00:01:22 -!- adelgado [~TomSawyer@65.23.61.98.nw.nuvox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 00:03:35 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-96-240-138-223.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 00:03:45 kiwnix [~egarcia@kiwnix-1-pt.tunnel.tserv5.lon1.ipv6.he.net] has joined #lisp 00:08:28 -!- dRbiG [drbig@unhallowed.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:10:23 -!- smazga [~smazga@li336-165.members.linode.com] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8] 00:11:50 -!- natechan [~natechan@50-192-61-46-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]] 00:12:15 dRbiG [drbig@unhallowed.pl] has joined #lisp 00:13:07 -!- dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 00:16:04 normanrichards [~normanric@70.114.215.220] has joined #lisp 00:18:43 -!- ldionmarcil [~ldm@unaffiliated/maden] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:20:09 -!- segv- [~mb@dslb-088-075-150-252.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: segv-] 00:21:48 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:21:51 -!- youlysses [~user@75-132-17-145.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:21:54 -!- tigranes [~tigranes@23.19.35.180] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:22:57 ldionmarcil [~ldm@unaffiliated/maden] has joined #lisp 00:23:35 -!- gigamonkey [~textual@199.188.194.204] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 00:24:17 mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-96-240-138-223.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:24:22 segmond_ [~segmond@adsl-108-73-167-235.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:27:15 AntiTyping [~apliszka@74.73.56.156] has joined #lisp 00:27:23 -!- doomlord [~doomlod@host86-171-15-248.range86-171.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:27:51 -!- segmond [~segmond@99.102.151.78] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:30:09 -!- karupanerura [~karupaner@www5325uf.sakura.ne.jp] has quit [Excess Flood] 00:34:07 karupanerura [~karupaner@www5325uf.sakura.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 00:35:08 ISF [~ivan@189.61.223.79] has joined #lisp 00:36:01 bitonic [~user@5ad2b911.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 00:36:05 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-96-240-138-223.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 00:37:11 mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-96-240-138-223.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:37:58 with-upgradability ? with-superseding-definitions ? 00:39:15 what name for a macro that tweaks the defuns so (1) they supersede any previous definition (2) they are not inlined, so further redefinitions will indeed have deterministic behavior ? 00:41:02 youlysses [~user@75-132-17-145.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 00:42:26 -!- lemonodor [~jwiseman@cpe-75-83-152-209.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: lemonodor] 00:42:34 Fare: without-inlining 00:43:03 Fare: or perhaps disable-inlining is nicer 00:43:27 -!- ldionmarcil [~ldm@unaffiliated/maden] has quit [Quit: quit] 00:44:16 also includes doing a fmakunbound before a defun or defgeneric 00:44:33 (depending on the implementation, and only for select functions, actually) 00:44:57 linse [~marioooh@out-pq-233.wireless.telus.com] has joined #lisp 00:45:28 in the future, might conceivably include some non-trivial symbol shadowing magic 00:46:16 leoncamel [~leoncamel@124.126.161.84] has joined #lisp 00:46:22 lemonodor [~jwiseman@adsl-76-214-6-234.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:47:40 Fare: with-predictable-redefinitions ? perhaps i don't fully grasp what it's supposed to be used ofr 00:47:43 s/ofr/fro/ 00:47:47 s/fro/for/ grrrr 00:48:42 it's to be used in asdf to make sure hot upgrade just works 00:51:05 -!- leoncamel [~leoncamel@124.126.161.84] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:52:07 Fare: i think with-upgradable-definitions (or with-upgradable-functions) would give me a decent indication of what you're doing. 00:52:22 sirdancealot7 [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 00:52:59 -!- jynnantonix [~textual@140.247.0.102] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 00:53:15 with-upgradability ? 00:53:25 I like with-upgradable-definitions but it's also a bit long 00:53:39 long form is good! 00:54:52 as long as "upgradable" is a good name, an it is for all definitions and not just DEFUNs, that makes sense to me 00:55:12 Fare: it is longer, yes. for some reason it tells me more what is going on. it's not harder to type: (w-u-d will likely work) 00:57:02 so far, only defun and defgeneric have special treatment. 00:57:03 Fare: with-upgradability works too though. it hints me at the upgrading of some internal DSL, instead of 'normal' lisp code, if that somehow makes sense. your code, you get to pick 00:57:27 I'll stick to with-upgradability for now. 00:57:46 defvar and defparameter have upgrading semantics already, so you could count those as covered too. 00:58:05 should I reindent all my code two spaces right? 00:58:43 and everything is in an eval-when, too, because the code being upgraded my be in the continuation of compile-file 00:59:06 not only "may be", but "very likely is", indeed 00:59:22 in the case of asdf 01:00:49 the reindentation makes me sigh. 01:01:28 Fare: if it is like that for all files you could place them in separate files and #'read the file's contents inside teh eval-when and with-upgradability. that would leave the indentation off. don't know how others feel about it, and in what ways it will break tools like slime. 01:01:39 *Fare* opts for one with-upgradability () form per ;;; subsection of a file. 01:02:16 madnificent: what of asdf.lisp being distributed as a single file? 01:02:20 -!- les [moreorles@fsf/member/les] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 01:02:36 or do you advocate distributing it as a directory of files instead? 01:02:59 Fare: i'm not voicing a preference on that front 01:03:29 drewc: any opinion on reindentation? 01:03:38 Fare: however, if you have only one file, what i suggested will not work. 01:03:41 les [moreorles@lesharris.com] has joined #lisp 01:03:41 -!- les [moreorles@lesharris.com] has quit [Changing host] 01:03:41 les [moreorles@fsf/member/les] has joined #lisp 01:03:43 do you indent code under an eval-when ? 01:03:44 *madnificent* is pro-indentation 01:04:30 emphatically, yes 01:04:44 (emacs indents it, and so should you) 01:05:18 *jasom* indents it 01:06:15 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 01:06:45 so is it OK to magically tweak the "toplevel" defun's inside my with-upgradability, or should I leave the tweaked defun's as defun* ? 01:06:55 I'm inclined to write defun 01:07:27 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-96-240-138-223.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 01:07:30 except when I'm using non-defun-compatible variants of defun* 01:08:41 -!- CatMtKing [~CatMtKing@ed-uluka.dyn.ucr.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:08:54 imho, if the macro is supposed to make upgrading transparant, shadowing defun could make sense. as long as you can still do whatever you used to be able to do with defun. 01:09:09 as in, as long as you don't break the interface 01:10:14 -!- qNemo [~qN@89.207.216.208] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:10:15 -!- insomniaSalt [~milan@lvps5-35-242-57.dedicated.hosteurope.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 01:10:25 insomniaSalt [~milan@lvps5-35-242-57.dedicated.hosteurope.de] has joined #lisp 01:11:22 qptain_Nemo [~qN@89.207.216.208] has joined #lisp 01:13:25 DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@120.154.21.58] has joined #lisp 01:14:00 -!- foreignFunction [~niksaak@94.27.89.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:14:48 francisl [~anonymous@bas3-montreal42-1242354060.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 01:15:34 yup 01:15:50 I can do slightly more -- but when I do, I'll use defun* 01:15:53 explicitly 01:16:02 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:16:24 -!- antgreen [~green@dsl-207-112-126-155.tor.primus.ca] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:16:30 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 01:16:51 foreignFunction [~niksaak@94.27.89.162] has joined #lisp 01:17:34 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-185-82-146.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:18:23 antgreen [~green@dsl-207-112-126-155.tor.primus.ca] has joined #lisp 01:19:16 -!- bananagram [~bot@c-98-198-236-112.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 01:20:24 -!- kiwnix [~egarcia@kiwnix-1-pt.tunnel.tserv5.lon1.ipv6.he.net] has quit [Changing host] 01:20:25 kiwnix [~egarcia@unaffiliated/kiwnix] has joined #lisp 01:24:26 ebobby [~fms@189.170.16.14] has joined #lisp 01:29:16 should asdf-user use most of asdf-driver, or as little as possible? 01:29:26 -!- k0001 [~k0001@host142.190-137-201.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 01:29:29 currently, only uses asdf/package and asdf/common-lisp 01:29:45 it can't use asdf/run-program, out of backward compatibility with sb-grovel 01:29:59 but could conceivably use all the rest of asdf/driver 01:30:28 Tullius [~alemnaru@205.185.218.248] has joined #lisp 01:30:31 -!- Tullius [~alemnaru@205.185.218.248] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 01:31:16 k0001 [~k0001@host28.186-109-176.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 01:31:24 Tullius [~alemnaru@205.185.218.248] has joined #lisp 01:31:32 -!- tcr [~tcr@84-72-21-32.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:31:38 -!- Tullius [~alemnaru@205.185.218.248] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 01:32:41 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@50-196-148-102-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 01:32:48 Tullius [~alemnaru@205.185.218.248] has joined #lisp 01:33:03 kpreid [~kpreid@50-196-148-102-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 01:33:04 -!- Tullius [~alemnaru@205.185.218.248] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 01:33:35 -!- Joreji [~thomas@87-188.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:34:04 Tullius [~alemnaru@205.185.218.248] has joined #lisp 01:34:17 -!- Tullius [~alemnaru@205.185.218.248] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 01:35:24 Tullius [~alemnaru@205.185.218.248] has joined #lisp 01:35:37 -!- Tullius [~alemnaru@205.185.218.248] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 01:35:55 -!- pierre1 [~pierre1@186.205.212.50] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:36:39 Tullius [~alemnaru@205.185.218.248] has joined #lisp 01:36:42 -!- Tullius [~alemnaru@205.185.218.248] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 01:37:59 Tullius [~alemnaru@205.185.218.248] has joined #lisp 01:38:15 -!- Tullius [~alemnaru@205.185.218.248] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 01:38:33 when in *slime-threads*, is it possible to make a thread break so you can see where it is at? 01:38:52 -!- lemonodor [~jwiseman@adsl-76-214-6-234.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: lemonodor] 01:40:25 Tullius [~alemnaru@205.185.218.248] has joined #lisp 01:40:28 -!- Tullius [~alemnaru@205.185.218.248] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 01:40:55 Tullius [~alemnaru@205.185.218.248] has joined #lisp 01:41:08 -!- Tullius [~alemnaru@205.185.218.248] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 01:41:54 flyingyellow [~flying@ckc-110-226.ResHall.Berkeley.EDU] has joined #lisp 01:41:54 Tullius [~alemnaru@205.185.218.248] has joined #lisp 01:42:09 -!- Tullius [~alemnaru@205.185.218.248] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 01:42:27 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-185-82-146.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:43:30 Tullius [~alemnaru@205.185.218.248] has joined #lisp 01:43:44 -!- Tullius [~alemnaru@205.185.218.248] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 01:44:04 -!- k-stz [~user@2a02:8070:22c1:f001:e269:95ff:fe38:b215] has left #lisp 01:44:58 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-185-82-146.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:45:17 lemonodor [~jwiseman@cpe-75-83-152-209.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:45:28 i've search slime-info but couln't find anything related. there's a thread which seems to be in some sort of livelock or endless loop. i want to catch it. 01:45:34 Tullius [~alemnaru@205.185.218.248] has joined #lisp 01:45:37 -!- Tullius [~alemnaru@205.185.218.248] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 01:46:29 Tullius [~alemnaru@205.185.218.248] has joined #lisp 01:46:45 -!- Tullius [~alemnaru@205.185.218.248] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 01:48:54 Tullius [~alemnaru@205.185.218.248] has joined #lisp 01:49:08 -!- Tullius [~alemnaru@205.185.218.248] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 01:49:17 pierre1 [~pierre1@186.205.212.50] has joined #lisp 01:49:18 eli [~eli@racket/eli] has joined #lisp 01:50:29 Tullius [~alemnaru@205.185.218.248] has joined #lisp 01:50:32 -!- Tullius [~alemnaru@205.185.218.248] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 01:51:12 -!- zolk3ri [~Zol1ka@unaffiliated/zolk3ri] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:52:24 Tullius [~alemnaru@205.185.218.248] has joined #lisp 01:52:37 -!- Tullius [~alemnaru@205.185.218.248] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 01:52:59 -!- bitonic [~user@5ad2b911.bb.sky.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:53:44 Tullius [~alemnaru@205.185.218.248] has joined #lisp 01:53:58 -!- Tullius [~alemnaru@205.185.218.248] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 01:54:07 svs_ [~svs@97.72.244.102] has joined #lisp 01:56:04 Tullius [~alemnaru@205.185.218.248] has joined #lisp 01:56:18 -!- Tullius [~alemnaru@205.185.218.248] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 01:56:26 mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-96-240-138-223.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:58:00 Tullius [~alemnaru@205.185.218.248] has joined #lisp 01:58:14 -!- Tullius [~alemnaru@205.185.218.248] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 01:59:10 Tullius [~alemnaru@205.185.218.248] has joined #lisp 01:59:24 -!- Tullius [~alemnaru@205.185.218.248] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 02:01:05 Tullius [~alemnaru@205.185.218.248] has joined #lisp 02:01:20 -!- Tullius [~alemnaru@205.185.218.248] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 02:03:00 Tullius [~alemnaru@205.185.218.248] has joined #lisp 02:03:13 -!- Tullius [~alemnaru@205.185.218.248] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 02:04:30 Tullius [~alemnaru@205.185.218.248] has joined #lisp 02:04:43 -!- Tullius [~alemnaru@205.185.218.248] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 02:06:40 Tullius [~alemnaru@205.185.218.248] has joined #lisp 02:06:54 -!- Tullius [~alemnaru@205.185.218.248] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 02:07:55 Tullius [~alemnaru@205.185.218.248] has joined #lisp 02:08:09 -!- Tullius [~alemnaru@205.185.218.248] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 02:08:43 I'm running into an issue with sbcl 1.1.3 on osx 10.8 where running any of the lispbuilder-sdl, cl-glfw, or cl-glut examples all cause a FLOATING-POINT-INEXACT error. If the main functions are wrapped like: (sb-int:with-float-traps-masked (:invalid :divide-by-zero) (main)) - I'm able to get a working window and event loop but I'm wondering about what might be causing this and whether wrapping main is a viable 02:08:43 workaround. 02:08:59 http://paste.lisp.org/display/135247 02:09:19 Tullius [~alemnaru@205.185.218.248] has joined #lisp 02:09:35 -!- Tullius [~alemnaru@205.185.218.248] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 02:09:54 -!- techlife [techlife@112.249.91.29] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:10:29 danlentz [~danlentz@2601:c:3680:1c:10e:1d7d:cdba:7ae1] has joined #lisp 02:10:34 -!- cfy [~ilisp@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:11:15 Tullius [~alemnaru@205.185.218.248] has joined #lisp 02:11:17 -!- Tullius [~alemnaru@205.185.218.248] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 02:12:20 Tullius [~alemnaru@205.185.218.248] has joined #lisp 02:12:33 -!- Tullius [~alemnaru@205.185.218.248] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 02:13:36 natechan [~natechan@c-71-56-124-186.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:14:39 Tullius [~alemnaru@205.185.218.248] has joined #lisp 02:14:53 -!- Tullius [~alemnaru@205.185.218.248] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 02:15:21 techlife [techlife@112.249.91.29] has joined #lisp 02:16:34 Tullius [~alemnaru@205.185.218.248] has joined #lisp 02:16:48 -!- Tullius [~alemnaru@205.185.218.248] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 02:17:42 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-185-82-146.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:18:10 Tullius [~alemnaru@205.185.218.248] has joined #lisp 02:18:11 -!- svs_ [~svs@97.72.244.102] has quit [Quit: svs_] 02:18:24 -!- Tullius [~alemnaru@205.185.218.248] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 02:19:03 dnolen [~user@cpe-74-64-61-245.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:19:40 Tullius [~alemnaru@205.185.218.248] has joined #lisp 02:19:40 -!- zulu_inuoe_ [~quassel@184.89.111.53] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:19:53 -!- Tullius [~alemnaru@205.185.218.248] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 02:21:20 Tullius [~alemnaru@205.185.218.248] has joined #lisp 02:21:24 zulu_inuoe_ [~quassel@184.89.111.53] has joined #lisp 02:21:33 -!- Tullius [~alemnaru@205.185.218.248] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 02:22:38 leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.66] has joined #lisp 02:23:50 Tullius [~alemnaru@205.185.218.248] has joined #lisp 02:24:05 -!- Tullius [~alemnaru@205.185.218.248] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 02:24:40 Tullius [~alemnaru@205.185.218.248] has joined #lisp 02:24:54 -!- Tullius [~alemnaru@205.185.218.248] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 02:25:01 -!- strobegen [~strobegen@64.120.223.138] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:25:40 bananagram [~bot@c-98-198-236-112.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:26:45 Tullius [~alemnaru@205.185.218.248] has joined #lisp 02:27:00 -!- Tullius [~alemnaru@205.185.218.248] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 02:27:50 Tullius [~alemnaru@205.185.218.248] has joined #lisp 02:28:04 -!- Tullius [~alemnaru@205.185.218.248] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 02:29:21 Tullius [~alemnaru@205.185.218.248] has joined #lisp 02:29:27 strz [~strobegen@64.120.223.138] has joined #lisp 02:29:29 -!- strz is now known as strobegen 02:29:36 -!- Tullius [~alemnaru@205.185.218.248] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 02:29:51 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-185-82-146.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:30:52 Tullius [~alemnaru@205.185.218.248] has joined #lisp 02:31:07 -!- Tullius [~alemnaru@205.185.218.248] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 02:31:28 chameco [~samuel@186.sub-70-215-16.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 02:33:17 Tullius [~alemnaru@205.185.218.248] has joined #lisp 02:33:32 -!- Tullius [~alemnaru@205.185.218.248] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 02:34:08 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-185-82-146.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:34:20 Tullius [~alemnaru@205.185.218.248] has joined #lisp 02:34:33 -!- Tullius [~alemnaru@205.185.218.248] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 02:36:20 Tullius [~alemnaru@205.185.218.248] has joined #lisp 02:36:34 -!- Tullius [~alemnaru@205.185.218.248] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 02:37:06 Tullius [~alemnaru@205.185.218.248] has joined #lisp 02:37:21 -!- Tullius [~alemnaru@205.185.218.248] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 02:37:56 -!- Dalek_Baldwin [~Adium@108-225-26-178.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:38:06 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 02:38:34 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-96-240-138-223.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 02:39:16 Tullius [~alemnaru@205.185.218.248] has joined #lisp 02:39:30 -!- hpd [~hpd@static.6.236.40.188.clients.your-server.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:39:30 -!- Tullius [~alemnaru@205.185.218.248] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 02:40:33 derrida: yes, it's what's you're supposed to do around such foreign calls. C programs assume FP traps don't happen. SBCL transforms them into condition by default. 02:41:01 -!- sellout [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:41:01 Tullius [~alemnaru@205.185.218.248] has joined #lisp 02:41:15 -!- Tullius [~alemnaru@205.185.218.248] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 02:42:06 Tullius [~alemnaru@205.185.218.248] has joined #lisp 02:42:19 -!- Tullius [~alemnaru@205.185.218.248] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 02:43:50 Tullius [~alemnaru@205.185.218.248] has joined #lisp 02:44:06 -!- Tullius [~alemnaru@205.185.218.248] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 02:45:26 Tullius [~alemnaru@205.185.218.248] has joined #lisp 02:45:29 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@91-157-48-10.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:45:41 -!- Tullius [~alemnaru@205.185.218.248] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 02:47:00 sellout- [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:47:47 Tullius [~alemnaru@205.185.218.248] has joined #lisp 02:48:01 -!- Tullius [~alemnaru@205.185.218.248] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 02:48:38 *Fare* tries his asdf with everything in with-upgradability () 02:48:47 Tullius [~alemnaru@205.185.218.248] has joined #lisp 02:48:49 passes tests... but does it pass upgrade tests? 02:49:01 -!- Tullius [~alemnaru@205.185.218.248] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 02:49:20 also works on clisp, good sign. 02:49:46 Tullius [~alemnaru@205.185.218.248] has joined #lisp 02:49:53 -!- ikki [~ikki@187.208.215.144] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 02:50:02 -!- Tullius [~alemnaru@205.185.218.248] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 02:50:51 Tullius [~alemnaru@205.185.218.248] has joined #lisp 02:51:05 -!- Tullius [~alemnaru@205.185.218.248] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 02:51:49 hpd [~hpd@static.6.236.40.188.clients.your-server.de] has joined #lisp 02:51:50 -!- natechan [~natechan@c-71-56-124-186.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]] 02:52:32 Dalek_Baldwin1 [~Adium@71-84-34-33.dhcp.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has joined #lisp 02:53:10 Tullius [~alemnaru@205.185.218.248] has joined #lisp 02:53:25 -!- Tullius [~alemnaru@205.185.218.248] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 02:54:16 Tullius [~alemnaru@205.185.218.248] has joined #lisp 02:54:29 -!- Tullius [~alemnaru@205.185.218.248] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 02:56:21 Tullius [~alemnaru@205.185.218.248] has joined #lisp 02:56:35 -!- Tullius [~alemnaru@205.185.218.248] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 02:57:09 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:57:38 Tullius [~alemnaru@205.185.218.248] has joined #lisp 02:57:51 -!- Tullius [~alemnaru@205.185.218.248] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 02:59:58 Tullius [~alemnaru@205.185.218.248] has joined #lisp 03:00:12 -!- Tullius [~alemnaru@205.185.218.248] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 03:01:30 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@120.154.21.58] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 03:02:17 Tullius [~alemnaru@205.185.218.248] has 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[~samuel@186.sub-70-215-16.myvzw.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 03:07:14 Tullius [~alemnaru@205.185.218.248] has joined #lisp 03:07:27 -!- Tullius [~alemnaru@205.185.218.248] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 03:08:39 Tullius [~alemnaru@205.185.218.248] has joined #lisp 03:08:53 -!- Tullius [~alemnaru@205.185.218.248] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 03:10:14 Tullius [~alemnaru@205.185.218.248] has joined #lisp 03:10:28 -!- Tullius [~alemnaru@205.185.218.248] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 03:10:58 -!- madnificent [~madnifice@static.146.73.9.176.clients.your-server.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:11:13 -!- k0001 [~k0001@host28.186-109-176.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:11:46 madnificent [~madnifice@static.146.73.9.176.clients.your-server.de] has joined #lisp 03:12:08 Tullius [~alemnaru@205.185.218.248] has joined #lisp 03:12:24 -!- Tullius [~alemnaru@205.185.218.248] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 03:12:57 k0001 [~k0001@host91.190-138-104.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 03:14:13 Tullius [~alemnaru@205.185.218.248] has joined #lisp 03:14:28 -!- Tullius [~alemnaru@205.185.218.248] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 03:16:38 Tullius [~alemnaru@205.185.218.248] has joined #lisp 03:16:51 -!- Tullius [~alemnaru@205.185.218.248] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 03:17:54 Tullius [~alemnaru@205.185.218.248] has joined #lisp 03:18:09 -!- Tullius [~alemnaru@205.185.218.248] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 03:19:48 Tullius [~alemnaru@205.185.218.248] has joined #lisp 03:20:03 -!- Tullius [~alemnaru@205.185.218.248] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 03:21:28 Tullius [~alemnaru@205.185.218.248] has joined #lisp 03:21:43 -!- Tullius [~alemnaru@205.185.218.248] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 03:21:52 oh... what do you think about the homesteading of package :D ? 03:22:53 cfy [~ilisp@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 03:23:19 Tullius [~alemnaru@205.185.218.248] has joined #lisp 03:23:32 -!- Tullius [~alemnaru@205.185.218.248] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 03:23:33 samebchase [~samuel@codesurfers.net] has joined #lisp 03:24:19 Tullius [~alemnaru@205.185.218.248] has joined #lisp 03:24:32 -!- Tullius [~alemnaru@205.185.218.248] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 03:25:49 Tullius [~alemnaru@205.185.218.248] has joined #lisp 03:26:02 -!- Tullius [~alemnaru@205.185.218.248] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 03:27:38 Tullius [~alemnaru@205.185.218.248] has joined #lisp 03:27:51 -!- Tullius [~alemnaru@205.185.218.248] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 03:28:30 ubii_ [~ubii@184.21.196.19] has joined #lisp 03:28:53 -!- ubii [~ubii@unaffiliated/ubii] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:29:21 -!- ISF is now known as sergiodj_ 03:29:29 -!- sergiodj_ is now known as ISF 03:30:03 Tullius [~alemnaru@205.185.218.248] has joined #lisp 03:30:17 -!- Tullius [~alemnaru@205.185.218.248] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 03:31:03 Tullius [~alemnaru@205.185.218.248] has joined #lisp 03:31:06 DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@CPE-144-137-72-58.lnse5.cht.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 03:31:17 -!- Tullius [~alemnaru@205.185.218.248] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 03:32:03 Tullius [~alemnaru@205.185.218.248] has joined #lisp 03:32:16 -!- Tullius [~alemnaru@205.185.218.248] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 03:32:36 OK, pushed 2.28.1 03:32:47 -!- cataska [~user@210.64.6.233] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 03:33:43 Tullius [~alemnaru@205.185.218.248] has joined #lisp 03:33:56 -!- Tullius [~alemnaru@205.185.218.248] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 03:34:54 I appreciate comments on https://bugs.launchpad.net/asdf/+bug/1116213 regarding what to do about :D package nickname. 03:35:26 Sleepy_neko [~Sleepy.Ne@113.190.241.163] has joined #lisp 03:35:50 Tullius [~alemnaru@205.185.218.248] has joined #lisp 03:36:04 -!- Tullius [~alemnaru@205.185.218.248] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 03:36:58 pkhuong: I see, thank you. 03:37:04 Tullius [~alemnaru@205.185.218.248] has joined #lisp 03:37:18 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[~alemnaru@205.185.218.248] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 03:57:12 -!- sellout- [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:58:19 Tullius [~alemnaru@205.185.218.248] has joined #lisp 03:58:20 -!- [SLB] is now known as [SLB]` 03:58:33 -!- Tullius [~alemnaru@205.185.218.248] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 03:59:25 Tullius [~alemnaru@205.185.218.248] has joined #lisp 03:59:28 -!- Tullius [~alemnaru@205.185.218.248] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 04:10:31 sellout- [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:11:53 segmond__ [~segmond@adsl-108-73-161-249.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:15:11 -!- rmathews [~roshan@122.164.134.125] has quit [Quit: ...] 04:15:41 -!- segmond_ [~segmond@adsl-108-73-167-235.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:15:55 kmels__ [~kmels@frbg-5d84efe4.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 04:16:04 -!- two- [~1@c-67-171-131-23.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 04:17:52 worstadmin [~worst@174.141.213.3] has joined #lisp 04:19:04 -!- pierre1 [~pierre1@186.205.212.50] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:30:01 linse [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1177917310.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 04:42:25 peterhil [~peterhil@91-157-48-10.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 04:47:37 k0001_ [~k0001@host225.190-138-104.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 04:47:51 -!- zejedi [~zejedi@108.222.222.199] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:50:51 -!- k0001 [~k0001@host91.190-138-104.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:51:03 -!- Jubb [~ghost@pool-108-28-62-61.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:52:27 rmathews [~roshan@122.165.89.11] has joined #lisp 04:52:44 -!- ebobby [~fms@189.170.16.14] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 04:56:28 -!- worstadmin [~worst@174.141.213.3] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 05:00:14 _Mon_Ouie_ [~Mon_Ouie@172.128-244-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 05:01:15 -!- 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[~anonymous@bas3-montreal42-1242354060.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: francisl] 05:20:08 -!- [SLB]` [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:21:28 Sleepy_neko [~Sleepy.Ne@113.190.241.163] has joined #lisp 05:23:06 qNemo [~qN@89.207.216.208] has joined #lisp 05:23:20 -!- qptain_Nemo [~qN@89.207.216.208] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 05:23:22 joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@086.112-30-64.ftth.swbr.surewest.net] has joined #lisp 05:25:16 fsvehla [~fsvehla@h081217181184.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 05:27:02 -!- bananagram [~bot@c-98-198-236-112.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 05:34:39 worstadmin [~worst@174.141.213.4] has joined #lisp 05:35:03 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@92.46.5.85] has joined #lisp 05:35:03 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@92.46.5.85] has quit [Changing host] 05:35:03 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 05:37:53 -!- Sleepy_neko [~Sleepy.Ne@113.190.241.163] has quit [] 05:40:49 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 05:40:59 replcated [~user@24-217-97-210.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 05:41:51 -!- DataLinkD2 [~DataLinkD@CPE-144-137-72-58.lnse5.cht.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Quit: Bye] 05:42:39 Can anyone recommend a GUI library that works half-way decently on Windows? 05:42:40 replcated, memo from ogamita: the last edition of the dragon book includes chapters about garbage collection and dynamic languages. So it's more lisp related than the first edition. 05:44:05 -!- dnolen [~user@cpe-74-64-61-245.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:47:14 Guthur [~user@eth2845.sa.adsl.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 05:48:25 -!- Guthur [~user@eth2845.sa.adsl.internode.on.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:51:52 -!- Demosthenex [~Demosthen@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit [Quit: leaving] 05:53:23 Demosthenex [~Demosthen@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 05:55:18 agumonkey [~agu@138.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 05:58:42 angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has joined #lisp 05:58:52 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:58:57 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:59:06 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 05:59:27 rparker [~user@24-217-97-210.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 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08:10:09 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@unaffiliated/euthydemus] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:10:12 -!- worstadmin [~worst@174.141.213.7] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:10:26 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@unaffiliated/euthydemus] has joined #lisp 08:10:36 worstadmin [~worst@174.141.213.4] has joined #lisp 08:12:05 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-185-82-146.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:14:13 NeedMoreDesu [~user@109.122.2.79] has joined #lisp 08:14:44 Can I have declarative-style programming(like in Prolog) in any of lisps? 08:14:58 What libs can I use for it? 08:16:30 http://www.cliki.net/Prolog 08:16:38 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 08:17:07 oh, thanks 08:17:10 lemonodor_ [~jwiseman@mobile-166-137-177-014.mycingular.net] has joined #lisp 08:17:36 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 08:19:28 -!- lemonodor 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However, it's about the only case where I usually leave the closing parenthesis with a ;;eval-when comment on a separate line, if there are several defining forms inside it. 11:00:48 Remembered. I'll tell Fare when he/she/it next speaks. 11:04:12 -!- rbarraud__ [~rbarraud@202-169-221-121.worldnet.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:04:15 -!- akovalen` is now known as akovalenko 11:04:37 -!- b1rkh0ff [~b1rkh0ff@178.77.7.143] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:05:43 b1rkh0ff [~b1rkh0ff@178.77.7.143] has joined #lisp 11:05:51 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-90.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:05:57 -!- b1rkh0ff [~b1rkh0ff@178.77.7.143] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:08:14 -!- DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:08:54 -!- yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.169] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:09:26 n1x [~n1x@unaffiliated/n1xnc0d3] has joined #lisp 11:10:05 leoncamel [~leoncamel@124.126.161.84] has joined #lisp 11:10:48 -!- dous [~dous@unaffiliated/dous] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 11:12:31 DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has joined #lisp 11:14:01 Asgeir [~asgeir@sal63-1-82-243-96-129.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 11:15:20 -!- leoncamel [~leoncamel@124.126.161.84] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:16:33 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-141-100-35.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:20:48 zorkmoid [c2ed8e11@gateway/web/freenode/ip.194.237.142.17] has joined #lisp 11:20:52 hmph 11:23:00 kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-197-210.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 11:23:44 dous [~dous@cm23.sigma71.maxonline.com.sg] has joined #lisp 11:23:44 -!- dous [~dous@cm23.sigma71.maxonline.com.sg] has quit [Changing host] 11:23:44 dous [~dous@unaffiliated/dous] has joined #lisp 11:23:55 setmeaway2 [stemearay@118.45.149.239] has joined #lisp 11:24:42 10˛mph ? 11:24:50 hehe 11:24:58 neufeld` [~user@69-165-173-139.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 11:25:24 -!- rob7n8h23 [~rob7n8h23@c-67-182-147-102.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:26:13 -!- findiggle1 [~kirkwood@173-10-106-172-BusName-Washington.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 11:26:43 rob7n8h23 [~rob7n8h23@c-67-182-147-102.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:27:12 -!- setmeaway [setmeaway3@118.45.149.239] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:27:16 findiggle [~kirkwood@173-10-106-172-BusName-Washington.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 11:27:23 -!- neufeld [~user@69-165-173-139.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 11:28:38 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-90.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 11:28:49 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-90.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:33:36 Fare [~fare@146.94.106.109.dynamic.sat.abo.nordnet.fr] has joined #lisp 11:37:02 rmathews [~roshan@122.165.89.11] has joined #lisp 11:43:47 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:48:34 yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.169] has joined #lisp 11:49:58 mcsontos_ [~mcsontos@77.240.184.15] has joined #lisp 11:54:08 -!- svetlyak40wt [~svetlyak4@dhcp-218-71-wifi.yandex.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:54:22 ehu [~ehu@31.136.180.23] has joined #lisp 12:00:44 -!- rmathews [~roshan@122.165.89.11] has quit [Quit: ...] 12:01:15 -!- eli [~eli@racket/eli] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:01:24 -!- gabot [~eli@racket/bot/gabot] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:03:32 -!- przl [~przlrkt@46.231.183.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:04:16 svetlyak40wt [~svetlyak4@2a02:6b8:0:40c:add2:388f:dcb0:3a59] has joined #lisp 12:07:36 Yuuhi [benni@p54839A1A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:07:43 cfy` [~ilisp@115.195.181.199] has joined #lisp 12:08:37 add^_ [~add^_@m37-2-173-35.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 12:10:50 -!- Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.0] 12:11:54 gabot [~eli@racket/bot/gabot] has joined #lisp 12:12:04 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-178-244.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:15:10 tfb [~tfb@restormel.cley.com] has joined #lisp 12:17:00 -!- gabot [~eli@racket/bot/gabot] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:18:11 qptain_Nemo [~qN@89.207.216.208] has joined #lisp 12:18:35 -!- qNemo [~qN@89.207.216.208] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:19:17 gabot [~eli@racket/bot/gabot] has joined #lisp 12:20:51 -!- reckler [~reckler@ppp118-208-149-39.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:20:53 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-90.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 12:21:38 Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 12:26:23 Joreji [~thomas@87-188.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 12:26:28 -!- svetlyak40wt [~svetlyak4@2a02:6b8:0:40c:add2:388f:dcb0:3a59] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:28:04 Joreji_ [~thomas@87-188.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 12:29:45 rmathews [~roshan@122.164.146.168] has joined #lisp 12:30:09 przl [~przlrkt@46.231.183.162] has joined #lisp 12:34:25 everyone busy hacking huh? 12:36:40 zorkmoid: It's still relatively early in the States. Not sure how many #lisp'ers are still sleeping. :-P 12:36:49 -!- yvdriess [~Beef@soft85.vub.ac.be] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:37:06 i didn't know that lispers where americans, most if not all lispers i know are in europe. 12:37:24 any comments on short package nicknames? https://bugs.launchpad.net/asdf/+bug/1116213 12:37:24 Fare, memo from ogamita: Indeed eval-when gets indented as usual. However, it's about the only case where I usually leave the closing parenthesis with a ;;eval-when comment on a separate line, if there are several defining forms inside it. 12:37:42 -!- nialo [~nialo@ool-18bbb124.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:38:02 -!- Joreji [~thomas@87-188.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 12:38:08 -!- Joreji_ [~thomas@87-188.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 12:38:18 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@unaffiliated/euthydemus] has quit [Quit: leaving] 12:38:37 zorkmoid: between 12:00 and 14:00 people are eating north of Pyreneans. 12:38:58 strange people ... 12:39:33 ogamita: by the way, thank you for the link to gcl, there is somsone who wrote a dpans converter as well, dpans2texi.. 12:39:36 Fare: I'd avoid single-letter package name. It's not justified for libraries. 12:40:07 zorkmoid: I hope gcl authors asked permission to make an info format version, and to distribute it. It's not obvious it's legal. 12:41:13 I hope they didn't. Copyright is evil. 12:41:17 Joreji [~thomas@87-188.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 12:41:23 Fare: very short package names are useful only at the REPL. In source file shortish package names should be prefered if long package names are not acceptable. 12:41:33 -!- przl [~przlrkt@46.231.183.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:41:48 -!- cfy` [~ilisp@115.195.181.199] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:42:13 Fare: I think package names shorter than 6 letters should be avoided for publicly released packages. 12:42:58 Fare: there is almost no information in names shorter than that and probility for clashes rises fast 12:43:06 -!- n1x [~n1x@unaffiliated/n1xnc0d3] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 12:43:40 spacefrogg, have you looked at lil? 12:43:49 I use pure: stateful: classy: and posh: 12:44:25 zorkmoid: Why wouldn't there be American Lispers? Hell, the damn family of Languages started there. :-P 12:44:49 Fare: yeah, had a look at it and liked it very much. Your example is in my favour because your package names are much to general to be only suitable for lil 12:45:16 what should lil use, then? 12:45:26 short package names are useful, for debugging .. 12:45:42 lil-pure: ... i gues 12:45:50 guess* 12:46:07 svetlyak40wt [~svetlyak4@dhcp175-196-red3.yandex.net] has joined #lisp 12:46:17 meh 12:47:23 Fare: I think you can imagine that I can come up with a totally different library for which pure:, stateful: and such, also are perfectly sound. How to resolve such conflicts? 12:47:47 spacefrogg, first claimant wins 12:47:55 -!- fsvehla [~fsvehla@h081217181184.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Quit: fsvehla] 12:47:55 a scarce resource is made to be used 12:48:17 that's nonsensical and a total blocker in the end 12:48:26 otherwise, you only make it scarcer, and no one benefits at all 12:48:44 "air is scarce, let's kill anyone who breathes!" 12:48:52 cui bono? 12:49:15 blocking *what*? blocking the other guy who also shouldn't be using it? 12:49:19 ogamita: from the looks, gcl is based on kcl/akcl, so maybe they got permisions from those times.. 12:49:21 [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has joined #lisp 12:49:26 have a sound library design and you seldomly need to directly reference the package containing a symbol 12:49:46 -!- yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.169] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:50:02 Fare: blocking invention because of "not allowing" people to re-use the namespace 12:50:15 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.66] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.2.92.1] 12:50:51 ogamita: ah, no, interesting, he converted dpans2 into texi... 12:51:09 Fare: True. Really in the technological space, is this actually often considered a "good thing". 12:51:29 if you apply too strict rules on package-naming nobody will adhere to them. applying too loose rules and you open a fight about resources and nobody will agree on reasonable terms either 12:52:05 "first come, first served" is not too bad a rule 12:52:08 Fare: I also use one letter nicknames for my private packages 12:52:11 Fare: it is 12:52:13 also "you don't maintain it, you lose it" 12:52:25 Fare: that seems like a very silly way of arguing.. 12:52:31 or "you don't publish it, it doesn't count" 12:52:35 -!- Joreji [~thomas@87-188.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:52:57 zorkmoid, that's how conflicts are solved in the real world, re: land, etc. 12:53:01 Fare: sure it does. 12:53:32 Fare: but is it how conflicts should be solved? 12:56:04 Fare: I might buy your claim the resource & publish argument for short names, but for single letter names I view it more like the symbol-functions of keywords... a private thing, rude for external code to claim 12:57:38 i kinda find this whole discussion quite .. harsh, claiming that code that is heavily used, and not published is "not counted" is ... mind bogling. 12:58:09 yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.169] has joined #lisp 12:58:29 why bother resolving conflicts, D is jut a stupid name, conflicts or not 13:00:01 -!- Fare [~fare@146.94.106.109.dynamic.sat.abo.nordnet.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:00:40 Fare: "first come, first served" can't be used: we could be checking in two different libraries at the same time, one in github the other in gitorious, and a third in common-lisp.net 13:00:59 Defluo [~Defluo@gateway/tor-sasl/defluo] has joined #lisp 13:02:02 -!- nostoi [~nostoi@78.Red-79-156-245.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Seite geschlossen] 13:02:41 Urfin [~user@213.57.184.226] has joined #lisp 13:03:19 for packages... there's always renaming and conduits, and possibly even modified readers that could implement ZetaLisp extensions for packages to fix that 13:04:41 pjb- [~pjb-@host.34.193.23.62.rev.coltfrance.com] has joined #lisp 13:05:05 Kvaks_ [~kvaks@90.168.189.109.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 13:07:10 -!- Kvaks [~kvaks@90.168.189.109.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 13:07:18 -!- Kvaks_ [~kvaks@90.168.189.109.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Client Quit] 13:07:35 worstadmin [~worst@174.141.213.23] has joined #lisp 13:08:30 -!- youlysses [~user@75-132-17-145.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:09:26 youlysses [~user@75-132-17-145.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 13:11:10 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 13:13:45 p_l: right. There's basically been no reason not to use FQDNs for packages with package-local nicknames for about ten years, except no-one cares enough. 13:13:50 tcr [~tcr@77-56-40-229.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 13:14:11 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@77-56-40-229.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 13:15:09 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 13:16:44 mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-96-240-138-223.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:17:33 ahungry [~null@99-40-10-216.lightspeed.livnmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 13:17:51 I think till recently we didn't really have the problem, now the rate of "system discovery" is much faster 13:18:09 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-185-82-146.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:20:30 these days I often just run (mapcar #'ql-dist:ensure-installed (ql-dist:provided-systems (car (ql-dist:all-dists)))) and read the unpacked sources 13:22:33 *tfb* is sure that somewhere, someone, is blaming Quicklisp for making it harder to ignore these problems 13:24:26 -!- hkBst_ [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 13:24:36 -!- worstadmin [~worst@174.141.213.23] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:24:36 hkBst__ [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has joined #lisp 13:25:30 fsvehla [~fsvehla@chello084112185050.3.11.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 13:27:42 -!- hkBst__ [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has quit [Excess Flood] 13:28:07 hkBst__ [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has joined #lisp 13:29:41 cfy` [~ilisp@115.195.181.199] has joined #lisp 13:34:10 -!- yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.169] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 13:35:15 -!- pjb- [~pjb-@host.34.193.23.62.rev.coltfrance.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:35:42 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-185-82-146.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:36:10 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-185-82-146.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:37:33 ha ha ha 13:39:13 segv- [~mb@dslb-094-223-001-069.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 13:39:33 Kvaks [~kvaks@90.168.189.109.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 13:39:40 stil quite against the idea of fqdns as package names .. 13:39:49 yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.169] has joined #lisp 13:40:27 I'd be fine with "big enough names and no too-common nicknames by default" 13:41:07 i think you might just as well use UUIDs or something .. 13:41:31 sambio [~sambio@190.57.227.109] has joined #lisp 13:41:35 but fqdns are easier to remember while having equals name-clashing properties 13:41:48 s/equals/similar/ 13:42:54 what if you change dn's at some point .. 13:43:03 or maintainers change of a package .. do you change fqdn? 13:43:42 what if i take p_l's package FOO which is com.foo.p_l.bar, rewrite it for something ... what should it be called, should it be renamed .. 13:44:16 -!- youlysses [~user@75-132-17-145.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:44:39 zorkmoid: if you work in consent with p_l you leave the name, otherwise you fork the library and re-name it 13:45:02 spacefrogg: seems strange 13:45:07 -!- Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:45:09 and then you have package hell. 13:45:29 or p_l doesn't like smoe fix that i need .. 13:45:31 zorkmoid: that is common behaviour in open source development 13:45:33 or something, do i rename it then.. 13:45:48 "this depends on p_l's version of zorkmoids fork" 13:46:02 -!- cfy` [~ilisp@115.195.181.199] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:46:08 strive for a consent. if that is not achievable make a new project 13:46:20 spacefrogg: seems silly to me honestly.. 13:46:48 impersonating p_l's library without his permission is less silly then? 13:46:54 hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has joined #lisp 13:46:54 -!- hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has quit [Changing host] 13:46:54 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 13:47:02 heck, my peristant database thing is still called statice, which is based on symbolics statice .. 13:47:06 should irename it? 13:47:21 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-185-82-146.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:47:26 -!- hkBst__ [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:47:28 spacefrogg: how am i impersonating a library? it is a package name, that is all... 13:47:34 before releasing it to the public? of course. it's not 1990 anymore 13:48:12 i don't see how it not being 1990 is related to releasing anything 13:48:43 chebastian [~chebastia@c-d875e255.015-51-7673741.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 13:48:49 i've been programming lisp for 30 plus years, none of my code afaik is out in the publics eye, and i get paid to write lisp. 13:48:54 zorkmoid: today you have to deal with hundreds (thousands) of people independently releasing code and making changes to already released code 13:49:21 zorkmoid: you have to distinguish somehow that people know what you are depending on and what you are talking about 13:49:44 spacefrogg: you need to know that no matter how many people are releasing code. 13:50:08 zorkmoid: I'd provide an "unique" name, and a single-file system that would use conduits to create "abstract" packages for compatibility if needed 13:50:09 zorkmoid: your original code need not compatible to my alterations so we have to distinguish our package names even if they come from the same root 13:51:08 sometimes i think people don't write enough code, and argue about that people write to much code so that they don't have to write code ... .. 13:51:16 back to hacking! 13:51:29 got some cool visualisations of dna to do .. 13:51:38 we got it, you're cool 13:56:40 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 13:56:53 hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has joined #lisp 13:56:53 -!- hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has quit [Changing host] 13:56:53 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 13:57:55 leoncamel [~leoncamel@124.126.161.84] has joined #lisp 13:59:00 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.214] has joined #lisp 14:00:13 minion: How do I leave a memo? 14:00:18 does torturing a poor bot with things beyond its comprehension please you? 14:00:28 minion: help memos 14:00:28 To send a memo, say something like ``minion: memo for nick: the memo''. I'll remember the memo for any nick which is the same as the given nick, +/- differences in punctuation, and any nick which is an alias for it, and give it to them when they next speak. 14:00:50 leoc [~leoc.git@p5DDB9F53.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:01:03 stassats: Thanks but isn't minion supposed to be an AI? :) 14:01:12 no 14:01:15 :( 14:03:33 -!- yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.169] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:10:21 minion: memo for Fare: https://github.com/3b/package-local-nicknames/blob/master/docs.org#package-local-nicknames-only I think it's worth using this feature in all libraries/implementations having package-local-nicknames and even some that don't. 14:10:21 Remembered. I'll tell Fare when he/she/it next speaks. 14:11:14 sbcl has package-local-nicknames now 14:12:26 jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@188.250.3.235] has joined #lisp 14:13:22 Yes, but it has no way to handle clashing global nicknames. #-package-local-nicknames-only(:nicknames ...) is better than nothing. 14:13:55 Actually, it won't help either in cases where it becomes a problem. 14:14:21 e.g. two libraries using different json parsers with the same nickname. And both use the nickname. 14:15:59 cfy` [~ilisp@115.195.181.199] has joined #lisp 14:16:08 Straylight [~user@vpn.expressionanalysis.com] has joined #lisp 14:16:17 -!- replcated` [~user@24-217-97-210.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Quit: Heading to work.] 14:16:20 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-90.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 14:25:15 linse [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1177917310.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 14:25:51 -!- otwieracz [~gonet9@v6.gen2.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:27:49 answer_42 [~answer_42@gateway/tor-sasl/answer42/x-66983568] has joined #lisp 14:27:58 https://github.com/sykopomp/package-local-nicknames <-- (Xposted to openmcl-devel) 14:28:41 2013 is the year of local nicknames 14:28:57 and the linux desktop 14:29:12 sykopomp: every year is that year 14:29:38 2013 will be it for real 14:29:46 -!- zorkmoid [c2ed8e11@gateway/web/freenode/ip.194.237.142.17] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 14:29:55 Fare [~fare@146.94.106.109.dynamic.sat.abo.nordnet.fr] has joined #lisp 14:30:26 how about the century of linux on the desktop? 14:31:35 when was the next Lisp scheduled, 2058? 14:31:38 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@92.46.5.85] has joined #lisp 14:31:38 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@92.46.5.85] has quit [Changing host] 14:31:38 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 14:31:41 stassats: The past century was the century of linux desktop but this particular year is going to be... The Linux Gaming Year. 14:31:55 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:32:26 otwieracz [~gonet9@v6.gen2.org] has joined #lisp 14:32:27 We have *seven* package-local nicknames implementations :D 14:33:10 The likewise named lib, three mentioned on its page, SBCL's one, advanced-readtables and def-symbol-readmacro. 14:33:22 *advanced-readtable 14:33:52 naryl: fwiw, Valve already made it the linux gaming year ;) 14:34:51 normanrichards [~normanric@63.98.50.138] has joined #lisp 14:35:46 p_l: Valve was barely on time to hop on the train after Desura and HIB :) Valve's only advantage is their own games ATM. 14:35:58 But let's stop it until stassats gets angry for the offtopic :) 14:36:19 hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has joined #lisp 14:36:19 -!- hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has quit [Changing host] 14:36:19 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 14:36:48 -!- theos is now known as Guest4070 14:37:19 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 14:38:35 maybe soon we can have a trivial-package-local-nicknames package 14:38:52 will it have a nickname? 14:39:48 stopbit [~stopbit@static-108-48-124-82.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:39:55 -!- Guest4070 [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:40:25 victor_lowther [~victorlow@143.166.116.80] has joined #lisp 14:44:17 having local nicknames is the first step. The next step is getting everyone to namespace their libraries 14:44:35 the Java way ? 14:44:59 the java way is only hideous because it wants matching directory trees 14:45:22 some way, in any case 14:45:28 sykopomp: are you the person who wrote the SBCL package-local-nicknames stuff? 14:45:29 that's a tall order, i can't even find suitable names for my libraries 14:45:40 -!- hydan [~user@ip-89-102-13-27.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:45:48 The .NET way: company.product.package. 14:45:51 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-190-149.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:45:53 (:local-nicknames (:com.ediweitz.cl-ppcre :re)) 14:45:54 tfb: no, that was 3b 14:46:13 sykopomp: The SBCL one. 14:46:15 tfb: err, 3b wrote the sbcl library proof-of-concept, nikodemus wrote the real version (I don't know if he based his work on 3b's) 14:46:20 dlowe: that's not true, the reverse domain name and directory organization are orthogonal 14:46:25 naryl: there's two "sbcl ones" 14:46:26 -!- joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@086.112-30-64.ftth.swbr.surewest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 14:46:29 zorkmoid [c2ed8e11@gateway/web/freenode/ip.194.237.142.17] has joined #lisp 14:46:30 oh no 14:46:35 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-190-149.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:46:37 The bundled one :) 14:46:38 re 14:46:53 and here was me thinking I could try and agree an interface with the SBCL people 14:47:04 fe[nl]ix: I'm aware. I still have to step in five-deep nested directories to get to any code in most java projects 14:47:13 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-190-149.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:47:16 probably asking on the mailing list is the right thing there I guess 14:47:16 tfb: there's only one in SBCL 14:47:31 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 14:47:33 stassats: well ther is one, and mine 14:47:45 yours is not in the upstream 14:48:03 but if anyone has a superior naming convention, now's the time to decide on it 14:48:13 mm... has anyone used heroku? 14:48:31 stassats: no I know, what I meant was I wanted to agree an interface between all the interfaces 14:48:40 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 14:48:46 what if i don't have a company and don't want to use my name as a substitute? 14:48:46 including mine which is at least nominally x platform 14:48:55 especially for a community project 14:48:59 hkBst_ [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 14:49:09 stassats: you could get a domain 14:49:11 stassats: a domain is about 10p 14:49:19 it's more than 0 14:49:31 stassats: or you could run a top-level name registry for lisp package names 14:49:44 pjb- [~pjb-@host.34.193.23.62.rev.coltfrance.com] has joined #lisp 14:49:56 H4ns: right: org.lisp. 14:50:03 or what have you 14:50:04 in practice, a lot of package names will stay as they are, so there is not much to worry about. 14:50:25 it would be nice if proposals for package name infrastructure wouldn't just be code, but also a proposal on how to use them, even better as a howto. 14:51:12 prxq: first there needs to be code, then there need to be experience, and from experience come the howtos 14:51:29 -!- bitonic [~user@5ad2b911.bb.sky.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:51:29 prxq: I think there has been no agreement, or at least there was not last time I was involved when people just sneered at using domain-structured names with short per-package nicknames 14:52:00 tfb: because making the short names into global nicknames did not solve the problem. 14:52:19 I am not suggesting global nicknames 14:52:27 per-package is not global 14:52:33 no, but you were talking about the past. 14:52:35 local nicknames or nicknames based on the current package's name could solve things 14:53:11 imo, what java does in sense of packages isn't all that bad 14:53:33 stassats: Anyway both .NET and Java ways have cruft so you won't want to use them without some local nicknames facility. 14:53:43 H4ns: yes, about suggestions I made in the past to use per-package nicknames, was my point (which have existed in the "is an implementation" sense for a long time for anyone who wanted them) 14:54:10 i'd rather like to have a name registry, so that people can choose nice and catchy names without interference, x.stassats.com wouldn't make it better to distinguish mentally from x.tfb.com 14:54:43 you mean com.tfb.x, but I'm just fine with that 14:55:02 because there is a name registry, which is called DNS 14:55:43 -!- linse [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1177917310.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: zzzz] 14:56:01 it's easy to see the author, but the purpose of names is to distinguish the subject 14:56:04 if best practice would be to have package names be /, then it'd be easy to distinguish a name in the global lisp namesspace (dotless or slashless) from a structured name. 14:56:14 nan_ [~user@178.233.216.230] has joined #lisp 14:56:20 having domains for each project isn't a great perspective 14:56:42 the names under the domain you own are your own to choose 14:57:13 my packages are all org.tfeb.*, my company's are all com.cley.* and so on. 14:57:33 tfb: Did you see advanced-readtable? It takes a different approach to local nicknames. It has package hierarchy. A nickname then becomes a subpackage pointing at another package. 14:57:39 stassats: what would be a good perspective? 14:57:42 they won't clash, that's for sure, but not make to remember either for human beings 14:57:45 The implementation is a dirty hack in portable ANSI CL though. 14:57:56 naryl: but it is portable? 14:57:58 H4ns: "i'd rather like to have a name registry, so that people can choose nice and catchy names without interference" 14:58:14 i don't have a domain, because i can't come up with a satisfying name for it... 14:58:38 i don't have one because i don't need it 14:58:41 madnificent: It doesn't use implementation internal packages. I only tested on sbcl. 14:58:48 jdz: then you must not be allowed to publish libraries. because that is very fair! 14:59:12 OK, I can see this is doomed: these are just the kind of things people said n years ago 14:59:19 naryl: so it 'should' be portable, but implementatins may have bugs. correct? 14:59:24 yes 14:59:31 tfb: did you expect something to change? 14:59:37 -!- pjb- [~pjb-@host.34.193.23.62.rev.coltfrance.com] has quit [Quit: from my iPad] 14:59:37 tfb: but i'm serious 14:59:43 naryl: nice. i should take a look then :) 14:59:44 no, this is why I gave up 15:00:05 and why I'll give up again 15:00:05 ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.186] has joined #lisp 15:00:08 -!- juvi [~jukka@a88-114-62-93.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Quit: juvi] 15:00:08 madnificent: https://github.com/Kalimehtar/advanced-readtable 15:00:12 stassats: (OT) i have finally my live coding environment set up, is insane, thanks for the suggestions. 15:00:38 did i suggest that? 15:00:56 tfb: some time ago there was a discussion about package-local-nicknames. and i believe H4ns(?) suggested to make the system more extensible. that way we could experiment with different approaches. i'd root for that if i were you and see how it works out :) 15:01:16 i think the current way of naming things is alright 15:01:20 stassats: you suggested a few things to break loops and returning slime repl 15:01:35 madnificent: that was actually the half-written document I had: we need a way of hooking name->package lookup which everyone can agree on 15:01:38 nan_: ok, maybe 15:01:45 nan_: at least you like it 15:02:11 just get less of these cl-x names 15:02:11 madnificent: once you have that, you can do anything you like 15:02:59 tfb: advanced-readtable may have much of what you want though. at first glance, that is. 15:03:02 and never ever name a package with an obvious name ("XML", "JSON") 15:03:07 naryl: bookmarked, thanks! 15:03:14 -!- les [moreorles@fsf/member/les] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:03:18 *madnificent* cleverly picked jsown 15:04:00 i made a simple package named inotify, not intended for anyone to use, but then someone used it, and it got into quicklisp, and someone else wrote cl-inotify 15:05:30 francisl [~flavoie@199.84.164.114] has joined #lisp 15:05:34 natechan [~natechan@50-192-61-46-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 15:07:10 -!- Dalek_Baldwin1 [~Adium@71-84-34-33.dhcp.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:07:35 cl-some-name isn't necessarily better than some-name. plus, i liked the name inotify, because i knew what it was. but we do have a bit of a problem with respect to packages and code-sharing. 15:07:45 or at least, a potential problem. 15:08:26 juvi [~jukka@a88-114-62-93.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 15:08:38 -!- juvi [~jukka@a88-114-62-93.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Client Quit] 15:08:57 breakds [~breakds@ppp-70-226-163-93.dsl.mdsnwi.ameritech.net] has joined #lisp 15:09:19 -!- hkBst_ [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:11:00 -!- [SLB] is now known as [SLB]` 15:11:11 I think we have an implicit registry with quicklisp :) 15:11:18 it's just not very structured 15:11:22 ykm [~ykm@124.155.255.250] has joined #lisp 15:11:53 things like inotify could use an author prefix, but large complex applications should have distinguishable names 15:12:08 I'd be cool with / 15:12:17 Fare: ping 15:12:55 should it be weitz/hunchentoot? how many people would have the same name? 15:13:02 author wouldn't necessarily be a domain name 15:13:16 and that hunchentoot is developed by several people 15:13:44 hunchentoot-collective/hunchentoot 15:13:46 hkBst_ [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 15:13:51 -!- svetlyak40wt [~svetlyak4@dhcp175-196-red3.yandex.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:13:56 hunchentoot-gang/hunchentoot? 15:14:38 -!- natechan [~natechan@50-192-61-46-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:15:09 prefixing with authors will just make people use generic names 15:15:18 well, it's nice to have some assurance that libraries won't collide, but not a huge deal in lisp land 15:15:26 hunchentoot-gang/web-server dlowe/web-server 15:15:42 stassats: I was thinking more along the lines of dlowe/utils 15:15:49 "which one is better?" 15:15:59 "which one i used last week?" 15:16:20 n1x [~n1x@unaffiliated/n1xnc0d3] has joined #lisp 15:16:27 you avoid questions like "wtf is hunchentoot?" 15:16:41 wtf is tomcat? 15:16:48 dlowe: /utils /do-one-thing can use authors 15:16:50 wtf is apache? 15:16:52 wtf is nginx? 15:17:04 jdz: I agree. Those would benefit too 15:17:13 jdz: thanks for pointing that out 15:17:13 dlowe: "what was that webserver with a hard to type name" is easy to remember 15:17:17 i disagree 15:17:18 -!- arrdem [~arrdem@dhcp-53-132.ece.utexas.edu] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:17:46 jdz: apache is a helicopter, tomcat is an airplane. must be aeronautical software! 15:18:01 bitonic [~user@5ad2b911.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 15:18:01 the sad reality is that we can only dream of accidental namespace clashes in our little world of libraries 15:18:17 dlowe: you got "tomcat" wrong 15:18:23 jdz: F-14 15:18:26 IIRC 15:18:34 dlowe: we still have to search for a free name! 15:18:41 jdz: Did I? I must have thought really loud. 15:18:44 nope, according to my dictionary it's "A male domestic cat" 15:19:09 and apache is something related to native americans 15:19:24 -!- ehu [~ehu@31.136.180.23] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:19:32 jdz: those are the old names. do the cats need software? i think not. therefore, helicopter! 15:19:49 jdz: a patch is something you get in the mail 15:19:50 -!- tcr [~tcr@77-56-40-229.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:20:09 though I'd like to point out that apache is a foundation that makes the webserver called httpd 15:20:21 so, as we can see, picking nice unique names makes projects memorable. 15:20:26 and httpd is pretty generic 15:20:33 people have something to relate them to 15:21:15 becase the military helicopter server _must_ be better than the kitty something server 15:21:21 tbnl: to be named later, carif: consider a rename in the future 15:21:30 fe[nl]ix, pong 15:21:30 Fare, memo from naryl: https://github.com/3b/package-local-nicknames/blob/master/docs.org#package-local-nicknames-only I think it's worth using this feature in all libraries/implementations having package-local-nicknames and even some that don't. 15:21:40 so, under a proposed naming scheme, it'd just be apache/webserver 15:21:51 sfr: scheduled for rebranding 15:22:04 or hunchentoot/webserver 15:22:04 uyi: use your illusion 15:22:05 Why do I have a feeling we're solving a problem for someone else? 15:22:26 CL has a problem with clashing nicknames, not clashing project names. At least not yet. 15:22:30 -!- [SLB]` is now known as [SLB] 15:22:31 naryl: nobody's solving any problems here 15:22:32 wcabnadn: will choose a better name any day now 15:22:45 yeah, this isn't about project names, just package names 15:23:13 packages wouldn't clash if project names aren't clashing 15:23:25 -!- hkBst_ [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:23:28 But nicknames may. 15:23:54 local-nicknames will solve that 15:23:54 -!- jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@188.250.3.235] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:23:58 Fare: any idea on how to add system aliases, as new feature ? 15:24:13 yeah, we can remove all the nicknames, then 15:24:38 not sure what you mean 15:24:41 but you still don't want two people making a "socket" package 15:24:51 as in nicknames for systems? 15:25:20 so having hunchentoot/socket and usocket/socket seems reasonable 15:25:27 or hunchentoot.socket 15:25:40 right, that's usually what happens now 15:25:50 natechan [~natechan@50-192-61-46-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 15:26:00 and having a convention on how to do it seems reasonable, too 15:26:13 -!- n1x [~n1x@unaffiliated/n1xnc0d3] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 15:26:56 Fare: for backwards compatibility, I want to declare that iolib.sockets is now an alias of iolib/sockets 15:27:00 how about a real lexical scoping system to replace and/or complement packages? 15:27:12 I mean, kluges are one thing, but solutions are better. 15:27:21 and don't cost more to push onto everyone 15:27:47 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:27:48 -!- daimrod [~daimrod@sbrk.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:27:51 fe[nl]ix, how about having an empty system iolib.sockets that just :depends-on (iolib/sockets) ? 15:28:11 fe[nl]ix: Why change . to /? 15:28:16 I mean, how else would asdf find the system if you haven't defsystem'ed your alias yet? 15:28:44 naryl: because asdf3 now has magic to recognize foo/bar as being found in foo.asd 15:28:46 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 15:28:59 attila_lendvai, bonjour 15:29:07 Ok, then I redirect the question to you :) 15:29:16 why doesn't it look for foo.bar in foo.asd? 15:29:17 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f757430.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 15:29:37 Fare: hi! 15:30:06 I'd prefer the dot separator myself. H4ns mentioned using / 15:30:12 naryl, because htat's not backwards-compatible 15:30:19 Because most projects use the dot to separate subpackages. The rest use dash. 15:30:23 Remember: if it's not backwards, it's not compatible. 15:30:31 Fare: ASDF could add a new file class, .asdf-aliases, that quicklisp could recognize somehow and load proactively 15:30:50 fe[nl]ix, more magic :-) 15:31:13 "I accept patches" 15:31:40 svetlyak40wt [~svetlyak4@dhcp-218-71-wifi.yandex.net] has joined #lisp 15:31:55 Fare: It will try to find com.informatimago... packages in com.asd? Ok, makes sense to pick another character then. 15:32:19 wonderful -- LispWorks issues bogus full warnings (not even style-warnings) when I put a deftype in an eval-when, and refuses to discount the warning from being reported by compile-file even if I muffle it! 15:32:42 s/packages/systems/ 15:32:50 I actually don't like the idea of relative package names, so I'm just fine with the current status quo 15:33:15 / was backward compatible in that it would have always failed in ASDF 1 and ASDF 2, so it's OK to give it a meaning in ASDF 3. 15:33:30 daimrod [~daimrod@sbrk.org] has joined #lisp 15:33:41 dlowe: one level relative makes sense 15:33:41 failed to find-system if not already defsystem'ed, but succeeded if previously defsystem'ed 15:33:49 drmeister [~drmeister@wirelessNAT188.wireless.temple.edu] has joined #lisp 15:34:04 so your defsystem forms are backward compatible. 15:34:15 relying on find-system isn't. 15:34:25 it's really nice to have to explicitly say "foo in this code always means qux.bar.foo" 15:35:26 that's what package nicknames are for, right? 15:35:49 jdz: *in this code*. So local nicknames. :) 15:36:01 right 15:36:12 well, local to what? 15:36:18 to the current package 15:36:33 -!- arbscht [~arbscht@fsf/member/arbscht] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:36:46 right 15:38:11 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@wirelessNAT188.wireless.temple.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:39:19 arrdem [~arrdem@dhcp-53-132.ece.utexas.edu] has joined #lisp 15:39:21 advanced-readtable prefers local to the *current file*. 15:39:27 You have to declare aliases in each file. 15:39:56 -!- adelgado [~TomSawyer@c-66-229-185-165.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:41:02 I think having it local to the package is a good middle ground, there. If you want to work that way, you'll probably enjoy using package-per-file 15:41:23 hkBst_ [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 15:42:17 b1rkh0ff [~b1rkh0ff@178.77.4.218] has joined #lisp 15:44:15 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-190-149.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:45:27 tcr [~tcr@84-72-21-32.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 15:46:01 -!- Urfin [~user@213.57.184.226] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:50:39 -!- hkBst_ [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:51:06 hkBst_ [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has joined #lisp 15:51:06 -!- hkBst_ [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has quit [Changing host] 15:51:06 hkBst_ [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 15:51:42 -!- cfy` [~ilisp@115.195.181.199] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:51:59 -!- quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:54:03 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-190-149.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 15:54:43 *Fare* +1 dlowe 15:58:19 *Fare* sends a double bug report to lispworks for not letting muffle-warning usefully squash (i.e. more than non-display, non-causing-failure) a full warning (instead of style-warning) abusively flagged for a deftype in an eval-when. 15:59:18 ah, the joys of CL "portability" 15:59:41 -!- leoncamel [~leoncamel@124.126.161.84] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:59:46 is portability implying absence of bugs? 15:59:50 drmeister [~drmeister@wirelessNAT188.wireless.temple.edu] has joined #lisp 16:00:44 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@wirelessNAT188.wireless.temple.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:00:55 stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-014-219.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 16:01:18 stassats: yes 16:01:52 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:02:17 does that mean there can't be any portability then? 16:02:49 no 16:03:28 but the bugs in implementations are found all the time 16:03:49 -!- leoc [~leoc.git@p5DDB9F53.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:05:13 stassats: sure, but one expects the absence of bugs 16:05:13 -!- [SLB] is now known as [SLB]` 16:05:40 i expect bugs to come pouring at me, as they usually do 16:06:50 lemonodor [~jwiseman@mobile-166-137-177-014.mycingular.net] has joined #lisp 16:07:28 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:08:55 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@92.46.5.85] has joined #lisp 16:08:56 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@92.46.5.85] has quit [Changing host] 16:08:56 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 16:09:26 -!- [SLB]` is now known as [SLB] 16:09:44 -!- doomlord [~doomlod@host86-171-15-248.range86-171.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 16:11:41 -!- hkBst_ [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:13:08 more eval-when's! 16:13:53 *Fare* gets ready to commit and push 2.28.3 after making all this eval-when nonsense work with lispworks. 16:14:18 A programming language is low level when its programs require attention to the irrelevant. — Alan Perlis 16:15:38 -!- lemonodor [~jwiseman@mobile-166-137-177-014.mycingular.net] has quit [Quit: lemonodor] 16:15:51 Urfin [~user@37.142.5.67] has joined #lisp 16:15:58 -!- spacefrogg is now known as spacefrogg^ 16:16:00 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@15.205-67-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 16:16:00 -!- Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@15.205-67-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Changing host] 16:16:00 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 16:16:09 lemonodor [~jwiseman@mobile-166-137-177-014.mycingular.net] has joined #lisp 16:16:39 przl [~przlrkt@46.231.183.162] has joined #lisp 16:17:05 so *all* programming languages are low level, by definition 16:17:16 not to the same point 16:17:23 it's not just black and white 16:17:32 dim: brainfuck is not, it doesn't have any irrelevant parts 16:17:33 your quote is. 16:17:50 stassats: that's a nice trick here :) (it doesn't have any relevant part either) 16:18:08 dim: is not. 16:18:13 dim: but it does 16:18:26 dim: all operators are indispensable 16:18:54 well let's say that brainfuck has nothing directly relevant to any problem I remember having tried to solve with a program those past 20 years 16:19:08 well, of course you can say that SK calculus have even less indispensable parts 16:20:35 or that NAND is all that you need 16:21:31 quantum physics is all you need! 16:21:53 it has too many details, compared to NAND gates 16:23:30 replcated [~user@static-241-143-171-68.axsne.net] has joined #lisp 16:25:45 has anyone studied the problem of making sbcl callable from Matlab? 16:26:24 "it has too many details" == what makes it low-level. 16:26:50 prxq: reminds me about that joke with logicians in a bar... 16:27:07 Fare: but then we'll never have sophisticated, complex thingw 16:27:18 Fare: ok, so how does it go? 16:27:50 flyingyellow [~flying@ckc-110-226.ResHall.Berkeley.EDU] has joined #lisp 16:28:14 smazga [~smazga@li336-165.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 16:29:18 Occam's Razor. 16:30:38 Fare: what is with it? 16:31:16 lmgify 16:31:53 Fare: I know Occam's Razor, I just don't know what your comment was supposed to mean 16:32:41 that sophisticated != complex 16:33:25 adelgado [~TomSawyer@65.23.61.98.nw.nuvox.net] has joined #lisp 16:33:32 or that the point is about unnecessary complexity, not irreducible complexity -- see famous talk from Rich Hickey. 16:33:41 CatMtKing [~CatMtKing@ed-uluka.dyn.ucr.edu] has joined #lisp 16:33:56 we're descending into some philosophical rhetorics 16:34:28 -!- Straylight [~user@vpn.expressionanalysis.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:34:55 or ascending. 16:36:25 descending 16:36:47 who wants to be high anyway? 16:37:43 a lot of drug (ab)usres 16:38:17 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:38:59 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 16:39:51 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-190-149.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:42:05 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-190-149.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:42:55 sdemarre [~serge@109.134.176.104] has joined #lisp 16:45:30 -!- ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.186] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 16:47:10 svs_ [~svs@104-252-AGAVEBB-NM.abq.nm.agavebb.net] has joined #lisp 16:47:30 -!- sdemarre [~serge@109.134.176.104] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:48:08 drmeister [~drmeister@wirelessNAT188.wireless.temple.edu] has joined #lisp 16:49:22 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@wirelessNAT188.wireless.temple.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:50:51 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-tryvkeumrncontsp] has joined #lisp 16:50:53 foreignFunction [~niksaak@94.27.88.9] has joined #lisp 16:50:54 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-tryvkeumrncontsp] has quit [Changing host] 16:50:54 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 16:51:28 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@63.98.50.138] has quit [] 16:51:29 -!- tfb [~tfb@restormel.cley.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:53:05 -!- paolo_m [~user@2-228-95-110.ip190.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:53:57 macrobat [~fuzzyglee@h-17-185.a328.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 16:54:46 -!- fsvehla [~fsvehla@chello084112185050.3.11.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Quit: fsvehla] 16:54:51 CoverSlide [~rhoffman@206-190-89-167.static.twtelecom.net] has joined #lisp 16:55:14 Straylight [~user@bfx.expressionanalysis.com] has joined #lisp 16:57:00 -!- lemonodor [~jwiseman@mobile-166-137-177-014.mycingular.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:57:06 lemonodor_ [~jwiseman@cpe-75-83-152-209.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:58:24 -!- przl [~przlrkt@46.231.183.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:00:13 -!- milosn [~milosn@82-68-174-118.in-addr.centralnic.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:00:28 -!- svetlyak40wt [~svetlyak4@dhcp-218-71-wifi.yandex.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:01:11 ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.186] has joined #lisp 17:01:30 tfb [~tfb@restormel.cley.com] has joined #lisp 17:01:35 svetlyak40wt [~svetlyak4@dhcp-218-71-wifi.yandex.net] has joined #lisp 17:01:50 -!- svetlyak40wt [~svetlyak4@dhcp-218-71-wifi.yandex.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:02:10 przl [~przlrkt@46.231.183.162] has joined #lisp 17:04:03 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:04:46 blackwolf [~blackwolf@ool-4574e84c.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 17:04:58 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:06:08 -!- Asgeir [~asgeir@sal63-1-82-243-96-129.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: mi tawa!] 17:07:55 jesusito [~user@212.24.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 17:10:24 -!- przl [~przlrkt@46.231.183.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 17:10:25 -!- varjagg [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:10:31 -!- cdidd [~cdidd@95-26-28-94.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:10:38 -!- snits [~snits@inet-hqmc06-o.oracle.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:10:49 snits [~snits@inet-hqmc06-o.oracle.com] has joined #lisp 17:13:18 am0c [~am0c@am0c.broker.freenet6.net] has joined #lisp 17:13:43 So, which library provides local nicknames that are local to a package, not a to file? 17:15:47 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@94.144.63.83] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:19:23 -!- andytoshi [~username@gateway/tor-sasl/andytoshi] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.0] 17:19:53 Urfin: that's not really a library feature. There are some hacks that plug into a couple implementations, but SBCL recently grew package-local nicknames, and I hear other implementations might try to offer compatible interfaces soon. 17:22:17 -!- Vivitron [~Vivitron@pool-98-110-213-33.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:26:20 sdemarre [~serge@109.134.176.104] has joined #lisp 17:26:54 if they can stop talking about having a Holy Grail Generic Package Name Hook CDR that no one will implement. 17:27:10 pkhuong: Ah, I see. I hoped there was some portable layer that hooked into what implementations provided. 17:27:55 instead of patching a broken concept, why is no one working on replacing it with a working one? 17:28:17 what broken concept? 17:28:23 packages 17:28:30 what's wrong with packages? 17:28:37 symbols 17:28:37 come on. 17:28:49 symbols are broken? I missed the memo. 17:28:50 it's a flat namespace 17:29:11 ^-- ding, ding, ding, ding 17:29:23 that is too global for hygiene, not global enough for inter-process sharing. 17:29:57 eh. These are two separate things. 17:30:08 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:30:11 package-local nicknames are desirable whether you have a hierarchical concept of namespaces or not. 17:30:15 all the cost of "global", none of the benefits. 17:31:05 also, import creates a hardlink, not a symlink -- one where the symbol-name cannot be overridden, either. 17:32:41 mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has joined #lisp 17:32:44 give me hygienic identifiers and/or a real global namespace (URL). 17:33:47 -!- foom [jknight@nat/google/x-olrpjoiidnjlibmv] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:35:15 sounds boring 17:35:51 UUID? 17:36:40 -!- svs_ [~svs@104-252-AGAVEBB-NM.abq.nm.agavebb.net] has quit [Quit: svs_] 17:36:46 Odin- [~sbkhh@erudite.anarchism.is] has joined #lisp 17:39:01 stassats, that's one option. 17:39:13 I've heard jknight make this complaint about symbols, and I really don't buy it. 17:39:27 -!- tcr [~tcr@84-72-21-32.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:39:37 But then, I don't think hygiene is a worthwhile goal either 17:40:07 foom [jknight@nat/google/x-bnjacejcylijvhql] has joined #lisp 17:40:08 there's an AI company on the west coast with a Lisp using 128-bit "words" 17:40:10 Hygiene is nice, but I think it's a waste of time to jump through stupid hoops to achieve it. 17:40:24 fsvehla [~fsvehla@h081217181184.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 17:40:36 said hoops are not worse then gensym. 17:40:51 they are 17:40:54 gensym is simple 17:41:01 dedicated DSLs are not 17:41:12 at least gensym feels like lisp :( 17:41:12 and they bring you benefits such as traceable source code, macros that compose well, etc. 17:41:14 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f757430.pool.mediaways.net] has joined #lisp 17:41:24 you mean "low-level" 17:41:31 lisp is an abstract low-level language. 17:41:42 I'm banking on better, high-level mechanisms for achieving hygiene. 17:42:02 such as? 17:42:08 lexical fexprs 17:42:22 or some derivative of them. 17:42:24 lexical == hygiene 17:42:48 yes, I'm talking about fexprs in a language with first-class lexenvs. 17:42:54 and macros are a subset of fexpr, so I wonder how you can like fexprs and not macros. 17:42:56 *tfb* will take bets that a conversation very like this will happen more than ten years from now 17:42:59 Kernel will save us all 17:43:06 przl [~przlrkt@46.231.183.162] has joined #lisp 17:43:22 Fare: macros are two-stage and can't close over definition-time values like fexprs can. 17:43:50 fexprs are two-stage, too (or more) -- just interleaving it 17:44:20 and yes, macros can close over definition-time values -- at their stage. 17:44:42 but that doesn't get you hygiene. 17:44:47 the difference is indeed the staging. 17:44:49 fexprs do. 17:45:01 yes, macros can be hygienic. 17:45:15 macros have strict staging, fexprs don't. 17:45:18 can they still look like CL macros? 17:45:23 mostly 17:45:54 Racket's syntax-case has #' for syntax (analog of quote), #` for quasi-syntax (analog of quasi-quote) 17:45:57 can I get rid of all my gensyms and just put some extra ,s in my code and make a CL macro hygienic? 17:46:24 sykopomp: no 17:46:42 or not with racket's 17:46:51 `(myfun ,@foo) => `(,myfun ,@foo) <-- this version's hygienic in a kernel-like. 17:46:58 mostly. You might also have to explicitly move between lists and expressions with datum-to-syntax and syntax-to-datum at some points. 17:47:02 ^-- this one isn't 17:47:14 sounds complicated. 17:47:18 I like kernel's approach better. 17:47:25 AeroNotix [~xeno@abod86.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 17:47:28 #'(myfun . foo) is hygienic 17:47:48 -!- Urfin [~user@37.142.5.67] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:47:55 scheme is using #' wrong 17:47:58 if you want to control where exactly this foo is getting bound, you can play with syntax-to-datum 17:48:32 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:48:40 cool. 17:48:47 so let's just drop this scheme nonsense and go with kernel. 17:48:49 glad that's settled 17:49:01 *Fare* shrugs 17:49:17 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 17:49:30 -!- snits [~snits@inet-hqmc06-o.oracle.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:49:50 my next lisp will have such strict staging that programs get compiled in a different process than the current one (by default) 17:50:16 and code changes are transactional. 17:50:22 metacompilation 17:50:29 -!- ykm [~ykm@124.155.255.250] has left #lisp 17:50:31 why not get rid of compilation vs runtime entirely? 17:50:35 Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 17:50:41 just assume it's one thing 17:50:43 because then you have an interpreter 17:50:54 nah, get a smart enough compiler 17:50:55 so if you define two mutually-recursive functions, there's no race condition where one is defined and not the other. 17:51:04 I'm only talking about merging them from the point of view of users. 17:51:06 then you have an interpreter with a JIT 17:51:18 it's still -compiled- 17:51:23 I want to beat C at the size of hello-world and on embedded systems. 17:52:23 -!- Defluo [~Defluo@gateway/tor-sasl/defluo] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 17:52:47 Fare: fwiw, transactional code changes may very well be a waste of time in practice. You probably have different experiences than I, but in Erlang land, there's versioned module code updates -- and Joe Armstrong pretty much just tells people to shut down the erlang node and restart the whole system on code change, because it's easier, safer, and you should be able to do it without stopping your overall system. 17:53:02 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 17:53:15 as far as I'm concerned, the only use for code updates is rapid prototyping and interactive development. Once it goes live, I don't care. 17:53:21 eldariof [~CLD@pppoe-223-84-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has joined #lisp 17:53:45 sykopomp, IOW, Joe says that the transaction is at the module level 17:53:48 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:54:03 sykopomp: also loading patches at boot time (before there are race-condition problems) 17:54:36 well, I'm obviously biased 17:54:46 Fare: I'm saying there's more to code changes than at what level you do the transaction. 17:54:46 I spent a lot of time making ASDF hot-upgradable. 17:55:08 the concern for Joe is, as far as I remember, more about the complexity of dealing with the data that already exists in a running system. 17:55:10 sykopomp, what is there? 17:55:28 Erlang doesn't have update-instance-for-redefined-class 17:55:30 snits [~snits@inet-hqmc08-o.oracle.com] has joined #lisp 17:55:45 but yes, that's an issue. 17:55:48 Fare: and I'd rather ,s-r-i-l than bother writing an update-instance-for-redefined-class method every time. 17:56:04 s-r-i-l ? 17:56:06 I'm saying that yes, it's interesting, yes, it exists in a number of systems, but it's probably not worth the trouble of implementing it, in practice. 17:56:11 slime-restart-inferior-lisp 17:56:36 whether it's worth it or not probably depends on the system. 17:56:53 Fare: not to mention, it assumes I have a complete enough idea of code changes and how they affect my live data to reliably write an u-i-f-r-c method. 17:56:56 I'm interested in robotic applications where it's worth it. 17:57:22 throwing state away is sometimes not an option. 17:57:51 perhaps in that application 17:58:05 explicitly serializing state then rebooting and deserializing it is sometimes an option, but it's high-latency 17:58:27 Kalaunu [~Kalaunu@www.nowhere-else.org] has joined #lisp 17:58:30 in the software Joe designs, he assumes you can recover from one of your nodes simply crashing, including not losing any important data. 17:58:38 yup 17:58:47 I am semi-familiar with Erlang's model. 17:58:48 -!- Kalaunu [~Kalaunu@www.nowhere-else.org] has left #lisp 17:58:51 so worst case, you end up doing a little bit of extra work after recovery, possibly duplicate data (you can either duplicate or lose data. You pick) 17:59:21 -!- neufeld` is now known as neufeld 17:59:44 still, I recall reading about the way the mars rover was designed, and tehy also took an extremely erlangy fallback approach. 17:59:56 -!- breakds [~breakds@ppp-70-226-163-93.dsl.mdsnwi.ameritech.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 18:00:00 iirc, they basically greenspunned OTP :) 18:00:13 milosn [~milosn@user-5AF50FDE.broadband.tesco.net] has joined #lisp 18:00:24 mars rover can just say "oh, something's wrong, let's simply reboot" 18:00:33 a driving car can't do that 18:00:46 not during that crazy landing 18:01:00 -!- AeroNotix [~xeno@abod86.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: Uploading hax.....] 18:01:01 stassats: a driving car absolutely can do that if it can reboot in milliseconds 18:01:04 actually, it can do that, if a reboot is quick. 18:01:14 a driving car can certainly have backup systems that will take over. Redundancy is probably the best way to ensure availability. 18:01:33 AeroNotix [~xeno@abod86.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 18:01:39 don't reboot the whole system. Go to a backup, remove the broken one, bring the rebooted one back into control. Done. 18:02:02 or wake up the human 18:02:13 sykopomp: which is what everyone in the world actually does, of course. 18:05:12 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-178-244.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 18:07:27 -!- nan_ [~user@178.233.216.230] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:08:00 -!- answer_42 [~answer_42@gateway/tor-sasl/answer42/x-66983568] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:08:04 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:14:17 -!- victor_lowther [~victorlow@143.166.116.80] has quit [Quit: Leaving IRC - dircproxy 1.2.0] 18:15:52 lukas_ [~lukas@ip4-83-240-49-166.cust.nbox.cz] has joined #lisp 18:16:21 -!- przl [~przlrkt@46.231.183.162] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:16:47 -!- AeroNotix [~xeno@abod86.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: Uploading hax.....] 18:17:42 AeroNotix [~xeno@abod86.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 18:18:10 lukas__ [~lukas@ip4-83-240-49-166.cust.nbox.cz] has joined #lisp 18:22:20 ASau [~user@46.115.97.161] has joined #lisp 18:23:22 -!- AeroNotix [~xeno@abod86.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: Uploading hax.....] 18:23:44 AeroNotix [~xeno@abod86.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 18:25:16 mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has joined #lisp 18:27:40 edgar-rft [~GOD@HSI-KBW-149-172-63-75.hsi13.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 18:32:32 Bike [~Glossina@63-229-134-7.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 18:36:17 drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has joined #lisp 18:36:57 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-76-254-45-27.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:37:14 -!- tkd [~tomek@tlahuizcalpantecuhtli.wa.ht] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:38:03 tkd [~tomek@tlahuizcalpantecuhtli.wa.ht] has joined #lisp 18:40:47 -!- replcated [~user@static-241-143-171-68.axsne.net] has quit [Quit: BRB returning to a default color scheme.] 18:41:11 -!- milosn [~milosn@user-5AF50FDE.broadband.tesco.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:44:04 milosn [~milosn@user-5AF50FDE.broadband.tesco.net] has joined #lisp 18:45:21 -!- Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-72-66-99-183.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:48:49 cafaro [~tman@37-251-16-95.FTTH.ispfabriek.nl] has joined #lisp 18:48:49 -!- cafaro [~tman@37-251-16-95.FTTH.ispfabriek.nl] has quit [Changing host] 18:48:49 cafaro [~tman@unaffiliated/cafaro] has joined #lisp 18:50:23 victor_lowther [~victorlow@143.166.116.80] has joined #lisp 18:53:46 -!- tfb [~tfb@restormel.cley.com] has quit [Quit: gone] 18:53:50 doomlord [~doomlod@host86-171-15-248.range86-171.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 18:54:31 fantazo [~fantazo@213.129.230.10] has joined #lisp 18:55:10 -!- Posterdati [~antani@host107-26-dynamic.59-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.1.3 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 18:55:33 Posterdati [~antani@host107-26-dynamic.59-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 18:55:39 Ralt_ [~ralt@89-92-204-200.hfc.dyn.abo.bbox.fr] has joined #lisp 19:03:46 Juanito-Jons [~jreynoso@187.240.222.79] has joined #lisp 19:07:54 -!- sdemarre [~serge@109.134.176.104] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:08:03 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-96-240-138-223.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 19:13:49 send electroshocks to the driver? 19:15:11 -!- nightfly [~sage@sagenite.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 19:21:04 -!- flyingyellow [~flying@ckc-110-226.ResHall.Berkeley.EDU] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:24:22 nightfly [~sage@sagenite.net] has joined #lisp 19:26:11 -!- mcsontos_ [~mcsontos@77.240.184.15] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:26:18 normanrichards [~normanric@rrcs-108-178-120-144.sw.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:29:18 -!- urandom__ [~user@ip-88-152-214-113.unitymediagroup.de] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 19:30:53 milosn_ [~milosn@user-5AF50134.broadband.tesco.net] has joined #lisp 19:33:35 svetlyak40wt [~svetlyak4@broadband-95-84-141-55.nationalcablenetworks.ru] has joined #lisp 19:34:10 -!- milosn [~milosn@user-5AF50FDE.broadband.tesco.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:35:21 KingsKnighted [~quassel@c-174-52-149-13.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:36:22 -!- milosn_ [~milosn@user-5AF50134.broadband.tesco.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:36:52 svetlyak40wt_ [~svetlyak4@broadband-95-84-141-55.nationalcablenetworks.ru] has joined #lisp 19:37:24 -!- svetlyak40wt [~svetlyak4@broadband-95-84-141-55.nationalcablenetworks.ru] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 19:38:11 andytoshi [~username@gateway/tor-sasl/andytoshi] has joined #lisp 19:38:19 -!- Ralt_ [~ralt@89-92-204-200.hfc.dyn.abo.bbox.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:38:49 naryl: recently there are/were three different CL systems named CLON. 19:39:01 Not a double clash, but a TRIPLE clash!!! 19:40:05 Fare: lexical scoping of systems over the internet??? 19:41:01 puchacz [~puchacz@46-65-36-47.zone16.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:41:29 Fare: so (ql:quickload :xyz) will download xyz.informatimago.com before xyz.tunes.org, when I do it, but the reverse when you do it? 19:42:21 _d3f [~freedo@nl2.ovpn.to] has joined #lisp 19:42:47 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:43:21 -!- Kvaks [~kvaks@90.168.189.109.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:45:15 -!- Straylight [~user@bfx.expressionanalysis.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:45:31 Straylight [~user@bfx.expressionanalysis.com] has joined #lisp 19:45:58 ehu [ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 19:46:16 toekutr [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 19:46:37 Sure, just set *system-search-path* 19:46:41 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.214] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 19:47:14 milosn [~milosn@user-5AF50134.broadband.tesco.net] has joined #lisp 19:48:07 Otherwise, obviously, I have code that maps package names such as com.hp.zebu to $SOME_BASE_PACKAGES_DIR/com/hp/zebu/zebu.asd and when I downloaded dependencies, I of course stored them in those directories, where else? 19:49:32 slyrus [~chatzilla@173-228-44-92.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 19:51:08 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 19:52:54 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@rrcs-108-178-120-144.sw.biz.rr.com] has quit [] 19:55:11 In my Common Lisp debugger - I'm trying to figure out how to attach variable names to memory locations so that I can inspect lexical variables. Is anyone familiar with ways of implementing this? 19:56:01 Background for those who don't know me - I've implemented a new Common Lisp compiler based on a C++ core. 19:56:17 drmeister: search for lexenv.lisp in the sbcl sources 19:56:19 -!- ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.186] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:56:46 Ralt_ [~ralt@89-92-204-200.hfc.dyn.abo.bbox.fr] has joined #lisp 19:56:54 -!- Ralt_ [~ralt@89-92-204-200.hfc.dyn.abo.bbox.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:57:37 fe[nl]ix: I differentiate between lexical environments that are available at compile time and the activation frames (arrays of values) that are available at run-time. Does sbcl use lexical environments at runtime? 19:57:44 Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-72-66-99-183.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:58:35 I'm following your advice (looking at lexenv.lisp in sbcl) anyway. 19:58:53 so you mean debug frames ? 20:00:09 drmeister: there's a function m(e(v))->f(v) 20:00:51 So if you have a function E(f)->e, you can use m(E(f)(v)) to find f(v). 20:00:54 fe[nl]ix: I think I mean debug frames. 20:00:59 pnpuff [~dioxirane@gateway/tor-sasl/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 20:01:12 pjb: I'm not following you, sorry. 20:01:45 -!- Fare [~fare@146.94.106.109.dynamic.sat.abo.nordnet.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:02:03 e = environment, v = variable, f = frame. m is some mapping your compiler implements from environments to frames. You need a reverse mapping, or at least, to be able to find e from f: E. 20:02:18 tcr [~tcr@84-72-21-32.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 20:03:31 fe[nl]ix: Currently when I drop into my debugger, I can move up and down the current call stack, and I see the code that was executing. I can dump the activation frames at each level of the call stack but they are just arrays of objects. I have both interpreted and compiled code. In the interpreted code, the lexical environment is accessible as part of the closure and I can inspect values by their name. In compiled code I can' 20:03:31 t currently do that. 20:03:47 -!- pnpuff [~dioxirane@gateway/tor-sasl/pnpuff] has left #lisp 20:04:02 pnpuff [~dioxirane@gateway/tor-sasl/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 20:04:10 drmeister: usually, m = identity. 20:04:24 e(v) = offset of v in the environment = f(v). 20:04:32 e(v) = offset of v in the environment = f(v) = offset in the frame. 20:04:36 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-178-244.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:04:55 I'm looking for illumination as to how I can attach debugging information to the code so that I can access values on the stack by their names. 20:05:01 There's no point in making it more difficult so we have a hard time understanding why it's so difficult for you. You just need to be able to identify the environemnt from the frame: E(f). 20:05:41 pjb: Ok, now I follow you. Let me read it through a couple of times and think and I'll ask a question. 20:05:53 This can be done with a "display", but in the presence of recursion, it might be preferable to have some kind of reference in the frame to the environment. 20:05:54 drmeister: well like pjb's implying, you could have (for code compiled at high debug) a vector of names for use with the frame offsets that already exist. 20:06:37 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:06:53 -!- pnpuff [~dioxirane@gateway/tor-sasl/pnpuff] has left #lisp 20:08:04 pjb: Is it guaranteed that the environment is still around when the code is compiled? Are you suggesting that I should point the frame back to the lexical environment that it was created from or that I should be able to recreate the environment? Or am I still confused? 20:08:36 drmeister: if you want to debug, you need at least part of the environment. Eg. at least the name of the variables. 20:08:52 And "it" is not guaranted, YOU are guaranteeing it. 20:09:15 Again, you are the implementer here, you do it as you want. 20:09:23 Notice that what you need is e(v), not e. 20:09:48 E(f) is only needed to know what variable f(v) corresponds to. 20:09:51 pjb: Whether the environment variable names are still around is also dependent on the debug level of the block of code right? 20:10:12 Yes. You can choose to implement (optimize (debug 0)) as throwing away variable names. 20:10:20 or not. It's as you want. 20:10:28 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 20:10:58 paul0_ [~paul0@177.96.55.5] has joined #lisp 20:11:28 pjb: Ok, got it. I'm trying to avoid doing something really non-standard. I'd like to approximate the behavior of other Common Lisps impls. 20:11:34 -!- browndawg [~browndawg@117.214.173.228] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:11:37 drmeister: you may want to read about ELF (the object file format) and DWARF (the debugging information stored in ELF files). 20:11:52 -!- paul0 [~paul0@187.58.226.39] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:11:52 -!- paul0_ is now known as paul0 20:11:59 Since you're integrating with C++, it may be advantageous of using this framework for the debugging information. 20:12:10 Partly because everything I've seen in Common Lisp is really well thought out. Even the stuff that isn't described very explicitly in the CLHS - if that makes any sense. 20:12:23 drmeister: http://www.eagercon.com/dwarf/dwarf-2.0.0.pdf 20:12:31 drmeister: write a dummy function, and compare its disassembly under (debug 0) and (debug 3) on SBCL 20:12:59 pjb: I'm pretty familiar with DWARF, it's the way debugging metadata is attached to LLVM-intermediate representation. 20:13:22 -!- svetlyak40wt_ [~svetlyak4@broadband-95-84-141-55.nationalcablenetworks.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:13:26 So you should have an idea of the information you may keep around for the debugger. 20:13:27 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@173-228-44-92.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:13:37 fe[nl]ix: is it necessary for iolib to use asdf/package:symbol-call: instead of asdf/package:symbol-call? 20:13:44 instead of asdf:symbol-call 20:14:01 drmeister: you can see how sbcl does things by looking at src/compiler/policies.lisp. e.g. there's a let-conversion quality with a default value of (if (<= debug speed) 3 0), where the numbers mean ("off" "maybe" "on" "on"), and the docs are "Control inline-substitution of used-once local functions." 20:14:02 I implemented generation of DWARF metadata but sadly GDB doesn't use it at all. It hadn't occurred to me that I should make use of it in my debugger - makes sense though. 20:14:05 stassats: no 20:14:17 svetlyak40wt [~svetlyak4@broadband-95-84-141-55.nationalcablenetworks.ru] has joined #lisp 20:14:28 though, old asdf doesn't have this symbol-call anyway 20:14:34 stassats: cook up a patch and I'll merge it 20:14:43 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 20:15:20 -!- svetlyak40wt [~svetlyak4@broadband-95-84-141-55.nationalcablenetworks.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:15:55 mattrepl [~mattrepl@129.174.219.178] has joined #lisp 20:15:56 By the way - thanks everyone for your help a couple of days ago when I came on asking about compiling QUOTE - I figured out what you were trying to tell me. 20:16:33 Basically QUOTE compiles static data structures into the compiled code that the compiled code references. It's all built at compile time. 20:17:08 Yes. quote quotes literal values that are stored in the data section of an elf object file. 20:17:12 typically. 20:18:00 And cyclic references (created with #= and ##) are just pointers within the data that point to other static data in the compiled file. 20:18:56 Yes. 20:19:05 My current problem is implementing QUOTE using the reference-counting shared pointers that I use to handle memory. I'm working on that now. 20:19:20 Hence garbage collectors. 20:19:35 But anyways, quoted literals should probably not be garbage collected. 20:19:48 quote should be collected, unless the code it's inside is collected 20:19:50 two- [~1@199.254.238.134] has joined #lisp 20:20:02 normanrichards [~normanric@rrcs-71-41-235-137.sw.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:20:02 shouldn't 20:20:10 -!- jesusito [~user@212.24.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has left #lisp 20:20:39 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@rrcs-71-41-235-137.sw.biz.rr.com] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 20:21:30 pbj: Never garbage collected - understood. I'm working on making that happen. 20:21:48 svetlyak40wt [~svetlyak4@broadband-95-84-141-55.nationalcablenetworks.ru] has joined #lisp 20:23:05 bitonic` [~user@027b68cc.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 20:23:07 Does anyone have any good pointers to CL implementations of pattern matchers? I'd like to learn more about traversing complex tree's with lots of node types and matching patterns of node types. 20:24:50 -!- bitonic [~user@5ad2b911.bb.sky.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20:24:53 https://github.com/m2ym/optima i think this is popular? 20:24:53 -!- snowylike [~sn@91-67-171-156-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:25:00 drmeister: "trees". the apostrophe does not make a plural 20:25:27 ngz [~user@254.83.199.77.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 20:26:53 Bike and fe[nl]ix: Thanks - I'll look at those. 20:27:03 -!- bitonic` [~user@027b68cc.bb.sky.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:27:32 drmeister: optima is probably the best matcher around 20:27:36 bitonic` [~user@027b68cc.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 20:27:48 *fe[nl]ix* met its author in Kyoto 20:27:53 I've got some ideas for writing a kick-*ss C++ refactoring tool written in CL that I want to use to clean up my C++ code. It requires pattern matching. 20:28:23 you can say kick-ass 20:28:51 -!- Juanito-Jons [~jreynoso@187.240.222.79] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:28:58 I'm Canadian. 20:29:24 -!- am0c [~am0c@am0c.broker.freenet6.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:29:35 * doesn't make it any less offensive 20:29:46 http://cliki.net/site/search?query=pattern+matcher 20:30:00 normanrichards [~normanric@rrcs-71-41-235-137.sw.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:30:26 And there's also com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.pmatch 20:32:01 I am Acadian myself, so can say 'ass' without a problem 20:32:33 (or Canadien, if you want to include the country name in it) :P 20:33:27 is it related to Accadian? 20:35:56 stassats: it is indeed! and to creole as well, and to louisiana 20:36:03 am0c [~am0c@am0c.broker.freenet6.net] has joined #lisp 20:36:21 (i was joking) 20:37:09 I wasn't ... and spoke francais-canadien first, so is a part of my vocabulary :) 20:38:22 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@rrcs-71-41-235-137.sw.biz.rr.com] has quit [] 20:38:51 drewc: i meant this accadian: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accadian 20:40:24 ASau` [~user@176.4.52.241] has joined #lisp 20:40:32 stassats: yes, I know. that is a french term, though spelled witk 'kk' instead of 'cc' 20:41:41 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-190-149.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:42:40 replcated` [~rparker@static-241-143-171-68.axsne.net] has joined #lisp 20:42:50 -!- Straylight [~user@bfx.expressionanalysis.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:43:58 -!- ASau [~user@46.115.97.161] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:44:03 -!- stokachu [~stokachu@50.58.87.197] has quit [Changing host] 20:44:03 stokachu [~stokachu@ubuntu/member/stokachu] has joined #lisp 20:44:22 -!- am0c [~am0c@am0c.broker.freenet6.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:45:34 Straylight [~user@test8.expressionanalysis.com] has joined #lisp 20:47:05 and, Acadians tend to take it seriously, as the francais I speak in ancient and 'dead' in france, but alive in NS/NB/PQ and Franco-ON ... and has a different 'accent' over even Quebec Francais ... I was born in Halifax and spoke french first ... anyways, this is not #acadia, so my bad 20:47:27 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-90.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 20:50:14 -!- tali713 [~user@c-76-17-236-129.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:51:07 youlysses [~user@75-132-21-229.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 20:52:01 hydan [~user@ip-89-102-13-27.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 20:52:06 normanrichards [~normanric@rrcs-108-178-120-144.sw.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:53:07 tali713 [~user@c-76-17-236-129.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:54:20 -!- tali713 [~user@c-76-17-236-129.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:56:21 tali713 [~user@c-76-17-236-129.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:57:21 am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has joined #lisp 20:58:39 -!- KingsKnighted [~quassel@c-174-52-149-13.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:58:44 -!- eldariof 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