00:00:15 -!- pakchoi2 [~pakchoi2@202.107.197.178] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:00:43 pakchoi2 [~pakchoi2@202.107.197.178] has joined #lisp 00:03:05 -!- [SLB] is now known as [SLB]` 00:05:25 k0001 [~k0001@host25.190-226-195.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 00:08:35 -!- k0001_ [~k0001@host32.190-229-162.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:12:15 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:12:57 -!- phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:13:32 -!- dnolen [~user@pool-71-183-180-232.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:17:51 Okay, I just coded up something I'm actually quite pleased with. 00:17:54 sw2wolf [~czsq888@171.216.153.241] has joined #lisp 00:19:58 -!- ferada [~ferada@dslb-178-012-235-008.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:19:59 Here's the code: https://bitbucket.org/tarballs_are_good/lisp-random/src/769edf50fdca03e5c9835d57114b86bd566339d9/dynamic-collector.lisp?at=default 00:20:44 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 00:21:37 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:22:56 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:25:08 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 00:26:13 Slivka [~Slivka@81.4.242.0] has joined #lisp 00:27:26 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 00:28:11 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:33:40 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@84-72-21-32.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:34:26 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 00:37:20 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-84-44-210-220.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:39:18 -!- LiamH [~none@96.231.218.61] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:41:11 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-84-44-210-220.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 00:42:57 -!- zolk3ri [~zolk3ri@unaffiliated/zolk3ri] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 00:45:39 -!- bdmst [~bdmst@198.27.77.11] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:45:44 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:46:31 bdmst [~bdmst@198.27.77.11] has joined #lisp 00:51:25 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-71-163-43-88.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 00:52:43 -!- puchacz [~puchacz@46-65-36-47.zone16.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:54:22 knob [~knob@173.215.211.79] has joined #lisp 00:54:25 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@50.1.48.160] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 00:55:10 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@50.1.48.160] has joined #lisp 01:00:02 -!- CampinSam [~user@24-176-103-21.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:00:46 CampinSam [~user@24-176-103-21.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has joined #lisp 01:06:29 -!- brandonz [~brandon@c-24-6-4-232.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 01:13:07 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:14:02 -!- pakchoi2 [~pakchoi2@202.107.197.178] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:15:37 pakchoi2 [~pakchoi2@202.107.197.178] has joined #lisp 01:22:32 googol [~matthew@lal-99-123.ResHall.Berkeley.EDU] has joined #lisp 01:23:44 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-108-52-166-246.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:24:23 -!- pakchoi2 [~pakchoi2@202.107.197.178] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 01:31:12 LiamH [~none@96.231.218.61] has joined #lisp 01:34:54 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-108-52-166-246.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:35:06 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 01:35:09 -!- Slivka [~Slivka@81.4.242.0] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:36:23 xjiujiu [~quassel@218.77.14.202] has joined #lisp 01:42:53 sarcasmus [~univyrse@24-179-43-39.dhcp.leds.al.charter.com] has joined #lisp 01:43:01 and hello 01:43:15 do you guys know of any actively developed 2d graphics libs? 01:43:40 . o O (I want to say McCLIM to this guy.) 01:44:24 paddymahoney1 [~paddymaho@198-84-186-52.cpe.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 01:44:40 -!- paddymahoney1 is now known as paddymahoney 01:45:10 sarcasmus: what kind of graphics? like generating pictures, or displaying pictures 01:45:52 i'd like both if I can get it 01:46:06 but I'm interested in making a simple game with lisp 01:46:22 have you tried SDL? 01:46:36 im looking for something actively developed 01:46:57 but if it works, why does it matter? 01:47:53 SDL is stable 01:48:06 The only truly actively developed cross-platform graphics library I personally know of is closed-source, pay-money CAPI. 01:48:23 sarcasmus: there's #lispgames, and there's lispgames.org. have you checked them? 01:48:52 but i've written stuff using lispbuilder-sdl before, though i tried to compile it on OS X today and it didn't work. Worked on Win 7 and Linux though 01:49:38 sarcasmus: SDL seems to be a sane thing to start with. but it really depends. you can also use the web as a deployment platform for your games, though it probably won't all be common lisp in that case. 01:50:17 -!- ubii [~ubii@unaffiliated/ubii] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:50:19 -!- k0001 [~k0001@host25.190-226-195.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:50:43 ubii [~ubii@184.21.196.19] has joined #lisp 01:50:43 -!- ubii [~ubii@184.21.196.19] has quit [Changing host] 01:50:43 ubii [~ubii@unaffiliated/ubii] has joined #lisp 01:52:12 k0001 [~k0001@host247.186-125-97.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 01:52:19 -!- sarcasmus [~univyrse@24-179-43-39.dhcp.leds.al.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:56:10 -!- ldionmarcil [~user@unaffiliated/maden] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:56:17 pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has joined #lisp 01:58:46 How can I periodically call some code portably in cl? 01:58:52 without blocking 01:59:36 what do you mean? 02:00:30 well I want to call a callback every n seconds 02:00:43 -!- k0001 [~k0001@host247.186-125-97.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:00:47 ldionmarcil [~user@dsl-216-221-52-122.mtl.contact.net] has joined #lisp 02:00:47 -!- ldionmarcil [~user@dsl-216-221-52-122.mtl.contact.net] has quit [Changing host] 02:00:47 ldionmarcil [~user@unaffiliated/maden] has joined #lisp 02:01:07 I was trying with cl-async and cl-async:wait 02:01:25 there's some timer libraries out there. 02:01:48 trivial-timers, for example 02:03:07 -!- paddymahoney [~paddymaho@198-84-186-52.cpe.teksavvy.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:03:17 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Quit: o7] 02:05:30 is there a channel for common lisp specifically? 02:05:39 this one 02:05:46 oh great 02:05:59 how does one compile lisp to machine language? 02:06:12 compile, compile-file, eval in several implementations 02:06:47 -!- Fare [~fare@173-9-65-97-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:07:11 Though if your question is really, "How do I create a standalone executable" there are various answers for various values of "standalone". 02:07:24 yeah, this is what I am looking for. 02:07:52 I don't have anything right now I want to "create a standalone executable" of, I am just curious 02:08:15 ldionmarcil: http://www.cliki.net/creating%20executables 02:08:28 thanks sepi 02:08:36 np 02:09:07 -!- phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:09:38 leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.66] has joined #lisp 02:10:15 we got dangeously close to another delivery/executable discussion! 02:10:41 such topics are frowned upon? 02:11:41 old timers here are just tired of the discussion about it that occurs every N days (N sufficiently small) 02:11:51 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.66] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:11:53 oh 02:11:59 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 02:12:37 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:13:26 -!- phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 02:14:53 ldionmarcil: look at ecl for smaller executables. It's doable to get small sizes but it's mostly not necessary 02:15:53 also, ECL doesn't tend to be all that fast, and many libraries aren't tested for it. it has it's place, but it's not the easiest thing to support. 02:17:25 k0001 [~k0001@host247.186-125-97.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 02:17:34 blckfx [~user@78.162.223.122] has joined #lisp 02:20:57 \LIST 02:21:38 -!- b1rkh0ff [~b1rkh0ff@178.77.4.124] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 02:22:06 -!- blckfx [~user@78.162.223.122] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:24:40 mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-71-163-43-88.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:26:51 resistfascism [~john@99-181-22-139.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:27:09 -!- resistfascism [~john@99-181-22-139.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:29:45 -!- Joreji [~thomas@u-0-012.vpn.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:29:53 -!- qNemo [~qN@89.207.216.208] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:31:26 -!- googol [~matthew@lal-99-123.ResHall.Berkeley.EDU] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 02:34:53 -!- p_nathan [~Adium@98.145.116.195] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:39:26 p_nathan [~Adium@98.145.116.195] has joined #lisp 02:41:42 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@50.1.48.160] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 02:41:47 -!- youlysses [~user@75-132-7-80.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:45:30 tntc [~tntc@c-98-217-26-29.hsd1.ct.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:46:50 Is there any documentation that explains the efficiency of reverse vs nreverse? My impression was that both were linear time, but nreverse does in-place reversal, and reverse returns a new list. Is this correct? 02:47:15 nreverse /can/ do an in-place reversal, it doesn't have to 02:47:35 enyno [~user@c-76-17-216-101.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:47:44 but usually nreverse won't cons 02:48:33 hello there, trying to quickload cl-cairo2 on my mac which i've installed the cairo lib using brew but cffi can't find it: ; Evaluation aborted on #. 02:48:35 what determines whether or not it does? 02:48:50 though both could be done in linear time, nreverse could be a lot faster 02:49:01 tntc: it is implementation defined 02:49:07 i need help figuring out how to point cffi in the right direction... cairo is in my path (at least, i'm pretty sure it is) 02:49:15 tntc: sane implementations will probably do it in-place 02:51:25 well, perhaps I should ask the more pertanent question in my situation: Which is likely faster: reversing the list ahead of time before passing it to a function and accessing elements via (first) and (rest) or leaving it in normal direction and accessing it via (first (last)) and (butlast)? 02:51:48 the first thing 02:51:52 my impression was that each call to (last) had to traverse the list, but I could be wrong. 02:52:07 tntc: you could be wrong, but in practice, you aren't 02:52:59 madnificent: well, if it was implimented as a doubly-linked list, I'd be wrong. But aren't cons cells in common lisp more akin to singly-linked lists? 02:53:21 usually 02:53:35 nothing in the standard explicitly says so, I don't think, but it's the common sense interpretation 02:53:45 Ok! That clears up quite a bit. Thanks Bike and madnificent. 02:53:50 . o O ( CDR-coding! ) 02:54:26 tntc: A case where it could be O(1) time (LAST) is if the compiler knew that all of the cons cells were allocated in a contiguous segment of memory, so it could just provide an offset 02:55:14 actually, to be correct, that would O(1) Nth or ELT. LAST requires knowledge of length in that case 02:55:24 Quadrescence: is that at all likely to actually happen? 02:55:31 no 02:55:34 it was in the bad old days 02:55:58 s/bad/more civilized/ 02:56:43 lisp is rapidly growing on me. I'm taking an AI class and we have some basic stuff we need to get down in lisp. I really don't even have to write the function that does all this reversing and list access (just describe in rough terms what it does), but I have written it, and now I want to make it efficient. 02:57:01 tntc: you using SLIME perchance? 02:57:15 naw, CCL comes with Hemlock or something I think. 02:57:26 I avoid EMACS like the plague though. 02:57:42 well, if it has a jump-to-definition, seeing your implementation's reverse and nreverse might be enlightening 02:57:48 Emacs, rather. 02:57:58 Implementing NREVERSE is a good exercise. 02:58:08 I always have to take a few minutes to remember how. 02:58:30 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@70.114.215.220] has quit [] 02:59:12 Bike: wow. Actually, CCL has a thing where I can just right-click and go to the definition. 02:59:21 there you go then 02:59:32 I would not have thought of that. Thanks! 02:59:40 (here's my NREVERSE, called NREV: https://bitbucket.org/tarballs_are_good/lisp-random/src/769edf50fdca03e5c9835d57114b86bd566339d9/miscellaneous_exercises/nreverse.lisp?at=default ) 02:59:45 don't look if you haven't implemented! 03:00:01 hopefully CCL isn't like SBCL, putting the implementation into macros that no longer exist 03:00:47 tntc: it isn't obligatory, but slime is a really nice ide for doing lisp. i haven't encountered anything of the likes. keep it in the back of your head, in case you decide to change your mind about emacs from "sent by the devil!" to "just evil" :) 03:00:51 no no, I can actually read it. they split out into list-reverse and vector-reverse 03:01:10 -!- quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:01:12 isn't hemlock based on emacs anyway, or am i thinking of another one? 03:01:32 i believe it is 03:02:00 Bike: It is, but with CCL, it has nice OS X shortcut keys, so I don't have to switch gears between "I'm using emacs" and "I'm using everything else on my system" 03:02:06 Bike: i thought it was supposed to be the common lisp emacs thing. but i doubt it can gain much traction if it doesn't support all the libraries emacs supports (meaning, it has to be emacs itself, i guess) 03:02:16 tntc: sensible. 03:02:26 tntc: is that only for copy-paste, or also for other things? 03:02:54 *Quadrescence* remembers trying to use Jabberwocky when he went against using emacs. 03:03:10 madnificent: undo/redo, searches, stuff like that 03:03:32 tntc: ok 03:03:36 twas brillig and the slithy toves 03:04:30 it has command-E and command-shift-E for execute selection and execute all, respectively. it also has bits for restarts and continue and stuff, all using the command key, rather than ctrl. 03:04:41 I imagine the shortcuts are different in other OSs, but there you go. 03:07:13 This whole thing is for implementing binary vector distance with a list like '(0 1 0 1) '(1 0 1 0 1 0). Obviously, the shorter list is missing leading 0s, so my approach is to reverse the lists, compare the first n values (where n is the length of the shorter list), and then I just run (apply '+ longer-vector), and get the sum of the 1s. 03:07:58 my other option would be, I think, to add the missing leading 0s to equalize the lists, but I think that would be less efficient than the reverse jobbie, at least space-wise. 03:08:08 -!