00:00:47 -!- urandom__ [~user@p54B0EC3E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 00:03:39 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 00:05:12 k0001 [~k0001@host30.190-224-65.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 00:07:45 dim: also, don't forget to change your license while you're at it. 00:08:27 *madnificent* is annoyed by libaries ignoring *print-case* though 00:08:48 does sdl:load-image only support bmp? 00:09:33 -!- p_l [~pl@tsugumi.brage.info] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:09:49 p_l [~pl@tsugumi.brage.info] has joined #lisp 00:10:38 zajn [~zajn@c-67-182-61-90.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:12:18 Corvidium [~cosman246@c-24-56-228-105.customer.broadstripe.net] has joined #lisp 00:13:59 <|3b|> Kenjin: i think it depends on which sdl libs you load 00:14:17 -!- nha [~prefect@koln-5d816d1e.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 00:14:31 |3b|: I'm loading sdl, sdl-gfx, sdl-image 00:14:50 I get "ERROR: LOAD-IMAGE; cannot load file. 'File is not a Windows BMP file'" 00:15:20 Kenjin: |3b| may be correct there. sdi-image should load the usual bmp, gif, jpg, png, pcx etc etc 00:15:31 sdl-image * 00:16:51 <|3b|> can't tell from docs if there is a separate function for the sdl-image version or not 00:17:13 I'll take a better look 00:17:32 It seems its hitting the method that calls SDL-Load-BMP-RW 00:17:42 instead of the one that cases on image-type 00:18:26 <|3b|> are you sure the C libs are being found? 00:18:52 I compiled everything from homebrew 00:19:10 have you tried (sdl-image:image-init-p :png) for example? to see i png support is initialised? 00:19:38 it looks like it is 00:19:48 bitonic [~user@b018a13d.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 00:20:06 Kenjin: note that i haven't used the sdl libraries for some time now 00:20:15 things may have changed 00:20:27 -!- akovalenko [~user@95.73.125.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:20:34 mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-96-240-138-223.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:21:25 thanks. I'll have a better look 00:21:31 gotta jet ;) 00:22:26 -!- Kenjin [~kenjin@bl16-72-198.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:22:51 -!- wakeup_ [~wakeup@xdsl-89-0-65-186.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 00:25:59 -!- phserr [~phserrrr@189-71-124-21.user.veloxzone.com.br] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:27:50 -!- worstadmin [~worst@174.141.213.51] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:29:23 edgar-rft [~GOD@HSI-KBW-149-172-63-75.hsi13.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 00:31:08 -!- sabalaba [~Adium@199-188-193-9.PUBLIC.monkeybrains.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:34:24 -!- k0001 [~k0001@host30.190-224-65.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 00:36:01 k0001 [~k0001@host166.186-109-106.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 00:36:21 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-84-44-155-142.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:37:04 stardiviner [~stardivin@122.236.243.203] has joined #lisp 00:46:23 aynik [~aynik@unaffiliated/aynik] has joined #lisp 00:48:49 -!- skanev [~aquarius@78.128.55.20] has quit [Quit: skanev] 00:51:23 youlysses [~user@75-132-7-80.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 00:52:11 -!- zolk3ri [~Zol1ka@unaffiliated/zolk3ri] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:53:14 -!- bitonic [~user@b018a13d.bb.sky.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:53:17 Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-72-66-99-183.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:55:15 Kenjin [~kenjin@bl19-234-180.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 01:00:35 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:01:01 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 01:03:23 drichards [~user@c-98-232-26-203.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:08:39 tiripamwe [~tiripamwe@41.221.159.83] has joined #lisp 01:09:43 -!- tiripamwe [~tiripamwe@41.221.159.83] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:19:12 yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.169] has joined #lisp 01:23:59 -!- youlysses [~user@75-132-7-80.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:24:28 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 01:26:37 -!- nowhereman_ [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-12-134.w86-213.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:27:05 nowhereman_ [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-12-134.w86-213.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 01:29:18 -!- AeroNotix [~xeno@abod158.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: Uploading hax.....] 01:33:32 This is really weird. (sdl-image:image-init-p :png) returns :png but (sdl-image:load-image "img.png") fails with "ERROR: LOAD-IMAGE; cannot load file. 'File is not a Windows BMP file'" 01:35:15 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:35:49 LiamH [~none@rrcs-24-43-226-3.west.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:44:04 Bike [~Glossina@63-229-134-7.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 01:47:38 sabalaba [~Adium@c-24-5-86-251.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:47:42 holycow [~holycow@pdpc/supporter/bronze/holycow] has joined #lisp 01:49:49 -!- neufeld_AFK is now known as neufeld 01:51:04 Kenjin: have you tried asking on #lispgames? maybe someone there can help? 01:51:36 -!- neufeld is now known as neufeld_AFK 01:51:54 I'll give it a try. thanks 01:52:09 -!- nowhereman_ [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-12-134.w86-213.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:52:39 nowhereman_ [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-12-134.w86-213.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 02:01:08 I think I got it 02:01:21 Since I'm not using sdl binaries 02:01:30 Kenjin: cool 02:01:36 I need to add to (:darwin ...) 02:01:46 -!- spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:02:12 like so: (:darwin (:or (:framework "SDL_image") (:default "libSDL_image"))) 02:02:22 added the :default there 02:02:32 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:02:50 hmmm... 02:04:33 maybe the source needs a patch, does it? if that is the name to be expected under Darwin? 02:05:44 I was following this line of thought http://code.google.com/p/lispbuilder/issues/detail?id=12 02:05:59 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 02:06:07 similarly lispbuilder 02:06:08 ups 02:06:12 http://code.google.com/p/lispbuilder/issues/detail?id=24 02:08:08 looks like it has been encountered before. 02:08:09 at least it's working 02:08:24 gtg to lunch ... 02:10:33 -!- axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-88-224.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:10:45 k0001_ [~k0001@host104.200-117-36.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 02:12:20 cya 02:12:50 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@123.208.98.166] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 02:13:14 -!- aynik [~aynik@unaffiliated/aynik] has quit [Quit: become the problem of your problems] 02:14:08 -!- k0001 [~k0001@host166.186-109-106.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 02:18:28 -!- Kenjin [~kenjin@bl19-234-180.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:19:16 -!- linse [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1177917310.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: zzzz] 02:21:30 linse [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1177917310.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 02:24:06 -!- __class__ [~class@99-105-56-217.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:25:26 _class_ [~class@99-105-56-217.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:25:28 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:26:29 rbarraud__ [~rbarraud@125-239-32-133.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 02:30:41 -!- _class_ is now known as __class__ 02:33:28 benzrf [b8999a8d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.184.153.154.141] has joined #lisp 02:33:32 Hello! 02:33:51 I don't know lisp very well, so the answer to my question might just be 'you don't get it'... 02:34:10 But from what I've read, it looks like you can use lambda directly as the first item in an expression. 02:34:15 buuut 02:34:28 if you set a variable to the return value of lambda... 02:34:35 you cannot directly use it as the first thing in it 02:34:40 what's with that? 02:36:40 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 02:37:12 -!- robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 02:38:51 an example? i don't quite get what you mean. (i am also new to lisp btw) 02:39:28 benzrf: the first element of a function call form must be a function name, not a variable name. ((lambda ...) ...) is a special case in the syntax. 02:39:40 benzrf: you probably want funcall. 02:39:56 I'm not asking for a specific example, I was just wondering 02:39:57 :p 02:40:24 damn, it seems like common lisp at least is full of special cases and stuff 02:40:41 most people pretend that special case doesn't exist. 02:40:55 I think one or two macros depend on it, but that's it. 02:43:58 DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@120.158.238.225] has joined #lisp 02:44:18 bananagram [~bot@c-98-198-236-112.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:46:05 -!- Joreji [~thomas@87-188.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:46:56 benzrf: all languages (big ones) have many special cases, but you won't find many languages worth its salt *after* when you learn it 02:47:57 idk, common lisp just seems to have a whole lot 02:48:10 most of my experience is with java :s 02:48:23 benzrf: seems like you get it. don't treat ((lambda ...) ...) as something you want to use. treat it as something that happens to be possible. 02:48:23 and the main special case I can think of is letting + work on strings 02:48:29 okay 02:50:09 benzrf: it may be true. perhaps we have more special cases. it's perhaps similar to how java has: foo?bar:baz; as a conditional. it's there, it may not really fit, but sometimes it's handy (only in the case of the lambda, it's not as often handy). 02:50:21 okay. 02:50:31 well I think of that kind of thing as more like an additional feature 02:50:58 whereas having a function work where a variable containing its return value doesn't seems like... 02:51:01 well, a special case 02:51:13 it's not, there are just multiple namespaces. 02:51:56 ...I don't get that 02:51:56 :( 02:52:11 if that peculiarity really disturbs you that much, CL might not be a good fit for you. 02:52:26 francisl [~anonymous@69.157.143.178] has joined #lisp 02:52:44 benzrf: lisp-1 variants don't have a separate space for variables and functions. what you said would work there. however, in a function definition, it becomes harder (defun foo (bar) (bar ...)) <- i prefer to be able to call out to the function bar, not the variable. if i want the variable, i'll do (funcall bar ...) instead of (bar ...) it's a preference, you may prefer something else :) 02:52:58 it's a convenience thing. (defun foo (list) (list list)) works because in (list list) the first "list" looks it up in the function namespace and the second in the variable namespace. 02:53:44 it doesn't disturb me that much, I just didn't have much to do, so I figured I'd ask 02:58:20 -!- benzrf [b8999a8d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.184.153.154.141] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 02:58:48 as far as i understand, you expect ((lambda () '+) 5 6) work and print 11? 02:59:44 benzrf: You'd need to consider how assignment would work. 03:00:04 In a purely functional language, having a variable be a zero-argument function is reasonable. 03:00:42 he be gone 03:01:05 psykotron [~psykotron@c-67-166-148-128.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:02:06 but i am surprised how easily you got what his problem was, i guess this is asked quite often. 03:02:56 Sometimes I think it would have been better to be case-sensitive and use that to distinguish procedures and variables. 03:03:01 or i failed to understand >< 03:03:39 it feels a tad odd. it's a special case. it's something you recognise. 03:04:16 -!- Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-72-66-99-183.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:04:33 Zhivago: yeah, we all make mistakes (though at this point in time, i wouldn't mind a case-sensitive lisp with the fuctions of the cl package downcased. 