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seconds] 00:54:00 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:00:00 -!- Jasko [~Jasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:00:23 Jasko [~Jasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:01:17 -!- kofno [~kofno@cpe-24-165-213-150.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:02:16 -!- kmels_ [~kmels@p579D111F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:03:55 kofno [~kofno@cpe-24-165-213-150.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:05:14 -!- `26 [~backtick2@unaffiliated/26/x-1186543] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 01:07:05 dedis3 [~dedis3@akw403.cs.yale.edu] has joined #lisp 01:11:11 -!- nforgerit [~nforgerit@HSI-KBW-149-172-198-162.hsi13.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Quit: nforgerit] 01:11:41 seangrove [~user@c-71-202-126-17.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:12:26 -!- gk1 [~gk@24-179-210-90.dhcp.roch.mn.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:14:49 -!- Xizor [~Xizor@c83-252-198-185.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:15:49 -!- dedis3 [~dedis3@akw403.cs.yale.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:15:55 -!- qptain_Nemo [~qN@89.207.216.208] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:18:16 `26 [~backtick2@unaffiliated/26/x-1186543] has joined #lisp 01:18:16 <|3b|> hmm, maybe it has been slow for a while 01:19:15 -!- doomlord_ [~doomlord@host109-151-246-226.range109-151.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:19:20 -!- jeti` [~user@p548E98F4.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 01:20:20 shifty [~user@114-198-33-177.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 01:21:01 Yuuhi``` [benni@p5483A178.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 01:21:40 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.234.45] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:22:22 -!- Yuuhi`` [benni@p54839F8A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:22:55 -!- 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[~backtick2@unaffiliated/26/x-1186543] has joined #lisp 01:43:54 -!- dnolen [~user@cpe-74-64-61-245.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 01:44:22 -!- tcr [~tcr@196.214.183.68] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:46:10 yena [~yena@cpe-72-177-30-155.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:53:34 -!- urandom__ [~user@p54B0EEF7.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 01:55:16 -!- user123abc [~sally@c-67-171-79-251.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:02:02 ludston [~ludston@CPE-121-218-71-225.lnse4.ken.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 02:08:55 -!- My_Hearing [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:09:46 My_Hearing [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 02:10:27 -!- Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-108-45-162-198.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:10:33 I can't really have my 'everything is a stack' idea work very cleanly if there's also a context associated with the stack that has a function scope 02:10:47 you could just separate stacks and environments. 02:10:48 er, a dictionary of functions that acts like a scope 02:11:07 Bike: yea that seems to be the path 02:11:45 Daditos [~kvirc@unaffiliated/daditos] has joined #lisp 02:12:36 https://github.com/DerekV/stacksp/blob/master/stacksp.lisp 02:15:15 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 02:17:12 -!- askatasuna [~askatasun@236-241-231-201.fibertel.com.ar] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.9.1] 02:22:20 I have two inputs, say (+ P (g r x) (f x (g u (h (a) t) z) (c) y z x)) and (- P (a) (b) (h q (c) y) (j u t)) 02:22:26 things can be nested arbitrarily deep 02:23:00 I have written functions to pull out elements in common between the two (fwiw, here it would be (U T Y)) 02:23:22 but now I want to rename common elements in the second input to something new... 02:23:29 I was informed about gentemp 02:23:53 subst, maybe? 02:24:01 and I can generate 3 temporary symbols 02:24:19 wow 02:24:28 I hadn't even gotten to the question yet ut you might have answered it 02:24:30 but 02:24:58 I was going to ask if there was a better way than doing some complicated recursion to replace a symbol in a tree 02:25:05 now I'm looking at the clhs on subst 02:25:37 -!- agumonkey [~agu@183.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 02:27:06 yeeeeeep that works :) 02:27:15 thanks a millon 02:27:53 That's funny. I've never had the need to use subst 02:27:56 Am I strange? 02:28:20 if you were writing a first order logic theorem prover you might :) 02:30:21 bc1: is that what you're doing? 02:30:43 yep 02:30:56 Oooh 02:31:54 joekarma [~joekarma@70-36-57-169.dyn.novuscom.net] has joined #lisp 02:32:02 -!- joekarma [~joekarma@70-36-57-169.dyn.novuscom.net] has quit [Client Quit] 02:35:17 executive desicion, in my language you will not be able to override the function denoted by the symbol 5 02:35:36 derekv: but 6 is OK? 02:35:39 at least not yet 02:35:50 What about 4? 02:36:09 unddefined 02:36:26 (... (def 4 5) (+ 4 5)) => 10? 02:37:11 or 02:37:36 i can just allow the user to override how symbols are resolved to functions and say its out of my hands 02:38:18 So basically a symbol which is a number is transformed to a function that evaluates to that number? 02:38:29 loke_erc: yes 02:38:43 or at least the behavior is defined to be equivlent 02:38:50 So when are functions evaluated? 10 => fn_5, but how to get 5? 02:38:51 5() 02:38:56 (5) 02:39:31 or functions are evaluated by dfault, and you need to quote them to prevent evaluation? 02:39:32 its a stack language, 5 is a function which returns the current stack with itself pushed 02:39:42 Ah 02:39:45 the value 5 02:39:56 actually thats an interesting question 02:40:24 tcr [~tcr@196.214.183.68] has joined #lisp 02:40:35 it has a dual meaning I guess, 02:40:40 when envaluated, it is a function 02:40:44 So something like << '5 apply >> would yield 5 02:41:17 yea 02:41:38 stardiviner [~stardivin@122.236.255.1] has joined #lisp 02:41:40 bxx [~yhiselamu@lap.ee] has joined #lisp 02:42:06 actually i'm just trying ot do whats easiest to get closer to a lanuage i could use to solve small problems 02:42:18 do you have aprtial application? 02:42:21 partial 02:42:28 my goal is to write a mandlebrot generator 02:42:34 in it 02:42:47 https://github.com/DerekV/stacksp/blob/master/stacksp.lisp 02:43:03 -!- spiderweb is now known as pcc 02:43:35 Do it as a reader macro 02:43:37 -!- pcc is now known as spiderweb 02:43:43 in LoL he implements a forth sort of thing, which I read months ago. 02:43:52 I'd love to be able to do (let ((x #> 10 10 + <#)) 02:44:08 why? 02:44:14 Bike: for fun 02:44:31 Bike: Fun, did you hear about it? 02:44:34 :-) 02:44:44 loke_erc: that'd be easy whith what i have now 02:44:51 -!- tcr [~tcr@196.214.183.68] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:45:14 loke_erc: would get more complicated when i add in functions and definitions 02:45:27 write now it just grabs them from the lisp context 02:45:57 I've been looking for a use-case to do some complex reader macros 02:46:24 I'm not sure how that's supposed to work as a reader macro. It's more complicated than just altering the syntax of lisp. 02:46:26 I've considered doing what every Lisp programmer probably did at one time or another, and that is to create some kind of M_expr parser 02:47:01 you could do something like (with-stacksp-context my-context (let ((x #> 10 10 my-add <#)) )) 02:48:01 loke_erc: I find is an interesting take 02:48:15 wouldn't it just grab the string between the #> <#, and transform it into (process-stack (string-to-stack "10 10 +")) 02:48:23 bjorkintosh [~bjork@ip68-13-229-200.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 02:48:26 boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 02:49:22 -!- boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:49:38 Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-108-45-162-198.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:50:37 sw2wolf [~user@171.212.200.107] has joined #lisp 02:54:19 boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 02:59:04 liweinan [~liweinan@123.117.208.111] has joined #lisp 02:59:18 jacks [~jacks@37.244.217.57] has joined #lisp 03:01:09 -!- jacks [~jacks@37.244.217.57] has quit [Client Quit] 03:01:57 -!- Jasko [~Jasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:02:25 Jasko [~Jasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:03:39 pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has joined #lisp 03:05:29 push and pop are destructive heh 03:06:18 maybe not push 03:06:56 they're not destructive, pop just alters bindings. 03:07:21 yea... 03:07:40 i was sitting here thinking destructive wasn't quite the right word 03:07:54 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@217.17.38.43] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 03:08:06 its side effect isn't on the data 03:09:09 -!- spiderweb [~lcc@unaffiliated/lcc] has quit [Quit: leaving] 03:10:05 -!- setheus [~setheus@107-203-153-73.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 03:10:57 any reason why (list myvar) vs `(,myvar) 03:11:51 ` could maybe have different semantics with constancy. Probably not in that case though. 03:14:21 At least in SBCL `(,x) translates to (backq-list x), where backq-list is an alias for list. 03:14:38 cdidd [~cdidd@89-178-175-126.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 03:15:03 (if I remember the implemntation correctly) 03:15:53 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:18:23 Hermit [~arm@unaffiliated/grpala] has joined #lisp 03:18:25 user123abc [~sally@c-67-171-79-251.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:18:34 -!- Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-108-45-162-198.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:18:51 -!- walter|r [~walter@c-24-218-217-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 03:19:32 -!- Slivka [~Slivka@31.40.53.196] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:20:50 -!- ISF [~ivan@189.61.223.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:21:43 -!- Buglouse [~Buglouse@unaffiliated/Buglouse] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:23:45 jacks [~jacks@37.244.217.57] has joined #lisp 03:25:14 Buglouse [~Buglouse@unaffiliated/Buglouse] has joined #lisp 03:28:15 setheus [~setheus@107-203-153-73.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:29:32 -!- sellout [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:29:58 sellout [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:31:12 engblom` [~user@unaffiliated/engblom] has joined #lisp 03:31:42 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 03:32:59 -!- engblom [~user@unaffiliated/engblom] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:34:28 -!- dRbiG [drbig@unhallowed.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 03:34:48 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Quit: cya] 03:39:17 -!- bege [~bege@S0106001d7e5132b0.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 03:41:04 Loplin [~Loplin@CPE-65-26-211-6.wi.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:41:24 teggi [~teggi@113.173.17.143] has joined #lisp 03:41:38 tcr [~tcr@196.214.183.68] has joined #lisp 03:42:30 Hi. I am new to list and am attempting to make a function that accepts a list like so: (defun myfunc ('(a b c) '(d e f)) (...)) 03:42:54 -!- doomlord [~doomlod@host109-151-246-226.range109-151.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:43:13 However, I get an error saying that '(A B C) is not a symbol. Is there some way to do what I am attempting? 03:43:25 What is it exactly you are attempting? 03:43:43 (accept list argument that has 3 elements with their own variable) 03:44:08 (defun myfunc (l1) (destructuring-bind (a b c) l1 ...)) 03:45:50 I'll try that. Thank you. 03:45:55 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 03:46:05 -!- tcr [~tcr@196.214.183.68] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:50:15 dedis [~dedis@akw403.cs.yale.edu] has joined #lisp 03:50:16 -!- Jasko [~Jasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:50:16 -!- dedis [~dedis@akw403.cs.yale.edu] has quit [Excess Flood] 03:50:53 Jasko [~Jasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:51:01 dedis [~dedis@akw403.cs.yale.edu] has joined #lisp 03:51:01 -!- dedis [~dedis@akw403.cs.yale.edu] has quit [Excess Flood] 03:58:46 -!- pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:01:29 rdqfdx [~rdqfdx@78.90.88.244] has joined #lisp 04:02:40 -!- benny [~user@i577A16EF.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:03:55 dedis [~dedis@akw403.cs.yale.edu] has joined #lisp 04:03:59 -!- dedis [~dedis@akw403.cs.yale.edu] has quit [Excess Flood] 04:08:18 -!- Daditos [~kvirc@unaffiliated/daditos] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.0.4 Insomnia http://www.kvirc.net/] 04:08:20 dedis [~dedis@akw403.cs.yale.edu] has joined #lisp 04:08:25 -!- dedis [~dedis@akw403.cs.yale.edu] has quit [Excess Flood] 04:09:38 AlbireoX`Laptop [~AlbireoX@76.78.168.23] has joined #lisp 04:10:46 -!- setheus [~setheus@107-203-153-73.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 04:10:46 oh man does that feel pimp 04:11:36 https://github.com/DerekV/stacksp/blob/master/stacksp.lisp 04:12:42 -!- AlbireoX [~AlbireoX@76.78.153.49] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 04:13:03 dedis [~dedis@akw403.cs.yale.edu] has joined #lisp 04:13:35 -!- AlbireoX`Laptop [~AlbireoX@76.78.168.23] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:14:36 now i just need to figure out the semantics for defining a function in the language itself 04:14:56 -!- ArmyOfBruce [~bruce@waywardmonkeys.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 04:15:04 derekv: any particular reason you use a bunch of closures instead of just passing the hash tables themselves around? 04:15:25 ArmyOfBruce [~bruce@waywardmonkeys.com] has joined #lisp 04:15:39 Bike: good question, looks like i could factor that out 04:16:04 -!- dedis [~dedis@akw403.cs.yale.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:18:31 Bike: Oh I know, its because this way I can override how symbols are resolved. notice the implementation in root-context falls back to generating a self-insertion function 04:18:53 i was wondering if using clos would make it easier to read 04:19:38 I was going to say, just having a resolve method specialized on whatever environment structure would seem like a better way to do that to me. 04:20:21 As in a generic? 04:23:23 hmm , if [] were to denote a nested stack 04:23:50 a generic function, yes. 04:24:19 something like `[2 x +] `[x] add2 define-function 04:24:22 doomlord [~doomlod@host109-151-246-226.range109-151.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 04:24:29 doomlord_ [~doomlod@host109-151-246-226.range109-151.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 04:25:48 dedis [~dedis@akw403.cs.yale.edu] has joined #lisp 04:31:03 benny [~user@i577A80B1.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 04:34:30 -!- jacks [~jacks@37.244.217.57] has quit [Quit: jacks] 04:35:22 Okay, I'm getting an error that I don't really understand. Would someone mind taking a look at this pastebin to tell me what I'm doing wrong? http://paste.lisp.org/+2V90 04:35:48 Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 04:36:18 Loplin: you want (let ((determinant (- (* a e) (* b d)))) ...) 04:36:43 The indentation makes it barely readbale 04:37:20 Loplin: oh and yes, I didn't notice because of the indentation but you have an extra paren in the line after the des-binds. 04:37:45 why the two levels of dest-bind? 04:38:20 There is an extra level of parens as well 04:38:31 Do you want PROGN there? 04:39:23 The extra level of parens is probably a left-over that I forgot to remove from something else 04:39:34 I'm not sure what progn is, so I'll have to look that up 04:41:12 I think that makes for a pretty good day of perfectly impractical hacking, time for food and sleep 04:41:21 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 04:42:21 tcr [~tcr@196.214.183.68] has joined #lisp 04:43:04 -!- rdqfdx [~rdqfdx@78.90.88.244] has quit [Quit: terminated!] 04:44:23 setheus [~setheus@107-203-153-73.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:44:43 Loplin: you have to remember that parens are significant in Lisp. ((x)) is not the same as (x) 04:45:10 In fact, the former is a syntax error, which is what bites you in your pasted code 04:45:35 loke_erc: Yeah, I forgot about that until after it was mentioned here 04:46:54 -!- tcr [~tcr@196.214.183.68] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:47:30 It seems to work correctly now. Thank you all. 04:48:58 -!- kofno [~kofno@cpe-24-165-213-150.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:50:22 kofno [~kofno@cpe-24-165-213-150.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:51:14 -!- Jasko [~Jasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:51:53 Jasko [~Jasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:55:52 -!- ArmyOfBruce [~bruce@waywardmonkeys.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 04:56:20 ArmyOfBruce [~bruce@waywardmonkeys.com] has joined #lisp 04:57:20 loke_erc: Also, I'm not sure I understand what you mean. How do I use progn to get rid of the extra level of destructuring-bind? 04:57:51 you don't need progn there. 05:07:36 kliph` [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 05:07:39 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:08:01 Loplin: My two points (dest-bind, and progn) were unrelated 05:08:03 -!- kliph` [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:08:09 they were pointing out two separate issues with your code 05:08:49 -!- My_Hearing [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:09:26 My_Hearing [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 05:12:51 -!- bananagram [~bananagra@c-98-198-236-112.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:14:36 loke_erc: In that case, were you suggesting I do something like: (destructuring-bind (a b c d e f) (append l1 l2)) ? 05:16:11 Or is there something better? 05:17:01 that's one way of doing it 05:17:24 that seems kind of pointless to me. 05:18:14 or perhaps (destructuring-bind ((a b c) . (d e f)) (cons l1 l2) ...) 05:18:17 (it would be faster 05:18:45 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 05:19:39 How would that be faster? 05:19:46 CONS is faster than APPEND 05:19:57 well, yes. 05:20:33 Just a rule of thumb I have. Try to avoid APPEND if the alterntive code is just as readable 05:20:48 I mean, what's wrong with using two destructuring-binds. 05:21:03 Bike: nothing. 05:21:27 Bike: but in his proginal code, the body was attached to the INNER dest-bind. The outer went unused 05:21:33 What does the . operator do in the ((a b c) . (d e f)) portion? 05:21:47 it's not an operator, it just indicates that it's a cons. 05:21:48 -!- Jasko [~Jasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:21:52 Loplin: . is not an operator. It's how conses are represented in source 05:21:54 (cons 'a 'b) => (a . b) 05:22:03 ahh 05:22:25 Jasko [~Jasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:24:54 -!- LiamH [~none@96.231.227.13] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:25:27 mcsontos [~mcsontos@77.240.184.15] has joined #lisp 05:30:11 -!- Vivitron [~Vivitron@pool-98-110-213-33.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:30:19 -!- jleija [~jleija@50.8.41.50] has quit [Quit: leaving] 05:31:47 -!- My_Hearing is now known as Mon_Ouie 05:32:47 -!- engblom` is now known as engblom 05:33:20 -!- mjonsson [~mjonsson@38.109.95.133] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 05:34:43 -!- `26 [~backtick2@unaffiliated/26/x-1186543] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 05:37:07 -!- kofno [~kofno@cpe-24-165-213-150.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:43:12 tcr [~tcr@196.214.183.68] has joined #lisp 05:43:31 kofno_ [~kofno@cpe-24-165-213-150.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 05:43:52 https://github.com/tpapp/array-operations <- Is it just me, or does this library's README.org describe a completely different set of symbols to those that actually appear in the package? 05:44:55 . 05:45:06 Thra11: At a quick glance, they seem to line up. 05:47:26 -!- tcr [~tcr@196.214.183.68] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:47:52 -!- kofno_ [~kofno@cpe-24-165-213-150.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:48:55 sellout, yeah, I think I may have got muddled up between that package and the package that quicklisp knows by the same name :s 05:58:51 jewel [~jewel@105-236-64-134.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 06:00:06 `26 [~backtick2@unaffiliated/26/x-1186543] has joined #lisp 06:00:12 tcr [~tcr@196.214.183.68] has joined #lisp 06:01:35 fantazo_ [~fantazo@91-119-196-139.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 06:01:51 -!- Hermit [~arm@unaffiliated/grpala] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 06:04:50 kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 06:09:23 -!- setheus [~setheus@107-203-153-73.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 06:09:36 dRbiG [drbig@unhallowed.pl] has joined #lisp 06:11:02 -!- tcr [~tcr@196.214.183.68] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:11:55 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 06:12:06 setheus [~setheus@107-203-153-73.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:13:30 ISF [~ivan@189.61.223.97] has joined #lisp 06:17:13 -!- Thra11 [~thrall@96.145.125.91.dyn.plus.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 06:22:42 -!- Jasko [~Jasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:22:53 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 06:23:46 Jasko [~Jasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:24:01 oh joy, reddit has another one of these lisp discussions 06:24:14 these? 06:24:53 I do not know why I get afraid each time reddit is mentioned :P 06:24:54 yeah, they come up once in a while, with the same result 06:25:30 foreignFunction [~niksaak@94.27.88.155] has joined #lisp 06:26:21 ivan-kanis [~user@lns-c10k-ft-02-t2-89-83-137-164.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr] has joined #lisp 06:26:28 <`26> stassats: I'm not very familiar with reddit. URL? 06:26:43 `26: http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/13ezr2/the_nature_of_lisp_explaining_lisp_to_nonlispers/ 06:27:02 -!- jjkola_work [~jjkola@fw-hki.ixonos.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:27:21 -!- linse [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1177917310.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: zzzz] 06:27:28 oh, mysticism. 06:28:37 jjkola_work [~jjkola@fw-hki.ixonos.com] has joined #lisp 06:29:25 right, trying to find something deep in lisp appears to be silly in itself, i guess that's why people who have no idea what it actually is race to proclaim it impractical 06:29:27 -!- Jubb [~ghost@pool-96-241-84-33.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:29:49 -!- edgar-rft [~GOD@HSI-KBW-091-089-000-047.hsi2.kabelbw.de] has quit [Quit: mental blackout] 06:32:52 shwouchkie [~shwouchk@bzq-84-110-44-159.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 06:35:52 -!- shwouchk [~shwouchk@unaffiliated/shwouchk] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:36:26 tcr [~tcr@196.214.183.68] has joined #lisp 06:39:14 -!- Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:40:05 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 06:40:54 -!- jewel [~jewel@105-236-64-134.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:41:02 -!- Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:44:15 kofno [~kofno@cpe-24-165-213-150.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 06:44:16 -!- tcr [~tcr@196.214.183.68] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:44:53 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 06:45:59 nydel [~nydel@ip72-197-245-1.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 06:47:20 For a CL newbie, what does "progn" stand for ? 06:47:44 program-n or so 06:47:50 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@lns-c10k-ft-02-t2-89-83-137-164.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:48:05 ivan-kanis [~user@lns-c10k-ft-02-t2-89-83-137-164.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr] has joined #lisp 06:48:05 n meaning that the return value of the nth form is returned 06:48:18 group a number of expressions and return the last one as opposed to PROG1 and PROG2 06:48:20 prog1 returns the return value of the first form. i think there is a prog2 as well 06:48:34 sw2wolf: prog (program) -> prog1/2/n (prog that returns value 1/2/n) 06:48:46 thanks ! i see now 06:48:55 H4ns: there is a prog2 that returns the first value 50% of the time and the second value the other 50% of the time. 06:49:05 "right" 06:49:09 lol 06:49:22 clhs prog2 06:49:23 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_prog1c.htm 06:49:24 AFAIK no implementor has been that strict wrt ANSI CL compliance 06:49:27 ^ 06:49:56 how embarassing, there are no conformant CL implementations. missing out on such a basic macro! 06:50:28 tcr [~tcr@41.115.173.189] has joined #lisp 06:51:16 then "progn" can ensure the forms after it evaluated sequentially ? 06:51:38 is there a way to generate cl->win32 binaries? like raco? 06:52:05 -!- impulse [~impulse@bas3-toronto48-1176442486.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 06:52:24 sw2wolf: forms in a progn are evaluated sequentially, yes. 06:52:27 sw2wolf: the forms *inside* it. 06:52:37 i see 06:52:42 sw2wolf: note that many things in CL have an 'implicit' progn. 06:53:15 for example ... 06:53:15 -!- Jasko [~Jasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:53:16 so progn is mostly used for a few forms, such as UNWIND-PROTECT and IF, which take a single form as one of their arguments. 06:53:29 asvil [~user@ns.osvtl.spb.ru] has joined #lisp 06:53:41 yes 06:53:45 but COND has implicit PROGNs, so I generally prefer that over IF. 06:53:51 impulse [~impulse@bas3-toronto48-1176442486.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 06:53:53 Jasko [~Jasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:54:00 (cond ((= x 1) (print 1) (print 2))) 06:54:17 sykopomp: that is where i prefer WHEN 06:54:29 H4ns: I was leaving out the extra cases. :| 06:54:30 jaimef: some implementations allow that, the results will vary... implementations compiling to C can more easily provide OS-friendly libraries and executables, like ECL 06:54:42 -!- tensorpudding [~tensorpud@99.148.202.129] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:54:54 cond is like C'switch ? 06:54:59 and yes, WHEN/UNLESS are other examples of implicit PROGNs 06:55:13 it's more like an if/else if/else 06:56:06 CASE is more like C's switch in that the expressions are 'constant' 06:56:17 or literal, or something 06:56:21 I even cannot use ECL to build a complete stumpwm :( 06:56:43 that's probably due to the uh, hairiness, of clx 06:57:30 *sykopomp* wonders if anyone says "sbuckle" or "ess-buckle" 06:57:31 Now threaded clisp run stumpwm VERY WELL using QuickLisp's clx 06:57:44 sw2wolf: why don't you use sbuckle? 06:57:44 tensorpudding [~tensorpud@99.148.202.129] has joined #lisp 06:58:02 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-akoszkbtwxgnfvbq] has joined #lisp 06:58:02 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-akoszkbtwxgnfvbq] has quit [Changing host] 06:58:02 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 06:58:04 what is sbuckle ? 06:58:09 SBCL 06:58:22 :/ 06:58:30 oh, SBCL creates a VERY big stumpwm image 06:58:50 40 MB here 06:58:55 you poor thing, running those ancient 100mb hdds 06:58:57 I feel for you 06:59:09 here's a nickel, get yourself a 2GB flash drive 06:59:17 SBCL created stumpwm > 40M, but clisp is only 8M 06:59:36 sw2wolf: are you sure that you are optimizing in the right direction? 06:59:36 RAM waste is key 06:59:40 are you running in an embedded system with no storage? 06:59:57 sw2wolf: do you think that the whole image resides in memory? 06:59:58 what does image size have to do with ram 07:00:07 There is not a big difference in size between Hello World and the full stumpwm, when it comes to SBCL, I have noticed. 07:00:24 From the `top-RES` 07:00:25 yeah, sbcl images have all of sbcl in them. 07:00:34 H4ns: fwiw, SBCL *starts* at ~80M of RES for me :) 07:00:34 engblom: that is because the image contains all of the lisp, not just what your hello world program actually calls. 07:00:53 H4ns: Yep. 07:01:06 EasyAt [~Easy@81.17.31.43] has joined #lisp 07:01:09 clisp contains all of lisp too 07:01:09 sykopomp: certainly, but the resident set will typically shrink over time as pages are replaced that are not used. 07:01:22 sw2wolf: right. but it uses a virtual machine, not native code 07:01:25 (room) in my sbcl stumpwm gives a dynamic usage of about 52 MB, I think. 07:01:58 regardless, it's absurd to even have this argument, since stressing out about 50-80MB of RAM is kind of ridiculous unless you're on a Pi 07:02:01 I'm not good with this stuff but I think the RES in top doesn't reflect actual usage, SBCL just says it's using that much. 07:02:03 clisp is about 10M 07:02:11 sw2wolf: you're doing it wrong. 07:02:31 why, i am using stumpwm now 07:02:35 I have a puny computer with just a gig of ram and i've never had any issues with stumpwm on sbcl. 07:02:43 Is there any portable library out there that implements reader/writer locks? Bordeaux doesn't seem to do it. 07:03:15 -!- Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:03:41 FWIW, differences in binary sizes like that tend to be due to libraries that are linked in, resulting in a fat binary, but much of which is never referenced (and thus never paged in by the VM system). Unless you're on some kind of non-paged system; something embedded or similar. 07:04:37 bt:make-lock? 07:04:46 Is a mutex, no? 07:04:48 it however makes a significant differences if many lisp processes that don't fork from a parent lisp are running 07:04:55 s/differences/difference/ 07:05:20 How many copies of your window manager do you expect to be running? :-) 07:05:24 cross: no 07:05:25 phadthai: still, looking at the initial working set is not a good measure of memory usage. 07:05:30 non-window managers :) 07:05:36 1099 v0 S 0:22.38 /home/sw2wolf/bin/stumpwm-clisp 07:05:58 stassats: no what, exactly? 07:06:12 ps output 07:06:47 Is there any good benchmarks when it comes to performance that compares sbcl and clisp? 07:06:54 cross: no to what you asked me 07:07:02 phadthai: perhaps, but other binaries will have difference sizes. Also one may improve that by using shared libraries. 07:07:07 from top -> 1099 sw2wolf 2 20 0 30188K 7340K sbwait 0 0:22 0.00% stumpwm-clisp 07:07:29 stassats: You mean to say that bt:make-lock does NOT produce a mutex, but instead produces a reader/writer lock? 07:07:30 cross: indeed, shared libraries, versus a huge static image 07:07:32 sw2wolf: please do not paste more of that. 07:07:43 sorry 07:07:44 engblom: you need no benchmarks to see that clisp is not very competitive when it comes to performance 07:07:53 -!- findiggle [~kirkwood@50-194-56-154-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:07:54 cross: it makes a lock 07:08:09 right, why measure when you can also take our word for it? :D 07:08:17 heh 07:08:23 stassats: Right, mutex == lock in this context. I'm asking about reader/writer locks. 07:10:07 cross: it's possible that too few implementations provide them for bordeaux to include a frontend for these... unfortunately other than what some implementations have I don't personally know of a generic library for those (it also would be difficult as depending on implementations threads may be handled differently too) 07:10:20 cross: can't you make one on top of it? 07:10:45 maybe also possible on top of a generic CAS implementation FFI binding 07:11:05 stassats: Sure. There's a good example of how to do that in Butenhof's book, but I'm wondering if there's an already existing library. 07:11:17 stassats: I do not doubt there is a difference in performance, but sometimes it would be nice to know how big it is... I am still a very beginner with lisp, and I have noticed one thing at least: clisp is more userfriendly. Take any of Python, Perl, Ruby and they will all be slower than C, still people use them also. 07:11:56 engblom: you should measure yourself whether the difference matters for you 07:12:06 I am using SBCL with slime, but if I just want quickly to test something in lisp (without having emacs running, I start clisp) 07:12:25 engblom: until you have the need to know, use clisp and portable libraries so that you can switch implementations later on. 07:12:29 my emacs runs 24/7 07:12:41 clisp is good except its thread support is always experimental :) 07:13:20 engblom: just never stop SBCL 07:13:33 -!- kofno [~kofno@cpe-24-165-213-150.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:13:38 i use CCL and CLISP 07:13:48 minion: linedit? 07:13:49 linedit: No definition was found in the first 5 lines of http://www.cliki.net/linedit 07:13:54 or use linedit, if you really must 07:13:55 phadthai: Yeah, one can link against C or whatever, but I'm a bit surprised that Bordeaux doesn't provide an implementation in terms of their mutexes; after all, they do recursive mutexes which seem a bit more esoteric to me. *shrug* 07:16:26 wow i have 23 instances of emacs open & i'm not even doing anything in particular 07:17:19 one emacs per file? 07:18:27 I am using emacs for its ERC, EMMS and SLIME ... 07:18:42 sw2wolf: What is EMMS? 07:18:57 i use emacs because i want to feel superior to those vim slobs! 07:19:05 Emacs Multi Media System 07:19:18 mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has joined #lisp 07:19:18 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has quit [Changing host] 07:19:18 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 07:19:32 linsy [~ev@46.0.100.27] has joined #lisp 07:19:33 I love vim. That is why I use emacs+evil. 07:19:51 BTW, The EMMS-streams seems cannot use mms:// URL ? 07:20:01 hello? 07:20:05 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.85.107] has joined #lisp 07:20:15 sw2wolf: this channel is not about emacs or emms or anything else starting with "e" 07:20:30 i see 07:20:32 cross: hmm it makes me wonder if it was considered not worth it performance-wise, vs modern implementations using special measures against the readers-writers problem.. still, a generic implementation might be best than nothing and worth adding 07:20:41 but there's #emacs 07:21:06 really! i will try 07:21:32 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@77.240.184.15] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:21:47 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:23:42 phadthai: Yeah. I imagine they had some reason.... It kind of looks like read/write support just got added to SBCL what, about a year ago? Maybe there just hasn't been any request for it. 07:23:43 -!- Jasko [~Jasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:23:55 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@lns-c10k-ft-02-t2-89-83-137-164.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 07:24:25 Jasko [~Jasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:24:33 fsvehla [~fsvehla@h081217181184.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 07:24:40 cross: that's possible... ECL also has them, that would already be two which could avoid a generic mutex/condvar based one 07:27:23 Indeed. Seems like Clozure has them as well. 07:27:35 cross: sbcl has read-write locks? under which name? 07:27:55 stassats: http://www.indiegogo.com/SBCL-Threading-Improvements-1 07:28:09 well, that's not what's in SBCL 07:28:36 stassats: So we're back to two CL implementations with them. 07:28:51 looks like the name is "frlock" 07:29:06 and it was added three weeks ago 07:29:18 -!- boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:30:11 stassats: Not sure I follow what you're getting at. 07:30:25 -!- sw2wolf [~user@171.212.200.107] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 07:30:58 it wasn't added "a year ago" 07:31:07 Did you read his blog post? 07:31:12 He did the work a year ago. 07:32:03 you said added to SBCL 07:32:16 Note that you pointed to a FAST rlock implementation. 07:32:25 Are you sure there isn't another rlock? 07:32:40 Also, you said that bt:make-lock created a read/write lock. 07:32:45 So.... Yeah. Not sure what you're getting at. 07:33:24 should be getting at something? 07:33:59 and i thought you wanted plain locks when i suggested bt:make-lock, so you can disregard that 07:34:14 Did you read my original question? I clearly asked for read/write locks. 07:34:18 You said bt:make-lock. 07:34:24 I said, "That's a mutex, no?" 07:34:28 And you wrote back, "no." 07:34:35 So what; it's not a mutex? 07:34:43 In fact, it is. 07:34:51 what part of "disregard that" is not clear? 07:35:10 is there a standard function for getting the first n elements of a list 07:35:15 subseq. 07:35:46 thanks 07:35:47 there's no released version of SBCL with frlocks (and i don't know what i'm getting at with this) 07:36:38 So given that frlocks are 'fast' read/write locks, and someone did work a year ago to implement read/write locks in sbcl, it doesn't seem unreasonable to wonder whether there's a version with a less-optimized version of read/write locks. 07:37:05 Or perhaps you can simply "disregard" my statement about SBCL. 07:37:23 And we can all move on and get read/write support added to bordeaux threads. 07:37:39 And cease being geekier-than-thou on IRC. :-) 07:38:03 sw2wolf [~user@171.212.200.107] has joined #lisp 07:39:06 paolo_m [~user@2-228-95-110.ip190.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 07:41:11 -!- fantazo_ [~fantazo@91-119-196-139.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:42:44 kiuma [~kiuma@static-217-133-17-91.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 07:42:48 -!- Loplin [~Loplin@CPE-65-26-211-6.wi.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 07:42:55 -!- leoncamel [~leoncamel@124.126.209.86] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:43:05 "fast" appears to be the name of the algorithm 07:43:12 Sigh. 07:43:26 Okay. You're right, I'm wrong. You are clearly the smartest person in the room. 07:43:27 Happy now? 07:43:33 what the fuck? 07:43:57 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-61-164.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:44:04 Dude. Chill out. 07:44:30 -!- mr_vile [~carnage@9ch.in] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:44:48 that's funny 07:45:09 mr_vile [~carnage@9ch.in] has joined #lisp 07:46:09 stassats: what part of "disregard that" is not clear? 07:47:00 i'm just telling you what's present in sbcl, that's all 07:47:18 Okay. Fine. Got it. Sorry. 07:47:42 -!- ASau [~user@46.115.73.240] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 07:48:25 and it got added, like, three weeks ago (not for released version), so i haven't got time to remember that 07:48:48 Look, I'm not calling your intelligence into question. 07:48:54 Sorry if I F'ed up the timeline. 07:50:07 -!- tensorpudding [~tensorpud@99.148.202.129] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 07:51:25 Nikodemus's thing is titled, "SBCL Threading 2011", so I kind of thought that it was actually IN 2011, not 2012. 07:51:33 Off by one errors are the bane of my existence. 07:52:09 and it wasn't a success 07:52:13 But on closer inspection, it seems it was all done in 2012; perhaps the 2011 there doesn't refer to a year. I don't known. 07:52:25 It appears it was a success; he got his stuff added. 07:52:37 And seemed to have met his other goals. 07:54:22 -!- Jasko [~Jasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:54:53 Jasko [~Jasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:55:01 cross: bloody indiegogo can't let link to the posts directly, click "http://www.indiegogo.com/SBCL-Threading-Improvements-1?c=activity click more until you see "A long overdue status update, and an apology." 07:56:48 Alice3 [~Alice@cpc3-grim12-0-0-cust856.12-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 07:57:08 Joreji [~thomas@69-219.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 07:57:24 The main thing I'm taking away from this exercise is that indiegogo is a sucky website. :-/ 07:58:13 -!- ludston [~ludston@CPE-121-218-71-225.lnse4.ken.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:59:26 Ooo yeah. Looks like he failed on 4/7. That's not a great grade. :-( 07:59:57 Okay, I stand corrected and officially apologize for a) being wrong about what I thought was true for SBCL (though to be fair, the read/write locks are in), and b) overreacting towards you. 08:01:35 spiderweb [~user@unaffiliated/lcc] has joined #lisp 08:10:56 engblom` [~user@unaffiliated/engblom] has joined #lisp 08:12:50 -!- engblom [~user@unaffiliated/engblom] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 08:14:23 angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has joined #lisp 08:14:31 mcsontos [mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-epwkqkyaakpqqdkg] has joined #lisp 08:14:47 leoncamel [~leoncamel@124.126.209.86] has joined #lisp 08:16:14 -!- Joreji [~thomas@69-219.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:17:55 Why is '+' equal to T? I accidentally forgot the parentheses once at REPL, and noticed that '+' has a value. 08:18:28 + is the last form entered at the repl. 08:18:57 In clisp, + returns nil 08:19:10 if no other form 08:19:47 -!- `26 [~backtick2@unaffiliated/26/x-1186543] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:20:41 (if + 1 2) will return 1 (True), and not 2 (False) with both ccl and sbcl. 08:21:12 the initial value is implementation-dependent. it's not that mysterious, you can just look it up 08:21:15 Oh, and with clisp too. 08:21:17 clisp returns 2 08:21:21 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 08:21:32 Break 1 [3]> (if + 1 2) 08:21:34 1 08:21:53 gee, i bet the last form you entered wasn't nil! 08:21:58 then the last form is not nil 08:23:01 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@92.47.248.232] has joined #lisp 08:23:01 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@92.47.248.232] has quit [Changing host] 08:23:01 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 08:23:02 -!- engblom` is now known as engblom 08:23:53 `26 [~backtick2@unaffiliated/26/x-1186543] has joined #lisp 08:24:21 woah weird 08:24:40 -!- Jasko [~Jasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:25:25 Jasko [~Jasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:25:30 Ralt [~Ralt@eup38-1-82-247-184-72.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 08:28:04 prxq [~mommer@mnhm-5f75e3f4.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 08:28:05 does commonlisp include a date-time function or set thereof that gets a particular formatted date, or is that something we write ourselves? 08:28:32 there's the various universal time functions, but if you want to deal with real date formats try the local-time library. 08:28:51 see DECODE-UNIVERSAL-TIME 08:29:18 right now i'm doing (defun date-time (&optional selection) ...) and a multiple-value-bind then cond - is that pretty much what to do? 08:30:10 ..where selection is 'minute or 'second etc, if nil returns a list of all values 08:33:43 Xizor [~Xizor@c83-252-198-185.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 08:33:50 Bike: local-time is very interesting, thank you for recommending 08:34:22 it depends on what you need, if performance matters and you end up needing to call date-time for every element in a row, and that calls decode-universal-time (perhaps even get-universal-time) everytime, then using the function directly and the resulting bindings might be best of course, and/or allowing to pass the time to the function optionally 08:35:24 -!- spacefrogg^ is now known as spacefrogg 08:35:35 phadthai: thank you 08:36:58 phadthai: one thing i'd really like to be able to do easily is make universal times that count from 1970 instead of 1900 - intuitively i feel there should be a simple mathematical way to do that 08:37:17 subtract seventy years of seconds 08:37:20 sure 08:37:57 Bike: that sounds too easy but i'm going to try it 08:38:51 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-141-98-110.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:39:38 universal times are just counts of seconds since 1900, so... 08:40:37 Bike: but a year is only 364.25 days.. i guess i just have to do a little extra math 08:41:08 you can let cl time functions calculate the difference between two dates 08:41:25 some functions of mine are using 2208988800 for this 08:42:01 give a time to encode-universal-time for 1900, another for 1970, and see the difference between both 08:42:09 since both will be timestamps in seconds 08:42:47 kennyd [~kennyd@78-1-151-17.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 08:43:40 Indecipherable [~Indeciphe@41.13.16.218] has joined #lisp 08:45:53 hmm 08:46:14 why is it (encode-universal-time 0 0 0 1 1 1900) gives 28800? i expected it to give 0 08:46:58 it's the same in ccl, so probably not a bug. 08:47:34 (encode-universal-time 0 0 0 1 1 1900 0) 08:47:41 add a 0 timezone 08:47:45 oh. duh. 08:47:52 lol thanks phadthai 08:48:23 I had to lookup the hyperspec myself :) welcome 08:48:43 (- (get-universal-time) (encode-universal-time 0 0 0 1 1 1970 0)) 08:48:49 is what i was after 08:48:52 thanks phadthai Bike 08:50:32 rdqfdx [~rdqfdx@78.90.88.244] has joined #lisp 08:51:05 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-192-93.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 08:51:34 -!- bxx [~yhiselamu@lap.ee] has quit [Quit: #yhiselamu | www.yhiselamu.ee (EOF)] 08:51:53 are you sure that you want the zeroth time-zone? 08:52:14 hm, yes, you are 08:52:37 yeah i had to check on that too 08:52:42 -!- fsvehla [~fsvehla@h081217181184.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Quit: fsvehla] 08:52:56 and there's sb-ext:get-time-of-day 08:53:40 arkx [~aku@eagleflow.fi] has joined #lisp 08:54:57 stassats: there it is 08:55:10 stassats: what's that second value 08:55:10 -!- Jasko [~Jasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:55:54 Jasko [~Jasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:56:43 microseconds 08:57:04 ah 08:57:08 thanks stassats 08:57:13 sbcl gives a rather uninformative error for (encode-universal-time 0 0 0 1 1 1900), The assertion (TYPEP SB-IMPL::ENCODED-TIME '(INTEGER 0)) failed. 08:57:27 with my time-zone being -4 08:57:54 ccl is much better: > Error: Universal time for MM/DD/YYYY 01/01/1900 00:00:00 > with current time zone would be negative. 08:57:54 08:58:08 and (= (sb-ext:get-time-of-day) (- (get-universal-time) (encode-universal-time 0 0 0 1 1 1970 0))), so happy days for all 08:59:00 clisp gives the same vagueness as sbcl, stassats. 08:59:43 well, ACL just gives -14400 08:59:46 ecl interestingly just returns a negative number 08:59:57 like acl then 09:00:54 i'm surprised the others don't return a negative 09:01:18 egnarts-ms [~smsmfk@195.160.233.181] has joined #lisp 09:01:23 (encode-universal-time 0 0 0 1 1 1900) gives -600 here with CCL 09:01:31 "universal time n. time, represented as a non-negative integer number of seconds. Absolute universal time is measured as an offset from the beginning of the year 1900 (ignoring leap seconds). See Section 25.1.4.2 (Universal Time). " 09:01:34 -!- user123abc [~sally@c-67-171-79-251.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:02:11 how do I check the "lisp system's" time zone? 09:02:41 although encode-universal-time has: Exceptional Situations: None. 09:03:08 phadthai: that doesn't mean anything 09:03:24 dim: should be returned by decode- functions 09:04:37 (nth 8 (multiple-value-list (get-decoded-time))) is -1 09:04:57 surely you mean (nth-value 8 (get-decoded-time)) 09:05:27 (nth 8 (multiple-value-list (decode-universal-time (get-universal-time)))) is the same 09:05:40 stassats: I'm just copy pasting from the ansicl 09:05:58 wow (nth-value) i did not know about 09:06:02 (info "(ansicl) decode-universal-time") has some examples 09:06:38 you can decode negative times to the correct date 09:06:44 thanks for nth-value by the way :) 09:07:04 yeah seriously thanks for nth-value haha 09:07:09 -!- Alice3 [~Alice@cpc3-grim12-0-0-cust856.12-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [] 09:07:38 well, the authors of examples didn't know about it either! 09:08:04 it seems like it 09:08:40 dim: what's (info)? 09:08:54 M-x info 09:10:14 not only does it use (nth (m-v-l ...)), it uses nthcdr! impressive 09:10:35 just to make sure I understand correctly - libraries I install with quicklist are always to be loaded with (ql:quickload :libname)? 09:10:55 well, nthcdr is understandable 09:10:55 or 'libname or even "libname" i think 09:11:04 nydel: if you happen to be using emacs, you can do C-x C-e with point at the closing paren on the (info ...) s-exp and that will lead you to the right info page, providing you did install locally the info book referenced 09:11:14 shwouchkie: no, they are to be loaded with ASDF 09:11:40 ql:quickload uses asdf to load them, but if they're not present, it installs them 09:11:43 that's the difference 09:12:00 stassats, I see 09:12:05 but you would make your own .asd files to load dependent libraries 09:12:33 hmmm 09:12:51 see quickproject to help you doing that 09:13:00 dim: ohh cool what a great tool 09:13:00 Cymew [~user@fw01d.snowmen.se] has joined #lisp 09:13:11 http://xach.livejournal.com/278047.html?thread=674335 09:13:58 dim, thanks 09:14:30 quickload also suppresses output by default 09:14:40 agumonkey [~agu@183.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 09:14:46 dim: where was that info page installed from? 09:14:51 or rather, obtained 09:15:13 dpans2texi 09:15:30 minion: dpans2texi? 09:15:30 dpans2texi: No definition was found in the first 5 lines of http://www.cliki.net/dpans2texi 09:15:35 thanks 09:15:55 the links there may not be the most relevant, though 09:16:05 in the past hour writing in lisp has become sooo much easier and fun! i love this channel. 09:16:21 niels1 [~niels@p4FD6CA61.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:16:38 phadthai: M-x el-get-install RET dpans2texi RET 09:16:46 now if only i could figure out how to get lisp to print color to terminal! 09:17:02 not even sure if i wanna open the print color can-of-worms right now 09:17:04 stassats, so (if I don't use quickproject) I make an .asd file and put all my project's dependencies there? 09:17:44 -!- tcr [~tcr@41.115.173.189] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:17:51 nydel: you could use some vt100 codes, or a curses/termcap/terminfo frontend library 09:17:56 you also put there descriptions on how to load your project files 09:18:30 I see 09:19:08 what does #p before a string do? 09:19:14 pathname 09:19:43 it's a reader-macro for PARSE-NAMESTRING 09:20:13 oh 09:20:26 I don't know about reader macros yet. 09:20:29 *shwouchkie* goes to look 09:20:50 what the what 09:21:05 suddenly this works for me, i could've sworn i tried it a thousand times 09:21:09 -!- Bike [~Glossina@67-5-240-27.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 09:21:23 (format t "~C[31mhello" #\Escape) 09:21:49 stassats, id #<:use ..... also a reader macro? 09:21:49 perhaps slime or emacs interfer with them when not at a raw repl? 09:22:05 it could be, probably is 09:22:30 stassats, what else could it be? 09:22:49 well, it's out of context, maybe it's inside another reader-macro 09:23:29 if it's all alone, then it's a reader-macro 09:24:18 of course, it can be made to be just a package name 09:24:41 yay something fun to do, write me an everyday .lisp for printing in color. all my programs are gonna use color for no reason for like a month now i bet. 09:24:42 (set-syntax-from-char #\# #\a) (defpackage #<) (defun #<::use ()) 09:25:09 (that means first disabling dispatching properties of #\#, which would be a bad idea most of the time) 09:25:30 nydel: just make a format directive 09:26:08 -!- sw2wolf [~user@171.212.200.107] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 09:27:06 stassats: that's the ticket. i don't know if i've ever defined my own format directive before 09:28:15 -!- Jasko [~Jasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:28:54 Jasko [~Jasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:29:43 another idea might be to create an object to store some mix of color directives and strings, and a print-object method for it 09:29:51 -!- liweinan [~liweinan@123.117.208.111] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:30:30 those directives could also eventually include various wanted abstractions including tables 09:30:40 a template 09:32:10 liweinan [~liweinan@123.117.208.111] has joined #lisp 09:32:11 stassats, I see 09:32:15 or a macro that expands a template to a string or lambda, like for the various popular s-exp-html ones 09:32:21 i want it to reset the terminal afterward, i think i can do this with a parameter and a function 09:32:46 or a with-macro heh 09:33:49 fsvehla [~fsvehla@TK212017097035.teleweb.at] has joined #lisp 09:34:00 the latter could use unwind-protect such that reset would always be done even if a condition was signaled 09:34:56 beautiful 09:36:09 my parser is going to be color-coded by part-of-speech now, huzzah 09:39:07 -!- cdidd [~cdidd@89-178-175-126.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:41:28 shwouchkie: but that was quite confusing, so, when you see #x, it's a reader macro 09:41:56 ( is a reader macro too, as are ", ', ` 09:42:03 c_arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-nwlfrufolrbllfxf] has joined #lisp 09:43:56 stassats, from what I am reading, it seems to me that what you defined above is a reader macro for #a, rather than #. am I mistaken? 09:44:20 stassats, I see 09:45:27 (set-syntax-from-char #\# #\a) just makes # behave like a does, not like a dispatching macro character 09:46:03 ordinarily you can't do (defun #bc ()), but after (set-syntax-from-char #\# #\a), you can, but you can do #p"foo" anymore 09:46:09 can't 09:46:13 -!- fsvehla [~fsvehla@TK212017097035.teleweb.at] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:46:13 ah, right, I didn't notice you used a differenct func 09:46:17 the last one, meaning 09:46:37 yes 09:47:01 not that you would want to do that 09:47:16 stassats, If I understand correctly, it makes # and a identical to the reader? 09:47:27 but just to show that CL is quite malleable 09:47:30 -!- Indecipherable [~Indeciphe@41.13.16.218] has left #lisp 09:47:46 no, not identical, it just them of one category, meaning, constituent charters 09:48:00 characters, rather 09:48:32 fsvehla [~fsvehla@TK212017097035.teleweb.at] has joined #lisp 09:48:57 ah, cool 09:49:03 alright, I gotta go 09:49:10 stassats, thanks for the info 09:49:20 and explanations 09:49:40 so, reader macros operate on streams of characters, as opposed to ordinary macros 09:49:48 which operate on s-exps 09:50:11 I understand 09:53:44 intinig [~user@95-177-113-154.btlc.managedbroadband.co.uk] has joined #lisp 09:55:31 -!- theos is now known as Guest61381 09:55:49 Indecipherable [~Indeciphe@41.13.4.14] has joined #lisp 09:56:16 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 09:58:58 -!- Guest61381 [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:01:56 -!- fsvehla 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[~doomlod@host109-151-246-226.range109-151.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 12:29:38 -!- Natch [~Natch@c-eccde155.25-4-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:29:53 fsvehla [~fsvehla@TK212017097035.teleweb.at] has joined #lisp 12:31:57 -!- Slivka [~Slivka@31.40.53.196] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:32:32 francogrex [franco@grex.cyberspace.org] has joined #lisp 12:33:00 who had tried this Clicc system on a new lisp with success? http://www.cl-user.net/asp/libs/clicc 12:33:14 I'm interested in sharing experience 12:33:26 Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 12:34:02 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 12:34:55 francogrex: i wouldn't hold high hopes for it to work 12:36:09 jjkola_work [~jjkola@fw-hki.ixonos.com] has joined #lisp 12:36:31 chah_ayu [~chah@182.4.170.177] has joined #lisp 12:37:33 because it's old I think. I had made some attempts. Also with another system called thinlisp. 12:37:53 limited success with thinlisp but wasn't useful. 12:38:46 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:39:16 -!- qptain_Nemo [~qN@89.207.216.208] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:40:03 xcombelle [~xcombelle@AToulouse-551-1-41-14.w90-11.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 12:40:45 bitonic [~user@dyn1204-200.wlan.ic.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 12:41:40 -!- fsvehla [~fsvehla@TK212017097035.teleweb.at] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:43:14 what do you want to do? 12:43:28 if you want to compile lisp to C, there's always ECL 12:44:46 in that vein I'd like to find a C runtime compiler (code generation), but apparently CL isn't the right track to find that 12:45:04 chatting ,,, 12:45:39 ludston [~ludston@CPE-121-218-71-225.lnse4.ken.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 12:45:45 dim: Zeta Lisp would be better, right 12:46:19 what platform supports Zeta Lisp? 12:46:25 -!- ludston [~ludston@CPE-121-218-71-225.lnse4.ken.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Client Quit] 12:46:28 -!- Jasko [~Jasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:46:30 Symbolics Lisp Machine 12:46:39 :* 12:47:15 stassats: so that's not helping me here... 12:47:59 just write everything in CL, no C needed 12:48:07 ok 12:49:26 there's also https://gitorious.org/com-informatimago/com-informatimago/trees/master/linc but I think it's incomplete 12:50:04 but that wouldn't be CL, mostly an s-exp layer on top 12:50:11 (on top of C) 12:50:17 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.68.235] has joined #lisp 12:55:10 yena [~yena@ip-64-134-27-116.public.wayport.net] has joined #lisp 12:56:09 Natch [~Natch@c-eccde155.25-4-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 12:56:52 -!- kofno [~kofno@cpe-24-165-213-150.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:56:53 phadthai: linc is promising but indeed it's not cl 12:57:33 stassats: I like translators, just for no pratcical reason more than the beauty/aesthetic 12:59:20 kofno [~kofno@cpe-24-165-213-150.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:00:24 Jasko [~Jasko@65.217.244.130] has joined #lisp 13:02:58 -!- francogrex [franco@grex.cyberspace.org] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:03:35 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.2.1] 13:05:43 bxx [~yhiselamu@lap.ee] has joined #lisp 13:08:17 peterhil` [~peterhil@gatekeeper.brainalliance.com] has joined #lisp 13:08:18 -!- nydel [~nydel@ip72-197-245-1.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Quit: quit] 13:09:54 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.68.235] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:10:39 -!- stardiviner [~stardivin@122.236.255.1] has quit [Quit: my website: http://stardiviner.dyndns-blog.com/] 13:11:16 stassats: no C needed. Not there yet. I don't intend to rewrite PostgreSQL, I'm just a contributor, see... 13:12:06 well, postgresql was originally rewritten from lisp to C, maybe you can convince them to go back? 13:12:57 not exactly 13:13:12 it's always been written in C, only the optimizer was hooked in in lisp 13:13:43 we still have much code that looks like lisp from the C rewrite of the optimizer, with list structures and lappend, lfirst, etc 13:14:28 hehe 13:14:32 a lisp library could speak its network protocol though, but I guess that it's considered an internal interface? 13:14:55 postmodern is a lisp library that speaks PostgreSQL protocol 13:14:58 it's just a client 13:15:16 yes 13:15:39 I think I will need to have CREATE FUNCTION ... LANGUAGE C ... dynamicly generate the binary code rather than dlopen a binary on the file system (.so, .dll, .dylib) 13:15:47 *p_l* wonders how hard would it be to port some of the approaches for clustering from OpenVMS/Rdb combo to Linux/PostgreSQL 13:15:53 that's a little too lispy not to ask around here about ideas of solutions :) 13:16:26 dim: you could use ECL to generate a shared lib dynamically 13:16:30 p_l: first, rewrite it in CL, then it'll be easy! 13:16:34 and the PostgreSQL protocol is a public client interface, nothing internal in there, it's documented and well maintained 13:16:47 p_l: I would still need my ECL to accept C code as input 13:17:17 the spirit is to have the compiler in the runtime as in any lisp system, the letter is not to forcibly do CL stuff in PG 13:17:22 dim: hmm... you definitely need *ANSI C* as "function body", yes? 13:17:27 PL/CL would still be a good idea 13:17:32 p_l: exactly 13:18:25 dim: you can throw the code into temporary file, call CC with apropriate parameters on it, and dload it. On change, replace the cached shared image 13:19:31 ECL does that for "C compilation" mode 13:19:47 (when compiled with dynamic ffi, that is) 13:21:05 that's called a gross hack, isn't it? 13:21:13 actually shouldn't be 13:21:22 but you have to carefully specify the ABI 13:21:36 in that case what about using LLVM and call it a day? 13:21:41 nforgerit [~nforgerit@HSI-KBW-149-172-198-162.hsi13.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 13:21:56 dim: essentially the same thing, at best you get no temporary file 13:21:59 (which is the most serious option I found, btw) 13:22:15 dim: at worst you are doing a partial rewrite of C compiler 13:22:19 is there an implementation already well supporting llvm? 13:22:24 well, you link to LLVM then you don't need to install gcc and setup PostgreSQL to be able to find it on the production server, it's not the same 13:22:28 phadthai: clang 13:22:36 ah, so with ECL still 13:22:53 dim: I guess you can try loading clang as library 13:23:10 basically, here I'm just trying the CL community for new ideas :) (thanks a lot for participating) 13:23:25 p_l: yes that's supported by the LLVM platform 13:23:41 I'm not sure it's solving enough of the problem set I want to address 13:23:54 but it seems like a solid approach 13:25:01 -!- echo-area [~user@182.92.247.2] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:25:20 I still think just bundling a C compiler and relying on OS stuff will be better 13:25:22 less hacky 13:25:48 ferada [~ferada@dslb-188-107-047-151.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 13:26:11 and in either case, all bets are off if you allow C++ :> 13:29:08 mjonsson [~mjonsson@38.109.95.133] has joined #lisp 13:32:35 Blinda [~antani@host45-237-dynamic.6-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 13:32:44 -!- Blinda [~antani@host45-237-dynamic.6-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Client Quit] 13:34:06 -!- kofno [~kofno@cpe-24-165-213-150.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:35:18 not allowing C++ is fine, as it's mainly the case already 13:36:11 dim: as long as you keep it C99 you should have no problems on many platforms, and you can bundle clang 13:36:34 maybe even keep with 8c/6c, which are also very fast and small (though miss some features) 13:38:02 how hard/easy would be to embed 8c (the Plan9 compiler, right?) 13:38:28 c++, now plan9? 13:38:29 i'm not sure that C compilers are on topic 13:38:43 i'm sure that they are not. 13:38:58 well, if they were at least written in CL 13:39:04 hehe 13:39:21 I wanted input from people used to work with dynamic code environments 13:39:34 where it's easy to compile binary code on the fly in production systems 13:39:37 embedding is harder than doing it like ECL does, that is dumping into temporary file 13:39:39 we can stop here though 13:39:54 that's like going to a whiskey bar asking for opinions on rum, because both are spirits 13:40:14 just saying, do continue. 13:40:22 H4ns: yeah, and finding a good enough analogy is as hard as... 13:40:42 dim: my analogy satisfies me perfectly :D 13:40:58 Indecipherable [~Indeciphe@41.13.52.84] has joined #lisp 13:41:07 so it's perfectly good enough, by construction :) 13:41:07 (that is, for you, at least) 13:43:38 engblom` [~user@unaffiliated/engblom] has joined #lisp 13:44:48 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 13:45:42 -!- engblom [~user@unaffiliated/engblom] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:46:37 8cc is licenced under MIT terms, that means it's a contender 13:47:42 ikki [~ikki@189.139.11.198] has joined #lisp 13:51:51 segv_ [~mb@dslb-094-222-255-095.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 13:54:02 -!- varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:54:21 -!- CampinSam [~user@24-176-103-21.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:54:50 CampinSa` [~user@24-176-103-21.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has joined #lisp 13:54:59 -!- yena [~yena@ip-64-134-27-116.public.wayport.net] has quit [Quit: yena] 13:55:53 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[Quit: Konversation terminated!] 16:10:22 bitonic` [~user@dyn1222-119.wlan.ic.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 16:10:40 -!- bitonic` [~user@dyn1222-119.wlan.ic.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:10:41 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 16:11:20 Thra11 [~thrall@96.145.125.91.dyn.plus.net] has joined #lisp 16:11:43 bitonic` [~user@dyn1222-119.wlan.ic.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 16:12:20 optikalmouse [~user@gw.trapeze.com] has joined #lisp 16:12:25 natechan [~natechan@50-192-61-46-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 16:12:38 there's a lisp package builder that runs across multiple implementations, I can't remember the name :/ 16:12:50 asdf ? 16:13:20 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.116.90] has joined #lisp 16:13:35 clhs defpackage 16:13:35 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defpkg.htm 16:13:37 tends to work across implementations. 16:14:10 nada, I mean there's a program that tries to run unit tests of various common lisp packages on multiple implementations 16:14:10 optikalmouse: "package" is most likely not what you mean 16:14:22 H4ns: build isn't what I mean :/ 16:14:35 optikalmouse: work on your terminology then :) 16:14:36 -!- walter [~walter@c-24-218-217-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 16:15:05 you build a system possibly containing packages, right? 16:15:08 H4ns: sorry I've been getting used to non-#lisp channels where my laxity in terminology is accepted, and even celebrated 16:15:16 -!- engblom` is now known as engblom 16:15:21 optikalmouse: So now you want some kind of unit testing thing? Your original query makes absolutely no sense. Please ask again. 16:15:41 you're just not being clear. I can't even guess what you're asking for. 16:15:44 optikalmouse: wow. celebrated. awesome. 16:16:09 the problem I think is not being anal about lisp's glossary, it's that lisp has been using the same terms for a long time now and most other environements are using the same terms to mean very different things 16:16:17 a python package is nothing like a lisp package 16:16:37 dim: what he's asking doesn't even make sense if you s/package/system/ or s/package/distribution/ 16:16:43 I don't think I could name an environement where a package is tied to the notion of namespaces... 16:17:21 sykopomp: thanks, that was my question, I'm still not up to that then :) 16:17:40 forget it, I'll google around and reformulate my sentences later 16:18:08 optikalmouse: just be clearer about what you're asking about. What are you trying to do? 16:18:29 -!- Indecipherable [~Indeciphe@41.30.164.223] has quit [Quit: used jmIrc] 16:18:35 run unit tests for a whole bunch of packages in multiple implementations of CL 16:19:08 are you talking about cl-test-grid? 16:19:42 yes! 16:19:54 fe[nl]ix [~quassel@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 16:21:32 H4ns wins #lisp charades! 16:24:54 -!- dnolen [~user@cpe-74-64-61-245.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:25:41 I work mostly in python with some C for my microcontroller projects, I am trying to fully understand low level stuff but eventually would be working in machine learning. Any suggestions? 16:26:04 learning about low level things is secondary to math and AI 16:26:07 Blecha: learn common lisp. 16:26:17 no haskell first? 16:26:28 Blecha: you need to ask in #haskell for that. 16:26:29 -!- egnarts-ms [~smsmfk@195.160.233.181] has left #lisp 16:26:29 qptain_Nemo [~qN@89.207.216.208] has joined #lisp 16:26:30 findiggle [~kirkwood@173-10-106-172-BusName-Washington.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 16:26:37 I am also catching up on my math right now 16:26:37 you did come to a channel called #lisp. What did you expect? 16:26:44 that 16:27:02 I also asked in ##programming but I was looking more for general suggestions about lisp for a broke dude 16:27:05 Blecha: maybe there is a #math channel where you can ask about math. 16:27:14 just spent my budget for books this month 16:27:41 minion: please tell blecha about gentle 16:27:42 blecha: direct your attention towards gentle: "Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation" is a smoother introduction to lisp programming. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/ 16:28:57 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 16:29:09 -!- peterhil` [~peterhil@gatekeeper.brainalliance.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:30:05 thanks minion and sykopomp 16:30:58 Blecha: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ is free 16:31:45 fantazo [~fantazo@91-119-196-139.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 16:32:00 from a script, written in lisp/sbcl at the moment, i want to add an ssh key using add-key. this will request the key to be input in the terminal. is there a simple way to block the repl and let the add-key process handle input for as long as add-key is running? 16:34:16 Joreji__ [~thomas@94-223.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 16:34:16 Joreji_ [~thomas@94-223.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 16:34:16 Joreji [~thomas@94-223.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 16:34:23 hmm in theory the repl should just wait while you perform custom input 16:34:37 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-24-219-33.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:35:08 -!- specbot [~specbot@tiger.common-lisp.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 16:35:12 specbot [~specbot@tiger.common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 16:35:58 phadthai: sb-ext:run-program doesn't seem to do it. any others that may be nicer to me? 16:36:58 ah that probably forks another process... I'm not sure if there's an option to wait until that process terminates (i.e. wait(2)) with it 16:37:21 or is run-program defined to wait 16:37:46 phadthai: it has an argument which allows you to wait or not. 16:38:30 also, if fork/wait are run from another thread than the one handling the repl it might still be problematic 16:39:01 but if it's started interactively, it theoretically should use the repl thread 16:39:45 there's also the fact that ssh-add wants to play games with the terminal 16:39:58 that might not work very well with the stream-oriented input/output of run-program 16:40:13 it might turn off tty buffering etc true 16:40:20 -!- stardiviner [~stardivin@122.236.244.210] has quit [Quit: my website: http://stardiviner.dyndns-blog.com/] 16:40:23 and use read(2) vs fread(3) 16:41:05 leoncamel [~leoncamel@124.126.209.86] has joined #lisp 16:41:32 madnificent: there is no simple way. the repl is blocked on a read() call, and your other process wants to read from the same device. if you want to do it right, you'll need to have a repl that you can suspend explicitly. 16:42:33 H4ns: so that's basically, "we don't have it now and it's not trivial to get it running". correct? 16:42:45 madnificent: it is more complicated than that. 16:43:10 that's confusing me 16:43:37 gffa [~unknown@unaffiliated/gffa] has joined #lisp 16:43:40 Xizor [~Xizor@c83-252-198-185.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 16:43:48 think about what happens: the repl has a pending read on /dev/tty and is blocked in the kernel. 16:44:13 now the other process that runs ssh-add opens /dev/tty, messes with the echo modes and other stuff, and issues another read. 16:44:13 also, what if i wouldn't need a full-blown repl? i'm using this for scripting purposes. 16:44:48 you need to make sure that you don't have a read pending on /dev/tty, from none of your threads, before starting ssh-add 16:46:14 phadthai: the only safe thing is to run ssh-add in its own terminal 16:46:18 maybe you can open the private key file and send the key to the agent from lisp? 16:46:20 i don't know how i can unsere that no read is pending on /dev/tty, not even in a simple base case. 16:46:29 -!- ferada [~ferada@dslb-188-107-047-151.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:46:44 H4ns: the problem is that the agent will ask for a password if the key is new 16:46:46 madnificent: if you're just concerned about the repl, you could write your repl so that it does not use read, but select() 16:46:57 madnificent: no, it is not the agent that asks for the password, it is ssh-add 16:47:04 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.68.235] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:47:08 madnificent: the agent would have the very same problem. 16:47:25 boogie [~boogie@wsip-98-172-168-236.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 16:47:28 fe[nl]ix: i.e. via a pty? madnificent is the one wanting to run ssh-add though 16:47:37 phadthai: the easiest way is to run it in a xterm 16:47:51 madnificent: look at ssh-askpass 16:47:57 H4ns: thanks 16:48:08 fe[nl]ix: yeah, i'm the one searching 16:48:16 madnificent: i've not looked at the source myself, but maybe it is easy to decrypt the key using ironclad or openssl 16:48:16 askpass supports various frontends, not sure for ssh-add 16:48:43 ssh-add uses ssh-askpass if available 16:48:45 For a great laugh, read the text in this precious image (lisp-machine): http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/d6/X-document.gif 16:49:35 H4ns: calling ask-pass won't help either, right? 16:50:12 madnificent: ssh-add has provisions to use an external program to get the password. you need to find out how that works. 16:50:21 madnificent: or find out how ssh-add works. 16:50:29 -!- seangrove [~user@c-71-202-126-17.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:50:34 -!- rdqfdx [~rdqfdx@78.90.88.244] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:51:12 *madnificent* is considering doing it dirty and requiring the key is in there already for now 16:51:26 madnificent: as fe[nl]ix suggested it'd also be possible (if using X11) to run an X terminal with the execute-command option 16:51:35 practical lisp vs gentle lisp? which is the best for a fuller understanding? 16:52:01 Blecha: it depends on you. if you come from other, object oriented programming languages, use pcl. otherwise, try gentle 16:52:08 -!- mucker [~mucker@183.83.240.198] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:52:48 hmm 16:53:41 madnificent: i.e. xterm -e ssh-add ... 16:54:11 i've come across many linux boxes that did not have xterm 16:54:15 Blecha: what is your background so far? 16:54:31 antonv [5d7d31f9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.49.249] has joined #lisp 16:54:39 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-192-93.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:55:01 python and some C 16:55:05 on debian-ish systems standard X11 clients might not all be installed despite X11 being present true 16:55:16 H4ns, phadthai, fe[nl]ix: yes, i've read it. though that won't work if i'm not running X (ie: when connecting over ssh without X forwarding) 16:55:26 madnificent: indeed 16:55:26 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-192-93.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:55:29 pff who uses X, stay in the terminal where its safe and just use tmux 16:55:42 Blecha: thank you for your valuable input! 16:55:51 Blecha: much python, or some python? 16:55:58 Blecha: you can still use tmux in a pretty unicode X11 terminal :) 16:56:23 yeah, 2 schools: either run Emacs in your Terminal or run your Terminal inside Emacs (M-x shell or eshell or term) 16:56:35 I much prefer running my terms inside Emacs :) 16:56:37 Im just saying that because 90% of my use of my computer is through ssh :P 16:56:48 Blecha: Not all system has high resolution console. OpenBSD for example does not. I am using tmux and almost just console apps, with the exception for the web browser. I still think X is needed for getting more stuff on the screen. 16:57:15 engblom: same 16:57:31 H4ns: I dont really know, I have been coding for some time but only this last year or so did I get serious about it 16:57:56 -!- kilon [~kilon@unaffiliated/thekilon] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:58:41 engblom im the same actually 16:59:05 but right now im using putty and windows at work 16:59:19 thats most of my day at this point 17:01:57 -!- Kvaks [~kvaks@92.169.189.109.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 17:02:10 -!- spacefrogg is now known as spacefrogg^ 17:04:07 Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 17:04:11 -!- paolo_m [~user@2-228-95-110.ip190.fastwebnet.it] has left #lisp 17:07:26 -!- pavelpenev [~quassel@85-130-11-8.2073813645.shumen.cablebg.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:07:38 Kvaks [~kvaks@92.169.189.109.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 17:07:56 Alice3 [~Alice@cpc3-grim12-0-0-cust856.12-3.cable.virginmedia.com] 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quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:04:48 -!- Joreji__ [~thomas@94-223.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Write error: Broken pipe] 18:04:48 -!- Joreji_ [~thomas@94-223.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Write error: Broken pipe] 18:05:45 cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has joined #lisp 18:06:28 rdqfdx [~rdqfdx@78.90.88.244] has joined #lisp 18:08:15 -!- asvil [~user@ns.osvtl.spb.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:09:50 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:11:07 engblom: better yet (I think the text is pretty neat&comprehensive for something written in the 80s), the picture points out the "tail" (: 18:12:46 :) 18:13:55 francisl [~flavoie@199.84.164.114] has joined #lisp 18:19:18 _d3f [~freedo@46.183.216.234] has joined #lisp 18:19:25 pnpuff [~aeiou@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 18:20:44 Jasko2 [~Jasko@65.217.244.130] has joined #lisp 18:22:43 -!- Jasko [~Jasko@65.217.244.130] has quit 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[~aeiou@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 20:04:12 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:04:55 Daisy [Emhh@109.58.58.16.bredband.tre.se] has joined #lisp 20:05:35 -!- Codynyx [~cody@c-75-72-25-106.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:05:51 -!- user123abc [~sally@CMU-799241.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:07:06 Codynyx [~cody@c-75-72-25-106.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:07:55 francogrex [~user@109.130.62.75] has joined #lisp 20:08:17 user123abc [~sally@128.237.114.62] has joined #lisp 20:08:50 I read from a html form (a post action) using (read-line), but if the user doesn't input any data, (read-line) hangs and waits for a manual input 20:09:52 doesn anyone know how to force it to read-line even when no user input? (I don't know if i am making sense here) 20:10:18 you could try peek-char or listen 20:10:28 buuuut that entire scheme sounds wrong somehow 20:10:50 -!- xcombelle [~xcombelle@AToulouse-551-1-41-14.w90-11.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:10:51 francogrex: are you using hunchentoot?... 20:11:09 no, using good old cgi 20:11:21 "good" 20:11:24 yuck 20:11:28 not the word that springs to my mind. 20:11:31 the form activates a lisp 20:12:11 antifuchs: pêek-char ok, but what is listen? 20:12:25 francogrex: what would you like it to do if it can't read user input? 20:12:41 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:13:02 -!- user123abc [~sally@128.237.114.62] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 20:13:16 read-line never hangs and waits for manual input in a cgi 20:13:23 -!- JPeterson [~JPeterson@s213-103-211-58.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- Wibbly Wobbly IRC] 20:13:30 sykopomp: format to the terminal a feedback to use: "you cunt didn't input anything, make a choice now!" 20:13:44 user123abc [~sally@128.237.114.62] has joined #lisp 20:13:48 francogrex: excuse me? 20:13:51 gehts noch? 20:14:06 not to you, but to the user 20:14:37 I didn't say it's going to be friendly site 20:14:57 -!- pnpuff [~aeiou@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has left #lisp 20:17:00 then it seems appropriate that you should suffer for making it. 20:17:19 (cgi, read-line all seem like perfectly appropriate choices, carry on.) 20:19:22 it's hanging 20:19:47 it's not hanging, it's waiting patiently 20:21:23 it waits for an enter and then it proceeds 20:21:28 it's waiting to read a line and will wait until it reads a line 20:21:29 like they told you, peek-char 20:21:34 Indecipherable [~Indeciphe@41.10.237.54] has joined #lisp 20:22:47 this is listen - http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_listen.htm#listen and this is peek-char http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_peek_c.htm#peek-char 20:22:56 newbie_coder: so I did it thus: (when (null (peek-char)) (format .... 20:23:04 I am doubting the null 20:23:12 -!- Slivka [~Slivka@31.40.53.196] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:23:31 (unless (peek-char) ...) 20:23:37 but that still seems like the wrong approach 20:23:38 ah 20:23:47 if you do that check too fast, you'll *never* get input 20:23:53 sykopomp: I know, I'm just messing about 20:24:14 trying stuff, in the end it'll be hunchen 20:24:25 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-192-93.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:25:34 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-192-93.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 20:26:02 _all_ of the approach is wrong 20:26:23 but hey, why learn how cgi works? it is so much more fun to mess about mindlessly. 20:26:33 it's true 20:26:47 -!- Natch [~Natch@c-eccde155.25-4-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:27:19 -!- linsy [~ev@5.164.160.231] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:27:24 francogrex: but here, kid, i have googled it for you: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Gateway_Interface 20:28:01 it is also useful to know what "end of file" is. 20:29:04 yeas, if data is provided to the program via the standard input ... 20:29:17 if method is post; ok 20:29:34 please don't read the page back to the channel. 20:29:40 urandom__ [~user@ip-88-152-219-13.unitymediagroup.de] has joined #lisp 20:30:07 the page you gave provides nothing useful it's the minimal that I already knew but thanks anyway 20:30:32 H4ns: *g* 20:30:39 m| 20:32:44 -!- AeroNotix [~xeno@aclu200.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: Uploading hax.....] 20:34:24 -!- Euthy [~euthy@unaffiliated/euthydemus] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:34:46 is there a good reason to do CGI style development with lisp? 20:35:01 drugs 20:35:14 but I guess that's more of an explanation than a reason. 20:36:04 -!- Xizor [~Xizor@c83-252-198-185.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:36:06 JPeterson [~JPeterson@s213-103-211-58.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 20:36:20 Natch [~Natch@c-eccde155.25-4-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 20:37:19 dim: There's really no good reason to do CGI style development. 20:37:42 The minor initial convenience it affords is dwarfed by the costs and annoyances 20:37:52 and that goes for any language 20:38:34 well, a good reason is you're a kid in a big corp and all you have is user account on the web server that gives you cgi 20:38:43 and. you. must. do. lisp. 20:40:18 my case 20:40:38 -!- user123abc [~sally@128.237.114.62] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:42:22 dim: Out of curiosity, why run your terms inside emacs? 20:42:54 Viaken: I feel more productive that way 20:42:59 I mostly run M-x shell 20:43:22 Alrighty 20:43:44 dlowe: I think I would count PHP/module development in the "CGI style", as in there's no application server, any processing life cycle is a single http query, etc 20:44:43 -!- Buglouse [~Buglouse@unaffiliated/Buglouse] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:44:55 yes, no one should develop in PHP either 20:44:59 Viaken: in M-x shell the buffer is an Emacs' buffer, that's really useful, and you have extra shortcuts as M-n M-p M-r for the basics, but also C-c C-p to get directly to the previous prompt. Oh and having a real C-r (re-search-backward in the whole term prompts, command lines and outputs) is incredibly useful 20:46:07 dlowe: I'm very curious why anyone would want a "mod-lisp" thing when all the interest about lisp is having a lisp image hosting the application that basically runs forever, and where you can allow http processing to use the application resources (code, existing processes, whatever) to handle the request... 20:46:37 well all the interest about lisp that I've been able to figure out in that very context of mod-* things (cgi style) vs application server style 20:47:11 I should spend some time getting to know emacs better. 20:47:28 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.62.75] has left #lisp 20:47:43 dim: If you look at mod_lisp, you'll see that it's actually a app server style interface 20:47:45 slyrus [~chatzilla@173.228.44.92] has joined #lisp 20:48:18 Viaken: self promotion, you might like http://tapoueh.org/blog/2012/11/06-About-vimgolf.html 20:48:23 dlowe: interesting 20:48:44 dlowe: I guess it would allow the apache module to talk to a "resident" lisp image? 20:49:21 Buglouse [~Buglouse@unaffiliated/Buglouse] has joined #lisp 20:49:30 dim: that's correct 20:50:11 tensorpudding [~tensorpud@99.148.202.129] has joined #lisp 20:50:12 *Viaken* is at level 0. Only one way to go! 20:50:30 dim: but that's from a long time ago (~10 years), back when reverse proxy setups were exotic. 20:51:49 Kvaks_ [~kvaks@109.189.164.227] has joined #lisp 20:51:56 -!- Kvaks [~kvaks@92.169.189.109.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:52:49 -!- dedis [~dedis@akw403.cs.yale.edu] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:54:15 -!- tali713 [~user@c-76-17-236-129.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:55:02 -!- agumonkey [~agu@183.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:57:36 yeah I guess nowadays people mostly use varnish in front of hunchentoot or the likes 20:58:08 dlowe: mod_lisp is (was) just a fastcgi kind of protocol between apache and any server that took 'headers+body' requests. seaside apps (smalltalk) used mod_lisp for a long time (just by implementing the, totally trivialy, protocol) 20:58:35 segv_: uh, yes? 20:58:57 sorry, that was for dim 20:59:08 ah, right. :D 20:59:13 cyanboy [~Adium@56.209.189.109.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 20:59:30 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 20:59:46 Hi, I want to begin teaching myself common lisp, but I have no idea which implementation I should use. I am on OS X 20:59:56 cyanboy: CCL 21:00:10 go with clojure then 21:00:15 err, ccl yes 21:00:38 clozure 21:01:22 Slivka [~Slivka@31.40.53.196] has joined #lisp 21:02:58 -!- linse [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1177917310.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: zzzz] 21:03:02 thanks :D 21:03:27 not clojure. Stay away. 21:04:00 but wasn't clozure a CL implementation? 21:04:57 it is 21:05:01 clojure <> clozure 21:05:18 not eq 21:05:21 linse [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1177917310.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 21:05:24 wait, oh man 21:05:48 CCL is clozure common lisp 21:06:11 yes, i always confuse that one with clojure 21:06:17 what was clojure about ? 21:06:18 which is the implementation I was just recommended for OS X? 21:06:40 some javaish stuff ? 21:06:51 cyanboy: http://ccl.clozure.com/ 21:07:02 is there any way to simulate stream-error portably? for tests 21:07:54 I did (let (s) (with-output-to-string (tmp) (setq s tmp)) (print "blah" s)) but under CCL this only throws 'simple-error which is not subclass of stream-error 21:08:10 Clojure is a lisp that runs on the jvm 21:08:26 I.e NOT CL 21:09:11 eheh ok 21:09:47 -!- jewel [~jewel@105-236-64-134.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:10:06 maxm: just signal a stream-error? or am I misunderstanding 21:10:25 tsuru` [~charlie@adsl-74-179-25-48.bna.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 21:11:05 Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-108-45-162-198.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:13:36 jeti`` [~user@p54A1EC09.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:14:09 -!- stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-244-039.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:16:01 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.68.235] has joined #lisp 21:16:05 -!- segv_ [~mb@dslb-094-222-255-095.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: segv_] 21:16:46 ChibaPet [~ChibaPet@fsf/member/chibapet] has joined #lisp 21:17:06 -!- jeti` [~user@p548E98F4.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 21:17:55 I have signed up for tomorrow's meeting, formally, via email. Seems unfortunate it's not being hosted at MIT with its just-show-up modality. 21:18:16 -!- cyanboy [~Adium@56.209.189.109.customer.cdi.no] has left #lisp 21:19:24 AeroNotix [~xeno@cgn223.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 21:20:28 -!- kilon [~kilon@unaffiliated/thekilon] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:21:00 -!- Indecipherable [~Indeciphe@41.10.237.54] has quit [Quit: used jmIrc] 21:21:44 ChibaPet: Boston Lisp Meeting? 21:22:05 -!- aezx [~aez@68-190-58-253.dhcp.mtgm.al.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 21:22:45 Yar, the same. 21:23:23 Nice. I miss those. 21:24:48 A pleasant change for me is that I've given up on public transportation, so I won't be nervously staring at a timepiece and then leaving early. 21:25:09 When it's over, I'll walk to my car and be magically transported home. 21:28:49 -!- tjasko__ [~Jasko@209.74.44.225] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:32:58 Joreji [~thomas@95-079.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 21:34:49 user123abc [~sally@67.171.79.251] has joined #lisp 21:38:21 tensorpu1ding [~tensorpud@99.160.220.210] has joined #lisp 21:38:22 m7w [~chatzilla@178.172.214.190] has joined #lisp 21:40:36 daniel1 [~danielmg@201.209.38.229] has joined #lisp 21:40:49 -!- daniel1 is now known as danielmg 21:40:57 -!- danielmg [~danielmg@201.209.38.229] has left #lisp 21:41:12 -!- tensorpudding [~tensorpud@99.148.202.129] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 21:42:50 aezx [~aez@68-190-58-253.dhcp.mtgm.al.charter.com] has joined #lisp 21:45:43 The literal notation for arrays suggests it is easier to extract a row than to extract a column (it *looks* like a list of rows). Is this so? or is it just how the literal happens to be? 21:46:52 probably implementation-dependent, but multidimensional arrays are often implemented as vectors, so 21:47:18 -!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:48:44 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-173-104.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:48:46 I don't think the spec says they _must_ be in row-major order, but the existence of things like ROW-MAJOR-AREF and the way displacement works means that it's probably a good idea to do so. 21:49:11 Thra11: the spec is strongly biased toward row-major ordering. 21:49:13 -!- newbie_coder [4267ffa3@gateway/web/freenode/ip.66.103.255.163] has quit [] 21:49:46 -!- aezx [~aez@68-190-58-253.dhcp.mtgm.al.charter.com] has left #lisp 21:50:12 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-192-93.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:51:11 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-192-93.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 21:51:26 cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has joined #lisp 21:51:38 Bike, implemented as a vector meaning the array is stored as a single sequence, and the 'chopping up' into rows is simply part of the functions that access the array elements? 21:52:08 yeah. 21:52:35 fsvehla [~fsvehla@h081217181184.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 21:57:38 I read about displaced arrays, and was wondering if I could access a sub-array of an array (i.e. a rectangular region defined by a column range and a row range) without having to create a new array and go through copying the relevant elements from the original. 21:58:10 Thra11: not with CL arrays. 21:58:19 bananagram [~bananagra@c-98-198-236-112.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:59:52 yeah, sadly not 22:00:23 row-major order 4lyfe 22:00:54 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.68.235] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:01:10 antifuchs: we could, while preserving row-major ordering, with BLAS-like stride metadata. 22:01:41 that would be really nice (: 22:04:07 I see that pkhuong must be suffering dissertation-writing-avoidance syndrome 22:04:39 that's two sbcl-related programming mini-projects today! 22:05:45 we'd "only" have to store both a stride and a dimension for each rank. It might even save a bit of work on array indexing. 22:08:45 ISTR nyef having a similar hack already though. 22:09:01 -!- Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:09:45 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 22:09:57 that would be really nice indeed 22:10:03 tensorpudding [~tensorpud@99.32.57.108] has joined #lisp 22:10:46 interfacing with fortran would be much easier. 22:10:55 -!- Demosthenex [~Demosthen@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:12:10 -!- bc1 [no@ip70-173-127-61.lv.lv.cox.net] has quit [] 22:13:29 -!- tensorpu1ding [~tensorpud@99.160.220.210] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:13:38 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:13:55 for the scrollback: RE: ssh-add. when setting :input to nil, it pops up a graphical input, and it all works from there on. 22:15:19 -!- AeroNotix [~xeno@cgn223.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: Uploading hax.....] 22:16:33 Jasko [~Jasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:16:35 \o/ 22:17:05 ok. It seems too simple to be true. I'll report reasons for my likely failure in #sbcl. 22:17:23 Sorella [~quildreen@oftn/member/Sorella] has joined #lisp 22:18:11 Demosthenex [~Demosthen@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 22:19:42 -!- cdidd [~cdidd@37-144-241-12.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:20:33 tensorpu1ding [~tensorpud@99.148.204.138] has joined #lisp 22:20:41 robot-beethoven [~user@24.118.142.0] has joined #lisp 22:21:02 snearch [~snearch@static.93.128.47.78.clients.your-server.de] has joined #lisp 22:24:12 -!- tensorpudding [~tensorpud@99.32.57.108] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 22:26:20 Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 22:30:11 [6502] [4e0cf39d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.78.12.243.157] has joined #lisp 22:32:03 carbocalm [~user@38.99.165.166] has joined #lisp 22:33:34 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f756475.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 22:35:31 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:40:53 nforgerit [~nforgerit@HSI-KBW-149-172-198-162.hsi13.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 22:41:22 -!- gffa [~unknown@unaffiliated/gffa] has quit [Quit: sleep] 22:42:11 -!- francisl [~flavoie@199.84.164.114] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:45:03 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-192-93.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:47:17 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-192-93.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 22:53:32 -!- fsvehla [~fsvehla@h081217181184.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Quit: fsvehla] 22:56:21 new [~new@kindista.org] has joined #lisp 22:57:32 -!- snearch [~snearch@static.93.128.47.78.clients.your-server.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 22:59:53 -!- new [~new@kindista.org] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:01:41 -!- calebopeko [~calebopek@ip-88-153-139-127.unitymediagroup.de] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:04:42 new [walker@kindista.org] has joined #lisp 23:05:36 -!- macrobat [~fuzzyglee@h-17-133.a328.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:05:46 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:07:59 -!- boogie [~boogie@wsip-98-172-168-236.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:11:27 Jubb [~ghost@pool-96-241-84-33.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:12:11 -!- acieroid [~acieroid@wtf.awesom.eu] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 23:12:45 fsvehla [~fsvehla@81.217.181.184] has joined #lisp 23:14:19 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-192-93.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:17:22 -!- ehu [~ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:21:20 acieroid [~acieroid@wtf.awesom.eu] has joined #lisp 23:26:01 -!- robot-beethoven [~user@24.118.142.0] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:26:19 -!- Alice3 [~Alice@cpc3-grim12-0-0-cust856.12-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [] 23:26:37 -!- foreignFunction [~niksaak@94.27.88.155] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:26:45 stlifey [~stlifey@116.26.20.72] has joined #lisp 23:27:01 -!- fsvehla [~fsvehla@81.217.181.184] has quit [Quit: fsvehla] 23:27:57 Hermit [~arm@unaffiliated/grpala] has joined #lisp 23:28:05 fsvehla [~fsvehla@81.217.181.184] has joined #lisp 23:31:25 robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:33:39 questionguy23 [~Adium@56.209.189.109.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 23:33:54 Hi, I want to get started with lisp. What implementation should I use? 23:35:59 what is the defacto free/open implementation? 23:36:20 I really like SBCL 23:36:29 but Clozure CL is pretty nice too, esp. if you're on a mac 23:37:17 does it matter? Is it any difference? Which one is the best cross-platform one? I use all platforms 23:37:52 there are differences, but they're both mostly conformant to the standard, so either should be fine for you 23:38:06 -!- urandom__ [~user@ip-88-152-219-13.unitymediagroup.de] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 23:38:58 if you're starting out, I'd suggest pick the one that works best on your development system 23:39:16 when you get better and porting becomes a concern, switching to another lisp is not really hard 23:41:43 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:43:53 -!- user123abc [~sally@67.171.79.251] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:45:22 user123abc [~sally@c-67-171-79-251.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:51:29 -!- questionguy23 [~Adium@56.209.189.109.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:53:25 -!- [6502] [4e0cf39d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.78.12.243.157] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 23:54:14 -!- m7w [~chatzilla@178.172.214.190] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 23:54:46 -!- impulse [~impulse@bas3-toronto48-1176442486.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:54:48 -!- qptain_Nemo [~qN@89.207.216.208] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:55:38 gigamonkey_ [~gigamonke@adsl-99-155-192-174.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:56:45 -!- jeti`` [~user@p54A1EC09.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 23:57:06 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-24-219-33.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:57:06 -!- gigamonkey_ is now known as gigamonkey 23:58:04 impulse [~impulse@bas3-toronto48-1176442486.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 23:58:05 -!- fsvehla [~fsvehla@81.217.181.184] has quit [Quit: fsvehla]