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[~user@175.0.175.1] has joined #lisp 02:51:43 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@70.114.215.220] has quit [] 02:52:41 agumonkey [~agu@45.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 02:55:01 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Quit: kcj] 02:55:54 ahungry [~null@99-40-10-216.lightspeed.livnmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:57:11 hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@109.120.33.127] has joined #lisp 02:59:10 Hi everyone. 02:59:22 sabayonuser [~sabayonus@116.24.102.130] has joined #lisp 02:59:38 -!- sabayonuser is now known as hyoung 03:01:23 I need some help: (with-open-file (file "test.txt") (prin1 '(1 2 3) file)) says that file is not a character stream... but stream-chatacter-type says it's character and :element-type 'character doesn't work. What's wrong? 03:01:53 hitecnologys: :direction :output maybe 03:02:49 I'm a moron, thanks. 03:03:11 what implementation gave you that error? 03:03:59 sbcl 03:04:19 It's strange because it always worked without :direction :output for me. 03:04:41 hm, i get a type error about stream not being for output 03:04:51 -!- hyoung [~sabayonus@116.24.102.130] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:08:04 Lol 03:08:31 I have slime-connect to stumpwm but (trace ...) always return false ? 03:08:31 sw2wolf, memo from ogamita: when CLX was written, keyboards didn't have numeric keypads yet. 03:09:05 minion: so we need to update the CLX now 03:09:07 you speak nonsense 03:09:36 nonsense ? 03:09:52 minion is a robot. 03:10:09 and trace's result is implementation-dependent unless you're doing (trace) 03:10:10 :) 03:10:51 yes, i am running a CCL built stumpwm 03:11:06 1.9 just released 03:11:33 i am testing it now 03:13:02 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 257 seconds] 03:15:18 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-127-80.lns20.bne4.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 03:16:05 -!- ebobby [~fms@199.21.86.106] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 03:16:40 -!- googol [~matthew@lal-99-123.ResHall.Berkeley.EDU] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:28:25 rubenrubz [~rubenrubz@pool-71-108-72-136.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:29:44 yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.168] has joined #lisp 03:29:56 sabayonuser2 [~sabayonus@116.24.102.130] has joined #lisp 03:30:06 -!- sabayonuser2 is now known as hyoung 03:34:36 zajn [~zajn@c-67-182-61-90.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:35:11 http://beta.common-lisp.net/beta/2013/03/08_betacommon-lispnet-is-up.html and http://common-lisp.net is redirecting. Almost there! 03:35:26 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@195.225.68.249] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:37:50 findiggle [~kirkwood@50-194-56-154-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 03:37:57 cfy [~ilisp@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 03:38:28 -!- setmeaway [setmeaway3@183.106.96.8] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 03:38:54 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-70.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:39:36 zajn_ [~zajn@c-67-182-61-90.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:39:44 -!- zajn [~zajn@c-67-182-61-90.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:44:28 -!- impomatic [~digital_w@158.195.125.91.dyn.plus.net] has quit [Quit: http://corewar.co.uk] 03:45:05 setmeaway [setmeaway3@119.201.52.130] has joined #lisp 03:45:18 Bacteria [~Bacteria@115-64-180-132.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 03:48:37 -!- oticat` [~oticat@36-229-165-70.dynamic-ip.hinet.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 03:50:29 -!- Jubb [~Jubb@pool-108-28-62-61.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:54:48 Corvidium [~cosman246@24.56.228.105] has joined #lisp 03:56:01 Jubb [~Jubb@pool-108-28-62-61.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:56:08 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 03:58:20 normanrichards [~normanric@mobile-166-137-146-185.mycingular.net] has joined #lisp 04:09:48 -!- cfy [~ilisp@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:10:07 Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 04:10:20 looks like there's a race condition in hunchentoot -- incrementing the number of requests being processed happens in the taskmaster thread, not in the acceptor thread, but is used in the acceptor context to determine if things are being processed. 04:10:22 oticat` [~oticat@36-229-169-169.dynamic-ip.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 04:10:40 only matters during shutdown -- but means some user connections will be dropped without a proper response. 04:12:00 -!- am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:18:15 -!- oticat` [~oticat@36-229-169-169.dynamic-ip.hinet.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 04:20:39 oticat` [~oticat@36-229-173-38.dynamic-ip.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 04:22:05 -!- oticat` [~oticat@36-229-173-38.dynamic-ip.hinet.net] has quit [Client Quit] 04:29:44 oticat` [~oticat@36-229-173-199.dynamic-ip.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 04:30:15 <|3b|> drewc: might link an english license if the rest of the site is in english 04:31:08 -!- thomas_yzj [~user@175.0.175.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:32:07 <|3b|> drewc: also, "CANNOT INCLUDE FILE about.org" 04:38:30 -!- techlife [techlife@60.212.33.102] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:42:44 techlife [techlife@60.212.33.102] has joined #lisp 04:43:16 Fare: where is uiop again? I'm trying to simulate a March quicklisp. 04:43:39 pulled all asdf and quicklisp dependencies out of our core system so I can finally try this clean monofasl thing 04:44:20 but still have dependencies on uiop -- uiop:run-program looks like the best bet in the running of external programs dept. 04:44:51 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-70.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:45:28 -!- oticat` [~oticat@36-229-173-199.dynamic-ip.hinet.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 04:46:57 skc [~skc@bzq-79-176-126-211.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 04:47:16 shifty [~user@114-198-34-246.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 04:47:39 -!- stopbit [~stopbit@c-69-140-100-176.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:47:39 -!- agumonkey [~agu@45.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:48:03 oticat` [~oticat@114-25-197-62.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 04:49:33 or is the procedure just to git clone the whole asdf from common-lisp.net, then pull out the uiop directory? (while waiting for (ql:quickload :uiop to work from March quicklisp)? 04:50:37 skc_ [~skc@bzq-79-176-126-211.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 04:50:54 -!- skc_ is now known as tsetumel 04:51:40 -!- skc [~skc@bzq-79-176-126-211.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:52:34 stopbit [~stopbit@108-166-97-185.static.cloud-ips.com] has joined #lisp 04:52:48 youlysses [~user@75-132-7-80.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 04:54:25 gendl, it's in the asdf.git 04:54:29 -!- oticat` [~oticat@114-25-197-62.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 04:54:37 or as a tarball in the asdf archives/ directory 04:54:58 oticat` [~oticat@114-25-197-62.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 04:55:16 -!- youlysse` [~user@75-132-7-80.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 04:55:18 ok thanks. Sorry i know you already told Xach up above, but scrolled off the top of my window 04:55:26 yes, uiop:run-program was a vast effort to obsolete all the other half-baked run-program's out there. 04:55:38 you want the tarball? 04:55:49 -!- tsetumel [~skc@bzq-79-176-126-211.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:56:20 I got the asdf.git already and pulled out the uiop/ 04:56:40 http://common-lisp.net/project/asdf/archives/ 04:57:06 beware from git, there's the issue with version.lisp-expr 04:57:13 it's a symlink in git 04:57:56 oh yes i see that. 04:58:22 that would have burned me in about 45 seconds, thanks... 04:58:53 :) 04:59:16 I know only because I burnt myself too many times 05:03:29 -!- Jubb [~Jubb@pool-108-28-62-61.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 05:03:30 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-70.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:12:46 -!- casion [~AdmiralBu@pool-71-99-141-240.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: casion] 05:13:11 -!- qptain_Nemo [~qN@89.207.216.209] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:21:23 -!- bananagram [~bot@c-98-198-236-112.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 05:22:36 anyone up to help me with a bit of interface design? 05:23:05 looking for the name of a method that takes a representation of a data structure as a sexp and builds the data structure object. 05:23:16 e.g. an alist -> a hash-table 05:23:24 a list -> a pure "vector" 05:23:25 etc. 05:23:45 constraint: it has to make sense when adding the name of the data structure as a suffix 05:23:49 as in 05:24:01 empty-fifo-queue 05:24:43 make- create- instantiate- 05:25:35 cook- 05:25:46 spawn- 05:25:47 bake- 05:26:11 hatch- 05:28:32 make- seems to be the simplest choice 05:29:11 Fare: you're just looking for nomenclature? you already know the "design" you want, i think. 05:29:51 samebchaase: but "make-hash-table" is already taken 05:29:57 Jubb [~Jubb@pool-108-28-62-61.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:30:09 oh. 05:30:16 (and "make-vector" is taken by gdl ;) 05:31:16 you want something which connotes "make-and-populate-with-the-sexp-I-am-giving-you" 05:31:41 the "and populate" is what makes it a bit different from a plain "make," isn't it 05:32:08 create-from-sexp- 05:32:22 sexp-to- 05:32:28 better 05:33:44 the "->" in symbol names is generally frowned upon isn't it? 05:36:55 -!- nirman is now known as schatten 05:37:11 Well, it's popular in scheme. 05:37:37 I think that generic functions make a->b less attractive than simply saying b. 05:38:23 -!- schatten is now known as nirman 05:38:44 Fare: do you want to make names for all these combos, or do something like in asdf with operation classes 05:39:54 in IPS, only one name - in OO style, on name-suffix for each class. 05:40:26 i.e. for the empty method, in IPS, it takes an interface as first parameter 05:40:50 in OO style, there is one separate function per class. 05:41:51 so which style do you want for what you are doing now (I assume this is for lil?) 05:41:55 yes, I wanted to avoid make- because of the filling of contents 05:42:19 sexp-to- but in often it will be a list to or alist to , etc. 05:42:49 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-70.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:43:13 lists and alists are sexps, aren't they? 05:43:27 lisp-form-to- 05:43:28 I was thinking about create instantiate reify unmarshall intern internalize 05:43:49 encode 05:43:56 current name from-entries is utterly unsatisfactory 05:44:04 more like decode 05:44:15 create-from-form 05:44:47 form-to ? 05:45:16 <|3b|> deserialize? 05:45:35 and what to name the opposite (no suffix needed -- it's not a constructor -- constructors are magic in OO, in case you didn't notice) 05:45:43 (they are NOT magic in IPS) 05:45:57 but it's not really serializing 05:46:12 *|3b|* would expect intern- to return same object if called multiple times with similar forms, which doesn't sould like what it does 05:46:20 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@mobile-166-137-146-185.mycingular.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:46:55 -!- Vivitron [~Vivitron@pool-98-110-213-33.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: trivial-irc-0.0.4] 05:47:46 problem with intern -- the name without prefix is taken, and so clashes in IPS. 05:48:01 yes, intern it is doubly not. 05:48:14 <|3b|> maybe marshall if not serialize? 05:48:24 I thought of marshall 05:48:51 I still prefer create so far -- because most uses I have of it so far are to create new objects from a source representation. 05:49:08 e.g. prepopulated hash-tables. 05:49:55 Canonicalization? 05:50:07 anyone use slime + emacs + tmux? i'm having an issue where CTRL + UP is not registered for scrolling through the repl history buffer 05:51:28 ahungry: yes. same issue here. 05:55:14 akovalen` [~user@195.18.46.21] has joined #lisp 05:55:37 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@92.46.25.3] has joined #lisp 05:55:37 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@92.46.25.3] has quit [Changing host] 05:55:38 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 05:56:13 should I call my class with a trivial fifo queue simple-fifo-queue or fifo-queue ? 05:56:17 or just fifo ? 05:56:39 -!- akovalenko [~user@195.18.46.21] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:56:45 trivial-fifo ? 05:57:17 significant-fifo 05:57:25 consequential-fifo 06:01:53 -!- nightfly [~sage@sagenite.net] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.7] 06:02:09 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:02:41 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:02:42 nightfly [~sage@sagenite.net] has joined #lisp 06:05:35 generally people don't say lifo-stack 06:06:50 just "fifo" or "queue" should be enough, maybe? 06:08:51 so, March quicklisp is not going to have the asdf/bundle stuff? 06:09:12 he is staying with 2.26 for quicklisp? 06:09:40 sometimes when using slime, arglists stop displaying in the minibuffer seemingly until i restart emacs. can i fix this? 06:10:05 M-x slime-arglist still works, too. 06:12:03 yes, I expect quicklisp to be last to update asdf. 06:12:15 in a few months 06:13:06 I'm more worried about whether asdf will make it to next sbcl release, or at least the one after that. 06:13:08 so I can wedge it in there myself in the meantime 06:13:14 put the new asdf.lisp in quicklisp/ 06:13:15 compile it, 06:13:20 I already missed 1.1.5 by not being ready enough. 06:13:34 and put it in the appropriate cache/asdf-fasls/ 06:13:39 1.1.5 ? 06:13:49 wukefe [~wukefe@cpe-74-73-11-126.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 06:13:51 sbcl 1.1.5 stayed with asdf 2.26 06:14:08 oh. 06:14:20 so is there a more canonical way to put a newer asdf in 06:14:34 if you just update the asdf.lisp there, maybe update the version in setup.lisp, and rm -rf the quicklisp/cache, you should be fine 06:15:04 as long as my implementation's one is old enough to auto-update to the quicklisp one 06:15:14 or my implementation's one is new enough to have the asdf/bundle stuff 06:16:01 oh i see if I update the version in setup.lisp i can force it to auto-update even if my implementation's one is newer than 2.26 06:16:02 quicklisp always updates to its own if the implementation's is too old 06:16:34 yup - too old compared to the version number in setup.lisp 06:18:12 oh, nevermind, it was just a stray ( fooling some reader 06:19:39 -!- wukefe [~wukefe@cpe-74-73-11-126.nyc.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 06:20:47 qptain_Nemo [~qN@89.207.216.208] has joined #lisp 06:25:09 -!- akovalen` is now known as akovalenko 06:26:08 -!- sabalaba [~Adium@c-76-21-4-232.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:27:01 normanrichards [~normanric@70.114.215.220] has joined #lisp 06:28:16 pavelpenev [~quassel@85-130-11-8.2073813645.shumen.cablebg.net] has joined #lisp 06:28:27 agumonkey [~agu@45.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 06:28:34 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:29:22 -!- Fare [fare@nat/google/x-vvcmdaxidggjmidm] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 06:29:31 sirdancealo2 [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 06:33:56 -!- youlysses [~user@75-132-7-80.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 06:33:58 -!- ahungry [~null@99-40-10-216.lightspeed.livnmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:41:07 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:41:39 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:42:47 -!- Dalek_Baldwin [~Adium@108-225-26-178.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:43:02 youlysses [~user@75-132-7-80.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 06:45:51 -!- nialo [~nialo@ool-44c53f01.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:48:05 Fare [~fare@173-9-65-97-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 06:48:45 UIOP also supersedes trivial-backtrace 06:52:34 mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has joined #lisp 06:52:34 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has quit [Changing host] 06:52:35 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 06:58:13 -!- jack_rabbit [~kyle@c-98-253-60-75.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:58:34 What you need is a baroque package to balance out trivial. 07:00:41 waveman_ [~tim@101.174.161.170] has joined #lisp 07:03:12 -!- phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:04:10 browndawg [~browndawg@117.208.65.164] has joined #lisp 07:04:10 sdemarre [~serge@125.162-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 07:07:36 if this gets called while loading a fasl: 07:07:55 (funcall (read-from-string "asdf:system-source-directory")  ) 07:08:15 will it end up leaving the symbol asdf:system-source-directory in the fasl? 07:08:55 *|3b|* wouldn't expect anything you do while loading a .fasl to modify the .fasl being loaded 07:09:30 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:10:04 well maybe it happens when compiling the fasl 07:10:14 <|3b|> well, anything sane... i suppose you could open it and write to it by hand 07:10:19 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-127-80.lns20.bne4.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:10:37 -!- edgar-rft [~GOD@HSI-KBW-149-172-63-75.hsi13.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Quit: bleeding] 07:11:02 anyway i made a monolithic fasl, thinking it to be clean of symbols in asdf package, 07:11:25 but when I try to load it i get "there is no package named ASDF" 07:11:47 and trying to track down what symbol got leaked into there in asdf package 07:11:53 i don't see the actual symbol in the backtrace 07:12:03 you said the read-from-string is called during load? 07:12:07 <|3b|> evaluating that form while loading the .fasl would require the package ASDF to exist 07:12:19 <|3b|> if there is no such package, the that symbol couldn't exist 07:12:31 when I make the monofasl in the first place, asdf is there 07:13:05 <|3b|> the package ASDF must exist for that READ-FROM-STRING to succeed 07:13:37 sorry -- it's wrapped in (if (find-package :asdf) (read-from-string  ))) 07:14:09 i'll paste the code hold on... 07:14:10 angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has joined #lisp 07:15:21 Dalek_Baldwin [~Adium@71-84-34-33.dhcp.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has joined #lisp 07:16:04 http://paste.lisp.org/display/135912 07:16:20 -!- quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:16:22 so, that's the extent of my referring to anything in asdf package in the code. 07:16:42 when the code is compiled and fasl is generated, yes, asdf is there in the system. 07:16:51 but i'm hoping for no references to asdf to end up in the fasl. 07:17:03 now that I look at it, maybe the #+asdf things at the end are the culprit. 07:17:05 <|3b|> including all that #asdf stuff at the bottom? 07:17:10 <|3b|> #+asdf 07:17:11 quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 07:17:17 yes 07:17:21 -!- daniel` [~user@74-134-242-5.dhcp.insightbb.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 07:17:29 <|3b|> that check is at read-time, so those defclass get compiled into the .fasl 07:17:48 ooh, tricky. 07:19:07 I guess i can extract that part at the end, 07:19:15 and load it only when loading asdf 07:19:41 archonix [~unknown@78.90.30.16] has joined #lisp 07:19:48 <|3b|> yeah, stuff modifying how asdf works might be better in a separate system 07:20:20 -!- rubenrubz [~rubenrubz@pool-71-108-72-136.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:20:54 I think so. It needs to be packaged separately anyway so it can be loaded dynamically at the user site when/if they load asdf into their system 07:22:27 <|3b|> i think you can use :system-depends-on or something like that to specify it should load that before the current system, rather loading it by hand first 07:23:38 well i don't want it to load it when building the monofasl 07:24:18 i'm not sure the difference between :depends-on and :system-depends-on 07:24:46 <|3b|> looks like it is actually :defsystem-depends-on 07:24:55 <|3b|> http://common-lisp.net/project/asdf/asdf.html#index-g_t_003adefsystem_002ddepends_002don-20 07:25:51 thanks. now I understand :defsystem-depends-on. it's used if the processing of the .asd file itself depends on some other system. 07:25:57 that doesn't really apply here. 07:26:27 well maybe it might. 