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[~huangjs@114.91.247.108] has joined #lisp 03:05:14 -!- zulu_inuoe_ [~quassel@184.89.111.53] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:05:50 zulu_inuoe_ [~quassel@184.89.111.53] has joined #lisp 03:08:12 yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.169] has joined #lisp 03:09:24 -!- Tarential [~Tarential@50.116.14.156] has quit [Excess Flood] 03:09:45 Tarential [~Tarential@li472-156.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 03:10:14 -!- huangjs [~huangjs@114.91.247.108] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 03:11:19 cfy` [~ilisp@220.191.186.26] has joined #lisp 03:11:31 -!- Tarential [~Tarential@li472-156.members.linode.com] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 03:11:54 Tarential [~Tarential@li472-156.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 03:16:03 vlion [~vlion@66-87-25-67.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 03:18:33 -!- seangrov` [~user@c-71-202-126-17.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:21:13 k0001_ [~k0001@host214.186-109-179.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 03:21:18 huangjs [~huangjs@114.91.247.108] has joined #lisp 03:22:50 eli [~eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #lisp 03:22:50 -!- eli [~eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Changing host] 03:22:50 eli [~eli@racket/eli] has joined #lisp 03:24:08 svetlyak40wt [~svetlyak4@broadband-95-84-141-55.nationalcablenetworks.ru] has joined #lisp 03:24:36 -!- k0001 [~k0001@host150.186-109-111.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 03:24:53 catmtking [~catmtking@108-224-122-111.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:29:19 I was on earlier asking about how Common Lisp compilers typically embed lexical variable name information so that the debugger can allow the user to inspect variables in activation frames using the variable names. 03:30:07 pjb gave me a very interesting way to think about it just before I had to run off to a meeting. 03:30:20 He said "So if you have a function E(f)->e, you can use m(E(f)(v)) to find f(v).". 03:30:54 And followed with: "e = environment, v = variable, f = frame. m is some mapping your compiler implements from environments to frames. You need a reverse mapping, or at least, to be able to find e from f: E." 03:31:33 -!- Guthur [~user@eth2845.sa.adsl.internode.on.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:31:46 pjb isn't online at the moment - is anyone else familiar with this way of thinking about the problem? 03:32:34 I ask because right now I have a bug in compiled code and if I could inspect the variables in the activation frames properly I could figure out what is going wrong. 03:32:46 breakds [~breakds@ppp-70-226-163-93.dsl.mdsnwi.ameritech.net] has joined #lisp 03:33:10 it's just a way of saying that you could use a function that takes an activation frame to an environment 03:33:41 I think the idea is that whenever I compile code to generate an activation frame, I enhance a function E(f) that maps the activation frame to debugging information. 03:34:02 like ok, say you have a compiled function with three local variables, and it breaks so you want to see what's happening 03:34:28 Bike: It's an interesting way of thinking about it because I was getting all tied up with where do I stick a pointer to debugging information and how do I scope it. 03:34:30 if you attach to the frame enough information to figure out what function you're in, you can look up debug information stored in the function (like say the names of the variables). 03:35:01 then E(f) would be make_environment(get_names(function_of(frame)),variables(frame)), so to speak 03:36:40 Bike: Once the activation frame is destroyed when it goes out of scope I need to delete the mapping of frame to variables(frame) and function_of(frame) or they will overflow memory as the program runs. 03:37:18 that doesn't matter, you only want to debug while you're in the dynamic context of the call, yeah? 03:38:34 Bike: Yes, I'm wrestling with how to implement the mapping function_of(frame) and variables(frame). 03:38:48 well the variables are on the stack aren't they 03:39:14 without optimization, i guess 03:39:42 Bike: Yes, in a linked list of arrays of pointers. Each activation frame is an array of pointers and a pointer to the next activation frame. 03:40:00 Bike: I don't have much optimization at this stage. 03:40:06 much == any 03:40:41 phserr [~phserrrr@189-71-124-21.user.veloxzone.com.br] has joined #lisp 03:41:07 Let's say I enter a LET scope - like (let ((x 1) (y 2))...) 03:42:21 The compiler generates code that allocates an activation frame with two entries and points it to a parent activation frame (for instance the activation frame of the functions closure). 03:43:09 At that stage maybe I should invoke a debug.variable-names(f,'(x y)) 03:43:23 -!- vlion [~vlion@66-87-25-67.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi] 03:43:37 That will associate the LET activation frame "f" to the two variable names in the order they appear in the activation frame. 03:43:54 yeah, that's what i was trying to get at. 03:44:23 Now when we leave the LET scope I should call something like debug.forget-variable-names(f). 03:45:12 Otherwise if I iterate over that LET 1000 times there will be 1000 mappings of f1->'(x y) to f1000->'(x y) 03:45:28 wait, wait. what i meant was, in the frame you keep another pointer to information about the frame (say, what function it corresponds to, if it does) and then that thing in turn has the debug information like names. 03:45:52 Or wait, maybe I shouldn't be allocating a new activation frame every time. 03:46:29 Or I may be misremembering whether I allocate a new activation frame every time. Let me look at my code. 03:47:47 If I sound unsure it's because I'm moving really fast and I loose track of what I've done sometimes. Writing a compiler means juggling a lot of balls at the same time. 03:48:56 -!- tali713 [~user@c-76-17-236-129.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:49:33 -!- huangjs [~huangjs@114.91.247.108] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 03:49:38 Wait, it has to allocate an activation frame every time in the case of recursion. 03:50:43 -!- replcated [~user@24-217-97-210.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:51:00 tali713 [~user@c-76-17-236-129.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:51:01 dartos [~AndChat86@c-71-57-159-106.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:51:11 Hello all 03:51:13 Bike: This is helpful. I'll think on it, look at my code and and come back with more specific questions if/when I have them. Thank you. 03:51:24 ok. 03:53:04 If this is for debugging, you might consider keeping a log instead of frames. 03:54:54 I'm pretty new to lisp and I was just wondering, does lisp have a compiler or is it all interpreted? 03:55:09 Zhivago: What do you mean by a log - I have a very sophisticated logging facility built in that generates nested log files using sexps and I wrote a folding viewer that lets me expand and contract nested logging output. 03:55:17 A CL implementation must perform compilation, but it may not be what you expect. 03:55:26 Essentially it is up to the implementation. 03:55:42 dartos: common lisp must have ... yeah what Zhivago said 03:56:11 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-96-240-138-223.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 03:56:14 -!- Tarential [~Tarential@li472-156.members.linode.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 03:56:15 for that matter, replace compiler with interpreter. 03:56:34 dartos: I wrote a common lisp interpreter and a compiler. The interpreter is very, very slow and only useful for bootstrapping the compiler. 03:56:35 Tarential [~Tarential@li472-156.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 03:57:36 drmeister: Well, instead of keeping dynamic state which you destructively update, you might keep a log of the transitions -- a replayable transcript. 03:57:39 Hm... I see.. I guess I'll just read up on it more then 03:57:47 Thanks 03:57:51 drmeister: But it depends on your requirements. 03:59:33 Zhivago: Background - I'm writing a new CL compiler - I'm wrestling with how to implement a debugger that lets you inspect stack frames that looks like other CL debuggers. 03:59:40 clhs compile 03:59:40 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_cmp.htm 03:59:43 clhs eval 03:59:44 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_eval.htm 03:59:47 dartos: ^ 03:59:47 drmeister, did you look at DWARF ? 04:00:10 The log of transitions idea sounds interesting though, how does it work? 04:00:34 zejedi [~zejedi@108.222.222.199] has joined #lisp 04:01:08 Well, you'd have an entry to bind and an entry to unbind and whatever other events you're interested in. 04:01:27 Then you can replay the transcript to reproduce the same environment at any point. 04:01:54 -!- tali713 [~user@c-76-17-236-129.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:02:02 Fare: Yes, I generate some DWARF metadata but I don't know how to access it. The GDB debugger after version 7.0 is supposed to make use of it but I'm on a Mac and Apple froze GDB at version 6.3.5 due to licensing issues and I have wasted hours trying to get GDB 7.x working on OS X. 04:02:48 LLDB is a new debugger developed using the LLVM framework - it is also supposed to use the DWARF metadata - darned if I know how to get it to do that though. 04:03:04 This is the problem with being on the bleeding edge of development. 04:03:27 tali713 [~user@c-76-17-236-129.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:03:45 Zhivago: Do you log every variable value change? 04:03:46 -!- myx [~myx@pppoe-194-164-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:04:17 If you're interested in those, sure. 04:04:47 My lisp debugger lets me generate a backtrace with source code and source/line/column information and move up and down the execution stack. 04:05:14 My stack includes interpreted CL frames, compiled CL frames and C++ frames. 04:05:47 I can inspect variables by name in the interpreted CL frames. I can dump the compiled CL frame activation frames and I can twiddle my thumbs in the C++ frames. 04:06:06 -!- zulu_inuoe_ [~quassel@184.89.111.53] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:07:22 The web page http://llvm.org/docs/SourceLevelDebugging.html describes how to implement source code debugging in LLVM using DWARF. 04:07:38 drmeister, you might also give a look at the omniscient debugger -- it'd be cool if your implementation had this ability. 04:08:20 huangjs [~huangjs@114.91.247.108] has joined #lisp 04:08:24 It describes how to format DWARF metadata and associate it with instructions to manage scope. 04:09:18 It provides two intrinsic calls %llvm.dbg.declare(metadata,metadata) that allows you to associate a memory location with metadata that describes the name and type of a variable. 04:09:45 I don't understand how it works though - the documentation is thin. 04:10:11 Omniscient huh? I'll look it up. 04:11:07 ODB sounds cool. 04:11:39 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:13:01 Sounds like a lot of overhead though - record all state changes as the program runs. 04:13:39 It depends on what you want to do. 04:14:15 I'm listening to the google talk on ODB. 04:15:31 francisl [~anonymous@69.157.141.151] has joined #lisp 04:16:36 __class__ [~class@99.105.56.217] has joined #lisp 04:16:36 -!- dartos [~AndChat86@c-71-57-159-106.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:17:39 -!- Praise [~Fat@unaffiliated/praise] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:18:09 tali713_ [~tali713@2001:0:53aa:64c:1c50:7372:b3ee:137e] has joined #lisp 04:18:39 -!- tali713 [~user@c-76-17-236-129.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 04:18:39 -!- tali713_ is now known as tali713 04:20:52 normanrichards [~normanric@70.114.215.220] has joined #lisp 04:20:54 youlysses [~user@75-132-21-229.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 04:21:25 Praise [~Fat@unaffiliated/praise] has joined #lisp 04:23:08 -!- LiamH [~none@96.231.218.61] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:24:11 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 04:27:49 -!- sambio [~sambio@190.57.227.109] has quit [] 04:36:20 joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@086.112-30-64.ftth.swbr.surewest.net] has joined #lisp 04:38:11 -!- youlysses [~user@75-132-21-229.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:39:09 youlysses [~user@75-132-21-229.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 04:40:16 seangrov` [~user@c-71-202-126-17.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:40:28 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:41:47 -!- bananagram [~bot@c-98-198-236-112.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:42:15 -!- sellout- [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:43:30 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 04:43:34 -!- huangjs [~huangjs@114.91.247.108] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 04:44:46 -!- seangrov` [~user@c-71-202-126-17.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 04:45:12 -!- zejedi [~zejedi@108.222.222.199] has quit [] 04:47:26 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@92.47.188.26] has joined #lisp 04:47:26 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@92.47.188.26] has quit [Changing host] 04:47:26 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 04:47:38 -!- yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.169] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 04:49:27 oh yeah, the initial information gathering is dog slow. 04:49:50 but afterwards, you can navigate the trace and zoom into the bug 04:50:10 so you run once at 1/10th the speed, instead of 30 times at full speed. 04:50:35 still a big win, I'd say. 04:52:08 -!- milosn [~milosn@user-5AF50134.broadband.tesco.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 04:53:53 DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@1.129.228.229] has 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[~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 07:46:00 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@70.114.215.220] has quit [] 07:52:35 -!- Ralt [~Ralt@ip1.smh.prowebce.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 07:52:53 -!- huangjs [~huangjs@199.180.254.36] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:52:53 -!