03:06:42 Zhivago: i am sure cl have many problems/errors in design but i've lost all my respect in both CS and programming community until i read materials from CL designers, i just love their attitude 03:07:07 This is just a matter of style. 03:07:27 Which part of the CL designer attitude do you like most? 03:07:51 -!- francisl [~anonymous@69.157.143.178] has quit [Quit: francisl] 03:08:15 Zhivago: no it is not. you use the symbols for much more than that. what about classes? what about other objects you keep track of in a separate space? there are various ways in which the symbols can be used. and as you can access and use them as symbols, it makes sense to split it up. 03:08:35 CL doesn't separate the symbols. 03:08:59 X-Scale [email@2001:470:1f14:135b::2] has joined #lisp 03:09:00 it doesn't. but for your own things, you use a separate space for attaching whatever you deem necessary to a symbol. 03:09:16 Most of KentP' materials have that affect on me, they are working to remove barriers in front of the programmer, quite the opposite 03:09:44 madnificent: So, it is just a patter of style, then? 03:09:47 quite the opposite on other languages 03:09:52 i'm not against casing per-se, but using it to separate variables from functions (or from whatever else) doesn't seem like a clean design to me. at least not in an extensible language. (perhaps in Java, or C#, it's different) 03:10:30 As opposed to using gramatical position ... 03:11:16 hey, it works for natural language. 03:11:31 Zhivago: perhaps i'm not clear here. will you make a separate gramatical position for all other things you mimic too? if you create a way to define methods which can be called from an external system (like javascript), will you prefix it with a magical symbol? 03:11:31 normanrichards [~normanric@70.114.215.220] has joined #lisp 03:11:46 Zhivago: for example, they use wordings like... [] {} will never be used by language, users can rely on it and make their constructions. 03:11:49 Zhivago: hell, why not use strings instead of symbols, if we're down that lane. 03:12:07 Hmm. Prefix with magical symbol, wrap with magical grammar ... it's so hard to choose. 03:13:23 Zhivago: my point is that using symbols, you create a space (like the one for variables, classes, functions) yourself. why would the language itself not use that same abstraction? why would it try to be different from your own code? 03:13:53 Your point is wrong, as far as CL is concerned. Foo is foo, regardless of how you use it. 03:14:03 Unless your point is that CL gets that wrong. 03:14:12 -!- quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 03:14:25 Zhivago: i think my point is so easy to grasp, that you're overlooking it. because what you said has nothing to do with it :) 03:14:40 quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 03:14:53 So, what function space does using symbols in CL produce? 03:16:03 wait, you're so far away that we'll either have to start over, or i'm not going to try explaining it. have your pick. 03:16:17 carlo5m [~carlo5m@c-71-198-252-62.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:16:17 Incoherence is your frequent defense. :) 03:17:14 *madnificent* takes that as no. 03:17:56 Zhivago: "Sometimes I think it would have been better to be case-sensitive and 03:17:56 use that to distinguish procedures and variables" I don't remember where but i've read somewhere that some coding conventions/styles created because languages had some certain namespace problems which doesn't exist in CL, it was quite a read, let me find it 03:19:02 nan: At this point it might be useful to consider how exporting a symbol works in CL. 03:20:51 -!- leoncamel [~leoncamel@124.126.219.23] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:24:02 -!- quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:24:02 ahungry [~null@99-40-10-216.lightspeed.livnmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:24:57 -!- sabalaba [~Adium@c-24-5-86-251.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:25:53 -!- pjb [~t@AMontsouris-651-1-169-140.w90-46.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 03:30:27 -!- coderarinux [~coderarit@ip98-166-82-125.hr.hr.cox.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 03:32:26 androcles [~jeff@ip70-187-173-84.oc.oc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 03:33:17 Hermit [~arm@unaffiliated/grpala] has joined #lisp 03:34:01 -!- androcles [~jeff@ip70-187-173-84.oc.oc.cox.net] has quit [Client Quit] 03:34:53 nan: If you want to compare with other languages, (list list) would become fun['list'](var['list']) by the most direct translation. 03:35:29 nan: The important point to note is that there's only one identifying symbol involved. 03:35:45 androcles [~jeff@ip70-187-173-84.oc.oc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 03:35:56 -!- androcles [~jeff@ip70-187-173-84.oc.oc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:38:47 quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 03:40:44 -!- foreignFunction [~niksaak@94.27.88.229] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:41:22 teggi [~teggi@113.173.30.36] has joined #lisp 03:42:50 Zhivago: i know how it works but i don't see the problem, let me read your conversion with madnificent, just a minute 03:46:21 nan_: Zhivago is playing on the fact that exporting a symbol exports all meanings. he likely dislikes that. 03:46:38 -!- findiggle [~kirkwood@50-194-56-154-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:47:49 It isn't a problem. It just means that the names aren't in separate spaces. 03:48:26 Zhivago: the symbols are in one space, what they point to is separated into multiple spaces. a symbol can connect to more than one thing. 03:48:48 -!- prip_ [~foo@host172-135-dynamic.6-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Excess Flood] 03:48:53 Just as I demonstrated with fun['list'] and var['list']. 03:49:44 Which means that if you deal with the symbol, those are indistinguishable -- since it is the same symbol. 03:49:46 prip_ [~foo@host172-135-dynamic.6-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 03:50:11 Zhivago: why would that ever make sense? 03:50:26 -!- Bike [~Glossina@63-229-134-7.ptld.qwest.net] has left #lisp 03:50:38 Imagine that you wanted to pass the name of something. 03:50:39 if you pass the function, you pass (function name) if you pass the variable you pass name, if you pass the name, you pass 'name 03:50:55 What is 'name the name of? 03:51:01 you are searching for problems that don't exist 03:51:18 Just pointing out the consequences of this design choice. 03:51:30 If you bother to read, I did not say that it is a problem. 03:51:40 So, what is 'name the name of? :) 03:52:17 Zhivago: it /is/ a symbol, which may be the name of a variable, a function, a widget, a little preyer to god 03:52:48 So, we can't pass the name of a function, because functions don't have names. There are only names that refer to functions in certain contexts. 03:52:51 Zhivago: i see what you mean but it is not practically a problem is it? i mean when you export a symbol (i guess in this context it is like defpackage :export) you know what you are exporting and it is either value or function or both, all under your control except you got both variable AND function and you want to export only one of them 03:53:13 This is the consequence of not having multiple namespaces. 03:53:14 Zhivago: you CAN pass a name that has a function attached to it. but the function in itself doesn't even have a name. 03:53:34 Yes. You agree that the function doesn't have a name. Thus we cannot pass the name of a function. 03:53:42 Zhivago: also, we /have/ multiple namespaces 03:53:49 Zhivago: the /symbols/ are in one space 03:54:04 No. Packages provide multiple namespaces. 03:54:06 Zhivago: i can pass a name which indicates a function 03:54:20 How can the name indicate a function? 03:54:21 Zhivago: i can do (funcall 'format t "help me please") 03:54:29 Are you going to put magical prefixes on it? 03:54:54 k0001 [~k0001@host203.186-109-110.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 03:55:24 Zhivago: if (defun foo (list) (list list)) works, and list is ONE symbol and means a function in one place and a variable in the other, then how don't we have different spaces for variables and functions? 03:55:49 So, how does the name indicate a function? 03:56:21 -!- LiamH [~none@rrcs-24-43-226-3.west.biz.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:56:35 Zhivago: why would i assume someone will give me the name of a function when i want a function itself? 03:56:41 Zhivago: why would he not give me the function? 03:57:44 You might be interested in doing symbolic processing. 03:57:59 -!- k0001_ [~k0001@host104.200-117-36.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:58:31 Zhivago: you might be interested in learning logical. it helps. a lot. 03:58:45 Where have I committed a logical error? 04:00:01 Zhivago: in the fact that when you're doing symbolic processing you know where to expect a function and where to expect a variable and where you want to do something that has both. that is why macro's tend to operate on symbols, not on the functions to which the symbol points. 04:00:19 I see there is an issue, which i don't know big or small because i quite like the experience but if you solution is casing, please consider another solution. i developed a strong hatred for them. camel case... hungarian notation.. 04:00:29 quite lack* 04:00:58 nan_: really, there is no huge problem or whatever, this is a frustrating illusion. 04:01:17 madnificent: Your argument is that with symbolic processing we should always pass additional context? 04:01:25 when you write a function that concatenates two strings, do you want to know the variable name into which teh strings were put? 04:01:44 Thus instead of foo, I should pass bar foo? And instead of bar foo I should pass woz bar foo? And instead of ... 04:01:45 pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has joined #lisp 04:01:56 would it --perhaps-- be reasonable to expect that the users of your function will pass you strings? or am i being silly here 04:02:17 Not if you want to process symbols. 04:02:31 madnificent: Please avoid retreating into incoherence. 04:02:32 this is a lost cause 04:02:36 enjoy 04:03:18 Entirely predictable. :) 04:03:46 nan: There are plenty of solutions. Packages provide one. 04:04:36 -!- benny [~user@maidenhead3.tunnelr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 04:04:53 nan: Magical prefixes are another. In the end it becomes a matter of taste and composition mechanism. 04:05:52 nan: Within CL the important thing is to understand symbols properly so that you can use them well. 04:06:35 merdom [~ae@198.187.30.190] has joined #lisp 04:06:57 -!- merdom [~ae@198.187.30.190] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:09:21 Bike [~Glossina@63-229-134-7.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 04:10:50 weie [~eie@softbank221078042071.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 04:11:23 sabalaba [~Adium@c-24-5-86-251.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:11:41 Zhivago: thanks! *takes notes* 04:15:12 nan: Good luck. :) 04:19:36 merdom [~ae@198.187.30.190] has joined #lisp 04:20:28 -!- merdom [~ae@198.187.30.190] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:22:58 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-96-240-138-223.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 04:32:12 cfy [~ilisp@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 04:32:33 sodel [~user@S01062cb05d9c7e60.va.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 04:33:06 -!- sodel [~user@S01062cb05d9c7e60.va.shawcable.net] has left #lisp 04:35:15 -!- asciilifeform [~asciilife@pool-108-48-89-59.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:36:30 nhplace.com/kent/PS/ great resource but why he has to use upper case... reading just 2-3 lines takes forever because it is scary! 04:37:31 -!- Hermit [~arm@unaffiliated/grpala] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:38:14 tcr1 [~tcr@84-72-21-32.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 04:38:51 -!- zejedi [~zejedi@108.222.222.199] has quit [] 04:39:02 -!- seangrove [~user@c-71-202-126-17.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:40:06 From the dark ages when terminals had only one case. 04:40:23 seangrove [~user@c-71-202-126-17.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:40:41 -!- milosn [~milosn@user-5AF50134.broadband.tesco.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 04:41:20 milosn [~milosn@user-5AF50134.broadband.tesco.net] has joined #lisp 04:44:50 -!- H4ns [hans@netzhansa.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:44:51 Well, at least something improved in programming in all these years 04:44:51 H4ns [hans@netzhansa.com] has joined #lisp 04:45:08 -!- psykotron [~psykotron@c-67-166-148-128.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has left #lisp 04:45:35 -!- rmathews [~roshan@122.164.34.35] has quit [Quit: ...] 04:46:35 Even then i think it is about getting used to, probably they didn't have our problems with upper case. 04:47:14 Lacking aught else ... 04:47:15 -!- milosn [~milosn@user-5AF50134.broadband.tesco.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:47:44 Although there is evidence that all upper case is harder to read. 04:47:50 bjorkintosh [~bjork@ip68-13-229-200.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 04:47:50 markcox [~user@140.253.50.81] has joined #lisp 04:48:14 -!- bananagram [~bot@c-98-198-236-112.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 04:48:20 Does Thomas Hermann lurk around here? 04:54:53 -!- sabalaba [~Adium@c-24-5-86-251.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:55:16 sabalaba [~Adium@c-24-5-86-251.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:00:23 upper case is the way a FORTRAN program is /supposed/ to look ;-) 05:00:43 markcox: there's a guy named ThomasH, at least. 05:01:24 Bike: Oh ok. It doesn't look like he is on. Thanks for letting me know. 05:03:44 milosn [~milosn@user-5AF50134.broadband.tesco.net] has joined #lisp 05:11:13 -!- Jubb [~ghost@pool-108-28-62-61.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:11:20 -!- __class__ [~class@99-105-56-217.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:11:22 -!- carlo5m [~carlo5m@c-71-198-252-62.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:12:37 cdidd [~cdidd@176.14.158.121] has joined #lisp 05:17:49 svetlyak40wt [~svetlyak4@broadband-95-84-141-55.nationalcablenetworks.ru] has joined #lisp 05:19:36 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@84-72-21-32.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:21:27 __class__ [~class@99-105-56-217.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:22:09 -!- spaceships [~spaceship@host-72-174-137-126.msl-mt.client.bresnan.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:22:17 -!- markcox [~user@140.253.50.81] has left #lisp 05:23:26 _class_ 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[~jtza8@105-236-3-211.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 08:04:14 hi! 08:05:05 pjb: didn't know about that rename-package glitch, will check out how you do it 08:05:10 kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-62-212.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 08:06:47 -!- linse [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1177917310.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: zzzz] 08:10:00 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 08:10:09 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-62-212.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 08:14:40 kennyd [~kennyd@93-141-54-176.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 08:15:34 fsvehla [~fsvehla@178.115.249.100.wireless.dyn.drei.com] has joined #lisp 08:18:24 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-185-82-146.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:19:48 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-141-54-176.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:20:49 -!- spacefrogg^ is now known as spacefrogg 08:25:14 -!- Bike 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agumonkey [~agu@167.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 08:38:38 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-3-211.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:39:09 k0001 [~k0001@host38.186-125-103.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 08:40:38 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-3-211.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 08:42:29 -!- k0001_ [~k0001@host41.181-1-167.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:44:06 spent the whole weekend reading about clojure, somehow not impressed. 08:46:51 I don't think it's meat to impress lispers but to get new ones? 08:46:57 meant, even 08:47:41 dunno.. dunno... 08:48:05 What was the least impressive thing about it? 08:48:13 kmels [~kmels@frbg-5f733fc3.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 08:48:14 -!- svetlyak40wt [~svetlyak4@dhcp-202-66-wifi.yandex.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:49:36 yawnt [~yawnt@net-188-153-96-249.cust.dsl.teletu.it] has joined #lisp 08:51:11 random syntax choices just to not be exactly CL? 08:53:13 I'm having trouble wrapping my head around types. I have a function that takes in a vector "A" of integers < 1e5, so fixnum should be good, but it keeps warning me that the type is in conflict. So is this invalid code: (defun partition (A left right) (declare (type (simple-array fixnum) A)) ....) 08:53:13 08:54:22 impaktor: paste the rest of the function? 08:54:29 Well, you probably want a (*) in there, at least, to make it a vector. 08:54:46 moin 08:54:56 Zhivago: "*" ? 08:54:58 oh, yeah. 08:55:10 (declare (type (simple-array fixnum (*)) A)) ...) 08:55:36 but that's probably not the problem? 08:55:58 It's hard to tell, since the types in conflict are not both mentioned. 08:56:01 http://paste.lisp.org/display/135418 08:56:26 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 08:56:26 initial element nil in an array of fixnums? 08:57:23 A fill pointer in a simple-array? 08:57:39 Zhivago: what dim said, random syntax gibberish, let being just different for no reason, def instead of defun, it is ARC all over again in my book.. 08:57:58 hehe, this is my first array, so go easy. 08:58:04 impaktor: the progns make me cringe. use when, not if when there is no else clause. what do you need the type declarations for? 08:58:04 Seems like I messed everything up? 08:58:10 What about the pure functional aspects? 08:58:20 impaktor: Pretty much. :) 08:58:34 Read about simple-array in the hyperspec. 08:58:38 H4ns: If I don't specify type SBCL complains. 08:59:00 impaktor: if you leave out the :element-type, there will be no complaints 08:59:28 Zhivago: i don't care enough about that, this "it must be pure" wave of programming is silly ... 08:59:29 yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.169] has joined #lisp 08:59:43 impaktor: all type declarations are entirely optional in cl, and you'll not see the benefit of languages with static typing (compile time errors) when you use them. so just don't, unless you know that you need them. 08:59:50 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Excess Flood] 09:00:23 hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has joined #lisp 09:00:23 -!- hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has quit [Changing host] 09:00:23 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 09:00:24 tcr1 [~tcr@84-72-21-32.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 09:00:39 But I didn't have any type declarations at all first, and then SBCL gave me warnings. 09:01:23 impaktor: your make-array was wrong all by itself. 09:01:41 Furthermore, I don't see how the :element-type can give a warning when I evaluate the function definition which doesn't (yet) use the vector with the :element-type declaration. 09:01:50 impaktor: you did not carefully look at the warnings, i'd say 09:02:07 impaktor: it is true that sbcl warns about a type problem, but that is not the root cause of the warning. 09:02:18 impaktor: read the warning carefully when you eval the form.. 09:03:30 impaktor: one, you are using A as a array (aref), but you are also using it as a real in the comparison (<). 09:03:34 impaktor: sbcl infers that A is an array due to the aref, and then it is confused because it sees that you use A as if it was a number 09:04:17 impaktor: sbcls warnings are not always clear, but most of the time, they point to actual problems. 09:05:07 svetlyak40wt [~svetlyak4@2a02:6b8:0:101:b544:704a:8bbe:5905] has joined #lisp 09:06:24 Yeah, some bugs there. Thanks for the help. I'll undoubtedly be back soon with more noob questions. 09:07:01 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:07:10 impaktor: read the message from your compiler carefully, try to infer the code path, and see what might be wonky 09:07:29 and for the love of all parens, don't use progn :-) 09:07:50 hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has joined #lisp 09:07:50 -!- hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has quit [Changing host] 09:07:50 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 09:08:31 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-3-211.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 09:09:12 zorkmoid: So no progn in the (loop for j from 1 to 5 do (progn ...)? 09:09:13 don't use progn? do you imply that all standard operators that want a single expression rather than a "body" have been carefully designed that way? 09:09:39 impaktor: loop ... do has an implicit progn 09:09:50 dim: of course not, in that specific example that impaktor showed only. 09:09:57 ok 09:09:58 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 09:10:00 thanks 09:10:04 So I can just remove it? I'll try it. 09:10:14 I've been wondering about that really (handler-case) 09:10:16 impaktor: yes, check the hyperspec. 09:10:48 dim: most of the time when i want to use progn, i write a macro to contain it. 09:11:07 I'm not sufficently at ease with macros yet it seems 09:11:16 leaning toward using them more, though 09:11:29 dim: a good rule is to try and reduce indentation. 09:11:47 I currently have a strange case to solve that will get into a nice macro when ok 09:12:19 streaming + batching data either from MySQL or from a file, with about the same code, but one works and the other blocks... I have yet to understand 09:12:23 So, I'm doing these assignments for a coursera.org course, so first assignment I bailed out and did in C++, so trying again on this assignment to use lisp. 09:12:38 zorkmoid: indeed. same in all languages 09:13:09 dim: i wouldn't know, last language i learnt was C back in the 80s :-) 09:13:10 too much indentation == anonymous blocks of code that should be given a name, usually that means a function, here it can also mean a macro 09:13:20 ahah 09:13:59 more interested in the concepts that some languages provide, like erlang has some cool stuff.. 09:14:18 I've been doing some erlang 10 years ago, I really did enjoy it 09:14:20 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-185-82-146.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 09:14:44 I think most of the excitement and joy of using it were due to it being my first use of a functionnal (enough) language 09:14:58 interesting, i found its syntax to be quite ... crazy. but how it does concurrency is intersting. 09:16:52 -!- Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 09:17:08 yeah, I've been using lparallel and lparallel.queue to get the concurrency with no data sharing in lisp 09:17:36 zorkmoid: its syntax seems less crazy when you know prolog 09:17:42 but really the main thing about erlang and concurrency is into its System Design docs and the OTP lib 09:17:57 also, I think the meme about the shared-nothing message passing being the only thing about Erlang is waaaaaay off 09:18:04 supervisors, gen_server, gen_fsm and other behaviours 09:18:16 it's the OTP, system, and the whole thing that is actually an operating system in disguise 09:18:20 dim: yeah 09:18:35 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-185-82-146.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:18:37 p_l: sure, still, interesting. 09:18:42 p_l: some work is being done to have Erlang run on bare VM 09:18:53 erlang on kvm without an OS in between 09:19:09 like, boot your full application stack in 10ms 09:19:12 in a way, you could say that Erlang/OTP is to typical CL program as VLM is to SBCL 09:19:20 dim: yeah, but it's on Xen, not KVM :) 09:19:22 VLM? 09:19:29 oh, xen, ok :) 09:19:30 fsvehla [~fsvehla@178.115.251.122.wireless.dyn.drei.com] has joined #lisp 09:19:45 dim: thingie that simulates the symbolics lisp machien 09:19:58 dim: Virtual Lisp Machine, a basically Ivory microcoded in Alpha assembly and with I/O devices replaced with Unix I/O 09:19:58 you'd want to run it on the bare VM because the VM isn't the horribly slow part? :) 09:20:08 includeed in SBCL or something I should look after in Quicklisp (VLM)? 09:20:12 p_l: (or x86_64) 09:20:14 -!- nan_ [~user@178.233.216.230] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:20:19 where can you get the VLM? 09:20:28 oh, sorry. nevermind. 09:20:28 Zhivago: it's about spinning a completely new VM in 10ms when you need it 09:20:28 mikaelj: unlambda.com 09:20:55 dim: it's a Symbolics product... we might get it into abandonware in few years, I guess? 