- cnl [~pony@bitdiddle.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 03:08:09 quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 03:09:24 or I could just slurp the first few elements off the longer list till they're the same length. 03:09:32 so many approaches! 03:10:09 -!- p_nathan [~Adium@98.145.116.195] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:10:20 tntc: Finding the length of both lists is O(max(M,N)), adding the correct number of zeros takes O(N-M) space and time, and adding them producing a new list is O(max(M,N)) 03:11:06 The reversal scheme is probably algorithmically nicer, but the "prepend leading zeros" is still linear in space and time, without a lot of overhead. 03:11:50 (i mean O(|N-M|)) 03:11:55 Quadrescence: if the difference in length is large, wouldn't the reversal consume less space? 03:11:59 p_nathan [~Adium@98.145.116.195] has joined #lisp 03:12:43 you still will probably create a new list to represent the sum, so probably negligibly 03:13:02 normanrichards [~normanric@166.137.123.200] has joined #lisp 03:13:34 actually, I don't know what you're doing. How are you using the two lists? 03:14:21 cfy [~ilisp@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 03:14:25 Quadrescence: in this case, the result is a single number. Basically, it's how many digits there are different. So, like (distance '(0 1 0 1) '(1 0 1 0) would have a distance of 4 03:14:33 er, missing a paren there. 03:14:43 oh okay, i misinterpreted then 03:14:53 but yeah, while (distance '(0 1 0 1) '(0 1)) would be 1. 03:16:11 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@217.17.38.43] has quit [Quit: leaving] 03:16:28 it's almost like doing an xnor on all the bits, and then summing the total 1s in the result. 03:16:44 it's exactly like that, except you don't know the lengths :( 03:16:50 right! 03:16:59 Thus the almost :) 03:17:34 There is a way to do it using no memory 03:17:51 oh? 03:18:11 if you worry about performance, using bit vectors to represent vectors of bits would be a good start. 03:18:46 -!- sw2wolf [~czsq888@171.216.153.241] has left #lisp 03:19:13 pkhuong: Agreed. Alas, I think she would object to that in this case, since she gives the vectors as a list. Of course, I'm already way beyond the assignment anyhow. 03:19:33 She asked for handling lists of the same length, and thinking about what we'd have to do for ones of differing lengths. 03:20:04 tntc: This is a start, without using any fancy CL features, using linear stack space: http://paste.lisp.org/display/135624 03:20:40 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-71-163-43-88.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 03:21:34 Quadrescence: this is what I have right now: http://paste.lisp.org/display/135625 03:22:16 distance-2 is the function for handling differing lengths 03:22:43 I also futzed with using + and mod instead of =, since I figure the conditional is probably slower than the math functions, but again I'm guessing there. 03:23:09 leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.66] has joined #lisp 03:23:18 the comments are just my notes while I'm writing this stuff 03:24:01 wow. now I feel ashamed of my grammar errors :p 03:24:38 tntc, and here's one that uses constant space and linear time: http://paste.lisp.org/display/135624#1 03:26:10 Quadrescence: is the standard to use car and cdr or first and rest? 03:26:35 I'm reading Land of Lisp right now, and it uses car and cdr, but the class seems hell-bent on first and rest. 03:26:48 first and rest make sense on lists, car and cdr make sense on conses 03:27:00 That's what I do but it doens't really matter. 03:27:15 they do the same things, of course 03:28:36 Bike, if C[AD]R are for conses, then what's up with (car nil) ==> nil and (consp nil) ==> nil ? 03:29:06 Quadrescence: because it's convenient (: 03:29:07 Quadrescence: why use reduce instead of apply? Also, what's :initial-value? 03:29:42 k0001_ [~k0001@host216.190-137-203.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 03:29:58 tntc: short answer: reduce "scales" better, because it keeps doing + with two arguments, where as apply does + with however long the length is 03:30:18 :initial-value is the value to start adding with. 03:32:01 my rule with apply: if it doesn't make sense to write apply f ... with (f ...), then don't use it :) 03:32:12 setmeaway [stemearay@118.45.149.65] has joined #lisp 03:32:37 if you have a list (1 2 ... 1000), would you write in your program, manually, (+ 1 2 3 ... 1000) ? 03:32:54 or, in C, would you write plus(1, 2, ..., 1000) ? 03:33:05 -!- k0001 [~k0001@host247.186-125-97.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 03:33:28 edgar-rft [~GOD@HSI-KBW-149-172-63-75.hsi13.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 03:35:27 oh, so you're saying it grabs pairs of elements over and over, rather than trying to mush one big list together? 03:35:32 yes 03:35:37 ok. that makes sense. 03:35:43 -!- LiamH [~none@96.231.218.61] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:36:13 a magically good implementation might even figure that adddition is associative and so it can parallelize 03:36:47 hey, is that # just a decorator? 03:36:56 nope 03:36:59 tntc: #'x = (function x) 03:37:11 (function x) = "the function whose name is X" 03:38:10 why did (apply '+ some-list) work? 03:38:40 because that's roughly shorthand for (apply (symbol-function '+) some-list) 03:38:41 because lisp lets you use the symbol "+" to refer to the function named +. you could use '+ in reduce too 03:38:57 the different is that it'll look up what + refers to at runtime 03:39:01 difference* 03:41:36 -!- bananagram [~bot@c-98-198-236-112.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 03:41:45 neat! 03:42:42 thank you all again for all your help. all in all, lisp is pretty cool :) 03:47:16 ahungry [~null@99-40-10-216.lightspeed.livnmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:48:56 yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.169] has joined #lisp 03:49:32 ebobby [~fms@173.228.63.34] has joined #lisp 03:52:52 -!- joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@086.112-30-64.ftth.swbr.surewest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:52:59 -!- enyno [~user@c-76-17-216-101.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:55:03 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@50.1.48.160] has joined #lisp 03:59:27 I had a zen experience with lisp today. 04:04:04 did you figure out how to leak memory? 04:04:13 hahaha. 04:05:15 haha 04:05:32 not so zen. 04:07:09 heh 04:07:13 ebobby: do tell 04:08:46 -!- wheelsucker [~user@ip68-8-180-107.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:09:50 I started with the simple problem of analyzing the relations between some data inside a tsv file, so I wrote a simple parser that loaded the data into an array 04:10:14 then I figured "what i need is tables and rows" and wrapped the arrays inside some functions 04:10:25 googol [~matthew@lal-99-123.ResHall.Berkeley.EDU] has joined #lisp 04:10:26 and then ended up with some query like functions 04:10:49 and I am tempted to write a macro to implement some sort of linq-like syntax to query these things... 04:11:29 what i find out interesting is how the "interactive" environment of emacs+slime allows you to... grow stuff up 04:11:38 "mmm what if I add a function to do this" 04:11:41 as you play in the repl 04:11:43 fun times. 04:13:10 -!- ldionmarcil [~user@unaffiliated/maden] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:13:21 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-108-52-166-246.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:16:28 holycow [~holycow@host-216-251-135-194.bchsia.skywaywest.net] has joined #lisp 04:16:32 hi guys 04:16:46 i am doing some tutorials using paredit to help keep track of the parens 04:17:33 when i am typing in a form, is there a keystroke that would automatically end the form, carriage return to the next appropriate indent in the parent form/ 04:17:36 ? 04:18:00 ThePhoeron: http://cl.ly/image/0c1m3K0y1Q0A 04:18:02 >_> 04:18:10 i haven't been able to google the answer to this. right now i use the arrow key to move outside the end of the current form and hit enter 04:19:14 cdidd [~cdidd@95-27-235-195.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 04:22:34 ebobby: nice. yeah, it's easy to get spoiled by emacs+slime 04:22:42 LiamH [~none@96.231.218.61] has joined #lisp 04:22:43 browndawg [~browndawg@117.201.92.128] has joined #lisp 04:23:55 holycow: closing paren? 04:25:40 closing paren is my savior 04:25:49 best navigation keuy 04:25:50 -u 04:26:43 i think that is what i would describe it. the paren is already closed while i am typing, i would like to 'close' it i guess and move on to the next indent / space as apropriate i guess? 04:26:53 googling closeing paren 04:28:59 holycow: like I said, closing paren, ")". 04:29:23 oh!!! 04:29:30 darn it, so simple. thank you! 04:32:14 i see, and multiple ) allow you to determine nesting. really great. 04:37:20 bananagram [~bot@c-98-198-236-112.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:39:04 -!- browndawg [~browndawg@117.201.92.128] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:40:22 Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-96-255-72-75.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:41:24 -!- cfy [~ilisp@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:42:37 sw2wolf [~czsq888@171.216.153.241] has joined #lisp 04:44:37 -!- ebobby [~fms@173.228.63.34] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:45:07 M-) is handy too 04:50:33 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:51:37 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@166.137.123.200] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:51:45 ah found a paredit cheat sheet 04:52:58 madnificent: oh, that is useful indeed. nice. 04:54:38 -!- karswell [~user@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 04:55:42 -!- expt [~travis@ip-64-32-153-82.dsl.lax.megapath.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:58:36 added paredit cheatsheet page to cliki 04:59:31 Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 05:03:32 normanrichards [~normanric@70.114.215.220] has joined #lisp 05:03:39 thanks for the help. good night. 05:03:41 -!- holycow [~holycow@host-216-251-135-194.bchsia.skywaywest.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 05:08:45 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 05:09:28 k0001 [~k0001@host146.190-229-166.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 05:13:11 Dalek_Baldwin [~Adium@71-84-34-33.dhcp.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has joined #lisp 05:13:15 -!- k0001_ [~k0001@host216.190-137-203.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:15:34 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.214] has joined #lisp 05:20:30 -!- bananagram [~bot@c-98-198-236-112.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 05:24:17 -!- leoncamel [~leoncamel@1.202.63.179] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:26:30 -!- pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:38:29 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#lisp 07:28:00 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 07:29:44 Euthy [~euthy@unaffiliated/euthydemus] has joined #lisp 07:31:30 With fiveam, is there some way to make a suite only be run if something is in *features*? Or should I just use read conditionals. 07:37:29 -!- Dalek_Baldwin [~Adium@71-84-34-33.dhcp.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:38:28 -!- rmathews [~roshan@122.164.39.149] has quit [Quit: ...] 07:40:02 -!- pakchoi2 [~pakchoi2@202.107.197.178] has quit [Quit: ] 07:47:51 pakchoi2 [~pakchoi2@202.107.197.178] has joined #lisp 07:48:26 -!- nostoi [~nostoi@183.Red-80-39-204.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Seite geschlossen] 07:49:20 zaquest [~zaquest@l49-13-180.cn.ru] has joined #lisp 07:53:12 -!- pakchoi2 [~pakchoi2@202.107.197.178] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:53:46 pakchoi2 [~pakchoi2@202.107.197.178] has joined #lisp 07:54:02 -!- zaquest [~zaquest@l49-13-180.cn.ru] has quit [Quit: zaquest] 07:55:06 -!- pakchoi2 [~pakchoi2@202.107.197.178] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 07:57:58 -!- edgar-rft [~GOD@HSI-KBW-149-172-63-75.hsi13.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Quit: mental blackout] 07:59:36 -!- dioxirane [~OXO@unaffiliated/dioxirane] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:05:53 is it customary to call "internal" functions with a prefix of %? 08:06:04 No. % is for magic. 08:06:24 A comedian. 08:06:26 There's an export mechanism for internals. 08:06:58 ebobby: It's unwise to judge from a position of profound ignorance. 08:07:02 pakchoi2 [~pakchoi2@202.107.197.178] has joined #lisp 08:07:51 who's judging who? 08:08:07 I asked a simple question, if you feel its too unworthy for you to help, just don't do it. 08:08:13 *|3b|* didn't think any comedy was intended 08:08:16 I answered it. 08:08:28 You were just to profoundly ignorant to accept it. 08:08:32 too, even. 08:08:43 *|3b|* would have described it as 'low-level' or 'dangerous' rather than 'magic', but either works 08:08:55 Well, I guess you misjudged my level of ignorance because your "is for magic." was not helpful at all. 08:08:55 Traditionally % is for magic, and %% is for more magic. 08:09:15 magic ::= mysterious code 08:09:49 thanks p_nathan and |3b| you made it way clearer. 08:10:18 customarily the package system handles internal functions so usually I don't see special 'internal' naming conventions 08:11:33 I think I read it somewhere about it being used for internal functions. But in the end is just... to show intention I guess. 08:11:56 The package system allows you to "export" but it really doesn't stop you from calling something you are not intended to, right? 08:12:12 so I guess a % prefixing the function name won't do it either. 08:12:21 thanks p_nathan 08:13:28 -!- pakchoi2 [~pakchoi2@202.107.197.178] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 08:13:54 or maybe i am too profoundly ignorant to realize there's a way. 08:14:46 you'd need some kind of whitelist for what can call a function 08:14:51 guess you can do that with lexical binding 08:15:37 You can probably generate a closure in your package and only have the functions you want called defined as defun. But that sounds  icky. 08:16:12 that sounds javascripty 08:16:36 Isn't this why you explicitly export symbols? 08:16:40 -!- BeLucid [~belucid@cpe-066-057-034-009.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:16:41 Does it? I don't usually do JS. :) 08:17:02 cYmen [~cymen@squint.a-oben.org] has joined #lisp 08:17:18 paddymahoney1 [~paddymaho@198-84-186-52.cpe.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 08:17:18 -!