00:00:14 get monotonic time is one 00:00:42 gave hu.dwim the fits as it depends on it frequently 00:01:03 danlentz: make sure you use the version in the git repository 00:01:04 i know i should have i apologize 00:01:28 -!- honkfestival [~honkfesti@198-84-183-94.cpe.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 00:01:44 dto [60fc3e0d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.96.252.62.13] has joined #lisp 00:02:05 its just when they happen what i'm most focused on is putting together a fix so i can rerturn to whatever i was trying to do in the first place 00:02:32 -!- stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-029-095.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 00:03:12 danlentz: the easy way is to put your version on github where I can see it and maybe import the fix myself 00:03:21 -!- arrk13 [~arrakis24@dslb-188-109-195-045.pools.arcor-ip.net] has left #lisp 00:03:27 ah good idea 00:04:01 sometimes I don't understand the changes and will ask for clarifications, but it's still way better 00:05:01 the troll seems to have been driven away, apparently 00:05:26 at least till they figure the need for new IP 00:05:57 many times also im not very familiar with whatever the issue may be and so there is a process of trial and error -- not code i feel is worthy of foisting on other 00:07:48 and by the time i develop confidence in the fix the whole incident is put out of mind 00:09:09 i will put a repo of what i have and try to help clean it up where needed 00:09:26 -!- puchacz [~puchacz@46-65-36-47.zone16.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 00:09:51 -!- youlysses [~user@75-132-17-145.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:10:30 what I have is stable and currently problem-free supporting the whole hu.dwim ecosystem 00:11:39 although i had to move back to select (2) backend for the event stuff of hu.dwim.web-server 00:11:46 why ? 00:13:25 well the kqueue multiplexer constantly generated EINVALs iirc 00:13:50 i really need to refresh my memory 00:14:00 -!- otwieracz [~gonet9@v6.gen2.org] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:14:37 error 22 when no events harvested or something along those lines? 00:14:45 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:15:52 select was more than sufficient to the task at hand so i was happy it worked 00:16:46 i was totally preparted to go full-on polling, so select was actually good news to me 00:17:35 otwieracz [~gonet9@v6.gen2.org] has joined #lisp 00:18:48 also I think i added a trivial method to do something like default-backend-classname-for-platform to abstract over hu.dwim which hard-coded epoll 00:20:13 part of the whole effort of porting the hu.dwim suite to run on darwin 00:20:18 I see 00:20:32 it wasnt all that bad 00:20:37 the kqueue muxer was written on freebsd 00:20:54 so I wouldn't be surprised if osx caused problems 00:21:42 y what iolib really needs is just a system of testing more than anything else. There were no huge problems 00:22:12 just little tjings broken here and there 00:23:02 a lot of it is really nice actually -- please dont misconstrue what I'm saying as criticism 00:25:03 And the issues im sure would be trivial matters for someone more knowledgeable in the specific technical subject matter. 00:25:30 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@rrcs-108-178-120-144.sw.biz.rr.com] has quit [] 00:25:58 honkfestival [~honkfesti@198-84-183-94.cpe.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 00:26:36 if only there were a way to easily run tests on multiple OSes 00:26:41 But alas i usually need to do a bit of research in order to zero in on what exactly is going on 00:26:53 cl-test-grid? 00:26:58 danlentz: I don't mind criticism :) 00:27:02 zoze [~KeMVTBLZs@189.11.198.38] has joined #lisp 00:27:14 doesn't it do that? 00:27:57 -!- Joreji [~thomas@84-182.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:27:59 no, that's not it 00:28:46 Joreji [~thomas@84-182.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 00:29:47 -!- zolk3ri [~Zol1ka@unaffiliated/zolk3ri] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:32:05 -!- edgar-rft [~GOD@HSI-KBW-149-172-63-75.hsi13.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Quit: brain damage] 00:32:57 zolk3ri [~zolk3ri@unaffiliated/zolk3ri] has joined #lisp 00:35:49 Oh41 [~VxBdCLHyF@189.11.198.38] has joined #lisp 00:37:06 -!- dto [60fc3e0d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.96.252.62.13] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 00:37:37 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:37:42 hello 00:38:13 how can I get enlightened? 00:38:29 -!- Joreji [~thomas@84-182.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 00:39:08 Joreji [~thomas@84-182.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 00:40:05 tcr1 [~tcr@84-72-21-32.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 00:40:26 member:fe%5Bnl%5Dix: my live iolib srcs are at http://github.com/danlentz/iolib-darwin-hu 00:40:30 did the parentheses disappear for u guys? 00:41:28 -!- groovy2shoes [~cory@unaffiliated/groovebot] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 00:41:43 thephoeron [~thephoero@CPE0024369f3a03-CM00194792a698.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 00:42:01 Oh41: practical common lisp is pretty good for learning CL. There's also SICP. 00:42:15 fe(nl)ix: i mean 00:42:17 isn't it scheme? 00:42:43 in SICP the prog. language is scheme right? 00:43:00 yes. 00:43:55 danlentz: I'll see what I can do with it 00:44:00 fe(nl)ix: it was quickly hacked together into whatever iolib src was distributed as part of quicklisp at the time 00:44:14 it would be more helpful to commit against the iolib source tree 00:44:26 ok 00:45:00 i'm very sorry i didnt start from a git repo it would have made things much easier for you 00:45:26 yes 00:46:58 Casio_D_Luffy [~mtByRNdo@177.3.227.130] has joined #lisp 00:47:00 hai 00:47:08 -!- Oh41 [~VxBdCLHyF@189.11.198.38] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:47:08 -!- zoze [~KeMVTBLZs@189.11.198.38] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:47:09 -!- Casio_D_Luffy [~mtByRNdo@177.3.227.130] has quit [Excess Flood] 00:47:43 at the time i had no idea that the changes i was making were anything other than experimental hack 00:48:08 yAPKuJDn26245 [~YGXlcVzO@82.114.95.238] has joined #lisp 00:48:33 i was actually thinking the odds of getting hu.dwim/iolib working were extremely low 00:48:33 -!- yAPKuJDn26245 is now known as Casio_D_Laffy 00:50:15 we can delete this repo, but i wanted to at least get something up there you could look at if you wanted 00:51:24 -!- Casio_D_Laffy [~YGXlcVzO@82.114.95.238] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:51:32 -!- Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-72-66-99-183.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:52:08 fe(nl)ix: the changes are limited to os and multiplex and the system/package file 00:55:33 -!- bitonic` is now known as bitonic 00:55:39 thanks 00:56:35 cfy [~ilisp@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 00:57:03 fe(nl)ix: in particular in os-unix, get-file-kind was broken and replaced with one using system calls from osicat 00:58:34 for get-monotonic-time I just outright replaced where needed with the identical osicat call 00:59:48 selOQhAH15588 [~WwrfYghR@58.218.185.86] has joined #lisp 00:59:54 you should try the git version 01:00:14 after all, I think it's what attila uses too 01:00:35 -!- selOQhAH15588 [~WwrfYghR@58.218.185.86] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:01:43 fepuRzPk23292 [~SeOTEgtH@58.218.185.86] has joined #lisp 01:02:14 -!- fepuRzPk23292 [~SeOTEgtH@58.218.185.86] has quit [Client Quit] 01:05:05 -!- aoh [~aki@adsl-99-115.netplaza.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:05:12 aoh [~aki@adsl-99-115.netplaza.fi] has joined #lisp 01:05:15 spmcnamara [~spmcnamar@ip-64-134-39-50.public.wayport.net] has joined #lisp 01:06:26 -!- spmcnamara is now known as tank` 01:07:35 also in create-process-unix there were problems with waitpid i believe -- have a look at process-status 01:10:12 PCChris [~PCChris@wireless-165-124-86-253.nuwlan.northwestern.edu] has joined #lisp 01:11:35 Hi all. n00b question for you. I'm persisting some data to file, and am doing it with strings that are read friendly so I can easily parse the data on the way back in. I'm using FORMAT to output to the filestream. When I do this, the contents of the list appear to have newlines automatically inserted to keep the line-length of the string < the terminal width (although I'm note sure that's what's happening.) Shou 01:11:36 ld I be using something other than format, or is there a directive I can use to stop this behavior? I converted the code to output with PRIN1, but had the same end result. 01:13:24 yes you're right of course. At some point this cleanup had to happen. OTOH i was also concerned about making matters worse by incorporating too many changes at once. I mean, it was problems with the hu.dwim code I was attempting to fix in the first place, so at the time swapping in a lot more of it was not something I was eager to do 01:13:26 tank`: if you write something to a stream with write, and all contents can be read back in, then it should just work TM 01:14:09 tank`: could you explain where the combination of read + write is making it so that you can't read the data back? 01:14:53 madnificent: Thanks. yes you are right that it works just fine. From an aesthetic standpoint, the data file is nicer for human consumption if I can get rid of the spurious newlines since it then results in one record per line. Just wondering if there is an easy way to allow for that. 01:15:34 tank`: IIRC there is a parameter to set the max column whith. 01:15:48 tank`: you should then, i presume, add a newline after each s-expression 01:15:51 (manually) 01:16:30 madnificent: Right, I do the newline bit already. I'll take a look for that column width param. Thanks. 01:17:02 tank`: (write ... :print-right-margin nil) 01:17:32 Ah. Didn't try using write. Will make that change. Thanks! 01:17:36 :right-margin, you mean? 01:17:55 tank`: as per http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/v_pr_rig.htm and http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_wr_pr.htm 01:18:36 Bike: yup, i was being a dumb kid that can't read. << tank` 01:18:52 I should RTFM more closely. 01:18:54 tank`: you can also do (let ((*print-pretty* nil)) (format stream ...)) 01:19:00 "If it is nil, the right margin is taken to be the maximum line length such that output can be displayed without wraparound or truncation." 01:19:06 I don't think that disallows newlines. 01:19:49 tank`: honestly, i think you need to figure out where you should start looking. sometimes that can be a pain. if you find a related method, finding it in the clhs and reading the related chapters (click the up arrow on top of the page) tends to help. 01:20:23 Bike: no, you could be printing to a terminal... you'll need newlines to print the content then 01:21:01 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-5f75ffab.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:21:05 madnificent: You are absolutely correct that I should have found this in the hyperspec. Apologies all. 01:21:31 don't worry about that, *print-right-margin* isn't exactly something people immediately remember 01:21:56 tank`: no, i was not saying that! i was saying that it is hard and that your question was warranted for. :D you may have been able to find it, but i found the question sane. glad you got an answer. 01:26:35 fe[nl]ix: it seems like in most cases grepping for "osicat" or "sb-posix" or actually just "sb-" is a useful indicator of anything i changed 01:29:33 normanrichards [~normanric@70.114.215.220] has joined #lisp 01:31:22 -!- luqui [~luqui@75-166-107-43.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: luqui] 01:33:06 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-4d003da9.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 01:35:30 -!- PCChris [~PCChris@wireless-165-124-86-253.nuwlan.northwestern.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:37:28 -!- antonv [5d7d2a66@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.42.102] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 01:38:48 -!- ebobby [~fms@189.170.16.14] 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[~Strigoide@60-234-213-126.bitstream.orcon.net.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 03:26:43 Obviously, I hadn't updated poiu to work incrementally since I changed traverse to maybe walk over actions twice. 03:26:55 dous [~dous@unaffiliated/dous] has joined #lisp 03:27:24 Strigoides [~Strigoide@60-234-213-126.bitstream.orcon.net.nz] has joined #lisp 03:27:59 -!- stardiviner [~stardivin@122.236.243.8] has quit [Quit: my website: http://stardiviner.dyndns-blog.com/] 03:31:16 i have a list of elements and a predicate... what's an elegant way to sort the list, such that all true elements come before all false elements? 03:32:59 I'd suggest collecting into two lists and then doing a destructive append. 03:33:18 Then you can do it in O(N). 03:33:40 -!- dous [~dous@unaffiliated/dous] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 03:34:51 leoncamel [~leoncamel@124.126.222.38] has joined #lisp 03:35:48 lusory [~lusory@bb42-60-31-187.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 03:38:03 robot-beethoven: (sort (copy-list '(1 2 3 4 5)) (lambda (a b) (and a (not b))) :test #'evenp) 03:38:32 robot-beethoven: check clhs of sort 03:40:02 robot-beethoven: if you want your code to be readable, it may be wise to figure out a good name for (lambda (a b) (and a (not b))) and build a function for it, that'll make the sort look better. i included a copy-list because sort may destruct your original list (which tends to be a source of bugs for me). 03:41:12 -!- francisl [~anonymous@69.157.141.16] has quit [Quit: francisl] 03:42:32 converse implication? :P 03:43:36 Bike: i know you want to say something smart, but it is too late for me to even remotely get it. dumbify it for me please. 03:43:48 Bike: oh, the name for the function? 03:43:54 yes 03:44:00 probably wouldn't actually clear anything up 03:44:14 no, it could. i was thinking more along the lines of order-by-t 03:44:39 or truethy-order 03:45:04 oh, converse implication is (or a (not b)), oops. 03:45:31 (and a (not b)) is "nonimplication", which is even less helpful! 03:45:40 -!- hydan [~udzinari@ip-89-102-13-27.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 03:45:54 it is also not descriptive of what you want to do, it describes how to do it 03:46:07 it is like using and instead of when, when when is appropriate 03:46:35 -!- sw2wolf{away} [~czsq888@171.212.202.222] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:47:51 -!- findiggle [~kirkwood@50-194-56-154-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:49:58 francisl [~anonymous@69.157.141.16] has joined #lisp 03:52:58 ahungry [~null@99-40-10-216.lightspeed.livnmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:53:30 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@217.17.38.43] has quit [Quit: leaving] 03:56:31 Bike_ [~Glossina@63-229-134-7.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 03:56:47 -!- Bike [~Glossina@63-229-134-7.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 03:56:52 -!- Bike_ is now known as Bike 03:59:21 hi all 03:59:55 stardiviner [~stardivin@218.74.180.199] has joined #lisp 04:00:32 -!- Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:02:43 dnolen [~user@cpe-74-64-61-245.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:03:45 -!- benny [~user@i577A78A5.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 04:10:35 -!- kofno [~kofno@cpe-24-165-210-251.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:18:24 -!- b1rkh0ff [~b1rkh0ff@109.163.158.168] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:19:19 b1rkh0ff [~b1rkh0ff@31.176.152.170] has joined #lisp 04:19:20 -!- Fiora [~Fiora@ec2-50-17-93-47.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 04:23:49 browndawg [~browndawg@117.201.181.61] has joined #lisp 04:29:34 -!- sellout- [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:31:41 madnificent: what about (defun more-truthy (a b) (and a (not b)))? 04:33:06 or perhaps more-truthy-p 04:34:29 truth-comparator 04:35:54 -!- LiamH [~none@pool-173-48-164-128.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: 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[~thomas@84-182.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 05:13:18 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-185-82-146.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:13:53 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-185-82-146.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:15:44 drmeiste_ [~drmeister@pool-71-185-82-146.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:16:02 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-185-82-146.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:20:03 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 05:22:10 hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@46.233.244.56] has joined #lisp 05:22:56 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 05:23:55 groovy2shoes [~cory@unaffiliated/groovebot] has joined #lisp 05:24:20 robot: bucket sort! 05:24:59 Zhivago is spot on, here. 05:25:18 you can do it in one pass using collect ... into, too 05:25:47 weie [~eie@softbank221078042071.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 05:25:47 *Fare* gets POIU fixed. 05:27:58 masonm [~masonm@109.227.36.174] has joined #lisp 05:37:39 kofno [~kofno@cpe-24-165-210-251.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 05:41:56 -!- kofno [~kofno@cpe-24-165-210-251.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:42:40 -!- groovy2shoes [~cory@unaffiliated/groovebot] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 05:45:47 -!- zacts [~user@unaffiliated/zacts] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:59:15 -!- DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:00:43 -!- linse [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1177917310.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: zzzz] 06:02:55 DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has joined #lisp 06:03:25 -!- masonm [~masonm@109.227.36.174] has quit [Quit: masonm] 06:04:26 fantasticsid [~user@180.174.227.70] has joined #lisp 06:08:08 -!- adelgado [~TomSawyer@c-66-229-185-165.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:08:42 browndawg [~browndawg@117.214.171.234] has joined #lisp 06:09:54 Indecipherable 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[~duko@static-72-87-239-154.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 07:08:18 kofno [~kofno@cpe-24-165-210-251.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 07:09:00 -!- breakds [~breakds@ppp-70-226-163-93.dsl.mdsnwi.ameritech.net] has quit [Client Quit] 07:09:11 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@erudite.anarchism.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:09:34 breakds [~breakds@ppp-70-226-163-93.dsl.mdsnwi.ameritech.net] has joined #lisp 07:10:12 cfy` [~ilisp@115.239.3.61] has joined #lisp 07:11:16 -!- cfy [~ilisp@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:13:03 -!- cfy` [~ilisp@115.239.3.61] has quit [Client Quit] 07:13:56 cfy` [~ilisp@115.239.3.61] has joined #lisp 07:15:05 -!- sw2wolf [~czsq888@171.212.202.222] has left #lisp 07:17:04 mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has joined #lisp 07:17:04 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has quit [Changing host] 07:17:04 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 07:19:43 -!- masonm [~masonm@109.227.36.174] has quit [Quit: masonm] 07:20:12 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-188-172.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 07:23:09 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 07:23:25 -!- breakds [~breakds@ppp-70-226-163-93.dsl.mdsnwi.ameritech.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 07:26:35 answer_42 [~answer_42@gateway/tor-sasl/answer42/x-66983568] has joined #lisp 07:27:34 omouse` [~user@24.246.63.243] has joined #lisp 07:28:16 -!- omouse [~user@24.246.63.243] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 07:29:02 Fare: there's load-sysdef calls load-asd in a wrong way 07:29:04 -!- qptain_Nemo [~qN@89.207.216.208] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:29:07 s/there's// 07:31:12 oops - where? 07:31:23 M-. load-sysdef 07:31:45 found it 07:32:14 why isn't sbcl complaining during compile-time? 07:32:54 dunno. That's weird indeed. 07:34:14 Indecipherable [~Indeciphe@41.13.48.92] has joined #lisp 07:34:18 figured it, notinline is causing it 07:34:21 qptain_Nemo [~qN@89.207.216.208] has joined #lisp 07:34:50 -!- brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-142-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 07:37:33 interesting. 07:37:34 -!- setmeaway [~setmeaway@118.45.149.239] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:38:59 foreignFunction [~niksaak@94.27.88.67] has joined #lisp 07:40:01 Fare, Zhivago: thanks for the tip -- i've got it working well with a nice little LOOP 07:40:44 -!- jsfb [~jon@unaffiliated/jsfb] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 07:43:36 ok, so traverse is much slower indeed. Let's find out why. My money is on extra calls to output-files 07:43:49 (which is used in needed-in-image-p) 07:44:50 luqui [~luqui@97-118-116-41.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 07:45:22 benny [~user@i577A860D.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 07:47:09 -!- ngz [~user@77.235.75.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:48:23 ykm [~ykm@124.155.255.227] has joined #lisp 07:49:30 kiuma [~kiuma@2-230-138-74.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 07:56:05 -!- dabd [~dabd@a95-93-205-168.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 07:57:48 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:58:19 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 08:01:31 brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-142-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:03:13 -!- ykm [~ykm@124.155.255.227] has quit [Quit: leaving] 08:06:06 -!- nightfly is now known as nightfly_ 08:10:12 -!- brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-142-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 08:11:31 rdqfdx [~rdqfdx@78.90.88.244] has joined #lisp 08:12:07 I'm not sure exactly how to read sb-sprof output, but yes, whatever is eating time is spending it a lot dealing with pathnames. 08:13:27 The function ASDF/BACKWARD-INTERFACE::TRANSLATE-JAR-PATHNAME is undefined 08:15:31 Fare: that's during ASDF/BACKWARD-INTERFACE:ENABLE-ASDF-BINARY-LOCATIONS-COMPATIBILITY 08:15:51 are you using ABCL? 08:16:00 yes 08:16:50 ok 08:17:04 failed to #+abcl export the function from output-translations. 08:17:10 thanks a lot for the bug report! 08:17:49 pnpuff_ [~dioxirane@95.234.248.8] has joined #lisp 08:18:16 reckler [~reckler@ppp118-208-16-60.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 08:18:21 -!- phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:18:42 -!- kofno [~kofno@cpe-24-165-210-251.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 08:18:53 adelgado [~TomSawyer@c-66-229-185-165.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:19:27 cdidd [~cdidd@95-26-203-75.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 08:20:11 -!- pnpuff_ [~dioxirane@95.234.248.8] has quit [Client Quit] 08:20:27 pnpuff [~dioxirane@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 08:23:23 this slow down is a real bummer 08:24:37 what kind of slow down? 08:24:51 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:26:11 should I have asdf/defsystem transclude fare-memoization as well as asdf-driver? 08:26:27 stassats, I think I have a solution for the slowdown 08:26:32 wait an hour or so 08:26:39 and I'll commit it, if that works 08:26:54 can you make it faster than it was before? 08:27:46 -!- adelgado [~TomSawyer@c-66-229-185-165.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 08:28:08 stassats: possibly, but that's harder 08:28:26 for now, I aim at making it not significantly slower as is the case right now. 08:29:14 *Fare* opts for yes, including memoization with asdf 08:29:50 now, should I do move fare-memoization into the asdf git tree, or keep it separate? 08:30:03 should I make it part of asdf-driver, or keep it separate? 08:30:17 not separate 08:32:14 francogrex [~user@109.134.241.66] has joined #lisp 08:34:26 -!- cfy` [~ilisp@115.239.3.61] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 08:34:34 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.66] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.2.92.1] 08:36:14 leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.66] has joined #lisp 08:37:51 -!- leoncamel [~leoncamel@124.126.222.38] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:37:58 pnpuff_ [~dioxirane@host249-255-dynamic.246-95-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 08:38:09 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 08:38:14 -!- Indecipherable [~Indeciphe@41.13.48.92] has quit [Quit: used jmIrc] 08:41:36 -!- pnpuff [~dioxirane@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:49:28 -!- mrdtt [~mrdtt@171.245.19.91] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:50:19 Patzy [~something@lns-bzn-51f-81-56-151-137.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 08:53:16 mrdtt [~mrdtt@171.245.137.30] has joined #lisp 08:53:28 -!- axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-88-224.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.0-dev] 08:55:14 leoncamel [~leoncamel@124.126.222.38] has joined #lisp 08:56:00 -!- pnpuff_ [~dioxirane@host249-255-dynamic.246-95-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: .] 08:58:41 xcombelle [~xcombelle@AToulouse-551-1-57-89.w92-146.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 08:58:53 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-140-71.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 09:00:01 stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-011-179.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 09:00:11 -!- Fare [~fare@173-9-65-97-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 09:00:12 axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-88-224.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 09:00:22 -!- two- [~1@c-67-171-131-23.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 09:02:16 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-20-18.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 09:04:53 nan_ [~user@178.233.216.230] has joined #lisp 09:04:54 -!- Strigoides [~Strigoide@60-234-213-126.bitstream.orcon.net.nz] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 09:06:37 -!- Bike [~Glossina@63-229-134-7.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 09:07:22 Strigoides [~Strigoide@60-234-213-126.bitstream.orcon.net.nz] has joined #lisp 09:08:15 xcombelle_ [~xcombelle@AToulouse-551-1-106-71.w92-149.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 09:10:50 -!- Codynyx [~cody@173-23-103-44.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 09:10:52 -!- xcombelle [~xcombelle@AToulouse-551-1-57-89.w92-146.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:11:24 -!- Strigoides [~Strigoide@60-234-213-126.bitstream.orcon.net.nz] has quit [Client Quit] 09:12:09 Strigoides [~Strigoide@60-234-213-126.bitstream.orcon.net.nz] has joined #lisp 09:13:04 -!- Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:16:41 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-20-18.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:16:55 ehu [~ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 09:18:58 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-20-18.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 09:21:24 -!- nan_ [~user@178.233.216.230] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:23:39 adelgado [~TomSawyer@c-66-229-185-165.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:27:47 hmm.. land of lisp is somewhat inconsistent in its usage of labels and flet. is there any difference between the two when one defines only a single local function? 09:27:59 -!- adelgado [~TomSawyer@c-66-229-185-165.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:28:16 labels allows the function to be recursive 09:28:21 if that single function doesn't call itself, no difference 09:29:49 ok. it doesn't call itself. 09:29:58 then use flet 09:30:15 alright. 09:30:40 if there are two functions, neither calls neither, use flet too 09:30:45 otherwise, labels 09:32:07 doomlord [~doomlod@host86-162-165-225.range86-162.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 09:32:08 -!- robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 09:33:20 stardiviner [~Instantbi@115.237.157.200] has joined #lisp 09:37:05 (flet ((say-hello (greet) (print greet) (say-hello))) (say-hello "GREETINGS!")) 09:37:30 that was cool. flet establishes the binding only after all definitions have been processed. 09:38:00 so it's possible to define local wrappers around global functions having the same name.. 09:38:55 not really 09:39:02 not? 09:39:30 you can't do that with functions from CL, and it's a bad thing in general 09:39:58 ok 09:40:02 -!- axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-88-224.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:41:01 axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-88-224.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 09:41:03 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-188-172.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:42:38 -!- stardiviner [~Instantbi@115.237.157.200] has quit [Quit: Instantbird 1.3 -- http://www.instantbird.com] 09:43:55 -!- rmathews [~roshan@122.164.152.98] has quit [Quit: ...] 09:48:43 rmathews [~roshan@122.164.152.98] has joined #lisp 09:49:06 thephoeron [~thephoero@CPE0024369f3a03-CM00194792a698.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 09:49:30 bitonic [~user@b0fc070e.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 09:52:09 i'm struggling to understand (flet ((quote-it (x) (list 'quote x))) 09:52:22 where x is a symbol obtained through (read) 09:52:41 why does it return a quoted symbol instead of (literal) (quote x) 09:53:04 Perhaps because the printer is printing (quote x) as 'x? 09:53:06 i.e. a list consisting of two elements, the symbol "quote" and the symbol stored in x 09:53:26 ah, that explains it. thanks! 09:53:44 I might be wrong -- you could test it by wrapping it in another list. 09:54:12 Sorry, by changing quote to something else. 09:54:50 then I get a list of two elements 09:55:06 -!- luqui [~luqui@97-118-116-41.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: luqui] 09:55:15 Then it's the printer. 09:56:44 -!- Strigoides [~Strigoide@60-234-213-126.bitstream.orcon.net.nz] has left #lisp 09:57:28 Strigoides [~owen@60-234-213-126.bitstream.orcon.net.nz] has joined #lisp 09:59:51 hmm. the same thing outputs '2 when I enter 2. 10:00:00 but when I enter '2 in the REPL, 2 is output. 10:00:04 -!- cdidd [~cdidd@95-26-203-75.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:00:14 Try entering (list 'quote 2) 10:00:24 -!- ehu [~ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:00:35 inverse [~inverse@24-119-70-72.cpe.cableone.net] has joined #lisp 10:00:37 yes, the same result, '2 is output. 10:00:41 In the repl you were evaluating '2 which produces 2. 10:00:41 the repl is evaluting 10:00:58 You can try ''2 if you like. 10:01:16 that "worked" (i.e. output '2) 10:01:39 Good. Does anything still surprise you? 10:01:45 hm, but isn't the purpose of ' to prevent evaluation? Why does REPL strip ' from numbers, but not from symbols? 10:02:00 it does "strip" it from symbols 10:02:11 Try 'a 10:02:22 oh :) that was enlightening :) 10:02:37 Numbers are self-evaluating, so (quote 2) returns the same thing as 2 10:02:54 cdidd [~cdidd@95-24-142-98.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 10:03:01 evaluates to the same thing* 10:03:01 Strigoides: unless read-base is 2 10:03:11 true 10:03:18 and probably 100 other complications :) 10:06:48 luqui [~luqui@97-118-116-41.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 10:06:48 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@2-230-138-74.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:07:09 kiuma [~kiuma@2-230-138-74.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 10:08:14 -!- cdidd [~cdidd@95-24-142-98.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:10:38 cdidd [~cdidd@95-28-81-99.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 10:11:58 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-188-172.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 10:15:01 -!- rmathews [~roshan@122.164.152.98] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:15:14 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-188-172.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:17:14 prxq [~mommer@mnhm-590c0bb6.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 10:18:26 fsvehla_ [~fsvehla@h081217181184.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 10:18:42 -!- fsvehla [~fsvehla@h081217181184.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:18:42 -!- fsvehla_ is now known as fsvehla 10:19:21 puchacz [~puchacz@46-65-36-47.zone16.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 10:22:40 -!- axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-88-224.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:24:00 adelgado [~TomSawyer@c-66-229-185-165.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:24:17 -!- puchacz [~puchacz@46-65-36-47.zone16.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 10:28:00 -!- stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-011-179.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 10:28:29 -!- adelgado [~TomSawyer@c-66-229-185-165.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:30:19 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 10:30:31 svetlyak40wt [~svetlyak4@broadband-95-84-141-55.nationalcablenetworks.ru] has joined #lisp 10:30:44 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 10:36:38 -!- francogrex [~user@109.134.241.66] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:36:41 -!- mrdtt [~mrdtt@171.245.137.30] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:38:33 mrdtt [~mrdtt@171.245.148.137] has joined #lisp 10:42:49 axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-88-224.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 10:44:26 pnpuff [~dioxirane@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 10:52:15 -!- browndawg [~browndawg@117.214.172.73] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 10:58:48 sirdancealot1 [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 11:00:24 tcr1 [~tcr@84-72-21-32.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 11:01:53 gravicappa [~gravicapp@176.192.41.70] has joined #lisp 11:04:13 -!- svetlyak40wt [~svetlyak4@broadband-95-84-141-55.nationalcablenetworks.ru] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 11:04:28 svetlyak40wt [~svetlyak4@broadband-95-84-141-55.nationalcablenetworks.ru] has joined #lisp 11:11:24 -!- H4ns changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language . New: Hunchentoot 1.2.11, cl-fad 0.7.0, SBCL 1.1.3, Yason 0.6.3 11:12:39 browndawg [~browndawg@117.214.172.73] has joined #lisp 11:13:46 -!- answer_42 [~answer_42@gateway/tor-sasl/answer42/x-66983568] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:14:45 answer_42 [~answer_42@gateway/tor-sasl/answer42/x-66983568] has joined #lisp 11:15:21 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f755ab6.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 11:18:47 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@176.192.41.70] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 11:19:30 puchacz [~puchacz@46-65-36-47.zone16.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 11:22:39 -!- svetlyak40wt [~svetlyak4@broadband-95-84-141-55.nationalcablenetworks.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:22:42 svetlyak40wt_ [~svetlyak4@broadband-95-84-141-55.nationalcablenetworks.ru] has joined #lisp 11:24:21 adelgado [~TomSawyer@c-66-229-185-165.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:25:42 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-20-18.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 11:27:58 -!- ahoops [~ahoops__@121.96.14.223] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 11:28:16 hydan [~udzinari@ip-89-102-13-27.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 11:28:59 -!- adelgado [~TomSawyer@c-66-229-185-165.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:31:36 brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-142-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:36:08 -!- brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-142-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:36:24 -!- xcombelle_ [~xcombelle@AToulouse-551-1-106-71.w92-149.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:37:55 Ralt_ [~ralt@89-92-204-200.hfc.dyn.abo.bbox.fr] has joined #lisp 11:38:10 -!- gf3 [~gf3@unaffiliated/gf3] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 11:39:12 gf3 [~gf3@unaffiliated/gf3] has joined #lisp 11:39:41 Indecipherable [~Indeciphe@41.13.0.51] has joined #lisp 11:42:10 snowylike [~sn@91-67-171-156-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 11:43:05 -!- gf3 [~gf3@unaffiliated/gf3] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 11:43:14 kmels [~kmels@frbg-5d84fa80.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 11:44:10 stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-236-114.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 11:47:00 -!- worstadmin_ [~worst@174.141.213.33] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:50:15 -!- DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:50:41 esaye [~esaye@cm-84.215.183.202.getinternet.no] has joined #lisp 11:52:31 jokar [~mohsen@unaffiliated/jokar] has joined #lisp 11:53:01 hello All 11:53:19 -!- esaye [~esaye@cm-84.215.183.202.getinternet.no] has quit [Client Quit] 11:53:36 Excuse me, Why lisp is use? 11:53:46 I thought it is for Artificial intelligence 11:54:01 Excuse me, I'm a nongeek that need some information about it 11:55:05 well, it's just a (powerful) programming language 11:55:11 DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has joined #lisp 11:55:31 p_l: Hi, Can you answer my pm? 11:55:35 the AI relation comes from the time when the only other option was FORTRAN (and not 77, but much, much earlier versions) and assembly 11:56:31 jokar: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/introduction-why-lisp.html  see the section Why Lisp? 11:57:01 Keshi [~Keshi@unaffiliated/keshi] has joined #lisp 11:57:08 Thank you 11:57:22 rmathews [~roshan@122.164.166.87] has joined #lisp 12:01:18 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:02:43 gf3 [~gf3@unaffiliated/gf3] has joined #lisp 12:05:08 xcombelle [~xcombelle@AToulouse-551-1-106-71.w92-149.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 12:06:44 hm. taken from another example in land of lisp: (cond (lit ...) ((or caps lit) ...) 12:07:15 does (or) there serve any purpose? i.e., is there any chance of execution continuing to it if lit is true? 12:07:42 clhs cond 12:07:43 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_cond.htm 12:08:54 i know what the spec says :p 12:09:35 the 2nd or doesn't seem to have any purpose, i.e., the condition should be just (caps ..). the question is: is it a bug in the book or in my understanding of cond? 12:10:56 I don't have the book on hand to check, so I can't say exactly... 12:11:21 you could take a look here: http://landoflisp.com/errata.html 12:14:09 oh, thanks. it's mentioned for page 97: Also, there's an unnecessary check of (or caps lit) that can be simplified to caps. 12:14:19 -!- karswell [~user@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:14:35 karswell [~user@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 12:14:36 hmm 12:14:48 I think I can drop the @ for now 12:15:12 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 12:15:50 just need to check if I banned a dynamic IP 12:16:07 p_l: Excuse me, If you are not free now, I can talk to you another time 12:16:11 -!- svetlyak40wt_ [~svetlyak4@broadband-95-84-141-55.nationalcablenetworks.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:17:29 /join #cs101 12:17:39 -!- ChanServ has set mode -o p_l 12:17:41 ups 12:18:38 p_l: the one you banned yesterday is static 12:19:00 blawiz [~DD@200.236.16.62.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 12:19:21 prxq: yeah, just checked 12:19:29 is it easy to use lisp with linux commandline tools? (eg sed, awk) 12:19:50 blawiz: well, unix cli is generally easy to pipe together 12:20:04 that's the point of its existence, in a way 12:20:18 just remember that some CL implementations have hefty startup times 12:20:34 -!- pnpuff [~dioxirane@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has quit [Quit: .] 12:20:37 p_l ok :] 12:20:39 (doesn't matter when you're piping a giant XML file for transformation) 12:21:07 zolk3ri [~zolk3ri@unaffiliated/zolk3ri] has joined #lisp 12:21:15 -!- yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.169] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:21:16 Odin- [~sbkhh@erudite.anarchism.is] has joined #lisp 12:22:05 blawiz: iirc, you can use pipe and command line tools with inferior-shell. http://www.cliki.net/inferior-shell 12:23:08 blawiz: for good interaction with piping, I recommend reading up about designing data formats that play nicely with such line-oriented stuff 12:24:02 cfy [~ilisp@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 12:24:18 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:25:47 is lisp good for html parsing? 12:26:03 i usually use only bash :] 12:26:24 but have programmed some in C some 10 years ago 12:28:08 blawiz: closure-html is pretty good at dealing with HTML (though I don't know if it supports latest additions). This, coupled with cxml-stp makes for a much nicer scraping of HTML data than some other tools I've used in the past 12:29:08 Joreji [~thomas@84-182.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 12:29:54 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-64-130.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:29:58 ok ok :) thanks for the guidance 12:30:31 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-20-18.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 12:32:40 gravicappa [~gravicapp@176.192.41.70] has joined #lisp 12:34:13 kennyd [~kennyd@93-141-66-46.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 12:35:55 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@84-72-21-32.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:40:33 -!- axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-88-224.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.0-dev] 12:44:15 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-185-82-146.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 12:48:25 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.66] has quit [Quit: go home] 12:48:51 you could take a look here: http://landoflisp.com/errata.html 12:48:59 woops 12:49:50 antonv [5d7d2a66@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.42.102] has joined #lisp 12:53:27 -!- browndawg [~browndawg@117.214.172.73] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:55:29 -!- Joreji [~thomas@84-182.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 12:55:35 ehu [~ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 12:56:57 - 13:02:36 -!- ASau [~user@46.115.52.76] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 13:04:13 burrows [~user@cpe-75-187-53-43.columbus.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:04:48 Anyone recommend a CL library (bindings) for using WinAPI? 13:06:16 -!- reckler [~reckler@ppp118-208-16-60.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:07:33 sdemarre [~serge@91.180.82.69] has joined #lisp 13:08:08 browndawg [~browndawg@117.214.172.73] has joined #lisp 13:10:37 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ho1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 13:12:48 -!- kmels [~kmels@frbg-5d84fa80.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 13:13:43 kofno [~kofno@cpe-24-165-210-251.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:18:01 -!- luqui [~luqui@97-118-116-41.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: luqui] 13:18:13 pnpuff [~aeiou@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 13:18:38 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-20-18.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 13:18:43 -!- Strigoides [~owen@60-234-213-126.bitstream.orcon.net.nz] has quit [Quit: leaving] 13:20:19 Strigoides [~owen@60-234-213-126.bitstream.orcon.net.nz] has joined #lisp 13:23:12 -!- pnpuff [~aeiou@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has quit [Quit: leaving] 13:23:53 pnpuff [~aeiou@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 13:25:35 -!- leoncamel [~leoncamel@124.126.222.38] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:26:24 svetlyak40wt [~svetlyak4@broadband-95-84-141-55.nationalcablenetworks.ru] has joined #lisp 13:27:47 -!- cfy [~ilisp@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:28:10 leoncamel [~leoncamel@124.126.222.38] has joined #lisp 13:28:52 -!- blawiz [~DD@200.236.16.62.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Quit: Screw you guys, I'm going home] 13:29:25 -!- CrazyEddy [~CrazyEddy@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:31:53 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 13:34:49 -!- xcombelle [~xcombelle@AToulouse-551-1-106-71.w92-149.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:35:02 kmels [~kmels@frbg-5d84fa80.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 13:36:42 LiamH [~none@pool-173-48-164-128.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:44:46 -!- burrows [~user@cpe-75-187-53-43.columbus.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:44:53 Hello everyone! Are there any good libraries for CL to work with XLS files or I need to write one by myself? 13:46:03 ASau [~user@46.115.52.76] has joined #lisp 13:48:44 -!- zolk3ri [~zolk3ri@unaffiliated/zolk3ri] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 13:50:46 -!- kmels [~kmels@frbg-5d84fa80.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 13:51:41 hitecnologys: best way seems to be hooking up Excel through DCOM on windows 13:53:02 p_l: but I haven't got any windows PC. =( 13:53:50 kmels [~kmels@frbg-5d84fa80.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 13:54:15 hitecnologys: in general, dealing with XLS without Excel is... pain 13:54:36 there are some Java libs which you could hook to with ABCL and/or some IPC 13:54:58 but remember that XSL (not XSLX) was a bastard son of a memdump 13:55:05 -!- Ralt_ [~ralt@89-92-204-200.hfc.dyn.abo.bbox.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:55:50 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@176.192.41.70] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:56:34 francisl [~anonymous@69.157.141.16] has joined #lisp 13:56:40 p_l: I know, it's pain. But I have no choice. 13:56:49 hitecnologys: run windows in a VM 13:57:38 p_l: okay, I'll try this way, thanks. 13:59:31 -!- pnpuff [~aeiou@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has quit [Quit: leaving] 13:59:45 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:00:25 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-170-179.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:00:45 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ho1.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:01:59 teggi [~user@123.21.166.89] has joined #lisp 14:02:58 Ralt_ [~ralt@89-92-204-200.hfc.dyn.abo.bbox.fr] has joined #lisp 14:04:55 Thra11 [~thrall@87.112.186.70] has joined #lisp 14:08:44 CrazyEddy [~CrazyEddy@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 14:08:52 -!- Indecipherable [~Indeciphe@41.13.0.51] has quit [Quit: used jmIrc] 14:10:47 victor_lowther [~victor.lo@2602:306:3b84:e2a0:d80f:39f1:9cee:78cf] has joined #lisp 14:10:53 -!- browndawg [~browndawg@117.214.172.73] has left #lisp 14:11:25 browndawg [~browndawg@117.214.172.73] has joined #lisp 14:14:56 nikodem [~mikey@user-46-113-61-181.play-internet.pl] has joined #lisp 14:17:33 pnpuff [~aeiou@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 14:20:22 leo2007 [~leo@182.48.109.8] has joined #lisp 14:22:59 -!- snowylike [~sn@91-67-171-156-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de] 14:25:22 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@2-230-138-74.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:26:55 ZabaQ [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has joined #lisp 14:28:36 breakds [~breakds@ppp-70-226-163-93.dsl.mdsnwi.ameritech.net] has joined #lisp 14:29:48 cfy [~ilisp@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 14:30:28 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 14:30:52 -!- pnpuff [~aeiou@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:31:06 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.180.82.69] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:31:06 Indecipherable [~Indeciphe@41.13.0.51] has joined #lisp 14:31:07 yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.169] has joined #lisp 14:31:41 -!- LiamH [~none@pool-173-48-164-128.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:32:28 -!- macrobat [~fuzzyglee@h-9-226.a328.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.9.2] 14:33:09 -!- [SLB] is now known as [SLB]` 14:33:47 pnpuff [~virtus@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 14:43:28 -!- [SLB]` is now known as [SLB] 14:45:27 sdemarre [~serge@109.134.128.207] has joined #lisp 14:47:56 -!- weie [~eie@softbank221078042071.bbtec.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 14:51:20 jsfb [~jon@unaffiliated/jsfb] has joined #lisp 14:51:32 -!- Ralt_ [~ralt@89-92-204-200.hfc.dyn.abo.bbox.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:51:46 - 14:51:54 hitecnologys: short googling finds this: http://libexcel.sourceforge.net/ 14:52:09 maybe one can do bindings to it. 14:52:23 -!- cfy [~ilisp@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:53:13 cfy [~ilisp@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 14:55:59 zolk3ri [~Zol1ka@unaffiliated/zolk3ri] has joined #lisp 14:56:17 Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 14:58:45 groovy2shoes [~cory@unaffiliated/groovebot] has joined #lisp 14:59:49 -!- kofno [~kofno@cpe-24-165-210-251.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:05:36 xcombelle [~xcombelle@AToulouse-551-1-106-71.w92-149.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 15:08:25 Fare [~fare@173-9-65-97-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 15:08:37 setting *resolve-symlinks* to nil reduces it by some other 25% 15:09:13 -!- xcombelle [~xcombelle@AToulouse-551-1-106-71.w92-149.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:09:30 i use symlinks 15:09:48 for asd files, that is 15:11:41 pnpuff_ [~virtus@79.56.250.117] has joined #lisp 15:12:25 -!- pnpuff_ [~virtus@79.56.250.117] has quit [Client Quit] 15:13:56 xcombelle [~xcombelle@AToulouse-551-1-106-71.w92-149.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 15:14:01 weie [~eie@softbank221078042071.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 15:14:36 -!- pnpuff [~virtus@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:16:47 me too 15:17:48 ok 15:18:01 so traverse of iolib used to take .08 s 15:18:01 pnpuff [~virtus@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 15:18:06 now it takes 3s 15:18:10 Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has joined #lisp 15:18:24 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:18:32 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 15:18:32 hi Xach ! 15:18:39 honkfestival [~honkfesti@198-84-183-94.cpe.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 15:19:04 adelgado [~TomSawyer@c-66-229-185-165.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:19:58 kiuma [~kiuma@2-230-138-74.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 15:20:34 Ralt_ [~ralt@89-92-204-200.hfc.dyn.abo.bbox.fr] has joined #lisp 15:21:16 with my cache, that's down to 2.6s with resolve-symlinks (default), 1.7 without. 15:21:25 still much slower. 15:21:30 -!- pnpuff [~virtus@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 15:21:42 -!- sdemarre [~serge@109.134.128.207] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:21:46 21 times slower. 15:22:00 investigating. 15:22:27 -!- cfy [~ilisp@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:23:11 cfy [~ilisp@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 15:23:34 still spending plenty of time in truename -- probably due to probe-file. 15:25:04 -!- cfy [~ilisp@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Client Quit] 15:25:15 why do you use probe-file ? 15:25:53 to detect if a file exists? 15:26:03 pnpuff [~virtus@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 15:26:10 maybe I should just ignore-errors around file-write-date, for instance. 15:26:19 why not just open it and handle the error ? 15:27:22 if a file exists, you're not guaranteed that you open it, anyway 15:27:34 that you can open it 15:28:32 not using probe-file before file-write-date makes it go down to 1.55s 15:29:20 -!- Ralt_ [~ralt@89-92-204-200.hfc.dyn.abo.bbox.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:30:10 -!- Indecipherable [~Indeciphe@41.13.0.51] has quit [Quit: used jmIrc] 15:30:36 clhs file-write-date 15:30:37 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_file_w.htm 15:31:09 Fare: you should probably ignore only file-error 15:31:10 file-write-date is called many more times, anyway -- some of that is irreducible and the desired thing -- ASDF used to fail to propagate these things 15:31:32 what other errors from a file-write-date? 15:32:07 but let's try it 15:32:13 -!- pnpuff [~virtus@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has left #lisp 15:33:00 I can't think of what other error could be signaled there 15:33:30 pnpuff [~virtus@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 15:33:42 interestingly, setting *warnings-file-type* to nil does NOT speed up the traverse significantly. 15:34:13 neither can I -- we'll see what the portability test says. Trying CLISP first, it's often the first to fail. 15:34:22 clisp passed, good sign 15:34:56 still passing plenty of time in probe-file. I'll chase them. 15:35:00 oh: good MVA ! 15:35:22 I suppose I should commit and push my cache already, it's saving a lot of time 15:36:24 with a multivariate approach? 15:38:55 Indecipherable [~Indeciphe@41.13.0.51] has joined #lisp 15:39:23 -!- cibs [~cibs@219-87-142-18.static.tfn.net.tw] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:41:06 cibs [~cibs@219-87-142-18.static.tfn.net.tw] has joined #lisp 15:43:03 LiamH [~none@pool-173-48-164-128.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:43:18 MVA ? 15:44:25 hitecnologys1 [~hitecnolo@46.233.255.214] has joined #lisp 15:44:34 prxq: sorry, I was afk. Thanks, I'll try this too. 15:44:43 ok, pushed 2.26.153 15:44:58 looking into further reducing the pathname pressure. 15:45:14 -!- sirdancealot1 [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:45:20 -!- sirdancealot7 [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:45:21 I suspect caching nil-pathname might help, too 15:45:23 -!- omouse` is now known as omouse 15:45:23 -!- hitecnologys1 [~hitecnolo@46.233.255.214] has quit [Client Quit] 15:45:29 two- [~1@c-67-171-131-23.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:45:34 alkul [~alk@108.Red-79-158-106.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 15:45:46 Fare: to perform a preliminary exploratory analysis.. 15:46:42 whithout testing one parameter after another after aother etc.. 15:47:11 anyway i do not know yor problem, so excuseme. 15:47:29 -!- hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@46.233.244.56] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:48:37 axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-88-224.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:51:28 I'm using sb-sprof to help me. 15:53:24 -!- Thra11 [~thrall@87.112.186.70] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:55:01 killerboy [~mateusz@217.17.38.43] has joined #lisp 15:56:54 caching *nil-pathname* also helps a *lot* 15:57:01 down to 47s 15:57:45 sirdancealot7 [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 15:57:58 wait, I mean 2.6s -- wait that's more 15:58:20 :) 15:59:03 AeroNotix [~xeno@abos254.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 15:59:16 -!- axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-88-224.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.0-dev] 15:59:19 Fare: use cl:time too 15:59:28 sb-sprof is sometimes too detailed 16:00:02 i'n now looking at sb-sprof.. 16:00:12 *i'm.. 16:00:13 yes, I'm using cl:time 16:01:10 kofno [~kofno@cpe-24-165-210-251.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:03:13 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@70.114.215.220] has quit [] 16:04:23 sirdancealot1 [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 16:05:53 -!- nikodem [~mikey@user-46-113-61-181.play-internet.pl] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:06:38 Ralt_ [~ralt@89-92-204-200.hfc.dyn.abo.bbox.fr] has joined #lisp 16:09:15 -!- groovy2shoes [~cory@unaffiliated/groovebot] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 16:09:58 -!- kofno [~kofno@cpe-24-165-210-251.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:09:59 how could caching *nil-pathname* cause a slow down??? 16:10:04 cache issues? 16:12:18 charli_ [~charli@p4FFD32FE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:12:19 charli [~charli@p4FFD32FE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:12:44 -!- charli_ [~charli@p4FFD32FE.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 16:12:47 nah. When I remove this optimization, time goes even further up. 16:13:01 The symbol "COMPILE-FILE-ERROR" is not external in the ASDF/INTERFACE package. 16:13:44 -!- charli [~charli@p4FFD32FE.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:14:04 charli [~charli@p4FFD32FE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:14:40 -!- charli [~charli@p4FFD32FE.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #lisp 16:16:07 should it be? 16:16:09 exporting. 16:16:18 Oh, apparently, I should cache builtin-system-p, too 16:16:18 that's an error message 16:16:39 the strange thing is that in your recent patch, it's #+asdf3 asdf:compile-file-error 16:16:45 no asdf/interface 16:17:14 exporting. 16:17:57 where is that #+asdf3 ? 16:18:03 in swank-asdf.lisp 16:18:21 -!- b1rkh0ff [~b1rkh0ff@31.176.152.170] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:18:23 oh 16:18:32 compile-file-error is defined in lisp-build.lisp, I can't see what it has to do with asdf/interface 16:18:47 yeah, should be asdf/lisp-build:compile-file-error 16:18:49 except for that :recycle :asdf/interface 16:18:59 should I re-submit? 16:19:01 probably. 16:19:12 b1rkh0ff [~b1rkh0ff@109.163.163.189] has joined #lisp 16:19:31 -!- teiresias [~teiresias@archlinux/trusteduser/teiresias] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:19:52 normanrichards [~normanric@63.98.50.138] has joined #lisp 16:21:59 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ho1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 16:24:51 macrobat [~fuzzyglee@h-9-226.a328.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 16:25:11 sdemarre [~serge@109.134.128.207] has joined #lisp 16:26:56 brandonz [~brandon@adsl-99-184-205-252.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:30:35 ehu` [ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 16:32:23 Thra11 [~thrall@87.112.186.70] has joined #lisp 16:32:35 -!- ehu [~ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 16:33:07 Fare: works well 16:33:32 leoc`` [~leoc.git@p5DDBB860.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:33:39 Fare: I found a regression: (asdf:load-system :nonexistent) signals a "Component NIL not found" 16:33:58 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ho1.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 16:34:07 skbierm [~sascha@p4FEA06C8.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 16:35:16 -!- stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-236-114.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 16:36:35 stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-236-114.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 16:37:06 -!- leoc` [~leoc.git@p5DDBAA82.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:37:32 -!- brandonz [~brandon@adsl-99-184-205-252.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:39:12 brandonz [~brandon@adsl-99-101-141-118.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:41:49 DrCode_ [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has joined #lisp 16:42:02 down to .84 s 16:42:06 much better 16:42:06 -!- DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:42:12 but the problem has many variables so ... why only a regression and not a multiple regression? 16:42:26 -!- DrCode_ is now known as DrCode 16:42:47 vary one variable at time is time-consuming.. or not? 16:43:02 -!- kmels [~kmels@frbg-5d84fa80.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 16:44:10 -!- joast [~rick@76.178.135.192] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:44:33 axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-88-224.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:44:58 -!- Ralt_ [~ralt@89-92-204-200.hfc.dyn.abo.bbox.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:45:00 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:46:02 fe[nl]ix, ok, fixed. 16:46:47 (will tell you when I commit & push) 16:46:50 -!- axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-88-224.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 16:48:22 ykm [~ykm@124.155.255.253] has joined #lisp 16:49:14 guest-qVo0D8 [~guest-qVo@184-155-226-111.cpe.cableone.net] has joined #lisp 16:49:23 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu2.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 16:49:31 -!- guest-qVo0D8 is now known as BigMallet 16:50:13 Is possible to perform an hypothesis test with sb-sprof outputs? 16:50:22 kmels [~kmels@frbg-5d84fa80.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 16:50:24 What's LISP? 16:51:27 Why don't you ask google? 16:52:19 I just did But thanks for answering my question 16:52:44 -!- BigMallet [~guest-qVo@184-155-226-111.cpe.cableone.net] has left #lisp 16:54:44 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@50-196-148-102-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 16:54:48 pushed 16:55:10 kpreid [~kpreid@50-196-148-102-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 16:55:30 ok, so we're still passing too much time with make-pathname 16:56:56 we're still 7x slower than 2.26. Better than 37x 16:58:02 whithout any multi-factor model... great! 16:58:51 the last commit broke sb-bsd-sockets 16:59:51 http://paste.lisp.org/+2W4A 16:59:53 spending 5% of the time in syscall for file-write-date, plus over 3% just for the related conversion to native-namestring 17:00:38 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu2.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:00:48 did it, or is that an artefact of the upgrade? 17:01:02 dous [~dous@cm86.sigma71.maxonline.com.sg] has joined #lisp 17:01:02 -!- dous [~dous@cm86.sigma71.maxonline.com.sg] has quit [Changing host] 17:01:02 dous [~dous@unaffiliated/dous] has joined #lisp 17:02:12 dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 17:02:21 quchen [~david@p54AA198B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:02:40 it did 17:02:48 I nuked all fasls, and retried 17:02:54 -!- brandonz [~brandon@adsl-99-101-141-118.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:03:28 interesting. Yet builtin-system-p returns true 17:03:37 Hello everyone! I have a conceptual beginner question: I think (cdr (cdr '(1 2 3)) should be an error, as it is evaluated to (cdr (2 3)), and (2 3) doesn't make sense. Is that right? 17:05:20 Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 17:05:45 -!- Indecipherable [~Indeciphe@41.13.0.51] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:05:49 Fare: can you reproduce it ? 17:05:58 quchen: try to use a stepper.. 17:06:01 quchen: (2 3) makes perfectly sense: it's a list of two elements. 17:06:08 (: 17:06:10 quchen: Of which you can take the cdr. 17:06:15 (cdr '(2 3)) --> (3). 17:06:47 quchen: notice (cdr '(cdr (cdr '(1 2 34)))) --> (cdr '(1 2 34)) 17:06:49 -!- alkul [~alk@108.Red-79-158-106.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: alkul] 17:06:55 Oops. 17:07:03 quchen: notice (cdr '(cdr (cdr '(1 2 34)))) --> ((cdr '(1 2 34))) 17:07:18 pjb: But doesn't (cdr (cdr '(1 2 3))) evaluate to an expression without a quote? 17:07:26 you are confusing code with data here. 17:07:40 brandonz [~brandon@adsl-99-101-141-118.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:07:49 quchen: '(1 2 3) is a list of TWO elements: the symbol CL:QUOTE and the list (1 2 3). 17:08:06 -!- LiamH [~none@pool-173-48-164-128.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:08:07 quchen: when you evaluate (CL:QUOTE (1 2 3)), you get (1 2 3). 17:08:10 Ah. Maybe I should have desugared it, right. 17:08:33 fe[nl]ix, yes. It's because lisp-implementation-pathname-p returns a pathname, not T 17:08:43 LiamH [~none@pool-173-48-164-128.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:08:48 joast [~rick@76.178.135.192] has joined #lisp 17:08:58 -!- LiamH [~none@pool-173-48-164-128.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 17:09:09 quchen: ok, I think I see your error. 17:09:17 quchen: the functions are called inside out. 17:09:30 -!- sdemarre [~serge@109.134.128.207] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:10:02 So let ==> be "evaluates to in the next step". So let me evaluate "(cdr (cdr (quote (1 2 3))))" and see where I go ;-) 17:10:12 The outer cdr is evaluated. 17:10:19 For that, its argument have to be fully evaluated. 17:10:20 quchen: (cdr (cdr '(1 2 3))) does not evaluate to (cdr (2 3)), but more like: (let ((temp (cdr '(1 2 3)))) (cdr temp)). 17:10:58 So temp is bound to (2 3) and when the outer cdr is called, temp is evaluated to (2 3). 17:11:09 though I don;t understand why returning t makes it work better 17:11:15 -!- svetlyak40wt [~svetlyak4@broadband-95-84-141-55.nationalcablenetworks.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:11:36 pjb: So you're saying (cdr (cdr '(1 2 3)) ==> (3)? 17:11:42 Yes. 17:11:46 That's odd. I thought I had spotted a bug in my interpreter. 17:11:58 That makes me wonder why it works now, haha 17:12:12 does not make sense 17:12:22 (cdr '(1 2 3)) is (2 3), and (cdr '(2 3)) is (3) 17:12:31 Fare: because of "name"-p "convention" :p ... otherwie 17:12:41 quchen: Compare (cdr (eval (cdr '(1 list 2 3)))) (cdr (cdr '(1 list 2 3))) 17:12:47 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 17:12:51 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:13:11 -!- gko [~user@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:13:16 -!- breakds [~breakds@ppp-70-226-163-93.dsl.mdsnwi.ameritech.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 17:13:27 so, after I make that cleanup that *should* not change anuthing it works 17:13:32 lemme undo it 17:13:43 pjb: I don't have an 'eval' primitive yet. What should be the results? 17:14:15 I'll put that in a todo to have a test case when I implement it :-) 17:14:20 axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-88-224.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:14:55 quchen: you can try it in any CL implementation, for comparison. 17:14:57 indeed, can't reproduce it either from a clean asdf 2.26.154 w/o that cleanup 17:16:06 snowylike [~sn@91-67-171-156-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 17:16:29 so, I could reproduce once, from a transient state, but not after restarting lisp 17:16:38 pjb: Alright then, thanks for your help! 17:16:50 fe[nl]ix, can you reproduce? 17:17:00 -!- pnpuff [~virtus@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:17:07 dous_ [~dous@cm86.sigma71.maxonline.com.sg] has joined #lisp 17:17:07 -!- dous_ [~dous@cm86.sigma71.maxonline.com.sg] has quit [Changing host] 17:17:07 dous_ [~dous@unaffiliated/dous] has joined #lisp 17:17:44 posterdati300 [~kvirc@77.241.94.53.static.hosted.by.combell.com] has joined #lisp 17:17:51 hi 17:18:06 quchen: distinguish "reduce to" and "evaluate to" 17:18:43 I've got the fastest repl among you! :) 17:19:01 Fare: reproduce what ? 17:19:20 the sb-bsd-sockets lossage from a clean lisp image 17:20:26 -!- dous [~dous@unaffiliated/dous] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 17:20:27 Fare: What's the difference between the two? 17:20:30 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@92.46.29.198] has joined #lisp 17:20:30 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@92.46.29.198] has quit [Changing host] 17:20:30 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 17:20:48 it loads fine using the ASDF in quicklisp 17:21:55 -!- ZabaQ [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:22:28 -!- brandonz [~brandon@adsl-99-101-141-118.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 17:23:34 -!- skbierm [~sascha@p4FEA06C8.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:25:34 svetlyak40wt [~svetlyak4@broadband-95-84-141-55.nationalcablenetworks.ru] has joined #lisp 17:25:38 Fare: Hm I think I know what you meant, although I couldn't describe it now. My mistake was thinking that every time a function does something, it evaluates its arguments. What it's actually like is that an evaluated function is not evaluated again (because it's evaluated). 17:25:54 quchen: it's not functions that evaluate their arguments. 17:26:07 quchen: it's the application operation that evaluates the arguments BEFORE calling the function. 17:26:17 -!- svetlyak40wt [~svetlyak4@broadband-95-84-141-55.nationalcablenetworks.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:26:33 quchen: the difficulty here is that in lisp, the application is implicit: it's only denoted by the parentheses around a function call. 17:26:52 So it's this way: http://codepad.org/M1kJ0KPg 17:26:55 quchen: (+ (+ 1 1) 3) is a function application. 17:27:16 For the lack of better syntax I called what the interpreter wants to evaluate with a prefix "EVAL:". 17:27:19 It's the first parenthesis that evaluates (+ 1 1), obtain the result 2, and pass 2 and 3 to the function + when it calls it. 17:31:34 pjb: So as a conclusion: application evaluates all unevaluated subexpressions. (?) 17:31:42 -!- axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-88-224.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:31:42 ... and then applies 17:32:01 quchen: the rule for function application in CL is to evaluate ALL the arguments. 17:32:08 and then calling the function. 17:33:19 So, posterdati300 tought he had a fast repl being on a train. Pfft! Deep Space 1 has the RAX CL REPL going at 15500 km/h. 17:33:40 big phase shift then 17:33:46 -!- Keshi [~Keshi@unaffiliated/keshi] has quit [Quit: Zzz...] 17:33:48 Okay, thanks again pjb! 17:34:24 quchen, you might want to read the classic LAMBDA papers 17:34:36 and also read a course in lambda-calculus 17:34:41 maybe read some Olivier Danvy. 17:35:03 quchen: (defun %eval (form environment) (cond  ((function-application-p form) (apply (operator form) (mapcar (lambda (arg) (%eval arg environment)) (arguments form)))) )) 17:35:04 gravicappa [~gravicapp@176.192.41.70] has joined #lisp 17:36:24 -!- firefux [firefux@2600:3c02::f03c:91ff:fe96:d915] has left #lisp 17:37:14 Fare: I'm somewhat familiar with Lambda calculus. I've come to Lisp over my Haskell background, but a lot of things are different here. Requires some unlearning of practices to get around Lisp. 17:37:42 Yes, lisp use the applicative rule, it's not a mere reduction. 17:38:16 quchen, sure. We're here to help. 17:38:27 pjb: can still be seen as reduction. 17:39:11 pjb: Is it safe to think about Lisp as just a series of code transformations? That's kind of the main idea behind my interpreter. 17:39:49 zacts [~user@unaffiliated/zacts] has joined #lisp 17:39:53 -!- ykm [~ykm@124.155.255.253] has left #lisp 17:39:56 Well, there are a few special operators with side effects that must do something at the core. 17:40:00 I sometimes feel like writing a preprocessor. Like C++ template metaprogramming, only that it is not awful ;-) 17:40:12 ^ when doing the Lisp thing, that is 17:40:15 Definitely. 17:40:44 I wish someone had told me earlier that things like these aren't necessarily awful. 17:41:08 quchen: Check http://home.pipeline.com/~hbaker1/MetaCircular.html 17:41:22 Well, we've been telling the world since 1964! 17:41:55 pjb: I wonder how many great languages that people ignore are out there. 17:42:41 -!- yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.169] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:43:20 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:43:46 Do you know what a minimal Scheme (or CL?) implementation would look like, as in what does the interpreter have to have built in so the rest can be implemented on an "import" level? 17:43:56 -!- snowylike [~sn@91-67-171-156-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de] 17:44:10 For example, if seems to be definable in terms of macros, so given macros, the interpreter doesn't have to know about if. 17:44:15 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@176.192.41.70] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:44:27 Read AIM-8. 17:44:42 http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/small-cl-pgms/aim-8/index.html 17:46:03 pjb: Nice, thanks :-) 17:47:17 Bike [~Glossina@63-229-134-7.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 17:47:55 -!- Demosthenex [~Demosthen@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:48:51 -!- dim [~dim@orion.naquadah.org] has quit [Excess Flood] 17:48:59 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@63.98.50.138] has quit [] 17:49:07 dim [~dim@orion.naquadah.org] has joined #lisp 17:49:47 Demosthenex [~Demosthen@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 17:49:54 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu2.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 17:51:08 kofno [~kofno@cpe-24-165-213-11.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:51:45 svetlyak40wt [~svetlyak4@broadband-95-84-141-55.nationalcablenetworks.ru] has joined #lisp 17:52:27 pnpuff [~virtus@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 17:53:48 groovy2shoes [~cory@unaffiliated/groovebot] has joined #lisp 17:53:49 -!- svetlyak40wt [~svetlyak4@broadband-95-84-141-55.nationalcablenetworks.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:54:17 brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-142-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:54:59 eslg [~esalagaev@92.243.190.94] has joined #lisp 17:57:13 -!- pnpuff [~virtus@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:00:07 -!- drichards [~user@c-98-232-26-203.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:00:21 Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-72-66-99-183.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:01:22 quchen: it's always safe to think of things as a series of transformations. 18:02:57 I fear I've reached the diminishing returns of where sb-sprof shows me the time is being spent. 18:03:42 mrdtt_ [~mrdtt@171.245.158.254] has joined #lisp 18:03:56 -!- mrdtt [~mrdtt@171.245.148.137] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:03:58 -!- mrdtt_ is now known as mrdtt 18:04:16 so... it's still significantly slower than before :-( 18:07:42 Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 18:08:17 -!- teggi [~user@123.21.166.89] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 18:08:59 Indecipherable [~Indeciphe@41.13.0.51] has joined #lisp 18:11:06 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu2.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:11:46 clhs compile-file 18:11:47 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_cmp_fi.htm 18:11:50 bananagram [~bot@c-98-198-236-112.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:12:02 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu2.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 18:12:10 clhs load 18:12:11 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_load.htm 18:12:26 I have compile-file* and load* for you. 18:12:38 if you want proper cross-platform behavior. 18:13:06 -!- adelgado [~TomSawyer@c-66-229-185-165.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:13:12 adelgado1 [~TomSawyer@c-66-229-185-165.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:13:35 -!- fsvehla [~fsvehla@h081217181184.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Quit: fsvehla] 18:18:14 -!- francisl [~anonymous@69.157.141.16] has quit [Quit: francisl] 18:19:08 -!- Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-72-66-99-183.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:20:45 Codynyx [~cody@173-23-103-44.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 18:22:11 Fare: http://paste.lisp.org/+2W4B 18:23:20 -!- am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 18:23:58 add^_ [~add^_@m83-190-167-197.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 18:24:39 arenz [~arenz@HSI-KBW-046-005-062-174.hsi8.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 18:25:43 this shouldn't matter much, does it? 18:25:56 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:25:59 it's an optimization note during upgrade 18:25:59 pnpuff [~dyoxyrane@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 18:26:20 it's not doing an upgrade 18:26:33 teiresias [~teiresias@archlinux/trusteduser/teiresias] has joined #lisp 18:26:35 uh? 18:26:48 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 18:26:49 -!- mrdtt [~mrdtt@171.245.158.254] has quit [Quit: mrdtt] 18:26:50 ok, using let instead of setf 18:26:59 I'm loading ASDF before quicklisp this time 18:27:06 -!- brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-142-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 18:27:34 and also http://paste.lisp.org/+2W4C 18:32:24 Jambato [~Jambato@2a01:e35:2f15:c40:211:d8ff:fe7d:2c4a] has joined #lisp 18:32:44 Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-72-66-99-183.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:35:36 LiamH [~none@pool-173-48-164-128.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:35:40 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@2-230-138-74.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:36:02 -!- zacts [~user@unaffiliated/zacts] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 18:38:33 ehu [ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 18:38:46 guille [~user@232.157.16.95.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 18:40:02 any good resource on the MOP besides amop? preferably on the web for free. I'm a noob besides the basic concepts. 18:40:03 -!- ehu` [ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:41:16 guille: do the parts of amop alu has up for free count? 18:41:19 -!- LiamH [~none@pool-173-48-164-128.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:41:43 http://www.alu.org/mop/ 18:43:47 i'll read it carefully and (hopefully not) ask wisely afterwards :) 18:45:07 -!- leo2007 [~leo@182.48.109.8] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.2.92.1] 18:45:57 mcspiff [~user@bas16-ottawa23-845424077.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 18:48:03 fsvehla [~fsvehla@h081217181184.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 18:48:17 svetlyak40wt [~svetlyak4@broadband-95-84-141-55.nationalcablenetworks.ru] has joined #lisp 18:49:54 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f755ab6.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 18:53:45 -!- _ponce [~ponce@ks393605.kimsufi.com] has left #lisp 18:54:38 -!- browndawg [~browndawg@117.214.172.73] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:55:24 -!- posterdati300 [~kvirc@77.241.94.53.static.hosted.by.combell.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:58:56 My_Hearing [~Mon_Ouie@91.176.6.123] has joined #lisp 18:58:56 -!- My_Hearing [~Mon_Ouie@91.176.6.123] has quit [Changing host] 18:58:56 My_Hearing [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 18:59:34 -!- Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has quit [Disconnected by services] 18:59:37 -!- My_Hearing is now known as Mon_Ouie 19:00:30 My_Hearing [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 19:02:34 -!- xcombelle is now known as xcombelle_away 19:03:53 larryg [~larryg@109.227.36.174] has joined #lisp 19:04:45 -!- arenz [~arenz@HSI-KBW-046-005-062-174.hsi8.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:06:22 -!- kmels [~kmels@frbg-5d84fa80.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 19:08:31 kmels [~kmels@frbg-5d84fa80.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 19:10:01 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu2.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:10:56 -!- BlastHardcheese [chris@pdpc/supporter/active/blasthardcheese] has quit [Quit: Talk is cheap because the supply exceeds the demand.] 19:12:22 -!- Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has left #lisp 19:13:26 youlysses [~user@75-132-17-145.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 19:13:54 OK, much faster now. 19:15:22 0.4 s -- only 5x slower than 2.26, with resolve-symlinks t 19:15:41 and .125s -- only 50% slower than 2.26, with resolve-symlinks nil 19:15:46 that's more like it. 19:16:15 assigning to keyword arg did that? 19:16:21 uh? 19:16:47 no, avoiding traverse-sub-operations in favor of sub-components did that. 19:16:49 saw your post above says: using let instead of setf, so I assumed that what speeded it up 19:16:56 ah ok 19:17:28 for checking warnings, I'm not doing it in order. 19:17:33 Are there any good books that are aimed at teaching some dialect of lisp, common or other-wise, to middle-school aged children? "Land of Lisp" currently seems like the best option. 19:17:49 -!- Jabberwockey [~quassel@83.151.30.10] has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.] 19:18:07 Jabberwockey [~quassel@83.151.30.10] has joined #lisp 19:18:34 Parts of PCL would be alright I think 19:18:50 youlysses: i dunno if exist something like little schemer for CL. :( 19:19:10 LiamH [~none@pool-173-48-164-128.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:19:27 youlysses, little schemer? 19:20:04 better little clisper anyway! 19:20:31 youlysses, see bootstrapcamp http://citizenschools.bizland.com/index_files/scheme/ 19:20:37 looks like their main site is down 19:20:46 anyway, Emmanuel Schanzer did a lot of that stuff 19:20:50 using Dr Racket 19:20:55 francisl [~anonymous@69.157.141.16] has joined #lisp 19:21:06 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 19:21:18 leoc [~leoc.git@p5DDBB860.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:21:31 -!- svetlyak40wt [~svetlyak4@broadband-95-84-141-55.nationalcablenetworks.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:21:52 -!- leoc [~leoc.git@p5DDBB860.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:22:09 -!- leoc`` [~leoc.git@p5DDBB860.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 19:22:34 Pattern recognition is good, but there's still some stuff things like the "Little Schemer" is 'lacking', in terms of being interesting for that age-range (from what I've seen). What I'm looking for is not so-much an introduction to Lisp, but an introduction to the basics of programming in-general, in a Lisp. :-P 19:22:48 leoc [~leoc.git@p5DDBB860.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:23:10 youlysses, the Racket guys did a *lot* of work tailoring their curriculum to high-school kids. 19:23:20 even as young as 11 19:23:55 based on actual experience, accumulated over years, with systematic enhancements based on actual feedback 19:24:20 The web site looks fine to me: http://www.bootstrapworld.org/ 19:25:18 And yes, the project is aimed at the middle-school range, and there was some serious investment in making it work well there. 19:26:00 oh, I was looking at the wrong page... http://teachgroup.ccs.neu.edu/ is dead, linked from http://citizenschools.bizland.com/index_files/scheme/ 19:26:03 Oh, very cool! 19:26:59 *Fare* has been found out... https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/comp.lang.lisp/tfagqRcjZpE/ts4PeRq0InwJ 19:27:28 The citizenschools thing is what he did early on, and I think that he moved on now, and doing things more directly. 19:27:39 youlysses: Is this for a specific kid, or a bunch of them? 19:28:56 eli: Probably 10-15. I've been asked and/or considered to teach at introductory summer-course. :-P 19:29:26 youlysses: In that case you should absolutely contact Emmanuel. 19:29:50 Where are you, roughly? 19:30:21 eli: Midwest US. 19:30:36 Ah, I don't know about people around there that are related. 19:30:51 -!- Thra11 [~thrall@87.112.186.70] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:31:00 He's running lots of workshops for teachers, but if you're actually a programmer they might be too low-level for you. 19:31:13 The important things to learn about is how to do the kid stuff. 19:31:26 -!- Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:31:40 In any case, the web site has a bunch of teaching materials divided into classes so it should be easy to use it. 19:32:17 (And if you're a programmer, you should avoid thinking that you can do more -- kids can be surprising in resisting the rate that you'll want to go at.) 19:32:36 Also, it would be useful to contact him and ask whether he has more materials and/or advice for you. 19:33:34 eli: Gotcha. This isn't even a sure thing yet, but I like being prepared. :-) Also yeah, that might be a trap one definitely doesn't want to fall into. 19:33:39 I see that his email is not on the page, I'll find it for you in a second. 19:34:08 I'm still worried about why resolving symlinks makes it all 3.5x slower, especially when it used to not be quite so bad in 2.26 19:34:13 will profile some more. 19:35:26 -!- kmels [~kmels@frbg-5d84fa80.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:35:34 -!- Indecipherable [~Indeciphe@41.13.0.51] has quit [Quit: used jmIrc] 19:35:53 Hey folks, I'm a little unclear on how "compile-time-too" works and what is supposed to go on in EVAL-WHEN special forms for defining macros. Is this correct: defining macros incorporate EVAL-WHEN special forms that carry out implementation dependent operations that write to a compile-time dynamic environment that is preserved across invocations of COMPILE-FILE. 19:37:33 Or - does anyone understand how COMPILE-FILE deals with defining macros? 19:37:48 And has a few minutes to chat? 19:38:18 "defining macros"? 19:38:33 kmels [~kmels@frbg-5d84fa80.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 19:38:39 Bike: As described in CLHS 3.2.3.1.1 19:39:01 Bike: I think these are macros that define stuff - like DEFVAR or DEFMACRO. 19:39:16 -!- jsfb [~jon@unaffiliated/jsfb] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 19:39:22 some of them have compile-time side effects and some don't (or don't have to) 19:39:32 -!- xcombelle_away is now known as xcombelle 19:39:33 breakds [~breakds@ppp-70-226-163-93.dsl.mdsnwi.ameritech.net] has joined #lisp 19:39:42 e.g. defun doesn't /have/ to do anything at compile time 19:39:46 Bike: Yes, I'm trying to figure out how to deal with the compile-time side-effects. 19:39:58 Bike: I'm writing a compiler - but you know that. 19:40:13 usually the macros expand to an eval-when form that evaluates something appropriately at compile time 19:40:28 Bike: I know DEFUN doesn't have to do anything - but all of the macros listed in CLHS 3.2.3.1.1 do have to do something. 19:41:31 so for example, (defmacro foo () nil) might expand to (eval-when (:compile-toplevel :load-toplevel :execute) (setf (macro-function 'foo) (lambda (form env) ...etc...))) 19:42:05 For instance, DEFVAR has record in a special dynamic environment that a special variable is being declared but not store its value. This is so that the compiler knows the variable is special when it appears further down in the file being COMPILE-FILEd. 19:43:00 Thra11 [~thrall@87.114.155.145] has joined #lisp 19:43:00 look at what (macroexpand-1 '(defvar *foo*)) looks like in your favorite implementation. 19:43:01 -!- answer_42 [~answer_42@gateway/tor-sasl/answer42/x-66983568] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:43:02 Bike: Yes, but the eval-when you just wrote would clobber the global function definition of 'foo. 19:43:08 Yes? 19:43:20 That's what defmacro does. 19:45:35 Bike: I don't think so. I think a DEFMACRO form encountered in a file being compiled should be stored not in the global environment but in a dynamic environment (CLHS 3.1.1.2) but this is where I'm fuzzy on the details. 19:46:15 answer_42 [~answer_42@gateway/tor-sasl/answer42/x-66983568] has joined #lisp 19:46:24 -!- CampinSam [~user@24-176-103-21.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:46:34 What does 3.1.1.2 have to do with compile-file? 19:46:48 3.1.1.1 clearly says that global macro definitions are stores in the global environment. 19:47:33 I think you might be thinking of compile-file as being a sort of module system, and it really isn't. 19:47:37 Indecipherable [~Indeciphe@41.13.24.28] has joined #lisp 19:48:05 Bike: That's what I'm trying to figure out. I was talking to the compiler guys at Franz Inc and they were explaining to me how dynamic environments (3.1.1.2) are used with COMPILE-FILE. I didn't understand it all at the time. Now I need to understand it and I'm searching for enlightenment. 19:48:41 I talked to the Franz Inc guys last November. 19:48:44 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-170-179.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 19:48:53 well, nothing's changed since then. 19:49:07 CampinSam [~user@24-176-103-21.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has joined #lisp 19:49:11 -!- guille [~user@232.157.16.95.dynamic.jazztel.es] has left #lisp 19:49:17 -!- Thra11 [~thrall@87.114.155.145] has quit [Ping timeout: 257 seconds] 19:49:18 3.1.1.2 says clearly what's in the dynamic environment. Even lexical macros aren't going to go there. 19:49:53 Bike: Certainly. My understanding is that a Dynamic Environment is set up and maintained by COMPILE-FILE that stores defining macro definitions to protect the global environment from being altered by the operation of COMPILE-FILE. 19:49:59 Nope. 19:50:10 -!- CampinSam [~user@24-176-103-21.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:50:18 global environment is one and only 19:50:55 CampinSam [~user@24-176-103-21.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has joined #lisp 19:50:57 and... 19:51:21 under slime, is there any way that I can single-step evaluation? 19:51:27 If you compile-file a file with defmacros in it those macro definitions will be evaluated and be available outside of that file. 19:51:32 i can't see how "[defmacro] Defines name as a macro by associating a macro function with that name in the global environment." can't be interpreted by meaning enything else 19:51:34 stassats: So if I COMPILE-FILE a file containing (DEFMACRO DEFUN XXXXX) the global definition of DEFUN changes? 19:51:51 Yes, except that redefining cl:defun is undefined behavior for other reasons. 19:51:54 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 19:52:08 -!- CampinSam [~user@24-176-103-21.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has left #lisp 19:53:11 cd 19:53:19 CampinSam [~user@24-176-103-21.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has joined #lisp 19:53:24 From CLHS 3.2.3.1.1: The compile-time side effects may cause information about the definition to be stored differently than if the defining macro had been processed in the `normal' way (either interpretively or by loading the compiled file). 19:53:32 i don't know where you could've gotten the idea that macros and functions don't persist after compile-file 19:54:01 drmeister: this is irrelevant 19:54:13 it's only about information, not about definitions 19:54:31 drmeister: that's just allowing implementations to use mechanisms other than eval-when to accomplish the same thing. 19:54:49 eval-when too 19:54:57 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has left #lisp 19:55:08 setmeaway [~setmeaway@118.45.149.239] has joined #lisp 19:55:24 Could anyone tell me why SBCL gives me this error stream decoding error: https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/530786 ? Apparently octet sequence 194 is Â, but my file definitely doesn't contain that. I've narrowed it down to a specific function, which Slime still loads fine with eval-last-sexp. 19:55:25 -!- kofno [~kofno@cpe-24-165-213-11.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:55:54 Oops, s/error//1 19:57:44 Really? So CL environments are set up that they will get clobbered by definitions in COMPILE-FILEd files? 19:57:51 Perhaps I should also say, I'm getting that error from LOAD. 19:58:08 drmeister: not necessarily. 19:58:17 fds: don't use ASCII external-formats 19:58:22 the compilation environment could be distinct from the run-time environment. 19:58:27 it's up to the implementation. 19:58:44 -!- honkfestival [~honkfesti@198-84-183-94.cpe.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 19:59:26 pjb: This is what I'm trying to understand. So it's left up to the implementation to set up a compilation environment that is distinct from the run-time/global environment - correct? 19:59:46 yes 20:00:29 pbj: That's what I understood from the Allegro compiler guys. 20:00:39 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-170-179.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 20:00:48 pbj: And the global environment and run-time environment are one and the same correct? 20:02:19 Thra11 [~thrall@14.19.125.91.dyn.plus.net] has joined #lisp 20:02:24 I don't know what more I can say. 20:02:25 pbj: From reading the ECL source code I sort of see how they do it. They create an old-timey CONS dynamic environment and put all the side-effects of the defining macros during COMPILE-FILE into that. 20:02:43 drmeister: 20:02:47 You could read the CLHS, not a specific implementation. 20:03:05 -!- kmels [~kmels@frbg-5d84fa80.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:03:19 ..use autocompletion please! 20:03:42 pjb: I'm reading the CLHS over and over and over. I'm also reading Common Lisp the Language 2nd edition. I'm also reading ECL source code. Then I come here and ask questions. 20:03:58 And I answered. 20:04:08 Environments are the least well described aspect of the CL standard. 20:04:08 The answer is yes or no, as the implementation wishes. 20:04:35 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu1.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20:04:36 stassats`: Sorry, what does that mean? Is the problem with the file? My environment variables? SBCL? 20:04:50 fds: LANG or LC_CTYPE 20:04:52 pjb: And I really, really appreciate it. Ok, one more question and then I'll stop bugging people for a while. 20:05:03 As an implementer, you can do however you want. 20:05:20 The COMPILE-FILE dynamic environment persists from one invocation of COMPILE-FILE to the next correct? 20:05:32 Not necessarily. 20:05:43 When this is wanted, there's with-compilation-unit. 20:06:42 -!- Thra11 [~thrall@14.19.125.91.dyn.plus.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:06:53 pjb: Ok - so you wrap WITH-COMPILATION-UNIT around multiple COMPILE-FILE invocations if you want defining macro side-effects to persist across multiple COMPILE-FILE invocations? 20:07:03 Yes. 20:07:14 Now we are cooking with gas. Thanks. 20:07:18 wait, wait, is it conforming for a defmacro'd macro in one file to not persist outside of that file? 20:07:37 like stassats said it seems pretty unambiguous to me that the global definition is changed 20:07:39 Bike: it's not, it's specified to be persist into the run-time environment 20:07:51 Bike: the side effects of the macro, yes. 20:08:11 so why the with-compilation-unit stuff, you don't need that. 20:08:18 "The next figure lists macros that make definitions available both in the compilation and 20:08:18 run-time environments.", lists defmacro and friends 20:09:03 Now I'm confused again (sigh). 20:09:10 :) 20:09:15 if there's a defmacro in a file and you compile-file in it that macro isn't going to go away 20:09:32 Bike: I'm going to try that now. 20:09:33 *and you compile-file that file 20:09:42 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@91-157-48-10.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:09:54 the dynamic environment is irrelevant, it doesn't have macro definitions in it 20:10:17 drmeister, did you read my EVAL-WHEN rant? 20:10:37 http://fare.livejournal.com/146698.html 20:10:59 drmeister, no, W-C-U is for deferred warnings only 20:10:59 stassats`: Thanks! 20:11:10 -!- pnpuff [~dyoxyrane@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has quit [Quit: "non confundar in aeternum :)"] 20:11:21 luqui [~luqui@97-118-116-41.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 20:11:32 Fare: Yes, I read that a few months ago. 20:12:16 eval-when is pretty confusing, but i don't think these compilation-time side effects are very confusing. they happen and there's no provision for them unhappening in some kind of unit. 20:12:29 Fare: EVAL-WHEN appears to be an essential element of CL - harmful to mental health or not. 20:12:33 Bike: we are talking of macro-expansion-time side effects. Things that macros should not have, but still could have. 20:12:35 sure 20:12:49 -!- youlysses [~user@75-132-17-145.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:12:50 it's pretty simple, too, once you've got the hang of it -- re-read my rant. 20:13:00 (defmacro m (x) (push x *some-compilation-environment-variable*) `(progn ,x)) 20:13:12 pjb: we're talking of compile-file time side effects... 20:13:36 Bike, macros are typically expanded at compile-time 20:13:43 Is there any macro that combines multiple-value-bind and nth-value? I only want to bind the first and 4th return values from a function 20:13:49 even if compile-time is somehow deferred to execution-time 20:14:04 mcspiff: optima:match 20:14:14 youlysses [~user@75-132-17-145.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 20:14:19 I think it can handle multiple values. 20:14:33 during compile-file a defmacro form will be expanded, which doesn't have to have any side effects, and then the expansion will be executed enough to set the global macro definition. 20:14:36 correct? 20:14:46 Ok, I put (DEFMACRO XXX () `(print "Hello")) into a file - COMPILE-FILEd it and when I evaluate (XXX) after COMPILE-FILE I get "Hello". 20:14:59 Fare: thanks, I'll take a look. 20:15:40 Bike: same thing. 20:15:43 drmeister: think about, like, how is the system supposed to know if something defmacro'd is only used internally or exported? 20:15:47 pjb: same thing as what. 20:15:59 clhs 3.2.1 20:16:00 Compiler Terminology: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_ba.htm 20:16:00 -!- youlysses [~user@75-132-17-145.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:16:03 drmeister: this is not conforming. 20:16:04 Bike: I'm flabbergasted - here I was racking my brains for weeks trying to understand how to COMPILE-FILE without changing the global environment. 20:16:13 if it can't, file a bug, the author will fix it. 20:16:21 sorry you spent so much time on a non-issue, then 20:16:21 drmeister: you should load the file or the compiled file to ensure (xxx) is defined in the run-time environment. 20:16:22 The compilation environment inherits from the evaluation environment, and the compilation environment and evaluation environment might be identical. The evaluation environment inherits from the startup environment, and the startup environment and evaluation environment might be identical. 20:16:31 he's pretty quick about fixing bugs or adding features 20:16:41 startup environment is this "global environment" 20:16:43 otherwise, there's declare ignore. 20:17:03 pjb: SBCL is not conforming? 20:17:05 drmeister, why not change the global environment? everyone does it 20:17:07 pjb: what? but defmacro is specified to have compile time side effects. 20:17:13 drmeister: a simple way to do it, is to fork a new process before compiling. 20:17:28 Fare: I'm trying to do what I thought was the "right thing" - not change the global environment. 20:17:29 Bike: yes, defmacro, but not M. 20:17:37 See my example above. 20:17:41 there is no right thing -- this is CL, not Scheme. 20:18:02 you don't *have to* avoid changing the global environment 20:18:08 you can, though, if you want 20:18:17 you can't avoid, defmacro is specified to change it 20:18:29 youlysses [~user@75-132-17-145.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 20:18:48 but compile-file is authorized to fork or whatever and forget those changes 20:19:02 pjb: Fork a new process - that's an idea. 20:19:13 "If a defmacro form appears as a top level form, the compiler must store the macro definition at compile time" 20:19:20 drmeister, don't worry -- poiu does that for you 20:19:32 pjb: I'm still getting conflicting advice though - should one or should one not modify the global environment during COMPILE-FILE side-effects? 20:19:37 reminds me that POIU has bugs and doesn't work well with the new ASDF 20:19:42 Bike: what this means, is that in the same compilation unit, you can write: (defmacro m ) and (m ). 20:19:53 Fare: that is a sweet package, thanks! 20:19:58 pjb: where's anything about "in the same compilation unit"? 20:20:02 Bike: it does not mean that you can write (defmacro m ) in the file, (compile-file "f.lisp") and (m) in the repl. 20:20:03 Fare: had exactly what I wanted 20:20:19 Bike: in the rest of CLHS. 20:20:27 pjb: it does mean 20:20:41 drmeister: it's not specified: you do as you want! 20:20:42 defmacro modifies the global environment 20:20:56 well, so much for not seeming confusing 20:21:02 drmeister: most implementations modify the run-time environment while compiling. 20:21:04 Thra11 [~thrall@87.113.226.25] has joined #lisp 20:21:16 drmeister: but it is not conforming depending on it. 20:22:00 pjb: Well, if I can modify the global environment then I don't have a problem. That's the easy way out. 20:22:03 "If a defmacro form appears as a top level form, the compiler must store the macro definition at compile time, so that occurrences of the macro later on in the file can be expanded correctly. " 20:22:08 It doesn't say later at run-time. 20:22:19 so when I enable resolve-symlinks (the default), it spends 54% of its time in probe-file -- but why so much more probe-file'ing than before? 20:22:27 drmeister: I guess that's why most implementations do it. 20:22:31 clhs 3.2.3.1.1 20:22:32 Processing of Defining Macros: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_bcaa.htm 20:22:33 i'm reading the third clause as just a rationale, pjb 20:22:36 pjbwrong 20:22:41 pjb: wrong 20:22:48 mcspiff, how do you match values with it? my trivial attempt failed. 20:22:54 "The next figure lists macros that make definitions available both in the compilation and run-time environments." 20:23:01 "In particular, the information stored by the defining macros at compile time might or might not be available to the interpreter (either during or after compilation), or during subsequent calls to the compiler." 20:23:03 "... defmacro ..." 20:23:05 hmmmmm. 20:23:38 don't expect 100% consistency in the CLHS 20:23:42 there are bugs everywhere 20:23:47 and always assume the worst 20:23:51 Bike: it might store some god knows what kind of information, but (setf (macro-function 'foo) (lambda (...) ...)) will remain there 20:23:54 Thra11_ [~thrall@31.185.205.134] has joined #lisp 20:24:11 stassats`, no it's not there 20:24:15 -!- eslg [~esalagaev@92.243.190.94] has left #lisp 20:24:21 it might disappear after the end of compile-file 20:24:28 it might not 20:24:32 Fare: (optima:multiple-value-match (func x y) ((first _ _ fourth) (list first fourth))) 20:24:38 i just quoted two places where it says that it won't! 20:24:40 well in any case, drmeister doesn't have to worry about not altering the global environment. 20:24:53 stassats`, and Bike quoted one where it says it might 20:25:08 Fare: it tells about some kind of information, not about definitions 20:25:14 what an exciting journey into how weird compile-file is 20:25:26 -!- xcombelle [~xcombelle@AToulouse-551-1-106-71.w92-149.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:25:56 kofno [~kofno@cpe-24-165-213-11.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:26:20 Bike: well, it's just a weird way to say that compilation can be done by an external process, or not. 20:26:57 -!- hydan [~udzinari@ip-89-102-13-27.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Quit: ...] 20:27:02 -!- Thra11 [~thrall@87.113.226.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:27:28 Thra11 [~thrall@5.102.113.87.dyn.plus.net] has joined #lisp 20:27:34 I like the idea of forking another process within WITH-COMPILATION-UNIT. That would take care of everything. 20:27:43 Fare: oh, hey, if you mean just (compile-file "foo"), sure 20:27:54 i just was thinking about (load (compile-file "foo")) all that time 20:28:23 -!- Thra11_ [~thrall@31.185.205.134] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:28:24 -!- sirdancealot1 [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:28:31 well, forget i said anything, i was thinking completely wrongly :/ 20:28:48 i never do one without another, so, there's that 20:29:50 No problem. I just want to understand in the end. 20:30:12 hydan [~udzinari@ip-89-102-13-27.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 20:30:19 yeah, I meant just (compile-file "foo") 20:30:43 when you're cross-compiling, for instance, there's no loading 20:30:59 sirdancealot1 [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 20:31:18 although, hopefully if you're cross-compiling, there's a .cfasl or whatever to load the side-effects of eval-when :compile-toplevel. 20:31:20 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ho1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 20:32:25 There's absolutely nothing in the CLHS about multi-processing or forking processes - correct? I looked but didn't find anything obvious. 20:32:43 no, nothing 20:32:44 nope 20:32:49 why would there be? 20:32:51 I ask because then I'm free to roll my own. 20:33:09 well, it would be nice if you fit something with bordeaux-threads, probably 20:33:30 though maybe not if you're doing that supercomputer billions of molecules at once stuff, and not threads. 20:33:40 Bike: and then be stuck with it for 50 years? see where pathnames got us 20:34:12 -!- kofno [~kofno@cpe-24-165-213-11.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 20:35:36 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ho1.unidsl.de] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 20:35:58 -!- dous_ [~dous@unaffiliated/dous] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:35:59 Bike: My implementation is not ready to deal with other peoples packages yet. I'm still trying to get CLOS working. 20:36:26 dous [~dous@unaffiliated/dous] has joined #lisp 20:37:47 kmels [~kmels@frbg-5d84fa80.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 20:38:05 -!- Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:38:40 -!- Codynyx [~cody@173-23-103-44.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:41:35 -!- dous [~dous@unaffiliated/dous] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:41:52 -!- luqui [~luqui@97-118-116-41.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: luqui] 20:42:39 -!- _d3f [~freedo@nl2.ovpn.to] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:42:58 is there a non-truenaming probe-file on sbcl? 20:43:32 CLOS can be tricky -- and even worse if you want optimization. Are you using PCL or a derivative thereof? 20:43:43 -!- killerboy is now known as London 20:44:38 luqui [~luqui@97-118-116-41.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 20:44:48 drmeister, did you contact that ilc2012 author? 20:45:14 Fare: what does that mean? 20:45:41 -!- London is now known as killerboy 20:46:05 stassats`, something like probe-file, but that doesn't try to give me a truename if the file exists 20:46:20 Fare: No - it doesn't look relevant to my work. The guy is using C++ template programming in ways that it should not be used. C++ templates are to macro programming what IRS tax forms are to literature. 20:47:10 Fare: don't use the return value then? 20:47:18 he got the C++ compiler to do a lot of his optimizations and type analysis for him. 20:47:32 stassats`, that doesn't improve performance, does it? 20:47:40 (that's what I'm doing already) 20:47:55 Fare: but can't you use the argument you're passing to it? 20:48:10 Fare: C++ template programming has been demonstrated to be Turing complete. 20:48:40 We know. :-) 20:48:52 I could use sb-posix:stat, except that asdf can't rely on sb-posix, when sb-posix currently relies on asdf to be loaded. 20:48:53 Fare: or is resolving symlinks so costly? 20:49:00 Fare: Horrible, nasty and ugly yet Turing complete. 20:49:26 Thra11_ [~thrall@146.90.20.231] has joined #lisp 20:49:34 stassats`, it's eating over 53% of my time. 20:49:53 unlike the C preprocessor macros that are just nasty and ugly. 20:50:00 and horrible. 20:50:34 there's sb-unix:unix-stat, although sb-unix isn't supposed to be used 20:50:45 does it work on windows? 20:50:57 if it does, I don't care what they say about not supposed to be used. 20:50:59 can you try it and see how faster does it make things? 20:51:56 sure 20:52:05 -!- Thra11 [~thrall@5.102.113.87.dyn.plus.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:52:17 but still, if it's not there on windows, that's a downer -- unless there's something equivalent (but I can't test) 20:52:27 well, if you're going that road, try (sb-impl::query-file-system path :existence) then 20:52:31 works on windows 20:53:11 but it's the same as probe-file on windows 20:54:07 yes, reading the source, it works on windows. 20:54:51 -!- foreignFunction [~niksaak@94.27.88.67] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:54:52 still, i expect sb-unix:unix-stat to be faster on non-windows 20:55:08 faster than query-file-system? 20:55:16 especially since query-file-system is the same as probe-file, and windows usually don't have symlinks 20:55:18 yes 20:55:39 ok 20:56:27 bare sb-unix:unix-stat fails on broken symlinks 20:56:36 not fails, returns NIL 20:56:49 snearch [~snearch@f053005183.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 20:57:58 sb-unix:unix-stat is actually available on windows 20:58:34 but i'm not sure as to semantics of it 20:59:57 so, i'd use unix-stat, and test on all platforms 21:02:38 -!- yrk [~user@pdpc/supporter/student/yrk] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:03:07 pjb: herep? is there a clisp'ism for probing w/o resolving? 21:04:34 strange that LOAD has :if-does-not-exist, but C-F doesn't 21:05:41 Fare: can you use LOAD with :if-does-not-exist for something without probe-file first? 21:06:39 I'm not trying to load those files 21:06:47 not those 21:06:56 you do load some files, don't you? 21:07:01 -!- s0ber [~s0ber@114-25-206-180.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:07:03 yes 21:08:39 s0ber [~s0ber@114-36-226-131.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 21:16:45 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 21:16:51 sdemarre [~serge@109.134.128.207] has joined #lisp 21:18:19 toekutr [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 21:19:21 -!- Jambato [~Jambato@2a01:e35:2f15:c40:211:d8ff:fe7d:2c4a] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:19:29 Fare: Actually, I know very little implementation specific stuff, since I try as much as possible to write conforming code. 21:20:41 I don't know why, but using implementation specific things, always involves a degree of pain, present or future 21:20:46 lispworks has get-file-stat on unix but not windows 21:21:41 -!- weie [~eie@softbank221078042071.bbtec.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 21:22:09 -!- ubii [~ubii@184.21.196.19] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:23:44 -!- larryg [~larryg@109.227.36.174] has quit [Quit: larryg] 21:25:07 larryg [~larryg@109.227.36.174] has joined #lisp 21:25:14 -!- dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 21:25:27 Keshi [~Keshi@unaffiliated/keshi] has joined #lisp 21:25:38 -!- breakds [~breakds@ppp-70-226-163-93.dsl.mdsnwi.ameritech.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 21:25:45 ok, what about ccl? 21:28:24 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:29:12 ccl is strange. It exports symbols named with a %, and doesn't export some other that would be useful and not named with %. 21:29:45 -!- sirdancealot1 [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:30:01 pjb: perhaps the exporter is the seed for their random number generator. can't make it too predictable then, can we? 21:30:10 reckler [~reckler@ppp118-208-0-126.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 21:30:16 And even if you could use linux:stat in clisp, linux is not always available and obviously, not on all systems. 21:30:32 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu2.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 21:31:27 #+clisp POSIX:FILE-STAT exists, at least on POSIX systems, I'd assume. 21:33:43 pjb: how do I detect whether Linux is available? 21:33:54 or posix? 21:34:19 (ignore-errors (require ...) then if find-symbol? 21:34:35 (find-package "LINUX") 21:34:52 maybe file-write-date is a better portable probe-file than probe-file? 21:35:16 that would be fun 21:35:48 sirdancealot1 [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 21:37:35 Fare: Also, things have changed between 2.48 and 2.49, now modules are always dynamically loaded. See how I relaunch clisp in script when linux is not available in http://git.informatimago.com/viewgit/index.php?a=viewblob&p=public/bin&h=476eec4372b5c3699cce4ee6e619f4457119a3b6&hb=c4debe1f195d759835acbca4fe4689aa6d44ca43&f=script.lisp 21:38:05 pjb: I've used (funcall 'require foo) to avoid static magic of (require foo) 21:39:05 pjb: ouch 21:40:07 of course, on clisp, file-write-date fails on directories 21:40:25 It's not directory-write-date. 21:40:26 -!- kmels [~kmels@frbg-5d84fa80.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:40:28 ZabaQ [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has joined #lisp 21:40:54 But POSIX:FILE-STAT works on directories as it should. 21:43:28 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:43:55 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 21:44:37 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:45:51 -!- AeroNotix [~xeno@abos254.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:46:31 -!- rdqfdx [~rdqfdx@78.90.88.244] has quit [Quit: terminated!] 21:46:49 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 21:48:34 Fare: and anyways, nowadays, noatime et al. won't give you any meaningful result there. 21:48:54 -!- sdemarre [~serge@109.134.128.207] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:49:31 -!- francisl [~anonymous@69.157.141.16] has quit [Quit: francisl] 21:49:33 -!- answer_42 [~answer_42@gateway/tor-sasl/answer42/x-66983568] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:49:53 normanrichards [~normanric@rrcs-108-178-120-144.sw.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:51:02 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-170-179.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:52:36 noatime ? 21:53:02 pjb: how do I detect if posix:file-stat is available? 21:53:49 (find-package 21:53:54 pjb: file-write-date is the mtime 21:53:55 "POSIX") 21:54:15 do I need to require it? 21:54:26 in an eval-when? 21:54:37 -!- danlentz [~green13@2601:c:3680:1c:21d:4fff:fe4b:1779] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:54:45 fe[nl]ix: yes, but IIRC, there are options to avoid writing it for directories, for when you're writing on a SSD. 21:54:56 Fare: No, it's there or it's not. 21:55:45 ok 21:55:58 Or perhaps it's #+syscalls. One would have to check the doc or the sources. 21:56:17 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f755ab6.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 21:58:11 -!- youlysses [~user@75-132-17-145.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:59:41 danlentz [~green13@2601:c:3680:1c:21d:4fff:fe4b:1779] has joined #lisp 22:01:05 kofno [~kofno@cpe-24-165-213-11.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:02:31 pjb: yeah, there's noatime, relatime and diratime 22:02:45 but that has nothing to do with file-write-data which returns the mtime 22:03:13 peterhil [~peterhil@91-157-48-10.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 22:03:40 dabd_ [~dabd@a95-93-205-168.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 22:04:33 BrianRice [~water@c-24-18-219-78.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:07:50 -!- Thra11_ [~thrall@146.90.20.231] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:08:33 -!- LiamH [~none@pool-173-48-164-128.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:10:42 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:12:45 lduros` [~user@64-121-246-8.c3-0.rdl-ubr1.trpr-rdl.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 22:13:27 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:14:02 -!- snearch [~snearch@f053005183.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 22:17:23 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-174-41.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 22:21:23 *Fare* emerges out of #+ land 22:22:39 Thra11 [~thrall@31.185.183.89] has joined #lisp 22:22:54 how can I express a float NaN? 22:23:33 does unix-stat take a *native* namestring? 22:24:29 -!- Indecipherable [~Indeciphe@41.13.24.28] has quit [Quit: used jmIrc] 22:25:12 skbierm [~sascha@p4FEA06BE.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 22:26:08 -!- Thra11 [~thrall@31.185.183.89] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:27:20 -!- larryg [~larryg@109.227.36.174] has quit [Quit: larryg] 22:27:35 ok, got a modest speedup, but still not enough. 22:27:47 worstadmin [~worst@174.141.213.38] has joined #lisp 22:29:00 Fare: which version of CLisp are you using? 22:29:02 especially not enough when I *am* resolving symlinks 22:29:11 prxq: right now 2.44.1 22:29:16 ok 22:29:21 I'm not worried about performance on clisp, though 22:29:23 Fare: becaue it is in debian? 22:29:29 old ubuntu 22:29:29 you should add 2.48 and 2.49 to your tests 22:29:41 There are significant differences between the three. 22:29:42 next week I'll upgrade to a newer ubuntu that has 2.49 22:29:45 -!- lduros` [~user@64-121-246-8.c3-0.rdl-ubr1.trpr-rdl.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:29:51 pjb: isn't even 2.49 long in the tooth? 22:29:52 I don't care about perf on clisp, only on sbcl 22:30:01 when are they releasing 2.50 ? 22:30:03 arrdem: implementation dependent, i think 22:30:10 I hope they upgrade their asdf from 2.011 when they do 22:30:12 Fare: that's reasonable, IMO 22:30:30 lduros` [~user@64-121-246-8.c3-0.rdl-ubr1.trpr-rdl.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 22:30:34 -!- puchacz [~puchacz@46-65-36-47.zone16.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:31:15 and, pjb, can you not pester the good clisp folks to get someone to do some web design for them? Their page is butt-ugly 22:33:00 Try it under w3m. 22:33:29 :-) 22:33:52 pjb: do you use the development version? 22:34:46 No, I use the releases. 2.49+ and 2.48 depending on the distributions. 22:35:01 Thra11 [~thrall@87.114.242.203] has joined #lisp 22:35:19 pjb: i ask because you have mentioned 2.49+, so I wonder where the #\+ comes from 22:35:30 I'm now satisfied with performance when not resolving symlinks, but when resolving symlinks, I'm still at a 3.5x slowdown since 2.26. 22:36:25 pjb: what options do you pass to configure? JIT and threads? 22:37:17 ah, yes, it may be a version from mercurial. But clisp --version gives GNU CLISP 2.49+ (2010-07-17) ; <-- 22:37:28 I have threads, but not jit. 22:37:36 Some dependency for jit didn't compile IIRC. 22:38:14 why doesn't clisp release more often? 22:38:18 pjb: POSIX threads, I presume 22:38:31 pjb: are they reasonably stable? 22:39:24 http://paste.lisp.org/+2W4F 22:39:30 My clisp compile script. 22:39:36 still 51% time spent in probe-file* when resolving symlinks :-/ 22:39:57 Well, I don't have thread heavy programs, so far I didn't notice any problem. 22:40:00 -!- Thra11 [~thrall@87.114.242.203] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:40:26 -!- skbierm [~sascha@p4FEA06BE.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:40:58 skbierm [~sascha@p4FEA0BC4.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 22:41:00 pjb: thanks. Can you post the command line with which you check out the sources? 22:42:59 check the annotation to see how I compiled the hg clone I got then. And here: http://sourceforge.net/scm/?type=hg&group_id=1355 22:43:53 breakds [~breakds@ppp-70-226-163-93.dsl.mdsnwi.ameritech.net] has joined #lisp 22:44:05 That said, gentoo and debian still use 2.48 so that's what is used in my scripts. 22:44:31 axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-88-224.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:44:55 ok. thanks 22:46:42 how on abcl do I detect whether I'm on windows, already? 22:47:38 -!- axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-88-224.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 22:48:13 Should it make any difference? I thought jvm was run everywhere. 22:48:51 axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-88-224.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:48:52 Thra11 [~thrall@87.115.153.114] has joined #lisp 22:49:36 -!- worstadmin [~worst@174.141.213.38] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:51:43 -!- edgar-rft [~GOD@HSI-KBW-149-172-63-75.hsi13.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Quit: panic] 22:52:24 tcr1 [~tcr@84-72-21-32.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 22:52:44 the filesystem isn't 22:55:15 -!- Patzy [~something@lns-bzn-51f-81-56-151-137.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:57:30 -!- ehu [ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:58:02 -!- Keshi [~Keshi@unaffiliated/keshi] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 23:00:47 pjb: is 2.49+ a release? 23:00:58 francisl [~anonymous@69.157.141.16] has joined #lisp 23:02:09 -!- Thra11 [~thrall@87.115.153.114] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:02:50 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@rrcs-108-178-120-144.sw.biz.rr.com] has quit [] 23:04:16 I've build clisp today 23:04:31 after long time 23:05:20 kiwnix [~egarcia@62.83.120.113.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 23:05:35 ihmo, the thing clisp maintainers could improve is build 23:06:41 8 steps INSTALL guidline, and some steps are non-trivial, like "install this 5 libraries" 23:07:15 other lisps, like ECL or SBCL are easier to build 23:07:19 antonv: it looks like they need someone to take care of this 23:07:54 yes 23:08:36 as of web page, it's ok for me, doesn't require any efforts from me, in contrast to build 23:08:45 antonv: you perhaps :-) 23:09:00 prxq: unlikely 23:09:34 why 23:09:53 not that I don't want it to be fixed, but my power is limited 23:10:36 antonv: how do you build it? I'm somewhat surprised that most compiling seems to be done when doing make install, instead of just make 23:10:46 I have too big list of things to be done. Much more than I really able to acomplish. Putting one more thing into this list is unreal 23:11:06 compiling is done during just make 23:12:03 maybe "make install" depends on "make", I haven't tried to "make install" without "make" 23:12:09 -!- BountyX [~andrew@76.14.65.229] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:12:37 uh, make install should be done after make in just about everything i've ever built 23:13:10 -!- Bike [~Glossina@63-229-134-7.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: dead] 23:14:30 antonv: which additional modules do you compile? 23:15:28 tmp.c:717:5: error: redefinition of main 23:15:39 I did just --with-module=readline --with-module=rawsock --with-ffcall 23:16:00 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu2.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:16:40 *prxq* tries that 23:17:13 Bike [~Glossina@63-229-134-7.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 23:17:24 -!- stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-236-114.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 23:17:47 -!- axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-88-224.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.0-dev] 23:18:17 ah, it does not generate a parallelizable makefile (to be run e.g.with make -j 5) 23:18:45 Does anyone every use (flet ((setf XXX) ...) ...) or (labels ((setf YYY ...) ...)? 23:19:03 Sorry "ever use". 23:19:08 drmeister: i've done that 23:19:11 axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-88-224.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:19:36 -!- danlentz [~green13@2601:c:3680:1c:21d:4fff:fe4b:1779] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:19:38 Thra11 [~thrall@46.208.73.94] has joined #lisp 23:20:10 prxq: (sigh) I'm trying to wrap my head around it. What is it for? I'm trying to figure out how to implement it. 23:20:16 zmisc [ad627cec@pdpc/supporter/student/zmisc] has joined #lisp 23:20:37 what do you mean what's it for, it's for locally defining a function called (setf xxx) 23:20:52 -!- quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:22:27 drmeister: i'm somewhat worried about you implementing a cl compiler. It doesn't look like you know CL well enough. 23:22:59 prxq: Worry away. 23:23:41 -!- tali713 [~tali713@c-75-72-193-140.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net] 23:23:43 danlentz [~green13@2601:c:3680:1c:21d:4fff:fe4b:1779] has joined #lisp 23:23:53 (setf xxx) is just a function name, so it's the same as defining a local function with a regular symbol for a function name, except there's also the setf expander effect 23:23:58 Keshi [~Keshi@unaffiliated/keshi] has joined #lisp 23:24:48 -!- dfox [~dfox@rei.ipv6.dfox.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:25:10 drmeister: frankly, it doesn't look like you know what you are doing 23:25:27 vlion [~vlion@66-87-68-147.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 23:25:38 I understand that. Functions associated with symbol names are stored in the function slot of the symbol for global variables and bound to symbols in the lexical environment. (SETF xxx) functions are stored in implementation dependent ways. 23:26:11 normanrichards [~normanric@70.114.215.220] has joined #lisp 23:26:12 so what's the problem 23:26:32 to get all consisten ? 23:26:41 prxq: Ah, but I do. I have a self-hosting compiler that generates LLVM-IR which generates native code. It compiles most of the Common Lisp source code from ECL. 23:26:43 +t* 23:26:58 drmeister: ok 23:27:44 -!- ZabaQ [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:29:43 -!- axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-88-224.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.0-dev] 23:30:07 While my questions sound stupid - many times they are quite deep because I'm running into implementation details deep in CL that someone who hasn't written a CL compiler may not be aware of. 23:30:36 I thought you were targetting C++ ? 23:30:43 On the other hand it may really be a stupid question. It's a little hard to tell sometimes. 23:31:42 drmeister: well, when you ask what (labels (((setf foo) ... is for, then it looks like you don't know much CL 23:31:53 IMO 23:32:24 Fare: Targetting? I've written an CL interpreter in C++ and I'm writing a compiler in CL running on the interpreter. The interpreter works fine. I'm still working on the compiler. 23:32:59 drmeister: personally, I wish you success. 23:33:12 -!- add^_ [~add^_@m83-190-167-197.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: The Garbage Collector got me...] 23:33:16 -!- leoncamel [~leoncamel@124.126.222.38] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:34:22 drmeister: what Fare's asking is how you plan to have an easy C++ FFI? 23:35:03 dfox [~dfox@rei.ipv6.dfox.org] has joined #lisp 23:35:16 prxq: I'm trying to figure out how to implement (labels ((setf foo...))) My lexical environments don't support them yet. Environments are one of the most implementation dependent details in CL. 23:35:57 drmeister: that's why you should know how to do them: you are the implementer! 23:36:09 quazimodo [~quazimodo@c122-106-147-75.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 23:36:11 -!- impulse- [~impulse@bas3-toronto48-1177960460.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:36:43 impulse [~impulse@bas3-toronto48-1177960460.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 23:37:06 pjb: I already have an easy C++ FFI. The C++ statement DEFUN("XXXX",&XXXX) creates a CL function XXXX and binds it to the C++ function XXXX. All argument translation is handled automagically by C++ templates. It's like boost::python. 23:37:21 drmeister: what's funnier, is how setf which is a macro will know that there's a (setf foo) local function! 23:38:15 drmeister: oh, so it's a C++ FFI to CL, not a CL FFI to C++. Then why are you writing your own implementation? The C++ FFI could target any CL implementation! sbcl for example. 23:38:56 axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-88-224.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:39:06 pjb: The FFI goes both ways. I smoothly call C++ from CL and CL from C++. 23:39:16 Ah ok. 23:40:48 drmeister: Is this an open source system of yours? 23:41:41 pjb: It's not an FFI like the one I see in SBCL. You don't have to map C++ structures and classes into CL. 23:42:08 vlion: It will be. 23:43:21 ECL stores (setf XXXX) global functions in a hash-table of hash-tables using a pair of functions called SET-SYSPROP and GET-SYSPROP. 23:43:39 I don't know what ECL does for lexical ones. 23:43:56 -!- hydan [~udzinari@ip-89-102-13-27.net.upcbroadband.cz] has left #lisp 23:45:00 -!- axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-88-224.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.0-dev] 23:45:10 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-590c0bb6.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:45:25 Joreji [~thomas@84-182.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 23:46:12 -!- toekutr [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:46:39 hydan-zzZZzz [~udzinari@ip-89-102-13-27.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 23:52:09 -!- vlion [~vlion@66-87-68-147.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi] 23:53:03 -!- Joreji [~thomas@84-182.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:53:37 Dalek_Baldwin1 [~Adium@71-84-34-33.dhcp.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has joined #lisp 23:54:08 -!- kofno [~kofno@cpe-24-165-213-11.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:54:14 -!- Dalek_Baldwin [~Adium@71-84-34-33.dhcp.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:58:59 -!- leoc [~leoc.git@p5DDBB860.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:59:20 vlion [~vlion@66-87-68-147.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 23:59:44 Joreji [~thomas@84-182.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp