 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-70.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:26:08 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-88.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 13:28:01 cdidd [~cdidd@95.27.112.156] has joined #lisp 13:29:50 normanrichards [~normanric@70.114.215.220] has joined #lisp 13:30:24 Keshi [~Keshi@unaffiliated/keshi] has joined #lisp 13:31:36 mcsontos [mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-mwrkhowezcrzfvgw] has joined #lisp 13:31:56 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 13:32:53 ignas [~ignas@office.pov.lt] has joined #lisp 13:35:08 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@70.114.215.220] has quit [] 13:41:29 ahoops [~ahoops__@121.96.14.223] has joined #lisp 13:41:37 Distr4ction [mark@41-132-22-106.dsl.mweb.co.za] has joined #lisp 13:41:44 LISP? 13:41:55 No. 13:42:15 lol 13:44:15 nha [~prefect@koln-5d814da5.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 13:45:08 -!- Myk267 [~myk@adsl-71-149-249-241.dsl.mtry01.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:45:47 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-88.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 13:46:02 ahhhh 13:46:34 exit 13:46:43 -!- Distr4ction [mark@41-132-22-106.dsl.mweb.co.za] has left #lisp 13:47:07 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:47:40 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-88.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 13:48:27 lol what was that 13:49:06 ahungry [~null@66.184.106.97] has joined #lisp 13:49:17 Fuxiang [~Fuxiang@180.143.239.241] has joined #lisp 13:49:24 -!- ahoops [~ahoops__@121.96.14.223] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 13:50:36 -!- EvW1 [~Thunderbi@a82-92-190-215.adsl.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: EvW1] 13:50:37 -!- hlavaty`` [~user@friedrichstrasse.knowledgetools.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:51:31 xani [~user@178.183.158.179.dsl.dynamic.t-mobile.pl] has joined #lisp 13:51:50 beyeran [~beyeran@p54A90D58.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 13:52:05 -!- asvil [~user@91.151.182.61] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 13:52:58 Denommus [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/denommus] has joined #lisp 13:54:34 ahoops [~ahoops__@121.96.14.223] has joined #lisp 13:58:11 hlavaty [~user@friedrichstrasse.knowledgetools.de] has joined #lisp 13:58:34 -!- Fuxiang [~Fuxiang@180.143.239.241] has quit [Quit: ] 13:59:23 EvW 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14:32:43 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-88.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 14:36:06 nydel [~nydel@ip72-197-245-1.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 14:36:44 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-71-163-43-88.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 14:39:10 -!- cgore [~user@108-209-245-92.lightspeed.stlsmo.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 14:40:12 v__ [~v@61.173.105.92] has joined #lisp 14:40:19 i wanna be able to, at REPL, input (remind-me 180) then that sets a timer that'll do (print 'reminder) after 180 seconds, but right after i call (remind-me) the REPL comes back & the function runs, let's say, "in the background" -- could someone point me at whatever i need to be learning about in order to do things like this? 14:40:58 zophy [goldenligh@gateway/shell/devio.us/x-taodpbjphooqfjml] has joined #lisp 14:41:08 nydel: Such things a "in the background" are going to be implementation specific, of course. 14:42:28 spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 14:42:39 knob [~knob@76.76.202.244] has joined #lisp 14:42:40 But on a multi-threaded CL implementation, you should be able to use BORDEAUX-THREADS:MAKE-THREAD to do that example. 14:42:42 easye: but do i need to perhaps write a collection of scripts that i run from a shell such as bash? or can i do this sort of thing inside of a commonlisp implementation such as clisp or sbcl 14:42:50 findiggle [~user@173-10-106-172-BusName-Washington.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 14:43:25 nydel: yeah, you just start a thread that sleeps and then prints stuff 14:43:27 threads 14:43:32 that's what i need to look at 14:43:41 I don't see why you need to run things from a shell as long as what you want to do can be expressed in CL. 14:43:58 thank you dlowe, easye. i couldn't find what this idea is called. 14:44:06 Since threads aren't part of ANSI, you have to go with the contemporary abstraction, which in Quicklisp is BORDEAUX-THREADS 14:44:13 *easye* nods. 14:45:03 bitonic [~user@ppp-232-137.27-151.libero.it] has joined #lisp 14:46:28 i see the project on common-lisp net & a section in the cl cookbook. 14:47:36 nydel: You should check out quicklisp.org  very helpful for managing the libraries you need. 14:47:36 ideally i'd like to write a lambda or some-such form, and end it with an ampersand to indicate it should give me back the prompt and work as a thread, as with most unix cli 14:48:29 nydel: I suggest you fix your ideals 14:48:32 ah great i was able to quickload it, thanks sellout i was about to waste a lot of time 14:48:34 nydel: there is no portable way to do that. 14:49:11 fe[nl]ix: do you mean something similar to what H4ns has just said 14:49:54 nydel: (defmacro & (&body body) `(bt:make-thread (lambda () ,@body))) 14:51:42 H4ns: when i do (bt:make-thread (progn (sleep 60.0) (print 'minute\ later))) i don't, y'know, get the prompt back right away 14:51:55 is that not something i can expect to make happen 14:52:06 nydel: look at the macro that i have just pasted 14:52:16 nydel: it is not at all the same as wheat you have just pasted. 14:52:31 "what" 14:52:45 -!- snowylike [~sn@91-67-171-156-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de] 14:54:24 that macro is gorgeous, in that it does exactly what i wanted (though i'm not that concerned with the syntax being the same as common cli) 14:54:56 but if i do, say (sleep 60.0)& i am able to issue commands but they are not answered until sleep finishes 14:55:20 nydel: yes. that is because (sleep 60.0) is evaluated before & 14:55:33 nydel: and as i said, there is no portable way to change that. 14:58:49 hi 14:59:23 axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-88-224.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:59:25 H4ns: thank you, i see. if you'll excuse my ignorance here once more, could you perhaps give me an example of where a thread would be useful? if an obvious common situation comes to mind.. 14:59:42 nydel: your progn is being evaluated before your call to make-thread 14:59:53 CatMtKing [~CatMtKing@mobilenet1-4-158-95.bulk.ucr.edu] has joined #lisp 15:00:06 nydel: I might suggest you take a lisp tutorial before starting in on threading 15:00:47 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:01:14 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 15:02:19 fmeyer [~fmeyer@200-150-182-201.static-corp.ajato.com.br] has joined #lisp 15:02:27 nydel: http://paste.lisp.org/+2X7S 15:02:40 -!- sefe [~chebastia@c-9b72e255.015-51-7673741.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [] 15:04:37 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-88.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:05:02 bhyde: sheesh. thank you so very kindly. that couldn't be more exactly what i needed. 15:05:21 Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 15:05:48 -!- bhyde [~bhyde@c-24-61-81-138.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: bhyde] 15:06:26 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-88.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:10:05 tsuru` [~charlie@adsl-98-87-48-140.bna.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 15:10:13 rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 15:10:14 goodness that is great. thank you again. & dlowe thank you for the helpful suggestion, i will look into lisp tutorials. 15:12:26 nydel: try http://gigamonkeys.com/book/ 15:13:33 this looks perfect for my purposes. thank you, i appreciate it! 15:14:12 -!- bitonic [~user@ppp-232-137.27-151.libero.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 257 seconds] 15:14:18 -!- eldariof [~CLD@215-134-158-212.static.bluetone.cz] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 15:14:24 normanrichards [~normanric@rrcs-108-178-120-144.sw.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:14:52 farzi [~farzzz@1.38.28.5] has joined #lisp 15:17:00 -!- linse [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1177917089.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: zzzz] 15:17:23 drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has joined #lisp 15:18:07 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@200-150-182-201.static-corp.ajato.com.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:19:07 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:20:46 paddymahoney [~paddymaho@198-84-186-52.cpe.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 15:20:47 -!- farzi [~farzzz@1.38.28.5] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:21:36 farzi [~farzzz@1.38.28.5] has joined #lisp 15:21:46 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 15:22:13 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-71-237-234-93.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:25:20 Is is possible to do json queries using drakma? 15:25:20 15:25:28 of course 15:25:44 I tried a bit but could not get it to work: http://paste.lisp.org/display/136361 15:26:00 -!- farzi [~farzzz@1.38.28.5] has quit [Client Quit] 15:26:27 pegu: try :content instead of :parameters 15:26:44 H4ns: thanks! I'll try 15:28:18 H4ns: that for sure helped, it least I get something back, just have to decode it... 15:28:21 ehu [~Erik@109.34.216.132] has joined #lisp 15:28:53 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-88.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:29:23 Juanito-Jons [~jreynoso@177.224.214.151] has joined #lisp 15:31:02 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-88.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:32:31 H4ns: yes that was my data, encoded as a vector of character points 15:32:51 -!- Juanito-Jons [~jreynoso@177.224.214.151] has quit [Client Quit] 15:33:48 -!- zickzackv [~faot@port-92-198-30-130.static.qsc.de] has quit [Quit: Using Circe, the loveliest of all IRC clients] 15:33:52 -!- joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@c-98-208-37-38.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:34:00 pegu: it is probably encoded as utf-8. you'll have to convert it to a string and pass it to the json library to parse it. 15:34:49 joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@c-98-208-37-38.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:34:52 -!- nydel [~nydel@ip72-197-245-1.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Quit: quit] 15:35:04 H4ns: yes it is, I'll do that 15:37:31 -!- Cymew [~user@fw01d.snowmen.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:37:57 cic [~connolly@Catnip.AI.SRI.COM] has joined #lisp 15:39:52 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-71-237-234-93.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:40:40 -!- doomlord [~doomlod@host81-159-234-112.range81-159.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:45:17 H4ns: actually adding ("application" . "json") to drakma:*text-content-types* made it return a string which I can feed directly into decode-json-from-string 15:45:26 fmeyer [~fmeyer@200-150-182-201.static-corp.ajato.com.br] has joined #lisp 15:45:43 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:45:51 pegu: right. note that this may break if you use some encoding other than utf-8 in your lisp 15:46:13 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-88.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:47:36 -!- ISF_ec09 [~ivan@187.64.222.221] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:47:46 H4ns: yes I understand 15:48:31 -!- antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 15:48:31 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-88.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:49:31 -!- quazimodo is now known as fire_butt 15:50:35 ylabidi [~ylabidi@208.85.112.101] has joined #lisp 15:50:58 -!- spacefrogg_ [~spacefrog@unaffiliated/spacefrogg] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:55:54 CrLF0710 [~user@124.202.191.64] has joined #lisp 15:56:07 _d3f [~gnu@95.211.188.251] has joined #lisp 15:56:12 nan_ [~user@178.233.216.230] has joined #lisp 15:57:13 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-71-237-234-93.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:57:54 -!- przl [~przlrkt@46.231.183.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:58:09 hello, i quite like the cltl2 (the structure of the topics and maybe his style) but somewhere i don't remember now it was said that cltl1 more relevant than cltl2, which one should i read? 15:58:20 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 15:58:41 nan_: cltl2 is a good work describing a version of Common Lisp that is not the final version. 15:58:48 nan_: I dont think cltl1 is more relevant. Just read the hyperspec :) 15:59:44 antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 15:59:57 sellout-: hyperspec great and i use it everytime but i read a chapter from cltl2 and it just great, so i want to continue and read it all :) 16:00:54 nan_: I agree. I like cltl2 as well. Just remember that it describes something that is not quite CL. 16:00:57 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:01:15 danlentz [~danlentz@2601:c:3680:1c:2c6a:e98c:7987:be12] has joined #lisp 16:01:20 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-71-237-234-93.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:01:22 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 16:01:25 What does WALK-METHOD-LAMBDA do? It is a function called by MAKE-METHOD-LAMBDA (or something like it) in both SBCL and ECL CL. 16:02:24 Xach: i'll google if there is a reading guide for cltl2, thanks! 16:02:32 Myk267 [~myk@71.149.254.193] has joined #lisp 16:03:34 Indeed, there's a lot of material about lisp, and even after Common Lisp, given that nobody took the pain to update everything to ANSI Common Lisp, intelligent people can peruse non CL material and apply it to CL. Or even peruse CL material and apply it to emacs lisp programming, non-withstanding the unfortunate growing hostility I feel there. 16:03:39 nan_: i enjoyed reading cltl2 because the prose is livelier than the spec, but the spec is the only document really worth reading as a reference 16:04:20 przl [~przlrkt@46.231.183.162] has joined #lisp 16:05:21 mattrepl [~mattrepl@ssid-mason-secure-216.wireless.gmu.edu] has joined #lisp 16:05:25 Xach: indeed, and a lot of prose that's not 100% faithful to the CLHS is written about CL. Even if we like to nitpick, it's still useful to newbies and others. 16:06:01 Xach: i have one simple problem with hyperspec and that is the structure of it, say i want to read everything about multiple return values, in a book like cltl2 i can read it linearly but with hyperspec i can hardly find every function related to the subject 16:06:22 Yes, that's the "editorial" choice of this reference. 16:06:55 bhyde [~bhyde@50.12.146.82] has joined #lisp 16:08:00 nan_: if there was a more book-like navigation system for the spec, would that be an improvement for you? 16:09:01 Xach: if it doesn't make me click 1000 links to read about a single topic it would be just awesome 16:09:24 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-88.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 16:09:49 i use hyperspec more like a dictionary 16:11:27 What is the purpose of the :METHOD-CLASS option for DEFGENERIC? Why would anyone want to define methods of some other class than STANDARD-METHOD? 16:11:32 pierpa` [~user@host179-222-dynamic.46-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 16:11:35 nan_: Do you mean if the separation into sections was not on so many different HTML pages? 16:11:51 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 16:12:57 pierpa`` [~user@host64-198-dynamic.211-62-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 16:13:03 -!- ehu [~Erik@109.34.216.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:13:09 Xach: yes, you get lost too easily, there is for example HyperSpec/Front/Contents.htm, you pick a topic and more than *actual* rading you fight with recursive links. 16:14:35 nan_: It's not a style that bothers me much, but I can imagine it might bother others. It would be nice to have the spec in other pleasant formats. 16:14:36 -!- pierpa [~user@host2-220-dynamic.47-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:14:55 I've thought about what nice stuff could be done with the tex sources to generate something nice. 16:15:27 stardiviner [~stardivin@122.236.253.70] has joined #lisp 16:15:30 drmeister: afaik that's all answered in sonja's book.... 16:15:35 with examples.... 16:15:36 -!- pierpa` [~user@host179-222-dynamic.46-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:15:47 What is sonja's book? 16:15:54 oO 16:16:13 minion: keene 16:16:14 keene: No definition was found in the first 5 lines of http://www.cliki.net/keene 16:16:20 -!- stardiviner [~stardivin@122.236.253.70] has left #lisp 16:16:20 -!- bhyde [~bhyde@50.12.146.82] has quit [Quit: bhyde] 16:16:23 oop in lisp, sonja keene.... 16:16:37 drmeister: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0201175894 16:16:43 dunno if lisp/common-lisp in the title.... 16:17:54 If I had to guess, AMOP seems more likely than Keene to me. 16:18:16 -!- Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 16:18:41 Xach: not that annoying but one thing is that you follow tons of recursive links just to read a line at the end, i guess reformatting the book to inline such thing would definitely improvement for me but i am not into web/html/parsing and know near to nothing about that area 16:18:59 heh 16:19:38 Well, I'm trying to bootstrap a new common lisp implementation that I've written in C++, I'm hosting the ECL source code and I'm trying to mimic the behavior of ECL WALK-METHOD-LAMBDA which implements WALK-METHOD-LAMBDA in a very different way than how SBCL implements WALK-METHOD-LAMBDA. Do you think Sonya's book can help me? 16:19:45 closette is just a template, different compilers will implement it differently.... 16:19:49 patrickwonders [~patrickwo@user-38q42ns.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 16:19:52 drmeister: no. 16:19:53 i suppose.... 16:20:46 drmeister: i don't have a copy of amop here right now (wtf?), but in keene's book, i don't see a description of method-class. 16:20:59 drmeister: For a use case, I think ContextL uses custom method classes. 16:21:30 nan_: The HTML is generated from tex files. It could be fun to make something else from the tex files, too. 16:21:57 sellout-: I don't think that will help me. I'm trying to understand what WALK-METHOD-LAMBDA does. 16:22:49 I left my copy of AMOP at home today so I can't draw from that at the moment. 