- paddymahoney1 is now known as paddymahoney 08:17:53 dioxirane [~OXO@unaffiliated/dioxirane] has joined #lisp 08:23:35 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.66] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.2.93.1] 08:29:51 pakchoi2 [~pakchoi2@202.107.197.178] has joined #lisp 08:30:07 Why do you need anything other than basic literacy? 08:30:22 If you call an unexported function you should realize that you do so at your own risk. 08:30:36 And when your code breaks, you shouldn't cry about it. 08:30:38 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 08:31:14 prxq [~mommer@mnhm-5f75fa43.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 08:31:40 tcr1 [~tcr@84-72-21-32.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 08:31:41 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 08:34:39 -!- Thra11 [~thrall@46.208.89.201] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:35:38 -!- Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:35:45 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-20-52.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 08:39:41 antifuchs: sorry, but is possible cloning idna by means of git from github, "git clone https://github.com/antifucks/idna.git" ask me for Username and Password :( 08:41:33 Slivka [~Slivka@81.4.242.0] has joined #lisp 08:42:57 -!- cfy [~ilisp@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 08:44:08 that's probably because it is antifuchs and not antifucks 08:44:54 Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 08:45:50 I forgot. Is there a portable way to install a signal handler at the very top level? Basically what I want to do is have a default restart get invoked if a particular condition is not handled. 08:46:39 antifuchs: I'm sorry 08:47:06 Adeon: thanks a lot 08:48:29 Quadrescence: i don't think there is, but there's such a thing in sb-ext 08:48:52 -!- paddymahoney [~paddymaho@198-84-186-52.cpe.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: Sleep...] 08:51:11 -!- sw2wolf [~czsq888@171.216.153.241] has left #lisp 08:51:16 Bike: Do you mean *INVOKE-DEBUGGER-HOOK*? That's the closest thing I can find. 08:51:59 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 08:54:01 uh... that wasn't it, and now I can't find what I was thinking of. 08:54:22 -!- pakchoi2 [~pakchoi2@202.107.197.178] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 08:54:44 leoncamel [~leoncamel@1.202.63.179] has joined #lisp 08:55:10 Bike, I hope you're misremembering and there is a portable way. 08:55:36 haoo [~user@116.24.103.132] has joined #lisp 08:55:40 Quadrescence: you want a permanent handler-bind, right? 08:55:51 yes 08:55:53 #1# 08:55:54 Quadrescence: are you able to just have a top-level DEFUN? 08:56:08 p_nathan, no, because this is library code 08:56:17 ah 08:56:28 at this point I'm probably abusing the condition system 08:57:30 Quadrescence: maybe instead of a global handler, you could write a signaling function that takes some action if signal returns? 08:57:39 -!- waveman [~tim@101.174.161.170] has quit [Quit: leaving] 08:57:56 Bike: What do you mean? 08:58:24 well, like ERROR essentially does SIGNAL and then if there are no handlers it calls INVOKE-DEBUGGER 08:58:36 Correct. 08:58:54 so you could have (defun quadcondition (...) (or (signal ...) (default-action...))) 08:59:30 if a signal isn't handled, do we return back to the signal, or do we just return NIL at the toplevel? 08:59:37 If we return back, then I'm A-OK 08:59:42 signal returns back 08:59:46 great!! 08:59:54 e.g. (signal "test") => NIL 09:00:14 or rather (progn (print "before") (signal "test") (print "after")) I guess 09:00:14 -!- dioxirane [~OXO@unaffiliated/dioxirane] has left #lisp 09:00:36 ferada [~ferada@dslb-178-012-235-008.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 09:00:36 yes right 09:00:37 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f75473b.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 09:00:48 this is what I suspected (and was hoping) but I wasn't sure 09:01:38 oh man, this is a work of art this code 09:06:14 which code? 09:08:32 My dynamic-collect library. See https://bitbucket.org/tarballs_are_good/dynamic-collect 09:08:35 For code: https://bitbucket.org/tarballs_are_good/dynamic-collect/src/c85b5b67541883aff1025c09871046ba1c2a039a/dynamic-collect.lisp?at=default 09:08:55 Right now I'm in the process of making it robust against itself. 09:09:36 leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.66] has joined #lisp 09:10:19 -!- agumonkey [~agu@78.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 09:10:24 -!- youlysses [~user@75-132-7-80.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:11:04 ManaLord [~master@c-f696e455.37-0081-74657210.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 09:12:53 jack_rabbit [~kyle@c-98-253-60-75.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:14:15 Now I am thinking about how I might catch a condition in a HANDLER-BIND, but if some condition isn't met, I can "reject" it and let it keep bubbling up. 09:15:53 just have the handler return 09:15:57 that constitutes not handling it 09:16:10 rmathews [~roshan@122.164.39.149] has joined #lisp 09:16:26 (block nil (handler-bind ((error (lambda (e) (return e)))) (handler-bind ((error #'print)) (error "foo")))) 09:17:05 innermost handler happens and the condition is printed, but since it returns normally error looks next at the outer handler, which handles it by jumping out 09:18:47 -!- beaumonta is now known as abeaumont 09:19:59 hmm 09:22:51 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:24:07 pakchoi2 [~pakchoi2@202.107.197.178] has joined #lisp 09:25:32 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 09:25:43 -!- pakchoi2 [~pakchoi2@202.107.197.178] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 09:26:29 pakchoi2 [~pakchoi2@202.107.197.178] has joined #lisp 09:26:54 -!- cornihilio [~cornihili@c-71-56-205-11.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 09:28:24 asakawa [~user@101.5.147.68] has joined #lisp 09:28:41 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@70.114.215.220] has quit [] 09:29:22 -!- asakawa [~user@101.5.147.68] has left #lisp 09:30:59 agumonkey [~agu@61.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 09:32:13 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@92.46.3.192] has joined #lisp 09:32:13 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@92.46.3.192] has quit [Changing host] 09:32:13 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 09:32:14 -!- Bike [~Glossina@63-229-134-7.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 09:33:14 dioxirane [~OXO@unaffiliated/dioxirane] has joined #lisp 09:36:44 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:37:08 Anyone knows why Hunchentoot supports only libcrypto.so.21.0 or 20.1 or 19.0 or 18.0 and not a library with amjor numper equal to 22, to say . Thanks! 09:37:22 *major number 09:38:23 yawnt [~yawnt@unaffiliated/yawno] has joined #lisp 09:38:48 I've a trotrouble when I try to compile Hunchentoot from sources because it's unable to load any of the alternatives 09:39:15 dioxirane: maybe it is enough to add your version to the alternative list. 09:39:16 waveman [~tim@101.174.161.170] has joined #lisp 09:39:39 -!- rmathews [~roshan@122.164.39.149] has quit [Quit: ...] 09:39:41 -!- haoo [~user@116.24.103.132] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:39:57 but , what version of OpenSSL is supported by Hunchentoot? 09:40:50 -!- ebobby [~fms@173.228.63.34] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:42:30 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@92.46.3.192] has joined #lisp 09:42:31 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@92.46.3.192] has quit [Changing host] 09:42:31 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 09:43:02 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.241.92] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:43:05 dioxirane: No idea - I was just suggesting to attempt to hack it up. 09:43:28 -!- [SLB]` is now known as [SLB] 09:44:17 -!- pakchoi2 [~pakchoi2@202.107.197.178] has quit [Quit: ] 09:46:08 browndawg [~browndawg@117.214.170.126] has joined #lisp 09:46:29 prxq: at the moment I do not know how this would be possible. maybe I have to search a solution.. 09:48:43 -!- yawnt [~yawnt@unaffiliated/yawno] has quit [Quit: leaving] 09:48:43 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:48:49 attila_lendvai1 [~attila_le@92.46.3.192] has joined #lisp 09:48:49 -!- attila_lendvai1 is now known as attila_lendvai 09:48:49 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@92.46.3.192] has quit [Changing host] 09:48:50 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 09:48:54 -!- p_nathan [~Adium@98.145.116.195] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:49:04 maybe there is some information in the cl+ssl manual if there is any 09:50:42 yawnt [~yawnt@unaffiliated/yawno] has joined #lisp 09:56:50 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:57:26 sabalaba [~Adium@c-24-5-86-251.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:57:30 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has quit [Quit: Close the world, Open the nExt] 09:57:48 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:57:51 attila_lendvai1 [~attila_le@92.46.3.192] has joined #lisp 09:57:51 -!- attila_lendvai1 is now known as attila_lendvai 09:57:51 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@92.46.3.192] has quit [Changing host] 09:57:51 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 09:59:38 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.241.92] has joined #lisp 10:01:44 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 10:02:23 killerboy [~mateusz@217.17.38.43] has joined #lisp 10:02:46 Indecipherable [~Indeciphe@41.13.52.43] has joined #lisp 10:04:03 [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has joined #lisp 10:06:29 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 10:09:15 -!- browndawg [~browndawg@117.214.170.126] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:10:22 spacebat [spacebat@50-56-189-236.static.cloud-ips.com] has joined #lisp 10:13:31 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 10:13:35 attila_lendvai1 [~attila_le@92.46.3.192] has joined #lisp 10:13:35 -!- attila_lendvai1 is now known as attila_lendvai 10:13:35 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@92.46.3.192] has quit [Changing host] 10:13:35 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 10:13:51 -!- dioxirane [~OXO@unaffiliated/dioxirane] has quit [Quit: leaving] 10:15:02 b1rkh0ff [~b1rkh0ff@178.77.20.192] has joined #lisp 10:16:02 Can anyone explain why this prints NIL and not the condition? http://paste.lisp.org/display/135631 10:18:22 Yet it does here when we do it manually: http://paste.lisp.org/display/135631#1 10:19:41 dioxirane [~OXO@unaffiliated/dioxirane] has joined #lisp 10:21:18 My guess has to do with (the lack of) COMPUTE-RESTARTS 10:22:02 browndawg [~browndawg@117.214.168.142] has joined #lisp 10:23:32 aha, okay, I got it I think. Sorry for the noise. 10:27:36 rmathews [~roshan@122.164.39.149] has joined #lisp 10:28:03 -!- dioxirane [~OXO@unaffiliated/dioxirane] has quit [Quit: leaving] 10:29:14 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.241.92] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:32:33 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:33:10 am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has joined #lisp 10:35:29 qptain_Nemo [~qN@89.207.216.208] has joined #lisp 10:37:54 zaquest [~zaquest@l49-13-180.cn.ru] has joined #lisp 10:38:40 -!- linse [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1177916872.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: zzzz] 10:38:47 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.241.92] has joined #lisp 10:42:48 -!- zaquest [~zaquest@l49-13-180.cn.ru] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.0] 10:45:01 zaquest [~zaquest@l49-13-180.cn.ru] has joined #lisp 10:47:43 dioxirane [~OXO@unaffiliated/dioxirane] has joined #lisp 10:48:54 prxq: now I'm trying to manually modify the file reload.lisp in cl-ssl cloned direcory. Thanks for the suggestion :) 10:49:13 *cl+ssl 10:49:20 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-20-52.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 10:50:44 -!- browndawg [~browndawg@117.214.168.142] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 10:52:33 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.241.92] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 10:52:53 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.241.92] has joined #lisp 10:53:12 *cl-plus-ssl directory.. 10:53:15 -!- xjiujiu [~quassel@218.77.14.202] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:53:27 -!- sabalaba [~Adium@c-24-5-86-251.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 10:54:05 xjiujiu [~quassel@218.77.14.202] has joined #lisp 10:55:29 -!- rmathews [~roshan@122.164.39.149] has quit [Quit: ...] 10:55:52 pakchoi2 [~pakchoi2@202.107.197.178] has joined #lisp 10:56:12 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@84-72-21-32.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 10:56:14 is there an equivalent of sb-ext:symbol-global-value on ccl? 10:57:24 -!- zaquest [~zaquest@l49-13-180.cn.ru] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:58:40 foreignFunction [~niksaak@94.27.88.248] has joined #lisp 11:02:24 kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-91-77.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 11:02:27 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-91-77.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Excess Flood] 11:05:25 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-160-177.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 11:05:36 dioxirane: did it work? 11:05:45 -!- Indecipherable [~Indeciphe@41.13.52.43] has quit [Quit: used jmIrc] 11:08:38 kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-101-131.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 11:10:06 prxq: if the elf dynamic linker want.. 11:11:10 francogrex [~user@109.134.212.250] has joined #lisp 11:11:38 If it is true, the pretty printer is used, and the Lisp printer will endeavor to insert extra whitespace[1] where appropriate to make expressions more readable ... 11:12:21 that's for *print-pretty*, how can one control the "extra whitespace[1] where appropriate" part? 11:14:23 browndawg [~browndawg@117.214.170.180] has joined #lisp 11:14:58 sz0 [~user@94.55.194.230] has joined #lisp 11:18:54 -!- browndawg [~browndawg@117.214.170.180] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:19:06 tntc: there's an old paper that studies in detail the performance of nreverse (in the context of n*push+nreverse compared to n*rplacd on the tail), but with modern processors with pipelines, multiple level of caches, and multi-cores, it should be done all over again! 11:19:35 tntc: of course, the time you do that, new processors architectures will be common, so it's useless. 11:19:55 prxq: yes, it work! 11:21:33 zolk3ri [~zolk3ri@unaffiliated/zolk3ri] has joined #lisp 11:23:05 minion: memo for lichteblau add libcrypto.so.22.0 to reload.lisp please. 11:23:06 reload.lisp: you speak nonsense 11:23:19 mmm ... :) 11:23:36 -!- dioxirane [~OXO@unaffiliated/dioxirane] has quit [Quit: leaving] 11:32:11 browndawg [~browndawg@117.201.94.198] has joined #lisp 11:35:10 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-20-52.