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In lisp... functional approach helps as well, but isn't required. Out of good *higher* level libraries, there's lparallel, and few others I don't remember right now 01:17:55 -!- stardiviner [~stardivin@122.236.244.164] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:20:39 p_l: thanks for the response! I don't really understand how threads communicate with each other in lparallel though 01:20:41 Yuuhi`` [benni@p54839F8A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 01:22:11 -!- Yuuhi` [benni@p54839DB2.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:26:08 cornihilio: channels for spawn->response style of operation, plus various synchronization structures are available, as well as queues 01:29:43 p_l: how would you add something to the queue of another thread? could you do some sort of multicast (put a message in everyones queue?) 01:29:59 it's not very clear how threads work with other threads queues looking at this: http://lparallel.org/api/queues/ 01:30:09 queues are unicast 01:30:22 however, they are shared memory 01:30:51 think circular buffers protected from accidential incoherence 01:31:25 -!- bitonic [~user@5e09a749.bb.sky.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:32:57 how would two child threads discover their siblings addresses for exchanging messages via queues? 01:33:18 and why is a circular buffer used? wouldn't that imply messages get overwritten/ 01:33:59 cornihilio: well, a circular buffer is pretty easy to sync 01:34:36 as for discovery, just pass them the parameters, or make a globally-accessible structure (can be protected with a lock, even - name service shouldn't be a contention point in most cases) 01:37:28 ah, okay, thank you for that explanation 01:38:25 also, one last bit... why would you want to use more than one kernel at the same time? 01:38:53 -!- Jasko [~Jasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:39:26 Jasko [~Jasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:42:18 cornihilio: separate sets of computation? 01:42:34 different amounts of threads in pools? Different subsystems? 01:46:00 -!- seangrove [~user@adsl-99-128-49-102.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:46:13 seangrove [~user@adsl-99-128-49-102.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:46:42 hey fe[nl]ix 01:47:47 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:48:27 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 01:48:52 antifuchs: your slime repository on github isn't getting updates any more 01:50:13 fe[nl]ix: yes, I was meaning to fix this this weekend 01:50:29 oh, cool 01:51:00 -!- ArmyOfBruce [~bruce@waywardmonkeys.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 01:51:19 Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-108-45-162-198.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:51:32 ArmyOfBruce [~bruce@waywardmonkeys.com] has joined #lisp 01:55:57 -!- aezx is now known as aezx|afk 01:57:38 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:58:17 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 01:58:37 -!- brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-142-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:59:08 LiamH [~none@96.231.227.13] has joined #lisp 01:59:38 imadper [~user@124.126.138.142] has joined #lisp 02:04:19 kofno [~kofno@cpe-24-165-213-150.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:08:53 -!- Fare [fare@nat/google/x-cbnvqhyituplkiwg] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:09:25 -!- Jasko [~Jasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:09:50 Jasko [~Jasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:11:19 -!- aezx|afk is now known as aezx 02:15:03 -!- ArmyOfBruce [~bruce@waywardmonkeys.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 02:15:36 ArmyOfBruce [~bruce@waywardmonkeys.com] has joined #lisp 02:17:29 -!- kofno [~kofno@cpe-24-165-213-150.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:18:04 kofno [~kofno@cpe-24-165-213-150.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:20:16 p_nathan [~anunknown@75.87.250.229] has joined #lisp 02:20:27 -!- rtoym [~chatzilla@24.130.4.105] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:24:08 Fare [~fare@173-9-65-97-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 02:24:42 -!- p_nathan [~anunknown@75.87.250.229] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:26:18 -!- pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:27:08 dnolen [~user@cpe-74-64-61-245.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:35:00 slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-99-190-98-53.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:39:58 -!- Jasko [~Jasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:40:05 the people in #C++ are assholes to the umth degree, I find this particularly with C++ programmers. I don't know why but tend to think they are king shits. 02:40:17 any idea? 02:40:23 Jasko [~Jasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:41:41 Is Lisp truly homocoinic ? 02:42:15 you betcha 02:42:29 am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has joined #lisp 02:42:48 not as homoiconic as newLisp 02:42:54 cuz code and data have the same representation...LISTS! 02:44:50 ( defun hi (a b c d) (list 'a 'b 'c 'd ) ) now call hi : ( hi I am a list ) => (I am a list) 02:44:53 ;) 02:45:59 -!- kmels__ [~kmels@p579D1765.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:48:16 bxx [~yhiselamu@lap.ee] has joined #lisp 02:48:19 stardiviner [~stardivin@122.236.254.149] has joined #lisp 02:49:18 -!- Codynyx [~cody@c-75-72-25-106.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:49:36 -!- dnolen [~user@cpe-74-64-61-245.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:49:40 Codynyx [~cody@c-75-72-25-106.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:55:21 Hermit [~arm@unaffiliated/grpala] has joined #lisp 02:56:15 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-99-190-98-53.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:57:48 I've been learning haskell for some time now and I'm starting to get fed up with the ever increasing complexity to do trivial stuff. I'm sure many of you here have tried it out too. I'd like to hear your oppinions if you don't mind taking the time 02:58:15 (I've reached the points where I understand monads and use some of them with no problem) 02:58:19 point* 02:59:42 for example, something that's been messing with my patience is existential quantification. Couldn't get the type system to let me de-mix types contained in an existential wrapper 02:59:50 and some other bumps along the road 03:00:19 jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@bl18-71-136.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 03:00:49 lol, "existential wrapper" 03:01:13 fe[nl]ix: haskell. that sums it up :p 03:01:15 fe[nl]ix: what's funny? did I say nonsense? 03:01:41 I got into haskell because a friend trolled me into it, and I went along with it because it was a "purely functional" lang. 03:01:52 -!- Sorella [~quildreen@oftn/member/Sorella] has quit [Quit: (quit :reason 'sleep)] 03:01:58 Hermit: that term is awesomely funny in itselfe 03:01:59 but I'm wondering if it's really worth it.. 03:02:15 fe[nl]ix: how so? 03:02:20 or rather... why 03:03:06 did I just say something incredibly embarrasing in a foreign language? xD 03:03:48 joekarma [~joekarma@70-36-57-169.dyn.novuscom.net] has joined #lisp 03:05:43 Hermit: none of that, I just find that expression funny 03:05:59 I'm reading Camus 03:06:06 link? 03:06:55 Hermit: any decent library. 03:07:07 oh, that Camus 03:07:47 yes :) 03:08:00 I kinda feel you now 03:08:17 somehow it's funny 03:08:27 not sure why though 03:09:04 anyway, if you don't mind sharing your insight with me, please do so 03:09:18 whether it's on the channel or PM 03:09:29 some other day 03:10:24 -!- Jasko [~Jasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:10:28 ... we seem to be having "weird day of escapees from other languages"? 03:10:50 Jasko [~Jasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:14:06 well, today I remembered something I really liked about lisp: code is data. And this triggered a lot of thoughts on the matter and I feel a bit lost 03:14:36 simpler and easier in practice than it sounds 03:14:52 at least CL gets better, IMO, when you start dropping the mysticism 03:17:33 in lisp, to shape code to simplify complex stuff one usually writes a few macros. In haskell, this is accomplished writing a lot of complex monadic code, combinators, strange typeclasses, many many language extensions that are not part of the standard, and what not 03:17:36 -!- cornihilio [~cornihili@e0109-106-182-97-63.uqwimax.jp] has left #lisp 03:17:44 cornihilio [~cornihili@e0109-106-182-97-63.uqwimax.jp] has joined #lisp 03:17:48 with the only benefit of type safety 03:23:30 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:24:50 -!- foreignFunction [~niksaak@94.27.88.154] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:24:55 well, people have their holy grails 03:25:18 I have been trying to learn Haskell for a while because everyone has been talking about it. Certain patterns seemed really interesting, like the iteratee/enumerator one. 03:26:58 But I was thinking about it for a while, and if your goal is to produce a program that accomplishes something, you can either be happy to manipulate something at a high level with types or to interact with it while you're building it, like with slime/cl 03:27:50 I guess at the end of the day I'd rather play with code than solve multi-dimensional type tetris 03:28:35 jacks [~jacks@109.227.37.227] has joined #lisp 03:30:28 Also, I'm really wary of how much everything depends on GHC specific stuff and language extensions... I really appreciate cl now 03:30:42 -!- seangrove [~user@adsl-99-128-49-102.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 03:32:15 but that's my unenlightened view of the matter 03:33:15 I appreciate it :-) 03:33:32 and yeah, I know what you are talking about 03:34:32 brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-142-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:35:16 solving multi-dimensional type tetris <-- this sums it up 03:35:37 cornihilio: that phrase was really inspired 03:35:42 -!- jack_rabbit [~kyle@c-98-253-60-101.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 03:36:21 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A3C16.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 03:37:39 Question about packages and symbols: if I have function A1 in package A that returns a list with symbols that comes from a defparameter (that defines a lot of them) in A1, I can't EQ them with the same symbols in package B that uses this function (unless I export them, but that would be big). What's my best strategy to EQ them? Use keywords instead? Export all of them (a few hundreds)? Implicitely INTERN in A1? 03:37:54 slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-99-190-98-53.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:38:12 gko: what are these symbols for? 03:38:41 do you have to use eq? if not use string-equal 03:39:14 Bike: I parse some binary structures and returns a list of tags/values.. 03:39:37 sounds like you might want keywords, then, yes 03:39:41 jacks: I prefer to deal with symbols than strings. 03:39:49 (string-equal 'foo:sym 'bar:sym) => T 03:39:59 -!