16:22:57 drmeister: I was just referring to Why would anyone want to define methods of some other class than STANDARD-METHOD? 16:23:27 Ah - thank's . 16:24:17 So ContextL is an extension of CLOS? 16:26:42 drmeister: Yeah, basically. Pascal has a few libraries that use the MOP in interesting ways. 16:27:36 Pascal is someones name and not the language - correct? 16:28:37 Pascal Costanza is the person 16:29:01 He wrote ContextL and closer-mop and AspectL 16:29:05 And other stuff 16:29:39 -!- jsucsy [~jsucsy@38.108.127.66] has left #lisp 16:30:08 Got it - thanks. 16:30:26 karswell [~user@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 16:31:14 isn't he a java afficionado tho ? 16:31:21 It looks like I'm deep down the rabbit hole. Google MAKE-METHOD-LAMBDA turned up a paper by Pascal Costanza titled: "make-method-lambda considered harmful". 16:31:33 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:32:28 I need to write a papter titled "Papers titled 'X considered harmful' considered harmful" 16:32:34 having read many blogs, i haven't met a thing in lisp that wasn't considered harmful once 16:33:49 farzi [~farzzz@1.38.30.1] has joined #lisp 16:34:09 jasom: I think it was already done 16:34:22 Does anyone know what EVAL-WITH-ENV is supposed to do wrt WALK-METHOD-LAMBDA in ECL? I've sent an email to Juanjo but if anyone here has any ideas I'd really appreciate their thoughts. 16:35:23 -!- teggi [~teggi@113.172.59.16] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:35:49 Well the paper points out how make-method-lambda can give different outcomes depending on whether it's interpreted or compiled. That may be part of my problem right now - so I'll agree with the "harmful" assessment. 16:35:58 -!- spacefrogg is now known as spacefrogg^ 16:36:26 slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-99-183-240-66.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:37:45 I'm not sure if that's my problem though - I'm trying to host about 30,000 lines of common lisp code that I didn't write on an unproven new Common Lisp kernel written in C++. 16:38:53 -!- przl [~przlrkt@46.231.183.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:38:54 bhyde [~bhyde@50.12.146.82] has joined #lisp 16:39:13 -!- _d3f [~gnu@95.211.188.251] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.0] 16:39:33 _d3f [~gnu@nl2.ovpn.to] has joined #lisp 16:40:22 Flame_Alchemist [~Flame_Alc@host21-99-dynamic.6-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 16:41:38 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@91.176.13.218] has joined #lisp 16:41:38 -!- Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@91.176.13.218] has quit [Changing host] 16:41:38 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 16:41:39 I am interpreting/compiling the last CLOS file "fixup.lsp" and I don't understand (and thus can't replicate) what EVAL-WITH-ENV is supposed to be doing in the following code: http://pastebin.com/eqXEjQpU 16:41:41 -!- bhyde [~bhyde@50.12.146.82] has quit [Client Quit] 16:44:02 ahoops [~ahoops__@121.96.14.223] has joined #lisp 16:44:47 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:45:19 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:46:10 sirdancealo2 [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 16:49:44 The EVAL-WITH-ENV function is in C (http://pastebin.com/EGFd7FLm) and in the call the EXECUTE argument is being passed as T while the comment above the call says it is nil - weird. 16:52:04 antgreen [~green@out-on-174.wireless.telus.com] has joined #lisp 16:52:35 przl [~przlrkt@46.231.183.162] has joined #lisp 16:54:21 I don't think the method should be evaluated here, so why would EVALUATE be T? The return value of the EVAL-WITH-ENV is ignored and this WALK-METHOD-LAMBDA only returns (values call-next-method-p next-method-p-p and in-closure-p) while the SBCL equivalent returns (values WALKED-LAMBDA call-next-method-p closurep next-method-p-p). 16:55:02 I am perplexed. 16:59:00 nialo [nialo@ool-44c53f01.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 17:01:07 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:01:31 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 17:04:02 farzi_ [~farzzz@1.38.25.114] has joined #lisp 17:05:58 -!- farzi [~farzzz@1.38.30.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:06:12 -!- farzi_ [~farzzz@1.38.25.114] has quit [Client Quit] 17:06:24 eldariof [~CLD@215-134-158-212.static.bluetone.cz] has joined #lisp 17:11:00 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:11:36 -!- ignas [~ignas@office.pov.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:13:42 -!- ck_ [~ck@dslb-088-068-142-102.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:15:33 -!- antgreen [~green@out-on-174.wireless.telus.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:20:28 -!- cdidd [~cdidd@95.27.112.156] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:22:18 cdidd [~cdidd@128-68-26-87.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 17:22:55 xcombelle [~xcombelle@AToulouse-551-1-61-55.w92-146.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 17:30:14 -!- zophy [goldenligh@gateway/shell/devio.us/x-taodpbjphooqfjml] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 17:31:15 Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 17:31:30 zajn [~zajn@c-67-182-61-90.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:32:09 -!- leoncamel [~leoncamel@124.126.218.38] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:34:12 -!- ZombieChicken [~weechat@unaffiliated/forgottenwizard] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:35:51 So typically most of the common lisp standard is written in common lisp, right? 17:36:23 Based on the most primitive functionality implemented in some other language? 17:36:47 eh, nope. 17:37:03 So how is it done then? 17:37:06 -!- joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@c-98-208-37-38.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:37:32 I mean, the common lisp standard is a text document. Most (but not all) common lisp implementations are written in CL 17:37:46 clisp and ECL are in C, abcl is in Java 17:38:20 The ones in CL have a C layer for retrieving important OS info that's otherwise hard to get, but then they go all CL 17:38:25 Sure, but some of the functionality must be implemented in the language the compiler or interpreter was written in. 17:39:01 That compiler is often CL 17:39:06 jack_rabbit: The compiler was written in CL. Sure, the _first ever_ CL interpreter/compiler wasnt written in CL, but no reason current ones cant be. 17:39:15 I see. 17:40:26 Okay, but even when CL is that *other* language, the primitive functions are written into the compiler, and then the rest of the spec is written in the *new* implementation of CL, right? 17:41:01 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-192-76.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:44:13 Usually the bootstrap process is to have an existing CL run the new CL impl's compiler, which then compiles itself into a new binary. 17:44:13 -!- victor_lowther [~victorlow@143.166.116.80] has quit [Quit: Leaving IRC - dircproxy 1.2.0] 17:45:17 jack_rabbit: you'd be right if you were thinking about interpreters, but once you have compiled code, there's no necessity to stick with the original language 17:46:50 -!- ahoops [~ahoops__@121.96.14.223] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 17:47:33 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-192-76.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:49:17 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-192-76.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:49:24 jack_rabbit: a compiler is a program that transforms source into machine code. It should be obvious that such a program can be written in any language capable of outputing machine code 17:50:07 which is any language, seeing how it's just a bunch of bits 17:50:10 <_tca> who says it has to be machien code 17:50:21 _tca: me 17:50:28 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@static-217-133-17-91.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:50:43 <_tca> so if you compile to an intermediary its not a compiler? 17:51:03 _tca: it's not a complete compiler, or it's a compiler targeting the VM of the IL 17:51:06 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:51:55 _tca: but that starts to get into semantic details that are unimportant to jack_rabbit's issue 17:53:16 dtm` [~dtm@adsl-69-110-3-246.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 17:54:29 ahoops [~ahoops__@121.96.14.223] has joined #lisp 17:55:26 Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 17:57:47 I'm just trying to determine what part of the spec is written into the compiler, and what part of it is compiled BY that compiler. 17:58:21 typically, anyway. 17:58:22 jack_rabbit: depends on the implementation 17:58:46 jack_rabbit: for example LOOPS is an implementation of CLOS written in CLOS-free common lisp, and a lot of implementations used to use that 17:58:49 Okay. That's all my question really was. I must've phrased it poorly. 17:58:52 goondog [18b32b27@gateway/web/freenode/ip.24.179.43.39] has joined #lisp 17:59:18 -!- ahoops [~ahoops__@121.96.14.223] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 17:59:22 jack_rabbit: but for performance reasons implementations have moved away from that 17:59:41 hey ive written a function to use a binary search mechanism to find the size of an array, but its p slow. is there some function that will just give me the dimensions of an array? 17:59:56 goondog: array-dimensions is one 17:59:58 goondog: array-dimensions 18:00:01 KingsKnighted [~quassel@c-98-202-60-177.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:00:02 clhs array-dimensions 18:00:08 curse these obscure historical names 18:00:17 god, of course its something simple like that 18:00:22 oh noes, who killed specbot 18:00:22 thanks 18:01:26 alright, well that works perfectly, of course 18:01:31 -!- minion [~minion@tiger.common-lisp.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:01:37 in thanks, i'll leave this: http://hackershelf.com/search/?q=lisp&calling_url=%2Fbrowse%2F 18:01:41 some lisp ebooks 18:01:41 jack_rabbit: you can look at the sbcl and ccl source to get an idea; abcl ecl and clisp are less useful since they are not written in CL; IIRC clisp builds a very minimal lisp vm in C and impelements everything on top of that 18:01:45 -!- goondog [18b32b27@gateway/web/freenode/ip.24.179.43.39] has quit [Client Quit] 18:01:49 minion [~minion@tiger.common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 18:02:27 specbot [~specbot@tiger.common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 18:02:36 -!- Subfusc [~Subfusc@tjenen.de] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net] 18:03:02 -!- spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:03:46 jack_rabbit: and then there are gray areas; if the compiler completely rewrites literal calls to mapcar, but still provides an implementation so that you can pass it around as a function, then it's both 18:04:12 hm, something wrong with bot's passwords 18:04:24 -!- specbot [~specbot@tiger.common-lisp.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:04:24 -!- arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-uadueqjvriqgfvkv] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:04:24 -!- minion [~minion@tiger.common-lisp.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:05:45 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@rrcs-108-178-120-144.sw.biz.rr.com] has quit [] 18:06:06 -!- Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:08:33 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-192-76.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:10:48 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-192-76.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 18:11:17 Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 18:11:53 *stassats`* not sure what had happened 18:12:04 SaidinWoT [84aaa463@gateway/web/freenode/ip.132.170.164.99] has joined #lisp 18:12:08 -!- SaidinWoT [84aaa463@gateway/web/freenode/ip.132.170.164.99] has quit [Client Quit] 18:13:19 ahoops [~ahoops__@121.96.14.223] has joined #lisp 18:13:36 ebobby [~fms@199.21.86.106] has joined #lisp 18:16:13 both minion and specbot have lost their passwords 18:18:00 -!- ahoops [~ahoops__@121.96.14.223] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 18:18:23 -!- re-enact85 [~re-enact8@c-67-182-147-102.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: re-enact85] 18:19:00 jasom: that's why you might see something like (defun car (x) (car x)) in the internals. 18:19:09 and lisppaste didn't 18:19:25 did somebody find a backdoor in the code i recently released? 18:20:04 or did i mess up changing their passwords 18:21:06 toekutr [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 18:21:50 -!- nialo [nialo@ool-44c53f01.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 18:22:16 ahoops [~ahoops__@121.96.14.223] has joined #lisp 18:24:06 -!- yati [~yati@122.169.75.174] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:24:09 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-192-76.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:24:36 oO 18:24:56 -!- Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 18:25:01 joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@mail.concordusapps.com] has joined #lisp 18:25:55 -!- casion [~AdmiralBu@pool-71-99-141-240.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: casion] 18:26:15 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-192-76.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 18:26:39 cgore [~user@108-209-245-92.lightspeed.stlsmo.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:27:04 -!- ahoops [~ahoops__@121.96.14.223] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 18:27:48 -!- sambio [~sambio@190.57.227.109] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:28:27 waenesses81 [~waenesses@c-67-182-147-102.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:28:38 Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 18:29:50 -!- Keshi [~Keshi@unaffiliated/keshi] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com] 18:34:32 bhyde [~bhyde@50.12.146.82] has joined #lisp 18:34:43 -!- sirdancealo2 [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:35:32 ahoops [~ahoops__@121.96.14.223] has joined #lisp 18:36:14 -!- sellout- is now known as sellout 18:38:35 -!- cades [~mac@114-32-245-7.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 18:38:52 spacefrogg_ [~spacefrog@unaffiliated/spacefrogg] has joined #lisp 18:40:06 -!- ahoops [~ahoops__@121.96.14.223] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 18:40:29 -!- cddr [user@2a01:7e00::f03c:91ff:feae:b02b] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:40:35 ahoops [~ahoops__@121.96.14.223] has joined #lisp 18:40:57 how can i splice a functions return value to another functions argument list when first function returns multiple values, (defun f1 () (values 1 2 3)) (defun f2 (a b c)..), i'd like to be able to (f2 (f1)) 18:41:31 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:41:42 <_tca> alexandria:multiple-value-compose 18:42:06 -!- leo2007 [~leo@111.161.47.175] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:42:16 specbot [~specbot@tiger.common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 18:42:17 minion [~minion@tiger.common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 18:42:17 <_tca> nan_: ^ 18:42:26 nice 18:42:41 -!- bhyde [~bhyde@50.12.146.82] has quit [Quit: bhyde] 18:42:47 _tca: *cheers thanks 18:43:10 <_tca> nan_: in that specific case you can juse use multiple-value-call i think 18:43:24 *jasom* was thinking about that code-golf from yesterday; the CA algorithm isn't as short as I would like: (set'l'(1))(loop(print l)(set'l`(1,@(maplist(lambda(x)(logxor(car x)(or(cadr x)0)))l))))) 18:44:06 _tca: for this one yes but i need more than those arguments 18:44:46 jasom: copy/paste bug? I think there's one ) too many. 18:44:55 jasom: what should that do? 18:45:03 flip214: yeah 18:45:13 m7w [~chatzilla@178.172.214.57] has joined #lisp 18:45:19 sohakes [~sohakes@186.207.76.28] has joined #lisp 18:45:20 -!- specbot [~specbot@tiger.common-lisp.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:45:20 flip214: not a copy/paste issue, but it's non terminating so never read the ) 18:45:20 -!- minion [~minion@tiger.common-lisp.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:45:34 stassats`: serpinski's triangle-ish 18:45:51 stass it loops forever because that's fewer characters than dotimes 18:46:03 -!- sohakes [~sohakes@186.207.76.28] has left #lisp 18:46:45 ikki [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/ikki] has joined #lisp 18:46:54 -!- ahoops [~ahoops__@121.96.14.223] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 18:47:54 -!- waenesses81 [~waenesses@c-67-182-147-102.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 18:48:15 stassats`: it uses a cellular automaton of xor with a single neighbor to generate it 18:50:02 Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 18:51:48 jasom: (push 1 l) is shorter than (set'l'(1)) 18:51:53 ophthalmoscopic8 [~ophthalmo@c-67-182-147-102.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:52:30 drmeister: CLOS is very very very very customizable, with the MOP. (Meta Object Protocol). Too bad the MOP API is not standardized, nonetheless, most CLOS implementations provide it, and there's closer-mop to cover over the differences. 18:52:56 ASau [~user@46.115.87.255] has joined #lisp 18:52:59 jasom: (logxor(pop x)(or(pop x)0)) 18:54:00 erikc [~erikc@CPE00222d53fe78-CM00222d53fe75.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 18:54:06 drmeister: so, each generic function can have methods of its own class of method. 18:54:35 stassats`: (push 1 l) is also not allowed 18:54:44 who allows what? 18:54:50 stassats`: sbcl or clisp 18:55:07 and why isn't it allowed? 18:55:08 drmeister: this is not something that's standardized either, I don't recall anything explicitely about it from CLHS, but in CL you can have different kind of funcallable objects, not just functions. 18:55:11 l is not bound 18:55:19 oh, i'm using * 18:55:21 not l 18:55:42 nice! 18:55:43 drmeister: The MOP lets you define new classes of funcallable objects, (that you can use just like a function), or indeed, nwe classes of methods. 18:55:58 (methods are not exactly functions, they have more constraints) 18:56:35 antgreen [green@nat/redhat/x-daqiobxwamczdzdq] has joined #lisp 18:58:49 drmeister: Sonja Keene's book would give you the specifications of the MOP and help you understand CLOS a lot. That would help you understand ECL CLOS code and debug/adapt it. But if you are in a hurry, you can probably do without reading it (it's small anyways). 18:59:00 ahoops [~ahoops__@121.96.14.223] has joined #lisp 18:59:08 -!- ophthalmoscopic8 [~ophthalmo@c-67-182-147-102.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 19:00:15 jasom: my final submission before i got bored: (do((l'(1)(print`(1,@(loop for(a b)on l collect(logxor(or b 0)a))))))(())) 19:00:50 jack_rabbit: of course, lisp is written in lisp. For example, in sbcl: (defun car (x) (car x)). 19:01:11 _tca: you are indeed right, m-v-c takes care of that too 19:01:55 jack_rabbit: yes, it's strange. The trick is that then sbcl has a lisp compiler written in lisp, that compiles calls to (car x) into inline machine language, so that it can compile (defun car (x) (car x)) without generating an infinite recursion. 19:02:08 ZombieChicken [~weechat@unaffiliated/forgottenwizard] has joined #lisp 19:03:31 jack_rabbit: check http://home.pipeline.com/~hbaker1/MetaCircular.html ; there's no telling what the implementors chosed to consider a primitive, but reading the sources of the implementations. 19:04:28 -!- ahoops [~ahoops__@121.96.14.223] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 19:04:57 jack_rabbit: for example, sbcl implementors chosed to define car as a primitive. But you could as well write an implementation where defstruct is the primitive and (defstruct (cons (:constructor (cons car cdr)) (:conc-name nil)) car cdr) + some stuff. 19:07:04 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-179-141.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:07:28 jack_rabbit: notice however that half of clisp is written in lisp, notably the clisp compiler. And since it targets a lisp VM, it's one of the simpliest lisp compiler you can find (beside minimal-compilation compilers of course). 19:09:43 -!- danlentz [~danlentz@2601:c:3680:1c:2c6a:e98c:7987:be12] has quit [Quit: danlentz] 19:10:15 danlentz [~danlentz@c-68-37-70-235.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:10:30 -!- ezakimak [~nick@ns1.nickleippe.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:10:39 ahoops [~ahoops__@121.96.14.223] has joined #lisp 19:12:00 porterage05 [~porterage@c-67-182-147-102.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:12:06 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-179-141.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 19:12:33 I can't believe I'm actually managing to make a game in CL 19:14:29 leb [~leb@c-24-7-83-224.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:15:08 dioxirane [~polychaos@unaffiliated/dioxirane] has joined #lisp 19:15:13 Denommus: what kind of game? 19:15:57 Denommus: /join #lispgames 19:16:22 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:17:56 erikc: an action RPG. I started some days ago 19:19:01 -!- Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:19:23 pjb: Looks like Keene's book has only 4 pages on the MOP. 19:19:36 -!- am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:20:13 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 19:22:04 drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has joined #lisp 19:23:11 -!- xani [~user@178.183.158.179.dsl.dynamic.t-mobile.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:23:32 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-192-76.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:24:28 xani [~user@178.183.158.179.dsl.dynamic.t-mobile.pl] has joined #lisp 19:24:34 -!- dioxirane [~polychaos@unaffiliated/dioxirane] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:24:38 ezakimak [~nick@72.250.219.55] has joined #lisp 19:24:51 specbot [~specbot@tiger.common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 19:25:01 *stassats`* somehow goofed up changing minion and specbot passwords and lost them 19:25:17 got specbot's restored, minion's not registered to me 19:25:23 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-192-76.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:25:29 minion [~minion@tiger.common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 19:25:33 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-179-141.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:25:37 maybe it's on nyef 19:26:05 pjb: Thank you very much! I'll check out Sonja's book based on your and others recommendation. I'm learning about this stuff in a weird way - from the inside out. 19:26:41 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:28:28 dioxirane [~calpuff@unaffiliated/dioxirane] has joined #lisp 19:32:19 I got my libraries copy of AMOP and I read the definition of MAKE-METHOD-LAMBDA a few times. 19:32:52 -!- dioxirane [~calpuff@unaffiliated/dioxirane] has left #lisp 19:33:11 It looks like it takes a method and returns a lambda that accepts two arguments - the list of arguments for the method and a list of next methods. 19:33:46 -!- techlife [techlife@218.59.113.120] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:34:10 Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 19:34:31 drmeister: "make-method-lambda considered harmful" : www.european-lisp-workshop.org/archives/08.costanza.pdf 19:35:02 This lambda returned by MAKE-METHOD-LAMBDA is chained together with others by COMPUTE-EFFECTIVE-METHOD to create the effective method function - correct? 19:35:02 -!- Corvidium [~cosman246@24.56.241.224] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:35:09 techlife [~jimmy@218.59.113.120] has joined #lisp 19:35:09 -!- techlife [~jimmy@218.59.113.120] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 19:35:44 techlife [~jimmy@218.59.113.120] has joined #lisp 19:35:45 -!- techlife [~jimmy@218.59.113.120] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 19:35:50 Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 19:35:56 jasom: i couldn't leave it at that, now could i: (do((l'(1)(print`(1,@(mapcar'logxor l`(,@(cdr l)0))))))(())) 19:36:19 techlife [~jimmy@218.59.113.120] has joined #lisp 19:36:20 -!- techlife [~jimmy@218.59.113.120] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 19:36:38 drewc: I found and read that paper earlier today - I mentioned it earlier today in this channel and people weren't impressed by the harmfullness of it. Apparently if I could get a nickel for every paper written on some harmful feature of CL I'd have a lot of nickels. 19:36:40 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-179-141.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 19:36:54 techlife [~jimmy@218.59.113.120] has joined #lisp 19:36:55 -!- techlife [~jimmy@218.59.113.120] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 19:37:28 techlife [~jimmy@218.59.113.120] has joined #lisp 19:37:29 -!- techlife [~jimmy@218.59.113.120] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 19:37:31 drewc: In this case though the harm seems to be a difference in how make-method-lambda behaves in interpreted mode vs file-compiled mode - it may or may not be part of my current problem. 19:38:02 techlife [~jimmy@218.59.113.120] has joined #lisp 19:38:03 -!- techlife [~jimmy@218.59.113.120] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 19:38:39 techlife [~jimmy@218.59.113.120] has joined #lisp 19:38:40 -!- techlife [~jimmy@218.59.113.120] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 19:39:14 techlife [~jimmy@218.59.113.120] has joined #lisp 19:39:15 -!- techlife [~jimmy@218.59.113.120] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 19:40:06 techlife [~jimmy@218.59.113.120] has joined #lisp 19:43:34 -!- ahoops [~ahoops__@121.96.14.223] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 19:44:35 spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 19:45:45 The make-method-lambda description on page 207 of AMOP says "Either the function COMPILE, the special form FUNCTION or the function COERCE must be used to convert the lambda expression (to) a method function". The example on page 209 uses none of them or anything that even looks like COMPILE, FUNCTION or COERCE. 19:45:56 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-192-76.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:47:33 findiggl` [~user@67.40.30.237] has joined #lisp 19:47:58 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-192-76.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:48:39 Hmmm, closette doesn't even define MAKE-METHOD-LAMBDA - huh? 19:48:40 drmeister: m-m-l returns a lambda expression. The CLOS implementation eventually converts the sexpression to a function. 19:49:20 michaelusa [~yaaic@66-87-71-83.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 19:49:26 right, it's a lambda expression 19:49:41 dioxirane [~polychaos@unaffiliated/dioxirane] has joined #lisp 19:49:52 right after (declare (ignore environment)) or so 19:50:37 pkhuong: I see - I think I was getting confused by the ancillary function WALK-METHOD-LAMBDA which in ECL appears to use the bitcode compiler to walk the method and look for CALL-NEXT-METHOD and NEXT-METHOD-P forms. 19:51:06 -!- findiggle [~user@173-10-106-172-BusName-Washington.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:51:09 -!- michaelusa [~yaaic@66-87-71-83.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Client Quit] 19:51:26 wbooze: Are you referring to make-method-lambda in closette? If so - where is it defined as a lambda expression? 19:51:50 ehu [~ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 19:52:04 -!- findiggl` [~user@67.40.30.237] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:52:08 francogrex [~user@109.128.250.155] has joined #lisp 19:52:45 in defmethod on page 209, make method lambda right after (declare (ignore environment))....i already said 19:53:26 (merge 'vector vector-1 vector-2 (function do-nothing)) ? how 19:53:44 -!- CrLF0710 [~user@124.202.191.64] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:53:55 (defmethod make-method-lambda ........(declare (ignore environment)) `(lambda...... 19:55:01 Editors retitling papers with "considered harmful" considered harmful. 19:55:08 wbooze: Ah, sorry - I was referring to the closette implementation in appendix D of AMOP - I have an electronic copy of the source code - it doesn't define MAKE-METHOD-LAMBDA 19:55:25 oh 19:56:01 in other words how do I append two vectors in the order that they natuarally are 19:56:19 (concatenate 'vector #(1 2 3) #(a b c)) => #(1 2 3 a b c) 19:56:20 clhs concatenate 19:56:20 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_concat.htm 19:56:29 francogrex: (concatenate (coerce vector-1 'list) (coerce vector-2 'list))? 19:56:36 flip214: wrong. 19:56:47 direct on vectors ok 19:56:54 (concatenate 'list #(1 2 3) #(a b c)) => (1 2 3 a b c) ; if you want a list. 19:57:02 francogrex: concatenate works on sequences. 19:57:11 -!- xcombelle [~xcombelle@AToulouse-551-1-61-55.w92-146.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:57:25 (concatenate 'string #(#\a #\b) '(#\c #\d) "ef") => "abcdef" 19:57:31 ok 19:57:38 Wow, I didn't know that I can get a list from vectors this way. 19:58:08 hitecnologys: you can get a list from a vector (coerce vector 'list) 19:58:21 (map 'list 'char-code "Hello") => (72 101 108 108 111) ; is fun too. 19:58:38 (map 'string 'code-char '(72 101 108 108 111)) => "Hello" 19:58:49 Does anyone know what REGISTER-WITH-PDE does in ECL? What does the PDE stand for? 19:58:56 stassats`: I know about this, I didn't know about (concatenate 'string #(#\1 #\2 #\3) #(#\a #\b #\c) "lala") 19:59:07 drmeister: No idea. Grep for it in the sources. 19:59:12 partial differential equation? 19:59:32 maybe yes 19:59:43 dioxirane: context? 19:59:47 like ODE are Ordinary diff. eq.. :-) 20:00:23 Package Definition Environment? 20:00:30 Oh, I'm idiot. 20:00:35 std-compute-method-function, std-compute-effective-method-function, apply-method.... 20:00:43 minion: what does PDE stand for? 20:00:44 Pillar Dunelike Expressionist 20:00:54 That must be it. 20:01:17 sambio [~sambio@190.57.227.109] has joined #lisp 20:01:30 I thought those two questions were unrelated ._. 20:01:59 doomlord [~doomlod@host81-159-234-112.range81-159.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 20:04:09 <_8david> I was about to complain that she's spelled Sonya Keene, not Sonja, when I noticed that her name is stated as Sonya within the book, but on the cover page only, written as Sonja. Very curious. 20:04:22 pjb: ext:register-with pde is all over the ECL sources and it looks like it registers defuns, defmacros def..whatever.. with ... something. 20:04:33 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:04:35 <_8david> Just imagine you're sending a manuscript to a publisher, get everything typesetted and finished, and then they misspell your name on the cover... 20:04:37 I turned it into a macro that evaluates one of its arguments and everything seems to work. 20:04:58 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:04:59 -!- SeanTAllen [uid4855@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-fuulzfqdjbehhctg] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:05:01 -!- Adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:05:01 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:05:17 hi _8david :) 20:05:21 _8david: that would be very funny. 20:05:35 -!- varjag [uid4973@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-lqwneojgbhzikmbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:05:35 -!- stokachu [~stokachu@ubuntu/member/stokachu] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:05:45 -!- NimeshNeema [uid2689@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ivlnkvpknlrrubgv] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:06:04 <_8david> s/typesetted/typeset/ I suppose 20:06:36 -!- PuffTheMagic [uid3325@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-guimktxcdemgamps] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20:06:57 drmeister: cross your fingers :-) 20:07:00 stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-236-127.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 20:07:15 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:07:31 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 20:07:35 stokachu [~stokachu@50.58.87.197] has joined #lisp 20:08:09 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@ssid-mason-secure-216.wireless.gmu.edu] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 20:08:32 pjb: I've compiled 45 ECL source files out of the 46 I need to get CLOS to run - I think I'm ok. 20:09:14 97.82% ! 20:09:40 pjb: Yeah, but the last 2.18% is killing me. 20:10:07 Ah, 3 AM on clock, bedtime. Bye everyone. 20:10:17 -!- hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@94.137.48.157] has quit [Quit: hitecnologys] 20:11:19 And I'm pretty sure the problem isn't register-with-pde. 20:11:41 It's make-method-lambda 20:11:49 -!- ebobby [~fms@199.21.86.106] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:14:57 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-75-53.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:16:36 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@200-150-182-201.static-corp.ajato.com.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:17:09 mattrepl [~mattrepl@SSID-MASON-SECURE-216.wireless.gmu.edu] has joined #lisp 20:18:09 kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-106-0.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 20:18:56 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-192-76.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:19:22 pjb: why 97+41/50 and not 8803/90? 20:19:46 (/ 4500.0 46) 20:19:58 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:20:01 I used floats, since percentages are usually real numbers. 20:20:10 -!- Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:20:24 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 20:20:43 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-192-76.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 20:21:37 drmeister: i think make-method-lambda is a user code, the closetter version works without falling into method-lookup and implements things more loosely.... 20:22:50 since it has to bootstrap things....and some metacircurlarities are thrown out that way.... 20:23:09 What do you mean "user code"? 20:24:26 the one on page 209 is for a user implementing make-method-lambda with method-lookup after bootstrap, you can't have method-lookup before bootstrap....or you'll fall into metacircularities...afaik or as far as i understand.... 20:25:08 -!- przl [~przlrkt@46.231.183.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:25:14 and that's why you won't find an explicit make-mehtod-lambda method in closettes source.... 20:25:53 tho the functionality is there.... ensure-method, compute-em-function etc....it's all spread in there 20:25:58 -!- jdz [~jdz@85.254.212.34] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:27:36 -!- Vivitron [~Vivitron@pool-98-110-213-33.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:27:43 fmeyer [~fmeyer@200-150-182-201.static-corp.ajato.com.br] has joined #lisp 20:28:51 Vivitron [~Vivitron@pool-98-110-213-33.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:28:57 it's directly setting the :lambda-list slots of metaobject instances in the source, if you look carefully....and almost whole of closette is written that way.... 20:30:06 bhyde [~bhyde@c-24-61-81-138.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:31:30 spudchute [~one@static-50-43-16-216.bvtn.or.frontiernet.net] has joined #lisp 20:31:53 -!- spacefrogg_ [~spacefrog@unaffiliated/spacefrogg] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:32:00 Hmmm. 20:32:31 pjb: 2*3^2*5^3^23^-1 ia a great recurrring decimal (period 22). Good chioice! 20:32:38 after bootstrap methods are rare yes, but you can peek into the examples of the book etc.... 20:33:25 or into source of implementations...or into pcl.....? 20:33:43 -!- yrk [~user@pdpc/supporter/student/yrk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:33:49 no wait, closer-mop ? 20:34:06 yrk [~user@c-50-133-134-220.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:34:16 -!- yrk [~user@c-50-133-134-220.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 20:34:16 yrk [~user@pdpc/supporter/student/yrk] has joined #lisp 20:35:12 common-loops and flavours....are two keywords to recherce into i think..... 20:36:02 well pcl IS portable common-loops.... 20:36:08 you find it in sbcl.... 20:36:21 dunno if/who uses flavours....never seen it 20:37:12 Adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 20:37:59 So what does make-method-lambda do? 20:38:13 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-179-141.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:38:40 I've read page 207-209 a dozen times now. Understanding seems to elude me. 20:39:02 -!- tekai [~tekai@f054023052.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.2.1] 20:39:14 makes a method specialized to the lambda-list ? 20:40:14 Does it do anything with the method form or just the lambda-list? 20:40:24 -!- nullman [~nullman@c-75-73-150-26.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:40:58 ebobby [~fms@199.21.86.106] has joined #lisp 20:40:58 -!- rvirding [uid5943@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-oxyishfwamduloyj] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:41:04 i think just the lambda-list...dunno look again there in the code do you see anything ? 20:41:08 make-method-lambda is seriously magical 20:41:24 I would explain it to you, but I have a boring web form to fill out 20:41:30 just, don't feel bad about not understanding it 20:41:48 it does the magic to make call-next-method / next-method-p "just work" 20:42:07 -!- mcsontos [mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-mwrkhowezcrzfvgw] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:42:17 nullman [~nullman@c-75-73-150-26.