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00:43:38 <nialo> how do I get lisp to display result in decimal instead of as a rational number?  .5 instead of 1/2, say
00:44:24 <Bike> nialo: (float your-result)
00:45:25 <nialo> k
00:45:26 <nialo> thanks :)
00:45:39 <nialo> should be obvious I guess :(
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00:54:29 <wakeup> why is all the encoding stuff in cl-base64 commented out?
00:55:07 <wakeup> (quicklisp's dist)
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01:11:47 <Fare> nialo: or use wu-decimal
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04:21:48 <justdit> hi! where can I get list of functions from sb-di and debug? or something like documentation?
04:25:36 <toekutr`> if you're using slime you can type in sb-di:  or sb-debug: and hit C-c TAB, not sure about documentation though
04:26:10 <Bike> or (apropos "" "SB-DI" t)
04:26:39 <Bike> looks like some of the exported function names have docstrings, too.
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04:42:26 <justdit> thanks guys, btw, is it good case to use sb-di and sb-debug for analysing stack frames?or there's a better approach?
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05:16:02 <duko> hi everyone I'm looking for a suggestion...
05:16:40 <duko> I'm having difficulty organising some of my functions
05:16:51 <duko> I have separate files with functions that perform the same task
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05:17:17 <duko> I'd like to give these functions the same name in each file
05:17:52 <duko> but since each file defines functions in the same namespace I can't do that
05:18:12 <duko> what is the best way to deal with this?
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05:18:52 <duko> for example, I have an `accounts` file and an `activities`
05:19:22 <duko> and both of these have something like a `to-json` and a `get-all` function
05:20:32 <Bike> usually you would separate out the functions into a separate file, and have each other file load that one (or specify that the first file is to be loaded first, with asdf or such)
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05:25:17 <duko> if `to-json` from one file is loaded by each of these files how would `to-json` perform a different operation for `accounts` vs `activities`?
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05:26:27 <Bike> usually you'd have it perform the same operation?  functional programming and stuff.
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05:27:55 <duko> each file currently has its own function because the definition of the function is specific to the operations in that file
05:28:29 <duko> and account is not converted to json in the same way that an activity is
05:28:38 <Bike> Generic functions?
05:29:31 <duko> I think that might be the suggestion I was hoping to get
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05:30:52 <duko> I seem to have a mental block that prevents me from thinking to use generic functions
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05:36:08 <duko> Bike: thank you
05:36:13 <duko> I am going to sleep now
05:36:17 <duko> good night everyone
05:36:23 <duko> \q
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07:46:11 <nan_`> hello, how do you switch to source/definition for a text at point? slime doc
07:46:12 <nan_`> 		talks about XREF browser and since it is not included default i
07:46:12 <nan_`> 		thought there might be something else.
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07:46:41 <nan_`> damn copy paste didn't work ><
07:47:00 <antifuchs> nan_`: meta-dot (M-.) jumps to the definition of the symbol at point
07:47:09 <antifuchs> it should be available in a slime with no contribs loaded
07:47:31 <antifuchs> but you should probably load slime with slime-fancy
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07:48:05 <nan_`> antifuchs: thanks, looks like it was clashing with evil keybindings
07:48:15 <antifuchs> slime-xref has the prefix C-c C-w <something> (for who-<action> - calls, macroexpands, etc)
07:48:29 <antifuchs> ah yeah, that might do it
07:49:07 <antifuchs> you can totally redefine some key you want to slime-edit-definition (:
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07:49:37 <antifuchs> (also, note that M-, takes you back to where you came from, as if you were pushing/popping a stack while reading code. invaluable to have that.)
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07:49:57 <nan_`> oh! that is great
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07:51:20 <antifuchs> it really is ((:
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07:51:56 <antifuchs> I have set up something similar with gtags (or any TAGS functionality really), but it doesn't approach the precision of slime's thing (:
07:51:59 <nan_`> looks like evil-mode replaced some slime keys
07:53:17 <Bike> you can do slime-cheat-sheet to see some of the important slime functions to rebind, i think
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08:27:19 <zorkmoid> morning litph world!
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08:34:21 <doesthiswork> if that joke was a developer it would have 50 years of experience but no body of work
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08:54:24 <madmuppet006> Im trying to use a let (let ((sign (if (evenp n) - +))) but I am getting an error reading The function COMMON-LISP-USER::SIGN is undefined. any ideas on what is going on thanks ..
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08:54:51 <nan_> madmuppet006: wasn't it signum?
08:55:16 <nan_> madmuppet006: oh nwm
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08:55:53 <splittist> morning
08:56:23 <madmuppet006> nan_: there was more didnt notice anything to do with signum though
08:57:00 <Bike> madmuppet006: (let ((sign (if (evenp 9) '- '+))) sign) works here.  are you sure it's CL:LET?
08:57:34 <madmuppet006> Bike:Im using slime + emacs + sbcl and the code is as shown
08:57:57 <madmuppet006> ah no quote one mine
08:58:02 <nan_> madmuppet006: i just glanced and saw sign, -, + and undefined, thought you were after the function signum, just ignore that!
