00:02:01 -!- findiggle [~kirkwood@173-10-106-172-BusName-Washington.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:04:09 -!- tcr [~tcr@84-72-21-32.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:04:45 -!- Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:04:57 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:08:09 -!- Jubb [~ghost@pool-108-28-62-61.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:10:51 -!- foom [jknight@nat/google/x-mwlhanbtjyntupcs] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:14:33 Corvidium [~cosman246@c-24-56-228-105.customer.broadstripe.net] has joined #lisp 00:16:09 Khisanth [~Khisanth@50.14.244.111] has joined #lisp 00:17:38 -!- jynnantonix [~textual@140.247.0.100] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 00:17:50 sarcasmus [~univyrse@71-82-19-203.static.mtgm.al.charter.com] has joined #lisp 00:18:36 im back, im sure this one is way simpler (progn (format t "some words")(read-line)) is not displaying the text before wanting the input 00:18:59 sarcasmus: (force-output) after the format to flush the output buffer. 00:19:16 alright ill try it 00:20:08 works fine, is there any reason that was put into place as opposed to making that the default action? 00:20:21 (force-output) i mean 00:20:50 So that output can be buffered. 00:21:12 -!- Khisanth [~Khisanth@50.14.244.111] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:21:38 chr` [~user@148.122.202.244] has joined #lisp 00:21:55 For example imagine that you call format a thousand times in a loop. It would be more efficient if that output could be directed to some memory buffer, and then once the buffer is full enough you can output it. It's pretty common. 00:21:56 i understand, but why does it buffer without explicit instructions? i get that it can buffer, i just wanna know when sbcl will buffer without my permission so I can design better 00:21:59 sarcasmus, reading and writing in chunks is usually a lot faster than doing it char-by-char. As such, you can just collect input until there's an opportune time to print it. If you want to print things out immediately, then FORCE-OUTPUT 00:22:24 -!- Kvaks [~kvaks@45.163.189.109.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:22:25 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-185-82-146.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:22:36 sarcasmus, you have control over it completely. The API would be much messier if you told it when to buffer 00:22:55 -!- chr [~user@148.122.202.244] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:23:06 sarcasmus: sbcl, like all the standard system calls, will do buffered i/o by default. 00:23:42 output a newline or a force-output to signal that you want to flush the buffer 00:24:40 sarcasmus: FYI almost all standard librarys for almost all languages default to buffered output; stdout in C for example is line-buffered 00:24:55 dnolen [~user@pool-96-224-16-85.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:24:55 -!- tankrim [~user@pdpc/supporter/active/tankrim] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:25:15 Kvaks [~kvaks@45.163.189.109.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 00:25:49 ok 00:25:58 thats good to know, i just did not know that before 00:26:17 -!- leoncamel [~leoncamel@124.126.211.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:27:37 jsfb [~jon@unaffiliated/jsfb] has joined #lisp 00:28:08 tcr 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[~jreynoso@187.240.220.69] has joined #lisp 01:51:42 -!- bitonic` [~user@027b7a43.bb.sky.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:51:54 Hello , how ca I convert string to float 01:52:06 naryl [~weechat@46.182.24.168] has joined #lisp 01:52:45 tingfod [~user@98.156.13.154] has joined #lisp 01:52:47 print 01:52:50 I get parse-integer but only for integer 01:52:57 Oh, the other way around,, sorry. 01:53:10 There are parse-float and parse-number libraries, I think. 01:53:33 -!- tingfod [~user@98.156.13.154] has left #lisp 01:54:02 ok I will review , thanks 01:55:43 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@217.17.38.43] has quit [Quit: leaving] 01:56:09 tingfod [~komorris@98.156.13.154] has joined #lisp 01:56:21 -!- Jasko2 [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:56:49 Jasko2 [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:57:11 -!- La0fer [~Laofers1@66.85.140.163] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:58:33 rmathews [~roshan@122.164.147.24] has joined #lisp 01:59:52 tingfod` [~user@98.156.13.154] has joined #lisp 02:00:30 -!- tingfod` [~user@98.156.13.154] has left #lisp 02:01:15 -!- tingfod [~komorris@98.156.13.154] has left #lisp 02:02:38 tingfod [~komorris@98.156.13.154] has joined #lisp 02:02:54 #ping 02:02:58 lol 02:03:01 -!- pjb [~t@AMontsouris-651-1-31-168.w82-123.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:04:07 hey so does having a lisp program that reads its source code out as output with a cat function count as a quine? 02:04:19 seems kinda like cheating, idk 02:04:44 sarcasmus: usually file access is disqualified in quines, but it's not like they're very well defined most of the time 02:05:32 oh I see, that would make it quite difficult I think. yeah I love reading code golf threads though and things like that 02:06:23 ((lambda (x) (list x (list 'quote x))) '(lambda (x) (list x (list 'quote x)))) is I think the canonical CL one. 02:07:11 oh, that's nifty, I see how that works 02:07:40 -!- tingfod [~komorris@98.156.13.154] has left #lisp 02:07:44 (#1=(lambda (x) `(,x ',x)) '#1#) is shorter but has the same idea so it's not all that interesting. 02:08:03 neat 02:08:12 how long have you been lisping? 02:08:22 It is kind of unreadable, so that's well in the spirit of golf. 02:08:26 Um, a year or two I guess. 02:08:43 thats it? you seem way more experienced, or maybe im just stupid 02:08:44 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@1.147.59.31] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 02:09:43 i'm the kind of person who reads manuals. 02:10:11 oh, my dad's that way too, he's been writing cobol for 30 years and knows every nook and cranny 02:12:00 springz [~springz@123.151.195.1] has joined #lisp 02:12:59 -!- zolk3ri [~Zol1ka@unaffiliated/zolk3ri] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:15:32 scharan [~scharan@169.235.25.47] has joined #lisp 02:20:31 -!- axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-88-224.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.0] 02:23:26 -!- 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[~Khisanth@50.14.244.111] has joined #lisp 02:39:41 Hi, is there an easy or standard way to know, inside a dolist, if you are currently on the first or last element? 02:40:12 i guess just increment a count and compare it against the length of the list ? 02:40:27 gendl: don't think so, loop could help 02:40:33 that'd be the way to do it, yes 02:41:02 but if i'm incrementing a count, i might as well use dotimes with nth 02:41:21 but that would be inefficient because nth has to walk the whole list every time 02:41:47 I'm scared of loop because of Paul Graham's recommendation in ANSI Common Lisp 02:42:17 i'm settling on incrementing a count and comparing 02:42:49 -!- Juanito-Jons [~jreynoso@187.240.220.69] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 02:43:07 loop would be like... (loop for x from 1 and y in '(a b c) do (print (list x y))) 02:43:09 gendl: graham had an odd tate of loop 02:43:14 => (1 a) (1 b) (1 c) NIL 02:43:21 er (2 b) (3 c) 02:43:35 they'd probably compile to about the same thing anyway. 02:43:42 -!- skbierm [~sascha@p4FEA0E60.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:43:56 the loop does look tempting in a way 02:44:18 (loop for cell on list for firstp = t then nil for lastp = (not (cdr cell)) for current = (car cell) do (format t "~& ~A ~A ~A ~%" firtsp lastp current)) 02:45:08 list is obviously where your list goes. replace it with '(1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8) for a quick test 02:45:26 obviously assumes that your list is non-circular (but then again, would you expect to reach an end in that case?) 02:46:10 -!- segv- [~mb@dslb-092-078-122-164.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: segv-] 02:46:57 and (not (cdr cell)) is probably better written as (null (cdr cell)), it expresses the intent better. 02:47:17 dto [~user@pool-96-252-62-13.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:50:40 murilo_fs [~sabayonus@187.53.237.121] has joined #lisp 02:50:45 francisl [~anonymous@bas3-montreal42-1242354060.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 02:51:46 francisl_ [~flavoie@bas3-montreal42-1242354060.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 02:51:49 -!- murilo_fs [~sabayonus@187.53.237.121] has left #lisp 02:52:24 Jubb [~ghost@pool-108-28-62-61.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:54:33 Why not endp? 02:54:47 -!- Khisanth [~Khisanth@50.14.244.111] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:55:39 luqui [~luqui@71-218-16-247.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 02:58:58 -!- springz [~springz@123.151.195.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:00:44 rid3 [~leet@fr.shells.centralhosts.net] has joined #lisp 03:01:02 -!- rid3 [~leet@fr.shells.centralhosts.net] has left #lisp 03:01:17 Forty-Bot [~seana11@pool-72-66-99-183.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:03:16 -!- worstadmin [~worst@174.141.213.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 03:04:54 -!- Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-72-66-99-183.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 03:05:52 foom [jknight@nat/google/x-olrpjoiidnjlibmv] has joined #lisp 03:06:43 -!- chameco [~samuel@213.sub-70-215-8.myvzw.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:10:34 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 03:10:59 jsfb [~jon@unaffiliated/jsfb] has joined #lisp 03:13:50 -!- ZombieChicken [~weechat@unaffiliated/forgottenwizard] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.0] 03:14:36 -!- em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:14:56 normanrichards [~normanric@70.114.215.220] has joined #lisp 03:16:37 Zhivago: like use the names startp end endp instead of firstp and lastp? 03:16:55 madnificent: the function endp 03:17:40 Khisanth [~Khisanth@50.14.244.111] has joined #lisp 03:18:18 Hi, in Slime is there a way to get back previously entered expressions in the repl? 03:18:29 i mean to insert them as part of the new expression you are doing 03:18:51 I know slime-repl-previous-input 03:18:56 Zhivago: because endp needs to walk the list each time. i didn't want O(n^2) for no good reason 03:19:09 madnificent: no it doesn't? 03:19:09 but that only works at a clean repl prompt 03:19:23 gendl: if it's less than three back you can use #.+(++) 03:19:34 axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-88-224.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:19:38 actually, you are right Bike, Zhivago. 03:20:02 and it's clearer. don't know what i was thinking. 03:20:05 -!- Forty-Bot [~seana11@pool-72-66-99-183.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:20:30 Bike: i want to see the actual command, like with slime-repl-previous-input -- i just want it inserted where I am in the new expression 03:21:32 gendl: given the existance and implementation of slime-repl-previous-input and the things paredit give you, it shouldn't be overly hard to write. i don't know it though. it'd be a fun thing to have 03:22:11 madnificent: Thanks, i'll put it on my list. 03:22:57 gendl: if you have it somewhere, feel free to /msg me about it. not sure if i'll be able to use it, but it sounds nice nonetheless. 03:23:22 slime-repl-backward-input looks pretty much the same 03:23:43 glancing through slime-repl.lisp i think you'd just change a few slime-repl-replace-input calls with something that doesn't call slime-repl-delete-current-input 03:27:43 -!- Jasko2 [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:28:20 Jasko2 [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:29:21 JRC [321a477a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.50.26.71.122] has joined #lisp 03:29:25 -!- lusory [~lusory@bb42-60-31-187.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Quit: leaving] 03:29:42 ZombieChicken [~weechat@unaffiliated/forgottenwizard] has joined #lisp 03:30:05 -!- ZombieChicken [~weechat@unaffiliated/forgottenwizard] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:30:24 ZombieChicken [~weechat@unaffiliated/forgottenwizard] has joined #lisp 03:30:41 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@50-196-148-102-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:30:57 -!- ikki [~ikki@187.208.217.71] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 03:31:01 kpreid [~kpreid@50-196-148-102-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 03:32:05 tcr [~tcr@77-56-40-229.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 03:32:15 -!- Dalek_Baldwin [~Adium@108-225-26-178.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:33:46 Bike: Welp, it's not quite that simple. 03:34:16 because if you just insert the previous history 03:34:22 it will keep inserting and inserting 03:34:34 you end up with all the history items one after another... 03:34:46 of course we want it to cycle through them in-place 03:35:08 so i think it would have to keep track of the previous insert, then delete it, before inserting the next one... 03:35:15 or, maybe it could be done with a simple "undo" 03:36:28 it would need a flag to keep track of whether previous command was a slime-repl-history-insert 03:36:35 -!- tcr [~tcr@77-56-40-229.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:36:56  it looks like they already have that for slime-repl-history-insert  same thing basically 03:37:43 -!- jynnantonix [~textual@140.247.0.100] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 03:38:31 oh, my first thought would be having the function make a region to insert into. but i don't know emacs very well, probably best to go with what works 03:39:27 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 03:40:02 zacts [~lcc@unaffiliated/zacts] has joined #lisp 03:40:30 "whatever works" is how i've been working with emacs lisp for years. I have always said i'm going to take time and learn it properly some day 03:41:05 i would guess it's what most people do. 03:44:57 Fare [~fare@173-9-65-97-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 03:45:19 hi Fare . 03:45:28 hi Fare. 03:46:35 hi 03:47:04 ldionmarcil_ [~ldm@dsl-216-221-58-110.mtl.aei.ca] has joined #lisp 03:47:45 -!- Qworkescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 03:47:56 -!- Khisanth [~Khisanth@50.14.244.111] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:48:12 -!- ldionmarcil [~ldm@unaffiliated/maden] has quit [Disconnected by services] 03:48:18 -!- ldionmarcil_ is now known as ldionmarcil 03:48:23 -!- ldionmarcil [~ldm@dsl-216-221-58-110.mtl.aei.ca] has quit [Changing host] 03:48:23 ldionmarcil [~ldm@unaffiliated/maden] has joined #lisp 03:50:44 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@1.144.169.91] has quit [Quit: Bye] 03:50:59 -!- Fare [~fare@173-9-65-97-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 03:50:59 jynnantonix [~textual@140.247.0.100] has joined #lisp 03:53:39 -!- ldionmarcil [~ldm@unaffiliated/maden] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 03:54:28 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 03:55:38 breakds [~breakds@ppp-70-226-163-93.dsl.mdsnwi.ameritech.net] has joined #lisp 03:56:16 Dalek_Baldwin [~Adium@71-84-34-33.dhcp.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has joined #lisp 03:56:22 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 03:58:45 -!- gigamonkey [~textual@50.1.48.145] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 03:59:05 ldionmarcil [~ldm@dsl-199-102-158-75.mtl.aei.ca] has joined #lisp 04:01:25 -!- naryl [~weechat@46.182.24.168] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:01:34 ldionmarcil_ [~ldm@dsl-216-221-63-89.mtl.aei.ca] has joined #lisp 04:03:03 Fare [fare@nat/google/x-bejmuycqghlbhggo] has joined #lisp 04:03:22 Khisanth [~Khisanth@50.14.244.111] has joined #lisp 04:03:28 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:05:36 -!- ldionmarcil [~ldm@dsl-199-102-158-75.mtl.aei.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:06:57 kuzary [~who@gateway/tor-sasl/kuzary] has joined #lisp 04:09:56 -!- arrsim [~user@mail.fitness2live.com.au] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:11:15 -!- zacts [~lcc@unaffiliated/zacts] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 04:11:47 -!- dnolen [~user@pool-96-224-16-85.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 04:11:59 -!- rmathews [~roshan@122.164.147.24] has quit [Quit: ...] 04:12:56 zacts [~lcc@unaffiliated/zacts] has joined #lisp 04:15:16 -!- Khisanth [~Khisanth@50.14.244.111] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 04:16:12 -!- cataska [~user@210.64.6.233] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:17:01 Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 04:17:35 CampinSa` [~user@24-176-103-21.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has joined #lisp 04:19:12 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Disconnected by services] 04:19:20 -!- Amadiro [jonathri@dalvik.ping.uio.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:19:20 -!- clog [~nef@bespin.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:19:20 -!- PuffTheMagic [uid3325@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-firleqmlyjcgwyjg] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:19:20 -!- SeanTAllen [uid4855@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-bopvwehycorjparl] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:19:20 -!- CampinSam [~user@24-176-103-21.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:19:20 -!- fasta [~xchat@xs8.xs4all.nl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:19:38 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 04:19:56 cataska [~user@210.64.6.233] has joined #lisp 04:20:05 fasta [~xchat@xs8.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 04:20:08 Amadiro [jonathri@dalvik.ping.uio.no] has joined #lisp 04:20:35 replcated [~user@24-217-97-210.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 04:20:59 -!- robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 04:21:07 Any books or websites particularly suited to implementing languages and compilers in CL? 04:21:38 replcated: lisp in small pieces? 04:21:55 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 04:22:17 -!- easye [~user@213.33.70.157] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:22:20 -!- cataska [~user@210.64.6.233] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:23:02 gendl: I'm not sure if this includes everything you need, I didn't have time to reproduce on a clean install when I made the paste, but it's at least most of it: http://paste.lisp.org/display/134707 04:23:03 cataska [~user@210.64.6.233] has joined #lisp 04:24:20 Bike: It's been awhile, but i thought LISP covered it well. Didn't know about any other resources. The Dragon Book's sitting on my shelf too, but is not exactly lispy. 04:25:26 -!- zacts [~lcc@unaffiliated/zacts] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:26:38 easye [~user@213.33.70.157] has joined #lisp 04:26:43 -!- easye [~user@213.33.70.157] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:27:23 -!- jynnantonix [~textual@140.247.0.100] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com] 04:27:29 zacts [~lcc@unaffiliated/zacts] has joined #lisp 04:27:30 -!- luqui [~luqui@71-218-16-247.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: luqui] 04:29:16 tiglog [~topeak@61.149.231.66] has joined #lisp 04:29:19 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@50-196-148-102-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 04:29:43 kpreid [~kpreid@50-196-148-102-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 04:32:25 tcr [~tcr@77-56-40-229.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 04:33:41 dnolen [~user@cpe-74-64-61-245.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:34:15 -!- CampinSa` is now known as CampinSam 04:34:47 Khisanth 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[~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:07:37 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 08:07:49 Jasko2 [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:11:03 robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:11:36 loke_erc [~user@c-4957e555.012-14-67626717.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 08:16:51 -!- Bike [~Glossina@63-229-134-7.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: memorize] 08:18:50 adelgado [~TomSawyer@c-66-229-185-165.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:19:02 -!- theos is now known as Guest78667 08:19:24 Fare [fare@nat/google/x-umfvysfndjmoncab] has joined #lisp 08:19:35 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 08:20:32 quchen [~david@wthp166d.physik.uni-wuerzburg.de] has joined #lisp 08:20:50 Pain [~stardivin@218.74.188.101] has joined #lisp 08:21:23 -!- Guest78667 [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 08:21:36 stupid question 08:21:49 -!- MrMc [~quassel@91-64-125-247-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.] 08:22:02 -!- stardiviner [~stardivin@218.74.188.93] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:22:05 :homepage :website :website-url :url :home-page :web-site :web :www -- which should I use? 08:22:12 MrMc [~quassel@91-64-125-247-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 08:22:40 -!- setmeaway [setmeaway3@118.45.149.239] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:23:02 -!- Pain [~stardivin@218.74.188.101] has quit [Client Quit] 08:24:02 akovalenko [~user@95.72.98.198] has joined #lisp 08:24:44 stardiviner [~stardivin@218.74.188.101] has joined #lisp 08:25:32 wchun [~wchun@81-232-46-25-no38.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 08:27:00 :devel-mail :developers-email :electronic-mail-address-to-which-to-send-questions-and-suggestions ? 08:27:08 :devmail 08:27:39 -!- adelgado [~TomSawyer@c-66-229-185-165.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 08:28:57 Fare: fyi -- pathname-directory-pathname and pathname-parent-directory-pathname have identical docstrings 08:29:04 nostoi [~nostoi@179.Red-79-156-53.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 08:29:27 -!- kuzary [~who@gateway/tor-sasl/kuzary] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:31:12 oops, that's a bug 08:31:21 so-- :homepage or :website-url ? 08:31:43 :developers-email or :mailto ? 08:32:01 rmathews_ [~roshan@122.165.89.11] has joined #lisp 08:32:41 -!- rmathews [~roshan@122.165.89.11] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 08:32:42 -!- rmathews_ is now known as rmathews 08:33:18 karswell [~user@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 08:33:42 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@92.47.242.149] has joined #lisp 08:33:42 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@92.47.242.149] has quit [Changing host] 08:33:42 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 08:33:42 attila_lendvai1 [~attila_le@92.47.242.149] has joined #lisp 08:33:42 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Disconnected by services] 08:34:04 zorkmoid [c2ed8e11@gateway/web/freenode/ip.194.237.142.17] has joined #lisp 08:34:12 mm.. good morning1 08:34:24 Fare: is :email too ambiguous? 08:34:43 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@92.47.242.149] has joined #lisp 08:34:43 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@92.47.242.149] has quit [Changing host] 08:34:43 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 08:35:45 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:36:15 yes, :email is way too ambiguous and not effective 08:36:18 just like :url 08:36:24 attila_lendvai, herep? 08:36:33 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 08:36:42 -!- Joreji [~thomas@87-188.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:36:51 Fare: 20% and for 5-10 minutes 08:37:11 przl [~przlrkt@46.231.183.162] has joined #lisp 08:37:30 :homepage :website :website-url :url :www :where-to-point-your-browser-to-to-learn-about-this-software ? 08:37:38 -!- Jasko2 [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:38:07 -!- |3b|` is now known as |3b| 08:38:19 Jasko2 [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:38:31 :link 08:38:33 :mail :email :mailto :|maintainer's email" :devmail :developers-email :electronic-mail-address-to-which-to-send-questions-suggestions-and-gripes ? 08:38:56 why not :href while you're at it? 08:41:07 *attila_lendvai* would go :uri or :url instead of :href, but has no idea what's the topic and leaves in a bit 08:41:37 in a defsystem, specify where to point one's browser at to learn more about the software. 08:41:54 or rather to see what the maintainers have to say about it 08:42:15 -!- przl [~przlrkt@46.231.183.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:43:06 OK for :homepage, then 08:43:55 :buck-tracker instead of :buck-tracker-url or :buck-tracking? 08:43:59 :buck-track ? 08:45:31 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 08:45:31 -!- attila_lendvai1 [~attila_le@92.47.242.149] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 08:46:31 bitonic` [~user@027b7a43.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 08:47:12 -!- nostoi [~nostoi@179.Red-79-156-53.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 08:47:16 -!- zyfwong [~zyfwong@121.8.59.164] has left #lisp 08:47:31 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-239-75.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 08:48:31 varjagg [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 08:48:47 is that for flattr like donations? 08:49:18 Fare: a good tip for naming things is to put them in a sentence. 08:50:16 URL is bad since it says nothing in an sentence.. 08:50:17 :|Where do I point my browser at to report a damn bug through which hours of my life have disappeared that I will never get back?| 08:50:33 :bug-report-address 08:50:45 :bug-report-url rather 08:51:12 current tentative value is :bug-tracker-url 08:51:40 it might not be a url. 08:52:06 przl [~przlrkt@46.231.183.162] has joined #lisp 08:52:26 anyway, naming isn't really the problem usually. 08:53:20 well it is when everyone will curse you about the name 5 years from now if you chose it wrong 08:53:43 people will curse you for many things; it isn't useful to worry about them. 08:54:01 I'm one of these cursing people, and I care about myself 08:54:58 change it in 5 years when you care, do something productive now nstead. 08:56:06 so, :homepage :mailto :bug-tracker win over :website-url :developers-email :bug-tracker-url 08:56:20 zorkmoid, when 700 different packages use it, it's harder to change 08:56:55 Fare: faulty logic, everyone uses everything. 08:57:19 i've seen various with-gensym macros ... you'd think that would be "common" ... 08:57:22 I'm adding slots to defclass system in ASDF 08:58:03 two years from now, hundreds of people will be using it. 08:58:28 mm.. well, i never used asdf for anything .. prefer plain old load files. 08:58:35 maybe representing these more or less arbitrary system attributes as slots is not the best way, after all. 08:58:49 mmm.. 08:59:01 maybe a plist? 08:59:08 H4ns, it still beats :properties where no one agrees, enforcement is impossible, and no one can automate based on it 08:59:45 zorkmoid, I'm specifically moving away from the current alist called properties (not a plist) 09:00:08 where no two people agree what to call the website/homepage/etc. 09:00:31 Fare: i don't agree - convention exists and works well for many applications, and this seems to be one. 09:00:32 Fare: pitty. 09:00:46 since this is what plists are fore. 09:01:01 H4ns, grepping through the .asd's of quicklisp, I say there is no convention and it doesn't work. 09:01:08 if you want to standardise things, you could have a checker 09:01:27 arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-ciknliwbtpvqqlqc] has joined #lisp 09:01:48 spit out warnings/errors if a nonstandard plist entry pops up.. 09:01:49 I'm not speaking against the use of plist within a given application -- but as an alleged way to loosely synchronize how people represent common data. 09:01:50 Fare: right. convention needs to be established. you seem to propose a way that i can't quite relate to your political beliefs, though. 09:02:17 how so? 09:02:34 cause right now you are introducing yet another means of specifying things that nobody uses. 09:02:50 A word for the epoch of free software and universal publishing: voluntocracy n 1. governance by those who do the work. 2. the volunteers who do the work. — Aubrey Jaffer, http://swissnet.ai.mit.edu/~jaffer/ 09:02:55 Fare: you seem like wanting to introduce lawful attributes and outlaw anything that is not a slot. 09:03:22 if you want a slot that contains properties, go create a subclass that has one and become maintainer of it 09:03:34 I want no part of the maintainership of one. 09:04:04 Fare: build systems are driving you mad. 09:04:08 yes they are 09:04:08 haha 09:04:11 I want out 09:04:14 axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-88-224.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 09:04:19 I want to release this damn thing and move on. 09:04:24 Fare: load-SYSTEM.lisp which does (load ...) :-) 09:04:43 it started two months ago fixing one last bug -- and I've rewritten the whole thing twice instead 09:04:43 zorkmoid: thank you, that was helpful! 09:05:32 zorkmoid: at ITA, our QPX project started like that--- needless to say it got out of hand. 09:05:37 -!- Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 09:05:53 15 years and 700 files later, with circular dependencies between files... ouch. 09:05:56 Fare: strange, i use it for quite big stuff .. works like a charm. 09:06:36 if you're alone, your synchronization costs are relatively low. 09:06:41 Fare: true, which is what i am... and i don't do the whole lots of file thing.. 09:07:16 -!- Keshi [~Keshi@unaffiliated/keshi] has quit [K-Lined] 09:07:32 -!- CampinSam [~user@24-176-103-21.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 09:08:58 -!- zajn [~zajn@c-67-182-61-90.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:10:06 -!- axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-88-224.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.0] 09:11:09 -!- arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-ciknliwbtpvqqlqc] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:11:28 H4ns: but to go back to telling the story in a way that fits my beliefs -- I believe in ownership. this alist called properties thing is the opposite of ownership. It's communism for metadata. No one in charge of either defining, using or enforcing the schema 09:12:26 Fare: it would be nice if one could allow additional properties explicitly, without having to change the source of the build system 09:12:33 yes 09:13:23 it would be nice if we had prototype-based OO as in Self / Javascript / Slate / etc instead of class-based OO as in CLOS. But that's not what we have here. 09:14:01 if/when I do XCVB again, I'll try replacing CLOS with something else. 09:14:26 but with ASDF, backward-compatibility says: no such thing. 09:14:31 Fare: i don't agree that the two things are necessarily interconnected. there is no need to map from system property to slots. clos has no say in this. 09:15:10 Fare: currently, system attributes are class initialization arguments, nothing else. 09:15:40 If I switch to a lisp buffer, (and have a slime-repl buffer somewhere in the background) how can I easily get a split frame with slime + my lisp file? I'm currently doing this "manually": C-x 2, (find slime-repl buffer) C-x o (to get back to my lisp file). 09:15:52 except for the inline-methods magic -- and the fact that initialize-instance can do whatever the hell it wants to its initargs. 09:15:54 -!- toekutr [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:16:31 impaktor, I hate that whole thing too but with enough emacs functions, you should be able to do it. 09:16:37 svetlyak40wt [~svetlyak4@2a02:6b8:0:40c:d9cf:3a2e:5f18:2074] has joined #lisp 09:16:46 emacs needs a better window and frame manager 09:17:27 kikoo` [~user@nocat-out.u-bordeaux.fr] has joined #lisp 09:17:39 kikoo 09:17:54 -!- kikoo` [~user@nocat-out.u-bordeaux.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:18:01 impaktor: i have f1 mapped to slime-selector, switching to the repl is f1 r for me. 09:18:15 impaktor: not quite what you're looking for, but maybe you can work from there. 09:18:58 impaktor: http://paste.lisp.org/submit 09:19:10 aem, no, http://paste.lisp.org/display/135104 09:20:08 -!- bitonic` is now known as bitonic 09:20:29 -!- svetlyak40wt [~svetlyak4@2a02:6b8:0:40c:d9cf:3a2e:5f18:2074] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:20:40 H4ns, thanks! 09:21:00 browndawg1 [~browndawg@117.214.168.139] has joined #lisp 09:22:31 H4ns, yes you can have a loosely-implemented poorman's object system with slots as a non-plist called properties for added confusion. Doesn't make it a good idea. 09:23:24 -!- browndawg [~browndawg@117.201.88.103] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:25:30 Hmm, seems like slime-selector opens the repl in full window. Is there a way to have it split? Or will I have to write an elisp function for that. 09:27:04 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-157-18.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 09:28:51 Fare: regarding build systems... I'd love to see one that helps with working on *live* image 09:29:00 Erlang has it pretty well done 09:30:16 p_l: well, asdf has been making progress in this regard because of issues with its *own* needs for hot upgrade 09:31:12 tentative8e8op [~tb@cpe-67-49-139-65.hawaii.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 09:31:37 -!- przl [~przlrkt@46.231.183.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:32:00 the define-package macro was hell to debug, but it makes it possible to do package surgery on a live system and have the software still running afterwards 09:32:07 that's impressive to me. 09:32:32 the defun* and defgeneric* macros, the when-upgrading macro, etc., also help. 09:33:01 and of course update-instance-for-redefined-class -- although these days I'm throwing away the old data, which is probably suboptimal. 09:33:33 rudi_ [~rudi@1x-193-157-251-160.uio.no] has joined #lisp 09:34:26 Fare: we have a program (an IRC bot) that is managed and updated through a SLIME running in console Emacs permanently attached to it... 09:34:30 I used to try harder to share data, until it appeared that the old data was badly interacting with the new, and that resetting or shadowing old functions basically meant that previously-loaded extensions were broken by the upgrade in general 09:34:43 in a screen? 09:34:47 that's cool 09:35:40 something like that. Hackerspace still didn't let me play with it (and let the dogs of war^Wbugs) 09:35:41 I believe that YTools has a build system designed just for that kind of live system invariant maintenance. 09:35:50 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-71-237-234-93.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:37:01 -!- Ralt [~Ralt@eup38-1-82-247-184-72.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:38:38 -!- Jasko2 [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:38:55 Jasko2 [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:42:04 p_l, note that CL itself is not designed for hot upgrade on live images of arbitrary programs, though can be used to implement such systems on top if you limit yourself to a subset with e.g. no inline function that you'll redefine unless you redefine all users. 09:43:18 Fare: I've been joking recently about CL EE, or SBCL Enterprise... which would involve low-level support for some stuff in runtime and application-level API 09:44:05 przl [~przlrkt@46.231.183.162] has joined #lisp 09:44:10 yup 09:44:27 If/when I write my lisp dialect, it will support that. 09:45:54 Fare: the thing is, I don't even plan on making it a dialect :) 09:46:25 i.e. it would be compatible with normal implementations, you'd just not get certain things 09:46:50 p_l, even better if you can get away with it 09:47:04 probably by staying on one implementation only to begin with 09:47:10 dacoda [~gerhard.h@2a02:238:f012:22:d6be:d9ff:febf:e835] has joined #lisp 09:47:22 -!- dacoda [~gerhard.h@2a02:238:f012:22:d6be:d9ff:febf:e835] has quit [Client Quit] 09:47:28 youlysses [~user@75-132-17-145.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 09:49:10 Fare: generally, my guideline for any real and sensible proposal to extend/augment CL requires: a) one public-domain (or equivalent) implementation b) similarly licensed interface/compat package that can be used to bootstrap work on compatible code in other implementations, including commercial 09:50:12 is MIT license PD enough for you? 09:50:53 p_l, I agree but for deep enough feature your (b) might be most of a CL in CL. 09:52:22 -!- jdz [~jdz@85.254.212.34] has quit [Quit: Byebye.] 09:52:27 Fare: not complete implementation, but enough so that you can load code in "reduced" state. "Most of CL in CL" would be for someone trying CLtL3 :) 09:52:41 and MIT is PD + "no warranty" clause 09:52:47 I say -- focus on (a) until you've got your semantics straight, then do (b) 09:52:48 -!- akovalenko [~user@95.72.98.198] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 09:53:54 Fare: I was thinking along the lines of (b) being "normally" named stuff, and the underlying %-named stuff being implementation extensions to support it fully :) 09:53:55 I like hygienic macros. linear objects. (possibly linear) continuations. prototypes. 09:54:08 mostly-pure style. 09:54:28 user-control on the type-system. 09:54:45 jdz [~jdz@85.254.212.34] has joined #lisp 09:55:09 any single of these is expensive to do on top of an existing CL. 09:55:20 has anyone tried Shen? 09:55:52 -!- browndawg1 [~browndawg@117.214.168.139] has left #lisp 09:55:54 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-188-123.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:56:15 browndawg [~browndawg@117.214.168.139] has joined #lisp 09:57:09 SanderM [~quassel@2001:610:180:1:a00:27ff:fe27:5268] has joined #lisp 09:57:09 akovalenko [~user@95.72.98.198] has joined #lisp 09:58:40 -!- Posterdati [~antani@host107-26-dynamic.59-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.1.3 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 09:59:30 svetlyak40wt [~svetlyak4@dhcp175-196-red3.yandex.net] has joined #lisp 09:59:48 -!- przl [~przlrkt@46.231.183.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:01:08 -!- spacefrogg^ is now known as spacefrogg 10:03:00 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 10:08:43 p_l: that almost sounds like 3.6 from Worse is Better (: 10:08:56 testtesttest [~gerhard.h@2a02:238:f012:22:d6be:d9ff:febf:e835] has joined #lisp 10:09:04 -!- testtesttest [~gerhard.h@2a02:238:f012:22:d6be:d9ff:febf:e835] has quit [Client Quit] 10:09:25 -!- Jasko2 [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:09:47 paolo_m` [~user@2-228-95-110.ip190.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 10:09:50 Jasko2 [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:10:12 -!- tentative8e8op [~tb@cpe-67-49-139-65.hawaii.res.rr.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 10:10:12 -!- quchen [~david@wthp166d.physik.uni-wuerzburg.de] has quit [*.net *.split] 10:10:12 -!- paolo_m [~user@2-228-95-110.ip190.fastwebnet.it] has quit [*.net *.split] 10:10:12 -!- shifty [~user@114-198-38-230.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [*.net *.split] 10:10:12 -!- sarcasmus 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seconds] 10:30:59 add^_ [~add^_@m83-190-167-197.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 10:31:50 elkng [~elkng@unaffiliated/elkng] has joined #lisp 10:32:17 how much memory list of 1000000000 elements will consume ? 10:32:48 <|3b|> depends on implementation and platform 10:32:50 if one use something like (setq buff (list 1 2 3 4 5 .. 1000000000)) 10:33:09 one or two bytes per one element ? 10:33:11 about 1000000000 * (size of cons cell) 10:33:12 usually 10:33:20 <|3b|> a cons is probably 8 or 16 bytes, elements stored in the list might be included in that or not depending on type of object 10:33:23 what is size of cons cell ? 10:33:28 Joreji [~thomas@87-188.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 10:34:05 <|3b|> if you need to store a large number of objects efficiently, a specialized array might be better 10:34:38 even simple vectors might be better 10:34:56 <|3b|> specialized arrays take up approximately the size of the contents + some extra for a header 10:35:23 Or you could use a lazy representation. 10:35:44 Indecipherable [~Indeciphe@41.13.0.161] has joined #lisp 10:35:47 -!- yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.169] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 10:35:50 |3b|: "size of the contents", two bytes per one entity ? 10:36:10 <|3b|> in a specialized array? depends on the type 10:36:14 morphling [~stefan@gssn-4d002a1a.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 10:36:18 <|3b|> a bit-vector uses 1 bit per element 10:36:59 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 10:37:08 elkng: lisp has automatic memory management. you are not usually exposed to the precise memory usage of your program, and it is often hard to determine how much memory individual objects consume. 10:37:09 Zhivago: "lazy representation", do you mean after this command (setq buff_3 (concat buff_1 buff_2)) and buff_3 will contain not exact data but reference to those two variables ? 10:37:09 <|3b|> an array specialized to hold (unsigned-byte 64) elements (if supported) would take 64 bits per element 10:38:01 H4ns: "you are not usually exposed to the precise memory usage", we arnt in C anymore ? 10:38:03 <|3b|> characters could be anywhere from 1 to 4 bytes per element depending on implementation 10:38:03 elkng: if you want to know how much memory is in use, use (room). you can use room's output to determine how much memory a single large structure consumes, but again, there may be errors in the numbers. it is best to a) have enough memory and b) not worry. 10:38:12 elkng: no, common lisp is not at all like c 10:38:22 elkng: I mean using a lazy data structure rather than a list. 10:38:22 H4ns: that was a pun 10:38:41 elkng: aha 10:39:30 -!- rmathews [~roshan@122.165.89.11] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:39:42 rmathews [~roshan@122.165.89.11] has joined #lisp 10:39:43 -!- Jasko2 [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:40:20 Jasko2 [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has 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10:54:02 browndawg [~browndawg@117.214.168.139] has joined #lisp 10:54:25 foreignFunction [~niksaak@94.27.88.149] has joined #lisp 10:54:34 -!- rudi_ is now known as rudi 10:57:41 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:58:15 -!- momo-reina [~user@aa20111001946f573a0f.userreverse.dion.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:59:38 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 10:59:49 newblue [~newblue@113.84.202.224] has joined #lisp 11:03:53 minion: memo for replcated: the last edition of the dragon book includes chapters about garbage collection and dynamic languages. So it's more lisp related than the first edition. 11:03:53 myx [~myx@188.233.241.150] has joined #lisp 11:03:54 Remembered. I'll tell replcated when he/she/it next speaks. 11:06:38 kmels [~kmels@frbg-4d029b3a.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 11:07:07 -!- loke_erc [~user@c-4957e555.012-14-67626717.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:07:21 momo-reina [~user@aa20111001946f573a0f.userreverse.dion.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 11:08:45 zorkmoid: Everything can be urlified! :bug-report-url "mailto:author@project.org" or :bug-report-url "http://bugzilla.project.org" or :bug-report-url "phoneto:+13335551212" or :bug-report-url "snail:USA/San+Francisco,+CA+94105/Market+Street,+3/Project+Developer" 11:10:22 -!- Jasko2 [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:10:49 Jasko2 [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:11:11 ubii [~ubii@184.21.196.19] has joined #lisp 11:11:12 -!- ubii [~ubii@184.21.196.19] has quit [Changing host] 11:11:12 ubii [~ubii@unaffiliated/ubii] has joined #lisp 11:13:03 -!- 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11:32:41 -!- zxq9 [~zxq9@FL1-119-244-167-168.okn.mesh.ad.jp] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:33:26 -!- svetlyak40wt [~svetlyak4@2a02:6b8:0:101:90a:3d03:24c9:2820] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:34:21 svetlyak40wt [~svetlyak4@dhcp175-196-red3.yandex.net] has joined #lisp 11:34:34 ogamita: oh my dear... 11:34:59 Indecipherable [~Indeciphe@41.28.244.12] has joined #lisp 11:35:43 -!- svetlyak40wt [~svetlyak4@dhcp175-196-red3.yandex.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:36:57 svetlyak40wt [~svetlyak4@dhcp175-196-red3.yandex.net] has joined #lisp 11:39:14 -!- youlysses [~user@75-132-17-145.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:39:49 -!- momo-reina [~user@aa20111001946f573a0f.userreverse.dion.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:40:37 -!- Jasko2 [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:40:54 Jasko2 [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:42:12 -!- Indecipherable [~Indeciphe@41.28.244.12] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:43:14 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@92.47.242.149] has joined #lisp 11:43:15 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@92.47.242.149] has quit [Changing host] 11:43:15 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 11:43:15 attila_lendvai1 [~attila_le@92.47.242.149] has joined #lisp 11:43:15 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Disconnected by services] 11:43:35 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 11:45:39 -!- reckler [~reckler@ppp118-208-3-243.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 11:46:15 -!- Kvaks [~kvaks@45.163.189.109.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:48:00 ogamita: then it should be uri ...hehehe 11:51:46 -!- rmathews [~roshan@122.165.89.11] has quit [Quit: ...] 11:53:43 rmathews [~roshan@122.165.89.11] has 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[~nikodemus@37-136-23-114.nat.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #lisp 13:30:37 -!- myx [~myx@188.233.241.150] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:32:44 myx [~myx@188.233.241.150] has joined #lisp 13:33:46 `fogus [~fogus@freedom.d-a-s.com] has joined #lisp 13:34:12 peterhil` [~peterhil@cs78241249.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 13:36:10 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-185-82-146.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:38:21 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-185-82-146.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:41:20 stopbit [~stopbit@12.172.121.82] has joined #lisp 13:41:24 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-185-82-146.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:42:08 francisl [~anonymous@bas3-montreal42-1242354060.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 13:42:19 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:44:45 -!- antgreen [~green@ip-64-134-184-84.public.wayport.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:45:21 -!- cdidd [~cdidd@128-72-32-186.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:47:11 -!- francisl [~anonymous@bas3-montreal42-1242354060.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: francisl] 13:49:05 -!- varjagg [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:50:37 @quote emacs.suck 13:50:53 Oh, pardon. Wrong window, wanted to send that to Lambdabot. Excuses 13:51:09 That happens when I open #lisp before /q lambdabot! ;-( 13:51:41 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@37-136-23-114.nat.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 13:51:54 lambdabot ? 13:52:09 here ? 13:52:23 przl [~przlrkt@46.231.183.162] has joined #lisp 13:53:02 adelgado [~TomSawyer@c-66-229-185-165.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:53:10 Nope. As I said, wrong window 13:53:30 Also it didn't find the quote. :-( 13:55:37 drmeister [~drmeister@166.137.111.151] has joined #lisp 13:56:14 no i mean where is lambdabot and what kind of bot is it ? 13:56:26 something for common-lisp ? 13:56:29 groovy2shoes [~cory@unaffiliated/groovebot] has joined #lisp 13:56:39 or haskell ? 13:57:52 -!- groovy2shoes [~cory@unaffiliated/groovebot] has quit [Client Quit] 13:58:44 It's a Haskell bot, yes. I usually have it open where the #lisp window is right now. 13:58:48 The power of habit got me. 13:59:49 -!- n1x [~n1x@unaffiliated/n1xnc0d3] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 14:00:20 -!- browndawg [~browndawg@117.214.168.139] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:01:17 worstadmin [~worst@174.141.213.53] has joined #lisp 14:02:04 -!- adelgado [~TomSawyer@c-66-229-185-165.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:02:36 -!- Jasko2 [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:02:50 burrows [~user@cpe-75-187-53-43.columbus.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:02:54 Jasko2 [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:03:15 Does SBCL provide a special variable (or other technique) for allowing a program to determine what platform it is running on at runtime? 14:03:32 yes 14:03:40 clhs m-t 14:03:41 machine-type: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mach_t.htm 14:03:48 Thanks. 14:04:06 you usually use reader-conditionals, though 14:05:13 Alright. 14:05:15 such #+(and linux x86-64) 14:06:52 Gotcha, I'll have to read about it. 14:07:08 clhs #+ 14:07:09 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dhq.htm 14:07:11 clhs *features* 14:07:12 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/v_featur.htm 14:07:17 Thra11 [~thrall@84.97.125.91.dyn.plus.net] has joined #lisp 14:08:14 Basically like a C #ifdef 14:08:20 right 14:08:29 Cool. 14:09:26 superflit [~superflit@187.113.215.110] has joined #lisp 14:09:58 -!- chr` [~user@148.122.202.244] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 14:10:47 #+#.(cl:if (i:have-more-powerful-ifdef) :and :or) ;; happy reading 14:12:15 adelgado [~TomSawyer@66.229.185.165] has joined #lisp 14:13:16 -!- ZombieChicken [~weechat@unaffiliated/forgottenwizard] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:16:04 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@166.137.111.151] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:17:02 -!- bitonic 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[~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:01:18 nitro_idiot [~nitro_idi@www31335u.sakura.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 15:01:23 -!- myx [~myx@188.233.241.150] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:01:58 -!- mason3 [~mason2@31.45.128.177] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:02:16 svetlyak40wt [~svetlyak4@dhcp175-196-red3.yandex.net] has joined #lisp 15:05:02 -!- Fare [fare@nat/google/x-umfvysfndjmoncab] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:05:24 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@wirelessNAT188.wireless.temple.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:05:32 -!- smithzv [~smithzv@c-71-201-59-76.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has left #lisp 15:05:47 smithzv [~smithzv@c-71-201-59-76.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:09:13 -!- segv- [~mb@dslb-088-074-073-253.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:09:16 segv-_ [~mb@dslb-088-074-073-253.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 15:09:58 adelgado [~TomSawyer@65.23.61.98.nw.nuvox.net] has joined #lisp 15:10:05 normanrichards [~normanric@rrcs-108-178-120-144.sw.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:10:14 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:10:25 findiggle [~kirkwood@50-194-56-154-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 15:10:56 -!- adelgado [~TomSawyer@65.23.61.98.nw.nuvox.net] has quit [Client Quit] 15:10:59 hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has joined #lisp 15:10:59 -!- hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has quit [Changing host] 15:10:59 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 15:11:37 -!- edgar-rft [~GOD@HSI-KBW-149-172-63-75.hsi13.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Quit: no future] 15:11:47 adelgado [~TomSawyer@65.23.61.98.nw.nuvox.net] has joined #lisp 15:15:06 natechan [~natechan@50.192.61.46] has joined #lisp 15:16:12 Fare: it's not CL, it's the implementations that are not defined so. You could make an implementation that recompiles the dependant functions when you redefine an inline function, etc. " p_l, note that CL itself is not designed for hot upgrade on live images of arbitrary programs," 15:16:38 is there anything that is or could be so designed? 15:17:34 erlang 15:17:59 hot upgrade != automagic recompilation 15:18:09 You can write a very redefinable implementation, as you can write a batch compiler for CL. 15:18:10 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 15:18:37 ogamita: you're talking about macros too? i don't know if you're allowed to recompile the functions based on redefined macros 15:18:47 hot upgrade is feature of a delivered program, automagic recompilation is feature of a development environment 15:19:08 kiuma [~kiuma@static-217-133-17-91.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 15:19:10 madnificent: yes, macros, inlines, etc. 15:19:12 constants. 15:19:35 madnificent: you're allowed. In interpreters, macro redefinition is often take into account immediately. 15:20:24 I don't remember a specification in CLHS preventing development-time or run-time redefinitions/recompilation. 15:20:44 Even defpackage defpackage is left implementation dependant, not specified to do something bad. 15:20:58 And most implementations just do the right thing. 15:21:13 Joreji [~thomas@87-188.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 15:22:13 But of course, it depends if you target a specific implementation or if you want to write a conforming program. 15:23:10 ogamita: see minimal compilation 15:24:28 -!- quchen [~david@wthp166d.physik.uni-wuerzburg.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 15:24:35 which of course doesn't mean that people would be annoyed about a cleaver compiler doing things which violate assumptions of minimal compilation during development, but it would not be strictly conformant 15:24:53 (but i have no idea what defpackage defpackage means) 15:26:00 ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.186] has joined #lisp 15:27:27 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:28:18 -!- linse [~marioooh@dyn-160-39-150-40.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Quit: zzzz] 15:29:16 bitonic [~user@dyn1223-71.wlan.ic.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 15:29:34 -!- Thra11 [~thrall@84.97.125.91.dyn.plus.net] has quit [Quit: kthxbai] 15:31:33 myx [~myx@109.195.22.154] has joined #lisp 15:34:27 interesting though 15:36:16 -!- fasta [~xchat@xs8.xs4all.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:38:03 -!- Demosthenex [~Demosthen@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:38:57 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 15:39:49 Demosthenex [~Demosthen@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 15:41:26 nikodemus: redefining a package with defpackage is implementation dependant. 15:41:59 ogamita: the options are implementation dependent, but that's not the complete picture 15:42:01 (defpackage :p1 (:use) (:export :s1)) (defpackage :p1 (:use) (:export :s2)) --> p1:s1 ? p1:s2 ? 15:42:57 ogamita: i want to say that it's not entirely blank either 15:43:05 pval [~user@80.28.71.109] has joined #lisp 15:43:05 -!- pval is now known as on` 15:44:28 -!- on` is now known as pval 15:45:15 -!- pval [~user@80.28.71.109] has quit [Client Quit] 15:45:34 setmeaway [stemearay@118.45.149.239] has joined #lisp 15:46:17 -!- xcombelle [~xcombelle@AToulouse-551-1-106-71.w92-149.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:46:37 -!- snowylike [~sn@91-67-171-156-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:47:20 ahungry [~null@99-40-10-216.lightspeed.livnmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:48:44 -!- Joreji [~thomas@87-188.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:50:56 CampinSam [~user@24-176-103-21.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has joined #lisp 15:50:57 drmeister [~drmeister@wirelessNAT188.wireless.temple.edu] has joined #lisp 15:51:16 ogamita: not implementation defined. if the definitions are in variance the results are /undefined/ 15:51:35 implementation defined > unspecified > undefined 15:52:39 undefined is actually nasal demon land, strictly speaking. unspecified is "anything, but harmless". implementation defined is just that 15:53:19 but really, defpackage variance being undefined is a bit of a laugh. should be unspecified instead 15:54:40 linse [~marioooh@dyn-160-39-150-40.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 15:54:55 so, i've loaded bordeaux-threads, which has worked greatly on this exact box, but when loading another package, i suddenly get the error 'The function bordeaux-threads:make-thread is undefined.' what could cause that? 15:56:09 -!- findiggle [~kirkwood@50-194-56-154-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:56:22 removing fasls and restarting seems to have fixed it, but i still wonder 15:56:36 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@wirelessNAT188.wireless.temple.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:56:57 -!- stopbit [~stopbit@12.172.121.82] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:57:23 -!- mcsontos [mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-cdcsjhijtckdgaai] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:58:05 -!- linse [~marioooh@dyn-160-39-150-40.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:58:17 madnificent: i've seen this problem, but alas, I could never reproduce it starting with a "clean" fasl cache. If you find a way to make it happen reliably, please let me know. 15:58:33 linse [~marioooh@dyn-160-39-150-40.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 15:58:38 _d3f [~freedo@nl2.ovpn.to] has joined #lisp 15:59:20 akovalenko: will do! (but i honestly doubt it) my guess is something with the modification dates of the fasls and possibly the filesystem not flushing. but i don't have a clue at the moment 16:02:43 add^_ [~add^_@m37-3-54-198.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 16:02:50 quchen [~david@84.170.22.58] has joined #lisp 16:04:25 findiggle [~kirkwood@50-194-56-154-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 16:05:00 gko [~user@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 16:05:08 -!- smithzv [~smithzv@c-71-201-59-76.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:05:33 -!- ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.186] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:05:36 -!- aerique [310225@xs8.xs4all.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:05:52 -!- asvil [~user@91.151.182.61] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 16:06:23 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@92.47.242.149] has joined #lisp 16:06:23 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@92.47.242.149] has quit [Changing host] 16:06:23 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 16:08:06 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@static-217-133-17-91.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:08:19 edgar-rft [~GOD@149.172.63.75] has joined #lisp 16:08:36 add^_^ [~add^_@m37-3-59-179.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 16:10:27 -!- add^_ [~add^_@m37-3-54-198.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 16:10:28 -!- add^_^ is now known as add^_ 16:10:30 madnificent: i recently got the same error, i, as usual, blame ASDF 16:11:19 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 16:12:36 -!- svetlyak40wt [~svetlyak4@dhcp175-196-red3.yandex.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:12:39 drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has joined #lisp 16:14:51 stassats`: i'm not sure. i required bordeaux-threads then asked asdf to recompile the file that failed (in the restart) and it didn't stick. that error in specific doesn't sound like it's asdf's issue. i got out of it when restarting my lisp environment, requiring bordeaux-threads (now it did compile all that was needed), checked that make-thread was in there, restarting again and loading. perhaps a special variable got 16:14:51 inbetween the threads... 16:17:08 lacking make-thread means that imp-sbcl file wasn't loaded 16:17:25 and asdf is in charge of loading 16:22:05 add^_^ [~add^_@m37-3-59-179.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 16:22:53 what file failed to compile ? 16:23:07 Straylight [~user@66-194-114-178.static.twtelecom.net] has joined #lisp 16:23:28 -!- worstadmin [~worst@174.141.213.53] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:23:30 fe[nl]ix: in my case a file of a separate project which used bordeaux-threads (intercom, but i'm sure that has verrry little to do with it) 16:23:40 s/used/uses/ 16:24:04 -!- tumba [~tumba@adsl-108-69-7-104.dsl.snantx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 16:24:37 francisl [~flavoie@199.84.162.167] has joined #lisp 16:25:37 -!- add^_ [~add^_@m37-3-59-179.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 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Please replace your old line with this line and help me take over the world of IRC.] 19:54:00 przl [~przlrkt@p54BF96F6.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 19:54:25 qptain_Nemo [~qN@89.207.216.208] has joined #lisp 19:54:46 worstadmin [~worst@174.141.213.1] has joined #lisp 19:55:08 clop [~jared@moat3.centtech.com] has joined #lisp 19:59:00 -!- [SLB] is now known as [SLB]` 20:02:16 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-239-75.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:02:50 -!- [SLB]` is now known as [SLB] 20:04:35 -!- ineiros [~itniemin@bayesianconspiracy.org] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:04:42 ineiros [~itniemin@bayesianconspiracy.org] has joined #lisp 20:04:51 skbierm1 [~sascha@p4FEA0B18.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 20:05:31 Joreji [~thomas@87-188.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 20:05:38 -!- skbierm [~sascha@p4FEA0DE2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20:06:32 -!- [SLB] is now known as [SLB]` 20:06:53 -!- [SLB]` is now known as [SLB] 20:07:07 -!- skbierm1 is now known as skbierm 20:07:53 ngz [~user@254.83.199.77.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 20:09:49 tigranes [~tigranes@static-50-53-64-180.bvtn.or.frontiernet.net] has joined #lisp 20:10:59 -!- worstadmin [~worst@174.141.213.1] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:11:30 ikki [~ikki@187.240.221.8] has joined #lisp 20:11:47 Hi! So, if I wanted to use CL for scripting in place of say bash or python, would I develop my own set of functions/macros to make it more streamlined, or are there libraries for that already? Or is the entire thing a fool's errand? 20:14:58 -!- eldariof [~CLD@188.168.242.248] has quit [] 20:15:16 -!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20:15:47 there's no inherent specified equivalent to python's os or sys modules. 20:15:48 -!- skbierm [~sascha@p4FEA0B18.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:15:50 jsfb [~jon@unaffiliated/jsfb] has joined #lisp 20:16:00 but the features to do scripting are there. 20:16:49 something like python is better integrated with the underlying OS, but a lisp utility will be generally faster, so milage varies by task and author's taste. 20:17:31 it's a great opportunity to write such a thing/investigate existing options and do a write up 20:17:47 sbcl can be used from a shebang line: #!/usr/local/bin sbcl --script 20:18:21 ehu [~ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 20:18:56 And so can CLISP, so that part is good, but the syntax of OS interface layer is rather atrocious compared to bash, for example. But I figured with a right set of wrappers/macros, it could be really nifty. 20:19:18 tigranes: sure 20:20:10 All right, so I will play around with it then, and maybe do a write up like stassats` suggests. 20:20:12 see iolib and cl-fad 20:20:18 there's CLON 20:20:35 cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has joined #lisp 20:21:39 osicat 20:21:50 although there's some overlap between osicat and iolib 20:22:57 i used to do 'real' programming in lisp and system administration scriptics in python, but lately I've been doing everything in lisp. 20:23:11 using buildapp to get a standalone binary is pretty sweet, too. 20:23:14 -!- hammond [~abner@unaffiliated/portrait] has left #lisp 20:23:22 Fade: How has it been working out? 20:23:35 well, the utilities are more robust in lisp 20:23:38 and they're faster 20:23:57 but often more work to generate because there's no inherent os or sys modules in CL. 20:24:24 Thanks for the suggestions, Fade and sykopomp, checking out those libraries. 20:25:02 -!- stassats` changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language . New: ASDF 2.27, SBCL 1.1.4, Hunchentoot 1.2.11, cl-fad 0.7.0, Yason 0.6.3 20:25:09 -!- stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-232-114.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:26:35 Indecipherable [~Indeciphe@41.27.227.80] has joined #lisp 20:26:44 stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-020-044.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 20:27:35 Fare [~fare@173-9-65-97-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 20:28:41 killerboy [~mateusz@217.17.38.43] has joined #lisp 20:30:00 -!- Indecipherable [~Indeciphe@41.27.227.80] has quit [Client Quit] 20:41:53 AeroNotix [~xeno@abok245.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 20:42:31 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:42:44 -!- tigranes [~tigranes@static-50-53-64-180.bvtn.or.frontiernet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 20:45:14 cdidd [~cdidd@95-25-237-243.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 20:46:16 axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-88-224.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:53:24 pnpuff [~dioxyrane@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 20:55:24 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p54BF96F6.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:55:44 -!- Tanami [~carnage@9ch.in] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:55:48 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@173-228-44-92.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:56:11 -!- antgreen [green@nat/redhat/x-jfsxzjfjrlsmhktb] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:56:17 przl [~przlrkt@p54BF96F6.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 20:57:00 Tanami [~carnage@9ch.in] has joined #lisp 20:58:13 -!- `fogus [~fogus@freedom.d-a-s.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:58:45 bitg [bitg@unaffiliated/bitg] has joined #lisp 21:01:46 -!- bitg [bitg@unaffiliated/bitg] has quit [] 21:03:30 -!- [SLB] is now known as [SLB]` 21:04:49 bitg1 [bitg@gateway/shell/xzibition.com/x-ubbyathhekapjgtg] has joined #lisp 21:07:29 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-71-237-234-93.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:07:44 -!- bitg1 [bitg@gateway/shell/xzibition.com/x-ubbyathhekapjgtg] has left #lisp 21:07:54 tentative8e8op [~tb@cpe-67-49-139-65.hawaii.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:08:04 edgar-rft [~GOD@HSI-KBW-149-172-63-75.hsi13.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 21:08:12 -!- AeroNotix [~xeno@abok245.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: Uploading hax.....] 21:10:16 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@rrcs-108-178-120-144.sw.biz.rr.com] has quit [] 21:12:45 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:13:01 -!- [SLB]` is now known as [SLB] 21:22:29 tcr1 [~tcr@84.72.21.32] has joined #lisp 21:24:14 -!- altm [~yo@ip225-133-15-186.ct.co.cr] has left #lisp 21:26:25 -!- zbigniew is now known as bigniew 21:27:22 -!- bigniew is now known as ps-bigniew 21:27:41 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p54BF96F6.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 21:27:59 przl [~przlrkt@p54BF96F6.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 21:28:33 -!- ngz [~user@254.83.199.77.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:28:55 -!- ps-bigniew is now known as zbigniew 21:29:00 ngz [~user@254.83.199.77.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 21:29:33 -!- browndawg [~browndawg@117.201.88.173] has left #lisp 21:32:51 Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 21:34:00 Posterdati [~antani@host107-26-dynamic.59-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 21:34:14 puchacz [~puchacz@46-65-36-47.zone16.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 21:40:33 robot-beethoven [~user@24.118.142.0] has joined #lisp 21:40:42 Denommus [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/denommus] has joined #lisp 21:40:46 hi 21:41:11 I heard that that ASDF can be used instead of make on projects of other languages. Is there a tutorial on that? 21:41:55 It can conceivably, but I don't believe anyone is actually doing it. 21:42:03 what are you trying to do? 21:42:27 nothing. There is a dude on Google+ that wants to make a "rake" for Common Lisp 21:42:34 -!- pnpuff [~dioxyrane@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has left #lisp 21:42:36 what does "rake" do? 21:42:37 but I think that ASDF already does anything that rake does 21:42:49 I don't know what rake does. 21:42:54 rake is like make, but you write everything in Ruby 21:43:37 it is used, for instance, on Ruby on Rails to call different actions on the project (like tests, database migrations, or searching for TODO's on the source code) 21:43:59 -!- Joreji [~thomas@87-188.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:44:11 yeah, asdf can operate like that 21:44:22 -!- svetlyak40wt [~svetlyak4@broadband-95-84-141-55.nationalcablenetworks.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:44:30 I don't think it's used that way much, though 21:45:12 -!- puchacz [~puchacz@46-65-36-47.zone16.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 21:46:06 svetlyak40wt [~svetlyak4@broadband-95-84-141-55.nationalcablenetworks.ru] has joined #lisp 21:46:27 well, before 2.27, asdf used to propagate all operations downward 21:46:40 so, if your operation structure didn't fit... tough 21:47:02 in 2.27, you can actually used :in-order-to to do cool stuff 21:47:03 puchacz [~puchacz@46-65-36-47.zone16.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 21:47:11 and control the dependency graph structure 21:47:52 I didn't read that much about ASDF yet. I'm just a beginner. I'm learning about CLOS right now 21:48:23 -!- Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:48:24 -!- svetlyak40wt [~svetlyak4@broadband-95-84-141-55.nationalcablenetworks.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:50:10 -!- puchacz [~puchacz@46-65-36-47.zone16.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Client Quit] 21:50:18 youlysses [~user@75-132-17-145.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 21:50:52 anyone using link farms? 21:51:06 ThomasH [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/thomash] has joined #lisp 21:51:15 -!- Quadrescence is now known as Qworkescence 21:51:19 ThomasH, old bugs of yours just closed in ASDF? 21:51:31 puchacz [~puchacz@46-65-36-47.zone16.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 21:51:36 can anyone test ASDF 2.28 with a link farm? 21:51:36 Fare: Yes, I had forgotten about it. 21:52:07 I didn't really intend to fix your bugs, but after rewriting ASDF, they were not there anymore. 21:52:08 sirdancealot1 [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 21:52:10 Fare: Thanks, btw. 21:52:21 That works for me. 21:52:49 any link farm user around? 21:53:36 forgive my ignorance... what is a link farm? 21:53:48 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:55:00 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-183-203.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:56:20 -!- puchacz [~puchacz@46-65-36-47.zone16.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:56:31 -!- mon_key [~user@unaffiliated/monkey/x-267253] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:56:31 mon_key` [~user@74-143-70-82.static.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 21:57:02 robot-beethoven, its a ..umm..a service, where you pay someone to set up as many as seemingly credible as possible websites with links to you, so your google rank rises till google finds out:> 21:57:02 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 21:57:22 normanrichards [~normanric@rrcs-108-178-120-144.sw.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:58:41 i almost made one such ...farm.... but symfony is shit...the inform7 version was much more fun, but there would have been practical issues :] 22:00:49 why does ASDF need special testing for link farms? 22:03:50 Joreji [~thomas@87-188.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 22:04:27 -!- add^_ [~add^_@m37-3-59-179.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: The Garbage Collector got me...] 22:05:34 in this context, it's the old ASDF 1 way of configuring where software is installed 22:05:50 have a directory with symlinks to all the .asd's and put it in your *central-registry* 22:07:50 do later ASDFs do something different? 22:07:50 dto [~user@pool-96-252-62-13.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:09:28 slyrus [~chatzilla@173-228-44-92.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 22:10:07 svetlyak40wt [~svetlyak4@broadband-95-84-141-55.nationalcablenetworks.ru] has joined #lisp 22:10:52 burrows [~user@cpe-75-187-53-43.columbus.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:11:15 Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-72-66-99-183.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:11:59 -!- Straylight [~user@66-194-114-178.static.twtelecom.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:12:21 ASDF 2.27 is so passé. Please use 2.28! 22:13:09 bitonic [~user@027b7a43.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 22:14:30 -!- sdemarre [~serge@109.134.155.194] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:14:42 -!- Fare changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language . New: ASDF 2.28, SBCL 1.1.4, Hunchentoot 1.2.11, cl-fad 0.7.0, Yason 0.6.3 22:15:35 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs27127210.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:16:28 huh, that was fast 22:18:29 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@rrcs-108-178-120-144.sw.biz.rr.com] has quit [] 22:18:32 Fare: i have a "link farm" 22:21:22 ought to work fine. 22:21:30 I tested manually 22:21:48 but I don't have a big one, and no automated test yet. 22:22:32 well, iolib and cffi were failing some tests because the component-pathname of a system wasn't a directory, which was asdf breaking a previously valid assumption. 22:22:53 backward compatibility is not just in building the software, but also testing it. Sigh. 22:32:48 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p54BF96F6.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 22:32:56 hydan [~udzinari@ip-89-102-13-27.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 22:34:48 francisl [~flavoie@199.84.164.114] has joined #lisp 22:37:59 in which CL package can I find thread-safe queues? 22:39:37 is lparallel the canonical place for such features? 22:39:37 Fare: I think lparallel has them, and there is also calispel 22:39:53 pileup has thread-safe heap 22:40:06 but that's not what you're after :) 22:40:30 does lparallel have thread-safe heaps? 22:41:11 sugarshark [~ole@ip-109-43-0-30.web.vodafone.de] has joined #lisp 22:42:06 -!- sugarshark [~ole@ip-109-43-0-30.web.vodafone.de] has quit [Client Quit] 22:42:43 -!- Bike [~Glossina@63-229-134-7.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:43:55 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@213.129.230.10] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:44:27 Fare: there isn't really a canonical right interthread communication model yet, so expecting a canonical library for it might be putting the cart in front of the horse 22:45:07 I can expect someone to obsess about it and provide all the communication models 22:45:11 in one library 22:45:26 Bike_ [~Glossina@63-229-134-7.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 22:45:32 looks like the lparallel guy is more obsessed. 22:45:50 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@84.72.21.32] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:46:05 Fare: all the threading libraries I know of are either thin wrappers around the really basic thread stuff (e.g. bordeaux threads) or very opinionated about what types of interthread communcation they want 22:46:42 and it looks like lparallel has FIFO queues but not priority queueus 22:47:47 just use sb-concurrency! 22:48:06 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:48:14 -!- Denommus [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/denommus] has quit [Quit: going home] 22:50:07 browndawg [~browndawg@117.201.83.128] has joined #lisp 22:51:14 calispel queues have configurable buffer sizes (sending blocks when the buffer is full) lparallel queues appear to be unbounded 22:51:49 jasom: dim says lparallel will soon have bounded queues. 22:52:02 Fare: just put a lock on it. 22:54:54 -!- qptain_Nemo [~qN@89.207.216.208] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:56:07 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:57:09 -!- svetlyak40wt [~svetlyak4@broadband-95-84-141-55.nationalcablenetworks.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:58:01 sbcl master race 22:58:04 word 22:58:09 emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 22:58:11 pers [~user@221.sub-174-233-194.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 23:01:02 -!- quchen [~david@84.170.22.58] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 23:01:02 -!- Jasko2 [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:01:03 prxq [~mommer@mnhm-590c1a2c.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 23:01:20 Jasko2 [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:02:10 ebobby [~fms@189.170.16.14] has joined #lisp 23:02:19 hello 23:06:41 drmeister [~drmeister@166.137.111.151] has joined #lisp 23:09:29 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@166.137.111.151] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:09:29 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 23:09:37 fourier [~fourier@fsf/member/fourier] has joined #lisp 23:09:43 pkhuong, works, too 23:11:00 -!- bitonic [~user@027b7a43.bb.sky.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:13:26 fe[nl]ix: why does bordeaux-threads.asd have (in-package :cl-user)? 23:13:35 drmeister [~drmeister@166.137.111.151] has joined #lisp 23:13:48 doomlord_ [~doomlod@86.171.15.248] has joined #lisp 23:14:28 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@91-157-48-10.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:14:33 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@166.137.111.151] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:17:15 drmeister [~drmeister@166.137.111.151] has joined #lisp 23:17:50 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-590c1a2c.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:20:58 seangrove [~user@c-71-202-126-17.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:22:07 -!- browndawg [~browndawg@117.201.83.128] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:22:27 *stassats`* thought really hard and figured how bordeaux-threads can manage to end up with a make-thread undefined error 23:24:01 -!- burrows [~user@cpe-75-187-53-43.columbus.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:24:09 make-thread is defined using a defmacro which expands into a DEFUN only of the symbol is not fbound, load bordeaux-threads, then load it again, but with :force t (or ,force-load-system in slime) 23:24:47 since it's already fbound, the macro will expand without a defun, and when you restart it will load the resulting fasl, which won't have make-thread 23:25:08 -!- jsfb [~jon@unaffiliated/jsfb] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:25:20 -!- emma is now known as em 23:25:50 madnificent: therep 23:26:33 tcr1 [~tcr@84-72-21-32.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 23:27:20 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@173-228-44-92.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:27:26 stassats`: ah, macroexpansion vs load -time issues. 23:29:54 pkhuong: not really that 23:30:10 Jubb [~ghost@108.28.62.61] has joined #lisp 23:30:43 -!- agumonkey [~agu@177.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:31:01 prxq [~mommer@mnhm-590c1a2c.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 23:31:15 -!- akovalenko [~user@95.72.98.198] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:31:44 and i don't see a clear way to solve it, this (unless fboundp (defun)) is supposed to add missing definitions, which could come from the files loaded before 23:31:57 akovalenko [~user@95.73.108.51] has joined #lisp 23:31:58 so just removing the fboundp check won't solve it 23:32:41 does not just having the check be in the macroexpansion work? 23:33:04 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@166.137.111.151] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:33:21 but it'll lose top-levelness 23:33:45 is the defun being toplevel important? 23:33:46 -!- androcles [~Jeff@sporkula.ss.uci.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:33:52 probably not 23:34:15 -!- stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-020-044.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 23:35:39 it's only used for stubs, so should be alright 23:35:56 -!- Bike_ is now known as Bike 23:36:12 -!- answer_42 [~answer_42@gateway/tor-sasl/answer42/x-66983568] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:39:50 Qworkescence: poke? Did you manage to get hold of John regarding tpd2? 23:40:42 mathrick, yes, he asked if i wanted to take the project over 23:40:46 groovy2shoes [~cory@unaffiliated/groovebot] has joined #lisp 23:41:12 Qworkescence: ah, do you? 23:41:16 -!- ngz [~user@254.83.199.77.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:41:24 i'm not sure; i haven't responded 23:42:05 Qworkescence: also what about the other question regarding his IRC presence? I'd like to use tpd2, but given its rather scant documentation, having someone to poke, at least at first, would be more than just a little handy 23:42:38 stassats: the magic has to happen in an eval-when 23:42:48 so it happens at load-time, too 23:43:02 -!- adelgado [~TomSawyer@65.23.61.98.nw.nuvox.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:43:03 -!- francisl [~flavoie@199.84.164.114] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 23:43:20 -!- groovy2shoes [~cory@unaffiliated/groovebot] has quit [Client Quit] 23:43:47 i don't think it needs eval-when 23:45:13 I use eval-when too for autoloading asdf, or debug files, etc. 23:45:22 see e.g. asdf-debug 23:45:58 -!- Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:46:28 it doesn't need to be present during compile-file 23:47:32 -!- segv-_ [~mb@dslb-088-074-073-253.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:49:34 drmeister [~drmeister@71.185.82.146] has joined #lisp 23:49:46 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:50:11 -!- natechan [~natechan@50.192.61.46] has quit [Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]] 23:50:18 -!- rdqfdx [~rdqfdx@78.90.88.244] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:51:06 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@84-72-21-32.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:52:09 sirdancealot7 [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 23:53:17 mathrick, he didn't comment about that 23:53:47 pyx [~pyx@d24-141-100-35.home.cgocable.net] has joined #lisp 23:54:02 mathrick, be right back 23:54:02 -!- Jasko2 [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:54:08 -!- Qworkescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:54:20 Jasko2 [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:57:58 peterhil [~peterhil@91-157-48-10.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 23:58:02 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.99.220] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:58:43 tingfod [~komorris@98.156.13.154] has joined #lisp 23:59:18 -!- tingfod [~komorris@98.156.13.154] has quit [Client Quit] 23:59:48 -!- ehu [~ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]