- browndawg [~browndawg@117.214.173.142] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 07:53:08 huangjs [~huangjs@199.180.254.36] has joined #lisp 07:54:55 -!- spacefrogg^ is now known as spacefrogg 07:55:54 -!- lemonodor [~jwiseman@cpe-75-83-152-209.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: lemonodor] 07:56:36 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 07:57:08 -!- ASau [~user@176.4.52.241] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 07:57:09 browndawg [~browndawg@117.214.170.161] has joined #lisp 07:59:11 -!- [SLB] is now known as [SLB]` 07:59:20 ubii [~ubii@184.21.196.19] has joined #lisp 07:59:20 -!- ubii [~ubii@184.21.196.19] has quit [Changing host] 07:59:20 ubii [~ubii@unaffiliated/ubii] has joined #lisp 07:59:29 hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has joined #lisp 07:59:29 -!- hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has quit [Changing host] 07:59:29 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 08:00:55 yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.169] has joined #lisp 08:01:24 Denommus [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/denommus] has joined #lisp 08:01:36 lemonodor [~jwiseman@cpe-75-83-152-209.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 08:03:56 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:04:00 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-167-227.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 08:04:19 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 08:05:04 Viaken [~david@projecthq.biz] has joined #lisp 08:05:10 Good morning! 08:05:40 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 08:06:17 drmeister: how is hacking going on the compiler stuff? 08:06:50 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 08:07:12 hi 08:07:23 the strangest thing is happening on lispbuilder-sdl-gfx 08:07:57 (sdl-gfx:zoom-surface 2 2 :surface image) is returning nil 08:08:52 -!- browndawg [~browndawg@117.214.170.161] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 08:10:26 I think this just made me quit from common lisp for game devel, unless there is a better library than lispbuilder-sdl 08:11:13 Denommus: why? it isn't cl's fault .. 08:12:13 what is image? 08:12:44 image is non-nil. If I don't try to call zoom-surface, I can draw the image just fine 08:12:48 varjagg [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 08:13:28 I'm not saying that I'll quit cl, only cl for gamedev. If the only graphics library can't zoom properly, there isn't much I can do with it 08:13:38 well, that isn't a useful answer, what is image _exactly_? 08:13:38 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-90.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 08:13:54 one moment 08:14:13 # 08:14:16 lemonodor_ [~jwiseman@mobile-166-137-177-014.mycingular.net] has joined #lisp 08:14:30 that seem sensible 08:14:56 as I said, I can draw it just fine. I just can't zoom it 08:15:05 terrible docs.. 08:15:36 when calling directly through sldb, it returns nil 08:16:12 maybe it is a bug, you could debug it. 08:17:45 will try, then 08:17:51 -!- lemonodor [~jwiseman@cpe-75-83-152-209.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:17:51 -!- lemonodor_ is now known as lemonodor 08:19:04 -!- snits [~snits@174-17-107-194.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 08:20:05 Denommus: that is quite rude, i've never used sdl-builder, but if you want my services, feel free to contact me in private, i'm not cheap. 08:21:09 browndawg [~browndawg@117.201.84.238] has joined #lisp 08:21:14 -!- browndawg [~browndawg@117.201.84.238] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 08:21:26 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:21:44 browndawg [~browndawg@117.201.84.238] has joined #lisp 08:21:53 zorkmoid: sorry, I didn't mean to be rude. Thank you for your help 08:25:08 -!- tcr [~tcr@84-72-21-32.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 08:25:19 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 08:26:35 -!- juvi [~jukka@a88-114-62-93.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Quit: juvi] 08:28:57 uh, found another engine that seems to work 08:29:01 blackthorn 08:30:02 -!- nostoi [~nostoi@47.Red-79-157-250.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Seite geschlossen] 08:31:16 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 08:32:02 kmels__ [~kmels@frbg-5d84fcb8.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 08:32:04 rmathews_ [~roshan@122.165.89.11] has joined #lisp 08:32:27 huangjs_ [~huangjs@199.180.254.36] has joined #lisp 08:32:37 snowylike [~sn@91-67-171-156-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 08:32:47 -!- rmathews [~roshan@122.165.89.11] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:32:48 -!- rmathews_ is now known as rmathews 08:32:49 -!- huangjs [~huangjs@199.180.254.36] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:34:22 it probobly is just some bug, try an older version, or fix the bug, more people will benefit from that. 08:35:50 zorkmoid: I'll try to fix the bug, yes. But I'm a beginner on the common lisp world, I don't understand really that well how sldb works 08:36:10 zorkmoid: but I'll try to figure the bug out with enough time 08:36:47 Denommus: i don't know what sldb is... but cl has lots of nice debugging facilities. 08:37:05 sldb is slime's debugger, I guess 08:37:48 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 08:38:23 ah 08:38:33 i use cmucl normally, sbcl at times .. 08:42:00 slime is Emacs' extension for CL development. I configured mine to work on top of SBCL 08:42:23 slime doesn't have support for stepping into, sadly. Yeah, I must learn to debug on pure sbcl 08:42:29 but now I must sleep 08:42:37 good... morning 08:42:55 been meaning to switch to sbcl for some time, but i'm used to cmucl.. 08:44:03 -!- Denommus [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/denommus] has quit [Quit: going to sleep] 08:47:05 svetlyak40wt [~svetlyak4@dhcp175-196-red3.yandex.net] has joined #lisp 08:47:53 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:48:47 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 08:48:53 k0001_ [~k0001@host225.186-109-99.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 08:52:06 -!- k0001 [~k0001@host190.181-1-165.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:53:24 tcr [~tcr@77-56-40-229.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 08:54:45 xcombelle [~xcombelle@AToulouse-551-1-65-92.w92-146.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 08:54:58 juvi [~jukka@a88-114-62-93.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 08:55:54 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-90.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:56:54 -!- paolo_m [~user@2-228-95-110.ip190.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:57:01 paolo_m [~user@2-228-95-110.ip190.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 08:57:16 hkBst_ [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has joined #lisp 08:57:16 -!- hkBst_ [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has quit [Changing host] 08:57:16 hkBst_ [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 08:57:24 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 08:57:30 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-90.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 08:58:10 k-stz [~user@HSI-KBW-095-208-250-027.hsi5.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 09:00:47 -!- kmels__ [~kmels@frbg-5d84fcb8.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:00:50 -!- Demosthenex [~Demosthen@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:00:50 *sigh* I post to openmcl-devel to try to help the discussion about package stuff, and get told that my message is subject to approval (i.e. it will never get through) 09:01:00 my wisdom, lost to the world 09:01:05 -!- lemonodor [~jwiseman@mobile-166-137-177-014.mycingular.net] has quit [Quit: lemonodor] 09:01:08 Demosthenex [~Demosthen@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 09:02:18 -!- Bike [~Glossina@63-229-134-7.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: quit] 09:02:22 :( 09:02:56 -!- hkBst_ [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:06:50 texcan [~texcan@37.244.161.139] has joined #lisp 09:07:34 -!- snowylike [~sn@91-67-171-156-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:08:17 drmeister: actually, you may reuse memory for activation frames if you implement tail call optimization. But then indeed, it means you cannot debug the frames of the outer calls, since their activation frames are overwritten by the current frame. That's why with high debug levels, it may be worth to disable TCO. <04:49:38> Wait, it has to allocate an activation frame every time in the case of recursion. 09:15:54 drmeister: another googletalk video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xpI8hIgOyko 09:17:01 ogamita: hmm... it might be interesting to reuse tracing for debuggin TCO... 09:18:05 -!- hydan [~user@ip-89-102-13-27.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:23:27 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-90.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:25:55 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-90.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 09:26:16 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:27:40 -!- b1rkh0ff [~b1rkh0ff@178.77.2.66] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 09:29:15 -!- worstadmin [~worst@174.141.213.16] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:30:17 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 09:31:18 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-90.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 09:33:13 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-90.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 09:33:29 -!- em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:37:06 hkBst__ [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has joined #lisp 09:40:20 myx [~myx@pppoe-194-164-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has joined #lisp 09:40:45 -!- Dalek_Baldwin [~Adium@71-84-34-33.dhcp.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:41:40 -!- hkBst__ [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 09:42:18 hkBst__ [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has joined #lisp 09:42:22 foo123 [5f09ee9f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.95.9.238.159] has joined #lisp 09:42:44 -!- foo123 [5f09ee9f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.95.9.238.159] has quit [Client Quit] 09:42:47 -!- cyro [~Adium@adsl-75-18-217-219.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has left #lisp 09:45:27 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-90.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:46:01 emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 09:46:05 -!- yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.169] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 09:46:27 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:47:37 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-90.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 09:48:56 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 09:49:26 prxq [~mommer@mnhm-590c1d01.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 09:50:42 -!- emma is now known as em 09:51:25 Ralt [~Ralt@ip1.smh.prowebce.net] has joined #lisp 09:53:30 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 09:56:52 p_l: indeed, with "debugging backward in time", it doesn't matter what happens to the activation frames, since we keep a full history. 09:57:33 -!- huangjs_ [~huangjs@199.180.254.36] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 10:02:38 huangjs_ [~huangjs@199.180.254.36] has joined #lisp 10:04:34 is there any lisp today that can continue execution from some point? lik you could do in genera ... 10:05:02 i have always missed that .. 10:06:33 Like common lisp's restarts? 10:06:44 -!- terjesb [~terjesb@ec2-54-247-167-129.eu-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com] has left #lisp 10:07:12 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 10:07:15 no, far beyond restarts ... 10:07:20 zorkmoid: the current lisp debuggers cannot jump to another point. 10:07:38 -!- pavelpenev [~quassel@85-130-11-8.2073813645.shumen.cablebg.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:08:08 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-90.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:08:09 ogamita: but they can restart some frames 10:08:16 ogamita: that is a pitty 10:08:34 Indeed, if you put a (break) you can continue. 10:08:42 pavelpenev [~quassel@85-130-11-8.2073813645.shumen.cablebg.net] has joined #lisp 10:08:44 so, you can continue execution from the break point. 10:08:48 ogamita: no, in case of error, you can recompile a function, and restart a frame 10:08:59 well, at least with SBCL 10:09:01 jdz: of course, there's also that. 10:09:25 seems cumbersome. 10:09:34 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f7550e3.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 10:09:36 But even in sbcl, I don't think it continues with the restart in the new function when it's the current function that's recompiled :-) 10:10:04 zorkmoid: that's why I'm saying there's space for a few other CL implementations. One with great debugging features would be nice. 10:10:05 przl [~przlrkt@91-64-129-63-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 10:10:09 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-90.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 10:10:37 nod 10:10:41 there's also space for improvements to current implementations 10:11:04 Another optimized for unix integration too (eg. with tags separated, and 32-bit or 64-bit fixnums.) 10:11:09 jdz: of course. 10:11:18 ogamita: god, that would be awesome ... 10:11:24 time-travel debugging on non-bytecoded/microcoded languages isn't exactly easy 10:11:31 *language implementations 10:12:02 Well, we have big memories nowadays. That should ease things. 10:12:43 ogamita: 32bit/64bit fixnums won't really, IMO, help with unix integration 10:13:17 p_l: what I mean is that you can map dirrectly C structures with lisp structures. 10:13:29 pitty that there is no money in writting cl implementations these days :) 10:13:31 :( 10:13:33 even .. 10:13:43 ogamita: umm... you can with CFFI 10:13:49 (defstruct point (x :type single-float) (y :type single-float)) <-> typedef struct { float x,y; } point 10:13:55 ogamita: it just needs some extra code to make it easier, if needed 10:14:06 So that the reference to a point with be the pointer to a point. 10:14:14 No conversion. Same pointer. 10:14:49 defcstruct does that, AFAIK 10:14:52 For the C-> lisp dirrection the FFI would consist only in specifying the missing tags: 10:15:35 trying to setup some code to handle a condition Database error 22021: invalid byte sequence for encoding "UTF8": 0xa6 [Condition of type CL-POSTGRES-ERROR:DATA-EXCEPTION], currently doing (handler-case ...some code... (cl-postgres-error:data-exception (condition) (format t "~&botched batch: ~a.~%" condition) (format t "~&batch of ~d rows to retry~%" batch-size))) 10:15:55 tests show that the error management code is never called in 10:16:03 I missed another obvious thing? 10:18:27 dim: you do not end up in the debugger, right? 10:18:46 I ended in the debugger, yes 10:19:07 and I didn't see where to inspect the condition itself 10:19:11 in code that is with in your handler-case? 10:19:12 so I go by its printed name 10:19:22 yes 10:19:38 that code does some throw/catch, it might be related? 10:20:02 should not 10:20:22 how come you can't look at the condition? 10:20:36 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:20:37 maybe I just don't know the UI well enough (slime debugger) 10:21:35 dim: press C in sldb window to inspect a condition 10:21:39 you go to the top of the sldb buffer and press enter 10:21:41 -!- akovalen` is now known as akovalenko 10:21:48 agumonkey [~agu@138.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 10:21:48 or that 10:22:16 The object is a CONDITION of type CL-POSTGRES-ERROR:DATA-EXCEPTION. 10:22:18 -!- dmiles [~dmiles@c-71-237-234-93.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:22:21 that's what I got with C 10:22:56 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 10:23:26 yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.169] has joined #lisp 10:24:23 it's happening in a lparallel worker, btw 10:24:52 -!- hkBst__ [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 10:25:25 that said the handler-case is happening from within the thread where the condition is signaled, so I don't think it should have impact 10:25:36 -!- ogamita [~t@host.34.193.23.62.rev.coltfrance.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:25:42 it should not happen if it's in the scope of HANDLER-CASE. 10:25:51 or something is messing with *DEBUGGER-HOOK* 10:26:28 lexical scope? 10:26:39 dim: you mean you have create a thread in the scope of your handler-case? 10:26:50 I mean I didn't 10:27:00 -!- ISF [~ivan@189.61.223.79] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 10:27:08 I create a worker thread, and do the handler-case dance all from within that worker 10:27:32 well, you should not hit the debugger in that case 10:27:49 I still do... any idea? 10:28:07 it's my first time using handler-case so I don't have much ideas yet 10:28:10 bitonic [~user@027b68cc.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 10:29:22 well, first, when you're in the debugger, check that your assumptions hold 10:29:49 C told me the name of the condition, and that's the name I used in my code 10:29:53 what other assumptions? 10:30:11 that the code you're looking at is actually the code that is executing 10:30:16 i'd start with restarting the image 10:30:24 (recompiling everything) 10:30:28 did restart it several times already, yes 10:30:38 having quickload recompile that file 10:30:44 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 10:30:45 will try again and use v to see that 10:31:00 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@CPE-144-137-72-58.lnse5.cht.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Quit: Bye] 10:32:36 yeah running my code 10:32:49 pasting, that might as well help :) 10:34:03 http://paste.lisp.org/display/135306 10:34:12 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 10:35:33 hkBst__ [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has joined #lisp 10:36:09 -!- rob7n8h23 [~rob7n8h23@c-67-182-147-102.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: rob7n8h23] 10:37:24 rob7n8h24 [~rob7n8h24@c-67-182-147-102.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:38:00 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-90.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:38:26 -!- deego [deego@unaffiliated/deego] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:39:10 oh damn 10:39:23 the condition is signaled at close-db-writer. 10:39:50 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-90.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 10:40:31 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 10:41:43 works. 10:41:59 thanks for having been the "bear" in the "talk to the bear" debugging method :) 10:43:02 deego [deego@gateway/shell/ww7.be/x-whzhcijvfyqutyrn] has joined #lisp 10:45:26 -!- rvchangue [~rvchangue@unaffiliated/rvchangue] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:46:45 -!- hkBst__ [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:47:23 hkBst__ [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has joined #lisp 10:51:15 rvchangue [~rvchangue@cpe-024-074-005-191.carolina.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 10:51:15 -!- rvchangue [~rvchangue@cpe-024-074-005-191.carolina.res.rr.com] has quit [Changing host] 10:51:15 rvchangue [~rvchangue@unaffiliated/rvchangue] has joined #lisp 10:52:37 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 10:56:17 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-90.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:58:16 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-90.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 10:58:21 dous [~dous@bb116-15-27-192.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 10:58:21 -!- dous 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11:27:18 segv- [~mb@dslb-094-223-014-173.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 11:28:23 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-90.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 11:28:51 -!- przl [~przlrkt@91-64-129-63-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:29:00 what's the nicest way to reach the c-l.net admins? (i know who they are and could email them personaly but don't feel like interupting their day only because i've lost my ssh key) 11:29:34 segv-: send an email. :-) 11:29:50 segv-: #common-lisp.net 11:30:05 fe[nl]ix: thanks! 11:30:08 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-90.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 11:30:30 quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 11:31:06 i suspect that irc interrupts peoples time more than email ... 11:31:12 hi. when compiling the ccl 1.9 release candidate, i'm getting warnings like 11:31:13 In QL-DIST::MAKE-RELEASE-FROM-LINE: Undefined function #:|(setf ARCHIVE-SIZE)| 11:31:34 zorkmoid: i'm assuming that if they're keeping an eye on irc they're interuptable... 11:31:43 i don't recall seeing these before, and i'm not intentionally using quicklisp in any way 11:31:59 can anyone clarify? 11:32:02 segv-: i wouldn't expect that, people normally join irc and leave it one for all day. 11:32:47 zorkmoid: yeah, but i didn't mention anyone's nick, so no popups, and if they happen to see that msg go by and want to answer it, then great, otherwise, back to work! 11:33:17 segv-: mm.. i'd send an email, you might not get any action otherwise. 11:33:54 zorkmoid: fe[nl]ix is being nice enough to take care of it (#common-lisp.net was all i really needed to know) 11:36:46 faheem: how are you building the candidate? is it loading your ccl-init.lisp by accident? 11:37:53 impomatic [~digital_w@146.90.28.164] has joined #lisp 11:44:50 przl [~przlrkt@178-33-35-172.ovh.net] has joined #lisp 11:45:00 segv-: as far as I know, i'm building with the -n flag. so it shouldn't 11:45:20 -!- tentative8e8op [~tb@cpe-67-49-139-65.hawaii.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:46:21 oh, i think i see the problem 11:46:40 -!- edgar-rft [~GOD@HSI-KBW-149-172-63-75.hsi13.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Quit: nuclear meltdown] 11:47:47 faheem: i wanted to check so i tried to svn co the 1.9 release candidiate, but now i'm getting "svn: Invalid svn:externals property on '.': target involves '.' or '..' or is an absolute path" did you get that as well? 11:48:22 -!- yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.169] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:51:43 urandom__ [~user@ip-88-152-214-113.unitymediagroup.de] has joined #lisp 11:52:14 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 11:52:59 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-90.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:54:40 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-90.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 11:55:55 segv-: I think the svn you have is too old 11:57:33 yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.169] has joined #lisp 11:59:18 segv-: what path did you checkout? 11:59:33 faheem: you're right, i'm runnning a 5 year old svn 11:59:35 segv-: i think i messed up, so don't worry about it 11:59:58 segv-: i think you meant fe[nl]ix :-) 12:00:40 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.66] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:02:10 -!- hkBst__ [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:02:58 segv-: http://clozure.com/pipermail/openmcl-devel/2013-January/014057.html 12:03:34 fe[nl]ix: thanks. 12:03:43 i really need to get off osx 10.5 12:04:44 -!- przl [~przlrkt@178-33-35-172.ovh.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 12:05:09 przl [~przlrkt@91-64-129-63-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 12:06:13 -!- phserr [~phserrrr@189-71-124-21.user.veloxzone.com.br] has left #lisp 12:07:06 Joreji [~thomas@87-188.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 12:08:14 leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.66] has joined #lisp 12:08:46 hkBst__ [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has joined #lisp 12:09:31 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 12:10:38 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 12:14:07 Joreji_ [~thomas@87-188.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 12:14:27 -!- svs__ [~svs@104-252-AGAVEBB-NM.abq.nm.agavebb.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:14:44 -!- hkBst__ [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:15:15 svs_ [~svs@104-252-AGAVEBB-NM.abq.nm.agavebb.net] has joined #lisp 12:16:09 hkBst__ [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has joined #lisp 12:19:35 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-90.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 12:20:04 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 12:20:09 -!- hkBst__ [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has quit [Excess Flood] 12:20:19 froggey [~froggey@unaffiliated/froggey] has joined #lisp 12:20:52 -!- zejedi [~zejedi@108.222.222.199] has quit [] 12:21:15 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-66-159.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 12:21:40 -!- bitonic [~user@027b68cc.bb.sky.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:22:50 hkBst__ [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has joined #lisp 12:25:27 easye [~user@213.33.70.157] has joined #lisp 12:30:37 -!- huangjs_ [~huangjs@199.180.254.36] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:32:41 -!- Joreji_ [~thomas@87-188.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 12:34:34 Hermit [~arm@unaffiliated/grpala] has joined #lisp 12:34:56 -!- hkBst__ [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:35:28 hkBst__ [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has joined #lisp 12:36:13 i was thinking, what are the big cl programs out there today, i am in need for a few examples for a presentation coming up next month... 12:36:50 zorkmoid: Piano? QPX is kinda beaten horse example :D 12:37:33 -!- reckler [~reckler@ppp118-208-40-99.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:37:33 the stuff from Secure Outcomes (on-device firmware and the dev/maint tools) 12:38:09 interesting! 12:39:09 a lot of non-public facing stuff from basic CRUD pages to more complex stuff done by drewc or dwim.hu people (AFAIK hu.dwim.* packages started out from an eGov-related project) 12:39:13 anymore? 12:39:32 there's GDL, which got at least partially open-sourced 12:39:52 they do some interesting stuff in engineering 12:39:52 -!- hkBst__ [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 12:40:12 http://genworks.com/ 12:41:50 Franz's Allegro Graph seems to be pretty big and revenue-bringing project 12:42:05 (it's in the top-tier of RDF stores, afaik) 12:42:25 add various RDF-related tools from Franz to that 12:42:31 cool, making notes ... 12:43:24 -!- yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.169] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:43:33 interesting, piano was initially written by a single person 12:43:38 there's also Xanalys, and their LinkExplorer - I've seen their presentation at ECLM'12, it's pretty awesome and I wish some places had tools like that :) 12:44:19 zorkmoid: Piano is still a one-person company, afaik only the port from Mac to Windows was done with external consultants 12:44:33 http://www.xanalys.com/products/link-explorer/ <--- Xanalys 12:44:38 p_l: ah, cool 12:45:20 hkBst__ [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has joined #lisp 12:46:16 -!- rmathews [~roshan@122.165.89.11] has quit [Quit: ...] 12:46:39 is theere a list of lispy companies? i know that alot of people use it behind closed doors, never mentioning lisp and doing really awesome stuff ... 12:46:47 ahungry [~null@99-40-10-216.lightspeed.livnmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 12:47:08 zorkmoid: there are some, but they often are outdated 12:47:24 one of more interesting sources is to check out lispjobs 12:47:27 yeah, i noticed... and it is always the same list ... 12:47:43 zorkmoid: grammarly.com 12:48:02 MSI Japan apparently uses CL heavily 12:48:12 asvil: awesome! 12:48:19 teclo could be considered at least partially lispy 12:48:30 (although they final product is C++) 12:48:31 p_l: luke gories thing? 12:50:02 interesting would be small startups .. -5 years old.. 12:50:16 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-66-159.