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08:58:13 <Bike> Well the code you showed isn't a complete expression.
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09:01:03 <madmuppet006> Bike: its part of a bigger procedure .. Ill post it on pastebin brb
09:02:36 <madmuppet006> http://pastebin.com/JwQXwd2B shows where Im trying to use the let
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09:04:21 <nan_> you are defining it as a variable but using it as a function, you need labels/flet i think
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09:05:35 <Bike> You need to funcall sign, and also use #'- and #'+ instead of - and +.
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09:05:58 <Bike> You also want "expt" rather than "power"
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09:06:44 <madmuppet006> Bike:thanks I wrote my own expt for learing purposes .. thats why its there
09:07:03 <madmuppet006> Bike: thanks .. thats why etc
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10:03:36 <yawnt> good morning :D
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10:10:18 <yawnt> i wonder if it's possible to take the "all is an object" approach and apply it to lisp
10:10:24 -!- CrazyEddy [~cribbing@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
10:10:29 <yawnt> if yes, has anyone done that.. if no, why would it be a stupid idea?
10:10:59 <yawnt> (i mean something like (+ 1 2) is actually 1.+(2) in imperative like style)
10:11:29 <doesthiswork> I thought it was already done with common lisp
10:12:01 <p_l> yawnt: in a way, everything in lisp is an object
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10:12:07 <p_l> just not a class-based one
10:12:22 <yawnt> p_l: i'm still thinking about prototypes tbh, not classes
10:12:33 <p_l> (so some stuff in core language is not extensible, but you can shadow it with extensible variants for your own code)
10:13:10 <p_l> some implementations also provided extended protocols for some things, like sequences, so you can create objects that work with all sequence-related operations
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10:13:54 <p_l> it requires some fiddling under the hood to add such stuff so it works for everything instead of just the code that uses wrappers
10:14:13 <yawnt> yeah that's what i'm banging my head against
10:14:55 <yawnt> i've only found wrappers so far googling
10:15:01 <yawnt> nothing native in the language
10:15:38 <yawnt> so  i was wondering if anyone had an example :\
10:15:42 <yawnt> thanks anyway
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10:17:27 <holycow> mornin
10:17:37 <yawnt> yo
10:17:38 <holycow> man, recursive functions are brain twisting
10:17:48 <holycow> these are going to take a while to get used to
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10:30:17 <pavelpenev> holycow: I've been playing around with common lisp for two years now, I've _needed_ recursion once :)
10:31:45 <holycow> it strikes me as an amazing way to introduce lots of complexity into software.  i was doing the tutorial hoping i don't have to use them too much.
10:32:17 <pavelpenev> Even in clojure, I've needed it rarely, mostly I used higher order functions(map, filter etc.), and the recursion was hidden.
10:33:12 <pavelpenev> holycow: you do need to understand recursion very well as many things in software are recursive, but actually sitting and writing a recursive function would be rare.
10:33:22 <doesthiswork> I mainly use it for thing like traversing trees, where its really convenient to have a stack.
10:33:34 <holycow> interesting
10:33:53 <holycow> i would imagine if i wanted to write a file manager recursion would probably be important
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11:17:06 <sklr> H4ns: any plans for a berlin lisp meetup between now and the middle of march?
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11:21:12 <H4ns> yes, on the 26th - we're on the last tuesday of the month now.
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11:22:34 <H4ns> sklr: it is also in the lisp user group calendar, http://www.google.com/calendar/embed?src=cG01NWo4a2czMGRubTU0aWIyaWY5ZnVvY2NAZ3JvdXAuY2FsZW5kYXIuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbQ
11:24:49 <sklr> H4ns: great, thanks.  I'm in town for a month, so thought I'd drop by if there's room for another
11:25:56 <H4ns> sklr: sure, you're very welcome.  if you are on twitter, follow @berlinlispers for announcements.  or subscribe to the mailing list, http://netzhansa.com/mailman/listinfo/lisp-berlin
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11:30:50 <sklr> followed -- thanks for the info
11:30:54 <sklr> hopefully see you there next week :)
11:31:09 <H4ns> yeah :)
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12:01:09 <zorkmoid> hm.
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12:01:18 <zorkmoid> does sbcl need a c compiler? i forget..
12:01:52 <fe[nl]ix> it does, for the GC and small amounts of OS glue code
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12:02:02 <zorkmoid> mm..
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12:06:58 <JuanDaugherty> only if you're building from scratch though, right?
12:07:17 <JuanDaugherty> not in everyday use
12:07:36 <stassats> right
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15:13:25 <flip214> stassats: http://slime-tips.tumblr.com/ is more or less dead, right?
15:13:38 <stassats> why do you ask?
15:13:50 <flip214> because there've been no new posts for ~3 months
15:14:07 <flip214> sadly, I enjoyed reading them
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15:24:42 <splittist> You can always read them again - just ration yourself to one a week...