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:42:38 Krystof: I'm implementing a new CL compiler and I'm struggling to understand what it does because I think something is wrong with my implementation of it. 20:42:41 ya, so method specialization.... 20:43:18 drmeister: OK, consider (defmethod foo ((x integer)) (1+ x)) 20:43:26 Got it. 20:43:27 somewhere in there, there's something like (lambda (x) (1+ x)), right? 20:43:35 Yup. 20:43:52 now consider (defmethod foo ((y fixnum)) (1+ (call-next-method))) 20:43:58 Ok. 20:44:07 somewhere in there, there's... what? (lambda (y) (1+ (call-next-method)))? 20:44:10 -!- pierpa`` [~user@host64-198-dynamic.211-62-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:44:21 Yes 20:44:30 ah, but it can't be that simple -- because what's call-next-method? 20:44:52 for this to work, the information about what the next method is must be available while executing any given method 20:45:09 I see the problem. You wrap it in an flet that defines call-next-method. 20:45:28 ok, so we can do (flet ((call-next-method (&rest args) ...)) (lambda (y) (1+ (call-next-method)))) 20:45:36 Yep. 20:45:41 so what's the ...? 20:46:05 -!- _d3f [~gnu@nl2.ovpn.to] has quit [Quit: !] 20:46:09 we're need an outer function, so that when the method function is called, the list of next methods can be supplied 20:46:27 Ok, so that's what it does. 20:46:47 so ok, let's say that when we call a method, we pass it two arguments: the list of actual arguments to the generic function, and the list of methods that come after this one 20:47:08 Now in ECL and SBCL make-method-lambda invoke a function WALK-METHOD-LAMBDA that is puzzling me. 20:47:30 (lambda (list-of-args next-methods) (flet ((call-next-method (&rest args) (funcall (car next-methods) (or args list-of-args) (cdr next-methods)))) ...)) 20:47:39 OK, so, doing this is hideously expensive 20:47:58 consing up a whole new list, basically interpreting all this stuff at runtime is bad 20:48:13 if the walker can prove that call-next-method is never called, plenty of this can be elided 20:48:28 (and next-method-p) 20:48:39 It seems to walk the method code looking for call-next-method and next-method-p and to figure out if the form contains either of those two within a FUNCTION special operator. 20:49:00 exactly 20:49:25 I see - so its an efficiency thing. 20:49:36 one annoying bit is that AMOP's interface forces us to cons the nml; we can't compute it on demand ;) 20:49:37 it does some other things, too, like checking whether any of the parameters are setfed 20:49:57 and does all kinds of clever slot-value optimizations 20:50:25 yes, I think you can do all of this without walking the method body if you don't care that your method calls suddenly become as slow as molasses 20:50:35 ECL doesn't seem to elide anything - it walks the code, sets CALL-NEXT-METHOD-P and NEXT-METHOD-P-P and IN-CLOSURE-P and ignores the first two and uses only IN-CLOSURE-P. 20:50:52 pkhuong: What is the nml? 20:50:55 next-method-list 20:51:03 I should be doing this stupid web form 20:51:12 -!- Flame_Alchemist [~Flame_Alc@host21-99-dynamic.6-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:51:47 Krystof: Thank you very much - that helped a lot. 20:52:54 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-192-76.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:53:06 maybe the in-closure-p is the part where the efficiency is implemented then..... 20:53:11 erg [~erg@li32-38.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 20:54:26 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-192-76.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 20:54:53 no wait, he said the walk alone ensures efficiency.... 20:55:12 Well here is the ECL make-method-lambda function: http://pastebin.com/0xt1MPZp 20:55:17 There is not much to it. 20:55:53 The walk-method-lambda is what's been driving me nuts. 20:56:23 the walker can also modify the form, if you're unlucky 20:56:48 but it's not supposed to! 20:56:52 Here is the walker: http://pastebin.com/5WU4SmPf 20:57:11 -!- spudchute [~one@static-50-43-16-216.bvtn.or.frontiernet.net] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.3.1] 20:57:17 yeah, ok, that's not very interesting 20:57:18 What's been driving me nuts is the use of SI::EVAL-WITH-ENV to walk the method-lambda. 20:57:34 tekai [~tekai@f054023052.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 20:57:42 that's just ECL magic 20:57:55 It sounds like its evaluating the method lambda within an environment but I don't think it's doing that at all. 20:58:19 yeah, it's more like it's compiling the method lambda, but with a custom walker rather than a normal one 20:58:59 It think its running the bytecode compiler and the *code-walker* dynamic variable is causing each form that is compiled to be passed to the CODE-WALKER function. I can't figure out how they suppress evaluation though. 20:59:45 Krystof: what do you mean "with a custom walker"? 21:00:53 something has to know how to traverse Lisp code 21:01:08 in order to turn it into executable stuff 21:01:24 it suppresses evaluation through one of the flags passed to eval-with-env 21:02:06 Well, the last argument to eval-with-env is execute and contrary to what the comment says, EXECUTE=T in this invocation of eval-with-env. 21:02:50 Here's the code for eval-with-env: http://pastebin.com/EGFd7FLm 21:03:46 eval_form is invoked and calls the bytecode compiler. I can't see anything that suppresses compilation or evaluation. 21:04:18 But it really SHOULDN"T be evaluating or compiling here right - just walking and looking for CALL-NEXT-METHOD ... 21:04:52 bananagram [~bot@c-98-198-236-112.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:04:55 It doesn't make sense to evaluate the method-lambda in WALK-METHOD-LAMBDA. 21:05:00 ellusioner [ellusioner@c-411ee755.05-23-6c6b7013.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 21:05:13 -!- dotemacs [uid801@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-thypakhrazvsgvld] has quit [Write error: Broken pipe] 21:06:33 on the other hand, evaluating a lambda doesn't really hurt [modulo load-time-value]. 21:06:47 -!- m7w [~chatzilla@178.172.214.57] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 21:06:59 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-192-76.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 21:07:42 Dalek_Baldwin [~Adium@108-225-26-178.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:07:43 pkhuong: But what does evaluating a lambda without the correct arguments do? Is it a no-op? 21:07:55 a lambda expression evaluates to a function 21:08:02 no-one's /calling/ the function 21:08:48 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-192-76.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 21:08:55 -!- ahungry [~null@66.184.106.97] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:09:04 -!- dioxirane [~polychaos@unaffiliated/dioxirane] has quit [Quit: random walks to dumbness] 21:09:37 Here's an example of what it walks: ( CORE:LAMBDA ( CORE:CLASS ) ( CORE:DECLARE (CORE:FUNCTION-BLOCK-NAME MAKE-INSTANCES-OBSOLETE ) ) ( CORE:DECLARE ( CORE:IGNORABLE CORE:CLASS ) ) ( CORE:BLOCK MAKE-INSTANCES-OBSOLETE ( CORE:SETF ( CLASS-SLOTS CORE:CLASS ) ( CORE:COPY-LIST ( CLASS-SLOTS CORE:CLASS ) ) ) CORE:CLASS ) ) 21:10:40 -!- zajn [~zajn@c-67-182-61-90.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:10:53 I see - I fed it to SBCL (after removing the "CORE:" package names) and it returned --> # 21:11:37 Hmmm, and this returned function is just ignored so it's the code-walking side-effect that's important here. 21:13:57 Krystof: If I may bend your ear for another moment - or anyone elses for that matter. You mentioned "yeah, it's more like it's compiling the method lambda, but with a custom walker rather than a normal one" 21:14:57 I have written a CL compiler in CL which walks the code and generates calls to LLVM to generate intermediate representation (IR) code that is just-in-time compiled to native code. 21:16:51 Your comment made me think that I could separate out the code-walking functionality from the code-generation functionality - is that the case? ECL doesn't seem to do that, they seem to piggy-back an auxiliary code-walker on top of their compiler and the compiler walks the code, generates code and for each form it if the environment variable code_walker contains a function then that function is evaluated with the current form. 21:17:41 -!- clox [~user@rrcs-208-125-109-116.nys.biz.rr.com] has left #lisp 21:18:23 drmeister: abcl simply implements 3 code walkers: 1 for pre-compilation, one for compilation phase one and one for compilation phase 2 (which includes byte code generation) 21:18:36 it's not that hard to write a code walker. 21:18:56 basically you need to handle the regular special forms. 21:19:06 that's it. 21:19:38 abcl's treats some additional forms specially to improve performance of compiled output. 21:19:51 ehu: Since I've only ever written one that contains a lot of code-generation code it seems like a big job but you are most certainly correct. 21:20:08 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:20:35 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 21:22:57 But when I write the next one it would be nice to write one that is general and supports plug-and-play operations over the code being walked 21:23:02 drmeister: the code generation part is a lot of work indeed. 21:23:21 I just want to get this first one working with CLOS damnit! 21:23:23 but the actual walking part isn't that hord. 21:23:53 I don't get the problem, really. 21:24:17 What sort of interpreter does abcl use? 21:24:52 From what you say I imagine a quick pre-compilation followed by s-expression walking? 21:25:01 yes. 21:25:10 fenton [~fenton@m121-202-251-52.smartone.com] has joined #lisp 21:25:20 pre-compilation does basic macro expansion 21:25:33 dotemacs [uid801@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-nqceunchmspfphdb] has joined #lisp 21:25:41 I have a straight up s-expression walker - no pre-compilation. I've toyed with the idea of basic macro expansion and indexed lookup of lexical variables. 21:25:50 and from there it walks tokenized s-expressions. ie, it doesn't need to figure out the symbols every time. 21:26:27 What do you mean by figure out the symbols every time? 21:26:42 Do you mean lookup lexical variables? 21:26:44 normanrichards [~normanric@rrcs-108-178-120-144.sw.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:26:46 currencly every var reference means a variable lookup, but not indexed. 21:27:14 (the current implementation of the lexical environment is a linked list of variables) 21:27:43 Got it. My lexical environments are linked lists of arrays of variables. 21:28:06 Alongside each array is a map of symbols to array indices. 21:28:34 does that get you better performance? 21:28:36 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-192-76.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 21:29:02 what I try to do is to cache references to index variables and the like. 21:29:13 ehu: I really haven't benchmarked it yet. I'm just trying to get CLOS to work. 21:29:14 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@200-150-182-201.static-corp.ajato.com.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 21:29:33 that way, repeated variable references don't need to be looked up again. 21:29:52 -!- fenton [~fenton@m121-202-251-52.smartone.com] has quit [Client Quit] 21:30:01 That's an idea. I had not thought of applying that to variables. 21:30:21 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-192-76.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 21:30:30 And you don't have tagged pointers - correct? I may have asked you that a long time ago - or someone told me. 21:30:42 PuffTheMagic [uid3325@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-dycqgiriheqshumr] has joined #lisp 21:30:42 ok. well, our compiler doesn't contain any special handling for clos. 21:30:50 we don't have tagged pointers, no. 21:31:06 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 21:31:11 the evaluator/interpreter doesn't have special handling either. 21:31:46 ehu: I'm hosting the ECL CL source code - so I have to provide low level support for whatever they provide low-level support. I have to do a lot of software archeology as well. 21:31:53 ehu: you don't have tagged pointers... Java does (: 21:32:08 pkhuong: true. 21:32:10 Houl [~Parmi@unaffiliated/houl] has joined #lisp 21:32:18 ehu: Where did you get your CL source code from? Did you write it from scratch? 21:32:58 NimeshNeema [uid2689@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-hnwfovkjzjhdlkfl] has joined #lisp 21:32:59 well, that was silly, /me figured how he managed to lose minion's password, when changing i wrote SET PASSWORD old-password new-password, instead of just new-password 21:33:00 drmeister: I inherited it from Peter Graves who wrote most of ABCL's sources. 21:33:20 drmeister: but he copied most of the CL sources from SBCL, ECL and others. 21:33:21 using "old-password new-password" as the password worked, yay 21:33:30 morphling [~stefan@gssn-4d003ac6.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 21:34:59 drmeister: the Java code is unique to ABCL's implementation - or at least most of it. 21:35:13 drmeister: a lot of the CL code isn't new though. 21:35:17 ehu: Ah. I'm lifting ECL source straight-up. Does abcl use the same CLOS code as ECL? 21:35:18 Bike [~Glossina@67-5-248-45.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 21:35:22 varjag [uid4973@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-fdwmtndzlgdjoobu] has joined #lisp 21:35:27 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@rrcs-108-178-120-144.sw.biz.rr.com] has quit [] 21:35:28 drmeister: but a lot of it has been modified to be able to run on ABCL. 21:35:29 AeroNotix [~xeno@aboe60.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 21:35:36 *stassats* changes email to his on minion, for more easier password recovery on the next fuck up 21:35:37 SeanTAllen [uid4855@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-rdpbvgdcwmyeahzs] has joined #lisp 21:35:50 -!- minion [~minion@tiger.common-lisp.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:35:50 -!- specbot [~specbot@tiger.common-lisp.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:36:02 drmeister: actually, no. ABCL uses Closette as its CLOS, modified to support the AMOP. 21:36:02 minion [~minion@tiger.common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 21:36:04 -!- antgreen [green@nat/redhat/x-daqiobxwamczdzdq] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:36:10 ehu: I'm trying to modify the code as little as possible. 21:36:13 with parts implemented in Java. 21:36:29 _veer [~veer@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 21:36:42 specbot [~specbot@tiger.common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 21:37:08 ehu: Really? I had closette running months ago. I went with ECL CLOS because ECL builds conditions and other stuff on top of it and I was worried I'd run into problems building those on top of closette. 21:37:23 I'm not sure what the source of ECL's CLOS is, but I'm pretty sure ABCL's is the first CLOS with AMOP support derived from closette. 21:37:29 yes. really. 21:37:51 oh 21:37:52 eheh 21:38:06 So what is the difference between AMOP and what is implemented in closette? 21:38:32 rvirding [uid5943@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-govqkesleurwdhiq] has joined #lisp 21:38:39 Closette simply doesn't implement the protocol specified in AMOP. 21:38:53 also, lots of optimizations 21:38:57 I thought they were one and the same yesterday. 21:39:11 oh, AMOP? Not so much optimizations -- yes, incompleteness 21:39:17 But closette is an appendix in AMOP. 21:39:18 no they aren't.... 21:39:19 drmeister: AMOP even says closette isn't complete... 21:39:34 it's not even all of CLOS, is it? 21:39:38 Krystof: right. optimizations are the difference between PCL and Closette. 21:39:39 Bike: I read that but I didn't appreciate what it meant. 21:41:01 Bike: it's not all of CLOS indeed: it misses the long form of DEFINE-METHOD-COMBINATION 21:41:07 Ok, so all the stuff in chapter 5 of AMOP is AMOP and the stuff in appendix D of AMOP (closette) implements a subset of it? 21:41:54 ohnoitsavram [~user@CPE-60-225-105-159.hhui3.cht.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 21:42:31 Closette implements most but not all of CLOS and it doesn't really implement AMOP. 21:44:16 And where is AMOP described? The second half of the AMOP book (section II - I guess) is titled "A Metaobject Protocol for CLOS" - is that the full description of AMOP? 21:44:42 from what I understand, yes. Are those chapters 5 and 6? 21:44:43 -!- v__ [~v@61.173.105.92] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:44:51 v__ [~v@61.173.107.214] has joined #lisp 21:44:54 drmeister: http://www.alu.org/mop/index.html the relevant chapters. 21:44:59 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:46:02 Yes, those are chapters 5 and 6. Chapter 5 "Concepts" Chapter 6 "Generic Functions and Methods" - these are not very descriptive chapter titles - they are the last two chapters in the book. Following those are appendices A-E. 21:46:28 -!- ylabidi [~ylabidi@208.85.112.101] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 21:46:56 Bike: That looks like chapter 5 and 6 from the AMOP book. 21:47:01 -!- eldariof [~CLD@215-134-158-212.static.bluetone.cz] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:47:18 Ok, so I finally see some daylight between AMOP and closette. 21:47:28 It is. 21:47:35 ehu: Where did you get your condition code from? 21:48:39 seems like it comes from SBCL. 21:48:50 handler-bind, handler-case, restart-bind, restart-case and the ancillary code. 21:48:55 Hmmm. 21:49:10 zophy [goldenligh@gateway/shell/devio.us/x-drxbygqzarnvmbfh] has joined #lisp 21:49:11 -!- zophy [goldenligh@gateway/shell/devio.us/x-drxbygqzarnvmbfh] has quit [Client Quit] 21:49:18 I wasn't brave enough to slice/dice/mix/match the code like that. 21:49:46 -!- toekutr [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:49:58 the handler and restart stuff doesn't even need a working CLOS, necessarily 21:50:08 toekutr [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 21:50:56 Bike: That may be. I had trouble evaluating how difficult it would be to implement without clos. 21:51:10 they'r 21:51:31 Anyway, I need generic functions - whatever - I'm not turning back now. Augh. 21:51:52 e basically just control forms. you'd need CLOS for coercing to conditions but not for just passing them up a chain of handlers and all 21:52:49 normanrichards [~normanric@rrcs-108-178-120-144.sw.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:53:06 zophy [goldenligh@gateway/shell/devio.us/x-yatlvsonkiaslkzw] has joined #lisp 21:54:07 nialo [nialo@ool-44c53f01.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 21:54:50 sdemarre [~serge@194.81-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 21:54:59 I've got to run and catch a train. 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