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 12:50:58 Odin- [~sbkhh@erudite.anarchism.is] has joined #lisp 12:51:13 zorkmoid: hard to say. There's just this "lots of small companies that aren't high-hype, high-fame" thing 12:51:44 there's a company in Oslo that does CL webapps 12:51:51 they also do a bit of Java 12:51:57 p_l: WHAT?? 12:52:14 p_l: copyleft, or someone else? 12:52:29 chr: copyleft, afaik 12:52:36 url? 12:52:38 was pointed to them few years ago 12:52:55 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-66-159.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 12:53:00 Copyleft are at http://www.copyleftsolutions.com/ 12:53:03 http://copyleftsolutions.com/ 12:53:21 thank you 12:53:21 -!- ehu [~ehu@31.136.49.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:53:24 http://onshored.com/ <--- those guys had CL jobs posted recently 12:54:07 there's a closed-source project, mocl, that claims to be about writing in CL for mobile platforms 12:54:19 sambio [~sambio@190.57.227.109] has joined #lisp 12:54:22 While we're on/in Oslo, there's also Netfonds (pok and johannes are regulars here in #lisp), Selvaag Bluethink and Telenors K2. 12:55:01 cool coo, this is exactly what i want! 12:56:30 None of those companies are less than five years old. 12:56:37 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.66] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.2.92.1] 12:57:26 there's not enough "new blood" it seems 12:58:13 chr: oh,. looked like young ones.. 12:59:06 ehu [~ehu@31.137.33.155] has joined #lisp 12:59:10 well, mine failed for non-lisp-related reasons :) 12:59:41 loke_erc [~user@bb115-66-85-121.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 12:59:47 p_l: Mine too. Now I'm at K2 in Telenor. Very safe. 13:00:04 what is k2 in telenor? 13:00:16 two- [~1@c-67-171-131-23.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:00:29 p_l: what did you do? 13:01:00 p_l: K2 is accounts/customers/products for broadband in Telenor Norway. 13:01:16 zorkmoid: I was working on a smallish ERP-like program for a client as a consultant 13:01:21 I got ill 13:01:43 or rather, the illness finally got me after slowly growing for 10y :) 13:02:07 p_l: ah, sorry. 13:02:42 I also had another project where it would probably go more towards Erlang, but co-founder didn't like the risk involved 13:05:15 mm. 13:05:39 yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.169] has joined #lisp 13:07:25 leoncamel [~leoncamel@124.126.218.28] has joined #lisp 13:07:34 thanks for the help! 13:07:53 for some other interesting companies, though not "new", there's a CL-based one that develops FPGA-based high-frequency trading coprocessors 13:08:28 and Franz apparently is pushing out a "big data" package that probably is built on CL as well, Allegro SET 13:08:41 mm.. 13:08:52 wherre do you learn this stuff? :-) 13:09:55 zorkmoid: just looked on Franz's website when checking my facts, noticed a new product under semantic technology :) 13:10:06 ahaha :-) 13:10:18 some I had seen presentations about them (GDL, LinkExplorer) 13:10:29 a friend works at the FPGA company :) 13:11:37 cool 13:11:46 name? 13:12:21 let me check 13:13:21 NovaSparks 13:13:48 http://www.novasparks.com/ 13:13:56 there is a very old company using Golden Common Lisp that makes software for nuclear reactors 13:14:36 http://www.fractalconcept.com/ <--- this the previous company of the same founder as NovaSparks, iirc 13:15:05 cool 13:15:18 *prxq* can't remember the name 13:15:46 marc battyani is pretty well-known, i'd say. 13:16:07 he's the author of cl-pdf, too (and the founder of fractalconcept and novasparks) 13:16:37 zorkmoid: shuffleworks it is 13:17:06 browndawg [~browndawg@117.201.182.195] has joined #lisp 13:17:36 NovaSparks also fits the "founded in last 5 years" (well, nearly so) case :) 13:19:06 doesn't hjave to be exactly 5 year :-) just not interested in ITA, Yahoo and such ... 13:19:40 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 13:19:42 would be nice to have some recent startups too ...like novasparks, seems cool. 13:19:44 well, Yahoo is old story, ITA tried some new stuff as well and now is, from what I heard, the "Lisp Island" of Google :) 13:20:36 breakds [~breakds@ppp-70-226-163-93.dsl.mdsnwi.ameritech.net] has joined #lisp 13:20:52 one of my former clients wanted to start a small startup doing cl a few years back.. 13:21:47 -!- juvi [~jukka@a88-114-62-93.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Quit: juvi] 13:22:07 something to do with casino stuff or something on malta.. go figure. 13:22:08 can anyone confirm that the current clsql available in quicklisp builds? it seems to fail here 13:22:36 bitonic [~user@dyn1222-236.wlan.ic.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 13:22:37 the problem with CL is that you need the starting people to be good at learning and determined, or already know CL. Or maybe I was just not enough of a slave driver when doing my 3rd-year uni project (we basically simulate a startup as part of a class, and I just didn't have it in me to use a whip...) 13:23:30 juvi [~jukka@a88-114-62-93.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 13:23:36 p_l: for big group projects i never used CL aside from prototyping stuff. for smaller projects i sometimes took it on me to write all code myself. 13:24:00 madnificent: in my case it was less the problem of CL, and more the problem of kicking ass of some people 13:24:21 yeah, somehow cl suites it self for small groups.. 13:24:29 but well, that's the nature of "let's make balanced teams" in university ;) 13:24:31 of size 1 13:24:59 never worked on anything bigger :-) 13:25:08 H4ns: lisp teams of size 1 are fairly productive. compare them to Java teams of size 3, for instance. (i kid) 13:25:37 madnificent: java teams of size 30 more like it... 13:25:40 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-66-159.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 13:26:02 madnificent: i'm not debating that. it is just when the project gets too large for the one genius to handle where CL becomes a questionable choice. 13:26:28 *madnificent* mostly always found it productive to be with more than one. if not for coding, then for pointing out stupid architectural choices. 13:26:54 i've been thinking of hiring a person latley, getting old.. 13:26:54 -!- yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.169] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:27:10 H4ns: does the same hold if you have multiple CL wizards on a team, or have you found a reason why thy can't work together efficiently? 13:27:16 rmathews [~roshan@122.174.6.115] has joined #lisp 13:27:16 -!- juvi [~jukka@a88-114-62-93.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Client Quit] 13:27:36 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-66-159.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 13:27:55 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f7550e3.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 13:28:18 madnificent: i found work at ita pretty pleasant - there was so much elder cl knowledge that the team did not get into endless fighting about "the right way to program cl" very much 13:28:44 madnificent: but that was because the team was large, and had many elder lispers in it. 13:29:53 that may indeed be benificial. it's interesting too. 13:30:11 zorkmoid: the software used here is approximately 100-200 KLOC of CL: http://puls.cs.helsinki.fi/ 13:30:20 not a company though 13:30:39 pve: nifty! 13:32:51 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-167-227.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:33:26 H4ns: that's why I'm pretty interested in that google CL style guide 13:33:37 mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-96-240-138-223.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:34:04 my fault in that student project was expecting other people to be in the mindset of "get a book, learn basics of language fast" 13:34:24 -!- bitonic [~user@dyn1222-236.wlan.ic.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:35:06 there's also whatever brought Core-serveR to existence 13:35:39 H4ns: do you recon having such elder lispers (or any other form of lispers the others accept as an authorative source) is a prerequisite for a successful lisp team? 13:36:40 madnificent: it always helps to have multiple higher authorities in a team. higher authority basically means age and experience in the same field. that helps a lot to get hotshots under control. 13:37:14 -!- loke_erc [~user@bb115-66-85-121.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 13:39:53 H4ns: point taken. so lisp isn't much different from other languages in that regard, or would you encounter more coders behaving like hotshots? 13:39:57 -!- hkBst__ [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:40:11 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-185-82-146.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:41:02 yes. cl has the red pill feel, and hackers that are new to lisp often have this "world domination is imminent" idea. 13:41:54 thanks for these social insights, fun to know. 13:44:07 bitonic [~user@dyn1222-236.wlan.ic.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 13:45:06 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-167-227.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 13:45:27 it is interesting that most of the companies/projects are small teams, and quite complicated stuff... 13:45:30 hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has joined #lisp 13:45:30 -!- hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has quit [Changing host] 13:45:30 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 13:47:35 -!- leoncamel [~leoncamel@124.126.218.28] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:48:07 -!- k0001_ [~k0001@host225.186-109-99.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:49:02 awesome, cl-crowl .. now i can get notifications about various stuff to my phone! 13:49:27 yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.169] has joined #lisp 13:50:08 francisl [~anonymous@69.157.141.151] has joined #lisp 13:50:56 zorkmoid: link? i can't fid it. 13:51:04 cl-growl, sorry... 13:51:11 http://www.cliki.net/cl-growl 13:51:40 ah ok 13:53:37 -!- add^_ [~add^_@m37-2-173-35.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: The Garbage Collector got me...] 13:55:02 -!- minion [~minion@tiger.common-lisp.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:55:26 -!- specbot [~specbot@tiger.common-lisp.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 13:55:53 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 13:58:28 normanrichards [~normanric@70.114.215.220] has joined #lisp 14:00:24 Vivitron [~Vivitron@12.53.196.74] has joined #lisp 14:01:52 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@70.114.215.220] has quit [Client Quit] 14:02:09 -!- two- [~1@c-67-171-131-23.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:04:30 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-66-159.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:05:07 -!- Joreji [~thomas@87-188.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 14:05:15 Denommus [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/denommus] has joined #lisp 14:05:26 when a condition is signaled in the protected form of an unwind-protect, the cleanup form is executed, right? 14:06:23 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-66-159.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 14:08:02 sellout- [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:08:25 it looks like cl-postgres:close-db-writer is not cleaning-up its connections in case of error, and it looks like that is due to misplaces closing paren 14:08:30 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 14:09:45 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-138-29.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:09:46 `fogus [~fogus@freedom.d-a-s.com] has joined #lisp 14:10:17 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:10:58 yes, it seems to boils down to that. 14:11:11 yay, i found why clsql wasn't compiling 14:12:54 'tis a bug 14:13:13 drmeister [~drmeister@166.137.93.78] has joined #lisp 14:13:55 -!- yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.169] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:16:07 loke_erc [~user@bb115-66-85-121.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 14:16:56 two- [~1@199.254.238.148] has joined #lisp 14:17:29 https://github.com/marijnh/Postmodern/issues/29 14:17:29 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@166.137.93.78] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:17:42 a bug too here too 14:18:47 dim: a pull-request would be better 14:19:01 I guess, I won't have time to do that properly until later 14:20:06 RfuqKE11725u [~GqEHzoD@202.114.205.124] has joined #lisp 14:20:10 -!- RfuqKE11725u [~GqEHzoD@202.114.205.124] has left #lisp 14:21:21 francisl_ [~flavoie@69.157.141.151] has joined #lisp 14:27:22 -!- francisl_ [~flavoie@69.157.141.151] has quit [Quit: francisl_] 14:28:24 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-66-159.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:29:49 linse [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1177917310.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 14:29:58 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-66-159.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 14:30:38 yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.169] has joined #lisp 14:34:55 Joreji [~thomas@87-188.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 14:36:59 -!- theos is now known as Guest55177 14:37:29 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 14:37:30 -!- two- [~1@199.254.238.148] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:37:51 -!- mon_key` [~user@74-143-70-82.static.insightbb.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:38:07 mon_key` [~user@74-143-70-82.static.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 14:38:22 k0001 [~k0001@host123.190-229-209.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 14:38:57 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 14:39:09 drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has joined #lisp 14:40:46 -!- Guest55177 [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:43:48 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Quit: Linkinus - http://linkinus.com] 14:44:47 Straylight [~user@data.expressionanalysis.com] has joined #lisp 14:47:17 -!- loke_erc [~user@bb115-66-85-121.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:47:50 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 14:48:29 two- [~1@199.254.238.148] has joined #lisp 14:49:23 hkBst_ [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 14:49:35 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 14:56:01 natechan [~natechan@50-192-61-46-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 14:56:50 stopbit [~stopbit@static-108-48-124-82.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:59:20 minion: help 14:59:32 where did minion go? 14:59:47 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 14:59:53 (sigh) 15:00:27 drmeister: how is your compiler progressing? 15:00:29 the whole cl.net is pining for the fjords 15:01:02 It's moving along. I'm wrestling with compiling QUOTE and generating complex data structures within LLVM modules. 15:02:17 normanrichards [~normanric@mobile-166-137-144-217.mycingular.net] has joined #lisp 15:03:49 specbot [~specbot@pppoe.178-66-78-43.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 15:03:54 replacement guard is on the way 15:04:09 clhs list 15:04:09 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_list.htm 15:04:21 minion [~minion@pppoe.178-66-78-43.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 15:04:27 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-66-159.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:04:27 minion: help? 15:04:28 There are multiple help modules. Try ``/msg minion help kind'', where kind is one of: "lookups", "helping others", "adding terms", "aliasing terms", "forgetting", "memos", "avoiding memos", "nicknames", "goodies", "eliza", "advice", "apropos", "acronyms". 15:05:13 srcerer_ [~chatzilla@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has joined #lisp 15:05:25 -!- bitonic [~user@dyn1222-236.wlan.ic.ac.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:05:29 stardiviner [~stardivin@122.236.250.82] has joined #lisp 15:05:42 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-66-159.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:05:53 bitonic [~user@dyn1222-236.wlan.ic.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 15:07:08 ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.186] has joined #lisp 15:07:15 -!- srcerer [~chatzilla@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:11:33 drmeister: interesting. What is the difficulty when compiling QUOTE? 15:13:21 drmeister: shouldn't you just be able to shove the list into a data segmetn? 15:14:35 drewc H4ns: do you have any idea what's with cl.net? 15:14:37 or the whatever is being quoted, I guess 15:16:04 -!- hkBst_ [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:16:49 -!- francisl [~anonymous@69.157.141.151] has quit [Quit: francisl] 15:18:10 hkBst_ [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has joined #lisp 15:18:10 -!- hkBst_ [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has quit [Changing host] 15:18:10 hkBst_ [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 15:19:16 cl.net seems to be just down. 15:23:04 sent Drew a message 15:23:33 no ping, no ssh, nada 15:24:12 i can tell as far, but i don't want to be running minion and specbot on my desktop for too long 15:24:36 -!- ubii [~ubii@unaffiliated/ubii] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:25:07 ubii [~ubii@184.21.196.19] has joined #lisp 15:25:07 -!- ubii [~ubii@184.21.196.19] has quit [Changing host] 15:25:07 ubii [~ubii@unaffiliated/ubii] has joined #lisp 15:27:01 i'm not doing c-l.net anymore, sorry. 15:27:19 that's why it's down! 15:27:24 hah 15:27:28 qptain_Nemo [~qN@89.207.216.208] has joined #lisp 15:28:57 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:29:40 -!- Vivitron [~Vivitron@12.53.196.74] has quit [Quit: trivial-irc-0.0.4] 15:31:26 prxq: I have to map everything into data structures and C++ calls provided by the LLVM library and I can do that with simple things like ints and strings. I'm just familiarizing myself with how to generate arrays of structures and internal pointers etc. 15:32:19 -!- hkBst_ [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 15:32:44 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-66-159.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:32:52 Early on I made a decision to use boost::shared_ptr's for memory management - they are non-intrusive reference counted pointers that I have to now represent in the LLVM data segments to compile quoted CONSes etc. 15:34:00 drmeister: shared_ptr's only do refcounting, right? 15:34:29 oh you say so 15:34:55 drmeister: what GC does the CL itself use? 15:35:55 dnolen [~user@cpe-74-64-61-245.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:37:42 -!- dous_ [~dous@unaffiliated/dous] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:38:24 adelgado [~TomSawyer@65.23.61.98.nw.nuvox.net] has joined #lisp 15:38:45 hkBst_ [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has joined #lisp 15:38:45 -!- hkBst_ [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has quit [Changing host] 15:38:45 hkBst_ [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 15:39:31 I don't have GC built in yet. I use a combination of reference counted pointers and weak pointers to avoid memory cycles. I plan to implement mark-and-sweep GC. Reference counting + mark-and-sweep is what I believe Python uses and works pretty well. 15:40:09 It will take some work to retrofit mark-and-sweep into the code so I've been putting it off. 15:40:15 dous [~dous@unaffiliated/dous] has joined #lisp 15:40:53 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 15:41:04 replcated` [~rparker@static-241-143-171-68.axsne.net] has joined #lisp 15:41:08 -!- replcated` [~rparker@static-241-143-171-68.axsne.net] has quit [Client Quit] 15:41:32 replcated [~user@static-241-143-171-68.axsne.net] has joined #lisp 15:42:30 I need to run to teach my class. I'll be back in the evening. 15:44:01 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-66-159.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:45:24 -!- bitonic [~user@dyn1222-236.wlan.ic.ac.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:45:55 bitonic [~user@dyn1222-236.wlan.ic.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 15:46:26 -!- am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:47:33 victor_lowther [~victorlow@143.166.116.80] has joined #lisp 15:47:35 -!- two- [~1@199.254.238.148] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:50:30 -!- hkBst_ [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:50:52 hkBst_ [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has joined #lisp 15:50:52 -!- hkBst_ [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has quit [Changing host] 15:50:52 hkBst_ [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 15:56:33 juvi [~jukka@a88-114-62-93.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 15:57:31 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-66-159.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:58:24 -!- replcated [~user@static-241-143-171-68.axsne.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 15:59:18 -!- k0001 [~k0001@host123.190-229-209.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 15:59:27 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-66-159.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:00:01 -!- asvil [~user@91.151.182.61] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:02:09 -!- k-stz [~user@HSI-KBW-095-208-250-027.hsi5.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:02:16 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@mobile-166-137-144-217.mycingular.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:02:23 -!- hugoduncan is now known as hugod 16:04:43 -!- findiggle [~kirkwood@173-10-106-172-BusName-Washington.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:05:00 findiggle [~kirkwood@173-10-106-172-BusName-Washington.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 16:05:30 -!- hkBst_ [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 16:07:04 CatMtKing [~CatMtKing@ed-uluka.dyn.ucr.edu] has joined #lisp 16:08:37 hydan [90a0e235@gateway/web/freenode/ip.144.160.226.53] has joined #lisp 16:09:00 replcated [~user@static-241-143-171-68.axsne.net] has joined #lisp 16:09:29 antifuchs: Happy Birthday! :D 16:10:07 -!- dnolen [~user@cpe-74-64-61-245.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:10:41 lemonodor [~jwiseman@mobile-166-137-177-014.mycingular.net] has joined #lisp 16:13:09 -!- linse [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1177917310.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: zzzz] 16:13:35 -!- CatMtKing [~CatMtKing@ed-uluka.dyn.ucr.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:13:46 CatMtKing [~CatMtKing@ed-uluka.dyn.ucr.edu] has joined #lisp 16:14:39 -!- arrdem is now known as lithpbot 16:15:23 -!- lithpbot is now known as arrdem 16:15:38 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-71-237-234-93.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:16:38 drmeister: simple GC is trivial. You could just use BoehmGC! 16:19:37 -!- hydan [90a0e235@gateway/web/freenode/ip.144.160.226.53] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:20:01 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-138-29.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:20:12 Fare [~fare@146.94.106.109.dynamic.sat.abo.nordnet.fr] has joined #lisp 16:20:51 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-66-159.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:21:16 -!- sirdancealot7 [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:21:41 -!- sirdancealot1 [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:22:07 -!- juvi [~jukka@a88-114-62-93.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Quit: juvi] 16:23:00 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-66-159.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:23:44 -!- fe[nl]ix [~quassel@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:23:53 fe[nl]ix [~quassel@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 16:29:13 I'm having a weird issue with lispbuilder-sdl-gfx 16:29:18 -!- paolo_m [~user@2-228-95-110.ip190.fastwebnet.it] has left #lisp 16:30:08 -!- MrKipper [~kyle@mcbale.sbc.man.ac.uk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:31:09 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:31:31 -!- replcated [~user@static-241-143-171-68.axsne.net] has quit [Quit: brb] 16:31:41 -!- Joreji [~thomas@87-188.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:32:02 -!- cdidd [~cdidd@95-26-78-89.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:32:43 normanrichards [~normanric@rrcs-108-178-120-144.sw.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:34:35 kmels [~kmels@frbg-5d84fcb8.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 16:34:46 sirdancealot1 [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 16:35:07 sirdancealot7 [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 16:35:07 -!- lemonodor [~jwiseman@mobile-166-137-177-014.mycingular.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:36:30 replcated [~user@static-241-143-171-68.axsne.net] has joined #lisp 16:38:09 Joreji [~thomas@87-188.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 16:38:37 lemonodor [~jwiseman@cpe-75-83-152-209.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:39:51 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@92.46.28.210] has joined #lisp 16:39:51 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@92.46.28.210] has quit [Changing host] 16:39:51 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 16:41:47 -!- joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@086.112-30-64.ftth.swbr.surewest.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:42:58 -!- gigamonkey [~user@50.1.48.145] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:46:33 -!- [SLB]` is now known as [SLB] 16:48:35 -!- svetlyak40wt [~svetlyak4@dhcp175-196-red3.yandex.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:49:45 -!- przl [~przlrkt@91-64-129-63-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 16:50:02 -!- ehu [~ehu@31.137.33.155] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:54:28 -!- Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.0] 16:55:00 Kenjin [~kenjin@bl16-72-198.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 16:55:07 youlysses [~user@75-132-21-229.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 16:57:07 -!- djuber [~user@c-76-16-60-176.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:00:01 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-66-159.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:01:46 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-66-159.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:03:06 djuber [~user@c-76-16-60-176.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:03:48 -!- adelgado [~TomSawyer@65.23.61.98.nw.nuvox.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:04:17 adelgado [~TomSawyer@65.23.61.98.nw.nuvox.net] has joined #lisp 17:06:39 jynnantonix [~textual@140.247.0.99] has joined #lisp 17:07:33 yay, thanks sellout- ((: 17:09:42 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-84-44-153-61.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 17:10:09 -!- srcerer_ is now known as srcerer 17:10:17 antifuchs: all the best from me, too! 17:10:33 aw, thanks (: 17:15:35 ASau [~user@46.115.64.14] has joined #lisp 17:16:08 antifuchs, any great news? 17:16:43 just made it another year into senescence! (-: 17:17:35 oh. May you make many more of them! 17:17:40 thanks Fare ((: 17:18:01 I hope you end up an old crinkly little thing, many, many years from now. 17:18:18 may your death be slow, slow, slow. decades. 17:18:49 ebobby [~fms@189.170.16.14] has joined #lisp 17:19:12 -!- youlysses [~user@75-132-21-229.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:20:57 -!- eli [~eli@racket/eli] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:22:20 how encouraging 17:22:33 antifuchs: happy bday :) 17:22:49 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-96-240-138-223.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 17:23:20 przl [~przlrkt@91-64-129-63-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 17:24:32 awwww (: 17:24:40 thanks everyone <3 17:25:31 sdemarre [~serge@109.134.176.104] has joined #lisp 17:26:21 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-66-159.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:27:08 youlysses [~user@75-132-21-229.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 17:27:14 antifuchs: :) 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[Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:25:31 -!- n2kra [~n2kra@pool-74-102-3-68.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 18:27:08 hydan [~user@ip-89-102-13-27.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 18:28:09 tcr [~tcr@77-56-40-229.