- spiderweb [~lcc@unaffiliated/lcc] has quit [Quit: leaving] 03:40:33 jacks: but I don't want the package name to appear. 03:41:00 ok I misunderstood then 03:43:01 Bike: keywords... that's going to uglyfy my defparameters :) 03:44:19 -!- mjonsson [~mjonsson@38.109.95.133] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:48:56 -!- Jasko [~Jasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:49:24 Jasko [~Jasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:50:34 -!- stlifey [~stlifey@183.46.13.113] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.9.1] 03:50:35 leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has joined #lisp 03:54:27 z1 [~z3@60.7.33.89] has joined #lisp 03:55:08 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@217.17.38.43] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:56:36 cxmu [320e835a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.50.14.131.90] has joined #lisp 04:02:46 -!- benny [~user@i577A780C.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:10:37 pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has joined #lisp 04:10:57 p_nathan [~anunknown@64.126.142.148] has joined #lisp 04:12:19 -!- jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@bl18-71-136.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: jcazevedo] 04:13:06 *cxmu* kisses you on the nose. 04:14:11 -!- jacks [~jacks@109.227.37.227] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi] 04:14:18 -!- nforgerit [~nforgerit@HSI-KBW-149-172-198-162.hsi13.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Quit: nforgerit] 04:16:17 -!- LiamH [~none@96.231.227.13] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:19:27 -!- Jasko [~Jasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:19:50 Jasko [~Jasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:22:05 -!- kofno [~kofno@cpe-24-165-213-150.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:22:48 kofno [~kofno@cpe-24-165-213-150.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:25:36 -!- tensorpudding [~tensorpud@99.148.202.129] has quit [Quit: leaving] 04:31:28 -!- Fare [~fare@173-9-65-97-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:35:30 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu2.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:37:14 -!- Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:37:58 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 04:38:47 -!- cxmu [320e835a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.50.14.131.90] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:46:16 -!- aezx [~aez@68-190-58-253.dhcp.mtgm.al.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:46:42 aezx [~aez@68-190-58-253.dhcp.mtgm.al.charter.com] has joined #lisp 04:49:52 -!- gk2 [~gk@li66-70.members.linode.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:49:53 -!- Jasko [~Jasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:49:59 gk2 [~gk@li66-70.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 04:50:24 Jasko [~Jasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:53:28 -!- am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:55:21 -!- imadper [~user@124.126.138.142] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:01:13 -!- gk2 [~gk@li66-70.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:03:47 zerowaitstate [~dwaites@ppp-70-254-44-53.dsl.lgvwtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 05:11:54 -!- zerowaitstate [~dwaites@ppp-70-254-44-53.dsl.lgvwtx.swbell.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:14:45 teggi [~teggi@113.173.17.143] has joined #lisp 05:14:47 -!- fantazo_ [~fantazo@91-119-192-149.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:15:36 -!- francisl [~anonymous@bas6-montreal45-2925067596.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: francisl] 05:19:28 -!- leoncamel [~leoncamel@124.126.209.86] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:20:07 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:21:48 leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has joined #lisp 05:23:22 tiglog [~topeak@123.116.79.181] has joined #lisp 05:24:34 [UCF]deject3d [~deject3d@72.189.101.101] has joined #lisp 05:24:51 <[UCF]deject3d> what security risks are involved with eval() ? 05:24:52 -!- Slivka [~Slivka@31.40.53.196] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:25:21 arbitrary code execution...? 05:25:48 <[UCF]deject3d> hm.. how would one accomplish that? 05:26:04 <[UCF]deject3d> i am looking here and it does not discuss the arbitrary code execution http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eval#Lisp 05:26:14 well, you ask teh user to give you a string, then you (eval (read string-name)) 05:26:14 that's uh, exactly what the function does. 05:26:25 <[UCF]deject3d> well then let me restate; 05:26:46 <[UCF]deject3d> i cannot reproduce an arbitrary code execution (i am familiar with eval() in php, but i am not familiar enough with lisp enough to reproduce 05:26:50 tensorpudding [~tensorpud@99.148.202.129] has joined #lisp 05:27:03 (eval '(+ 4 3)) => 7 05:27:24 <[UCF]deject3d> so assume i have control over "+ 4 3" 05:27:27 [UCF]deject3d: I do not even understand your question's framing. 05:27:28 <[UCF]deject3d> baby me through this 05:27:55 <[UCF]deject3d> how, in lisp, could i make it print "hello world" rather than evaluate + 4 3? 05:27:56 eval is not inherently a security risk, but if you eval user provided data without cleaning the data up first it is 05:27:58 if, somewhere in the program, there is a call to eval on user-provided data, that user-provided code will be executed, and it could be anything. 05:28:18 <[UCF]deject3d> ok, then i am simply not familiar enough with lisp syntax to make this work :p 05:28:26 You need to parse the string. That's done with READ or one of its siblings 05:28:32 yes, lisp uses s-expressions rather than strings like php does. 05:28:37 Then, the resultant object is passed into EVAL 05:28:54 -!- bananagram [~bananagra@c-98-198-236-112.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:29:01 String -> READ -> s-exp -> EVAL 05:29:30 (eval (read-from-string "(+ 4 3)")) 05:29:36 So, flying by memory, (eval (read "(format t \"hi there\")")) should do what you want. 05:29:47 <[UCF]deject3d> does a comment work within eval? 05:29:51 no 05:30:00 comments are part of the syntax, not s-expressions 05:30:11 p_nathan: read takes streams, you want read-from-string. 05:30:26 (eval `(+ 3 ,(read))) ; bad way to try to add 3 to a user provided number 05:30:26 *p_nathan* nods, he didn't test it at the REPL 05:30:47 contrived, yes, but hey 05:31:10 -!- Hermit [~arm@unaffiliated/grpala] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.2] 05:32:30 I'd say eval is way less of a risk in Lisp than in other languages, since it's s-expression based instead of string based. Makes it more obvious when you're doing something stupid. 05:32:32 yours_truly [~yours@c-208-90-102-250.netflash.net] has joined #lisp 05:33:42 leoncamel [~leoncamel@124.126.209.86] has joined #lisp 05:34:02 <[UCF]deject3d> hmm :\ i have lisp code that is presumably running a simple (eval '(+ 4 3)) where i have direct control over the +, 4, and 3 05:34:12 <[UCF]deject3d> but when i try to eval; read "(format t \"hi\")" 05:34:42 <[UCF]deject3d> nothing happens :( 05:34:45 <[UCF]deject3d> a bit more context: http://i48.tinypic.com/ed1yc.png 05:34:47 -!- yours_truly [~yours@c-208-90-102-250.netflash.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:34:48 c.f. Bike's comment about me botching the function - read pulls from a stream, you want read-from string 05:35:13 oy, is this a calculator homework or something? :) 05:35:24 [UCF]deject3d: just to clarify, you're not ineptly trying to subvert some system that's not yours, you're just asking newbie questions, yes? 05:35:40 <[UCF]deject3d> correct 05:35:51 <[UCF]deject3d> it is a small example code from someone, but not a real system 05:35:55 ok. 05:36:11 You almost *certainly* don't want to be using eval as part of a calculator or w/e. 05:36:12 trust this guy Bike, he said he wasn't trying to break into someone else's system 05:36:31 it looks like a dumb system, maybe I want it to be broken! 05:36:34 <[UCF]deject3d> when i use read-from-string rather than read, still nothing happens :( 05:36:40 hehe 05:36:46 ok do you have a repl open? 05:36:49 anyway, you have to consider what the program is doing with your input 05:36:59 <[UCF]deject3d> yeah, i'm not familiar enough with lisp to consider that 05:37:01 it's probably parsing it for you, for one thing. 05:37:12 i.e. READing it. 05:37:33 [UCF]deject3d: lisp gets insanely better when you use a REPL 05:37:37 Easier, too. 05:37:56 [UCF]deject3d: why don't you just post the code for your calculator on github or something, then we can tell you if we see a security error 05:38:11 <[UCF]deject3d> because it is an exercise and i do not have the code available 05:38:18 <[UCF]deject3d> only the system 05:38:28 The huh-wha? Exercise to do what? 05:38:30 Break in? 05:38:36 <[UCF]deject3d> yes. it is a capture the flag challenge 05:38:41 ah, I see 05:38:49 Laff. Good luck bro. 05:38:50 yeah, figures 05:39:01 <[UCF]deject3d> i do not wish to have you guys provide me the answer, but i would like to narrow down the possibilities :p 05:39:07 capture the flag for lisp systems? that's really, er, specialized.... 05:39:24 <[UCF]deject3d> yeah, most of the challenges are quite obscure 05:39:29 I am pretty surprised, I'd think it'd be PHP/Ruby or whatever. 05:39:38 <[UCF]deject3d> php is obviously too mainstream 05:39:43 <[UCF]deject3d> hipsters 05:39:45 Is this a public CTF? 05:39:54 you could always enter #.(print "yo") to see if it's proper CL, I suppose 05:39:56 <[UCF]deject3d> well it was open to anyone who registered a team 05:40:37 link? I'm curious about this group that does Lisp CTFs. 05:41:05 Try inputting the following in this order: first number: t operator: format second number: "hello" 05:41:09 <[UCF]deject3d> http://polictf.it/home/home.html 05:41:49 <[UCF]deject3d> joekarma; no output 05:42:24 <[UCF]deject3d> it seems rather unreliable honestly. if i put large numbers it just sits there forever. i have no idea how lisp handles calculations within eval 05:42:35 <[UCF]deject3d> assuming this even is eval (a teammate said it was, but i don't know how he confirmed that) 05:42:46 <[UCF]deject3d> and.. assuming this is even lisp 05:43:08 I think at this point you should figure out the rest of the problem on your own. 05:43:26 agreed 05:43:44 g'luck 05:43:54 <[UCF]deject3d> well - is there any way i might be able to confirm this is lisp / eval? some language specific quirk in calculating things? 05:44:12 <[UCF]deject3d> if i enter "1 1", "+", "1" , it outputs 3 05:44:21 <[UCF]deject3d> seems consistent 05:44:34 Yes. Rubber Hose Attack. 05:44:41 if it's common lisp, #. should eval at parse time. e.g. put #.(print "foo") somewhere. 05:45:36 see if it recognizes numbers like 4e6 05:46:03 that's hardly unique to lisp. 05:46:06 or fractions: 1/3 05:46:12 <[UCF]deject3d> http://i48.tinypic.com/2ni2opc.png 05:46:39 <[UCF]deject3d> 1/3 + 1/3 output 2/3 05:46:46 sounds lispy to me 05:46:47 <[UCF]deject3d> lispy enough for ya? :p 05:46:49 <[UCF]deject3d> heh 05:46:50 when I worked as a functional tester, I could occasionally force a stack trace by causing a buffer overflow 05:47:10 [UCF]deject3d: did #.(print "foo" work ? 