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host closed the connection] 08:04:44 -!- Demosthenex [~Demosthen@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:05:32 Demosthenex [~Demosthen@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 08:07:42 -!- xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.180.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 08:10:24 -!- lufu [~user@5.254.133.97] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:10:28 Indecipherable [~Indeciphe@41.13.28.225] has joined #lisp 08:11:01 -!- Demosthenex [~Demosthen@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:12:09 Demosthenex [~Demosthen@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 08:12:41 -!- Indecipherable [~Indeciphe@41.13.28.225] has quit [Client Quit] 08:14:30 After I have been a bit beginning to learn lisp, I have this question: 08:15:18 Would it be fairly correct to say that scheme and lisp is nowadays pretty similar except for the macro system and that several functions are slightly renamed? 08:15:40 Or is there any other really big difference? 08:15:41 yes/no/maybe 08:16:16 they're clearly closer to each other than that they are to Java for example 08:16:24 engblom: there are several other differences, like multiple namespaces and continuations. 08:16:26 but scheme is a lisp-1 and CL is a lisp-2 08:17:08 and CL is after Scheme on time line 08:17:09 What are continuations? 08:17:38 CL is more practical 08:17:45 something scheme has that CL doesn't. 08:18:21 That is because CL dont want to those thing 08:18:24 if you take a particular implementation like racket, scheme is just as practical as CL 08:18:31 -!- Demosthenex [~Demosthen@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:18:42 to do practical things in CL, you also need non standardised libraries 08:18:44 sw2wolf: r6rs is way newer than ansi. 08:19:14 -!- Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:19:31 which one implement r6rs ? 08:19:37 racket ? 08:19:51 If you would look at CLOC (I know, bad metric), which one do you think requires less code in most cases? To me it looks like they would require about the same... 08:20:06 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 08:20:19 Demosthenex [~Demosthen@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 08:20:47 sw2wolf: fine, r5rs is also newer. 08:21:05 Guest31550 [~chatzilla@111.79.190.19] has joined #lisp 08:21:17 In fact, CLOS is much comfortable than racket's java like object system ? 08:21:53 there are schemes with CLOS like OO systems too 08:22:25 really ? which implementation 08:24:24 i am using stumpwm. There is no such a gereral app in Scheme ... 08:24:55 angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has joined #lisp 08:25:33 sw2wolf: meroon and tinyclos 08:25:40 Somebody is developing a WM using racket. but it is at VERY beginning phase: https://github.com/Metaxal/RWind/ 08:25:59 -!- Demosthenex [~Demosthen@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:26:02 Then there is this one: http://scwm.sourceforge.net/ 08:26:17 engblom: i think the differences people care most about in scheme vs cl is more the "community" stuff, like the existence of libraries and standards. if you're just talking about core semantics they're probably both flexible enough that one can do all the same as the other, e.g. you can implement hygenic macros with unhygenic ones 08:26:41 Demosthenex [~Demosthen@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 08:26:54 yes 08:27:17 Both are lisp dialect 08:28:00 if you want some fun, check out Erik Naggum's vehement diatribes arguing that scheme is not a lisp 08:28:47 I can really see benefits from both. The biggest benefit I have seen from Racket is a cross-platform GUI included. 08:29:21 How would a CL developer do a GUI for both *nix and windows? 08:29:25 yes. most people who want that in CL just buy lispworks 08:30:01 -!- __class__ [~class@99-105-56-217.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:30:19 am0c [~am0c@am0c.broker.freenet6.net] has joined #lisp 08:30:40 bitonic [~user@5e09a749.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 08:33:33 -!- boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:35:09 -!- Bike [~Glossina@67-5-240-27.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 08:37:34 -!- Kvaks [~kvaks@112.158.189.109.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:37:39 PCChris [~PCChris@dhcp-199-74-100-93.res-hall.northwestern.edu] has joined #lisp 08:38:06 cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has joined #lisp 08:38:20 nowadays don't you just build a html5/javascript UI that runs in a (mainly webkit) browser? 08:38:26 __class__ [~class@99-105-56-217.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 08:38:45 if you want portable UI, I think that's a sensible way to do it. 08:39:16 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-53-93.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 08:39:18 -!- Fullma [~fullma@82.66.69.246] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:41:08 perhaps. I think you're underestimating the inertia in corporate IT environments 08:43:34 Kvaks [~kvaks@112.158.189.109.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 08:43:36 oh we're talking corporate environments, I though it was about being practical :) 08:43:56 kennyd [~kennyd@78-1-167-94.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 08:44:46 *mal_* appreciates some practical things like earning a living. Eating is kind of addictive. 08:46:29 eat to live rather than live to eat and all the jazz 08:48:07 -!- Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:48:50 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 08:52:34 -!- Guest31550 [~chatzilla@111.79.190.19] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:57:15 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:57:39 hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has joined #lisp 08:57:39 -!- hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has quit [Changing host] 08:57:39 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 09:05:20 -!- sw2wolf [~czsq888@171.216.202.212] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:05:34 sw2wolf [~czsq888@171.216.202.212] has joined #lisp 09:05:51 -!- benny [~user@i577A1BDE.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 09:10:52 -!- k0001 [~k0001@host38.181-1-163.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:11:08 v0lZy [~Thunderbi@mail.silk-group.net] has joined #lisp 09:11:31 stalk, stalk, stalk, stalk @ axion 09:11:31 :D 09:11:36 -!- v0lZy [~Thunderbi@mail.silk-group.net] has left #lisp 09:11:54 k0001 [~k0001@host38.181-1-163.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 09:12:22 foreignFunction [~niksaak@94.27.88.125] has joined #lisp 09:16:51 pnpuff [~aeiou@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 09:17:28 -!- samrat [~samrat@49.244.25.6] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:18:12 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-170.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:18:22 -!- ramus [~ramus@c-50-132-91-53.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:22:29 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 09:24:48 stardiviner [~stardivin@122.236.247.76] has joined #lisp 09:25:13 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 09:25:51 -!- holycow [~holycow@69.172.160.27] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 09:28:58 Xizor [~Xizor@c83-252-198-185.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 09:33:06 hkBst_ [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 09:33:16 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:33:22 k0001_ [~k0001@host62.190-226-194.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 09:33:24 -!- veemon [~veemon@unaffiliated/veemon] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:36:27 -!- k0001 [~k0001@host38.181-1-163.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 09:38:16 -!- k0001_ [~k0001@host62.190-226-194.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 09:42:22 -!- hkBst_ [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 09:42:26 hkBst__ [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has joined #lisp 09:46:36 dbh [~user@182.55.2.111] has joined #lisp 09:48:12 -!- mcguitan83 [~user@completel-1.anevia.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 09:50:44 wxmaxima (http://andrejv.github.com/wxmaxima/index.html) is not in QuickLisp, is it because it's not working well or because that just didn't happen? 09:52:13 maybe it is because it depends on wxwidgets as a build dependency? 09:52:42 could explain too 09:53:26 https://github.com/andrejv/wxmaxima/blob/master/INSTALL 09:53:32 ZDroid [~ZDroid@unaffiliated/zdroid] has joined #lisp 09:53:39 well yeah, it reaches far out from the lisp environement 09:53:57 -!- ZDroid [~ZDroid@unaffiliated/zdroid] has left #lisp 09:55:42 -!- sw2wolf [~czsq888@171.216.202.212] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 09:57:40 xpoqz [~xpoqz@203.80-203-124.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 09:59:15 holycow [~holycow@69.172.160.27] has joined #lisp 10:00:45 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-170.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 10:03:28 wasn't wxmaxima a mainly C++ project that just talks with maxima? 10:03:55 yup, no lisp to be seen 10:04:35 nope, *one* file 10:04:42 not enough for QL, sorry 10:05:36 hehe 10:09:33 xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.180] has joined #lisp 10:10:41 simplechat 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[~normanric@70.114.215.220] has joined #lisp 14:10:12 -!- bitonic [~user@dyn1215-231.wlan.ic.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:10:41 bitonic [~user@dyn1215-231.wlan.ic.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 14:10:43 Snipe [~caglil12@C17.etud.dauphine.fr] has joined #lisp 14:10:47 Hi 14:11:24 (let((na (min 8 (round(+(/(* (horloge-i a) 7)(lg-cyc-m a))1))))) 14:11:31 what does it mean pleas ? 14:12:10 Snipe: what do you mean, "mean"? 14:12:30 I don't understand this line 14:12:33 what this does 14:12:41 it's the code of someone 14:12:58 what does "let" ? 14:13:09 Snipe: right. it is a variable binding. the variable is called "na" and is bound to the value of some calculation 14:13:40 Snipe: but really, you need to learn lisp if you want to understand it. you can't just come here, paste some code and expect us to teach you everything from zero on. 14:14:07 ok thx 14:14:13 I understand now 14:14:33 it's the let which not clear 14:15:53 so it's true -- one can write fortran in any language... 14:16:12 Snipe: http://l1sp.org you can type symbols here, and get what they mean. 14:17:16 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@70.114.215.220] has quit [] 14:17:39 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 14:18:07 http://l1sp.org/search?q=%2Fclisp%2Flet 14:18:11 Snipe: Also, if you use emacs, you can use it to look up symbols directly from your code, I have a local install of the language spec, and w3m browser installed, so I don't have to leave emacs :) 14:18:53 Snipe: http://l1sp.org/cl/let 14:21:58 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 14:23:39 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@80-95-90-249.pool.digikabel.hu] has joined #lisp 14:23:39 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@80-95-90-249.pool.digikabel.hu] has quit [Changing host] 14:23:39 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 14:23:47 -!- Ralt [~Ralt@eup38-1-82-247-184-72.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:25:39 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:26:29 -!- LiamH [~none@129-2-129-145.wireless.umd.edu] has left #lisp 14:26:45 tensorpudding [~tensorpud@108.87.20.77] has joined #lisp 14:27:48 -!- jjkola_work [~jjkola@fw-hki.ixonos.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:30:45 -!- echo-area [~user@182.92.247.2] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:32:28 LiamH [~none@129-2-129-145.wireless.umd.edu] has joined #lisp 14:32:35 -!- LiamH [~none@129-2-129-145.wireless.umd.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 14:33:53 francisl [~flavoie@199.84.164.114] has joined #lisp 14:34:47 francisl_ [~anonymous@199.84.162.167] has joined #lisp 14:36:03 -!- francisl_ [~anonymous@199.84.162.167] has quit [Client Quit] 14:36:22 noob Q: i'm using trivial-http and i got a stream back, but I don't know how to get the string out of it :) 14:36:33 just use drakma instead 14:37:16 jjkola_work [~jjkola@fw-hki.ixonos.com] has joined #lisp 14:38:22 stassats: hmm, maybe i should 14:38:56 not maybe, definitely! 14:39:13 ^ 14:43:34 ok :) 14:43:35 thanks 14:44:54 -!- hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:46:10 -!- xpoqz [~xpoqz@203.80-203-124.nextgentel.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:46:59 -!- sellout [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:47:15 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 14:51:21 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:51:39 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 14:55:21 mm, drakma depends on half of the world 14:55:50 drakma is pretty standard, and fine software 14:55:59 and you have quicklisp, so who cares about deps? 14:56:11 i have quicklisp? :) 14:56:22 -!- pavelpenev [~quassel@85-130-11-8.2073813645.shumen.cablebg.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:56:31 if you don't, then you should. 14:56:36 people cannot be pleased, some complain that there isn't enough libraries in CL, others that there's too much 14:57:00 don't get me wrong, i like libraries. but i don't like managing them 14:57:03 others? that's a lucky community already :) 14:57:07 quicklisp sounds like what i need 14:57:28 rullie: quicklisp is the lisp dream come true 14:58:20 does seem so 14:58:30 i'm still using asdf with manual git cloning... 14:58:51 quicklisp uses asdf 14:58:55 we had to do that once 14:58:57 it was insanity 14:59:13 i'm still doing it, with automated git cloning! 14:59:14 oingo-boingo? :) 14:59:38 -!- fmu [~^fmu@unaffiliated/fmu] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:59:41 findiggle [~kirkwood@50-194-56-154-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 15:03:43 nice, quicklisp is quick 15:04:04 i should complain more often to get more jewels out of you guys :) 15:05:06 -!- fasta [~xchat@xs8.xs4all.nl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:06:06 rullie: at least you listen to suggestions, which is more than I can say about many complainers. 15:06:48 if I had a nickle for every person that shows up in here complaining about having to use SLIME, I'd be able to fund QL's hosting by myself 15:07:04 gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has joined #lisp 15:07:30 -!- Snipe [~caglil12@C17.etud.dauphine.fr] has left #lisp 15:07:36 Well, you don't *have* to use slime 15:07:50 and you don't even to have to use CL 15:07:58 nor Emacs 15:07:59 you don't have to use slime to use CL 15:08:04 nor emacs. exactly. 15:08:12 that said, usually you're better off using them :) 15:08:17 stardiviner [~stardivin@122.236.240.206] has joined #lisp 15:08:24 My next project, I think, is going to be making a nice simple listener interface for sbcl 15:08:55 to be distributed in sb-contribs 15:09:39 dlowe: why a "listener" interface? What is the purpose? 15:09:48 a crummy limited text editor with a repl 15:09:58 ok..nice 15:10:12 The purpose is to let people jump in without configuration 15:10:49 quicklisp-slime-helper is about that 15:10:53 that's a dubious goal 15:11:02 what about the lispbox project? 15:11:11 it's not a dubious goal to make a ladder with bottom rungs 15:11:49 ladders with bottom rungs just gets you people who cling to the bottom rung for a second before letting go. 15:11:51 first, it'll take too much effort, then people will still complain that it's not good enough 15:11:52 the first step to learning CL shouldn't be to learn emacs 15:12:10 people will find anything to complain about 15:12:19 so I'm noticing this very minute 15:12:27 well use the CCL integrated editor then, right? 15:12:31 :D 15:12:37 dim: on Linux? 15:12:51 LispWorks Personal Edition? 15:13:07 dlowe: and i'm criticizing, not complaining 15:13:23 dlowe: i like it. make it ansi terminal based and emacs compatible, please Ö= 15:13:28 can you have CCL cocoa support with GNUStep? 15:13:44 fair enough. and I expect such criticism, because this channel is self-selected for people for whom these things weren't a barrier 15:13:47 H4ns: is readline emacs compatible enough? 15:13:56 dlowe: I agree with you. learning Emacs is only an optional. 15:13:57 dim: no. 15:14:04 dlowe: I'd say just go for it. 15:14:20 then I think quicklisp-slime-helper is the answer 15:14:34 dim: slime is teh suck 15:14:38 Having to learn emacs is one of the things that holds back cl conversion rate. 15:14:42 Yeah. Well. Don't everyone hold your breath, cause I've got an 18 month old. It might take a while. 15:14:47 hehe, let's revive genera 15:14:49 dim: maybe a lot of answers... to choice the better! 15:14:57 dlowe: :-) 15:15:16 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@50-196-148-102-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 15:15:17 dim: no. let's have an editor that people can hack on while learning lisp 15:15:27 -!- niels2 [~niels@p4FD6DD81.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8] 15:15:27 dlowe: i hate emacs myself, but to solve that you need to be more ambitious, a simpleminded sbcl contrib console contrib won't solve it, people still will be suggested "if you want the real thing, use slime" 15:15:39 that means learning things twice! 15:15:44 so, you need to make the real thing 15:15:44 grrossi [bd3ce7e7@gateway/web/freenode/ip.189.60.231.231] has joined #lisp 15:15:46 H4ns: are you familiar with Tom Tromey's effort to port Emacs to Common Lisp? 15:15:50 kpreid [~kpreid@50-196-148-102-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 15:15:54 The last Boston lisp meeting really got me thinking about barriers to entry 15:15:57 Hey, a question 15:16:06 Why does "cond: all question results were false" is an error? 15:16:15 Can't a cond do nothing ? 15:16:15 dim: i've heard about it. i'd prefer a cl-only emacs in the long run. 15:16:28 H4ns: http://tromey.com/blog/?p=709 and http://tromey.com/blog/?p=751 15:16:28 grrossi: which lisp is that? 15:16:29 grrossi: is it an error or a style-warning? 15:16:32 dlowe: barriers of entry are almost entirely irrelevant if the product is compelling enough. 15:16:38 racket 15:16:43 the main problem with a new CL based Emacs is compatibility with the zillion elisp code out there 15:16:45 fmu [~^fmu@unaffiliated/fmu] has joined #lisp 15:16:47 stassats: you don't have to learn things twice if you have a dumb editor that already follows windows/mac conventions 15:16:50 grrossi: go to #scheme then 15:16:53 people will jump through hoops to use the most horrible crap if they think it'll amke them leet. 15:16:59 Meh, ok 15:17:05 dim: i do not see that as a problem. 15:17:10 and I'm looking to reach people who aren't necessarily on irc 15:17:12 grrossi: #racket 15:17:16 dim: i'm using emacs as an editor, not as a religion. 15:17:28 dim: i've got cl for a religion, if anything. 15:17:56 sykopomp: I don't think that is correct at all. 15:18:15 sykopomp: or rather, saying "enough" makes it a tautology 15:18:30 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:18:33 how much is enough? well, if barriers to entry matter, clearly it's not enough 15:18:43 dim: people who want to use it for CL don't need zillions of elisp code 15:19:24 i've recently tried to train one person for CL 15:19:52 dlowe: I'd love to see more effort by experienced lispers put into writing software that makes others jealous and makes companies think it'll make them successful. 15:19:54 so I've told him to edit files in his preferred editor, and run (load "file.lisp") from command line 15:19:58 Emacs is well known.. maybe no motivation to put hands on it. a new simple editor written entirely in cl would be a nice idea. 15:19:59 for the beginning 15:20:09 sykopomp: one has to choose one's battles 15:20:18 the main asset in that respect in Lisp Land seems to be a small group of blowhards that mostly don't even do CL anymore. 15:20:20 because learning emacs + slime + cl at the same time is impossible 15:20:37 is that so? 15:20:45 H4ns: then hack your own thing. if you want someone else than yourself using your cl emacs, you will need to support their setup. Even if that's a small and non involved setup, you will have to support *any* setup. or just use it for yourself only. 15:20:46 antonv: it's not, I did it 15:20:59 stassats: I don't want to have to use 2 editors, thank you 15:20:59 fe[nl]ix: it's you 15:21:01 sometimes eclipse is better than emacs (not for cl indeed) 15:21:03 well, climacs was intended to be the cl emacs 15:21:06 all you need to know is C-c C-c and how to switch buffers 15:21:22 dlowe: I agree. I don't entirely disagree with lowering the barrier of entry, but I feel like it's a bit of a red herring. :( 15:21:27 or at least certain approaches to it are. 15:21:31 dim: well, right, that's in line with "people will find anything to complain about" 15:21:34 fmu^ [~^fmu@unaffiliated/fmu] has joined #lisp 15:21:43 stassats: well, emacs is slightly explosive. You hit the wrong keys and suddenly bizarre things happen. 15:21:55 fe[nl]ix: I don't expect enought amount of interest to learn emacs and slime before he see first results from CL 15:22:10 stassats: I'm just trying to understand which problem we're solving with a random Emacs clone that happens to be live hackable in CL, and I'm not finding it 15:22:18 fe[nl]ix: dont't expect it from avearage person 15:22:45 why not? 15:22:46 anyway, I'm doing it. then we can get empirical evidence to argue over instead of empty speculation 15:22:54 dlowe: it's been interesting working with Erlang. I get the impression that it sees wider usage in more companies than CL, and it's an incredibly warty language with a relatively high barrier of entry. 15:22:54 prxq: then you do C-h l and C-h k to understand what happened 15:22:56 all other editors require the same amount of learning curve 15:23:03 its not like eclipse is actually easier than emacs 15:23:04 dim: because emacs is best by definition, i get you. 15:23:06 anyone who's used rebar can probably identify 15:23:08 jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@144.64.18.80] has joined #lisp 15:23:09 sykopomp: it's got some nice magic 15:23:10 quite the opposite 15:23:10 Kate + C-c C-c would be great 15:23:28 dim: Oh I use emacs for almost everything, but many people do not. 15:23:37 H4ns: because Emacs has lots of users already 15:23:47 programming in lisp with emacs is best by definition... 15:23:56 dlowe: It magically makes me pull my hair sometimes. 15:23:57 dim: right. just like windows. 15:23:57 -!- fmu [~^fmu@unaffiliated/fmu] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:23:57 -!- fmu^ is now known as fmu 15:23:58 *dlowe* bets there are more people editing text with MS Word than emacs 15:23:58 synchronicity is a single problem worth ditching emacs for 15:24:00 again, I'm not saying your idea is not good, it might well be the best, I'm just not understanding why 15:24:17 stassats: what do you mean? 15:24:19 a slow cvs server? let's hang the whole shebang, baby! 15:24:33 prxq: no concurrency 15:24:36 i see. 15:24:40 -!- Kvaks [~kvaks@112.158.189.109.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 15:24:47 -!- bsamograd [~user@samograd.ca] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:24:55 but the point I'm trying to make is that erlang isn't micro-optimized for initial hobby programming. It concentrates more on utilities for production deployment and the like. 15:25:14 C/C++ much less, even. 15:25:20 kiuma [~kiuma@static-217-133-17-91.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 15:25:55 dlowe: why not make a web-interface? 15:26:12 cause installing SBCL is mighty complicated 15:26:17 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 15:26:45 *dlowe* uses apt-get install sbcl these days 15:26:53 a web textual interface ... :) 15:27:03 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:27:27 just a swank backend for codemirror: http://codemirror.net/ 15:27:29 stassats: you have a point, though. that would mean being able to ditch all sorts of interface code 15:27:55 Ralt [~Ralt@eup38-1-82-247-184-72.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 15:28:14 H4ns: integrate slime into codemirror, I think you mean 15:28:25 dlowe: maybe that. 15:28:35 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.32.82] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:28:50 mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.32.82] has joined #lisp 15:29:14 dlowe: on the up side, that'd give a very low barrier of entry. on the down side, one will then have to hack javascript instead of elisp 15:29:37 dlowe: although, that doesn't seem mutually exclusive, so, why not both? 15:30:12 -!- jrajav [~jrajav@167.68.114.6] has quit [Quit: phunq, sandwich store loop, WHAT NO UNIVERSE] 15:30:46 we already have a swank backend 15:31:09 Snipe [~caglil12@C17.etud.dauphine.fr] has joined #lisp 15:31:15 hi again :D 15:31:54 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:32:02 my teacher doesn't want that I use setq... He wants that I use the return of functions... but it's ugly... How to indent ? 15:32:19 do you know a tool which indent directly ? 15:32:41 Snipe: emacs 15:32:47 Snipe: emacs does the standard indentation for common lisp, I think 15:32:53 :D 15:32:56 yes 15:32:59 I use emacs 15:33:00 *dlowe* feels silly for saying that in context. 15:33:06 -!- sigjuice [~sigjuice@184-106-98-73.static.cloud-ips.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:33:12 Snipe: didn't your teacher tell you about setting up lisp programming environment? 15:33:13 but it doesn't do it 15:33:24 jdz: no 15:33:35 sigjuice [~sigjuice@184-106-98-73.static.cloud-ips.com] has joined #lisp 15:33:37 bad teacher 15:33:42 I mean I don't know how to do it with emacs, to indent directly 15:33:50 there is a function ? 15:33:56 Snipe: make a region, then M-x indent-region 15:33:59 Snipe: C-M-a C-M-q 15:34:20 Snipe: or just use tab 15:34:52 sellout [~Adium@70.96.9.235] has joined #lisp 15:34:53 I do like the idea of telling people to run sbcl-web-editor and then go to http://localhost:1111/ 15:35:23 here is sooooooooo much that can go wrong with that 15:35:32 worked for rails 15:35:58 i wouldn't be holding rails up as an example of anything really 15:36:03 blackwol` [~blackwolf@ool-4574e84c.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 15:36:08 "something that got popular really fast" 15:36:18 and yet remained shit? 15:36:40 dlowe: i like the idea, too 15:37:02 I want to indent this function for example 15:37:06 http://paste.lisp.org/display/133932 15:37:14 I also like the idea of people running sbcl-editor and getting an editor and a repl 15:37:20 *dlowe* shrugs. 15:37:23 but even when I select the region and do M-x indent-region 15:37:26 It's all vapor right now anyway 15:37:29 it doesn't indent it 15:37:32 Snipe: you need to add newlines. 15:37:34 -!- sellout [~Adium@70.96.9.235] has quit [Client Quit] 15:37:34 -!- blackwolf [~blackwolf@ool-4574e84c.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:37:42 sellout [~Adium@70.96.9.235] has joined #lisp 15:38:04 normanrichards [~normanric@72-48-145-180.static.grandenetworks.net] has joined #lisp 15:38:22 Snipe: there is no emacs function to turn crappy lisp into gourmet lisp, sadly 15:38:43 sbcl's pretty print! 15:38:58 ahahah 15:39:07 i can see how the upcasing will please! 15:39:19 how can I learn to write gourmet lisp ? 15:39:30 Snipe: step one: read a good book on lisp, back to back 15:39:34 http://paste.lisp.org/display/133932#1 15:39:38 Snipe: step two: come here, ask again. 15:40:00 yes but I have a project to do :( 15:40:05 not just new lines, split into several functions 15:40:06 and I don't have time 15:40:25 Snipe: ah. you want to learn without the learning! 15:40:26 ah, the old consulting offer caper! 15:40:43 Snipe: I'm sure many people here here have great hourly rates (: 15:41:03 some even talk french 15:41:05 what book should I read ? 15:41:06 fmu^ [~^fmu@unaffiliated/fmu] has joined #lisp 15:41:11 minion: pcl 15:41:12 pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 15:41:13 -!- samrat [~samrat@49.244.5.165] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:41:14 minion: gentle 15:41:14 gentle: "Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation" is a smoother introduction to lisp programming. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/ 15:41:41 -!- fmu [~^fmu@unaffiliated/fmu] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:41:42 -!- fmu^ is now known as fmu 15:42:04 -!- Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:43:08 minion: cookbook 15:43:09 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``cookbook''. 15:44:00 minion: do not worry! 15:44:00 please stop playing with me... i am not a toy 15:44:37 :) 15:44:40 natechan [~natechan@50-192-61-46-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 15:46:42 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 15:47:30 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-170.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:48:13 there's also the Norvig's paper about style in lisp 15:48:26 I don't know if it's considered a good reference or something to avoid, though 15:48:31 it is good 15:48:49 http://norvig.com/luv-slides.ps 15:49:05 all I know is that I really like reading it, and using some of its advices 15:49:39 the one I readily used was to always use let* until you have a good reason to prefer let, and I didn't have one yet in the little code I wrote :) 15:51:37 it says about consistency 15:51:47 i always use let and flet, only let* and labels when needed 15:51:48 -!- Snipe [~caglil12@C17.etud.dauphine.fr] has left #lisp 15:52:21 stassats: +1 15:52:42 and it even says that, that most people think that 15:53:54 samrat [~samrat@49.244.165.223] has joined #lisp 15:54:43 tsuru` [~charlie@adsl-74-179-29-185.bna.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 15:55:17 yes it says about consistency, and IIRC it says also that let* is less surprising or easier to reason about, but maybe that's just me 15:55:27 I mean my remembering about it 15:55:49 on page 19, it doesn't say that 15:55:57 it implies to prefer let and flet 15:56:36 labels usually tells "hey, there's gonna be some recursion, brace yourself" 15:58:02 it even has a section named "FLET to avoid code duplication" 15:58:04 not labels 15:58:20 i try to follow the "use the most specific operator" rule. except for setq, which i generally avoid. 15:58:39 -!- jjkola_work [~jjkola@fw-hki.ixonos.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:59:05 add^_ [~add^_@m90-141-53-227.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 16:00:01 jjkola_work [~jjkola@fw-hki.ixonos.com] has joined #lisp 16:01:41 H4ns: generally? i see no reason to not avoid it 16:02:05 -!- PCChris [~PCChris@dhcp-199-74-100-93.res-hall.northwestern.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:02:19 stassats: i generally avoid it although it is more specific than setf when operating on a symbol bound to a variable. 16:02:44 well, "generally" means you sometimes don't avoid it 16:03:12 this is #lisp, you know, you need to be precise in your expressions! 16:03:44 ok. scratch the "generally". i avoid it. 16:04:01 please also accept my sincere apologies for using ambiguous language. 16:04:09 good, i'm content now! i did my civic duty to correct you! 16:04:20 i fully retract "generally". in no way i meant to imply that i sometimes use setq. 16:04:32 even when implementing setf? 16:04:40 puchacz [~puchacz@46-65-36-47.zone16.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 16:05:18 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-170.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 16:06:01 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-170.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:07:00 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 16:07:48 victor_lowther [~victorlow@143.166.116.80] has joined #lisp 16:08:55 -!- c_arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-jvrayfwxrhkjqslo] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:09:24 Kvaks 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joined #lisp 17:56:55 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 17:59:58 jjkola_work [~jjkola@fw-hki.ixonos.com] has joined #lisp 18:01:57 -!- ignas [~ignas@office.pov.lt] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:04:17 so, i'm supposed to avoid setq even when binding just a symbol? 18:04:40 yes 18:04:42 use setf macro? consistency is the issue? 18:04:48 there's no point in using setq 18:05:06 -!- teggi [~teggi@113.172.63.47] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:05:08 unless you're implementing setf or you have a strong aversion to the letter F 18:05:13 i thought it may be faster 18:05:17 ok then 18:05:32 no, it can't be faster 18:05:58 -!- Praise [~Fat@unaffiliated/praise] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 18:06:07 -!- sellout [~Adium@70.96.9.235] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:07:25 Praise [~Fat@unaffiliated/praise] has joined #lisp 18:10:14 Indecipherable [~Indeciphe@41.30.7.68] has joined #lisp 18:10:33 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 18:12:20 -!- asedeno_work [asedeno@nat/google/x-bhgpsfjgfpecjtkd] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:12:38 stassats: why is (setq a b) worse than (setf 'a b)? 18:12:56 your setf is wrong 18:13:14 and setq is worse because it's not better 18:14:25 Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 18:17:56 Alice3 [~Alice@cpc3-grim12-0-0-cust856.12-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 18:18:14 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@72-48-145-180.static.grandenetworks.net] has quit [] 18:18:40 -!- EventHorizon [~asdf@107-200-38-103.lightspeed.tulsok.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:19:27 jasom: it's better to use setf, because it's more general. 18:19:27 -!- foreignFunction [~niksaak@94.27.88.125] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:19:35 -!- egn_ [~egn@li101-203.members.linode.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:19:43 -!- qlkzy [qlkzy@2a01:7e00::f03c:91ff:feae:4a4a] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net] 18:19:45 jasom: and even setq has to use setf when you give it a symbol macro instead of a variable. 18:20:07 asedeno_work [asedeno@nat/google/x-nbuuovvckoxminml] has joined #lisp 18:20:08 qlkzy [qlkzy@2a01:7e00::f03c:91ff:feae:4a4a] has joined #lisp 18:20:57 and it's also better to use setf than rplaca, rplacd, m-v-setq 18:22:15 foreignFunction [~niksaak@94.27.88.110] has joined #lisp 18:23:25 -!- Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:27:39 *jasom* uses setq rplaca and rplacd 18:27:39 huh, somebody confused let* to think that it assigns bindings concurrently, using several threads 18:27:50 jasom: shame on you then 18:28:03 stassats: not at all surprising since "in parallel" means something different to many people today 18:28:14 dim: right now, ccl cannot use GNUstep. There's some lines of codes in the objc-bridge in ccl to that effect, but it's not working. The main problem as I see it, is that the objc-bridge in ccl is totally dependent on the internals of ccl! I've spent two week this summer trying to extract it from ccl, but it's not complete. 18:29:20 dim: Perhaps a better way would be to design a clean Objc-bridge over the three main Objective-C runtimes using CFFI. (The three runtimes are close but there are some differences). This would let us use Objective-C from any CL implementation with CFFI, on any platform (Cocoa, GNUstep, Cocotron). 18:29:37 -!- am0c [~am0c@am0c.broker.freenet6.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:29:56 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 18:32:04 xpoqz [~xpoqz@80.203.124.203] has joined #lisp 18:32:34 gnustep wasn't something i would choose to use, did that change? 18:32:36 Daisy [~Daisy@c-3d42e555.143-16-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 18:33:14 Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 18:34:11 sabalaba [~Adium@c-76-21-4-232.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:36:00 jasom: it means to me "lines which do not intersect" 18:41:00 -!- bitonic [~user@dyn1212-96.wlan.ic.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:41:46 stassats: You could use GNUstep to write an OpenStep application running on MacOSX, Linux, Unix, and MS-Windows. But yes, like anything else, it would probably mean you'd have to invest some work on GNUstep itself too. 18:43:30 am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has joined #lisp 18:44:12 sellout [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:44:16 -!- nyef_ [~nyef@pool-70-109-133-141.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:45:53 peterhil` [~peterhil@gatekeeper.brainalliance.com] has joined #lisp 18:47:58 -!- Indecipherable [~Indeciphe@41.30.7.68] has quit [Quit: used jmIrc] 18:50:11 -!- Daisy [~Daisy@c-3d42e555.143-16-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:50:34 Daisy [~Daisy@c-3d42e555.143-16-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 18:51:05 -!- nforgerit [~nforgerit@HSI-KBW-149-172-198-162.hsi13.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Quit: nforgerit] 18:54:36 user123abc [~sally@c-67-171-79-251.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:58:47 qptain_Nemo [~qN@89.207.216.208] has joined #lisp 19:02:30 slyrus [~chatzilla@173-228-44-92.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 19:02:33 stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-241-112.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 19:05:58 -!- Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:06:03 -!- edgar-rft [~GOD@HSI-KBW-091-089-000-047.hsi2.kabelbw.de] has quit [Quit: game over] 19:06:37 macrobat [~fuzzyglee@h-17-133.a328.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 19:08:34 -!- kuzary [~who@gateway/tor-sasl/kuzary] has quit [Quit: return 0;] 19:09:31 Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has joined #lisp 19:11:47 hijarian [~hijarian@92.255.253.213] has joined #lisp 19:12:33 jjkola_work_ [~jjkola@fw-hki.ixonos.com] has joined #lisp 19:12:35 Hi guys! Are there anyone who used the xpath library successfully? 19:13:11 k0001 [~k0001@host239.186-108-161.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 19:13:19 hijarian: yes. 19:13:56 Please, I need to throw some xpath queries onto the HTML page which I fetch by Drakma. 19:14:04 Let me show the code I used so far. 19:14:24 -!- jjkola_work [~jjkola@fw-hki.ixonos.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:14:24 -!- jjkola_work_ is now known as jjkola_work 19:14:39 (defvar *document*) 19:14:49 hijarian: no, use paste.lisp.org 19:14:57 ...okay. 19:15:06 Will know about it from now on. 19:15:27 jjkola_work_ [~jjkola@fw-hki.ixonos.com] has joined #lisp 19:15:59 -!- Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:17:45 -!- p_l|backup [~pl@94.23.145.245] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:19:11 H4ns: http://paste.lisp.org/display/133934 19:19:24 -!- jjkola_work [~jjkola@fw-hki.ixonos.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:19:24 -!- jjkola_work_ is now known as jjkola_work 19:20:08 It's maybe just that I don't really understand how to define namespaces with `xpath:with-namespaces` 19:21:50 Basically, I need to do the following: 1. Fetch some particular remote page. 2. Grab all divs from there by the xpath selector (I would prefer CSS selectors but xpath will suffice too). 19:22:33 rpg [~rpg@23-25-144-217-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 19:22:52 fe[nl]ix: ping? 19:23:31 ehu [~ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 19:24:18 hijarian: if you name the html namespace "html", you need to use that prefix in your xpath, too - i think. but xpath and namespaces is somewhat of a tricky thing, as you've recognized already 19:24:25 Blkt [~user@82.84.188.5] has joined #lisp 19:24:38 -!- grrossi [bd3ce7e7@gateway/web/freenode/ip.189.60.231.231] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:25:30 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.123.18] has joined #lisp 19:25:45 lufu [~user@5.254.133.60] has joined #lisp 19:25:55 m7w [~chatzilla@178.172.234.123] has joined #lisp 19:26:01 H4ns: do I even need to use namespaces at all? 19:26:18 hijarian: if your response has a namespace declaration, then yes. 19:26:28 rpg: pong 19:26:41 fe[nl]ix: Are you maintaining Arnesi as well as FiveAM? 19:26:44 H4ns: Well, it certainly has. 19:27:01 hijarian: did you look at the documentation? (http://common-lisp.net/project/plexippus-xpath/examples.html) 19:27:17 rpg: no, I only removed that dependency from FiveAM 19:27:34 good evening everyone 19:27:39 hi Blkt 19:27:40 hijarian: it has some examples. i remember that i have worked things out last time i tried, but i don't have the details available right now, sorry. 19:27:41 H4ns: Of course. However, I just recalled that it has "namespaces" section. 19:28:04 hi fe[nl]ix 19:29:38 Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 19:29:38 rpg: what library is still using arnesi ? 19:29:57 killerboy [~mateusz@217.17.38.43] has joined #lisp 19:30:03 fe[nl]ix: Don't know of one. We haven't fully moved over to the latest FiveAM from upstream (you). 19:30:29 We have long had a version that was locally patched, and have been using that while FiveAM seemed unmaintained. 19:31:09 do you still have patches that need merging ? I'll make a release soon 19:31:25 -!- lufu [~user@5.254.133.60] has left #lisp 19:31:42 H4ns: Last question. Should I really use the chtml:parse and then cxml:make-dom-builder or I better use cxml exclusively? Parsing HTML as XML will require to workaround the DOCTYPE declaration, because for HTML it's remote and the docs mention this case explicitly. 19:31:44 fe[nl]ix: We have some patches to make it produce more useful information. I'll have to merge from upstream first, and then pass back some patches. 19:32:06 Indecipherable [~Indeciphe@41.28.101.221] has joined #lisp 19:32:14 in what way more useful ? 19:33:17 H4ns: Thank you very much for pointing back at the examples, I would walk in circles for many hours otherwise. 19:33:25 fe[nl]ix: We found that in odd conditions when tests weren't working, it could be hard to find out which tests were and weren't run. 19:33:37 hijarian: i have no answer regarding chtml - i've only used xml with xpath myself. 19:33:42 Also we provided methods for collecting timing info on ACL. 19:34:07 H4ns: Okay, thanks anyway. 19:34:56 jewel [~jewel@105-236-20-105.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:35:43 fe[nl]ix: Nice! You took out the deflookup stuff, which always used to belch out a ton of useless warnings.... 19:35:54 -!- paul0 [~paulo@177.132.100.156] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:36:10 jjkola_work_ [~jjkola@fw-hki.ixonos.com] has joined #lisp 19:38:00 -!- jjkola_work [~jjkola@fw-hki.ixonos.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:38:00 -!- jjkola_work_ is now known as jjkola_work 19:39:54 fe[nl]ix: the laudable desire to detect accidental re-use of names collided with the EVAL-ALWAYS to mean that loading FiveAM could lead to generating useless warnings.... 19:40:56 you mean in arnesi's deflookup ? 19:41:38 -!- pnpu1f [~aeiou@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has left #lisp 19:43:13 Slivka [~Slivka@31.40.53.196] has joined #lisp 19:43:33 paul0 [~paulo@177.96.55.84] has joined #lisp 19:43:44 YES. 19:43:52 HG` [~HG@wprt-4d09a272.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 19:43:55 *rpg* loses control of his caps lock key... 19:44:20 *sykopomp* never thought arnesi could be so exciting! 19:44:45 We try to have a zero tolerance policy for warnings in our builds. 19:45:53 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.214] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:47:55 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:48:16 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 19:49:56 rpg: could you please turn the time-measure code into a separate library ? other people might want to use it independently 19:51:21 Looks like ARNESI had COLLECT-TIMING 19:51:50 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:52:00 Is there some other commonly-used CL library that provides a function like that? 19:52:03 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has joined #lisp 19:52:05 s/function/macro 19:53:02 Mike3620 [~chatzilla@208.83.126.102] has joined #lisp 19:53:41 btw, what do you mean by "timing" ? strictly the CPU duration of the tests, or GC statistics as well ? 19:54:09 if it's not too complicated you could use FFI directly 19:54:30 even without depending on CFFI 19:55:00 fe[nl]ix: I think the arnesi code was a portability layer that pulled the information out of different implementations. 19:55:47 fe[nl]ix: I think the easiest thing would be to pull time.lisp out of arnesi and make it a standalone library. 19:56:03 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 19:58:23 Cowmoo [~Cowmoo@cambridge-vxty.basistech.com] has joined #lisp 19:58:32 -!- Cowmoo [~Cowmoo@cambridge-vxty.basistech.com] has left #lisp 19:58:46 zerwas [~zerwas@unaffiliated/zerwas] has joined #lisp 19:59:19 Cowmoo [~Cowmoo@cambridge-vxty.basistech.com] has joined #lisp 19:59:21 -!- Cowmoo [~Cowmoo@cambridge-vxty.basistech.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:00:03 brown [user@nat/google/x-fzisjnxnagymajgx] has joined #lisp 20:00:07 Cowmoo [~Cowmoo@cambridge-vxty.basistech.com] has joined #lisp 20:00:13 -!- Mike3620 [~chatzilla@208.83.126.102] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:00:28 -!- brown is now known as 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[Quit: francisl] 20:12:39 francisl [~flavoie@199.84.164.114] has joined #lisp 20:13:43 ehu [~ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 20:15:04 daniel2 [~danielmg@201.209.38.229] has joined #lisp 20:15:13 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:15:28 QuickSilver__ [~ait@akasha.ayai.com] has joined #lisp 20:15:37 -!- daniel2 [~danielmg@201.209.38.229] has left #lisp 20:15:45 -!- bobbysmith0071 [~russ@firewall-dcd1.acceleration.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:16:53 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@77.240.184.15] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:18:07 -!- agumonkey [~agu@27.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:18:25 -!- QuickSilver_ [~ait@cpe-72-177-30-155.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:19:52 -!- jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@144.64.18.80] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:21:43 -!- user123abc [~sally@c-67-171-79-251.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:22:36 -!- Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:23:56 Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-71-163-168-125.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:24:01 -!- senj [~senj@S01060026f3e14440.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [] 20:26:48 -!- k0001 [~k0001@host239.186-108-161.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 20:28:27 k0001 [~k0001@host114.186-109-179.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 20:28:29 ehu` [~ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 20:28:41 -!- answer_42 [~answer_42@gateway/tor-sasl/answer42/x-66983568] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.9.2] 20:28:43 rpg: current arnesi only seems to have support for sbcl and ccl, and I'm not sure how good it actually is 20:29:08 I'm not convinced that those two functions actually do the same thing 20:29:49 -!- ehu [~ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20:29:49 -!- jewel [~jewel@105-236-20-105.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20:31:10 We have good support for ACL, but if no one is maintaining arnesi, I don't really know where to submit it. 20:31:51 I know what you mean about the functions having different semantics, but it's still helpful not to have to write a lot of implementation-specific guff to parse the output TIME writes to *TRACE-OUTPUT* 20:32:07 I think drewc had maintainership of arnesi 20:32:25 he was handling uncommon web, so inherited arnesi 20:33:25 -!- foreignFunction [~niksaak@94.27.88.110] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:33:58 foreignFunction [~niksaak@94.27.88.110] has joined #lisp 20:33:59 -!- hijarian [~hijarian@92.255.253.213] has quit [] 20:34:20 agumonkey [~agu@27.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 20:34:36 -!- foreignFunction [~niksaak@94.27.88.110] has quit [Client Quit] 20:35:27 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:35:38 rpg: I was thinking of reimplementing cl:time 20:35:56 Ah. If so, it would be nice if it would actually RETURN something.... 20:36:20 getting the CPU statistics is very easy on *unix and windows 20:36:28 -!- MrMcCarthy is now known as iLogical 20:42:30 daniel2 [~danielmg@201.209.38.229] has joined #lisp 20:42:41 There's perfpiece as well 20:43:06 -!- daniel2 [~danielmg@201.209.38.229] has left #lisp 20:45:09 that's a bit too complicated 20:46:54 -!- kofno [~kofno@cpe-24-165-213-150.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:52:59 jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@bl18-97-39.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 20:55:13 jjkola_work_ [~jjkola@fw-hki.ixonos.com] has joined #lisp 20:56:03 pnpuff [~aeiou@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 20:57:23 kmels [~kmels@frbg-5f733f62.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 20:57:23 -!- kmels [~kmels@frbg-5f733f62.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Client Quit] 20:58:32 -!- jjkola_work [~jjkola@fw-hki.ixonos.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:58:58 jjkola_work [~jjkola@fw-hki.ixonos.com] has joined #lisp 21:00:22 -!- jjkola_work_ [~jjkola@fw-hki.ixonos.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:03:05 EventHorizon [~asdf@107-200-38-103.lightspeed.tulsok.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:07:06 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-183-210.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:12:20 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-170.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:12:42 -!- QuickSilver__ [~ait@akasha.ayai.com] has quit [Quit: QuickSilver__] 21:13:11 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-38-170.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 21:17:09 -!- asedeno_work [asedeno@nat/google/x-nbuuovvckoxminml] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:17:36 -!- EventHorizon [~asdf@107-200-38-103.lightspeed.tulsok.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:17:40 emacs w3m isn't in the package list? 21:18:05 Ralt_: try #emacs 21:18:09 kmels [~kmels@frbg-5f733f62.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 21:19:26 stassats yeah, doing that 21:19:43 -!- segv- [~mb@dslb-088-075-112-240.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: segv-] 21:19:51 quick question, I'm used to vim, and starting with emacs, it's quite weird to use the arrow keys... do you guys use them a lot? 21:20:02 never 21:20:26 you use C-n etc? 21:20:35 Ralt_: I use this: http://emacswiki.org/emacs/Evil 21:20:37 that's correct 21:20:54 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 21:20:56 -!- paul0 [~paulo@177.96.55.84] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:21:01 i use the arrow keys, but my emacs powerlevel is low. 21:21:02 jasom: I'd rather not use vim stuff if I start using emacs :) 21:21:19 *jasom* only uses emacs to run slime 21:21:27 vim for everything else 21:21:28 i'm also not afraid to use a mouse 21:22:20 no problem in using arrow-keys. better non using mouse. 21:23:05 -!- victor_lowther [~victorlow@143.166.116.80] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 21:23:58 Ralt_: keep the hands ever on the keyboard is cool. 21:24:11 pnpuff yeah, I'm quite used to vim 21:24:25 i use arrow keys but it's emacs .. you can make it work however you want 21:24:48 Ralt_: vim is a good text editor. 21:25:23 says who? 21:25:25 but since there isn't the command mode and stuff like ft etc, holding the ctrl key is a pain 21:25:44 Ralt_: isn't caps lock your control key yet? 21:25:49 trying that.. 21:26:07 also you could make a "command mode" using any of the various vi-like modes 21:26:36 *sykopomp* read something by xah lee where he advocates using the edge of your palm instead of caps lock. 21:26:38 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Disconnected by services] 21:26:44 *sykopomp* just uses his thumb, on his kinesis :> 21:27:18 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 21:27:47 heh yeah, i have a datahand and it's thumb too 21:28:27 and my arrow keys are the same as "rgv keys, but i'd probably use them anyway 21:29:19 but with emacs you can do pretty much anything you imagine .. i think there's even a bisect-navigation thing 21:29:55 damn... paredit isn't in the package list either 21:30:42 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:34:39 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:34:41 wchun [~wchun@81-232-46-25-no38.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 21:35:00 -!- _d3f [~freedo@46.183.216.234] has quit [Quit: ~ The Gnu went back to savannah ~] 21:35:03 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 21:35:12 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:35:14 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.32.82] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 21:36:31 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 21:36:56 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-71-59-142-111.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:37:44 -!- rpg [~rpg@23-25-144-217-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: rpg] 21:40:36 -!- peterhil` [~peterhil@gatekeeper.brainalliance.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:41:26 -!- spiderweb [~user@unaffiliated/lcc] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:42:14 spiderweb [~lcc@unaffiliated/lcc] has joined #lisp 21:43:49 superflit_ [~superflit@65-128-59-132.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 21:44:36 -!- superflit [~superflit@65-128-75-135.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:44:36 -!- superflit_ is now known as superflit 21:46:17 k0001_ [~k0001@200.117.217.97] has joined #lisp 21:47:30 Ralt_: do not worry at all .. I suppose that it's only a limited list of packages/libraries easily installable. Install these by hands is a lot more 'didactic'. 21:49:08 -!- k0001 [~k0001@host114.186-109-179.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:49:49 -!- pnpuff [~aeiou@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has quit [Quit: .] 21:51:12 -!- ASau [~user@46.115.64.88] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:51:35 nforgerit [~nforgerit@HSI-KBW-149-172-198-162.hsi13.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 21:52:25 AeroNotix [~xeno@ceg76.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 21:52:50 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:53:18 ASau [~user@46.115.64.88] has joined #lisp 21:54:00 Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 21:58:52 -!- agumonkey [~agu@27.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:00:21 senj [~senj@S01060026f3e14440.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 22:02:27 _class_ [~class@99-105-56-217.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:02:37 -!- Indecipherable [~Indeciphe@41.28.101.221] has quit 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pavelpenev [~quassel@85-130-11-8.2073813645.shumen.cablebg.net] has joined #lisp 22:50:06 -!- daniel1 [~danielmg@201.209.38.229] has left #lisp 22:52:19 -!- gffa [~unknown@unaffiliated/gffa] has quit [Quit: sleep] 22:52:45 jrajav [~jrajav@66-188-176-243.dhcp.roch.mn.charter.com] has joined #lisp 22:52:56 -!- bitonic [~user@5e09a749.bb.sky.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:53:28 bitonic [~user@5e09a749.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 22:56:32 -!- Alice3 [~Alice@cpc3-grim12-0-0-cust856.12-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [] 22:58:01 Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has joined #lisp 22:58:14 mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-66-73-241.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:03:31 -!- urandom__ [~user@ip-88-152-211-23.unitymediagroup.de] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 23:05:05 rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 23:05:11 QuickSilver_ [~ait@ip-64-134-31-215.public.wayport.net] has joined #lisp 23:05:39 comfort keyboard + saddle chair -> lisping gangdam style 23:06:11 above was re: stuff in scrollback about ctrl key 2 hours ago 23:08:08 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:10:09 -!- sabalaba [~Adium@c-76-21-4-232.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:11:41 SexKitten [~Oddity@d75-156-92-175.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 23:11:41 -!- Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has quit [Disconnected by services] 23:12:02 Jubb [~ghost@pool-96-241-84-33.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:12:36 agumonkey [~agu@27.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 23:14:18 -!- m7w [~chatzilla@178.172.234.123] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:20:55 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-5f75f616.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:22:26 -!- QuickSilver_ [~ait@ip-64-134-31-215.public.wayport.net] has quit [Quit: QuickSilver_] 23:22:53 nan_ [~user@46.197.116.88] has joined #lisp 23:24:13 hi, sbcl displays unreadable objects with something like this: {10128367C3} 23:24:32 stlifey [~stlifey@121.11.47.187] has joined #lisp 23:24:33 which helps me distinguish between same objects and objects that have the same content. 23:25:03 I am overriding pring-object and I would like to include this pseudo-address whatever it is in my stream. how do I do it please? 23:25:06 -!- nforgerit [~nforgerit@HSI-KBW-149-172-198-162.hsi13.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Quit: nforgerit] 23:25:22 clhs print-unreadable-object 23:25:22 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_pr_unr.htm 23:25:33 maxm-, thanks 23:25:35 it has parameter for :identity t, and that prints the above 23:26:57 -!- natechan [~natechan@50-192-61-46-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]] 23:32:47 -!- stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-241-112.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:34:24 -!- Xizor [~Xizor@c83-252-198-185.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [] 23:36:11 daniel1 [~danielmg@201.209.38.229] has joined #lisp 23:40:50 and they are not pseudo, they are real 23:43:03 PCChris [~PCChris@dhcp-199-74-100-93.res-hall.northwestern.edu] has joined #lisp 23:43:34 -!- puchacz [~puchacz@46-65-36-47.zone16.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:44:44 -!- ArmyOfBruce [~bruce@waywardmonkeys.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 23:45:05 -!- tsuru``` [~charlie@adsl-74-179-29-153.bna.bellsouth.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:45:17 ArmyOfBruce [~bruce@waywardmonkeys.com] has joined #lisp 23:45:51 -!- zophy [~sy@24.111.9.10] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:49:34 -!- daniel1 is now known as danielmg 23:51:56 -!- danielmg [~danielmg@201.209.38.229] has left #lisp 23:55:02 seangrove [~user@173-8-133-100-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 23:55:10 hello again! what is wrong with this one? http://paste.lisp.org/display/133940 23:56:17 nan_: what would "do" in a loop do there? it's a quotation 23:56:48 -!- Buglouse [~Buglouse@unaffiliated/Buglouse] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:57:40 Bike: oh? i remember i need a "do" before iteration, let me check. 23:57:44 if you want to return multiple forms, you need (progn (form1) (form2)) and such.. Use `(progn ,@(loop ...for ... collect `(defconstant ,r ,i))) as body of your macro 23:58:09 macros don't "do" things, they return teh code, that would "do" things 23:58:13 nan_: it's a quotation. it's like (loop repeat 5 do '(hello)), what do you expect it to do? 23:59:21 i better go back to read loop, thanks! 23:59:46 most probably you want a "collect", not do 23:59:57 an then put it inside a progn