00:00:03 -!- tankrim [~user@pdpc/supporter/active/tankrim] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:00:24 now is there a tutorial for c/c++ compilation when quickload-ing a new system with c/c++ code in it? 00:00:46 tankrim [~user@pdpc/supporter/active/tankrim] has joined #lisp 00:00:48 no 00:01:05 isn't that usually part of the asd if anything 00:01:12 -!- doomlord [~doomlod@host86-171-15-248.range86-171.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:01:16 most projects that do that have a Makefile for the C part 00:01:53 fe[nl]ix: I've got it 00:01:54 it's possible to compile C code using ASDF, but not very easy 00:01:59 fe[nl]ix: a working Makefile 00:02:26 -!- leoc` [~leoc.git@p57AA6581.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:02:33 I saw that quickload-ing commonqt involved a lot of compilation 00:02:35 sabalaba [~Adium@c-76-21-4-232.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:03:12 -!- Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:03:13 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-139-15-102.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:03:16 fe[nl]ix: I'm trying to make cl-opencv quickload-able 00:03:23 fe[nl]ix: it's not terribly hard either, unless you need fancy stuff 00:03:43 Posterdati: can't you run make from asdf? 00:04:02 prxq: I don't know how to do it 00:05:06 that's why I asked for a tutorial/example 00:06:33 -!- sabalaba [~Adium@c-76-21-4-232.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 00:06:39 kennyd [~kennyd@93-139-15-102.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 00:09:04 prxq: maybe executing make as an external program would be suffice 00:09:21 Posterdati: yes. 1 sec 00:09:29 ok 00:09:59 http://paste.lisp.org/display/135394 00:10:42 wow 00:10:45 what is it? 00:10:55 Posterdati: that's an asd that compiles fortran files in matlisp. If you have a working makefile, you can probably define a directory 00:10:57 seems blas related 00:11:14 as a source file, and have make run there. 00:11:22 details are left as an exercise :-) 00:11:33 lol 00:11:36 thanks 00:11:37 output file would be an .so 00:11:42 yes 00:11:46 compilation would be invoking make 00:11:52 is what I need 00:12:19 but you add compiler switches 00:12:47 yes, in this specific case that was done in that way. 00:13:04 Dalek_Baldwin [~Adium@71-84-34-33.dhcp.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has joined #lisp 00:13:42 -!- francisl [~anonymous@69.157.143.178] has quit [Quit: francisl] 00:14:08 Posterdati: this .asd substitutes a Makefile. I posted it because it shows how to define custom modules and operations. 00:14:18 ok 00:14:34 but I prefer to use the Makefile 00:14:49 in your case it probably makes more sense. 00:15:04 so 00:15:31 compilation should performed before cffi take care about foreign libraries 00:15:42 yes 00:16:06 otherwise it will step into a void 00:16:57 well it won't find the glue library and loading will fail 00:17:37 a less poetic way of saying it :-) 00:18:03 prxq: what about this? http://stackoverflow.com/questions/6065446/executing-a-shell-command-from-common-lisp 00:19:22 Posterdati: what about it? looks ok 00:19:30 youlysses [~user@75-132-7-80.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 00:19:38 CL-USER> (asdf:run-shell-command "ls -al") 00:19:38 0 00:19:44 lol 00:19:57 -!- Octothorpe [~nobody@xdsl-78-35-173-113.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:20:15 that's the return value. 00:20:32 you need to take care of stdout, i suppose 00:21:05 Bike: yes, you're right 00:21:12 (with-output-to-string (asdf::*verbose-out*) (asdf:run-shell-command "ls")) 00:23:40 peterhil [~peterhil@91-157-48-10.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 00:25:45 Ralt_ [~ralt@89-92-204-200.hfc.dyn.abo.bbox.fr] has joined #lisp 00:25:48 -!- bitonic [~user@027b68b8.bb.sky.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:26:47 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-4d013fd0.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:27:55 Fare [~fare@31.37.158.224] has joined #lisp 00:28:09 _tca [~user@h151.25.91.207.static.ip.windstream.net] has joined #lisp 00:28:41 denis_ [~ds@dslb-088-071-131-103.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 00:34:58 fe[nl]ix: it works! 00:35:55 http://paste.lisp.org/display/135394#1 00:39:17 -!- bjorkintosh [~bjork@ip68-13-229-200.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:40:32 -!- zacts [~lcc@unaffiliated/zacts] has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:43:41 -!- Ralt_ [~ralt@89-92-204-200.hfc.dyn.abo.bbox.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:44:08 bitonic [~user@027b68b8.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 00:44:25 -!- user52882 [~user52882@94-194-53-166.zone8.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:44:41 user52882 [~user52882@94-194-53-166.zone8.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 00:46:57 I ran into a unique problem implementing QUOTE in my CL in C++ compiler. I've been banging my head against this problem for a week and I think I have the only solution to the problem. 00:47:07 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:47:09 zacts [~lcc@unaffiliated/zacts] has joined #lisp 00:47:40 The problem is that I cannot generate literal instances of C++ classes at compile time and store them in the compiled file. 00:48:16 -!- kmels [~kmels@frbg-4d029eb5.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 00:48:21 The memory layout of C++ classes is C++ compiler implementation dependent. 00:48:29 Corvidium [~cosman246@c-24-56-228-105.customer.broadstripe.net] has joined #lisp 00:49:11 So to compile QUOTEd objects I have to generate code that calls C++ functions to generate the quoted objects at load-time. 00:50:12 drmeister: make-load-form does that for CL objects 00:50:26 So when my FASL files load the first thing they will do is generate all quoted data with an array of pointers pointing to them and then the code will refer to those generated objects. 00:51:12 -!- xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.144.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:51:36 Ok, I'll take a look at make-load-form. 00:52:02 it's basically what you're describing (except for standard-objects) 00:52:12 Do you see any fundamental drawbacks to what I'm proposing to do - other than the overhead involved in creating quoted objects at runtime. 00:52:14 drmeister: do what GCC does. the layout is not in the C++ standard, but if you restrict yourself to GCC/x86_64 you have a stable layout 00:52:48 fe[nl]ix: I really don't want to tie myself to a C++ compiler implementation - therein lies madness. 00:53:45 drmeister: you'll probably have to do similar things for make-load-form and load-time-value anyway, as i understand it 00:54:11 drmeister: I disagree. GCC's C++ ABI is stable, and LLVM does what GCC does 00:54:12 Especially because the first thing I want to do is compile this all on a supercomputer where they use different compilers from G++. 00:55:39 jleija [~jleija@50.8.41.50] has joined #lisp 00:55:44 what supercomputer ? 00:55:58 3/win 11 00:56:33 Kraken it's part of Teragrid. They recommend Portland Group, then Intel, then GCC compilers in that order. 00:57:51 I'm really just looking for fundamental reasons why I can't do this - if there are none then I can proceed. 00:58:19 i'm pretty sure it's what CL does already, so I don't think so... 00:59:28 Bike: I think that CL implementations that control their own memory layouts can generate everything at compile time and bundle it into a read-only data block. 01:00:03 -!- jeppy` [~shh@cblmdm72-241-44-113.buckeyecom.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:00:07 drmeister: no, because make-load-form and load-time-value mean arbitrary code being executed at load time. 01:00:20 jeppy [~shh@cblmdm72-241-44-113.buckeyecom.net] has joined #lisp 01:00:20 This is what I've been trying to figure out how to do for the past week or so. I finally realized that if I want to use C++ structures - and that is the point of this - then I have to let C++ generate the data structures. 01:01:55 normanrichards [~normanric@70.114.215.220] has joined #lisp 01:02:16 Bike: Ah, the load-time-value special operator and make-load-form (generic function) do it at run-time - yes. 01:02:37 "it" being "generate data structures at run-time". 01:02:52 load-time, yeah. 01:03:08 load-time, right. 01:03:51 On that, what does make-load-form use to do it's magic. This is the first time I've been introduced to it. It must use load-time-value correct? 01:04:42 ? it tells the compiler how to dump literal objects (which doesn't have to use l-t-v or anything) 01:05:36 Bike: I'll have to investigate it more. 01:06:33 the file compiler seems pretty confusing, i've been trying to write a simple implementation of it to see how it works exactly 01:06:53 -!- bitonic [~user@027b68b8.bb.sky.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:08:27 -!- zolk3ri1 [~Zol1ka@catv-89-132-196-182.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:10:10 Bike: Do you mean COMPILE-FILE - if so, yes, it has a lot going on within it. 01:10:26 compile-file, yes. 01:11:52 I'm pretty excited because I figured out how to generate native code dynamically linked libraries from my compiler. 01:13:07 I'm going to have COMPILE-FILE generate LLVM bitcode files and then compile and link those into a single .dylib (OS X) or .so (linux) file and load them at runtime. 01:13:28 That should be pretty fast. 01:14:24 First I have to get QUOTE working properly with coalescence of all types. 01:14:59 mm, i've been wondering how .so fasls should work. i think you need to have, um, whatever the .so equivalent of DllMain is. 01:15:05 i should probably check ecl. 01:16:34 -!- edgar-rft [~GOD@HSI-KBW-149-172-63-75.hsi13.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:17:51 edgar-rft [~GOD@HSI-KBW-149-172-63-75.hsi13.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 01:18:26 spaceships [~spaceship@host-72-174-137-126.msl-mt.client.bresnan.net] has joined #lisp 01:18:40 gigamonkey [~textual@50-1-84-225.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 01:18:44 -!- tigranes [~tigranes@static-50-53-64-180.bvtn.or.frontiernet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:19:02 Bike: What I'm doing is creating an extern "C" function in the .so with the name "__initXXXX" where XXXX is the name of the .so file 01:19:14 Oh, and then you just call that in your loader. 01:19:20 Bike: Yes. 01:19:44 That's sensible. Probably shouldn't have mentally skipped ahead to using CL code in C projects. 01:20:08 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@84-72-21-32.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:20:29 That function then calls the private thunk (function that takes no args) that generates all the QUOTEd data and then it calls the function that resulted from the compilation of each top-level-form in tern. 01:20:32 turn. 01:27:24 -!- Defluo [~Defluo@unaffiliated/defluo] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com] 01:31:05 I think you need every extern "C" function that you load to have a unique name - hence the "__initXXXX" approach. 01:34:26 -!- gigamonkey [~textual@50-1-84-225.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 01:36:54 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 01:37:37 -!- denis_ [~ds@dslb-088-071-131-103.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 01:42:04 cfy [~ilisp@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 01:42:57 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-139-15-102.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:44:13 joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@086.112-30-64.ftth.swbr.surewest.net] has joined #lisp 01:45:26 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:49:28 fisxoj [~fisxoj@c-24-12-190-29.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:50:36 -!- zejedi [~zejedi@108.222.222.199] has quit [] 01:51:51 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-96-240-138-223.