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 11:42:16 hiato [~nine@196-215-121-221.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 11:45:10 -!- francogrex [~user@109.134.212.250] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:45:27 -!- xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.140.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:48:01 Quadrescence: (defun list-nreverse (list) (nreconc list nil)) 11:49:20 definitely not cheating 11:51:16 Quadrescence: tntc: have a look at call-arguments-limit 11:52:09 i am aware 11:52:11 Even in C, implementations can limit on the number of function argument, IIRC. 11:52:26 so, reduce | apply --> call-arguments-limit 11:52:28 that is the intuition i was driving at without actually saying it 11:57:57 -!- kubatyszko_ [~kubatyszk@pd8465f.tokynt01.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has quit [Quit: kubatyszko_] 12:01:15 Nohai [~No@125.253.98.148] has joined #lisp 12:01:48 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.66] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.2.93.1] 12:02:31 -!- googol [~matthew@lal-99-123.ResHall.Berkeley.EDU] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:05:45 -!- Nohai [~No@125.253.98.148] has quit [Changing host] 12:05:45 Nohai [~No@unaffiliated/keshi] has joined #lisp 12:06:05 -!- Nohai [~No@unaffiliated/keshi] has quit [Client Quit] 12:06:21 Keshi [~Keshi@125.253.98.148] has joined #lisp 12:06:45 -!- Keshi is now known as Guest62570 12:06:58 -!- Guest62570 [~Keshi@125.253.98.148] has quit [Changing host] 12:06:58 Guest62570 [~Keshi@unaffiliated/keshi] has joined #lisp 12:07:34 -!- Guest62570 [~Keshi@unaffiliated/keshi] has quit [Client Quit] 12:07:47 Keshi_ [~Keshi@unaffiliated/keshi] has joined #lisp 12:08:55 nialo [~nialo@ool-44c53f01.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 12:09:17 ebw [~user@g228014067.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 12:09:41 -!- Keshi_ is now known as Keshi 12:11:17 -!- pakchoi2 [~pakchoi2@202.107.197.178] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 12:12:52 Joreji [~thomas@u-0-014.vpn.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 12:13:48 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-17-141.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:13:50 xan_ [~xan@144.Red-2-136-159.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 12:16:40 AllInOne [~AllInOne@29.Red-2-140-65.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 12:17:33 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 12:21:02 -!- lando [~lando@c-66-176-196-78.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:24:42 dto [~user@pool-96-252-62-13.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 12:24:49 SSG [~siddayyag@122.172.43.246] has joined #lisp 12:26:19 edgar-rft [~GOD@HSI-KBW-149-172-63-75.hsi13.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 12:27:30 any non-blocking library apart from the unmaintained NIO? 12:32:36 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-20-52.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:36:38 -!- AllInOne is now known as rainbow 12:37:08 -!- rainbow is now known as Guest98577 12:39:16 -!- Guest98577 is now known as Utopia 12:40:07 -!- Utopia is now known as youtopia 12:42:40 rmathews [~roshan@122.164.33.178] has joined #lisp 12:43:33 normanrichards [~normanric@70.114.215.220] has joined #lisp 12:43:44 -!- ahoops [~ahoops__@121.96.14.223] has quit [Quit:   .] 12:44:15 ahoops [~ahoops__@121.96.14.223] has joined #lisp 12:46:03 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@2-230-138-74.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:51:00 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 12:54:04 -!- youtopia [~AllInOne@29.Red-2-140-65.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.9.2] 12:54:14 youtopia [~AllInOne@29.Red-2-140-65.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 12:54:42 How can I, with ASDF, specify to load CFFI, and then execute some form (I need to update paths), and then to load the next dependency? 12:55:19 s/update paths/tell CFFI where to find some libs/ 12:55:59 hello Quadrescence . 12:56:08 hello dto 12:56:11 i thought of your nick when listening to an album called Quaristice 12:56:22 how are you? 12:56:44 i am alright. tired, and should be in bed, but i'm alright :) 12:57:24 there are asdf after methods, but they are triggered god knows when 13:01:04 Quadrescence: you can load a system that will load cffi and set the paths. 13:01:09 btw gentlemen, i have a new lisp game editor video out, showing a bunch of improvements: http://blocky.io/editor-demo-2.avi 13:01:19 basically it's become a bit more emacs-like 13:01:35 and i've backed away from the idea of an MIT Scratch-like interface. 13:01:41 hello pjb` :) 13:01:51 hi 13:04:33 -!- yawnt is now known as yawnt`afk 13:06:03 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.241.92] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:08:28 -!- ski [~ski@c80-216-142-165.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:09:01 dioxirane [~OXO@unaffiliated/dioxirane] has joined #lisp 13:10:49 And another question, is there a trick to get faster printing with slime? I'm interested in just streaming output, but it seems that's not a good idea, in at least the default environment, with slime 13:11:16 (setf *use-dedicated-output-stream* t) 13:12:47 "This variable controls whether to use an unsafe efficiency hack for sending printed output from Lisp to Emacs. The default is nil, don't use it, and is strongly recommended to keep." :) 13:13:07 what a bunch of baloney! 13:13:53 vantage|home [~vantage@109.131.207.194] has joined #lisp 13:16:53 tcr1 [~tcr@84-72-21-32.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 13:18:45 stassats`: Sorry, I don't know a lot about SWANK. Can I just set this at the REPL and be happy, so I put it somewhere before initializing SLIME 13:19:11 put (defparameter *use-dedicated-output-stream* t) in ~/.swank.lisp 13:19:43 -!- shifty [~user@114-198-33-227.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:23:14 Okay, thanks. 13:26:25 stassats`, hah, this is crazy, stuff is printing, even though the repl is ready 13:27:01 emacs is slow 13:28:18 :) 13:29:51 I was stupidly trying to read audio data at a 44100 sample rate and expecting to see the values displayed with low latency 13:30:41 -!- SSG [~siddayyag@122.172.43.246] has quit [Quit: SSG] 13:31:17 Is there such a thing like non blocking io in the hyperspec? I couldn't find it. 13:31:37 Indecipherable [~Indeciphe@41.13.8.128] has joined #lisp 13:32:06 clhs r-c-n-h 13:32:06 read-char-no-hang: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_rd_c_1.htm 13:32:59 but really, no, there isn't 13:35:08 thanks 13:35:08 pakchoi2 [~pakchoi2@202.107.197.178] has joined #lisp 13:36:01 -!- pakchoi2 [~pakchoi2@202.107.197.178] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 13:36:17 I just wondered why cl+ssl is bothering with nonblocking io, but encapsulating this in a gray stream. So the implementation of read-sequence has to loop internally ... 13:36:44 pakchoi2 [~pakchoi2@202.107.197.178] has joined #lisp 13:36:50 -!- vantage|home [~vantage@109.131.207.194] has quit [Quit: Ik ga weg] 13:37:11 -!- ferada [~ferada@dslb-178-012-235-008.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 13:38:44 ebw` [~user@g228071107.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 13:38:58 -!- ebw [~user@g228014067.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Disconnected by services] 13:39:06 -!- ebw` is now known as ebw 13:39:15 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-160-177.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:40:35 Quadrescence: for high-volume text output i use trivial-sockets on the lisp side and netcat from a console. 13:41:23 eg: first "nc -k -l 6007" 13:41:47 Fare [~fare@173-9-65-97-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 13:41:56 and then in lispland (defparameter *foo-str* (trivial-sockets:open-stream "127.0.0.1" 6007)) 13:42:57 whatever you print to that stream goes to the console. Xterm is fast enough for most purposes :-) 13:44:44 -!- xan_ [~xan@144.Red-2-136-159.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 13:48:34 -!- Indecipherable [~Indeciphe@41.13.8.128] has quit [Quit: used jmIrc] 13:48:41 newblue [~newblue@119.121.251.122] has joined #lisp 13:50:15 prxq, hm, ill give that a try later 13:51:52 bubo [~bubo@91.224.149.58] has joined #lisp 13:52:12 -!- bubo is now known as Guest67262 13:52:33 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@84-72-21-32.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:53:50 -!- Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 13:54:45 -!- leoncamel [~leoncamel@1.202.63.179] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.9.2] 13:55:51 -!- Guest67262 [~bubo@91.224.149.58] has quit [Client Quit] 13:55:57 I'm now experimenting a read error during compile file: Symbol "MD5SUM-STRING" not found in the MD5 package. (the error is the same even if I use (require: sb-md5) or md5 builded from md5-1.8.5.tar.gz) 13:56:26 your md5 version is mismatched 13:56:36 bubo_ [~bubo@91.224.149.58] has joined #lisp 13:56:48 why aren't you using quicklisp? 13:57:17 and sb-md5 has nothing to do with md5 13:57:45 nha [~prefect@76.66.223.250] has joined #lisp 13:58:58 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-160-177.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 14:01:37 stassats`: How can I solve this mistmaching? -I use Quicklisp usually, but now I want to learn better the use of asdf - 14:01:55 quicklisp is using asdf 14:02:18 manually installing libraries won't increase your knowledge of asdf 14:05:20 -!- pakchoi2 [~pakchoi2@202.107.197.178] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:07:18 Thra11 [~thrall@46.208.89.201] has joined #lisp 14:07:54 -!- yawnt`afk is now known as yawnt 14:10:15 Are any of the guys behind quickdocs here? 14:10:55 pakchoi2 [~pakchoi2@202.107.197.178] has joined #lisp 14:11:11 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@50.1.48.160] has joined #lisp 14:12:01 -!- pakchoi2 [~pakchoi2@202.107.197.178] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 14:12:46 pakchoi2 [~pakchoi2@202.107.197.178] has joined #lisp 14:14:50 -!- Vivitron` [~Vivitron`@pool-98-110-213-33.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:15:10 *ebw* yawns 14:17:04 -!- xjiujiu [~quassel@218.77.14.202] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:17:47 yes? 14:17:48 lol 14:18:02 -!- pakchoi2 [~pakchoi2@202.107.197.178] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:21:35 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-20-52.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 14:21:56 pakchoi2 [~pakchoi2@202.107.197.178] has joined #lisp 14:22:43 stassats`: maybe ironclad is useful, I do not know.. 14:23:07 dioxirane: i don't follow you 14:23:30 I have to experiment a bit for my problem with md5.. anyway any suggestion is useful 14:23:42 what is your problem with md5? 14:24:36 Symbol "MD5SUM-STRING" not found in the MD5 package 14:25:00 I have downloaded the Fare's implementation of md5 14:25:03 didn't i already tell you that your md5 version is too old? 14:25:38 fantazo [~fantazo@213.129.230.10] has joined #lisp 14:26:10 if you insist on not using quicklisp, which is strange, then get md5 from https://github.com/pmai/md5 14:27:29 dioxirane, mine is not the fastest. I don't remember what pmai's implementation does to be even faster - maybe better buffer management 14:28:35 LiamH [~none@96.231.218.61] has joined #lisp 14:32:51 cornihilio [~cornihili@c-71-56-205-11.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:38:52 -!- sz0 [~user@94.55.194.230] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:39:47 -!- pakchoi2 [~pakchoi2@202.107.197.178] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:40:32 -!- impomatic [~digital_w@146.90.165.144] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:40:38 hey Fare. 14:41:06 pakchoi2 [~pakchoi2@202.107.197.178] has joined #lisp 14:41:59 -!- pakchoi2 [~pakchoi2@202.107.197.178] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 14:42:43 pakchoi2 [~pakchoi2@202.107.197.178] has joined #lisp 14:43:35 -!- pakchoi2 [~pakchoi2@202.107.197.178] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 14:44:04 -!- ebw [~user@g228071107.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 14:44:18 pakchoi2 [~pakchoi2@202.107.197.178] has joined #lisp 14:45:07 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@217.17.38.43] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:46:13 Thra11_ [~thrall@46.208.148.37] has joined #lisp 14:46:36 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 14:46:42 killerboy [~mateusz@217.17.38.43] has joined #lisp 14:47:05 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-108-52-166-246.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:47:56 -!- pakchoi2 [~pakchoi2@202.107.197.178] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:48:28 -!- Thra11 [~thrall@46.208.89.201] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:49:32 pakchoi2 [~pakchoi2@202.107.197.178] has joined #lisp 14:52:59 -!- pakchoi2 [~pakchoi2@202.107.197.178] has quit [Excess Flood] 14:53:15 -!- rmathews [~roshan@122.164.33.178] has quit [Quit: ...] 14:53:43 dnolen [~user@pool-71-183-180-232.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:53:52 pakchoi2 [~pakchoi2@202.107.197.178] has joined #lisp 14:54:19 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-20-52.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:55:10 dioxriane [~OXO@unaffiliated/dioxirane] has joined #lisp 14:56:22 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-20-52.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 14:56:48 -!- dioxriane [~OXO@unaffiliated/dioxirane] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:56:48 AeroNotix [~xeno@abok226.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 14:57:15 -!- newblue [~newblue@119.121.251.122] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:57:21 xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.140.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 14:57:22 -!- pakchoi2 [~pakchoi2@202.107.197.178] has quit [Excess Flood] 14:57:57 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@70.114.215.220] has quit [] 14:58:24 -!- dioxirane [~OXO@unaffiliated/dioxirane] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:58:37 pakchoi2 [~pakchoi2@202.107.197.178] has joined #lisp 14:58:40 dioxirane [~OXO@unaffiliated/dioxirane] has joined #lisp 14:59:38 -!- pakchoi2 [~pakchoi2@202.107.197.178] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 15:05:25 puchacz [~puchacz@46-65-36-47.zone16.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 15:05:57 spaceships [~spaceship@host-72-174-137-126.msl-mt.client.bresnan.net] has joined #lisp 15:06:27 pakchoi2 [~pakchoi2@202.107.197.178] has joined #lisp 15:07:52 doomlord [~doomlod@host86-171-15-248.range86-171.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 15:09:08 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:10:17 mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has joined #lisp 15:11:58 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-20-52.