05:47:16 <[UCF]deject3d> no, bxx 05:47:21 [UCF]deject3d: also try 3*3 05:47:29 <[UCF]deject3d> as someone said earlier, must consider how the system is using the input 05:47:29 to ensure it's not just performing math in some other language 05:47:57 output was 2/3, so it has rationals 05:47:59 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-99-190-98-53.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:47:59 oh wait, the output was 2/3 so it's lisp, nevermind 05:48:14 <[UCF]deject3d> if i input: first number : 3 3 05:48:17 <[UCF]deject3d> operator: * 05:48:20 <[UCF]deject3d> second number: 05:48:23 <[UCF]deject3d> it outputs 9 05:48:26 <[UCF]deject3d> so i'm assuming lisp 05:48:28 <[UCF]deject3d> and eval 05:48:33 try operator print 05:49:02 and "nil" as second argument 05:49:21 linse [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1177917310.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 05:49:28 <[UCF]deject3d> first argument? 05:49:37 a number 05:49:46 <[UCF]deject3d> no output, but also no connection close. not sure what it's doing. 05:50:45 <[UCF]deject3d> lol @ rubber hose attack btw 05:51:02 -!- Jasko [~Jasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:51:23 Jasko [~Jasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:51:25 slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-99-190-98-53.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:53:36 Why not try something like, First number: (char-code #\Space), operator +, second number 0. 05:54:38 <[UCF]deject3d> no output / program hang 05:54:45 <[UCF]deject3d> i shall converse with my teammates 05:54:47 <[UCF]deject3d> thank you for the help 05:54:51 -!- kofno [~kofno@cpe-24-165-213-150.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:55:12 Good luck! 05:55:46 -!- p_nathan [~anunknown@64.126.142.148] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 05:58:34 -!- Thra11 [~thrall@96.145.125.91.dyn.plus.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:02:12 Hmm, this has me kind of curious. I wonder if division works as expected; maybe they're reversing the order of arguments to the given operator. It would be trivial to check: if first number 1, operator /, second number 2 is 1/2, then no. If it's 2, then they are. 06:02:27 -!- PuercoPo` [~user@190.41.173.174] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:02:44 <[UCF]deject3d> well 06:02:53 <[UCF]deject3d> first operator: 100 06:02:56 <[UCF]deject3d> er 06:02:58 <[UCF]deject3d> first number: 100 06:03:03 <[UCF]deject3d> operator: make-string 06:03:06 <[UCF]deject3d> second number: #\A 06:03:13 <[UCF]deject3d> makes the program output 100 A's 06:03:35 <[UCF]deject3d> any lisp reverse shell one liners around? :p 06:04:46 interface to an OS isn't defined in the standard 06:05:03 -!- Codynyx [~cody@c-75-72-25-106.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:05:27 operator: eval-when ; first number: (:execute) ; second number: "foo" 06:05:28 <[UCF]deject3d> well generally the "flag" is a file named "key" or somesuch on the target machine 06:06:21 with-open-file ? 06:06:42 Codynyx [~cody@c-75-72-25-106.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:06:55 (Just out of curiosity, what's the output of op: format, num1: nil, num2: "hello~%" again?) 06:07:49 <[UCF]deject3d> no output / just hangs there cross 06:08:32 Bummer yo. 06:08:34 how about if second argument is (print 2) 06:08:44 operator + 06:08:49 -!- Bike [~Glossina@67-5-240-27.ptld.qwest.net] has left #lisp 06:10:28 <[UCF]deject3d> nothin' 06:12:31 What were the arguments you gave to make-string earlier? 06:12:49 <[UCF]deject3d> (make-string 100 #\A) 06:13:06 <[UCF]deject3d> first number: 100 | operator: make-string | second number: #\A 06:13:13 Hmm. 06:13:31 That's odd. 06:13:43 So....that should generate an error. 06:13:53 (make-string 100 #\A) is not, I don't think, valid Common Lisp. 06:14:08 <[UCF]deject3d> beats me 06:14:18 <[UCF]deject3d> is it scheme? 06:14:25 It should be, (make-string 100 :initial-element #\A) 06:14:33 Hm. Maybe. 06:14:49 Yup; that's valid Scheme. 06:14:55 http://docs.racket-lang.org/reference/strings.html 06:15:50 z2 [~z3@60.7.36.253] has joined #lisp 06:15:53 So try, num1: #\A op: string num2: #\Z 06:16:05 That should return, "AZ" 06:16:23 <[UCF]deject3d> it did indeed 06:16:30 So it's Scheme. 06:16:44 <[UCF]deject3d> hmm - know how to run a shell command / list directory files in scheme? :p 06:17:02 check the racket reference docs from the link above 06:17:10 run-shell-command 06:17:39 Or maybe system. 06:17:52 <[UCF]deject3d> my teammates have tried both of those and they did not work 06:18:00 Try: num1: /bin/ls op: system num2: . 06:18:21 Daman [~kawaie@unaffiliated/daman] has joined #lisp 06:18:21 -!- Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-108-45-162-198.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:18:34 <[UCF]deject3d> no luck 06:18:55 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 06:19:28 It's not clear to me that you'll see output of a command you run. 06:19:32 -!- z1 [~z3@60.7.33.89] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 06:19:40 What you're seeing is the value returned to the repl. 06:19:59 <[UCF]deject3d> so... nothing? :p 06:20:00 xxhx [~user@host115.190-226-93.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 06:20:07 -!- Jubb [~ghost@pool-96-241-84-33.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:20:11 So what you probably want is a function to read a directory or file and return the contents to the repl. 06:20:24 <[UCF]deject3d> can i place the output into a string? 06:20:34 sw2wolf [~user@118.112.157.228] has joined #lisp 06:21:00 I don't see why not. 06:21:11 -!- sw2wolf [~user@118.112.157.228] has quit [Client Quit] 06:21:23 I suggest downloading and trying DrRacket. If not for this competition, do it because it's fun 06:21:24 -!- Jasko [~Jasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:21:28 <[UCF]deject3d> in php it's possible to eval multiple lines of code with ; 06:21:50 Jasko [~Jasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:21:56 <[UCF]deject3d> anything similar in lisp/scheme? or is the crazy inner () supposed to achieve that goal? 06:22:06 I suspect you'll want to do something with with-input-from-file; num1 would be your filename (e.g., "key" or whatever). 06:22:16 And then num2 is going to be a form to read the contents and return them as a string. 06:23:50 *sykopomp* wonders what he wandered into. 06:24:45 [UCF]deject3d: just enter three different expressions in a repl before pressing RET 06:26:23 [UCF]deject3d: and to read a file into a string, consider #'alexandria:read-file-into-string (cryptically named, though, I apologize) 06:26:47 Scheme, not CL. 06:26:49 okay, my last contribution to this conversation which has ventured wildly off topic: try operator: begin first number: 5 second number: "hello world" 06:27:20 is there any way to simulate something like green threads in cl on sbcl? 06:27:25 <[UCF]deject3d> output was "hello world" 06:27:37 cross: this is not a scheme channel. 06:27:46 please take scheme discussions to #scheme or #racket 06:27:49 sykopomp: I'm aware. 06:27:57 I didn't start it. 06:28:13 <[UCF]deject3d> yes yes ok 06:28:18 it takes two to offtopic 06:28:24 tsk tsk 06:28:33 Actually, I don't think that's strictly true. :-) 06:28:52 findiggle [~kirkwood@50-194-56-154-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 06:28:59 But there is some context to the discussion: people thought it was about CL up until a few minutes ago. 06:29:26 At the point it was discovered it was, in fact, about Scheme perhaps it would have been appropriate to move the discussion, but ... it wasn't immediately known. 06:29:28 that's cute 06:29:34 cornihilio: this was recently posted to reddit https://github.com/deliciousrobots/green-threads 06:29:39 so now that we're all aware it's about CL, we can provide good CL support. 06:30:04 fantazo_ [~fantazo@91-119-192-149.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 06:30:29 here's the actual thread on reddit: http://www.reddit.com/r/lisp/comments/12g1vj/greenthreads_a_followup_to_clfuture_cooperative/ 06:31:30 cornihilio: you pretty much have to CPS transform 06:31:46 You mean now that we're aware it's not about CL it can be moved? Sure, that's fair. Though it's also fair to point out that this is #lisp, not #commonlisp, and last time I checked, scheme was definitely a lisp. But hey, I just lurk here, and I'm not trying to break the channel rules. 06:31:57 eglayshe` [~user@118.112.157.228] has joined #lisp 06:32:08 cross: /topic This *is* basically #commonlisp 06:32:22 cross: this is a common lisp channel 06:32:26 and I don't consider scheme a lisp 06:32:29 Myk267 [~myk@71.149.244.231] has joined #lisp 06:32:31 so there 06:32:31 there's a #scheme as well 06:32:39 Many people don't consider common lisp a lisp. 06:32:42 *shrug* 06:33:02 and all lovers of the scheme family of languages can have pleasant conversations about the scheme family in #scheme. 06:33:14 -!- Myk267 [~myk@71.149.244.231] has left #lisp 06:33:17 joekarma: awesome! thank you 06:33:21 Myk267 [~myk@71.149.244.231] has joined #lisp 06:33:27 joekarma: where is it documented that this is, specifically, a *common lisp* channel? 06:33:35 stumpwm is awesome which makes me like common-lisp 06:33:41 cross: see topic 06:33:58 joekarma: do you know if I could mix green-threads and lparallel? 06:33:59 cross: in the /topic, as I said. 06:34:03 I've seen #unix channels with System V specific topics; does that mean that one couldn't ask about BSD unix there? 06:34:18 it's a convention dude 06:34:33 Why not rename the channel #commonlisp if you only want to discuss common lisp? 06:35:05 cross: because of reasons 06:35:17 ipso facto? :-D 06:35:35 cross: because of raisins 06:35:44 More delicious than reasons. 06:35:50 Fair enough. :-) 06:35:58 renaming a 9 year old channel seems a little silly to me. 06:36:10 cross: that's sort of like walking into a bar in quebec, ordering all your drinks in english, and asking where it's documented that people should speak french not english.... you might get people talking to you in english and being helpful, or you might piss off a lot of people for pissing all over their culture 06:36:11 specially when we can just shoo people over to lesser ones. 06:36:12 cross: You're welcome to try and convince 200 people to move out. freenode policy would then remove #lisp, as it doesn't folliw the double hash convention 06:36:14 Lisp is 50 years old, Common Lisp is 30ish. 06:36:53 It seems there is few applications developed using scheme 06:37:23 So the common lisp is a de-fact lisp other than scheme 06:37:42 I'm not sure that's relevant. There are few applications developed in ZetaLisp these days; would you tell someone who found an old Lisp Machine manual to use the "correct" Lisp they were in the wrong channel because it was named #lisp, but the topic refers to Common isp? 06:37:52 er, Common *Lisp*. 06:38:11 *sykopomp* walks away from the meta-discussion. 06:38:25 cornihilio: yes no maybe. 06:38:27 I mean common lisp is a de-fact lisp 06:38:30 cross: probably not because there isn't a #zetalisp with 156 people in it waiting to answer your question 06:38:39 as there is with #scheme 06:38:57 cross: people come here to discuss common lisp. go elsewhere to discuss other topics, including which tipic we really ought to cover 06:39:29 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 06:39:37 There doesn't appear to be a #commonlisp, either. >>200 people believe that Lisp is a family of languages. I'm happy to keep the discussion to common lisp, but unhappy to receive a lecture about mentioning scheme when it wasn't even clear that scheme was the topic under discussion at the beginning of the discussion. 