00:00:08 stassats: nah you were the one to point it out to me last time i asked :) 00:00:25 can't be true 00:00:28 am i asking the question wrong? 00:00:56 ah nm that was for sorting the slots of a class... sorry for the noise :) 00:02:08 -!- ase [~se@ip56583baa.direct-adsl.nl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:04:20 sw2wolf [~czsq888@171.212.254.144] has joined #lisp 00:06:34 jleija [~jleija@50.8.41.50] has joined #lisp 00:08:09 -!- nan_ [~user@178.233.216.230] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:09:01 normanrichards [~normanric@70.114.215.220] has joined #lisp 00:09:25 -!- add^_ [~add^_@m37-3-63-237.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: The Garbage Collector got me...] 00:09:41 -!- univyrse is now known as univyrse|spaghet 00:09:42 -!- smazga [~acrid@64.55.45.194] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:09:57 -!- findiggle [~kirkwood@173-10-106-172-BusName-Washington.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:12:05 -!- b1rkh0ff [~b1rkh0ff@178.77.1.200] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:16:44 edgar-rft [~GOD@HSI-KBW-091-089-005-041.hsi2.kabelbw.de] has joined #lisp 00:17:15 -!- univyrse|spaghet [~univyrse@71-82-19-203.static.mtgm.al.charter.com] has left #lisp 00:22:14 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:22:18 -!- Joreji [~thomas@72-228.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:22:31 -!- Corvidium [~cosman246@D-69-91-156-67.dhcp4.washington.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:22:52 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@84-72-21-32.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:23:36 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-185-82-146.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:25:29 dnolen [~user@cpe-74-64-61-245.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:25:54 Does anyone have a few minutes to chat about bootstrapping a new CL compiler that has a built in interpreter. I'm having some serious cyclic dependencies issues and I think I see the way out but I'm not sure. 00:29:03 -!- MrWoohoo [~MrWoohoo@pool-173-67-109-10.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]] 00:30:07 -!- karupanerura [~karupaner@www5325uf.sakura.ne.jp] has quit [Excess Flood] 00:30:38 -!- hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@46.233.214.106] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:32:38 karupanerura [~karupaner@www5325uf.sakura.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 00:34:42 hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@46.233.214.106] has joined #lisp 00:36:09 vlion_ [~vlion@66-87-112-75.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 00:36:09 yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.169] has joined #lisp 00:36:19 -!- huangjs [~huangjs@67-42-84-147.tukw.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 00:38:37 -!- natechan [~natechan@50-192-61-46-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]] 00:43:01 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 00:50:42 groovy2shoes [~cory@unaffiliated/groovebot] has joined #lisp 00:50:58 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@50.1.48.145] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 00:51:56 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@50.1.48.145] has joined #lisp 00:52:32 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@50.1.48.145] has quit [Client Quit] 00:53:02 stopbit [~stopbit@c-68-50-168-116.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:58:19 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@71.237.234.93] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:58:36 -!- vlion_ [~vlion@66-87-112-75.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi] 00:58:48 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-71-237-234-93.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:59:29 vlion_ [~vlion@66-87-112-75.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 01:02:22 -!- KingsKnighted [~quassel@c-174-52-149-13.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:03:49 leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has joined #lisp 01:04:54 -!- snits [~snits@inet-hqmc02-o.oracle.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:04:57 cfy [~ilisp@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 01:08:41 kofno [~kofno@cpe-24-165-210-251.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:09:06 honkfestival [~honkfesti@198-84-183-94.cpe.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 01:10:23 snits [~snits@174-17-112-107.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 01:10:47 stumbles [~stumbles@2001:44b8:41c5:9600:219:d1ff:fe10:f770] has joined #lisp 01:11:20 -!- hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@46.233.214.106] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:12:21 -!- JPeterson [~JPeterson@s213-103-211-58.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:12:41 -!- groovy2shoes [~cory@unaffiliated/groovebot] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 01:13:58 ebobby [~fms@189.170.52.145] has joined #lisp 01:14:32 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@91-157-48-10.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 01:15:45 -!- jeti` [~user@p548E963A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:18:10 on` [~on@88.Red-88-19-57.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 01:18:59 -!- CampinSam [~user@24-176-103-21.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 01:20:36 -!- Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:20:41 browndawg [~browndawg@117.201.90.225] has joined #lisp 01:21:28 -!- vlion_ [~vlion@66-87-112-75.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi] 01:21:30 CampinSam [~user@24-176-103-21.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has joined #lisp 01:23:19 -!- Houl [~Parmi@unaffiliated/houl] has quit [Quit: weil das Wetter so schön ist] 01:23:22 huangjs [~huangjs@67-42-84-147.tukw.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 01:25:08 vlion_ [~vlion@66-87-112-75.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 01:25:32 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 01:26:19 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:28:03 -!- [SLB] is now known as [SLB]` 01:29:43 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 01:29:59 Yuuhi```` [benni@p5483A0F4.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 01:31:45 JPeterson [~JPeterson@s213-103-211-58.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 01:32:15 -!- Yuuhi``` [benni@p5483A1A5.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:34:03 jeti` [~user@p548E963A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 01:34:11 LIST 01:34:24 ups, nope 01:37:44 hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@46.233.214.106] has joined #lisp 01:40:25 syamajala [~syamajala@c-75-68-106-118.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:41:06 -!- syamajala [~syamajala@c-75-68-106-118.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:41:20 -!- vlion_ [~vlion@66-87-112-75.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi] 01:41:20 syamajala [~syamajala@c-75-68-106-118.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:41:31 drewc: Hi 01:42:18 drmeister: hey, so what is the question exactly? 01:42:31 -!- syamajala [~syamajala@c-75-68-106-118.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 01:43:21 Ok, I'm doing a lot of development at the moment - I'm writing a Common Lisp compiler. 01:44:02 I'm interested in writing an interface to slime in short order and I'd like to get an idea of how difficult its going to be and what the CL side needs. 01:44:02 -!- dnolen [~user@cpe-74-64-61-245.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:44:14 nan_ [~user@178.233.216.230] has joined #lisp 01:44:33 I look in my .emacs.d/slime/swank-* files - is each swank-xxx file a stand alone swank implementation? 01:44:55 it's a backend for swank (which has defimplementation and so on) 01:45:18 you don't like sbcl? 01:45:41 why another compiler? 01:45:48 dnolen [~user@cpe-74-64-61-245.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:46:02 drmeister: also, there's a swank.asd right there. 01:46:11 -!- hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@46.233.214.106] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:46:52 on`: It's a long story. I wanted a CL implementation that I could interface easily with C++ code. Now I have one. 01:47:42 Or will as soon as I ferret out a few more bugs. 01:47:54 and you figure it is easier to create a new implementation then use the existing interfaces that work fine.... does your imp pass all the ANSI tests? 01:48:03 -!- dnolen [~user@cpe-74-64-61-245.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:48:23 -!- jeti` [~user@p548E963A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:48:24 ok, I understand 01:48:41 jeti` [~user@p548E963A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 01:49:40 drewc: It's compiling everything up to and including the LOOP macro definition. The last things I need are restart-case/handler-case and CLOS. I'm wrestling with cyclic dependencies right now. 01:49:40 or: before you integrate SLIME, does your new lisp actually work, and is compatible with common lisp 01:50:01 compiling that ansi test suite? 01:50:14 drmeister: well, it's one thing to have things with those names, quite another to pass a thorough test suite 01:50:15 that sounds like an awful lot of work just to interface with C++ code 01:50:15 and CLOS, what is the issue with CLOS? 01:50:34 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 01:51:09 *stassats* having found bugs and debugged pretty much any open source lisp implementations, the prospect of a new buggy one is scary 01:51:20 Bike: Yes, I know. But I have implemented all but three of the special forms both in an interpreter and in a compiler. 01:51:36 and of course, compile is 1/100 of the way there. 01:51:47 what about, like. the hundreds of functions. 01:51:49 if even that much 01:52:35 drewc: CLOS requires LOOP - LOOP requires TYPECASE - TYPECASE requires RESTART-BIND - RESTART-BIND requires CLOS. Around and around and around it goes. 01:52:46 *drewc* is guessing that drmeister is not a programmer and has no idea what they are 'up against' ... 01:52:55 i think currently writing a new CL implementation is akin to madness 01:52:58 Bike: Most of the hundreds of functions are written in Common Lisp. 01:53:05 now, forking an existing is much preferable 01:53:15 drmeister: Common Lisp requires all of those. 01:53:26 especially since there are all kinds of flavors, fast, small, C, Java 01:53:30 Is this #lisp or #psychoanalysis? 01:53:31 that work, together, and also there is a standard.. 01:53:32 CLOS requires LOOP, what? 01:53:47 vlion_ [~vlion@66-87-112-75.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 01:54:15 Bike: not really? 01:54:40 Bike: The implementation that I'm using uses LOOP. 01:54:51 fisxoj [~fisxoj@c-24-12-190-29.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:55:01 unless you mean LOOPS, Lisp Object-Oriented Programming System 01:55:04 drmeister: this is #lisp, for lisp programmers. #no-psychos-allowed-plz 01:55:25 and i'm not sure why you'd need restart-bind for typecase. ctypecase, yes 01:55:35 Common lisp is like an onion. You implement the special operators and some of the basic types and then you start loading modules that add more and more functionality to the language. The outer layer of the onion is CLOS. 01:56:03 drewc: The LOOP macro. 01:56:33 You also don't need CLOS for restart-bind 01:57:05 can someone help me understand how to use macrolet properly? I'm trying to do something like cl-who's with-html-output macro, but I don't know what I need to do so my macrolet macros will work when evaluated 01:57:15 good examples appreciated 01:57:21 especially since iirc what a restart is is very implementation-dependent 01:57:41 -!- jeti` [~user@p548E963A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:57:55 fisxoj: what don't you understand? 01:58:00 jeti` [~user@p548E963A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 01:58:05 Bike: Some of these dependencies are due to functions existing in the same source file. I don't want to spend too much time teasing the code apart. 01:58:15 fisxoj: i don't think cl-who is using macrolet 01:58:48 it walks the forms and picks out tags 01:59:01 Bike, my macrolet body is passing data forms to a function, and inside those data form might be a call to one of the macrolets... It makes sense to me that I'm doing it wrong, w/ lexical scope and whatnot, but I don't know how to fix it 01:59:19 stassats, I'm reading cl-who's code. It may also pick out tags, but it does have a macrolet 01:59:33 perhaps that's why it works and mine doesn't 01:59:34 drmeister: so, you know nothing about the lisp you are trying to implement at all, and think it is related to an onion?... the standard did come out, and generally, common lisps try to follow the standard ANSI Common Lisp. For example (class-of nil) ... or for example chapter 7? before hash tables comes classes? 02:00:04 before symbols for that matter lol :) 02:00:10 drewc: Know nothing? Much of it is burned into my retinas. 02:00:24 knowing != understanding 02:01:00 fisxoj: passing forms? does the function called evaluate them? if so obviously they'll be outside the lexical scope of the macrolet 02:01:13 fisxoj: consider pasting your code 02:01:23 Bike, yes, I understand that. My problem is I don't know how to avoid it. 02:01:45 drmeister: ahh ... my bad. then you know much ado about nothing ;) 02:01:48 fisxoj: well, i'd reconsider passing forms, to start with, but without context there's not much for me to say 02:02:26 adelgado [~TomSawyer@c-66-229-185-165.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:03:15 Bike, stassats: I understand I haven't given you much to work on, I'll try something, and if they doesn't work, I'll come back with something to paste. Right now there's nothing that makes sense to show, thanks. 02:03:18 -!- vlion_ [~vlion@66-87-112-75.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi] 02:03:49 drmeister: regardless of anything about positions in files, I don't understand why your typecase would need restart-bind (I mean you can just expand into cond with typeps), or why your clos would need loop (you could use dolist or tagbody or whatever), or why your restart-bind would require clos (I don't understand how you'd even get that) 02:04:45 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@217.17.38.43] has quit [Quit: leaving] 02:05:08 anyone else using SLIME through quicklisp/slime-helper.el AND installed quicklisp not on "~/quicklisp/" but somewhere else? i'd like to know how you pull it off without modifying slime-helper.el 02:05:56 isn't slime-helper generated? 02:06:26 i think so but directory is hardcoded 02:06:35 -!- Keshi [~Keshi@unaffiliated/keshi] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 02:06:51 Bike: I just checked and TYPECASE doesn't require RESTART-BIND. TYPECASE is in the assert.lsp file (ECL source) which contains CCASE which calls CCASE-ERROR which uses RESTART-CASE. I misspoke. 02:07:00 phax [~pavi@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 02:07:01 nan_: doesn't appear so 02:07:43 stassats: i get (expand-file-name "~/quicklisp/") at line 9 yet everything else working 02:07:58 i have no other problems with quicklisp for example 02:08:11 -!- jeti` [~user@p548E963A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:08:30 jeti` [~user@p548E963A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 02:08:54 try reading line 7 and line 8 also 02:08:54 drmeister: i mean, it's important to separate out conceptual dependencies from just things like that. nothing in CLOS actually conceptually requires LOOP and you could probably even write it without it fairly easily. Actual conceptual metacircularities, like say generic function invocation, are going to be much harder to close. 02:09:11 drmeister: "All I Know is that I Don't Know Nothing!" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HtUnubXAO4 :D 02:10:27 warex [c99d1fcf@gateway/web/freenode/ip.201.157.31.207] has joined #lisp 02:10:28 stassats: right, i am an idiot << 02:10:42 -!- stumbles [~stumbles@2001:44b8:41c5:9600:219:d1ff:fe10:f770] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:11:13 Bike: That's true - to implement CL you need to implement the special operators and some of the types and a few low level functions. The rest can and is written in Common Lisp. 02:11:36 I start hunchentoot as "(hunchentoot:start (make-instance 'hunchentoot:easy-acceptor :port 4242))", but after I quit clisp the web server still runs. How do I stop it? 02:11:38 Bike: (class-of (find-class 'standard-class)) still makes me think 02:11:59 warex: are you sure about that? 02:12:11 Sorry I meant to address that to drew. 02:12:22 hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@46.233.214.106] has joined #lisp 02:12:41 drmeister: it's a nice theory, but if my looking through implementation source (not quite wizard level enough to patch yet) is any indication it's not easily borne out in practice. (for example i find cmucl/sbcl/ccl's pseudo-generic-functions in the type system pretty interesting) 02:12:57 stassats: pretty sure, as I have tested also in another client machine 02:13:00 drewc: it took me way too long to straighten out "instance of" and "subclass of" in my head for the hierarchy. 02:13:21 and yet, it takes dedicated individuals at least 10 years to get a CL implementation into a reasonable shape 02:13:33 warex: are you sure it's not coming from browser cache? 02:13:59 -!- nan_ [~user@178.233.216.230] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:14:26 stassats: the reasonable shape I need is a lot less than that. 02:14:52 -!- CrazyEddy [~oxybutyri@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 02:15:17 prxq_ [~mommer@mnhm-590c3c47.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 02:15:43 Bike: interesting that you said that ... I never had an issue, but it seems that is fairly common, so I may simply be an oddball in that sense. And I guess I was not that familiar with whatever non-smalltalkers call Object Oriented Programming, so CLOS may have been my first 'intro' as such. I suppose. 02:16:03 dnolen [~user@cpe-74-64-61-245.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:16:08 drewc: it is of course possible that i'm just slow! 02:16:15 -!- adelgado [~TomSawyer@c-66-229-185-165.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:16:17 nan_ [~user@178.233.216.230] has joined #lisp 02:16:29 you're on a bike, you should be fast! 02:16:35 Bike: true, but moores law states that your speed will double in 18 months! 02:16:47 heh 02:17:19 pretty pretty sure 02:17:48 warex: so, then it means that you didn't quit clisp 02:17:59 whois on` 02:18:05 -!- hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@46.233.214.106] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:18:22 whoami is shorter! 02:18:26 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-590c177a.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:18:30 (this hands full of fingers..) 02:19:45 -!- jeti` [~user@p548E963A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:20:06 jeti` [~user@p548E963A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 02:21:06 -!- DataLinkDroid 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has joined #lisp 04:55:52 -!- antonv [5d7d31f9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.49.249] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:57:37 -!- jeti` [~user@p548E963A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 05:03:18 -!- huangjs [~huangjs@67-42-84-147.tukw.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 05:04:09 -!- newcup [newcup@peruna.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:07:38 -!- toekutr [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has left #lisp 05:09:12 wheelsucker [~wheelsuck@ip68-8-180-107.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 05:11:41 nan_ [~user@178.233.216.230] has joined #lisp 05:14:47 -!- stopbit [~stopbit@c-68-50-168-116.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:14:54 hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@94.137.56.141] has joined #lisp 05:19:04 -!- hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@94.137.56.141] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:21:49 -!- wheelsucker [~wheelsuck@ip68-8-180-107.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:22:55 -!- Jubb [~ghost@pool-108-28-62-61.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:23:29 two- [~1@c-67-171-131-23.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:24:40 -!- two- [~1@c-67-171-131-23.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 05:24:41 is there any cl-library using cffi-grovel? could use some examples. 05:25:01 _veer [~veer@pool-173-65-234-164.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:25:01 -!- _veer [~veer@pool-173-65-234-164.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 05:25:01 _veer [~veer@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 05:25:21 -!- cataska [~user@210.64.6.233] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:25:35 -!- Thra11 [~thrall@87.115.6.31] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 05:25:42 cataska` [~user@210.64.6.233] has joined #lisp 05:26:01 gigamonkey [~textual@50.1.48.145] has joined #lisp 05:27:05 -!- bananagram [~bot@c-98-198-236-112.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:29:00 -!- ebobby 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[Quit: Leaving] 06:15:15 hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@94.137.56.141] has joined #lisp 06:15:56 kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 06:16:59 jdz: do you have any plans to make the changes in the parse-mime-change branch of rfc2388 into a release? 06:19:40 nan_: check http://code.google.com/p/cl-mpi/ 06:19:53 -!- tps_ [~tps_@hoasb-50dd08-36.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Quit: tps_] 06:19:53 -!- hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@94.137.56.141] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 06:20:51 cfy [~ilisp@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 06:28:36 Codynyx [~cody@173-23-103-44.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 06:29:04 -!- browndawg [~browndawg@117.201.90.225] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:29:05 -!- francisl [~flavoie@bas6-montreal45-1176365728.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: francisl] 06:30:48 pegu: thanks, i found other libraries, still couldn't find what i was looking for, i was expecting with grovel i could do things ilke (include "../path/file"). looks like i have to generate the pathnames 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joined #lisp 07:59:39 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 08:00:50 -!- huangjs [~huangjs@67-42-84-147.tukw.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 08:02:33 shifty [~user@114-198-33-177.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 08:04:50 prxq [~mommer@mnhm-590c3c47.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 08:07:12 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 08:07:41 -!- zacts [~user@unaffiliated/lcc] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:09:34 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.56.105] has joined #lisp 08:09:34 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.56.105] has quit [Changing host] 08:09:34 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 08:10:04 -!- robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 08:10:24 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 08:10:24 phew, there's a lot of concurrency libraries for CL nowadays! guess I'll start 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Quit] 09:29:48 -!- cfdm [~user@116.126.96.33] has left #lisp 09:30:48 leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.66] has joined #lisp 09:31:43 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.66] has quit [Client Quit] 09:32:01 leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.66] has joined #lisp 09:32:23 carlo5m [~carlo5m@c-71-198-252-62.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:32:28 spearalot [~spearalot@194.218.229.107] has joined #lisp 09:32:40 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.66] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:35:03 przl [~przlrkt@46.231.183.162] has joined #lisp 09:38:00 leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.66] has joined #lisp 09:39:08 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.66] has quit [Client Quit] 09:39:22 leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.66] has joined #lisp 09:40:15 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.66] has quit [Client Quit] 09:41:51 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@84-72-21-32.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:42:20 leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.66] has joined #lisp 09:43:56 -!- spearalot [~spearalot@194.218.229.107] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:44:13 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joined #lisp 09:54:16 morphling [~stefan@gssn-4d003c6d.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 09:55:22 Joreji [~thomas@72-228.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 09:55:41 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.66] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:56:00 -!- yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.169] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:00:58 -!- CrazyEddy [~stupratio@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Quit: Reconnecting] 10:01:58 dbushenko [~dim@ec2-54-242-175-166.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has joined #lisp 10:02:07 merk_ [~merk@31.45.161.111] has joined #lisp 10:03:20 Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 10:05:07 CrazyEddy [~unadmitta@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 10:08:49 yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.169] has joined #lisp 10:09:26 leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.66] has joined #lisp 10:10:09 -!- dbushenko [~dim@ec2-54-242-175-166.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:10:46 -!- spearalot [~spearalot@194.218.229.107] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:10:53 -!- Joreji [~thomas@72-228.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:11:55 dbushenko [~dim@ec2-54-242-175-166.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has joined #lisp 10:12:44 spearalot [~spearalot@194.218.229.107] has joined #lisp 10:13:53 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:13:55 -!- yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.169] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:17:39 -!- cfy [~ilisp@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:19:08 yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.169] has joined #lisp 10:19:11 -!- levabalkin [~levabalki@89.46.143.44] has quit [Quit: leaving] 10:21:43 *p_l* ponders use of hybrid GC/refcounting with CL 10:23:31 -!- jack_rabbit [~kyle@c-98-253-60-75.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 10:29:17 -!- theBlackDragon [~dragon@213.219.153.37.adsl.dyn.edpnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 10:35:02 Keshi [~Keshi@unaffiliated/keshi] has joined #lisp 10:36:34 -!- ivan\ [~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:37:34 Kenjin [~kenjin@bl6-50-240.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 10:37:39 jack_rabbit [~kyle@c-98-253-60-75.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:42:39 ivan\ [~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001] has joined #lisp 10:43:43 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-4d003c6d.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 10:45:51 kofno [~kofno@cpe-24-165-210-251.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 10:46:45 -!- spearalot [~spearalot@194.218.229.107] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:47:11 nostoi [~nostoi@220.Red-79-154-133.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 10:48:32 spearalot [~spearalot@194.218.229.107] has joined #lisp 10:50:11 pavelpenev [~quassel@85-130-11-8.2073813645.shumen.cablebg.net] has joined #lisp 10:50:16 -!- nostoi [~nostoi@220.Red-79-154-133.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Client Quit] 10:53:03 -!- kofno [~kofno@cpe-24-165-210-251.neo.res.rr.com] has quit 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timeout: 245 seconds] 11:10:48 ISF [~ivan@189.61.220.247] has joined #lisp 11:13:03 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:13:59 leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.66] has joined #lisp 11:16:45 -!- knob [~knob@adsl-173-228-245-30.prtc.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:21:45 -!- dbushenko [~dim@ec2-54-242-175-166.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:22:09 -!- jeti` [~user@p548E963A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 11:28:35 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 11:29:06 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Client Quit] 11:29:36 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-78-101.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:29:36 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 11:31:12 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-37-3.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 11:34:08 cfy 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quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 12:19:42 -!- Adlai_ [~user@cpe-24-90-194-156.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:21:32 Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 12:27:17 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.66] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.2.92.1] 12:27:27 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@78-1-150-210.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:28:34 hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@178.74.114.239] has joined #lisp 12:29:35 -!- przl [~przlrkt@46.231.183.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 12:29:54 kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-122-99.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 12:36:41 madrik [~user@122.168.171.65] has joined #lisp 12:37:40 theBlackDragon [~dragon@213.219.153.37.adsl.dyn.edpnet.net] has joined #lisp 12:38:16 -!- spearalot [~spearalot@194.218.229.107] has quit [Quit: leaving] 12:40:36 -!- browndawg [~browndawg@117.201.90.225] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:40:37 -!- green_ [~green@dsl-207-112-125-99.tor.primus.ca] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:42:13 kofno [~kofno@cpe-24-165-210-251.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:42:34 -!- kofno [~kofno@cpe-24-165-210-251.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:42:54 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 12:43:14 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-kndgpuhagavxkdmt] has joined #lisp 12:43:14 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-kndgpuhagavxkdmt] has quit [Changing host] 12:43:14 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 12:43:19 foreignFunction [~niksaak@94.27.88.162] has joined #lisp 12:44:06 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:44:31 yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.169] has joined #lisp 12:44:52 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 12:46:45 -!- nikodem [~nikodem@user-46-112-36-111.play-internet.pl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:46:57 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:47:09 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:47:17 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 12:47:34 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 12:47:54 anyone for http://planet.lisp.org/rss20.xml? "rss20.xml:335: parser error : Entity 'aacute' not defined" 12:52:24 asvil [~user@91.151.182.61] has joined #lisp 12:52:56 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-37-3.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 12:53:12 -!- Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:53:40 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-37-3.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 12:55:59 przl [~przlrkt@46.231.183.162] has joined #lisp 12:56:56 -!- kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 12:58:54 `fogus [~fogus@freedom.d-a-s.com] has joined #lisp 13:00:12 -!- stardiviner [~stardivin@218.74.182.67] has quit [Quit: my website: http://stardiviner.dyndns-blog.com/] 13:00:17 doomlord [~doomlod@host86-162-165-225.range86-162.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 13:04:05 carlo5m [~carlo5m@c-71-198-252-62.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:05:29 kofno [~kofno@cpe-24-165-210-251.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:07:10 Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 13:07:14 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:07:43 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 13:09:42 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-37-3.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:10:05 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-37-3.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 13:12:01 -!- `fogus [~fogus@freedom.d-a-s.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:12:48 -!- carlo5m [~carlo5m@c-71-198-252-62.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:13:11 Roscoe [~user@114-37-176-40.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 13:18:05 -!- yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.169] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 13:20:09 gravicappa [~gravicapp@h94-75-39-95.dyn.bashtel.ru] has joined #lisp 13:20:28 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 13:23:36 `fogus [~fogus@freedom.d-a-s.com] has joined #lisp 13:24:36 nikodem [~mikey@user-164-127-206-187.play-internet.pl] has joined #lisp 13:25:57 -!- elixey [~eilyx@gateway/tor-sasl/eilyx] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:27:01 yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.169] has joined #lisp 13:38:26 browndawg [~browndawg@117.201.90.225] has joined #lisp 13:40:30 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:42:35 -!- cfy [~ilisp@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:43:01 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 13:43:08 cfy` [~ilisp@115.195.182.176] has joined #lisp 13:45:09 -!- cfy` is now known as cfy 13:45:10 -!- cfy [~ilisp@115.195.182.176] has quit [Changing host] 13:45:10 cfy [~ilisp@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 13:47:19 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:47:21 -!- leoncamel [~leoncamel@124.126.215.51] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.9.2] 13:47:43 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 13:50:05 -!- nikodem [~mikey@user-164-127-206-187.play-internet.pl] has quit [Quit: leaving] 13:50:14 newcup [newcup@peruna.fi] has joined #lisp 13:51:19 I'm looking for a proper adjective for the difference between a programmer with and one without a mathematical foundation in computing. I've come up with skilled, enlightened, sophisticated, educated. Does anyone know of a better word? 13:52:33 nikodem [~mikey@user-46-112-36-111.play-internet.pl] has joined #lisp 13:52:36 hkBst: "academic" 13:52:54 I agree with H4ns 13:53:43 The suggested words leads me to believe that hkBst is a troll though 13:54:01 "programming" vs "computer science"? 13:54:05 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 13:54:20 *H4ns* regrets to have responded at all 13:54:47 -!- cfy [~ilisp@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Quit: ] 13:54:59 hkBst: programmer and coder respectively 13:55:35 "possibly better in specific fields" has a chance of being accurate 13:55:45 oh, adjective 13:55:48 so 13:55:50 "real" 13:56:13 :-) 13:57:02 loke: :( no troll, but trolling for an adjective, yes. This is for a text that should convince my boss that programmer selection matters (a lot). 13:57:38 -!- nikodem [~mikey@user-46-112-36-111.play-internet.pl] has quit [Quit: leaving] 13:57:46 hkBst: well, if you're looking for competent programmers, looking at their academic background is one of the less useful factors to take into account. 13:57:55 I would suggest that you should argue about productivity for the job that needs doing 13:58:14 if what needs doing requires mathematical foundation to the exclusion of all else, then go with "productive" 13:58:35 if what needs doing is helped by mathematical foundation, maybe go with "usefully knowledgeable" 13:58:42 Attending a job interview for Google is a good way of learning how to hire good programmers. I failed my interview (as does most people), but I'm significantly better at hiring now. They gave me some really good ideas. 13:58:46 Programming involves more empirical study, than just logical reasoning, so find one who is more into statistics, than say, category theory :) 13:58:48 loke: I don't care where or when they learned stuff, but my preposition IS that there is a knowledge difference. I could be wrong... 13:58:51 "we should only hire productive programmers!" "no really?" 13:59:19 it's at least honest 13:59:50 (I don't think google's style is a good way to hire good programmers. I think it is a pretty good way to avoid hiring poor programmers) 13:59:52 -!- varjagg [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:00:10 Krystof: Hmm... Good point 14:00:19 leoncamel [~leoncamel@124.126.215.51] has joined #lisp 14:00:28 varjagg [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 14:00:42 Krystof: Google does have the luxury of being able to afford dropping good programmers since they such a large selection to choose from 14:00:45 more specifically I want to make a convincing point of not contracting any more php web developers... 14:01:04 -!- varjagg [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has left #lisp 14:01:18 Krystof: I really enjoyed their interviews though, and I've used a lot of the same style of questions when I've interviewed people and it does work quite well. 14:01:45 hkBst: there is a knowledge difference, but that goes in a lot of directions. 14:02:31 prxq: you mean not just mathematical foundations, but also other knowledge? 14:02:43 at our company, we've given HR a list of things that immediately disqualifies people :-) 14:02:51 that is, being able to code a FE solver does not mean that you are better at database stuff, for example. At least not without learning it separately. 14:03:53 hkBst: no, just that such programmers may have their own set of blind spots. 14:04:33 hkBst: and, using such a terminology as you proposed is going to cause trouble :-) 14:05:49 nikodem [~mikey@user-164-127-206-187.play-internet.pl] has joined #lisp 14:05:58 hkBst: perhaps you mean foundations and not necessarily high tech stuff. 14:06:41 hkBst: still at IAEA ? 14:07:13 prxq: my view is that there are programmers who are like technician and programmers who are like engineers, but in software development everyone beyond minimum skill level calls themself programmer, software engineer, whatever. Technicians and engineers are both knowledgeable, but engineers' knowledge goes deeper. And in software there are programmers who aren't even as knowledgeable as to be at technician level. Does that make sense? 14:07:26 fe[nl]ix: yes, at least for a bit :) 14:08:41 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 14:09:12 carlo5m [~carlo5m@c-71-198-252-62.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:09:43 hkBst: yes. But part of the problem is that the words that should be used have been stripped of their meaning. Perhaps just that last description of yours is enough. 14:10:08 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 14:10:38 prxq: I mean stuff like big-O notation, lambda calculus, grammars, parsers, data structures, algorithms, ... 14:11:23 -!- asvil [~user@91.151.182.61] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:11:46 hkBst: "Zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance" describes two types of welders, those that feel more comfortable doing the same thing over and over, and those that prefer to always do new things, both are necessary in different situations and are not interchangeable. In tech, we need both people with deep and with broad knowledge. 14:12:33 pavelpenev: i think lisp is dominated by the side that tries new things 14:13:52 prxq: hmm, so you like the technician/engineer analogy? I'd been steering away from it, because it is descriptive, but not reasoned. I say so, instead of an explanation. 14:14:19 segv- [~mb@dslb-088-075-131-174.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 14:14:19 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:14:21 madnificent: lispers probably also have to be more generalists, because you can afford to be a specialist in teams, but in a smaller team you have to do a lot your self. Or maybe I'm full of shit. Either way, I have no data. 14:14:23 fe[nl]ix: what about you? Where are you at these days? 14:14:42 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:15:04 hkBst: quickable.com 14:16:15 the server runs on SBCL 14:16:39 H4ns: I think academic puts too much emphasis on where certain knowledge might have been acquired. 14:17:10 loke: could I get a look at the disqualification list you have? 14:17:57 -!- carlo5m [~carlo5m@c-71-198-252-62.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:18:26 vityok` [~user@193.109.118.129] has joined #lisp 14:19:24 hkBst: I can't really. It's a list of questions that at the very least they should be able to answer. Some of them are very obvious, like expecting a C programmer to know the difference between int *x and int x; 14:19:26 fe[nl]ix: hunchentoot? 14:19:33 yes 14:19:49 fe[nl]ix: that site is like a poke in the eye though 14:20:10 in what sense ? 14:20:10 pavelpenev: could be 14:20:19 fe[nl]ix: it's so busy 14:20:35 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:21:09 -!- vityok [~user@193.109.118.129] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 14:21:12 -!- edgar-rft [~GOD@HSI-KBW-091-089-005-041.hsi2.kabelbw.de] has quit [Quit: brain damage] 14:21:53 we concentrate on the mobile apps, the website is not that important 14:21:57 loke: and your HR is able to judge their answer? 14:22:15 concerning web development, I sometimes presented candidates with small code snippet with obvious SQL injection and/or XSS. Not seeing it = nothing to talk about. (luckily I didn't have a chance to talk to such candidates for a while) 14:22:25 hkBst: we get a copy of their answers 14:23:05 hkBst: basically, the candidate comes in for a HR interview, and does a written test. We don't meet the candidate at that time 14:23:41 hkBst: saves us a lot of time, since we can weed out a lot of incompetents without wasting anyone's but HR's time. 14:24:06 what about phone screens? 14:24:21 p_l: ?? 14:25:01 fe[nl]ix: you organize a phone call with aspiring programmer, and have a bit of Q&A, maybe some "how would you..." 14:25:24 stardiviner [~stardivin@122.236.241.233] has joined #lisp 14:25:29 morphling [~stefan@77.0.60.109] has joined #lisp 14:25:52 ooh 14:26:07 "screens" in that sense 14:26:17 while I wouldn't advocate porting *all* of Googles' approach, bits and pieces are useful 14:26:19 maybe "screenings" would be more appropriate 14:26:21 :D 14:26:55 fe[nl]ix: "screening" would be the action done to list of interviewed people ;) 14:27:21 loke: that seems like a very good idea. Unfortunately I do not have the experience required to develop such a list. 14:27:48 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-37-3.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:28:03 -!- ignas [~ignas@office.pov.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:28:48 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 14:29:28 so if I may bring the discussion back to its beginning. Given a person with a social science phd and a couple months Visual Basic course (+ certificate) and a well-rounded lisper both calling themselves programmers. Which one word would describe their difference best? 14:29:31 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-66-187.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 14:31:28 hkBst: a "well rounded lisper" as 10 years of lisp programming experience 14:31:43 hkBst: that does not automatically make him a good programmer, though. 14:32:57 H4ns: so your preferred terms are good programmer and bad programmer (?) 14:33:22 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:33:38 H4ns: or what does make a good programmer in your view? 14:37:38 -!- przl [~przlrkt@46.231.183.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:41:07 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 14:41:09 przl [~przlrkt@46.231.183.162] has joined #lisp 14:42:33 hiato [~nine@41-135-76-179.dsl.mweb.co.za] has joined #lisp 14:43:45 -!- Ralt [~Ralt@eup38-1-82-247-184-72.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:43:48 -!- bniels [~niels@p4FD6E564.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:44:03 adelgado [~TomSawyer@65.23.61.98.nw.nuvox.net] has joined #lisp 14:44:30 -!- foom [jknight@nat/google/x-rftlhgiukgbqmaiq] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:45:29 zolk3ri [~zolk3ri@unaffiliated/zolk3ri] has joined #lisp 14:45:51 Ralt [~Ralt@eup38-1-82-247-184-72.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 14:47:34 francisl [~flavoie@199.84.164.114] has joined #lisp 14:48:08 Krystof_ [~user@81.174.155.115] has joined #lisp 14:48:32 -!- svetlyak40wt [~svetlyak4@2a02:6b8:0:101:7ca4:82a3:43fa:abc9] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:49:31 -!- Krystof [~user@81.174.155.115] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:52:20 dnolen [~user@cpe-74-64-61-245.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:59:11 hkBst: interest in programming (as opposed to doing it for money), and then experience 15:00:40 natechan [~natechan@50-192-61-46-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 15:00:48 good programmers can do complex programming tasks without being thoroughly programmed first. 15:01:07 -!- bhyde [~bhyde@c-98-216-109-61.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #lisp 15:04:18 from my perspective: I can save time by delegating tasks to good programmers. If I delegate tasks to bad programmers, I'll have to explain a lot to them, then rewrite or thoroughly refactor their code (perhaps writing the code myself is quicker in such cases) 15:06:29 knobo [~bohmer@ti0125a380-0510.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 15:08:02 fper [~user@100.Red-83-32-11.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 15:08:59 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-165-77.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 15:09:53 urandom__ [~user@ip-37-24-113-153.unitymediagroup.de] has joined #lisp 15:10:27 -!- TristamWrk [~tristamwr@bodhilinux/team/Tristam] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:11:58 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:12:56 -!- blandest [~user@ip4-85-204-33-242.euroweb.ro] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:13:53 is there any valid alternative other than 5am for unit testing ? 15:14:03 tps_ [~tps_@hoasb-50dd08-36.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 15:14:04 kiuma: loads. 15:14:11 thanks 15:14:15 carlo5m [~carlo5m@c-71-198-252-62.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:14:23 kiuma: any problem with fiveam ? 15:14:36 hello fe[nl]ix, yes 15:15:03 -!- sirdancealot [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:15:18 when I run tests two times I have ecore_timer.c:645 _ecore_timer_cleanup() 1 timers to delete, but they were not found!Stats: todo=1, done=0, pending=1, in_use=0. reset counter. 15:15:19 ERR<14101>:ecore ecore_timer.c:645 _ecore_timer_cleanup() 1 timers to delete, but they were not found!Stats: todo=1, done=0, pending=1, in_use=0. reset counter. 15:15:19 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:15:42 but if I manually run the test code in repl I've no problem 15:15:43 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:15:56 please paste the code 15:16:18 then after a while I've a misterious SIGUSR2 signla that kicks me out 15:16:56 -!- Kenjin [~kenjin@bl6-50-240.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:17:14 code is online at https://github.com/kiuma/CL-ECORE and I'm testing cl-ecore-con 15:18:00 I call two times (5am:run! :ecore-con) and the second time I've the error above 15:18:56 hitecnologys1 [~hitecnolo@46.233.249.119] has joined #lisp 15:19:15 kiuma: does it matter in what order timer-reset and timer-pending are called? 15:19:35 (or any of the timer functions) 15:20:12 ohhh segv how much time :) !! No it should be handled by ecore main loop 15:21:10 you say it works if you run the code from the repl. if you just run the suite, without specifying any inter-test dependencies then it could be that things are getting called out or order. 15:21:36 TristamWrk [~tristamwr@gray-47.dynamic2.rpi.edu] has joined #lisp 15:21:36 -!- TristamWrk [~tristamwr@gray-47.dynamic2.rpi.edu] has quit [Changing host] 15:21:36 TristamWrk [~tristamwr@bodhilinux/team/Tristam] has joined #lisp 15:21:48 but i'm not sure that's your problem. 15:21:58 -!- hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@178.74.114.239] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 15:22:03 but the first time it works 15:22:27 I can even try to run only one thes... just to be sure 15:22:33 -!- carlo5m [~carlo5m@c-71-198-252-62.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:23:17 https://github.com/kiuma/CL-ECORE/blob/master/tests/con/ecore-con-suite.lisp the test is this anyway 15:23:19 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-66-187.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:23:33 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-66-187.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:25:33 -!- jack_rabbit [~kyle@c-98-253-60-75.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:25:39 stopbit [~stopbit@static-108-48-124-82.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:26:57 hiteki [~user@2a01:e35:2ed9:5530:211:24ff:febf:9313] has joined #lisp 15:28:33 running one test only has the same effect ! 15:29:15 kiuma: are you using slime? how does ecore work with threads? 15:30:09 fantazo [~fantazo@213.129.230.10] has joined #lisp 15:31:09 pkhuong, yes I'm using it, but I think I'm not interferring with it. Anyway ecore doesn't support threads (it supports threads only in particular cases - that I've already implemented into the code) 15:31:31 ecore might not support threads, but slime uses them everywhere. 15:31:36 Sgeo [~Sgeo@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 15:32:09 pkhuong, even if I patently wait 5am tests result ? 15:32:28 -!- kilon [~user@unaffiliated/thekilon] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 15:32:42 kiuma: try starting sbcl in a terminal 15:32:46 and run the test suite 15:34:43 no, it's not slime :/ 15:35:58 test system and tests all from terminal and same result 15:37:11 and you said you can paste the test at the REPL twice and it works? Is that still true in ter terminal? 15:37:17 kiuma: i'm kind of thinking that the problem may be related to your use of the ffi rather than a problem in the unit testing framework. 15:40:03 -!- merk_ [~merk@31.45.161.111] has quit [Quit: merk_] 15:40:08 it could easily be, but why I can call (in-ecore-loop (con-lookup "localhost" (lambda () (print *lookup-info*) (ecore-loop-quit)))) avery time I want without that problem ? 15:40:23 Kenjin [~kenjin@bl6-50-240.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 15:40:39 kiuma: because that has a different heap access pattern than the test 15:40:56 mmm.... 15:41:41 -!- zolk3ri [~zolk3ri@unaffiliated/zolk3ri] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 15:42:26 -!- TristamWrk [~tristamwr@bodhilinux/team/Tristam] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:42:38 do you have any idea how that could happen? Where are timers created? Is your cleanup code correct? Are the -before and -after hash table always sane? Do things work better when you rebind these specials to fresh hash tables around each loop? 15:43:04 merk_ [~merk@31.45.161.111] has joined #lisp 15:44:30 con-lookup is completely broken. 15:44:40 why ? 15:44:59 findiggle [~kirkwood@173-10-106-172-BusName-Washington.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 15:45:59 because creating a new callback for each call isn't going to end well. 15:45:59 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:46:07 sounds to me like fiveam is doing its job pretty well! 15:46:09 kmels [~kmels@frbg-5d84f6dd.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 15:46:33 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:47:01 pkhuong, I feared it :/ 15:47:15 stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-239-101.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 15:48:05 -!- ISF [~ivan@189.61.220.247] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:48:20 eichelbart [~eichelbar@client193-133.wlan.hu-berlin.de] has joined #lisp 15:48:50 ISF [~ivan@189.61.220.247] has joined #lisp 15:48:59 see, when you pass a NULL data pointer and ignore it? That's how you should tell a global callback what closure to call. 15:49:15 I'll try to refactor it and see what happens 15:49:46 yes I was thinking to use that data pointer 15:50:57 thx for suggestions, I'll see what happens after the removal of all those crappy (fname (intern (symbol-name (gensym)))) 15:51:17 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:51:38 -!- Cymew [~user@fw01d.snowmen.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:52:08 -!- eichelbart [~eichelbar@client193-133.wlan.hu-berlin.de] has quit [Client Quit] 15:52:09 92AAB0P69 [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 15:52:16 I notice that your manual test and the 5am test case aren't exactly the same. What happens if they are? Can you reduce the 5am test case while still failing? What if you call a dummy con-lookup always passes the same callback? What happens if you don't even con-lookup? 15:52:52 TristamWrk [~tristamwr@gray-47.dynamic2.rpi.edu] has joined #lisp 15:52:52 -!- TristamWrk [~tristamwr@gray-47.dynamic2.rpi.edu] has quit [Changing host] 15:52:52 TristamWrk [~tristamwr@bodhilinux/team/Tristam] has joined #lisp 15:53:13 -!- foreignFunction [~niksaak@94.27.88.162] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:53:26 -!- sirdancealot1 [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:53:51 How is timer_cleanup called? Like segv asked, is this a timing issue, and the bug appears when you wait too long or not long enough between repetitions? Could it be an issue in your cleanup code that shows up in the subsequent run? 15:56:28 _d3f [~freedo@nl2.ovpn.to] has joined #lisp 15:56:33 there is no timer_cleanup 15:56:46 it is handled by ecore 15:57:20 foom [jknight@nat/google/x-khyosxarsisjcoxc] has joined #lisp 16:00:00 -!- 92AAB0P69 [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:00:25 -!- kmels [~kmels@frbg-5d84f6dd.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:00:44 carlo5m [~carlo5m@c-71-198-252-62.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:02:09 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 16:02:54 nilsi [~nilsi@c83-253-22-138.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 16:05:12 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 16:06:08 sirdancealot1 [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 16:07:55 -!- Krystof_ is now known as Krystof 16:08:04 -!- Kenjin [~kenjin@bl6-50-240.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:09:55 kiuma: well it's certainly getting called. 16:10:48 on ecore_main_loop_quit I think 16:11:46 -!- huangjs [~huangjs@67-42-84-147.tukw.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 16:12:15 -!- cryptic [~cryptic@pool-71-125-31-38.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:14:39 Guest54987 [~kenjin@bl6-50-240.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 16:17:12 pkhuong, maybe the problem is all with defcallback 16:17:43 -!- cdidd [~cdidd@128-72-39-50.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:18:21 I've created a callback (static) and then I've put it inside a 5am suite. (the problem seems to be solved) 16:18:22 -!- sirdancealot1 [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:18:26 ...I hope 16:19:30 I need a suggestion for the callback thing 16:19:53 -!- merk_ [~merk@31.45.161.111] has quit [Quit: merk_] 16:21:02 -!- hitecnologys1 [~hitecnolo@46.233.249.119] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:21:03 no next time :) 16:21:28 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@91-157-48-10.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:23:20 -!- loke [~elias@bb115-66-85-121.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:23:47 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-66-187.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:24:01 -!- carlo5m [~carlo5m@c-71-198-252-62.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:24:08 -!- TristamWrk [~tristamwr@bodhilinux/team/Tristam] has quit [Quit: Some days you're the pigeon, some days the statue...] 16:24:30 dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 16:24:36 cryptic [~cryptic@pool-71-125-31-38.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:24:59 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@h94-75-39-95.dyn.bashtel.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:25:17 green_ [green@nat/redhat/x-jvhogxkllllwasuh] has joined #lisp 16:25:51 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-66-166.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:26:00 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:26:27 peterhil [~peterhil@91-157-48-10.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 16:28:18 TristamWrk [~tristamwr@gray-47.dynamic2.rpi.edu] has joined #lisp 16:28:18 -!- TristamWrk [~tristamwr@gray-47.dynamic2.rpi.edu] has quit [Changing host] 16:28:18 TristamWrk [~tristamwr@bodhilinux/team/Tristam] has joined #lisp 16:29:30 ikki [~ikki@187.208.225.98] has joined #lisp 16:29:36 Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 16:34:59 -!- spacefrogg is now known as spacefrogg^ 16:36:52 -!- Tanami [~carnage@9ch.in] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:38:25 Urfin [~user@37.142.5.99] has joined #lisp 16:38:45 sirdancealot1 [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 16:39:31 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:39:41 -!- Urfin [~user@37.142.5.99] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:40:50 sogeking99 [~neil@5ac36d9f.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 16:40:57 kilon [~kilon@unaffiliated/thekilon] has joined #lisp 16:41:21 Hey guys, would you recommend lisp to a beginner at programming? What book/tutorial should I get? 16:42:16 sogeking99: There are free books online: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ 16:42:32 sogeking99: There is nothing in lisp that makes it more difficult to learn for beginners than any other popular language. http://cliki.net/ has all the relevant information 16:43:46 sogeking99: http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/ is good book for beginners. Check out also http://cliki.net/Online%20tutorial 16:43:56 Thanks guys. Im only learning as a hobby, but I'd like to make a roguelike eventually, is Lisp practical for this? 16:44:30 sogeking99: sure 16:44:43 -!- ikki [~ikki@187.208.225.98] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:45:49 sogeking99: In general, if you don't know any programming, the book I linked to is good, if you know some programming, start with the one linked by adelgado 16:47:30 Okay thanks. I've never programmed before but I learned about some things, like if/else statements, loops and variables when I did a bit of Actionscript in school 16:47:33 hitecnologys1 [~hitecnolo@46.233.249.119] has joined #lisp 16:47:45 I also purchased a copy of Land of Lisp. I find the knowledge in that book is in nice digestible chunks and would work for someone without a programming background, too. 16:48:03 pkhuong, I'd like to use the *data pointer to store the key of a hashtable of k: integer v: functions. since in lisp I've no problems on limits but I have in C. Should I transform the integer into a string when storing it into the *data pointer ? 16:48:14 is there a better way ? 16:48:29 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@213.129.230.10] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:48:32 sogeking99: So why did lisp interest you? 16:49:24 kiuma: if you know you won't have any integers larger than long long, you can use a long long otherwise, yes serialize to strings 16:49:35 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:49:41 -!- sirdancealot1 [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:50:02 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.194.253] has joined #lisp 16:50:21 -!- karswell [~user@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:50:25 pavelpenev, Well some people mentioned it on the learn programming subreddit. A few said it is too dated and will have limited support. But I liked the look of the syntax a bit for than python 16:50:31 jasom, no I don't know. (even if exceding long long seems to be a bit optimistic :) ) 16:50:48 pavelpenev, and most agreed Java would teach me bad habbits 16:51:25 karswell [~user@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 16:52:38 heh, "limited support" 16:52:47 sogeking99: Beginners have a tendency to over think things, especially when they wonder which language to learn. Start with lisp and WRITE code. No other way to learn. 16:53:30 sogeking99: yeah, my first language was gw-basic which probably teaches as many bad habits as Java, and it didn't do me (much) harm :) The important thing is to start writing. 16:54:39 Okay thanks guys 16:54:47 and read code :p 16:54:55 that is also highly important 16:55:28 sogeking99: i think some people are actually writing roguelikes in lisp; there's also #lispgames channel 16:55:28 jdz, memo from H4ns: do you have any plans to make the changes in the parse-mime-change branch of rfc2388 into a release? 16:56:54 oGMo, Okay will do. Will about 2 hours a day be okay to learn by the way? 16:57:07 jdz, cool thanks. 16:57:10 -!- hitecnologys1 [~hitecnolo@46.233.249.119] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:58:20 sogeking99: how long it takes you to learn is pretty dependent on you 16:58:31 -!- yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.169] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:58:59 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-66-166.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:59:22 Yeah, I sadly can't afford any more time than 2 hours a day, but I'm not exactly in a rush 16:59:25 sogeking99: 2 hours a day should be plenty if they are uninterrupted 16:59:27 -!- yrk [~user@pdpc/supporter/student/yrk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:00:07 sogeking99: getting interrupted a lot tends to be a killer, since you need to get a lot of new information in your head all at once for some of the epiphanies 17:00:36 sometimes it takes 20 minutes just to figure out where you left off yesterday 17:00:39 jasom, Yeah I can be a procrastinator at times but I will keep my focus on this. 17:01:43 yrk [~user@50.133.134.220] has joined #lisp 17:01:50 -!- yrk [~user@50.133.134.220] has quit [Changing host] 17:01:50 yrk [~user@pdpc/supporter/student/yrk] has joined #lisp 17:01:56 sogeking99: also, expect to be confused and frustrated most of the time. This is normal, this is how deep learning feels. Unpleasant, but when you see your code run, you instantly forget all the pain :) 17:02:01 arrdem [~arrdem@resnet-45-187.dorm.utexas.edu] has joined #lisp 17:02:05 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 17:02:38 sirdancealot1 [~sirdancea@88.100.82.98] has joined #lisp 17:02:41 that too .. never get frustrated by things not working like you expect .. figure out what you should be expecting ;) 17:02:45 sogeking99: though if you play roguelikes you're used to being confused and frustrated most of the time I imagine 17:02:54 5 years of learning and I'm still confused and frustrated, until I see the computer print the right response, then I'm filled with joy for the rest of the day :) 17:03:22 Okay sounds good :) I'm not very good at maths, do you think that will be a problem? 17:03:53 sogeking99: no, you can pick up relevant math as you need it(rarely). 17:03:59 doubtful unless you're writing something math-heavy :P 17:04:17 sogeking99: basic things they teach you in school should be enough. 17:04:22 Okay thanks again, I'll get started now actually. 17:04:22 sogeking99: you don't need much maths for programming, *but* a lot of people find it uses a similar part of the brain as algebra (since it is a form of abstract reasoning) 17:04:59 though, if you don't know simple stuff like bases and bitwise operations, you should really learn them 17:05:37 oGMo: I hacked for two years with python without knowing that. 17:06:02 -!- nilsi [~nilsi@c83-253-22-138.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:06:21 pavelpenev: yes, but aren't you glad you know now? =P i can't imagine doing much without some basic understanding of hex and binary at least 17:06:46 but really they should be teaching that stuff in gradeschool now next to arithmetic 17:06:56 -!- snits [~snits@174-17-112-107.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:07:19 *jasom* learned hex at the same time as assembly/machine code (it was for the purpose of defeating copy-protection in games) 17:07:33 oGMo: I'm glad I learned it. I'm glad I know what a ring and a group is, I'm glad I know how to find the area of a circle by integrating polar coordinates. You don't need to know all while learning :) 17:08:37 come to think of it, many programmers my age would likely not have learned all that low-level stuff if it weren't for copy protection. See, DRM is good! 17:08:42 snits [~snits@inet-hqmc04-o.oracle.com] has joined #lisp 17:09:10 pavelpenev: well sure, just adding it to the list of stuff _to_ learn if necessary ;) 17:09:19 *pavelpenev* is glad that even though his university sucks at teaching programming, at teaching math it's at least adequate 17:09:54 pavelpenev: which university? I went to Purdue and its theoretical CS stuff was great, but it's lab-based stuff mediocre 17:10:21 jasom: Shumen University in Bulgaria. 17:10:45 They did OK with imperative C++, functional and logic programming were a joke. 17:11:05 *jasom* didn't even have a class with functional or logic programming 17:11:48 we did have a lab where we had to write some constraint propagation code though 17:12:33 -!- knobo [~bohmer@ti0125a380-0510.bb.online.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:12:39 The extracurricular programming competition training "gatherings" were pretty useful for learning algorithms. 17:13:11 Of course I had 2 summer internships where I learned a lot of practical stuff 17:13:35 carlo5m [~carlo5m@209.49.100.67] has joined #lisp 17:14:25 The bright side of going to a mediocre school is that you can ace the exams and have a lot of free time for lisp hacking :) 17:14:31 -!- sogeking99 [~neil@5ac36d9f.bb.sky.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:20:00 AeroNotix 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22:17:49 -!- syamajala [~syamajala@c-75-68-106-118.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:19:00 -!- nikodem [~nikodem@user-164-127-206-187.play-internet.pl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:23:22 DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has joined #lisp 22:25:08 cdidd [~cdidd@93-80-71-9.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 22:25:11 -!- stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-239-101.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 22:28:26 -!- milanj [~milanj_@82.117.199.26] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:28:43 -!- tps_ [~tps_@hoasb-50dd08-36.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Quit: tps_] 22:32:34 -!- bitonic [~user@5e09a749.bb.sky.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:34:00 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@217.17.38.43] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:36:20 Keshi [~Keshi@unaffiliated/keshi] has joined #lisp 22:36:41 eichelbart [~eichelbar@91-65-63-57-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 22:37:06 francogrex [~user@109.134.227.146] has joined #lisp 22:37:17 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:37:27 bitonic [~user@5e09a749.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 22:37:32 worstadmin [~worst@174.141.213.39] has joined #lisp 22:37:35 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:37:56 -!- arrdem [~arrdem@resnet-45-187.dorm.utexas.edu] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 22:38:44 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@50.1.48.145] has joined #lisp 22:40:03 -!- eichelbart [~eichelbar@91-65-63-57-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Client Quit] 22:42:26 http://paste.lisp.org/display/134685 this fixnum values: 571473931 and 571473959 in sbcl are they nil and T on all x86 architectures ? 22:44:27 i would guess it's different depending on the arch's word size 22:46:56 eichelbart [~eichelbar@91-65-63-57-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 22:47:03 -!- brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-142-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:48:39 regardless, i'd be pretty surprised if the usual sbcl idiom was just to put literal integers in the source 22:48:40 *|3b|* would guess they aren't fixnums, and values depend on memory layout and possibly sbcl version 22:49:32 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:49:58 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 22:50:22 -!- kilon [~kilon@unaffiliated/thekilon] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:53:27 possibly not fixnums, anuway in the vop I exactly copy pasted the disassembly output and works the same with nil or t as outcome 22:53:52 nil seems to be 17825803 from glancing through disassemblies on my system. 22:54:04 impomatic [~digital_w@211.67.125.91.dyn.plus.net] has joined #lisp 22:54:38 hitecnologys1 [~hitecnolo@94.137.10.36] has joined #lisp 22:54:43 Bike: what would this 17825803 be? which type and how come it came to represent "nil" on yours ? 22:55:04 as in i disassembled NULL and it starts with CMP EAX, 17825803 22:55:11 <|3b|> seems pretty obvious type is NULL since the value is NIL 22:55:23 tcr1 [~tcr@84-72-21-32.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 22:55:37 is it like a memory address? 22:55:41 it would probably be more useful for you to look at the vops for some predicates (like i dunno, eq) and see how they do it. i just glanced a bit and :conditional :e seems relevant 22:55:43 <|3b|> that is my understanding 22:56:52 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@50.1.48.145] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 22:58:09 brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-142-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:59:02 -!- hitecnologys1 [~hitecnolo@94.137.10.36] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 23:00:15 arrdem [~arrdem@resnet-45-187.dorm.utexas.edu] has joined #lisp 23:02:39 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:03:07 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 23:03:41 -!- natechan [~natechan@50-192-61-46-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 23:03:54 -!- kofno [~kofno@cpe-24-165-213-11.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:09:22 I suspect this is pretty unusual, but I'm comming from clojure to clisp. Any advice on tools and development environments as I try to get uset to (set) and (loop) instead of recursion? 23:09:32 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 23:10:04 kofno [~kofno@cpe-24-165-213-11.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:10:13 arrdem: um why did you use recursion on clojure? Doesn't it lack tail-call elimination? 23:10:14 <|3b|> emacs+slime seems to be the most popular development environment 23:10:17 Jubb [~ghost@pool-108-28-62-61.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:10:40 *|3b|* hopes you mean SETF rather than SET too 23:10:48 jasom: if you're calling only "self", you can use recur (which uses GOTO in background) 23:10:56 jasom: I'm referring to the (recur) form which is used instead of compiler tail call elimination. 23:10:59 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:11:06 arrdem: ah, I forgot about that 23:11:47 |3b|: and yeah set/setf/setd? are new and confusing 23:12:06 <|3b|> arrdem: just use SETF for now, and ignore the rest 23:12:21 arrdem: plenty of people use tail-recursion in common lisp, but just as many people think you should never use it 23:12:50 -!- snearch [~snearch@g225148031.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 23:13:24 natechan [~natechan@50-192-61-46-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 23:13:38 hum... any hints on slime? the clojure guys moved away from it a while back so I've only ever used nrep.el 23:14:11 arrdem: get setup with quicklisp and install it's slime helper http://www.quicklisp.org/beta/ 23:14:37 *|3b|* wouldn't say "don't use tail recursion", but would say to avoid relying on it in most cases, since it isn't portable, and might not work when you expect it to unless you know the implementation well 23:16:43 -!- AeroNotix [~xeno@aboj54.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: Uploading hax.....] 23:16:46 *arrdem* can't imagine why |3b| likes the second person so much and is appalled that tail recursion could be considered implementation specific 23:17:15 "considered"? that's just the fact. 23:17:16 <|3b|> tail recursion is an optimization (in CL), and all optimizations are implementation specific 23:17:25 linse [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1177917310.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 23:17:37 you also don't want it all the time, e.g. in debugging 23:17:55 <|3b|> spec doesn't require it, so conforming implementations don't need to implement it 23:18:30 arrdem: it's in contrast to scheme which guarantees tail-call-elimination in specific circumstances 23:18:41 ah. that makes sense. 23:18:49 (not just tail recursion, note) 23:18:49 Hi, is Lisp in Small Pieces available legally anywhere online. Would love to read it, but £50 is a bit expensive. 23:19:02 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:19:28 <|3b|> impomatic: not that i've seen 23:19:29 dynamic scope + TCO is interesting, to say the least. 23:19:50 Bike: I've never seen a case where TCE produced less useful debug information than the alternative (typically trampoline or loop) 23:19:54 -!- ehu [~ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 23:20:21 drewc: does that even work? i thought sbcl didn't do tail call elimination if there was a dynamic binding in the middle 23:20:23 <|3b|> jasom: the alternative isn't always iteration 23:20:35 jasom: tce in situations where it's not just a loop, i mean 23:20:43 jasom: there's also the "recursion depth is reasonable" alternative. 23:20:58 <|3b|> jasom: TCE on something that was written recursively due to being a good fit to the task loses information compared to recursion without TCE 23:21:27 ebobby [~fms@189.170.52.145] has joined #lisp 23:22:37 Bike: SBCL doesn't, and for that matter, I don't think it 'works' if, say, (defun foo () (let ((*bar* (incf *bar*))) (foo)))... it is a tail call, but cannot be E or O'd away :) 23:22:56 right 23:24:26 drewc: that's not a tail call. 23:24:32 -!- leoncamel [~leoncamel@124.126.215.51] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:24:37 -!- antonv [5d7d31f9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.49.249] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:24:48 well, in that case you could compile it like "(tagbody start (push (1+ (peek bar-loc)) bar-loc) (go start))" or something, if you really wanted to 23:24:49 that's because dynamic bindings produce something that isn't a tailcall; there is implicit code at the end of the dynamic binding 23:24:59 oh, no, you have to pop, duh 23:25:13 -!- francogrex [~user@109.134.227.146] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:25:28 heh .... did I defvar or declare special the *bar* ;) 23:26:32 but true, not really a tailcall per-se, in fact, impossible to tell and one EVAL can 'get rid of it entirely' with a DEFVAR ... :) 23:27:35 *drewc* will now (list 'grumble *grumble*) about dynamic scope 23:28:38 -!- bitonic [~user@5e09a749.bb.sky.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:28:47 jrajav [~jrajav@66-188-176-243.dhcp.roch.mn.charter.com] has joined #lisp 23:30:59 -!- segv- [~mb@dslb-088-075-131-174.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: segv-] 23:32:11 segv- [~mb@dslb-088-075-131-174.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 23:32:11 -!- segv- [~mb@dslb-088-075-131-174.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Client Quit] 23:34:19 is there a way for me to dump my buffer into *interior-lisp*? 23:35:08 -!- Jabberwockey [~quassel@83.151.30.10] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:35:18 <|3b|> you should usually be using a *slime-repl ...* buffer rather than *inferior9lisp* 23:35:21 C-c C-l? 23:35:47 what |3b| said 23:35:47 cheers Bike 23:35:51 arrdem: you can also compile and load the entire file with C-c C-k 23:36:26 Jabberwockey [~quassel@83.151.30.10] has joined #lisp 23:36:28 i'm not sure exactly what dumping the entire buffer into *inferior-lisp* would mean, but C-c C-l will get lisp to load the file. 23:38:25 herm... so why can't I (setf) the result of (trie-get)? http://paste.lisp.org/display/134686 23:38:52 arrdem: because it's not a place 23:39:16 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-165-77.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:39:18 then why does (setf (gethash .. ..) .. ) work? 23:39:36 arrdem: because there is a macro defined for that 23:39:39 clhs gethash 23:39:39 arrdem: usually, internal functions are called with a %, not a _. 23:39:40 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_gethas.htm 23:39:45 <|3b|> you can extend SETF, to tell it how to work on different forms 23:40:10 arrdem: notice that the spec lists both gethash... and (setf (gethash... 23:40:18 aye 23:40:24 arrdem: the thing to understand is that (setf (gethash ...) ...) isn't working on the result of gethash, it's that setf is a macro that expands appropriately to alter the hash. 23:40:38 clhs defsetf 23:40:38 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defset.htm 23:40:55 jack_rabbit [~kyle@c-98-253-60-75.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:40:58 You can define a function named (setf trie-get) to do that. 23:41:11 (defun (setf trie-get) (new-value trie path) ) 23:41:18 It should return new-value. 23:41:59 edgar-rft [~GOD@HSI-KBW-091-089-005-041.hsi2.kabelbw.de] has joined #lisp 23:42:08 mmkay... thanks for the reading material 23:42:52 is there a "better" way to structure this, or is adding this setf form the way to go? 23:43:15 in this case the system couldn't have figured out what setf trie-get was supposed to do anyway- if i'm reading this right the value altered may be several hash tables down, it's not just (setf gethash) or anything 23:43:53 Correct. The idea is that have a sequece of chars and I index into nested maps to access the value. 23:43:53 Bike: each trie contains a hash-table of children, so that's right 23:46:28 arrdem: in many ways this is superior to C++'s reference approach. We can have bitvectors, and failed searches (e.g. in the trie) don't have to create an entry just so that there exists a reference to set. 23:46:42 syamajala [~syamajala@c-75-68-106-118.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:47:05 arrdem you can add something like (slime-setup '(slime-fancy slime-asdf slime-banner)) to your .emacs to get *slime-repl* instead of just *inferior-lisp* 23:47:16 <|3b|> has emacs+slime always indented IF by 4 spaces in CL code? 23:47:48 arrdem: on a completely unrelated note, if you expect the trie to be quite sparse (i.e. mean number of children very small) then you might consider using an alist instead of a hash 23:48:09 jasom: alist? 23:48:22 AH. 23:48:23 (acons key value alist) 23:48:23 yes. 23:48:35 (assoc key alist) 23:48:41 |3b|: i thought it indented to where the condition was. 23:49:14 <|3b|> Bike: same thing i think 23:49:39 <|3b|> unless you have extra spaces i suppose, in which case it does seem to line up with condition 23:49:40 -!- brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-142-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:49:58 -!- kofno [~kofno@cpe-24-165-213-11.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:50:29 |3b|: indents to the condition here. 23:51:28 *|3b|* misread the IF in the paste due to the indentation, so was puzzled that it matched what emacs does 23:51:29 -!- adelgado [~TomSawyer@65.23.61.98.nw.nuvox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:51:40 -!- dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 23:52:02 since the negative case is ignored i'd use when there, not that it really matters much 23:52:26 <|3b|> read it as condition being continued onto next line and not quite indented enough 23:52:41 oh. 23:52:46 <|3b|> yeah, was going to suggest WHEN before i got distracted by the indentation 23:54:28 (setf (gethash entry trie) (gethash entry trie (make-hash-table))) will add a hashtable if that key is empty, am I correct? 23:54:39 -!- stopbit [~stopbit@static-108-48-124-82.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:54:51 brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-142-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:54:53 arrdem: it'll also create a hash table regardless. 23:54:58 hitecnologys1 [~hitecnolo@94.137.10.36] has joined #lisp 23:55:14 pkhuong: won't the GC hit it almost immediately? 23:55:48 arrdem: maybe maybe not. The near-sure thing is that some time will be wasted setting it up. 23:55:49 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@120.158.206.242] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:56:15 huangjs [~huangjs@67-42-84-147.tukw.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 23:56:24 (or (gethash entry trie) (make-hash-table)) isn't really harder to read or write. 23:57:13 in alexandria there's a simple ensure-gethash macro for when storing nil in the tree is ok. 23:57:17 bitonic [~user@5e09a749.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 23:57:45 (gethash entry trie (make-hash-table)) would work too 23:57:48 -!- alec [~alec@68-185-207-130.dhcp.dntn.tx.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:58:37 kennyd: read 6 lines up. 23:58:49 yeah, my mistake 23:59:20 -!- francisl [~flavoie@199.84.164.114] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 23:59:26 -!- hitecnologys1 [~hitecnolo@94.137.10.36] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]