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 15:13:19 -!- pakchoi2 [~pakchoi2@202.107.197.178] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 15:13:50 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-20-52.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:14:15 stopbit [~stopbit@c-69-140-100-176.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:14:49 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:14:50 attila_lendvai1 [~attila_le@92.46.3.192] has joined #lisp 15:14:50 -!- attila_lendvai1 is now known as attila_lendvai 15:14:50 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@92.46.3.192] has quit [Changing host] 15:14:50 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 15:16:25 mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-71-163-43-88.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:17:54 sz0 [~user@94.55.194.230] has joined #lisp 15:18:53 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-71-163-43-88.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 15:21:29 how do I write functions or macros that accept parameters like format and then use those parameters to pass them to format again? 15:22:12 sepi: that's trivial, just pass it 15:22:13 breakds [~breakds@ppp-70-226-163-93.dsl.mdsnwi.ameritech.net] has joined #lisp 15:22:23 there's nothing special going on with format 15:22:55 as easy as (defun format-wrapper (control-string &rest args) (apply #'format t control-string args)) 15:23:08 http://paste.lisp.org/display/135633 That was my try 15:23:26 karswell [~user@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 15:24:09 sepi: this doesn't need to be a macro. 15:24:12 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-87-79-249-221.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 15:24:40 I see now 15:25:09 another way is (format t "~?" control-string args) 15:25:46 -!- sz0 [~user@94.55.194.230] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:25:59 sz0 [~user@94.55.194.230] has joined #lisp 15:27:02 linse [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1177916872.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 15:28:26 I didn't know about spreadable argument lists 15:30:05 normanrichards [~normanric@63.98.50.138] has joined #lisp 15:30:21 -!- billstcliar [~billstcla@p-69-195-52-28.dsl1.rtr.chat.fpma.frpt.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:31:22 jrajav [~jrajav@71-82-133-188.dhcp.roch.mn.charter.com] has joined #lisp 15:31:45 -!- cdidd [~cdidd@95-25-84-81.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:37:54 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-108-52-166-246.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:40:11 zacharias [~zacharias@unaffiliated/zacharias] has joined #lisp 15:40:39 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-20-52.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:41:49 I just made a macro (to avoid maintaining 2 almost identical pieces of code) and it's still amazing to me how powerful and easy that is. 15:42:28 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-20-6.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:43:53 -!- meyersh [~meyersh@198.102.147.253] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:44:07 meyersh [~meyersh@198.102.147.253] has joined #lisp 15:44:40 antonv [5d7d2a66@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.42.102] has joined #lisp 15:47:50 dim: now of course, the question is whether those two pieces of code need to be synchronized. Perhaps it just happens that two different features have the same implementation, but they will evolve differently? Was it really a fundamental similarity? 15:48:03 I think it was 15:48:08 welcome to lisp :) 15:48:16 new dilemmas 15:48:22 it's about driving and reporting tables then indexes creation around data import (streaming) 15:48:41 so it's about create SQL objects in both cases and reporting about it 15:49:20 -!- browndawg [~browndawg@117.201.94.198] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:49:38 my biggest lisp dilemma so far seems to be about 1. naming functions/macros and 2. using anonymous data structure or structures or classes 15:50:37 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-87-79-249-221.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:52:59 -!- Keshi [~Keshi@unaffiliated/keshi] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 15:53:46 -!- dioxirane [~OXO@unaffiliated/dioxirane] has left #lisp 15:54:26 oh and the whole flexibility of the beast makes for a quite steep learning curve 15:54:32 macak [~macak@37.244.207.141] has joined #lisp 15:55:17 asakawa` [~user@2402:f000:5:8c01:f2bf:97ff:fed2:17cd] has joined #lisp 15:55:20 mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-71-163-43-88.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:55:52 -!- asakawa` [~user@2402:f000:5:8c01:f2bf:97ff:fed2:17cd] has left #lisp 15:56:25 nyangawa [~user@2402:f000:5:8c01:f2bf:97ff:fed2:17cd] has joined #lisp 15:56:46 -!- nyangawa [~user@2402:f000:5:8c01:f2bf:97ff:fed2:17cd] has left #lisp 15:59:02 dim: fast learning with little effort? (the expression is somewhat ambiguous) 15:59:24 slow learning with lots of efforts 16:00:12 lots of little different things, quite simple each on their own, but subtlelties abound, and you can't do anything at all before you understand a fair number of them, subtelties included 16:00:25 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-20-6.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:00:40 dim: that's not my experience. 16:00:51 fair enough :) 16:01:44 especially the "you can't do anything at all before you understand a fair number of them" seems quite wrong to me 16:01:57 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-20-6.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:02:23 browndawg [~browndawg@117.201.81.247] has joined #lisp 16:03:04 -!- ZombieChicken [~ZombieChi@108-222-198-111.lightspeed.nsvltn.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in] 16:03:55 -!- ZombieChicekn [~weechat@unaffiliated/forgottenwizard] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:04:06 ZombieChicken [~ZombieChi@108-222-198-111.lightspeed.nsvltn.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:04:35 that might be the way I learn then 16:04:37 yeah, you can starting like it's C pretty or python pretty quickly 16:04:48 starting => start writing 16:04:50 forgottenwizard [~weechat@unaffiliated/forgottenwizard] has joined #lisp 16:05:00 (a weird contraction) 16:05:06 -!- ZombieChicken [~ZombieChi@108-222-198-111.lightspeed.nsvltn.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 16:05:10 -!- forgottenwizard is now known as ZombieChicken 16:05:36 forgottenwizard [~ZombieChi@108-222-198-111.lightspeed.nsvltn.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:07:43 my get-ready list includes: package, symbol, systems, quicklisp, basic slime installation, places, structures, boa constructors, CLOS and generics, macros, loop, threading, the limits of the standard, file based IO, conditions 16:07:57 dioxirane [~OXO@unaffiliated/dioxirane] has joined #lisp 16:08:28 I'm only starting to grasp conditions, then I have streams and MOP on the list 16:08:35 I forgot to include format in the main list 16:09:02 what's a "get-ready list"? 16:09:04 I didn't feel comfortable writing a single line of CL before having a minimum understanding of those concepts 16:09:38 get-ready == understand that before writing code 16:10:17 dim, you forgot "loop", the micro language ;) 16:10:20 how can you understand it if you're not writing code? 16:10:28 youtopia: nope, it's in, read again :) 16:10:39 yeah1 16:10:39 stassats`: I did write plenty of code, to learn 16:10:46 I wouldn't flag any of those production ready 16:10:52 it was all throaway projects 16:11:03 any run-once opportunity I did it in CL 16:11:10 but that's a list for becoming an expert in CL, not just writing code in it 16:11:35 well it's about understanding what it's about and a minimum of how it impacts the code you write 16:11:52 I didn't want to understand it fully yet 16:12:40 the difficulty is mainly the numbers of way those features interact with each others (which package is a defgeneric living in, how to create a new method in another package) 16:13:53 dim: I fear your way of learning is indeed causing you to miss an important point. 16:13:56 k0001 [~k0001@host3.186-109-182.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 16:14:02 which is? 16:14:17 relax. It's CL, not C++ 16:14:31 most of this stuff just works 16:14:41 write code you need, learn stuff as you go 16:14:47 yeah, I don't think I am the relaxed kind of guy 16:14:55 stassats`: that's what I did to learn yes 16:15:14 i think he is doing well 16:15:28 for bottom up programming you need to understand well first 16:15:32 but before releasing some code you want to have understood enough of CL to understand what's going on under the hood 16:15:42 stassats`: that's the python way, not the CL way 16:16:00 you're saying it like it's something bad 16:16:05 I'm getting out from python after about 12 years using it, btw :) 16:16:23 oh my god! 12 years! sorry for you, haha 16:16:27 impomatic [~digital_w@146.90.165.144] has joined #lisp 16:16:29 this is a positive smiley because the replacement I found is much superior and I'm happy about that 16:16:50 -!- dioxirane [~OXO@unaffiliated/dioxirane] has left #lisp 16:17:26 youtopia: you can understand well without understanding not well first 16:17:35 i heard they wanted to remove functional facilities from python nowdays 16:17:37 you can't 16:18:08 -!- AeroNotix [~xeno@abok226.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: Uploading hax.....] 16:18:12 hello, what do you use for tests? someone recommended fiveam, is it good? 16:18:37 dim: interestingly, you didn't have 'special variables' in your list. 16:18:56 stassats`: you'll understand better and faster if your original position was good 16:19:13 -!- dto [~user@pool-96-252-62-13.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:19:28 weirdo: http://nklein.com/2013/01/bowling-game-kata-in-common-lisp 16:19:39 there's some bootstrapping problem 16:19:45 you can't run without walking first 16:20:02 samebchase, thank oyu 16:20:22 stassats`: that's exactly what he is doing 16:20:54 while I don't necessarily want to say that dim shouldn't go about his way of learning, I think it is wrong to claim to you cannot get anything serious done without first spending a long time learning the language. 16:21:56 prxq: as i told before, his way will get him there faster and better 16:22:13 youtopia: will get him where? You don't get it either. 16:22:20 is a good way to optimize his time and learning process 16:22:31 prxq: I did a lot of emacs lisp before getting to CL 16:22:47 i don't understand what's being discussed anymore 16:22:53 *weirdo* is sad about leaning way too much toward static langs now :( 16:22:56 prxq: that might explain, even if I've then been burnt for not including it, and had to re-learn some lexical binding fundamentals 16:23:06 *weirdo* had to write sum-types for CL in order to be effective in his current task 16:23:24 what way? as opposed to which way? i'm just saying that knowing the whole language is not required to write programs 16:23:35 if dim didn't learn this way, he would apply what he knows about python on CL, and that's an incorrect aproach as I see it 16:23:35 ok, this time I have a better sbcl patch and cleanup. My, logical-pathnames are hell. 16:23:52 dim: i see :-) that's the one mayor thing newbies should learn before building something for real, IMO. 16:24:19 wish optima could warn if not all patterns are exhausted 16:24:21 i hate dynamic :( 16:24:24 youtopia: not from the point of view of getting stuff done. 16:24:24 generally, I would think that writing or trying to write useful, real-world code will provide a novice with more motivation to learn things, rather than doing exercises, which can get boring after a while. 16:24:29 prxq: here's my take about it: http://tapoueh.org/blog/2013/01/09-Lost-in-scope.html 16:24:40 exercises, do have their place, of course, but... 16:25:05 prxq: we're using CL, we don't JUST want to get staff done... we want it to me beatuful staff ;) 16:25:07 weirdo, I'm sure the author accepts patches 16:25:15 actually, I know he does, because I sent a few 16:25:17 and I'm not saying my way of approaching CL is the true one, it's just the one that works for me, all I'm saying is that saying that CL is easy might be wrong headed 16:25:29 weirdo, open a feature request 16:25:41 Fare, the issue here is that redefinition makes this brittle 16:25:55 dim: I agree, CL is *not* an easy language 16:25:59 Fare, also, design decision such as OR and AND-patterns make this even harder 16:26:06 Fare, dynamic typing, too 16:26:08 compared to what language? brainfuck? 16:26:09 for getting staff done i think python is sufficent... but he wants more, and I understand that 16:26:11 brainfuck is trivial 16:26:59 samebchase, lots of historical cruft can be ignored 16:27:41 I think it is a serious language, which will take a serious effort to learn to use well. 16:28:16 but it is ALSO a non-serious language, that will indulge you quite well in your hour of need 16:28:20 dim: have you read On Lisp? 16:28:32 why not read PCL? 16:28:34 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-20-6.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:28:36 and PAIP? 16:28:47 i don't recommend graham to everyone 16:28:48 YMMV 16:29:12 weirdo: why not? 16:29:33 dioxirane [~OXO@unaffiliated/dioxirane] has joined #lisp 16:29:33 because he doesn't like Common Lisp 16:29:53 -!- Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:30:35 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-20-6.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:30:48 and...? 16:31:08 -!- Fare [~fare@173-9-65-97-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:31:34 alagabes [~me@adac243.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 16:31:50 he understand CL pretty well and is a good teacher, he doesn't like CL very much because with the experience he has seen that things could be done better 16:32:24 well, arc sort of proves that he's wrong 16:32:41 i don't know any serius CL programmer who does like CL 100% 16:33:24 -!- dioxirane [~OXO@unaffiliated/dioxirane] has left #lisp 16:33:32 so, the ones who do like it are just not serious? 16:33:50 Fare [~fare@173-9-65-97-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 16:34:00 laptop heat death by sbcl 16:34:24 <``Erik> I like it, but it isn't perfect *shrug* ignoring criticism leads to cult behavior, though 16:34:44 -!- alagabes_ [~me@adgh120.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:34:52 ``Erik: I agree 16:35:26 and anyone serius and intelligent will see over the time that CL has some problems 16:35:32 -!- gko [~user@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:36:00 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:36:05 questions: how do you do better, within or without CL ? 16:36:06 ehu [~ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 16:36:26 what about true scotsmen? will they see it? 16:38:01 is it embarassing to use the eide emacs package? 