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 02:13:54 sigh. M-x gnus, only have comp.lang.lisp, and I do not like reading WJ's code at all. 67 new ... 70% (or so) him/her. 02:14:15 how long as that person been doing that 02:14:50 A long time afaik ... but I usually have a killfile ... this is a new gnus on a new system etc. 02:16:22 I decided to start not having rating etc, to open myself up to comp.lang.lisp again... well, I like Racket and Clojure, but I also like decent code... confused I am. 02:19:35 francisl [~anonymous@69.157.143.178] has joined #lisp 02:22:21 Jubb [~ghost@pool-108-28-62-61.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:25:20 S11001001 [~sirian@fsf/member/S11001001] has joined #lisp 02:28:12 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@70.114.215.220] has quit [] 02:28:12 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:33:59 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-185-82-146.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:36:11 -!- Fare [~fare@31.37.158.224] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:36:15 yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.169] has joined #lisp 02:38:52 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-185-82-146.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:44:27 mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-96-240-138-223.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:49:43 -!- Strigoides [~owen@60-234-213-126.bitstream.orcon.net.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:51:42 Strigoides [~owen@60-234-213-126.bitstream.orcon.net.nz] has joined #lisp 02:53:49 k0001_ [~k0001@host238.186-108-165.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 02:56:55 -!- k0001 [~k0001@200.117.235.85] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 03:02:23 rmathews [~roshan@122.164.143.240] has joined #lisp 03:02:32 -!- Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-72-66-99-183.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 03:09:20 ldionmarcil [~user@unaffiliated/maden] has joined #lisp 03:10:13 spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 03:14:23 -!- Strigoides [~owen@60-234-213-126.bitstream.orcon.net.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:14:40 apeman_ [~apeman@94.247.69.111.dynamic.snap.net.nz] has joined #lisp 03:15:29 a procedure like map that applies something to every element of a list (http://pastebin.com/fiCtJ8xD) - is there a way to write it as an iterative process? 03:15:53 apeman_: sure, just walk down the list accumulating conses 03:16:17 -!- antonv [5d7d2a66@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.42.102] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:16:19 Strigoides [~owen@60-234-213-126.bitstream.orcon.net.nz] has joined #lisp 03:16:31 -!- zacts [~lcc@unaffiliated/zacts] has quit [Quit: leaving] 03:17:19 i mean iterative as in, doesnt require more and more memory on the stack 03:17:41 Yes. 03:19:27 isn't that recursive (as opposed to iterative) because the return value is { (cons first-processed-item.. my-map-function..) } ? 03:19:43 the implementaiton you pasted is recursive, sure. 03:20:52 (defun map1 (fn list) (if (null list) nil (let* ((res (list (funcall fn (first list)))) (ptr res)) (dolist (elt (rest list) res) (setf (cdr ptr) (list (funcall fn x)) ptr (cdr ptr)))))) or so. 03:25:16 -!- davidbrenneman [davidbrenn@2600:3c01::f03c:91ff:feae:7b28] has left #lisp 03:27:37 -!- kruhft [~user@69.90.114.176] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:32:14 zajn [~zajn@c-67-182-61-90.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:33:32 -!- sellout- [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:39:48 <|3b|> apeman_: this channel is about CL, so 'iterative' means LOOP or DO or whatever... if you mean 'tail recursive' then either accumulate the list in reverse order and reverse it at the end, or pass the tail of the list as an extra parameter and add to the end 03:40:51 <|3b|> (same strategies would be used in CL style iteration as well) 03:44:55 tigranes [~tigranes@static-50-53-64-180.bvtn.or.frontiernet.net] has joined #lisp 03:50:16 normanrichards [~normanric@mobile-166-137-148-098.mycingular.net] has joined #lisp 03:50:55 apeman__ [~apeman@5.247.69.111.dynamic.snap.net.nz] has joined #lisp 03:52:37 -!- apeman_ [~apeman@94.247.69.111.dynamic.snap.net.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:52:50 -!- apeman__ is now known as apeman_ 03:53:24 -!- user52882 [~user52882@94-194-53-166.zone8.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: leaving] 04:04:35 Is there a name for |Symbols Like This|? 04:05:41 symbols with escaped names? 04:07:23 Simple enough. Thanks :) 04:10:03 whitedawg [~whitedawg@122.179.80.134] has joined #lisp 04:10:05 -!- whitedawg [~whitedawg@122.179.80.134] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 04:10:45 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@mobile-166-137-148-098.mycingular.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:15:27 -!- foreignFunction [~niksaak@94.27.88.162] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:16:52 -!- S11001001 [~sirian@fsf/member/S11001001] has quit [Quit: bye bye] 04:18:53 Another probably misguided question: Any way to tell if a symbol was read using the vertical bar escapes? 04:19:19 Not really, consider |HELLO| versus HELLO (assuming your reader is upcasing) 04:20:21 Bike: Indeed, and that's the main difficulty. I was hoping there was some hint left by the reader. 04:20:37 Why do you want to know? 04:21:39 I'd like to be able to run programs using syntax like (run '(ls -ltr)), but that requires case-sensitive symbols. However, on Linux I can generally assume it will be all lowercase, but then there will be times when filenames are mixed case. 04:22:09 does looking at symbol names for casedness not work? HELLO is distinct from Hello. 04:22:14 So it would be nice to be able to do (run '(mv |Some Fancy File| some_fancy_file)) 04:22:16 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@erudite.anarchism.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 04:23:10 -!- drichards [~user@c-98-232-26-203.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:23:19 Bike: At least in SBCL, (symbol-name 'hello) and (symbol-name 'heLLo) always return "HELLO" 04:23:49 tigranes: yes, because the reader is upcasing, check readtable-case in the clhs or just use '|heLLo| 04:25:23 Bike: I did start looking at readtable-case, but it seems like changing that in a program could lead to problems. Or maybe it just sounds scary, now that I think about it... 04:25:29 -!- francisl [~anonymous@69.157.143.178] has quit [Quit: francisl] 04:26:38 -!- toekutr [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:30:03 -!- youlysses [~user@75-132-7-80.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:30:40 This seems promising so far, especially with named-readtables. Thank you. 04:32:17 k0001 [~k0001@186.153.79.107] has joined #lisp 04:33:12 worstadmin [~worst@174.141.213.54] has joined #lisp 04:36:05 -!- k0001_ [~k0001@host238.186-108-165.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 04:43:01 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-96-240-138-223.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 04:43:56 mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-96-240-138-223.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:45:23 -!- adelgado [~TomSawyer@c-66-229-185-165.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:48:00 -!- apeman_ [~apeman@5.247.69.111.dynamic.snap.net.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 04:48:52 apeman_ [~apeman@95.250.69.111.dynamic.snap.net.nz] has joined #lisp 04:54:41 eppa [~user@124-170-1-192.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 04:59:08 -!- eppa [~user@124-170-1-192.dyn.iinet.net.au] has left #lisp 05:01:41 -!- vince` [~user@cpe-24-58-63-56.twcny.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 05:05:17 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-96-240-138-223.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 05:16:50 pnathan [~user@98.145.116.195] has joined #lisp 05:18:27 What's the usual way to centralize loading .ASD files on Windows? I have a number of libraries in different locations and it'd be nice to not have to inject each of their locations into the ASDF load-path. 05:19:06 -!- ebobby [~fms@173.228.63.34] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 05:20:08 pnathan: http://common-lisp.net/project/asdf/asdf/Controlling-where-ASDF-searches-for-systems.html#Controlling-where-ASDF-searches-for-systems? 05:20:21 madmuppet006 [~user@122-62-124-247.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 05:22:43 Bike: thanks 05:22:53 -!- Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:22:53 -!- ramus [~ramus@c-50-132-91-53.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:23:53 ramus [~ramus@c-50-132-91-53.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:24:50 Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 05:25:55 jaaso` [~user@178.239.31.147] has joined #lisp 05:28:52 -!- worstadmin [~worst@174.141.213.54] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 05:30:23 -!- cafaro [~tman@unaffiliated/cafaro] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:33:21 akovalen` [~user@95.73.125.162] has joined #lisp 05:35:01 -!- akovalenko [~user@95.72.96.11] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:38:53 svetlyak40wt [~svetlyak4@broadband-95-84-141-55.nationalcablenetworks.ru] has joined #lisp 05:40:57 -!- rmathews [~roshan@122.164.143.240] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:41:48 rmathews [~roshan@122.164.43.167] has joined #lisp 05:45:06 Im trying to convert a procedure I wrote in scheme into lisp .. Im trying to make a square root procedure that can do square roots .. but Im getting an error Argument IMAGPART is not a REAL: (- (ROOT IMAG)) .. any chance someone can have a look at it the work is at pastebin.com/3gagn0E3 the scheme is first then the lisp .. any advice appreciated thanks .. 05:46:56 antonv [5d7d2a66@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.42.102] has joined #lisp 05:47:14 madmuppet006: you want complex. #c doesn't evaluate its arguments. 05:47:40 that, and a decent book. 05:48:52 pkhuong: thanks .. I have a lot of books its the understanding of whats in them that is the problem ..:p 05:49:22 -!- bananagram [~bot@c-98-198-236-112.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:49:23 -!- gko [~user@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:50:24 common lisp the language gives me this http://www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/html/cltl/clm/node20.html 05:51:30 -!- antonv [5d7d2a66@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.42.102] has quit [Client Quit] 05:51:50 toekutr [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 05:53:40 holycow_ [~holycow@out-bc-214.wireless.telus.com] has joined #lisp 05:54:01 -!- svetlyak40wt [~svetlyak4@broadband-95-84-141-55.nationalcablenetworks.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:54:12 meiji11 [~user@d50-99-49-90.abhsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 05:58:48 hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@46.233.222.163] has joined #lisp 05:59:05 Greetings! 06:00:35 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 06:03:41 hi 06:07:36 cdidd [~cdidd@176.14.247.181] has joined #lisp 06:10:25 Okay, I have another silly question. I'm writing my own html-generation library just for fun, but forms generation code don't work as it should. Here is the code: http://paste.lisp.org/display/135401. When I pass nil as an argument it crashes but (format nil "~{~A~}" nil) behaves correctly. What is the problem and how to get rid of these annoying defmethods's correctly? I really have no idea. =( 06:12:29 hitecnologys: what does the condition raised say? 06:12:36 "crashes" shouldn't be happening. 06:14:45 -!- holycow_ [~holycow@out-bc-214.wireless.telus.com] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 06:15:10 -!- zajn [~zajn@c-67-182-61-90.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:15:21 pnathan: It says: "The value "nil" is not of type LIST" 06:16:32 er, did you pass it the string "nil"? 06:17:27 browndawg [~browndawg@117.201.85.162] has joined #lisp 06:17:29 Bike: oh, shit, I'm idiot. Thanks. 06:17:41 paul0 [~paul0@187.58.226.39] has joined #lisp 06:19:29 -!- jleija [~jleija@50.8.41.50] has quit [Quit: leaving] 06:21:07 -!- [SLB] is now known as [SLB]` 06:23:59 *|3b|* wonders whether it runs the SYMBOL or LIST method for NIL, since it is both 06:25:59 -!- meiji11 [~user@d50-99-49-90.abhsia.telus.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:26:34 |3b|: null's precedence list has symbol first, i guess. 06:27:02 <|3b|> yeah, that's what i was looking at 06:28:38 -!- Jubb [~ghost@pool-108-28-62-61.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:30:10 -!- apeman_ [~apeman@95.250.69.111.dynamic.snap.net.nz] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90 [Firefox 18.0.2/20130201065344]] 06:30:51 -!- joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@086.112-30-64.ftth.swbr.surewest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:38:05 -!- ldionmarcil [~user@unaffiliated/maden] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:38:57 -!- yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.169] has quit [Remote 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[~yours@c-208-90-102-250.netflash.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:02:13 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-3-211.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 09:02:14 tcr1 [~tcr@84-72-21-32.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 09:04:12 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-3-211.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 09:04:42 bitonic [~user@027b68b8.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 09:06:51 -!- rmathews [~roshan@122.164.43.167] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:11:40 foeniks [~fevon@dslb-188-099-224-199.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 09:12:04 leoncamel [~leoncamel@124.126.219.23] has joined #lisp 09:16:24 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 09:17:25 is there a relatively conventional way of checking what version of a library you have loaded? 09:18:11 stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-230-044.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 09:19:21 (asdf:component-version (asdf:find-system system)) 09:21:01 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f757451.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 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[Read error: Operation timed out] 09:37:07 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p54BF87BD.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:37:46 Vivitron [~Vivitron@pool-98-110-213-33.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 09:38:41 DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has joined #lisp 09:39:23 kmels [~kmels@frbg-5f732e21.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 09:44:29 -!- Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.0] 09:46:02 srcerer [~chatzilla@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has joined #lisp 09:46:59 -!- srcerer_ [~chatzilla@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 09:49:49 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-3-211.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 09:54:26 sirdancealot1 [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 09:54:32 is this the only difference between slime-eval-last-expression and slime-eval-defun: where they find the expression relative to point? 09:54:48 sdemarre [~serge@122.75-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 09:54:56 -!- sdht [~siddharth@220.225.244.116] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:55:11 slime-eval-defun will redefine defvars 09:56:24 ah... that's useful. does slime-eval-last-expression treat them "normally" (only define them if undefined)? 09:56:32 yes 09:57:53 is it for historical reasons that slime-eval-defun has the "defun" in its name? (since it's not limited to DEFUNs) 09:58:06 snearch [~snearch@89.204.154.172] has joined #lisp 09:58:30 emacs has eval-defun 09:58:32 -!- snearch [~snearch@89.204.154.172] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 09:58:55 -!- sirdancealot1 [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:59:12 -!- foeniks [~fevon@dslb-188-099-224-199.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:59:46 foeniks [~fevon@dslb-188-099-246-059.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 10:00:10 ah, it's mimicking emacs... very good 10:01:42 Ralt_ [~ralt@89-92-204-200.hfc.dyn.abo.bbox.fr] has joined #lisp 10:04:17 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 10:04:22 prxq [~mommer@mnhm-5f75ea97.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 10:06:28 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-3-211.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 10:06:45 is slime-eval-last-expression-display-output gone? 10:07:16 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@c-24-12-190-29.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 10:07:18 -!- milosn [~milosn@user-5AF50134.broadband.tesco.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 10:07:49 'defun' in emacs speak is something like 'toplevel form' usually based on a backwards regexp search for '^(' 10:07:50 -!- srcerer [~chatzilla@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:08:06 fevon [~fevon@dslb-188-099-238-144.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 10:08:48 srcerer [~chatzilla@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has joined #lisp 10:09:23 milosn [~milosn@user-5AF50134.broadband.tesco.net] has joined #lisp 10:10:59 -!- foeniks [~fevon@dslb-188-099-246-059.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 10:11:25 sirdancealot1 [~sirdancea@cst-prg-1-252.cust.vodafone.cz] has joined #lisp 10:13:16 k0001 [~k0001@host140.190-226-195.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 10:14:51 -!- bitonic [~user@027b68b8.bb.sky.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:17:54 I don't have s-e-l-e-d-o either but I seem to remember there being another command that does almost the same thing 10:20:37 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@84-72-21-32.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 10:22:05 _d3f [~freedo@nl2.ovpn.to] has joined #lisp 10:24:10 sirdancealot7 [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 10:28:55 svetlyak40wt [~svetlyak4@broadband-95-84-141-55.nationalcablenetworks.ru] has joined #lisp 10:29:29 Dalek_Baldwin: i don't actually need it -- i'm just going through the slime documentation on a quest for new tricks 10:30:25 robot-beethoven: have you read slime-tips too? 10:30:26 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-3-211.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:31:33 stassats: no -- is that on a different website (than the common-lisp.net one)? 10:31:45 it is 10:32:18 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-3-211.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 10:32:33 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-185-82-146.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 10:34:31 *robot-beethoven* can't believe he only just discovered slime-who-calls this very evening 10:35:16 I've noticed the macroexpansion commands don't seem to work if the cursor is at the end of the buffer 10:35:20 -!- hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@46.233.222.163] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:35:37 drives me crazy looking for bugs in my macros when it says "The value NIL is not of type STRING." 10:35:54 what will it expand? 10:37:04 I mean, right after closing off an expression that you've begun typing at the end of the buffer 10:37:08 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-185-82-146.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 10:37:10 lolzbgr [~bgr@190.191.109.93] has joined #lisp 10:38:09 you're supposed to call it at the opening parenthesis 10:38:53 hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@46.233.222.163] has joined #lisp 10:38:53 -!- Ralt_ [~ralt@89-92-204-200.hfc.dyn.abo.bbox.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:38:59 huh, well it works at the closing paren everywhere else 10:39:53 it's natural to just try something out and hit C-c C-m right away 10:41:27 HG` [~HG@wprt-5d834930.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 10:41:35 heh 10:41:38 great nick Dalek_Baldwin 10:41:45 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-3-211.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:43:18 bitonic [~user@dyn1222-101.wlan.ic.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 10:44:08 -!- hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@46.233.222.163] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:45:11 Ralt_ [~ralt@89-92-204-200.hfc.dyn.abo.bbox.fr] has joined #lisp 10:45:16 -!- sirdancealot7 [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:46:43 -!- sdemarre [~serge@122.75-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 10:46:53 -!- sirdancealot1 [~sirdancea@cst-prg-1-252.cust.vodafone.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:49:15 add^_ [~add^_@m37-3-22-251.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 10:54:03 I've never even watched dr who, but don't tell anyone that. this is my fit-in-with-the-geeks handle 10:54:20 -!- lolzbgr [~bgr@190.191.109.93] has left #lisp 10:54:21 heh 10:56:21 although since I've started using it, I've noticed lispers seem more well-rounded than the rest of the computer science crowd 10:56:44 everyone else claims otherwise 10:58:42 it is kind of an odd conundrum. 10:59:11 I'd say if you're happy to think like a computer, blub languages are satisfying enough 10:59:24 I came to lisp once I decided thinking like a computer should be the computer's job 10:59:26 it's always fun being smug and weenie 10:59:27 naggum was right about emacs: its kind of a filter between the reasonably intelligent and trully stupid. the first thing an intelligent user is rebinds the shortcuts, the stupid just keep on complaining 10:59:33 i feel the same is true of lisp it self 11:00:04 then again, i'm just a smug weenie, as per stassats 11:00:05 :) 11:00:09 *stassats* pats himself on the back right about now 11:01:31 user52882 [~user52882@94-194-53-166.zone8.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 11:01:44 you can be smug and well-adjusted 11:01:55 SanderM [~quassel@vhe-400104.sshn.net] has joined #lisp 11:02:01 sirdancealot1 [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 11:02:53 leoc [~leoc.git@p57AA6581.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:03:50 i actually agree with your statement 11:04:18 but my impression of the 'community' is based on this irc channel and a couple of lisp subprojects 11:04:48 the hate seems to be targetted toward comp.lang.lisp or whatever the main lisp newsgroup is out there 11:05:05 people hate #lisp aplenty 11:05:10 overall everyone has been very humble, and indeed, well rounded. 11:05:17 stassats: really? 11:05:31 yep 11:05:35 huh. 11:05:43 they even write blog posts about them 11:05:48 about it 11:05:53 wow. 11:05:54 sdemarre [~serge@122.75-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 11:06:08 thats just crazy. i've been here for years. 11:06:34 ah well. you can't really win with those sorts of people anyway 11:06:48 -!- foom [jknight@nat/google/x-bnjacejcylijvhql] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:07:58 holycow_: http://blog.jacius.info/2012/04/04/a-rubyists-impressions-of-common-lisp/ 11:08:05 search for "toxic" 11:09:07 well, this should be fun. brb. reading. 11:09:34 *stassats* is pretty certain that he is included in this "toxic" group 11:10:09 hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@46.233.222.163] has joined #lisp 11:11:06 there is so much wrong with the 'toxic' part 11:11:24 stassats: As a member of it, I can certify you belong too. 11:11:55 toxioixot is our secret handshake. 11:12:00 i just don't get where he is getting any of that from. 11:12:00 pjb: "toxic" is the new "smug" 11:12:10 i have asked some truly stupid questions on here and been treated with respect. 11:12:29 i see you guys answering all kinds of sillyness all the time without telling people to go to #lispnewbs or something 11:12:33 crazy 11:12:45 holycow_: well, some people ask stupid questions, get criticized or corrected, or said that they're doing it wrong 11:12:53 and they get really defensive 11:15:25 and then there's the weekly troll asking about speech impediments 11:15:44 heh 11:16:04 well i've seen the trolls drop by here and reddit saying what is so good about lisp, i can do the same in python 11:16:11 but those are obvious to anyone 11:17:24 przl [~przlrkt@108.61.55.148] has joined #lisp 11:17:27 that john croisant dude makes me angry 11:17:42 the amount of slander in that article is amazing 11:18:43 i've spent time in channels that truly abuse people, this dudes off his rocker 11:18:48 -!- hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@46.233.222.163] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:19:38 -!- przl_ [~przlrkt@70.32.45.243] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 11:20:36 Who is John Croisant? 11:20:57 the guy that wrote that article stassats linked tup above 11:21:01 no idea beyond that 11:23:15 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 11:23:56 of course there are classics like http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?SocialProblemsOfLisp 11:24:25 foreignFunction [~niksaak@94.27.88.229] has joined #lisp 11:26:01 wow. the amount of stupid in that ruby coders blog is staggering 11:26:02 jesus 11:26:03 I think that it comes down to being from a culture where illiteracy is socially acceptable. 11:26:27 holycow: What is the first stupid thing that you find in it? 11:26:43 the complaints about historical baggage 11:27:11 i mean, welcome to fucking life 11:27:33 So, that was 'stupid' or 'obviously accurate'? 11:27:57 Kubatyszko [~anonymous@softbank218115049016.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 11:28:00 it's as if he has never actually had any experience in life at all and pigns for some mythical perfect environment that has no historical baggage of any kind. 11:28:44 its just stupid in my opinion. everything has historical baggage. its the nature of existence. i don't know of a single set of experiences, programming or otherwise, where one cannot start complaining about that. 11:28:48 I'll put it down as 'obviously accurate', then. 11:29:08 i don't argue with those that know more than i. 11:29:09 :) 11:30:12 He's clearly indicated that this is his personal experience and view. I don't think that comment is unreasonable, even if it is trite. 11:31:08 its entirely unreasonable. its trite and little more than the equivalent of an ungrateful child. 11:31:30 Which is reasonable given what the article is. 11:31:59 i get the 'meta' aspect of your argument. i don't agree with it, but i get it. 11:32:00 :) 11:32:08 If someone wrote an article about "How I felt about the chocolate I ate last night" and mentioned that it was chocolaty ... 11:32:20 mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.99.220] has joined #lisp 11:32:50 perhaps that person should not write something of that nature 11:33:38 People ought to be how I expect them. :) 11:33:38 perhaps, an adult, understands that there really is very little to say or write on these subjetcs. 11:33:43 -!- paul0 [~paul0@187.58.226.39] has quit [Quit: paul0] 11:33:53 heh! :) 11:34:00 stop using my arguments against me, damnit! 11:34:11 blogs are popular, you're not cool if you don't write your opinions in a blog 11:34:34 -!- Kubatyszko [~anonymous@softbank218115049016.bbtec.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:35:34 http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?WhyWeHateLisp is fun too 11:35:36 kubatyszko [~nobody@softbank218115049016.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 11:37:58 -!- kubatyszko [~nobody@softbank218115049016.bbtec.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:38:18 -!- reckler [~reckler@ppp118-208-53-131.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:39:35 -!- fevon [~fevon@dslb-188-099-238-144.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:42:22 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 11:42:57 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-154-54.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:44:02 stassats: good posts 11:44:03 :) 11:44:30 hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@46.233.222.163] has joined #lisp 11:44:43 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:45:56 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-181-118.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 11:48:52 -!- hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@46.233.222.163] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:49:52 -!- przl [~przlrkt@108.61.55.148] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:52:07 oh yeah, I completely forgot about paul graham in all of this 11:52:20 he's a bit of a lightning rod for lisp hate 11:57:35 -!- agumonkey [~agu@138.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:04:48 agumonkey [~agu@167.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 12:07:05 przl [~przlrkt@108.61.81.101] has joined #lisp 12:08:56 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.66] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.2.93.1] 12:08:58 hi 12:11:18 good night all 12:11:20 -!- holycow_ [~holycow@out-bc-214.wireless.telus.com] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 12:12:23 -!- przl [~przlrkt@108.61.81.101] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 12:13:48 cfy` [~ilisp@183.140.232.204] has joined #lisp 12:15:12 -!- cfy [~ilisp@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:17:10 yeah, rubyist impressions post is really over the top about the community problems 12:17:14 Serious Problem: The Community Atmosphere 12:17:20 give me a break 12:17:43 "the community so bad, it doesn't know it" 12:17:59 Cl has problems, yes. Is it about the community? No. 12:18:26 stassats: don't see that bit 12:19:08 there is that WJ guy on comp.lang.lisp. He's pretty annoying, true. 12:19:12 faheem: i made it up 12:19:16 or is it WC? 12:19:33 stassats: you should write a blog post. :-) 12:19:50 it's in quotes, means it's not what i'm saying 12:20:09 -!- weie [~eie@softbank221078042071.bbtec.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 12:20:11 means somebody else could be saying it 12:20:15 I thought of commenting on that blog post, suggesting they write about actual problems instead. But didn't. 12:20:18 stassats: ok 12:20:23 przl [~przlrkt@p54BF87BD.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 12:20:47 weie [~eie@softbank221078042071.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 12:20:52 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-185-82-146.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 12:22:14 -!- weie [~eie@softbank221078042071.bbtec.net] has quit [Client Quit] 12:22:16 I've never had any contact with Naggum, who I believe has now left us, but I've read his posts, and I can imagine he was a bit abrasive. But that is not necessarily such a bad thing, imo. 12:24:28 fsvehla_ [~fsvehla@h081217181184.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 12:24:40 -!- edgar-rft [~GOD@HSI-KBW-149-172-63-75.hsi13.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Quit: mental blackout] 12:25:24 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-185-82-146.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:27:00 -!- fsvehla [~fsvehla@h081217181184.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:27:00 -!- fsvehla_ is now known as fsvehla 12:28:35 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-84-44-155-142.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 12:32:15 Well, these days expecting people to be literate is considered extreme and unwarranted. 12:32:24 So I can see where they are coming from. 12:33:28 Zhivago: i don't see it as a literacy issue myself 12:34:10 -!- sdemarre [~serge@122.75-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 12:34:24 Well, if you read about what he says, the toxicity is due to precise and clear expression. 12:34:32 Zhivago: for some reason CL attracts lots of cranks and ignoramuses that say silly things. Thus irritating people in the community. 12:34:39 Rather than mumbled assumptions. 12:34:40 Zhivago: quote? 12:35:22 browndawg1 [~browndawg@117.214.172.253] has joined #lisp 12:35:33 Without necessarily intending to do so, they have created a constant miasma of disrespect, nitpicking, defensiveness, discouragement, and intolerance. 12:35:51 stassats: i reported the asdf issue to Launchpad. since Robert Goldman suggested it. https://bugs.launchpad.net/asdf/+bug/1120998 12:36:01 yeah, i saw it 12:36:19 Presumably this is disrespect due to nitpickingling pointing out errors in an attempt to defend themselves and discourage others and demonstrate intolerance. 12:37:40 -!- browndawg [~browndawg@117.201.85.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:38:09 Zhivago: i guess it could be read that way. i dunno. in any case, as i said, i think this "toxicity" issue is largely imaginary. 12:38:25 there are unpleasant people in any community. 12:38:40 my worst experiences have been with web programming for some reason. 12:39:00 The point is that it isn't imaginary -- it is describing how they experienced something. 12:39:07 The community *is* unpleasant to illiterates. 12:39:16 Euthy: which community? 12:39:43 #lisp and c.l.l. 12:39:52 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 12:40:06 xcombelle [~xcombelle@AToulouse-551-1-68-37.w92-146.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 12:40:10 Euthy: ah. ok. maybe so. i actually thought most people were quite polite, all things considering. 12:40:19 though i really wish that WJ guy would go away. 12:40:42 You can't say that their experience is imaginary, but you can look at the actual likely stimulus for that experience. 12:41:10 Zhivago: that's true/ 12:42:13 faheem: Polite to whom, is the question. :) 12:43:10 Euthy: polite to random people asking questions, mostly. if there was an inner clique which were polite to each other, and nasty to newcomers and outsiders, that would be bad 12:43:21 but I have not noticed that to be the case 12:44:03 people saying silly things about CL do get jumped on, but I suppose the community gets tired of all the nonsense. 12:44:14 fantazo [~fantazo@213.129.230.10] has joined #lisp 12:44:42 there were some remarkably silly posts by some guy at google/amazon? steve yegge or something? 12:45:02 hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@46.233.222.163] has joined #lisp 12:45:04 he obviously didn't have a clue what he was talking about, just babbling on 12:45:23 Actually, I think he's been pretty clueful. 12:45:31 What did you disagree with most? 12:45:40 Zhivago: hmm? not the blog post i read 12:46:14 browndawg [~browndawg@117.214.171.104] has joined #lisp 12:46:32 Zhivago: i don't have the blog post(s) at hand, but he obviously didn't know CL at all, and made a ton of misstatements which even i could see were wrong. 12:47:55 Zhivago: see this one for example - http://steve-yegge.blogspot.in/2006/04/lisp-is-not-acceptable-lisp.html 12:47:57 It's always useful to work with the assumption that you've missed the point. 12:48:31 What point do you disagree with most in that post? 12:48:35 Pascal Costanza has a polite response to his post, pointing out some of the errors. 12:48:46 Zhivago: he makes factual errors. PC cover them, or some of them 12:48:56 -!- browndawg1 [~browndawg@117.214.172.253] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 12:49:25 Zhivago: and -> Macros are one of the worst problems with Lisp, or at least they're one of the biggest unsolved problems. 12:49:26 So there's no particular point that stands out? 12:49:39 if you don't like them, don't use them. most languages don't have them 12:50:06 I've been writing CL code off and on during 2012 and I haven't written a non-trivial macro yet. It hasn't come up. 12:50:15 one of the worst problems? 12:50:41 the problem with lisp is people trying to find problems with lisp 12:50:44 kubatyszko [~kubatyszk@kubatyszkoi.broker.freenet6.net] has joined #lisp 12:50:49 that yegge post isn't entirely fair, to say the least 12:51:46 So his point that macros aren't first class, and don't get significant compiler support (e.g., the environment support that was in CLTL1 which is no-longer portably useful) ... 12:52:03 ... has no validity to it? 12:52:26 Zhivago: sorry, not sure what you mean by macros are not first class 12:53:04 Well, you can say (foo #'bar), given that bar is a function. 12:53:30 Zhivago: ah, right. you mean it is not like an object. 12:54:00 Sure, and that's important for things like higher order functions, and so on. 12:54:05 Zhivago: well, i'm only a beginner, but i think one of the worst problems is a massive overstatement 12:54:11 I think that his basic thesis about macros is correct. 12:54:25 Zhivago: so, should marcos be first class then? in your opinion? 12:55:16 Probably -- something like what kernel does. 12:56:11 Macros are a bit of a clumsy hack which happens to work mostly. 12:56:15 -!- foreignFunction [~niksaak@94.27.88.229] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:56:28 You can make similar arguments about first class continuations. 12:56:53 Or goto. 12:57:27 Your point about only writing trivial macros should probably tell you something. :) 12:57:39 -!- Ralt_ [~ralt@89-92-204-200.hfc.dyn.abo.bbox.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:59:39 Zhivago: well, my impression about macros, which is borne out by my lack of use of them, is that you don't need them often, but when you do, they are really useful. 12:59:55 Zhivago: anyway, gotta run. nice chatting with you. 12:59:58 You never need macros, by definition. 13:00:11 Zhivago: that's a bit strong. 13:00:15 Since a macro is a little compiler to compile from the language with the macro to the language without the macro. 13:00:22 No. It's just accurate.. 13:00:33 They might be convenient, but they cannot be necessary. 13:01:01 Zhivago: maybe not *necessary*. other languages don't have them, and they manage. 13:01:34 I mean in CL. 13:02:25 In other languages they might actually be necessary. :) 13:02:31 -!- k0001 [~k0001@host140.190-226-195.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:02:47 ykm [~ykm@124.155.255.245] has joined #lisp 13:03:57 Necessary for what? 13:04:42 -!- browndawg [~browndawg@117.214.171.104] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:04:53 Zhivago: macroses are not necessary for everything, but they're useful anyway. 13:04:56 CL code. Well, apart from those mandated by the language. 13:05:17 -!- xcombelle [~xcombelle@AToulouse-551-1-68-37.w92-146.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:09:13 -!- svetlyak40wt [~svetlyak4@broadband-95-84-141-55.nationalcablenetworks.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:10:12 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p54BF87BD.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 13:19:14 faheem: given that macros are functions, and that you can factorize out functions as much as you want, you should not write non-trivial functions either. 13:20:53 -!- cfy` is now known as cfy 13:20:54 -!- cfy [~ilisp@183.140.232.204] has quit [Changing host] 13:20:54 cfy [~ilisp@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 13:23:47 przl [~przlrkt@p54BF87BD.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 13:24:37 -!- Praise [~Fat@unaffiliated/praise] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:25:01 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has left #lisp 13:25:54 Praise [~Fat@unaffiliated/praise] has 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has joined #lisp 16:59:44 i have a hash table with numeric keys and values that are lists (all with the same length, but different data). how would you go about sorting such an object with respect to any number of columns? 17:01:04 SORT basically does what i want for 1 column, it's just that i need the same order imposed on all other columns as well. 17:01:24 -!- Hermit [~arm@unaffiliated/grpala] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:02:11 przl [~przlrkt@p54BF87BD.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 17:05:07 -!- pnpuff [~dioxirane@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has left #lisp 17:07:07 <_tca> hypno: write your own comparison function 17:09:20 (every #'> list1 list2) 17:11:59 what _tca and stassats said is technically superior, however it seems worth noting that stable-sort exists also. 17:12:04 hypno: ^ 17:12:51 Bike [~Glossina@63-229-134-7.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 17:14:43 Are adjustable arrays are only adjusted with ADJUST-ARRAY? In the case of vectors they don't automatically adjust when you write beyond their dimension correct? 17:15:22 vector-push-extend too 17:15:25 right. vector-push-extend calls adjust-array though, iirc. 17:15:34 _tca, stassats, madnificent: ah. thanks. 17:15:42 -!- xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.169.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 17:16:18 vector-push-extend - great, got it. That fits with my implementation perfectly - thanks. 17:18:24 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 17:19:02 -!- bitonic [~user@dyn1236-51.wlan.ic.ac.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:19:03 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.214] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:19:38 bitonic [~user@dyn1236-51.wlan.ic.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 17:19:45 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:25:11 puchacz [~puchacz@46-65-36-47.zone16.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 17:28:21 -!- hugod [~user@bas1-montreal08-1279585004.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 17:30:22 hugod [~user@bas1-montreal08-1279585004.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 17:31:06 -!- ldionmarcil [~user@unaffiliated/maden] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:32:00 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p54BF87BD.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:32:49 przl [~przlrkt@p54BF87BD.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 17:33:18 Thra11 [~thrall@147.10.113.87.dyn.plus.net] has joined #lisp 17:34:22 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 17:34:41 Odyessus [~odyessus@chello080109062130.15.14.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 17:36:10 nan_ [~user@178.233.216.230] has joined #lisp 17:39:28 What functions adjust the fill-pointer of a vector with a fill-pointer? The ones I see are ADJUST-ARRAY, VECTOR-PUSH, VECTOR-PUSH-EXTEND - are there others? 17:40:03 (setf fill-pointer), naturally 17:41:28 I need to add support for adjustable and fill-point(able) vectors and I want to avoid locking in a bad design choice. 17:42:06 Ok, (setf fill-pointer xxx) I can handle. Thanks. 17:42:35 everything else will just use (setf fill-pointer) 17:43:59 -!- cpape [~user@cpape.eu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:44:57 Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 17:45:56 przl_ [~przlrkt@178-32-45-5.ovh.net] has joined #lisp 17:46:13 -!- Odyessus [~odyessus@chello080109062130.15.14.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi] 17:46:30 pnpuff [~dioxirane@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 17:47:35 linse [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1177917310.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 17:47:47 ska` [~user@ppp-58-11-84-37.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 17:47:59 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@50-196-148-102-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 17:48:30 kpreid [~kpreid@50-196-148-102-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 17:48:31 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p54BF87BD.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:49:40 -!- ska` [~user@ppp-58-11-84-37.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Client Quit] 17:53:05 -!- madrik [~user@122.168.209.185] has left #lisp 17:56:05 przl [~przlrkt@p54BF87BD.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 17:56:27 WarWeasle [~brad@c-98-253-8-204.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:58:15 -!- browndawg [~browndawg@117.214.171.104] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:58:21 -!- przl_ [~przlrkt@178-32-45-5.ovh.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:01:38 -!- jeppy [~shh@cblmdm72-241-44-113.buckeyecom.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:02:21 jeppy [~shh@cblmdm72-241-44-113.buckeyecom.net] has joined #lisp 18:04:16 sirdancealot [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 18:07:37 dnolen [~user@cpe-74-64-61-245.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:08:21 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p54BF87BD.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:08:34 przl [~przlrkt@p54BF87BD.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 18:12:56 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@213.129.230.10] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:12:56 -!- ykm [~ykm@124.155.255.240] has left #lisp 18:14:09 Odyessus [~odyessus@chello080109062130.15.14.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 18:19:06 -!- seangrove [~user@c-71-202-126-17.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:19:14 seangrove [~user@c-71-202-126-17.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:20:50 pnpuff_ [~dioxirane@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 18:22:50 qptain_Nemo [~qN@89.207.216.208] has joined #lisp 18:24:12 -!- pnpuff [~dioxirane@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:25:08 -!- pnpuff_ [~dioxirane@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has quit [Client Quit] 18:25:48 -!- Odyessus [~odyessus@chello080109062130.15.14.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi] 18:30:00 Thra11_ [~thrall@87.112.181.149] has joined #lisp 18:30:20 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 18:31:16 -!- Thra11 [~thrall@147.10.113.87.dyn.plus.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:38:46 -!- k0001 [~k0001@host140.190-226-195.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:39:05 -!- svetlyak40wt [~svetlyak4@broadband-95-84-141-55.nationalcablenetworks.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:39:06 Thra11 [~thrall@46.208.236.240] has joined #lisp 18:39:25 -!- Thra11_ [~thrall@87.112.181.149] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:41:51 -!- dtw [~dtw@pdpc/supporter/active/dtw] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 18:41:55 Thra11_ [~thrall@38.72.125.91.dyn.plus.net] has joined #lisp 18:42:52 fisxoj [~fisxoj@c-24-12-190-29.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:43:16 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-3-211.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 18:44:36 -!- Thra11 [~thrall@46.208.236.240] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:45:01 -!- ISF [~ivan@189.61.223.79] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:53:52 according to CLHS 2.3.2.2, when printing a float, the letter E may be substituted by the letter indicating the type of float. is there a way to force printing E instead of s, f, d or l? 18:54:51 -!- tigranes [~tigranes@static-50-53-64-180.bvtn.or.frontiernet.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:55:36 ah, the documentation of *read-default-float-format* describes it. thank you. 18:57:12 Odyessus [~odyessus@chello080109062130.15.14.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 18:59:20 madnificent: ~,,,,,,'eE does it too 18:59:41 (in format) 19:01:00 prxq: having many empty arguments in a format argument always looks funny. thanks, i've shadowed the variable where i need it. the format string is a nice alternative. 19:01:30 the e-float hexapod 19:02:24 (TM) 19:02:31 -!- strobegen [~strobegen@64.120.223.138] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:02:49 -!- _d3f [~freedo@nl2.ovpn.to] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:04:38 francisl [~anonymous@69.157.143.178] has joined #lisp 19:04:49 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:05:40 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has joined #lisp 19:06:44 -!- Odyessus [~odyessus@chello080109062130.15.14.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi] 19:09:08 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has quit [Client Quit] 19:09:46 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has joined #lisp 19:11:17 -!- luis [~luis@nhop.r42.eu] has left #lisp 19:11:20 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-3-211.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:12:25 strz [~strobegen@64.120.223.138] has joined #lisp 19:12:36 add^_ [~add^_@m37-3-22-251.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 19:12:46 -!- strz is now known as strobegen 19:13:13 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-3-211.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:14:26 Thra11 [~thrall@46.208.204.206] has joined #lisp 19:14:58 -!- francisl [~anonymous@69.157.143.178] has quit [Quit: francisl] 19:17:07 -!- Thra11_ [~thrall@38.72.125.91.dyn.plus.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:17:31 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-3-211.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:19:06 Odin- [~sbkhh@erudite.anarchism.is] has joined #lisp 19:21:56 sabalaba [~Adium@199-188-193-9.PUBLIC.monkeybrains.net] has joined #lisp 19:23:03 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:24:07 -!- impomatic [~digital_w@87.115.38.254] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:24:58 -!- WarWeasle [~brad@c-98-253-8-204.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has left #lisp 19:25:12 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-3-211.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:27:22 -!- bitonic [~user@dyn1236-51.wlan.ic.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:27:44 svetlyak40wt [~svetlyak4@broadband-95-84-141-55.nationalcablenetworks.ru] has joined #lisp 19:27:56 -!- leoc [~leoc.git@p57AA6581.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:28:19 prip_ [~foo@host172-135-dynamic.6-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 19:29:33 -!- prip [~foo@host172-135-dynamic.6-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:34:15 pnpuff [~dioxirane@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 19:39:52 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-3-211.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:40:05 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p54BF87BD.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:40:29 -!- nialo [nialo@ool-44c53fec.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [] 19:42:32 -!- xcombelle [~xcombelle@AToulouse-551-1-68-37.w92-146.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:44:39 francisl [~anonymous@69.157.143.178] has joined #lisp 19:45:18 jeppy` [~shh@cblmdm72-241-44-113.buckeyecom.net] has joined #lisp 19:47:05 -!- jeppy [~shh@cblmdm72-241-44-113.buckeyecom.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 19:47:31 -!- Thra11 [~thrall@46.208.204.206] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 19:48:11 yawnt [~yawnt@net-188-153-96-249.cust.dsl.teletu.it] has joined #lisp 19:49:01 so, i beg pardon for the stupid question, but.. do lisps which don't have a *-exp like syntax exist? 19:49:27 would that be a lisp? 19:49:57 yawnt: maybe consider perl 19:50:24 nightfly: i did actually lol 19:51:15 Where is this coming from? 19:52:32 Euthy: i was wondering if a language 19:52:44 -!- jeppy` [~shh@cblmdm72-241-44-113.buckeyecom.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:53:12 that is made of *-expr but has syntactic sugar that hides that is a lisp... as i said.. a stupid question but i couldn't find an answer on google so yeah :'( 19:53:13 <|3b|> if you include 'uses s-expressions' in the definition of 'lisp' then no, otherwise yes 19:53:14 jeppy [~shh@cblmdm72-241-44-113.buckeyecom.net] has joined #lisp 19:54:22 -!- francisl [~anonymous@69.157.143.178] has quit [Quit: francisl] 19:54:23 <|3b|> or if you rephrase the question to 'lisps which have syntaxes other than s-expressions', CL might count since you can program the reader to have arbitrary syntax 19:54:37 oh that might be what i'm looking for 19:54:52 is there an example of how this arbitrary syntax can be exploited? 19:55:12 -!- yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.169] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:55:33 <|3b|> at the most extreme, you just write a parser for some other syntax, since CL semantics are defined in terms of lisp objects rather than a sequence of characters 19:56:03 ok so it is possible technically.. that's interesting 19:56:22 it's hardly surprising, parsers usually parser into ASTs anyway 19:58:14 true, haven't considered that 19:58:18 yawnt: https://github.com/stassats/closer-apl/blob/master/examples.lisp 19:58:38 haha, i was just thinking of that 19:58:53 oh neat 19:59:02 -!- nowhere_man_ [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-67-35.w92-141.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:59:05 nowhereman_ [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-12-134.w86-213.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 20:00:28 *stassats* plays with writing to the framebuffer from SBCL 20:00:42 (loop for i to 4227072 do (setf (sb-sys:sap-ref-8 *fb* i) (random 255))) looks neat 20:01:33 <|3b|> yawnt: also, when you say "*-expr" do you just mean s-expr, or are you including m-exprs? since m-exprs sound sort of like what you want (a syntactic sugar layer hiding the sexprs, if not quite one that looks like modern languages) 20:01:34 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-185-82-146.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:01:47 why did nobody mention dylan? 20:01:49 |3b|: m-exprs too 20:02:00 stassats: why are you writing to the framebuffer? 20:03:47 <|3b|> yawnt: i-expressions too? 20:03:50 |3b|: if you really wanna know my plan was like.. i wanna learn a bit about compilers, so i started thinking about a toy language.. and since i wanted to make it homoiconic i started to think of a syntax.. but the more i think about it, the more it looks like a lisp 20:04:18 <|3b|> in other words, is it only the part about someone naming a particular syntax 'foo-expression' that you object to? 20:04:39 |3b|: please note i know very little of lisps and such.. i'm only 1/10th through the SICP :\ 20:05:28 -!- Joreji [~thomas@87-188.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:05:35 anyway i thought why not having a s-expr like syntax under the hood and just hide it with a regular syntax? and i don't know how much of a heresy that is :( 20:05:59 <|3b|> that is a pretty common strategy for cl-hosted compilers 20:06:13 oh is it? 20:06:14 <|3b|> most of us just skip the other syntax and use s-expressions directly though 20:06:32 i don't feel that stupid anymore than :D 20:07:10 Joreji [~thomas@87-188.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 20:07:35 |3b|: if you have some examples of cl-hosted compilers it'd be amazing :D 20:07:35 <|3b|> particularly common with DSLs (domain specific languages), where you want some syntax optimized for a particular task 20:07:47 -!- pnpuff [~dioxirane@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has left #lisp 20:08:58 *|3b|* can't think of any at the moment 20:09:28 my dsl uses s-exps 20:09:44 users seem to grok that after some time. 20:09:59 |3b|: i'm gonna hang around here 20:10:07 if something comes to your mind please share :P 20:10:11 <|3b|> yeah, i can think of more DSLs that compile s-exprs to some other syntax than the other way around 20:10:23 well since it's #lisp 20:10:24 -!- daimrod [~daimrod@sbrk.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:10:27 i guess it's pretty logic lol 20:11:50 *|3b|* wonders if clpython compiles to cl code 20:12:26 bitonic [~user@027b68b8.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 20:14:14 mrSpec [~Spec@87-207-172-93.dynamic.chello.pl] has joined #lisp 20:14:14 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@87-207-172-93.dynamic.chello.pl] has quit [Changing host] 20:14:14 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 20:15:32 phserr [~phserrrr@189-71-124-21.user.veloxzone.com.br] has joined #lisp 20:15:35 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.99.220] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 20:16:18 |3b|: so you can actually just take advantage of cl's parser and implement your syntax on the top of that 20:16:22 amirite? 20:16:22 killerboy [~mateusz@217.17.38.43] has joined #lisp 20:16:30 <|3b|> more-or-less 20:16:40 <|3b|> depends on how similar your syntax is to CLs 20:16:55 wakeup_ [~wakeup@xdsl-89-0-65-186.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 20:16:57 hi 20:17:02 <|3b|> there are a few parts of cl syntax that are hard to change without just replacing the entire reader 20:17:10 i see 20:17:19 <|3b|> numbers and symbols in particular 20:17:20 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-3-211.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 20:17:44 |3b|: well i don't really care about my toy project to be based on common lisp 20:17:53 <|3b|> also depends on whether you can easily delimit the parts you want to read with some other syntax 20:17:54 i just really like some stuff of lisp and though of borrowing it 20:17:54 :D 20:20:08 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-185-82-146.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:20:30 yawnt: first, lisp is not at all like this. The real lisp as originally designed, is written like this: label[subst;[[x;y;s];[null[s]->nil;atom[s][y=s->x;1->s];1->combine[subst[x;y;first[s]];subst[x;y;rest[s]]]]]] 20:20:41 m-expr isn't it? 20:20:42 yawnt: s-exp are just an internal representation of that code. 20:20:44 Yep. 20:20:50 https://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/small-cl-pgms/m-expression/index.html 20:21:04 and https://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/small-cl-pgms/aim-8/index.html 20:21:12 1 instead of T, huh, i forgot that bit 20:21:22 and 0 for NIL. 20:21:31 Fortran was still strong in the minds. 20:21:38 francogrex [~user@109.134.228.67] has joined #lisp 20:21:56 messages? 20:22:27 pjb: oh well nothing new if you come from c-land (except c came later but yeah) 20:22:35 yawnt: what happened between the first interpreter that took s-expr and the implementation of the m-expr parser, is that macros were invented. 20:23:07 yawnt: so lisp programmers realized that it was easier to write macros if code was written as s-expr ie. as data, than if code was written as code. The rest is history. 20:24:56 yawnt: imagine that C programmers realized that it was easier to write macros in C, if programs were written as C data: {"if",{"=","a","b",0},{"printf","Equal\n",0},{"printf","different\n",0},0};. 20:25:10 daimrod [~daimrod@sbrk.org] has joined #lisp 20:25:18 pjb: yeah i get your point 20:25:33 pjb: i don't plan to drop s-expr really, just thinking of making them invisible, so i can still have macros 20:25:45 and it's not like i'm saying "It's better than lisp" lol.. it's just experimenting for fun 20:25:52 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-3-211.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:26:11 but that website you linked sure it's interesting O: 20:26:37 youlysses [~user@75-132-7-80.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 20:26:46 yawnt: but the point is that to make writing macros easy, you just do not want to make them invisible, but on the contrary, to make them explicitely visible! 20:27:12 Same as with parentheses. 