09:20:57 Sounds like a job for fork, really. 09:21:16 Zhivago: does fork() split your computer into two? 09:21:22 p_l: leagally nothing can go into such a state, but brad parker hacked it to run on modern hardware 09:21:25 spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 09:21:35 it's not about starting a new process, it's about spinning a new computer instance 09:21:46 maybe fork() can split your full lisp kernel and image in two in 10ms? 09:21:58 zorkmoid: legally at worst we have to wait 50y since the death of last Symbolics employee 09:22:07 still, you can't fork() and migrate to another host easily 09:22:12 p_l: doubt it actually... 09:22:19 p_l: also, someone bought the assets ... 09:22:23 zorkmoid: the copyright then will run out in at least one place 09:24:11 -!- fsvehla [~fsvehla@178.115.251.122.wireless.dyn.drei.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 09:24:20 Zhivago: main purpose of the "Erlang deployed directly on Xen" is to be able to spinup a new VM on things like EC2 before the request timeouts 09:24:59 fsvehla [~fsvehla@77.117.246.102.wireless.dyn.drei.com] has joined #lisp 09:25:22 (including things like failover) 09:26:30 -!- Strigoides [~owen@60-234-213-126.bitstream.orcon.net.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 09:27:52 Strigoides [~owen@60-234-213-126.bitstream.orcon.net.nz] has joined #lisp 09:33:46 hkBst_ [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 09:34:19 ck_ [~ck@dslb-088-068-133-131.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 09:34:40 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:35:54 -!- svetlyak40wt [~svetlyak4@2a02:6b8:0:101:b544:704a:8bbe:5905] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 09:36:29 svetlyak40wt [~svetlyak4@2a02:6b8:0:101:b544:704a:8bbe:5905] has joined #lisp 09:38:51 -!- fsvehla [~fsvehla@77.117.246.102.wireless.dyn.drei.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:40:46 bitonic [~user@027b5eed.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 09:40:56 -!- hkBst_ [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:41:06 -!- toekutr [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:41:20 fsvehla [~fsvehla@77.116.247.105.wireless.dyn.drei.com] has joined #lisp 09:42:22 nha [~prefect@koln-5d819efe.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 09:42:36 -!- LiamH [~none@rrcs-24-43-226-3.west.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:42:41 p_l: isn't it like 70 plus 90 in the states? 09:42:57 zorkmoid: I said *somewhere* 09:43:23 and even then, assumed use of the travesty that is WTO's copyright treaty 09:43:34 splittist [d4cb4e8a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.212.203.78.138] has joined #lisp 09:43:35 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-5f75ea97.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 09:43:37 -!- theBlackDragon [~dragon@213.219.153.37.adsl.dyn.edpnet.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 09:43:41 morning 09:43:44 p_l: well, in that case, iraq or china and just screw the copyright :-) 09:45:07 been meaning to fix a bug in VLM on x86_64 ... some weirdo crash 09:45:47 hkBst_ [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has joined #lisp 09:45:47 -!- hkBst_ [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has quit [Changing host] 09:45:47 hkBst_ [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 09:46:09 theBlackDragon [~dragon@213.219.153.37.adsl.dyn.edpnet.net] has joined #lisp 09:47:14 joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@086.112-30-64.ftth.swbr.surewest.net] has joined #lisp 09:48:11 -!- Bike [~Glossina@63-229-134-7.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 09:48:35 fsvehla_ [~fsvehla@94.245.240.157] has joined #lisp 09:48:41 -!- fsvehla [~fsvehla@77.116.247.105.wireless.dyn.drei.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:48:41 -!- fsvehla_ is now known as fsvehla 09:48:55 kuzary [~who@gateway/tor-sasl/kuzary] has joined #lisp 09:49:41 xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.169.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 09:49:47 -!- svetlyak40wt [~svetlyak4@2a02:6b8:0:101:b544:704a:8bbe:5905] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:50:09 leoncamel [~leoncamel@124.126.173.78] has joined #lisp 09:50:59 -!- hkBst_ [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:51:14 hkBst_ [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has joined #lisp 09:51:14 -!- hkBst_ [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has quit [Changing host] 09:51:14 hkBst_ [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 09:54:24 -!- skanev [~aquarius@78.128.55.20] has quit [Quit: skanev] 09:54:48 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@84-72-21-32.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:58:20 in more practical terms, I don't know who would be able to sue you for VLM :> 09:58:30 prxq [~mommer@mnhm-590c1490.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 09:59:09 dim: true that :-) 10:02:15 fsvehla_ [~fsvehla@178.115.248.118.wireless.dyn.drei.com] has joined #lisp 10:02:18 do people share their slime configurations? would be fun to look at what people have done to customize slime ... 10:03:02 -!- DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:03:02 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Write error: Broken pipe] 10:03:23 mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.99.220] has joined #lisp 10:04:06 -!- joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@086.112-30-64.ftth.swbr.surewest.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:04:36 -!- fsvehla [~fsvehla@94.245.240.157] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:04:36 -!- fsvehla_ is now known as fsvehla 10:04:58 DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has joined #lisp 10:05:01 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 10:06:55 morphling [~stefan@gssn-4d003e6d.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 10:07:28 -!- edgar-rft [~GOD@HSI-KBW-149-172-63-75.hsi13.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Quit: bleeding] 10:10:15 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-66-190.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 10:10:56 edgar-rft [~GOD@HSI-KBW-149-172-63-75.hsi13.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 10:13:51 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 10:14:08 -!- rbarraud__ [~rbarraud@125-239-32-133.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 10:15:20 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@95.87.94.90] has joined #lisp 10:15:20 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@95.87.94.90] has quit [Changing host] 10:15:20 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 10:15:54 k0001_ [~k0001@host253.200-117-34.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 10:17:42 zorkmoid: you can start dotslime, the slime configuration directory. (Or is there already something hidden in cliki?) 10:17:50 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Client Quit] 10:18:00 splittist: hehe, not enough time :-= 10:18:02 :-) 10:18:25 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@95.87.94.90] has joined #lisp 10:18:25 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@95.87.94.90] has quit [Changing host] 10:18:25 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 10:19:09 -!- k0001 [~k0001@host38.186-125-103.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:20:11 -!- |3b| [foobar@cpe-72-177-66-41.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:21:57 svetlyak40wt [~svetlyak4@dhcp168-20-red2.yandex.net] has joined #lisp 10:22:44 after a throw/catch, can I go back to where the processing was? 10:23:10 -!- svetlyak40wt [~svetlyak4@dhcp168-20-red2.yandex.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:24:10 say (loop for line = (read-line input nil) while line counting line into n when (= 0 (/ n 30000)) (throw 'tag) do (funcall process-fn line) finally (return n)) 10:24:19 -!- fsvehla [~fsvehla@178.115.248.118.wireless.dyn.drei.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 10:24:26 the tag is catched to do once per 30000 lines processing 10:25:02 dim: use conditions for that 10:25:03 can I tell CL to please get back in my loop exactly where it's been stopped once once-per-30000 operation is done/ 10:25:05 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-4d003e6d.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:25:23 so, I'm changing the environment in which the loop happens, right? 10:25:41 svetlyak40wt [~svetlyak4@dhcp168-20-red2.yandex.net] has joined #lisp 10:26:19 (loop while t (let ((stream ...)) (catch 'tag (call-the-loop)) (close stream))) 10:26:40 inandout [~inandout@78-73-106-123-no162.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 10:26:48 can I implement that with conditions and restarts? 10:27:12 morphling [~stefan@gssn-4d003e6d.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 10:27:40 probably but depending on what you want to accomplish there are saner ways 10:28:06 i read that lisp was created for the purpose of AI. i am very interested in knowing more about AI development 10:28:35 if you want to do something every 30000 lines just define a function var, perhaps declared dynamic 10:28:55 minion: tell inandout about PAIP 10:28:56 PAIP: No definition was found in the first 5 lines of http://www.cliki.net/PAIP 10:28:59 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-66-190.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 10:29:05 inandout: if you go back 20-30 years, you'll start to notice why lisp was once the go-to language for AI 10:29:16 or lisps were 10:29:23 (loop for line = .... when (zerop (mod n 30000) (if *line-hook* (funcall *line-hook*))....) 10:29:40 inandout: Look at PAIP http://norvig.com/paip.html 10:29:56 bricot [~user@77.116.56.208.wireless.dyn.drei.com] has joined #lisp 10:30:04 and if you want to close streams regardless how you leave a block look at unwind-protect 10:30:13 istr there was some magic to ease writing defclass forms, especially the slot definitions. Was I dreaming? 10:30:46 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-66-190.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 10:31:24 prxq: you mean the various defclass* macros (which aid writing, but perhaps not reading), or editor support? 10:31:27 in slime i mean. 10:31:36 splittist: editor support 10:33:21 prxq: redshank? http://www.foldr.org/~michaelw/emacs/redshank/ 10:33:28 hm... 10:34:11 -!- spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:34:27 splittist: thatnks 10:35:14 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-66-190.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 10:37:03 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-66-190.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 10:37:04 easye [~user@213.33.70.157] has joined #lisp 10:37:19 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@freiksenet.com] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.2] 10:37:28 freiksenet [~freiksene@freiksenet.com] has joined #lisp 10:38:10 that looks really cool... 10:38:21 i like the condify thingie, i have a old macro that does it for me .. 10:43:58 -!- X-Scale 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#lisp 11:37:20 sabalaba [~Adium@c-24-5-86-251.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:39:05 this WJ person on cll is .. interesting to say the least. 11:39:12 -!- bitonic [~user@027b5eed.bb.sky.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:40:17 i should subscribe, and write silly notes like his. .. that would be fun. 11:44:04 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-splxzactsnieeahd] has joined #lisp 11:44:04 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-splxzactsnieeahd] has quit [Changing host] 11:44:04 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 11:44:05 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:44:52 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-zagstjnfsfnmdjar] has joined #lisp 11:44:52 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-zagstjnfsfnmdjar] has quit [Changing host] 11:44:52 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 11:45:19 fsvehla [~fsvehla@chello084112185050.3.11.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 11:46:44 -!- k0001_ 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[~chaitanya@122.161.228.95] has joined #lisp 14:52:13 tvaalen [~r@unaffiliated/tvaal] has joined #lisp 14:52:31 bitonic [~user@dyn1223-236.wlan.ic.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 14:56:14 -!