16:38:02 stassats`: you made me to look at wikipedia XD 16:38:03 :) 16:38:11 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:38:33 <``Erik> no true scotsman would question superiority of lisp *cough* 16:38:58 What about false scotsmen? 16:39:01 most people using CL, are doing so because there is nothing better, which doesn't mean that it is wonderful 16:39:50 youtopia, what's your point? what are you bringing on the table? 16:40:02 PG tried to improve CL, but he's become very lazy because his is now millionare (thanks to CL, anyway) 16:40:27 well, he has better things to do... and things at which he's better, too. 16:40:33 dioxirane [~OXO@unaffiliated/dioxirane] has joined #lisp 16:40:47 he didn't try to improve it, he tried to replace it. 16:41:05 sure 16:41:31 that doesn't mean his books are bad, on teh contrary 16:42:03 someone who becomes 'famous' 16:42:25 Keshi [~Keshi@unaffiliated/keshi] has joined #lisp 16:42:27 has tendency to try to spout bullshit on subjects he knows nothing about 16:42:33 after the book and after using CL for many years 16:42:38 thinking he's authority figure on all 16:43:13 weirdo: he wrote On Lisp 20 years ago, long before all the hipe 16:43:33 youtopia, it's not a good CL book, due to all the idiosyncratic style 16:43:37 better try idiomatic CL 16:43:51 like what? 16:44:08 -!- zolk3ri [~zolk3ri@unaffiliated/zolk3ri] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 16:44:19 when i read attila_lendvai's code, it was nothing like this 16:44:30 don't hate CLOS, etc 16:44:59 graham hates CLOS and would instead make over 9k closures 16:45:06 PCL? It is like a book make for java programmers 16:45:14 bullshit 16:45:19 PCL is awesome book for beginners 16:45:22 :) 16:45:36 like 'real world haskell' and the like 16:46:13 eldariof [~CLD@pppoe-220-39-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has joined #lisp 16:46:30 I don't feel PCL teaches CL idiomatics 16:46:52 Too much stress is put on idiomatics. 16:46:53 and what background does have PCL's author? 16:47:09 rtoyg [~rtoyg@24.130.4.105] has joined #lisp 16:47:12 Just take languages as building bricks and combine them as you wish. 16:47:21 ball of mud? ok 16:47:38 Now of course, in other languages this may be problematic, but not in orthogonal languages like lisp. 16:48:04 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-87-79-249-221.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:48:32 still, having graham's viewpoint and disparaging gigamonkey's book leads to ruin 16:48:56 how is that? 16:49:26 youtopia, it certainly won't let one spit out good asdf systems used by many 16:49:27 is this kind of discussion when the goal is to prove the opponent is wrong or something? 16:49:47 "you don't like the book i like? well, i don't like the book you like!" 16:49:55 stassats`, when people argue, no one gets convinced anyway 16:50:03 Is possible a QI of 161 for a 16 years old girl? more than Gates :) 16:50:07 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-71-163-43-88.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 16:50:18 i liked on lisp to a degree, but wouldn't recommend to newbie 16:50:33 stassats`: you forgot the one issuing not to argue, but actually arguing too 16:51:40 dim: what books are you reading? 16:52:16 worstadmin [~worst@174.141.213.32] has joined #lisp 16:52:20 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-20-6.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:52:26 -!- linse [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1177916872.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: zzzz] 16:54:07 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-20-6.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:57:44 -!- breakds [~breakds@ppp-70-226-163-93.dsl.mdsnwi.ameritech.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 16:57:49 -!- worstadmin [~worst@174.141.213.32] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:57:56 -!- nha [~prefect@76.66.223.250] has quit [Quit: A person slipping in malware is a rogue. A closed source vendor slipping in malware is a business plan.] 16:58:35 -!- macak [~macak@37.244.207.141] has left #lisp 17:00:34 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 17:02:04 -!- rtoyg [~rtoyg@24.130.4.105] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 17:05:07 -!- Keshi [~Keshi@unaffiliated/keshi] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 17:05:36 morning Lispers (I seriously overslept) 17:05:36 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@213.129.230.10] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:05:36 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:06:11 -!- Fullma [~fullma@ram94-2-82-66-69-246.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:06:59 Fullma [~fullma@ram94-2-82-66-69-246.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 17:08:13 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:09:59 is it wrong to appreciate both PG's and gigamonkey's books, for different reasons? 17:10:52 you're righ, ThePhoeron 17:12:21 18:05:36 morning Lispers <- I'll say! 17:12:57 Gertm: heh, well I'm in TO so it's only noon here... which is still bad 17:14:27 youtopia: certainly, for my daily programming tasks what I learned from PCL is more useful. it *is* a practical book and gigamonkey's code is always useful 17:15:36 but I found a deeper appreciation for Lisp in PG's books, for whatever that's worth 17:16:09 I would agree that On Lisp is not so good as a first Lisp book, but it's not bad as a second 17:16:46 my favourite book was Let Over Lambda though 17:16:55 oh boy 17:17:12 ThePhoeron: do you use CL for work? 17:17:21 yeah 17:17:41 p_nathan [~Adium@98.145.116.195] has joined #lisp 17:17:42 what kind of work? 17:18:00 -!- dnolen [~user@pool-71-183-180-232.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:18:17 I'm currently converting all of a client's internal .net software to lisp 17:18:36 are you the boss? 17:18:38 so it's a lot of data-driven stuff, web portals 17:19:10 macak [~macak@37.244.207.141] has joined #lisp 17:19:15 the boss? I'm a contract developer 17:19:54 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-20-6.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:20:12 so you're the boss and you use CL, very nice 17:20:54 yeah, I guess I am my own boss... but in reality the client is the boss :) 17:21:09 -!- ISF [~ivan@189.61.223.79] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.0] 17:21:34 and is always right 17:21:45 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-20-6.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:21:46 does the client imposes what languages to choose? 17:21:56 samebchase: yeah :\ 17:22:19 p_nathan1 [~Adium@98.145.116.195] has joined #lisp 17:22:29 youtopia: the client wanted to move to open source, so I made my recommendations 17:22:47 -!- p_nathan [~Adium@98.145.116.195] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:23:02 so you guided him to choose CL 17:23:36 and you do it alone, with low bus number? 17:23:36 sucks 17:23:54 it's bad for the client. president, but the profit! 17:24:30 it's not so bad 17:24:46 I'm a bit of a workaholic, so I tend to get stuff done 17:25:02 ThePhoeron: what problems did you encountered in the transition to CL? 17:25:04 mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-71-163-43-88.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:25:12 stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-001-188.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 17:25:21 the only problem is when I overthink the problem at hand 17:25:22 SSG [~siddayyag@122.172.43.246] has joined #lisp 17:25:47 but I start from the end result, the workflow they ideally want 17:26:40 ThePhoeron, bus number is bad for his Profit 17:26:56 what CL compiler/libraries do you use? 17:27:22 I use SBCL 17:27:38 web apps built on hunchentoot 17:28:01 do you use parenscript? 17:28:19 yeah, fairly often actually 17:28:35 -!- dioxirane [~OXO@unaffiliated/dioxirane] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:29:05 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-160-177.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:29:10 so you do everything in CL right now 17:29:29 as much as possible, yes 17:30:25 also, I use postmodern for data 17:30:30 how was that decision to transition to CL? 17:30:40 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@63.98.50.138] has quit [] 17:30:58 [SLB]` [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has joined #lisp 17:31:13 -!- [SLB]` is now known as [SLB] 17:31:28 -!- Thra11_ [~thrall@46.208.148.37] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:32:29 youtopia: how was that decision made? or how has it been going? 17:32:53 Thra11_ [~thrall@87.113.55.94] has joined #lisp 17:32:55 both ;) 17:33:28 both very big questions, long answers... 17:33:51 -!- Slivka [~Slivka@81.4.242.0] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:33:52 well, no 17:33:58 -!- p_nathan1 [~Adium@98.145.116.195] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:34:05 p_nathan [~Adium@98.145.116.195] has joined #lisp 17:35:10 it's been going well, one team is using the beta deployment of my software every day 17:35:57 oh my god, i was going to ask you to publish here, but look what i found: http://wiki.alu.org/The%20Road%20to%20Lisp%20Survey 17:36:03 internal server error... 17:36:12 -!- bjorkintosh [~bjork@ip68-13-229-200.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:36:51 error while parsing arguments to DESTRUCTURING-BIND, funny XD 17:37:42 heh 17:37:50 ThePhoeron: so you manage a team? 17:38:10 hope a customer sees something like that! 17:38:14 what is this, an inquisition? 17:38:21 s/sees/never sees/ 17:38:47 -!- Thra11_ [~thrall@87.113.55.94] has quit [Quit: kthxbai] 17:38:49 bjorkintosh [~bjork@ip68-13-229-200.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 17:39:14 sbcl is so verbose XD 17:39:24 damn that sucks, my trying to write ML code in lisp :( 17:40:23 Bike [~Glossina@63-229-134-7.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 17:40:32 Thra11 [~thrall@87.113.55.94] has joined #lisp 17:40:36 i would say this is a security problem, as people can see your backtrace and probably extract information for future attacks 17:41:23 there might be even some password to the database or something in that code 17:41:53 is that the way Hunchentoot reports problems? 17:42:18 yes, but you can disable that 17:42:21 youtopia, thiis is a non-commercial wiki 17:42:27 you're overreacting 17:42:55 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-20-6.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:43:01 that's why i ask if this the standard way that Hunchentoot acts 17:44:20 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-20-6.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:45:31 youtopia: no. 17:45:46 linse [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1177916872.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 17:46:05 bananagram [~bot@c-98-198-236-112.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:46:49 I found the default hunchentoot configuration actually too opaque for debugging, but there's a configuration variable for that. 17:47:49 what should I use as string-case? I couldn't find anything in alexandria. 17:48:01 -!- bubo_ [~bubo@91.224.149.58] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:48:22 sepi: string-case is in quicklisp. 17:48:27 nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-137-64.w90-26.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 17:48:28 oh, nice 17:48:30 thanks 17:48:53 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 17:49:36 sepi: you can pass :test #'string= (or #'string-equal) to SWITCH in alexandria 17:50:03 Depending on the context, interning into # and then using CASE might be applicable, too. 17:50:30 Sorry if I'm doing something very wrong, but can anyone tell me why SBCL returns "" from (with-output-to-string (stream) (sb-ext:run-program "echo" '("foo") :output stream)) ? 17:51:05 fds: pass :search t or use an explicit path to the echo binary 17:51:06 -!- nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-50-13.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:51:50 tcr: Oh, I see. Thanks! 17:52:08 ""? it should be an error 17:53:00 tcr: well, string-case from quicklisp seems to do the job for me. Even if I don't need the performance. 17:53:07 -!- LiamH [~none@96.231.218.61] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:53:20 stassats`, errors are expensive :) 17:53:25 but so is fork/execve 17:53:35 weirdo: what are you talking about? 17:54:40 stassats`, exception handling 17:55:06 rmathews [~roshan@122.164.33.178] has joined #lisp 17:55:24 that's a non-sequitur, nobody was talking about exception handling costs 17:55:53 ok 17:55:54 sorry 17:56:41 question: what general utility libraries would you recommend to install from quicklisp? I mean utilities that you find yourself using one and another time because they are missing in the standard 17:56:53 alexandria 17:57:14 but you'll write your own soon 17:57:21 alexandria doesn't have everything 17:57:31 arnesi is an old, crufty one 17:59:13 interesting 18:02:27 are alexandria and arnesi mutually excluyent? 18:02:39 no 18:02:51 but i recommend alexandria instead, as well 18:03:45 interesting 18:03:52 do you use any non-blocking library? 18:03:58 non-blocking IO* 18:04:17 iolib 18:04:44 recommend threads and blocking io :P 18:05:01 unless you're willing to roll up all handling 18:05:05 arnesi is good. for multithreading looking into bordeaux-threads and lparallel is a wise thing to do (as you mentioned non-blocking io) 18:05:29 weirdo: i like the aproach that node.js has about this 18:06:33 madnificent: good 18:06:45 youtopia, consing closures like there's no tomorrow? 18:07:01 -!- linse [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1177916872.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:07:08 node only does that cause there's no MP in js 18:07:19 spawning threads is cheaper than GC 18:07:20 linse [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1177916872.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 18:07:21 yeah, making everything asynchronous in a single-threaded application is really really awesome. 18:07:50 and fast 18:08:24 yes, node.js not having threads is weird 18:08:26 http://paste.lisp.org/display/135635 <- Indenting docstrings. How do you guys fix this? 18:10:25 samebchase: can it be fixed easily? 18:11:27 I think not indenting the first line, might work 18:11:41 and won't look too bad 18:13:13 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f75473b.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 18:15:12 and what about emacs? if you indent the function it will break your convention, unless you modify slime 18:16:34 TDT [~user@108.160.230.38] has joined #lisp 18:18:44 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 18:18:45 xcombelle [~xcombelle@AToulouse-551-1-74-224.w92-146.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 18:19:18 samebchase: it's indented correctly in your paste 18:19:57 *madnificent* indents them manually. yes, it's suboptimal, but it breaks the way i read the code otherwise 18:19:59 yes, but doesn't the misalignment bother anyone? 18:20:10 samebchase: not if you don't read in the source code 18:20:35 okay. 18:20:44 the whole reason for indentation is that i don't have to focus on the parens and other details, just on the structure. 18:20:45 madnificent: that is what I thought 18:22:12 _d3f [~freedo@nl2.ovpn.to] has joined #lisp 18:22:36 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 18:24:47 oops, sorry 18:25:36 do you happen to know if get-internal-real-time returns monotonic time? the hyperspec doesn't seem to say 18:25:43 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@217.17.38.43] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:25:47 samebchase: writing an emacs script to do the indentation for you shouldn't be hard, but it's also not completely correct imho. it should be read as a normal string. 18:25:53 Adeon: it's not guaranteed 18:26:13 Adeon: use iolib if you want to be certain 18:26:27 killerboy [~mateusz@217.17.38.43] has joined #lisp 18:26:32 okely dokely 18:26:32 thanks 18:27:29 madnificent: okay. I probably am making a bigger deal out of this than I should. 18:27:36 toekutr [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 18:29:35 just don't write long docstrings 18:29:43 the code environment should be as helpful as possible, the indentation helps me. i'm not sure what a 'good' solution constitutes of, but i find it just that it should look indented. 18:29:44 one line, two maximum 18:30:14 stassats`: yeah, the code always speaks for itself. i'm too good to write documentation ;-) 18:31:03 docstrings is poor documentation anyhow 18:31:16 stassats`: do you write other documentation? 18:31:50 -!- yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.169] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:32:27 it doesn't matter what i write 18:34:04 thing is, if you say it's poor documentation and you don't do something else, then it just sounds like a bad excuse. it could still be just, the chance is just lower. i've written some literate programming things, that's a potential alternative (though it doesn't seem ideal either) 18:34:16 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-108-52-166-246.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:34:56 billstclair [~billstcla@67.158.164.249] has joined #lisp 18:34:56 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@67.158.164.249] has quit [Changing host] 18:34:56 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 18:36:20 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-108-52-166-246.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:36:41 normanrichards [~normanric@rrcs-108-178-120-144.sw.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:37:20 i didn't say "don't write documentation" 18:37:35 i know 18:38:44 leoncamel [~leoncamel@1.202.63.179] has joined #lisp 18:39:33 I wish I was better at documentation. 18:39:50 I've run into problems looking at older code and sometimes it's easier to just rewrite something than figure out what I did. 18:40:22 Which really is kinda a waste of time. Trying to get better at dealing with that...too many "one-off" kinda stuff sitting around. 18:42:00 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:42:24 samebchase: Indent docstrings like emacs does. its a standard. /me shrugs 18:43:09 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 18:43:19 -!- p_nathan [~Adium@98.145.116.195] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:43:22 ebw [~user@g228071107.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 18:44:09 yes. that is what I've decided. 18:44:26 -!- browndawg [~browndawg@117.201.81.247] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:45:17 Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has joined #lisp 18:45:23 -!- linse [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1177916872.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: zzzz] 18:46:45 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 18:47:16 dioxirane [~OXO@unaffiliated/dioxirane] has joined #lisp 18:48:13 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 18:49:01 -!- Jubb [~Jubb@pool-108-28-62-61.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:50:57 The docs at http://weitz.de/hunchentoot/#acceptor-status-message say it takes three args, and the third is "content". But my version (1.2.11) takes only two required args. Are the docs referring to some older version or some newer version? Or what? 18:50:58 -!- Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:51:18 *Xach* is trying to get painless dynamic 404 pages working 18:52:29 i blame H4ns 18:52:53 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@91.176.7.143] has joined #lisp 18:52:54 -!- Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@91.176.7.143] has quit [Changing host] 18:52:54 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 18:54:23 ldionmarcil [~user@unaffiliated/maden] has joined #lisp 18:58:25 -!- SSG [~siddayyag@122.172.43.246] has left #lisp 19:02:53 nforgerit [~nforgerit@HSI-KBW-149-172-198-162.hsi13.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 19:03:39 -!- nforgerit [~nforgerit@HSI-KBW-149-172-198-162.hsi13.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Client Quit] 19:05:03 -!- toekutr [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:05:55 -!- am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:06:58 What has been the convention for comments? One semicolon - inline comment, two semicolons - comment for the whole function and three semicolons - ??? 19:07:03 or so? 19:07:46 ebw: four for the start of a file, three for after that, two for on its own line in a function, one for after a line of code in a function. 19:07:49 linse [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1177916872.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 19:07:57 I think there's a cliki page with examples, but I'm not sure. 19:07:59 Xach: thank 19:07:59 clhs 2.4.4.2 19:07:59 Notes about Style for Semicolon: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_ddb.htm 19:08:26 lol the standard speaks about that? 19:08:39 *Xach* didn't know that, good to know 19:09:34 *Fare* wonders whether to make another asdf release with all the corner case fixes from the last few days. 19:10:27 and the support for single-fasl sbcl contribs that don't require asdf but can still work with it. 19:13:06 -!- dioxirane [~OXO@unaffiliated/dioxirane] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:15:05 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-71-163-43-88.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 19:16:12 /quit 19:16:20 -!- akovalen` [~user@77.51.4.104] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 19:17:13 AeroNotix [~xeno@abof254.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 19:17:18 akovalenko [~user@77.51.4.104] has joined #lisp 19:17:19 dioxirane [~OXO@unaffiliated/dioxirane] has joined #lisp 19:18:24 bamage00 [~siddharth@cpe-75-187-42-203.columbus.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:19:28 Hi, I am making a Lisp Interpreter for a class project. Anything that might help me to start out will be appreciated. Thanks! 19:19:42 minion: please tell bamage00 about LiSP 19:19:42 bamage00: look at LiSP: "Lisp in Small Pieces". This book covers Lisp, Scheme and other related dialects, their interpretation, semantics and compilation. To sum it up in a few figures: 500 pages, 11 chapters, 11 interpreters and 2 compilers. 19:19:55 qNemo [~qN@89.207.216.208] has joined #lisp 19:20:21 minion: Great, thanks! Will have a look. 19:20:22 watch out, you'll make krystof angry 19:20:22 -!- qptain_Nemo [~qN@89.207.216.208] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 19:20:59 minion: BEST minion EVAR 19:21:00 does torturing a poor bot with things beyond its comprehension please you? 19:21:04 yes. 19:21:07 yes it does. 19:25:18 bamage00: the lisp 1.5 spec will probably help you too, if you only need a basic lisp 19:25:44 joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@086.112-30-64.ftth.swbr.surewest.net] has joined #lisp 19:25:51 madnificent: Thanks! 19:26:38 just a semi-random note: the quickdocs project looks cool 19:27:17 -!- linse [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1177916872.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:27:32 ehu: link? 19:27:54 linse [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1177916872.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 19:28:22 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-20-6.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:28:37 is fset bearable? 19:28:53 madnificent: http://quickdocs.org/ 19:30:13 weirdo: ? 19:30:26 portable, you mean? 19:31:46 -!- ManaLord [~master@c-f696e455.37-0081-74657210.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:32:19 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@50.1.48.160] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 19:32:37 ehu, no 19:32:43 it's not very idiomatic 19:32:49 and shadows WITH from iterate 19:32:54 i hate the latter 19:33:31 ehu: cool 19:33:47 Thra11_ [~thrall@80.104.113.87.dyn.plus.net] has joined #lisp 19:35:18 is there a great piece on live programming vs cult of dead programming, besides http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/2950 ? 19:35:51 -!- Thra11 [~thrall@87.113.55.94] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:42:09 -!- TDT [~user@108.160.230.38] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:42:24 jaaso [~jaaso_@effic.me] has joined #lisp 19:42:37 -!- jaaso [~jaaso_@effic.me] has left #lisp 19:42:51 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-87-79-249-221.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:42:52 weirdo, personally, I prefer LIL. 19:46:35 McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has joined #lisp 19:46:50 Fare, what's LIL? 19:47:06 -!- bananagram [~bot@c-98-198-236-112.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:47:49 lisp-interface-library 19:48:06 combining ad-hoc and parametric polymorphism FTW 19:48:17 thanks 19:49:09 ah. the library, not the function. 19:49:42 Fare: didn't know about that piece. thanks :-) enjoyed reading it a lot. 19:49:47 no, I don't know any others. 19:49:56 was i right making my own summed-type impl? 19:50:02 or is there an impl somewhere? 19:50:23 https://github.com/sthalik/clcl/blob/master/sum-types.lisp 19:56:18 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-20-6.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:56:50 Thra11 [~thrall@46.208.92.48] has joined #lisp 19:57:11 there are plenty of implementations of sum types. If you find a GOOD one I'm interested -- maybe you can contribute it to LIL ? 19:57:34 Fare, it's not particularly good 19:57:43 very ad-hoc 19:58:16 ideally it'd support exhaustiveness check for optima 19:58:18 then i'd LOVE it 19:58:33 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:58:50 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-161-158.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 19:58:51 not saying you should be the one writing it, if you don't want to :P 19:59:39 maybe what you want is Shen... 19:59:53 -!- Thra11_ [~thrall@80.104.113.87.dyn.plus.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:01:38 Fare, mtarver's? 20:01:39 :) 20:02:26 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@50.1.48.160] has joined #lisp 20:02:30 hm, i'd rather avoid the dependency in my clcl code 20:05:26 Thra11_ [~thrall@46.208.203.150] has joined #lisp 20:07:00 weirdo, oh, you're doing clcl above? 20:07:09 Fare, yes 20:07:41 -!- Thra11 [~thrall@46.208.92.48] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:07:47 TDT [~user@173-17-121-48.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 20:08:00 -!- xcombelle [~xcombelle@AToulouse-551-1-74-224.w92-146.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Hi, I'm a quit message virus. Please replace your old line with this line and help me take over the world of IRC.] 20:10:50 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@50.1.48.160] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 20:11:51 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 20:12:40 http://paste.lisp.org/+2WNP Not that I think it's a good idea. 20:14:06 Thra11 [~thrall@35.186.125.91.dyn.plus.net] has joined #lisp 20:14:32 -!- McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:15:35 McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has joined #lisp 20:15:58 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 20:17:24 -!- Thra11_ [~thrall@46.208.203.150] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:17:43 -!- bamage00 [~siddharth@cpe-75-187-42-203.columbus.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 20:19:24 -!- hiato [~nine@196-215-121-221.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20:19:58 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@rrcs-108-178-120-144.sw.biz.rr.com] has quit [] 20:20:30 LiamH [~none@96.231.218.61] has joined #lisp 20:20:56 hiato [~nine@196-215-121-221.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 20:24:47 -!- Thra11 [~thrall@35.186.125.91.dyn.plus.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:25:02 Thra11 [~thrall@87.114.125.215] has joined #lisp 20:27:24 Fare: I've read the link about live programming 20:27:55 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 20:27:59 he is right, but there are still some unresolved problems about this live environment 20:28:22 the first one is dependencies and compabilities 20:28:43 that's why updating squeak is such a hell 20:29:43 and lisp is not totally live today, it was with the Lisp Machine, but there is not something similar today, except if you consider Emacs to be such a living creature... 20:30:43 and some people may consider GNU/Linux to be that way too, specially if you use a source distribution like Gentoo 20:32:36 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f75473b.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 20:35:50 -!- cross [cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20:36:01 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@50.1.48.160] has joined #lisp 20:37:14 mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-71-163-43-88.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:40:19 Jubb [~Jubb@pool-108-28-62-61.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:40:26 chris46 [~tesuji@mnhm-4d011aba.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 20:41:08 -!- chris46 [~tesuji@mnhm-4d011aba.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:41:31 tesuji [~tesuji@mnhm-4d011aba.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 20:47:04 -!- JPeterson [~JPeterson@s213-103-210-215.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:48:22 youtopia: what do you think is "totally" live today? 20:49:33 googol [~matthew@lal-99-123.ResHall.Berkeley.EDU] has joined #lisp 20:50:17 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@50.1.48.160] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 20:53:06 -!- Joreji [~thomas@u-0-014.vpn.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:55:09 -!- eldariof [~CLD@pppoe-220-39-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has quit [] 20:57:22 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:59:23 holycow [~holycow@host-216-251-135-194.bchsia.skywaywest.net] has joined #lisp 20:59:37 youtopia: I've skimmed through PCL yes, that's about it 20:59:49 hi all 20:59:49 I'm not that much into books to learn 21:00:07 the standard, some reference docs, and excuses to write throw-away code 21:01:08 JPeterson [~JPeterson@s213-103-210-215.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 21:01:17 normanrichards [~normanric@rrcs-108-178-120-144.sw.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:01:41 -!- strobegen [~strobegen@64.120.223.138] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in] 21:01:57 well, that's a slow way indeed 21:02:21 that's the way I like it :) 21:02:45 no wonder you were complaining about the learning curve 21:02:58 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 21:03:06 i find combining different books helps a lot. each author has his own slant and perspective that may or may not match my perspective 21:03:08 *drewc* actually did use PCL (before it was published IIRC) to start learning lisp back in the day 21:03:24 CLtL2 is also very nice. 21:03:37 stassats`: the first code snippet I wrote had a good enough experience that I wanted to continue 21:04:09 *drewc* mumbles about PAIP being the tops of the pops and turns back the the REPL 21:04:25 i just finished these tutorials: http://alarm.cti.depaul.edu/lisptutor/login 21:04:26 reading standards won't help you arrive at elegant ways to solve problems, reading code written by others will 21:04:30 *dim* mutters that some day he should just read PAIP 21:04:46 luqui [~luqui@71-218-28-123.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 21:04:47 now real code is usually hard to read, so it's better to read code which is educational, like the on in books 21:04:48 oh, the Norvig's paper about Style Guide or something 21:04:53 like PCL or PAIP 21:04:57 impomatic2 [~digital_w@146.90.165.144] has joined #lisp 21:05:04 very basic, but very eye opening on the structure of lisp. reading some of the books, the authors jump a lot as they expect the programmers to have tons of experience already 21:05:07 luv-slides.ps 21:05:14 minion: luv-slides? 21:05:14 luv-slides: luv-slides is a slide show by Kent Pitman and Peter Norvig discussing good programming style in Lisp and more generally. See 21:05:14 that one was great to learn from 21:05:23 minion: ping 21:05:23 ping: pong 21:05:28 so many details you don't grasp that you want to search about 21:05:34 damn, no timing! 21:05:51 minion feels strangely responsive 21:05:53 clhs list 21:05:53 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_list.htm 21:06:20 well my angle was that I already knew elisp and wanted to learn about "the real thing" 21:06:27 interesting ... that is fast 21:06:44 specbot seems slower 21:07:01 -!- impomatic2 [~digital_w@146.90.165.144] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:07:50 -!- impomatic [~digital_w@146.90.165.144] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:07:53 -!- xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.140.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:08:04 dim: (typep '|Common Lisp| 'real) => NIL ;) 21:09:08 after a while it becomes not details, but the big picture, how to put all the details into a structure, to be able to write large programs 21:09:20 impomatic2 [~digital_w@146.90.165.144] has joined #lisp 21:09:21 exactly 21:09:34 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-20-6.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:09:39 that's the point that I've been missing for a long time when learning CL 21:09:43 and that I think I still miss 21:10:03 dim, what is your programming background? 21:10:05 There is a significant difference between software development and computer programming 21:10:10 just curious 21:10:41 Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 21:11:20 well, learnt with pascal then Ada, then assembler and C, then mainly did some Erlang and Python, switched to a SQL/PHP job where I also did significant Java programs, then back to C, Python, SQL, then added elisp, then CL 21:11:32 -!- weie [~eie@softbank221078042071.bbtec.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 21:11:36 v cool 21:11:56 are you actually having problems learning lisp? doesn't seem like it should really present you much problems 21:11:58 strz [~strobegen@64.120.223.138] has joined #lisp 21:12:13 -!- strz is now known as strobegen 21:12:38 stassats` summary is the best, writing code in lisp is easy, organising a program with some idea about its maintenance cost is very hard 21:12:58 i don't think so 21:13:11 sorry, hard to learn how to do 21:13:22 compared to what? 21:13:26 I don't think it's going to be hard to actually do once you've learnt how 21:13:48 Java is much easier there, you have about no freedom at all 21:13:59 Erlang with OTP also is paving the game for you 21:14:20 in C I mainly contribute to existing software, so the question don't arise much 21:14:43 in Python again packages/modules have a direct impact on the file-based code layout, not that much freedom 21:14:58 I'm trying the one-package-per-file approach in CL now 21:15:00 we'll see 21:15:17 dim: w00t! :) 21:15:25 *stassats`* 's going to invent one function per directory approach 21:15:48 and store it in the inode, i heard it's all the rage these days 21:16:01 *drewc* loves the one package per file thing, and has made his code a lot 'better', in his opinion. 21:16:08 stassats`: oohh even better! 21:16:16 no :use, one-package-per-file, all defpackage forms in a single package.lisp, it seems to help structuring code 21:16:16 LDAP even... 21:16:35 but really it's like blcak magic to get to know how to do that 21:16:51 drewc: lol 21:16:54 oh, well I cannot recommend that, but if that is what you prefer, then enjoy :) 21:17:07 -!- impomatic2 [~digital_w@146.90.165.144] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:17:09 well just store all the code in some PostgreSQL tables :) 21:17:14 is there elisp code that opens lisp systems fully? 21:17:18 with .asd and .lisp 21:17:35 I had a colleague who did that with PHP just for fun, apparently his team didn't share the same "fun" definition than he did 21:17:55 *SNRK* 21:17:57 on ext4 the default left space inside an inode is about 128 bytes, that'll force short functions 21:18:23 ... why the fuck did I have a flashback on what Java's HotSpot considers inlineable? 21:18:27 *drewc* actually has that .. not 'code' but PRINTed lisp 'data' 21:18:31 ahh, $DAYJOB 21:18:35 is postgresql ^ 21:18:51 weirdo: slime-open-system 21:18:56 stassats`, thank you! 21:19:26 am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has joined #lisp 21:19:39 drewc: did I ever do the lil presentation to you? 21:19:42 stassats`, it doesn't exist in fancy? 21:19:49 I feel like re-doing the lil presentation at some point. 21:19:50 it's in slime-asdf 21:19:58 ok 21:20:25 pure awesomeness 21:20:26 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@50.1.48.160] has joined #lisp 21:20:31 and turns out, i write slime-open-system, but never use it 21:20:46 s/write/wrote/ 21:21:14 drewc, also, what's the status on quick-build ? 21:21:35 now that the main asdf heat is winding down, it might be time to add quick-build support to it. 21:22:25 Fare: I have not quite touched it yet, and for that matter have not looked in to ASDF as much as I should, however, I agree that it might be time... I just have a lack of that atm. 21:22:31 -!- sz0 [~user@94.55.194.230] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:23:09 *drewc* is right now working on this: http://alpha.common-lisp.net/blog/2013/02/18_scripting-with-sbcl-unix-admin-from-command-line.html 21:23:47 what's that? a qr-code for ants? 21:24:01 stassats`, you don't use eide, that's why 21:24:06 -!- am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:24:37 stassats`, http://ananke.laggygamerz.com/dump/eide.png 21:25:17 drewc, inferior-shell gives a much nicer syntax to some of these 21:25:38 Fare: is the current version of asdf in quicklisp including the "run sub-program" and "parse command args" and "build an image" features 21:25:40 +? 21:25:48 dioxirane: only smalltalk variants are totally live. Lisp has a REPL, yes, but it is very opaque in comparison. 21:26:13 stassats`: heh, autogened 21:27:14 Fare: yeah, it probably does, However, I am not using that at all, that was 6 days ago! :) 21:28:13 (first (run/lines `(pwgen -ns 20 1))) 21:28:31 dim: not in quicklisp 21:28:42 Xach is waiting for things to get more stable. 21:28:56 ok, please consider a blog post when things land in quicklisp 21:29:00 What with 35 quicklisp libraries still being broken. 21:29:05 hmmm ... does anyone know what this quickdocs.org thing is? there is a post on lisp.reddit.com on it but no description 21:29:05 so that I know I can begin to depend on them 21:29:14 dim: install from git 21:29:24 it's docs, quick docs 21:29:40 Fare: that's not how I know I can depend on it, but I appreciate the tip, thanks 21:29:49 Fare: yeah, that is much nicer for pwgen, innit. So inferior-shell is the 'right' way to go? 21:30:01 dim: cl-build probably can fetch the latest for you -- it's a valuable complement to quicklisp 21:30:18 drewc: I believe inferior-shell is the right way to go 21:30:40 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-5f75fa43.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:30:51 Fare: well, trust you i do, especially for that sort of thing, so use it i will. 21:31:22 oh, i guess quickdocs is somehow supposed to be used with quicklisp to generate documentation 21:31:25 neat 21:31:26 just wait till someone write a superior shell 21:31:56 http://quickdocs.org/clack <-- kinda neat example of a page 21:32:12 inferior-shell sure could use some improvement 21:33:12 -!- Euthy [~euthy@unaffiliated/euthydemus] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:35:19 -!- tcr [~tcr@77-56-40-229.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:36:34 -!- Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:37:44 -!- ebw [~user@g228071107.adsl.alicedsl.de] has left #lisp 21:40:47 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:44:57 dnolen [~user@pool-71-183-180-232.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:45:22 youlysses [~user@75-132-7-80.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 21:45:51 is it possible to force an occurs check w/o cyclic pointers? 21:46:06 would rather have a unit test 21:46:18 brandonz [~brandon@c-24-6-4-232.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:46:33 http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=Gf8Ln3R2 21:46:39 here is my type system 21:47:36 also should there be first-class functors? 21:47:44 bah, forgot about modules :P 21:48:08 Kajtek [~nope@ip197-233.ghnet.pl] has joined #lisp 21:48:57 -!- Kajtek [~nope@ip197-233.ghnet.pl] has left #lisp 21:49:38 -!- yawnt is now known as yawnt`zzz 21:52:34 -!- dioxirane [~OXO@unaffiliated/dioxirane] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:52:43 Fare: cl-build does not seem to provide anything better than cd ~/quicklisp/local-projects && git clone , right? 21:53:24 dunno, I havn't used clbuidl in a while, just git 21:53:57 clhs with-condition-restarts 21:53:58 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_w_cnd_.htm 21:54:31 -!- sellout- [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:56:38 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@50.1.48.160] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 21:59:06 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@50.1.48.160] has joined #lisp 21:59:51 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@50.1.48.160] has quit [Client Quit] 22:01:46 clhs define-condition 22:01:46 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defi_5.htm 22:02:15 tcr [~tcr@84-72-21-32.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 22:04:11 -!- brandonz [~brandon@c-24-6-4-232.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 22:06:45 -!- tcr [~tcr@84-72-21-32.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:07:01 -!- macak [~macak@37.244.207.141] has quit [Quit: macak] 22:07:10 -!- linse [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1177916872.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Read error: 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[~qN@89.207.216.209] has joined #lisp 23:06:10 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@50.1.48.160] has joined #lisp 23:06:49 -!- impomatic2 is now known as impomatic 23:06:50 hiato [~nine@196-215-121-221.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 23:07:26 -!- kaiblocks [~kai@74-140-149-100.dhcp.insightbb.com] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 23:07:53 BeLucid [~belucid@cpe-066-057-034-009.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:11:16 -!- Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:11:34 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@rrcs-108-178-120-144.sw.biz.rr.com] has quit [] 23:12:47 cpc26 [~chatzilla@fsf/member/cpc26] has joined #lisp 23:13:11 toekutr [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 23:14:20 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@91-157-48-10.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 23:15:20 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:16:10 -!- cpc26 [~chatzilla@fsf/member/cpc26] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:16:23 -!- pjb` is now known as pjb 23:17:19 breakds [~breakds@ppp-70-226-163-93.dsl.mdsnwi.ameritech.net] has joined #lisp 23:17:36 -!- hiato [~nine@196-215-121-221.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:18:57 djuber [~user@c-76-16-60-176.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:19:24 -!- jeekl [~crz@unaffiliated/jeekl] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:21:12 -!- Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-96-255-72-75.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:21:39 meiji11 [~user@d50-99-51-156.abhsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 23:27:01 normanrichards [~normanric@70.114.215.220] has joined #lisp 23:27:03 Is archive.org and MIT's site, probably the best places to find lisp-machine documentation? 23:27:18 arrsim [~user@mail.fitness2live.com.au] has joined #lisp 23:27:27 i think bitsavers has some manuals 23:27:34 adelgado [~TomSawyer@c-66-229-185-165.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:27:39 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-71-163-43-88.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 23:27:58 http://www.softwarepreservation.org/search?SearchableText=lisp 23:30:27 Bike: pjb: Very cool, thanks! 23:34:53 Forty-Two [~seana11@pool-96-255-72-75.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:35:03 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@50.1.48.160] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 23:42:20 -!- agumonkey [~agu@61.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 23:49:20 Corvidium [~cosman246@c-24-56-228-105.customer.broadstripe.net] has joined #lisp 23:49:53 -!- sirdancealot7 [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 23:51:23 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 23:52:11 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@50.1.48.160] has joined #lisp 23:52:32 sirdancealot7 [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 23:53:45 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@50.1.48.160] has quit [Client Quit] 23:54:15 -!- youtopia 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