20:27:35 pjb: i know but like 20:27:37 if 20:27:40 Parentheses serve only to make writing macro easy, in presence of variadic and unknown-adic operators. 20:27:51 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-3-211.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 20:27:56 macro = actually is (defmacro 20:28:00 wouldn't it not matter? 20:28:07 but yeah anyway you're probably right 20:28:25 What's (second 'macro = ) 20:28:33 Already you see how ridiculous it is. 20:28:33 who am i to stand against 30 years of computer science and people far more clever than me lol 20:28:56 compared to What's (second '(defmacro name (parameter) other stuff)). 20:28:57 pjb: that's assuming macro = is what gets passed to the program 20:29:03 i'm saying that that syntax doesn't really exist 20:29:11 what the parser etc see is just (defmacro ...) 20:29:21 what about the programmer? 20:29:49 In (second '(defmacro name (parameter) other stuff)) even someone who doesn't know what a computer is can answer "name". 20:29:53 -!- kmels [~kmels@frbg-5f732e21.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 20:29:58 right 20:30:05 that's semething i can't argue with 20:30:21 I think some languages nowadays have both a syntax and macros 20:30:31 rust might be one of them IIRC 20:30:42 You can add syntax to lisp with reader macros. 20:30:44 <_tca> dylan 20:30:44 http://www.rust-lang.org/ 20:31:02 But again, What's (first '#'x)? 20:31:27 compare with: What's (first '(function x)) ? 20:31:44 -!- axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-88-224.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.0] 20:31:53 dim: looks like ruby. 20:31:57 pjb: you are right BUT 20:31:59 doesn't seem that rust is what I remembered it being 20:32:02 For a programmer, the less syntax you have the better it is. 20:32:04 most programmers don't really care what's under the hood 20:32:12 reader macros are for end-users. 20:32:23 and if you do, you're probably going to figure out the step between sugar and s-expr 20:32:36 yawnt: no, you're wrong: programmers need to know what's under the hood. End users don't care. 20:32:40 not saying that's how it should be.. everyone should want to know what's under the hood 20:33:00 yawnt: now we may discuss the consequence of today users being paid for programming. 20:33:18 pjb: you're breaching an open door 20:33:31 i already like lisp (except i don't know it well) 20:33:49 but i don't want my syntax to look lisp-y because most people are afraid of that 20:34:13 which is kinda stupid as an argument 20:34:27 Write a program that takes lisp sexps and produce a whatchamacallit-y syntax. 20:34:44 i know where this is going 20:34:49 i'm just gonna adopt s-expr lol 20:35:02 If you have cow-orkers who insist on modifying programs written in that whatchamacallit-y syntax, write a parser to convert it back to lisp. 20:35:24 coderarinux [~coderarit@ip98-166-82-125.hr.hr.cox.net] has joined #lisp 20:35:28 pjb: i'm a student 20:35:43 yawnt: your concerns are strange, not like anybody is going to use your programming language anyhow 20:35:45 pjb: and my coworkers use js :P, it's just a personal project for fun 20:35:48 -!- SanderM [~quassel@vhe-400104.sshn.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:35:50 stassats: me! 20:36:02 stassats: but yeah i guess you're right 20:36:09 axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-88-224.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:36:10 i mean, s/guess/am sure/ 20:36:10 so, you should base it on what you're not afraid, not others 20:36:14 stassats: ima use it 20:36:21 lol coderarinux 20:36:24 that's what I said 20:36:34 yawnt: http://caterwauljs.org/ behold. 20:36:37 coderarinux: these guys just convinced me s-expr is the way to go 20:36:42 stassats: also, other people might use it, in my situation. But I'll know them in person 20:36:48 yawnt: i was already fine with it 20:37:16 coderarinux: so s-expr it is then 20:37:47 Bike: lookin 20:38:00 zolk3ri [~Zol1ka@unaffiliated/zolk3ri] has joined #lisp 20:38:40 yawnt: check parenscript and jwacs. 20:38:48 parenscript i kenw 20:38:52 also i had a look at wisp today 20:39:02 let's see jwacs 20:39:08 -!- Bike [~Glossina@63-229-134-7.ptld.qwest.net] has left #lisp 20:39:15 pjb: but really i'd like to stay away from js as much as possible 20:39:53 mcclim on the framebuffer, could be cool 20:41:42 pnpuff [~dioxirane@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 20:43:08 so i guess the next step is learn some theory about lisp 20:43:10 suggested readings? 20:43:20 minion: please tell yawnt about PCL 20:43:20 yawnt: have a look at PCL: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 20:44:42 for logging needs, I've heard about log4cl, would you recommend something else? 20:45:13 stassats: does it also treat theory or just "code" 20:45:14 ? 20:45:21 what theory? 20:45:24 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 20:45:30 stassats: about lisp 20:45:39 there's no theory about lisp 20:45:41 i mean, there are always theories behind a programming language 20:45:42 no? 20:45:45 you just write code in it 20:45:51 ok ._. 20:45:53 -!- solvip [~solvip@89-160-141-139.du.xdsl.is] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 20:46:14 perhaps you're using the word "theory" in a different meaning 20:46:27 i'll read the book and get back at you 20:46:28 :D 20:46:34 good 20:46:35 -!- francogrex [~user@109.134.228.67] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:47:27 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 20:48:17 foeniks [~fevon@p5083FC41.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:52:51 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-3-211.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:53:27 -!- cdidd [~cdidd@176.14.247.181] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:53:31 mstevens [~mstevens@81.2.103.20] has joined #lisp 20:53:31 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@81.2.103.20] has quit [Changing host] 20:53:31 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 20:54:16 -!- foeniks [~fevon@p5083FC41.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:54:27 foeniks [~fevon@p5083FC41.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:54:42 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-3-211.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 20:56:52 rabbitoid [47683a41@gateway/web/freenode/ip.71.104.58.65] has joined #lisp 20:57:04 ISF [~ivan@189.61.223.79] has joined #lisp 20:58:36 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:58:58 spaceships [~spaceship@host-72-174-137-126.msl-mt.client.bresnan.net] has joined #lisp 21:00:16 -!- add^_ [~add^_@m37-3-22-251.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: The Garbage Collector got me...] 21:00:32 yawnt: cltl2 counts as theory; amop too. 21:00:41 imo 21:00:42 cltl2? 21:00:43 add^_ [~add^_@m37-3-22-251.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 21:00:56 oh ok 21:01:01 google solved the acronym 21:02:13 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-71-237-234-93.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:02:36 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-3-211.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:03:04 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-71-237-234-93.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:03:08 -!- svetlyak40wt [~svetlyak4@broadband-95-84-141-55.nationalcablenetworks.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:03:08 dous [~dous@unaffiliated/dous] has joined #lisp 21:03:38 -!- bitonic [~user@027b68b8.bb.sky.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:03:41 minion: cltl2? 21:03:42 cltl2: No definition was found in the first 5 lines of http://www.cliki.net/cltl2 21:04:38 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-71-237-234-93.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:05:24 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-71-237-234-93.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:08:43 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-71-237-234-93.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:09:29 -!- hydan [~user@ip-89-102-13-27.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:09:29 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-71-237-234-93.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:17:38 dous_ [~dous@unaffiliated/dous] has joined #lisp 21:19:27 -!- dous [~dous@unaffiliated/dous] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 21:19:51 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:20:51 androcles [~jeff@ip70-187-173-84.oc.oc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 21:21:04 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f757451.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 21:21:18 -!- weie [~eie@softbank221078042071.bbtec.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 21:22:08 bitonic [~user@027b68b8.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 21:23:37 tcr1 [~tcr@84-72-21-32.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 21:24:10 mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.99.220] has joined #lisp 21:25:01 cabaire [~nobody@xdsl-78-35-185-50.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 21:27:09 -!- sdemarre [~serge@122.75-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:28:36 spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 21:28:54 zacts [~lcc@unaffiliated/zacts] has joined #lisp 21:29:49 -!- spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:31:23 Farzad [~farzadbek@46.225.91.49] has joined #lisp 21:31:24 -!- basho___ [~petrosil@norma.uberspace.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:33:48 -!- spion_ is now known as spion 21:33:54 hi guys, i just uploaded a torrent including my cl related books here: https://thepiratebay.se/torrent/8128380/Common_Lisp_Ebook_Collection just in case it's useful for someone out there. 21:37:38 lol 21:38:00 skanev [~aquarius@78.128.55.20] has joined #lisp 21:38:38 huh 21:39:25 you what 21:39:53 ? 21:41:40 sudden common lisp vibe here 21:42:21 i like that :P it used to have more users 21:43:06 dude, you gotta seed it or no one will be able to download it 21:43:32 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@217.17.38.43] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:43:44 i am seeding to 6 ppl right now about 70kb per second that all i can afford sry :P 21:44:00 ah 21:44:13 i suppose it'll take a while before anyone finishes getting it then 21:44:18 -!- Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:45:13 -!- pnpuff [~dioxirane@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 21:45:18 i'll try seeding for as long as my currently booted OS is up :) 21:45:33 ^^ 21:45:48 Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 21:46:00 -!- yawnt [~yawnt@net-188-153-96-249.cust.dsl.teletu.it] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:47:07 killerboy [~mateusz@217.17.38.43] has joined #lisp 21:47:09 -!- androcles [~jeff@ip70-187-173-84.oc.oc.cox.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:47:58 sepisultrum [g7b73ld36k@hcl-club.lu] has joined #lisp 21:48:37 How can I give a nickname to a third party package? 21:48:48 -!- Demosthenex [~Demosthen@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:48:54 (rename-package package package '(nickname)) 21:48:56 androcles [~jeff@ip70-187-173-84.oc.oc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 21:49:20 -!- youlysses [~user@75-132-7-80.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:49:42 bitonic` [~user@b0fe422b.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 21:49:55 Denommus [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/denommus] has joined #lisp 21:50:26 does anyone here do gamedev in lisp? I want to quit from lispbuilder-sdl, and searching for another engine. Any recommendations? 21:50:37 oh, that was easy. Thanks! I was looking to create a new package with the new name 21:50:41 Demosthenex [~Demosthen@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 21:51:10 <_tca> Denommus: there's a lispgames channel 21:51:23 oh but that's #lisp... now everything makes sense 21:51:27 #lispgames 21:51:50 -!- bitonic [~user@027b68b8.bb.sky.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:51:52 pnathan` [~user@98.145.116.195] has joined #lisp 21:51:55 DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@1.150.212.42] has joined #lisp 21:52:30 -!- pnathan [~user@98.145.116.195] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:53:36 tx 21:56:16 -!- bitonic` [~user@b0fe422b.bb.sky.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:59:01 archonix [~unknown@78.90.30.16] has joined #lisp 22:01:09 -!- nop0x07bc [~pon1980@h208n7-haes-a12.ias.bredband.telia.com] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.0] 22:01:11 basho___ [~petrosil@norma.uberspace.de] has joined #lisp 22:02:57 -!- Denommus [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/denommus] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:03:10 -!- stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-230-044.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 22:04:35 bitonic` [~user@b0fe422b.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 22:05:51 rbarraud__ [~rbarraud@125-239-32-133.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 22:08:55 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:09:35 -!- aceluck [~aceluck@123.136.106.38] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:10:24 -!- Corvidium [~cosman246@c-24-56-228-105.customer.broadstripe.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:13:28 what's the standard solution to create a cartesian product. Is there a canonical library that implements this? 22:13:44 I'm currently using nested iterate 22:14:25 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-84-254.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:16:23 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@c-24-12-190-29.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:18:39 kennyd [~kennyd@78-1-140-77.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 22:19:07 -!- androcles [~jeff@ip70-187-173-84.oc.oc.cox.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:19:57 sepisultrum: ALEXANDRIA:MAP-PRODUCT iterates over cartesian product (of lists), but it's up to you to collect & save items if it's what you want. 22:20:04 -!- akovalen` is now known as akovalenko 22:22:13 akovalenko: yeah thats not too bad. Thanks 22:23:07 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 22:25:23 alexandria should be required reading for all lisp programmers :) 22:25:36 i've ended up baking my own poor versions of so many things :( 22:26:05 and how would I best coerce (list 'A 1) into a string "A1". concatenate does not want to convert the symbol to a string. Is format the best solution? I'd like it to work for as many types as possible. 22:26:48 -!- KingsKnighted [~quassel@c-174-52-149-13.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:27:26 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-173-246.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:27:43 -!- rdd [~rdd@c83-250-110-128.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:27:47 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-96-240-138-223.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 22:29:43 guaqua: You're right. I tend to forget to use it too often 22:29:48 -!- foeniks [~fevon@p5083FC41.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:30:03 seangrove: format is a good solution for that 22:32:00 sellout- [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:32:20 i'd also solve that with format. dunno what the caveats might be 22:33:22 -!- rabbitoid [47683a41@gateway/web/freenode/ip.71.104.58.65] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:35:33 guaqua: I suspected that it might be excessively slow because it's so general. But I tend to care too much about stupid optimizations 22:37:22 -!- add^_ [~add^_@m37-3-22-251.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: The Garbage Collector got me...] 22:37:49 sepisultrum: which optimizations? Those of you knocking code out the door? 22:38:38 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@1.150.212.42] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 22:38:45 sepisultrum: if not those, you probably use the wrong definition of optimization -- unless you have actual production issues. 22:39:54 Kenjin [~kenjin@bl16-72-198.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 22:41:45 I'm considering using clack for some webbased stuff. Does anyone here have experience with it? (website: http://clacklisp.org/) 22:44:38 -!- puchacz [~puchacz@46-65-36-47.zone16.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:45:04 -!- cmatei [~cmatei@95.76.25.200] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:45:30 cmatei [~cmatei@95.76.25.200] has joined #lisp 22:46:51 -!- nha [~prefect@koln-5d816d1e.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:47:14 rdd [~rdd@c83-250-110-128.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 22:50:08 prxq: looks nice, especially the request parameter parsing. 22:50:14 nha [~prefect@koln-5d816d1e.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 22:50:20 prxq: however, no experience here... 22:50:56 ehu: which, if any, web framework do you use? 22:51:25 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:51:39 prxq: I don't use any at this time. However, if I did, I'd be looking at servlet containers to plug ABCL onto. 22:52:13 ehu: makes a lot of sense :-) 22:52:45 ehu: how is the numerical performance in abcl? Things like multiplying double-float matrices, for example? 22:53:31 bitonic`` [~user@b0fc07e4.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 22:53:35 -!- zacts [~lcc@unaffiliated/zacts] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:53:53 prxq: could be better: currently every float/double needs boxing. I've been working on unboxing and passing unboxed values around, 22:53:59 but that's rather incomplete. 22:54:34 i see. I've heard java can deliver some shockingly good performance for that kind of thing 22:54:58 so, I'd expect general performance in that area to be poor. However, I have an application which does some heavy calculations. 22:55:14 -!- bitonic` [~user@b0fe422b.bb.sky.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:55:15 and it doesn't really seem to suffer so much that the user gets annoyed by it. 22:55:57 java can actually deliver rather good performance once the JIT kicks in and starts compiling to byte code. 22:56:16 that's after some time. say 10 minutes of actual heavy program operation. 22:56:56 prxq: I've used it, but just for very simple website. It is usable ;) 22:56:58 so, Java is a good environment for long running apps, like servlets and webservices, but less so for desktop applications. 22:57:32 (although my application actually *is* a desktop app) 22:57:44 ehu: may I ask what it does? 22:58:12 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@78-1-140-77.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:58:16 prxq: sure. it helps financial controllers and business controllers to "develop" their budgets. 22:58:42 the application tracks multiple dimensions and records all changes from one version to another. 22:59:04 then later it can show the user (financial controller) the impact of the changes on the model. 22:59:16 ok. what are the computational primitives that eat cpu cycles? 22:59:20 this is much better than the usual 200 versions of the same excel sheet that gets saved. 22:59:39 ehu: I imagine :-) 22:59:58 The usual operations are addition and multiplication. 23:00:28 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 23:00:30 ok, but not matrix matrix multiplication, monte-carlo, things like that... 23:00:32 the history gets recorded as a list of changes, from which "model state" is calculated when required 23:00:36 nope. 23:00:43 ok 23:00:57 assoc and hash lookup. 23:01:03 multiplication, addition. 23:01:07 that's basically it. 23:01:38 actually quite a bit of division as well. 23:02:07 but not as heavy as matrix mult or monte-carlo. 23:02:40 markov chains? controllers don't know what they are. 23:03:02 do you work as a consultant? 23:03:07 yes. 23:03:54 I'm working as a business consultant and applications designer/developer. 23:03:58 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.99.220] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:04:00 independently. 23:05:05 -!- cabaire [~nobody@xdsl-78-35-185-50.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:05:09 kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-10-67.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 23:05:10 prxq: are you asking these webframework questions for your work? 23:06:13 ok guys im goin off, tell me somebody got the whole torrent and is going to seed. 2:35am and im sleepy :P 23:06:35 ehu: more on a hobbyist level. I'm a numerical analyst, basic command line is what I use most. 23:06:44 repl, actually 23:06:52 mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-96-240-138-223.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:07:22 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@84-72-21-32.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:07:30 if it turns out to be easy, I might make some interface for my work code, just for convenience. 23:08:21 -!- user52882 [~user52882@94-194-53-166.zone8.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:08:54 ok. then ABCL will probably be mostly not a good match with your work. That's too bad. 23:09:12 well, fortunately, there are plenty other CLs available. 23:09:57 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-96-240-138-223.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 23:10:01 indeed. 23:10:04 -!- Farzad [~farzadbek@46.225.91.49] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:10:33 well, I've been using lisp for NA for nearly a decade now. Has been very nice and productive. 23:10:38 -!- HG` [~HG@wprt-5d834930.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: HG`] 23:11:41 prxq: you haven't gotten bored that whole time? 23:12:54 not at all! 23:13:40 -!- bitonic`` [~user@b0fc07e4.bb.sky.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 23:13:54 i'm really excited to get into this lisp world 23:13:58 sounds great 23:14:13 it absolutely is 23:14:17 ok. bedtime on this side of the planet. ttyl. 23:18:12 -!- archonix [~unknown@78.90.30.16] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:19:01 -!- ehu [ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 23:21:50 DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@123.208.98.166] has joined #lisp 23:22:47 -!- [SLB] is now known as [SLB]` 23:30:54 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@91-157-48-10.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Quit: Must not waste too much time here...] 23:35:35 -!- fasta [~xchat@xs8.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:35:37 -!- Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:35:50 fasta [~xchat@xs8.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 23:36:50 -!- rbarraud__ [~rbarraud@125-239-32-133.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 23:44:13 -!- agumonkey [~agu@167.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:48:26 dim: you can't call (rename-package "P1" "P1"): it's undefined behavior. 23:48:48 dim: therefore you can't call (rename-package "P1" "P1" :nicknames '("NEW-NICK")). 23:49:44 Try (com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.package:add-nickname "P1" "NEW-NICK") instead. 23:50:51 prxq: format is a horrible solution for that: it won't give the same result everywhere!!! 23:52:11 prxq: (loop for *print-case* in '(:upcase :downcase) append (loop for *print-base* in '(2 10) collect (format nil "~{~A~}" '(a 4)))) --> ("A100" "A4" "a100" "a4") 23:52:24 worstadmin [~worst@174.141.213.51] has joined #lisp 23:55:39 pyx [~pyx@d24-141-100-35.home.cgocable.net] has joined #lisp 23:55:46 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:55:52 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@217.17.38.43] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:56:18 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp