00:00:52 SBCL source code is not very illuminating: (defun sharp-plus (stream sub-char numarg) (ignore-numarg sub-char numarg) (guts stream nil)). [SIGH] 00:01:22 -!- bad_alloc [~bad_alloc@HSI-KBW-46-223-250-169.hsi.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Quit: wat?] 00:01:43 stassats: Ok, so I'm not paying attention to *read-suppress* at the really low level of reading SYMBOLs - I'm off to fix that. 00:02:28 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@217.17.38.43] has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:02:43 linse [~marioooh@216.239.55.168] has joined #lisp 00:04:17 -!- hiato [~nine@196-215-121-221.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 00:05:48 miql [~miql@ip72-201-141-227.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 00:05:57 hiato [~nine@196-215-121-221.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 00:08:44 -!- b1rkh0ff [~b1rkh0ff@178.77.23.210] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 00:10:36 -!- hiato [~nine@196-215-121-221.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:11:55 ikki [~ikki@187.240.223.248] has joined #lisp 00:13:23 youlysses [~user@75-132-7-80.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 00:16:19 hiato [~nine@196-215-121-221.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 00:21:13 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:21:16 bananagram [~bot@c-98-198-236-112.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:21:18 -!- antonv [5d7d2a66@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.42.102] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:21:45 -!- youtopia [~AllInOne@95.126.182.21] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:22:46 irus [~user@125.135.185.11] has joined #lisp 00:23:51 -!- irus [~user@125.135.185.11] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:24:22 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 00:24:31 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@91-157-48-10.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:24:55 -!- puchacz [~puchacz@46-65-36-47.zone16.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:25:05 -!- EvW [~Thunderbi@a82-92-190-215.adsl.xs4all.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:25:21 EvW [~Thunderbi@a82-92-190-215.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 00:26:32 worstadmin [~worst@174.141.213.48] has joined #lisp 00:27:12 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:34:51 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@1.148.31.124] has quit [Quit: Bye] 00:36:04 -!- Jubb [~Jubb@pool-108-28-62-61.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:37:49 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-66-162.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:38:18 Jubb [~Jubb@pool-108-28-62-61.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:39:23 cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has joined #lisp 00:39:45 jrajav [~jrajav@71-82-133-188.dhcp.roch.mn.charter.com] has joined #lisp 00:40:40 antonv [5d7d2a66@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.42.102] has joined #lisp 00:43:31 jingtao [~jingtaozf@220.191.186.26] has joined #lisp 00:44:59 hi guys,I noticed that the hunchentoot in https://github.com/edicl/hunchentoot use md5:md5sum-string in its latest version,but I could not find this function in my md5 package,which md5 package hunchentoot uses? 00:45:08 -!- Joreji [~thomas@213.135.245.76] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:46:25 My problem wasn't my reader. The ECL combin.lsp file is missing a couple of #+threads guards. I should have checked that first. 00:46:59 -!- Asgeir [~asgeir@sal63-1-82-243-96-129.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:47:14 I have found the correct version of md5 package,http://www.pmsf.de/resources/lisp/MD5.html,thanks any way. 00:47:32 jingtao: which md5 you are using? 00:47:42 and how you provide it to hunchentoot? 00:48:16 jingtao: do you download libraries manually? 00:48:28 -!- boogie [~boogie@wsip-98-172-168-236.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:48:42 I used http://files.b9.com/md5/md5-1.8.5.tar.gz in the past. 00:48:42 -!- bitonic [~user@b0fb09c5.bb.sky.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:49:18 pmai has an updated version of md5 00:49:34 sw2wolf [~czsq888@171.216.155.243] has joined #lisp 00:51:54 Fare: do you means this version:https://github.com/pmai/md5/blob/master/md5.lisp? 00:51:57 agumonkey [~agu@32.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 00:52:55 arenz [~arenz@HSI-KBW-046-005-062-174.hsi8.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 00:53:10 whartung [~whartung@wsip-70-183-27-154.oc.oc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 00:53:47 just curious if anyone has used/uses Lisp or Scheme as a login shell, and how wonderful or awful the experience was. 00:55:42 whartung: IIRC there was a cliki page about doing that with clisp 00:55:48 whartung, there's http://www.scsh.net/ 00:56:13 yea I know the there's a CLISP option,a nd I know scsh exists -- just curious if anyone tried living with them for any length of time and how it went 00:56:26 blackwol` [~blackwolf@ool-4574e84c.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 00:57:25 I didn't like the clisp option; I rewrote the reader to work normally when there were no unqouted parentheses so I didn't have to #[foo] and such all the time 00:57:41 yea that looked basically awful 00:57:56 I used that for about 6 months or so and gave up because too many programs assumed your current shell was posix-ish 00:58:08 like what kind of assumption? 00:58:24 like system("do something posixish") 00:58:30 jingtao, yes 00:58:50 does that actually use your existing shell? I thought it just "picked something" 00:58:54 (i.e. sh) 00:58:55 I got it,thanks very much. 00:58:57 whartung, I knew someone who used emacs as his login shell 00:59:02 -!- findiggle [~kirkwood@173-10-106-172-BusName-Washington.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:59:04 jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@bl18-75-93.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 00:59:28 whartung: hmm it uses /bin/sh in POSIX, but I swear some scripting language used your current shell 00:59:50 I use zsh still but am moving towards using emacs+slime+inferior-shell as my daily interface 00:59:54 jasom: did you fight the stdin/stdout paradigm a lot, or just pipe stuff together like normal 01:00:14 -!- blackwolf [~blackwolf@ool-4574e84c.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:00:17 pipes were a bit of a pain too, yeah 01:00:19 dnolen [~user@pool-71-183-180-232.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:00:19 -!- hiato [~nine@196-215-121-221.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:00:32 and lack of an ability to pipe loops and such together 01:00:32 -!- jingtao [~jingtaozf@220.191.186.26] has quit [Quit: bye] 01:01:23 I mean, piping is basically genetic to me now after using unix and *sh for so long. Just curious if others came up with a different idiom for a lisp shell, or did you rely on monolithic programs (like VMS does) to "do everything" or what. 01:01:37 the pipe metaphor doesn't really mix well with lisp 01:02:05 but then, sucking entire files in to RAM and representing them as something (a list, perhaps) doesn't seem attractive either 01:02:14 hiato [~nine@196-215-121-221.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 01:03:14 -!- arenz [~arenz@HSI-KBW-046-005-062-174.hsi8.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 01:03:38 fasta_ [~xchat@xs8.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 01:03:54 -!- fasta [~xchat@xs8.xs4all.nl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:04:12 whartung: pipes of lisp-objects work reasonably well. Pipes of plain-text less so. 01:05:01 how would you do that though? using some kind of Future or other lazy construct to represent the stream of objects? 01:05:14 whartung: threads + queues 01:05:14 SERIES! 01:05:32 I didn't quite want to go there Qworkescence :) 01:05:36 whartung: or any number of other ways 01:05:54 #Z(YES YOU DID) 01:06:04 heh 01:06:23 +1 for threads + queues 01:06:28 -!- hiato [~nine@196-215-121-221.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:06:31 -!- aerique [310225@xs8.xs4all.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:06:32 sure 01:07:21 I guess "stdout" would be a queue printing to ..uh.. stdout 01:07:26 cfy [~ilisp@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 01:08:47 that would be curious, a wrapper that pumps the queue in to stdin of a shell program as text lines. 01:10:06 threads + bounded queues Just Work on a lot of problems. 01:10:26 ja 01:10:50 so: (form1 arg arg) | (form2 arg arg) | (form3  ) |  ? 01:11:27 because I can also see writing lisp wrappers around common shell programs. 01:11:44 aerique [310225@xs8.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 01:11:52 so (lisp1 arg arg) | (unixgrep arg arg) | (lisp2 arg arg) 01:12:21 vs (list1 arg arg) | (unixwrapper "grep" "-i") | (lisp2 arg arg) 01:13:09 what about the loss of auto complete for files that would seem -- icky 01:13:31 I had autocomplete for files in mine as well (clisp has bindings to readline so it was easy) 01:13:43 ok 01:13:52 I have no idea if I have that code around anywhere now 01:13:58 you just extend the clasp readline then 01:14:05 grrautocorrect 01:14:07 c l i s p 01:14:16 slime does autocomplete for files. 01:14:44 tried my hand at doing an auto complete shell proc for bash -- but was unsuccessful 01:15:10 oh, clisp already has auto-complete for files #p"/ 01:15:45 -!- Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:16:20 that actually works ok 01:17:09 I'd need to compile MT on my CLISP 01:17:27 -!- natechan [~natechan@50-192-61-46-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]] 01:17:49 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-71-163-43-88.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 01:19:00 jingtao [~jingtaozf@220.191.186.26] has joined #lisp 01:21:07 What's the best way to use #+/#- to define a critical function - do you use 1: #+XXXX (defun aaa...) #-XXXX (defun aaa...) or 2: (defun aaa ...) #+XXXX (defun aaa...) 01:22:40 drmeister: it is annoying to care different CL impl. when coding ... 01:22:40 hiato [~nine@196-215-121-221.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 01:23:11 drmeister: depends on the feature, of course 01:23:49 the latter form seems to override the already defined function, whereas the former define the respective functions once depending on the setting. 01:24:14 the former would be "faster" since it doesn't invoke the compiler twice. Other than that, it's (mostly) harmless 01:24:34 (i'm sure there's side effect forms that this should not be done with) 01:24:37 drmeister: oh wait, i misread. i'd use the first. 01:28:11 I'm not sure defining the same function twice in the same compilation unit is defined behaviour. 01:28:39 really? why would that not work? 01:28:59 that's pretty much done all day long at the listener, right? 01:29:11 file compilation is different 01:29:48 the compiler is allowed to assume that references to a function in one unit all refer to the function named that defined in that unit (if it's there), but if it's redefined, well... 01:30:27 well I have to step away -- thanks all 01:34:31 -!- jingtao [~jingtaozf@220.191.186.26] has quit [Quit: bye] 01:35:06 xaxisx [~xaxisx@24-246-29-17.cable.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 01:36:43 -!- xaxisx [~xaxisx@24-246-29-17.cable.teksavvy.com] has quit [Client Quit] 01:38:10 natechan [~natechan@c-71-56-124-186.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:39:23 mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-71-163-43-88.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:40:58 DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@1.150.93.48] has joined #lisp 01:46:39 drmeister, depends-- are there only two cases, or potentially many more? 01:47:17 drmeister, it's not conformant to have two definitions for a same function in a same file 01:47:25 drmeister, so definitely not 2: 01:48:01 Bike: is that per compilation unit? I thought it was per file 01:48:37 I don't know. I thought it was per-file too, but I generally assume people like pkhuong would know better than I would. 01:51:56 -!- xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.166.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:56:30 xaxisx [~xaxisx@24-246-29-17.cable.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 01:58:40 -!- sw2wolf [~czsq888@171.216.155.243] has left #lisp 02:00:06 -!- hiato [~nine@196-215-121-221.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:01:34 hiato [~nine@196-215-121-221.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 02:03:04 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:06:24 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-71-163-43-88.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 02:06:36 -!- hiato [~nine@196-215-121-221.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:06:36 -!- knob [~knob@adsl-173-228-214-147.prtc.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:07:06 knob [~knob@173.215.220.171] has joined #lisp 02:07:37 mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-71-163-43-88.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:08:33 -!- ikki [~ikki@187.240.223.248] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 02:09:54 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-71-163-43-88.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 02:12:27 -!- abeaumont [~abeaumont@133.Red-81-34-239.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:12:51 -!- worstadmin [~worst@174.141.213.48] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 02:13:34 peterhil [~peterhil@91-157-48-10.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 02:13:36 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.99.40] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:14:02 mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.99.40] has joined #lisp 02:14:07 -!- xaxisx [~xaxisx@24-246-29-17.cable.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: xaxisx] 02:15:10 Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-96-255-72-75.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:16:52 -!- agumonkey [~agu@32.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 02:17:27 -!- linse [~marioooh@216.239.55.168] has quit [Quit: zzzz] 02:23:47 that mcclim.asd is so full of bogosity! 02:23:52 Hask3ller [~home@c-69-142-86-58.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:24:32 dont diss mcclim 02:24:57 I'm thinking of making malware in Lisp 02:27:41 abeaumont [~abeaumont@133.Red-81-34-239.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 02:28:02 hiato [~nine@196-215-121-221.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 02:29:42 -!- joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@mail.concordusapps.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:33:25 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:36:51 Fare: quite right, it only applies to files. Sad that performance might dictate whether a file can be split or not. 02:39:19 I'm not dissing mcclim -- I haven't looked inside enough to have an opinion. But I'm dissing mcclim.asd. Full of fail that dates back to ASDF1 days. 02:39:37 reminds me of why I wrote ASDF2. 02:39:58 except our systems were even worse than that 02:40:09 pathname-wise, at least. 02:41:10 -!- Hask3ller [~home@c-69-142-86-58.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:42:20 Fare, so you're going to patch it, eh? 02:42:24 prxq_ [~mommer@mnhm-590c399a.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 02:43:42 k0001 [~k0001@host131.190-224-63.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 02:43:48 -!- hiato [~nine@196-215-121-221.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:45:37 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@1.150.93.48] has quit [Quit: Bye] 02:46:16 -!- k0001_ [~k0001@200.117.221.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 02:46:36 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-4d013b27.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:46:43 leoncamel [~leoncamel@124.126.168.49] has joined #lisp 02:49:08 what? mcclim? 02:49:13 yes, if I find a committer 02:49:24 rpgoldman looks like he at least used to be one 02:49:27 so I'm hopeful 02:51:24 any mcclim developer around? Or at least user? 02:51:47 weie [~eie@softbank221078042071.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 02:51:48 is there any good reason to make it that many systems, instead of one system with modules? 02:57:21 brandonz [~brandon@199-188-193-9.PUBLIC.monkeybrains.net] has joined #lisp 02:58:37 the perform :around method of course is also completely ineffective 02:59:43 I rescind that -- inefficient, not ineffective 02:59:49 leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.66] has joined #lisp 03:00:46 hiato [~nine@196-215-121-221.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 03:01:36 and it defeats some other methods in the same file. wonderful! 03:01:45 so full of fail! 03:05:08 normanrichards [~normanric@mobile-166-137-145-133.mycingular.net] has joined #lisp 03:05:11 -!- hiato [~nine@196-215-121-221.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 03:05:13 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.99.40] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:06:12 mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.99.40] has joined #lisp 03:07:00 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-141-46-197.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:07:07 -!- ldionmarcil [~user@unaffiliated/maden] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:12:04 hiato [~nine@196-215-121-221.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 03:13:18 kennyd [~kennyd@93-141-46-197.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 03:14:35 McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has joined #lisp 03:16:56 -!- hiato [~nine@196-215-121-221.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:17:31 and Drei has an undeclared dependency on swank, it seems 03:18:20 hiato [~nine@196-215-121-221.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 03:24:30 -!- Thra11 [~thrall@45.77.125.91.dyn.plus.net] has quit [Quit: kthxbai] 03:24:53 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@mobile-166-137-145-133.mycingular.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:26:00 no, it's just swank.asd being broken, too, it seems, so mcclim can't use it. Sigh. 03:28:03 What's wrong with swank.asd? 03:28:38 well, other than not really using asdf at all, i guess 03:30:05 -!- antonv [5d7d2a66@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.42.102] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 03:30:47 joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@c-98-208-37-38.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:33:20 wheelsucker [~user@ip68-8-180-107.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 03:34:32 -!- Qworkescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 03:38:43 kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 03:40:54 Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 03:51:15 worstadmin [~worst@174.141.213.33] has joined #lisp 03:53:37 -!- prxq_ [~mommer@mnhm-590c399a.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 03:53:37 -!- Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-96-255-72-75.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 03:53:37 -!- sellout [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 03:53:37 -!- edgar-rft 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[~qN@89.207.216.208] has joined #lisp 03:59:54 cfy [~ilisp@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 04:03:57 -!- Bacteria [~Bacteria@2001:388:608c:946:90be:2062:9fe4:5cbd] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:05:49 -!- qNemo [~qN@89.207.216.208] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:08:27 Bacteria [~Bacteria@dyn-49-127-69-130.its.monash.edu.au] has joined #lisp 04:09:21 yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.169] has joined #lisp 04:09:47 -!- wheelsucker [~user@ip68-8-180-107.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:09:59 wheelsucker [~user@ip68-8-180-107.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 04:14:55 I don't get why (asdf:load-system :swank) doesn't work. 04:18:08 Keshi [~Keshi@unaffiliated/keshi] has joined #lisp 04:23:32 -!- rme [~rme@50.43.190.179] has quit [Quit: rme] 04:33:15 -!- ebobby [~fms@199.21.86.106] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:33:42 juiko [~user@186.173.198.158] has joined #lisp 04:33:53 mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-71-163-43-88.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:35:19 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-71-163-43-88.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 04:36:12 Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 04:36:13 -!- wheelsucker [~user@ip68-8-180-107.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 04:36:57 -!- Keshi [~Keshi@unaffiliated/keshi] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 04:37:38 pierre1 [~pierre1@186.205.222.223] has joined #lisp 04:37:42 I want to be able to replace all functions named X in a piece of code with Y. Can anyone think of a good way to do this? I hope I don't have to code-walk :( 04:38:44 Quadrescence: in what context? Refactoring, or in a macro? What happens when X is shadowed lexically? 04:39:57 i'll just try to say the ridiculous thing I'm doing. I want to take a group of function definitions, and put them in a LABELS, but rename the functions in the function bodies of each function to be gensyms which will be the names in LABELS 04:40:30 ebobby [~fms@199.21.86.106] has joined #lisp 04:40:30 -!- ebobby [~fms@199.21.86.106] has quit [Client Quit] 04:41:05 ah, are you faking > function-at-a-time optimisation? Why gensyms? 04:41:38 because then I generate DEFUNs which have the real names of the functions, which funcall the gensyms 04:41:47 mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-71-163-43-88.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:41:51 rhinux [~rhinux@27.115.15.9] has joined #lisp 04:42:28 At that point, you might as well (setf fdefinition). 04:43:33 i wouldn't think that would play as nice, but maybe I'm wrong 04:43:47 non-toplevel defuns are already not that nice. 04:44:09 oh drats, I found another bug whereby asdf should update itself before the first find-system, not just the first operate, or it may clobber some methods. 04:44:16 If you're not too worried about compilation times and code size, you could put the labels inside the defun. 04:44:33 pkhuong: you mean invert it sort of? 04:44:38 yes. 04:44:42 ha :) 04:44:52 cdidd [~cdidd@93-80-3-47.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 04:45:20 Anyway, you can do what you want with lexical scoping. Just interpose a flet where you want the rename, and declare everything inline. 04:46:46 pkhuong: why do you say non-top-level defuns are not that nice? 04:47:06 I was under the probably faulty impression they were okay as long as they were done at compile time, not runtime 04:47:23 (i.e. for the purposes of lexically closing stuff) 04:47:29 (e.g.*) 04:47:56 the compiler probably wouldn't pick up on them? and source information will be fucked? 04:48:01 So, either (labels ((g0 (...) (flet ((foo (&rest args) (apply #'g0 args)) (bar (&rest args) (apply #'g1 args))) (declare (inline foo bar)) ...)) (g1 (...) (flet ...))) ...) 04:48:25 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 04:48:36 Quadrescence: wrt code location, which I assume is what you're worried about with (setf fdefinition). 04:49:47 or, inverse (labels ((foo ...) (bar ...)) (flet ((g0 (&rest args) (apply #'foo args))) (defun foo [don't forget to shove the declarations there] ...)) 04:51:29 Regardless of where you decide to rename, you might want to exploit the inner inline FLETs to perform arg parsing and type checking. 04:52:10 what do you mean by that 04:54:07 for instance (labels ((foo (x y) (declare (type double-float x y)) ...) (bar ... (flet ((foo (&key (x 0d0) (y 0x0)) (declare (type double-float x y)) (foo x y))) ...))) ...) 04:54:18 + inline declaration for the fletted foo. 04:55:04 yeah I was going to do that 04:55:21 i don't even know if this benefits anything 04:55:46 huangjs [~huangjs@114.91.233.191] has joined #lisp 04:56:21 Oh yeah. FOO can receive its arguments unboxed, and for the vast majority of cases, argument list parsing is compiled away. 04:56:52 by "this" i mean this transformation 04:56:56 (entirely) 04:57:20 -!- hiato [~nine@196-215-121-221.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 04:58:03 linse [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1177916632.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 04:58:12 Sometimes, definitely. 04:58:53 the only benefit i can think of is maybe a compiler guarantee that stuff won't be shifted around, but i don't really know the precise ANSI rules for redefinition 05:00:20 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 05:00:28 In theory, there's very little benefit over file-compilation. In practice, I know SBCL benefits a lot, and CMUCL less; both should show improvements on FP/machine-word -heavy code. 05:01:08 loke_erc [~user@c-4957e555.012-14-67626717.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 05:03:19 -!- rmathews [~roshan@122.174.35.49] has quit [Quit: ...] 05:04:12 hiato [~nine@196-215-121-221.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 05:08:57 -!- foreignFunction [~niksaak@94.27.88.166] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:09:58 -!- bananagram [~bot@c-98-198-236-112.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 05:11:16 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:21:04 ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 05:22:28 -!- huangjs [~huangjs@114.91.233.191] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 05:22:44 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-71-163-43-88.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 05:27:50 Tribal [tribal@fluttershy.is.best.pony.rcfreak0.com] has joined #lisp 05:27:54 -!- juiko [~user@186.173.198.158] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:28:03 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@50-196-148-102-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 05:28:23 kpreid [~kpreid@50-196-148-102-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 05:28:46 -!- Dalek_Baldwin [~Adium@108-225-26-178.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:29:18 pkhuong: http://paste.lisp.org/display/135668 05:29:56 -!- hiato [~nine@196-215-121-221.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:30:27 -!- alphonse23 [~sean@pool-71-107-41-102.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 05:33:40 -!- dnolen [~user@pool-71-183-180-232.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 05:35:40 absolutely beautiful (sarcasm) code here: https://bitbucket.org/tarballs_are_good/defrec/src/f0587aa879eec1dfae374d7869a25f054a4931df/defrec.lisp?at=default 05:36:24 squiddo [~user@secure.mediaonfire.com] has joined #lisp 05:36:47 -!- jrajav [~jrajav@71-82-133-188.dhcp.roch.mn.charter.com] has quit [Quit: I tend to be neutral about apples] 05:36:51 hiato [~nine@196-215-121-221.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 05:36:54 -!- cdidd [~cdidd@93-80-3-47.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:37:05 Quadrescence: there's much less code duplication if you just tail call in the FLET stubs. 05:38:08 oops, yes, all the duplication just made me glaze over the definitions :) 05:39:22 Dalek_Baldwin [~Adium@71-84-34-33.dhcp.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has joined #lisp 05:40:51 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:40:59 -!- k0001 [~k0001@host131.190-224-63.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 05:41:29 -!- cfy [~ilisp@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 05:41:58 cfy [~ilisp@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 05:48:43 -!- spaceships [~spaceship@host-72-174-137-126.msl-mt.client.bresnan.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 05:49:08 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 05:50:14 pkhuong: okay, the corrected correct version http://paste.lisp.org/display/135668#1 05:50:57 cdidd [~cdidd@95-25-30-139.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 05:51:16 pkhuong: hm, it's saying I'm redefining EVEN/ODD 05:51:38 Are the DEFUNs redeining the LABELS? :S 05:51:38 you are. 05:51:43 def* 05:51:46 gross 05:51:59 no. You're redefining on top of the earlier defrec form. 05:52:06 dnolen [~user@cpe-74-64-61-245.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 05:52:57 asvil [~user@91.151.182.61] has joined #lisp 05:53:00 oh okay, good. sorry, i'm a bit out of it tonight 05:54:21 I finally need to implement SYMBOL-MACROLET. In the CLHS it says that "When the forms of the SYMBOL-MACROLET form are expanded, any use of setq to set the value of one of the specified variables is treated as if it were a setf". 05:54:42 -!- brandonz [~brandon@199-188-193-9.PUBLIC.monkeybrains.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 05:54:47 -!- youlysses [~user@75-132-7-80.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Quit: Workout then study-time!] 05:54:51 Is it ok if I just convert SETQ's to SETF's if they refer to one of the SYMBOL-MACROLET symbols? 05:55:03 rmathews [~roshan@122.165.89.11] has joined #lisp 05:55:09 That's what it's saying - am I correct? 05:55:13 -!- akovalen` [~user@95.73.216.27] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 05:55:25 yeah 05:55:49 symbol-macrolet is one of the coolest features ever 05:56:06 You can convert SETQs to SETFs liberally, since they'll convert back when appropriate. 05:56:10 except that you'll accept buggy code if you do it for the whole (p)setq form. Better check the syntax before converting. 05:56:48 pkhuong: What do you mean "check the syntax before converting"? 05:57:42 You probably don't want to convert (setq y t (aref x 0) 4) to (setf y t (aref x 0) 4). 05:58:55 pkhuong: regarding the defrec form, it feels like a declaration like DYNAMIC-EXTENT might be dangerous or something 05:59:05 Oh, because it will convert illegal code (setq y t (aref x 0) 4) to valid but probably unintended code (setf y t (aref x 0) 4) 05:59:47 sipo [~sipo@c-66-31-47-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:59:59 -!- linse [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1177916632.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: zzzz] 06:00:07 Quadrescence: I don't see where you could automatically insert a DX declaration. 06:00:24 SYMBOL-MACROLET is going to slow my interpreter down a lot. (sigh) 06:02:25 I would take the time to write a faster interpreter rather than a code-walker but I only need it to boot the compiler. On the other hand, getting the compiler and the hosted ECL CL-code to run with this glacially slow code-walking interpreter is driving me nuts. 06:04:57 -!- pierre1 [~pierre1@186.205.222.223] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:05:02 now i will never miss my standard ml/ocaml "let f x = g x and g x = f x" 06:05:26 -!- sirdancealot7 [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:05:31 -!- hiato [~nine@196-215-121-221.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:06:53 -!- Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-96-255-72-75.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:07:33 hiato [~nine@196-215-121-221.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 06:08:31 pkhuong: you've been quoted: https://github.com/quicklisp/quicklisp-projects/issues/472 06:12:05 normanrichards [~normanric@70.114.215.220] has joined #lisp 06:12:40 hm, I just realized the code is broken. Won't work if we have &foo arguments. 06:14:25 well, i guess that will be a feature, not a bug 06:15:32 mrSpec [~Spec@87-207-172-93.dynamic.chello.pl] has joined #lisp 06:15:32 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@87-207-172-93.dynamic.chello.pl] has quit [Changing host] 06:15:32 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 06:16:31 -!- sipo [~sipo@c-66-31-47-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: sipo] 06:20:50 Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-96-255-72-75.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 06:25:01 pkhuong: can you help me think of a good benchmark? 06:25:08 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.13.15] has joined #lisp 06:25:08 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.13.15] has quit [Changing host] 06:25:08 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 06:25:46 huangjs [~huangjs@199.180.254.36] has joined #lisp 06:26:29 -!- mikaelj [~tic@c83-248-1-231.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:26:46 breakds [~breakds@ppp-70-226-163-93.dsl.mdsnwi.ameritech.net] has joined #lisp 06:28:34 -!- [SLB] is now known as [SLB]` 06:28:40 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.99.40] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:28:59 mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.99.40] has joined #lisp 06:33:51 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 06:34:18 -!- Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-96-255-72-75.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:34:44 -!- Bacteria [~Bacteria@dyn-49-127-69-130.its.monash.edu.au] has quit [Quit: Bacteria] 06:36:02 -!- arrdem [~arrdem@dhcp-53-132.ece.utexas.edu] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 06:36:51 I can't just crawl through a form and replace SETQ with SETF, I have to avoid QUOTEd code - is there anything else? 06:36:59 arrdem [~arrdem@dhcp-53-132.ece.utexas.edu] has joined #lisp 06:37:08 This is to implement SYMBOL-MACROLET 06:37:40 crawl? i thought you'd just set up your evaluator to macroexpand symbols 06:37:46 in value position* 06:40:11 But I have to convert SETQ's with SETF's and PSETQ's with PSETF's so that (symbol-macrolet ((x (aref ZZ 0))) (setq x y)) gets expanded to (setf (aref ZZ 0) y) 06:40:36 You don't need to walk it. Just change how setq behaves. 06:40:52 answer_42 [~answer_42@gateway/tor-sasl/answer42/x-66983568] has joined #lisp 06:41:04 Though maybe you can make your evaluator faster by doing a macroexpand-all first. 06:41:55 You mean change it to accept (aref ZZ 0) in a destination position (setq (aref XXX 0) y) ? 06:42:41 Uh, no, I mean have it macroexpand its destination operand (after checking it's a symbol), and then doing setf instead if it expanded. 06:42:44 Wait, are you talking about my slow code-walking interpreter evaluator or my compiler? 06:42:52 evaluator 06:43:05 Bacteria [~Bacteria@dyn-130-194-155-36.its.monash.edu.au] has joined #lisp 06:43:23 (setq (aref xxx 0) y) is wrong of course 06:43:51 I haven't thought about the evaluator yet - I'm working on the compiler - but I'll file that suggestion away and pull it out when I work on the evaluator. 06:44:10 oh, sorry. 06:44:39 in the current lisp tip http://lisptips.com/post/44108369388/trying-again-with-with-simple-restart 06:45:01 why is there the PROGN? Is that a leftover from a previous code version? 06:45:11 No problem - In the compiler I could change how setq works to make it expand to setf. 06:45:30 ah what in the world, singly-dispatched genfuns in SBCL are actually faster and cons less than regular function calls I am so confused. 06:45:48 I feel like I may have come across this several years ago but I am baffled. 06:46:32 Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-96-255-72-75.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 06:47:23 Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 06:50:47 Maybe I won't transform the symbol-macrolet body to convert SETQ to SETF - maybe that is what the CLHS is trying to tell me when it says: "any use of SETQ to set the value of one of the specified variables is treated AS IF IT WERE A SETF". 06:50:53 -!- ahungry [~null@99-40-10-216.lightspeed.livnmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:51:51 ehu [ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 06:51:53 You might find that setq -> setf -> %setq makes things simpler in terms of transforms? 06:52:39 fsvehla [~fsvehla@h081217181184.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 06:52:56 Fare: is it possible that this would work in a defsystem? :class "hu.dwim.asdf:hu.dwim.system" (reason: :defsystem-depends-on (:hu.dwim.asdf) which defines the class I'd like to use...) 06:53:16 currently it errors, but depending on the architecture it may be a trivial change 06:53:35 -!- huangjs [~huangjs@199.180.254.36] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 06:53:56 Zhivago: How so? I was just getting ready to change my SETQ code generator to recognize SYMBOL-MACROLET expansions and reroute them as SETF macro expansions. 06:54:10 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:54:11 Fare: also note: even though there was an error and I unwound the stack, next time (asdf:find-system :hu.dwim.logger) is successful (with a broken definiton) 06:54:38 drmeister: %setq being something like setq but that doesn't have to worry about symbol macroexpansions, presumably 06:55:17 attila_lendvai, I suppose I could make that work -- but it definitely doesn't work yet 06:55:46 currently, you kind of have to define classes in package asdf -- or at least in a package that already exists 06:55:52 I'll think on it. It's 2:00am here and I need to get some sleep. 06:55:57 at the time you read your .asd file 06:56:03 Thanks everyone for your help and suggestions. Cheers. 06:56:04 huangjs [~huangjs@199.180.254.36] has joined #lisp 06:57:25 Fare: I used to have (load-system :foo) then (in-package :foo) and then the defsystem. then I thought I optimize it, made many patches to many projects only to get a heads' up from Xach that I'm broking my libs in a way that doesn't materialize in my environment... :) 06:58:18 -!- dnolen [~user@cpe-74-64-61-245.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:00:41 weie_ [~eie@softbank221078042071.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 07:00:47 :-/ 07:01:12 -!- weie [~eie@softbank221078042071.bbtec.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:01:13 can you make it a defclass asdf::hu.dwim.system ? 07:01:20 then it can work with the current asdf 07:01:54 angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has joined #lisp 07:02:12 -!- Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has quit [Ping timeout: 257 seconds] 07:04:02 Fare: that's certainly possible but requires touching/patching 10-20 systems, and hackish... so I'd rather look into fixing asdf 07:05:42 I can fix asdf, but it won't be released for many days 07:07:10 brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-142-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:07:35 Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 07:08:34 attila_lendvai, actually, it's already looking in *package* before :asdf 07:08:36 -!- ehu [ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:08:55 but same package bootstrap problem. Meh 07:09:07 let's try read-from-string 07:09:11 Fare: fyi, adding a hackish simple (and (stringp type) (read-from-string type)) to class-for-type already makes it work 07:09:14 instead of find-symbol 07:09:22 should be reasonably backward-compatible. 07:09:33 it calls change-class later on? 07:09:44 yes 07:10:20 it's kinda unwise to call read-from-string without some precautions, though... 07:10:41 with-safe-io-syntax ? 07:14:00 Fare: and maybe also bind *package* to a (make-package #:ignore) which gets (delete-package ) in an unwind-protect? 07:14:29 then assert that the result is not a package-less symbol 07:16:00 -!- answer_42 [~answer_42@gateway/tor-sasl/answer42/x-66983568] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:16:54 -!- Jubb [~Jubb@pool-108-28-62-61.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:18:17 ilisp [~ilisp@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 07:19:23 no, no more package games 07:19:39 I'll bind *package* to asdf, or to the current package 07:22:16 in sbcl, is there a way to look at the source code of functions like REVERSE or MAPCAR? or is that not part of the image? 07:22:43 ecraven: just use M-. 07:23:29 M-. works fine for me, as long as the source code is installed at the expected place 07:24:30 ah, *that's* what people are talking about.. amazing :) 07:24:35 -!- phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:24:39 Fare: I don't think that works if you've installed SBCL from the distribution's package manager 07:24:46 works on arch linux 07:24:48 the right way to install sbcl is from source 07:25:02 -!- berr [~berr@unaffiliated/belasarius] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:25:09 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-66-162.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 07:26:29 loke_erc, unless you also install sbcl-source 07:26:35 on e.g. debian 07:26:44 Fare: fair enough, but is that one available on all distributions? 07:26:56 if not, file a bug against the distribution 07:29:11 Fare: by the way, is my package building properly now? 07:31:22 Fare: You mentioned some warnings, but not all warnings are from my packages. Anyway, how can I test this myself? 07:33:06 -!- ilisp is now known as iPerl 07:34:12 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 07:35:32 -!- Bacteria [~Bacteria@dyn-130-194-155-36.its.monash.edu.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 07:36:15 -!- prxq_ is now known as prxq 07:37:56 what package are you building? 07:38:01 juniorroy [~juniorroy@217.118.79.20] has joined #lisp 07:38:29 and you can test by upgrading to the latest asdf from git 07:44:26 Fare: cl-gdata 07:44:46 Fare: You sent an email saying that it failed with the latest asdf, and I think I fixed it all. 07:46:36 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-108-52-166-246.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:46:49 hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has joined #lisp 07:46:50 -!- hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has quit [Changing host] 07:46:50 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 07:47:01 oh 07:48:01 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-170-203.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 07:48:11 hg clone https://code.google.com/p/cl-gdata/ ? 07:48:15 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-63-86.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:48:23 did you try load with the latest asdf? 07:48:31 -!- techlife [techlife@60.212.33.102] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 07:49:46 -!- maligree [~maligree@fedora/maligree] has quit [Quit: I've had it.] 07:50:46 -!- iPerl [~ilisp@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has left #lisp 07:50:48 how do i correctly load quicklisp libraries in my package? 07:51:51 looks good to me 07:51:54 ecraven: you depend on them in your .asd file 07:52:03 ecraven: then you use quicklisp to load your own system 07:52:07 ecraven, just use asdf dependencies as usual 07:52:15 quicklisp hooks into asdf 07:52:21 jarmond [~user@93-96-213-180.zone4.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 07:52:44 H4ns, did you have time to look at the failure in bknr.modules ? 07:52:54 -!- yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.169] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:52:56 Fare: you mean the warnings? no. 07:53:36 Fare: i understand that these warnings should not be there, but they are and so far, they have bothered nobody. 07:54:36 techlife [techlife@60.212.33.102] has joined #lisp 07:54:39 -!- breakds [~breakds@ppp-70-226-163-93.dsl.mdsnwi.ameritech.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:55:20 Fare: i do not think that the approach of breaking the world by making backwards incompatible changes to asdf is good. 07:55:28 -!- brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-142-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 07:55:54 I could easily be compatible with asdf 0.0.0.0 by having an empty file. 07:56:10 that's a nice answer. 07:56:10 that would be the backwardest compatiblest of all 07:56:19 sirdancealot [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 07:56:21 -!- impomatic [~digital_w@146.90.165.144] has quit [Quit: http://about.me/john_metcalf] 07:56:36 I'd like to go forward. 07:56:55 I can understand latency and delays, and not putting that change in now 07:57:17 but eventually if not now, we'll want to enable this checking by default. 07:57:24 yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.169] has joined #lisp 07:57:44 I can also understand people who want to ignore some class of warnings -- and asdf also has provisions for that. 07:57:47 right. it could be enabled on a per-system fashion. 07:58:01 the default should still be checking. 07:58:40 in general, undefined variable warnings are a non-conformance issue. 07:58:44 -!- juniorroy [~juniorroy@217.118.79.20] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:58:58 juniorroy [~juniorroy@217.118.79.20] has joined #lisp 07:59:22 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:59:36 you know, i have so many things i want to do. fixing these warnings is one of them, and your approach to the issue does not motivate me much. but it is in my list of things and i'll eventually do it. 07:59:46 thanks 08:02:12 Bacteria [~Bacteria@115-64-180-132.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 08:04:22 last year, there were 9 systems with non-utf8 characters that were blocking the move to using utf-8 by default. 1 maintainer replied and fixed his code. One year later, I made the change anyway. 08:05:05 for over a hundred other systems, this made them work in a more robust way independently from the environment. 08:05:47 for the 8 remaining systems... well, that sucks, but they can't stop progress... and if anyone cares, he'll fix them, maybe fork them first. 08:06:08 -!- Bike [~Glossina@63-229-134-7.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Reconnecting] 08:06:14 Bike_ [~Glossina@63-229-134-7.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 08:06:46 it's quite possible my push for checking warnings is premature, but eventually, it's coming. And it's a good tool to find actual bugs. 08:07:07 i see it like this: i prioritize by my own needs, and if i need to fix the warnings so that i can continue to use asdf, i will do so. 08:07:10 many actual bugs were already found in quicklisp code thanks to them. 08:07:45 I understand your position. Sorry to pressure you. 08:08:08 i might also do it if a user of one of the libraries that i maintain has the problem. but i get no kicks from having, say, bknr.web in quicklisp, i'm not using it from there. 08:08:18 and i'm not sure if anyone else does. 08:08:18 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:08:51 I don't mean to create more work for anyone in particular. But I feel that enabling warnings by default will decrease overall work for lispers in general, at the cost of having to fix earlier issues that would have come up later. 08:08:53 so i'm more offended by having to deal with the warnings now than by any possible changes in asdf's defaults. the latter is fine by me. 08:09:35 snowylike [~sn@91-67-171-156-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 08:09:54 in any case -- warnings checking can easily be disabled with (defparameter asdf::*warnings-file-type* nil) ;; that's the version backwards-compatible with asdf2. 08:17:21 -!- nialo [~nialo@ool-44c53f01.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [] 08:23:00 -!- jarmond [~user@93-96-213-180.zone4.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 08:24:57 -!- joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@c-98-208-37-38.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 08:26:38 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-108-52-166-246.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 08:27:26 -!- spacefrogg^ is now known as spacefrogg 08:27:46 ehu [~ehu@109.33.115.42] has joined #lisp 08:28:26 sabalaba [~Adium@c-76-21-4-232.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:30:59 rmathews_ [~roshan@122.165.89.11] has joined #lisp 08:31:18 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-108-52-166-246.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:33:36 -!- rmathews [~roshan@122.165.89.11] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:33:36 -!- rmathews_ is now known as rmathews 08:37:21 meiosis [~user@li514-136.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 08:40:50 Slivka [~Slivka@81.4.242.0] has joined #lisp 08:41:08 -!- Fare [~fare@173-9-65-97-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:43:28 Harag [~Thunderbi@105.224.184.164] has joined #lisp 08:45:32 am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has joined #lisp 08:46:47 -!- Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Quit: Linkinus - http://linkinus.com] 08:48:05 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-66-162.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 08:49:41 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-66-162.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 08:50:39 morning! 08:52:56 -!- fsvehla [~fsvehla@h081217181184.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Quit: fsvehla] 08:53:14 zorkmoid: 'mmm. 08:54:54 and then, i was going to fix warning in systems i use (usually the use of defmethod before defgeneric)... 08:55:18 i hate losing warnings from my own code in the sea of warnings from other code 08:58:01 -!- Slivka [~Slivka@81.4.242.0] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:00:39 -!- cmm [~cmm@109.65.218.23] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:00:50 youtopia [~AllInOne@236.Red-2-140-43.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 09:01:04 -!- Harag [~Thunderbi@105.224.184.164] has quit [Quit: Harag] 09:01:09 cmm [~cmm@109.65.218.23] has joined #lisp 09:05:38 -!- cibs [~cibs@218.211.32.194] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 09:07:53 -!- hiato [~nine@196-215-121-221.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 09:09:43 hiato 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quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:47:27 -!- jdz [~jdz@85.254.212.34] has quit [Client Quit] 09:48:00 -!- jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@bl18-75-93.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:48:30 hiato [~nine@196-215-121-221.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 09:49:15 -!- eMBee [~eMBee@foresight/developer/pike/programmer] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:50:00 varjagg [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 09:50:31 I have followed the instructions in section 13.7.2 of the ccl manual how to build a CDB directory for cairo-gl. i am getting a simple error Foreign function not found: X86-LINUX64::|cairo_image_surface_create| (external "cairo_image_surface_create") is reporting its there I am using #_ what could be wrong 09:51:15 MrMc: #ccl might give you better/more focused responses 09:51:52 H4ns:thanks 09:52:48 -!- hiato [~nine@196-215-121-221.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:53:24 -!- jtza8 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[~jtza8@105-236-66-162.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:40:06 hlavaty [~user@friedrichstrasse.knowledgetools.de] has joined #lisp 12:40:49 -!- hlavaty` [~user@friedrichstrasse.knowledgetools.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 12:40:53 -!- hlavaty [~user@friedrichstrasse.knowledgetools.de] has quit [Client Quit] 12:41:04 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-66-162.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 12:41:14 hlavaty [~user@friedrichstrasse.knowledgetools.de] has joined #lisp 12:42:17 pakchoi2 [~pakchoi2@202.107.197.178] has joined #lisp 12:43:40 -!- pakchoi2 [~pakchoi2@202.107.197.178] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 12:45:33 hiu 12:45:35 hi 12:46:06 please help, I need to access /dev/ttyACM0 from lisp, is there any tutorial? 12:46:08 fantasticsid [~user@216.240.135.207] has joined #lisp 12:46:33 pakchoi2 [~pakchoi2@202.107.197.178] has joined #lisp 12:46:38 what do you want to do? 12:48:24 xcombelle [~xcombelle@AToulouse-551-1-74-224.w92-146.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 12:48:26 I need to connect to a standard terminal on /dev/ttyACM0 12:48:58 I found this http://stackoverflow.com/questions/3549957/serial-port-communication-in-common-lisp 12:49:21 rmathews [~roshan@122.174.53.23] has joined #lisp 12:50:45 Posterdati: let me try again, what do you want to do exactly? connecting to a standard terminal is just a matter of using *standard-input* and *standard-output* 12:51:00 -!- pakchoi2 [~pakchoi2@202.107.197.178] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:53:52 -!- rmathews [~roshan@122.174.53.23] has quit [Client Quit] 12:56:13 -!- Keshi [~Keshi@unaffiliated/keshi] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com] 12:57:23 normanrichards [~normanric@70.114.215.220] has joined #lisp 13:03:43 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@static-217-133-17-91.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:04:11 Posterdati: you just open the device with :direction :io and then use standard stream operations 13:04:44 Posterdati: if you need to change the modes of the serial device, do so using stty from the shell. there should be a device node that you can use to modify the default settings. 13:06:06 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-66-162.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:07:39 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-66-162.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 13:14:52 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@70.114.215.220] has quit [] 13:15:41 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:15:47 ahungry [~null@99-40-10-216.lightspeed.livnmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 13:16:39 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 13:16:39 -!- ahungry [~null@99-40-10-216.lightspeed.livnmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 13:17:05 H4ns: thanks 13:17:05 ahungry [~null@99-40-10-216.lightspeed.livnmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 13:23:13 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-66-162.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 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You can still have multiple channels if you take a more message-sending approach. 14:48:38 the server loop at least might need to listen on two fd's -- or I could spawn one thread per fd, and separate the scheduler process from the listener. 14:48:52 I can do message-passing. 14:48:54 the issue with multiplexing is that the only known solution to multiplexing channels involves a big global lock. 14:49:08 message passing, definitely, then. 14:49:19 so you either get thrashing (chanl), a big global lock for *all* channel operations (everything else), or no multiplexing at all. 14:49:53 Fullma [~fullma@ram94-2-82-66-69-246.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 14:50:39 -!- foreignFunction1 [~niksaak@94.27.88.72] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:50:51 loke [~elias@bb115-66-218-239.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 14:50:51 foreignFunction [~niksaak@94.27.88.72] has joined #lisp 14:52:50 stopbit [~stopbit@static-108-48-124-82.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:53:28 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@166.137.107.166] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:53:36 patron looks like it has sensible queue operations that do not involve busy-waiting. 14:54:33 chanl also has blocking recv. 14:54:39 I need to do GSSAPI authentication. Does anyone know of a GSSAPI or LIBSASL (or related) CL library? 14:54:51 -!- jrajav [~jrajav@198.179.137.211] has quit [Quit: phunq, sandwich store loop, WHAT NO UNIVERSE] 14:54:52 sykopomp: what do you mean by "thrashing" ? 14:54:52 Or do I have to write it myself 14:55:01 ooh, a two-lock concurrent queue. Hm. 14:55:16 Fare: iirc, chanl's recv is *optionally* blocking. 14:55:32 loke: googling for sasl and lisp finds many things 14:55:46 sykopomp, optionally blocking is better. 14:55:54 Fare: what it does is it tries to complete the operations over and over without blocking, until one succeds. It's like a spinlock. 14:56:06 Fare: yes, but I specifically need GSSAPI support. 14:56:24 libsasl does, but not the reimplementation of sasl in CL that I found 14:56:28 sykopomp, that's for write operations, not for read operations, I hope 14:56:47 what's gssapi? 14:56:49 Fare: this is only for the SELECT, and it applies to all operations, both read and write. 14:56:59 writes can block in chanl, depending on the queue type 14:57:09 Fare: the API you use to authenticate via Kerberos 14:57:09 gssapi is the "generic" api for doing any sort of authentication that looks exactly like kerberos 14:57:35 foom: Well, it's a bit more flexible than that, if you use SPNEGO 14:58:52 loke: okay, but there are no other gssapi mechanisms that anyone actually uses. 14:58:57 so by thrashing, you mean "eating plenty of CPU until it gets at least one lock" ? 14:59:07 foom: Fair enough 14:59:16 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 14:59:23 foom: You are right. For (most) intents and purposes, GSSAPI is the Kerberos API 14:59:40 natechan [~natechan@50-192-61-46-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 15:00:01 loke: it might sadly be time for you to implement it, or a FFI to it. 15:00:08 Fare: I will ffi to i 15:00:08 to each one's curse 15:00:09 t 15:00:19 I doubt anyone's been crazy enough to rewrite kerberos in CL yet; I'd recommend a CFFI wrapper. :) 15:00:22 reimplementing a security protocol, no thanks :-) 15:00:48 foom: I know. It's just that GSSAPI is such a pain in the arse to deal with that I was hoping someone else already did it 15:00:58 Fare: until one of the operations succeeds, but yes. It's a spinlock. If your operations aren't expected to wait for very long, it shouldn't be a problem. Again, this is *only* when you're using SELECT, not when you're using regular channels. When you're just reading/writing, it uses two locks and condvars to arrange data transfer. 15:01:07 right. 15:01:14 actually, lisp-style code generation is great for security protocols -- it allows you to generate all parts of the protocol coherently from a single formal description 15:01:27 i wonder how security libraries are getting written in the first place? everybody says "don't do it!" 15:01:50 Fare: Sure, but ti does assume the authour has a full understanding of the underlying protocols. I don't want that understanding of Kerberos :-) 15:02:05 stassats, usually, very badly "in the first place", then with plenty of patches. 15:02:05 stassats: someone does it, and then various people clean up the mess for the next 10 years. 15:02:36 loke, that's where the "formal description" comes in handy 15:02:40 Fare: does patron actually support multiplexing? 15:02:47 foom: sounds like a plan! 15:02:57 as in, waiting for multiple different operations on different channels simultaneously? 15:03:14 chanl supports one consumer with multiple providers just fine 15:03:21 -!- pve [~user@melkinpaasi.cs.helsinki.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:03:23 having done formal verification (in Coq) of a simple security protocol, I can tell it's a hell, but in the end you're confident it's correct, and wondering how you'll ascertain your implementation matches the description. 15:03:41 (and yes, you find and fix conceptual bugs while doing the formal proof) 15:04:00 <|3b|> Fare: just make sure your 'formal description' includes things like all execution paths taking same amount of time, causing same page faults, etc 15:04:32 |3b|, it can contain as much or as little as you care to formalize. 15:05:19 -!- Bacteria [~Bacteria@115-64-180-132.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Quit: Bacteria] 15:05:51 Bacteria [~Bacteria@115-64-180-132.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 15:05:51 -!- Bacteria [~Bacteria@115-64-180-132.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Client Quit] 15:06:17 breakds [~breakds@ppp-70-226-163-93.dsl.mdsnwi.ameritech.net] has joined #lisp 15:06:23 in my case above, I wasn't interested in threats where the enemy has access to the computer, only in internet men in the middle, fraudulent customers, etc. 15:06:23 ultimately, you can't do that much if the enemy can put your chip in an electron microscope. 15:08:01 or use a Princeton frozen ram attack. 15:08:34 k0001 [~k0001@host131.190-224-63.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 15:08:49 -!- snowylike [~sn@91-67-171-156-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:09:15 *|3b|* was thinking more of different VM on same cloud server, or in same datacenter, which are a bit more likely than physically disassembling the hardware 15:09:42 snowylike [~sn@91-67-171-156-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 15:10:41 -!