07:26:46 those classes are telling asdf to treat .gendl and .gdl files the same as lisp source files 07:27:04 so they need to be defined when in development mode using asdf, not otherwise. 07:27:28 if end user chooses not to use asdf, I don't want to force them to have it in their environment 07:28:08 when they do load asdf then it should come with these definitions. No matter what it's going to take some manual management, i think. 07:28:38 anyway for now I banish these forms from the code and try the monofasl again just to see if that was the prob... 07:30:03 b1rkh0ff [~b1rkh0ff@31.176.185.228] has joined #lisp 07:30:15 -!- meiji11 [~user@d75-158-40-174.abhsia.telus.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:30:17 birkhoff? from Nikita? 07:30:19 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-171-42.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 07:30:33 gendl, your read-from-string doesn't require asdf to be present to be read -- but it does to be executed 07:30:47 b1rkh0ff^ 07:31:17 Fare: yep. 07:32:16 I recommend (defclass asdf::gendl (cl-source-file) ((type :initform "gendl"))) and (defclass asdf::gdl (cl-source-file) ((type :initform "gdl"))) 07:34:36 isn't that what I am doing? 07:34:44 i don't need the asdf::cl-source-file ? 07:35:19 dunno if that's what you're doing 07:35:23 I'm too sleepy to look 07:36:08 sleep! 07:36:34 i'm doing just what you recommended. 07:36:38 a few months ago. 07:36:47 and again just now you recommend identical. 07:36:51 so now I really trust it! 07:37:07 this is just a build-hygiene issue at this point... 07:37:54 |3b|: thank you fixed the "about". As for the language problems... it is 'Canadian', not English :P 07:39:16 *drewc* wanted to say "Canadien", but thought that would be an issue 07:40:40 <|3b|> shouldn't that be /ca/ then? :p 07:41:09 ya, that fixed the monofasl. 07:41:44 loads in 2.05 seconds in CCL. 07:42:17 26MB fasl. 07:43:01 |3b|: I really wanted to say 'Acadian' ... but that is extreme even for #lisp :) 07:43:43 <|3b|> looks like french and canadian by-nc-sa differ even in french (no idea if any significant differences since i can't read it) 07:44:38 *|3b|* fails to find a variant of the cc license for acadian 07:45:59 googol [~matthew@lal-99-123.ResHall.Berkeley.EDU] has joined #lisp 07:46:41 -!- ur5us [~ur5us@16.193.69.111.dynamic.snap.net.nz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:48:02 Well, I was born in Halifax and spoke french first ... so while "Cajun-Creole" is likely the proper term for the language, well ... let us just say it is not an ANSI standard 07:48:54 -!- Corvidium [~cosman246@24.56.228.105] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 07:49:53 heh, turn out i am wrong : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acadian_French 07:52:20 *drewc* excuses himself for not lisping but rather trilling his #\r's 07:54:11 Artheist [~quassel@modemcable051.243-130-66.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 07:55:37 <|3b|> well, aside from the choice of language, you probably want the one that uses the laws of canada instead of france :) 07:55:52 -!- yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.168] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 07:56:36 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 07:57:45 dto [~user@pool-96-252-62-13.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 07:57:58 |3b|: well, having said all that. honesty comes out. http://renard.github.com/o-blog/ ... that is actually the license :D 07:58:33 Myk267 [~myk@adsl-71-149-249-241.dsl.mtry01.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 07:58:55 |3b|: notice at the bottom ... the email address FUBAR'd and the licence ... that is exacly what I have. 08:01:05 So, I could have easily changed it to the 'proper' link, but instead i went off the deep end with the whole language thing ... likely because it was friday night :P 08:01:56 *drewc* looks at the time ... 00:01:52 08:05:01 *|3b|* should probably go to sleep or something then 08:06:11 impomatic [~digital_w@158.195.125.91.dyn.plus.net] has joined #lisp 08:12:20 -!- waveman_ [~tim@101.174.161.170] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 08:12:53 ehu [~ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 08:15:41 killerboy [~mateusz@195.225.68.249] has joined #lisp 08:18:05 stardiviner [~stardivin@122.236.253.185] has joined #lisp 08:18:55 waveman_ [~tim@101.174.161.170] has joined #lisp 08:23:16 -!- sw2wolf [~czsq888@171.217.20.128] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:24:14 yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.168] has joined #lisp 08:26:31 qNemo [~qN@89.207.216.208] has joined #lisp 08:27:03 sw2wolf [~czsq888@171.217.20.128] has joined #lisp 08:27:18 -!- qptain_Nemo [~qN@89.207.216.208] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:27:46 -!- qNemo [~qN@89.207.216.208] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:28:53 qptain_Nemo [~qN@89.207.216.208] has joined #lisp 08:32:53 Vivitron [~Vivitron@pool-98-110-213-33.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 08:36:01 -!- archonix [~unknown@78.90.30.16] has quit [Quit: Read error: Connection reset by beer] 08:37:36 qNemo [~qN@89.207.216.208] has joined #lisp 08:39:46 -!- qptain_Nemo [~qN@89.207.216.208] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:40:05 -!- quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 08:40:19 quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 08:41:37 Keshi [~Keshi@unaffiliated/keshi] has joined #lisp 08:43:12 p_l [~pl@tsugumi.brage.info] has joined #lisp 08:44:25 -!- Keshi [~Keshi@unaffiliated/keshi] has quit [Client Quit] 08:46:14 -!- Bike [~Glossina@71-34-78-123.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 08:46:34 momo-reina [~user@103.5.142.4] has joined #lisp 08:46:45 Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 08:47:49 are tail recursive calls considered idiomatic common lisp or more into scheme? 08:50:49 more of a scheme thing, though they were pretty common common lisp technique (just... hand coded, usually - see PAIP) 08:52:49 so were common? how about now? what's the more "modern" approach? 08:53:02 i was actually going through PAIP, and saw it mentioned which is why I asked 08:53:12 either/or ? 08:53:13 thomas_yzj [~user@175.0.175.230] has joined #lisp 08:53:47 i worked through some of SICP a few years ago and so started using recursive calls a lot but was told later that in common lisp it's not the best way to do it... 08:53:52 or rather : depends on the algo 08:55:15 and be aware that the cl spec doesn't guarantee tail calls will be tail cail optimized 08:55:19 or: TCO or TCE is not in the standard. 08:56:11 but dynamic scope _is_ :) 08:56:55 -!- hyoung [~sabayonus@116.24.102.130] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:57:02 Why is dynamic scope relevant? 08:57:41 so what would you guys consider a good "generic" way to go about iterating? loop macro? 08:57:43 because of TCE basically. 08:58:17 What does TCE have to do with dynamic scope? 08:59:11 Maybe you're more concerned with unwind-protect? 09:00:06 because you can not have tail calls eliminated if/when where is ... and yeah , dynamic scope is probably the wrong term 09:03:02 Most of the dynamic environment interactions with TCE aren't that hard to cope with. 09:03:31 But they do add some additional constraints. 09:03:55 Zhivago: tbh, I was thinking about those that are, and you followed up with exactly my thoughts :) 09:04:21 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@70.114.215.220] has quit [] 09:04:51 momo-reina: so, my bad, and what do you mean by "generic" 09:05:16 it is possible to have PTC in presence of dynamic bindings, but that requires support from the implementation. 09:05:16 momo: LOOP where idiomatic is ... idiomatic. :) 09:05:36 But I'd avoid LOOP where it becomes complex. 09:05:52 momo-reina, https://bitbucket.org/tarballs_are_good/recur 09:08:27 gnight/morn/aft/day all. bedtime 09:09:00 so to give a not so good example, what would be the common lisp way of writing a function that returns all permutations of a list? 09:09:11 the way i'm doing it is through recursion 09:09:21 momo-reina, recursion isn't inherently bad 09:09:29 but i run into problems when the length of the list is more than 9 elements 09:09:53 -!- sdemarre [~serge@125.162-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 09:10:24 momo-reina, you know that length 10 permutations will lead to 3,628,800 permutations, that * 10 elements is, well, a lot 09:10:27 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-118.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 09:11:28 dt770 [dt770@c-fa1ee755.05-23-6c6b7013.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 09:11:52 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 09:12:18 Quadrescence: right, but there must be a way of doing it? i've never worked in the industry, primarily a hobbyist, but i imagine there must be many situations where you would have to come up with permutations of lists that have more than 10 elements? 09:12:23 or am i totally off the mark? 09:12:24 momo-reina, do you just want permutations or are you interested in how? 09:12:45 If the former, (ql:quickload :cl-permutation) 09:13:41 and then use PERM:DOPERMS 09:13:52 which is like DOLIST or DOTIMES, but the variable is bound to the next permutation 09:13:58 primarily how, and not so much in the way of coming up with the permutations, but the inherent strategy of writing code that can deal with iteration/recursion 09:14:58 momo-reina, okay, well without regards to permutations, the usual way of turning a recursive problem into an iterative one is to either make it obviously tail recursive then write the trivial loop, or you simulate recursion and make your own stack 09:15:36 -!- Artheist [~quassel@modemcable051.243-130-66.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:16:18 Quadrescence: i'm familiar with turning it into a tail recursive form and writing the trivial loop, this would be something using closure am i correct? 09:16:33 not familiar though with the second suggestion... 09:16:55 momo-reina, no, you don't even need a closure 09:17:26 -!- Nshag [user@chl45-1-88-123-84-8.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:18:06 Nshag [user@chl45-1-88-123-84-8.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 09:18:39 momo-reina, Can you write (defun fac (x acc) (if (zerop x) acc (f (1- x) (* x acc)))) as a loop? 09:19:31 momo-reina, https://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/329b289439393d16?dmode=source&output=gplain&noredirect&pli=1 09:20:42 Ralt [~ralt@88.60.8.93.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 09:22:48 -!- doomlord [~doomlod@host81-159-234-112.range81-159.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:22:50 Indecipherable [~Indeciphe@41.13.0.124] has joined #lisp 09:23:18 whitedawg [~whitedawg@122.179.85.235] has joined #lisp 09:24:36 -!- CrazyEddy [~CrazyEddy@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 09:26:07 -!- Jubb [~Jubb@pool-108-28-62-61.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:27:34 -!- sw2wolf [~czsq888@171.217.20.128] has left #lisp 09:28:04 bitonic [~user@b01bf0a7.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 09:28:32 -!- phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:29:30 Quadrescence: does this work? (defun fac2 (x acc) 09:29:31 (loop if (eql x 1) return acc 09:29:31 do (progn (setf acc (* x acc)) 09:29:31 (decf x)))) 09:30:06 sure that looks relatively fine, and it's in the spirit of the original 09:30:20 adeht: thanks for the link 09:32:41 mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.98.59] has joined #lisp 09:32:56 -!- Fare [~fare@173-9-65-97-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:34:31 ok i have to run, the missus is waiting.. Quadrescence thanks for replying and helping out, i'd love to continue this later. 09:34:47 sure 09:35:29 -!- techlife [techlife@60.212.33.102] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 09:36:24 xcombelle [~xcombelle@AToulouse-551-1-91-164.w92-149.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 09:36:34 -!- momo-reina [~user@103.5.142.4] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:37:42 snearch [~snearch@www.polruckeln.com] has joined #lisp 09:38:55 -!- whitedawg [~whitedawg@122.179.85.235] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:40:41 CrazyEddy [~transaudi@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 09:40:51 -!- dented42 [~dented42@opengroove.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:41:05 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:41:39 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:41:49 techlife [techlife@60.212.33.102] has joined #lisp 09:43:31 pkkm [~pawel@acyd249.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 09:46:33 Fare [fare@nat/google/x-qbbvucvrklvynsma] has joined #lisp 09:46:38 dented42 [~dented42@opengroove.org] has joined #lisp 09:50:10 -!- yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.168] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:53:45 -!- agumonkey [~agu@45.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:55:06 -!- snearch [~snearch@www.polruckeln.com] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 09:56:32 agumonkey [~agu@45.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 10:05:24 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 10:06:02 -!- Indecipherable [~Indeciphe@41.13.0.124] has quit [Quit: used jmIrc] 10:07:37 nostoi [~nostoi@151.Red-81-32-247.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 10:10:54 loke_erc [~user@bb115-66-218-239.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 10:13:32 -!- thomas_yzj [~user@175.0.175.230] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 10:18:58 yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.168] has joined #lisp 10:21:32 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-87-79-196-120.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 10:30:06 dtw [~dtw@pdpc/supporter/active/dtw] has joined #lisp 10:31:14 snowylike [~sn@91-67-171-156-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 10:31:29 I have small problem... I have a stream, and I want to create a new gray-stream that simply delegates everything to the underlying stream (but adds some extra functionality 10:32:14 What's th ebest way to go about doing that? I was thinking of using MOP to manipulate the underlying instance and make it extend my speical class, but that feels a bit... well, wrong. 10:34:37 -!- hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@109.120.33.127] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:35:08 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 10:41:53 -!- milosn_ [~milosn@user-5AF50224.broadband.tesco.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 10:44:40 milosn [~milosn@user-5AF50224.broadband.tesco.net] has joined #lisp 10:46:39 -!- loke_erc [~user@bb115-66-218-239.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 10:47:02 cdidd [~cdidd@95-27-2-92.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 10:47:25 loke_erc [~user@bb115-66-218-239.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 10:50:24 Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 10:53:33 -!- bitonic [~user@b01bf0a7.bb.sky.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:54:06 loke_erc: isn't the set of methods on gray streams fairly small? 10:57:20 -!- Tanami [~carnage@9ch.in] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:59:20 Tanami [~carnage@9ch.in] has joined #lisp 11:02:59 -!- nostoi [~nostoi@151.Red-81-32-247.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Seite geschlossen] 11:04:24 moah [~moah@dslb-188-109-205-025.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 11:04:53 pkhuong, loke_erc: the number of functions in the gray streams definition is small (< 20, I think). 11:05:11 so, I don't see a problem in doing exactly what you want: simply delegate. 11:11:26 ehu: No problems really 11:11:47 ehu: I was asking what is generally considered the "proper" way of doing it in a generic sense 11:12:04 zorkmoid_ [2ec24ab9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.46.194.74.185] has joined #lisp 11:12:07 -!- dto [~user@pool-96-252-62-13.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:12:24 ;afternoon! 11:15:44 Thra11 [~thrall@114.36.113.87.dyn.plus.net] has joined #lisp 11:16:35 loke_erc: if the underlying stream is a gray stream, then you can easily subclass it. 11:16:57 loke_erc: if it is not, then, you could just write a gray stream wrapper over it, and subclass that wrapper. 11:17:07 loke_erc: or just write your gray stream, forwarding to the other stream. 11:18:17 -!- pkkm [~pawel@acyd249.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has left #lisp 11:22:23 MoALTz [~no@host86-138-29-106.range86-138.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 11:23:37 -!- Thra11 [~thrall@114.36.113.87.dyn.plus.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:24:14 lukas [~lukas@194.228.13.80] has joined #lisp 11:24:14 loke_erc: if something else is instantiating the stream of a certain type, then you're probably best off wrapping it. 11:27:37 ehu: Oh. I was thinking of dynamically changing the class of the instance into a (ydnamically generated) subclass of whatever it was an instance of before 11:27:49 ehu: now that I think about it, that's actually pretty nasty :-) 11:32:25 it is :-) 11:36:15 Thra11 [~thrall@114.36.113.87.dyn.plus.net] has joined #lisp 11:42:00 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 11:43:19 -!- dtw [~dtw@pdpc/supporter/active/dtw] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 11:45:26 -!- Thra11 [~thrall@114.36.113.87.dyn.plus.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:46:42 foreignFunction [~niksaak@94.27.88.120] has joined #lisp 11:46:46 Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 11:50:30 doomlord_ [~doomlod@host81-159-234-112.range81-159.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 11:54:29 -!- agumonkey [~agu@45.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 11:56:25 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-87-79-196-120.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:58:48 Thra11 [~thrall@114.36.113.87.dyn.plus.net] has joined #lisp 12:04:30 -!- dented42 [~dented42@opengroove.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:07:07 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:07:55 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@195.225.68.249] has quit [Quit: leaving] 12:09:24 dented42 [~dented42@opengroove.org] has joined #lisp 12:09:37 -!- Thra11 [~thrall@114.36.113.87.dyn.plus.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:10:03 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-118.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:11:08 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:11:39 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:12:34 -!- Ralt [~ralt@88.60.8.93.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:13:10 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 12:13:46 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-118.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 12:14:45 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f757a36.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 12:19:12 bitonic [~user@dyn1221-250.wlan.ic.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 12:22:16 Thra11 [~thrall@114.36.113.87.dyn.plus.net] has joined #lisp 12:23:09 eldariof [~CLD@pppoe-217-53-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has joined #lisp 12:24:55 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-127-80.lns20.bne4.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:25:18 -!- Patzy [~something@lns-bzn-51f-81-56-151-137.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:25:25 Patzy [~something@lns-bzn-51f-81-56-151-137.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 12:26:07 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 12:26:32 sw2wolf [~czsq888@171.217.160.7] has joined #lisp 12:27:42 agumonkey [~agu@45.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 12:31:07 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:34:58 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 12:36:07 is there a portable way to do :external-format :utf8 in with-open-file? 12:36:31 nialo [~nialo@ool-44c53f01.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 12:37:37 rose__ [~rose@113.14.61.100] has joined #lisp 12:40:31 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@92.46.25.3] has joined #lisp 12:40:32 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@92.46.25.3] has quit [Changing host] 12:40:32 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 12:41:15 Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 12:42:00 first research leads me to http://weitz.de/flexi-streams/ as a solution to that 12:42:48 iolib if performance matters, I hear. 12:43:01 Another option is to always work with byte vectors (: 12:45:29 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:46:16 I'm reading a CSV file to push its content to PostgreSQL... maybe I just need to set the client_encoding there and stop caring about it in the client side... the other thing I do is "normalise" the csv to the PostgreSQL COPY Text Format when a row is refused by the server, and store that row in a file 12:46:38 when preparing a "reject" file I need to care about the output encoding, I think 12:47:15 (as I already have to care when reading and parsing the input file in the first place) 12:47:19 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-87-79-196-120.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 12:47:41 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 12:48:51 I don't see anything related to :external-format in http://common-lisp.net/project/iolib/manual/html_node/index.html 12:49:44 -!- sw2wolf [~czsq888@171.217.160.7] has left #lisp 12:55:56 splittist [~splittist@99-21.63-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 12:56:00 morning 12:56:19 hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@109.120.33.127] has joined #lisp 12:58:34 dim: I use (ql:quickload :com.informatimago.clext) (com.informatimago.clext.character-sets:make-external-format :utf-8) (from gitorious, since I just corrected a bug that's not yet in quicklisp). 12:59:04 dim: you could also just open with :utf-8 and see what breaks, if anything. 12:59:24 Sure, most implementation will take keywords for external-formats. 12:59:46 pkhuong: it breaks because I said :utf8, which IIRC was what to use in SBCL but is not working in CCL 12:59:55 :utf-8 would work. 13:00:00 trying again with :utf-8 13:02:53 -!- Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 13:03:05 -!- Amadiro [jonathri@dalvik.ping.uio.no] has quit [Excess Flood] 13:03:43 jonasac [~jonasac@li298-140.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 13:03:51 pkhuong: random question you might just know an answer to: is there something like a SHA or other good-quality hash function that produces only short values (say, 32-bit) without all the horribleness of CRC32? Just truncating the SHA1 string loses a good deal of its mapping over the entire range of values compared to a hash that actually produces the target-length value, but I don't want or need to expose a full length SHA1 in URL session tokens 13:05:24 Amadiro [jonathri@dalvik.ping.uio.no] has joined #lisp 13:06:48 -!- stardiviner [~stardivin@122.236.253.185] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:12:39 see what ironclad provides as digests 13:13:05 there are several interesting options, but I don't know enough about crypto to help you after that 13:14:15 mhm, will check it out 13:18:43 -!- shifty [~user@114-198-34-246.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:20:25 -!- Bacteria [~Bacteria@115-64-180-132.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Quit: Bacteria] 13:20:55 -!- antgreen [~green@64.56.247.247] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:21:15 GuglielmoS [~guglielmo@ppp-8-109.21-151.libero.it] has joined #lisp 13:21:36 LiamH [~none@pool-74-96-4-63.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:21:57 jrajav [~jrajav@71-82-124-223.dhcp.roch.mn.charter.com] has joined #lisp 13:28:03 -!- techlife [techlife@60.212.33.102] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 13:31:28 techlife [techlife@60.212.33.102] has joined #lisp 13:31:40 ok I was confused before, turns out that :utf-8 works fine on ccl and sbcl 13:31:54 well I did a very long test in ccl and a very short dummy test on sbcl 13:32:12 cnl [~pony@bitdiddle.net] has joined #lisp 13:33:12 mathrick: crypto or not? 13:34:53 Ralt [~ralt@88.60.8.93.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 13:35:00 -!- googol [~matthew@lal-99-123.ResHall.Berkeley.EDU] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:35:07 crypto for 32 bit probably doesn't make sense. DJB et al's siphash seems solid and more collision resistant than cityhash or murmurhash (acccording to djb's research, of course ;). 13:35:27 pkhuong: unsure actually. It's for identifying server-side closures and related state, so they only map onto a known set of keys in a relatively small dictionary 13:35:53 googol [~matthew@lal-99-123.ResHall.Berkeley.EDU] has joined #lisp 13:35:53 I don't know if I should be concerned about their guessability 13:37:00 antgreen [~green@64.56.247.247] has joined #lisp 13:37:15 any hash will be as guessable as a linear id, in the end. I guess you want to mix with a session-specific nonce. 13:37:29 -!- xcombelle [~xcombelle@AToulouse-551-1-91-164.w92-149.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:38:12 (because you have so few values, for the guessability). 13:38:59 yeah, nonce does make sense, especially given that these token can end up in the URLs if I don't find a way around requiring them 13:39:57 ikon [~user@h-19-188.a146.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 13:41:33 -!- GuglielmoS [~guglielmo@ppp-8-109.21-151.libero.it] has quit [Quit: GuglielmoS] 13:41:48 pkhuong: so siphash? 13:43:31 mathrick: I don't know why you want security with tiny space. If you don't want crypto, siphash seems good. If you do want security, I don't know. 13:44:28 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-118.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:44:39 pkhuong: I don't really expect them to be very sensitive most of the time, which is why I want to shorten them 13:47:54 pkhuong: also, does it make sense to go state  SHA1  siphash + nonce, or should I just go state  siphash + nonce directly? 13:49:28 I can't help you there (: 13:50:56 I'm getting an error in SBCL when using trivial-gray-streams. Is this a problem in my code, in trivial-gray-streams or in SBCL? 13:51:00 http://paste.lisp.org/display/135914 13:51:33 pkhuong: oh? Why not? I just had the idea of going through SHA1 first, because SHA1 is the obvious choice when you want to key values, but I don't know if it makes any sense whatsoever in any sensible scenario. Would having the SHA1 buy me anything from crypto perspective or any other you can see immediately? 13:52:27 loke_erc: my guess is that there's nothing implementing gray streams for sockets in your SBCL 13:52:56 mathrick: So, that would be an incompleteness in trivial-gray-streams, presumably? 13:53:55 not really, t-g-s just abstracts the least amount possible, which is mostly the specific package name they reside in in the specific implementations 13:54:05 I suspect that might be a contrib in SBCL 13:54:10 I see 13:56:37 -!- hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@109.120.33.127] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:56:45 Odyessus [~odyessus@chello080109062130.15.14.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 13:56:48 Eldariof-ru [~CLD@pppoe-192-219-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has joined #lisp 13:56:53 -!- Ralt [~ralt@88.60.8.93.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:59:36 -!- eldariof [~CLD@pppoe-217-53-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:59:44 Yuuhi [benni@pD9F99486.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:59:54 mathrick: I don't know. 14:00:20 fair enough 14:00:43 though I guess that means you don't see any obvious advantages of having SHA1 14:01:13 I means I know I don't know. 14:01:35 heh 14:01:59 It seems stranges to hash one of very few states with plain SHA1 first, though. 14:02:05 hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@109.120.33.127] has joined #lisp 14:03:38 -!- googol [~matthew@lal-99-123.ResHall.Berkeley.EDU] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:14:10 -!- loke_erc [~user@bb115-66-218-239.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:14:15 victor_lowther [~victor.lo@2602:306:36c6:f7e0:596f:d39c:4739:2267] has joined #lisp 14:21:07 -!- hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@109.120.33.127] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:22:44 hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@109.120.33.127] has joined #lisp 14:22:45 -!- antgreen [~green@64.56.247.247] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:30:12 -!- splittist [~splittist@99-21.63-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has 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I'm suspicious that some people in here actually have a life! 18:28:42 really? 18:28:44 ... well, I don't 18:28:55 oh good. I'm not alone then. 18:29:06 *drewc* has a life, but his life involves CL and #lisp 18:29:11 heh 18:29:43 so does mine, but my family's not quite up to speed on that concept yet... 18:30:38 my comment about "having a life" was offensive including to myself 18:30:45 and sorry for that 18:31:08 -!- leo2007 [~leo@182.48.109.29] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.3.1] 18:31:21 dioxirane [~OXO@unaffiliated/dioxirane] has joined #lisp 18:31:29 *drewc* has his wife and stepdaughter around him now ... they have no idea he is #lisp'ing or even what Lisp _is_ :) 18:32:04 greetings folks! 18:32:08 Re-L [~Arttt@236-72-202-46.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 18:32:35 *p_l* is mostly a proper nolife outside work 18:37:30 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-118.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 18:37:57 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:39:17 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-118.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 18:44:27 beaky [~beaky@92.96.113.3] has joined #lisp 18:44:28 hello 18:44:39 hi 18:44:48 hi 18:44:53 where ddoes lisp fit in the history i=of OOP? 18:45:31 ? 18:46:21 "I invented the term Object-Oriented, and I can tell you I did not have C++ in mind." -- Alan Kay 18:46:39 beaky: it's way ahead of all other languages that exist at this time. However, its design has existed since way before some of the other languages at this time. 18:46:43 well I think CL was the first OO language to achieve anything like ANSI standardization. 18:46:45 kalli [~kalli@194-144-126-150.du.xdsl.is] has joined #lisp 18:46:59 ah 18:47:08 "The Art of the Metaobject Protocol is the best book written in computing in ten years." -- Alan Kay 18:47:45 i am a student of C++, and common lisp intrigues me 18:47:47 -!- browndawg [~browndawg@117.201.92.90] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:47:59 -!- Re-L [~Arttt@236-72-202-46.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Quit:     (xchat 2.4.5  )] 18:48:07 not only you.... 18:48:28 beaky: you're not a computer science student? 18:49:43 *ehu* wonders why beaky says "I'm a student of C++" 18:50:03 ah I am a CS student who learned how to program using C++* 18:50:35 ah! ok. that sounds different. well, Lisp has some very different paradigms to offer from C++ 18:51:47 aren't both multiparadigm? 18:51:47 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@92.47.249.79] has joined #lisp 18:51:47 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@92.47.249.79] has quit [Changing host] 18:51:47 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 18:52:47 If you think OO, then Common Lisp has methods which are associated with objects merely by association of argument types. 18:52:57 I don't think that paradigm exists in C++ 18:53:20 ah 18:53:55 Then, if you go deeper into the MOP, you can define your own class internals by defining new class-classes (metaclasses) 18:53:57 C++ is not OO, at least according to the person who invented OO :) 18:53:57 think function overloading done right 18:54:41 that way you can change how classes store their slots and more. 18:55:16 CL has OO, and /everything/ is an object with a class. 18:55:46 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-118.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:55:50 I thgouth OOP was about having chunks of data bound to functions 18:55:54 no 18:56:13 OOP is about thinking with objects, but not necessarily classes 18:57:11 Eldariof28-ru [~CLD@pppoe-196-133-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has joined #lisp 18:57:13 chunks of data bound to functions? That is basically a fair bit of programming languages, non? 18:57:29 I think grasping OO in lisp is easier if you have experience with javascript objects or python/ruby metaclasses 18:57:48 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-118.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 18:58:10 ah I tried javascript, but isn't it just the same thing as structs + having some members as invokable functions? 18:59:06 if you can understand how a struct paired with functions that operate on it is pretty much equal to an object, you will have no problems 18:59:53 *drewc* did not have that kalli experience at all, but then again, 'grasps' CL enough to know that its version of Object Oriented is different from JS or Python or Ruby , and for that matter have a phone number of one who grasps the AMOP pretty well :) 18:59:54 so common lisp's notion of objects is like js's? 19:00:00 ah 19:00:01 nope 19:00:24 nope 19:00:33 beaky: an object is an object. Classes happen to have slots, and also are objects, but not the only ones 19:00:42 -!- Eldariof93-ru [~CLD@188.168.246.65] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:00:43 JS was first writtin in CL :) 19:00:54 nope, I mentioned JS because it is OO without using classes, which opens up the mind a lot if all you know is class-based OO systems 19:00:54 in CL, there is not so much the notion of an object "containing" its "member functions" 19:00:55 and you have generic functions, which can be be specialized to have variants handling specific objects 19:01:26 ah 19:01:32 like haskell typeclasses? 19:01:56 CL had an earlier object system called Flavors which did have member functions, or "messages" 19:02:00 a la Smalltalk 19:02:06 but CLOS is more general than that 19:02:26 Flavors is still available (at least Allegro CL comes with a Flavors module) 19:02:26 -!- bitonic [~user@dyn1221-250.wlan.ic.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:02:33 rotty_ [rotty@yade.xx.vu] has joined #lisp 19:02:51 but you can pretty much emulate Smalltalky behavior with CLOS 19:03:33 our system Genworks GDL does that, with the addition of dependency tracking 19:03:48 -!- wyan [~wyan@ec2-54-246-94-212.eu-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net] 19:04:51 victor_lowther [~victor.lo@2602:306:36c6:f7e0:89d9:bb90:f9ba:3f91] has joined #lisp 19:07:47 so the object system is not CLOS's biggest feature (compared to other languages like C++)? 19:08:13 CLOS's biggest feature is probably its generality and extensibility 19:08:37 well, it also makes much, much more sense when you start thinking in protocols 19:08:41 (not necessarily portals) 19:08:47 "the object system is not the common lisp object system's biggest feature" 19:09:05 the meta object system might be, I guess 19:09:13 antgreen [~green@64.56.247.247] has joined #lisp 19:09:20 Common Lisp Object System .,. biggest feature? The Object System for Common Lisp! 19:09:20 housel [~user@mccarthy.opendylan.org] has joined #lisp 19:09:59 and there in no meta-object system ... it is a protocol ;) 19:10:14 s/CLOS/Common Lisp/ 19:10:16 oops :( 19:10:30 drewc: now you are thinking with protocols! ;) 19:10:31 what I think beaky means is CLOS is not so object-centric 19:11:17 every method is not "owned" by an object that it operates on 19:11:18 ah 19:11:41 gendl: (class-of #'print-object) ;) 19:12:09 drewc: yes, ok, methods of course are objects as well 19:12:09 and methods are owned by an object .. the generic function object! 19:12:20 come on, you know that's not what i'm talking about 19:12:38 read what I said: the methods are not owned by the objects on which they operate 19:12:58 that's what the ;) is for i imagine 19:13:07 wyan [~wyan@ec2-54-246-94-212.eu-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com] has joined #lisp 19:13:34 :\ 19:13:48 yeah, the winky eye was meant to be a wink ... but still, my bad, for gendl was right about "owned" 19:14:07 8) 19:14:41 with that said, in some fields (like engineering) it's my opinion that people want to think in object-centric terms 19:15:19 bananagram [~bot@c-98-198-236-112.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:15:20 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-118.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 19:15:24 gendl: well... the style that evolved into the class-centric pseudo-OOP did came from such background, but wasn't so broken 19:15:29 (direct simulation) 19:15:51 wasn't so broken as what? 19:16:07 beaky: basically, to go back to you and your 'thoughts' ... what you think of as an object is likely not what objects are/were supposed to be, as as you can see by our chat ... that is a term that has a lot of false definitions :) 19:16:45 my point is that sometimes people do want to think of objects as more tangible objects, like in engineering applications 19:16:49 gendl: as the horribly convoluted, impossible to compose properly, class-centric (and class-hierarchy-centric), full of band-aid "OOP" 19:16:51 -!- rotty_ [rotty@yade.xx.vu] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 19:16:58 -!- rotty [rotty@yade.xx.vu] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 19:17:16 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-118.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:17:38 p_l: but let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater 19:17:49 mm babies :D 19:17:58 for certain domains people want to see object hierarchies, like CAD and engineering 19:18:08 so that can be emulated with CLOS 19:18:31 without losing the power of more general method-centric system for those who want to use it 19:18:41 gendl: yes, I agree. I think *they* throw the baby out with bathwater :) 19:19:47 is it just me who thinks class-based OO is a totally nice way of designing majority of programs? Like not java-style but more ruby-style 19:19:48 gendl: lately I have been using CLOS objects as 'interfaces' and to use CLOS to transfer static type system things over to CL... 19:20:20 and of course the hierarchy is very very important for that 19:20:53 kalli: what is the difference between java and ruby style oo? 19:20:54 kalli: sure, but why restrict the language to that type of design? 19:21:16 -!- whitedawg [~whitedawg@122.178.217.167] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:21:23 agree with ehu. 19:21:52 ruby has metaobjects, for one thing 19:22:19 kalli: Ruby is closer to Smalltalk than Java :) 19:22:24 *drewc* has rarely worked in Java or Ruby, so does not understand what we are talking about at all. :) 19:22:42 ehu: I'm sitting here reading #lisp, not #ruby. But for practical stuff at work I like ruby *because* it makes choices for me. 19:23:25 pavelpenev: ruby's OO is basically smalltalk with few differences 19:23:50 for a lot of domains and a lot of types of users (i.e. users who aren't hardcore programmers and aren't interested in going gradually mad from the infinite flexibility in CLOS and s-expressions) a class-centric veneer can give a lot of productivity. 19:24:06 I was talking more conceptually, since we are discussing OO from a more abstract angle. 19:24:16 http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?RubyIsSmalltalkMinusMinus 19:24:18 (disclaimer: this is all of course a plug for our system again) 19:24:44 we essentially use objects to model function call tree 19:25:01 parent object is to child object 19:25:04 as 19:25:12 caller is to called function 19:25:35 it's just easier to debug a define-object than a defun because you can see the call tree in front of you and inspect values at will 19:25:40 rather than trying to trace in a snapshot of time 19:26:05 *drewc* is now thinking about ANF and shift/reset and has decided to go back to work :) 19:26:20 kalli: I use lisp, because when I make choices early on (like a specific paradigm), it allows me to deviate later on when I'm 100k lines on, without requiring me to divert to a different language 19:26:31 yes, classes and generic functions are great way to structure a program... but believe me, after working with CLOS, dealing with Java is *horrid* 19:27:08 I can not help that lack of multiple-inheritance is horribad 19:27:38 sabalaba [~Adium@c-24-5-86-251.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:27:55 rotty [rotty@yade.xx.vu] has joined #lisp 19:29:55 mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has joined #lisp 19:30:21 ehu: can you trust all your co-(workers|contributors) will be able to handle such a new choice 100k lines in? 19:31:47 yes. 19:32:06 normanrichards [~normanric@rrcs-108-178-120-144.sw.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:32:16 so far, I've worked only in small teams of highly motivated and skilled. 19:32:44 the teams make the decisions, usually. also, they're all as much programmers as they are designers. 19:32:57 Erik Naggum had a lot to say about trust and trustworthiness with respect to C++ vs. CL. 19:33:21 gendl: he did? 19:33:23 I come from the world of business webapps, CRUDs etc and I would love to direct my career somewhere I can work with people who know what a closure is 19:33:48 dnolen [~user@70.151.3.10] has joined #lisp 19:34:14 not all my coworkers knew when I started working with them. However, they all had open minds to learn. 19:34:32 what's your field? 19:34:36 closures are a poor man's BusinessObjects 19:35:50 kalli: my field is wide. I'm currently working in financial services. However, my last assignment was in logistics. 19:36:10 Mostly my work supports the finance function. 19:36:27 when financial services: finance and risk. 19:36:48 nyef [~nyef@pool-71-161-85-130.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 19:37:02 Hello all. 19:37:04 so like AI-ish work? 19:38:07 gendl, is uiop working for you now? 19:38:27 that's too much credit. no, it's usually model building. I build the framework for them to build their model in. 19:38:37 Found an interesting bug in my implementation of SHEET-ADOPT-CHILD, where a method specialized to (SHEET T) was more specific than one specialized to (T SHEET-PARENT-MIXIN). Who knew? (-: 19:38:52 Fare: thanks for reminding, let me download the latest, I'm still using my patched version from yesterday... 19:38:55 so, is it you-eye-oh-pee, or wee-op? ay-ess-dee-eff, or aysduff? 19:39:33 Fare: As far as I'm concerned, the former, in both cases. 19:40:06 for me it's wee-op and eh-ess-dee-eff. 19:40:14 But then, I try not to use either. (-: 19:40:40 I used so say ay-ess-dee-eff, but ace-duff sounds good to me. 19:40:45 nyef: good for you! 19:40:45 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:40:56 google search for "asdf" moved up one rank since yesterday 19:41:01 used to be 5th now it's 4th 19:41:01 how is quick-build coming along? I'd like to integrate it to asdf, someday. 19:41:17 gendl: did you search anonymously? 19:41:22 I mostly don't touch it these days, since it basically works for us. 19:41:32 gendl: otherwise, google will notice you do daily searches. 19:41:38 ehu: oh no, how does that work? 19:41:47 which browser? 19:42:11 FF has anonymous browsing; chrome has stealth browsing 19:42:13 ehu: don't burst my bubble, I was hoping it had got a bump from http://gendl.blogspot.com 19:42:18 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-87-79-196-120.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:42:18 I think they do the same. 19:42:22 -!- beaky [~beaky@92.96.113.3] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:42:37 gendl: oh. sure. it did :-) 19:42:38 chrome. ok so I should open Incognito Window ? 19:42:42 yes. 19:42:51 Ctrl-Shift-N on chrome starts private browsing. Then asking for asdf, it's 5th. 19:42:59 see? 19:43:31 I'll probably re-create the core logic behind quick-build into nq-clim at some point, once I'm really tired of maintaining a linearized dependency list. 19:43:32 oh. 19:44:09 nyef: why not "just" integrate it to asdf, and let everyone enjoy it while providing a smooth transition plan? 19:44:13 with Incognito, i'm not seeing it at 5th. I'm seeing Taipei Open DanceSport Championship. 19:44:22 reminds me I have to make transition from asdf to xcvb smoother. 19:44:55 -!- ``Erik [~erik@pool-74-103-121-45.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:45:21 gendl, I don't see the comments anymore. Did you delete the old posting and make a new one? 19:45:38 No incentive, really. 19:45:57 wait, I see it again. 19:46:11 Fare: I don't think so. I just deleted the extra Google+ entries. 19:46:26 the comments on blogspot can be elusive 19:46:27 and who's dcooper7 ? 19:46:47 click once and they're gone, click somewhere else and voila they are back 19:46:50 kalli: I come from a world of business webapps and CRUD as well ... my primary source of income is, at this point, a CL based web app with CRUD for the postgresql backend... 10 years old that application, and the first app I wrote for a living in CL. 19:46:52 (maybe they were just waiting to be loaded via js xmlhttp requests) 19:46:57 haven't figured that out quite yet 19:48:16 *Fare* puts a finished quux-hunchentoot online, and tries to integrate it to qres 19:49:06 drewc: nice, good to know it's possible 19:49:27 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-118.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:49:36 dcooper8 was my unique ID at Ford 19:49:52 and i've just stuck with it since resigning from there in 1997 19:50:08 8 is supposed to be lucky number in chinese. 19:50:22 and i'm not sure who was dcooper7 at Ford 19:51:00 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-118.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:51:33 but people were often confusing me with this guy http://www.linkedin.com/pub/dave-cooper/3/887/248 19:52:00 my name is common enough that I'm not too easy to cyber-stalk. 19:52:23 just based on my name. 19:52:31 if you know some of my exploits, then maybe a different story... 19:52:36 We could also expect you to make a living at making barrels. 19:53:42 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:54:25 kalli: well, fwiw, my boss is myself, and he likes common lisp, and will not hire those who do not know/use CL. So, really it is not only possible, but 'impossible' for me to have it any other way :D 19:54:40 -!- Yuuhi [benni@pD9F99486.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 19:55:51 gendl: http://www.cooperboating.com/ <--- all 4 of my sailboats were built by Cooper :) 19:57:54 kalli: before drew there have been others known to work *only* with CL. 19:57:55 well if a barrel made by a Cooper can keep liquid in, a boat made by one should be able to keep the liquid out  19:58:22 -!- youlysses [~user@75-132-7-80.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:58:36 maybe it's related to the fact that the number of people that know CL in my whole country is maybe 100, with large majority being academics. 19:58:49 -!- natechan [~natechan@c-71-56-124-186.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]] 19:58:56 so hiring one is not exactly something one can ask HR to do 19:59:45 hmm. Nobody asked me for my lisp skills. I introduced lisp to them as a solution to their problems. 20:00:08 actually, since I use abcl, they don't even know it's lisp :-) 20:00:14 I call it Java-based. 20:00:16 ehu: :D 20:00:21 ehu: hahahaaha 20:00:29 unfortunately wouldn't fly at my job :) 20:00:49 -!- EvW [~Thunderbi@a82-92-190-215.adsl.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: EvW] 20:01:08 my application needs this rather large support library (8MB) among other large support libraries (3-12 MB) 20:01:22 so, nobody is noticing the abcl jar as unusual. 20:02:47 speaking of which, I do not have the courage to integrate abcl-jar support into asdf/bundle at this time, but I welcome patches 20:02:49 toekutr [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 20:03:55 Fare: uiop-2.32.5 seems to be doing fine. 20:04:33 nialo [~nialo@ool-44c53f01.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 20:04:43 Fare: we'll have to ask Mark Evenson (easye); he's usually quite well motivated to do that kind of integration. 20:05:39 bitonic [~user@dyn1221-250.wlan.ic.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 20:05:44 gendl, thanks! 20:06:10 About to do generate-application on Allegro CL with the monofasl and zero dump-hooks, restore-hooks, restart functions 20:06:31 starting from a completely clean slate and see how minimal we can get with this... 20:06:38 gendl, :-) 20:06:44 -!- ehu [~ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:06:59 Thra11_ [~thrall@128.30.112.87.dyn.plus.net] has joined #lisp 20:07:14 ehu [~ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 20:07:25 alesguzik [~alesguzik@37.214.89.1] has joined #lisp 20:07:25 ah! another Allegro user. 20:07:36 EvW [~Thunderbi@a82-92-190-215.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 20:07:38 which platform? 20:07:49 Linux & Windows 20:08:14 I used Windows the last two years. I like the compiled result, but I don't like their IDE much. 20:08:34 I don't use the IDE, i'm using Slime for everything these days 20:08:37 -!- Thra11 [~thrall@146.90.123.204] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:08:46 ok. that didn't fly where I was. 20:08:57 i fire up the IDE occasionally for the profiler 20:09:09 I include the IDE for some customers who whine too much about emacs. 20:10:16 I hate how their UI wants to catch mouse actions to send to the IDE: right-mouse-down is a normal popup on windows; you don't expect to pop up an inspector window... 20:10:18 well, 20:10:31 apart from that, it works very nice and stable. 20:15:05 of course it runs well! 20:15:12 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-118.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:15:42 -!- cmatei [~cmatei@95.76.25.200] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:15:51 _maybe_ :D 20:16:24 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu2.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 20:16:33 jtza8 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#lisp 22:00:27 hey, 2 quick questions, I'm using dotimes to iterate, but is there a way for it to count downwards (3, 2, 1) instead of up? 22:00:48 voxxx: no. also that's just one question. 22:00:50 (loop for i from 3 downto 1 ...) 22:01:02 and I'm also using cl-redis, is there any way I can turn "'(x y z)" into just '(x y z)? 22:01:24 clhs read-from-string 22:01:24 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_rd_fro.htm 22:01:27 im not using loop 22:01:33 (dotimes (i 4) (print (mod i 4))) 22:01:44 thanks drewc, i knew it was prob simple 22:01:46 -!- moah [~moah@dslb-188-109-205-025.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Hey! Where'd my controlling terminal go?] 22:01:53 eh, that's wrong 22:02:00 i just cant stand using the hyperspec, and sbcl docs aren' 22:02:06 aren't too detailed 22:02:12 s/mod/-/ of course 22:02:20 (- 4 i) 22:02:32 What's the matter with the hyperspec? Especially in conjunction with SLIME? 22:02:40 i dont use slime either 22:02:41 -1 if you want to start form 0 22:02:46 Your loss. 22:02:55 your opinion 22:02:59 no hyperspec? lol 22:03:18 my opinion as well fwiw ;) 22:03:19 not using the hyperspec is like deciding to uninstall man :) 22:03:27 Yup. But one that many here would agree with. 22:03:27 well, some people like to put them at a disadvantage and call it "a challenge" 22:03:30 alright well thats all i needed 22:03:46 voxxx: well, hyperspec is the readable form of the standard. Standard that is followed by implementations. So it tends to have "definitive" answers 22:03:48 i dont spend much time because most of you are smug cunts, but thanks to those who helped, <3 22:03:50 adios 22:03:53 -!- voxxx [~haydenjon@24-179-43-39.dhcp.leds.al.charter.com] has left #lisp 22:04:01 so brave 22:04:04 yeah 22:04:05 I am SMUG indeed! 22:04:08 -!- toekutr [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:04:16 Xach: uiop-2.32.5 has been tested to work well with asdf 2.26. 22:04:35 -!- lynna27 [~Lynna27@c-67-182-147-102.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:04:47 (and a test for it is now in the test suite) 22:04:53 googol [~matthew@lal-99-123.ResHall.Berkeley.EDU] has joined #lisp 22:05:01 -!- lukas [~lukas@194.228.13.80] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:05:45 *pavelpenev* wonders what makes a person ragequit an irc channel after 4 people expressed opposite opinions 22:05:53 Fare: excellent. I hope to do some more tests tonight and do a final release tomorrow. 22:06:00 could it be smugness :) 22:06:06 thanks 22:07:12 I can understand not wanting to use SLIME. Ok, fine, you can do without it, replace with something else, whatever. But ... not using the standard when it's actually followed? 22:07:31 p_l: stop telling people what to do! 22:08:02 youlysses [~user@75-132-7-80.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 22:09:16 lukas [~lukas@194.228.13.80] has joined #lisp 22:09:20 p_l: (reverse '(T N U C)) :) 22:09:30 ... where's that rolled-up newspaper 22:09:32 and trying random things in the REPL and asking #lisp is much better 22:09:46 *p_l* curses not buying paper newspapers for years 22:10:11 a tablet newspaper is heavier anyhow 22:10:11 you can't thwap someone properly without a rolled-up newspaper, dammit 22:10:19 stassats: and non-rollable 22:10:20 *drewc* is trying to roll up his laptop ... 22:11:07 I've seen rollable computer screens 22:11:13 thwapping someone with a 17'' laptop can get you in trouble 22:11:20 I have a rollable keyboard. 22:11:30 -!- Absintheur [~JStrae@a91-155-62-10.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:11:39 prxq: like a broken screen 22:11:44 tinnery24 [~tinnery24@c-67-182-147-102.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:12:34 ^ 22:12:37 prxq: mine is a thinkpad with titanium roll cage ... and 17" ... I imagine it would hurt a wee bit. 22:13:42 -!- Euthy [~euthy@unaffiliated/euthydemus] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:14:37 drewc: I consider mine, even broken, to be dangerous blunt and ballistic weapon 22:14:53 and some playing with battery would give me incendiary missile as well 22:15:06 (9 cell... mmmmmm~~~~) 22:15:15 -!- dt770 [dt770@c-fa1ee755.05-23-6c6b7013.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:15:29 az [~andre@kettu.znaider.de] has joined #lisp 22:19:55 -!- Fare [fare@nat/google/x-qbbvucvrklvynsma] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:23:54 dt770 [dt770@c-fa1ee755.05-23-6c6b7013.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 22:29:09 ahungry [~null@99-40-10-216.lightspeed.livnmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:31:32 -!- setmeaway [setmeaway3@119.201.52.130] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:32:22 alex2701 [~user@dhcp-47-114.EECS.Berkeley.EDU] has joined #lisp 22:33:11 hi, i'm new. what does this error mean: "no dispatch function defined for #\! ... [Condition of type SB-INT:SIMPLE-READER-ERROR]" 22:33:14 ? 22:33:32 try using --script? 22:33:59 Hi, does everybody know we move the clocks forward tonite in the States? (not sure about Canada) 22:34:20 so in EST right now you can pretty much act like it's already 6:34pm now. 22:34:28 i'm not actually running the script. I'm compiling it with parenscript 22:34:45 I had some warning, but it's not like I have any clocks other than my body clock that wouldn't automatically update themselves. (-: 22:34:52 with parenscript? 22:35:04 well, you can't do anything with it really, unless you teach it about the shebang 22:35:29 so I have a call to a generate-application function (this is Allegro's thing but the concept is general), 22:35:36 nyef: all this software usually finds a way to screw up 22:35:57 passing in an expression which is going to be evaluated in the fresh image after a fresh image starts up, 22:36:43 and i'm making this call from a function which is in a file in the "ent" package -- this is a package which won't be available in the fresh image for the build 22:37:44 oh nevermind 22:37:45 d 22:38:06 i'm missing a , in my expression. 22:38:27 -!- dnolen [~user@70.151.3.10] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:39:12 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 22:39:14 it was sending a literal symbol instead of evaluating it before sending it along to be evaluated in the new image, and of course the literal symbol was ending up in "ent" package, and the build was crashing with "Undefined package \"ent\" "" . 22:39:20 so as I was saying never mind... 22:40:23 setmeaway [~setmeaway@119.201.52.130] has joined #lisp 22:40:45 daniel [~user@74-134-242-5.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 22:41:09 -!- daniel is now known as Guest69237 22:43:13 -!- lukas [~lukas@194.228.13.80] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:44:23 oh my god. ultra fail. I was looking at the wrong file. you shouldn't have a shebang when you're compiling with parenscript 22:46:43 -!- zorkmoid_ [2ec24ab9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.46.194.74.185] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:49:12 -!- rubenrubz [~rubenrubz@pool-71-108-81-154.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:49:34 rubenrubz [~rubenrubz@pool-71-108-81-154.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:54:47 skbierm [~sascha@p4FEA042D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 22:59:36 -!- dt770 [dt770@c-fa1ee755.05-23-6c6b7013.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:01:12 -!- Guest69237 [~user@74-134-242-5.dhcp.insightbb.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:04:19 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-4d0104af.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:08:16 -!- Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:22:24 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-176-129.lns20.bne4.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 23:24:15 normanrichards [~normanric@rrcs-108-178-120-144.sw.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:24:36 -!- nialo [~nialo@ool-44c53f01.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:27:04 dto [~user@pool-96-252-62-13.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:30:38 -!- Houl [~Parmi@unaffiliated/houl] has quit [Quit: weil das Wetter so schön ist] 23:33:24 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:33:40 -!- sellout- [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:34:46 -!- rubenrubz [~rubenrubz@pool-71-108-81-154.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:35:18 -!- luis [~luis@nhop.r42.eu] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net] 23:35:20 -!- LiamH [~none@pool-74-96-4-63.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:35:46 -!- forgottenwizard [~ZombieChi@108-222-198-111.lightspeed.nsvltn.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in] 23:36:18 -!- agumonkey [~agu@45.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:37:10 ZombieChicken [~ZombieChi@108-222-198-111.lightspeed.nsvltn.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:38:52 -!- zacts [~lcc@unaffiliated/zacts] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:40:56 antonv [5d7d2a66@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.42.102] has joined #lisp 23:41:03 hello 23:41:19 I know clhs forbids to redefine functions in the package CL 23:42:10 how about re-defining methods for generic functions, if I know the lisp implementation already have a method defined for this function, with exactly the same parameter types? 23:42:14 well, more like it makes the current image possibly stop being compliant 23:42:30 but the generic function specialization is interesting 23:42:42 I think it would be fine 23:42:43 I thikn you're not allowed to define methods on standard classes? 23:42:54 Bike: you can specialize on them anyway 23:43:00 oh, really? 23:43:27 Bike: as long as you're specializing a generic function, not trying to replace a (generic) function in CL 23:43:36 don't have lisp on hand to test, though 23:43:37 -!- Thra11_ [~thrall@128.30.112.87.dyn.plus.net] has quit [Quit: kthxbai] 23:43:55 but redefining a specialized method might work 23:44:02 I am reading here: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/m_defmet.htm 23:44:21 what lisp on hand? what test? why not read the spec? 23:44:24 clhs 11.1.2.1.2 23:44:25 Constraints on the COMMON-LISP Package for Conforming Programs: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/11_abab.htm 23:44:29 the last spec 23:44:38 the last point, that is 23:45:41 stassats: thanks 23:46:10 I am wondering about gray streams 23:46:24 they are usually not in the CL package, but in some implementation specific package 23:46:51 they cannot be in the CL package, the contents of the CL package are fixed 23:46:57 but If the spec places such are constraint on the CL, the implementations may follow and restrict they packages too 23:47:12 *|3b|* would suggest applying same limits to implementation-defined classes and generic functions, since otherwise you might conflict with another library trying to specialize on same type 23:47:28 the CLHS doesn't describe gray streams 23:47:40 usually you subclass the gray streams stuff, don't you? 23:47:42 No, the contents of the CL package is not specified, not fixed! Only the export list of the CL package is! 23:47:45 stassats: i know 23:48:50 |3b|: good point, thanks 23:48:51 pjb: you saved the day! you didn't let a non-precise description to slip through 23:48:56 eg. the number of symbols interned in CL varies between 978 and 1182. 23:49:02 clall -r '(let ((c 0)) (do-symbols (s "CL") (incf c)) c)' 23:49:10 for the implementations I have installed. 23:49:27 That's my purpose in life. 23:49:39 stassats: thanks. I think I'm getting too sleepy to think, and I forgot that I could re-read the right part in clhs :) 23:50:11 I am thinking to deprecate trivial-gray-streams:trivial-gray-stream-mixin, because it causes subtle issues for trivial-gray-streams:stream-read/write-sequence 23:50:27 what issues ? 23:50:29 978 here 23:51:05 the number of interned symbols into the CL package is highly irrelevant to any discussion 23:51:59 fe[nl]ix: moment, I will forward the email to the mailing list 23:54:10 sellout- [~Adium@c-50-134-130-65.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:54:24 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 23:58:31 LiamH [~none@pool-74-96-4-63.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:59:14 fe[nl]ix: forwaded, but to avoid waiting for mailing list bot, here is the message: http://paste.lisp.org/display/135927 23:59:42 If you are interested, I can explain how it happens (on CLISP and CCL)