- Indecipherable [~Indeciphe@41.28.174.122] has quit [Quit: jmIrc destroyed by the OS] 14:57:14 Straylight [~user@bfx.expressionanalysis.com] has joined #lisp 15:00:08 billstclair [~billstcla@p-68-237-140-88.dsl1.rtr.chat.fpma.frpt.net] has joined #lisp 15:00:08 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@p-68-237-140-88.dsl1.rtr.chat.fpma.frpt.net] has quit [Changing host] 15:00:08 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 15:00:15 stopbit [~stopbit@static-108-48-124-82.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:01:48 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@166.137.109.233] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:03:11 deego` [deego@unaffiliated/deego] has joined #lisp 15:04:21 Shozan [~shozan@c-d7b3e253.011-86-73746f30.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 15:04:31 Praise- [~Fat@unaffiliated/praise] has joined #lisp 15:04:43 can I have both &allow-other-keys and &rest parameters? 15:05:39 cross_ [cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net] has joined #lisp 15:05:46 fasta_ [~xchat@xs8.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 15:06:00 mcsontos_ [mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-mrweaadbmqfwfekv] has joined #lisp 15:06:00 -!- kirin` [telex@gateway/shell/anapnea.net/x-bycvgppbjdznazft] has quit [Disconnected by services] 15:06:12 only if &key is also present 15:06:13 loke_ [~elias@bb115-66-85-121.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 15:06:22 kirin` [telex@gateway/shell/anapnea.net/x-qvzgpuzezirigqrs] has joined #lisp 15:06:31 victor_lowther [~victorlow@143.166.116.80] has joined #lisp 15:06:32 DrForr_ [~jgoff@li165-209.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 15:06:45 turbolen1 [~bastian@turbolent.com] has joined #lisp 15:06:45 -!- rmathews [~roshan@122.164.132.217] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 15:06:56 well, you wouldn't need &allow-other-keys without &key anyhow 15:06:57 efftee [efftee@shell.chaostreff-dortmund.de] has joined #lisp 15:06:57 -!- ft [efftee@shell.chaostreff-dortmund.de] has quit [Disconnected by services] 15:07:05 -!- efftee is now known as ft 15:07:06 -!- Spaceghostc2c [Spaceghost@unaffiliated/spaceghostc2c] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:07:06 -!- mcsontos [mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-rqrxzwjjokgwzjiz] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:07:06 -!- rdd [~rdd@c83-250-110-128.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:07:06 -!- cross [cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:07:06 -!- eataix [eataix@unaffiliated/eataix] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:07:06 -!- DrForr [~jgoff@li165-209.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:07:06 -!- Praise [~Fat@unaffiliated/praise] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:07:06 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:07:06 -!- fasta [~xchat@xs8.xs4all.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:07:06 -!- loke [~elias@bb115-66-85-121.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:07:06 -!- mau [~mau@69.85.85.150] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:07:06 -!- mapour [mapour@linux.utu.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:07:06 -!- Amadiro [jonathri@dalvik.ping.uio.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:07:06 -!- froggey [~froggey@unaffiliated/froggey] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:07:06 -!- deego [deego@gateway/shell/ww7.be/x-whzhcijvfyqutyrn] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:07:06 -!- tali713 [~tali713@2001:0:53aa:64c:1c50:7372:b3ee:137e] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:07:06 -!- nightfly [~sage@sagenite.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:07:07 -!- dan64 [dan64@dannyadam.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:07:07 -!- SHODAN [~shozan@c-d7b3e253.011-86-73746f30.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:07:07 eataix [eataix@2400:8900::f03c:91ff:fe70:82ef] has joined #lisp 15:07:07 dan64 [dan64@dannyadam.com] has joined #lisp 15:07:07 -!- turbolent [~bastian@turbolent.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:07:07 mapour [mapour@linux.utu.fi] has joined #lisp 15:07:07 Amadiro [jonathri@dalvik.ping.uio.no] has joined #lisp 15:07:09 -!- eataix [eataix@2400:8900::f03c:91ff:fe70:82ef] has quit [Changing host] 15:07:09 eataix [eataix@unaffiliated/eataix] has joined #lisp 15:07:20 any examples of using timers with iolib? 15:07:22 rmathews [~roshan@122.164.66.214] has joined #lisp 15:07:25 dim: so it's either &rest rest or &rest rest &key &allow-other-keys 15:07:27 mau_ [~mau@69.85.85.150] has joined #lisp 15:07:29 rdd [~rdd@c83-250-110-128.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 15:07:34 nightfly [~sage@sagenite.net] has joined #lisp 15:07:37 i can't get them to work correctly 15:07:41 tali713 [~tali713@2001:0:53aa:64c:1c50:7372:b3ee:137e] has joined #lisp 15:07:47 -!- tvaalen [~r@unaffiliated/tvaal] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:07:50 the difference between the two is that the later ensure an even number of arguments 15:07:52 chaitanya: show us. 15:08:20 -!- Joreji_ [~thomas@87-188.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:08:30 stassats: my problem is that I'm forwarding a call from within a wrapper function, and the protocol I've been using doesn't cope well with unknown &key parameters, and I don't want the tool function to know about them 15:08:44 specifically, the wrapper is adding a positional argument 15:08:52 Spaceghostc2c [Spaceghost@unaffiliated/spaceghostc2c] has joined #lisp 15:08:57 there's also :allow-other-keys 15:08:59 so I think that positional argument must be made into a key argument and then I'll just rejoice 15:09:37 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-66-190.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:09:48 -!- Gullip [~Gullip@116.Red-83-33-83.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Gullip] 15:09:50 basically: (defun map-push-queue (queue map-row-fn &rest initial-args) (prog1 (apply map-row-fn (append initial-args (list (lambda (row) (lq:push-queue row queue))))) (lq:push-queue :end-of-data queue)) 15:10:26 tvaalen [~r@67.217.170.35] has joined #lisp 15:10:40 so turning that (lambda ()) arg into a :process-row-fn key argument should turn things into working state 15:11:15 rmathews_ [~roshan@122.164.22.241] has joined #lisp 15:11:15 (apply map-row-fn :process-row-fn (lambda ()) initial-args)? 15:11:35 -!- techlife [techlife@112.249.91.29] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:11:41 -!- rmathews [~roshan@122.164.66.214] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:11:41 -!- rmathews_ is now known as rmathews 15:11:47 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-66-190.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:11:56 froggey [~froggey@unaffiliated/froggey] has joined #lisp 15:12:08 findiggle [~kirkwood@50-194-56-154-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 15:12:22 adelgado [~TomSawyer@65.23.61.98.nw.nuvox.net] has joined #lisp 15:12:26 -!- kirin` [telex@gateway/shell/anapnea.net/x-qvzgpuzezirigqrs] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:13:01 -!- kubatyszko [~kubatyszk@softbank218115049016.bbtec.net] has quit [Quit: kubatyszko] 15:13:07 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:13:13 -!- DrForr_ is now known as DrForr 15:13:22 kirin` [telex@gateway/shell/anapnea.net/x-ywbpjkygyhlnqciv] has joined #lisp 15:13:43 zorkmoid: http://paste.lisp.org/display/135423 15:14:59 Corvidium [~cosman246@c-24-56-228-105.customer.broadstripe.net] has joined #lisp 15:15:09 -!- ck_ [~ck@dslb-088-068-133-131.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:15:35 ck_ [~ck@dslb-088-068-133-131.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 15:16:55 chaitanya: the timeout is in seconds 15:17:00 is that on OSX ? 15:17:08 yeah 15:17:11 sbcl on osx 15:17:26 yeah the :process-row-fn idea works fine 15:18:13 stassats: map-row-fn takes the initial-args, not the process-row-fn 15:18:23 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 15:18:54 we call map-row-fn which will call process-row-fn for each row it reads, and we provide that function so that it fills our queue 15:19:05 streaming --> queuing with retry batch --> importing 15:19:13 -!- kirin` [telex@gateway/shell/anapnea.net/x-ywbpjkygyhlnqciv] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 15:20:30 kirin` [telex@gateway/shell/anapnea.net/x-ftxnbxlnnvfgtfqf] has joined #lisp 15:20:34 -!- Praise- is now known as Praise 15:20:36 -!- Corvidium [~cosman246@c-24-56-228-105.customer.broadstripe.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:21:05 techlife [techlife@112.249.91.29] has joined #lisp 15:21:06 -!- techlife [techlife@112.249.91.29] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 15:21:59 techlife [techlife@112.249.91.29] has joined #lisp 15:22:00 -!- techlife [techlife@112.249.91.29] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 15:22:31 techlife [techlife@112.249.91.29] has joined #lisp 15:22:31 -!- techlife [techlife@112.249.91.29] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 15:23:01 techlife [techlife@112.249.91.29] has joined #lisp 15:23:02 -!- techlife [techlife@112.249.91.29] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 15:23:33 techlife [techlife@112.249.91.29] has joined #lisp 15:23:34 -!- techlife [techlife@112.249.91.29] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 15:24:03 techlife [techlife@112.249.91.29] has joined #lisp 15:24:08 -!- svetlyak40wt [~svetlyak4@2a02:6b8:0:101:707e:b9cf:b050:7de8] has quit [Read error: Network is unreachable] 15:24:39 svetlyak40wt [~svetlyak4@2a02:6b8:0:101:707e:b9cf:b050:7de8] has joined #lisp 15:25:55 skanev__ [~aquarius@78-83-94-119.spectrumnet.bg] has joined #lisp 15:26:26 -!- kirin` [telex@gateway/shell/anapnea.net/x-ftxnbxlnnvfgtfqf] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:26:31 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 15:27:07 zolk3ri [~zolk3ri@unaffiliated/zolk3ri] has joined #lisp 15:27:16 kirin` [telex@gateway/shell/anapnea.net/x-oxabjblalztgmmzr] has joined #lisp 15:27:20 -!- bitonic [~user@dyn1223-236.wlan.ic.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:29:20 -!- skanev_ [~aquarius@78-83-94-119.spectrumnet.bg] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:30:22 bitonic [~user@dyn1223-236.wlan.ic.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 15:30:24 Indecipherable [~Indeciphe@41.30.155.219] has joined #lisp 15:31:17 chaitanya: what OSX version ? 15:32:47 -!- kirin` [telex@gateway/shell/anapnea.net/x-oxabjblalztgmmzr] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:33:46 kirin` [telex@gateway/shell/anapnea.net/x-bajfxcpaakpncqer] has joined #lisp 15:36:48 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-66-190.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 15:37:40 -!- Indecipherable [~Indeciphe@41.30.155.219] has quit [Quit: used jmIrc] 15:38:22 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-66-190.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:39:37 -!- kirin` [telex@gateway/shell/anapnea.net/x-bajfxcpaakpncqer] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:40:51 -!- k0001_ [~k0001@host116.190-136-198.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping 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joined #lisp 16:01:53 zajn [~zajn@c-67-182-61-90.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:04:30 -!- zajn [~zajn@c-67-182-61-90.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:04:46 Thra11_ [~thrall@87.115.20.211] has joined #lisp 16:05:29 -!- dnolen [~user@cpe-74-64-61-245.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:06:00 -!- mcsontos_ [mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-mrweaadbmqfwfekv] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:06:15 mcsontos [mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-gazxcpzcqdpeyfsl] has joined #lisp 16:07:35 benny [~user@maidenhead3.tunnelr.com] has joined #lisp 16:07:51 -!- Thra11 [~thrall@60.144.125.91.dyn.plus.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:07:57 -!- Onii-san [~Casstango@2604:2880::67c0:651b] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:09:06 -!- em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:09:18 merdom [~ae@198.187.30.190] has joined #lisp 16:09:34 -!- merdom [~ae@198.187.30.190] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:09:49 -!- linse [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1177917310.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: zzzz] 16:10:30 Onii-san [~Casstango@2604:2880::67c0:651b] has joined #lisp 16:10:37 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 16:11:22 inandout [~inandout@78-73-106-123-no162.