00:00:17 and LW has a global parameter *handle-existing-defpackage* which can be set to your taste 00:00:59 gkeith_lt [gkeith@nat/google/x-syrxagodrirzpbxz] has joined #lisp 00:01:14 -!- gkeith_lt [gkeith@nat/google/x-syrxagodrirzpbxz] has quit [Client Quit] 00:01:22 danlentz: thank you, I will check that out. 00:02:12 I'm not proposing having defpackage do the modification -- i want to clean up my code not to use defpackage in this way. 00:02:47 I tend to agree that it's package abuse to expect defpackage to make modifications. 00:03:10 so something like a modify-package or amend-package or define-amended-package would be more better 00:03:46 jrajav [~jrajav@66-188-176-243.dhcp.roch.mn.charter.com] has joined #lisp 00:04:01 Or does he think that any type of modification of a package, once initially defined, is "abuse" ? 00:04:21 -!- peterhil` [~peterhil@gatekeeper.brainalliance.com] has quit [Quit: Must not waste too much time here...] 00:04:25 No that's the purpose of MODPACKAGE 00:05:02 But it is very careful about how the modifications are implemented 00:05:06 pjb: is pjbware under GPL? is that why it would be complicated for my program to use it? 00:05:45 gendl: you can't use GPL software by others in a program with a proprietary license. 00:06:08 yes you can 00:06:22 you simply can't distribute it 00:06:29 fe[nl]ix: right. 00:06:36 that's indeed the ponit. 00:06:37 point. 00:06:47 so as long as it's an in-house server, it's fine 00:07:18 with only in-house users, yes. 00:07:20 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f757790.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 00:07:25 nope 00:07:40 the use of a webserver does not constitute distribution 00:08:03 There are some things that scan the source looking for defpackage forms that may not handle it appropriately if you have MODPACKAGE. Function calls instead 00:08:16 CLD 00:08:28 gendl: usually AGPL3. 00:08:29 CLDOC is one 00:08:36 pjb: but https://gitorious.org/com-informatimago/com-informatimago/trees/master/common-lisp/lisp-reader doesn't look ilke it is under GPL, is it? 00:08:40 Perhaps slime 00:08:41 -!- johnstorey [~johnstore@12.218.85.246] has quit [Quit: joining all red shirts in their final fate] 00:09:02 gendl: but that reminds me that the package stuff is actually MIT or BSD, because I started from Xach's code. 00:09:09 gendl: so you can use it freely. 00:09:43 The reader is AGPL3; https://gitorious.org/com-informatimago/com-informatimago/blobs/master/common-lisp/lisp-reader/reader.lisp#line25 00:10:32 pjb: out of curiosity, what is most of your AGPLed code about? 00:10:53 gendl: it's natural to reload files, with modified defpackage forms. So redefinition with defpackage should be normalized. 00:10:58 -!- eli [~eli@racket/eli] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:11:08 gendl: those are generic libraries. 00:11:43 browse the doc: http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/doc/ 00:12:37 fe[nl]ix: the use in a public (web) server is however forbidden by AGPL3, if the source of that server is not available to the public. 00:13:21 Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 00:13:57 fe[nl]ix: yep that's the point of AGPL vs. regular GPL 00:13:58 -!- Guthur [~user@eth2845.sa.adsl.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 00:14:48 -!- findiggle1 [~kirkwood@67.40.30.237] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:16:22 -!- ehu [~ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:16:46 pjb: so you think redefinition with defpackage "should be normalized" --- but it's not that way in the ANSI spec 00:16:54 pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has joined #lisp 00:17:11 -!- PuercoPop [~user@190.236.194.173] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:17:33 so regardless of whether it "should" -- we have to use something different for production use 00:18:42 -!- PCChris [~PCChris@cpe-65-31-47-32.woh.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:19:38 any outside tools which depend on cl:defpackage handling redefinitions in a certain way are already broken with respect to the spec, aren't they? 00:21:46 I highly doubt that slime actually scans source files to figure out symbols and packages -- I'm hoping it scans the packages as they exist in-memory somebody please tell me i'm right? 00:21:55 when do you want to redefine a package using defpackage other than during development? 00:24:05 tcr: when loading new modules. 00:24:07 pyx [~pyx@108.162.178.78] has joined #lisp 00:24:29 Why does loading a new module result in re-evaluating a defpackage form? 00:25:00 for example, our default "scratch" package is :gdl-user 00:25:13 in the core system it uses only :gdl and :common-lisp 00:25:19 but if you load our :geom-base module, 00:25:38 then :gdl-user should also start use'ing that package as well. 00:25:52 maybe it's messy and ill-advised even to do it that way in the first place 00:26:25 but it would cause more confusion for our users than it would solve to force them to use a different scratch package just because :geom-base happens to be loaded 00:26:41 when :geom-base is loaded, they then have access to things like box, sphere, cylinder etc. 00:27:17 Do you know about the function USE- 00:27:22 USE-PACKAGE? 00:27:32 yes, the problem is if they already created their own 'sphere symbol in :gdl-user before loading the :geom-base package, 00:27:35 Tcr: is there a conduits based solution? 00:27:53 they will get an error --- but that's life, and that's expected. 00:28:03 gendl: yes, you cannot count on cl:defpackage. That's why one must use another defpackage, if one wants to use it to refine the package definition. 00:28:56 yes, i know use-package 00:29:07 gendl: a lot of old code just didn't use :export or :use in defpackage forms, but had import and export forms spread over the files. 00:29:08 but our system now has rampant misuse of defpackage already 00:29:20 and use-package too, yes. 00:29:47 I'm trying to find the best way to clean up the code to be compatible with ABCL and remain clear & correct 00:29:54 gendl: that's why I'd advise an alternative definition for defpackage (shadow 'defpackage) (defmacro defpackage ) 00:30:03 I could convert everything to functional (use  ) and (export ) but that looks like a mess 00:30:32 we already have our gdl:define-package which expands into (cl:defpackage  (:use :gdl ) ) 00:30:37 Don't you just need to execute (use-package :geom-base (find-package :gdl-user)) for your use case? 00:30:38 gendl: macros are made to convert things for you! 00:30:41 so I can just extend that thing to do the redefinitions properly 00:31:08 If you already use a define-package instead of cl:defpackage, then just correct your bug! 00:31:44 gendl: of course. Don't call defpackage. Call package management functions. 00:33:32 ok. sorry for all the noise here. Anyway maybe a few people learned a few things. 00:33:54 Another way alltogether (which I sometimes wishes for Slime to provide too) is to create your own REPL which has a *packages* a list of current packages which is searched in order for a symbol. 00:34:49 new year's resolution: I will try to hang out here more often so i can answer as many questions as i've been asking over the past year or so! 00:35:00 Good! 00:36:41 -!- k0001_ [~k0001@host87.186-125-97.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 00:38:10 k0001 [~k0001@host127.190-136-200.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 00:38:39 Jubb [~ghost@c-69-143-14-148.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:39:40 olvar [~chatzilla@w-133.cust-3037.ip.static.uno.uk.net] has joined #lisp 00:39:58 hi guys! 00:40:04 hi. 00:40:19 :) i am trying to learn lisp 00:40:32 and id like some guidance on functions that return functions 00:40:50 is there a way to skip the "funcall" for the returned function? 00:41:12 returning a function and funcalling a function are two different things. 00:41:30 yeah, i know, but lets say... 00:42:36 i define (defun funret () (lambda () (let ((a 1)) (progn (setf (+ 1 a)) a)))) 00:42:52 and then make (setf b (funret)) 00:42:55 you messed up your closure. 00:43:05 then, to call the closure I need to do (funcall b) 00:43:19 and your setf syntax. 00:43:21 why? 00:43:23 stop using setf if you are a beginner. 00:43:45 The let binding is established in the function body, i.e., anew each time you call the returned function. 00:43:48 lol 00:44:02 i see.. i made amistake 00:44:09 but do you get the idea? 00:44:17 Yes. Is there a problem with funcall? 00:44:52 no, i am just trying to understand why returning a lambda is not the same as creating a new function 00:44:57 in other languages 00:45:11 assigning a lambda to a variable and creating a function are really the same 00:45:22 but here there seems to be something fundamentally different 00:45:39 Nah. Just different namespaces. 00:45:51 It's so that you can do things like (defun my-list (list) (list list)) 00:46:34 uhm... so then, making (defun name () (closure)) 00:46:45 would allow me to do (name) without the funcall? 00:46:57 You mean (defun name () (funcall closure))? 00:47:18 errr... (defun name () (closure-creator)) 00:47:31 i think closure-creator was my "funret" 00:47:34 no, that defines a function that calls the closure-creator function. 00:47:48 -!- am0c [~am0c@am0c.broker.freenet6.net] has quit [Quit: am0c] 00:48:01 yeah, but closure-creatur returns a function 00:48:04 am0c [~am0c@am0c.broker.freenet6.net] has joined #lisp 00:48:19 And it'll return a new one every time you call name. 00:48:34 right :< 00:48:58 You could do: (let ((closure (closure-creator))) (defun name () (funcall closure))) 00:49:17 or lose the indirection and d (let ((a 1)) (defun name () (incf a))) 00:49:21 *and do 00:50:38 so to scape to the functions name space i'd need another closure? 00:50:56 scape? 00:51:39 what i undesrtood was that assigning the returned function to a variable let a function trapped in that variable namespace 00:51:44 -!- bitonic [~user@5e09a749.bb.sky.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:52:03 so if i want to skip the funcall i need to, somehow, define a function with the returned function 00:52:05 is that right? 00:52:23 You could also do (setf (fdefinition 'name) (closure-creator)) 00:52:34 to just access the namespace directly. 00:53:14 yay! that worked! 00:53:23 I don't think you want that olvar 00:53:26 i'll look up fdefinition :P 00:53:27 ty a lot! 00:53:36 why not? 00:53:43 it binds it globally 00:54:27 yeah, but i am not worried about that xD 00:54:35 alright then 00:55:53 -!- zajn [~zajn@c-67-182-61-90.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: zajn] 00:56:02 ty guys! see you soon :) 00:56:09 olvar: (foo 1 2 3) is just syntactic shorthand for (funcall #'foo 1 2 3). 00:56:56 And #'foo is again a shorthand for (FUNCTION FOO) which retrieves a function object named FOO from the global function namespace 00:57:02 PuercoPop [~user@190.43.147.240] has joined #lisp 00:57:26 -!- pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:58:07 yeah, the problem i was having is that syntactic sugar is quite usefull if you happen to use that function in a lot of places xD 00:58:09 (Actually scratch the "global" that was incorrect, to be precise) 00:58:30 -!- pyx [~pyx@108.162.178.78] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.9.2] 00:58:41 olvar: usually you'd just define the closure directly like i said. 00:59:04 The point is that (foo 1 2 3) is a shorthand for (funcall #'foo 1 2 3) and #'foo looks up what is named FOO in the function namespace. If it expanded to (funcall foo 1 2 3) it would try to evaluate what is bound to FOO. 00:59:08 for what i want, is usefull to have a function to generate the closures 00:59:24 Most languages do not have different namespace for variables and functions. That is unique to Lisp. 00:59:58 i see... thats why my lua code never complained about that :P 00:59:59 Scheme, a dialect of Lisp, does not have distinct namespaces for variables and functions 01:00:04 unique to Common Lisp, as far as I know. 01:00:15 are there any other Lisps with separate namespaces like that? 01:00:16 gendl: many older lisps too 01:00:31 maclisp and such 01:00:34 gendl: Pretty much every Lisp with Lisp in its name :-) 01:01:05 so not Clojure. 01:01:13 olvar: if you want syntactic sugar, then implement it. Eg. define a #\{ reader macro so that {(funret) 1 2 3} is read as (funcall (funret) 1 2 3) 01:01:15 Lisp 1.5 01:01:19 redscare [~Adium@ool-435634f3.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 01:01:19 even though Rich Hickey claims he's a "Common Lisper" 01:01:23 -!- Jubb [~ghost@c-69-143-14-148.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:01:55 -!- jrajav [~jrajav@66-188-176-243.dhcp.roch.mn.charter.com] has quit [Quit: phunq, sandwich store loop, WHAT NO UNIVERSE] 01:01:55 gendl: that's wrong. 01:02:16 Clojure is written in java and being converted into Clojure. It never has been written in Common Lisp. 01:02:16 which? 01:02:53 Who claimed it was? 01:03:02 but i think i've heard Rich say that he's more of a Common Lisp guy than a Scheme guy 01:03:06 jasom: well, for LISP 1.5, it's indicated to write it in upper case :-) 01:03:21 pjb OKAY 01:03:32 gendl: he means he prefers lisp-2 over lisp-1. 01:03:42 but isn't Clojure a lisp-1? 01:03:45 pjb: not as convenient as the usual use of functions 01:04:05 gendl: check http://www.dreamsongs.com/Separation.html 01:04:28 ok guys, ty a lot, gttg! 01:04:31 olvar: there are macros to evaluate subexpressions in lisp-1. 01:04:56 zajn [~zajn@c-67-182-61-90.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:04:57 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 01:05:04 -!- olvar [~chatzilla@w-133.cust-3037.ip.static.uno.uk.net] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.89 [SeaMonkey 2.14.1/20121129191119]] 01:19:29 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:21:14 -!- danlentz [~danlentz@2601:c:3680:1c:2c11:f7b8:4d30:595b] has quit [Quit: Dan Lentz ... 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[~substitut@97-113-98-140.tukw.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 03:12:42 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:19:35 redscare [~Adium@ool-435634f3.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 03:21:37 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 03:22:31 -!- Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-72-66-99-183.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 03:23:22 -!- am0c [~am0c@am0c.broker.freenet6.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:24:10 -!- redscare [~Adium@ool-435634f3.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:31:02 black_joe [~nate@pool-72-73-248-89.cmdnnj.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:32:11 Does anyone want to help me with some faulty lisp code? http://pastebin.com/KtFeuSxz 03:32:23 I'm trying to get a position of an element from a list. 03:32:32 But this function always returns NIL. 03:32:36 Try thinking of a question to ask about it. 03:32:58 Well, a) Is there a better approach than a nested defun and funcall? 03:33:12 Depends on your metric for goodness. 03:33:34 black_joe: defun is for defining top-level functions. for local functions, use flet or labels. 03:33:36 However, nested defuns are extremely rare. 03:33:48 black_joe: for your algorithm, you want labels as you seem to want to make a recursive call 03:34:29 black_joe: note that common lisp makes no guarantees about tail call optimization, so your tail recursive implementation may be slow, use a lot of memory and not scale. 03:35:11 Yeah, I know. I'm just starting off really and Tail call recursion was the only looping construct my old language supported. 03:35:26 So I've been trying to solve lisp problems using that style. 03:35:32 black_joe: don't 03:35:35 Which old language is that? 03:35:59 Clojure. I know it has macros, but it all boils down to tail calls. 03:36:06 am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has joined #lisp 03:36:47 black_joe: you're better off forgetting about clojure when you learn common lisp 03:37:07 minion: tell black_joe about pcl 03:37:07 black_joe: have a look at pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 03:37:38 I've read that. But I made the mistake of not practicing after chapters. 03:37:39 -!- bananagram [~bot@c-98-198-236-112.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 03:37:47 So when I started my first project, I immediately ran into difficulty. 03:38:13 So labels() would be the best way to do this, then. 03:38:28 no. iteration would be the best way to iterate. 03:38:45 I suggest not using the word 'best' any more. 03:38:55 good idea, thank you 03:39:13 the best way would probably be to use the standard function, "position" 03:39:16 black_joe: a better way would be to call cl:position 03:40:01 Well, I was more using this as a learning exercise than anything. But in the interim I'll replace this part with position. 03:43:08 -!- substitute [~substitut@97-113-98-140.tukw.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:45:37 -!- Longlius [~Longlius@68.170.235.238] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:45:59 sirdancealot1 [~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 03:46:26 ebobby [~fms@189.170.27.127] has joined #lisp 03:48:08 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@50.1.48.145] has joined #lisp 03:48:32 black_joe: http://paste.lisp.org/display/134401 03:49:53 black_joe: the naming of the local function in the tail recursive variant is a bit distasteful. 03:50:58 Thank you, H4ns. I am going to be using the second one. I never even though to change a local variable in a loop. 03:51:12 Clojure messes with your thought process about immutability. 03:52:08 clojure may have its merits, but much of what it teaches is not applicable in common lisp 03:52:35 Common lisp is a procedural language, with a bias toward a functional style. 03:53:26 The whole reason this function gave me trouble was trying to avoid procedurality. 03:53:38 Good to know it's not generally looked down upon. 03:54:06 redscare [~Adium@ool-435634f3.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 03:55:27 setmeaway [stemearay@183.106.96.104] has joined #lisp 03:55:56 setmeaway2 [stemearay@118.45.149.239] has joined #lisp 03:57:17 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 04:00:19 -!- setmeaway [stemearay@183.106.96.104] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:00:46 yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.170] has joined #lisp 04:03:15 -!- benny [~user@i577A3F43.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 04:04:02 -!- findiggle [~kirkwood@50-194-56-154-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:20:49 pirateking-_- [~piratekin@unaffiliated/pirateking---/x-2885143] has joined #lisp 04:27:35 deadlytoah [~Thunderbi@175.211.184.18] has joined #lisp 04:33:58 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 04:34:24 -!- gendl [~gendl@c-68-41-192-171.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has left #lisp 04:35:15 basic82 [3df5a0fc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.61.245.160.252] has joined #lisp 04:38:27 -!- deckeraa [~aaron@97-83-167-14.dhcp.stpt.wi.charter.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 04:38:53 NimeshNeema [uid2689@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-lfntakgbjggrdiog] has joined #lisp 04:42:30 -!- doomlord [~doomlod@host31-53-219-0.range31-53.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 04:45:17 -!- Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:46:38 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 04:48:10 sw2wolf [~czsq888@171.88.18.234] has joined #lisp 04:51:21 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@50.1.48.145] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 04:51:31 gravicappa [~gravicapp@h178-129-87-153.dyn.bashtel.ru] has joined #lisp 04:52:19 -!- PCChris [~PCChris@cpe-65-31-47-32.woh.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:57:04 -!- brguy [~idonteven@189.27.92.252.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 05:01:56 rdqfdx [~rdqfdx@78.90.88.244] has joined #lisp 05:08:21 -!- karupanerura [~karupaner@www5325uf.sakura.ne.jp] has quit [Excess Flood] 05:09:09 -!- Corvidium [~cosman246@c-24-56-228-105.customer.broadstripe.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 05:09:45 -!- PuercoPop [~user@190.43.147.240] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:11:45 karupanerura [~karupaner@www5325uf.sakura.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 05:13:30 -!- basic82 [3df5a0fc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.61.245.160.252] has quit [] 05:14:45 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@50.1.48.145] has joined #lisp 05:15:28 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 05:26:36 mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.99.110] has joined #lisp 05:27:03 Fare [~fare@173-9-65-97-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 05:27:45 -!- cafaro [~tman@unaffiliated/cafaro] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:27:46 stassats: herep? Your latest commit from Thu Jan 3 12:40:52 2013 looks like it broke slime-fancy-inspector -- missing variable presentation 05:27:55 also, missing dependency on slime-presentations 05:28:00 (presumably) 05:31:03 ykm [~ykm@124.155.255.244] has joined #lisp 05:37:46 MrWoohoo [~MrWoohoo@pool-173-67-109-10.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:44:17 -!- cfy [~ilisp@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:44:58 -!- MrWoohoo [~MrWoohoo@pool-173-67-109-10.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]] 05:45:00 cfy` [~ilisp@183.140.233.183] has joined #lisp 05:45:07 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@50-196-148-102-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 05:45:32 kpreid [~kpreid@50-196-148-102-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 05:46:10 -!- cfy` is now known as cfy 05:46:28 -!- cfy [~ilisp@183.140.233.183] has quit [Changing host] 05:46:28 cfy [~ilisp@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 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Freenode staff: If this is happening too frequently, please set a nickserv freeze on my account, and once my connection is stable, unfreeze the account and /kill me to trigger a reconnect.] 12:42:16 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has joined #lisp 12:44:17 -!- yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.170] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:44:33 -!- macrobat [~fuzzyglee@88.206.143.196] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.2] 12:44:56 Odyessus [~odyessus@chello080109062130.15.14.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 12:44:59 yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.170] has joined #lisp 12:45:27 agumonkey [~agu@183.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 12:48:50 -!- jewel [~jewel@105-236-210-214.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:49:43 clop [~jared@moat3.centtech.com] has joined #lisp 12:56:50 Learning lisp. Stuck at a basic problem. Would appreciate a little help - http://codepad.org/MsWAIIgL 12:57:13 Corvidium [~cosman246@c-24-56-228-105.customer.broadstripe.net] has joined #lisp 12:57:14 Please ask a question about it. 12:57:27 Also, you might want to check which language you're using. 12:57:46 that looks like scheme not common lisp (topic of this channel) 12:58:46 I'm using Scheme. Oops, Sorry. Since I thought it was a very basic syntax problem I could try asking here. 12:58:59 You haven't asked anything. 13:00:29 Finding it a bit hard to frame the question. But theoretically, I should be able to assign a variable to the result of case analyses, right? 13:00:31 *|3b|* wouldn't expect < to work on functions 13:00:44 define does not assign in scheme. 13:01:00 -!- arbscht [~arbscht@fsf/member/arbscht] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8] 13:01:01 -!- AlbireoX [~AlbireoX@99-136-83-34.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:01:01 <|3b|> oh, those were supposed to be variables? 13:01:09 *|3b|* shouldn't try to read scheme i guess 13:01:11 nachtwandler [~nachtwand@p5089CC3D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:01:20 least is supposed to be a variable, yes. 13:01:34 See set!, but probably what you need is to get a scheme tutorial or book and read it. 13:01:50 There's also a scheme channel that might be more useful. 13:02:43 Oh. Sure. Thanks. I did ping the #scheme channel, but didn't get a response. Sorry to bother with the basic stuff. Will read up more. 13:03:12 It's relatively simple once you grasp the basic semantics. 13:04:26 That's encouraging. Sure, will dig in. 13:07:00 ilisp` [~cfy@183.140.233.183] has joined #lisp 13:08:11 -!- ilisp [~ilisp@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 13:08:15 hi 13:09:32 please how can I interact with OS? I need to test pathnames for files or directories. I'm using cl-fad for operations on pathnames... 13:09:39 arbscht [~arbscht@fsf/member/arbscht] has joined #lisp 13:10:07 Why do you need to test like that? 13:11:22 Ralt_ [~ralt@89-92-204-200.hfc.dyn.abo.bbox.fr] has joined #lisp 13:11:27 I have 13:11:46 to write a program to collect statistics on a Visual Basic 6 project 13:12:13 so I've to list files, file types and directories involved in the project 13:12:15 Perhaps optimistic failure would work, then. 13:12:46 e.g., assume that something is a directory, and handle the failure case gracefully. 13:13:09 I've to recursively traverse the project filesystem 13:13:18 Sure. See above. 13:13:27 ok 13:13:38 how can I test for directories or files? 13:13:58 Why test? 13:14:09 cl-fad:walk-directory 13:14:26 What happens if you do that on a non-directory? 13:14:52 walk-directory would emit an error I suppose 13:15:04 so I can use an handler-case construct to catch 13:15:17 That's the optimistic failure approach I was talking about. 13:15:19 EarlGray [~mitra@78.154.160.117] has joined #lisp 13:15:27 aah good 13:15:28 Probably some os dependent stuff would be nicer. 13:15:42 I'm on linux 13:15:56 You probably have a posix interface library. 13:16:03 ok 13:16:06 -!- dmiles [~dmiles@c-71-237-234-93.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:17:04 (cl-fad:walk-directory #p"/home/angel/Development/c/anneal.c" (lambda (x) (format t "~%~a" x))) 13:17:25 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-71-237-234-93.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:20:24 Jambato [~Jambato@2a01:e35:2f15:c40:211:d8ff:fe7d:2c4a] has joined #lisp 13:20:47 http://weitz.de/cl-fad/#directory-pathname-p ? 13:22:17 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-71-237-234-93.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:23:19 Posterdati: there is cl-fad:directory-exists-p 13:24:13 merk: yes, good! 13:25:35 testing whether a file/dir exists is silly 13:25:41 kiuma [~kiuma@2-230-138-74.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 13:25:59 why would it be silly? 13:26:17 because you can't rely on the result 13:26:38 not following 13:26:56 fantazo [~fantazo@213.129.230.10] has joined #lisp 13:27:03 race condition? 13:27:10 telemachus, bingo 13:27:55 Of course, by that token, traversing directories is silly. 13:28:39 .. and more useful 13:30:21 -!- EarlGray [~mitra@78.154.160.117] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:31:10 EarlGray [~mitra@78.154.160.117] has joined #lisp 13:32:29 browndawg [~browndawg@117.201.183.16] has joined #lisp 13:34:39 Longlius [~Longlius@68.170.235.238] has joined #lisp 13:39:59 EarlGray^ [~mitra@78.154.160.117] has joined #lisp 13:40:03 gravicappa [~gravicapp@h94-75-34-47.dyn.bashtel.ru] has joined #lisp 13:40:30 kilon [~kilon@unaffiliated/thekilon] has joined #lisp 13:40:57 -!- EarlGray [~mitra@78.154.160.117] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:41:15 antonv [5d7d31f9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.49.249] has joined #lisp 13:43:13 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-148.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 13:43:34 -!- EarlGray^ [~mitra@78.154.160.117] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:45:17 EarlGray^ [~mitra@78.154.160.117] has joined #lisp 13:45:32 -!- jrajav [~jrajav@66-188-176-243.dhcp.roch.mn.charter.com] has quit [Quit: phunq, sandwich store loop, WHAT NO UNIVERSE] 13:45:39 -!- Odyessus [~odyessus@chello080109062130.15.14.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi] 13:47:00 substitute [~substitut@97-113-98-140.tukw.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 13:52:38 k0001 [~k0001@host242.190-226-197.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 13:53:55 jrajav [~jrajav@66-188-176-243.dhcp.roch.mn.charter.com] has joined #lisp 13:57:01 -!- ilisp` is now known as cfy 13:57:02 -!- cfy [~cfy@183.140.233.183] has quit [Changing host] 13:57:02 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 13:59:14 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:59:16 zulu_inuoe_ [~quassel@184.89.111.53] has joined #lisp 14:00:50 xliweinan [~liweinan@123.123.56.30] has joined #lisp 14:00:56 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 14:01:52 Odyessus [~odyessus@chello080109062130.15.14.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 14:02:17 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f7554a1.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 14:02:40 -!- jrajav [~jrajav@66-188-176-243.dhcp.roch.mn.charter.com] has quit [Quit: phunq, sandwich store loop, WHAT NO UNIVERSE] 14:03:07 jrajav [~jrajav@66-188-176-243.dhcp.roch.mn.charter.com] has joined #lisp 14:03:19 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@h94-75-34-47.dyn.bashtel.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:07:26 -!- Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 14:07:54 Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 14:08:04 -!- Buglouse [~Buglouse@unaffiliated/Buglouse] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 14:08:49 -!- merk_ [~tmanny@212.91.105.149] has quit [Quit: merk_] 14:09:38 -!- EarlGray^ [~mitra@78.154.160.117] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 14:11:36 -!- Odyessus [~odyessus@chello080109062130.15.14.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi] 14:14:22 Buglouse [~Buglouse@unaffiliated/Buglouse] has joined #lisp 14:17:27 -!- Ralt_ [~ralt@89-92-204-200.hfc.dyn.abo.bbox.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:19:05 NikolaiDante [~nikolaida@unaffiliated/knighterrant] has joined #lisp 14:19:19 -!- NikolaiDante [~nikolaida@unaffiliated/knighterrant] has left #lisp 14:19:19 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:21:58 Ralt_ [~ralt@89-92-204-200.hfc.dyn.abo.bbox.fr] has joined #lisp 14:22:28 -!- rdqfdx [~rdqfdx@78.90.88.244] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:22:53 rdqfdx [~rdqfdx@78.90.88.244] has joined #lisp 14:24:11 hiato [~nine@clam.leg.uct.ac.za] has joined #lisp 14:26:20 So I realise that this probably qualifies as a 'noob' question, but noone seems to be around in the noob channel so I'm going to try my luck here: "so I'm working my way through Land of Lisp, and I came across something which seems like it's doing something underhanded here: What is going on when I evaluate (mapcar #'(lambda (x) (list 'quote x)) '(cat foo bar)) ? It seems to me that there is an extra pass of eval going on. I would expect (('quote cat) ('quote 14:27:33 Ooh 14:28:06 Heh, wait, I think I see what's going on. That was silly. I was thrown off there for a silly reason. Thanks for allowing me to reflect upon this :] 14:28:38 the mark of a true master is a silence that teaches 14:29:17 :D 14:29:29 gravicappa [~gravicapp@h94-75-34-47.dyn.bashtel.ru] has joined #lisp 14:29:30 well done sirs 14:29:44 if you have any other questions, don't hesitate to ask 14:30:25 thanks snowylike :) 14:30:42 ykm [~ykm@124.155.255.226] has joined #lisp 14:30:50 Fare [~fare@173.9.65.97] has joined #lisp 14:31:53 hiato: You just proved the usefulness of rubber ducking - http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?RubberDucking 14:31:53 :) 14:31:58 Happens to me all the time on irc and in life. 14:32:56 LiamH [~none@96.231.220.53] has joined #lisp 14:33:21 telemachus: haha, I've heard of this before but never had it occured to me to try and explain it. Only when I posted in the "more serious" channel did I realise I'd better come up with a reason why I don't understand it. Then, when I couldn't do so I realised I did :P 14:33:43 s/explain it/explain the matter at hand to noone in particular/ 14:33:43 *telemachus* laughs 14:34:12 Yup. Asking makes you formulate, formulate helps you answer. Not always but often enough. 14:34:49 Heh, I'm liking the philosophy of this place already :P 14:35:37 Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-72-66-99-183.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:35:57 -!- Jambato [~Jambato@2a01:e35:2f15:c40:211:d8ff:fe7d:2c4a] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:35:57 hiato: Actually, I'm new too. So I'm not sure I represent the place at all. 14:36:16 Jambato [~Jambato@2a01:e35:2f15:c40:211:d8ff:fe7d:2c4a] has joined #lisp 14:36:19 telemachus: yeah, don't make #lisp look too nice 14:36:39 stassats`: Sorry. I'll remember that in future. ;) 14:36:50 stassats`: heh :P 14:36:59 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@213.129.230.10] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:36:59 telemachus: new to cl/lisp or the channel? 14:37:14 well, between you and snowylike it's an excellent first start 14:37:15 -!- Bacteria [~Bacteria@c210-49-73-217.dandn3.vic.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Quit: Bacteria] 14:37:56 hiato: Both. I'm studying Scheme and Lambda calculus for the first time (on my own), and heard someone say something good about #lisp. 14:37:56 So I joined. 14:38:34 there's #scheme 14:38:46 stassats`: I joined there too. 14:38:51 telemachus: cool, I approve of the direction (not only because I'm doing something similar but ... ok, mostly that :P) 14:39:04 snowylike: Nice quote. Who said that? 14:39:21 Have asked some questions there. 14:39:22 browndawg: noone i know of 14:39:34 it's a variation of an old joke some mathematicians may know 14:39:36 telemachus: I must say, coming from Haskell (I know, I know) I find CL much more interesting than Scheme for some reason 14:40:08 snowylike: Haha :). And the joke is? 14:40:09 hiato: Fair enough. 14:40:29 *hiato* realises he'd better stop there though, and ducks some incoming blows. 14:40:51 I was interested in learning _a_ Lisp, without much concern about which. And someone I know and trust recommended The Little Schemer. So I went that way. 14:40:51 Almost random, really. 14:41:15 telemachus: cool, I see. Well may I recommend LoL and unrecommend SICP :P 14:41:16 what makes you think that Scheme is a Lisp? 14:41:34 (I was worried we'd get to this ^ :P) 14:41:42 A topologist was explaining his new theorem to a crowd of other topologists, when someone stood up and exclaimed: "I don't understand what you're doing here, could you explain it?". The presentator stood silent and waited. After some time the questioner said "Ah, I see", and then he went on with his talk. 14:41:57 snowylike: :D 14:42:30 it contains a deep truth about mathematics, if you ask me 14:42:32 -!- ski [~ski@c80-216-142-165.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:42:41 noone can explain something to you, you have to find it yourself 14:43:31 Or possibly a deep bullshit. 14:43:55 that's of course also possible 14:43:56 snowylike: I regret not taking math seriously in high school now. 14:44:21 stassats`: I'm sorry? 14:44:37 ski [~ski@c80-216-142-165.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 14:44:40 browndawg: well, there are some differences between the mathematics i was thinking about and the one that is taught in school 14:45:00 snowylike: I wouldn't know. :) 14:45:02 -!- [SLB] is now known as [SLB]` 14:46:42 Indecipherable [~Indeciphe@41.13.16.190] has joined #lisp 14:47:30 telemachus: Scheme is substantially different from Common Lisp, placing them in the same category doesn't appear to be really useful 14:47:56 -!- ykm [~ykm@124.155.255.226] has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:48:03 Unless your notion of lisp is not the set of languages that are Common Lisp. 14:48:34 stassats`: Ok 14:48:57 whitedawg [~whitedawg@122.172.182.133] has joined #lisp 14:48:58 I have zero investment in the semantics or debate of "What is a Lisp". 14:49:08 -!- hiato is now known as maximum_yellow 14:49:22 Zhivago: the lineage from interlisp, maclisp and so on is more evident 14:49:28 How about this: I wanted to learn a Lisp-like language. On the advice of a friend, I choose The Little Schemer and Scheme. 14:49:28 *telemachus* shrugs 14:49:39 That reminds me of discussions about why linux isn't a unix. 14:50:06 a person new to the subject might go to the wikipedia entry for scheme, which states that it is a lisp 14:50:10 scheme is just "let's take parenthesis and infix notation", everything else is completely different 14:50:22 so someone passionate about the difference would do well to start there 14:50:24 eh, prefix notation 14:50:48 Yeah, like ... lambda functions. 14:51:12 EarlGray [~mitra@cl-148.led-01.ru.sixxs.net] has joined #lisp 14:51:15 Oh, wait -- closures were introduced into CL from Scheme ... 14:51:48 many languages have anonymous functions 14:51:51 And all of that lexical scoping stuff. 14:52:05 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 14:52:05 (This is getting a bit trolltastic. Sorry that I mentioned it.) 14:52:22 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 14:52:24 You've been sniffing paint too long and reading too little to really think that scheme is completely different to the other lisps apart from syntax. 14:52:50 it's always nice talking to Zhivago, he has the most original insults 14:52:51 (you and me both, telemachus ) 14:53:22 maximum_yellow: My bad. Apologies. I'll remember for the future. 14:53:36 Or I'll leave and not come back. Either way, problem solved. 14:53:36 Hows it going, browndawg? 14:53:44 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has left #lisp 14:53:59 NikolaiDante [~nikolaida@unaffiliated/knighterrant] has joined #lisp 14:54:04 telemachus: Hey, no, wait. I was saying that I also feel bad for bringing this up. No man, I'm not doing anything but siding with you 14:54:09 -!- NikolaiDante [~nikolaida@unaffiliated/knighterrant] has left #lisp 14:54:11 telemachus: maximum_yellow <--> hiato 14:54:15 mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has joined #lisp 14:54:16 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has quit [Changing host] 14:54:16 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 14:54:36 whitedawg: Long time no see 14:54:45 -!- maximum_yellow is now known as hiato 14:54:54 (should fix things) 14:55:02 maximum_yellow: No worries. Didn't think you were. Just saying. 14:55:15 telemachus: my point is that Scheme and Common Lisp are so different, that you could have as well picked up JavaScript 14:55:33 browndawg: You done with the algo-class yet? :) 14:55:39 stassats`: And my point is that I disagree strongly. But not enough to argue. 14:55:47 So let's agree to disagree, ok? 14:56:01 whitedawg: gtalk. Lets not get kicked out of #lisp. 14:56:24 telemachus: why do you think that it's bad to argue? 14:56:41 I did not say that I believed that. 14:56:55 And you really are trolling me. So, all due respect, but I'm done. Have a great day. 14:56:58 -!- telemachus [telemachus@gateway/shell/xzibition.com/x-edmdxafdfjayraqk] has left #lisp 14:57:21 oh joy 14:57:51 PuercoPo` [~user@190.41.173.174] has joined #lisp 14:58:09 -!- PuercoPo` is now known as PuercoPop 15:00:10 browndawg: You seen chaumau around lately? 15:02:58 -!- Ralt_ [~ralt@89-92-204-200.hfc.dyn.abo.bbox.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:03:02 -!- browndawg [~browndawg@117.201.183.16] has left #lisp 15:03:52 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-148.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:06:02 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-37-62.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:06:20 -!- Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:06:47 Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 15:06:54 -!- whitedawg [~whitedawg@122.172.182.133] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:06:55 -!- Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:08:30 yakov [~androirc@ip-83-149-2-84.nwgsm.ru] has joined #lisp 15:10:07 whitedawg [~whitedawg@122.179.50.160] has joined #lisp 15:11:25 pnpuff [~Eternit9a@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 15:12:57 -!- antonv [5d7d31f9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.49.249] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:19:24 xcombelle [~xcombelle@atoulouse-551-1-78-23.w92-146.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 15:20:18 -!- p_l|phone is now known as p_l 15:21:32 -!- hagish_ [~hagish@87.142.43.88] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:22:29 brguy [~idonteven@187.113.55.66] has joined #lisp 15:23:06 -!- BlastHardcheese [chris@pdpc/supporter/active/blasthardcheese] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:26:08 Bacteria [~Bacteria@115-64-180-132.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 15:26:24 -!- yakov [~androirc@ip-83-149-2-84.nwgsm.ru] has quit [Quit: AndroIRC - 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http://colloquy.mobi] 17:16:30 shrey [~shreyas@117.221.29.132] has joined #lisp 17:18:54 BlastHardcheese [chris@pdpc/supporter/active/blasthardcheese] has joined #lisp 17:20:46 substitute [~substitut@97-113-98-140.tukw.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 17:21:05 brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-142-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:24:26 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-37-62.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:24:41 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-37-62.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:27:14 -!- shrey [~shreyas@117.221.29.132] has left #lisp 17:28:01 -!- nilsi [~nilsi@c83-253-22-138.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:30:21 segv- [~mb@dslb-088-075-158-044.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 17:34:04 -!- whitedawg [~whitedawg@122.179.60.239] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:39:52 urandom__ [~user@p54B0E66D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:43:20 is there an especially good library for handling dates in human readable format? Cliki points to chronicity. 17:43:36 Does anyone have experience with it? 17:44:39 -!- LiamH [~none@96.231.220.53] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:44:51 -!- pnpuff [~Eternit9a@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has left #lisp 17:45:16 KingsKnighted [~quassel@c-174-52-149-13.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:45:30 Kaisyu [~Kaisyu@183.109.111.173] has joined #lisp 17:46:07 well, I get chronicity to exhaust heap on (chronicity:parse "in three days") 17:46:39 can it parse "once in a blue moon"? 17:48:06 i'll check 17:49:07 no :-) 17:49:09 prxq: I used google calendar's API for that, once. 17:49:51 pkhuong: from cl? 17:50:40 yes. Login, POST natural language text, GET parsed events. 17:51:03 -!- Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-72-66-99-183.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:51:18 -!- xliweinan [~liweinan@123.123.56.30] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:52:04 pkhuong: do you by chance have code you can share? :-) 17:53:29 -!- hagish_ [~hagish@p578E2B58.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:53:58 I have some event-posting code at http://discontinuity.info/~pkhuong/cl-gcal.lisp, along with kludgey translation hacks. 17:54:55 pkhuong: great. Thanks! 17:55:38 gendl [~gendl@c-68-41-192-171.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:56:06 -!- sellout- [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:56:20 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-37-62.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:56:37 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-37-62.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:58:16 zajn [~zajn@c-67-182-61-90.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:59:26 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:59:44 prxq: looking at it, quickadd returns some xml with all the parsed data. 18:00:10 pkhuong: it also adds an event to the calendar, right? 18:01:07 right. 18:01:10 NikolaiDante [~nikolaida@unaffiliated/knighterrant] has joined #lisp 18:01:20 -!- NikolaiDante [~nikolaida@unaffiliated/knighterrant] has left #lisp 18:01:39 i see 18:03:18 -!- setmeaway [~setmeaway@118.45.149.239] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:04:08 setmeaway [oosool3@118.45.149.239] has joined #lisp 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[~kiuma@2-230-138-74.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 19:43:35 Blkt [~user@82.84.159.98] has joined #lisp 19:44:47 ahungry [~null@99-40-10-216.lightspeed.livnmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:49:04 -!- Ralt_ [~ralt@89-92-204-200.hfc.dyn.abo.bbox.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:50:42 howdy all 19:52:12 hi hungry 19:54:19 -!- KingsKnighted [~quassel@c-174-52-149-13.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:54:23 -!- Buglouse [~Buglouse@unaffiliated/Buglouse] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:55:27 -!- seangrove [~user@c-71-202-126-17.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:57:57 -!- dtw [~dtw@pdpc/supporter/active/dtw] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 19:59:49 LiamH [~none@96.231.220.53] has joined #lisp 20:03:05 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-101-251.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:03:14 nachtwandler [~nachtwand@p5089CC3D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:03:26 Buglouse [~Buglouse@unaffiliated/Buglouse] has joined #lisp 20:04:24 johnstorey [~johnstore@adsl-76-254-35-109.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:06:44 -!- Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:06:51 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@213.129.230.10] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:09:06 -!- johnstorey [~johnstore@adsl-76-254-35-109.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:09:48 fantazo [~fantazo@213.129.230.10] has joined #lisp 20:13:44 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 20:18:32 -!- zulu_inuoe_ [~quassel@184.89.111.53] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:19:17 so, basically, we do not have a viable date handling lib in cl. :-/ 20:21:48 -!- xcombelle [~xcombelle@atoulouse-551-1-78-23.w92-146.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:24:17 I assume you've tried local-time. Where does it fall short of your needs? 20:24:40 sabra: he asked for natural language date parsing 20:25:12 although i'll gladly admit that "we" does not include my, when it comes to "viably date handling lib" 20:25:30 well, net.telent.date does halfway ok. 20:25:36 ah 20:25:40 H4ns: you have one?? 20:25:50 prxq: i use local-time, i don't need more 20:25:51 :) 20:25:55 actually, net.telent.date does 90% ok 20:26:04 is there a way to use flet inside a macro? the following is obviously wrong: 20:26:07 http://paste.lisp.org/display/134418 20:26:28 francogrex [~user@109.134.204.151] has joined #lisp 20:26:34 gendl: you need to move the flet into the macro expansion 20:26:37 gendl: the flet has to be inside the generated code 20:26:45 gendl: maybe you want to use gensyms for the names. 20:26:59 roger. 20:27:00 -!- ahungry [~null@99-40-10-216.lightspeed.livnmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:27:28 I haven't looked at net.telenet.date. What is it missing in terms of natural language date parsing? 20:28:00 -!- JPeterson [~JPeterson@s213-103-211-58.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 20:28:14 I am looking for a specific release of ECL (version 11), on the sourceforge I find the official release which is defective when building static executable on windows, only one git release was good but I can't find it back. Is it possible to access all the git revisions (historically)? 20:28:50 francogrex: of course. that is kind of the point of a revision control system. 20:29:57 H4ns: good. How? any pointers? 20:30:16 francogrex: google for "git tutorial" 20:30:21 for example all revisions and commits for version 11.1 ? 20:31:08 Vicfred [~Futaba@189.232.24.149] has joined #lisp 20:31:18 sabra: it's a bit buggy. (local-time:format-timestring t (local-time:universal-to-timestamp (net.telent.date:parse-time "mar 30, 2015, 15:00"))) returns "2015-03-30T16:00:00.000000+02:00" 20:31:55 while the same with "jan" instead of "mar" does ok 20:32:19 (the problem is that in the first case, the hour is 16:00, while it should be 15:00) 20:33:26 H4ns: and prxq: does this look better?: http://paste.lisp.org/+2VPV 20:34:03 gendl: superficially yes - i just wonder what you need the local functions for 20:34:15 gendl: ah. that's what the comments are for :) 20:34:25 H4ns: just use lambda's eh? 20:34:32 johnstorey [~johnstore@adsl-76-254-35-109.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:34:49 i just think it will be clearer to use the little named functions than to use inline lambdas here 20:35:00 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-101-251.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 20:35:07 gendl: sure, i've overlooked that you've not put the actual function bodies in yet. 20:35:08 although somehow i've avoided flet in 22 years of CL programming until today 20:35:23 for some reason today i decided that here would be a nice idea to use flet's 20:36:01 sabra: it seems the problem is in interacting with encode-universal-time 20:38:41 hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@46.233.194.222] has joined #lisp 20:38:41 -!- hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@46.233.194.222] has quit [Client Quit] 20:38:52 JPeterson [~JPeterson@s213-103-211-58.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 20:40:01 prxq: I see what you mean. 20:40:56 sabra: net.telent.date is not the problem. (local-time:format-timestring t (local-time:universal-to-timestamp (encode-universal-time 0 0 15 30 3 2015 -1))) returns the same: "2015-03-30T16:00:00.000000+02:00" 20:41:27 prxq: what's your local-time:*default-timezone*? 20:41:39 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 20:42:07 ...and (decode-universal-time (encode-universal-time 0 0 15 30 3 2015 -1)) returns 16 as the hour 20:42:49 -!- johnstorey [~johnstore@adsl-76-254-35-109.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:42:50 H4ns: # 20:43:16 -!- Fare [~fare@173.9.65.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:43:19 what does (decode-universal-time (encode-universal-time 0 0 15 30 3 2015 -1)) return for the time zone? 20:44:07 uhm, interesting. 20:44:21 -1 20:44:37 if i provide the timezone to the decode thing it returns the correct hour 20:45:09 "kaum macht man's richtig, funktioniert's" 20:45:17 :D 20:45:55 H4ns: i somehow expected to only have to provide the timezone to the decoder 20:46:04 sorry, encoder 20:46:39 decode-u-t seems to figure out the timezone, but fails to act on it, or am I missing something? 20:47:20 "If time-zone is not supplied, it defaults to the current time zone adjusted for daylight saving time." 20:47:31 -!- sabra [~wol@67.174.222.215] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 20:49:17 H4ns: so it should return the correct hour. It does so if I use 2013 instead of 2015 20:49:48 Ralt_ [~ralt@89-92-204-200.hfc.dyn.abo.bbox.fr] has joined #lisp 20:50:03 prxq: the behavior is consistent across sbcl and ccl, so my guess is that we're not understanding timezone handling in cl correctly. 20:50:10 weird. 20:50:30 well, local-time should have done the right thing, though. 20:50:45 -!- honkfestival [~honkfesti@198-84-183-94.cpe.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 20:51:05 *H4ns* hates time zones 20:51:24 i can understand 20:52:04 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:52:21 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:54:05 this works, however: (decode-universal-time (encode-universal-time 0 0 15 30 3 2015)) 20:54:22 it means that providing the time zone somehow isn't equivalent to it gessing it 20:55:53 brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-142-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:56:28 -!- JPeterson [~JPeterson@s213-103-211-58.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:56:34 well, the day for the dst transition in 2013 is different from 2015 20:57:57 march 31 in 2013, march 29 in 2015 20:57:57 (encode-universal-time 0 0 15 30 3 2015) guesses timezone -1, and does something. 20:58:07 -!- silenius [~silenius@brln-4db9af72.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:58:17 (encode-universal-time 0 0 15 30 3 2015 -1) gets timezone -1, and does something else 20:58:31 stassats`: well spotted 20:59:33 so you're encoding it with the wrong time-zone for 2015 21:00:11 well, not me. net.telent.date :-) 21:01:04 stassats`: but (decode-universal-time (encode-universal-time 0 0 15 30 3 2015 -1)) returns the correct timezone (-1) 21:01:14 Jambato [~Jambato@2a01:e35:2f15:c40:211:d8ff:fe7d:2c4a] has joined #lisp 21:01:16 weird 21:02:08 H4ns: how about this: http://paste.lisp.org/+2VPW 21:02:29 prxq: DST doesn't change the time-zone, look at the daylight-p value 21:03:13 testing -- seems to work for the exports at least... 21:03:29 m7w [~chatzilla@178.172.204.226] has joined #lisp 21:03:50 JPeterson [~JPeterson@s213-103-211-58.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 21:04:38 stassats`: i know. But it seems wrong that it gets it right if I don't provide the argument, but wrong if I do provide the correct one. 21:05:23 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-101-251.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:05:26 -!- Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:05:29 that's how it's specified 21:05:36 -!- Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:05:44 stassats`: where do you get that from? 21:05:46 testing :use appears broken, please ignore previous paste fixing 21:05:55 prxq: from clhs 21:06:23 well, then it's a useless function 21:06:34 because it will bite you randomly 21:06:46 prxq: you just need to use it correctly. 21:07:05 how? if you supply it a time-zone, you should be supplying the right one 21:07:17 stassats`: i do 21:07:29 then it just ignores the dst 21:07:42 but i cannot provide dst 21:08:02 gendl: i'd implement it as a function using make-package 21:08:02 why would you? 21:08:09 i'd just have to kludge it up, you mean? (if dst (+ timezone 1) timezone) 21:08:16 or something? 21:09:24 stassats`: I'm saying, 15:00 on march 30, 2015. So that's what it should do 21:11:08 -!- yacks [~yacks@180.151.36.170] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:11:34 -!- Corvidium [~cosman246@c-24-56-228-105.customer.broadstripe.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:11:40 prxq: then don't supply a time-zone 21:11:58 Fare [~fare@173-9-65-97-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 21:12:21 how do you expect it to determine the dst from the time-zone? russian kaliningrad time has -3 time-zone year round, but eastern european time has -3 in the winter, -4 in the summer. so if you pass it -3, which one do you mean? 21:12:42 -!- brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-142-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:13:14 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@2-230-138-74.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:13:43 rather, -2 in the winter, -3 in the summer 21:13:51 stassats`: well, i see. So the telent thing just should pass no timezone unless specified by the date string 21:15:05 well, the thing is slightly kludged up, it seems. 21:15:58 and before 2011 kaliningrad time was the same as eet 21:16:20 so, you should use a library when you can specify the actual time-zone you want to use, not an offset 21:16:29 s/when/where/ 21:17:15 thing is, I want to write "15:00, march 30, 2015" and mean that time here 21:17:58 then don't use net.telent.date 21:18:09 and then there were none 21:18:40 H4ns: but i want it to work like a defpackage drop-in replacement... 21:18:58 gendl: noone prevents you from calling the function from a macro 21:19:28 gendl: but i'd not implement it as a complex macro, but as a complex function that is invoked from a simple macro 21:19:51 I can get all revisions of specifically ecl 11.1 because they are not tagged as such! 21:20:05 H4ns: roger. 21:20:28 -!- eldariof [~CLD@pppoe-206-24-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has quit [] 21:20:41 are you implementing defpackage? the conflict resolution and getting the order in which clauses are executed is a non-trivial matter 21:20:43 H4ns: wilco. 21:21:49 stassats: mainly what I'm implementing is a defpackage for redefining an already-existing package. 21:22:25 stassats: if the package is being defined fresh, it pretty much just resolves to standard defpackage. 21:22:35 and if not, what happens? 21:23:01 stassats: if the package already exists, then it tries to do additional exports, use's, shadowing-import-froms, etc. 21:23:04 Jubb [~ghost@pool-108-28-62-61.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:23:24 stassats: and that behavior is not defined by the ANSI spec anyway, apparently --- 21:23:47 kiuma [~kiuma@2-230-138-74.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 21:24:26 -!- ISF [~ivan@189.61.220.247] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:24:33 why do you want to redefine packages then? 21:25:00 stassats: well, we had that discussion here last night 21:25:18 the implementations do the right thing, if not, ask for a refund 21:25:24 ISF [~ivan@189.61.220.247] has joined #lisp 21:25:45 not like you're going to be redefining them in production, only during development 21:26:07 stassats: there is no "right thing" according to ANSI 21:26:34 stassats: our bootstrapping process does involve redefining some packages, 21:27:01 stassats: e.g. "ghost" packages which are defined up front as empty packages, packages which get extended when certain modules are loaded... 21:27:11 stassats: I guess we can argue that this is all a bad thing,... 21:27:30 stassats: but today I'm just trying to get my system bootstrapped on ABCL, 21:27:45 stassats: not re-engineer our whole bootstrap process 21:28:35 stassats: so i'm making a define-package which will consistently update existing package definitions, independent of CL implementation... 21:29:03 i'd suggest to work with implementors to fix their defpackage 21:29:24 stassats: according to what spec? 21:29:25 or you'll end up with gendl-lisp, not common lisp 21:29:33 gendl: work out a spec 21:29:57 which does the most common sensible thing 21:32:03 but if your goal doesn't include the ability to be understood and modified by outsiders, then i guess it's ok to have your own package and module system 21:32:29 some people have their own object systems and whatnot 21:32:45 stassats: everything I have is built on top of CL 21:32:53 stassats: i'm not trying to redefine anything of CL 21:33:15 -!- pirateking-_- [~piratekin@unaffiliated/pirateking---/x-2885143] has quit [Quit: pirateking-_-] 21:33:21 stassats: i'm just making my own operator for some functionality which my system happens to need 21:33:27 i thing gendl just wants to get it to work first 21:33:30 cl-python is built on top of cl, but it's a whole different programming language 21:33:47 well Gendl is a superset of CL 21:34:03 and then to "fix" abcl 21:34:12 either way, ehu was here talking about the package thing yesterday anyway, wasn't he? 21:34:33 Bike: yes, but maybe gendl has an urgent itch 21:35:11 I was here talking about the package thing yesterday. We decided to update my gdl:define-package. which is what i'm doing now. 21:35:53 but yes, Gendl is a superset of CL, and it provides some new operators like define-object 21:35:59 which compiles into CLOS stuff 21:36:32 but i'm not redefining any Common Lisp 21:36:48 then, well, people in #lisp can't really relate to the problems you're facing 21:37:00 it just provides additional operators you can work with, if you choose to do so. 21:37:31 stassats`: his problem is that defpackage behaves differently in abcl than in other variants 21:37:35 that's it 21:38:20 stassats: On the contrary, have found that the people here almost without exception can indeed relate to any of the problems I bring up here. 21:38:31 prxq: well, why not fix it? 21:38:53 and i feel guilty that I don't spend more time in here answering questions, to pay back for all the value i've pulled from here. 21:38:54 stassats`: why not fix.. what? abcl or his software? 21:38:59 abcl 21:39:13 and yesterday announced a New Year resolution to do so.. :) 21:39:24 perhaps he is in a hurry and wants to get stuff working first 21:39:41 The point is, it would be bogus to ask ABCL people to "fix" anything 21:39:48 their implementation is already compliant with ANSI 21:40:09 of course, that's why you provide a patch 21:40:18 -!- francogrex [~user@109.134.204.151] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:40:28 it would be bogus to provide a patch. 21:40:32 there is nothing to "fix" in ABCL 21:40:33 gendl: no 21:40:37 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@213.129.230.10] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:40:45 and explain, that other implementation do so, it's not specified, but would be nice to play along 21:41:01 gendl: in fact, ehu seemed to think it made sense to make abcl behave like other impls 21:41:41 garbage reclamation is not specified in the CLHS, but hey, everybody is doing it 21:42:05 of course, if you have gendl:define-package anyway, i don't think specifying it to do something obvious but not in the CLHS is going to do much harm 21:42:07 or that vector are implemented as linked lists, or that hashtables are not just disguised alists 21:44:44 I think the ABCL folks are well aware of the issue: http://lists.common-lisp.net/pipermail/armedbear-devel/2012-April/002364.html 21:45:17 I don't feel qualified to propose a global standard approach for redefining packages with cl:defpackage 21:46:22 they may be aware, but did anybody send a nice patch and they rejected it? 21:47:50 ehu's an abcl dev and seemed fine with it yesterday, xach was just clarifying the clhs position 21:48:46 i'll send them my little gdl:define-package 21:48:52 if they can get some value out of it, i'll be thrilled. 21:50:13 pirateking-_- [~piratekin@unaffiliated/pirateking---/x-2885143] has joined #lisp 21:50:52 people usually don't like when you send them a piece of code and say "maybe you'll be able to adapt it" 21:50:53 Matt_S_G [~Matt_S_G@84.235.91.104] has joined #lisp 21:51:02 brguy [~idonteven@187.113.55.66] has joined #lisp 21:51:11 now, a nice patch which can be cleanly applied is a different matter 21:51:12 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 21:52:02 i usually respond to random code snippets that i receive with "please send a pull request" 21:53:13 seangrove [~user@c-71-202-126-17.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:54:21 -!- pirateking-_- [~piratekin@unaffiliated/pirateking---/x-2885143] has quit [Client Quit] 21:54:29 -!- Forty-3 [~seana11@outbound.terrawi.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:55:00 -!- _0bitcount [~ulises11@82.158.225.51.dyn.user.ono.com] has left #lisp 21:55:35 pirateking-_- [~piratekin@unaffiliated/pirateking---/x-2885143] has joined #lisp 21:56:05 pdponze [~pierre@37.0.45.21] has joined #lisp 21:56:53 -!- p_l is now known as p_l|phone 21:57:36 Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has joined #lisp 21:59:14 -!- s0ber [~s0ber@114-36-233-2.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:01:12 so, i fixed net.telent.date. Any ideas where the patch should go? 22:02:18 -!- nan_ [~user@178.233.216.230] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:02:49 -!- Fare [~fare@173-9-65-97-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:03:13 -!- Ralt_ [~ralt@89-92-204-200.hfc.dyn.abo.bbox.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:03:54 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@2-230-138-74.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:04:07 Bacteria [~Bacteria@115-64-180-132.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 22:04:17 i see the ABCL defpackage is adapted from CMUCL 22:04:29 i assume the SBCL one is also from CMUCL 22:04:39 so it will be interesting to see where the two diverged... 22:04:57 because the SBCL one does redefinitions in an intuitive manner 22:08:50 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 22:09:25 -!- Matt_S_G [~Matt_S_G@84.235.91.104] has quit [Quit: Matt_S_G] 22:09:26 merk_ [~tmanny@31.45.209.134] has joined #lisp 22:11:23 Ralt_ [~ralt@89-92-204-200.hfc.dyn.abo.bbox.fr] has joined #lisp 22:11:32 Not really. It's known to be a bit of a PITA because it signals a full warning when a package already exists and its state deviates from a re-evaluated defpackage form. 22:11:50 annoying ass hell 22:11:52 as 22:12:29 I'm looking at SBCL's 'package-at-variance warning now... 22:13:55 well, full-warnings are ok, it's just that ASDF doesn't like full-warnings, and only on SBCL 22:13:59 Compile-file will return "failure" when a warning (which is not a style-warning) is signalled during compilation. Which again makes ASDF barf. 22:16:49 on SBCL you can do (handler-bind (#+sbcl(sb-int:package-at-variance #'muffle-warning)) (defpackage  ))) 22:17:32 we have macro: without-package-variance-warnings which has that directive for #+sbcl 22:25:07 tetzco1 [~tetzco@2001:a60:1218:1001:226:bbff:fe03:b2e9] has joined #lisp 22:26:09 so anyway, before presuming to offer a patch for cl:defpackage, it's clear that I have tons more to understand about what is the "right thing" 22:26:30 -!- tetzco [~tetzco@ppp-188-174-37-40.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:27:48 hello hello 22:28:03 is anyone somehow versed in assembly? 22:28:12 I'm trying to write a basic disassembler in common lisp, but I have trouble understanding how to get the bytes -> instructions transformation 22:28:24 I have these tables available http://ref.x86asm.net/geek32.html but I don't know how to read them... 22:29:58 x86 has a pretty complicated instruction set. 22:30:12 Ralt_: I've written a 6502 emulator/assembler/disassembler that you might find instructive. It's about 600 lines of code total, the disassembler is ~50. http://github.com/redline6561/cl-6502 22:30:23 haha, thanks :-) 22:30:30 err. 800. 22:31:18 x86 is pretty complicated, it has a lot of different instruction structures 22:31:55 -!- phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:32:07 Ralt_: the link at the top of that page explains how to read the table. 22:32:08 there's prefixes, opcodes, registers, r/m, immediates... a good start might be to assemble just a few simple instructions and see if you can get those to work 22:32:11 -!- black_joe [~nate@pool-72-73-248-89.cmdnnj.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 22:32:25 yeah, trying to understand, and it looks like the bytes depend on the instructions 22:32:30 Bike: oh? looking 22:32:45 Do you mean that the length of an instruction (in bytes) can vary? if so, you're right. 22:32:57 Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 22:33:08 yeah that's what I meant 22:33:23 and it also depends on what's after and before, right? 22:33:27 johnstorey [~johnstore@adsl-76-254-35-109.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:33:54 the instructions also change to which memory address the next instruction goes, don't they? 22:33:56 -!- johnstorey [~johnstore@adsl-76-254-35-109.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 22:34:28 stassats`: "The Little Schemer" was titled "The Little Lisper" originally. " what makes you think that Scheme is a Lisp?" 22:34:34 johnstorey [~johnstore@adsl-76-254-35-109.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:34:54 Ralt_: well sure, that's the point of branches 22:35:11 Ralt_: you might want to dig up some intel manuals, they're probably online somewhere 22:36:05 Yeah, x86 has variable instruction length 22:36:08 I think this is it http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/intel/_dataBooks/1981_iAPX_86_88_Users_Manual.pdf 22:36:09 1-15 bytes per instruction 22:36:24 sabrac [~user@67.174.222.215] has joined #lisp 22:36:25 1981? You sure about that? 22:36:29 stassats`: Check http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/small-cl-pgms/intersection-r5rs-common-lisp-emacs-lisp/ " telemachus: Scheme is substantially [] useful" 22:37:58 Bike: http://codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/4732/emulate-an-intel-8086-cpu :) 22:38:36 oh, well, that will probably make things substantially easier for you. the instruction set has been added to quite a bit &c 22:38:52 S-A-T-U-R, D-A-Y, NIGHT! <---greetings everybody 22:39:36 ltbarcly [~ltbarcly@pool-71-116-94-137.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:39:44 Bike: yeah, that's the thing: it's a limited subset of the 8086 cpu, so it should be quite "easy" to write a disassembler for everything 22:39:50 stassats`: I agree with you, the staticness of the scheme specification is disgusting. Nonetheless, scheme implementation may provide more introspection and reflexivity than specified, (and just as CL implementation, since CL has also a couple of restrictions (or missing features) to help compilers). Anyways, nothing removing scheme from the lisp category IMO. 22:40:34 Ralt_: the architecture described is much, much simpler than the real thing - so using that table, especially the geek table, is probably just going to confuse you 22:40:45 drewc: greetings. 22:41:06 Bike: oh... 22:41:24 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-71-237-234-93.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:41:42 Ralt_: i mean, think about it, x86 is a popular architecture and has been worked on for thirty years, of course it's going to be much different than it was in '79. 22:41:55 oh yeah 22:41:57 no that's ok 22:42:14 having something overly complex wouldn't help me much :) 22:42:29 isn't there a simple table saying: this instruction takes these bytes, this other so many bytes, etc? 22:44:07 Ralt_: i think you mostly want the po (primary opcode) column of the table 22:44:58 how to know whether it's one-byte opcode or 2-bytes opcode? 22:46:42 Ralt_: two-byte ones are in the second table. you really should check that link on how to read it: http://ref.x86asm.net/index.html#Using-HTML-Editions 22:46:43 ltbarcly1 [~ltbarcly@pool-71-116-94-137.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:46:48 and last question that'll let me use the table (I think): what's the "value of the opcode extension"? 22:46:57 -!- add^_ [~add^_@m212-152-11-221.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: The Garbage Collector got me...] 22:47:31 «Some opcodes (only a few) depend on Opcode Extension Field in ModR/M byte. Using this field, the opcode is actually extended by three bits.» 22:47:35 Bike: yeah I'm reading, there's just a lot of words I don't understand. Looking up on google et al, but well... 22:49:33 many instructions are variable length 22:49:37 -!- ltbarcly [~ltbarcly@pool-71-116-94-137.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 22:49:43 like, for example 22:49:46 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 22:49:48 add eax, eax 22:49:56 add eax, [eax+ebx*4] 22:50:03 add eax, [eax+ebx*4+72] 22:50:07 add eax, [eax+ebx*4+720] 22:50:12 I think those are all different lengths. 22:50:32 the first is just a register, the second is putting memory in the r/m byte, the third adds an immediate constant, the fourth switches from an 8-bit to 32-bit constant 22:51:06 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@50.1.48.145] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 22:51:17 heh, I have a lot to learn... 22:51:20 01 c0 add eax,eax 22:51:20 03 04 98 add eax,[eax+ebx*4] 22:51:20 03 44 98 48 add eax,[eax+ebx*4+0x48] 22:51:21 03 84 98 d0 02 00 00 add eax,[eax+ebx*4+0x2d0] 22:51:26 yup :3 22:52:35 -!- snowylike [~sn@91-67-171-156-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de] 22:52:57 did x86 have offset addressing that complicated in 1979? 22:53:13 Bacteria_ [~Bacteria@115-64-180-132.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 22:53:20 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-18-48.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 22:53:32 I'm not sure 22:53:40 what? 22:53:42 I don't know about any pre-386 stuff 22:54:02 the 8086 is Intel's first x86 microprocessor. 22:54:09 and it was out in 1979 22:54:17 -!- Bacteria [~Bacteria@115-64-180-132.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:54:17 -!- Bacteria_ is now known as Bacteria 22:58:17 (I mean that I don't know which instructions came when, pre-386 wise) 22:58:33 iirc, variable instruction length was already in 8088 22:58:38 the stackoverflow link has which instructions they'll be using 22:58:46 -!- Jambato [~Jambato@2a01:e35:2f15:c40:211:d8ff:fe7d:2c4a] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:58:52 http://developer.apple.com/library/mac/#/legacy/mac/library/documentation/DeveloperTools/nasm/nasmdocb.html I know this has listing of when instructions were added 22:59:14 it's not stackoverflow, it's codegolf.stackexchange :P 22:59:20 but yeah. 22:59:23 so like for example 22:59:24 IMUL r/m16 ; o16 F7 /5 [8086] 22:59:24 IMUL reg16,r/m16,imm8 ; o16 6B /r ib [186] 22:59:24 IMUL reg32,r/m32,imm8 ; o32 6B /r ib [386] 23:00:20 I need to figure out a way to read the bytes of an instruction and no more. Right now, with this code, I can't see where the "newline" is drawn https://github.com/Ralt/intel-8086-emulator/blob/master/disassembler.lisp 23:00:34 oh well. Got a lot of stuff to have fun with :-) 23:01:10 you probably have to read the first byte, then maybe read some more based on the contents of that byte 23:01:47 yeah... I[ll go with a simple implementation to start off 23:07:07 -!- mr_vile is now known as Tanami 23:07:18 Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-72-66-99-183.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:09:24 prxq: there's nothing to fix about defpackage in abcl, it's perfectly conforming. 23:09:34 -!- hugod [~user@bas1-montreal08-1279585004.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:09:50 prxq: the point is that you cannot use defpackage on the same package twice and expect anything useful from it. 23:10:05 -!- rdqfdx [~rdqfdx@78.90.88.244] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:10:36 prxq: Usually, packages are defined only once when you quickload a system that defines them. But while developping, we often reload or reevaluate defpackage forms. This is not conforming. 23:11:49 prxq: the right thing to do, if you want to be able to edit your package defining file and reload it, in a conforming way, is what gendl has done, to write one's own macro that will either call defpackage the first time or use the package functions to change the package state as you want the following times. 23:12:36 (An alternative, if that's what you want, is to delete the package before reevaluating defpackage; during development in the REPL, I often just do that). 23:15:11 gendl: com.informatimago.common-lisp.lisp-reader.package:defpackage is not AGPL3, but MIT or BSD something. So you can easily copy-and-paste the macro and the function it calls 23:15:56 hugod [~user@bas1-montreal08-1096686757.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 23:16:50 gendl: you may have to edit the function to suit your semantic needs. 23:17:11 -!- Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-72-66-99-183.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:18:38 -!- stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-002-066.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 23:19:12 brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-142-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:20:51 -!- ltbarcly1 [~ltbarcly@pool-71-116-94-137.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:21:39 Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-72-66-99-183.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:23:44 pjb: thank you, I will let you know what comes out of it. 23:24:17 honkfestival [~honkfesti@198-84-183-94.cpe.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 23:24:47 -!- brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-142-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 23:25:35 -!- agumonkey [~agu@183.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:25:57 AlbireoX [~AlbireoX@99-136-83-34.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:27:17 antonv [5d7d31f9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.49.249] has joined #lisp 23:30:09 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:31:55 brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-142-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:32:52 normanrichards [~normanric@70.114.215.220] has joined #lisp 23:35:36 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f7554a1.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 23:36:11 -!- honkfestival [~honkfesti@198-84-183-94.cpe.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 23:39:46 kilon_alios [~kilon@178.128.27.154.dsl.dyn.forthnet.gr] has joined #lisp 23:40:10 -!- kilon [~kilon@unaffiliated/thekilon] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:41:14 -!- pdponze [~pierre@37.0.45.21] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:41:23 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 23:43:16 -!- dnolen [~user@cpe-74-64-61-245.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:44:19 -!- paul0 [~vrsmn@177.42.34.27] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:47:23 huangjs [~huangjs@69.84.244.131] has joined #lisp 23:48:06 -!- op_4 [~nine@41-135-76-179.dsl.mweb.co.za] has quit [Quit: Nothing so gives the illusion of intelligence as personal association with large sums.] 23:49:33 -!- phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:51:49 msmith [~msmit297@adsl-74-190-144-48.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 23:52:26 meiji11 [~user@d50-99-49-90.abhsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 23:53:30 hello all, quick question. I have a simple lisp unit test (define-test works (assert-equal t (print "working"))) but I keep getting unbound variable works. lisp-unit is included in the package def. any thoughs? 23:53:34 -!- pirateking-_- [~piratekin@unaffiliated/pirateking---/x-2885143] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:54:06 probably define-test is written incorrectly, check the expansion for unquoted works 23:54:23 (macroexpand '(define-test works (assert-equal t (print "working")))) 23:54:51 -!- kilon_alios [~kilon@178.128.27.154.dsl.dyn.forthnet.gr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:55:31 kilon [~kilon@unaffiliated/thekilon] has joined #lisp 23:57:51 -!- ehu [~ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:59:11 -!- LAMMJohnson [~john@user-5AF432F7.broadband.tesco.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:59:36 -!- tetzco1 [~tetzco@2001:a60:1218:1001:226:bbff:fe03:b2e9] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]