00:00:50 zacts [~user@unaffiliated/zacts] has joined #lisp 00:00:59 sirdancealot [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 00:01:39 jsfb [~jon@unaffiliated/jsfb] has joined #lisp 00:01:43 cfy [~ilisp@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 00:02:48 -!- LiamH [~none@132.250.138.103] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:03:38 -!- adelgado [~TomSawyer@c-66-229-185-165.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:05:21 linse [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1177917310.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 00:05:52 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 00:05:54 -!- Fare [fare@nat/google/x-yphnxmkqlchhapjf] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 00:06:05 -!- agumonkey [~agu@240.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:07:31 -!- Thra11 [~thrall@87.112.186.70] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:10:01 -!- findiggle [~kirkwood@173-10-106-172-BusName-Washington.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:15:03 francisl_ [~flavoie@bas6-montreal45-1176029516.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 00:17:03 vibhu [~zorro@host86-145-74-200.range86-145.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 00:18:44 -!- Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-72-66-99-183.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:20:51 -!- EvW [~Thunderbi@a82-92-190-215.adsl.xs4all.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:20:53 Fare [~fare@173-9-65-97-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 00:22:13 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:22:23 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f7546d8.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 00:25:42 -!- Qworkescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 00:29:09 jack_rabbit [~kyle@c-98-253-60-75.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:29:26 milosn [~milosn@user-5AF5079B.broadband.tesco.net] has joined #lisp 00:30:04 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@166.137.123.161] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:32:30 -!- milosn_ [~milosn@user-5AF50613.broadband.tesco.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:32:48 -!- francisl_ [~flavoie@bas6-montreal45-1176029516.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: francisl_] 00:35:15 adelgado [~TomSawyer@c-66-229-185-165.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:35:30 -!- mutley89 [~mutley89@cpc1-swin14-2-0-cust274.3-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:39:40 -!- [SLB] is now known as [SLB]` 00:40:34 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@84-72-21-32.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:42:18 -!- vibhu [~zorro@host86-145-74-200.range86-145.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:42:38 ficklefinkle [~ficklefin@108-250-133-41.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:42:53 I programmed a program in lisp! 00:42:56 What next? 00:42:58 Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-72-66-99-183.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:43:08 run it? 00:43:11 Is it possible to program a program that programs a program? 00:43:33 dim: I did :) 00:43:50 so it's time to try it with real data, see it crash and debug it? :) 00:44:23 ficklefinkle: we call them compilers, often. 00:46:36 ficklefinkle: congrats! what have you built? 00:47:07 am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has joined #lisp 00:49:27 danlentz [~danlentz@c-68-37-70-235.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:52:51 -!- francisl [~anonymous@bas6-montreal45-1176029516.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: francisl] 00:56:38 -!- breakds [~breakds@wifi-116.cs.wisc.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:00:19 -!- urandom__ [~user@ip-88-152-207-199.unitymediagroup.de] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 01:00:42 sw2wolf [~czsq888@61.157.43.129] has joined #lisp 01:03:27 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 01:05:55 program a program that programs a program... like (LOOP (PRINT (EVAL (READ)))) ? :) 01:11:04 -!- danlentz [~danlentz@c-68-37-70-235.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi] 01:13:24 sleep is pausing the current thread or the whole lisp image? 01:14:07 dim: the standard doesn't say it, but i've seen thread. 01:14:40 is bordeaux-thread maybe providing something better? 01:14:52 you /want/ the whole image to sleep? 01:15:26 no 01:15:47 I want to be sure that only the current thread is gently waiting rather than saturating the consumer 01:16:18 i think it is safe to assume that on multiple threads, the thread is sleeping. it is one of the few functions that are reasonable to count on. 01:16:41 even in the case of using one processor core and still having multiple threads. 01:17:05 dim, maybe you want to use conditions 01:17:20 dim, or should I say, condition variables 01:17:54 dim: the reason why the spec doesn't talk about it, is because it doesn't talk about multithreading. 01:18:41 -!- Kvaks_ [~kvaks@35.163.189.109.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 01:20:03 -!- Jubb [~ghost@pool-108-28-62-61.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:21:20 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:23:11 -!- Demosthenex [~Demosthen@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 01:23:46 Kvaks_ [~kvaks@80.161.189.109.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 01:24:48 normanrichards [~normanric@166.137.123.161] has joined #lisp 01:25:12 Demosthenex [~Demosthen@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 01:26:52 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 01:27:01 -!- Dalek_Baldwin [~Adium@108-225-26-178.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:27:08 slyrus [~chatzilla@70-90-161-58-ca.sfba.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 01:31:19 yeah 01:31:25 so it's implementation defined 01:33:21 brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-142-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:33:54 -!- ebobby [~fms@189.170.16.14] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:36:55 drmeiste_ [~drmeister@pool-71-185-82-146.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:36:56 I'm doing that now (let ((qc (lq:queue-count dataq))) (when (< 50000 qc) (incf sleeps) (sleep 0.0001))) 01:37:30 see using the queue size as the condition when to sleep, I don't think the other size of the queue has a better mean to know that it needs some delay 01:37:45 baring delays, crash, out of memory, SBCL dies 01:39:00 you could try to use a bounded quee, or at least some sort of proportional backoff. 01:39:20 if it's sbcl there's sb-queue 01:39:24 -!- doomlord [~doomlod@host86-162-165-225.range86-162.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 01:39:32 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-185-82-146.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:39:52 I like the lparallel API, will consider something else, would prefer something that works in several implementations (I also use CCL) 01:39:52 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:40:15 dim: it is, however, if you have an implementation with threads, you could assume that it sleeps. i'd be much much more worried about the granularity of sleep. 01:40:26 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:40:41 hmm, I actually meant the mailbox implementation in sb-concurrency 01:40:49 dim: you also have access to thread-yield to limit starvation issues. 01:40:53 -!- ski [~ski@c80-216-142-165.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 257 seconds] 01:41:52 I will investigate 01:42:20 I'm sending > 3 millions rows in the queue here 01:42:31 maybe there's something smarted that lparallel.queue for that 01:42:47 simple producer/consumer implementation to pipe data in and out 01:42:58 with some light processing in between 01:44:52 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@70-90-161-58-ca.sfba.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:45:20 to be able to pass my latest tests I've put the producer thread to sleep for 20s cumulated 01:45:32 you'll tell me that it's better than a crash, of course, but still 01:46:05 (sleep 0.001) is what I've used, I've checked with (time (sleep x)) that it's not under the threshold 01:46:21 maybe I should go under the threshold and that would allow enough headroom to the consumer? 01:46:40 I don't see the problem. In fact, I don't get why you'd want such a long queue for a consumer-producer pattern. 01:47:00 -!- Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-72-66-99-183.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:47:20 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@1.129.72.61] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 01:47:32 it's just that the producer is reading data and the consumer is writing it, it's a data migration/replication, if you will, and the writing to disk is much slower than the reading (from memory mostly, cached data) 01:48:14 dim: are you building an open source owncloud-like system? 01:48:17 and the real problem I want to avoid is SBCL crashing into its ldb UI on some out of memory condition 01:48:27 madnificent: just doing MySQL --> PostgreSQL migration 01:48:40 right. So why do you want such a long queue? 01:48:40 yet another one, so I'm tooling myself 01:48:51 dim: please reconsider and do the owncloud thing instead ^_^ 01:49:11 pkhuong: because the only lib I know to implement that idea is lparallel, with threading and a queue 01:49:17 dim: why the step through sbcl? 01:49:44 because my usual tool is too slow (python, pgloader) 01:50:19 i was more thinking: can't you dump the mysql database and load it in postgres. perhaps even piping. 01:50:49 I'm exactly doing that. In CL. With lparallel and its queue. 01:51:22 Producer/consumer is a perfect application for bounded queues (like unix pipes). Find some way to get bounded queues out of lparallel, and everything will just work naturally. The only thing you'll have to tweak is the queue size. 01:51:26 because I need some extra processing, like '0000-00-00' on a date field has to become NULL before PostgreSQL gets to see it 01:51:52 right. I'm kind of doing that I guess with the queue-size check 01:52:01 the kind-of going away would be good 01:52:04 dim: ah, now it's making sense. good luck. and i concur with pkhuong 01:53:04 it does not seem that lparallel implements bouded queue 01:54:18 I don't know how lq is implemented. If it's lock-free, queue-count is likely very slow for such a long queue, if you're worried about the producer spinning and wasting CPU time (is that an issue if the consumer is IO bound anyway?). 01:54:44 xenon_ [~yhiselamu@lap.ee] has joined #lisp 01:54:56 I'm worried about SBCL crashing where there isn't enough memory to hold the data in the queue anymore 01:55:31 the size of the data I'm moving is greater than --dynamic-space-size or RAM size even 01:56:24 kpreid [~kpreid@50-196-148-102-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 01:57:22 well yeah, but that only happens because you let the queue grow to so many work units. Most probably, either your work units are overly tiny, or there's no need for such a high limit (50k). 01:58:19 I'm actually trying a much smaller limit, I wonder if (sleep 0.00001) (less that the hardware resolution) is a good idea or not 01:59:07 Why do you insert a sleep? Is it an issue if the producer wastes CPU time? 01:59:57 ebobby [~fms@189.170.16.14] has joined #lisp 02:00:25 it's not, you're thinking about an active wait loop? 02:02:30 I think I mean buzy wait loop, maybe 02:02:30 Why not? Very short sleeps might not do what you want and either busy loop or cause much longer pauses than you expect. That's why I suggested a proportional backoff if you must sleep instead of using a proper bounded queue or simply spinning. 02:02:32 ETOOLATE 02:02:59 (loop repeat 5000) 02:03:45 yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.169] has joined #lisp 02:07:07 ikki [~ikki@187.240.179.197] has joined #lisp 02:08:30 -!- ebobby [~fms@189.170.16.14] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:09:10 -!- jamall [~jamall@164.111.134.201] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:11:09 lmj` [~lmj`@c-71-234-73-154.hsd1.ct.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:11:28 dim: I just sent you an email 02:11:44 you should enable the vector-based queue in lparallel 02:11:59 oh hey lmj` :) 02:12:27 trying that then, looks a proper solution 02:12:31 +like 02:12:53 I went back and forth about whether the default should be vector or not, so both are there. 02:13:20 get it 02:13:38 maybe make-queue should accept a :with-a-vector-please argument? 02:14:41 is there a common class or interface (either built in or third party) for iterating over a sequnce? 02:15:02 something like doseq which some implementations have 02:15:09 xenon_: map nil. 02:15:22 good point, forgot about that one 02:15:31 xenon_: there's crhodes's sequences. it's in sbcl and abcl at least. (and if you just mean (or vector list), then yeah, map nil) 02:16:10 DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@1.149.235.121] has joined #lisp 02:16:16 Bike: map is specified to work over all sequences. 02:16:39 my mistake. 02:17:41 -!- ipmonger [~ipmonger@c-68-81-244-69.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:19:49 lmj`: seems to be working fine, I'm going to launch the real test on the local big table 02:20:51 lmj`: is there a way to check that the queue created is using a vector now? 02:21:01 appart from brute force testing? :) 02:22:06 the machine is dying and so am I, another day 02:22:28 dim: (describe (lparallel.queue:make-queue)) will be a structure. Or M-. lparallel.raw-queue:make-raw-queue to see where it takes you. 02:22:40 leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.66] has joined #lisp 02:22:50 dim: you're pre-allocating, right? 02:23:03 though resizing may not be a big deal 02:25:37 -!- ASau` is now known as ASau 02:30:07 kanru [~kanru@118-163-10-190.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 02:35:24 ebobby [~fms@189.170.16.14] has joined #lisp 02:37:24 -!- Fare [~fare@173-9-65-97-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:38:54 pkhuong: the workaround for the cl-store issue I had was to call cl-store:store once before calling it concurrently. 02:39:29 -!- ebobby [~fms@189.170.16.14] has quit [Client Quit] 02:39:31 Maybe there is some computation on the first method call that isn't thread-safe. 02:39:54 On the sbcl side, that is. 02:40:28 rmathews [~roshan@122.174.58.154] has joined #lisp 02:41:32 -!- Ymir [~ymirr@188.115.27.139] has quit [Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)] 02:41:46 -!- pyx [~pyx@108.162.178.78] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.0] 02:50:19 jamall [~jamall@24-178-190-203.static.leds.al.charter.com] has joined #lisp 02:51:12 Fare [fare@nat/google/x-ikplkpgxxnwvgunh] has joined #lisp 02:52:33 -!- Juanito-Jons [~jreynoso@187.240.179.197] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 02:53:33 -!- Joreji [~thomas@84-182.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:54:29 -!- zacts [~user@unaffiliated/zacts] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 02:57:36 lmj`: class finalisation, maybe. We're supposed to be thread safe, but there's a lot of stuff that's computed on demand. 03:05:52 -!- worstadmin is now known as jpee87 03:11:17 Jubb [~ghost@pool-108-28-62-61.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:12:50 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@166.137.123.161] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:14:09 francisl [~anonymous@bas6-montreal45-1176029516.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 03:16:06 -!- lmj` [~lmj`@c-71-234-73-154.hsd1.ct.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 03:21:19 Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 03:22:38 zacts [~user@unaffiliated/zacts] has joined #lisp 03:26:31 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@1.149.235.121] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:26:36 DataLinkD2 [~DataLinkD@1.149.235.121] has joined #lisp 03:26:41 night 03:26:43 -!- xenon_ [~yhiselamu@lap.ee] has left #lisp 03:30:48 -!- Demosthenex [~Demosthen@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 03:32:34 Demosthenex [~Demosthen@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 03:34:07 Gooder [~user@218.69.12.194] has joined #lisp 03:40:54 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:43:09 fisxoj [~fisxoj@c-24-12-190-29.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:44:19 -!- Bike [~Glossina@63-229-134-7.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:46:23 Bike [~Glossina@63-229-134-7.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 03:46:56 jamall_ [~jamall@24-178-190-203.static.leds.al.charter.com] has joined #lisp 03:47:41 -!- zacts [~user@unaffiliated/zacts] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:47:56 -!- Gooder [~user@218.69.12.194] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:48:06 Gooder [~user@218.69.12.194] has joined #lisp 03:48:28 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:48:43 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has joined #lisp 03:49:11 -!- jamall [~jamall@24-178-190-203.static.leds.al.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:52:35 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 03:54:06 -!- jsfb [~jon@unaffiliated/jsfb] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 03:57:54 Quadresce_ [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 03:58:56 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:59:32 -!- Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:59:41 -!- Quadresce_ is now known as Quadrescence 04:01:22 Dalek_Baldwin [~Adium@71-84-34-33.dhcp.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has joined #lisp 04:01:37 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 04:03:20 -!- benny [~user@i577A3BAB.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 04:07:32 scoofy [~scoofy@catv-89-135-71-167.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 04:11:12 -!- jamall_ [~jamall@24-178-190-203.static.leds.al.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:15:00 -!- _tca [~user@h151.25.91.207.static.ip.windstream.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:16:11 -!- yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.169] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 04:18:44 vlion_ [~vlion@66-87-70-120.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 04:19:22 -!- ikki [~ikki@187.240.179.197] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 04:19:37 qptain_Nemo [~qN@89.207.216.208] has joined #lisp 04:19:59 -!- ThomasH [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/thomash] has left #lisp 04:20:57 lusory [~lusory@bb42-60-31-187.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 04:21:19 -!- linse [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1177917310.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: linse] 04:21:38 DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@1.148.229.228] has joined #lisp 04:22:36 -!- DataLinkD2 [~DataLinkD@1.149.235.121] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 04:22:44 -!- suodla [~suodla@210.24.42.190] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 04:26:02 suodla [~suodla@210.24.42.190] has joined #lisp 04:27:50 linse [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1177917310.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 04:33:11 -!- rmathews [~roshan@122.174.58.154] has quit [Quit: ...] 04:36:41 yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.169] has joined #lisp 04:41:48 -!- n0vember [~n0vember@shutdown.illusi0n.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:42:28 -!- ahungry [~null@99-40-10-216.lightspeed.livnmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 04:43:49 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:44:47 danlentz [~green13@2601:c:3680:1c:21d:4fff:fe4b:1779] has joined #lisp 04:45:17 msxx [~msxx@37.244.207.223] has joined #lisp 04:47:58 pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has joined #lisp 04:48:50 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 04:49:15 foreignFunction [~niksaak@94.27.88.117] has joined #lisp 04:51:43 -!- vlion_ [~vlion@66-87-70-120.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi] 04:53:50 d 04:55:28 rwiker [~rwiker@80.202.198.32] has joined #lisp 04:55:34 -!- rwiker [~rwiker@80.202.198.32] has quit [Client Quit] 04:57:27 -!- Buglouse [~Buglouse@unaffiliated/Buglouse] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 04:58:08 My_Hearing [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 04:58:18 danlentz0 [~danlentz@c-68-37-70-235.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:00:19 -!- Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 05:01:34 rdqfdx [~rdqfdx@78.90.88.244] has joined #lisp 05:01:38 svetlyak40wt [~svetlyak4@broadband-95-84-141-55.nationalcablenetworks.ru] has joined #lisp 05:04:08 -!- setheus [~setheus@107-203-153-73.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 05:04:43 kofno [~kofno@cpe-24-165-210-251.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 05:05:47 gravicappa [~gravicapp@h178-129-81-139.dyn.bashtel.ru] has joined #lisp 05:05:56 -!- kofno [~kofno@cpe-24-165-210-251.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:06:13 kofno [~kofno@cpe-24-165-210-251.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 05:10:43 rmathews [~roshan@122.165.89.11] has joined #lisp 05:10:56 -!- rdqfdx [~rdqfdx@78.90.88.244] has quit [Quit: terminated!] 05:11:51 -!- kofno [~kofno@cpe-24-165-210-251.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:12:17 seerhut [~seerhut@121.197.1.189] has joined #lisp 05:14:15 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@217.17.38.43] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:17:23 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 05:18:00 Buglouse [~Buglouse@unaffiliated/Buglouse] has joined #lisp 05:19:20 kofno [~kofno@cpe-24-165-210-251.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 05:22:40 -!- ragnul [~rjain@66-234-32-156.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 05:26:02 ccorn [~ccorn@i52104.upc-i.chello.nl] has joined #lisp 05:31:41 setheus [~setheus@107-203-153-73.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:32:11 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@92.46.1.14] has joined #lisp 05:32:12 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@92.46.1.14] has quit [Changing host] 05:32:12 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 05:34:17 mobydick [~textual@d122-105-145-213.adl801.sa.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 05:36:59 -!- danlentz0 [~danlentz@c-68-37-70-235.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Dan Lentz ... Out.] 05:39:30 -!- kofno [~kofno@cpe-24-165-210-251.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:41:12 -!- Jubb [~ghost@pool-108-28-62-61.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:42:12 -!- yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.169] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 05:45:15 yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.169] has joined #lisp 05:50:03 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@h178-129-81-139.dyn.bashtel.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:55:04 -!- mobydick [~textual@d122-105-145-213.adl801.sa.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 05:57:57 -!- drmeiste_ [~drmeister@pool-71-185-82-146.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:59:10 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@1.148.229.228] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:59:13 DataLinkD2 [~DataLinkD@1.148.229.228] has joined #lisp 06:00:18 -!- francisl [~anonymous@bas6-montreal45-1176029516.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: francisl] 06:00:33 -!- adelgado [~TomSawyer@c-66-229-185-165.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:00:43 nan_ [~user@178.233.216.230] has joined #lisp 06:00:45 agumonkey [~agu@240.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 06:02:31 -!- yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.169] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:04:46 -!- Buglouse [~Buglouse@unaffiliated/Buglouse] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 06:06:10 -!- linse [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1177917310.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: zzzz] 06:09:53 kofno [~kofno@cpe-24-165-210-251.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 06:12:24 yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.169] has joined #lisp 06:13:11 -!- Gooder [~user@218.69.12.194] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:15:34 -!- msxx [~msxx@37.244.207.223] has quit [Quit: msxx] 06:15:44 -!- ccorn [~ccorn@i52104.upc-i.chello.nl] has quit [Quit: ccorn] 06:18:26 -!- kofno [~kofno@cpe-24-165-210-251.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:19:04 browndawg [~browndawg@117.201.84.97] has joined #lisp 06:19:52 nikodem [~mikey@user-164-126-59-54.play-internet.pl] has joined #lisp 06:24:00 ski [~ski@c80-216-142-165.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 06:26:42 -!- DataLinkD2 [~DataLinkD@1.148.229.228] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 06:31:18 Cymew [~user@fw01.snowmen.se] has joined #lisp 06:32:44 How do you handle anonymous enums with cffi? Only link i could find is "http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.lisp.cffi.devel/482/focus=487" but no hope. 06:33:21 rmathews_ [~roshan@122.165.89.11] has joined #lisp 06:35:30 -!- rmathews [~roshan@122.165.89.11] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:35:30 -!- rmathews_ is now known as rmathews 06:36:34 nan_: you found your answer 06:36:55 oh? 06:37:10 just give it a name 06:38:32 you mean at c side? 06:39:55 rdqfdx [~rdqfdx@78.90.88.244] has joined #lisp 06:42:38 -!- snits [~snits@inet-hqmc03-o.oracle.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 06:43:05 luqui [~luqui@174-16-104-229.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 06:47:19 linse [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1177917310.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 06:47:29 fsvehla [~fsvehla@h081217181184.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 06:49:46 -!- sw2wolf [~czsq888@61.157.43.129] has left #lisp 06:50:32 luqui_ [~luqui@63-227-113-46.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 06:51:39 -!- luqui [luqui@clozure-83E4530.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout] 06:51:40 -!- luqui_ is now known as luqui 06:53:23 robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:53:25 -!- gemelen [~gemelen@gemelen.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:53:30 -!- luqui [~luqui@174-16-104-229.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:53:30 -!- luqui_ is now known as luqui 06:54:04 bitonic`` [~user@ppp-34-176.25-151.libero.it] has joined #lisp 06:55:53 -!- robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:56:07 robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:57:55 gemelen [~gemelen@gemelen.net] has joined #lisp 06:58:50 -!- lukas_ [~lukas@194.228.13.27] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 07:00:51 -!- toekutr [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:00:52 snowylike [~sn@91-67-171-156-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 07:01:13 cdidd [~cdidd@95-26-97-39.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 07:05:56 -!- pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:06:58 Buglouse [~Buglouse@unaffiliated/Buglouse] has joined #lisp 07:11:23 stardiviner [~stardivin@122.236.245.102] has joined #lisp 07:12:14 -!- brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-142-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 07:13:26 -!- rmathews [~roshan@122.165.89.11] has quit [Quit: ...] 07:13:30 -!- dous [~dous@unaffiliated/dous] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:13:31 nilsi [~nilsi@student-245-229.eduroam.uu.se] has joined #lisp 07:14:30 -!- jpee87 [~worst@174.141.213.4] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:14:36 -!- Buglouse [~Buglouse@unaffiliated/Buglouse] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:15:45 mrSpec [~Spec@87-207-172-93.dynamic.chello.pl] has joined #lisp 07:15:45 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@87-207-172-93.dynamic.chello.pl] has quit [Changing host] 07:15:45 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 07:19:11 ludston [~patience@CPE-121-216-102-83.lnse2.ken.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 07:23:46 -!- luqui [~luqui@63-227-113-46.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: luqui] 07:28:14 jpee87 [~worst@174.141.213.6] has joined #lisp 07:28:39 user123abc [~sally@GHC04.GHC.ANDREW.CMU.EDU] has joined #lisp 07:31:09 Keshi [~Keshi@unaffiliated/keshi] has joined #lisp 07:32:27 Buglouse [~Buglouse@unaffiliated/Buglouse] has joined #lisp 07:35:06 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 07:35:59 -!- bitonic`` [~user@ppp-34-176.25-151.libero.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:36:52 -!- Harag [~Thunderbi@41-132-203-67.dsl.mweb.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 07:43:15 -!- nan_ [~user@178.233.216.230] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:47:00 killerboy [~mateusz@217.17.38.43] has joined #lisp 07:49:39 DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@101.175.206.6] has joined #lisp 07:50:03 prxq [~mommer@mnhm-5f75d562.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 07:51:15 -!- Buglouse [~Buglouse@unaffiliated/Buglouse] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:52:54 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@c-24-12-190-29.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:56:50 axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-88-224.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 07:57:44 MrWoohoo [~MrWoohoo@pool-173-67-109-10.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 07:57:58 -!- karswell [~user@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:58:03 ebobby [~fms@189.170.16.14] has joined #lisp 07:58:19 karswell [~user@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 07:59:55 goood morning lispers! 08:00:04 it is a great morning to lithp! 08:00:24 right you are 08:01:44 have some bailey's and coffee before you do 08:02:03 hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has joined #lisp 08:02:03 -!- hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has quit [Changing host] 08:02:03 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 08:02:04 coffee sure, a bit early for the baileys, no? 08:02:27 -!- user123abc [~sally@GHC04.GHC.ANDREW.CMU.EDU] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:02:30 -!- foreignFunction [~niksaak@94.27.88.117] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 08:06:34 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 08:06:36 paolo_m [~user@2-228-95-110.ip190.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 08:07:46 zorkmoid, i thought it might be a bit too early for lisp without baileys 08:07:55 fortran is a coffee-only morning language 08:08:19 Quadrescence: why? lisp is fun, any time of the day 08:08:32 isn't baileys too? :) 08:08:54 -!- ficklefinkle [~ficklefin@108-250-133-41.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 08:08:57 no .. to sweet, and meh .. 08:09:19 now, a nice dram of whiskey... then we talking! 08:09:57 -!- setmeaway [setmeaway3@118.45.149.239] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:09:58 what kind of whiskey are we talking about? 08:10:10 :))) 08:10:16 snowylike: single malt, preferbly 20+ 08:10:24 sounds good 08:10:38 so it's true, lispers do make good drinking buddies 08:11:38 Buglouse [~Buglouse@unaffiliated/Buglouse] has joined #lisp 08:12:43 is there some library that provides the operation 'count the number of trailing 0-bits' for fixnums? 08:12:54 asvil [~user@91.151.182.61] has joined #lisp 08:13:12 0 bits? what is a 0 bit? 08:13:21 -!- gf3 [~gf3@unaffiliated/gf3] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 08:14:15 I am looking for the equivent of __builtin_ctz() described here http://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/gcc-4.4.2/gcc/Other-Builtins.html 08:16:13 -!- Buglouse [~Buglouse@unaffiliated/Buglouse] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:16:25 gf3 [~gf3@unaffiliated/gf3] has joined #lisp 08:17:11 ah 08:17:33 -!- seerhut [~seerhut@121.197.1.189] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:17:58 CL-USER> (defun ctz (n) 08:17:58 (floor (log (logand n (- n)) 2))) 08:18:00 CTZ 08:18:22 CL-USER> (mapcar #'ctz '(#b10 #b1011000)) 08:18:22 (1 3) 08:18:46 varjagg [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 08:19:25 should work .. 08:19:54 -!- Fare [fare@nat/google/x-ikplkpgxxnwvgunh] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:19:59 maybe a bit schlow but .. should work. 08:20:13 clz is almost INTEGER-LENGTH 08:20:17 -!- linse [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1177917310.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: zzzz] 08:20:20 you could do integer-length instead of floor log. 08:20:40 yeah 08:20:56 that is significantly faster 08:21:09 sufficiently smart compiler, etc 08:23:16 -!- stlifey [~stlifey@116.19.143.214] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:25:23 i wrote such a compiler once, but it decided to delete it self :( 08:27:43 I am still digesting all this, but thanks! 08:28:05 sigjuice, (defun ctz (n) (integer-length (logand n (- n)))) 08:28:57 actually 1- that 08:29:13 (1- (integer-length (logand n (- n)))) 08:29:16 I have got a working clisp lisp.run in javascript now; took me about 3 hours of messing around with emscripten 08:30:35 Quadrescence: thanks again! 08:34:26 add some DECLARE and such and it should be fast enough i think 08:36:37 -!- easye` [~user@213.33.70.157] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:36:48 -!- ebobby [~fms@189.170.16.14] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 08:37:08 -!- turbolen1 [~bastian@turbolent.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 08:37:16 -!- spacefrogg^ is now known as spacefrogg 08:37:55 Quadrescence: i hope you used tdd for this!! ;-) 08:39:23 Buglouse [~Buglouse@unaffiliated/Buglouse] has joined #lisp 08:39:58 arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-paithyoyckbgbery] has joined #lisp 08:40:00 easye` [~user@213.33.70.157] has joined #lisp 08:40:39 i have come up with a much faster version 08:41:12 turbolent [~bastian@turbolent.com] has joined #lisp 08:41:45 setmeaway [~setmeaway@118.45.149.239] has joined #lisp 08:43:53 http://paste.lisp.org/display/134892 08:44:08 don't listen to the haters who say to use :FROM-END 08:46:50 Quadrescence: Use C or C++ because they are better. 08:47:06 Quadrescence: haha, cute 08:47:11 :) 08:47:25 good god, so cute .. so awefully cute 08:47:26 -!- nilsi [~nilsi@student-245-229.eduroam.uu.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:48:56 :D 08:50:03 -!- robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 08:50:38 doomlord [~doomlod@host86-162-165-225.range86-162.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 09:02:10 bniels [~niels@p4FD6F48D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:02:23 bioevolgenec [~bioevolge@unaffiliated/bioevolgenec] has joined #lisp 09:02:42 Harag [~Thunderbi@41.13.16.231] has joined #lisp 09:02:49 tcr1 [~tcr@84-72-21-32.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 09:03:13 spearalot [~spearalot@host-95-199-211-226.mobileonline.telia.com] has joined #lisp 09:03:25 -!- cfy [~ilisp@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:04:36 -!- asedeno_work [asedeno@nat/google/x-glzpodovqixwpldu] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:05:04 asedeno_work [asedeno@nat/google/x-pcbdylujmfohkinm] has joined #lisp 09:10:15 i've been seeing people use weirdo package names .... com.something.or.other.foo.package .. why? why oh why? 09:10:54 people feel that it is better to be explicit and precise, and let the user instead choose the shorter, convenient names 09:11:13 -!- asedeno_work [asedeno@nat/google/x-pcbdylujmfohkinm] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:11:15 what is explicit and precies about a bunch of gibberish ... :/ 09:11:28 otherwise you end up with 10 people with their UTIL package 09:11:52 -!- foom [jknight@nat/google/x-khyosxarsisjcoxc] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:11:57 -!- Keshi [~Keshi@unaffiliated/keshi] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 09:12:16 don't call it util then ... :-) 09:12:24 quite a bad name for a package anyway 09:12:51 what do you call it? 09:13:20 ZORKMOID-UTILITIES ? 09:13:31 a package with random cruft code? i would have a package for that 09:13:50 i was talking about bigger stuff ... 09:14:02 okay, like what? 09:14:57 like, uhm, com.quadrescence.clim.backend.gtk or something 09:14:58 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:15:13 kofno [~kofno@cpe-24-165-210-251.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 09:15:21 hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has joined #lisp 09:15:21 -!- hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has quit [Changing host] 09:15:21 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 09:15:35 zorkmoid, okay, there are two reasons 09:15:48 or com.quadrescence.mysql.optimize.sql.entries.and.such 09:16:00 some authors want to identify the source of their code. COM.FOO refers to the domain www.foo.com 09:16:16 you can do that in comments, or whatever. 09:16:40 having to call com.quadrescence.mysql.optimize.sql.entries.and.such::with-something-special is utterly silly 09:16:44 -!- cataska [~user@210.64.6.233] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:16:45 Keshi [~Keshi@unaffiliated/keshi] has joined #lisp 09:16:51 yes indeed it is 09:16:58 so you give it a nickname 09:17:07 nielsb [~niels@p4FD6BE71.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:17:12 but i dun wanna... kinda the point of my rant :-) 09:17:14 -!- jpee87 [~worst@174.141.213.6] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:17:25 cataska [~user@210.64.6.233] has joined #lisp 09:17:35 zorkmoid, so where's the line between reasonable and unreasonable? 09:17:54 do you think large programming projects should just be one giant package? 09:18:03 with a petite name? 09:18:09 rmathews [~roshan@122.165.89.11] has joined #lisp 09:18:27 Quadrescence: no, but the com.foo.thingie.with.multiple.dots.is.so.silly .. 09:18:53 why not call it mysql-optimize-sql-entries-and-such or something, like any other normal symbol 09:19:07 why dots instead of dashes? 09:19:14 ? 09:19:19 -!- bniels [~niels@p4FD6F48D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:19:29 are you asking why use dots instead of hyphens? 09:19:34 i'm mostly ranting... 09:19:40 i know :) 09:19:47 that is one, two is the silly reversed domain name gibberish.. 09:19:53 which is totally and utterly pointless 09:20:07 it organizes code 09:20:11 not really 09:20:14 -!- Bike [~Glossina@63-229-134-7.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: bored] 09:20:18 or so i think 09:20:20 if you're using hierarchical packages, then all of your code is organized under com.domain 09:20:23 nan_ [~user@178.233.216.230] has joined #lisp 09:20:24 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:20:29 -!- kofno [~kofno@cpe-24-165-210-251.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 09:20:33 com.quadrescence is all code written by me 09:20:49 add a slot in defpackage .. 09:21:03 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 09:21:16 zorkmoid, but i'm guaranteed to have com.quadrescence.* 09:21:17 :organization 09:21:24 no one else is "allowed" to use that 09:21:32 whereas everyone is allowed to use sql.* 09:21:51 meh, stilly don't get it. 09:22:14 zorkmoid, you write your SQL package and I write my SQL package 09:22:18 call me dense.. 09:22:22 chances are we will both name it SQL 09:22:30 sure 09:22:42 and? 09:23:05 do you think this could be a problem? 09:23:11 -!- BountyX [~andrew@76.14.65.229] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:23:14 nope 09:23:28 I do (ql:quickload :sql) 09:23:37 BountyX [~andrew@76.14.65.229] has joined #lisp 09:23:43 ah, i don't use ql 09:23:44 whose should get loaded? 09:24:21 but ql:quickload could ask the user which package to load 09:24:26 simultaneously working both cl and c side of a project painful, hours wasted for a simple unreferenced function error... 09:24:34 Load SQL from URL1? Load SQL from URL2? 09:24:44 or something 09:24:59 -!- nielsb [~niels@p4FD6BE71.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8] 09:25:12 blubberdiblub [~foobar@blubberdiblub.org] has joined #lisp 09:25:16 ISF [~ivan@189.61.223.79] has joined #lisp 09:25:16 zorkmoid, Some people include quickload forms in their scripts. Are you sure you want it to ask for a human response every time? 09:25:26 foom [jknight@nat/google/x-lslhaxahhnquehki] has joined #lisp 09:25:33 asedeno_work [asedeno@nat/google/x-knqnifusqzdquxdf] has joined #lisp 09:25:43 Quadrescence: :from ... or have a :organization field that snatches the right version 09:25:55 i never used ql, looks unuseful for me. 09:26:02 zorkmoid: what if you want to load both packages? 09:26:16 but what if i create a ql package, then i'll have conflicts anyway ... 09:26:34 zorkmoid, so, you do agree that organization should be included somewhere 09:27:05 Quadrescence: maybe, not convinced, i never had these problems, and been writing lisp for 30 years 09:27:38 i think lispers have largely been afraid to work with other people's code in the last 25+k years too 09:27:42 zorkmoid: i don't want to imagine doing it without ql, a package has tons of dependencies, how do you deal with it otherwise? Well, if you got all dependencies.. 09:27:47 (k>=0) 09:28:06 Quadrescence: probobly :-) 09:28:40 nan_: i have my system setup so that defpackage is what does the heavy work. 09:28:55 nan_: it's not so bad. It just takes time. 09:29:23 you look into the asds and see what's missing 09:29:33 zorkmoid, now, with all that said, do I follow the COM.FOO.BAR.WOW convention? no 09:29:34 (i don't use asdf :-) 09:29:56 -!- scoofy [~scoofy@catv-89-135-71-167.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 09:30:00 zorkmoid: so you don't use third party stuff? 09:30:06 sure i do 09:30:15 and that uses asdf 09:30:33 prxq: i got load scripts that load each system 09:30:45 load-clim.lisp load-something.lisp etc 09:30:46 snits [~snits@174-17-112-107.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 09:31:05 prxq: probably not so bad yet automating that kind of work is awesome 09:31:13 nan_: of course 09:31:23 prxq: old crud written ages andages ago 09:31:24 ql is fantastuc 09:31:33 zorkmoid: people stopped writing those scripts in 2010 (or so) 09:31:34 fantastic, even 09:31:44 zorkmoid: which coincides with the creation of quicklisp 09:31:52 zorkmoid: and that's all you use? 09:31:56 prxq: yes 09:32:06 pre asdf stuff. Interesting 09:32:28 prxq: not so much pre asdf, i just write load scripts for stuff i install 09:32:39 jdz: few wrote that kind of scritpts as 2003 09:32:43 prxq: save my world, and am happy. 09:33:00 zorkmoid: you rewrite the asd into some script? 09:33:18 prxq: something like that, usually manually .. never bothered really/ 09:33:19 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-66-149.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 09:34:14 wrote one for drakma a few weeks ago, awesome thing that.. 09:34:18 -!- cataska [~user@210.64.6.233] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:35:10 zorkmoid, any reason for not using tools designed to avoid having to write these loading scripts? 09:35:20 Quadrescence: old habbits 09:35:21 coming from c++, after make, cmake and such asdf/ql combo is greeat, achiving this kind of thing with a big language and many compilers is rare, don't know if even exists on other languages 09:35:26 reallllly old habbits :-) 09:35:43 really olllllllllllld habbits 09:35:47 :-) 09:35:52 zorkmoid: how long have you been programming CL 09:35:57 prxq: 30+ 09:36:03 cataska [~user@210.64.6.233] has joined #lisp 09:36:03 heh, ok. 09:36:20 zorkmoid: you write in all caps? ;-) 09:36:24 code I mean 09:36:34 prxq: that was earlier than 30y ago 09:36:35 zorkmoid, 30+ consistently, or "i did lisp in college 30 years ago and now I'm doing it again"? 09:36:45 Quadrescence: more or less consistently 09:36:49 great 09:37:02 prxq: i hated caps back then, and i still hate caps today. 09:37:16 zorkmoid: you're not per chance the guy who started open sourcing his 30+ years worth of CL code on GH? :D 09:37:29 p_l: no 09:37:35 there is someone who did that? cool 09:37:38 link? 09:37:45 let me find 09:38:01 bitonic`` [~user@93-63-184-150.ip28.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 09:38:05 http://xach.livejournal.com/315943.html? 09:38:26 https://github.com/dbmcclain <--- the upload is still WiP, afaik 09:38:59 cool! 09:39:52 nan_: yep 09:40:08 and sorry, ~20y, not 30 :) 09:40:29 still, who cares! :- 09:40:31 ) 09:40:44 Quadrescence seems to. :) 09:41:08 right, it's code written by somebody else, right? 09:41:54 cute macros .. 09:43:42 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 09:44:09 -!- cataska [~user@210.64.6.233] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:44:46 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 09:46:49 add^_ [~add^_@m83-190-167-197.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 09:47:46 jdz: which code 09:47:47 ? 09:48:57 p_l: nvm 09:49:45 cataska [~user@210.64.6.233] has joined #lisp 09:50:48 -!- seangrove [~user@c-71-202-126-17.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:51:50 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@217.17.38.43] has quit [Quit: leaving] 09:51:57 -!- cataska [~user@210.64.6.233] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:54:21 seangrove [~user@c-71-202-126-17.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:54:24 so the vector based lparallel queue is still managing to *crash* SBCL 1.1.13 09:56:09 EvW [~Thunderbi@a82-92-190-215.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 09:56:48 lol. The feeling when you grep Google Research for stuff reuse at work and suddenly, ASDF 09:57:20 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:59:57 -!- asvil [~user@91.151.182.61] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:00:04 will a buzy loop leave the opportunity to the GC to collect? 10:00:18 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:00:25 -!- bitonic`` [~user@93-63-184-150.ip28.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:00:35 cataska [~user@210.64.6.233] has joined #lisp 10:01:00 bitonic`` [~user@93-63-184-150.ip28.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 10:01:34 -!- Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 10:03:15 -!- ISF [~ivan@189.61.223.79] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.0] 10:03:38 ISF [~ivan@189.61.223.79] has joined #lisp 10:03:45 -!- cnl [~pony@bitdiddle.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 10:03:56 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-158-95.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 10:04:12 stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-017-173.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 10:04:34 dim: depends on GC. Most GCs are triggered by allocation 10:04:49 -!- cataska [~user@210.64.6.233] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:05:10 Fare [fare@nat/google/x-beqdzqfbiilycqfg] has joined #lisp 10:05:19 (there are some funky refcount/GC hybrid VMs that schedule GC based on interactive event rate) 10:05:30 morphling [~stefan@gssn-4d003da9.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 10:06:59 #+sbcl(sb-ext:gc :full t) maybe then 10:07:28 cataska [~user@210.64.6.233] has joined #lisp 10:07:32 -!- bitonic`` [~user@93-63-184-150.ip28.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:07:55 or just increase the frequency of GC? 10:08:04 what kind of busy loop, btw? 10:08:27 well I would do that before entering the buzy looping, say 10:08:41 dim: yeah, but what kind of busy loop, what use etc. 10:08:44 (loop repeat 5000) in that case 10:08:55 ... what for? 10:09:19 use case is data migration streaming, I use 2 threads (producer reads data, consumer writes data) with lparallel and a queue 10:09:42 yes, but why you need a busy loop? Is it just a placeholder till later, or ? 10:09:48 the consumer is slower than the producer and if the lparallel.queue fills, SBCL crashed in out of memory 10:10:52 so I want to leave headroom to the consumer at points from the consumer, and I can have use (lparallel.queue:queue-count dataq) to know when to pause the producing of events in the queue 10:11:08 note: the fixed sized vector based queue implementation in SBCL is not effective here 10:11:33 note: I could use another concurrency/threading system for CL too 10:11:39 if I knew which :) 10:12:08 stlifey [~stlifey@116.19.143.214] has joined #lisp 10:12:14 I think I'd use something other than delay loop 10:12:45 but I'd have to look deeper into it than I have time now 10:12:53 fair enough 10:13:09 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-66-149.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:15:48 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-66-149.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 10:16:54 some way of adaptive sleeping? 10:17:27 maybe use dynamically-sized buffers inside the queue which store the data, not just load each item into queue? 10:17:32 that'd be next step yes (just change the value in the repeat, right?) 10:17:46 pkhuong has been proposing a buzy loop rather than a wait, btw 10:18:32 dim: depends how long would be the waits, I guess 10:18:50 5000 cycles, less than the timer resolution, here 10:19:01 then that's a classic spinlock :) 10:19:21 but I don't need anyone else to wake me up, just a timeout 10:20:08 or I start a monitoring thread that release the spinlocks when the queue size reduces, but that monitoring thread will have to buzy loop etc, so I'm not sure I understand 10:20:15 I'm missing something here it seems 10:20:23 stobix [~Volatile@c83-248-225-159.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 10:20:28 as I said, I'd have to look into it closer than I can now :) 10:21:11 ok the buzy looping seems to be very effective 10:21:17 -!- blubberdiblub [~foobar@blubberdiblub.org] has left #lisp 10:21:36 well, it's a spinlock :) 10:22:02 Yo. Is there any lisp other than newLISP where you can modify the list you're currently executing while executing it? 10:22:36 ... you don't execute a list? 10:22:49 sorry, my terminology is bad. -_- 10:22:58 http://kazimirmajorinc.blogspot.se/2009/04/crawler-tractor.html <-- like this 10:23:02 stobix: no, it assumes an evaluator 10:23:35 hmmm 10:23:52 "This is so good that maybe I shouldn't write about it" how true 10:23:58 that code basically uses pecularities of newLisp implementation details 10:23:58 http://paste.lisp.org/display/134892 <- What's the reason it is better to not use :from-end ? 10:24:16 ah, too bad. It would have been nice to turn that "not a loop, not a recursive call" overhead into a macro construct, if only newLISP had macros... 10:24:23 -!- cataska [~user@210.64.6.233] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 10:24:34 stobix: it's actually a recursive call in a way 10:24:59 Well, sort of. Without a call stack or a jmp instruction 10:25:17 oh, it has plenty of jmp instructions 10:25:21 p_l: you could also call it a lazily unwinded loop 10:25:24 it's just that they are obscured 10:25:54 whitedawg [~whitedawg@122.179.110.178] has joined #lisp 10:25:55 p_l: heh, well, yes... 10:26:19 but frankly speaking... too crazy for too little gain 10:26:22 But not in the idea world of the code, so to say 10:26:45 p_l: yes, it's nothing more than a game - but one that amuses me 10:27:05 -!- stardiviner [~stardivin@122.236.245.102] has quit [Quit: my website: http://stardiviner.dyndns-blog.com/] 10:27:13 stobix: for something more practical that seems weird in beginning, look up how Chicken Scheme works :) 10:27:29 jesusito [~user@212.24.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 10:27:38 it's using infinite recursion and growing the stack purposefully 10:27:56 -!- whitedawg [~whitedawg@122.179.110.178] has quit [Client Quit] 10:28:19 whitedawg [~whitedawg@122.179.110.178] has joined #lisp 10:29:35 p_l: I just might. :) 10:29:35 stardiviner [~stardivin@122.236.245.102] has joined #lisp 10:29:43 -!- My_Hearing is now known as Mon_Ouie 10:29:58 ianmcorvidae|alt [~ianmcorvi@ip72-200-124-178.tc.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 10:29:58 -!- ianmcorvidae|alt [~ianmcorvi@ip72-200-124-178.tc.ph.cox.net] has quit [Changing host] 10:29:58 ianmcorvidae|alt [~ianmcorvi@musicbrainz/user/ianmcorvidae] has joined #lisp 10:30:41 -!- rmathews [~roshan@122.165.89.11] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 10:30:51 rmathews [~roshan@122.165.89.11] has joined #lisp 10:31:13 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@84-72-21-32.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 10:31:14 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@musicbrainz/user/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 10:31:38 In the meantime, here is a "crawling" factorial function that uses itself as a list to store values: http://pastebin.com/HdQ8hiyx 10:32:23 cnl [~pony@bitdiddle.net] has joined #lisp 10:36:46 -!- rmathews [~roshan@122.165.89.11] has quit [Quit: ...] 10:37:54 I'm struggling to think of the right CL data structure to use in this situation: I need some kind of two-dimensional array/list, with fast random access, but also the ability (even if it is quite slow) to be extended along both dimensions. Should I just use a two-dimensional array and create a whole new array when I need to extend it? 10:38:20 a hash of lists? 10:38:22 The array itself would be relatively small; maybe 1000x1000 at the absolute maximum 10:38:48 a hash of vectors? a hash of hash? 10:39:02 you did mention fast random access, so hash and vectors come to mind 10:39:15 yeah 10:40:27 -!- stardiviner [~stardivin@122.236.245.102] has quit [Quit: my website: http://stardiviner.dyndns-blog.com/] 10:40:39 I guess it might have to be some composition of structures like that rather than just being a single 2D array 10:40:50 stardiviner [~stardivin@122.236.245.102] has joined #lisp 10:42:21 cataska [~user@210.64.6.233] has joined #lisp 10:42:32 -!- Harag [~Thunderbi@41.13.16.231] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:43:22 -!- elixey [~eilyx@gateway/tor-sasl/eilyx] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:43:32 Have you considered composing both dimensions into a single integer value? 10:43:51 isn't that what 2D arrays do internally? 10:44:24 and yes, I could, but then extending in one direction would require shifting every subsequent item along 10:46:07 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-26-217.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 10:47:19 -!- nuba [~nuba@pauleira.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 10:47:34 nuba [~nuba@pauleira.com] has joined #lisp 10:47:56 would I get decent access times if I just used a hash with lists of subscripts as keys? 10:48:03 ehu [~ehu@31.136.98.116] has joined #lisp 10:49:54 -!- drewc [~drewc@50.7.166.100] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:50:02 -!- cataska [~user@210.64.6.233] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 10:50:08 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-26-217.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Client Quit] 10:50:15 drewc [~drewc@50.7.166.100] has joined #lisp 10:51:06 dous [~dous@bb116-15-77-132.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 10:51:06 -!- dous [~dous@bb116-15-77-132.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Changing host] 10:51:06 dous [~dous@unaffiliated/dous] has joined #lisp 10:54:09 elixey [~eilyx@gateway/tor-sasl/eilyx] has joined #lisp 10:55:36 Strigoides: you say there is 1000x1000 as absolute maximum? why bother, just create a 1000x1000 array. 10:56:35 rmathews [~roshan@122.165.89.11] has joined #lisp 10:56:49 well, when I say "absolute maximum", I mean that that's probably going to be as large as it will get, not a hard limit 10:57:23 Strigoides: do you have real time requirements? 10:57:36 bitonic`` [~user@93-63-184-150.ip28.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 10:58:01 it would probably help if I told you what it's for: I'm writing a funge-98 interpreter 10:58:06 the spec is here: http://quadium.net/funge/spec98.html 10:59:19 the pertinent part being: http://quadium.net/funge/spec98.html#Space 11:00:36 -!- bitonic`` [~user@93-63-184-150.ip28.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:05:30 zorkmoid: The purpose of quicklisp is to NOT ask the user what package to load, but to do it automatically! but ql:quickload could ask the user which package to load 11:06:25 cataska [~user@210.64.6.233] has joined #lisp 11:08:29 hi 11:08:33 ogamita: hi 11:09:47 -!- add^_ [~add^_@m83-190-167-197.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: The Garbage Collector got me...] 11:10:53 zorkmoid: you can still use load.lisp files, just now they start with (ql:quickload :com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum) forms and end with (com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.package:add-nickname :com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.utility :util) forms. 11:11:06 just did some benchmarking; the hash was faster than the 2d array for random access 11:11:12 so I'll probably just go with that 11:11:24 Surprizing. What kind of keys? 11:11:39 '(x-coordinate y-coordinate) 11:12:07 I can't believe your benchmark. You must have something wrong in it. 11:12:22 Or it's a sparse matrix? 11:12:23 -!- whitedawg [~whitedawg@122.179.110.178] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:12:34 Or, perhaps (+ (* x w) y) 11:12:49 0.129 seconds for 1000000 random array accesses versus 0.091 seconds for the hash 11:12:50 hashing a list is probably more costly. 11:13:10 Strigoides: care to lisppaste the benchmark code? 11:13:15 sure 11:13:20 Hashing integers, on the other hand ... 11:13:40 yeah, hashing (expt x y) would probably be faster, right? 11:13:54 -!- am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:14:06 wouldn't hashing '(x-coordinate y-coordinate) hash the reference to a CONS cell? 11:14:08 You have no realistic notion of the maximum dimensions? 11:14:36 theoretically the maximum is very high, realistically it is pretty low 11:14:39 In case of a very sparse matrix, the hashtable could have the advantage of cache efficiency. But that's the only way it could be faster. 11:14:53 that is, it has to be *able* to be very large, but most of the time it isn't 11:14:55 Is very high more than 4 billion by 4 billion? 11:15:02 no 11:15:09 So, what does very high mean? 11:15:21 oh wait, slightly larger 11:15:44 the spec says -2,147,483,648 to +2,147,483,647 11:16:02 That's CL -- not your sparse array in application. 11:16:21 Or perhaps I have missed the point of this somewhere. 11:16:55 I mean the Funge-98 spec; I'm writing an interpreter for it 11:18:31 hmm, I did get an odd warning during the array benchmark 11:20:09 Interleaving bits might be another option. 11:20:35 Then you could use a vector and expand it as your space grows. 11:20:46 nice 11:21:13 http://paste.lisp.org/display/134893 11:21:31 there may be some flaw in the benchmark resulting in the hash getting a lower time 11:22:02 or maybe the GETHASH is optimized out 11:22:03 since it isn't used 11:22:20 but in that case I would expect the same to happen with the AREF 11:22:59 Ymir [~ymirr@188.115.27.139] has joined #lisp 11:24:15 back! 11:25:08 cool! paste.lisp.org lets you click on symbols 11:25:51 ah, a ) got missed off in a few of those pasted lines 11:26:09 apart from that I think it's okay 11:26:42 hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@46.233.229.103] has joined #lisp 11:27:38 -!- browndawg [~browndawg@117.201.84.97] has left #lisp 11:29:20 Strigoides: http://paste.lisp.org/display/134893#1 11:29:34 -!- cataska [~user@210.64.6.233] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:29:45 Array is ten times faster on my implementation/computer. 11:30:15 hmm, very odd 11:30:40 mutley89 [~mutley89@cpc1-swin14-2-0-cust274.3-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 11:30:42 I tried using (+ (x w) y) for the hash key and it cut it down to 0.050 seconds as well 11:31:02 maybe it's some quirk of sbcl? 11:31:09 do you have sbcl installed to test? 11:32:01 Not here. 11:33:00 if you don't use a side-effect-free result, sbcl will happily remove the call 11:33:47 right, I thought it might be something like that 11:33:57 if you want to check what you are actually benchmarking, try making your benchmark forms into functions and disassembling them 11:35:19 browndawg [~browndawg@117.201.84.97] has joined #lisp 11:35:58 -!- browndawg [~browndawg@117.201.84.97] has left #lisp 11:36:55 looking at the two functions, the gethash ends up being completely optimized out, whereas the memory reference in the array version remains 11:37:14 right, that makes sense 11:37:19 cataska [~user@210.64.6.233] has joined #lisp 11:37:37 foreignFunction [~niksaak@94.27.88.117] has joined #lisp 11:38:23 (I'm not entirely sure why the memory reference remains; probably because aref ends up being used to implement things like ELT which have strict error-reporting requirements.) 11:39:50 -!- vi1 [~vi1@93.92.216.186] has quit [] 11:41:40 toronto lisp users group has an interesting discussion board thingie ... coolies. 11:41:53 -!- cataska [~user@210.64.6.233] has 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[Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:18:13 -!- fsvehla [~fsvehla@h081217181184.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Quit: fsvehla] 13:19:26 -!- yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.169] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:21:52 -!- spearalot [~spearalot@host-95-199-211-226.mobileonline.telia.com] has quit [Quit: Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/] 13:22:50 stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-238-072.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 13:28:31 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 13:29:56 interesting article about roslyn castle and music 13:29:57 bitonic`` [~user@93-63-184-150.ip28.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 13:30:07 -!- Jambato [~Jambato@2a01:e35:2f15:c40:211:d8ff:fe7d:2c4a] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:30:50 yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.169] has joined #lisp 13:36:42 -!- ISF [~ivan@189.61.223.79] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:36:59 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.66] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 13:37:00 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:37:26 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:38:38 -!- snowylike [~sn@91-67-171-156-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de] 13:39:52 leoncamel [~leoncamel@1.202.7.240] has joined #lisp 13:40:19 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 13:40:51 zorkmoid: with an url, you'd save time to 300 people, and a gogol of electricity for Google servers. 13:41:08 oh, sorry was talking to myself... 13:41:22 zorkmoid: try: /msg zorkmoid speaking to myself. 13:41:39 smart aren't we! :-) 13:41:54 ogamita: http://www.slate.com/articles/life/the_rosslyn_code/2011/05/the_rosslyn_code_5.single.html 13:43:59 -!- impomatic [~digital_w@87.114.138.192] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:44:03 -!- kofno_ [~kofno@cpe-24-165-210-251.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:48:54 -!- bitonic`` is now known as bitonic 13:50:48 thanks. 13:54:13 zorkmoid: I doubt it's music. But indeed, interesting. 13:54:39 -!- stardiviner [~stardivin@122.236.245.102] has quit [Quit: my website: http://stardiviner.dyndns-blog.com/] 13:55:11 did anyone of you deal with mp3-file-format (in lisp)? 13:55:21 -!- bitonic [~user@93-63-184-150.ip28.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:55:55 -!- whitedawg [~whitedawg@122.179.90.211] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:56:07 ogamita: interesting would be to see what it sounds like. 13:56:21 trebor_dki: i may be wrong, but is reading mp3 files not something that is covered as an example in pcl? 13:56:21 trebor_dki: you mean decoding mp3 files in lisp? all the time. 13:56:38 H4ns: ID3 tags i thinkonly, not decoding audio frames. 13:57:39 bitonic [~user@93-63-184-150.ip28.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 13:57:49 -!- bitonic [~user@93-63-184-150.ip28.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:58:06 -!- Hybrid_ [d36dc1e2@gateway/web/freenode/ip.211.109.193.226] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 13:58:18 przl [~przlrkt@p54BD30A3.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:58:19 bitonic [~user@93-63-184-150.ip28.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 13:59:20 zorkmoid: simple cutting would be fine. my question is about the crc - which frame(s) does it refer to? 14:00:51 zorkmoid: i would like to cut some recorded mp3-streams into smaller pieces, so i thought of cutting before start of a new frame (every e.g. 100MB). 14:01:15 kofno [~kofno@cpe-24-165-210-251.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:01:28 (but i do not want to produce crc errors) 14:02:18 -!- bitonic [~user@93-63-184-150.ip28.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:02:43 there is mp3split 14:02:50 bitonic [~user@93-63-184-150.ip28.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 14:02:57 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:03:54 whitedawg [~whitedawg@122.179.90.211] has joined #lisp 14:04:55 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:05:32 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p54BD30A3.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:07:36 zorkmoid: yes, is just for fun.... 14:09:08 -!- zorkmoid [c2ed8e15@gateway/web/freenode/ip.194.237.142.21] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 14:10:32 whitedawg1 [~whitedawg@122.179.105.3] has joined #lisp 14:10:44 -!- whitedawg [~whitedawg@122.179.90.211] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:10:48 *stassats* pushed a new set of changes to commonqt: bug fixes, less consing in some cases and more complete QVariant marshalling 14:11:04 Posterdati will be happy. 14:11:07 i wonder when will be the time to make a release, the first one 14:11:20 LiamH [~none@70.42.157.22] has joined #lisp 14:11:24 yes 14:11:25 You know what is said: release early. 14:11:41 I will be happy, to use a file dialog too 14:11:42 stassats: is that already for QT5? 14:11:57 flip214: there's no smoke for qt5, 14:11:58 flip214: hi! how are you old sys64738? 14:12:11 -!- stobix [~Volatile@c83-248-225-159.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:12:15 -!- whitedawg1 [~whitedawg@122.179.105.3] has quit [Client Quit] 14:12:15 otherwise, it is ready 14:12:26 stassats: I know nothing of QT - I'm just a KDE user. 14:12:41 -!- kofno [~kofno@cpe-24-165-210-251.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:12:45 flip214: smoke is a KDE project 14:12:47 Posterdati: RTI 14:12:57 KDE is still using qt4 14:13:03 dnolen` [~user@cpe-74-64-32-223.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:13:18 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has joined #lisp 14:13:40 kofno [~kofno@cpe-24-165-210-251.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:14:15 i guess i could try to compile smoke for qt5 myself, but qt4 works alright for me at the moment, so i'll delegate it to the smoke maintainers 14:15:44 -!- dnolen [~user@cpe-74-64-32-223.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 14:15:48 smoke is to get language bindings, right? why not use swig? 14:15:51 -!- Buglouse [~Buglouse@unaffiliated/Buglouse] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:18:18 why use swig? 14:18:21 -!- LiamH [~none@70.42.157.22] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:18:55 cataska [~user@210.64.6.233] has joined #lisp 14:19:44 -!- Ymir [~ymirr@188.115.27.139] has quit [Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)] 14:20:48 flip214: swig can't deal with Qt's object model 14:20:52 not that well 14:21:58 -!- msxx [~msxx@31.45.173.64] has quit [Quit: msxx] 14:23:30 -!- _k [~k@194.25.247.250] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:26:35 -!- hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@46.233.229.103] has quit [Quit: hitecnologys] 14:27:23 -!- bitonic [~user@93-63-184-150.ip28.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:27:32 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:27:48 bitonic [~user@93-63-184-150.ip28.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 14:27:54 hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has joined #lisp 14:27:54 -!- hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has quit [Changing host] 14:27:54 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 14:27:57 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-66-149.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:28:57 ah, thanks. 14:30:01 -!- arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-paithyoyckbgbery] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:30:41 -!- stlifey [~stlifey@116.19.143.214] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.0] 14:30:56 stlifey [~stlifey@116.19.143.214] has joined #lisp 14:31:02 Thra11 [~thrall@87.112.186.70] has joined #lisp 14:33:26 hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@46.233.229.103] has joined #lisp 14:34:50 segv- [~mb@dslb-094-223-004-056.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 14:38:07 LiamH [~none@70.42.157.22] has joined #lisp 14:38:07 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:38:26 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:38:38 ApeShot [~user@adsl-184-39-199-28.clt.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 14:38:48 Anyone using Franz's jlinker library here? 14:39:02 We'd like to sense for whether this is reasonably reliable software or it is infrequently used. 14:39:25 chitofan [dcff02a3@gateway/web/freenode/ip.220.255.2.163] has joined #lisp 14:39:30 ApeShot: depends on your definition of "infrequently" 14:39:55 ApeShot: i think you could say "infrequently used" about most lisp software. 14:40:17 H4ns: well, relative to other lisp libraries, I would say 14:40:51 then you're asking the wrong forum, allegro is not popular in #lisp 14:41:01 ApeShot: i seem to remember that last time i looked, jlinker had not been updated for newer java versions in a while. i'd talk to their support about it. 14:41:18 -!- bitonic [~user@93-63-184-150.ip28.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:41:20 Freenode is for people who prefer the open source version of things :) 14:41:57 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 14:42:57 H4ns: thanks, I guess we will do that. I have tested the basic functionality with the standard Java on Ubuntu 12.10 and everything seems in order 14:43:08 The documentation leaves something to be desired, however. 14:45:21 Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 14:45:31 bitonic [~user@93-63-184-150.ip28.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 14:47:38 sambio [~sambio@190.57.227.109] has joined #lisp 14:48:40 ahungry [~null@66.184.106.97] has joined #lisp 14:51:06 Buglouse [~Buglouse@unaffiliated/Buglouse] has joined #lisp 14:54:21 nilsi_ [~nilsi@student-245-229.eduroam.uu.se] has joined #lisp 14:55:12 adelgado [~TomSawyer@65.23.61.98.nw.nuvox.net] has joined #lisp 14:55:41 -!- nilsi [~nilsi@student-245-229.eduroam.uu.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:57:21 natechan [~natechan@50-192-61-46-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 14:57:30 -!- bioevolgenec [~bioevolge@unaffiliated/bioevolgenec] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:58:18 -!- bitonic [~user@93-63-184-150.ip28.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:59:58 bioevolgenec [~bioevolge@unaffiliated/bioevolgenec] has joined #lisp 15:02:13 -!- axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-88-224.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:03:23 -!- Joreji [~thomas@84-182.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:05:06 Joreji [~thomas@84-182.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 15:06:00 -!- lusory [~lusory@bb42-60-31-187.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:07:26 stopbit [~stopbit@static-108-48-124-82.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:07:27 brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-142-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:07:40 bobbysmith007 [~russ@firewall-dcd1.acceleration.net] has joined #lisp 15:09:48 -!- duko_ [~duko@static-72-87-239-154.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:10:36 this isnt a lisp question, but im curious if any of you guys studied uml and found it useful 15:10:42 theres nobody in the uml channel.. lol 15:10:54 drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has joined #lisp 15:11:23 ThomasH [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/thomash] has joined #lisp 15:11:37 Greetings lispers 15:12:57 Juanito-Jons [~jreynoso@187.240.179.197] has joined #lisp 15:13:14 Greetings 15:13:21 -!- kofno [~kofno@cpe-24-165-210-251.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:13:48 Dangling parentheses, it always surprises me to find them in code from people that have been using lisp for decades. 15:14:33 ThomasH: me too! 15:14:37 it tears my eyes out 15:14:58 though i assume there's probably a reason for it 15:15:01 ikki [~ikki@187.240.179.197] has joined #lisp 15:15:48 francisl [~flavoie@199.84.164.114] has joined #lisp 15:16:00 bitonic [~user@93-63-184-150.ip28.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 15:16:00 benny [~user@i577A1B12.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 15:16:06 madnificent: My presumption is that it is an artifact of initially learning to code with an editor that doesn't properly support parentheses. 15:17:03 chitofan: let's go to the #uml channel and discuss that. 15:17:28 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@92.46.1.14] has joined #lisp 15:17:28 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@92.46.1.14] has quit [Changing host] 15:17:28 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 15:17:42 jsfb [~jon@unaffiliated/jsfb] has joined #lisp 15:17:43 ThomasH: sometimes editors get random user command and do delete or insert random characters. 15:17:49 -!- dnolen` [~user@cpe-74-64-32-223.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:18:19 sometimes people just have bad habits and noone ever told them what is better 15:19:05 or they are anarchists and rebel against the style police 15:19:12 ogamita: H4ns explanation is better. Random characters are easily distinguishable from practice. 15:20:21 zacts [~lcc@unaffiliated/zacts] has joined #lisp 15:20:50 stassats: The style police are there for a reason, in the words of Fernando, "It is better to look good than to feel good." 15:22:04 -!- nilsi_ [~nilsi@student-245-229.eduroam.uu.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:22:46 -!- ikki [~ikki@187.240.179.197] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 15:23:56 victor_lowther [~victorlow@143.166.116.80] has joined #lisp 15:24:44 snowylike [~sn@91-67-171-156-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 15:25:08 kofno [~kofno@cpe-24-165-210-251.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:25:24 normanrichards [~normanric@rrcs-108-178-120-144.sw.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:25:59 -!- jaimef [jaimef@dns.mauthesis.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:26:57 -!- nightfly [~sage@sagenite.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:27:25 -!- leoncamel [~leoncamel@1.202.7.240] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 15:29:09 -!- elixey [~eilyx@gateway/tor-sasl/eilyx] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:29:11 -!- teiresias [~teiresias@archlinux/trusteduser/teiresias] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:29:57 teiresias [~teiresias@archlinux/trusteduser/teiresias] has joined #lisp 15:31:26 -!- kofno [~kofno@cpe-24-165-210-251.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:32:08 -!- LiamH [~none@70.42.157.22] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:32:40 jaimef [jaimef@dns.mauthesis.com] has joined #lisp 15:34:44 Well, using paredit, you cannot miss a parentheses (or else paredit desactivate itself and you notice immediately). 15:34:58 sure you can. 15:35:07 not without noticing. 15:35:26 Just yank a paren 15:35:40 And then paredit will deactivate itself. 15:35:44 it won't 15:35:56 it will get angry at you 15:36:03 and refuse to delete it 15:36:05 C-q ( 15:36:20 madnificent: neat. I hadn't thought of that one 15:36:20 Well, perhaps not immediately. But soon enough I'll be angry at emacs for not doing what it should and notice that paredit is out, and do M-x check-parens to correct the situation. 15:36:29 if you insert one at the end, slime's C-c C-c will work, and you won't find out until the next whole recompile 15:36:31 Jambato [~Jambato@2a01:e35:2f15:c40:211:d8ff:fe7d:2c4a] has joined #lisp 15:36:33 slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-76-254-45-27.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:36:34 not likely to do C-q by accident, though 15:37:45 ikki [~ikki@187.208.192.217] has joined #lisp 15:39:54 interesting problem: commonqt is using #_ to transform into calls to qt, so (#_x 1 z) is transformed into (OPTIMIZED-CALL T Y "x" Z), the way it does that: defines a global macro at read-time, which name is returned by the reader macro, then this macros expands into the final (OPTIMIZED-CALL T Y "x" Z) 15:40:57 stassats: yes, it's not too clean to define functions or macros in a reader macro 15:41:08 i don't like that approach, i figured another way: read everything upto #\), and then return a (lambda () (OPTIMIZED-CALL T Y "x" Z)), the resulting form will be (#_x y z) => ((lambda ( )(OPTIMIZED-CALL T Y "x" Z))) 15:41:57 anybody seeing other ways? 15:42:47 Yes, this looks better. 15:43:33 that's not just because i don't like the idea of generating lots of macros, but because the macro approach doesn't work when used for defclass options 15:43:36 findiggle [~kirkwood@50-194-56-154-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 15:44:07 the macro ends up not evaluated, and upon the image restart the macro is lost when the class is defined 15:44:53 ((lambda () ...)) could potentially be slower on some implementations 15:45:50 I don't see any other options; the first element of a form is either a symbol (where to make that useful your reader macro must have some side-effect) or a lambda 15:46:09 -!- snowylike [~sn@91-67-171-156-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:46:17 and #_x must read as exactly one object 15:46:26 kofno [~kofno@cpe-24-165-210-251.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:46:48 snowylike [~sn@91-67-171-156-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 15:46:56 another question, whether to handle #\. in the argument list 15:47:08 I don't like "read up to #\)", though; it doesn't compose with other uses of reader macros (e.g. [ ] for alternate list notations) 15:47:42 Why isn't there a lisp or FFI function defined for x? (perhaps not named X). ccl #_ expands to such functions '(#/NSMakeRect 1 2 3 4) --> (nextstep-functions:|NSMakeRect| 1 2 3 4) 15:47:44 Krystof: well, i see no other way there 15:48:18 Krystof: well, reading with READ should allow other reader macros. 15:48:35 ogamita: well, no, because you've lost the context 15:48:40 -!- paolo_m [~user@2-228-95-110.ip190.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:48:41 You just have to peek-a-lot, so you must accumulate read characters in a string and use concatenated streams. 15:48:58 if you find [#_x y z] in source, the strategy of "read up until #\)" fails 15:49:10 Ah, for outer reader macros, yes. 15:49:13 _d3f [~freedo@nl2.ovpn.to] has joined #lisp 15:49:44 so, since you have need for a different syntax anyway, why not do [x y z]? 15:49:48 It could be better to use {my-window.showAt x y} like I did for Objective-CL. 15:49:48 cfy [~ilisp@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 15:49:59 is there value in #_x when it is not the first element of a form? 15:50:00 Indeed. 15:50:14 does '#_x make sense? 15:50:15 Krystof: #_ is already established, and it's a lesser evil than [] 15:50:15 Krystof: what if I want to mix matlisp and commonqt? (: 15:50:23 pkhuong: there are lots of bracket pairs! 15:50:42 LiamH [~none@70.42.157.22] has joined #lisp 15:50:43 In ccl, '#/NSMakeRect --> nextstep-functions:|NSMakeRect| 15:50:48 I don't think it is a lesser evil, if it doesn't work 15:50:59 _danlentz [~danlentz@32.136.139.83] has joined #lisp 15:51:00 what is '#_x? 15:51:01 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 15:51:01 stassats: already established = collides with other libraries. 15:51:12 Krystof: undefined 15:51:22 so, that's what I mean by "it doesn't work" 15:51:58 #_x is only to be used at the first place of #\( 15:52:21 zorkmoid [c2ed8e15@gateway/web/freenode/ip.194.237.142.21] has joined #lisp 15:52:28 afternoon lisp world! 15:52:39 yes, I understand that you say that; I'm saying that that is not how the lisp reader expects to be used 15:53:16 well, i'm willing to sacrifice expectations 15:53:24 for what benefit? 15:53:54 don't tell me; now you have 12 users, you can't change the syntax 15:53:57 If compilers were cleverer you could maybe return (lambda (receiver &rest arguments) (apply #'optimized-call t receiver "x" arguments)). 15:54:16 heated argument! 15:54:19 Krystof: i hate [], and yes, i don't want to change existing code 15:54:39 ok, I think we're done 15:54:49 pkhuong: optimized-call is actually a macro 15:55:27 in the constraints that you've set, I don't think there is a better solution than the one you propose; I think it's a shame that your hatred of a bracket pair prevents you from implementing a technically better solution 15:55:40 gko [~user@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 15:55:47 what is wrong with brackets? 15:56:02 (you could implement the better one /as well/ and avoid breaking all previous existing code) 15:56:14 zorkmoid: they make things look ugly. like )))]))]) << a mess 15:56:50 the [ reader macro could read-delimited-list #\) 15:56:53 [x y z) 15:57:03 hkBst_ [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has joined #lisp 15:57:03 -!- hkBst_ [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has quit [Changing host] 15:57:03 hkBst_ [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 15:57:03 madnificent: alot of things make a lot of things ugly 15:57:03 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:57:26 Krystof: that seems very conterintuitive ... 15:57:30 Krystof: well, the downsides of a technically lesser solution aren't too bad 15:57:31 would also confuse emacs 15:58:34 and i think if you have that many closing parens .. of any sort you should refactor a bit ... 15:58:37 zorkmoid: and in what way is that an argument to do it? 15:58:50 if people want to use [], they can change the way #_ works 15:58:52 madnificent: [16:56] the [ reader macro could read-delimited-list #\) 15:59:03 i can provide functions for making that easy 15:59:05 zorkmoid: yes, that's ever worse 15:59:10 madnificent: is what i was arguing against, not proper paired brackets 15:59:14 also, the ] doesn't remove the amount of closing braces or whatever 16:00:20 i don't see why ))])))]])) is trouble some though ... 16:00:40 neither do I 16:00:50 -!- _danlentz [~danlentz@32.136.139.83] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi] 16:00:55 I hear in quantum mechanics, they use <| or |> kinds of brakets. 16:00:57 it wouldn't be much of a problem if the reader was case-sensitive by default, then an ordinary macro could be used 16:01:12 you could also change your font so that ] displays like ) 16:01:18 #\< read-delimited-list #\| #\| read-delimited-list #\> 16:02:22 the purpose of #_ is to keep the case, so, if maybe you have a way of making (#_xYz AbC whater) to be transformed into ( 16:02:23 stassats: again, check what I've done in Objective-CL. It uses readtable-case :preserve to read in []. 16:02:30 You could do the same reading in {}. 16:02:40 {xYz AbC whatever} 16:03:16 '{xYz AbC whatever} --> (OPTIMIZED-CALL T Y "xYz" |AbC| WHATEVER) 16:03:18 well, i'd rather not use [] or {}, that's the problem 16:03:37 « and » ? 16:03:42 some people don't even want to use #_, they surely rebel against [] 16:03:52 I prefer [] and {} than #_. 16:04:02 why not make the letter A the opening and the letter Z the end? that would work perfectly too -_- 16:04:05 And {} for C/C++ code looks nice. 16:04:16 Axyz AbC whateverZ 16:04:17 i've been meaning to do a hack where you can write tex for math stuff and have it convert to sexp, and render it prettyly.. 16:04:34 stardiviner [~stardivin@122.236.245.102] has joined #lisp 16:05:19 well, i can make my own #\( 16:05:42 -!- zorkmoid [c2ed8e15@gateway/web/freenode/ip.194.237.142.21] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 16:05:43 i'm surprised nobody mentioned that 16:05:55 TeX input method in emacs and support for unicode in symbols on the lisp end. 16:06:24 At least, with #\{, if a user is not happy with it, he can easily use other brackets. So mind parameterizing the closing parenthesis for read-delimited-list. 16:06:31 -!- mcsontos [mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-kplmhqxhckerqyox] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:06:38 hitecnologys1 [~hitecnolo@94.137.46.246] has joined #lisp 16:06:46 cfy` [~ilisp@115.239.1.90] has joined #lisp 16:07:29 -!- LiamH [~none@70.42.157.22] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:07:56 -!- cfy [~ilisp@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:07:57 you could override all the brackets to modify a special variable containing the current bracket type 16:08:07 then you would know which closing bracket to search for 16:08:56 Is the main issue preserving case? 16:09:05 ThomasH: yep 16:09:07 ThomasH: yes. 16:09:41 -!- hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@46.233.229.103] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:10:01 -!- hiyosi [~hiyosi@19.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:10:03 I'm sure case is not useful even in case sensitive API. You should try it, tr 'A-Z' 'a-z' |sort on all the Qt symbols. 16:10:12 dlowe: if you override the brackets, no one else does ;) So now, you also have to make sure you install your reader macros after everyone else. Surely we're long past the point where it's simpler to just use a dedicated bracket pair. 16:12:13 stassats: as an alternative, you could translate the qt-like naming to lisp-like naming. under the assumption they do it consistently. 16:12:28 stassats: in that case you can do your magick with regular macros 16:12:36 i'd rather not to 16:12:41 zolk3ri [~Zol1ka@unaffiliated/zolk3ri] has joined #lisp 16:12:47 why not? 16:13:04 i don't like it! 16:13:35 -!- Buglouse [~Buglouse@unaffiliated/Buglouse] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:13:48 ah well, if you want your interface to be distant from lisp, you're taking the right option 16:13:51 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-158-95.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:14:05 stassats: i think the suggestion to try to ignore the case is worth pursuing. you rarely see Foo and fOO be two different things anyway 16:14:40 H4ns: i need the string in the actual case 16:14:53 ykm [~ykm@124.155.255.229] has joined #lisp 16:14:57 otherwise i wouldn't be able to find the method 16:14:59 stassats: and you cannot map to the correctly cased version at compile time? 16:15:06 nope 16:15:12 bummer 16:15:16 stassats: you can lookup the string from an upcased symbol. 16:15:44 ogamita: looking up without a mapping is kind-of hard 16:15:47 Even if it's a map loaded and looked up at run-time 16:16:08 libdl has functions to list the symbols. 16:16:19 -!- bitonic [~user@93-63-184-150.ip28.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:16:20 foreign symbols. 16:16:53 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-158-95.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:18:00 bitonic [~user@93-63-184-150.ip28.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 16:18:21 -!- Thra11 [~thrall@87.112.186.70] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:18:28 ogamita: Qt is souped up C++. In the best case, that approach involves something like c++filt. I don't know how/if Qt's magic is exposed in symbol tables. 16:18:35 -!- Keshi [~Keshi@unaffiliated/keshi] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 16:18:49 -!- Jambato [~Jambato@2a01:e35:2f15:c40:211:d8ff:fe7d:2c4a] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:19:25 i'll go with #_ expanding to (lambda ()) anyway 16:19:37 it's good enough 16:23:39 -!- hkBst_ [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 16:24:17 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-66-149.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:25:58 LiamH [~none@70.42.157.22] has joined #lisp 16:27:06 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:28:23 ikarus- [~yhiselamu@lap.ee] has joined #lisp 16:28:49 and commonqt has all the required functions/macros which can be called with strings, so anybody desiring for a different syntax can implement whatever they want 16:29:19 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-66-149.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:33:24 -!- bitonic [~user@93-63-184-150.ip28.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:34:56 -!- zacts [~lcc@unaffiliated/zacts] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:34:56 *stassats* implemented it 16:35:03 at least now it works well with defclass 16:35:19 bitonic [~user@93-63-184-150.ip28.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 16:36:34 -!- spacefrogg is now known as spacefrogg^ 16:36:36 -!- leoc` [~leoc.git@p5DDBBA43.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:36:55 at the cost of not working with [], i can live with that 16:41:57 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@92.46.21.141] has joined #lisp 16:41:57 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@92.46.21.141] has quit [Changing host] 16:41:57 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 16:42:02 is there a way to check that a character is a terminating macro character? 16:45:58 KingsKnighted [~quassel@c-174-52-149-13.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:47:49 -!- hitecnologys1 [~hitecnolo@94.137.46.246] has quit [Quit: hitecnologys1] 16:48:09 -!- Joreji [~thomas@84-182.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:49:11 Joreji [~thomas@84-182.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 16:50:46 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:51:15 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 16:54:33 ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.131] has joined #lisp 16:54:55 stassats: conformingly only by reading it. 16:57:05 stassats: sorry, it's get-macro-character's second result. 16:57:42 can I guess without having written any CLOS? (on my ToDo list) before, after, or around the reader code 16:58:02 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:58:41 n2kra: the lisp reader isn't based on CLOS. Otherwise, you can guess the meaning of before, after or around for CLOS methods, but there's a bit or two that's unintuitive. 16:59:44 ogamita: indeed, thanks 17:00:26 smazga [~acrid@64.55.45.194] has joined #lisp 17:00:34 -!- LiamH [~none@70.42.157.22] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:00:45 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.214] has joined #lisp 17:02:26 pval [~on@39.Red-83-42-241.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 17:03:21 -!- ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.131] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:04:08 Buglouse [~Buglouse@unaffiliated/Buglouse] has joined #lisp 17:07:07 -!- chitofan [dcff02a3@gateway/web/freenode/ip.220.255.2.163] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:08:23 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:09:36 -!- Buglouse [~Buglouse@unaffiliated/Buglouse] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:10:08 antonv [5d7d2a66@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.42.102] has joined #lisp 17:13:09 -!- 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Leaving] 18:31:21 -!- browndawg [~browndawg@117.201.84.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 18:34:06 Corvidium [~cosman246@D-173-250-188-201.dhcp4.washington.edu] has joined #lisp 18:35:44 planet lisp RSS is broken again ... rss20.xml.1:11: parser error : Entity 'aacute' not defined 18:40:41 Bike [~Glossina@63-229-134-7.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 18:41:28 obtuse 18:43:16 -!- mkozjak [~mkozjak@unaffiliated/mkozjak] has left #lisp 18:43:55 no, AFAIU it's an HTML entity that's not allowed in XML 18:45:02 -!- peterhil` [~peterhil@91-157-48-47.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:45:41 -!- Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:45:43 Juanito-Jons [~jreynoso@187.240.179.197] has joined #lisp 18:51:06 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:51:15 -!- pval [~on@39.Red-83-42-241.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.4.1] 18:51:31 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 18:51:46 nikodem [~nikodem@user-46-112-66-187.play-internet.pl] has joined #lisp 18:52:03 Ralt_ [~ralt@89-92-204-200.hfc.dyn.abo.bbox.fr] has joined #lisp 18:52:32 browndawg [~browndawg@117.201.80.9] has joined #lisp 18:54:19 mstevens [~mstevens@81.2.103.20] has joined #lisp 18:54:19 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@81.2.103.20] has quit [Changing host] 18:54:19 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 18:55:04 or not defined by RSS' schema 18:55:15 fsvehla [~fsvehla@h081217181184.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 18:56:10 -!- Ralt_ [~ralt@89-92-204-200.hfc.dyn.abo.bbox.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:59:15 snowylike [~sn@91-67-171-156-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 18:59:17 Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 18:59:59 -!- msxx [~msxx@31.45.173.64] has quit [Quit: msxx] 19:00:24 -!- browndawg [~browndawg@117.201.80.9] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:01:07 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:01:12 snearch [~snearch@g225148224.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 19:01:41 HTML entity not allowed in XML? so a syntax error or rather, as p_l says, not in the schema but valid XML ? 19:01:49 -!- arenz [~arenz@HSI-KBW-046-005-062-174.hsi8.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 19:02:22 drewc: afaik there's a list of entities that are supported by "base" XML, but schema can introduce new ones 19:02:31 forgot a bit about those things 19:02:41 it's a case of pretty good tech polluted by horrible use 19:03:17 qNemo [~qN@89.207.216.208] has joined #lisp 19:03:28 HG` [~HG@wprt-4d09781f.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 19:03:54 hiato [~nine@41-135-86-50.dsl.mweb.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:04:01 -!- qptain_Nemo [~qN@89.207.216.208] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:04:18 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-158-95.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:06:08 p_l: hrm ... that is a bit different from the spec that I remember reading, but is has been a while, so read it again i will! :) 19:06:38 drewc: well, DTDs definitely could define entities, not sure about XML Schema 19:08:38 XML is not really "good tech". It's way too complicated compared to what it should be. 19:09:30 ehu [~ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 19:09:41 foom: it's a good tech used in a completely incorrect place. For *markup* (think "mostly text nodes with content and a bit of tags") it can be pretty awesome, and I have to say I love namespaces... 19:09:49 but actual deployment is %#&(&*)Y$Y)DILGJHST#$*(%&@$) 19:09:56 Qworkescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 19:10:40 p_l: regardless, xml is a syntax, and schemas have nothing to do with the markup langauge syntax ... so reading the xml spec to see what 'base' XML is, because I do not remember the 'list of entites' at all. 19:11:08 or: I may be confused about what is specified vs what is know vs what we are talking about :) 19:11:19 true dat :) 19:12:15 *drewc* has a wee bit of "http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-xml/" to read now 19:14:16 -!- kofno [~kofno@cpe-24-165-210-251.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:14:53 my faaaavorite feature in xml is ]>&yay; 19:15:48 or /etc/passwd, that's also a good one to use. 19:19:48 heh 19:20:02 that's significantly older than XML, though 19:20:47 I do not like XML for most things ... because it is not right at all. Why do I have to use the name in the closing tag when there is only one possible tag that can go there because of how is nests as a tree etc .. 19:21:45 " ... " ... ahh ... or even better ... "(<:html ...)" ;) 19:21:48 drewc: well, that's because it was supposed to be part of a big document where you might not have visibility of the whole tree. But yes, could have worked 19:21:51 p_l: sure, basically everything in xml is older than xml. 19:22:23 of course, sgml, which xml is based off of, does let you omit the end tag name. 19:22:32 drewc: <> works better for several western (and not only) languages due to not looking like normal syntax structure 19:23:24 p_l: yup ... and g-d knows all my data is in human languages and not computer formatted at all! :P 19:23:32 SGML also supports stuff like foom: you mean /etc/shadow I guess. 19:25:15 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-190-166.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 19:25:18 or: html and xhtml : not a bad idea. For data exchange? I prefer, well if we need text and multiple langs, JSON. Otherwise, sexps work well. 19:27:06 drewc: if I have closer coupling, yeah, JSON or sexps. In some cases variation on old unix formats. 19:27:37 in case of wildly different systems that I don't fully control and which might have different "aspects" as sole focus, I might go with XML 19:27:44 (I try to avoid binary of course, for simply reading reasons) 19:28:22 I actually had a use case for SOAP (in message mode, of course, not the horrible idea that is RPC mode) for expansion of the project we're doing at work 19:28:39 I do not go with XML for the simply reason that nothing I use specifies it, and I am not a 'common' programmer who does what they are told lol 19:29:15 yeah, SOAP to me is a big reason why XML is not so good. 19:29:17 just make sure that if you use xml, you don't make yourself vulnerable to an external entity attack, as above. 19:29:44 and, heh, json->xml is a one line CL repl fn :) 19:29:47 many xml libs will go do the wrong thing for you by default. 19:29:55 -!- ianmcorvidae|alt is now known as ianmcorvidae 19:30:35 drewc: I tend to say that there seem to be two schools on SOAP and XML use. One that goes from the direction of data to describe, and writes a schema first, and the other involves sprinkling magic `implements Serializable` or similar shit :> 19:31:05 (also, 1NF XML vs 2NF, and SOAP's message vs rpc mode) 19:31:20 Using a subset of lisp sexps would be the best. There's Rivest's sexps too. 19:31:45 iirc, hunchentoot comes with a demo. How do I run it? 19:31:57 ebobby [~fms@189.170.16.14] has joined #lisp 19:31:57 p_l: and then there is the prof who works at both schools, and knows both directions, and uses binary :P 19:31:57 slyrus [~chatzilla@70-90-161-58-ca.sfba.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 19:32:29 drewc: These days those seem to have an idea of what they are doing, though ;) 19:32:38 foom: how do you mitigate the external entity attack; is it something I have to worry about with cxml? 19:33:10 kpreid_ [~kpreid@50-196-148-102-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 19:33:16 agumonkey [~agu@240.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 19:33:19 the use case for XML+SOAP I had involved systems I won't be able to control, in configurations that would be explored by future users and tasks, and getting them all to exchange data in extensible way (and secure one) 19:33:22 yeah, and the most popular DB is MS access ... just because there is an idea does not mean it is right ... imo 19:33:39 drewc: I mean the guys that use binary 19:33:42 *drewc* has to use one XML for work all the time and does not like it 19:34:12 p_l: yup. me too for that matter :) 19:34:36 drewc: well, binary is too hard for the new guys ;) 19:34:49 (mostly. Or it's my naivete) 19:35:00 p_l: I try to avoid binary, for 'reading' reasons, where my eye is what reads 19:35:11 they will instead create horrible XML/JSON/YAML/whatever 19:36:11 (horrible in term of how the data is structured and exchanged) 19:36:21 true .... that is soon going to 'end' as such ... the AI winter is near over, and the AI spring approaches ... (<--- that is really IMNSHO, and not fact at all) 19:36:47 drewc: we eke out existence by renaming AI stuff 19:36:57 -!- chebastian [chebastian@c-d875e255.015-51-7673741.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [] 19:37:07 hell, we even got a bullshitty bastard adopted son of prolog in our code (aka Drools) 19:37:25 ... I am not sure anyone understands that part of the app 19:37:46 p_l: so, INSHO as well :D 19:37:57 foom: after brwosing the cxml docs I'm still not sure how it resolves entities by default 19:38:16 drewc: well, kinda observing the machine learning stuff etc. 19:39:16 drewc: also push for various AI-related things I sometimes only recognize as AI by virtue of doing my degree in AI and noting sometimes suspiciously similar constructions sold as "Business Intelligence" etc. :) 19:39:59 p_l: one thing that I have noticed over the last 18 months or so is "Moore's Law"... a lot of AI type tasks can be solved by simply twice the speed/ram etc ... so every 18 months, well... 19:40:26 drewc: best hope for graphen based processors then 19:40:49 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.96.129] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 19:41:15 drewc: meanwhile, my father found a book that talks about analytical way of solving certain hard numercial stuff which is essentially brute forced these days, because most AI work in symbolic math analysis skipped HPC notice 19:41:16 mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.96.129] has joined #lisp 19:41:33 *drewc* just bought two Raspberry PIs that have 4GB SD card, and cost about $50 all together ... and it is more powerful with more RAM and HDD space than the p166 I paid $5000 for in '95 19:41:35 and the methods allowed getting close results by single human to what takes a supercomputer days or weeks 19:41:59 (aviation fluid dynamics stuff) 19:42:24 -!- Juanito-Jons [~jreynoso@187.240.179.197] has quit [*.net *.split] 19:42:24 -!- breakds [~breakds@wifi-116.cs.wisc.edu] has quit [*.net *.split] 19:42:24 -!- MrWoohoo [~MrWoohoo@pool-173-67-109-10.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 19:42:24 -!- cdidd [~cdidd@95-26-97-39.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [*.net *.split] 19:42:24 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@50-196-148-102-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 19:42:24 -!- loke [~elias@bb115-66-85-121.singnet.com.sg] has quit [*.net *.split] 19:42:24 -!- Posterdati [~antani@host107-26-dynamic.59-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [*.net *.split] 19:42:25 -!- kpreid_ is now known as kpreid 19:43:18 p_l: yup ... I play chess every day, both blitz and standard. For a PC in Blitz, and can beat a computers with a 1500+ rating in a 3 or 5 min game ... and my blitz rating is only 1300 or so 19:43:43 p_l: isn't that rather typical though? people tend to replace good (intelligent) working with hard working 19:44:01 jasom: i don't know much about cxml. it says it supports file:// entity urls; you should use a custom entity resolver which doesn't allow it to load anything you don't expect. 19:44:03 -!- foreignFunction [~niksaak@94.27.88.117] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:44:04 snowylike: except computational fluid dynamics farts in Moore's general direction 19:44:18 because there are not enough atoms in the universe to compute a chess solution ... so AI for a chess game is research , hence IBMs deep blue 19:44:38 kofno [~kofno@cpe-24-165-210-251.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:45:46 p_l: in my mostly uninformed opinion, invoking moore's law is a cop-out to do exactly what i said above 19:45:55 snowylike: often, yes 19:46:01 -!- gf3 [~gf3@unaffiliated/gf3] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in] 19:46:23 hydan [~udzinari@ip-89-102-13-27.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 19:46:31 snowylike: though I find it awfully common more in "general computing" 19:46:37 gf3 [~gf3@unaffiliated/gf3] has joined #lisp 19:46:52 p_l: what is "general computing"? 19:46:56 systems programming, normal applications you use everyday, etc. 19:47:00 ah 19:47:06 -!- techlife [techlife@218.59.116.38] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 19:47:18 p_l: PI is the big one ... how long does it take for a computer to calculate what PI is? longer than there is 'Time' .... yet, there is a ratio from radius to circumference ... and it is smaller then 3.15 19:47:53 techlife [techlife@218.59.116.38] has joined #lisp 19:47:53 -!- techlife [techlife@218.59.116.38] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 19:47:59 cdidd [~cdidd@95-26-97-39.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 19:48:17 am i in #philosophy-of-computing? 19:48:22 loke [~elias@bb115-66-85-121.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 19:48:58 Posterdati [~antani@host107-26-dynamic.59-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 19:49:01 techlife [techlife@218.59.116.38] has joined #lisp 19:49:02 -!- techlife [techlife@218.59.116.38] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 19:49:13 breakds [~breakds@wifi-116.cs.wisc.edu] has joined #lisp 19:49:20 stassats: yeah, good point, my apologies... thought it was #scheme :P 19:49:22 Juanito-Jons [~jreynoso@187.240.179.197] has joined #lisp 19:49:27 stassats: slow time? 19:49:29 Allowing a remote request to specify a local file path to load is just a terribly bad idea, and it's insane that almost every xml parser has this issue. 19:49:44 *p_l* is sorry for derailing, but it's 2049 here 19:49:58 and I've been waking up at 0500 or earlier for few months now :) 19:50:03 p_l: well, your time is faster indeed, it's only 2013 here 19:50:15 Well, sgml was invented to write documents, not to send data over the internet 19:50:23 techlife [techlife@218.59.116.38] has joined #lisp 19:50:24 -!- techlife [techlife@218.59.116.38] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 19:50:27 or worse, to implement RMI. 19:50:30 hello 19:50:41 stassats: interesting. I have two servers synced with NTP, and they both show 50 minutes past hour 19:50:46 ... 19:50:51 i have started to read Land of Lisp and came to the chapter about conditionals.. 19:50:53 my god, so full of fail 19:50:59 *p_l* is, that is 19:51:00 it explains if, when, unless and cond 19:51:13 stassats: I tip my hat to you, sir. Well played. 19:51:16 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:51:28 *stassats* guesses p_l was snatched by the military or just watches too much war movies 19:51:31 while reading about cond, I was wondering whether there's any advantage to using cond vs a series of when statements? 19:51:40 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 19:51:43 techlife [techlife@218.59.116.38] has joined #lisp 19:51:44 -!- techlife [techlife@218.59.116.38] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 19:51:47 zvrba: define "advantage". 19:51:53 (when ..) (when ..) looks cleaner than cond 19:52:07 zvrba: it's not the same 19:52:08 Not when used inside an expression. 19:52:10 so if conditions are mutually exclusive, why would one use cond instead of when? 19:52:16 (+ (cond (x 1) (y 2) (t 3) z) 19:52:17 zvrba: then you should get you eyes checked ;) 19:52:31 techlife [~jimmy@218.59.116.38] has joined #lisp 19:52:32 -!- techlife [~jimmy@218.59.116.38] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 19:52:32 -!- antonv [5d7d2a66@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.42.102] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:52:44 pjb: ok, fair point. 19:52:45 stassats: The only difference from polish method of writing would be adding ":" between hours and minutes, and I found out that the so-called military time is the correct way to use 24h in english writing (at least formal one) 19:52:57 -!- kofno [~kofno@cpe-24-165-210-251.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:52:59 techlife [~jimmy@218.59.116.38] has joined #lisp 19:52:59 -!- techlife [~jimmy@218.59.116.38] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 19:53:02 zvrba: with a series of whens every condition will be checked; with a cond no more are tried after the first success 19:53:03 hammond [~abner@5070823C.static.ziggozakelijk.nl] has joined #lisp 19:53:07 stassats: and yes, I work for military now :P 19:53:17 zvrba: it's an important point: there are only expressions in lisp (and eg. in ruby too). 19:53:22 does anyone know a guy named zolkeri in here? 19:53:26 Bike: yeah, I realized that after I've asked the question. 19:53:34 urandom__ [~user@ip-88-152-207-199.unitymediagroup.de] has joined #lisp 19:53:39 zvrba: in C or python, there are expressions and statements, and you can't use a statement where an expression is expected. 19:53:45 zvrba: this is a major PITA. 19:53:46 techlife [~jimmy@218.59.116.38] has joined #lisp 19:53:47 -!- techlife [~jimmy@218.59.116.38] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 19:54:19 anyone knows zolkeri the lisp programmer? 19:54:19 ok, got it. the example was too simple then. 19:54:23 (in the book) 19:54:26 drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has joined #lisp 19:54:31 techlife [~jimmy@218.59.116.38] has joined #lisp 19:55:18 zvrba: also when writing your conditions in (cond you can assume that all previous conditions are false, which can aid in brevity 19:55:18 -!- jsfb [~jon@unaffiliated/jsfb] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:55:32 zolk3ri1 [~Zol1ka@catv-89-132-196-182.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 19:55:36 hammond: are you another one of his co-students? 19:56:17 -!- zorkmoid [58833e24@gateway/web/freenode/ip.88.131.62.36] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:56:54 no 19:57:17 hi 19:59:18 -!- Dalek_Baldwin [~Adium@71-84-34-33.dhcp.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:59:47 someone told me zolk3ri1 wants OP in here and he has been showing naked pictures of his button to achieve this goal 20:00:04 ... wat 20:00:32 i suspect someone's childish attempt at trolling by proxy 20:00:52 dabd [~dabd@a95-93-205-168.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 20:00:57 -!- xcombelle [~xcombelle@AToulouse-551-1-57-89.w92-146.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:01:07 oh wtf 20:01:20 p_l: well, that's not the first time with zolk3ri1 20:01:33 none of that is true, its not childish, aits not attempt its not trolling its not a proxy and you don't suspect anything actually. 20:01:50 hammond: I can't police PMs 20:02:08 p_L are you an OP? 20:02:25 hammond: one of. We tend not to wear the @ most of the time 20:02:54 p_l: can you kick/ban hammond? 20:03:08 Is zolk3ri1 going to be an OP here soon because he has been showing u button pictures lately? 20:03:10 that'd be awesome. 20:03:12 hammond: please, this is a #lisp channel, so yeah what stassats said 20:03:15 thats the rumor. 20:03:19 ... 20:03:46 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o p_l 20:03:54 button=ring=point=anus 20:03:57 XD 20:04:08 there's an outbreak in the kindergarten, again 20:04:25 -!- p_l has set mode +b *!*abner@*.static.ziggozakelijk.nl 20:04:25 -!- hammond [~pl@tsugumi.brage.info] has been kicked from #lisp by p_l (We don't appreciate runaways from kindergarten playing with their parent's computer) 20:04:43 -!- ChanServ has set mode -o p_l 20:05:09 ... sorry. I'm seeing a bit blurred so I wanted to give people more rope before hitting the red button 20:05:09 lool I love that reason. 20:05:13 p_l: it's useless to do that. there's a DDoS going on on the ziggozakelijk.nl domain. 20:05:35 useless to give them feedback like that, I mean. 20:05:42 ehu: didn't know that 20:06:13 p_l: I'm sure you didn't, but it was a news item on dutch news today (if it wasn't, I wouldn't have known either) 20:06:54 ehu: ah. 20:06:56 I'm a damn mono-lingual American, what does that domain serve? 20:07:17 -!- Patzy [~something@lns-bzn-51f-81-56-151-137.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:07:42 ziggo is a cable company. it's their SMB sales proposition. 20:07:50 ehu: I've had enough of tracking political nutjob news that would target my family, so I only get some of the biggest stuff from outside polish borders 20:07:54 (small medium business) 20:08:03 p_l: no worries, I was a bit slow because I was not IDENTIFIED properly and took a while to figure it out .. I would not have given any rope myself, so good job :) 20:08:08 (because too looking at news usually leaves with me full of anger) 20:08:19 just started PAIP, very nice book 20:08:29 random comment, but i felt like I had to say it 20:08:44 ebobby: great book, my favorite Lisp book on my shelf. 20:08:52 ebobby: it is, I enjoyed it quite a lot, especially bits about implementing languages in it, among other things 20:09:00 ThomasH: mono-lingual american <- isn't that redundant? 20:09:14 jasom: Indeed 20:09:16 jasom: there's a bunch of them that speaks spanish ;) 20:09:50 p_l: Call INS! 20:09:54 *drewc* speaks both of .ca's languages, and spoke the 'minor' one first! 20:10:26 i speak lisp 20:10:28 drewc: so you're one of the famed anglophone minority? 20:10:45 snowylike: even worse .. Acadian 20:10:46 zacts [~user@unaffiliated/zacts] has joined #lisp 20:10:51 *p_l* had very horrible french teacher, leaving him only able to say Bonjour, Au revoir, and a certain bit indecent proposition 20:10:52 I bought it for the kindle though, I feel like im missing out on the sensation of having it physically, but the book looks acceptable and I certainly love the flexibility of being able to carry my books with me. 20:12:15 p_l: My mère was a french teacher in the separate school system :) 20:12:40 p_l: was it a quote from moulin rouge? 20:12:43 sfa [~root@208.66.156.12] has joined #lisp 20:13:04 drewc: for a moment i thought you meant "california" with the ".ca" 20:13:18 stassats: I think the quote came into Poland through an unrelated song, but Moulin Rouge might have a similar phrase 20:13:19 and wondered "when did the french get there" 20:13:32 ebobby: I bought my physical version at the MIT coop, and had it autographed by Norvig :) 20:14:08 well, I live in SF, I guess I can go on to Norvig's door (I think he lives in Palo Alto) and ask him to sign my Kindle :D 20:14:16 snowylike: let me guess ... you are ignorant^WUSAsian? :) 20:14:18 -!- dabd [~dabd@a95-93-205-168.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:14:27 drewc: no, ignorant german 20:14:38 dabd [~dabd@a95-93-205-168.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 20:14:43 snowylike: ah .. danke! :) 20:14:50 don't mention the war! 20:14:53 du riechts so gut 20:15:18 now i feel bad for mentioning it 20:15:22 damn this german guilt 20:15:41 poppies have nothing to do with Opium, and everything to do with Nov 11th! 20:16:10 kofno [~kofno@cpe-24-165-210-251.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:16:30 OT alert 20:17:08 Jambato [~Jambato@2a01:e35:2f15:c40:211:d8ff:fe7d:2c4a] has joined #lisp 20:17:47 Keshi [~Keshi@unaffiliated/keshi] has joined #lisp 20:18:53 jlongster [~user@pool-96-238-181-209.rcmdva.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:19:11 heh 20:19:32 -!- sambio [~sambio@190.57.227.109] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:20:08 -!- jlongster [~user@pool-96-238-181-209.rcmdva.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 20:20:40 ebobby: PAIP in paper is indeed a mighty sight 20:21:24 meanwhile, a bit of low-level implementation question - is there anyway (or if it's even sensible) to make different page protections in different threads on "modern" OSes? Been thinking of how to implement tracking of links/modification of stuff belonging to address spaces of different threads for GC 20:21:47 p_l: "parallel" gc? 20:22:13 prxq: mmu context switches are rather expensive. 20:22:20 p_l: no. all threads share the same address space (and mappings and protections). that's what distinguishes threads from processes. 20:22:25 prxq: concurrent, too, with possibility of just deallocating whole regions if they aren't referred 20:22:28 PAIP unfortunately is not cheap, but I will probably get it in physical form just to have it in my shelf and smell it from time to time. 20:22:29 prxq: with multicore, all mapped memory is accessible to all threads. 20:22:48 LiamH [~none@70.42.157.22] has joined #lisp 20:23:05 p_l: shared memory, and either multiple mapping, unportable stuff like clone, or faking it with processes. 20:23:07 multicore actually doesn't matter, what matters is whether you can modify the mappings in MMU, but I guess it won't work 20:23:17 killerboy [~mateusz@217.17.38.43] has joined #lisp 20:23:30 You can (with the help of the kernel). 20:23:42 pkhuong: yeah, I was looking if I didn't miss something. Processes with shared mmap()-based allocation seemed the only way 20:23:46 the OS maintains a single set of page tables for each process. 20:24:07 But again, MMUs are not designed to do fine grain access right management. 20:24:42 zvrba: actually, on Linux each thread is a process of its own, that happens apparently to point to same vm mapping in its control block 20:24:50 I mean, PMMUs. A segmented MMU could give better results there. 20:25:00 pjb: ... right 20:25:10 *prxq* doesn't know jack about MMU context switches 20:25:24 The azul patchset might have interesting stuff. 20:25:26 so I could get something done with 32bit x86 (amd64 segments aren't portable) 20:25:39 pkhuong: you mean the Azul JVM stuff? 20:26:08 p_l: given CLONE_THREAD, the distinction between process and thread is moot... 20:26:12 -!- LiamH [~none@70.42.157.22] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:26:14 when scheduling is 1:1 20:26:54 p_l: well, their kernel megapatch. 20:27:08 (for linux/x86) 20:27:23 p_l: some reorganization was needed because in the "old" thread model (where thread was the same thing as process), signals didn't work properly 20:27:31 zvrba: yes, I know. I've been looking for some interesting ways to implement certain stuff other than inlining certain tracking in instructions 20:27:50 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-5f75d562.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:28:07 prxq [~mommer@mnhm-5f75d562.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 20:28:21 -!- breakds [~breakds@wifi-116.cs.wisc.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:28:39 pkhuong: hmm... didn't most of their work concentrate on STM use? 20:28:39 pkhuong: hmm..? what does azul's patch do? 20:28:59 p_l: modify_ldt ! 20:29:03 mind you, STM might be interesting approach as well, with GC using it as well 20:29:07 p_l: I'm not convinced that HW write barriers really result in better performance than SW ones. In most cases, HW WB just have an effect that's harder to measure and pinpoint. 20:29:15 it's a syscall, so you can define your own segments 20:29:22 pkhuong: thanks for input 20:29:48 p_l: a bunch of extensions to improve the performance of the mapping tricks in their concurrent moving GC. 20:30:04 -!- __class__ [~class@99-105-56-217.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:30:37 normanrichards [~normanric@rrcs-108-178-120-144.sw.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:30:41 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:31:23 hm.. why does (eq 3 3) return t, but (eq 3.2 3.2) nil ? 20:31:43 oops, nvm 20:31:46 pkhuong: ahh 20:31:49 zvrba: numeric equality is not guaranteed with eq 20:31:52 because it's a float ? 20:32:04 use = 20:32:09 zvrba: (eq 3 3) may actually return nil too 20:32:11 i know about = 20:32:14 ,(= 3.2 3.2) 20:32:28 why do people keep thinking , is going to eval 20:32:28 but eq returning t means the two things are identical. as in, the same object. 20:32:39 eql will work on 3.2 20:32:45 zvrba: right, and two fixnums with the same value don't have to be the same object. 20:32:47 stassats: i know :) 20:32:52 = has different semantics from eql 20:33:00 Bike: too many other channels using that? 20:33:03 stassats: how is it different? 20:33:17 Bike: exactly. but why are they, according to eq? 20:33:20 zvrba: well, integers. this is useful with bignum implementations and such, where two of the same number may point to different objects 20:33:22 (= 3 3.0) => T ; eql => NIL 20:33:39 zvrba: it's implementation-dependent. iirc on sbcl fixnums happen to be eq, but not bignums 20:33:46 and (= 3 "a") => error, eql => NIL 20:33:57 zvrba: because fixnums are immediate values but bignums are pointed to, I think. 20:33:58 zvrba: http://www.nhplace.com/kent/PS/EQUAL.html may be insightful 20:34:14 fixnums don't have to be immediate values. 20:34:19 Bike: jupp. just tested with bignums, returns nil. 20:34:37 well, maybe not 20:34:37 pjb: right, i meant in sbcl. 20:34:40 pkhuong: given some of the ideas I had which made me look into memory barriers, I guess I can go completely with software ones 20:34:49 H4ns: there used to be a demo bundled with hunchentoot. Is it still there? (how do I invoke it?) 20:35:02 ikki [~ikki@187.208.192.217] has joined #lisp 20:35:10 Ralt_ [~ralt@89-92-204-200.hfc.dyn.abo.bbox.fr] has joined #lisp 20:35:12 prxq: you need to load hunchentoot test and then start an easy-acceptor instance 20:35:14 H4ns: oh, seems useful. thanks. 20:35:24 zvrba: but basically use = if you're comparing numbers, and eql if you want eq but also that chars are eql and numbers (of the same format!) are eql. 20:35:27 prxq: load :hunchentoot-test 20:35:32 H4ns: ok, will try. Thanks. 20:35:43 -!- Ralt_ [~ralt@89-92-204-200.hfc.dyn.abo.bbox.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:36:24 -!- sfa [~root@208.66.156.12] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:36:29 pkhuong: basically, looking into a making a CL implementation (cribbing a lot of stuff from SBCL, probably) more concentrated at generating small and quickly *responding* (not necessarily fast in calculations) code 20:36:31 prxq: hunchentoot-test also exports a regression test script, see hunchentoot-test:test-hunchentoot - might be insightful, too 20:36:51 -!- snits [~snits@inet-hqmc06-o.oracle.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:37:52 p_l: I find it interesting that stuff like the HW dirty bits exposed by solaris aren't a clear win either, especially with large heaps and generational GC (ISTR numbers for BDW and for a fork-based concurrent mark/sweep). 20:37:55 Dalek_Baldwin [~Adium@108-225-26-178.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:37:58 cpc26 [~cpc26@fsf/member/cpc26] has joined #lisp 20:39:27 pkhuong: I was thinking of partitioned, BIBOP-ed (a bit) heaps, with whole regions discarded if references to them didn't escape outside 20:39:48 a sort of "maximize dynamic extent" 20:39:54 p_l: what are you implementing? 20:40:11 zvrba: for now just planning 20:40:16 too busy with Java stuff at work 20:41:23 H4ns: I've loaded hunchentoot-test, and did (start (make-instance 'easy-acceptor :port 12345)). but on that port there is just the default page with a link to docs 20:41:25 but I had an idea for modular (so you could drop compiler, for example, as a form of coarse-grained tree-shaking), smallish CL that would implement all the features of "big" implementations, just maybe not as fast for calculations 20:41:52 H4ns: so obviously /me does not get it :O) 20:42:12 especially with bits of soft-realtime 20:42:59 snits [~snits@174-17-112-107.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 20:43:27 (so, games, etc. maybe even robotics, and ability to make small executables, while possibly playing with some weirder bits) 20:43:44 prxq: /hunchentoot/test is the url 20:44:04 LiamH [~none@70.42.157.22] has joined #lisp 20:44:08 prxq: is that not in the documentation? if so, please open a github issue 20:44:30 H4ns: it works, thanks. 20:44:46 H4ns: I searched for "demo" in the docs but did not see it. 20:45:48 ok, it's under "Your own webserver (the easy teen-age New York version)" 20:46:09 -!- edgar-rft [~GOD@HSI-KBW-149-172-63-75.hsi13.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Quit: paranoid] 20:46:23 breakds [~breakds@wifi-116.cs.wisc.edu] has joined #lisp 20:46:40 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-190-166.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:47:47 -!- zacts [~user@unaffiliated/zacts] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:48:31 -!- cpc26 [~cpc26@fsf/member/cpc26] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.9] 20:49:05 Ralt_ [~ralt@89-92-204-200.hfc.dyn.abo.bbox.fr] has joined #lisp 20:49:56 Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-72-66-99-183.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:50:34 cpc26 [~cpc26@fsf/member/cpc26] has joined #lisp 20:50:58 -!- LiamH [~none@70.42.157.22] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:51:20 -!- snits [~snits@174-17-112-107.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:51:26 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:51:53 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 20:52:24 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-190-166.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 20:52:30 -!- Qworkescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 20:52:50 -!- cpc26 [~cpc26@fsf/member/cpc26] has quit [Client Quit] 20:53:10 snits [~snits@inet-hqmc02-o.oracle.com] has joined #lisp 20:55:08 root__ [~root@208.66.156.12] has joined #lisp 20:55:41 sambio [~sambio@190.57.227.109] has joined #lisp 20:56:04 -!- root__ [~root@208.66.156.12] has quit [Client Quit] 20:57:28 -!- snowylike [~sn@91-67-171-156-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de] 20:59:10 jsfb [~jon@unaffiliated/jsfb] has joined #lisp 20:59:22 atsidi [~nkraft@ip72-192-253-246.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 20:59:36 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@70-90-161-58-ca.sfba.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:00:29 -!- yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.169] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:02:18 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@rrcs-108-178-120-144.sw.biz.rr.com] has quit [] 21:06:22 -!- sambio [~sambio@190.57.227.109] has quit [] 21:07:24 slyrus [~chatzilla@70-90-161-58-ca.sfba.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 21:09:07 -!- Ralt_ [~ralt@89-92-204-200.hfc.dyn.abo.bbox.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:10:05 LiamH [~none@70.42.157.22] has joined #lisp 21:10:35 pyx [~pyx@108.162.178.78] has joined #lisp 21:10:51 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@101.175.206.6] has quit [Quit: Bye] 21:12:21 -!- LiamH [~none@70.42.157.22] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:12:32 -!- brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-142-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:16:15 -!- answer_42 [~answer_42@gateway/tor-sasl/answer42/x-66983568] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:19:43 irpanech6 [~user@24.68.147.45] has joined #lisp 21:19:45 -!- kofno [~kofno@cpe-24-165-210-251.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:20:20 -!- atsidi [~nkraft@ip72-192-253-246.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:22:55 -!- Jambato [~Jambato@2a01:e35:2f15:c40:211:d8ff:fe7d:2c4a] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:25:42 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:28:02 H4ns, stassats: good evening 21:29:06 luqui [~luqui@63-227-113-46.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 21:31:00 toekutr [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 21:33:26 H4ns, stassats: i though a lot about what you told me regarding another cl implementation/environment. i tried to write down some very personal reasons and thoughts behind me asking, if you care to read (: http://paste.lisp.org/display/134898 21:34:22 'very personal' and #lisp ... probably should be mutually exclusive. 21:34:42 bughead [~bughead@HSI-KBW-078-043-173-181.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 21:35:24 Woah, you mean this isn't like Facebook? 21:35:44 not even Facebook is Facebook these days. 21:35:49 Fade, probably not expressing myself well enough in a foreign language guessing 'subjective' would have been a better word? 21:36:19 -!- irpanech6 [~user@24.68.147.45] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 21:36:24 hydan: I understood your meaning. I was just making a joke about what bastards we are around here. 21:37:03 kiwnix [~egarcia@62.83.120.113.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 21:37:11 -!- snearch [~snearch@g225148224.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 21:37:20 ahoops [~ahoops__@121.96.14.223] has joined #lisp 21:38:12 you're going to work on it in your spare time? sorry to be blunt, this is thing will never succeed 21:38:35 rob a bitcoin bank 21:38:50 why don't you set more appropriate goals? 21:39:07 kofno [~kofno@cpe-24-165-210-251.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:42:07 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:42:31 stassats: which goals? 21:42:57 prxq: "how will it be different?" 21:44:21 -!- breakds [~breakds@wifi-116.cs.wisc.edu] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:44:30 prxq: if you mean, which appropriate, something achievable in a relatively short amount of time at one's current experience 21:45:37 like, six months, not ten years 21:46:28 stassats: having automated a lot of things at my work, i have a lot of spare time when i am not on-call. what about a goal a) to learn lisp better b) try to do something useful with/for one of those compilers? i do pan to start small with goals like that, not setting any at the moment though. i bet i can at least run some tests and report bugs in six months (: 21:47:25 -!- svetlyak40wt [~svetlyak4@broadband-95-84-141-55.nationalcablenetworks.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:47:48 and working on tools gets boring pretty quick 21:49:07 hydan: i see [1] and [2], but not where they should point to 21:49:23 and i don't believe that writing a compiler is the best way to learn common lisp 21:49:28 or any language, for that matter 21:50:11 -!- JPeterson [~JPeterson@s213-103-211-4.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- \o/] 21:50:38 JPeterson [~JPeterson@s213-103-211-4.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 21:50:49 stassats: i work on tools long time.. and teach other people how to work with tools. like automation scripts in bash and stuff for polling routers etc. i really enjoy creating small thing that get the work done easier. 21:51:17 well, if you work all the time on tools, there's no work being done 21:51:36 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:51:52 stassats: why? other people and me as well use them. i use them all the time when i am on-call. 21:52:02 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 21:52:06 hydan: it looks like a project with high frustration potential 21:52:32 prxq: that is probably an understatement (: 21:52:36 -!- Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-72-66-99-183.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:53:15 LiamH [~none@70.42.157.22] has joined #lisp 21:54:13 hydan: we all prefer motivated people who enjoy success instead of frustration. 21:54:19 madnificent: sorry, please ignore [1], [2] was meant to be http://www.chris-granger.com/2013/01/24/the-ide-as-data/ 21:54:30 Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-72-66-99-183.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:55:18 stassats: I work for a compilers company; are we getting no work done? 21:55:26 prxq: i share the argument, but does success come without frustration? 21:55:31 -!- LiamH [~none@70.42.157.22] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:55:35 jasom: you're twisting my words 21:56:34 stassats: I guess it depends on what hydan was talking about; if he enjoys making other peoples work easier, then what you said doesn't apply. If he actually wants to travel somewhere but is just staying at home tweaking his car, then what you said does 21:56:39 hydan: it depends. You can have lots of success without frustration, and lots of frustration without success. 21:56:52 jasom: first of all, hydan won't get any money from this project any time soon, and no users as well 21:58:06 Joreji [~thomas@84-182.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 21:58:13 prxq: maybe if you are a genius or something (: for example. i wish my work was all fun and joy, but even teaching, which i enjoy a lot comes quite uneasy sometimes. 21:58:15 normanrichards [~normanric@67-198-16-147.static.grandenetworks.net] has joined #lisp 21:58:39 hydan: I agree with stassats that if what you want to do is use your ide to write code, it's probably never going to net positive. If what you want to accomplish is to write an IDE, then that's an end in itself 22:01:11 -!- luqui [~luqui@63-227-113-46.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: luqui] 22:01:18 hydan: the genius often lies in choosing the tree to bark up to 22:02:07 -!- JPeterson [~JPeterson@s213-103-211-4.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:02:24 -!- bioevolgenec1 [~bioevolge@athedsl-341257.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:02:27 JPeterson [~JPeterson@s213-103-211-4.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 22:02:28 stassats: i was not getting any money for playing video games and working out either (: do you really think nothing positive can come out of this i.e. improving my current work activities at very least? can you suggest a compelling reason not to do it other than the high likelihood of failure? i am not arguing, genuinely interested in argument. 22:02:43 s/argument/discussion/ 22:03:21 -!- ahungry [~null@66.184.106.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:03:49 breakds [~breakds@wifi-116.cs.wisc.edu] has joined #lisp 22:04:11 jasom: i like both the driving and tinkering! but have been doing too much of the former and interested to try the later, somebody makes those cars, don't they? 22:04:34 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 22:05:31 I just wasted a bunch of time looking at Light Table. Pretty cool IDE. 22:05:31 worstadmin [~worst@174.141.213.36] has joined #lisp 22:06:08 bioevolgenec [~bioevolge@unaffiliated/bioevolgenec] has joined #lisp 22:06:39 hydan: but how many people build their own cars and expect to sell it while making a profit 22:06:46 -!- nikodem [~nikodem@user-46-112-66-187.play-internet.pl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:06:49 Elon Musk 22:07:01 many make toy cars :) 22:07:11 and sell them 22:07:31 felideon: Seriously, there is the "homebuilt" aircraft market. 22:07:32 I doubt there's a market for toy IDEs, and if there is, Light Table is taking the light spot 22:07:36 improving is one thing, i myself am involved in development of SBCL and Slime, but it takes a small percentage of total work, and i'm certainly not thinking "gee, if only i could that full-time" 22:07:44 ThomasH: do people sell those as a business? 22:07:50 I was looking at a mustangII kit just yesterday. 22:08:00 well, that's wildly off topic. 22:08:09 felideon: Yes, people sell the kits, you build it. 22:08:14 OT indeed. 22:10:11 hydan: good luck. 22:11:21 all in all, it's not a bad thing, just your goals are too abstract and too big 22:12:50 hydan: Small successes lead to large successes. It also helps to study/use/understand current art so that you know what the annoyances are and where the biggest improvements are to be made. 22:13:10 LiamH [~none@70.42.157.22] has joined #lisp 22:13:44 prxq: thanks! stassats: i get it. but they are more like a direction to walk towards, given i do like working on tools very much. it brings me pleasure to see somebody say 'hey, that just saved me 20 minutes per task!' or similar. 22:15:50 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-185-82-146.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:16:43 -!- LiamH [~none@70.42.157.22] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:17:19 ThomasH, stassats: a goal for me would be to devote more time to learning lisp and start to contribute at least something to one of the projects i would be likely to reuse if the rest would come to be. maybe 6 month to a year for these for starters. i can set other short 'goals' later on. but those two are the ones i have in mind at the moment. 22:18:18 hydan: sounds good 22:18:57 a goal like: does goal like: get a 'thanks' for submitting a bug report to sbcl sounds reasonable to you? (: 22:19:55 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:20:14 -!- Corvidium [~cosman246@D-173-250-188-201.dhcp4.washington.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 22:20:22 ThomasH: heh ... "homebuilt" is something that us sailors know all about ... I am about to purchase my third 'non-factory built' yacht... and it is on topic because my lisping paid for it all :) 22:20:25 rpg [~rpg@23-25-144-217-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 22:20:33 -!- snits [~snits@inet-hqmc02-o.oracle.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:20:51 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has joined #lisp 22:21:00 Qworkescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 22:21:10 *jasom* hasn't gone sailing since the kids arrived 22:21:16 hydan: not really, i don't plan for bugs, they just happen 22:21:37 no matter how determined i am, i can't force a bug to appear out of nowhere 22:22:09 drewc: I noticed that looking for day-sailers. If you wanted to race certain classes, you could get the plans, build to spec, and get it certified. 22:22:40 -!- kofno [~kofno@cpe-24-165-210-251.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:22:42 jasom: I have lived about a sailboat for like 5 years at this point ... so do not have a choice. wind is blowing? then I am sailing . 22:22:55 -!- francisl [~flavoie@199.84.164.114] has quit [Quit: francisl] 22:23:09 can i talk about hookers and blow if they are paid by lisping? 22:23:41 stassats: please! and tell me where and how! 22:23:55 after all, lisp on lines, not on rails ;) 22:24:07 -!- rpg [~rpg@23-25-144-217-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Client Quit] 22:24:11 -!- sirdancealot [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:24:39 well, thanks everyone! i don't think i want to be part of that anymore (: have a good time-of-day 22:25:30 -!- sirdancealot1 [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:25:33 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.96.129] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:26:02 -!- stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-238-072.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 22:26:09 -!- HG` [~HG@wprt-4d09781f.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:26:39 impomatic [~digital_w@187.120.125.91.dyn.plus.net] has joined #lisp 22:30:37 snits [~snits@inet-hqmc02-o.oracle.com] has joined #lisp 22:32:17 ThomasH: I like ferro-cement hulls for liveaboards and long term cruising ... and ferro-cement was never done in a factory simply because it makes little sense when fiberglass is available and productions lines can do it all. (member *hull* `(:ferro-cement :lapstrake :fiberglass :epoxy ,@ *other-hull-materials*)) => T 22:32:37 -!- segv- [~mb@dslb-094-223-004-056.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: segv-] 22:33:05 *ThomasH* smirks 22:34:35 LiamH [~none@70.42.157.22] has joined #lisp 22:35:29 cfy`` [~ilisp@115.239.4.1] has joined #lisp 22:35:32 MoneyIsDebt [~moneyisde@ppp-110-168-238-153.revip5.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 22:36:23 -!- adelgado [~TomSawyer@65.23.61.98.nw.nuvox.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:36:33 robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:37:40 -!- cfy` [~ilisp@115.239.1.90] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:39:20 -!- robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:39:32 robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:41:06 -!- kiwnix [~egarcia@62.83.120.113.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:41:07 sirdancealot1 [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 22:41:15 -!- MoneyIsDebt [~moneyisde@ppp-110-168-238-153.revip5.asianet.co.th] has quit [Quit: Bye bye now] 22:43:28 -!- ikki [~ikki@187.208.192.217] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 22:44:44 -!- cdidd [~cdidd@95-26-97-39.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:45:10 -!- bughead [~bughead@HSI-KBW-078-043-173-181.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:48:55 -!- stopbit [~stopbit@static-108-48-124-82.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:49:58 -!- stlifey [~stlifey@116.19.143.214] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.0] 22:51:08 notzmv [~zmv@186.204.146.141] has joined #lisp 22:51:46 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:52:12 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 22:52:26 -!- LiamH [~none@70.42.157.22] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:52:37 -!- Keshi [~Keshi@unaffiliated/keshi] has quit [Quit: Zzz...] 22:55:33 -!- ikarus- [~yhiselamu@lap.ee] has quit [Quit: #yhiselamu | www.yhiselamu.ee (Session timeout)] 22:57:19 What does PLT mean? I'm laughing at like 2/3 of these: http://this-plt-life.tumblr.com/ 22:57:27 "programming language theory" 22:57:28 -!- ThomasH [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/thomash] has left #lisp 22:57:32 Aha, thanks. 22:57:34 -!- Qworkescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 22:58:45 ikki [~ikki@187.240.179.197] has joined #lisp 22:59:16 don't I have a badminton PLT and a tennis PLT? (<--- guy must be confused about the name change ... he uses Tennis Dr.) 23:00:06 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:00:07 drewc: keep an eye out I finally stumbled across the snippet of code which demonstrates the problem with planks.btree/persistent-standard-class 23:01:28 danlentz: ohh! that is good, because it has been over 3 years since I did that, and my 'client' at the time decided to go with something else, so yay!!! 23:02:32 (the proper 'functional b-tree' thing is a part of what I want to do in 2013 actually ... just have a lot more research to do ; 23:02:34 ) 23:03:17 When he says "the dynlang" move that failed, in the 1990s, what languages is he talking about? 23:04:32 drewc: yes, next time i will expedite my bug reporting service. Theres no reason it should have taken me anything more than 2 years.... 23:05:29 danlentz: well, 2 years ago I missed about 6 months out of the year .. 2011, not so great for me ... so, you have done the right thing! 23:05:30 -!- Juanito-Jons [~jreynoso@187.240.179.197] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:07:31 kofno [~kofno@cpe-24-165-210-251.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:07:46 bitonic [~user@ppp-18-187.25-151.libero.it] has joined #lisp 23:09:10 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-185-82-146.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:09:17 drewc: actually planks is somewhat prohibitive perfprmance-wise, but I was thinking that the MOP portion would work nicely as a template for adding persistem-object to my library cl-ctrie, 23:09:19 rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 23:10:47 drewc: is your google address the proper channel for that type of email? 23:11:16 thats where i sent it anyway. I also have a tech.coop addr 23:12:38 ctries arent 'functional' but they have some very unique and desirable properties 23:15:30 -!- kofno [~kofno@cpe-24-165-210-251.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 23:16:38 rking: maybe java? 23:16:48 danlentz: me@drewc.ca 23:17:18 they all go to the same mailbox :) 23:19:59 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@70-90-161-58-ca.sfba.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:20:03 oh, well i just forwarded you another copy then 23:20:10 slyrus [~chatzilla@70-90-161-58-ca.sfba.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 23:20:24 im late. but im thorough... 23:20:42 :) 23:22:01 -!- pavelpenev [~quassel@85-130-11-8.2073813645.shumen.cablebg.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:22:26 I see it! and I am glad that you like the persistent CLOS thing .. I did that 'first' really, and the btree was just to store/index things 23:23:18 then I focused on the functional aspect of it, because of threads more than anything else... 23:23:19 pavelpenev [~quassel@85-130-11-8.2073813645.shumen.cablebg.net] has joined #lisp 23:23:48 -!- rdqfdx [~rdqfdx@78.90.88.244] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:26:10 i liked the btree because to was cool. I like the MOP impl because it is a clean and uncluttered design 23:26:15 and was going to fix the performace and collect the garbage ... and, 2013, well... the PCLOS will likely come out on its own ... regardless, I will say so in public ... the licence is MIT so use it as you see fit as long as "Drew Crampsie " is known as the copyright :) 23:26:39 and that is a different mailbox from my other three! :) 23:27:16 -!- Joreji [~thomas@84-182.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:27:38 Joreji [~thomas@84-182.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 23:27:51 and not gmail related at all, dovecot/postfix and postgresql... so spammers, that is the address that is not google .... try and I will see! 23:28:56 -!- ikki [~ikki@187.240.179.197] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 23:29:08 -!- hydan [~udzinari@ip-89-102-13-27.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 23:29:42 luqui [~luqui@63-227-113-46.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 23:29:45 *drewc* is now looking at scratch.lisp ... 23:30:11 and, heh ... I need to look at the src again, for it does seem wrong, and I have no idea why 23:30:19 hydan [~udzinari@ip-89-102-13-27.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 23:32:55 hi 23:33:06 well I will try to attribute your work appropriately, but perhaps defer some praise and adulation for when it actually works... :) 23:33:58 yeah, try not to insult my non-working code to much... though some is deserved :) 23:34:50 actually I've always been a fan of planks 23:36:20 I was a big fan of what planks was supposed to become, and really, I both learned a lot and created something 'new' while doing it ... so thank you! I am glad that you recognize what it was supposed to be :P 23:36:37 I'd probably be a fan of more of your stuff too if it wasnt so completely baffling :) 23:37:04 yeah, that is now what I am working on .. being a teacher not a student essentially 23:37:50 http://drewc.org/interface/monads.html <--- is about 2/3 of the way through my first attempt at 'proper' docs. 23:37:56 -!- Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-72-66-99-183.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:39:28 my Mother was a teacher and just retired this school year ... so I figure that me and my sis have to 'take over' in some sense. She has classes that she teaches like one a week, so I have to fill in that gap of my life as well 23:40:15 i learned a lot from planks about what to aspire to in terms of elegant design. There are plenty of places one could look to find out practical details of btree implementation 23:41:21 -!- agumonkey [~agu@240.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 23:43:36 wow i will read this. maybeI will finally understand how FTW works :) 23:44:03 ikki [~ikki@187.208.192.217] has joined #lisp 23:44:45 yeah, all the monads there are based on the monads provided in FTW :) 23:44:45 and even better, how to do SMUG is part of my tutorial/tests 23:45:14 -!- bioevolgenec [~bioevolge@unaffiliated/bioevolgenec] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 23:45:45 yeah that was a good tutorial 23:46:34 well the start of one it petered out at the end iirc 23:47:55 -!- Tarential [~Tarential@li472-156.members.linode.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 23:48:12 well, http://drewc.org/interface/monads.html#sec-5 ... eventually SMUG will become the monads that are there, and the tutorial will pretty much be 'done' at that point. The reason I did not finish it was because I discovered monads are useful, and needed proper monads 23:48:12 now that I have that via interfaces ... well back to where I came from, but this time properly armed. 23:48:17 Tarential [~Tarential@li472-156.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 23:48:31 Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 23:49:36 -!- ehu [~ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:49:40 -!- worstadmin [~worst@174.141.213.36] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:50:08 -!- jsfb [~jon@unaffiliated/jsfb] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 23:50:12 is this runnimng on ucw? 23:50:24 worstadmin [~worst@174.141.213.33] has joined #lisp 23:50:30 linse [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1177917310.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 23:50:43 the web site? no, not at all. 23:51:11 It is nginx and/or apache based on an org-mode file called : drewc.org.org 23:51:56 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:52:06 y i saw apache but was holding out hope that it was just a front-end proxy 23:52:08 do not tell anyone, but I stole the design of drewc.org! http://renard.github.com/o-blog/ :) 23:52:20 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 23:52:28 no ... that is a completely static web site 23:52:50 there are no cgis, nothing that requires a server beyond apache 23:53:51 there is a good reason for that, basically it has to do with my not paying attention for a while but it still will be up because it is static 23:53:56 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@70-90-161-58-ca.sfba.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:53:59 -!- snits [~snits@inet-hqmc02-o.oracle.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:54:27 ive been studying the hu.dwim platform and its web application machinery 23:55:26 -!- smazga [~acrid@64.55.45.194] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.1.1] 23:55:59 not sure if id use the web sever portions myself but it really is a good exercise to study 23:57:16 Corvidium [~cosman246@D-173-250-188-201.dhcp4.washington.edu] has joined #lisp 23:57:18 The web server is based on UCW, non? Or rather: heh, I have not looked at the code in a while ... maybe I should look again 23:57:40 and some parts i've grown quite fond of. Especially the hu.dwim.meta-model 23:58:39 "It takes suspiciously long to load the page..." ok ... so closing the dwim.hu tab ... 23:58:51 no its rewritten but maybe retains a touch of the flavor 23:58:58 oh yeah 23:59:15 wel;l yopu should see the code that the site is built from 23:59:16 zacts [~user@unaffiliated/zacts] has joined #lisp 23:59:47 They clearly spent 1 our tops on that site and havent touched it sice