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15:27:41 *Xach* has a few lisp tips in the pipeline!!
15:28:18 <sykopomp> hooray
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15:37:58 <splittist> Xach: did I miss the other shoe dropping on your big announcement?
15:38:31 <splittist> (where 'on' = 'wrt', rather than 'on-on')
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15:43:46 <Xach> about the lisptips?
15:45:38 <splittist> About the xachjob
15:45:55 <splittist> Or am I misremembering
15:47:29 <splittist> Or does that happen next year? Damn this time travel.
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15:47:41 <Xach> No other shoe
15:47:59 <Xach> Although the chances have improved that I will go to ECLM!
15:48:20 <splittist> Shiny!
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16:15:51 <ZombieChicken> I just wantedt to make sure I remembered this all correctly; CL can be compiled into an interpreted-free binary and that CL can be optimzed to run as quickly as an equivelent C program. Are those both correct?
16:16:10 <stassats> correct
16:16:39 <ZombieChicken> and emacs + slime is still considered to be the defacto standard for CL programming?
16:16:46 <stassats> yes
16:17:03 <fe[nl]ix> in the open-source part of it, yes
16:17:37 <ZombieChicken> hrm. I guess I'll have to get used to emacs+viper
16:17:41 <ZombieChicken> thanks for the info
16:19:24 <JuanDaugherty> emacs + slime (alone?)
16:20:00 <JuanDaugherty> emacs lisp is CL now?
16:20:20 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu2.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
16:20:22 <wbooze> no
16:20:24 <stassats> JuanDaugherty: what are you talking about?
16:20:30 <wbooze> it's guile maybe....
16:20:43 <wbooze> so scheme....sortoff.....
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16:21:02 <wbooze> or heading there....
16:21:18 <stassats> ....
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16:22:52 *loke* is reading c.l.l a bit... I must say... WJ is showing signs of serious mental problems. It's one thing to be a troll, but the amount of effort he puts into it... Autism?
16:23:02 <stassats> loke: who cares?
16:23:28 <stassats> kill file and move on
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16:24:33 <ZombieChicken> If I need help with emacs, does anyone have a problem with me asking here? #emacs seems a little childish
16:24:45 <stassats> ZombieChicken: only if it's related to slime
16:24:55 <francogrex> in sbcl (log 7)  for example is 1.9459101 how can I obtain  decimals to have more precision?
16:25:04 <stassats> (log 7d0)
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16:25:22 <ZombieChicken> stassats: ty
16:25:40 <francogrex> stassats: and 100 decimals (to make it more diificult)
16:25:44 <ZombieChicken> is there a better channel to ask emacs questions in other than #emacs that anyone knows of?
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16:26:29 <wbooze> stassats: is that all ?
16:26:58 <wbooze> stassats: is double float precision the most in lisp ?
16:27:35 <wbooze> are big floats implemented yet ?
16:28:07 <loke> francogrex: (log 7d0)
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16:30:34 <stassats> Fare: (asdf:hostname) is wrong on CMUCL
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16:30:47 <francogrex> loke: yes that's what stassats said
16:31:13 <loke> oops
16:31:16 <loke> sorry. missed that
16:31:23 <loke> I'll just go to sleep
16:31:36 <francogrex> is ok, can you incresae the precision?
16:31:52 <loke> francogrex: CLISP can, if I remember correctly
16:31:53 <francogrex> increase the number of decimals?
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16:33:09 <stassats> Fare: asdf/operate exports *asdf-upgrade-already-attempted*, while there's no sign of this symbol anywhere
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16:40:19 <stassats> Fare: it should be #+CMU, not #+CMUCL in asdf:hostname
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16:41:02 <stassats> raw-print-backtrace has the same problem
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16:43:13 <stassats> Fare: and implementation-type has (:cmu :cmucl :cmu), the second cmu seems redundant
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16:47:00 <wbooze> is there a gmp library for lisp ?
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16:50:36 <Fare> stassats, thanks!
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16:51:12 <Fare> stassats: no it's not redundant, it's a hack to have a normalized "long" name as well as a normalized "short" name
16:51:38 masondesu [~textual@216.59.46.254] has joined #lisp
16:52:08 <Fare> stassats, old symbol was removed. Thanks
16:53:17 bitonic [~user@dyn1221-31.wlan.ic.ac.uk] has joined #lisp
16:53:29 <Fare> Xach: any projects wrt buildapp and asdf3 ?
16:53:36 <Xach> Nope.
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16:54:23 <Fare> stassats, pushed as 2.29.3
16:54:33 <Fare> Xach: do you accept patches?
16:54:45 <Xach> Sometimes.
16:54:52 <Fare> what are the constraints here?
16:55:10 -!- loke [~elias@bb115-66-85-121.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
16:55:17 <Fare> asdf3 has an interface for what you're trying to do with TRAVERSE, which has changed since ASDF2 (and wasn't exported by ASDF2)
16:55:48 <Xach> I'm in no rush.
16:56:19 <Xach> I might just rip that stuff out of buildapp.
16:56:30 <Fare> ok
16:57:09 <Fare> there is a slew of quicklisp systems that newly fail because of warnings when the deferred warnings are enabled (the current default in asdf3).
16:57:18 <Fare> I'll contact the respective authors.
16:57:34 <Xach> Please highlight those problems when suggesting implementations adopt 2.2x.
16:58:23 <Xach> I think it's confusing to have a minor version that is actually a different program.
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16:59:15 <Fare> it's supposed to be compatible, and incompatibilities are being worked on. Also, since the name is part of the interface (ugh), it can't be renamed without introducing gratuitous incompatibility.
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17:00:28 <Xach> By "worked on", do you mean third-party programs that are broken by the changes are being "fixed"? Or that ASDF 3 is reducing the number of third-party programs that are being broken by its changes?
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17:00:55 <Fare> both, depending.
17:00:57 dnolen [~user@pool-71-183-189-14.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp
17:01:01 <Fare> I'm trying hard for the latter
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17:01:38 <Fare> but sometimes the package is so broken that it actually depends on a bug in ASDF2.
17:01:59 <Fare> and then I'm pushing hard for it to be fixed.
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17:02:36 *Xach* will wait and see
17:02:43 <Fare> wise attitude.
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17:03:57 <Fare> in any case, we're mostly there, and there's no going back.
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17:04:30 <Fare> (though who knows, there was a recent fork of ASDF1 -- ASDlite, so I can imagine someone forking ASDF2. Just not me.)
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17:09:58 -!- spacefrogg is now known as spacefrogg^
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17:20:13 <stassats> Fare: more exports: http://paste.lisp.org/display/135547
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17:20:58 <Fare> thanks a lot.
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17:29:16 <Fare> stassats, fix pushed in 2.29.4
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17:31:45 <stassats> it'd be easier to track them, if not for slots and restarts
17:31:55 <Fare> yup
17:32:12 <Fare> If you can contribute your testing code to the asdf test suite, that'd be great.
17:32:23 <stassats> it's partially manual
17:32:53 <Fare> there ought to be a One True CL test infrastructure that has stuff for that.
17:33:27 <stassats> http://paste.lisp.org/display/135547#1
17:33:38 <stassats> then put results into a file, then M-x rgrep
17:34:15 <stassats> should be ASDF/COMMON-LISP
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17:47:47 <Fare> ;; Error while compiling /home/tunes/cl/asdf/build/fasls/ccl-1.9-f96-linux-x64/root/home/tunes/cl/slime/swank-backend.lisp:
17:47:47 <Fare> ;;   File #P"/home/tunes/cl/asdf/build/fasls/ccl-1.9-f96-linux-x64/root/home/tunes/cl/slime/swank-backend.lisp" not found
17:48:02 <Fare> (load-system :swank) (swank-loader:init) doesn't work so well.
17:48:31 <stassats> i don't use asdf to load swank
17:49:28 <stassats> besides, isn't (swank-loader:init) called by (load-system :swank)?
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17:59:18 <gendl> Hi, is there an option to ql:quickload to force a compile (that is, to make it delete old .fasl's before compiling?)
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17:59:47 <gendl> and/or, to make it re-compile and re-load the system, even if the system is already detected to be loaded
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18:04:29 <Xach> gendl: no
18:04:47 <Xach> gendl: for that you must use asdf directly, or some other way
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18:05:57 <gendl> xach: roger. thank you.
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18:26:54 *sykopomp* wonders why the lisp tip says :key (lambda (element) (funcall fun element)) instead of :key fun
18:28:25 *sykopomp* assumes there's no difference, but may have missed something.
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18:32:23 <Xach> hmm
18:32:35 <Xach> evolution from an earlier form, mostly
18:32:38 <Xach> i'll update it
18:33:44 <stassats> Xach: is there a lisp-tip about (handler-case (values 1 2) (:no-error (a b) (+ a b)))?
18:34:06 <Xach> stassats: no! what is that all about?
18:34:21 <stassats> what do you mean?
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18:34:52 <Xach> It seems straightforward, but I don't immediately see how or when you might use it.
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18:36:50 <Xach> Do you mean the :no-error clause, or a multiple-value twist, or something else?
18:36:50 <stassats> (handler-case (do-something) (error () report-error) (:no-error (result) do-something-with-the-result))
18:36:54 <Xach> ahh
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18:37:16 <Xach> i am familiar with the :no-error bit but have not tipped about it.
18:37:44 <Xach> i haven't actually used it in code, too. do you have some real code that uses it i could check out as a good example?
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18:38:05 *Xach* readies his grepping fingers
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18:38:59 <nan_> I saw this in lisptips.com and i understand what is going on except the . part, why do we need . here? (let (#'42) (+ . #'5))
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18:39:54 <Xach> nan_: the comments have some exposition
18:40:25 <stassats> Xach: nothing public, but it goes something like (handler-case (compile-script script) (error (c) (setf (error-message x) (princ-to-string c))) (:no-error (compiled) fill-an-object-with-the-result and persist it))
18:40:56 <Xach> nan_: (x . y) is the syntax for a literal cons; the cons (x . nil) is the same as the list (x), and (x . (y)) is the same as (x y)
18:41:05 <stassats> so the idea is that compile-script can signal a compilation error, but i don't want to also catch fill-an-object-with-the-result-and-persist errors if i just used them inside the body
18:41:27 <Xach> stassats: thanks
18:41:39 <stassats> like (handler-case (let ((result (compile-script script))) (handler-result result)) (error () ...))
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18:43:01 <stassats> could be used (let ((result (handler-case ...))) (when result ...)), but doesn't work if result is NIL, so it'd be (let* (error (result (handler-case ... (error () (setf error t) ...))))
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18:44:25 <nan_> Xach i think i got it, #'42 expands to (function 42) and (+ #'5) expands to (+ (function 5)), extra parens, so . splices it!
18:44:41 <stassats> Xach: slime has (handler-case (frame-var-value frame index) (t (condition) (declare (ignore condition)) (values nil nil)) (:no-error (value) (values value t)))
18:44:52 <Xach> nan_: yeah
18:45:03 <stassats> the second value means success or not
18:45:26 <stassats> (declare (ignore condition)) is superfluous, though
18:45:59 <Xach> interesting
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18:48:14 <stassats> that could be a tip too, by the way
18:48:36 <stassats> (that (handler-case form (error (x) (declare (ignore x)))) is the same as (handler-case form (error ())))
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18:50:22 <stassats> and another tip that it's not really a good idea to catch errors with T. ERROR or SERIOUS-CONDITION should are better
18:50:42 <Xach> What are some of the pitfalls of T?
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18:51:51 <stassats> (handler-case (warn 'style-warning) (t (c) c)) => #<STYLE-WARNING {10238B6D23}>
18:53:18 <stassats> or (signal 'communicate-up-the-stack)
18:53:26 <Xach> thanks, good examples
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18:53:54 <stassats> and (ignore-errors . forms) is equivalent to: (handler-case (progn . forms) (error (condition) (values nil condition)))
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18:57:48 <stassats> not sure if a tip, but i find it interesting that (warn c) == (signal c), but (error c) == (progn (signal c) (invoke-debugger c))
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18:59:53 <Xach> so many tips, so little time
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19:00:14 *stassats* can't say the same about slime-tips...
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19:01:43 *Xach* has been using lispworks a lot in the past week and was sad that some nice things are not implemented
19:02:52 <redline6561> Oh yeah. How are you liking the new gig Xach?
19:04:31 <stassats> having to use lispworks, i wouldn't like that! unless the pay check is particularly fat
19:04:45 <sykopomp> writing lisp is not enough
19:04:59 <stassats> smug smug weenies
19:05:04 <redline6561> hehe
19:05:13 <Bike> stassats: i thought warn was like signal + write the warning to *error-output*
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19:06:04 <stassats> Bike: right, but that doesn't have the same effect as invoke-debugger
19:06:11 <Bike> well yeah
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19:33:16 <samebchase> Hello everyone, I wrote a static site-generator: https://bitbucket.org/samebchase/millipode/src
19:33:39 <stassats> a static site, how quaint
19:33:47 <samebchase> I'm using it to generate my site http://samebchase.com/
19:34:22 <samebchase> Comments on the site-generator will be much appreciated
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19:34:58 <samebchase> Things are still pretty experimental now, lots left to do to clean things up.
19:35:26 <stassats> you don't need htm in: (cl-who:with-html-output-to-string (*standard-output* nil :indent t :prologue t) (cl-who:htm ...))
19:35:36 <stassats> i.e., at the top level of with-html-output-to-string
19:36:01 <stassats> and it'd be probably a good idea to use-package cl-who
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19:36:18 <stassats> or at least use who:htm instead, of cl-who
19:36:55 <stassats> and (cl-who:htm (loop for string in (rest string-list) do (cl-who:htm (:p (cl-who:esc string))))), the loop doesn't need to be wrapped with cl-who:htm
19:37:05 <samebchase> okay, so that there is less of <package>:<fn>
19:37:23 <samebchase> stassats: uh huh
19:37:31 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu1.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
19:37:36 <stassats>  (format nil "~a.~a" (pathname-name file) (pathname-type file)) => (file-namestring file)
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19:38:01 <samebchase> aaah!
19:38:05 <stassats> samebchase: yes, if you use something a lot, it makes sense to use it, or import it
19:38:26 <samebchase> file-namestring, nice
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19:39:38 <stassats> and you'd probably still want to escape it, even if for href, but would need to use who:escape-string
19:39:48 <samebchase> I knew that pathname concatenation was silly
19:39:58 <stassats> i.e. (:a href (escape-string (file-namestring file)) (esc (pathname-name file)))
19:40:21 <samebchase> hmm
19:40:30 <stassats> :href
19:40:58 <stassats> (prog1 (format t "Generating the index.~%") ...) doesn't make much sense, since format t returns NIL
19:41:48 <stassats> and PATHNAME in (pathname (merge-pathnames webpage-dir #P"index.html")) is superfluous
19:41:50 <samebchase> I was trying to figure out a way that prevent alex.:w-f-to-strings from printing everything
19:42:05 <samebchase> sorry
19:42:18 <stassats> prog1 won't stop it
19:42:45 <stassats> perhaps by printing you mean returning, but the return value doesn't matter
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19:42:48 <samebchase> alexandria:write-string-into-file returns a string
19:42:58 <samebchase> yes
19:43:31 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
19:43:40 <samebchase> what's a smarter way of 'suppressing' write-string-into-file's return value?
19:43:52 <pjb> (values)
19:44:00 <stassats> a) NIL b) (values) c) not caring
19:44:04 <pjb> (progn (alexandria:write-string-into-file ) (values))
19:44:24 <stassats> progn is superfluous here
19:44:25 <samebchase> of course!
19:44:52 <samebchase> I mean, "of course" to using values
19:45:40 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
19:47:04 <stassats> (loop for file in (remove-if-not (alexandria:curry #'generated-webpage-p webpage-dir) (ls content-dir)) when (content-post-newerp file webpage-dir 2) collect file) => (loop for file in (ls content-dir) when (and (generated-webpage-p webpage-dir file) (content-post-newerp file webpage-dir 2)) collect file)
19:47:09 <samebchase> Also want to mention that using :if-file-exists :overwrite was doing weird stuff
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19:47:27 <stassats> you probably want :supersede
19:47:39 <samebchase> yes, that is what I did
19:47:42 <stassats> (format nil "~a" pathspec) => (namestring pathspec)
19:48:44 <samebchase> much nicer
19:48:47 <stassats>  (merge-pathnames webpage-dir (pathname (format nil "~a~a" (pathname-name post-text-file) ".html"))) => (make-pathname :name (pathname-name post-text-file) :type "html" :defaults webpage-dir)
19:50:34 <stassats> (mapcar #'delete-file (list-orphaned-pages content-dir webpage-dir)), you're probably not interested in the return values of delete-file, so use either MAPC, or (map nil #'delete-file ...)
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19:50:59 <samebchase> yes, it was weird getting a list of nils
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19:53:26 <stassats> ok, that's all for protips
19:53:50 <samebchase> major, major refactoring to do
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19:54:27 <samebchase> stassats: thanks a lot! :-)
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19:56:58 <samebchase> I find Lisp code to be more readable than the equivalent idiomatic <scripting_lang> code
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19:57:42 <samebchase> it is a little bit more verbose, but a lot more readable, I feel
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19:59:16 <antifuchs> same here (:
19:59:17 <stassats> japanese is less verbose than english, yet i find it harder to understand
20:00:13 <stassats> probably because i know english, so s/english/italian/
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20:04:55 <samebchase> The scripting languages seem to be designed primarily for developer productivity (i.e. to get something written fast)
20:05:27 <CXMU> It is quicker to write something in PHP than it is to write it in C++, that is for certain.
20:07:10 <samebchase> I find it easier to process words, rather than a terse glob of operators and operands
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20:10:18 <samebchase> Good night everyone,
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20:26:36 <nyef> Does anyone here have experience using sb-cover?
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20:30:17 <stassats> nyef: i do, some
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20:32:21 <nyef> I've got two questions about the reported coverage. First, define-condition forms all seem to be reported as not being executed, even when I build from scratch and run code that creates and handles the conditions. What's up with that?
20:33:31 <stassats> does it work with defclass?
20:33:33 <CXMU> For awhile I thought this was ##islam and I was trying to figure out why people were talking about programming here ..
20:33:46 <nyef> Second, postmodern:defprepared forms (a macro that expands to a toplevel LET with a DEFUN in the body) always shows up as executed, even when I know full well that the function hasn't been called.
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20:34:22 <stassats> i haven't used sb-cover much, other than when working on slime-cover
20:34:40 <nyef> defclass forms aren't listed as covered, no.
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20:35:39 <stassats> perhaps a problem with top-level forms, for example, who-calls xref doesn't work with top-level forms
20:35:45 <nyef> I'm using SBCL 1.0.57, but there haven't been any changes to contrib/sb-cover/ since then (checked with git log).
20:35:50 <nyef> Hrm.
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20:38:33 <nyef> Okay, thanks.
20:39:28 <nyef> I'm thinking to see if restructuring the expansion of postmodern:defprepared improves the coverage reporting there, at least.
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20:41:42 <jsnell> so the general mental model is that if a non-atomic subform of your toplevel form ends up compiled by the real compiler, it'll be considered for code coverage
20:42:07 <jsnell> so something that gets fop-compiled would be excluded
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20:42:36 <jsnell> as would probably anything using a code-walker that doesn't preserve identity
20:43:00 <jsnell> what does a call to defprepared look like, and what does it expand to?
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20:45:30 <fe[nl]ix> jsnell: a defun wrapped in a let
20:46:01 <jsnell> yes, yes. that says nothing
20:46:55 <jsnell> since the relevant part for this is how the form actually maps to the defun wrapped in a let, not that it is one
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20:47:15 <nyef> (postmodern:defprepared some-name (:select '* :from 'wherever :where (:= 'some-field '$1))) => (let ((statement-id (next-statement-id))(query "SELECT * FROM WHEREVER WHERE SOME_FIELD = $1")) (defun some-name (&rest params) (ensure-prepared *database* statement-id query)...)) there's a bit more body, but I can't work it out by just looking at it, and it doesn't seem relevant.
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20:48:05 <nyef> Oh, and the string value for QUERY involves a bunch of parens, similarly not relevant.
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20:48:23 <nyef> I figure that I can collapse the entire thing down to a DEFUN that uses LOAD-TIME-VALUE if necessary.
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20:50:54 <jsnell> hm. I would really not have expected that to get instrumented
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20:51:54 <nyef> The toplevel LET involves a DEFUN, so it's complex enough to involve the normal compiler rather than the fopcompiler.
20:53:15 <jsnell> right, but none of the original source is ending up in the actually-compiled code
20:53:45 <nyef> ... The function name is... but, yeah.
20:54:24 <jsnell> right, needs to basically be a cons that gets treated as code (no source location tracking for atoms)
20:54:50 <nyef> I'll point out that define-alien-routine also gets instrumented somehow, but none of my test cases actually exercise the generated functions so I don't know how well it works.
20:55:33 <nyef> Maybe there's a bit of cleverness at least at toplevel for knowing "this is a macro that expanded to this code"?
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20:56:18 <jsnell> I don't know if that qualifies as cleverness rather than being broken
20:56:36 <nyef> That'd make the entire expanded form (and all subforms) correspond to the macro form in the source.
20:57:22 <jsnell> well, what it'd really need to be is be mistaken about what the source is
20:57:51 <jsnell> that is, treating the macro-expanded version as the source code rather than the original
20:58:27 <nyef> I don't think that it's mistaken there, at least.
20:59:04 <nyef> With the :car reporting mode, it highlights just the macro name as the instrumented form.
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21:00:19 <jsnell> sigh. I used to know how the source location code worked :-)
21:01:23 <nyef> I never did.
21:02:08 <nyef> I was glad enough to have gained a partial understanding of IR1 at one point.
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21:04:36 <stassats> you should have written it up somewhere!
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21:06:57 <jsnell> it's self-documenting code, right?
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21:08:00 <nyef> Self-documenting code sounds like an introspective AI system.
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21:12:32 <madnificent> does anyone here have experience connecting to an MSSQL server?  i'd like to know if i should expect issues.
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21:17:42 <nyef> My time of using Lisp and my time of using SQL Server barely overlap, I'm afraid.
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21:21:55 <madnificent> i know that it has its own quirks, which scares me a bit
21:26:43 <madnificent> though it does have an ODBC driver available
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22:27:01 <youlysses> The CADR is the most recent, legally obtainable "complete" lisp-machine OS right?
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22:27:42 <H4ns> i'm not sure if 'recent' is the right word
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22:28:25 <youlysses> H4ns: True, but I don't know what other word found be more appropriate... :-P
22:28:47 <H4ns> youlysses: there is no recent lisp machine, and no recent lisp machine operating system
22:29:13 <H4ns> youlysses: cadr is the only complete open source system, for whatever complete can mean.
22:29:42 <drewc> Movitz? ... ah wait, "complete" .. nm
22:29:57 <nyef> Not that there aren't more recent systems, but, as drewc says, "complete" is an issue.
22:30:02 kcj_ [~casey@122-60-59-140.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp
22:30:18 <drewc> Genera for x86-64? can that be "legally" obtained?
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22:30:57 <youlysses> drewc: I think it can, or at-least at some point it could, but the license is a couple thousand iirc.
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22:31:12 <H4ns> genera for x86-64 is not a product
22:31:14 -!- Defluo [~Defluo@unaffiliated/defluo] has quit [K-Lined]
22:31:37 <youlysses> H4ns: Ah true, my mind skipped over that bit.
22:31:57 <puchacz> hi, is there any example how to parse output of swank::inspect-object ?
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22:32:50 <H4ns> i have this dec miata with licensed opengenera which i would like to get rid of
22:33:07 <youlysses> At-least there seems to be an emulator for CADR and generally a bunch of technical documentation on lisp-machines and there implementation in-general out there. :-P
22:33:59 <nyef> Sure, and it's not like you couldn
22:34:14 <nyef> 't try to put together a "complete" environment yourself out of open-source bits and pieces.
22:34:30 <nyef> Starting, of course, with a Linux kernel running SBCL.
22:34:42 <drewc> nyef: exactly
22:35:05 <youlysses> nyef: What practically write a whole lisp-machine userland...? :-I
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22:36:49 <H4ns> youlysses: when starting with one of the classic lisp machines, you'll practically have to write the "whole lisp-machine userland" yourself anyway
22:36:56 -!- Nohai [~No@1.158.170.35] has quit [K-Lined]
22:37:09 <H4ns> youlysses: people generally underestimate how much the computer world has changed in the last 20 years.
22:37:52 <nyef> Why not assess things and see what's available and what's missing from a "whole lisp-machine userland" perspective?
22:37:58 <H4ns> right.
22:38:49 <nyef> There's already an X window manager or three, a web browser... And what do you need beyond that?
22:38:51 <H4ns> basically, what is needed is a wide system interface to whatever kernel hosts the lisp.  if that is linux, much of is provided by /proc and posix.
22:38:58 *drewc* nods
22:39:08 <youlysses> H4ns: Well I'm not expecting a whole DE or anything on CADR or the like, but there's still a *lot* of work above the "kernel level" I'd assume, just to get a decent environment to build up from.
22:39:42 <H4ns> youlysses: i'm sceptical as to whether cadr (or symbolics, for that matter), are all that decent.
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22:40:04 <youlysses> nyef: That's kind-of against the "everything in lisp" point of a lisp-machine OS. :-P
22:40:18 <nyef> There's phemlock or climacs if you need an editor...
22:40:21 -!- Nohai [~No@101.172.25.12] has quit [K-Lined]
22:40:25 <H4ns> ha
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22:41:29 <youlysses> H4ns: Oh, I'm sure they probably haven't held up well, if that's what you were saying. :-P
22:41:33 <nyef> If you want to be a complete purist, of course, you'll need to write your own VLSI design software, so that you can design your own CPUs...
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22:42:02 <H4ns> youlysses: i'm only kind of bitter, please ignore me :)
22:42:41 <H4ns> youlysses: as much as i'd like to have, say, a machine like my mac which ran lisp from the bottom to the top, as realistic i am to see that i can't have it.
22:42:44 <youlysses> H4ns: I'm young and over-enthusiastic about a technolgies I've
22:42:55 <youlysses> only read about, so the same could be said here.. :-)
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22:43:54 <H4ns> youlysses: start with linux (or another kernel) and sbcl instead of init.  much fun can be had that way.
22:44:19 <nyef> youlysses: I was like that once. Then I spent a goodly amount of time writing a piece of software called "nevermore". About fifteen minutes before it got to booting to a lisp prompt, I realized that emacs+sbcl+slime got me most of the benefits of the environment I was attempting to resurrect, and probably more...
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22:46:31 <youlysses> H4ns: I'm actually quite happy with the system I have now, though if I ever go through with such a project, I'd assume it be via a VM and writing the system from scratch. I'd have to go as pure as possible, or like nyef kind-of just said, if not, what's the point. :-P
22:47:22 <H4ns> youlysses: for me, the point would be to have one environment from driver to application level.  one language, one debugger.
22:47:31 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu1.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
22:47:50 <H4ns> youlysses: the closest you can get is to get genera.  at least that is a complete system.
22:47:59 <H4ns> youlysses: albeit really really old and outdated.
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22:48:45 <nyef> Writing the odd device driver in lisp can be fun, though.
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22:48:50 <Quadrescence> did i miss out on good lisp os discussion?
22:49:03 <nyef> Yes. Yes, you did.
22:49:30 <Quadrescence> :(
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22:50:08 *drewc* just nods
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22:51:33 <nyef> youlysses: You might consider looking at projects such as the TCP/IP driver running over tun/tap (slitch?), Linux filesystems and input devices using FUSE and uinput, and there's something called "CUSE" for character devices that I haven't really looked into, and I have a set of user-mode USB bindings kicking about that someone ported from SB-ALIEN to CFFI...
22:51:57 <youlysses_mbl> Even if General was released freely, wouldn't a lot of code need to thrown out and or replaced?
22:52:07 <youlysses_mbl> Genera
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22:52:38 <nyef> And there are a couple of attempts at writing X servers floating about...
22:53:02 <nyef> (One of which is mine, the other of which apparently works to some extent?)
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23:04:46 *drewc* enjoys FUSE quite a bit ... sshfs, s3fs ... mmmmm.
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23:06:22 <nyef> ... LMFS?
23:06:36 <nyef> (Okay, LMFS is freaking INSANE, but that's not the point.)
23:07:00 -!- [SLB] is now known as [SLB]`
23:07:52 <nialo> LMFS?
23:08:05 <nyef> Lisp Machine File System.
23:08:57 <nyef> Some of the meta-data is in SEXPs, there's provision for files of arbitrary byte-widths, and so on.
23:09:45 <nyef> Oh, and you know how the filesystem part of CLHS is completely screwy? LMFS is a good part of why.
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23:53:38 <Quadrescence> did i miss out on more conversation while I chopped up a watermelon
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23:55:30 <nyef> You might've, but I'm fairly sure we're done for now.
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