- huangjs [~huangjs@199.180.254.36] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 15:13:05 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-66-162.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:14:50 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-66-162.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:16:49 -!- bitonic [~user@b0fb09c5.bb.sky.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:18:22 Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has joined #lisp 15:18:39 -!- yawnt is now known as yawnt`afk 15:19:43 i wonder ... would be nice to rip out the webapp control bits from weblocks 15:22:32 zorkmoid: good luck 15:23:48 yes.. :-) 15:24:10 -!- peterhil 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[~jtza8@105-236-66-162.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:40:17 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 15:40:27 pve [~user@melkinpaasi.cs.helsinki.fi] has joined #lisp 15:41:59 -!- linse [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1177916765.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: zzzz] 15:45:15 -!- bdmst [~bdmst@198.27.77.11] has left #lisp 15:46:07 findiggle [~kirkwood@173-10-106-172-BusName-Washington.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 15:49:12 normanrichards [~normanric@rrcs-108-178-120-144.sw.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:49:59 bitonic [~user@dyn1223-84.wlan.ic.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 15:56:24 -!- cfy [~ilisp@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:57:50 OK, I'll adopt chanl over patron, if only because the maintainer is still active in the cl community -- and the primitive seems somewhat more versatile. 16:00:01 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-66-162.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:00:14 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 16:00:16 leo2007 [~leo@182.48.109.29] has joined #lisp 16:01:55 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-66-162.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:05:00 pokes [~pp@pokes.xxx] has joined #lisp 16:07:27 mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-71-163-43-88.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:07:53 KingsKnighted [~quassel@c-174-52-149-13.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:09:09 ikki [~ikki@187.208.173.190] has joined #lisp 16:10:19 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-66-162.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 16:11:29 _d3f [~freedo@nl2.ovpn.to] has joined #lisp 16:13:46 moofy [~GIR@46-65-19-243.zone16.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 16:13:48 o/ 16:13:54 -!- macak [~macak@95.168.119.108] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:14:04 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 16:14:33 Hello. I'm interesting in learning lisp, at least, I think so. Wondered if any of you had any advice/suggestions/warnings about it? 16:14:50 minion tell moofy about PCL 16:15:12 http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book 16:15:55 moofy: as a warning: you may not be able to find a lisp job and find using other languages annoying once you got the hang of lisp. 16:16:19 I'm not a programmer. I'm just curious about programming I guess. 16:16:30 moofy: read what Fade said, then actually go write something, don't just read about it continually 16:16:36 moofy: oh, ok - then you should maybe not look at pcl as first step 16:16:42 ah 16:16:43 minion: tell moofy about gentle 16:16:44 moofy: have a look at gentle: "Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation" is a smoother introduction to lisp programming. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/ 16:17:11 but still, go write something .. and read lots of other code, particularly if you wonder how to do something 16:17:44 -!- youtopia is now known as AlmendraTostadaS 16:17:53 -!- AlmendraTostadaS is now known as AlmendraTostada 16:18:08 Righty-o. 16:18:18 I need to get something running so I can play with it first 16:18:31 also learn emacs if you don't already know it 16:18:36 But i will start having a look at those books. 16:18:52 I've poked vi once or twice but never emacs 16:19:24 moofy: emacs is much gentler 16:20:24 VI was certainly ehh, perplexing. 16:21:12 I've only really had to deal with html & css before, with a tiny bit of javascript. 16:21:31 I just read an article about lisp and it sounded kind of neat. Much more approachable than most at least. 16:22:34 it would be interestsing to have CL as a first language 16:23:13 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 16:23:51 -!- holodomor [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:25:13 on [~user@225.Red-83-32-9.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 16:25:36 -!- on is now known as Guest17436 16:25:47 I guess the only downside is lacking a human teacher who can point out mistakes 16:25:51 or solve frustrations. 16:25:52 Slivka [~Slivka@81.4.242.0] has joined #lisp 16:26:11 -!- ehu [~ehu@109.33.115.42] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:26:32 There's #clnoobs. 16:27:32 -!- hlavaty [~user@friedrichstrasse.knowledgetools.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:27:51 Vivitron [~Vivitron@pool-98-110-213-33.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:29:23 -!- asvil [~user@91.151.182.61] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:29:38 drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has joined #lisp 16:30:09 devin_ [~devin_@unaffiliated/devin/x-7957978] has joined #lisp 16:31:44 Hey getting ready to do a quick overview of lisp and write a short report on how to set it up on a machine, and execute some basic programs 16:31:44 I notice a rather stark participation difference, but that could well help. 16:31:54 Is it a pretty difficult language to learn? 16:32:11 devin_: not really 16:32:23 nice 16:32:58 devin_: what OS are you going to get it setup on? 16:33:06 Windows 16:33:09 -!- snowylike [~sn@91-67-171-156-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de] 16:33:11 Windows 8 16:34:46 devin_: I've not run lisp on windows for a while, but something like this should be relatively painless to get started: http://common-lisp.net/project/lispbox/ 16:34:46 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.99.40] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:35:06 hlavaty [~user@friedrichstrasse.knowledgetools.de] has joined #lisp 16:35:07 Ah, nice, I am just starting as a primer by reading wikipedia 16:35:15 I figured I would find something like that 16:35:16 mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.99.40] has joined #lisp 16:35:17 minion: tell devin_ about PCL 16:35:17 devin_: please look at PCL: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 16:35:23 I didn't know lispbox was still around. 16:35:31 -!- findiggle [~kirkwood@173-10-106-172-BusName-Washington.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:36:15 findiggle [~kirkwood@173-10-106-172-BusName-Washington.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 16:36:36 devin_: that comes with clozuereCL; sbcl tends to generate better code, but has a history of less-than-stellar windows support (but I hear it's Much Better Now) 16:36:59 they both implement the Common Lisp standard though, so switching between them isn't terrible 16:37:23 My assignment is to write reports on up to 2 languages which can be Prolog, Lisp (common, scheme, clojure), STRIPS, Planner, Netlogo 16:38:24 okay, I've not even heard of netlogo 16:38:41 What? No ML? 16:38:51 dlowe: ML is too mainstream :) 16:39:06 it's less mainstream than the lisp family :p 16:39:12 ah, wikipedia tells me it's an agent-based progrmming language 16:39:27 I was gonna write about the dialects of lisp, but I just realized I can only pick one 16:39:36 What's ML? 16:39:44 It's another family of languages 16:39:46 Is that abbreviated 16:40:05 "Meta Language" 16:40:08 Ahh 16:40:15 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:40:24 -!- loke [~elias@bb115-66-218-239.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:40:26 Anyway, is there a particular dialect I should go with, as far as by ease 16:40:28 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-66-162.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:40:56 *jasom* should really learn ML. Right now my use of it is limited to compiling the calendaring program I use. 16:41:10 devin_: If you're wanting to write a report on a language instead of write programs, it doesn't really matter 16:41:28 devin_: this channel is specifically about common lisp, so you can guess what we'll suggest... 16:42:28 jasom, Ahh ok, do the different dialects have different purposes? 16:42:29 -!- fsvehla [~fsvehla@chello084112185050.3.11.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Quit: fsvehla] 16:43:17 scheme is for bragging about how small your spec is, common lisp is for writing programs 16:43:30 clojure is for people who already know java 16:43:42 I know java 16:43:44 devin_: clojure specifically focuses on JVM interop, and default immutability 16:43:56 -!- w37 [~user@31.221.13.71] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:44:05 how small spec spec and how large the libraries of your implementation 16:44:06 or I should say "X interop" since it targets the CLR and javascript too 16:44:48 dlowe: I would have said scheme is all about continuation-passing 16:44:49 -!- ikki [~ikki@187.208.173.190] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 16:45:08 the purpose of scheme is to write scheme compilers ;) seriously, you just have to rely more on implementation-specific stuff, which isn't necessarily a bad thing when Racket has so many nifty extensions. 16:45:09 uh, I wouldn't 16:45:25 I hear Racket is nifty 16:45:45 So do the dialects differe quite abit ? 16:46:01 devin_: they do. 16:46:37 flip a coin :D 16:46:40 devin_: as much as C++ and Java differ, despite the syntax looking very similar 16:47:24 Ok, just curious, So if I know java should I try and learn Clojure because it will be easier to learn, or is Clojure just made to work with Java 16:47:58 For the little bit that I am getting into am I really going to see anything Similar 16:48:03 ikki [~ikki@187.208.173.190] has joined #lisp 16:48:15 devin_: Clojure won't be easier to learn the language part than any other 16:48:17 I'm told Clojure is hard to learn if you don't know java. That doesn't mean that knowing Java makes Clojure easy to learn. 16:48:34 KK 16:48:42 I think I will stick to common Lisp 16:48:55 devin_: Clojure was designed to leverage the large numbers of libraries already existant in Java; kind of "We want to write a programming language, not a standard library" sort of thing. 16:49:11 colbseton [~colbseton@5.9.236.116] has joined #lisp 16:49:14 -!- colbseton [~colbseton@5.9.236.116] has left #lisp 16:50:06 It's actually a fairly reasonable way to bootstrap a language; otherwise you have the dilemma of "nobody will write libraries for this language until they use it, and nobody will use it until there are libraries" 16:51:16 nyef [~nyef@c-76-119-183-159.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:51:22 k0001_ [~k0001@host24.190-137-35.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 16:52:06 Hello all. 16:52:21 Hello. 16:52:39 &REST lists aren't dynamic-extent by default, are they? 16:53:04 (That is, I can safely (defun foo (&rest rest) rest) and expect it to not break.) 16:53:30 seangrove [~user@c-69-181-197-122.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:53:32 right 16:53:42 nyef: nope, but they might reuse storage that is itself DX, via apply, iirc. Not that SBCL does that. 16:53:56 And if they are, I'd need to (apply #'list rest) to cause explicit consing? 16:54:17 copy-list, perhaps? 16:54:33 Or that, yeah. 16:55:09 -!- k0001 [~k0001@host131.190-224-63.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:55:53 Okay, that's what I needed to know. Thanks. (-: 16:56:14 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-66-162.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 16:56:40 (apply #'list) would avoid the double consing in copy-list, though. 16:57:53 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-66-162.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:00:08 xcombelle [~xcombelle@AToulouse-551-1-74-224.w92-146.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 17:00:23 -!- bitonic [~user@dyn1223-84.wlan.ic.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:03:01 pkhuong: why does copy-list double-cons? 17:04:27 aajmakin [aajmakin@kosh.org.aalto.fi] has joined #lisp 17:04:58 &rest + copy-list itself consing 17:06:03 oh 17:06:53 -!- spacefrogg is now known as spacefrogg^ 17:08:00 -!- [1]JPeterson [~JPeterson@s213-103-210-215.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:08:12 -!- [SLB]` is now known as [SLB] 17:09:07 spaceships [~spaceship@host-72-174-137-126.msl-mt.client.bresnan.net] has joined #lisp 17:09:10 ehu [~ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 17:10:06 -!- varjagg [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:10:29 -!- spaceships [~spaceship@host-72-174-137-126.msl-mt.client.bresnan.net] has quit [Client Quit] 17:13:31 -!- huangjs_ [~huangjs@114.91.233.191] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 17:13:43 huangjs_ [~huangjs@199.180.254.36] has joined #lisp 17:14:56 brandonz [~brandon@74-95-6-5-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 17:18:33 -!- McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:21:40 -!- weie_ [~eie@softbank221078042071.bbtec.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:22:16 weie [~eie@softbank221078042071.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 17:23:32 -!- zophy [goldenligh@gateway/shell/devio.us/x-dvlmsbfcgwcxumkd] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 17:25:07 McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has joined #lisp 17:25:41 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-66-162.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:27:12 Actually, backing up a bit, if you're using COPY-LIST explicitly, then you may as well mark the &REST list as being d-x. 17:27:31 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-66-162.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:27:37 -!- cods [~cods@tuxee.net] has quit [Changing host] 17:27:37 cods [~cods@rsbac/developer/cods] has joined #lisp 17:27:38 Sure, you're still consing twice, but one set is d-x consing, so deallocation is cheap. 17:27:49 (For that matter, the allocation is cheap as well.) 17:28:25 but apply #'list doesn't even DX cons (: 17:29:17 eldariof [~CLD@pppoe-215-15-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has joined #lisp 17:29:27 True enough, since it can LISTIFY-REST-ARGS or whatever the magic was called. 17:32:46 -!- moofy [~GIR@46-65-19-243.zone16.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: moofy] 17:34:36 moofy [~GIR@46-65-19-243.zone16.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 17:35:21 -!- findiggle [~kirkwood@173-10-106-172-BusName-Washington.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:36:01 findiggle [~kirkwood@173-10-106-172-BusName-Washington.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 17:40:26 -!- sirdancealot [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:41:18 -!- ehu [~ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:42:06 boogie [~boogie@wsip-98-172-168-236.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 17:43:40 -!- breakds [~breakds@ppp-70-226-163-93.dsl.mdsnwi.ameritech.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 17:43:48 -!- mcsontos [mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-zlwvifxzdbevewbx] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:46:09 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-170-203.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:48:55 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:49:37 didn't gigamonkey come up with a moniker for people who come off as trolls but are actually serious? 17:52:12 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-170-203.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 17:55:05 -!- k0001_ [~k0001@host24.190-137-35.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:55:44 Eldariof-ru [~CLD@188.168.243.251] has joined #lisp 17:56:33 duck troll 17:56:54 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@94.144.63.82] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:57:01 sirdancealot [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 17:57:01 yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.169] has joined #lisp 17:57:56 it quacks like a troll? 17:58:17 aye 17:59:11 thanks! 17:59:26 -!- eldariof [~CLD@pppoe-215-15-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:00:18 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:01:57 Is there a specific implementation I should choose 18:02:26 yes, the one that suits your needs 18:02:28 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-66-162.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:02:32 what os? 18:02:49 Windows 18:02:52 I am using lisp box 18:02:52 CCL 18:03:19 Someone should make FLCL 18:04:26 http://www.jesuswasaspacealien.com/ 18:04:34 oops 18:04:36 soryry 18:04:52 nan_ [~user@178.233.216.230] has joined #lisp 18:08:20 -!- Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:08:36 hello, some tutorial/blogs say there are problems with reading/writing large files or buffers, problems like both execution time and memory usage. But i don't undestand what they mean, since CL got arrays where you can specify type and have primitives like read-byte, what do they mean? 18:08:37 spaceships [~spaceship@host-72-174-137-126.msl-mt.client.bresnan.net] has joined #lisp 18:08:47 Is it difficult to get an implementation up and running, and if so what is the most vanilla one? 18:09:16 devin_: If I undestand what you mean, the most portable is ecl. 18:09:26 ok 18:09:37 (IMO :))\ 18:09:38 -!- spaceships [~spaceship@host-72-174-137-126.msl-mt.client.bresnan.net] has left #lisp 18:09:42 It's fairly difficult to write an implementation from scratch, but one usually doesn't have to. 18:10:02 Im just not looking for features, everything I am going to be doing is very basic more than likely 18:10:14 Though, I admit that getting SBCL to run on windows took a bit of doing. (-: 18:10:17 nan_, what are you trying to do? 18:10:24 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:11:10 -!- adelgado [~TomSawyer@65.23.61.98.nw.nuvox.net] has left #lisp 18:11:14 adelgado [~TomSawyer@65.23.61.98.nw.nuvox.net] has joined #lisp 18:11:36 Its safe to say that even the most portable implementation, will still do all the things common lisp expects it to do, they just get less portable as they add implementation? 18:11:42 Fare: i am writing some 3d file format reader/writers which will import/export large datasets and i wan't to do it on CL side rather than using CFFI 18:12:11 is it XML crap or bitdiddling? 18:12:40 for bitdiddling, there's nibbles 18:12:55 -!- victor_lowther [~victorlow@143.166.116.80] has quit [Quit: Leaving IRC - dircproxy 1.2.0] 18:13:14 devin_: i'd argue the simplest implementation to get up and running as a newcomer to lisp is SBCL on Linux. it's simple to install and many libraries are tested with it. 18:13:23 In my experience, implementations generally get more and more conformant to the spec 18:13:38 when they're not -- complain 18:13:49 madnificent, he said windows. 18:13:53 -!- ignas [~ignas@office.pov.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:14:01 -!- moofy [~GIR@46-65-19-243.zone16.bethere.co.uk] has left #lisp 18:14:03 Can I get SBCL on windows 18:14:09 not the same 18:14:23 maybe akovalenko's fork, then. 18:14:30 Fare: not xml no, if you are asking me. currently a binary format and a sexp like format 18:14:53 hmm, for windows i guess CLISP is the simplest to run, and it's still somewhat tested. perhaps CCL (Clozure) 18:15:36 on windows one of the commercial distributios wuld be the simplest to run. 18:15:41 lispworks or allegro 18:16:02 I've never liked using CLISP, even on windows. You know, one angle would be to just run a Linux VM... 18:16:04 devin_: the more an implementation matures, the more it follows the full common lisp spec (tiny bugs get worked out). it seems to me that more mature implementations also have support for more defacto standard libraries, like bordeaux-threads, or closer-mop. i don't have data to prove it though. 18:16:04 Windows seems to be very alien to open source tools, specially lisp tools 18:16:14 and if you're not actually interested in lisp per se, and just want to finish this report, then you could just install drracket 18:16:23 which has a standard binary installer on windows. 18:16:24 -!- MrMc [~user@91-64-125-247-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:16:26 dioxirane [~OXO@unaffiliated/dioxirane] has joined #lisp 18:16:38 nan_, are you designing your own format? 18:16:48 yep 18:17:24 -!- edgar-rft [~GOD@HSI-KBW-149-172-63-75.hsi13.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Quit: dead] 18:17:27 How about allegro, it talks about it in the Practical Common Lisp as a trial 18:17:45 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@2-230-138-74.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:17:50 I'd say it's pretty reasonable that the open source OSes would have more open source development 18:18:10 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-71-163-43-88.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 18:19:09 I hear CCL works very well on windows. SBCL may be good enough, even just the official source. Both have standard binary installers, iirc. 18:19:10 devin_: it is limited in memory use, IIRC, i think you can use it to learn lisp. 18:19:27 devin_: and i'd go for CCL 18:19:40 (unless you're averse to emacs) 18:20:18 Never used emacs but I am going to use it for the write up cause it comes with Lispbox 18:20:57 So I am confused if CCL have anything to do with the Clojure dialect 18:21:06 drmeister [~drmeister@wirelessNAT188.wireless.temple.edu] has joined #lisp 18:21:21 devin_: clojure != clozure common lisp 18:21:24 -!- Fare [~fare@173-9-65-97-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:21:26 (mind the z) 18:21:27 No. It predates Clojure by a long time. 18:21:29 Bike [~Glossina@63-229-134-7.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 18:21:34 Kk 18:21:40 I didn't realize it at first 18:21:48 Clojure, Clozure, and Closure are all different things. 18:21:56 -!- leo2007 [~leo@182.48.109.29] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.2.93.1] 18:22:30 dim: I don't remember what you're refering to, probably not. <21:57:14> pjb: you did solve the portable launch.sh script problem, right? 18:22:54 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-141-46-197.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:23:17 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@wirelessNAT188.wireless.temple.edu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:23:43 drmeister [~drmeister@wirelessNAT188.wireless.temple.edu] has joined #lisp 18:26:41 Has anyone implemented SYMBOL-MACROLET within a Common Lisp compiler? 18:26:57 -!- dioxirane [~OXO@unaffiliated/dioxirane] has left #lisp 18:26:59 I'm sure that someone has, yes. 18:27:01 I am doing that right now and would love to ask some questions. 18:27:09 drmeister: I'm guessing that a future you has 18:27:19 kennyd [~kennyd@93-141-19-3.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 18:27:41 jasom: I really wish that guy were on here. 18:27:56 I haven't implemented SYMBOL-MACROLET, but I know a few things about compilers, and a few things about a specific Common Lisp compiler. 18:28:16 The CLHS says that symbol-macrolet expansions within the targets of SETQ and PSETQ need to be converted to SETF and PSETF respectively. 18:28:53 Okay, that sounds reasonable. 18:28:54 It seems to me that I don't have to do anything explicit for PSETQ->PSETF because PSETQ is a macro and expands to SETQ's which I can convert to SETF's. 18:29:42 what about multiple-value-setq? 18:29:58 Not convinced, but I'm willing to ignore that case as being fairly rare anyway. 18:30:34 I've augmented my environments to keep track of symbol-macrolet definitions and I'm going to change symbol lookup so that symbols are MACROEXPANDed. Then I'm going to change SETQ so that if the target symbol is a SYMBOL-MACROLET symbol it will generate code for a SETF on it. 18:30:54 I think that's all I need to do to implement SYMBOL-MACROLET - am I missing something? 18:30:56 That sounds about right. 18:31:08 Mind the interaction with DEFINE-SYMBOL-MACRO, btw. 18:31:09 what about define-symbol-macro? 18:31:34 stassats: d-: 18:31:51 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 18:32:08 -!- dented42 [~dented42@opengroove.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:32:44 I don't know yet about define-symbol-macro, this is why I come here, so I can learn about these things on the street. 18:33:32 I'm guessing that since define-symbol-macro is a macro that it will be implemented using the special operators and I have all the special operators covered except symbol-macrolet. 18:33:35 alesguzik [~alesguzik@ns.bsuir.by] has joined #lisp 18:33:43 mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has joined #lisp 18:34:07 um, that's not a good reasoning 18:35:02 yeah that's not the case, none of the special operators do what def-symbol-macro does 18:35:08 clhs define-symbol-macro 18:35:08 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defi_1.htm 18:36:25 -!- findiggle [~kirkwood@173-10-106-172-BusName-Washington.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:36:35 Are implementations just compilers and interpreters? What else do that do> 18:36:38 Now, what was that completely crazy-stupid thing that I did using SYMBOL-MACROLET and LABELS to allow doing a SETF of a symbol to modify a sigcontext? 18:36:44 s/>/? 18:36:44 -!- yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.169] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:36:57 devin_: the library 18:37:15 devin_: There's also the runtime libraries, as stassats says. 18:37:19 a debugger 18:37:32 cross-referencing 18:37:32 -!- alesguzik [~alesguzik@ns.bsuir.by] has quit [Client Quit] 18:37:40 profilers 18:37:55 foreign function interface 18:37:55 Everything else is both optional and typically part of the runtime libraries. 18:38:09 garbage collection 18:38:23 GC is non-standard, too 18:38:36 Non-standard, but rather strongly implied. 18:38:44 And still part of the runtime library. 18:38:45 you can run on a turing machine 18:38:46 findiggle [~kirkwood@173-10-106-172-BusName-Washington.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 18:38:50 conveniently assumed 18:39:16 It's rather hard to implement WITH-OPEN-FILE on a turing machine. Something about them being lousy at I/O. 18:39:30 Ok, I see what DEFINE-SYMBOL-MACRO is doing, it's a global symbol-macro - it will just require a tweak to my macro expander. 18:39:49 -!- findiggle [~kirkwood@173-10-106-172-BusName-Washington.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Client Quit] 18:39:51 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 18:39:56 drmeister: what about being able to be shadowed by let? 18:39:57 drmeister: it defines a global lexical variable-looking thing! It's pretty great that way. 18:40:06 drmeister: it's also lexical though 18:40:24 global lexical bindings when there is no global lexical environment :) 18:41:06 yeah, that always made my brain hurt 18:41:36 stassats: Being shadowed by let is handled by my Environment object. 18:41:58 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@95.56.121.189] has joined #lisp 18:41:58 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@95.56.121.189] has quit [Changing host] 18:41:58 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 18:41:58 drmeister: but it is shadowed differently than specials, don't forget that 18:42:21 findiggle [~kirkwood@173-10-106-172-BusName-Washington.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 18:42:22 jasom: What's lexical though? The symbol defined by define-symbol-macro? 18:42:23 Okay, I'm using ST-JSON, and trying to write automated tests for things. I have a function that returns an ST-JSON:JSO, and wish to make sure that the JSO returned is correct for the given input. I'm fairly sure that I can't just use #'EQL. Does anyone have any approaches to suggest? 18:43:41 drmeister: (defvar *foo* 0) (let ((*foo* 1)) ...) the let makes a dynamic binding (define-symbol-macro foo 0) (let ((foo 1)) ...) makes a lexical binding 18:44:21 Ah, but you can't SET the symbol-macro. 18:44:39 How about (define-symbol-macro foo (symbol-value 'foo))? 18:44:58 replcated [~user@static-241-143-171-68.axsne.net] has joined #lisp 18:45:40 jasom: In the second (define-symbol-macro foo 0) (let ((foo 1)) ...) case, doesn't the (let ((foo 1))...) completely shadow the symbol-macro definition? 18:46:16 drmeister: Yes, it does, which is the point. 18:46:27 drmeister: yes 18:46:53 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@rrcs-108-178-120-144.sw.biz.rr.com] has quit [] 18:46:55 rosario_r [~user@p57AE7876.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:47:20 jasom: That's a relief - that will be easy to implement. 18:48:01 drmeister: symbol-macrolet will completely shadow it too 18:48:18 What is the best way to map over n elements of a list at once? I miss something like (map-n 2 (lambda (x y) (+ x y)) (list 1 2 3 4)). 18:48:46 (loop for (a b) on list by #'cddr) 18:49:02 rosario_r: (loop for (a b) on ... er stassats beat me to it 18:49:23 thanks, that loop monster again :) 18:49:44 If you want to map by more than four elements at a time, you'll need to be a bit more creative with the BY part of the FOR-vars-ON clause. 18:50:19 nthcdr? 18:51:34 jasom: So when you say define-symbol-macrolet is lexical you mean that it is shadowed by lexical bindings in LET and SYMBOL-MACROLET - now I understand what "being lexical" means in this context. 18:51:49 (apply #'compose (make-list n :initial-element #'cdr)), of course 18:52:22 -!- DrPete [~DrPete@unaffiliated/drpete] has left #lisp 18:52:42 minion: memo for Ener2: it's possible; google cll for deflex or defglobal. In CL you can create "lexical" globals using define-symbol-macro. 18:52:42 Remembered. I'll tell Ener2 when he/she/it next speaks. 18:53:20 Bike: as apposed to (lambda (x) (nthcdr n x))? 18:53:32 jasom: I've interpreted "being lexical" as "stored in the lexical environment" and "being dynamic" as stored in the global/dynamic environment. Define-symbol-macrolet will store a symbol-macro in the global environment but it will be shadowed by lexical things. 18:53:43 stassats: wasn't serious 18:53:57 drmeister: I mainly ment that it doesn't make the bindings of it dynamic, which I think all other ways of establishing a global binding do 18:54:25 Hey, to be clear, I do need to pick and implementation before I install Lispbox right? An implementation would not come with it? 18:54:27 jasom: Got it. Thank you for illuminating that for me. 18:54:37 devin_: lispbox includes an implementation 18:54:39 (let (foo) (declare (special foo)) ...) doesn't make FOO global, but it is dynamic 18:54:45 LOL 18:55:00 Well that was a good half hour waister 18:55:07 dlowe: which doesn't contradict what I said 18:55:07 s/waister/waisted 18:55:18 jasom: I wasn't trying to 18:55:22 ah 18:55:22 jasom: defensive much? 18:55:25 s/waisted/wasted 18:55:40 as in drunk? 18:55:41 dlowe: just thought I might have mis-typed 18:56:05 that was to drmeister who looked like he might be conflating them 18:56:11 ah 18:56:55 (though, frankly, I wouldn't mind all special variables being global) 18:57:00 out of curiousity, what is the use-case for local dynamic bindings? 18:57:26 just sharing state between all the closures established inside the binding? 18:57:38 MrMc [~user@91-64-125-247-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 18:57:44 dlowe: The thing is if I (let (foo) (declare (special foo)) (setq foo 42) ...) 42 is now stored in the value slot of the symbol 'FOO. Once you leave the LET lexical scope FOO can't be used as a global symbol but the value 42 is still stored in there. If later I say (let (foo) (declare (special foo)) (print foo)) it will print 42. 18:57:50 dynamic extent special variables? 18:58:17 i've found they are good at confusing me 18:58:21 -!- Guest17436 [~user@225.Red-83-32-9.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has left #lisp 18:58:26 drmeister: that's wrong, i'm pretty sure 18:58:52 cl-ppcre uses them a lot, and doesn't make them wear ear-muffs, gets confusing pretty fast 18:59:03 what does (let ((foo 3)) (declare (special foo)) (symbol-value 'foo)) do? 18:59:15 3 19:00:07 actually that's wrong for two reasons, drmeister. after the first let foo should be unbound, and in the second let foo is rebound to nil. 19:00:53 Ok, wait - it doesn't do that. I only wrote the interpreter and compiler - I don't necessarily know what they do. :-) 19:01:33 it has a dynamic-extent, ones the execution reaches the closing parenthesis of (let ), the previous binding is restored 19:01:46 maligree [~maligree@fedora/maligree] has joined #lisp 19:01:47 (or lack of binding) 19:01:52 drmeister: http://paste.lisp.org/+2WQ8 19:02:05 it's the same as with lexical variables, the difference is in scope 19:02:45 could someone explain to me why CL use more memory than its C equivalent, if i can have unboxed arrays with (make-array n :element-type some-type)? Are these things i read from random blogs just nonsense? thanks! 19:03:31 is all you do creating specialized arrays? 19:04:04 jasom: When I evaluate the code you provided in my interpreter it returns 1. 19:04:13 jasom: That's good right? 19:04:16 drmeister: right 19:04:19 besides, the premise is ambiguous, what for is CL using more memory? 19:04:30 stassats: i am talking about the output, not the memory usage of an algorithm 19:05:23 i'm understanding what you're saying even less now 19:05:53 stassats: i've read from somewhere (don't remember where now), CL has problems when reading large files/buffers 19:06:19 and i can't see why 19:06:31 it doesn't have any problems 19:07:14 paralumina [~paralumin@ip72-213-139-175.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 19:07:19 IO performance can be surprisingly bad for text, if you're not careful. 19:08:43 Kk thanks guys, done for now, be back later 19:08:52 -!- MrMc [~user@91-64-125-247-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 19:09:01 jasom: Ok, everything regarding dynamic/special/lexical bindings in my code is ok. I do put the value in the global symbol value slot but first I save the existing value and I restore that value when I leave the lexical scope. 19:09:12 -!- devin_ [~devin_@unaffiliated/devin/x-7957978] has left #lisp 19:09:25 it's a stack 19:10:14 stassats: Yes, essentially it behaves like a stack. 19:11:43 pkhuong: what i am asking is, is this something inherent to CL or just because of the specific implementation of an algorithm, if it is the latter than it applies to all languages 19:12:07 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:12:20 the surprising slowdowns are mostly implementation-specific. 19:13:05 Hermit [~hermit@unaffiliated/grpala] has joined #lisp 19:13:29 I read some interesting emails from 2002 on the Gcl-devel mailing list. They were discussing rewriting the code implementing SYMBOL-MACROLET because their first implementation apparently walked the body and substituted symbols which is wrong. 19:14:11 jarmond [~user@93-96-213-180.zone4.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:15:00 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:15:24 ehu [~ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 19:16:03 I find this interesting because it affirms that the proper solution to implementing parts of the CLHS are not trivial or obvious. 19:16:14 -!- browndawg [~browndawg@117.201.88.151] has left #lisp 19:16:20 Eldariof93-ru [~CLD@pppoe-215-89-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has joined #lisp 19:16:27 define obvious 19:16:33 -!- brandonz [~brandon@74-95-6-5-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:16:47 -!- Eldariof-ru [~CLD@188.168.243.251] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:17:16 the right way to implement symbol-macrolet is obvious: as part of the regular macroexpansion process. 19:18:08 brandonz [~brandon@74-95-6-5-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 19:18:19 stassats: I can't - I'm philsophizing - obvious to me is when the code sort of writes itself - you arrive at the point where you need to implement a piece of code and the implementation is immediately apparent because you have all the correct infrastructure in place. 19:19:13 pkhuong: That wasn't how the Gcl developers thought in 2002. 19:19:16 - 19:19:53 But I don't mean to start an argument. I just want to keep moving forward. 19:20:11 drmeister: the point of define-symbol-macro and symbol-macrolet is to extend the _environment_ with a symbol macro. 19:20:37 You need to have an implementation specific environment manipulating API to expand those macros. 19:20:55 drmeister: you should read Lisp in Small Pieces http://pagesperso-systeme.lip6.fr/Christian.Queinnec/WWW/LiSP.html http://pagesperso-systeme.lip6.fr/Christian.Queinnec/Books/LiSP-2ndEdition-2006Dec11.tgz 19:21:13 browndawg [~browndawg@117.201.88.151] has joined #lisp 19:21:17 -!- browndawg [~browndawg@117.201.88.151] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 19:21:38 browndawg [~browndawg@117.201.88.151] has joined #lisp 19:21:45 -!- browndawg [~browndawg@117.201.88.151] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 19:22:03 pjb: I see that now. I've read parts of L.I.S.P. so many times that they are burned into my retinas. 19:22:18 browndawg [~browndawg@117.201.88.151] has joined #lisp 19:23:20 That's good :-) 19:23:24 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 19:27:31 k0001 [~k0001@host222.186-109-177.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 19:28:19 billstclair [~billstcla@67.158.164.249] has joined #lisp 19:28:19 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@67.158.164.249] has quit [Changing host] 19:28:19 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 19:29:36 mattrepl [~mattrepl@ssid-mason-secure.wireless.gmu.edu] has joined #lisp 19:29:52 -!- jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@188.251.139.151] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:31:10 -!- replcated [~user@static-241-143-171-68.axsne.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:31:46 -!- browndawg [~browndawg@117.201.88.151] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:34:32 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@ssid-mason-secure.wireless.gmu.edu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:34:40 mattrepl_ [~mattrepl@SSID-MASON-SECURE.wireless.gmu.edu] has joined #lisp 19:35:07 -!- mattrepl_ [~mattrepl@SSID-MASON-SECURE.wireless.gmu.edu] has quit [Write error: Connection reset by peer] 19:35:17 mattrepl [~mattrepl@SSID-MASON-SECURE.wireless.gmu.edu] has joined #lisp 19:35:46 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@SSID-MASON-SECURE.wireless.gmu.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:36:04 mattrepl [~mattrepl@129.174.219.178] has joined #lisp 19:38:43 -!- Dalek_Baldwin [~Adium@71-84-34-33.dhcp.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:40:25 ebobby [~fms@199.21.86.106] has joined #lisp 19:40:37 Fare [~fare@216.239.55.82] has joined #lisp 19:41:36 -!- brandonz [~brandon@74-95-6-5-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:41:41 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 19:42:38 am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has joined #lisp 19:42:51 -!- answer_42 [~answer_42@gateway/tor-sasl/answer42/x-66983568] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:43:41 -!- Eldariof93-ru [~CLD@pppoe-215-89-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has quit [] 19:43:47 puchacz [~puchacz@46-65-36-47.zone16.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:45:45 Seems python is usable after all: http://ideone.com/W9Kj9E 19:46:06 -!- Fare [~fare@216.239.55.82] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 19:46:09 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:48:18 drmeiste_ [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has joined #lisp 19:48:33 -!- k0001 [~k0001@host222.186-109-177.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 19:51:57 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@wirelessNAT188.wireless.temple.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 19:56:26 I prefer my text tokens to mean something 19:57:01 But at least you can edit it with paredit. 19:57:49 nha [~prefect@brln-4d0c7a0b.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 19:59:42 andy [andy@2-224-33-140.ip168.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 20:00:19 -!- fe[nl]ix 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[~user@46.115.45.64] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:25:08 akovalenko [~user@195.18.46.21] has joined #lisp 20:28:48 ASau [~user@46.115.45.64] has joined #lisp 20:30:13 nha [~prefect@brln-4d0c7a0b.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 20:30:31 joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@mail.concordusapps.com] has joined #lisp 20:31:00 Juanito-Jons [~jreynoso@187.240.179.119] has joined #lisp 20:31:54 -!- b1rkh0ff [~b1rkh0ff@178.77.6.39] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:33:05 -!- cdidd [~cdidd@95-25-30-139.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:33:52 -!- tensorpudding [~tensorpud@99.148.195.221] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:33:54 -!- _d3f [~freedo@nl2.ovpn.to] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:36:32 *drewc* finished reading the scrollback, and is glad he has nothing to say beyond "Hello #Lisp'ers!" :) 20:36:40 b1rkh0ff [~b1rkh0ff@178.77.6.39] has joined #lisp 20:36:56 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-192-76.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:37:03 Hello, drewc! 20:37:30 sykopomp: G'morn/aft/eve/night! 20:40:31 -!- spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:40:34 Hello drewc. 20:40:57 *drewc* is now reading c.l.l ... and has nothing to say to Youtopia b/c he does not feed trolls and does not like pseudointellectuals ;) 20:41:19 drewc: Do you have any ideas on how to write a test case for a function that produces an ST-JSON:JSO? 20:41:23 nyef: hey hey! read over you COPY-LIST and &REST things as well ... 20:42:02 the JSO is a struct IIRC, yes? 20:42:17 Yes, with an alist as a slot. 20:42:17 and what do we want/need to test? 20:42:29 The members of the alist. 20:42:38 sirdancealot [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 20:42:57 For equality with another alist, but without respect to order. 20:43:16 drewc: Depressing 20:44:06 clop [~jared@moat3.centtech.com] has joined #lisp 20:44:20 -!- ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:45:00 -!- KingsKnighted [~quassel@c-174-52-149-13.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:45:02 nyef: (loop for (key . val) on alist1 by #'cddr unless (assoc key alist2 :test #'equalp) do (error "test failed")) ? 20:45:30 oh wait, eq for LENGTH as well 20:46:27 but beyond that, that should work and is the first thing that went through my head as I have something similar only the ALIST comes from POSTMODERN rather then ST-JSON 20:46:46 Mmm... That might work, actually. We'd want the list of fields to check to be alist1 and the list of fields returned to be alist2... But ST-JSON::JSO-ALIST isn't public. 20:47:25 On the other hand, if we're iterating over the oracle copy and looking up in the test copy, we can just use GETJSO. 20:47:39 well, here is the first test .... read-from-string that symbol and fail if it is not there and does not do what you want etc 20:47:39 Okay, that's workable. Thanks. (-: 20:48:52 np, happy to oblige :) 20:53:22 heh ... trying not to get involved even though a link to my docs is in one of his/her/their c.l.l posts and has no clue beyond 'this is what googe search turned up!'... 20:53:32 google* 20:53:46 rwiker [~rwiker@80.202.198.32] has joined #lisp 20:58:48 -!- Myk267 [~myk@adsl-71-149-249-45.dsl.mtry01.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Things never change, only rearrange.] 21:09:56 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@129.174.219.178] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 21:11:26 brandonz [~brandon@74-95-6-5-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 21:11:34 *drewc* went ahead and followed up to that c.l.l posting. sigh. 21:19:54 mattrepl [~mattrepl@ssid-mason-secure.wireless.gmu.edu] has joined #lisp 21:21:56 -!- Slivka [~Slivka@81.4.242.0] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:22:01 -!- drmeiste_ [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:22:37 replcated [~user@24-217-97-210.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 21:23:47 -!- ebobby [~fms@199.21.86.106] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 21:24:10 fsvehla [~fsvehla@h081217181184.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 21:28:03 devin_ [~devin_@unaffiliated/devin/x-7957978] has joined #lisp 21:28:09 Back 21:28:28 -!- weie [~eie@softbank221078042071.bbtec.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 21:29:58 -!- am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 21:30:33 -!- rwiker [~rwiker@80.202.198.32] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 21:33:22 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 21:34:17 svs_ [~svs@104-252-AGAVEBB-NM.abq.nm.agavebb.net] has joined #lisp 21:36:23 -!- fsvehla [~fsvehla@h081217181184.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Quit: fsvehla] 21:37:00 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-590c399a.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:37:46 drewc: there ought to be a side channel with metadata about the current wheat and chaff 21:38:25 and about issues like google groups mangling replies 21:38:42 let's call it #lisp 21:39:07 -!- pavelpenev [~quassel@85-130-11-8.2073813645.shumen.cablebg.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:39:12 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.214] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:39:17 Sorry. 21:40:12 Dalek_Baldwin [~Adium@108-225-26-178.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:40:19 *stassats`* just added repl presentations to his next-slime-killer 21:40:56 A good acronym is probably as or more important 21:41:25 Name it after one of the actors in Ghostbusters? 21:41:49 well, i recently came up with MALE: Miles Ahead Lisp Environment, with Miles being an anagram of Slime, but i'm not sure whether i like it 21:42:24 Lisp Ahead for Miles Environment 21:42:33 -!- foreignFunction [~niksaak@94.27.88.72] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:42:33 ebobby [~fms@199.21.86.106] has joined #lisp 21:43:00 Lisp At Uber-Light Speed? 21:44:07 maybe something acronymized to LoL, or a homonym for closure 21:44:08 ARFS: A Replacement For Slime ? 21:44:45 qlosure, it uses Qt, after all 21:44:45 (Please don't call it ARFS.) 21:45:41 Qt? My interest is waning. 21:46:04 what else would it be using? surely not mcclim 21:46:32 opengl 21:46:32 emacs? 21:46:36 <_tca> Your Own Lisp OS 21:46:44 daimrod: there's this thing called Slime already 21:47:01 bitonic [~user@b0fb09c5.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 21:47:09 stassats: you could just name it something unrelated 21:47:23 I know but you said it's suppose to be a slime-killer. 21:47:38 daimrod: well, nobody would want to use slime after it! 21:47:48 like armodillo 21:47:52 armadillo 21:47:59 stassats`: demo video pls 21:48:16 stassats`: well, I'll never use it if it's not in emacs :( 21:49:03 I might. It wouldn't bother me too much to use slime and a gui repl at the same time 21:49:11 at least if there were big enough advantages 21:49:36 daimrod: your loss, people will be laughing at you like they laugh at vim users now 21:49:40 xristos: nothing to show 21:50:20 Well, I'd like to see a "good bits" version of CLIM, but I realize that that's both a lot of work, and not likely to be well-motivated. 21:51:15 I'm curious as to whether CLIM or some other gui framework for lisp has multiple backend support 21:51:23 dlowe: it's supposed to be a repl, a text-editor, an inspector and the whole shebang 21:51:37 but each could be used separately 21:51:45 stassats: going to build off climacs or write it all yourself? 21:51:49 well, in the year 2525, if the man is still alive 21:52:26 dlowe: I believe that McCLIM has multiple backends, but I don't know that any of them are worth using. 21:52:28 well, reusing things from swank, and other, if possible 21:52:47 nyef: I've only seen the default ugly McCLIM 21:53:27 and also making small independent libraries, like for arglists, backtraces, completions 21:53:44 I know that with my own CLIM implementation project (not yet at the point of getting a window on the screen), I'm making a point of keeping track of the backend protocols so that writing a new backend CAN be done. 21:54:06 being a slime developer, and slime being quite good isn't really motivating, but oh well 21:54:42 How's the refactoring support in SLIME these days, btw? 21:54:51 tensorpudding [~tensorpud@99.148.207.31] has joined #lisp 21:54:52 zilch 21:54:57 Pity. 21:55:16 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-174-115.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:55:27 -!- McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:55:32 would be solved in "insert the name of the next slime killer" 21:55:39 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:55:49 And I took a look at redshank, and there's only one bit in there that actually looks like it'd be nice to have, and that's the extract-method bit. 21:56:14 -!- nan_ [~user@178.233.216.230] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:56:23 worstadmin [~worst@174.141.213.1] has joined #lisp 21:56:39 There once was a project named "to be named later". I used to have a private project called "insert project name". If memory serves, "ZORK" was a placeholder name at one point. 21:57:09 Zero Originality Required K... 21:58:49 I once had a library named tbd :) 21:59:14 to be debugged 22:01:31 How about "just another programming environment"? It'd be FUNNY! 22:01:58 JAPE 22:02:26 nyef: it's not just another, it's the greatest of them all! 22:02:35 GOAT 22:03:06 -!- Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:03:37 minion: what does GOAT stand for? 22:03:38 Grainer Overadvance Artophorion Toothchiseled 22:04:52 maybe named 2525, after the estimated time of completion 22:06:57 -!- huangjs_ [~huangjs@199.180.254.36] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 22:07:56 Call it "Camelot", and name each of the components after a member of court? 22:08:18 The once-and-future debugger? 22:09:11 the inspector would be Exchequer 22:12:29 ... A better name for that would be "Fabian of the Yard". 22:14:03 -!- AeroNotix [~xeno@aboa13.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: Uploading hax.....] 22:14:05 and the editor, Scrivener 22:14:08 -!- replcated [~user@24-217-97-210.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:14:11 -!- clox [~user@rrcs-208-125-109-116.nys.biz.rr.com] has left #lisp 22:14:37 there's already a word process going by that name 22:14:45 processor 22:20:23 -!- impomatic [~digital_w@146.90.165.144] has quit [Quit: impomatic] 22:23:47 -!- CrazyEddy [~labile@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:25:16 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@rrcs-108-178-120-144.sw.biz.rr.com] has quit [] 22:29:17 Going back a bit, what would constitute "non-ugly" CLIM? 22:30:14 something which looks like the rest of the GUI on a said platform 22:30:45 -!- adelgado [~TomSawyer@65.23.61.98.nw.nuvox.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:30:46 Xach: I agree 100% with the wheat/chaff thing... I just wonder if 'the answer is blowing in the wind' sometimes, or if _I_ am chaff for that mattter. 22:30:53 So... if one were to only have CLIM apps, they immediately become pretty? 22:31:03 naturally 22:31:23 see, nobody says that opengenera is ugly 22:31:32 Heh. 22:31:44 Unfortunately McCLIM doesn't look like Genera either. 22:31:56 Almost nobody USES opengenera, and those that do don't do so for the aesthetics. 22:32:02 It looks a bit like an unfinished port of the OpenLook toolkit. 22:32:32 Still, I love some of the ideas behind CLIM. 22:32:55 And hope to use it one day. 22:32:55 And then it turns out that there's this WITH-LOOK-AND-FEEL-REALIZATION which allow people to substitute in different implementations of abstract pane classes such as buttons and whatnot. 22:32:57 opengenera got a retro look, everybody says, "ooh, that's hip, man" 22:33:27 ldionmarcil [~user@unaffiliated/maden] has joined #lisp 22:33:31 or vintage, whichever is on vogue nowdays 22:36:14 Fare [~fare@216.239.55.82] has joined #lisp 22:36:16 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:36:24 -!- ldionmarcil [~user@unaffiliated/maden] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:39:29 -!- abeaumont [~abeaumont@133.Red-81-34-239.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:41:44 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-170-203.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:42:40 -!- AlmendraTostada [~AllInOne@236.Red-2-140-43.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.9.2] 22:50:37 bananagram [~bot@c-98-198-236-112.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:50:42 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 22:52:29 -!- stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-229-239.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 22:53:10 -!- nyef [~nyef@c-76-119-183-159.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: G'night all.] 22:54:01 -!- [SLB] is now known as [SLB]` 22:57:02 -!- maligree [~maligree@fedora/maligree] has quit [Quit: I've had it.] 22:57:20 -!- Juanito-Jons [~jreynoso@187.240.179.119] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:57:23 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:58:47 -!- Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-96-255-72-75.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:01:07 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:01:54 -!- nha [~prefect@brln-4d0c7a0b.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:02:10 lmj` [~lmj`@c-71-234-74-120.hsd1.ct.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:03:07 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:03:11 -!- bitonic [~user@b0fb09c5.bb.sky.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 23:06:18 I'd like to have a macroexpand-most function which is like macroexpand-all but does not expand macros in the CL package. It would still step into macro bodies when applicable. 23:06:37 In other words if you give it portable CL then it outputs portable CL. 23:06:55 abeaumont [~abeaumont@133.Red-81-34-239.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 23:07:35 Keshi [~Keshi@unaffiliated/keshi] has joined #lisp 23:08:16 It would be useful with slime. 23:08:30 and other things, of course 23:08:34 so you'd have to teach it how to walk all CL macros? 23:08:44 yeah 23:08:55 snearch [~snearch@89.204.135.204] has joined #lisp 23:09:10 JPeterson [~JPeterson@s213-103-210-215.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 23:09:16 bitonic [~user@b0fb09c5.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 23:09:18 with slime i just use the macroexpand buffer interactively 23:09:18 probably simpler to write your own expander for standard macros. 23:10:03 -!- snearch [~snearch@89.204.135.204] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 23:10:11 I would use it to serialize lambdas portably. 23:10:24 -!- drewc [~drewc@50.7.166.100] has left #lisp 23:10:32 drewc [~drewc@50.7.166.100] has joined #lisp 23:11:51 -!- puchacz [~puchacz@46-65-36-47.zone16.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:12:01 heh ... typed the wrong key seq there and /part' ed rather than switched buffers :) 23:12:33 It looks like the hu.dwim.walker is the only walker available in quicklisp. 23:12:54 (defun macroexpand-all (f) (cond ((atom f) f)((and (symbolp (car f)) #| add CL non expand here|# (macro-function (car f))) (macroexpand-all (macroexpand f))) (t (mapcar #'macroexpand-all f)))) 23:13:14 lmj`: I think the approach I used in common cold is nicer for that (: 23:14:14 or: serializing lambdas portable has little to do with macroexpansion per se, depending on the definition of LAMBDAs :) 23:14:57 yes, I mean serializing lambda forms 23:15:16 "add cl non-expand" is the tricky part, you need to actually have templates for all CL macros/special forms. 23:15:17 lmj`: you don't necessarily need to serialise the source, you only need a consistent serialisable identifier for it. 23:15:30 that said, I do serialize 'LAMBDA's in one form, http://common-lisp.net/project/bese/docs/arnesi/html/Automatically_Converting_a_Subset_of_Common_Lisp_to_CPS.html 23:15:47 foom: that, and non-CL macros may internally call macroexpand on CL macros. 23:15:50 Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-96-255-72-75.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:15:59 "We convert the code in two distinct passes. The first pass performs macro expansion, variable renaming and checks that only 'good' special operators appear in the code." 23:16:02 ugh, why would a macro call macroexpand. 23:16:06 don't do that 23:16:10 foom: ITERATE. 23:17:04 -!- Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-96-255-72-75.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:17:18 ...ugh, why would it do that? 23:17:26 pkhuong: I'm serializing closures as well, so I use source to establish the captured bindings. 23:18:03 lmj`: macroexpansion-time environment access may be simpler. 23:18:25 foom: it needs a codewalker to expand its magic deep in CL forms. 23:18:34 pkhuong: that's what it is 23:18:49 LiamH [~none@vpn219118.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 23:19:07 I find free symbols with the code walker, then use variable-information to weed out the cruft. 23:19:23 -!- Posterdati [~antani@host160-215-dynamic.11-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:19:51 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:19:56 I'm using sb-walker, though hu.dwim.walker works as well (18 dependencies!) 23:20:27 hu.dwim.walker uses iterate, so the walker needs a walker 23:21:01 lmj`: I did that by hooking in SBCL's regular environment struct. It's plausible that other implementations will be similar. cltl2 environment access imposes some useful constraints. 23:21:08 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:23:52 Is this a bug in sb-walker? https://gist.github.com/lmj/5052795 23:24:12 -!- hiato [~nine@196-215-121-221.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 23:24:15 ... I mean in variable-information? 23:25:32 Doug201 [48e53fd8@gateway/web/freenode/ip.72.229.63.216] has joined #lisp 23:25:39 lmj`: IIRC, there are slight difference between environments created by sb-walker and regular ones. It's suboptimal, certainly. 23:28:51 -!- stopbit [~stopbit@static-108-48-124-82.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:31:09 nialo [~nialo@ool-44c53f01.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 23:31:18 hiato [~nine@196-215-121-221.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 23:32:36 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 23:33:19 rotty_ [~rotty@78.47.92.94] has joined #lisp 23:33:23 -!- rotty_ [~rotty@78.47.92.94] has quit [Client Quit] 23:34:18 Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-96-255-72-75.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:34:58 -!- Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-96-255-72-75.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:37:56 Slivka [~Slivka@81.4.242.0] has joined #lisp 23:40:50 ASau` [~user@46.115.66.67] has joined #lisp 23:41:36 Jubb [~Jubb@pool-108-28-62-61.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:42:01 -!- ehu [~ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [] 23:44:14 -!- ASau [~user@46.115.45.64] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:46:18 -!- hiato [~nine@196-215-121-221.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:47:45 hiato [~nine@196-215-121-221.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 23:48:27 -!- Keshi [~Keshi@unaffiliated/keshi] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 23:49:18 -!- ngz [~user@98.255.185.81.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:49:41 -!- sabalaba [~Adium@c-76-21-4-232.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:51:55 Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-96-255-72-75.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:53:06 -!- ASau` [~user@46.115.66.67] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:53:44 -!- worstadmin [~worst@174.141.213.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:53:52 -!- Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-96-255-72-75.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]