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 16:11:57 joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@086.112-30-64.ftth.swbr.surewest.net] has joined #lisp 16:13:20 fe[nl]ix: 10.7.4 16:13:52 fe[nl]ix: apart from the misinterpretation of timeout, is my code correct? 16:14:05 -!- EvilTosha [~eviltosha@isa1.alpha-pc.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:14:08 also, if timeout is seconds, can i pass it a float value? 16:14:18 -!- DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:14:36 -!- skanev__ [~aquarius@78-83-94-119.spectrumnet.bg] has quit [Quit: skanev__] 16:15:03 (sorry for the late response) 16:15:04 EvilTosha [~eviltosha@isa1.alpha-pc.com] has joined #lisp 16:16:22 chaitanya: it's correct, and yes you can pass a float 16:16:49 DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has joined #lisp 16:16:54 cfy [~ilisp@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 16:16:57 there's (obviously) a problem with OSX's kqueue, but I don't have access to an OSX machine for debugging 16:17:06 works for me on linux 1.1.4 sbcl 16:17:50 OSX is very strict and often returns EINVAL when unused fields are not set to zero 16:17:57 that's my best guess 16:18:08 chaitanya_ [~chaitanya@122.161.228.95] has joined #lisp 16:18:27 -!- chaitanya_ [~chaitanya@122.161.228.95] has left #lisp 16:18:56 cafaro [~tman@37-251-16-95.FTTH.ispfabriek.nl] has joined #lisp 16:18:57 -!- cafaro [~tman@37-251-16-95.FTTH.ispfabriek.nl] has quit [Changing host] 16:18:57 cafaro [~tman@unaffiliated/cafaro] has joined #lisp 16:19:13 somebody should totally donate a mac to fe[nl]ix 16:20:06 fe[nl]ix: hmm 16:20:28 CatMtKing [~CatMtKing@138.23.59.162] has joined #lisp 16:20:54 i can give you the complete backtrace if it helps 16:21:19 yeah, sure 16:24:07 drmeister [~drmeister@wirelessNAT188.wireless.temple.edu] has joined #lisp 16:24:15 `fogus [~fogus@freedom.d-a-s.com] has joined #lisp 16:24:50 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@wirelessNAT188.wireless.temple.edu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:25:02 drmeister [~drmeister@wirelessNAT188.wireless.temple.edu] has joined #lisp 16:25:04 fe[nl]ix: http://paste.lisp.org/display/135423#2 16:25:04 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 16:25:22 -!- fsvehla [~fsvehla@chello084112185050.3.11.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Quit: fsvehla] 16:25:23 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:25:23 let me know if you need anything else 16:26:06 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:26:41 an OSX machine would be most helpful 16:27:22 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 16:27:40 -!- inandout [~inandout@78-73-106-123-no162.tbcn.telia.com] has left #lisp 16:27:47 chebastian [~chebastia@c-d875e255.015-51-7673741.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 16:28:17 normanrichards [~normanric@rrcs-108-178-120-144.sw.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:29:08 lemme see if i can set up an ssh tunnel for you 16:29:50 -!- hkBst__ [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 16:30:48 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@wirelessNAT188.wireless.temple.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:30:55 fe[nl]ix: will that work? 16:31:46 chaitanya: I don't have time right now, first try to debug it yourself 16:32:02 ok 16:32:14 asdf/x-grovel keeps regrovelling files, i think i know why: it saves the result in the source directory, and when loaded with different implementations, they conflict/get rebuilt 16:32:24 didn't seem to happen with an older asdf 16:32:34 chaitanya: see the backtrace, frame number 2 ? the second argument is 2.9415771970994734d18 16:32:42 that's much too high for a timeout 16:33:02 that value gets computed in event-dispatch 16:33:06 what's left to figure is whom to blame, asdf for breaking compatibility, or cffi-grovel not keeping up 16:33:29 chaitanya: try to find out why it's that large 16:33:43 ok.. thanks for the hint 16:33:46 stassats`: iolib doesn't use cffi-grovel 16:33:51 will check 16:33:58 fe[nl]ix: that's why i said x-grovel 16:34:05 fe[nl]ix: but the issue is present in both 16:34:18 what's the problem exactly ? 16:34:38 fe[nl]ix: what would be a reasonable timeout value in frame 2? 16:34:45 ahh sorry 16:34:50 ignore 16:34:53 fe[nl]ix: recompiling/regrovelling an already compiled and not modified in the mean-time files 16:35:21 doesn't happen here 16:35:29 -!- ehu [~ehu@31.137.227.165] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:35:43 see my description on what i think happens 16:36:17 -!- ck_ [~ck@dslb-088-068-133-131.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:36:33 I'm using the latest HEAD of ASDF, CFFI, libfixposix and iolib 16:36:33 -!- zolk3ri [~zolk3ri@unaffiliated/zolk3ri] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 16:37:08 -!- sweet_kid [having@irc.upasna.in] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:37:32 start ccl: compile, restart and compile --- no recompiling; then start sbcl, compile; start ccl again, load and it recompiles 16:37:49 hmm 16:37:50 -!- deego` [deego@unaffiliated/deego] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:37:58 apparently because it started saving the .c and the binary in the source tree 16:38:12 not in sbcl-1.1.3.15-7f4bf06-linux-x64/... 16:38:40 can't reproduce 16:38:57 can you reproduce saving in the source tree? 16:39:04 i mean observe 16:39:21 sweet_kid [having@irc.upasna.in] has joined #lisp 16:39:28 i'm using asdf binary locations compatibility mode, so it may be due to it 16:39:35 -!- anonus [anonymous@2a01:7e00::f03c:91ff:fedf:2cc7] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:39:37 possibly 16:39:47 *stassats`* sighs 16:41:05 I think it's time that Faré removed that thing 16:41:20 well, i like configuring my lisps from lisp 16:41:25 -!- cfy [~ilisp@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:41:29 but the constant breakage is annoying 16:41:34 damn. it seems that none of the Quicklisp available CSV parsers are going to be able to do the job here. 16:42:12 -!- daimrod [~daimrod@sbrk.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:42:23 \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ is apparently confusing in the middle of a quoted field 16:42:33 and indeed, not using asdf:enable-asdf-binary-locations-compatibility solves the problem 16:43:26 if there's another way to make compilation output to go to a different directory, and which doesn't involve config files, i'd be happy to use 16:43:28 it 16:44:59 dim: not even fare-csv? 16:45:02 -!- [SLB]` is now known as [SLB] 16:45:04 i'll ask Fare to add it/tell if there already exists one 16:45:23 -!- dim [~dim@orion.naquadah.org] has left #lisp 16:45:40 dim [~dim@orion.naquadah.org] has joined #lisp 16:45:48 daimrod [~daimrod@sbrk.org] has joined #lisp 16:45:58 fare-csv fails later in the same file 16:46:12 pjb parser seems to be ok, but is slow here 16:46:23 I should just fix cl-csv maybe 16:46:24 dim-csv to the rescue 16:46:40 well I know that I will need more than "csv" anyway 16:46:51 so I will have to write some more flexible parsers 16:46:54 dim-dwim 16:47:03 it's called pgloader 16:47:46 answer_42 [~answer_42@gateway/tor-sasl/answer42/x-66983568] has joined #lisp 16:48:35 e.g. csv with non quoted fields containing newlines and a trailing field separator 16:49:55 no quoting, but newlines are escaped when appearing in-fields 16:50:15 fe[nl]ix: (isys:get-monotonic-time) => 1.0424905338528209d18 16:50:16 -!- loke_ is now known as loke 16:50:21 is this expected? 16:50:31 no 16:52:53 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-66-190.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:53:41 -!- Demosthenex [~Demosthen@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:55:17 S11001001 [~sirian@fsf/member/S11001001] has joined #lisp 16:57:38 ok is "\\\"" the proper way to write the string that contains the 2 characters backslash and quote? 16:57:55 andytoshi [~username@gateway/tor-sasl/andytoshi] has joined #lisp 16:58:05 isys:get-monotonic-time returns a value in this range in my system 16:58:32 this time: (isys:get-monotonic-time) => 4.052831754409556d18 17:00:08 nan_ [~user@178.233.216.230] has joined #lisp 17:01:09 (setf asdf/configuration::*user-cache* *fasl-dir*) seems to work 17:01:55 dim: obviously 17:02:20 I'm sure of nothing when I don't understand where bugs come from 17:02:26 thx :) 17:02:52 fe[nl]ix: not sure if there's any relation at all, but get-internal-real-time sometimes errors out on SBCL-1.1.3 on a freshly booted 64bit linux system. 17:03:07 probably not 17:03:38 ok 17:03:59 i think i'm the only one using asdf:enable-asdf-binary-locations-compatibility 17:04:26 chaitanya: evaluate (- (- (isys:get-monotonic-time) (progn (sleep 5) (isys:get-monotonic-time)))) 17:06:12 fe[nl]ix: 4.78489421545472d15 17:06:43 it looks like isys:timespec is not defined on my system 17:06:52 impressive 17:07:10 (describe 'isys:timespec) 17:07:16 IOLIB.SYSCALLS:TIMESPEC 17:07:16 [symbol] 17:07:20 a mere 15 orders of magnitude larger :D 17:07:21 that's it 17:07:30 14 17:07:38 :-) 17:08:20 -!- przl [~przlrkt@46.231.183.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:08:25 fe[nl]ix: shouldn't isys:timespec be defined? 17:09:08 so here's what i have till now: 17:09:13 -!- kuzary [~who@gateway/tor-sasl/kuzary] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:09:15 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:09:17 (cffi:foreign-type-size 'isys:timespec) => 16 here 17:09:18 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-170-197.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 17:09:20 (isys::clock-get-time (isys::host-get-clock-service isys::system-clock)) => 616925189682313673, 2819 17:09:26 -!- victor_lowther [~victorlow@143.166.116.80] has quit [Quit: Leaving IRC - dircproxy 1.2.0] 17:10:05 (cffi:foreign-type-size 'isys:timespec) => 16 here too 17:10:28 anyways: the first value returned by isys::clock-get-time seems to be a large random value 17:10:36 -!- mvilleneuve_ [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:10:38 of course, cl:describe isn't aware of the CFFI type namespace 17:10:50 this time: (isys::clock-get-time (isys::host-get-clock-service isys::system-clock)) => 1813483261368810016,2819 17:11:13 fe[nl]ix: oh yeah, didn't realize this was a cffi foreign type 17:11:49 and i believe that is why (isys:get-monotic-time) is returning this extremely weird value 17:11:57 ASDF could not load sb-posix because Error while trying to load definition for system sb-posix from pathname /home/stas/lisp/impl/sbcl/contrib/sb-posix/sb-posix.asd: Component :ASDF/DEFSYSTEM not found, required by # 17:12:00 fascinating 17:12:01 -!- spacefrogg is now known as spacefrogg^ 17:12:06 chaitanya: what version of iolib are you using ? 17:12:56 the version i got from quicklisp 17:12:58 0.7.3 17:13:12 is it an old version? 17:13:21 kuzary [~who@gateway/tor-sasl/kuzary] has joined #lisp 17:13:29 make build/asdf.lisp didn't appear to work, rm build/asdf.lisp; make build/asdf.lisp helped 17:13:52 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 17:15:20 lemoinem [~swoog@72.53.112.90] has joined #lisp 17:15:31 looks like the makefile rule doesn't depend on asdf.asd, 17:15:45 cpape [~user@cpape.eu] has joined #lisp 17:17:47 chaitanya: you should try IOlib from git 17:18:02 fe[nl]ix: you should make a release! 17:18:21 fe[nl]ix: will check -- any dependencies that i need to pick from git? 17:18:53 stassats`: I can't because of CFFI 17:19:08 do a cffi release as well, even better! 17:19:16 chaitanya: you also need ASDF, CFFI and libfixposix from git 17:19:53 alright 17:20:30 fe[nl]ix: one more thing i wanted to know -- does iolib support file streams like it supports socket streams? 17:20:32 ok this csv has quotes as #\", escape quotes as #\\#\", and contains the sequence \" in a place where it does not mean "escape quote", but I have no way to tell cl-csv that I can escape the escape quote sequence 17:21:04 i mean, i know that i can make posix calls via iolib and work directly with fds 17:21:06 stassats`: I can't because of the additions LiamH made to the type system, which I don't fully understand 17:21:20 stassats`: and it seems there still are bugs 17:21:22 but is there a higher level support for (non-blocking) file streams? 17:21:57 fe[nl]ix: can you at least merge this: https://github.com/cffi/cffi/pull/20 17:23:20 -!- yawnt [~yawnt@net-188-153-96-249.cust.dsl.teletu.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:23:42 stassats`: I'll look at it later 17:23:50 good, thanks 17:24:08 stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-013-105.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 17:24:31 but i can guarantee that it works! 17:25:16 -!- 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[~Defluo@unaffiliated/defluo] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com] 17:49:16 LiamH [~none@rrcs-24-43-226-3.west.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:49:45 Gullip [~Gullip@116.Red-83-33-83.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 17:49:51 -!- Thra11_ [~thrall@87.115.20.211] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:51:12 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:51:41 yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.169] has joined #lisp 17:56:31 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.214] has joined #lisp 17:58:52 -!- doomlord [~doomlod@host86-171-15-248.range86-171.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:58:59 -!- chaitanya [~chaitanya@122.161.228.95] has quit [Quit: chaitanya] 17:59:42 -!- fe[nl]ix [~quassel@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:00:26 -!- spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:02:14 -!- Thra11 [~thrall@46.208.82.133] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:02:28 Thra11 [~thrall@46.208.82.133] has joined #lisp 18:02:41 fe[nl]ix [~quassel@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 18:07:35 jasom [~aidenn@ip70-191-80-19.sb.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 18:08:59 chaitanya [~chaitanya@122.161.228.95] has joined #lisp 18:09:13 zajn [~zajn@c-67-182-61-90.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:10:30 eldariof [~CLD@pppoe-209-106-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has joined #lisp 18:10:41 -!- fe[nl]ix [~quassel@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:11:34 -!- sabalaba [~Adium@c-24-5-86-251.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:11:53 -!- Thra11 [~thrall@46.208.82.133] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 18:12:46 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-66-190.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 18:13:18 splittist [bc3f1563@gateway/web/freenode/ip.188.63.21.99] has joined #lisp 18:15:54 fe[nl]ix [~quassel@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 18:16:28 doomlord [~doomlod@host86-171-15-248.range86-171.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 18:17:23 -!- fe[nl]ix [~quassel@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:18:44 fe[nl]ix [~quassel@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 18:18:57 axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-88-224.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:19:23 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:19:40 -!- fe[nl]ix [~quassel@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:20:47 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 18:21:46 Thra11 [~thrall@46.208.82.133] has joined #lisp 18:24:43 fe[nl]ix [~quassel@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 18:30:23 Sgeo [~Sgeo@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 18:30:40 This is a bit SBCL specific/inspired, I guess, but: 18:30:46 ASau [~user@176.4.17.213] has joined #lisp 18:31:05 Are there CL compilers into machine code where the source code for the compiler doesn't contain the machine code? 18:31:19 I remember Wikipedia says that to compile CMUCL you need CMUCL. Why is that? 18:31:24 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-66-190.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:31:25 Or at least, you did and that's why SBCL split 18:31:40 Sgeo: you need cmucl to compile cmucl because cmucl isn't written in portable common lisp 18:31:48 Sgeo: or at least at the time of the split 18:32:06 -!- browndawg [~browndawg@117.201.85.156] has left #lisp 18:32:09 one of the goals of sbcl was to be compilable by any conformant common lisp implementation 18:32:14 clhs COMPILE 18:32:15 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for COMPILE. 18:32:25 nope! :D 18:34:11 or: ECL is written in C, non? and C is not "machine code"? 18:34:16 Sgeo: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bootstrapping_(compilers) 18:34:33 *drewc* has just woken up and need coffee before he starts making sense to even himself 18:34:45 jasom, I want to write a language wehre stuff needs to be trusting trusted into the compiler 18:34:49 In order for it to work 18:34:57 Sgeo: I can't parse that sentence 18:35:07 yeah that made no damn sense 18:35:22 http://cm.bell-labs.com/who/ken/trust.html 18:35:40 Basically, the source code of the compiler wouldn't contain all the information needed 18:35:51 There's information hidden in the compiled result 18:36:05 -!- teggi [~teggi@113.173.30.36] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:36:12 Sgeo: I'm familiar with that article; ultimately if you don't trust your compiler, you need to verify the binary by hand, which is often non-feasible. 18:36:54 agumonkey [~agu@167.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 18:37:02 To illustrate my concept: 18:37:15 This is a compiler for my language, written in my language. Let's say it outputs C code. 18:37:16 ;,[;,]+; 18:37:23 so for the most part you just trust your compiler; though certain high-reliability software does binary verification; the short version is 1: disable any optimizations that reorder source-lines, 2: attribute every word in the .text to a source line and 3: hand-verify that each part of the .text does what the source claims 18:37:24 That's it 18:37:43 ehu [~ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 18:37:45 wait ... if the compiler passes all the tests so we can say it is "ANSI CL" ... and you program in ANSI CL ... is the compiler not trusted? 18:38:27 drewc: yes, what if on the exact specific input "(+ 3 11)" it runs shellcode? unless that exact input was tested, you don't know that 18:38:34 drewc: depends on use 18:38:43 foreignFunction [~niksaak@94.27.89.133] has joined #lisp 18:38:53 ansi cl is vague enough\ 18:39:14 dnolen [aa95640a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.170.149.100.10] has joined #lisp 18:39:50 ok .. so take 30 years reading every line of SBCL ... then I trust a 30 year old version of SBCL if my reading was correct? 18:39:55 brown` [user@nat/google/x-ktnveayemzarviun] has joined #lisp 18:40:21 drewc: nope, because you needed to compile SBCL with a CL compiler, and you need to trust *that* compiler too; read the paper Sgeo linked 18:40:26 -!- brown` is now known as reb` 18:41:50 jasom: is that the KMP paper that I read like 10 years ago? If it is, I have already read it ... and what is more important ... Can I read the source code for my CPU? my Bus? my ATA? WiFi? 18:42:16 or, Windows, MacOSX ? 18:42:58 drewc: the point of the article is that reading the source-code is insufficient for complete trust. 18:43:11 ah it is not the paper I remeber ... but I have read that before 18:43:40 jasom: everything is insufficient for complete trust ... that is the nature of things, imo. 18:43:52 heads or tails ... still one coin ;) 18:44:35 Sgeo: almost nobody writes complicated software in assembly, so you are stuck with having to trust a compiler. Inasmuch as SBCL can be compiled with compilers other than SBCL, you have some benefit over cmucl there though. 18:45:02 sdemarre [~serge@122.75-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 18:46:46 jasom, that's great. But I want something where embedded stuff into the compiled binary that's not in the source is fundamentally necessary 18:47:07 zeroish [~zeroish@135.207.174.50] has joined #lisp 18:47:17 Sgeo: then do what Ken did in the article you linked 18:47:28 better write your own assembler too. 18:47:38 archonix [~unknown@78.90.30.16] has joined #lisp 18:47:53 pkhuong: writing your own assembler is fairly trivial though; I've written ones in machine code before. 18:48:04 -!- zeroish [~zeroish@135.207.174.50] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:48:31 zeroish [~zeroish@135.207.174.50] has joined #lisp 18:49:46 -!- yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.169] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:49:52 killerboy [~mateusz@217.17.38.43] has joined #lisp 18:50:32 I'd much rather code in a simple macro assembler than code an assembler though (: 18:50:48 Sgeo: what does that have to do with trust in everyone at anytime who worked on the compiler? Or did you want to trust that the compiler is 'correct'? or what exactly? 18:50:57 pkhuong: 100% agreed! :) 18:51:21 drewc, I want to use the Trusting Trust idea of having information in the binary that's not in the source as a fundamental thing 18:52:01 I need to think about whether my current language spec has the consequences I want 18:52:08 Sgeo: 1) Why 2) What does that have to do with lisp? 18:52:10 ok ... and since that is not all all related to lisp is any way ... what do you want from Lisp itself? 18:52:18 hmmm... most of the practical 'trusted' compiler stuff was related to quality, not safety, of generated code (mainly for embedded) 18:52:28 spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 18:52:37 jasom, just a vague notion that some Lisp implementations might do something similar 18:52:47 *drewc* makes sure he is in #lisp before saying "on topic please!" 18:53:07 Sgeo: nope, CMUCL require CMUCL to build is no stranger than if g++ required g++ to build 18:53:31 jasom: g++ requires g++, btw 18:53:38 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:53:51 well there you go then 18:54:31 Sgeo: it is unrelated to the Ken Thompson article; just that both cmucl and g++ use non-standard features (i.e. stuff not in common lisp or C++ respectively) in their implementation 18:54:56 Hermit [~arm@unaffiliated/grpala] has joined #lisp 18:54:57 jasom, but cmucl does include assembly or machine code or something like that in its source? 18:55:28 jasom: it's more incestuous than that for cmucl. 18:55:52 wait, CMUCL is a multi platform thing? :D 18:56:36 Sgeo: do you mean "Are there any assemblies in cmucl" or "Are there tables of machine code for code-gen in cmucl"? 18:56:57 zeom [~zeom@unaffiliated/zeom] has joined #lisp 18:56:59 I don't know the answer to either, but I would guess "Yes" for the second. 18:57:13 jasom, ok 18:57:18 fisxoj [~fisxoj@c-24-12-190-29.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:57:43 has sbcl ever been successfully bootstrapped with allegro or lispworks? 18:58:16 Sgeo: somewhere in the code or data, you need a reference to the machine-code for the target platform (whether the target platform is a VM or a specific CPU). 18:58:52 How about just in the resulting binary when you compile the compiler with the compiler? 18:59:09 Fade: I remember trying lispworks back in the day and it 'worked' .... but i seem to remember a test where SBCL is/was compiled by others to make sure they all worked as well. 18:59:42 Sgeo: can I cross compile? 18:59:44 Sgeo: yes, that's fine, that's part of the "data"; the easiest way to do that is to have it in the input-data, but it could be embedded in the compiler a la the KT article; there is just no good reason to do that, since it makes it harder to modify that data 18:59:56 i've successfully used clisp and mcl, but haven't tried other lisps. 19:00:52 jasom, that's what I want to do, embed it in the compiler 19:00:56 ala Trusting Trust 19:01:07 Sgeo: you can do it, but it's stupid. 19:01:15 and now I have real-work to do 19:01:18 Which is why I'm making an esolang, and not a real language 19:01:48 Actually, I do see _some_ utility to it, but it makes cross compiling much more difficult, and feels unclean 19:01:54 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@rrcs-108-178-120-144.sw.biz.rr.com] has quit [] 19:02:20 Fade: fwiw, I have not tried in like 8 years, when sbcl was 0.8. , and really have used SBCL full time since then... heck I even DL the binary these days ... I must have some trust for the devs going through my head :) 19:02:38 :) 19:02:44 -!- chaitanya [~chaitanya@122.161.228.95] has quit [Quit: chaitanya] 19:03:04 I usually install a system package sbcl to bootsrap the actual sbcl I end up using 19:03:46 puchacz [~puchacz@46-65-36-47.zone16.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:03:46 although I'm going to be bootstrapping a sparc machine shortly; I'll probably download the 1.0.28 bin listed at sbcl.org 19:04:13 rbarraud__ [~rbarraud@125-239-32-133.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 19:04:19 bitonic [~user@b0fe9665.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 19:04:25 'system package'? I use debian for the most part, have been since '96... and stopped using .debs for lisp a long long long time ago ... C-L-C is not my friend imo 19:05:07 aye, as in 'apt-get install sbcl' 19:05:27 then I use that sbcl to bootsrap the sbcl source from git. 19:05:57 so, if i do need to compile, I run my 'install-binary-sbcl.sh' first, which wgets the bin 19:07:53 simply because I do not like debian lisp packages at all, do not like them installed, do not like them around, and for that matter have started to move beyond debian for my linux usage for the first time in like 17 years! 19:07:56 Bike [~Glossina@63-229-134-7.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 19:09:58 killing c-l-c is trivial, and lately the debs don't conflict at all with a side loaded 'main' sbcl 19:13:27 I've been looking a bit at nixos 19:13:44 dlowe: using is on my notebook full time. love it 19:13:50 -!- puchacz [~puchacz@46-65-36-47.zone16.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:14:09 not OT, but I've moved my workstations from debian/ubuntu to gentoo. I still use debian on all server systems. 19:14:14 drewc: with what linux? 19:14:39 debian is good on servers. I'd dare not use gentoo on remote servers. 19:15:29 pjb: to replace debian? right now looking at nixos ... still use debian stable on all my servers. and probably will continue to do so 19:15:32 it's like this decade's gobolinux 19:15:37 -!- S11001001 [~sirian@fsf/member/S11001001] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 19:15:49 dlowe: looking at Guix myself 19:15:59 http://www.gnu.org/software/guix/ 19:16:13 yeah, I saw that. Seems like a useful addon to nixos 19:16:49 yeah, and I prefer the syntax of scheme over whatever the fsck they are using :) 19:17:38 -!- axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-88-224.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.0] 19:18:33 one of the nice things about debian is that it has been the 'same' with improvements over the last many many years ... so things I learned like 15 years ago are still useful today. and of course, I only run 'stable' on my servers ... and stable it is. 19:18:37 axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-88-224.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:19:38 (and to make it relevant to #lisp, debian is run for common-lisp.net, and since nobody is in the #common-lisp.net who will listen to my blabbing ... blab here i will!) 19:23:57 billstclair [~billstcla@p-69-195-48-23.dsl1.rtr.chat.fpma.frpt.net] has joined #lisp 19:23:57 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@p-69-195-48-23.dsl1.rtr.chat.fpma.frpt.net] has quit [Changing host] 19:23:57 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 19:28:12 -!- zajn [~zajn@c-67-182-61-90.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:29:50 -!- bitonic [~user@b0fe9665.bb.sky.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:32:17 toekutr [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 19:34:03 jack_rabbit [~kyle@c-98-253-60-75.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:37:24 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:38:05 -!- LiamH [~none@rrcs-24-43-226-3.west.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:39:35 bitonic [~user@b0fe9665.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 19:40:31 -!- weie_ [~eie@softbank221078042071.bbtec.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 19:41:01 HG` [~HG@wprt-5d834930.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 19:41:35 k0001_ [~k0001@host35.186-108-165.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 19:42:02 -!- bitonic [~user@b0fe9665.bb.sky.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:42:17 puchacz [~puchacz@46-65-36-47.zone16.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:42:29 bitonic [~user@b0fe9665.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 19:42:57 -!- splittist [bc3f1563@gateway/web/freenode/ip.188.63.21.99] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:42:58 -!- zorkmoid [c2ed8e07@gateway/web/freenode/ip.194.237.142.7] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:43:47 -!- dnolen [aa95640a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.170.149.100.10] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:44:37 -!- k0001 [~k0001@host181.190-137-200.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:45:14 dto [~user@pool-96-252-62-13.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:47:26 -!- axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-88-224.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.0] 19:48:50 axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-88-224.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:51:06 -!- _d3f [~freedo@nl2.ovpn.to] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:51:25 -!- sirdancealot1 [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:51:29 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@78-0-207-166.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:51:56 jasom: however, lisp is not complicated software, and can be written in assembler. 19:52:12 to wit: all the CL implementation written in C. 19:52:42 -!- yawnt [~yawnt@net-93-147-125-24.cust.dsl.teletu.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:52:50 drewc: Even if you build your computer from sand, you have to trust God with the Universe. 19:53:06 (or Mother Nature with physics, as you believe). 19:53:24 pjb: indeed. and that does not even get into the multiverse. 19:53:30 pyx [~pyx@d24-141-100-35.home.cgocable.net] has joined #lisp 19:53:37 -!- axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-88-224.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:54:11 yawnt [~yawnt@net-93-147-100-152.cust.dsl.teletu.it] has joined #lisp 19:54:11 Sgeo: have a look at the sources of SBCL. Eg.: (defun car (x) (car x)) <--- !!! 19:54:22 -!- sirdancealot [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:54:33 -!- eataix [eataix@unaffiliated/eataix] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in] 19:54:41 kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-120-248.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 19:54:42 o.O 19:54:47 Sgeo: basically: (defun compile (x) (compile x)) (compile 'compile) (funcall (compile (lambda (x) (1+ x))) 42) --> 43 19:55:44 Sgeo: Why do you want to do that? 19:55:49 MrWGW- [~MrWGW-@irssi.wgwilkins.net] has joined #lisp 19:56:23 |3b| [foobar@cpe-72-177-66-41.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:56:33 ASau` [~user@46.115.114.82] has joined #lisp 19:57:56 -!- abeaumont [~abeaumont@172.Red-83-61-64.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:58:20 -!- ASau [~user@176.4.17.213] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:58:45 pnpuff [~dioxirane@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 19:59:32 -!- pnpuff [~dioxirane@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has left #lisp 20:03:49 pjb: I have seen complete operating systems, along with guis etc. written in assembler; that doesn't mean they aren't complicated. 20:04:47 KingsKnighted [~quassel@174.52.149.13] has joined #lisp 20:05:12 -!- add^_ [~add^_@m37-3-22-251.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: The Garbage Collector got me...] 20:05:28 pnpuff [~dioxirane@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 20:05:42 -!- answer_42 [~answer_42@gateway/tor-sasl/answer42/x-66983568] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:06:22 sirdancealot [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 20:06:56 -!- ASau` is now known as ASau 20:07:26 sirdancealot1 [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 20:08:19 Defluo [~Defluo@unaffiliated/defluo] has joined #lisp 20:09:51 jasom: anyways, the point is that you don't write whole systems in assembler. You use assembler to bootstrap a lisp, and climb the complexity scale using lisp. 20:10:22 -!- pnpuff [~dioxirane@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has quit [Quit: dat rosa mel apibus] 20:10:39 You just need to implement cons, car, cdr, make-symbol, a basic read and a basic eval in assembler. 20:11:07 and a garbage collector maybe 20:11:14 dim: not to bootstrap 20:11:42 can you actually write the GC in lisp? 20:11:47 Of course. 20:12:02 you need to expose some more facilities than listed for that, though, right? 20:12:15 See https://gitorious.org/com-informatimago/com-informatimago/trees/master/common-lisp/heap 20:12:25 Yes, you need a peek and a poke. 20:13:04 Not the hardest primitive to write in assembler, I'd say. 20:13:30 LiamH [~none@rrcs-24-43-226-3.west.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:13:40 netgod [goldenligh@gateway/shell/devio.us/x-nwyhvyrbbufrjlye] has joined #lisp 20:15:33 you definitely don't need a GC to start out wtih 20:17:34 answer_42 [~answer_42@gateway/tor-sasl/answer42/x-66983568] has joined #lisp 20:17:37 -!- spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:18:01 Even when they bootstrapped LISP on a 32-Kword machine, they didn't have a garbage collector. 20:18:11 So when you have 24 GB of RAM 20:18:56 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-66-190.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 20:19:01 reminds me of that plan9 port where they showed how far one can get without interrupt handler or task switching 20:19:23 heh .. time to restart the LispM .. that will 'collect' the 'garbage' 20:19:45 I think they crashed when running shell, because suddenly you had to care about interrupts 20:19:46 do you have an example of a restart handy? I'm going to write my first one I think (catching a condition in a layer of the code and having the processing code in another layer, looks like a good case for a restart) 20:20:05 While you don't try to print the latest biggest prime, you should be good for a few weeks. 20:20:16 zenlunatic [~justin@fsf/member/zenlunatic] has joined #lisp 20:20:35 barryfm [~barryfm@fl-71-52-209-5.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 20:21:41 *jasom* has regularly written C programs that malloc but don't free 20:22:33 -lboehmgc 20:22:48 nah, just "this will not run for more than a second" 20:24:30 sabalaba [~Adium@c-76-21-4-232.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:27:12 -!- Joreji [~thomas@87-188.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:31:06 -!- netgod [goldenligh@gateway/shell/devio.us/x-nwyhvyrbbufrjlye] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:33:34 przl [~przlrkt@84.191.151.169] has joined #lisp 20:34:44 -!- Hermit [~arm@unaffiliated/grpala] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:35:43 -!- agumonkey [~agu@167.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:36:14 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 20:36:57 a teacher I had learnt to program in C in the 70's and used to malloc a big array of 2MB at startup and use only that 20:37:04 when needed, allocate another one 20:37:24 he didn't use malloc(), maybe that didn't exist in the C he learnt 20:38:01 Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 20:38:40 dim: I do not have K&R around ... but I seem to remember Chapter 8? 20:39:09 I must admin never having read that 20:39:12 normanrichards [~normanric@rrcs-108-178-120-144.sw.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:39:13 -!- cdidd [~cdidd@176.14.158.121] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:39:14 admit, even 20:39:47 ah ... that is how I learned C :) 20:40:08 You can still use brk() to allocate memory. 20:40:26 section 7 chapter 8 according to my google search 20:40:45 http://stackoverflow.com/questions/10770570/k-r-malloc-code-doesnt-make-sense 20:41:45 AeroNotix [~xeno@abou186.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 20:45:07 impomatic [~digital_w@47.204.125.91.dyn.plus.net] has joined #lisp 20:47:13 Hermit [~arm@unaffiliated/grpala] has joined #lisp 20:47:41 So? 20:48:09 Does anything make sense to users of stackoverflow? 20:48:46 20:52:06 -!- k0001_ [~k0001@host35.186-108-165.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:53:27 -!- Thra11 [~thrall@46.208.82.133] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:58:13 -!- KingsKnighted [~quassel@174.52.149.13] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:02:18 -!- eldariof [~CLD@pppoe-209-106-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has quit [] 21:03:53 -!- przl [~przlrkt@84.191.151.169] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:04:45 przl [~przlrkt@p54BF97A9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 21:05:59 pjb: I did not read the question or answers at all, so I cannot say ... just wanted to have the src , and someone c/p'd it there :) 21:08:54 -!- joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@086.112-30-64.ftth.swbr.surewest.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:10:50 -!- bitonic [~user@b0fe9665.bb.sky.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:11:45 -!- xcombelle [~xcombelle@AToulouse-551-1-68-37.w92-146.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Hi, I'm a quit message virus. 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