00:02:16 ah, damn you apple. *clang* doesn't ;) 00:04:36 I meant glibc up there, of course. 00:05:46 -!- smazga [~acrid@64.55.45.194] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.1.1] 00:08:20 -!- cfy [~ilisp@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 00:09:57 -!- findiggle [~kirkwood@173-10-106-172-BusName-Washington.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:10:36 -!- gf3 [~gf3@unaffiliated/gf3] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 00:11:09 Punting to a slow and correct complex float mult/div has been on my queue for a while, but if clang can get away with the same quick and mostly correct code sequences, this issue is gonna get pushed way back. 00:13:25 Guest35577 [~ilisp@220.191.186.26] has joined #lisp 00:14:05 gf3 [~gf3@unaffiliated/gf3] has joined #lisp 00:14:45 -!- Guest35577 [~ilisp@220.191.186.26] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:17:50 cfy` [~ilisp@220.191.186.26] has joined #lisp 00:23:14 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 00:27:58 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 00:28:48 -!- francisl [~anonymous@bas3-montreal42-1242353936.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: francisl] 00:29:56 -!- karupanerura [~karupaner@www5325uf.sakura.ne.jp] has quit [Excess Flood] 00:30:04 does anyone have a cmucl from last year? 00:30:07 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f75774f.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 00:30:11 does it have asdf? Which version? 00:30:56 karupanerura [~karupaner@www5325uf.sakura.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 00:31:11 youlysses [~user@75-132-17-145.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 00:31:29 worstadmin [~worst@174.141.213.33] has joined #lisp 00:32:07 krl [~krl@rymdkoloni.se] has joined #lisp 00:35:56 -!- axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-88-224.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:37:02 -!- leoncamel [~leoncamel@124.126.222.38] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:39:09 axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-88-224.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:39:55 kaiblocks [~kai@74-131-144-122.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 00:39:55 -!- cfy` is now known as cfy 00:39:56 -!- cfy [~ilisp@220.191.186.26] has quit [Changing host] 00:39:56 cfy [~ilisp@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 00:40:07 -!- edgar-rft [~GOD@HSI-KBW-149-172-63-75.hsi13.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Quit: bleeding] 00:43:22 -!- agumonkey [~agu@177.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 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[~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:29:32 tcr [~tcr@77-56-40-229.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 01:29:47 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 01:35:11 chameco [~samuel@10.sub-70-215-13.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 01:35:17 -!- chameco [~samuel@10.sub-70-215-13.myvzw.com] has quit [Client Quit] 01:35:49 chameco [~samuel@10.sub-70-215-13.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 01:35:50 -!- chameco [~samuel@10.sub-70-215-13.myvzw.com] has quit [Client Quit] 01:35:56 tensorpudding [~tensorpud@99.148.202.176] has joined #lisp 01:36:17 chameco [~samuel@10.sub-70-215-13.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 01:37:04 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 01:37:35 -!- Juanito-Jons [~jreynoso@187.240.179.197] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:38:05 seerhut [~seerhut@121.197.1.189] has joined #lisp 01:41:46 -!- axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-88-224.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:42:24 axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-88-224.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:42:44 -!- brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-142-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:43:15 (loop :for x :being :each :array-element :of xs ...) 01:43:31 cfy` [~ilisp@220.191.186.26] has joined #lisp 01:44:36 -!- DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:45:54 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:49:04 przl_ [~przlrkt@p54BF950B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 01:50:38 cfy`` [~ilisp@220.191.186.26] has joined #lisp 01:52:15 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p54BF9635.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:52:25 -!- cfy` [~ilisp@220.191.186.26] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 01:52:25 -!- _veer [~veer@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:52:47 _veer [~veer@pool-173-65-234-164.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:52:47 -!- _veer [~veer@pool-173-65-234-164.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 01:52:47 _veer [~veer@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 01:53:42 " ...that unbridled, unbounded-depth recursion is a bug in 01:53:42 your program that should be fixed by using a more 01:53:42 appropriate algorithm, not by complaining about the 01:53:42 lack of this optimization." 01:53:44 :) 01:54:12 -!- axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-88-224.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:54:56 DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has joined #lisp 01:55:01 (from ftp://ftp.ai.sri.com/pub/mailing-lists/slug/901231/msg00048.html ) 01:57:00 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:59:47 mindcruzer [~mindcruze@149.255.33.155] has joined #lisp 02:00:58 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 02:01:17 nice 02:02:07 leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.66] has joined #lisp 02:08:48 -!- cfy`` [~ilisp@220.191.186.26] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 02:10:24 Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 02:11:02 -!- mindcruzer [~mindcruze@149.255.33.155] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:11:16 francisl [~anonymous@bas3-montreal42-1242353936.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 02:12:33 tali713 [~user@c-75-72-193-140.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:14:31 -!- youlysses [~user@75-132-17-145.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:15:26 LiamH [~none@96.231.218.61] has joined #lisp 02:17:08 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Excess Flood] 02:18:37 Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 02:21:10 bitonic [~user@b0fc070e.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 02:21:37 dnolen [~user@cpe-74-64-61-245.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:21:42 int3__ [~int3__@vlan409-164.subnet-248.amherst.edu] has joined #lisp 02:22:12 how do I check whether a symbol is bound to a function in Clisp? 02:22:32 int3__: fboundp 02:22:40 Bike: thanks! 02:23:09 -!- urandom__ [~user@ip-37-24-113-96.unitymediagroup.de] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 02:26:16 int3__, note that only works for globally bound functions 02:26:36 (flet ((f (x) (* x x))) (fboundp 'f)) will return NIL 02:26:45 it is a standard function though, so you're not limited to clisp with it. 02:30:18 Qworkescence: oh.. is there something that works with flet, then? 02:30:48 -!- Joreji [~thomas@84-182.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:31:03 int3__, no 02:31:42 BountyX [~andrew@76.14.65.184] has joined #lisp 02:32:07 jynnantonix [~textual@140.247.0.98] has joined #lisp 02:32:17 okay, thanks! I suppose I could just try and call it, and recover from the error if it's not a function. 02:32:26 what exactly are you doing? 02:32:42 DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@110.151.104.145] has joined #lisp 02:34:12 Bike: trying to work through the first chapter of LiSP, but implementing my scheme interpreter in Clisp instead of in Scheme (which is what the book uses) 02:34:31 there's this procedure-p function that they use 02:35:10 I don't think Scheme has a "procedure-p". Is it not implemented there? 02:35:34 Bike: oops, sorry, it's `procedure?`, not procedure-p 02:35:35 scheme has "procedure?" 02:35:47 oh, well then. 02:35:51 int3__, if you want to check if a value is a function, then "function" 02:35:54 functionp ** 02:36:10 yeah, that's what i was thinking. fboundp checks for a binding, not if a value is a function. 02:36:12 seerhut_ [~seerhut@121.197.1.189] has joined #lisp 02:36:33 int3__, the difference between fboundp and functionp is that fboundp tells you if some name corresponds to some function. functionp checks if some value is a function 02:37:38 Qworkescence: ah, I've got it now. thanks! 02:37:55 in other words, "fboundp" asks "have a defined a function with this particular name before?" 02:38:03 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:39:37 -!- seerhut [~seerhut@121.197.1.189] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:40:15 -!- kaiblocks [~kai@74-131-144-122.dhcp.insightbb.com] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 02:40:31 yeah... so for globally-defined functions, we have (fboundp 'foo) <=> (functionp '#foo), right? 02:40:55 adelgado [~TomSawyer@c-66-229-185-165.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:41:18 int3__, #'foo 02:41:25 yes 02:41:58 oops yeah that was a typo. sounds good, thanks again 02:42:09 -!- BountyX [~andrew@76.14.65.184] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:42:13 int3__, you might consider using (function foo) instead of #'foo 02:42:18 it's longer but perhaps less confusing 02:42:34 (function foo) might be read "the function named 'foo'" 02:43:40 mm got it 02:47:24 linse [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1177917310.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 02:52:10 Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 02:55:55 -!- bitonic [~user@b0fc070e.bb.sky.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:56:17 whitedawg [~whitedawg@122.179.47.100] has joined #lisp 02:59:31 -!- Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-72-66-99-183.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host 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Strigoides [~owen@60-234-213-126.bitstream.orcon.net.nz] has quit [Quit: leaving] 04:23:21 Strigoides [~owen@60-234-213-126.bitstream.orcon.net.nz] has joined #lisp 04:25:08 BountyX [~andrew@76.14.65.184] has joined #lisp 04:27:34 Indecipherable [~Indeciphe@41.30.224.79] has joined #lisp 04:28:22 brandonz [~brandon@199-188-193-145.PUBLIC.monkeybrains.net] has joined #lisp 04:29:41 -!- _veer is now known as lolsuper_ 04:32:09 -!- kofno [~kofno@cpe-24-165-210-251.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:35:02 elkng [~elkng@unaffiliated/elkng] has joined #lisp 04:35:10 can someone expla in that code (let ((x (list 1 2 3))) (setcdr (lastcdr x) x) x) ? 04:35:24 Fare: cmucl 20b (20B Unicode) has asdf 2.008 04:36:02 elkng: we cannot, it's not standard CL. 04:36:03 "(let ((x (list 1 2 3))) (setcdr (lastcdr x) x) x)" 04:36:19 Perhaps you'd care to define setcdr? 04:36:22 and lastcdr? 04:36:46 This is not even standard scheme, so I cannot even advise you to go to #scheme. 04:36:56 Keshi [~Keshi@unaffiliated/keshi] has joined #lisp 04:37:16 -!- Indecipherable [~Indeciphe@41.30.224.79] has quit [Quit: used jmIrc] 04:37:29 elkng: do you maybe mean (setf (last x) x)? 04:37:44 last is not an accessor. 04:37:53 And you cannot define (setf cl:last). 04:37:59 IIRC. 04:38:01 oh, yes, oops. 04:38:16 But something like that. 04:38:32 Yes, you could shadow cl:last, and define your own with (setf last). 04:38:51 pjb: thanks! 04:39:13 I would guess it makes the list into #1=(1 2 3 . #1#) 04:39:21 unhappily, I couldn't manage to upgrade cmucl from anything older than 2.018. 04:39:35 -!- sirdancealot7 [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:39:44 I get weird low-level failures from the guts of PCL when I try with ASDF 2.017 04:39:54 tali713 [~user@c-75-72-193-140.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:39:56 Indecipherable [~Indeciphe@41.30.224.79] has joined #lisp 04:40:05 -!- tali713 [~user@c-75-72-193-140.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:40:15 tali713 [~user@c-75-72-193-140.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:40:51 as for clisp... upgrade is a disaster and I'll just punt. 04:41:26 What about just renaming the old asdf package and loading the new one? 04:41:48 -!- breakds [~breakds@ppp-70-226-163-93.dsl.mdsnwi.ameritech.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 04:42:17 Are there any CL implementations that track source code location through macro transformations? 04:42:45 not that I know of -- that wouldn't work very well on symbols, either 04:43:01 unless EQ is made expensive on symbols 04:43:25 drmeister: nope. But you can compile clisp with an option that adds a slot to cons cells, and use it to record the source location of each cons cells read from some source. 04:43:50 or just have an EQ-hash-table with your cons cells. 04:43:57 Fare: what symbol? I do that routinely, when I need to reload a package after modifications, while developping. 04:44:07 Fare: oh, you mean for the sources. 04:44:10 -!- rmathews [~roshan@122.164.208.109] has quit [Quit: ...] 04:44:11 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:44:20 Well, for symbols you could add a list on the plist. 04:44:32 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:44:38 pjb: Does clisp do that to track the original source that gets transformed or the source of the macros doing the transforming (harder right?) or both? 04:44:47 should I care if some implementations are not able to hot-upgrade from old versions of ASDF? 04:44:51 probably not. 04:44:54 No it does not. I told you how you could patch clisp to do it. 04:45:25 drmeister, if you want syntax-case, there's Scheme. 04:45:25 -!- Indecipherable [~Indeciphe@41.30.224.79] has quit [Quit: used jmIrc] 04:45:26 Fare: the problem is that they are still the current version of most linux distributions. 04:45:35 pjb: yup 04:46:08 I could try to punt if the version is too old... meh. 04:46:18 Also, people don't necessarily use recent linux distributions either. 04:46:30 with a per-implementation punt version. 04:46:40 But again, I fail to see the problem with (rename-package :asdf :asdf-old) (load "new-asdf.lisp") 04:47:02 kofno [~kofno@cpe-24-165-210-251.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:47:15 followed by a (delete-package :asdf-old) if everything went well, or a (rename-package :asdf-old :asdf) if not. 04:48:21 Fare: Syntax-case is for hygienic macros right? If so then no - hygienic macros are not my bag. 04:48:46 -!- jynnantonix [~textual@140.247.0.98] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com] 04:51:26 Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 04:51:31 noobler [~chris@216-58-63-212.cpe.distributel.net] has joined #lisp 04:53:08 am just picking up SICP for first time... can somebody please explain to me why "(length (cons 1 (cons 2 nil)))" does not work? 04:54:08 It works perfectly. 04:54:13 (length (cons 1 (cons 2 nil))) => 2 04:54:20 Unless you try that in scheme. 04:54:26 But here we work with Common Lisp. 04:54:31 #lisp vs. #scheme. 04:54:52 does that not work in scheme? 04:54:58 Now, in r5rs scheme, nil is just a symbol like any other. The end-of-list object is (). 04:55:05 oh, right. 04:55:16 tali713` [~user@c-75-72-193-140.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:55:20 Bike: it used to work, in r4rs or before I believe, but not in r5rs and ulterior. 04:55:30 oh ok... i am using scm. was assuming it would work in scheme because SICP 2 is about scheme 04:55:33 noobler: so you can Common-Lispify your scheme by (define nil '()) 04:55:37 is nil distinguished in scheme? 04:55:45 From? 04:55:48 noobler: you are wrong, sicp is not about scheme. 04:55:55 noobler: It might be an older version of scheme. 04:55:58 noobler: it's about structure and interpretation of computer programs. 04:56:06 Zhivago: Like, as a constant. I know there's #t and #f and (). 04:56:10 noobler: it just happens to use (an old) scheme for its examples. 04:56:24 Ah. I believe it is. 04:56:30 true 04:56:34 I don't think that you can rebind it. 04:56:53 Sorry, I'm thinking of (). 04:57:01 noobler: people have been doing sicp exercises in all kinds of languages, notably in CL and including in C++ (the masochists). 04:57:09 hm, no nil in the index. 04:57:20 -!- tali713 [~user@c-75-72-193-140.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 04:57:47 i see... btw can you recommend a good interpreter to use with SICP? i don't much like scm 04:58:30 you should ask in #scheme. 04:58:42 i don't mind using common lisp 04:58:47 i've just been at it for a week or so 04:59:06 -!- francisl [~anonymous@bas3-montreal42-1242353936.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: francisl] 04:59:32 They're very different languages, it won't be a trivial adjustment. 04:59:36 But sbcl and ccl are pretty good. 04:59:55 thanks for the suggestion 05:00:11 -!- kofno [~kofno@cpe-24-165-210-251.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:00:46 drmeister, syntax-case also handles source location 05:01:22 -!- [SLB] is now known as [SLB]` 05:01:28 -!- noobler [~chris@216-58-63-212.cpe.distributel.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:01:28 -!- My_Hearing [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:01:31 rdqfdx [~rdqfdx@78.90.88.244] has joined #lisp 05:01:31 -!- rdqfdx [~rdqfdx@78.90.88.244] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:01:56 rdqfdx [~rdqfdx@78.90.88.244] has joined #lisp 05:02:02 Fare: Thanks, I'm reading a paper on it. 05:02:08 My_Hearing [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 05:03:33 kofno [~kofno@cpe-24-165-210-251.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 05:06:12 Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 05:06:36 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-187-57.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 05:08:01 -!- kofno [~kofno@cpe-24-165-210-251.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:08:02 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@50-196-148-102-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 05:08:24 kpreid [~kpreid@50-196-148-102-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 05:10:13 groovy2shoes [~cory@unaffiliated/groovebot] has joined #lisp 05:10:22 -!- tali713` [~user@c-75-72-193-140.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 05:12:03 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 05:12:32 -!- Bike [~Glossina@63-229-134-7.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 05:14:17 Bike [~Glossina@63-229-134-7.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 05:14:41 rmathews [~roshan@122.165.89.11] has joined #lisp 05:14:41 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:15:02 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:17:00 -!- adelgado [~TomSawyer@c-66-229-185-165.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:20:31 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-lidsqvjsgqgmqyya] has joined #lisp 05:20:31 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-lidsqvjsgqgmqyya] has quit [Changing host] 05:20:31 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 05:25:14 -!- Fare [fare@nat/google/x-dkncqlguzwzvdrsq] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 05:26:50 -!- bananagram [~bot@c-98-198-236-112.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 05:32:53 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-187-57.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 05:35:15 rxc_ [~rxc@76-10-162-221.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 05:36:19 ltlJohn [~grigoriad@83-56-20.netrun.cytanet.com.cy] has joined #lisp 05:36:34 -!- rxc [~rxc@69-196-167-5.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:37:06 -!- vsync [~vsync@wsip-98-175-216-162.ri.ri.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:38:25 kofno [~kofno@cpe-24-165-210-251.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 05:39:20 alexandria guys, i just mailed a patch 05:39:31 breakds [~breakds@ppp-70-226-163-93.dsl.mdsnwi.ameritech.net] has joined #lisp 05:40:14 Fare [~fare@173-9-65-97-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 05:44:55 Quadrescence: you mean Alexandria the second largest city in Egypt ? 05:46:44 yes 05:47:37 -!- DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in] 05:47:46 -!- yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.169] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 05:48:54 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@1.129.162.166] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 05:50:34 what is 'the' logging library for CL? 05:50:43 tali713 [~user@c-76-17-236-129.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:50:44 -!- ahungry [~null@99-40-10-216.lightspeed.livnmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 05:50:47 DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has joined #lisp 05:52:07 cl-log and log4cl ? 05:52:34 nardbard [~nardbard@li292-124.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 05:52:42 http://cliki.net/logging 05:53:31 sure, that's 2 libs already and a list of 7 more 05:53:46 -!- groovy2shoes [~cory@unaffiliated/groovebot] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 05:53:47 I can google. What is actually usable? 05:54:26 log4cl actually mentions quicklisp, so maybe it is not abandoned... 05:54:32 freiksenet: if you've used log4j type stuff before log4cl will be familiar 05:55:15 -!- nardbard [~nardbard@li292-124.members.linode.com] has left #lisp 05:55:59 -!- Jubb [~ghost@pool-108-28-62-61.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:55:59 jasom: yeah, looks usable 05:56:46 freiksenet: I've used cl-log and played around with log5; I'm guessing from names that log5 and logv are related? 05:57:42 I have used CL-LOG and it works well, except I would have liked things like log rotation and management 05:58:22 How are quoted symbols and conses stored in compiled files? Currently I intern strings and make calls to CONS to build symbols and conses within the code wherever quoted symbols and lists appear. Is that they way its done? 05:59:17 drmeister, that depends on the implementation 06:00:02 drmeister: there's the whole coalescence business. 06:00:38 -!- dnolen [~user@cpe-74-64-61-245.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:00:57 Bike: coalescence - got it - thats in the CLHS under compilation. 06:01:27 http://memegenerator.net/instance/34019959 06:01:30 drmeister: of course that's pretty optional. 06:01:34 vsync [~vsync@wsip-98-175-216-162.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 06:01:36 sw2wolf [~czsq888@171.212.201.184] has joined #lisp 06:01:44 drmeister: I think 3.2.4 is the main section you'll want to know. 06:02:57 -!- BountyX [~andrew@76.14.65.184] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:03:27 -!- dabd_ [~dabd@a95-93-205-168.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 06:03:42 -!- ltlJohn [~grigoriad@83-56-20.netrun.cytanet.com.cy] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 06:03:43 nardbard [~nardbard@li292-124.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 06:04:22 -!- Thra11 [~thrall@87.115.62.99] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 06:04:39 Bike: My issue is that for symbols - taking the string name and interning it will construct the symbol and produce a reference to it but it seems like a slow way to do it. Especially if I put the quoted symbol in a loop. It's going to intern it again and again and again. 06:05:15 -!- b1rkh0ff [~b1rkh0ff@31.176.168.75] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:05:58 On the other hand, I could intern it once in a thunk and link it to wherever it is used in the compiled file when it loads. That doesn't work for conses though. 06:06:03 b1rkh0ff [~b1rkh0ff@31.176.156.222] has joined #lisp 06:06:32 drmeister: You could put a thing of all symbols in the file at the top of the fasl, intern them all at once when starting load, and then just have hashed references of some kind where the symbol would appear in the file. If that's actually a speed problem. 06:07:10 -!- sambio [~sambio@190.57.227.109] has quit [] 06:07:23 drmeister: If you want to see how sbcl does it it's in code/fop.lisp, I think. (just grep "symbol" - the "define-fop" macro defines an opcode for sbcl's fasls) 06:07:54 -!- nardbard [~nardbard@li292-124.members.linode.com] has left #lisp 06:08:21 drmeister: interning happens at read-time. 06:09:23 Bike: That sounds like a good way to deal with symbols. I can't do it with quoted lists though right? Because if put a quoted list in a loop it could be modified and the second time through the loop it will not be the same quoted list. 06:09:34 if you reconstruct quoted data each time they're evaluated, that's not CL. 06:09:39 Yeah, what? 06:09:48 I'm not even sure what you mean. 06:10:02 pkhuong: read-time is when the compiled file is read right - rather than evaluate-time. 06:10:32 wws [~billstcla@p-68-237-142-192.dsl1.rtr.chat.fpma.frpt.net] has joined #lisp 06:10:46 Aren't you concerned here with loading-a-fasl-time? 06:11:14 yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.169] has joined #lisp 06:11:38 -!- linse [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1177917310.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: zzzz] 06:11:53 Yes, loading-a-fasl-time. 06:13:42 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:14:01 skbierm [~sascha@p4FEA0D99.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 06:14:31 pkhuong: I didn't know that. Reconstructing quoted data each time its evaluated is wrong? I'll try and come up with an example where creating quoted data at fasl-load time would cause problems. 06:15:44 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:16:02 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:16:32 -!- vsync [~vsync@wsip-98-175-216-162.ri.ri.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 06:16:40 drmeister: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/03_bdd.htm I think. 06:21:31 Ok, I see what's going on. Here's my example: http://pastebin.com/eBkbqqHG - it didn't do what I expected. 06:21:32 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 06:22:08 Altering literal data is undefined... also a bad idea... 06:22:11 pkhuong: You speak truth, the quoted list was constructed at load time. 06:22:25 Bike: I see that now. 06:23:02 Bike: I saw that before as well - it's a contrived example. 06:23:13 "The consequences are undefined if literal objects (including quoted objects) are destructively modified." 06:23:22 linse [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1177917310.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 06:23:26 -!- toekutr [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:23:48 toekutr [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 06:24:22 drmeister: most implementation stores the fasl as sexp files! 06:24:23 Bike: Now I understand why the specification says that. It's to allow implementations to create these quoted objects once when the fasl file is loaded. Maybe there are other reasons. 06:24:39 drmeister: try C-x C-f file.fas RET on a clisp fas file for example. 06:25:04 pjb: Seriously? So they are compiled on the fly? Why call it a fasl file at all? 06:25:27 sexps are data, not necessarily code to be compiled 06:25:34 No, they are compiled by compile-file. But there's no reason why compile-file cannot use sexps to store the binaries. 06:25:45 drmeister: I don't know what "most implementation" he means... sbcl at least uses a serial instruction format. 06:25:52 of course there's no reason you couldn't use sexps. 06:26:32 I see, of course sexps could be used. I use sexps to serialize complex datastructures and send them between processors in OpenMPI. 06:26:34 drmeister: but being in sexps doesn't mean it's not compiled. you could write out native assembly in a sexp format, that sort of thing. 06:27:23 pjb: Thank you for that tidbit. I'll take a look at the clisp fasl files. 06:27:37 I am kind of curious how clisp's #y works. didn't see anything in the docs. 06:27:56 drmeister: the fundamental reason is that recreating quoted objects every time the quote form is evaluated would destroy algorithmic efficiency. 06:28:07 Bike, what is #y? 06:28:15 I'm using LLVM bitcode files, they are compressed virtual machine assembly code. I can disassemble them into a human readable format and generate control-flow-graphs of functions. 06:28:19 Quadrescence: as i understand, it's a reader macro clisp uses for compiled functions. 06:28:31 or maybe just closures, I don't know. 06:28:32 Bike, oh yeah, i think i've seen that before 06:28:33 Bike: it's platform-specific bytecode. 06:28:50 ah. 06:29:40 pkhuong: That's what I was worried about. Actually what is "algorithmic efficiency"? 06:29:46 #y is a reader macro that let clisp load fas files. 06:30:10 drmeister: imagine if when looping in some arithmetic function you had to allocate all the numbers anew each time through. 06:30:25 pkhuong: Does that just mean - you'll spend too much time regenerating the same static data structure over and over again? 06:30:40 Using it randomly leads to sigsegv. 06:30:41 Ok, I've got it. 06:30:55 drmeister: something that should take constant time is now linear in the size of the quoted data. 06:31:08 pjb, sigsegv must be an okay thing to do. C programmers do it all the time 06:31:39 answer_42 [~answer_42@gateway/tor-sasl/answer42/x-66983568] has joined #lisp 06:35:22 -!- rmathews [~roshan@122.165.89.11] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 06:37:06 agumonkey [~agu@177.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 06:37:31 -!- Keshi [~Keshi@unaffiliated/keshi] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 06:37:42 sdemarre [~serge@109.134.128.207] has joined #lisp 06:38:33 Ok, so every quoted object in the fasl file should be created once and then referred to from then on anywhere in the fasl file that uses it. 06:40:26 Think of it like string literal consolidation in C. 06:40:28 -!- breakds [~breakds@ppp-70-226-163-93.dsl.mdsnwi.ameritech.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 06:40:31 drmeister: no, it should not 06:40:37 It might happen if the compiler feels like it. 06:40:47 -!- ubii_ is now known as ubii 06:40:52 Don't depend on it, and don't go around mutating them. 06:41:14 it's funny to see LispWork's string literal consolidation in core dumps (the erroneous kind, not image dumps) 06:42:27 ehu [~ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 06:42:31 stassats: Now I'm confused again, why can't I do that? 06:42:39 drmeister: you can do that 06:43:03 stassats: Oh, ok. What were you referring to when you said "no, it should not". 06:43:33 to your "should be created once" 06:44:10 stassats: So it should be created more than once or not at all and represented some other way? 06:44:11 the idea being if you have '(1 2) in one place and '(1 2) farther down, it's ok for those not to be eql, and it's ok for those to be eql. 06:44:39 drmeister: neither 06:44:48 but '(1 2) definitely shouldn't compile to (list 1 2). 06:45:03 good way of putting it. 06:45:26 the same goes for other literal data, by the way, like (load-time-value (make-some-struct ...)) or whatever 06:45:40 Ho-boy. I think I'll go read the hyperspec a few more times. 06:45:53 rmathews [~roshan@122.165.89.11] has joined #lisp 06:46:38 BountyX [~andrew@76.14.65.229] has joined #lisp 06:46:41 pkhuong: Why should '(1 2) not compile to (list 1 2)? 06:46:52 drmeister, what does LIST mean? 06:46:53 for the reasons he already said 06:46:58 Because that would be silly. 06:47:18 Perhaps "ought not be" would be clearer. 06:47:25 drmeister, when would (list 1 2) construct the list (1 2) ? 06:47:37 every-time! 06:47:48 (let (a) (loop (setq a '(1 2)) (unless (eql a a) (return)))) should be an infinite loop 06:47:59 wait, that was dumb. well, hopefully you get the idea... 06:48:09 a, old-a. 06:48:24 stassats`, I propose (eval-when (:every-time) ) 06:50:06 -!- jsfb [~jon@unaffiliated/jsfb] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 06:51:17 clhs 3.1.2.1.3 06:51:17 Self-Evaluating Objects: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_abac.htm 06:51:36 might be clearer than "quote object => object; The quote special operator just returns object." 06:52:20 to me it seems lisp is one of the very few languages today that got stuff like object literals and extending syntax for literal objects [mostly] right 06:52:26 and same, in CLHS, means eql (unless specified otherwise). 06:52:29 -!- techlife [techlife@27.213.62.29] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:53:00 Ok, I'm going to sleep on it. It'll make more sense in the morning. 06:53:59 mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.96.129] has joined #lisp 06:54:22 I made a log of this discussion - I'll read the hyperspec and this discussion again. I appreciate the time everyone is putting into educating me. Thank you. 06:54:41 techlife [techlife@27.213.62.29] has joined #lisp 06:54:53 pkhuong, how does (quote (1 2)) compare to (load-time-value (list 1 2)) 06:55:09 you can modify the latter, no? 06:55:25 try (load-time-value (list 1 2) t) 06:55:51 oops, i meant to type the t 06:56:10 mm, it would be interesting if they weren't the same, then 06:56:19 -!- Demosthenex [~Demosthen@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:56:40 load-time-value is one of the last three special forms that I have yet to add to my compiler. 06:57:44 Demosthenex [~Demosthen@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 06:57:51 Quadrescence: I'm not sure what happens re coalescing with compile-file. 06:58:16 " If t, the result is a read-only quantity that can, if appropriate to the implementation, be copied into read-only space and/or coalesced with similar constant objects from other programs. " 06:58:22 so that's the same as with quote, right? 07:01:52 Ok, it's a good day - I finally got CLOS to compile and the bitcode file to load and link into my CL environment. I now have generic functions. 07:01:57 Bike: it's pretty clear for COMPILE. Same as a literal object in the code. Not so much for COMPILE-FILE. 07:02:39 Bike: I implemented (setf XXX) function names today. 07:02:41 ah, tricky... 07:03:02 snowylike [~sn@91-67-171-156-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 07:03:22 Bike: Thanks for your help on that. 07:03:35 glad it works 07:04:06 -!- CampinSam [~user@24-176-103-21.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:05:42 pkhuong: it seems to be pretty clear for both 07:05:53 -!- przl_ [~przlrkt@p54BF950B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:07:03 Thra11 [~thrall@87.115.62.99] has joined #lisp 07:07:21 Ah "The constraints on literal objects described in this section apply only to compile-file; eval and compile do not copy or coalesce constants." clear enough (: 07:07:41 svetlyak40wt [~svetlyak4@dhcp175-196-red3.yandex.net] has joined #lisp 07:09:01 -!- sw2wolf [~czsq888@171.212.201.184] has left #lisp 07:09:34 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-239-75.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 07:10:15 zolk3ri [~Zol1ka@unaffiliated/zolk3ri] has joined #lisp 07:10:25 The coalescing bit worries me. It means that stuff like (l-t-v (make-symbol "FOO") #| get a location marker |# t) doesn't work... same for (l-t-v (list nil) t), etc. 07:10:45 -!- DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:14:13 don't T? 07:15:34 or use GENSYM or something? 07:15:36 stassats`: and get suboptimal code. 07:15:55 get a location marker? 07:15:57 stassats`: gensym is worse: it may or may not work. 07:16:03 -!- sdemarre [~serge@109.134.128.207] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 07:16:41 -!- yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.169] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:16:53 -!- rmathews [~roshan@122.165.89.11] has quit [Quit: ...] 07:17:25 Bike: some object that's associated with a lexical location. 07:17:30 przl [~przlrkt@p54BF950B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 07:17:42 Question: the accessor subseq is not supposed to share storage with an old sequence - does that mean it generates a deep copy of the entries of the sequence? 07:17:57 -!- ehu [~ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:17:57 no deep copies 07:18:13 stassats: Great! 07:18:38 where did you get the bit about not sharing storage? 07:19:03 pkhuong: hm, so for that you'd want something inbetween nil and t for read-only-p, that means "not modifiable but don't coalesce"? 07:19:07 it is destructive and must share the storage 07:19:13 CLHS: Accessor SUBSEQ. "subseq always allocates a new sequence for a result; it never shares storage with an old sequence." 07:19:38 -!- brandonz [~brandon@199-188-193-145.PUBLIC.monkeybrains.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:19:42 stassats`, not SETF SUBSEQ 07:19:45 accessor confused me 07:20:01 drmeister: the sequence doesn't share storage. The sequences' contents remain EQL. 07:20:12 Bike: right. 07:20:54 pkhuong: i'd guess that implementations usually do their own implementation-dependent things for tracking source locations, outside of that? 07:20:54 drmeister: (setf subseq) is destructive, subseq is copying, no deep copies 07:21:35 pkhuong: I was unsure whether I needed to make a deep copy of entries if I'm generating a subseq of a cons. 07:21:58 do any implementations have a non-copying subseq? 07:22:10 I don't think anything in CL even does "deep copies"... 07:22:20 You have copy-seq and copy-struct and all but they don't work recursively. 07:22:21 Bike: copy-tree? 07:22:28 vsync [~vsync@wsip-98-175-216-162.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 07:22:28 oh, yeah. 07:22:31 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p54BF950B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:22:39 prxq [~mommer@mnhm-4d011939.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 07:22:41 Bike: I haven't seen deep copies come up much (or ever). 07:22:46 DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has joined #lisp 07:22:49 I wouldn't consider copy-tree a deep copy since it doesn't copy its contained objects 07:22:54 Oh yeah - copy-tree. 07:23:08 but it's for trees, and for tree it's not deep 07:23:12 Bike: sometimes you want to know that in your DSL. You don't need to know where, but you do want to know whether it's EQL or not. For example, serialisable closures. 07:23:15 it's deep for lists 07:23:20 yes right 07:23:29 pkhuong: I understand why you'd want it, just wondering about how implementations do it. 07:23:42 sb-c::source-location and all that other stuff i haven't looked at 07:23:48 -!- SrPx [~SrPx@177.98.102.25] has quit [Quit: SrPx] 07:24:27 kiuma [~kiuma@2-230-138-74.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 07:25:18 Bike: they're ok with coalescing: the source location object has enough information to represent the location. 07:25:31 oh, of course. 07:26:58 reckler [~reckler@ppp118-208-136-202.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:26:58 yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.169] has joined #lisp 07:32:00 browndawg [~browndawg@117.201.178.116] has joined #lisp 07:32:21 -!- DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:35:50 cdidd [~cdidd@95-28-115-114.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 07:35:52 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.96.129] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:40:26 -!- Fare [~fare@173-9-65-97-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 07:41:35 DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has joined #lisp 07:42:23 -!- DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:43:22 mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has joined #lisp 07:43:22 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has quit [Changing host] 07:43:22 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 07:44:06 -!- zolk3ri [~Zol1ka@unaffiliated/zolk3ri] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:45:26 -!- linse [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1177917310.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: zzzz] 07:52:44 -!- yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.169] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:55:11 good morning lithp! 07:56:56 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:57:39 zorkmoid: sup 07:58:03 DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has joined #lisp 07:59:14 browndawg: really bad weather is whats up! :-) 08:01:05 -!- Bike [~Glossina@63-229-134-7.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 08:01:30 liþp 08:02:44 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:03:02 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:08:13 zorkmoid: Sleep deprivation here :) 08:08:55 browndawg: oh, why? sleep is important! 08:09:32 -!- dim [~dim@orion.naquadah.org] has quit [Excess Flood] 08:09:53 dim [~dim@orion.naquadah.org] has joined #lisp 08:10:07 zorkmoid: exams. need to take a nap 08:10:53 ah, i dropped out eartly :-) 08:11:18 *browndawg* will be back. My pillow is calling me. 08:12:44 yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.169] has joined #lisp 08:13:01 -!- DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:14:00 varjagg [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 08:16:49 hello! 08:17:21 ehu [~ehu@109.33.4.245] has joined #lisp 08:17:38 -!- Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 08:19:24 -!- mathrick_ is now known as mathrick 08:19:29 brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-142-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:19:47 is it correct to define a function (or macro, var...) from a package different from the one where the function wiil be inter ? like for example (defun ecore.sys::adder (x) (+ 1 x)). And is it a bad practice ? 08:21:54 rmathews [~roshan@122.165.89.11] has joined #lisp 08:23:02 -!- two- [~1@c-67-171-131-23.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 08:24:16 kiuma: why not just use IN-PACKAGE? 08:26:30 becuase: I'd have to switch many times between ecore and ecore.sys package. But I'm thinking to properly document the functions and let the programmer good sense to do the rest 08:27:27 well, i wouldn't use (defun foo::bar ...) 08:27:36 -!- answer_42 [~answer_42@gateway/tor-sasl/answer42/x-66983568] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:27:51 me too :) . I was just asking 08:27:51 maybe wrap it in a macro, (defun-external package function ...) 08:28:08 or collect all the stuff for the other package in a different place. 08:28:39 some people mix things like that, i never really liked it .. 08:29:03 zorkmoid, yea maybe I'll do things tider when the protocol will be a bit more stabilized 08:29:30 tthough i've been known to do this myself :-) specially with -sys type of packages 08:30:10 kiuma: what are you writing? 08:30:20 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-185-82-146.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:30:52 enlightenment' ecore bindings 08:30:58 what is that? 08:31:02 zorkmoid: you said something yesterday about doing the work of 10-15 people with CL. Did you mean that literally? 08:31:12 yesterday my time, that is 08:31:19 faheem: yes 08:31:30 10-15 drunk rednecks with a poor work ethic. 08:31:33 zorkmoid, don't you know enlightenment.org ? 08:31:39 kiuma: no 08:32:08 zorkmoid: 10-15 people using some other language, presumably 08:32:12 kiuma: why not Qt? 08:32:33 faheem: well, yeah :-) 08:32:51 zorkmoid: did you have an particular language in mind? 08:33:02 DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has joined #lisp 08:33:09 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:33:27 zorkmoid, enlightenment is a window manager, ecore is a library of funtions for event oriented programming. 08:33:32 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:33:56 capisce, because I like ecore api, and because ecore is very light 08:33:57 faheem: well, not when i wrote that... but the other day some java bloak was getting some work, and said that doing this simple gui thingie visualising something with chromosones would take 4 weeks ... 08:34:08 kiuma: ok 08:34:24 there's libuv too I guess 08:34:33 zorkmoid: smart guy too ... 08:34:33 or libevent 08:35:06 there is also iolib, that is very nice too. 08:35:21 faheem: and i was a bit sceptical to the claim, asked the person who wanted this program to sit down with me for 6 hours ... and 6 hours later, done, with a few extra features he wanted .. 08:35:23 but iolib is a bit lowlevel for my needs 08:35:56 zorkmoid: did you get paid for the four weeks? :p 08:36:14 capisce: actually, yes :-) 08:36:26 nice... 08:36:36 what did you use for the GUI and the visualization? 08:36:41 capisce: clim 08:37:23 seems I need to get into freelancing 08:37:50 it was a simple program ... nothing fancy pancy .. 08:38:07 sure 08:38:33 we need more lisp hackers freelancing! 08:39:40 well, I'm more of a wannabe lisp hacker I guess 08:39:46 doubt it :-) 08:40:19 haven't actually used it much 08:40:41 answer_42 [~answer_42@gateway/tor-sasl/answer42/x-66983568] has joined #lisp 08:40:42 but I can see the benefits 08:41:28 would be nice to see more clim based programs, clim is wonderful. 08:42:08 -!- toekutr [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:50:25 -!- setmeaway [~setmeaway@118.45.149.239] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:55:16 zorkmoid: interesting. but maybe the 4 week estimate was overblown? even for java? 08:55:48 zorkmoid: though 6 hrs is pretty fast for any kind of program. maybe you are a CL whiz 08:57:51 doubt it ... i just know my tools. 08:58:35 that's what we call a whiz in general :) 08:59:34 -!- dim [~dim@orion.naquadah.org] has quit [Excess Flood] 08:59:53 dim [~dim@orion.naquadah.org] has joined #lisp 09:00:00 haha 09:00:51 zorkmoid: what did you use for a gui if anything? 09:01:13 zorkmoid: sorry, you already answered that 09:01:15 faheem: clim 09:01:16 :-) 09:03:55 I'm looking that up right now... so mcclim is a free version of clim, but quicklisp seems to be telling me that both clim and mcclim are both drawn from mcclim-20120909-cvs? 09:05:22 Dalek_Baldwin: it's integration between ASDF "systems" and quicklisp "packages" 09:05:28 clim looks like it is proprietary. 09:05:31 mcclim provides a system called "clim" 09:06:16 p_l: so i see. but it hasn't had a release since 2008? 09:06:37 McCLIM is a GPLed implementation, but I don't know how well it goes now 09:06:48 I do recall some work still going on in ~2009 09:07:43 clim is a standard 09:07:46 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 09:07:56 mcclim as p_l points out provides clim 09:08:35 zorkmoid: did you use mcclim? 09:08:38 yes 09:08:45 zorkmoid: ok. thanks 09:10:10 setmeaway [stemearay@118.45.149.239] has joined #lisp 09:11:21 arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-aqlloldxbxunvgvd] has joined #lisp 09:11:45 In the book "Patterns of Software", a collection of essays, Garbriel writes: At the start I estimated the productivity advantage of Lisp/CLOS over C/C++ 09:11:57 at a factor of three to four; at the end I set it at 30%. 09:12:48 the essay is "Productivity: Is there a silver bullet?" 09:13:30 I read that not too long ago, but I don't really remember that part 09:13:56 Dalek_Baldwin: it's available online for free 09:14:19 anyway, at the time i read it, i thought that difference seemed quite low 09:14:49 since, then, after having experimented with CL and having used C++ for a while, I'd say it definitely is too low 09:15:12 maybe he was talking about a group of people working together, which might make some difference 09:15:19 I think that was it 09:15:33 depends a bit on which libraries you use in combination with C++ too, no? Qt for instance is a great productivity booster 09:15:47 if you're doing something in lisp that you couldn't figure out how to do in c/c++ short of writing a compiler, how do you measure the productivity difference? 09:15:49 capisce: the context makes a difference, sure 09:16:22 it's like measuring inflation by comparing the price of iphones in 2012 to the price of nonexistent iphones in 1970 09:16:31 -!- answer_42 [~answer_42@gateway/tor-sasl/answer42/x-66983568] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:16:32 Dalek_Baldwin: good point. let's say it is something that one can do in both languages without bursting a blood vessel 09:16:47 -!- brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-142-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:17:34 of course, for any UI work I'd use QML these days and not C++ 09:18:20 maybe a single porson using CL is effective, as compared to a group. Though, I don't see why a group should be dramatically unproductive in comparison 09:18:34 would be nice to combine QML with lisp or adopt the ideas from QML 09:20:46 i've found that you can accumulate much more bad code karma in CL before things become unmanageable. 09:21:22 prxq: what is bad code karma? 09:21:56 yeah, right now I'm using lisp to make design decisions that ripple throughout several related applications, which would be unacceptable if this were a multi-person project where my changes would totally change the data model other programmers relied on 09:22:04 faheem: code that in hindsight you'd have written differently. In C such stuff tends to come back to bite you hard 09:22:28 What I mean is that you can cut a few more corners before getting into trouble 09:22:36 -!- svetlyak40wt [~svetlyak4@dhcp175-196-red3.yandex.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:23:06 yeah, multi-person projects cause a lot of overhead when doing large changes 09:23:13 i don't think i'd want to work on lisp code in a large group 09:23:22 tcr1 [~tcr@84-72-21-32.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 09:24:06 I'm basically trying to make it as robust and flexible as possible until we get to the point where more people are added on and certain elements of the design will be locked in 09:26:57 -!- echo-area [~user@182.92.247.2] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:27:02 but I hope at that point the lisp portions will still be useful for exploring potential incremental design changes 09:28:36 prxq: i see. thanks for the clarification 09:29:29 kmels [~kmels@frbg-4d0291eb.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 09:30:00 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@95.56.70.187] has joined #lisp 09:30:00 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@95.56.70.187] has quit [Changing host] 09:30:00 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 09:30:28 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 09:30:45 bitonic [~user@b0fc070e.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 09:34:09 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:34:32 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:34:44 SrPx [~SrPx@177.98.102.25] has joined #lisp 09:35:39 -!- SrPx [~SrPx@177.98.102.25] has quit [Client Quit] 09:39:52 here is a fairly nicely written language comparison http://caml.inria.fr/pub/ml-archives/caml-list/2001/12/ae70cca65c68cbcf1b331d6dddae0baf.en.html 09:42:38 -!- vsync [~vsync@wsip-98-175-216-162.ri.ri.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:43:12 vsync [~vsync@wsip-98-175-216-162.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 09:44:18 capisce: I didn't feel comfortable using qml when I was working on this stuff in python, since it seemed easier to interact with the qt api directly, or at least easier to learn the vagaries of qt that way. but a representation of qml in s-expressions could put a lot of design power at your fingertips 09:45:01 -!- varjagg [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:47:23 -!- kmels [~kmels@frbg-4d0291eb.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 09:47:46 I guess it's basically javascript, so parenscript might do the trick 09:48:55 hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has joined #lisp 09:48:55 -!- hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has quit [Changing host] 09:48:55 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 09:49:37 -!- seerhut__ [~seerhut@121.197.1.189] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:51:43 -!- rob7n8h23 [~rob7n8h23@c-67-182-147-102.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit 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joined #lisp 10:20:25 victor_lowther [~victor.lo@2602:306:3b84:e2a0:21b7:47d6:fccf:24d6] has joined #lisp 10:20:26 -!- spacefrogg^ is now known as spacefrogg 10:22:19 edgar-rft [~GOD@HSI-KBW-149-172-63-75.hsi13.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 10:22:46 brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-142-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:22:59 ogamita [~t@host.34.193.23.62.rev.coltfrance.com] has joined #lisp 10:24:36 -!- dim [~dim@orion.naquadah.org] has quit [Excess Flood] 10:24:57 dim [~dim@orion.naquadah.org] has joined #lisp 10:27:04 -!- brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-142-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:29:29 kmels [~kmels@frbg-4d0291eb.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 10:30:32 -!- doomlord [~doomlod@host86-166-19-243.range86-166.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 10:30:34 -!- yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.169] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:31:18 Is it possible to set up slime to work with both sbcl and scheme? So I can have one sbcl-repl and one mit-scheme-repl? Does anyone have an example of a dual setup like this? 10:31:52 Maybe an example with different CL implementations in slime (in different buffers)? 10:32:01 add^_ [~add^_@m83-190-167-197.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 10:32:09 -!- bitonic [~user@b0fc070e.bb.sky.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 10:32:43 there is a better way i think, but i just have multiple definition forms for inferior-lisp-program in my .emacs. when i need a different implementation, i evaluate the respective form and start slime. 10:32:58 slime starts a fresh repl for each implementation (i.e. differen inferior-lisp-program value) 10:34:21 impaktor: outside of some contribs that mess that up, slime's support for multiple implementations work with that, afaik, as long as you use swank modules distributed with it 10:34:47 ... which means that adding clojure requires reloading whole slime, because it uses old slime versions and doesn't want to update 10:35:12 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:35:32 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:36:26 xcombelle [~xcombelle@AToulouse-551-1-106-71.w92-149.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 10:37:05 So I could have different (setq inferior-lisp-program "foo"), and depending on the value of this when I M-x slime, I get a new repl? 10:37:19 impaktor: yes. 10:37:49 actually, you can define multiple implementations and use C-u M-x slime implementation-tag 10:37:59 but I don't know how well that works outside CL 10:38:03 So I could wrap that into different functions, that I then could call with M-x ...? 10:39:04 impaktor: your question makes me wonder if you could do it right away :) - but yes, that is entirely possible. 10:39:14 For mit-scheme with slime, there are some additional lines that needs to be added to the slime configuration. 10:40:03 yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.169] has joined #lisp 10:41:06 Another Q: On my work computer I have SBCL installed in my $HOME, so I need to tell the shell the value of SBCL_HOME, which I do in .zsh or .bash, but when Emacs/Slime calls sbcl, it does not read the environment variable SBCL_HOME. 10:41:17 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:41:52 impaktor: there's a variable slime-lisp-implementations 10:41:57 impaktor: you can either use (setenv "SBCL_HOME" ...) in your .emacs or - better yet - put the environment variable assignment into the _right_ shell implementation file. 10:42:08 s/implementation/initialization/ 10:42:09 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 10:42:15 mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.96.215] has joined #lisp 10:42:19 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f7554e7.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 10:44:26 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@84-72-21-32.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 10:48:12 -!- browndawg [~browndawg@117.201.178.116] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 10:48:27 H4ns: Thanks, setenv should fix it. I have the assignment in the right shell file, it works when I start sbcl from my shell, and Emacs doesn't seem to read/execute the variable assignments from my shell config file, so I think the setenv is the way to do it. 10:48:41 bitonic [~user@b0fc070e.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 10:50:44 impaktor: if the environment variable was assigned in the right init file, it would be set in emacs 10:52:00 I fail to see which would be the "right" init file? I have the assignment in a file ~/.shell which is read by both zsh and bash upon start. 10:53:20 impaktor: the "right" one would be read at the start of your session, but as i don't know anything about your desktop environment, i don't know which file that would be. 10:56:36 I've been running emacs for longer than I had sbcl installed, so my current emacs hasn't read that stuff. I guess that would explain it. 10:56:40 right? 10:57:12 -!- yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.169] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:57:24 Since I run my emacs for months if possible, without restarting. 10:57:28 you certainly need to restart the session if you want to see a session-wide effect of a change to a shell initialization file. 10:57:57 Yep. Thanks. 10:58:05 I got slime running now. 10:58:12 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:59:08 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-239-75.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 10:59:11 -!- rjmt___ [~uid1@37.157.33.78] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:59:36 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 11:00:16 impaktor_ [~user@johnny.thep.lu.se] has joined #lisp 11:00:54 -!- impaktor [~user@b2.thep.lu.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:01:22 -!- przl [~przlrkt@46.231.183.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:01:56 yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.169] has joined #lisp 11:02:44 SrPx [~SrPx@177.98.102.25] has joined #lisp 11:07:34 impaktor [~user@b2.thep.lu.se] has joined #lisp 11:07:56 przl [~przlrkt@46.231.183.162] has joined #lisp 11:16:34 foreignFunction [~niksaak@94.27.88.22] has joined #lisp 11:19:11 -!- yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.169] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 11:19:14 -!- 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zorkmoid: undo? 11:50:30 jdz: i don't want to undo, i wish to store the deleted region in a variable .. 11:50:56 elete-and-extract-region! 11:50:58 thanks :-) 11:51:27 awesome 11:57:48 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Disconnected by services] 11:58:19 -!- rmathews [~roshan@122.165.89.11] has quit [Quit: ...] 11:58:20 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 12:00:53 answer_42 [~answer_42@gateway/tor-sasl/answer42/x-66983568] has joined #lisp 12:04:50 -!- browndawg [~browndawg@117.201.178.116] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 12:05:55 -!- green_ [~green@dsl-207-112-126-155.tor.primus.ca] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:06:21 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.96.215] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:07:40 mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.99.39] has joined #lisp 12:08:00 redline6561_ [~redline65@li69-162.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 12:09:15 Joreji_ [~thomas@84-182.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 12:10:44 -!- redline6561 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13:24:10 -!- francisl [~anonymous@bas3-montreal42-1242353936.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: francisl] 13:29:29 LiamH [~none@129-2-129-144.wireless.umd.edu] has joined #lisp 13:29:32 -!- dim [~dim@orion.naquadah.org] has quit [Excess Flood] 13:29:44 dim [~dim@orion.naquadah.org] has joined #lisp 13:34:05 groovy2shoes [~cory@unaffiliated/groovebot] has joined #lisp 13:38:01 -!- ZombieChicken [~weechat@unaffiliated/forgottenwizard] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:38:52 Denommus [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/denommus] has joined #lisp 13:38:56 hi 13:39:52 anyone knows some book that teaches lisp for developers? 13:40:04 minion: please tell Denommus about PCL 13:40:04 Denommus: please see PCL: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 13:40:08 I mean, developers who are used to ALGOL-like languages 13:40:20 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:40:26 -!- przl [~przlrkt@46.231.183.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:40:32 I'm reading exactly this book right now 13:40:44 perfect 13:41:43 Denommus: that book is good for what you want. 13:42:04 minion: tell Denommus about PAIP 13:42:05 PAIP: No definition was found in the first 5 lines of http://www.cliki.net/PAIP 13:42:15 after you read PCL and get a hang of the language 13:43:29 ZombieChicken [~weechat@unaffiliated/forgottenwizard] has joined #lisp 13:45:30 answer_42 [~answer_42@gateway/tor-sasl/answer42/x-66983568] has joined #lisp 13:46:57 -!- varjagg [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:48:05 -!- groovy2shoes [~cory@unaffiliated/groovebot] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 13:48:17 Thra11 [~thrall@121.13.112.87.dyn.plus.net] has joined #lisp 13:50:14 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-187-57.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 13:51:23 Denommus: may I ask what your level of experience is? 13:52:00 fsvehla [~fsvehla@TK212017097035.teleweb.at] has joined #lisp 13:52:12 przl [~przlrkt@46.231.183.162] has joined #lisp 13:54:02 CampinSam [~user@24-176-103-21.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has joined #lisp 13:55:06 -!- ignas [~ignas@office.pov.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 13:55:35 ignas [~ignas@office.pov.lt] has joined #lisp 13:56:05 breakds [~breakds@ppp-70-226-163-93.dsl.mdsnwi.ameritech.net] has joined #lisp 13:58:52 Well, it's always good enough to start learning lisp. 14:02:00 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 14:02:10 -!- fsvehla [~fsvehla@TK212017097035.teleweb.at] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:02:47 skbierm [~sascha@p4FEA0D99.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 14:05:21 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@70.114.215.220] has quit [] 14:05:58 ogamita: true 14:06:16 urandom__ [~user@ip-176-199-8-225.unitymediagroup.de] has joined #lisp 14:06:58 fsvehla [~fsvehla@TK212017097035.teleweb.at] has joined #lisp 14:07:04 -!- Euthy [~euthy@unaffiliated/euthydemus] has quit [Quit: Reconnecting] 14:07:12 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-239-75.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:07:19 Euthy [~euthy@unaffiliated/euthydemus] has joined #lisp 14:08:30 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 14:09:11 -!- yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.169] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:09:12 Thra11_ [~thrall@31.185.135.59] has joined #lisp 14:12:15 -!- browndawg [~browndawg@117.201.84.94] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:12:45 -!- Thra11 [~thrall@121.13.112.87.dyn.plus.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:15:14 -!- Thra11_ [~thrall@31.185.135.59] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:17:25 Indecipherable [~Indeciphe@41.23.185.46] has joined #lisp 14:18:22 prxq: with common lisp? Zero. But I have two years of experience with Ruby and one year and a half with Java and Javascript 14:19:18 that's why I was asking for a book for developers that already know ALGOL-like languages 14:19:32 newblue [~newblue@121.11.97.93] has joined #lisp 14:20:38 PCL? 14:21:04 alkul [~alk@90.Red-83-61-33.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 14:21:17 -!- victor_lowther [~victor.lo@2602:306:3b84:e2a0:21b7:47d6:fccf:24d6] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:22:16 I'm already reading it, thank you 14:24:09 OnLisp? LoL? 14:24:35 -!- LiamH [~none@129-2-129-144.wireless.umd.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:24:37 (haven't actually read lol) 14:25:39 dabd_ [~dabd@a95-93-205-168.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 14:26:12 I'm seeing where Matz got his inspiration from 14:26:37 Ruby got a lot of things from Lisp. But, in his case, it was from ELisp 14:27:28 zolk3ri2 [~Zol1ka@catv-89-132-196-182.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 14:29:15 -!- fsvehla [~fsvehla@TK212017097035.teleweb.at] has quit [Quit: fsvehla] 14:29:59 ahungry [~null@66.184.106.97] has joined #lisp 14:30:15 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:30:57 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 14:31:24 fsvehla [~fsvehla@TK212017097035.teleweb.at] has joined #lisp 14:32:29 drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has joined #lisp 14:32:46 -!- Joreji [~thomas@77-144.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:34:40 -!- kofno [~kofno@cpe-24-165-210-251.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:34:57 -!- przl [~przlrkt@46.231.183.162] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:37:13 elisp should maybe have gotten a little more than it did from CL 14:37:14 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for should maybe have gotten a little more than it did from CL. 14:37:39 revolve [~luke@199.19.119.133] has joined #lisp 14:37:44 kofno [~kofno@cpe-24-165-210-251.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:38:36 i should made it ignore multiple words, if multiple words are not supported in the said dictionary 14:38:50 Fare [~fare@173-9-65-97-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 14:39:34 -!- dim [~dim@orion.naquadah.org] has quit [Excess Flood] 14:39:40 clintm [~user@c-98-203-180-88.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:39:47 dim [~dim@orion.naquadah.org] has joined #lisp 14:41:44 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@95.56.70.187] has joined #lisp 14:41:44 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@95.56.70.187] has quit [Changing host] 14:41:44 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 14:42:00 natechan [~natechan@50-192-61-46-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 14:42:42 stokachu [~stokachu@50.58.87.197] has joined #lisp 14:42:52 -!- stokachu [~stokachu@50.58.87.197] has quit [Changing host] 14:42:52 stokachu [~stokachu@ubuntu/member/stokachu] has joined #lisp 14:43:26 -!- Indecipherable [~Indeciphe@41.23.185.46] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:44:07 dim: historically, cl got stuff from elisp; elisp is heavily based no maclisp ... 14:45:18 which parts in CL are from elisp, exactly, i wonder 14:45:24 interesting 14:45:41 I imagined that elisp was the little brother of CL 14:45:47 jdz: the cl module! 14:45:48 might well be the other way round, you're saying? 14:45:58 jdz: by historically i mean that cl wasn't based at all directly on elisp, but that elisp is basically maclisp with some extra cruft, and cl is based on maclisp. 14:46:48 the first statement was a very awkward way to say that, though 14:47:08 maclisp became elisp and lisp machine lisp / zeta lisp, of which the two later where the basis for common lisp .. 14:47:15 jsfb [~jon@unaffiliated/jsfb] has joined #lisp 14:47:20 (more or less) 14:47:45 Kenjin [~kenjin@bl20-202-119.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 14:48:33 yes father 14:49:34 -!- dim [~dim@orion.naquadah.org] has quit [Excess Flood] 14:49:40 yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.169] has joined #lisp 14:51:22 :-) 14:51:57 dim [~dim@orion.naquadah.org] has joined #lisp 14:52:52 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-166-60.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:54:34 -!- dim [~dim@orion.naquadah.org] has quit [Excess Flood] 14:54:55 dim [~dim@orion.naquadah.org] has joined #lisp 14:57:39 -!- clintm [~user@c-98-203-180-88.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:57:45 browndawg [~browndawg@117.201.84.94] has joined #lisp 14:59:49 Joreji [~thomas@84-182.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 15:00:17 dim: elisp is older than cl 15:01:32 I heard that some guys are porting emacs to GNU Guile 15:02:08 which is similar to Scheme 15:02:20 stopbit [~stopbit@static-108-48-124-82.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:02:50 Guile has support for elisp, iirc 15:02:57 Denommus: there's hemlock, which is a rewrite of emacs in common lisp 15:03:18 that'd would be great, if it had vim keybindings ... ;} 15:03:28 there's climacs 15:03:50 alama [~jessealam@stgt-5f717ec6.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 15:04:07 Denommus: guile is a scheme, and yeah, there is some initial support for elisp ... 15:04:16 snowylike: yup. That's why they chose Guile. So all the extensions will remain working, but they'll have a more powerful language for more powerful extensions :) 15:04:31 I'd love if they made gnus async, for instance 15:04:35 -!- dim [~dim@orion.naquadah.org] has quit [Excess Flood] 15:04:48 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@94.144.63.83] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:04:48 dim [~dim@orion.naquadah.org] has joined #lisp 15:04:57 Denommus: hear hear 15:05:28 segv- [~mb@dslb-094-223-015-209.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 15:05:29 are those emacs clones stable and/or have a minimal amount of features? 15:05:37 mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has joined #lisp 15:05:37 -!- segv- [~mb@dslb-094-223-015-209.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:05:49 the reason people still use elisp, as far as I know, is because the amount of elisp libraries is HUGE 15:06:04 -!- natechan [~natechan@50-192-61-46-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:06:04 yeah 15:06:08 segv- [~mb@dslb-094-223-015-209.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 15:06:18 I think it would be a waste of effort to port emacs to other language that could not load all its older extensions 15:06:37 I'm happy guilemacs because of this 15:07:18 they also added lexical scoping to the latest emacs 15:07:20 s/happy/happy with/ 15:07:22 Denommus: also, some of us happen to like it 15:07:30 yup. lexical-let 15:07:31 i wouldn't consider scheme a viable alternative 15:08:09 xristos: considering that elisp is a subset of guile, why not? 15:08:23 it would provide everything elisp already provides, plus a lot more 15:09:01 i'm not talking about guile 15:09:12 guile is a scheme 15:09:16 guile is a vm 15:09:27 which supports many different languages 15:09:35 -!- dim [~dim@orion.naquadah.org] has quit [Excess Flood] 15:09:38 does it support common lisp? 15:09:39 all of them poorly 15:09:43 i might add 15:09:44 -!- fsvehla [~fsvehla@TK212017097035.teleweb.at] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:09:51 well maybe not scheme 15:09:56 dim [~dim@orion.naquadah.org] has joined #lisp 15:10:04 does Guile support common lisp? 15:10:08 no 15:10:17 from the site: "Guile is an interpreter and compiler for the Scheme programming language" 15:10:19 Then it's off topic. 15:10:22 guile is an implementation of scheme, which happens to include an vm. 15:10:24 take it somewhere else 15:10:39 #lispcafe is the popular recommendation 15:11:03 dlowe: #lisp is only about cl? I didn't know, sorry 15:11:12 Denommus: it's okay. It's not obvious 15:11:35 I haven't heard of it happening, but freenode reserves the right to boot a topical channel if it isn't actually about the topic 15:11:50 I'd expect #lisp to be about the family and #clisp or #commonlisp about common lisp 15:12:03 don't shoot the messenger :p 15:12:15 ok, I'm just apologizing 15:12:16 Denommus: #clisp would be about clisp, not common lisp :-) 15:12:25 Unfortunately, #cl is about Chile 15:12:28 zorkmoid: you're right 15:12:32 otherwise it'd be ideal 15:12:43 #commonlisp would be good, too 15:12:53 #common-lisp, maybe 15:13:04 if you're going to go long, go all the way :D 15:13:07 linse [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1177917310.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 15:13:10 -!- add^_ [~add^_@m83-190-167-197.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: The Garbage Collector got me...] 15:13:22 Does anyone actually use Hemlock or Climacs for day to day stuff? 15:13:31 but I understand where this comes from. Common Lisp must be the most popular standard nowadays 15:13:39 I didn't even know that they existed 15:13:43 they're not even on AUR 15:13:54 fsvehla [~fsvehla@TK212017097035.teleweb.at] has joined #lisp 15:14:21 isn't mcclim dead 15:14:43 surely that would make climacs dead too 15:14:54 i use mcclim on a daily basis. 15:15:08 i use climacs 15:15:08 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:15:14 well, last news from climacs are from 2008. Pretty dead, to me 15:15:27 me too, my irc client is for example .....mcclim based..... 15:15:31 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:15:35 more often than not i use that one.... 15:15:42 sometimes emacs too....tho 15:15:46 wbooze: dedicated :) 15:16:10 last commit is from 2010 15:16:12 last time i could get the maxima interface up 15:16:15 in mcclim 15:16:24 and it's still linux-only 15:16:25 maybe it's a perfect jewel that needs no improvement :D 15:16:41 but couldn't compile maxima in a way to contain also all the packages from contrib..... 15:16:42 for all practical purposes that is 15:16:43 xristos: i use it on solaris, hpux, .. 15:16:49 so that i could have a full maxima.....in mcclim 15:17:33 dlowe: lichtblau might use his (qt-)hemlock fork, I guess. 15:18:24 there's a formula.lisp which could have been developed further and integrated better in to the listener or some mcclim frame or even together with maxima..... 15:19:13 i never tried hemlock.....and if it was in connection with a scheme implementation i think..... 15:20:07 despite it being not maintained anymore .....i think mcclim is still my favourite besides emacs.... 15:20:22 oh. Is there a common lisp usenet newsgroup that I can subscribe through gnus? 15:20:27 hemlock was distributed with cmucl - now there's a portable version around 15:20:36 Denommus, comp.lang.lisp 15:20:37 gendl [~gendl@c-68-41-192-171.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:20:49 Fare: what is the server? 15:21:03 that question makes me sad :( 15:21:07 it's usenet - decentralized - any old server will do. 15:21:19 it's on google groups, too 15:21:32 I saw on google groups 15:21:40 doesn't help the intrepid gnus fan 15:21:45 I don't know how usenet works, it was an honest question 15:21:55 ykm [~ykm@124.155.255.223] has joined #lisp 15:22:08 I use gnus only as an email client, but comp.lang.lisp interests me 15:22:22 does google have any usenet server? 15:23:00 nope 15:23:10 it's quite aggravating 15:23:19 chameco [~samuel@rrcs-184-74-46-5.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:23:51 francisl [~flavoie@199.84.164.114] has joined #lisp 15:24:13 first bet is to ask your ISP 15:24:24 adelgado [~TomSawyer@65.23.61.98.nw.nuvox.net] has joined #lisp 15:24:41 -!- svetlyak40wt [~svetlyak4@dhcp175-196-red3.yandex.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:25:12 -!- francisl [~flavoie@199.84.164.114] has quit [Client Quit] 15:25:31 francisl [~flavoie@199.84.164.114] has joined #lisp 15:27:07 natechan [~natechan@50-192-61-46-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 15:27:52 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:29:06 Who is this WJ on comp.lang.lisp ? 15:29:44 -!- Cymew [~user@fw01d.snowmen.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 15:30:39 svetlyak40wt [~svetlyak4@2a02:6b8:0:101:e5d3:45f5:66e6:dd41] has joined #lisp 15:31:09 mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has joined #lisp 15:31:37 -!- svetlyak40wt [~svetlyak4@2a02:6b8:0:101:e5d3:45f5:66e6:dd41] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:32:25 svetlyak40wt [~svetlyak4@dhcp175-196-red3.yandex.net] has joined #lisp 15:33:46 -!- svetlyak40wt [~svetlyak4@dhcp175-196-red3.yandex.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:35:56 -!- hugod [~user@bas1-montreal08-1279585004.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:36:18 found a server 15:36:23 hugod [~user@bas1-montreal08-1279585004.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 15:36:32 -!- tensorpudding [~tensorpud@99.148.202.176] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 15:37:06 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:39:12 dnolen [~user@cpe-74-64-61-245.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:40:03 benny [~user@i577A19B2.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 15:40:11 gendl, WJ ? 15:40:13 where? 15:40:16 url? 15:40:52 https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups=#!topic/comp.lang.lisp/GYjcxLxr24g 15:40:56 normanrichards [~normanric@mobile-166-137-147-134.mycingular.net] has joined #lisp 15:41:04 he interjects some annoying comment in just about every thread 15:44:57 -!- zolk3ri2 [~Zol1ka@catv-89-132-196-182.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:44:59 why would anyone read a thread with such a subject? 15:45:10 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:45:14 -!- xcombelle [~xcombelle@AToulouse-551-1-106-71.w92-149.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:45:59 aah gavino 15:48:49 -!- chameco [~samuel@rrcs-184-74-46-5.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:49:32 -!- Denommus [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/denommus] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:49:36 -!- dim [~dim@orion.naquadah.org] has quit [Excess Flood] 15:49:54 dim [~dim@orion.naquadah.org] has joined #lisp 15:49:58 tensorpudding [~tensorpud@99.23.126.244] has joined #lisp 15:50:35 Denommus [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/denommus] has joined #lisp 15:50:42 -!- doomlord [~doomlod@host86-166-19-243.range86-166.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 15:51:02 mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has joined #lisp 15:51:55 ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.179] has joined #lisp 15:52:12 -!- kofno [~kofno@cpe-24-165-210-251.neo.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 15:52:26 that's what killfiles are for 15:52:27 -!- fsvehla [~fsvehla@TK212017097035.teleweb.at] has quit [Quit: fsvehla] 15:52:48 paroneayea [~user@fsf/member/paroneayea] has joined #lisp 15:53:39 SrPx [~SrPx@177.98.102.25] has joined #lisp 15:53:58 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 15:54:03 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Client Quit] 15:54:36 -!- dim [~dim@orion.naquadah.org] has quit [Excess Flood] 15:54:37 -!- Denommus [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/denommus] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:54:42 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 15:54:57 dim [~dim@orion.naquadah.org] has joined #lisp 15:55:16 fsvehla [~fsvehla@TK212017097035.teleweb.at] has joined #lisp 15:55:24 youlysses [~user@75-132-17-145.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 15:55:26 Denommus [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/denommus] has joined #lisp 15:55:51 -!- adelgado [~TomSawyer@65.23.61.98.nw.nuvox.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:56:20 adelgado [~TomSawyer@65.23.61.98.nw.nuvox.net] has joined #lisp 15:57:23 ^ 15:57:54 _d3f [~freedo@95.211.188.251] has joined #lisp 15:58:11 eternal september is a decent usenet server. 15:58:37 doomlord [~doomlod@host86-166-19-243.range86-166.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 15:59:36 -!- dim [~dim@orion.naquadah.org] has quit [Excess Flood] 15:59:57 dim [~dim@orion.naquadah.org] has joined #lisp 16:09:53 Indecipherable [~Indeciphe@41.13.48.228] has joined #lisp 16:11:43 -!- alkul [~alk@90.Red-83-61-33.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: alkul] 16:11:55 Fare: ASDF tries to call (MERGE-PATHNAMES "catalog.dtd" NIL) when loading cxml 16:12:57 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:13:16 brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-142-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:19:15 -!- Kenjin [~kenjin@bl20-202-119.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:20:08 -!- Indecipherable [~Indeciphe@41.13.48.228] has quit [Quit: used jmIrc] 16:20:10 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 16:20:50 hkBst_ [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 16:23:48 -!- linse [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1177917310.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: zzzz] 16:25:19 zolk3ri [~Zol1ka@unaffiliated/zolk3ri] has joined #lisp 16:25:26 -!- hkBst_ [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Client Quit] 16:26:44 I've been reading through "Land of Lisp" and I'm really surprised how nice of a casual read it is. :-) 16:27:57 I have isolated a case where a SBCL note does not make sense to me: http://paste.lisp.org/display/134994 16:28:04 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:28:40 seangrove [~user@c-71-202-126-17.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:28:42 does someone understand what is the problem here ? I specifically indicate that the argument is a single-float, and yet it seems this indication is not taken into account 16:30:17 mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has joined #lisp 16:30:38 honkfestival [~honkfesti@198-84-183-94.cpe.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 16:30:43 kruhft [~user@69.90.114.176] has joined #lisp 16:30:48 -!- [SLB] is now known as [SLB]` 16:31:26 <|3b|> galdor: THE doesn't change the range of possible return types, it just tells the compiler you will never return something else 16:31:29 galdor: give a range for the float 16:33:06 well, a too common instance of people expecting SBCL to perform backward propagation (: 16:33:27 findiggle [~kirkwood@173-10-106-172-BusName-Washington.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 16:33:35 it does not seem to be an ftype declaration 16:33:46 how do I do this ? 16:34:23 I only know (or at least I thought I did) about THE and (DECLARE (TYPE )) 16:34:51 galdor: you declare A to be a (single-float #.(ash -1 63) #.(1- (ash 1 63))). 16:35:28 + floatification of the bound values 16:35:28 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 16:35:42 oh you mean a range of values 16:37:42 yes. Try (truncate 1.0s30) to see the issue. 16:37:51 -!- [SLB]` is now known as [SLB] 16:37:57 1.0e30 rather 16:38:02 or (and single-float (real m-n-f m-p-f)) might be clearer. 16:38:10 http://paste.lisp.org/display/134994#1 works as intended 16:38:25 well I reduced the range since I know the domain of the problem :) 16:38:30 thank you for your help 16:38:36 SBCL (nearly) always treats type declarations the same way: the check is elided if it can be proven redundant, and the result is assumed to satisfy the declaration. So, in normal code, SBCL would convert to an integer and the check that it's a fixnum. With (safety 0), the check is elided. 16:39:04 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@mobile-166-137-147-134.mycingular.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:39:12 galdor: do you need both return values? 16:39:16 yes 16:39:28 I normally always keep (safety 1) 16:39:42 there's no need for the return type declaration now. 16:40:06 indeed 16:40:14 -!- findiggle [~kirkwood@173-10-106-172-BusName-Washington.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:40:24 findiggle [~kirkwood@173-10-106-172-BusName-Washington.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 16:40:45 katsup [~katsup@204.14.12.196] has joined #lisp 16:41:06 -!- katsup [~katsup@204.14.12.196] has left #lisp 16:41:26 katsup [~katsup@204.14.12.196] has joined #lisp 16:42:34 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:42:46 i've found that I do not need to change the safety settings lately 16:43:34 -!- karswell [~user@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:43:36 PCChris [~PCChris@wireless-165-124-86-99.nuwlan.northwestern.edu] has joined #lisp 16:43:50 karswell [~user@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 16:44:20 -!- findiggle [~kirkwood@173-10-106-172-BusName-Washington.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Client Quit] 16:44:35 findiggle [~kirkwood@173-10-106-172-BusName-Washington.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 16:45:11 -!- BountyX [~andrew@76.14.65.229] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:47:29 -!- Denommus [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/denommus] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:47:44 stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-233-160.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 16:48:48 -!- fsvehla [~fsvehla@TK212017097035.teleweb.at] has quit [Quit: fsvehla] 16:49:48 Kenjin [~kenjin@2.81.202.119] has joined #lisp 16:51:32 fsvehla [~fsvehla@tk212017097035.teleweb.at] has joined #lisp 16:51:44 -!- ehu [~ehu@109.33.4.245] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:51:50 -!- javajax848 [~jax@www.getintheleotard.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:52:00 javajax848 [~jax@www.getintheleotard.com] has joined #lisp 16:52:31 redline6561_: around? 16:52:52 Kenjin: I am. What can I do for you? 16:54:28 about that hunchentoot/heroku plugin for coleslaw. you have a minute to discuss the anatomy of the thing a bit? 16:54:41 Sure. 16:54:44 pvt? 16:54:49 Good idea. 16:57:48 -!- PCChris [~PCChris@wireless-165-124-86-99.nuwlan.northwestern.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:01:47 -!- katsup [~katsup@204.14.12.196] has quit [Quit: Bye] 17:03:54 LiamH [~none@aes048148.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 17:04:45 -!- cmatei [~cmatei@95.76.25.200] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 17:05:35 smithzv [~smithzv@c-71-201-59-76.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:05:45 cmatei [~cmatei@95.76.25.200] has joined #lisp 17:05:54 normanrichards [~normanric@rrcs-108-178-120-144.sw.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:06:00 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:06:50 smazga [~acrid@64.55.45.194] has joined #lisp 17:09:27 mathrick [~mathrick@94.144.63.83] has joined #lisp 17:09:49 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@50-196-148-102-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 17:13:10 Keshi [~Keshi@unaffiliated/keshi] has joined #lisp 17:14:08 stassats`, that's bad. Ought to be merge-pathnames* 17:14:09 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:14:31 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:16:47 I think the bug is in cxml, let me see 17:26:39 -!- alama [~jessealam@stgt-5f717ec6.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/] 17:26:44 -!- fsvehla [~fsvehla@tk212017097035.teleweb.at] has quit [Quit: fsvehla] 17:28:18 -!- breakds [~breakds@ppp-70-226-163-93.dsl.mdsnwi.ameritech.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 17:31:26 eldariof [~CLD@pppoe-211-206-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has joined #lisp 17:33:37 -!- spacefrogg is now known as spacefrogg^ 17:35:07 -!- LiamH [~none@aes048148.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:44:55 -!- paroneayea [~user@fsf/member/paroneayea] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:47:12 pnpuff [~dioxyrane@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 17:47:33 -!- browndawg [~browndawg@117.201.84.94] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:49:11 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:49:24 stassats`, could reproduce. It's a bug in cxml/xml/catalog.lisp 17:49:33 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:52:00 the fix is (defparameter *catalog-dtd* (let ((dtd (asdf:system-relative-pathname :cxml "catalog.dtd"))) ...) 17:52:29 wheelsucker [~user@168.114.240.150] has joined #lisp 17:52:37 -!- pnpuff [~dioxyrane@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has left #lisp 17:52:41 -!- TristamWrk [~tristamwr@bodhilinux/team/Tristam] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:52:41 that doesn't make me feel any better than if it were a bug in asdf 17:53:38 ikki [~ikki@187.240.179.216] has joined #lisp 17:54:04 -!- ikki [~ikki@187.240.179.216] has quit [Client Quit] 17:54:21 ikki [~ikki@187.240.179.216] has joined #lisp 17:55:07 TristamWrk [~tristamwr@bodhilinux/team/Tristam] has joined #lisp 17:55:44 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-76-254-45-27.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:57:27 I'll see if I can improve the backward compatibility "if it's not backward, it's not compatible". 17:58:26 dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 17:58:42 Xizor [~Xizor@c83-252-198-185.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 18:01:12 -!- ykm [~ykm@124.155.255.223] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:01:12 -!- axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-88-224.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:01:17 Ue [~Ue@gateway/tor-sasl/ue] has joined #lisp 18:04:42 -!- b1rkh0ff [~b1rkh0ff@31.176.156.222] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:04:43 *stassats`* is happy that he doesn't use any asdf: in his code, no reason for breakage 18:05:07 *load-truename* *cf-truename* work fine for cases like this 18:05:13 b1rkh0ff [~b1rkh0ff@31.176.147.137] has joined #lisp 18:10:40 directly poking at slot-value was never supported, though in ASDF 1 it was the only way 18:11:17 ASDF2 provides supported interfaces for most that people want to do, but many systems still use dirty trick from the ASDF1 days. 18:11:27 I need a basic set of libraries to write a (very low volume) web app showing a simple HTML form and mail off the collected data. What would you suggest for the libs? 18:11:28 and ASDF3 adds more supported interfaces. 18:11:35 LiamH [~none@aes048148.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 18:11:47 antoszka: hunchentoot, cl-who, cl-smtp 18:11:53 stassats`: thx 18:12:41 -!- LiamH [~none@aes048148.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Client Quit] 18:14:22 -!- youlysses [~user@75-132-17-145.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:14:33 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:14:54 Indecipherable [~Indeciphe@41.13.48.228] has joined #lisp 18:14:59 if some system does unsupported stuff, it's a bug in said system. I'll do my best to add some patch to ASDF after the fact, but I'm not proactively maintaining backward compatibility with every possible behavior in previous ASDF, or else I couldn't make a single change. 18:15:31 thanks for the bug report, though -- very appreciated. 18:18:18 thanks for maintaining ASDF Fare 18:18:47 PCChris [~PCChris@wireless-165-124-86-133.nuwlan.northwestern.edu] has joined #lisp 18:19:32 -!- JPeterson [~JPeterson@s213-103-211-4.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:21:00 (and yes, you're right, it doesn't matter much to the user who's wrong when the thing fails) 18:21:09 drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has joined #lisp 18:21:17 madnificent, thanks for the appreciation! 18:24:54 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 18:24:55 -!- PCChris [~PCChris@wireless-165-124-86-133.nuwlan.northwestern.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:25:48 zolk3ri1 [~Zol1ka@catv-89-132-196-182.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 18:26:14 paul0 [~paul0@187.112.67.90] has joined #lisp 18:26:43 how do I interrupt a "read-message-loop"? 18:27:03 ran (read-message-loop connection) from cl-irc example, http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-irc/ 18:27:14 can't get out of that thing 18:27:33 Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 18:27:42 you don' 18:27:44 don't 18:28:01 well, what do you mean? 18:28:12 you should be able to C-c it if you're in a slime repl 18:28:28 tried that, didn't work 18:28:40 do C-c C-c 18:28:42 anyway, got back to the repl after a few seconds 18:28:59 -!- zolk3ri [~Zol1ka@unaffiliated/zolk3ri] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:31:53 flanfl [~flanfl@ABordeaux-651-1-216-112.w90-45.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 18:32:12 -!- Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 18:32:47 JPeterson [~JPeterson@s213-103-211-4.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 18:33:21 fsvehla [~fsvehla@h081217181184.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 18:33:46 ehu [~ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 18:34:24 how can I see the functions from cl-irc? installed it using quicklisp, but couldn't find any documentation in the site 18:35:23 paul0: there are examples, but the exported functions should be documented as well. 18:35:25 paul0: http://www.gnu.org/software/libc/manual/html_node/Termination-Signals.html <-- if you are on UNIX or a posix-like, SIGINT is quite specifically a signal sent to interrupt :) normally C-c, and it works at the terminal REPL for SBCL at least. 18:35:44 when they're not, please send patches for the devs to commit. 18:35:59 paul0: with SLIME it's C-c C-d p cl-irc RET 18:36:42 Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 18:36:56 daimrod: thanks 18:37:06 I guess, this freezes my emacs... 18:41:52 -!- flanfl [~flanfl@ABordeaux-651-1-216-112.w90-45.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:43:02 -!- seangrove [~user@c-71-202-126-17.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 18:44:20 -!- jsfb [~jon@unaffiliated/jsfb] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:44:25 xcombelle [~xcombelle@AToulouse-551-1-106-71.w92-149.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 18:46:09 tcr1 [~tcr@84-72-21-32.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 18:46:44 -!- Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:47:07 -!- ignas [~ignas@office.pov.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:49:44 breakds [~breakds@wifi-116.cs.wisc.edu] has joined #lisp 18:51:23 clintm [~user@001e52f0de2b.click-network.com] has joined #lisp 18:57:50 stassats`, ok, fix pushed in 2.26.166 18:57:57 sorry for the breakage. 18:58:27 -!- CampinSam [~user@24-176-103-21.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:59:28 -!- nowhereman_ [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-149-40.w90-48.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:59:36 nowhereman_ [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-112-173.w90-13.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 18:59:36 ouch, fixing one bug in define-package, I created another one 19:00:45 CampinSam [~user@24-176-103-21.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has joined #lisp 19:01:43 jsfb [~jon@unaffiliated/jsfb] has joined #lisp 19:02:50 Jambato [~Jambato@2a01:e35:2f15:c40:211:d8ff:fe7d:2c4a] has joined #lisp 19:03:29 *jasom* learned a statistic that a bugfix in a "sufficiently complicated system" had a 1/3 chance of introducing a new bug 19:03:37 [citation needed] 19:06:20 I should look at how many of my commit messages contain a fix to a recently committed bug. 19:06:33 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-187-57.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:06:37 but yes, it's definitely a large proportion. 19:06:42 -!- arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-aqlloldxbxunvgvd] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:08:16 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@84-72-21-32.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:14:44 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@rrcs-108-178-120-144.sw.biz.rr.com] has quit [] 19:16:33 yup, bad paren during refactoring. Sigh. 19:21:54 -!- yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.169] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:25:17 pnpuff [~dioxyrane@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 19:26:54 -!- Indecipherable [~Indeciphe@41.13.48.228] has quit [Quit: used jmIrc] 19:27:06 AeroNotix [~xeno@abos46.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 19:29:26 Indecipherable [~Indeciphe@41.13.48.228] has joined #lisp 19:32:03 All righty-then. My brand new C++ based CL compiler (six months in the making) just evaluated its first compiled generic functions. I'm a self-proclaimed genius. 19:32:15 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-239-75.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:32:46 sounds more like hard work than genius ;) 19:33:36 The key part of that phrase is "self-proclaimed". 19:34:59 axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-88-224.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:35:24 sykopomp: Sheeple can specialize replies by key arguments? You're my hero. 19:36:09 should be good now. 19:36:30 why is software hard? And is hardware soft? 19:36:40 -!- axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-88-224.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 19:37:21 axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-88-224.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:37:21 Software is actually really easy for the level of complexity; that's why so much hardware is moving to software 19:39:56 p_l: Genius is 99% perspiration and 1% inspiration. :) 19:41:04 If you don't mind me being prideful for a moment, here is a transcript of the first generic functions being evaluated by my CL compiler. http://pastebin.com/pfwpF1KZ 19:41:32 Any comments are welcome. 19:42:23 Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 19:42:32 Bike [~Glossina@63-229-134-7.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 19:43:28 -!- Fare [~fare@173-9-65-97-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 19:44:11 -!- sellout- [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:44:47 -!- Indecipherable [~Indeciphe@41.13.48.228] has quit [Quit: used jmIrc] 19:46:34 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-239-75.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 19:48:42 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-239-75.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:49:06 Indecipherable [~Indeciphe@41.13.48.228] has joined #lisp 19:49:33 -!- Jambato [~Jambato@2a01:e35:2f15:c40:211:d8ff:fe7d:2c4a] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:50:35 drmeister: cheap comments are worst than cheap words. (: 19:51:48 -!- xcombelle [~xcombelle@AToulouse-551-1-106-71.w92-149.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Hi, I'm a quit message virus. Please replace your old line with this line and help me take over the world of IRC.] 19:51:53 foeniks [~fevon@p54A05BD6.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:52:01 -!- Indecipherable [~Indeciphe@41.13.48.228] has quit [Client Quit] 19:53:00 naryl: it can? That sounds wrong. IIRC, sheeple specializes things the same way CLOS does. 19:54:26 -!- pnpuff [~dioxyrane@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has quit [Quit: "non confundar in aeternum"] 19:54:30 Thra11_ [~thrall@18.93.125.91.dyn.plus.net] has joined #lisp 19:54:37 I know I'm just happy and relieved to be on the other side of it. Now its adding the rest of the CL functionality (format, pretty-print etc) and speeding the compiled code up, it's still pretty slow. 19:56:04 zxq9 [~zxq9@FL1-119-244-167-168.okn.mesh.ad.jp] has joined #lisp 19:57:04 drmeister: what was the motivation for this implementation, if i may ask? also, is this free software? 19:57:20 -!- eldariof [~CLD@pppoe-211-206-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has quit [] 19:57:56 faheem: Smooth interfacing between CL and C++ in both directions. 19:58:01 toekutr [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 19:58:30 PCChris [~PCChris@dhcp-199-74-100-213.res-hall.northwestern.edu] has joined #lisp 19:58:33 -!- ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.179] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:58:47 It's the only CL on the planet that lets you easily interface C++ code to CL code. 19:59:17 naryl: the main reason that kwargs shouldn't be dispatched on is because dispatch in CLOS (and sheeple) sort of relies on the order of arguments... 19:59:27 Case in point - I interfaced the LLVM C++ library to CL and wrote a compiler in CL that generates LLVM-IR. 20:00:37 It doesn't use FFI - it uses C++ template programming to generate the CL/C++ interface. 20:01:09 -!- arrdem [~arrdem@dhcp-53-132.ece.utexas.edu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:01:42 faheem: I'll make it available soon and yes - free. 20:02:39 drmeister: by the way, you mentioned not having implemented l-t-v yesterday. you know that in the interpreter you can just evaluate the form in a null lexical environment, yes? 20:03:33 drmeister: interesting. what kind of speed expectations do you have for it? 20:03:34 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:03:52 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:07:17 Dalek_Baldwin [~Adium@ip68-4-131-254.oc.oc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 20:08:17 sdemarre [~serge@109.134.128.207] has joined #lisp 20:08:27 faheem: Right now it's about 100x slower than SBCL. But it's 50x faster than my interpreter (code-walker). 20:09:10 drmeister: ok. have you any idea how much faster you can get it? 20:09:24 faheem: I've got a built in profiler and calling functions is very expensive right now because I pass all arguments on the heap in activation frames. 20:09:28 100x slower than sbcl sounds like around Python/Ruby speed 20:09:38 slyrus [~chatzilla@173-228-44-92.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 20:10:13 python and ruby speeds aren't that comparable 20:10:35 faheem: I plan to move to calling functions with varargs and inlining all my primitives. 20:10:44 drmeister: don't know what an activation frame is 20:10:46 drmeister: I'm very impressed 20:11:12 dlowe: well, ballpark estimates. 20:11:29 killerboy [~mateusz@217.17.38.43] has joined #lisp 20:11:48 Also, all of my types are wrapped in classes so integer and floating point calculations go through a lot of boxing and unboxing. I need to lower that down to IR operations. 20:12:06 telebyte [~unknown@9-35.60-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 20:12:12 dlowe: Thank you very much. 20:12:20 -!- telebyte [~unknown@9-35.60-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Client Quit] 20:13:39 faheem: An activation frame is just a count of objects, an array of those objects and a pointer to the next activation frame (that's how I use the term). 20:14:15 faheem: Each LET/LET*/FLET/LABELS generates an activation frame. 20:15:02 I also pass arguments to functions in activation frames so that if the arguments are captured in a closure the closure just links to the activation frame. 20:15:12 faheem: heap activation records are an easy way to get closures, as lambda can include a reference tothe activation frame 20:15:16 pw_ [~user@91-64-34-40-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 20:15:25 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-239-75.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:15:44 -!- pw_ [~user@91-64-34-40-dynip.superkabel.de] has left #lisp 20:16:23 drmeister: i see. thanks. 20:16:44 jasom: thanks 20:16:45 I also need garbage collection. Currently I just use reference counting. I'm surprised how far that has gotten me. 20:16:57 drmeister: check out MPS for garbage collection 20:17:07 drmeister: is reference counting slower than garbage collection? 20:17:13 drmeister: in my toy implementation I made activation frames with alists 20:17:17 it has a lot of overhead. 20:17:22 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-239-75.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 20:17:25 Bike: ok 20:17:41 jasom: What is MPS? 20:17:43 faheem: it has more overhead, typically shorter pauses, and can't handle circular references 20:17:44 tricky to deal with cyclic structures, too 20:18:11 drmeister: http://www.ravenbrook.com/project/mps/ 20:18:20 -!- Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:19:07 ltu says it's from Harlequin? Is that the Lisp Harlequin? 20:19:26 kuzary [~who@gateway/tor-sasl/kuzary] has joined #lisp 20:19:39 drmeister: http://www.ravenbrook.com/project/mps/master/manual/wiki/gc.html for the 30-second version of how to do GC with it 20:19:50 Another cool thing I plan to do is expose the Clang/LLVM C++ parser and source-to-source translation library into CL. That will enable me to write programs to improve my C++ code-base. Google is doing it with C++ on the 100 million line code-base. 20:20:10 Jambato [~Jambato@2a01:e35:2f15:c40:211:d8ff:fe7d:2c4a] has joined #lisp 20:20:32 -!- agumonkey [~agu@177.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20:20:41 That problem is crying out for lisp. 20:22:25 agumonkey [~agu@177.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 20:23:39 jasom: Thank you very much - MPS looks useful. 20:24:11 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@173-228-44-92.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:24:43 arrdem [~arrdem@dhcp-53-132.ece.utexas.edu] has joined #lisp 20:24:56 drmeister: you would drive C++ source-code transformation from CL? 20:25:23 slyrus [~chatzilla@173-228-44-92.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 20:25:30 zolk3ri [~Zol1ka@unaffiliated/zolk3ri] has joined #lisp 20:27:36 prxq: Yes C++ source-code transformation from CL. The current way is to write g*d-awful C++ code to construct trees to recognize patterns in the C++ AST. That problem needs lisp sexps. 20:29:11 -!- axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-88-224.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.0] 20:29:27 -!- zolk3ri1 [~Zol1ka@catv-89-132-196-182.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 20:29:37 -!- dim [~dim@orion.naquadah.org] has quit [Excess Flood] 20:29:39 sounds like an idea that can only be explained by its historical inception. Use a completely baroque language to encode programs, and use one with simple syntax to write software that operates on that. 20:29:57 dim [~dim@orion.naquadah.org] has joined #lisp 20:34:07 prxq: Absolutely but history aside, there is huge value in better tools for C++ refactoring. Clang-llvm provides the brawn (ability to parse C++ into an AST and search the AST) - CL could provide the brains. 20:34:42 Except for the weird anomaly that CL doesn't talk to C++ - I've fixed that. 20:34:57 zolk3ri1 [~Zol1ka@catv-89-132-196-182.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 20:36:12 drmeister: so a major use for this tool is to work on C++ code? 20:36:20 Or not so "weird anomaly" more like "long line of stupid design choices on the part of C++ designers". 20:37:18 axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-88-224.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:37:19 faheem: No, it's to build molecules. I'm a professor of Chemistry and my group is developing sophisticated nanotechnology. I need smart software to help us design catalysts, new drugs and molecular devices that runs on large supercomputers using thousands of nodes. 20:37:26 normanrichards [~normanric@rrcs-108-178-120-144.sw.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:38:28 I choose CL as my domain specific language. 20:38:36 -!- zolk3ri [~Zol1ka@unaffiliated/zolk3ri] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:38:56 drmeister: wow. i didn't know professors of chemistry knew so much about software 20:39:37 faheem: I bet a large fraction of the FORTRAN code in the world was writen by chemistry professors 20:39:37 -!- Dalek_Baldwin [~Adium@ip68-4-131-254.oc.oc.cox.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:39:50 Chemists love their FORTRAN. 20:40:02 Computational chemists that is. 20:40:18 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-239-75.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:40:41 drmeister: fortran yes. writing custom lisp implemnentations, not so much 20:41:40 svs_ [~svs@104-252-AGAVEBB-NM.abq.nm.agavebb.net] has joined #lisp 20:41:53 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-239-75.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 20:41:57 drmeister: what is your institution? 20:41:57 Programming and systems development is my passion. Some people knit to relax - I write code. A few hours a day, every day for 34 years. 20:42:05 drmeister: wow 20:42:22 drmeister: are you an experimental chemist? 20:42:46 Temple University Chemistry Department - my name is Christian Schafmeister. 20:42:57 it sounds more like the theoretical side, but i can't really tell 20:43:04 faheem: Yes, synthetic organic chemistry. 20:43:09 drmeister: yes, i've heard of Temple 20:43:21 My web page isn't much to speak of - I've been busy writing code. 20:43:26 I've seen chemists use a thing called molec, written in "portable standard lisp: 20:43:33 s/:/"/ 20:43:46 drmeister: i was reading some quite entertainingly horrific stuff about what phds and postdocs go through in that area. 20:44:19 E.g. http://rezaghadiri.net/ 20:44:21 prxq: I don't know what molec is - google doesn't provide. 20:44:42 I don't have any first hand knowledge of the field. my areas of expertise are quite far away from chemistry 20:44:47 n0vember [~n0vember@liberacescursedpiano.org] has joined #lisp 20:46:05 Reza is a buddy of mine. Chemistry is intense - chemists are not like normal people - we all exist somewhere on the Asperger's spectrum - and I mean that in the nicest possible way. We need more people who put their heads down and work hard on complex problems. 20:46:26 Qworkescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 20:46:28 drmeister: small world 20:46:35 -!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:46:47 drmeister: but do you cook meth? 20:46:53 drmeister: might be a german thing. If you google "portable standard lisp" and "molec" you get a few hits 20:47:33 stassats: No, I also don't veer into oncoming traffic. 20:48:47 -!- tensorpudding [~tensorpud@99.23.126.244] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:49:46 drmeister: possibly dumb question, but why do you need to work with C++ for your projects? Is just CL not an option? Or just Ocaml, alternatively? I guess you need good performance. 20:50:29 tensorpudding [~tensorpud@99.148.199.201] has joined #lisp 20:51:12 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-166-60.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:52:10 If I knew 5 years ago what I know now I might have done everything in CL. But then again - CL + LLVM offers some awesome capabilities (CL driven GPU programming) that would be difficult to do with something like SBCL. I don't know. I know what I've done and I know what I can do with it now. 20:53:11 drmeister: to be frank, i have serious doubts about CL being decent on the gpu. however i'm very very eager to see the results. and if it runs, i'd love to give it a test spin. 20:53:41 drmeister: one question - how are you going to drive GPUs with LLVM? Do you have any vendor's doc for the command streams? 20:53:51 drmeister: do you expect to release a version (and will that be in a few months, or in a few years?) 20:53:58 I wrote about 250,000 lines of C++ that builds molecules and exposed it to python using boost::python. Python looks great in introductory textbooks on programming. Tens of thousands of lines of python gets very, very tedious. 20:54:40 (while LLVM is part of the OpenCL reference implementation and used in at least one implementation - AMDs - it's not important outside of being a quicker way to implement OpenCL-to-GPU compiler) 20:55:05 drmeister: i've used python + boost python + C++ myself for some years now. boost python is an impressive technical accomplishment. the question is, do i really want to use it 20:55:14 cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has joined #lisp 20:55:20 madnificent: You don't put CL on the GPU. You use CL to sequence instructions in intelligent ways on the GPU. CL is a compiler framework for converting algorithms into machine code and it just happens to be a general purpose language as well. 20:55:21 perhaps it is better to admire it at a distance, like the pyramids. 20:56:09 i do suggest that we don't all start attacking drmeister with questions. it's an interesting thing to do. and i hope he maintains a healty pace. 20:56:31 drmeister: that can make sense, given you present the right abstractions to the user, obviously. 20:56:32 -!- Jambato [~Jambato@2a01:e35:2f15:c40:211:d8ff:fe7d:2c4a] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:56:36 I hope he releases it soon so others can pitch in 20:56:44 i hope for a pony 20:56:50 hi people 20:57:00 i hope he doesn't release so i don't have to find bugs in it! i've got enough implementations to do that already 20:57:08 my lisp program was a complete success! 20:57:12 A pony is a pretty low bar for life 20:57:20 Madnificent: No worries. Ponies for everyone! 20:57:30 stassats`: you're nullifying my hope. stop doing that! 20:57:46 dlowe: pick on someone else. i want a pony! 20:57:51 I agree. Everyone deserves a pony. 20:57:51 drmeister: Still, good luck and I hope for the best. Definitely better news than reading nth iteration of political scandals hitting too close (which is... constant for last... ok, long time now) 20:57:55 Posterdati: what did you build? 20:58:06 -!- snowylike [~sn@91-67-171-156-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:58:23 a qt interface to solve a geometric problem 20:58:31 using simulated annealing 20:58:40 ah right, you were doing qt. Posterdati screenshot!! 20:58:48 ok 20:59:00 i thought i saw some project recently for doing CL on a GPU 20:59:08 faheem: cl-gpu? 20:59:30 Posterdati: My first CL program used simulated annealing to set up interview schedules between ~20 faculty and ~25 students. Powerful stuff. 20:59:50 ah, yes. http://stackoverflow.com/questions/6047098/any-lisp-extensions-for-cuda 20:59:59 daimrod: cl-cuda 21:00:07 drmeister: simply surprisingly 21:01:27 -!- PCChris [~PCChris@dhcp-199-74-100-213.res-hall.northwestern.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:01:55 madnificent: http://picpaste.com/hoh_02-X3j5jAq9.png 21:06:08 -!- ikki [~ikki@187.240.179.216] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 21:07:32 Posterdati: looks like a real app. was it hard to construct? 21:07:38 dr 21:07:59 Indecipherable [~Indeciphe@41.10.95.73] has joined #lisp 21:08:13 madnificent: a bit, it misses some features like file dialogs 21:08:22 but it's a demo 21:08:30 I've got time do develop 21:09:47 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-239-75.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:09:59 Posterdati: the last is a good thing :) 21:10:11 yes 21:10:27 the problem is that I need a cffi interface to opennurbs 21:11:34 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-239-75.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 21:13:00 madnificent: I'm trying to use swig to do so 21:13:51 ThomasH [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/thomash] has joined #lisp 21:13:56 Greetings lispers 21:13:58 -!- Indecipherable [~Indeciphe@41.10.95.73] has quit [Quit: used jmIrc] 21:16:37 (greetings '|ThomasH|) 21:17:25 -!- SrPx [~SrPx@177.98.102.25] has quit [Quit: SrPx] 21:19:17 -!- Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 21:21:20 ikki [~ikki@187.208.230.66] has joined #lisp 21:24:39 SrPx [~SrPx@177.98.102.25] has joined #lisp 21:26:22 -!- ahungry [~null@66.184.106.97] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:27:09 was there a specific reason SBCL 1.1.0 was released instead of 1.0.59, or was it just "59 is a high number"? 21:27:09 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:27:22 -!- Demosthenex [~Demosthen@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:27:27 mathrick, talk to drewc 21:27:33 there's info on the sbcl mailing lists 21:27:43 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:27:49 mathrick: pretty much the latter. 21:28:11 drewc: ^ around to answer perhaps? 21:28:22 ah, fair enough 21:28:35 -!- axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-88-224.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:29:03 sbcl-1.1 more or less concides with MSFT becoming a real platform. 21:29:28 pkhuong: I was reading about your earlier adventures with safepoints, does the current implementation as contributed by Anton perform any better, or is it included because windows threads need it? 21:29:41 easye: right, that makes sense 21:30:10 Posterdati: CommonQt? 21:30:33 yeah, I would gave to look at the lists myself, but IIRC pkhuong is a) right and b) has a lot more knowledge of such things 21:31:35 drewc: you should use modern mode 21:31:56 'invert FTW 21:32:41 Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has joined #lisp 21:32:57 felideon: yes 21:37:27 gwty_ [~gwty@106.213.110.224] has joined #lisp 21:38:41 -!- ikki [~ikki@187.208.230.66] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 21:40:19 -!- sdemarre [~serge@109.134.128.207] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:40:50 -!- fsvehla [~fsvehla@h081217181184.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Quit: fsvehla] 21:41:21 jynnantonix [~textual@140.247.0.98] has joined #lisp 21:43:50 -!- clintm [~user@001e52f0de2b.click-network.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:45:10 drmeister: simulated annealing is cool :) lol 21:45:41 -!- gwty_ [~gwty@106.213.110.224] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:46:29 fsvehla [~fsvehla@h081217181184.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 21:46:48 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@173-228-44-92.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:47:54 Demosthenex [~Demosthen@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 21:50:14 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.99.39] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 21:50:34 AeroNoti1 [~xeno@aboa23.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 21:50:43 kmels [~kmels@frbg-4d029b3a.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 21:51:03 -!- AeroNoti1 [~xeno@aboa23.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Client Quit] 21:51:24 AeroNoti1 [~xeno@aboa23.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 21:52:08 -!- AeroNoti1 [~xeno@aboa23.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Client Quit] 21:53:11 -!- AeroNotix [~xeno@abos46.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:53:35 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:53:56 -!- newblue [~newblue@121.11.97.93] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 21:54:22 bananagram [~bot@c-98-198-236-112.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:54:30 newblue [~newblue@121.11.97.93] has joined #lisp 21:54:42 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-239-75.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 21:56:26 -!- fsvehla [~fsvehla@h081217181184.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Quit: fsvehla] 21:56:36 -!- segv- [~mb@dslb-094-223-015-209.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:56:44 segv- [~mb@dslb-094-223-015-209.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 21:57:00 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-239-75.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 21:57:19 fsvehla [~fsvehla@h081217181184.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 21:57:23 AeroNotix [~xeno@aboa23.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 21:59:44 mathrick: both. 22:00:08 There are some things that work better with safepoints, other without... but windows without safepoints is hard. 22:00:42 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:01:02 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:01:32 pkhuong: I see. Is there then a reason to prefer safepoints on POSIX, now or in the foreseeable future? 22:02:01 -!- Ue [~Ue@gateway/tor-sasl/ue] has quit [Quit: ] 22:02:43 -!- answer_42 [~answer_42@gateway/tor-sasl/answer42/x-66983568] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:02:58 alien callbacks in foreign threads, already. 22:05:21 pkhuong: is there a plan for enabling them unconditionally ? 22:07:35 fe[nl]ix: lichtblau would know. I think they're nicer to work with, and have a marginal downside at worst, but I don't really go spelunking around that part of the code. 22:08:07 -!- _d3f [~freedo@95.211.188.251] has quit [Quit: ~ The Gnu went back to savannah ~] 22:08:46 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:09:23 youlysses [~user@75-132-17-145.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 22:10:59 -!- honkfestival [~honkfesti@198-84-183-94.cpe.teksavvy.com] has quit [] 22:11:54 tcr1 [~tcr@84-72-21-32.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 22:12:31 -!- [SLB] is now known as [SLB]` 22:13:10 add^_ [~add^_@m83-190-167-197.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 22:16:21 -!- [SLB]` is now known as [SLB] 22:18:45 Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 22:21:51 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-4d011939.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:22:47 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:22:52 -!- stat_vi 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