06:40:44 user123abc [~sally@c-67-171-79-251.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:42:13 we're not even mad at you for talking about it when you didn't know for certain it was #scheme, although this isn't #solve-ctf-challenges-inr-unknown-languages either... it's just annoying that you insist on continuing an argument when several people have politely directed you towards a channel that could better assist you with your problem and us with our signal / noise problem 06:42:56 -!- [UCF]deject3d [~deject3d@72.189.101.101] has left #lisp 06:43:22 oh wait, you're not [UCF]deject3d. oh well. 06:43:27 It wasn't my problem. I actually am here for common lisp. And I didn't consider the suggestions that polite. 06:43:41 joekarma: perhaps you see my frustration now. 06:43:44 Oh well indeed. 06:43:48 sorry. let's move on though. 06:43:54 Sure. 06:45:20 Bike [~Glossina@67-5-240-27.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 06:47:42 -!- eglayshe` [~user@118.112.157.228] has left #lisp 06:47:43 -!- linse [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1177917310.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: zzzz] 06:47:52 w 06:48:05 (whoops; sorry. Sigh; not doing so hot on the noise level today. :-() 06:48:21 hehe 06:49:21 sw2wolf [~user@118.112.157.228] has joined #lisp 06:49:22 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-192-93.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 06:50:05 hello 06:51:12 pnpuff [~aeiou@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 06:55:23 kofno [~kofno@cpe-24-165-213-150.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 07:02:32 pkhuong |3b| Bike oGMo , i was basically able to get it to work from read-line and read.. it acts weird but i'll post it tommorow and try to figure out what its doing 07:07:15 Anybody here use stumpwm ? How does stumpwm's float-group reserve space for its mode-line ? 07:07:29 sw2wolf: #stumpwm exists. 07:07:52 thanks 07:10:16 -!- Paul_Q [lambdaksub@ool-44c6dbde.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.89 [Firefox 13.0/20120601045813]] 07:11:06 , there seems no body in #stumpwm 07:11:37 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-99-190-98-53.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 07:12:33 slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-99-190-98-53.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 07:19:27 -!- ynniv [~ynniv@z69-94-206-168.ips.direcpath.com] has quit [Quit: ynniv] 07:20:09 pyx [~pyx@108.162.178.78] has joined #lisp 07:24:30 kilon [~kilon@unaffiliated/thekilon] has joined #lisp 07:26:51 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 07:30:27 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-163-123.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 07:31:52 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.85.107] has joined #lisp 07:32:33 -!- pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:40:02 -!- Mon_Ouie 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[~sally@c-67-171-79-251.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:12:44 ivan-kan` [~user@46.218.71.241] has joined #lisp 09:14:07 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@lns-c10k-ft-02-t2-89-83-137-164.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:14:46 Will dynamic bindings affect the value of the variable on other threads? 09:15:14 stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-232-132.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 09:15:14 leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has joined #lisp 09:15:32 srcerer_ [~chatzilla@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has joined #lisp 09:17:09 -!- ivan-kan` [~user@46.218.71.241] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:17:25 -!- srcerer [~chatzilla@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:18:50 killerboy [~mateusz@217.17.38.43] has joined #lisp 09:19:57 jack_rabbit: it depends on implementation 09:20:16 -!- bege [~bege@S0106001d7e5132b0.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 09:20:34 thanks. 09:22:31 -!- cornihilio [~cornihili@e0109-106-182-97-63.uqwimax.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:22:47 usually, the answer is that the global binding is shared (i.e. mutations of that binding are visible in all threads) but any other bindings are thread-local 09:23:27 jack_rabbit: if you use bt and want to make thread local bindings http://trac.common-lisp.net/bordeaux-threads/wiki/ApiDocumentation#default-special-bindings 09:23:59 -!- jarmond [~jarmond@188-220-225-97.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: jarmond] 09:24:23 -!- Jasko [~Jasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:24:50 Jasko [~Jasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:25:02 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:26:06 Krystof, By mutations of binding, do you mean the value, or the actual binding? i.e. Does (let ((*some-global* 5)) (some-stuff)) change the binding on other threads? 09:26:35 -!- linse [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1177917310.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: zzzz] 09:28:58 jack_rabbit: *some-global* is a local-binding in your example. 09:29:13 bitonic [~user@5e09a749.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 09:30:27 daimrod, Could you clarify what you mean? 09:30:53 jack_rabbit: if you do (let ((*some-global*...)) (thread (lambda () (setf *some-global* 1))) (thread (lambda () (printf *some-global*)))) 09:31:04 -!- joekarma [~joekarma@70-36-57-169.dyn.novuscom.net] has left #lisp 09:31:13 joekarma [~joekarma@70-36-57-169.dyn.novuscom.net] has joined #lisp 09:31:51 tcr1 [~tcr@196.214.183.68] has joined #lisp 09:31:55 jack_rabbit: (defparameter *x* 12); (let ((*x*)) (setf *x* 42)) -> 42; *x* -> 12; 09:31:58 I mean "let", which is outside thread, probably, threads share values. "Probably", because, I think it depends on implementation. 09:32:03 -!- tcr [~tcr@196.214.183.68] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:32:16 fsvehla [~fsvehla@h081217181184.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 09:33:36 http://trac.common-lisp.net/bordeaux-threads/wiki/ApiDocumentation#make-threadfunctionkeyname 09:34:03 jack_rabbit: ^ 09:34:21 daimrod, Yes. But if there is a thread running, which continuously prints the value of *x*, and another thread has (let ((*x* 10)) (do-stuff)) then does the thread printing *x* start printing 10? 09:34:26 asvil, Reading now. 09:34:47 -!- kilon [~kilon@unaffiliated/thekilon] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:35:02 jack_rabbit: no, let introduces a new bindings. 09:35:09 binding* 09:36:23 daimrod, New binding only in the thread that sets the binding? 09:36:41 yes, it's a local binding. 09:36:55 daimrod, Even though it's dynamic? 09:37:48 let shadows it. 09:38:03 kilon [~kilon@unaffiliated/thekilon] has joined #lisp 09:38:06 you'll have to use (declare (special )). 09:38:15 clhs special 09:38:15 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/d_specia.htm 09:38:26 jack_rabbit: ^ 09:39:05 daimrod. I thought declare special was only used if you wanted to dynamically bind a variable that would normally be lexical. 09:39:20 m7w [~chatzilla@178.172.214.55] has joined #lisp 09:39:44 According to PCL, globally defined variables are special by default. 09:41:26 -!- sw2wolf [~user@118.112.157.228] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 09:42:55 jack_rabbit: yes, but you used LET, read the spec, it has some examples. 09:46:38 -!- leoncamel [~leoncamel@124.126.209.86] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:48:46 jarmond [~jarmond@188-220-225-97.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 09:49:03 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-192-93.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:49:40 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@196.214.183.68] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:49:49 tcr [~tcr@196.214.183.68] has joined #lisp 09:50:52 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 09:51:19 -!- tcr [~tcr@196.214.183.68] has quit [Client Quit] 09:52:00 kmels__ [~kmels@p579D1765.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:52:31 -!- stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-232-132.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:54:02 stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-002-210.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 09:54:18 mofaph [~user@119.137.60.235] has joined #lisp 09:54:40 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:54:50 -!- Jasko [~Jasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:55:20 Hi, all. How to delete a function already define? 09:55:23 Jasko [~Jasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:57:05 mofaph: unintern or fmakunbound 09:59:44 Alice3 [~Alice@cpc3-grim12-0-0-cust856.12-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 10:00:02 spiderweb [~lcc@unaffiliated/lcc] has joined #lisp 10:00:05 daimrod: Thanks, it works! 10:01:38 -!- yena [~yena@akasha.ayai.com] has quit [Quit: yena] 10:03:14 -!- joekarma [~joekarma@70-36-57-169.dyn.novuscom.net] has quit [Quit: joekarma] 10:03:45 ferada [~ferada@dslb-088-069-039-183.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 10:05:22 mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.98.197] has joined #lisp 10:06:06 -!- tensorpudding [~tensorpud@99.148.202.129] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 10:06:48 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:12:09 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 10:19:42 hello 10:20:27 Is there a simpler way than opengl to plot data in realtime using in cl? 10:20:31 -!- `26 [~backtick2@unaffiliated/26/x-1186543] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:20:48 -!- ArmyOfBruce [~bruce@waywardmonkeys.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 10:21:03 `26 [~backtick2@unaffiliated/26/x-1186543] has joined #lisp 10:21:18 ArmyOfBruce [~bruce@waywardmonkeys.com] has joined #lisp 10:21:54 flanfl [~flanfl@ABordeaux-651-1-35-133.w109-223.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 10:22:01 leoncamel [~leoncamel@124.126.209.86] has joined #lisp 10:23:25 [6502] [4e0cf39d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.78.12.243.157] has joined #lisp 10:24:58 gffa [~unknown@unaffiliated/gffa] has joined #lisp 10:25:25 -!- Jasko [~Jasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:25:26 <[6502]> Yo. Does it sound like crazy talk the idea of allowing (defun foo (x y #'cback) ...) as meaning that cback will be a local function binding (labels) ? 10:25:50 Jasko [~Jasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:26:08 it is a disgusting idea. 10:26:34 a function argument list is not the right place for a declaration. 10:27:20 <[6502]> H4ns: it's just that cback will be in a different namespace... really is that terrible? 10:28:15 -!- ArmyOfBruce [~bruce@waywardmonkeys.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 10:28:16 i find it displaced and counter-intuitive, but that is probably true for a lot of the lisp that you are creating. we are focused on common lisp in this channel, as you might already know. 10:28:39 <[6502]> H4ns: also just checking the declaration line tells you something about how that parameter will be used (instead of having to check the implementation) 10:28:43 ArmyOfBruce [~bruce@waywardmonkeys.com] has joined #lisp 10:29:03 aha? 10:31:06 <[6502]> H4ns: counter-intuitive because you think that the message it conveys is not clear or just because it should be just a syntax error and that it wouldn't be valuable to have the possibility to do it? 10:31:58 counter-intuitive because i do not expect to find declarations in the function argument list. i expect to find function arguments in the function argument list. &aux is something that i know, but rarely use. 10:33:38 <[6502]> aux is really weird and misplaced IMO indeed. looks like something that made it to standard just because there was a lot of code using it, not because it was the right thing 10:34:33 <[6502]> but you can just not use it and it'll be fine (except when looking at other people code that uses it) 10:35:55 -!- maxm [~user@unaffiliated/maxm] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:35:57 <[6502]> but somehow seems that for #'xxx in the argument list the last it's not valid for you, and this somehow puzzles me 10:38:01 morphling [~stefan@gssn-4d003c41.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 10:39:12 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 10:41:06 -!- spiderweb [~lcc@unaffiliated/lcc] has quit [Quit: leaving] 10:47:50 shwouchk: lispbuilder-sdl 10:50:00 daimrod, I was about to settle for cl-opengl before you said that. Any particular reasons? 10:51:59 shwouchk: not really, I've used SDL many years ago in C and it was easy + I've looked at a projet which uses lispbuild-sdl and it didn't look complex. 10:52:18 daimrod, reasonable enough 10:52:22 Ill take a look 10:54:29 shwouchk: https://github.com/ckairaba/bow-and-arrow 10:55:42 yena [~yena@cpe-72-177-30-155.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 10:56:10 -!- jarmond [~jarmond@188-220-225-97.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: jarmond] 10:58:51 -!- bind [~bind@5ED5B26C.cm-7-6c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:01:34 jarmond [~jarmond@188-220-225-97.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 11:04:19 daimrod, thanks 11:10:20 bind [~bind@D4B2749A.static.ziggozakelijk.nl] has joined #lisp 11:18:01 -!- yena [~yena@cpe-72-177-30-155.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: yena] 11:22:24 -!- tiglog [~topeak@123.116.79.181] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:24:15 -!- mofaph [~user@119.137.60.235] has left #lisp 11:24:17 -!- [6502] 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[~jarmond@188-220-225-97.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: jarmond] 11:57:33 jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@bl18-71-136.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 11:57:51 qptain_Nemo [~qN@89.207.216.208] has joined #lisp 11:57:54 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-15-50.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:58:17 Blkt [~user@62.10.10.99] has joined #lisp 12:00:22 shwouchk: bare in mind lispbuilder does not build under macos Lion , i think i remember saying to me you are a macos user if you are not sorry to bother you, and i suspect the same applies for mountain lion too 12:01:14 -!- bind [~bind@5ED5B26C.cm-7-6c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 12:01:43 kilon, I'm actually a windows user with lisp running in an ubuntu vm, but I do remember you telling me this. thanks again for the heads up! 12:02:10 shwouchk: ah nice , my pleasure 12:02:49 :) 12:03:35 How can lisp expand macros at compile time when they depend on the parameters that are passed to them? 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joined #lisp 14:12:42 -!- LiamH [~none@96.231.227.13] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:12:58 ngz [~user@118.97.199.77.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 14:13:12 -!- ehu [ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:17:55 leoncamel [~leoncamel@124.126.209.86] has joined #lisp 14:19:10 (hello 'world) 14:19:16 Is there somewhere portable lib that allows to extract function arglist? 14:19:23 ehu [ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 14:19:28 -!- sellout [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:19:55 swank:) 14:20:41 urandom__ [~user@p54B0EFC8.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:21:29 -!- teggi [~teggi@113.173.17.143] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:22:30 hutch [~hutch@bl17-68-188.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 14:23:39 -!- Slivka [~Slivka@31.40.53.196] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:23:47 -!- hutch [~hutch@bl17-68-188.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Client Quit] 14:28:35 LiamH [~none@vpn219118.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 14:29:03 -!- Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:34:53 -!- Jasko [~Jasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:35:45 Jasko [~Jasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:38:39 is any cli interface particularly mature? 14:38:46 sorry, ncurses 14:39:30 cornihilio: I'd bet on the one that's included in quicklisp. 14:39:41 (haven't touched it, though) 14:41:35 *|3b|* thought there were at least 2 in quicklisp, with cl-charms being the more recently active one 14:41:56 *|3b|* hasn't used any curses libs either though 14:44:23 Yeah, sounds more sensible. 14:44:50 dodo__ [~dodo@199.119.201.138] has joined #lisp 14:46:25 -!- user123abc [~sally@c-67-171-79-251.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:48:11 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:51:19 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.85.107] has joined #lisp 14:56:29 [6502] [4e0cf39d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.78.12.243.157] has joined #lisp 14:57:59 <[6502]> Yo. Is there a way to have a splice-in reader macro (in the specific I'd like to generate some elements for a (case ....) at read time) 14:58:20 <[6502]> sort of #@. 14:58:51 sellout [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:00:06 -!- Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:02:27 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-4d003c41.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 15:02:40 Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 15:03:50 -!- Indecipherable [~Indeciphe@41.13.60.156] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:06:36 setheus [~setheus@107-203-153-73.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:10:53 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@92.46.29.88] has joined #lisp 15:10:53 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@92.46.29.88] has quit [Changing host] 15:10:53 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 15:12:24 [6502]: #. 15:14:03 <[6502]> foreignFunction: like #. but splicing the result? 15:16:42 is there a concurrency library that provides networked thread migration? 15:17:05 [6502]: Ahh. Then, maybe `(case foo ((1) (normal-thingy)) ((2) ,@(splicy thingy))) ? 15:17:24 or maybe a macro(let). 15:18:27 <[6502]> foreignFunction: no... i mean generating at read time multiple case entries (instead of copy'n pasting the same case for "0" "1" ... "9") 15:19:11 [6502]: `(case foo ,@(cases-generator)) 15:19:48 <[6502]> so the only way out is to wrap the whole case in a macro... ok 15:20:06 <[6502]> not worth it.... i'll copy and paste 10 times... more readable 15:20:17 #.`(...) is sometimes the closest thing to tasteful. 15:22:31 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-192-93.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:23:06 <[6502]> pkhuong: that's a cool idea, supposing there's no backquoted stuff being wrapped 15:23:37 gk2 [~gk@24-179-210-90.dhcp.roch.mn.charter.com] has joined #lisp 15:25:18 kilon_alios [~kilon@178.128.201.114.dsl.dyn.forthnet.gr] has joined #lisp 15:26:11 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:26:12 -!- kilon [~kilon@unaffiliated/thekilon] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:27:25 -!- asvil [~user@ns.osvtl.spb.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 15:30:02 The_third_man [~The_third@47319hpv099117.ikoula.com] has joined #lisp 15:30:19 rmathews [~roshan@117.193.192.255] has joined 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joined #lisp 17:10:26 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@92.46.29.88] has quit [Changing host] 17:10:26 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 17:10:27 tcr [~tcr@196.214.183.68] has joined #lisp 17:10:54 snearch [~snearch@89.204.153.209] has joined #lisp 17:11:51 ah 17:12:21 -!- foreignFunction [~niksaak@94.27.88.148] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:12:24 -!- snearch [~snearch@89.204.153.209] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 17:12:35 -!- rmathews [~roshan@117.193.192.255] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:13:00 rmathews [~roshan@117.193.192.255] has joined #lisp 17:13:24 Xizor [~Xizor@c83-252-198-185.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 17:15:18 foreignFunction [~niksaak@94.27.89.182] has joined #lisp 17:15:57 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 17:18:55 <[6502]> pkhuong: I resorted to (case ... #.(progn (defun gencase (x) ...) (gencase 1)) #.(gencase 2) #.(gencase 3) ... ) 17:20:22 <[6502]> pkhuong: is that legal? 17:20:24 qhcr [~user@94.123.220.37] has joined #lisp 17:20:24 Jubb [~ghost@pool-96-241-84-33.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:20:45 defun in #. is strange. 17:20:55 <[6502]> yeah... that's why i'm asking 17:20:56 -!- Jasko [~Jasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:20:59 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:21:23 Jasko [~Jasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:21:34 -!- qhcr [~user@94.123.220.37] has quit [Client Quit] 17:21:35 -!- leo2007 [~leo@182.48.109.8] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:21:55 kmels__ [~kmels@p579D1765.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:23:19 Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-108-45-162-198.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:24:24 [6502]: why defun and not flet/labels? 17:25:09 <[6502]> sykopomp: i cannot keep the context from one case entry to the next 17:25:33 <[6502]> sykopomp: and there is no splicing #.@ reader macro 17:25:56 what do you mean? 17:26:24 <[6502]> sykopomp: a reader macro that splices the result instead of returning a single value 17:27:06 <[6502]> sykopomp: #. works like , ... but but at read time.... however there's no equivalent for ,@ afaik 17:27:10 progn returns a single value, too, though.. 17:27:40 <[6502]> sykopomp: yeah... i'm using progn-defun-call for the first case and just call for the other cases 17:27:56 ok 17:27:58 <[6502]> sykopomp: but defining a function at read time sounds weird 17:28:43 -!- stardiviner [~stardivin@122.236.254.149] has quit [Quit: my website: http://stardiviner.dyndns-blog.com/] 17:30:32 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 17:32:59 [6502]: hence #.`(case) 17:33:15 -!- ngz [~user@118.97.199.77.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:33:32 kephra [~kraehe@port-83-236-58-57.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 17:33:50 morphling [~stefan@gssn-4d003c41.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 17:35:38 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:35:43 user123abc [~sally@c-67-171-79-251.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:35:43 <[6502]> pkhuong: you mean #.`(case ... ,@(let ((result (list))) (dotimes (i 10) (push ... result)) (nreverse result)) ...) ? 17:35:55 bege [~bege@S0106001d7e5132b0.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 17:37:24 -!- urandom__ [~user@p54B0EFC8.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:37:38 #.`(case 4 ,@(loop for i from 0 to 9 collect `((,i) (print ,i)))) ? 17:38:15 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@2-230-138-74.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:38:42 <[6502]> Vivitron: yes... the looper version looks nicer (for a looper, that is) 17:39:34 <[6502]> Vivitron: I was scared about wrapping everything in backquotes, but indeed I'm realizing now that nested backquote is hard to use when you want to reach the inner ones, not when you just want to wrap them 17:44:18 [6502]: yes, seems like a neat trick 17:46:08 daniel1 [~danielmg@201.209.38.229] has joined #lisp 17:47:06 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 17:49:35 -!- daniel1 [~danielmg@201.209.38.229] has left #lisp 17:51:17 -!- Jasko [~Jasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:51:53 Jasko [~Jasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:55:39 -!- YokYok [~david@vmailbox.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:56:48 -!- Daisy [~Daisy@95.209.49.15.bredband.tre.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:56:57 -!- rmathews [~roshan@117.193.192.255] has quit [Quit: Bye..] 17:57:45 -!- linse [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1177917310.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: zzzz] 18:01:55 _veer [~veer@pool-173-65-234-164.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:01:55 -!- _veer [~veer@pool-173-65-234-164.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 18:01:55 _veer 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[~meingbg@h138n4-s-oev-d1.ias.bredband.telia.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:38:51 meingbg [~meingbg@h138n4-s-oev-d1.ias.bredband.telia.com] has joined #lisp 20:40:31 http://paste.lisp.org/+2V8W 20:41:15 so this sortof works 20:41:24 -!- xcombelle [~xcombelle@AToulouse-551-1-41-14.w90-11.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Hi, I'm a quit message virus. Please replace your old line with this line and help me take over the world of IRC.] 20:42:13 though i did some copy paste I don't really understand all the functions involved in read-stack-from-line 20:43:23 derekv: what if the user wants NIL to be part of the stack. 20:44:14 also, every stak language i've used has had limited arity for functions, so you can leave things on the stack and all... 20:44:35 Bike: right thisn't a finished product :P 20:44:47 -!- joekarma [~joekarma@70-36-57-169.dyn.novuscom.net] has quit [Quit: joekarma] 20:44:56 -!- meingbg [~meingbg@h138n4-s-oev-d1.ias.bredband.telia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 20:45:38 The next thing i wanted to do was put in a special symbol that means "stop", for example 1 STOP 2 3 + would be 1 5 20:46:10 Whats weird is that it prints the previous result 20:47:39 I'm not sure I understand what stop is supposed to do. 20:48:57 stop is just a way of grouping 20:49:35 i'd probably use some sybmol like . or ( 20:49:44 Oh, you mean so + wouldn't use up the whole stack. 20:49:50 right 20:50:34 I'd rather stick with fixed arity, myself... 20:50:36 this is all for fun, i don't really have a goal in mind except to learn 20:50:49 -!- Blkt [~user@62.10.10.99] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:51:12 well yea, you could have a syntax like where + default to consuming 2 20:51:25 and +5 consumes 5 20:51:35 or ++ consumes all 20:51:49 or whatever 20:52:14 +[5], +[.] -- consume till you see . 20:54:22 -!- Jasko [~Jasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:54:28 -!- _veer [~veer@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:54:48 <[6502]> derekv: wouldn't be better to use the stack the other way around? I mean pushing numbers for examples and popping arguments for function calls... 20:54:53 Jasko [~Jasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:56:40 Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has joined #lisp 20:56:52 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu2.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:57:19 LiamH [~none@96.231.227.13] has joined #lisp 20:57:26 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.234.45] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:59:25 blbef [~chatzilla@089144206067.atnat0015.highway.a1.net] has joined #lisp 21:00:03 [6502]: hmm well, i do notice that the way I'm doing it is going to apply the arguments in reverse the expected order 21:00:18 but I'm not sure that is what your saying 21:01:32 <[6502]> derekv: I was simply seeing that common lisp lists are easier to work at the beginning, instead that at the end; just keeping the stack in the opposite order would simplify processing 21:01:49 dsp [dsp@antenora.aculei.net] has joined #lisp 21:01:54 <[6502]> derekv: for example (push 42 stack) instead of (setf stack (append stack (list 42))) 21:01:55 [6502]: yea I think your probably right 21:01:58 -!- Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:02:22 push and pop are designed for working with lists as stacks, so 21:02:25 urandom__ [~user@p54B0EEF7.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:02:31 [6502]: i figured I might end up working that way 21:02:41 i did this in a couple hours yesterday during meetings :P 21:02:59 Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has joined #lisp 21:04:38 why does print end up printing the result from the previous line in my loop. thats just weird 21:05:43 dnolen [~user@cpe-74-64-61-245.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:07:02 Re-L [~Arttt@26-49-202-46.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 21:09:55 derekv: http://paste.lisp.org/+2V8X here's a basic stack language I implemented a while ago, if you want to see how I'd do it. 21:11:46 <`26> Hi. I am currently designing a Lisp dialect, and while I have fairly well captured the elementary forms and functions which can be composed to implement everything else. 21:12:30 <`26> *...else, I haven't managed to wrap my head around how the macro system should work, and how it should interact with 1) the toplevel environment, and 2) the module system. 21:12:56 -!- m7w [~chatzilla@178.172.214.55] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:13:41 jeti` [~user@p548E98F4.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:14:27 Bike: cool 21:14:44 qNemo [~qN@89.207.216.208] has joined #lisp 21:14:46 though I forgot some close parens, shame. 21:15:05 `26: explain? 21:15:35 Bike: is a program also a valid stack? ( "homoiconic" I think? ) 21:15:54 -!- bitonic [~user@host86-138-96-107.range86-138.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:15:55 -!- _d3f [~freedo@46.183.216.234] has quit [Quit: ~ The Gnu went back to savannah ~] 21:16:18 yes. 21:16:32 the language is basically a turing tarpit version of Joy. 21:16:59 <`26> Bike: For instance, what if I wish to eval something in a copy of the current environment, and also want the eval'd code to be macroexpanded according to the macros in the current environment? 21:17:09 -!- jeti [~user@p548E9E44.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 21:17:27 <`26> Basically, it's the natural issue arising from the non-first-classness of macros. 21:17:34 -!- qptain_Nemo [~qN@89.207.216.208] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:18:08 Macroexpand takes an environment argument. 21:22:01 <`26> Bike: Would you happen to have some references on macroexpansion? Basically I'm having difficulty understanding what the environment looks like at macroexpansion time. 21:22:16 <`26> (For instance, to be able to compile code afterwards) 21:23:32 -!- tali713 [~user@c-76-17-236-129.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:24:45 -!- Jasko [~Jasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:24:52 In CL macroexpansion environments (environments available to macroexpander functions) are only guaranteed to have what you need for macroexpansion, i.e. lexically apparent macros. And they can be retrieved using macro-function. 21:25:23 Jasko [~Jasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:25:54 reading about Joy now 21:26:30 derekv: the language itself is Underload, http://esolangs.org/wiki/Underload but I don't think the specifics are too important to the general way what I did works. 21:27:23 -!- qNemo [~qN@89.207.216.208] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:29:35 qptain_Nemo [~qN@89.207.216.208] has joined #lisp 21:29:45 p_nathan [~anunknown@75.87.250.229] has joined #lisp 21:30:14 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.85.107] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:31:13 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-192-93.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 21:32:01 Joreji [~thomas@69-219.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 21:33:14 -!- tcr [~tcr@196.214.183.68] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:33:20 -!- Indecipherable [~Indeciphe@41.13.52.240] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:33:29 I was loosely thinking about a langaue with stacks (sequences typically treated as stacks), everything on the stack has a type and functions are basically similar to "generics". in addition to the sequential data, a "stack" is also a context that holds definitions for functions, and a pointer to a parent stack (and it'd definitions), so we have a sort of ihneritance/override ability 21:33:47 so a stack is also a scope 21:34:10 -!- p_nathan [~anunknown@75.87.250.229] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:34:29 although at that point I need a better word to use than "stack" 21:34:36 maybe a frame or a context 21:35:09 nothing really original I'm afraid. 21:36:23 -!- superflit [~superflit@65-128-71-26.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:36:54 superflit [~superflit@65-128-71-26.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 21:38:34 -!- Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:39:13 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:39:22 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 21:39:55 why are all cl libraries so poorly documented? 21:40:27 *|3b|* blames not enough users 21:41:18 shwouchk: all the stuff that edi weit and zach beane wrote is documented well. 21:41:29 shwouchk: as is lparallel. 21:41:59 just two guys? 21:42:13 take for example cl-opengl 21:42:16 shwouchk: no, but they've created a lot of useful libraries. 21:42:24 I see 21:42:38 shwouchk: IIUC, cl-opengl is documented by the opengl standard. 21:42:59 francogrex [~user@109.130.30.215] has joined #lisp 21:43:20 shwouchk: you asked "why are all cl libraries so poorly documented?" and i replied with examples of libraries that are documented well. 21:43:59 *|3b|* will document cl-opengl eventually if nobody else does first, feel free to apply large piles of money if you would like it done faster :( 21:44:31 pkhuong, IIUC? cl-opengl is opengl 2.0, which isn't even on that website. Also, "the standard" documents it in C++ 21:44:41 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 21:44:49 H4ns, fine, "why are so many ..... 21:44:52 :) 21:44:57 <|3b|> shwouchk: 'the standard' is language agnostic, and specifies bindings cof C (not c++) 21:45:12 <|3b|> s/cof/for/ 21:45:12 you will be lucky to find good documentation even for python on opengl matters 21:45:29 3d is strictly a C/C++ territory 21:45:39 zophy [~sy@213.sub-75-234-57.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 21:45:50 <|3b|> the %gl package is low-level bindings that correspond directly to the C API (but you need to use cffi for all the pointer stuff) 21:46:30 <|3b|> the GL package contains nicer wrappers for (some of) the low-level bindings, and generally translates fairly easily from the C api 21:47:16 shwouchk: if you like documentation, you may actually get something from commercial lisps and their bundled libraries. 21:47:45 <|3b|> cl-opengl doesn't favor any particular version of GL, low-level bindings support all the way up to 4.3 with reasonably current extensions, higher-level bindings are a bit more mixed in what versions are supported (patches welcome) 21:47:45 you want to see poorly documented? see my implementation of the scan-test: http://francogrex.site50.net/ 21:48:45 |3b|: thats good news indeed 21:48:59 would love to try some opengl stuff with common lisp at some point 21:49:16 H4ns, I installed lispworks, but didn't like it. other versions you would recommend? 21:49:31 wonder if that ES support lib has had success 21:49:38 shwouchk: there is allegro cl 21:49:45 Kvaks_ [~kvaks@92.169.189.109.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 21:49:47 good night 21:50:00 -!- kilon [~kilon@unaffiliated/thekilon] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:50:08 <|3b|> cl-opengl might work on opengl ES as well, since they added ES compatibility extensions to recent desktop GL 21:50:09 francogrex, that's not a point to bragg about 21:51:01 no idea what that is 21:51:12 @|3b| 21:51:46 <|3b|> shwouchk: ? 21:51:56 nevermind, looked it up already 21:52:03 ES is a smaller subset of GL plus some specific functions 21:52:10 for embedded solutions 21:52:27 yes 21:52:30 <|3b|> ES isn't exactly a subset (at least until the compatibility stuff) 21:52:59 well, anyway, would anyone care to point at a documented library for realtime graphics? 21:53:25 -!- Kvaks [~kvaks@233.156.189.109.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:54:04 shwouchk: there is none. 21:54:37 :( 21:55:12 that would seriously hamper my attempt to learn lisp 21:55:23 <|3b|> we're lucky to have enough devs to keep up with features, much less docs :( 21:55:23 -!- Jasko [~Jasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:55:53 Jasko [~Jasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:55:54 -!- Daisy [~Daisy@109.58.1.198.bredband.tre.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:56:32 Daisy [~Daisy@109.58.164.48.bredband.tre.se] has joined #lisp 21:57:26 |3b|, have you considered that maybe the lack of docs is part of the problem? 21:57:30 *|3b|* thought lispbuilder-sdl had a bunch of docs, if 2d is enough (and if you can get it to work and if old sdl is enough) 21:57:48 I don't need 3d 21:57:55 <|3b|> shwouchk: doesn't magically give me more time either way, even if it is a problem :/ 21:57:57 just want to do some realtime plotting 21:58:32 shwouchk: did you consider that nobody pays people for writing lisp libraries, basically? 21:58:55 shwouchk: so if you demand documentation like you do, you need to turn to commercial offerings or use another language. 21:59:09 <|3b|> or write docs :) 21:59:51 |3b|, I do write docs to stuff I produce... 22:00:21 -!- agumonkey [~agu@183.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:00:38 -!- user123abc [~sally@CMU-799241.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:00:57 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.30.215] has left #lisp 22:00:59 H4ns, I do not demand anything, I'm just not happy with the state of affairs. I think its a fairly common convention for people to document code they release as libraries 22:01:12 shwouchk: so? 22:01:37 especially since usually people release those in the hopes that they would be used by others, so it would only make sense to make them accessible 22:01:59 lisp libs are moreso personal solutions and dont need docs, hence the multitude of choices for a given functionality. 22:02:11 shwouchk: people sometimes just release stuff because github is a great way to back up code. 22:02:14 shwouchk: what are you trying to achive with your talk? 22:02:17 also lispers like to learn, and understand the code themselves 22:02:55 But I do agree, at least put a readme in there, or a small example file if you publish code. 22:03:23 shwouchk: I know a couple people who understood opengl, but were still learning CL, who did fine with cl-opengl. If you're trying to learn both at the same time, things are different. 22:03:47 -!- rdqfdx [~rdqfdx@78.90.88.244] has quit [Quit: terminated!] 22:04:22 axion, you claim that stuff you put on a package database is a "personal solution"? plus, from what I've seen, I would be lucky to have a single solution, let alone multitude 22:05:07 shwouchk: so you're saying that quicklisp should not include undocumented libraries? 22:05:13 pkhuong, I am indeed at that stage 22:05:29 shwouchk: maybe you want to volunteer to create a quicklisp distribution that contains only stuff that you consider documented properly? 22:05:48 H4ns, perhaps when I feel versed enough in lisp 22:06:38 shwouchk: ok. until then, maybe you could just ask specific questions rather than complaining how you don't like things? 22:08:46 user123abc [~sally@CMU-799241.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has joined #lisp 22:08:52 -!- stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-234-224.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:09:39 H4ns, I'm not complaining - I do want to know why this state persists. I would assume that after x0 years of existance, a language would have plenty of usable and well documented libraries, and want to know where is the mistake in my assumption 22:10:52 ikki [~ikki@189.247.234.45] has joined #lisp 22:10:55 <|3b|> too many devs, not enough users 22:11:35 <|3b|> being a particularly old language probably doesn't help 22:11:40 also, the particular thing you're looking for may not have as much work done on it in lisp as other things. 22:11:43 shwouchk: the user base of common lisp is small, many libraries are not used over a long time, finding and installing libraries used to be hard. 22:12:03 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:12:04 (harder than just writing a new library, in many cases) 22:12:12 Hermit [~arm@unaffiliated/grpala] has joined #lisp 22:12:35 shwouchk: Lisp is pretty much at the line between being an obscure language nobody uses, and a mainstream language people use al lot, so in this no mans land you have this situation. Nobody complains for lack of brainfuck libraries and documentation :) 22:12:50 |3b|, are devs not *the* users of the language? 22:13:16 <|3b|> shwouchk: they aren't the users of the libraries, if they just write their own version instead 22:14:00 has anyone here worked with allegro? I would consider to acually buy a license if it is any good 22:14:14 <|3b|> so it is a problem if the % of people who would rather write a new lib vs figure out and improve an existing one is too high 22:14:17 s/any/very/ 22:14:27 shwouchk: it is good, but the licensing terms are so that i would not normally buy a license. 22:14:43 H4ns, what in particular? 22:15:10 shwouchk: you need to talk to them for runtime pricing. 22:15:20 shwouchk, To write documentation, you need to have both a) knowledge of what you're documenting and b) motivation to document it. Often you'll have one or the other but not both. 22:15:38 shwouchk: the development system is licensed per-seat and is already quite expensive 22:15:43 -!- Kvaks_ is now known as Kvaks 22:16:43 Thra11, I think, though I may be wrong, that usually the poeple who document are those who write the code 22:17:51 shwouchk, Indeed. but if they're primarily writing it for their own use and just release it as is in the hope it may be useful, then the motivation to document is lacking/ 22:18:41 *|3b|* has motivation but not time 22:19:42 |3b|, make that 3 requirements then: knowledge, motivation, time 22:19:59 <|3b|> Thra11: don't forget ability to write well 22:20:15 |3b|, don't you find that stuff you don't document you forget exactly how they work after a while? 22:20:58 <|3b|> shwouchk: most of the stuff i forget how it works isn't finished enough to document anyway :/ 22:21:03 i find that i rarely read documentation for libraries that i already know well. in those, i read the source 22:21:17 |3b|, true. I've come across the occasional project where the source code is easier to read than the documentation. 22:21:24 *|3b|* doesn't forget cl-opengl stuff much, or if i do i just use the C docs 22:22:03 <|3b|> not that i understand how all of cl-opengl works in the first place 22:22:03 and as going to the source of a library is so easy in lisp (much easier than with any other language that i have used, except for smalltalk), it is usually faster to look at how things work rather than working through the documentation. 22:22:47 this is particularly true as lisp library documentation is very inhomogenous. 22:22:52 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-192-93.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:23:13 SanderM [~quassel@vhe-400104.sshn.net] has joined #lisp 22:24:30 AlbireoX [~AlbireoX@76.78.168.23] has joined #lisp 22:24:51 -!- kanru [~kanru@kanru-1-pt.tunnel.tserv15.lax1.ipv6.he.net] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net] 22:24:56 tali713 [~user@c-76-17-236-129.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:26:00 -!- Jasko [~Jasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:26:23 Jasko [~Jasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:27:49 bitonic [~user@host86-138-96-107.range86-138.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 22:30:06 -!- ehu [ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:30:20 -!- xpoqz [~xpoqz@80.203.124.203] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:33:16 sellout [~Adium@65.101.242.214] has joined #lisp 22:33:48 tcr [~tcr@196.214.183.68] has joined #lisp 22:35:30 -!- Re-L [~Arttt@26-49-202-46.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Quit:     (xchat 2.4.5  )] 22:35:48 -!- Alice3 [~Alice@cpc3-grim12-0-0-cust856.12-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [] 22:36:03 Anyone know if libfixposix is supposed to work on OS X? 22:36:28 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-4d003c41.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:36:47 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 22:37:28 morphling [~stefan@gssn-4d00248b.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 22:37:47 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 22:39:48 sigjuice: yes it is 22:40:19 -!- zophy [~sy@213.sub-75-234-57.myvzw.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:40:46 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:40:53 blar1 [~corey@cpe-75-187-151-213.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:41:47 -!- tcr [~tcr@196.214.183.68] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:42:46 sigjuice: come to #iolib if you have problems with it 22:44:51 peterhil [~peterhil@91-157-48-10.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 22:46:00 bananagram [~bananagra@c-98-198-236-112.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:46:20 linse [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1177917310.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 22:48:45 ehu [ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 22:49:43 greetings; i think i'm getting tripped up by the package system here, or at the very least, my lack of knowledge of CL. i've just installed QuickLisp, but i didn't run (ql:add-to-init-file) before closing my lisp session. now i'm trying to run the function again, so QL will always be loaded, by i keep getting ("undefined function") errors when i try to call it. i've tried (in-package :quicklist-client) and (in-package :ql-impl-util), and ea 22:49:45 -!- foreignFunction [~niksaak@94.27.89.182] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:51:16 blar1: The problem is that you have to load quicklisp in order to have that function available, and without it in your init file, quicklisp doesn't get loaded automatically. 22:51:20 kanru [~kanru@kanru-1-pt.tunnel.tserv15.lax1.ipv6.he.net] has joined #lisp 22:51:50 i thought so, and i've been trying to load quicklisp again - i think i'm not loading it correctly 22:52:31 Try (load (merge-pathnames "quicklisp/setup.lisp" (user-homedir-pathname))) 22:52:32 from bash, i've cd'd into the directory where quicklisp drops its files: ~/quicklisp/quicklisp 22:52:55 ahhh 22:52:59 i was loading "package.lisp" 22:53:03 Then you should be able to run the function. 22:53:15 so load "setup.lisp" instead? 22:53:21 Yeah. 22:53:40 Then you can run (ql:add-to-init-file). 22:55:01 um, hm 22:55:05 so, started up repl 22:55:07 -!- phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 22:55:11 in the quicklsip dir 22:55:16 (load "setup.lisp") 22:55:29 "the name "QUICKLISP" does not designate any package" 22:55:30 eh? 22:55:40 -!- user123abc [~sally@CMU-799241.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:55:41 francogrex [~user@109.130.62.75] has joined #lisp 22:57:01 blar1: Try doing (load (merge-pathnames "quicklisp/setup.lisp" (user-homedir-pathname))) 22:57:15 Doesn't matter which directory you're in or anything, then. 22:57:22 ok, i'm confused 22:57:37 why does the (merge-pathnames) call work, but (load "setup.lisp") not? 22:57:50 -!- Jasko [~Jasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:57:51 blar1: I have a feeling you were in the wrong directory. 22:58:06 Are you loading setup.lisp from ~/quicklisp/, or from some other dir? 22:58:23 Jasko [~Jasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:58:27 $cd ~/quicklisp/quicklisp 22:58:29 $sbcl 22:58:34 :(load "setup.lisp") 22:58:37 Yep, one level too deep. 22:58:44 really? 22:59:12 but there's a setup.lisp in ~/quicklisp/quicklisp 22:59:23 ~/quicklisp/setup.lisp is the initialization file. ~/quicklisp/quicklisp/setup.lisp is inside the QUICKLISP package, which, as you saw, wasn't defined yet. 22:59:33 argh 22:59:35 that's confusing 22:59:52 thanks for the help, though 23:00:04 blar1: Well, you wouldn't have to be aware of it if you had just run (ql:add-to-init-file) when you were supposed to ;) 23:00:18 yeah yeah :? 23:00:20 er, :/ 23:00:45 thanks again, seriously 23:00:59 i find myself still flailing in CL most of the time 23:01:17 No worries. Getting QL working is a very important part of getting any enjoyment out of CL, so I'm glad to help. 23:01:34 hm, while i'm here 23:01:37 blar1: But, you might also want to explore SLIME rather than running sbcl from the terminal. 23:01:59 yeah, i need to try slimv again 23:02:06 i had it working, once upon a time 23:02:11 simv is great if you like vim 23:02:16 slimv 23:02:39 i've invested about 6 months into really learning vim at this point; i REALLY don't want to move to emacs 23:03:12 there really is not much to getting it working. i have been happily coding in CL on vim for about 3 years. we are few :) 23:03:50 blar1: Yeah, whatever floats your boat. 23:03:58 glad to know other vimmers are out there coding in CL :) 23:04:53 <`26> Okay, so in CL, macros live in "the environment" in their own namespace (the same way variables and functions are in different namespaces)? 23:05:05 SexKitten [~Oddity@d75-156-92-175.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 23:05:18 oh - one other question: before i jumped into installing QuickLisp, i tried compiling PortableAllegroServ (still in SBCL) and i got a bunch of "package lock" errors. anyone familiar with using portable allegro serv in sbcl? 23:06:02 -!- Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has quit [Disconnected by services] 23:06:14 -!- SexKitten is now known as Oddity 23:06:15 `26: sorta. having a function and macro with the same name isn't possible. 23:06:18 -!- Oddity [~Oddity@d75-156-92-175.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Changing host] 23:06:18 Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has joined #lisp 23:06:54 <`26> Bike: why not? 23:07:36 <`26> Bike: you could still call the shadowed function using funcall, no? 23:08:19 function and macro calls are both written as lists with its name first 23:08:24 `26: well, in the same environment you can't, I mean. 23:08:35 once again, thanks for the help guys - quicklisp now seems to be working like a charm :) 23:08:37 -!- blar1 [~corey@cpe-75-187-151-213.neo.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 23:08:54 -!- bitonic [~user@host86-138-96-107.range86-138.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:09:30 -!- two- [~1@c-67-171-131-23.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:10:47 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.62.75] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:11:46 `26: (macrolet ((env (&environment env) `',(macro-function 'foo env)) (foo () ''foo)) (flet ((foo () 'bar)) (print (foo)) (env))) => prints BAR, returns NIL 23:13:32 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:14:31 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 23:14:33 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 23:17:44 -!- gffa [~unknown@unaffiliated/gffa] has quit [Quit: sleep] 23:17:48 -!- ehu [ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:17:58 -!- Hermit [~arm@unaffiliated/grpala] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:18:01 <[6502]> `26: There is really no serious reason for which it's impossible to have a function and a macro with the same name, but CL is designed that way. Indeed there may be macros with the same names as functions, but they're handled separately ... look for define-compiler-macro 23:19:48 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-4d00248b.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 23:20:00 <`26> Bike: so it's as if defmacro not only injects a new binding into the current macroexpansion environment, but also defines a new function with the same name (i.e. equivalent to defmacro expanding to a similar (defun ...)), right? 23:20:13 Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 23:21:29 `26: sorta, though symbol-function on a macro name is undefined. 23:21:43 -!- fantazo_ [~fantazo@91-119-196-139.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:22:04 er, what it returns is undefined, it has to not signal an error, I guess? 23:22:13 <[6502]> `26: fboundp returns true if there is a macro associated to a symbol, but they're not functions in the formal sense 23:23:15 <[6502]> `26: I think all this is because historically macros used the function slot of top level environment, with a special flag somewhere to tell that they were macros and not functions 23:23:59 <[6502]> `26: common lisp standard simply ratified what was the common implementation 23:24:09 probably something about shadowing too, though I don't think I've ever wanted to shadow a macro with a function. 23:24:33 -!- setheus [~setheus@107-203-153-73.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:25:04 <[6502]> Bike: you shadow macros with functions quite often :-) ... with labels or flet 23:25:22 setheus [~setheus@107-203-153-73.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:25:56 I do? 23:26:14 bitonic [~user@host86-138-96-107.range86-138.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 23:26:19 <[6502]> Bike: potentially :-D 23:26:24 -!- elliottcable is now known as ellio 23:26:45 I meant, I know that you can do that, I just don't think I've ever wanted to. 23:27:34 -!- phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:27:47 Sorella [~quildreen@oftn/member/Sorella] has joined #lisp 23:28:34 -!- Jasko [~Jasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:28:54 Jasko [~Jasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:28:59 <[6502]> `26: i implemented a lisp dialect in which indeed there are three separate slots: value, function and macro... and in which (foo x y z) may be different from (funcall #'foo x y z). My dialect is very different from common lisp in many aspects but I found no semantic showstopper in having three independent namespaces... 23:30:33 <[6502]> Bike: you want the shadow because when using (labels ((square (x) (* x x))) ... ) you probably suppose that (square 12) in the body will call your implementation 23:31:21 I guess. 23:32:39 <`26> Uh oh, I hadn't considered the issue of shadowing macros with locals. 23:32:59 <[6502]> Bike: I agree that normally you know your package and there is no macro with the same name of a local function lying around, so shadowing normally doesn't happen. But you want it to happen. 23:33:24 -!- Joreji [~thomas@69-219.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:33:27 Yes, I suppose so. 23:34:28 bc1 [no@ip70-173-127-61.lv.lv.cox.net] has joined #lisp 23:34:53 <[6502]> `26: Locals that shadow macros are also very important for symbol-macros 23:35:32 -!- setheus [~setheus@107-203-153-73.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:35:40 <`26> Although I suppose I could make all special forms that create new lexical bindings macros which remove whatever names they find in the local macroexpansion environment. 23:36:30 -!- SanderM [~quassel@vhe-400104.sshn.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:37:59 how do I check if something is a list in cl? 23:38:07 bc1: listp 23:38:14 thanks 23:38:37 -!- LiamH [~none@96.231.227.13] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:38:38 tcr [~tcr@196.214.183.68] has joined #lisp 23:39:06 <[6502]> sleeptime for me... bye 23:39:09 -!- [6502] [4e0cf39d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.78.12.243.157] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 23:39:30 Slivka [~Slivka@31.40.53.196] has joined #lisp 23:43:00 -!- tcr [~tcr@196.214.183.68] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:43:05 -!- ellio is now known as elliottcable 23:44:54 |3b|, I just realized - you wrote cl-opengl? 23:45:04 <|3b|> only parts of it 23:45:10 ah 23:45:10 *|3b|* is the current maintainer though 23:45:21 I see 23:45:38 cool 23:46:42 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 23:48:21 kofno [~kofno@cpe-24-165-213-150.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:49:35 setheus [~setheus@107-203-153-73.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:52:13 user123abc [~sally@c-67-171-79-251.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:55:24 maxm [~user@unaffiliated/maxm] has joined #lisp 23:56:41 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:59:46 -!- phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]