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 18:29:51 bigdeal [~WOEFdaQP@59.49.30.235] has joined #lisp 18:29:55 -!- bigdeal [~WOEFdaQP@59.49.30.235] has left #lisp 18:31:18 Ralt [~ralt@89-92-204-200.hfc.dyn.abo.bbox.fr] has joined #lisp 18:31:41 -!- cabaire [~nobody@xdsl-84-44-208-178.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:31:46 -!- yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.169] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:34:18 antifuchs: happy earthday! 18:34:35 -!- juvi [~jukka@a88-114-62-93.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Quit: juvi] 18:34:37 drmeister [~drmeister@wirelessNAT188.wireless.temple.edu] has joined #lisp 18:34:40 home [~quassel@106.209.129.180] has joined #lisp 18:34:52 Hi 18:34:54 and for the others : common-lisp.net is restarting now, do not know why it was down. 18:34:57 -!- bitonic [~user@dyn1222-236.wlan.ic.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:35:08 i want to learn lisp 18:35:38 ..... and back up. 18:35:41 i am reading on list 18:35:43 juvi [~jukka@a88-114-62-93.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 18:35:44 minion: please tell home about PCL 18:35:44 home: look at PCL: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 18:35:45 i am reading on lisp 18:35:47 -!- tcr [~tcr@77-56-40-229.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:35:55 drewc: great 18:36:17 home: do not read On Lisp first, especially if you want to learn lisp itself 18:36:22 -!- juvi [~jukka@a88-114-62-93.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Client Quit] 18:36:55 -!- minion [~minion@pppoe.178-66-78-43.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:36:55 -!- specbot [~specbot@pppoe.178-66-78-43.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:36:57 home: or second ... in fact, avoiding PG for the first number of book readings is a good idea. 18:37:11 sirdancealot7 [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 18:37:14 minion [~minion@tiger.common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 18:37:14 specbot [~specbot@tiger.common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 18:37:31 ok, bots are back on cl.net 18:37:36 and lisppaste is up 18:38:15 sorry about that all ... drewc@drewc.org is the best place beyond my phone# if such things happen 18:39:07 drewc: is there a way to make them come automatically after a reboot? 18:39:38 i'd imagine a line in /etc/rc.local could do the trick 18:39:53 i could try later 18:39:54 yeah, but ... 18:40:02 prxq: of course there's a way, but i can't do that 18:40:06 home: i agree with drewc. on lisp is probably not the best book to read when you're starting out. pg is an interesting person, and he can voice opinions well, but PCL does a better job (and it teaches you a style that's generally better accepted). feel free to voice questions. also: anything you read about installing libraries: check quicklisp for installing them first, it's way better than what we had before. 18:40:34 imagine in 1 week if the bots are not on that box at all, because already I have started to move things 18:40:57 -!- Ralt [~ralt@89-92-204-200.hfc.dyn.abo.bbox.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:41:13 if fact ... imagine the bots are on their own "lisp-irc-bots" VM .... 18:41:26 s/if/in 18:41:32 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-66-159.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 18:42:39 if there are those (prxq? stassats?) who already know about everything that needs done and how to move the bots ... I can deploy that VM now :) 18:43:02 sirdancealot1 [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 18:43:12 i don't care where they live, as long i have ssh access there 18:44:14 and the reason cl-net may have crashed is that I rynced the HDD to a new VM last night as well, and there seems to be an issue... and cl-net will soon be moved as well... and in a better location imo 18:44:22 rsync'ed 18:44:30 -!- Amadiro [jonathri@dalvik.ping.uio.no] has quit [Excess Flood] 18:44:37 -!- Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:44:39 if I have access to the vm and know how to start the bots, I can do the rc.local thing 18:45:26 -!- home [~quassel@106.209.129.180] has left #lisp 18:45:52 ok, drewc@drewc.org with your ssh pkeys and the username you desire, and it will be done. 18:46:31 Amadiro [jonathri@dalvik.ping.uio.no] has joined #lisp 18:46:33 now .. lisppaste .. anyone have a fscking clue about it and can move it to its own VM as well? 18:46:45 -!- Denommus [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/denommus] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:46:51 -!- on` [~user@46.Red-83-49-115.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:46:54 i include lisppaste into the same category 18:47:28 HG` [~HG@wprt-4db6d6d8.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 18:47:33 i manage both the bots and lisppaste, but there needs to be some apache proxy support 18:47:41 n0vember [~n0vember@liberacescursedpiano.org] has joined #lisp 18:48:02 pnpuff [~dioxirane@gateway/tor-sasl/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 18:51:48 -!- svetlyak40wt [~svetlyak4@broadband-95-84-141-55.nationalcablenetworks.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:52:18 n2kra [~n2kra@pool-74-102-3-68.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:52:33 mattrepl [~mattrepl@129.174.219.178] has joined #lisp 18:52:55 thanks drewc (: 18:52:56 -!- MusangKing [~CatMtKing@wireless-mobilenet-169-235-58-10.bulk.ucr.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:53:04 do the bots and lisppaste have to be moved into its own vm? 18:53:52 they seem to be working fine as it is 18:53:54 yes, either that or I delete them completely. 18:54:11 CL-net will be many different VMs itself 18:54:39 so, either they go where I put them ,or they do not have a category that makes any sense 18:54:41 drewc: between Lisp and NixOS, there's Guix -- but it isn't there yet. 18:55:24 -!- samebchase [~samuel@codesurfers.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:55:26 -!- sirdancealot7 [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:55:35 Fare: I keep on hearing of Guix, but beyond the name, have not looked into it farther 18:55:51 -!- Kenjin [~kenjin@bl16-72-198.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:55:52 stassats: is it somehow easier to keep them where they are? 18:55:53 samebchase [~samuel@codesurfers.net] has joined #lisp 18:56:12 -!- sirdancealot1 [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:56:13 drewc: yes, it doesn't require any actions 18:56:36 drewc: not much to see right now. The idea is NixOS using Guile Scheme instead of the combination of an ad-hoc lazy functional language + shell scripts. 18:57:04 stassats: because if there are those that want them there, well, $300/mo should cover the costs of that server which is USA based and I am not paying for it after this month.... so the 'actions 18:57:28 if you give me paste.lisp.org:80 on the proxied to the 8080 port, transitioning will be easy 18:57:28 Ralt [~ralt@89-92-204-200.hfc.dyn.abo.bbox.fr] has joined #lisp 18:57:39 it does not require are about $3600 worth of funds :) 18:58:20 the hosting of those bots costs 300$ per month? are those servers made of unicorns? 18:58:30 I do not control paste.lisp.org at all, but ... that is going to be on a different VM than the bots 18:58:38 victor_lowther [~victorlow@143.166.116.80] has joined #lisp 18:58:46 can it be on the same vm? 18:59:13 Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 18:59:33 sure .... if you tell me why they need to be on the same box? they communicate with eachother? 18:59:55 the lisppate bot, which isn't running currently, communicate with minion 19:00:07 k, makes sense 19:00:14 then yes, not a problem 19:00:43 lisppaste/minion on one VM, cl-net on the other(s) 19:01:04 why is such an arrangement cheaper? 19:01:12 drmeiste_ [~drmeister@wirelessNAT188.wireless.temple.edu] has joined #lisp 19:01:32 'cheaper'? then what? 19:01:38 then one VM 19:01:40 than 19:01:55 because I do not pay for VMs ... I run a hosting company 19:02:07 the VMs are all on my physical server 19:02:16 12TB disk, 128GB ram 19:02:39 (for the modern server) 19:02:52 -!- impomatic [~digital_w@146.90.28.164] has quit [Quit: impomatic] 19:03:00 drewc: wow. how many processor cores? 19:03:17 2x8 IIRC 19:03:52 dual xeons .... It is either 16 or 32 ... 16 i think, amd has more cores 19:04:16 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@wirelessNAT188.wireless.temple.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 19:04:24 and two 10Gbit/s ethernet cards :) 19:04:28 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@rrcs-108-178-120-144.sw.biz.rr.com] has quit [] 19:05:50 -!- Ralt [~ralt@89-92-204-200.hfc.dyn.abo.bbox.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:06:10 moores law is a big deal for me ... I stopped buying servers in 2005, and now rent/lease them... so every 20 years my speed doubles and my prices half... this is last years server ... 2014 I will likely get a 'new' one depending on how things go. 19:07:01 *drewc* has 5 servers in 3 different countries .... there is not a nuke big enough to bomb all 3 ;) 19:07:16 there are 3 small nukes 19:07:23 heh 19:07:46 are the countries at least on different continents? 19:08:05 yup 19:08:26 sirdancealot1 [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 19:08:40 drewc: A good asteroid should be able to do it, though. 19:08:40 Denver, London, and Amsterdam ... 2 continents and an island between them :) 19:08:41 sirdancealot7 [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 19:08:58 -!- Patzy [~something@lns-bzn-51f-81-56-151-137.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 19:09:03 they're all in NATO! 19:09:27 antoszka: yeah, but I figure that was supposed to happen winter solstice this year... 14th baktun now 19:09:34 :) 19:09:40 and northern hemisphere 19:09:46 -!- ebobby [~fms@189.170.16.14] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:09:59 stassats: I know! that is an issue for sure .... and actually been looking into NZ or AU 19:10:08 svetlyak40wt [~svetlyak4@broadband-95-84-141-55.nationalcablenetworks.ru] has joined #lisp 19:10:22 I'd rather place myself in NZ and keep the servers elsewhere. 19:10:30 (or wherever) 19:10:35 I actually plan on 'living' there for a while, so will look into it 19:10:48 I already did. 19:11:03 drewc: first off, it'd be nice if the new fm would not hang itself up. maybe you can install a watchdog that reboots it automatically if it becomes unresponsive. 19:11:07 vm even 19:11:16 antoszka: there is this thing, a large expense, called : bandwidth 19:11:17 It's a shitty place if you want to earn some money, otherwise all dandy. 19:11:18 ebobby [~fms@189.170.16.14] has joined #lisp 19:11:50 And they have terrible consumer internet access (~8 years behind rest of world). 19:11:58 H4ns: yeah, the new VM will not be xen based at all, so, will not crash like this one does 19:11:59 (by my judgment) 19:12:44 antoszka: you are aware that I live on a boat, yes? so even modem over phone line is 'good' compared to HAM radio or inmarsat 19:13:39 switch to a submarine and extremely low frequency 19:13:51 and, I work for myself, so the location where I moor is not important to my clients, their business is :P 19:14:40 stassats: heh .. I am a displacement hull ... submarine is not a good thing, means going to fast with way to much wind :) 19:14:51 archonix [~unknown@78.90.30.16] has joined #lisp 19:14:59 too* 19:15:14 -!- drmeiste_ [~drmeister@wirelessNAT188.wireless.temple.edu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:15:15 at leas you could carry your own nukes 19:16:55 heh .... funny thing is, I have! my mother used to teach for pickering hydro (nuke power plant), and I have carried around (in lead) a U-238 'rock' :) 19:17:51 drewc: what is the average yearly energy consumption of yours 3 servers? 19:18:17 drmeister [~drmeister@wirelessNAT188.wireless.temple.edu] has joined #lisp 19:18:48 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 19:18:58 pnpuff: how long I have to work to pay for them is the energy I consume. For the servers, I do not know, you may want to ask the datacentres my dedicateds are at. 19:19:27 (and I have 5 servers, but who's counting) :) 19:20:43 soon to be 7, then 5, then 3 :) 19:21:05 drewc: No, I wasn't aware of that :). I suppose you can use all the modern 3G/LTE goodness whenever you're close enough to a shore? 19:21:20 Patzy [~something@lns-bzn-51f-81-56-151-137.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 19:21:23 yup, 3G right now 19:21:44 what's the practical range of 3G near big cities? 19:21:50 is it like 10, 50km? 19:22:14 no idea, simply because where i live is ... odd. 19:22:20 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 19:22:22 drmeiste_ [~drmeister@wirelessNAT188.wireless.temple.edu] has joined #lisp 19:22:58 an odd marina? 19:23:41 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@wirelessNAT188.wireless.temple.edu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:23:51 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strait_of_Georgia <--- an 'odd' location. More island and marinas here then anywhere else in the world, with malaysia coming a close second 19:24:10 drewc: the increasing power usage is a serious problem :( 19:24:39 drewc: Isn't it rather chilly there these days? 19:25:43 pnpuff: it is, hence my goal for late 2013 ... Raspberry PIs or similar in a rackmount case. 19:26:11 antoszka: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en-CA&q=vancouver%20weather ... and 2 degrees warmer near the ocean. 19:26:15 fisxoj [~fisxoj@c-24-12-190-29.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:26:16 -!- xcombelle [~xcombelle@AToulouse-551-1-65-92.w92-146.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:27:21 or: this is the warmest spot in canada, and warmer then all the northern states, and a lot of the central states as well :) 19:27:44 AeroNotix [~xeno@abov214.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 19:28:24 -!- zacts [~zacts@unaffiliated/zacts] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:28:24 see, the mountains (Cascades!) and the island tend to stop wind and weather ... so the only 'flaw' is that we have two seasons. Summer and Rainy. 19:29:16 zacts [~lcc@unaffiliated/zacts] has joined #lisp 19:29:21 -!- adelgado [~TomSawyer@65.23.61.98.nw.nuvox.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:29:25 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 19:29:27 -!- strobegen [~strobegen@64.120.223.138] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:30:20 and this on one of the few places on earth where I can snowboard to a golf course, and at the 18th hole, near a beach for swimming... in the summer or winter... the ocean is almost always 5C 19:30:49 slyrus [~chatzilla@173-228-44-92.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 19:32:55 tcr [~tcr@77-56-40-229.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 19:33:05 strz [~strobegen@64.120.223.138] has joined #lisp 19:33:12 cabaire [~nobody@xdsl-84-44-208-178.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 19:33:31 -!- strz is now known as strobegen 19:33:40 -!- replcated [~user@static-241-143-171-68.axsne.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:33:43 impomatic [~digital_w@146.90.28.164] has joined #lisp 19:34:41 replcated [~user@static-241-143-171-68.axsne.net] has joined #lisp 19:34:47 Fare: well, beyond the fact that I dislike lisp-1 and full continuations, scheme is still my 3rd favorite language! any pointers/links etc? 19:35:35 is a green languange (: 19:36:38 edgar-rft [~GOD@HSI-KBW-149-172-63-75.hsi13.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 19:37:04 Ralt [~Ralt@89-92-204-200.hfc.dyn.abo.bbox.fr] has joined #lisp 19:39:02 Dalek_Baldwin [~Adium@71-84-34-33.dhcp.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has joined #lisp 19:40:12 Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-72-66-99-183.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:41:47 -!- tcr [~tcr@77-56-40-229.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:41:59 -!- ebobby [~fms@189.170.16.14] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 19:43:59 ehu [~ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 19:43:59 -!- drmeiste_ [~drmeister@wirelessNAT188.wireless.temple.edu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:44:11 drmeister [~drmeister@wirelessNAT188.wireless.temple.edu] has joined #lisp 19:49:02 drmeiste_ [~drmeister@wirelessNAT188.wireless.temple.edu] has joined #lisp 19:49:22 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@wirelessNAT188.wireless.temple.edu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:50:16 -!- drmeiste_ [~drmeister@wirelessNAT188.wireless.temple.edu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:50:41 drmeister [~drmeister@wirelessNAT188.wireless.temple.edu] has joined #lisp 19:53:12 -!- eldariof [~CLD@pppoe-197-211-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has quit [] 19:53:43 -!- pnpuff [~dioxirane@gateway/tor-sasl/pnpuff] has quit [Quit: non confundar in aeternum] 19:53:55 -!- Ralt [~Ralt@89-92-204-200.hfc.dyn.abo.bbox.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:54:06 -!- svetlyak40wt [~svetlyak4@broadband-95-84-141-55.nationalcablenetworks.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:54:22 przl [~przlrkt@p54BF8F02.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 19:58:08 -!- strobegen [~strobegen@64.120.223.138] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:59:12 drewc, http://www.gnu.org/software/guix/ 19:59:35 the main author was my comrade at school(!) 20:00:31 a very bright guy, though quirky too. He had a reputation for fast (and accurate) thinking -- and not amongst idiots. 20:02:59 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@wirelessNAT188.wireless.temple.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:04:21 strz [~strobegen@64.120.223.138] has joined #lisp 20:04:22 -!- strz is now known as strobegen 20:04:38 -!- _d3f [~freedo@nl2.ovpn.to] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:04:40 drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has joined #lisp 20:05:09 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-167-227.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:05:25 stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-224-184.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 20:06:13 svetlyak40wt [~svetlyak4@broadband-95-84-141-55.nationalcablenetworks.ru] has joined #lisp 20:10:53 Ralt [~ralt@89-92-204-200.hfc.dyn.abo.bbox.fr] has joined #lisp 20:16:25 Kalculus [~na@x40343ce2.ip.e-nt.net] has joined #lisp 20:17:22 juvi [~jukka@a88-114-62-93.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 20:19:09 Bike [~Glossina@63-229-134-7.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 20:21:00 pnpuff [~dioxirane@gateway/tor-sasl/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 20:21:19 normanrichards [~normanric@rrcs-108-178-120-144.sw.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:23:10 -!- pnpuff [~dioxirane@gateway/tor-sasl/pnpuff] has left #lisp 20:23:10 pnpuff [~dioxirane@gateway/tor-sasl/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 20:24:00 -!- lemonodor [~jwiseman@cpe-75-83-152-209.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: lemonodor] 20:24:39 -!- tigranes [~tigranes@static-50-53-64-180.bvtn.or.frontiernet.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:24:42 -!- pnpuff [~dioxirane@gateway/tor-sasl/pnpuff] has quit [Client Quit] 20:26:57 pnpuff [~dioxirane@gateway/tor-sasl/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 20:27:36 bremner [~bremner@debian/developer/bremner] has joined #lisp 20:32:10 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-66-159.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 20:35:33 -!- mon_key` [~user@74-143-70-82.static.insightbb.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:36:01 mon_key` [~user@74-143-70-82.static.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 20:37:42 tcr [~tcr@77-56-40-229.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 20:38:59 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p54BF8F02.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:39:45 przl [~przlrkt@p54BF8F02.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 20:41:39 jynnantonix [~textual@140.247.0.99] has joined #lisp 20:41:58 -!- pnpuff [~dioxirane@gateway/tor-sasl/pnpuff] has quit [Quit: talk, talk, talk: the utter and heartbreaking stupidity of words.] 20:42:17 -!- tcr [~tcr@77-56-40-229.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:44:24 -!- Straylight [~user@data.expressionanalysis.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:45:09 leoc [~leoc.git@p5480A924.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:47:31 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-66-159.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:50:07 -!- brown`` [user@nat/google/x-pxtouztkruungefv] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:50:11 -!- sdemarre [~serge@109.134.176.104] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:50:21 CatMtKing [~CatMtKing@ed-uluka.dyn.ucr.edu] has joined #lisp 20:50:26 -!- victor_lowther [~victorlow@143.166.116.80] has quit [Quit: Leaving IRC - dircproxy 1.2.0] 20:53:12 -!- CatMtKing [~CatMtKing@ed-uluka.dyn.ucr.edu] has left #lisp 20:53:22 CatMtKing [~CatMtKing@ed-uluka.dyn.ucr.edu] has joined #lisp 20:54:07 -!- CatMtKing [~CatMtKing@ed-uluka.dyn.ucr.edu] has left #lisp 20:54:19 CatMtKing [~CatMtKing@ed-uluka.dyn.ucr.edu] has joined #lisp 20:54:32 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@129.174.219.178] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 20:55:52 -!- svetlyak40wt [~svetlyak4@broadband-95-84-141-55.nationalcablenetworks.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:56:56 brown` [user@nat/google/x-zjblkdrmvciwcbab] has joined #lisp 20:57:22 victor_lowther [~victorlow@143.166.116.80] has joined #lisp 20:57:35 -!- n2kra [~n2kra@pool-74-102-3-68.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:58:55 prxq_ [~mommer@mnhm-5f75e254.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 20:59:43 andytoshi [~username@gateway/tor-sasl/andytoshi] has joined #lisp 21:00:07 Fare: look quite interesting indeed. Is it like Nixos, where is has functional packages essentially, with all the old things available and bootable via grub? because I would much prefer lisp over ad-hoc shell scripts, even though both of those are things I like and do 21:00:14 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-590c1d01.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:01:03 zolk3ri1 [~Zol1ka@catv-89-132-196-182.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 21:01:42 -!- Ralt [~ralt@89-92-204-200.hfc.dyn.abo.bbox.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:02:20 adelgado [~TomSawyer@65.23.61.98.nw.nuvox.net] has joined #lisp 21:02:39 n2kra [~n2kra@pool-74-102-3-68.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:03:31 -!- Dalek_Baldwin [~Adium@71-84-34-33.dhcp.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:04:56 -!- blackwolf [~blackwolf@ool-4574e84c.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:05:08 toekutr [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 21:06:51 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 21:11:25 -!- prxq_ is now known as prxq 21:13:03 bitonic [~user@027b68cc.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 21:14:40 Dalek_Baldwin [~Adium@71-84-34-33.dhcp.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has joined #lisp 21:14:47 is there a way to mix CLSQL syntax with just an SQL string, it seems like it doesn't have support for joins. 21:19:56 drewc: it says that's it pretty much is like Nix 21:21:24 dlowe: yeah, reading about it now. Going to install it in my KVM on my thinkpad first, but excited already :) 21:23:08 I'm not clear on its utility without a distro repository... 21:23:21 I like Nix, save for I prefer the syntax of sexps and I am willing to put up with a lot for linux as it cannot be as bad as 1996 i figure... and have not changed distros since then. 21:23:44 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@173-228-44-92.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:24:20 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-174-29.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 21:25:09 -!- `fogus is now known as fogus|gone 21:25:54 -!- zacts [~lcc@unaffiliated/zacts] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:32:02 zacts [~user@unaffiliated/zacts] has joined #lisp 21:32:32 breakds [~breakds@ppp-70-226-163-93.dsl.mdsnwi.ameritech.net] has joined #lisp 21:32:40 -!- Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:34:29 luqui [~luqui@c-98-245-83-250.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:35:18 drewc: nix also for the desktop? 21:38:23 tcr [~tcr@77-56-40-229.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 21:40:39 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:40:53 int3__ [~int3__@vlan409-146.subnet-248.amherst.edu] has joined #lisp 21:41:09 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-3-211.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 21:41:47 is it possible to initialize an object without specifying the field names, but relying on the order that the fields were specified in instead? 21:42:30 like (defclass foo (T) ((bar))) ; (make-instance 'foo 1) 21:42:51 -!- tcr [~tcr@77-56-40-229.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:42:57 and have 1 correspond to the 'bar field since it is the first field in the class 21:42:58 int3__: no 21:43:01 antonv [5d7d2a66@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.42.102] has joined #lisp 21:43:09 hmm okay 21:43:48 int3__: you might be tempted to write yourself a macro for that, but it is probably better if you don't and rather embrace the standard clos syntax 21:43:49 -!- em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Quit: As a wild ass in the desert go I forth to my work] 21:44:08 -!- nialo [nialo@ool-44c53fec.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:44:18 nialo [nialo@ool-44c53fec.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 21:44:37 H4ns: yeah I don't really mind. I'm just reading a scheme book now and it seems to use that syntax, so I was wondering if clos had something similar 21:47:48 int3__: anonymous initialisers don't work very well with (multiple, worse, diamond) inheritance. 21:48:12 -!- ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.186] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:48:27 pkhuong: ah, that makes sense... thanks for explaining :) 21:49:21 alesguzik [~alesguzik@178.121.151.210] has joined #lisp 21:49:49 I don't know if that's the reason, but it's certainly a reason for not making that the default (also, keywords help the MOP) 21:50:07 pkhuong: are you aware of a convenient way to call sbcl from matlab? 21:50:31 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:50:42 -!- Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:50:49 prxq: I am using nixos on my thinkpad notebook/tablet, so 'desktop' it is, though I do not own a desk :) 21:51:11 ok! 21:52:38 prxq: matlab has its own GC and codegen, right? Mixing runtimes usually ends very badly. I'd try to see if matlab already has a shared memory/socket thing (maybe what they use for the java GUI?). 21:53:53 it is great simply because I only install what I need and can rollback if I do not like things .. and can run multiple versions at once, etc. Of course, I am quite simple in my software usage ... emacs + a web browser + a terminal for desktop usage. 21:54:14 the rest is all Common Lisp of course 21:54:15 emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 21:54:34 drewc: I admire your discipline. 21:54:41 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:54:59 *prxq* recently went from gnus to claws mail for lack of time to debug its config 21:55:07 gnus config 21:55:15 pkhuong: I feared as much. 21:55:27 -!- agumonkey [~agu@138.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:55:34 pkhuong: but you are right that they probably have a kind of interface for that already 21:56:20 -!- emma is now known as em 21:57:15 prxq: if you can have mmapped data, I pasted a snippet to support mmaped vectors in SBCL. Shared mapping and a bit of messaging wouldn't be too bad, for arrays in fortran order. 21:59:10 -!- bremner [~bremner@debian/developer/bremner] has left #lisp 22:00:17 pkhuong: where did you paste it? 22:00:26 Just found it: http://paste.lisp.org/display/134531 22:00:29 heh ok 22:01:23 thanks pkhuong, I'll take a look. 22:02:02 btw, lisppaste has spam again 22:04:26 hm, so sbcl (simple-?) arrays have a two word header 22:04:37 -!- juvi [~jukka@a88-114-62-93.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Quit: juvi] 22:05:20 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-3-211.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:05:24 Bike: well, everything but CONSes have a one-word header, and simple arrays use an additional words for the length. Packing the length in the header word would result in much smaller array size limits. 22:05:54 makes sense. 22:06:11 and complex and multidimensional arrays have ones for dimensionality and the fill pointer and such. 22:07:19 nemume [~nemu@243.Red-83-61-35.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 22:08:14 pkhuong: did you port that CG to lisp? 22:08:32 DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@1.149.231.189] has joined #lisp 22:09:57 -!- Joreji [~thomas@87-188.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:10:10 KingsKnighted [~quassel@c-174-52-149-13.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:10:40 prxq: no, I went for a much simpler one that exploited the structure of my problem to stupidly bisect exact line searches. 22:12:30 pkhuong: still CG? 22:12:47 but with problem dependent line search? 22:14:57 right, and right. 22:15:56 -!- archonix [~unknown@78.90.30.16] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:16:00 i reckon you get good convergence... 22:16:44 for mail I use mu4e and offline-imap, no gnus is good gnus ;) 22:17:29 Well, decent enough to probably be competitive with state of the art LP solvers after heroic coding and parallelisation. log barriers are no fun, so I'm taking a step back to work with quadratic penalties instead. 22:18:14 -!- scharan [~scharan@169.235.25.47] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.7] 22:19:20 and my other domain is gmail hosted, just in case things go really really wrong. Google employs lispers, so that is somehow on topic, though I will stop now. 22:20:04 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-174-29.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:20:51 and a decent matrix-free LP/QP solver in CL would be awesome, so this is almost on topic ;) 22:21:41 -!- teiresias [~teiresias@archlinux/trusteduser/teiresias] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:22:52 pkhuong: big sparse lp/qp solvers, you mean? 22:23:05 decent is hard 22:27:14 slyrus [~chatzilla@173-228-44-92.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 22:27:45 -!- DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:28:04 -!- nemume [~nemu@243.Red-83-61-35.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 22:28:09 nemume [~nemu@14.Red-79-154-75.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 22:28:24 teiresias [~teiresias@archlinux/trusteduser/teiresias] has joined #lisp 22:29:16 prxq: matrix-free and parallel. 22:29:38 drewc: if scheme is your 3rd, what's your 2nd favorite language? 22:30:47 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 22:31:40 kernel 22:32:17 -!- KingsKnighted [~quassel@c-174-52-149-13.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:32:44 prxq: so yeah, big and sparse, but also big and structured. 22:34:03 Fare: common lisp 22:34:57 pkhuong: I only find a paper by Gondzio on the matter 22:35:21 drewc: and the 1st? 22:35:38 drewc: ok, what's the first, then? 22:36:55 -!- pavelpenev [~quassel@85-130-11-8.2073813645.shumen.cablebg.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:39:13 tcr [~tcr@77-56-40-229.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 22:39:23 well, at this point, Kernel on top of "Common" Common Lisp... but in reality ... "CLtL3 : the uncommon common lisp" or "something that is really does exist but is not yet united" etc. "Imagine Lisp" perhaps. 22:40:19 imagine there's no pathnames 22:40:53 haha 22:40:55 -!- HG` [~HG@wprt-4db6d6d8.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:41:02 I wonder if you try ... and packages below us, above us only PI 22:42:51 imagine all the people writing code in lisp 22:43:31 awful 22:43:34 cyro [~Adium@adsl-75-18-217-219.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:43:37 -!- tcr [~tcr@77-56-40-229.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:43:40 how would be beat the avearanges then? 22:43:48 -!- Dalek_Baldwin [~Adium@71-84-34-33.dhcp.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:43:50 if they all write code in lisp? 22:44:10 we'll find something to be smug about anyhow 22:44:30 DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has joined #lisp 22:44:48 *sykopomp* has been itching to play with peval on operatives again, lately. 22:44:52 i hope so 22:44:54 drewc: Kernel is also my favorite, or would be if I could actually use it (there was a decent implementation around). 22:45:10 -!- jynnantonix [~textual@140.247.0.99] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com] 22:45:39 I've been trying to figure out what the JS-based kernel was. I got a link to its github repo once and I seem to have forgotten to star it :) 22:45:43 :(* 22:45:50 Maybe Wart? 22:46:06 nemume: I have done 3 really, but that was way back when and I am going to start again, because now I know a wee bit more. 22:46:39 drewc: three what? implementations of Kernel? 22:46:46 and I want in integrated with CL, because i am a madman 22:46:50 https://github.com/marianoguerra/squim hmmm 22:47:23 I really want a Kernel compiler that optimizes away operatives :( 22:47:27 drewc: if your intention is to let the 'standardisation' happen through the community, community lisp might be something you could aim for. you'd be able to steal the CLtL naming :P 22:47:44 I'm not really sure it's worth pursuing kernel if that cost can't be removed. 22:47:49 I've toyed with this one: https://github.com/manuel/wat-js 22:47:59 (It's not Kernel, but it's quite similar) 22:47:59 -!- kmels [~kmels@frbg-5d84fcb8.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 22:48:07 nemume: yup. The first was how I learned about Kernel really, the second an interpreter, and the third a compilation-type madness 22:48:11 Also "klisp". 22:48:20 -!- stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-224-184.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 22:48:23 But every implementation out there is dog slow. 22:48:30 madnificent: steal? I cannot steal from myself! ;) 22:49:24 sykopomp: how would the compiler go about optimizing them? 22:49:33 tcr [~tcr@84-72-21-32.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 22:50:09 nemume: if they're used in the same contexts as macros would be used, I believe you can optimize away the vast majority of operatives at compile time. 22:50:26 I don't think it's possible at all. 22:50:35 lmj` [~lmj`@c-71-234-72-249.hsd1.ct.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:50:41 (well, at least with my pretty limited understanding of how Kernel works) 22:50:49 sykopomp: yes you can, in a certain sense... 22:51:07 At least not at compile-time, since you don't know whether arguments for anything will be evaluated or not. 22:51:33 nemume: you can, and it's not too hard to get a basic prototype of it working. vau was designed to allow this, even though it's never actually been fully implemented afaict 22:52:02 Ralith had a partially-working implementation that certainly got rid of a good chunk of them but ran into some issues with recursion iirc (probably can be worked around) 22:52:03 of course, that is where the fun begins... there is no 'times' per se, but yeah what sykopomp said. 22:52:06 but that was a couple of years ago, I think. 22:52:16 Mmmm. 22:52:38 -!- ehu [~ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:52:42 It appears unspecified what happens when you write to a closed stream, and checking open-stream-p isn't sufficient when sockets are involved. 22:52:55 I suppose a CDR proposal would be to raise a stream error, as SBCL does. 22:52:55 ASau` [~user@46.115.64.14] has joined #lisp 22:53:24 I mean, pretty much any case where your vau isn't doing certain side-effects outside of eval, you can optimize the whole vau away into a (safe) macroexpansion. 22:53:30 or somesuch 22:53:43 CCL signals an error, but it's not a stream-error. 22:54:47 -!- ASau [~user@46.115.64.14] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:54:52 tentative8e8op [~tb@cpe-67-49-139-65.hawaii.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:55:13 sykopomp: but... how do you get to analyze each vau at compile-time? 22:55:22 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@1.149.231.189] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 22:55:40 partial evaluation 22:55:49 *sykopomp* jazz hands. 22:55:51 Say: (something (vau...)) I don't know at compile-time whether that 'vau' will... 22:56:13 Mmmm. 22:56:51 Any interesting paper on it? 22:57:00 Dalek_Baldwin [~Adium@108-225-26-178.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:57:21 *sykopomp* doesn't have all his old links handy. :( 22:58:09 for the backlog: there doesn't seem to be a way to construct a join statement in clsql. selecting from meltiple tables is done by :from '([table-one] [table-two]). you can easily build the rest with the where statement. 22:58:48 nemume: jshutt's thesis went into it some. i've had it suggested that a good kernel implementation would just use a JIT compiler and forget static analysis. 22:59:32 worstadmin [~worst@174.141.213.16] has joined #lisp 22:59:34 -!- myx [~myx@pppoe-194-164-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has quit [Quit: ] 22:59:41 -!- natechan [~natechan@50-192-61-46-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]] 23:01:13 Bike: one of us contacted jshutt while working on a compiler for it, and he didn't really provide much specific insight into actually implementing this stuff. He hasn't done so, himself, iirc. 23:01:19 it just "should probably be possible maybe" 23:01:45 yeah, that's what i meant by "some" :/ 23:01:57 his thesis has more than the spec, anyhow. 23:02:00 Bike: that would the most sensible strategy IMHO. 23:02:17 at the very least, he definitely seems to have kept in mind possible optimizations and restricted the language accordingly 23:02:27 natechan [~natechan@50-192-61-46-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 23:02:31 but it may need more or fewer restrictions once someone actually pulls off a proper compiler. 23:02:41 I would probably try to implement an interpreter in RPython and leverage the Pypy JIT if I were to implement Kernel. 23:03:10 or just use LLVM 23:03:59 sykopomp: the environment hygeine stuff sounds good, but i tried working out partially evaulating $sequence on paper and ran into issues... 23:07:21 In my experiments, the way I've found to be the most practical (as: simpler to implement, better performance) is to separate lambda and vau. 23:07:25 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.99.220] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:07:48 (so no wrap/unwrap either) 23:08:45 In any case, that wouldn't be Kernel, it would be something similar to or vaguely resembling Kernel. :) 23:09:41 -!- em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:11:21 -!- stopbit [~stopbit@static-108-48-124-82.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:11:46 em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 23:14:10 ISF [~ivan@189.61.223.79] has joined #lisp 23:15:23 Jubb [~ghost@pool-108-28-62-61.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:15:36 -!- segv- [~mb@dslb-094-223-014-173.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: segv-] 23:16:29 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-5f75e254.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:17:09 k0001 [~k0001@host244.200-117-37.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 23:17:48 -!- Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:20:40 -!- luqui [~luqui@c-98-245-83-250.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: luqui] 23:26:58 luqui [~luqui@c-98-245-83-250.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:27:45 kuzary [~who@gateway/tor-sasl/kuzary] has joined #lisp 23:30:34 -!- victor_lowther [~victorlow@143.166.116.80] has quit [Quit: Leaving IRC - dircproxy 1.2.0] 23:31:00 -!- worstadmin [~worst@174.141.213.16] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:31:02 francisl [~anonymous@69.157.141.151] has joined #lisp 23:31:27 -!- zolk3ri1 [~Zol1ka@catv-89-132-196-182.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:33:28 -!- eataix [eataix@unaffiliated/eataix] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in] 23:33:38 youlysses [~user@75-132-21-229.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 23:33:39 bananagram [~bot@c-98-198-236-112.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:33:51 -!- luqui [luqui@clozure-7EEDB391.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: luqui] 23:33:52 -!- luqui [~luqui@c-98-245-83-250.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: luqui] 23:33:55 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p54BF8F02.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:34:43 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 23:37:13 DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@1.148.159.61] has joined #lisp 23:37:31 -!- AeroNotix [~xeno@abov214.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: Uploading hax.....] 23:40:05 tcr1 [~tcr@77-56-40-229.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 23:40:51 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:41:17 -!- lmj` [~lmj`@c-71-234-72-249.hsd1.ct.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 23:41:49 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@rrcs-108-178-120-144.sw.biz.rr.com] has quit [] 23:44:20 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@77-56-40-229.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:45:33 -!- tcr [~tcr@84-72-21-32.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:48:00 -!- karswell` [~user@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:48:46 -!- leoc [~leoc.git@p5480A924.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:50:35 -!- replcated [~user@static-241-143-171-68.axsne.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:51:56 -!- breakds [~breakds@ppp-70-226-163-93.dsl.mdsnwi.ameritech.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 23:52:04 sabalaba [~Adium@c-76-21-4-232.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:53:28 -!- natechan [~natechan@50-192-61-46-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]] 23:54:47 luqui [~luqui@63-227-115-208.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 23:57:11 linse [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1177917310.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 23:57:25 Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 23:58:20 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-185-82-146.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:59:37 przl [~przlrkt@p54BF8F02.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp