00:00:28 ml__ [~ml@p3E9E35E9.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 00:01:17 Euthy: no, Common Lisp and Scheme have pretty major differences 00:02:26 -!- foreignFunction [~niksaak@94.27.88.12] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:02:46 hi, after some break i'm trying to use sbcl again, and now i'm getting an error when compiling a file with a defmacro that uses a defun'ed function (which is using many other functions). the error says the function the macro uses is undefined. In the same file i'm also using this macro. do i have to use some EVAL-WHEN magic? 00:03:02 Adlai`: I was asking about MIT Scheme. 00:03:38 Euthy: you shouldn't have a problem using various Scheme implementations with SICP 00:04:10 ml__: yes, you need the function's definition to be available at compile time for the macro to work in the same file 00:04:10 agumonkey [~agu@183.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 00:04:45 ok, now it's right before the defmacro, what do i have to change? put it in a separate module?? 00:05:18 ml__: separate module, or eval-when 00:05:33 uhm, with :compile-toplevel? 00:05:34 wrapping it in (eval-when (:compile-toplevel :load-toplevel :execute) ...) should do the trick 00:05:41 oh, all three? 00:05:46 I think so? 00:05:47 Adlai`: I'm pretty sure I've seen people having trouble with using modern Schemes with SICP, but I was just asking specifically about MIT Scheme since p_l mentioned it in a way that suggested it'd be compatible. 00:06:02 ml__: 99.99% of the time you want eval-when with all 3 00:06:04 Euthy: that'd be the best option 00:06:06 haha 00:06:08 ok 00:06:29 IIRC one of the utility libraries has an eval-always macro to handle that 00:06:45 probably Alexandria 00:06:49 and even defun-always 00:06:51 for this specific case 00:06:54 and i have to put into this eval-when block all the functions, transitivly, that are used by the macro 00:07:13 quarkup [~quarkup@a85-139-154-235.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 00:07:16 ml__: at this point, you might want to put them in a separate file that gets compiled before the file that uses the macro 00:07:17 ml__: yes, or put it in a separate module that is always loaded first 00:07:35 that's conceptually easier to understand -- the macro is built here, and used there 00:08:12 On the other hand, what does this macro do, and why is it so complicated? 00:08:32 kmels_ [~kmels@p5B13ED1C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 00:08:40 huh, it is recognising "GOOD SHAPE" as i'm trying to build a go bot ;) 00:09:26 -!- L0L0L0L0L [~bob@user-142g2ok.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:09:32 it tries to recognise a handful of shapes in different rotations or mirrored with a minimum of compares 00:09:52 ml__: and why can't it be a function? 00:10:29 because some hundreds of lines with lot's of IF's get generated? 00:10:42 how else should it be fast? 00:10:44 -!- impulse [~impulse@bas3-toronto48-1176441792.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:10:50 (declaim (inline)) 00:11:12 ok, my shape descriptions are very highlevel, i don't want to interpret them at runtime 00:11:17 ah 00:11:23 so you are turning shape-descriptions into code 00:11:27 yeah 00:12:14 -!- kmels [~kmels@p579D1231.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:12:39 that makes sense then. 00:12:45 xD 00:12:50 -!- smazga [~acrid@li336-165.members.linode.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:16:36 impulse [~impulse@bas3-toronto48-1176441792.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 00:16:49 L0L0L0L0L [~bob@user-142g2ok.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 00:17:11 aww, exeute looks just like execute 00:17:17 thanks 00:19:41 -!- findiggle [~kirkwood@173-10-106-172-BusName-Washington.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:20:03 ex eunt 00:20:58 -!- quarkup [~quarkup@a85-139-154-235.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Quit: thanks] 00:23:36 -!- kmels_ [~kmels@p5B13ED1C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:23:41 Khisanth [~Khisanth@50.14.244.111] has joined #lisp 00:24:12 -!- pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:24:23 -!- hiyosi [~hiyosi@19.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:24:36 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:25:17 hiyosi [~hiyosi@19.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has joined #lisp 00:25:20 -!- am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:26:31 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:26:53 tcr [~tcr@178-83-229-138.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 00:27:02 btw, you guys know any recent work of using lisp to program fpgas? 00:27:17 i only read about the sussman scheme-79 chip... 00:28:19 i'd wanted to use lisp to generate write/debug some high-level description, then generate verilog or whatever 00:29:26 ml__: Mark Battyani works on that sort of thing at http://www.novasparks.com 00:29:35 -!- tcr [~tcr@178-83-229-138.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:29:40  and Ben Hyde 00:29:50 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 00:31:37 interesting 00:34:48 and Etienne Bergeron's thesis describes a JIT compiler from a subset of scheme to xilinx bitcode. It's doable, but I don't know if there's any kind of library support. 00:35:30 uh, a jit compiler? hardware EVAL? 00:36:19 A compiler, not an interpreter. 00:36:38 -!- sambio [~sambio@190.57.227.109] has quit [] 00:38:11 there was this book on writing a lisp compiler; I was reccomended it before, but I'm not sure where I stuck the link 00:38:25 Lisp in Small Pieces? 00:41:09 thanks 00:45:04 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-184-206-13.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:46:43 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-2-148-220.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:58:02 oh, and how to teach PRINT to not aggregate itemes into one line? 00:58:17 so, to put each thing into a new line 00:59:32 i guessed it, it doesn't work that way 01:00:25 ml__: you could probably get the pretty-printer to do what you want 01:00:55 http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/22_baa.htm 01:01:57 DaDaDosPrompt [~DaDaDosPr@67-5-194-70.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 01:02:12 i'm just printing a list, and sure using less lines by actually filling those lines is cool, but having a plain list with one item per line is very basic too. 01:03:31 catmtking_ [~catmtking@wireless-mobilenet-169-235-133-131.bulk.ucr.edu] has joined #lisp 01:03:57 ml__: (format "~{~S~&~}" list) 01:04:03 ml__: I tend to use format a lot: (format stream "~{~A~}~%" mylist) 01:04:20 oh 01:04:27 -!- catmtking [~catmtking@dhcp-138-23-59-162.dyn.ucr.edu] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 01:04:29 i just did (dolist (x ...) (print x)) 01:04:39 umm, Yeah, I put the ~} in the wrong spot, but jasom missed the stream param ;) 01:05:02 -!- Khisanth [~Khisanth@50.14.244.111] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:07:33 -!- L0L0L0L0L [~bob@user-142g2ok.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:07:35 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ho1.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:08:05 -!- catmtking_ [~catmtking@wireless-mobilenet-169-235-133-131.bulk.ucr.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 01:09:56 L0L0L0L0L [~bob@user-142g2ok.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 01:15:44 is there some single-stepping debug support from slime, as good as from the elisp debugger? 01:16:00 Slightly mind-bending newbie question: Can one create a Lisp macro that goes off and defines other Lisp macros? (a meta-macro as it were) 01:16:22 Bird|lappy: just have it expand into a defmacro 01:16:22 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ho1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 01:17:15 -!- L0L0L0L0L [~bob@user-142g2ok.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:17:45 :) figured as much 01:17:50 ml__: in general no 01:18:07 Khisanth [~Khisanth@50.14.244.111] has joined #lisp 01:18:25 Bird|lappy: though there will be compile-time/runtime/etc. aspects to worry about, possibly 01:19:00 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@91-119-203-9.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 01:19:06 L0L0L0L0L [~bob@user-142g2ok.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 01:20:20 -!- phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 01:20:30 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 01:20:31 -!- dnolen [~user@cpe-74-64-61-245.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:20:50 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@173-228-44-92.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Remote host closed 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[~dwaites@ppp-70-254-44-53.dsl.lgvwtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 04:01:27 rdqfdx [~rdqfdx@78.90.88.244] has joined #lisp 04:02:06 Question about methods/ method-combination.... 04:02:56 I have a hierarchy where B extends A and X, Y, & Z each extend B. 04:03:16 -!- joekarma [~joekarma@S0106602ad090cd68.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: joekarma] 04:04:04 -!- benny [~user@i577A7188.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:04:31 Can I write methods foo and bar such that regardless of which are specialized on which classes... 04:05:24 the specialization of foo for class B calls bar such that 04:06:09 the call to bar skips over bar specialized on A or B and goes on to X, Y, or Z? 04:07:04 and X, Y, and Z can use call-next-method to get to whomever extended them? 04:07:06 methods are most-specific-first, so if you have a method on X and call it on an X, the gf will call that method first, and if it doesn't use call-next-method it won't hit the a/b methods. 04:07:53 I want most-specific-last (which I can do, but then can't skip A & B) 04:08:55 patrickwonders: probably best to write a macro that calls the function it wants instead of trying to subvert CLOS 04:10:15 pkhuong: Have been pondering that. Still hoping I missed something elegant already there. 04:10:37 (Withou having to write own metaclass) 04:13:35 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 04:14:34 -!- ltbarcly1 [~ltbarcly@pfsense.hackerdojo.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:14:36 -!- antgreen [~user@dsl-173-206-90-138.tor.primus.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:16:41 -!- mast` [~alex@unaffiliated/mast/x-9924406] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 04:18:06 -!- ikki [~ikki@187.240.178.69] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 04:20:25 -!- patrickwonders [~patrickwo@user-38q42ns.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi] 04:27:50 jleija [~jleija@50.8.41.50] has joined #lisp 04:29:45 mast` [~alex@unaffiliated/mast/x-9924406] has joined #lisp 04:38:01 -!- mast` [~alex@unaffiliated/mast/x-9924406] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:38:06 -!- Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-71-191-38-169.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:38:16 tcr [~tcr@178-83-229-138.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 04:38:34 -!- phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 04:39:33 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 04:39:45 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 04:41:02 ltbarcly1 [~ltbarcly@pfsense.hackerdojo.com] has joined #lisp 04:42:48 -!- tcr [~tcr@178-83-229-138.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:43:23 -!- rdqfdx [~rdqfdx@78.90.88.244] has quit [Quit: terminated!] 04:51:42 -!- phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:53:27 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:00:39 confab [~joneshf@086.112-30-64.ftth.swbr.surewest.net] has joined #lisp 05:01:41 -!- zerowaitstate [~dwaites@ppp-70-254-44-53.dsl.lgvwtx.swbell.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:06:13 springz [~springz@116.226.234.55] has joined #lisp 05:11:46 kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 05:11:51 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 05:15:44 Gooder2 [~user@218.69.12.194] has joined #lisp 05:16:43 -!- linse [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1178025755.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: zzzz] 05:19:41 -!- Gooder [~user@207.204.255.250] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 05:21:12 -!- jleija [~jleija@50.8.41.50] has quit [Quit: leaving] 05:26:13 Gooder22 [~user@207.204.255.167] has joined #lisp 05:29:05 -!- Jubb [~ghost@pool-96-241-84-33.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:29:24 -!- ltbarcly1 [~ltbarcly@pfsense.hackerdojo.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:29:27 -!- Gooder2 [~user@218.69.12.194] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:29:30 sodel [~user@S0106687f74a12729.va.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 05:32:51 rdqfdx [~rdqfdx@78.90.88.244] has joined #lisp 05:35:36 -!- mjonsson [~mjonsson@38.109.95.133] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:38:39 tcr [~tcr@178-83-229-138.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 05:40:07 -!- p_nathan [~anunknown@75.87.250.229] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:41:52 ouack_ [~ouack@24.39.127.3] has joined #lisp 05:42:00 -!- tcr [~tcr@178-83-229-138.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 05:45:29 -!- ouack [~nineteen9@24.39.127.3] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 05:45:30 -!- ouack_ is now known as ouack 05:48:16 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@120.159.91.11] has quit [Quit: Bye] 05:50:05 -!- sodel [~user@S0106687f74a12729.va.shawcable.net] has left #lisp 05:53:15 -!- phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:56:03 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@95.56.75.129] has joined #lisp 05:56:03 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@95.56.75.129] has quit [Changing host] 05:56:03 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 05:57:27 jewel [~jewel@105-236-210-224.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 06:02:51 I have a program that takes input like this: (prove '(((+ P)(+ Q))((+ R)(+ S)))) 06:03:14 is there a way I can detect if () is anywhere in the input without just going through and checking for nils manually? 06:03:43 (find nil arg)? 06:04:12 ok find is new to me, reading up on it 06:06:43 Khisanth [~Khisanth@50.14.244.111] has joined #lisp 06:08:49 Gooder222 [~user@218.69.12.194] has joined #lisp 06:11:01 hm, if I use find, it just gives me back "nil" regardless of if the input is (((+ P))) or if it's ((NIL)) 06:11:14 I threw in a :test #'equal for it 06:11:18 still no dice... 06:11:22 is it not going deep enough? 06:11:51 it doesn't tree search, no. 06:12:09 -!- pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:12:11 yeah, so I'm back to the way I was thinking of doing it in the first place... 06:12:46 is there a way to do something like convert the input to a string and then check for the substring "()" if the program is called with input as given above? 06:13:00 -!- Gooder22 [~user@207.204.255.167] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:13:06 that is a bad way to do it 06:13:14 just do a recursive search! 06:13:34 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 06:14:07 I can, but it means writing another function just to deal with the one explicit situation... I guess it depends on how you define "bad" 06:15:30 does «not catching "( )" or "NIL" or ''( \n )» count as bad to you? 06:16:35 hm 06:16:38 well, I suppose that's unfair, it will already be read by the time you get it. 06:16:46 why do you want to pick out nils anyway? 06:18:51 well, the program is a propositional logic theorem prover, and we are given that the input will be formatted in a certain way, so there aren't any complicated checks... 06:19:20 but the way it works is if you try to generate new clauses and can't, it counts as an exhaustive search and the theorem is satisfiable 06:19:37 if you can resolve to an empty clause -- nil -- it's unsatisfiable 06:20:08 the problem comes in the one extreme case where you give it the empty clause in the input... it tries to generate new clauses and can't, so it would say it's unsatisfiable 06:20:47 and my check for the empty clause actually happens like 10 functions down 06:21:09 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-164-180.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 06:21:47 now, realistically, I don't think the professor would input the empty clause... it's ridiculous to do so, because you wouldn't try to prove a theorem if "unsatisfiable" (the empty clause) was one of the inputs anyway 06:21:54 but still, for completeness, I'd like to get it in there 06:22:13 just have it throw an error if it runs into an empty clause? 06:22:48 well, that's what I do 10 functions down, and that's fine and good if you have exactly one clause (which is the case 10 functions down) 06:23:03 but the input could realistically be like (((+ P)(+ Q))(()))) 06:23:05 fantazo [~fantazo@91-119-203-9.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 06:23:38 so I know I can do it recursively, but if there was a way to check it without writing my own function, I wanted to explore that possibility too 06:23:59 you're going to be recursing anyway, aren't you? 06:24:27 I mean just have a (when (null clauses) (error "null clause set provided")) or whatever in there. 06:26:20 -!- p_l is now known as p_l|work 06:26:41 asvil [~user@ns.osvtl.spb.ru] has joined #lisp 06:28:28 -!- robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 06:28:36 -!- Gooder222 [~user@218.69.12.194] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:28:50 schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-008-120.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 06:29:07 hjlee [~hjlee@218.236.65.240] has joined #lisp 06:31:24 yeah, I just did it recursively 06:31:41 -!- ace4016 [~ace4016@cpe-024-074-197-085.ec.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:32:27 (defun check (x) (when x (unless (first (first x)) (throw nil 'UNSATISFIABLE)) (check (rest x)))) 06:32:33 ace4016 [~ace4016@cpe-024-074-197-085.ec.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 06:33:54 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:38:59 tcr [~tcr@178-83-229-138.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 06:41:11 -!- ouack [~ouack@24.39.127.3] has quit [Quit: ouack] 06:43:25 -!- tcr [~tcr@178-83-229-138.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:45:32 bc1: find didn't find it because (()) is (list nil), e.g. (cons () ()). You could use find with an appropriate :key argument to do what your check does 06:47:29 -!- springz [~springz@116.226.234.55] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:49:50 -!- oubiwann [~oubiwann@c-98-207-167-39.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:54:06 -!- phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:57:06 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@91-119-203-9.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:58:41 sodel [~dralston@S0106687f74a12729.va.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 06:59:26 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-101-243.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 06:59:44 engblom [~user@86-60-152-181-dyn-dsl.ssp.fi] has joined #lisp 06:59:52 oubiwann [~oubiwann@c-98-207-167-39.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:00:49 -!- AlbireoX [~AlbireoX@76.78.168.109] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:00:52 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.13.68] has joined #lisp 07:02:36 -!- sodel [~dralston@S0106687f74a12729.va.shawcable.net] has quit 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[~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:23:34 yakov [~yakov@c-2ec2609e-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has joined #lisp 11:26:10 foreignFunction [~niksaak@94.27.88.188] has joined #lisp 11:28:09 add^_ [~add^_@m37-3-123-152.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 11:29:57 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-13-240.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:30:42 asvil [~user@ns.osvtl.spb.ru] has joined #lisp 11:31:09 -!- naryl [~weechat@46.182.24.168] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.9] 11:31:35 -!- pmai [~pmai@178-27-46-208-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:31:59 is lisp more productive than python? 11:32:12 i'm between python, lisp, and haskell right now 11:32:14 clisp 11:32:25 i'm trying to kill python because of its productivity advantages over lisp 11:33:38 -!- varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:34:13 -!- add^_ [~add^_@m37-3-123-152.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 11:34:29 jdz [~jdz@85.254.212.34] has joined #lisp 11:35:04 add^_ [~add^_@m37-3-123-152.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 11:35:59 Inst: programming languages are not productive, programmers are 11:36:46 Inst: every language has a learning curve. productivity is also a result of enjoyment. 11:36:59 well, with regards to lisp, you have the snob / respect appeal 11:37:19 Inst: what i mean to say is: you need to take your time to learn it, and if you enjoy it, you can be very productive in it. 11:37:37 -!- dmiles [~dmiles@c-24-21-251-38.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 11:37:42 yeah but "you can't tell unless you've tried it" is useless for me 11:37:43 ;___; 11:37:47 Inst: try each 11:37:57 i'm trying to figure out which language to learn, as a first language 11:38:02 and possibly only language 11:38:11 and if i learn all three then i don't have a question 11:38:11 Why "possibly only"? 11:38:21 -!- chebastian [~chebastia@c-d875e255.015-51-7673741.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [] 11:38:39 chebastian [~chebastia@c-d875e255.015-51-7673741.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 11:38:57 Inst: you cannot learn only one language and than say you're productive in it because you cannot compare your productivity in that case 11:39:46 Inst what do you want to do with programming? enterprise, science, hello-wolrds? 11:39:46 i 2nd that 11:39:55 Inst: as a first language, learn a language that leans itself towards problems that you find interesting. 11:40:13 Inst: i.e. if you are an excel user and can't program, VBA is a proper first language to learn. 11:40:56 H4ns: my vote to your words 11:41:01 mr_vile [~carnage@9ch.in] has joined #lisp 11:43:02 Inst: if you are just interested in programming in the abstract sense, lisp is not a bad first language. look at "a gentle introduction to symbolic computation". some may argue that going with "structure and interpretation of computer programs" is a better abstract introduction, and then you should use scheme as your first language because that is what the book uses. 11:43:26 ^^ 11:43:27 thanks 11:47:02 quek [~ancient@187.170.180.203.bf.2iij.net] has joined #lisp 11:47:44 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:48:47 -!- Demosthenex [~Demosthen@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:50:46 Demosthenex [~Demosthen@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 11:55:12 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 11:57:21 ferada [~ferada@dslb-094-219-159-105.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 11:58:39 Yuuhi [benni@p5483A331.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:59:42 -!- _spearalot_ [~qalixa@194.218.229.107] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:59:43 -!- Kvaks [~kvaks@75.161.189.109.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:00:27 Kvaks [~kvaks@75.161.189.109.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 12:01:31 if you only want to learn one language and you don't have a specific problem domain, wouldn't common lisp be the obvious choice? it contains the most programming paradigms. so you'll be able to grok the most about programming over time. 12:01:41 _spearalot_ [~qalixa@194.218.229.107] has joined #lisp 12:02:42 madnificent: every great programmer that i know knows several languages and at least three of them very well. 12:04:41 madnificent: the claim that lisp is the best solution for every problem is just a lie. it begins with the poor definition of "best" that is implied. often, "best" is just "best" because it is lisp, when this line of argumentation is used. 12:04:57 H4ns: i didn't want to imply that learning one programming language is a wise decision. though you've spurred my interest as to which languages you'd advise to be 'wise' choices. 12:06:08 madnificent: it is not the individual languages that matter most. a person who knows haskell, forth and lisp in and out is as respectable to me as one that knows perl, cobol and basic in and out. 12:07:57 -!- kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:08:28 *engblom* begun once upon time with gwbasic, then pascal, delphi, java, php, i386-asm, mips-asm, c, haskell. (and some minor playing with c++, python & Co between). While I am new to lisp, I think lisp could be a nice first language. 12:10:12 H4ns: not 'wise' in terms of the respect gained, but of the insights gained. i personally lack experience on the low-level C front. i've done some embedded programming, but not nearly enough. however, if you'd have to pick three languages to learn, which ones would you pick to get the most well-rounded programmer? 12:10:46 H4ns: , but surely a person who is very knowledgeable in COBOL will not be able to create as much as someone equally knowledgeable in a 'more powerful' language 12:11:38 madnificent: i'm not in the "make a well rounded programmer" business. 12:11:56 samebchase: you don't know cobol enough to judge :D 12:12:10 H4ns: haha yes that is true 12:12:43 Who knows what magical hackery exists in those mainframes? 12:13:17 peterhil- [~peterhil@gatekeeper.brainalliance.com] has joined #lisp 12:13:33 My definition of a good programmer is somebody knowing what goes on under the hood. (Like what is costing a lot in performance, what data structures are right etc), and knowing how to well structure a program in the language he is using. 12:13:56 peterhil` [~peterhil@gatekeeper.brainalliance.com] has joined #lisp 12:14:30 H4ns: fair enough. i thought your preference would be interesting to know. i couldn't limit myself to three languages. 12:14:31 samebchase: with cobol, it is all about the platform. the language just glues all the power together, and it has improved significantly over the years. cobol on linux is just for the lulz, cobol on z/os is pretty cool. 12:14:33 fiveop [~fiveop@p5DC11D7C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:15:38 -!- peterhil` [~peterhil@gatekeeper.brainalliance.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:15:48 engblom: that's a good definition. you cannot be a good programmer if you don't understand how the high level maps to the actual machine. 12:16:08 i'd also say that understanding computer architecture is pretty much essential. 12:16:27 madnificent: so here you go: vhdl, assembly, common lisp 12:16:29 Robert Dewar of Ada fame has written a cobol compiler in cobol 12:16:39 so even cobol can have its uses 12:16:54 H4ns: oh. 12:17:25 samebchase: no, i was not entirely serious. that selection would be a bit thin on the abstract end of the spectrum. 12:19:33 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-101-243.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:20:23 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-101-243.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 12:21:01 perhaps i should look into VHDL again 12:22:30 -!- jjkola_work [~jjkola@fw-hki.ixonos.com] has quit [Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- Po-ta-to, boil em, mash em, stick em in a stew.] 12:22:32 cdidd [~cdidd@37-144-197-97.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 12:22:53 h4ns, madnificent, well my 3 criteria is glublessness, productivity, and efficiency 12:23:10 "glublessness", what is that? 12:23:43 blub, probably 12:23:48 And efficient regarding what? 12:24:14 Inst: and, as i said, "productivity" is not something that you can measure without looking at the person at hand and at the application domain. if you are dealing with spreadsheets, VBA is your most productive language and no, lisp won't give you anything. 12:24:16 nice criteria. pick one. 12:24:18 blub 12:24:19 sorry 12:24:20 ;_; 12:24:37 -!- quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:24:37 well, general domain then 12:24:51 quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 12:24:55 Inst: there is no "general domain" 12:25:17 there is no such thing as general, when you look at the long haul. probably at the moment most people are dealing with CRUD systems on the web 12:25:23 i.e. database input and output 12:25:29 (most programmers, that is) 12:26:12 I think Inst is looking for a language that you can basically drop in there where some are using c/c++ 12:26:14 most programmers. no, wait, there is app programming. so, all web programmers. no wait, there is asp.net. 12:26:47 but that doesn't mean web programming would encompass the biggest subset of programming problems 12:28:45 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 12:28:55 Inst: The little I have had chance to look at lisp, it looks like at Lisp (and I might be completely wrong), it looks like it is having pretty wide usage as it is in someway in the middle between compiled and interpreted languages (jit compiling, editing functions on the fly). What is more important when picking a language as lisp for a certain task is to check for libraries, I think. 12:30:41 bitonic`` [~user@dyn1211-157.wlan.ic.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 12:32:12 -!- bitonic` [~user@dyn1204-58.wlan.ic.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:32:34 -!- hjlee [~hjlee@218.236.65.240] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 12:33:13 -!- quek [~ancient@187.170.180.203.bf.2iij.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:36:05 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.2.1] 12:41:41 -!- ml__ [~ml@p3E9E35E9.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:42:42 -!- bitonic`` [~user@dyn1211-157.wlan.ic.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:44:18 naryl [~weechat@46.182.24.168] has joined #lisp 12:45:13 -!- acieroid` is now known as acieroid 12:47:25 bitonic`` [~user@dyn1192-89.wlan.ic.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 12:47:49 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:47:54 -!- peterhil- [~peterhil@gatekeeper.brainalliance.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:49:52 `fogus|lunch [~fogus@burke-matrex.d-a-s.com] has joined #lisp 12:50:39 -!- `fogus|lunch is now known as `fogus 12:51:55 answer_42 [~answer_42@gateway/tor-sasl/answer42/x-66983568] has joined #lisp 12:52:26 -!- Bacteria [~Bacteria@115-64-180-132.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Quit: Bacteria] 12:53:34 -!- yakov [~yakov@c-2ec2609e-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:54:10 hjlee [~hjlee@218.236.65.240] has joined #lisp 12:56:30 nforgerit [~nforgerit@HSI-KBW-149-172-198-162.hsi13.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 12:59:59 oubiwann [~oubiwann@c-98-207-167-39.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:02:39 -!- yrk [~user@pdpc/supporter/student/yrk] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:02:40 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-101-243.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 13:03:17 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-101-243.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 13:09:54 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.214] has joined #lisp 13:11:25 add^_^ [~add^_@m90-141-44-213.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 13:11:26 -!- add^_ [~add^_@m37-3-123-152.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 13:11:26 -!- add^_^ is now known as add^_ 13:12:06 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-164-180.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:14:06 Ralt [~Ralt@eup38-1-82-247-184-72.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 13:16:32 add^_^ [~add^_@m212-152-8-76.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 13:17:51 -!- add^_ [~add^_@m90-141-44-213.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:17:52 -!- add^_^ is now known as add^_ 13:17:53 stardiviner [~stardivin@218.74.186.67] has joined #lisp 13:18:48 -!- stardiviner [~stardivin@218.74.186.67] has quit [Client Quit] 13:19:06 -!- oubiwann [~oubiwann@c-98-207-167-39.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:20:16 -!- eataix [~eataix@unaffiliated/eataix] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:23:29 eataix [~eataix@unaffiliated/eataix] has joined #lisp 13:25:33 fantazo [~fantazo@213.129.230.10] has joined #lisp 13:29:04 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 13:31:06 Inst: I have been learning programming without institutional backing and am using Common Lisp for my projects. Pros include that it is a neat language in and of itself, with a long history that includes interesting stuff and good books -- some of which are freely available now. I think any language-centric selection you make at this point will be largely determined by misconceptions. Even experien 13:31:06 ced programmers have wildly false ideas about the languages they don't know well. 13:31:58 nicely put, Vivitron 13:32:35 -!- add^_ [~add^_@m212-152-8-76.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:33:34 only language so different from others, that it requires you to program in a different way you would with any other, was prolog for me.. All others are variation of the same theme 13:33:39 yrk [~user@c-50-133-134-12.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:33:39 [1]JPeterson [~JPeterson@s213-103-211-58.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 13:33:46 -!- yrk [~user@c-50-133-134-12.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 13:33:46 yrk [~user@pdpc/supporter/student/yrk] has joined #lisp 13:33:58 -!- JPeterson [~JPeterson@s213-103-211-58.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:34:54 add^_ [~add^_@m37-3-38-126.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 13:35:02 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-101-243.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:35:07 maxm: try J 13:35:10 fsvehla [~Fullmoon@h081217030118.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 13:35:14 -!- fsvehla [~Fullmoon@h081217030118.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Client Quit] 13:35:38 It's even more different than Prolog. In more ways than one (syntax). 13:35:59 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-101-243.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 13:38:18 seems an APL variant 13:39:34 frito [~user@cpc16-sotn8-2-0-cust290.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 13:40:16 -!- add^_ [~add^_@m37-3-38-126.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: add^_] 13:43:47 AlbireoX [~AlbireoX@76.78.168.109] has joined #lisp 13:45:27 vanjulio [c6970804@gateway/web/freenode/ip.198.151.8.4] has joined #lisp 13:45:45 -!- frito [~user@cpc16-sotn8-2-0-cust290.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:46:15 frito [~user@cpc16-sotn8-2-0-cust290.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 13:46:56 mjonsson [~mjonsson@38.109.95.133] has joined #lisp 13:47:39 -!- frito [~user@cpc16-sotn8-2-0-cust290.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:48:45 frito [~user@cpc16-sotn8-2-0-cust290.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 13:55:34 stardiviner [~stardivin@218.74.186.67] has joined #lisp 13:55:59 erann [~erann@114.Red-79-154-74.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 13:56:39 -!- stardiviner [~stardivin@218.74.186.67] has quit [Client Quit] 13:56:59 elderK [~k@pdpc/supporter/active/elderk] has joined #lisp 13:57:01 Hy guys, 13:57:09 I'm just starting to play with CLOS and I have a few questionsl. 13:57:10 Like, 13:57:36 In some OO languages, it's the fashion to make the entire application itself, an object. The rest of hte stuff being objects you use inside of that object. 13:57:49 Then you have methods in the class, bla bla bla. 13:57:52 PRivate, yaryar. 13:57:54 Anywho. 13:58:18 I was wondering if in CLOS you do similar things? 13:58:22 There are no methods in the class so making an "application object" like in java or C# doesn't make sense. 13:58:40 But you can make a generic function a toplevel when calling e.g. SAVE-LISP-AND-DIE. 13:58:51 elderK: you export the symbols to which the (generic) functions are attached which gives you the external interface that ohters can call 13:59:02 so, if you were to do something similar, 13:59:12 So a *generic* function can be used to startup your app. 13:59:14 you'd just call your "applications" generic method: say, application-run 13:59:20 or something. 13:59:26 elderK: a function named main, could provide a starting point though 13:59:38 I'm just trying to click to how programs are built with CLOS :) 14:00:17 elderK: you have classes, instances of thosee classes, and generic functions 14:00:25 elderK: and ordinary functions, of course 14:00:44 It's common in CL to use several paradigms in a single system. A part is described in OOP, some other part is functional and there's a small DSL for API. All in one project. 14:00:51 elderK: methods don't belong to classes, that's the important thing to understand 14:00:59 elderK: CLOS doesn't do anything special about it. it can help you, but it doesn't do anything special with respect to starting your application. it can make sense to have an object which represents the running app though. 14:01:03 No, but specializations do. 14:01:21 am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has joined #lisp 14:01:35 defmethod defines code to call, when the generic function dispatch decides to call it on matching parameters, right? 14:01:38 madnificent: the running image is the representation of the running app 14:02:01 jdz: Assuming you make a single-app image :) 14:02:07 it's like the gfunction is like, a container for methods. 14:02:20 jdz: depending on your point of view, that is often the case, yes :) 14:02:25 elderK: no, generic function is what is called. the generic function then decides which methods are actually involved depending on the classes of passed parameters. 14:02:55 aye 14:03:02 oh, maybe that's what you said 14:03:05 It may be intimidating but maybe it's time for elderK to read about combinators? :) 14:03:06 i read it wrong 14:03:12 np :) 14:03:22 I'm just glad I'm on track, at least a little. I didn't explain that very clearly :) 14:03:32 :) naryl : I know baout combinators, at least, some. 14:03:39 -!- kanru [~kanru@kanru-1-pt.tunnel.tserv15.lax1.ipv6.he.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:03:40 I understand what they are, at least. 14:03:46 elderK: could you rephrase what your current problem is? 14:04:03 I have no problem. I'm just trying to learn some stuff for mindset purposes. 14:04:16 so, consider it conceptual problems! :) 14:04:36 elderK | I'm just trying to click to how programs are built with CLOS :) 14:04:38 This? :) 14:04:47 kanru [~kanru@kanru-1-pt.tunnel.tserv15.lax1.ipv6.he.net] has joined #lisp 14:04:50 Yes. 14:04:51 :) 14:05:03 naryl: but that's quite vague :/ 14:05:11 I know that if I try and code programs in CLOS, as I do in C# or C++, I'm going about everything the wrong way and will end up with LispC. 14:05:13 Or something. 14:05:13 elderK: the use of CLOS is optional, that should be enough for the click :) 14:05:15 try tracking down Keene's CLOS book if it is still in print 14:05:16 I'll miss the point entirely. 14:05:19 I have. 14:05:21 The Kleene book. 14:05:26 I'll read some parts again. 14:05:37 The part where she has the remote lisp evaluator exercise :) 14:05:50 Unlike mainstream languages CLOS doesn't give you rails to follow to build an app :) 14:05:53 elderK: perhaps making a small application can help you pinpoint the unclarities? 14:06:01 I'm just trying to determine whether... objects are more for just... general data structures or ... whether they're independent actors or whether that's really up to you. 14:06:06 Yeah, I think so, madnificent 14:06:33 the emphasis should be more on protocols as defined by sets of generic functions than on objects 14:06:38 elderK: CLOS is a very handy tool to make the program extensible 14:06:47 See AMOP as an example 14:06:52 Aye. 14:07:01 elderK: objects can be anything. what you need depends heavily on the problem you're solving. 14:07:04 I bought AMOP just a few days ago :) 14:07:12 elderK: Yes, you should concentrate on generics first, classes later. 14:07:16 elderK: perhaps even more on the domain than on the problem itself 14:07:19 NikolaiDante [~nikolaida@unaffiliated/knighterrant] has joined #lisp 14:07:33 Aye, so the generics are just the interface. 14:07:37 -!- NikolaiDante [~nikolaida@unaffiliated/knighterrant] has left #lisp 14:08:24 elderK: yes. and the exported symbols for which you have defined generic functions describe the public interface. 14:08:30 It just seems still more procedural, kind of. But the object system allows you to have polymorphic functions so that you can have nice, extensible types. 14:08:53 that're directly supported rather than the hackfest that is any kind of polymorphism in c. 14:11:02 I think I need to play and think. 14:11:56 Here's an interface with which to interact with . 14:12:05 Then each kind of bla implements taht bla, perhaps extends it. 14:12:17 That way, any code that uses that interface, is cool, because it can use any kind of 14:12:22 Right? 14:12:39 But the core program itself is likely to be written in the general lisp way - functions. 14:12:55 not really. you're still starting with an object in mind. think of a generic action. 14:13:24 hm 14:13:31 so for a basic game, say. You have entities that move. 14:13:34 let's say we're modelling a rpg game. you have the action (attack aggressor target weapon) 14:13:36 So, a generic action: move. 14:13:43 Slivka [~Slivka@31.40.53.196] has joined #lisp 14:14:05 with generic functions you get dispatch on all three arguments without all sort of pattern kludges 14:14:10 yeah. 14:14:12 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 14:14:35 :) I think I just quarter-clickd :P 14:14:40 :) I'll have to play. 14:14:41 mal_: you can also have that in other languages, like Java 14:14:55 On another topic, anyone here use ECL? 14:15:06 madnificent: of course. all languages in use are Turing complete. 14:15:08 elderK: rarely, but sometimes 14:15:15 Have you done much with it's FFI? 14:15:17 madnificent: he just said "without all sort of pattern kludges" 14:15:18 mal_: though that has nothing to do with Turing completeness 14:15:30 -!- bitonic`` [~user@dyn1192-89.wlan.ic.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:16:01 I'm on Windows so, I'm not sure how annoying it will really be. The ECL build for Windows doesn't have "Dynamic FFI" enabled, so I'm not entirely sure how CFFI is operating. 14:16:16 ECL is natively "UFFI." 14:16:27 jdz: it's not a pattern cludge either. you can dispatch on the type of each argument. 14:16:36 madnificent: in Java? 14:16:39 So, I guess I should write some basic binding with UFFI. But I wonder if I have to compile it as some extension for ECL. 14:17:11 ALSO! Back on the CLOS topic: Can anyone recommend any small programs that're written with a "good technique"? 14:17:21 I know there's no general pattern but it'd be good to see what's considered "good." 14:17:25 jdz: defclass Foo { public void move( int a ) { .. }; public void move( Position p ){ ... } } or something similar works, no? 14:17:42 jdz: you don't have multiple inheritance, but that's another topic 14:17:47 madnificent: show me the method for (attack ) and (attack ) 14:17:58 madnificent: no, this topic is about multiple-dispatch 14:19:28 jdz: ... i don't see where it doesn't work 14:19:42 jdz: you can use the type of *each* of the arguments 14:19:51 madnificent: in Java? 14:19:57 jdz: yes 14:20:17 jdz: in Ruby you have to do it manually, so that's different 14:20:19 elderK: note also that you can participate in a protocol without being in any inheritance relation 14:20:27 -!- Inst [~SouthOfTh@unaffiliated/inst] has left #lisp 14:20:34 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 14:21:15 madnificent: ok, the only difference between attacking with melee weapon vs. the ranged weapon is that ranged weapon has a +5% crit chance 14:21:23 -!- hugod [~user@bas1-montreal08-1167960209.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:21:26 madnificent: where do you put that information in your Java implementation? 14:21:44 jdz: i'm not arguing that i'd pick java over clos btw. 14:21:52 jdz: I was working up to mixins but you go ahead and explain :) 14:21:59 jdz: you may potentially need to implement an interface if you can't participate in the inheritance hierarchy correctly 14:22:08 madnificent: And what happens I one class has two methods with a single argument which is from the same class hierarchy? 14:22:27 madnificent: even in the interface, there is no single place where you can put it in Java; i'd like to be proven wrong now. 14:22:33 madnificent: i expected you to do that... 14:22:40 e.g. player.attack(Enemy actor, Weapon weapon) 14:22:40 jdz: what are you asking me now+? 14:22:54 and player.attack(Wall actor, Weapon weapon) 14:22:58 madnificent: where do you put the melee vs. ranged weapon crit chance? 14:22:58 er... 14:23:01 s/Wall/Actor/ 14:23:14 *p_l|work* ponders if he stumbled into ##java 14:23:30 I'm pretty sure java's "multiple dispatch" is static on arguments. 14:23:40 jdz: you haven't specified anything in CLOS either... this is extremely vague. it could still be a singleton, it could be a method (remember, you have super to be called in Java too). 14:23:41 naryl: java uses single dispatch 14:23:59 -!- adx [~adx@pool-108-28-109-140.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has left #lisp 14:24:15 jdz: now, i'm not saying that CLOS isn't superior. but your example didn't seem to hit the spot. 14:24:17 Thanks for your help, guys. 14:24:21 I'm off to sleep. 14:24:37 -!- elderK [~k@pdpc/supporter/active/elderk] has left #lisp 14:25:06 -!- mjonsson [~mjonsson@38.109.95.133] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:25:42 madnificent: in CLOS it could be something like (defmethod attack :around (foo bar (weapon ranged-weapon)) (let ((*crit-chance* (* *crit-chance* 1.05))) (call-next-method)) 14:25:48 jdz: Java lacks in method combinations (before/around) and in the hiërarchy based on each of the types. it also lacks due to forcing you to write the code in a particular place. it lacks multiple inheritance too. but that wasn't the initial question 14:26:19 madnificent: oh, i must have missed the original question. what was it? 14:26:25 it also doesn't have multiple dispatch 14:26:27 jdz: where does the special variable *crit-chance* come from? you've suddenly introduced a special variable, which indeed is something Java doesn't have. however, we weren't discussing that, nor macros, nor .... 14:26:40 p_l|work: you can specialize on each of the arguments 14:26:43 > dispatch on all three arguments 14:27:08 madnificent: those are essentially different functions - i.e. arguments count into "symbol" you look up 14:27:34 p_l|work: public foo( int a, Position b ){ ... } and public foo( float a, Position b ){ ... } 14:28:01 madnificent: notice also that when i introduce my new lazor-weapon, and define method for crit chance calucalition, the original code does not have to be changed 14:28:12 p_l|work: it still multiple dispatch, afaict 14:28:15 not one single bit 14:28:24 jdz: but that was not what you were talking about 14:28:30 this is leading nowhere 14:28:32 madnificent: that's why i ask where you put that piece of calculation 14:28:37 let's agree that CLOS is better 14:28:45 no, it's not about "better" 14:28:53 jdz: you used features which weren't part of the argument in your lisp example 14:29:17 jdz: you could've used a macro and then said "see, that doesn't go in Java, so multiple dispatch doesn't work either" 14:29:23 madnificent: those would be equivalent of having foo$i$Position$(int a, Position b) and foo$f$Position(float a, Position b), where '$' separates argument types in symbol name 14:29:34 jdz: in java, you'd probably have a method which asks the weapon what its hitpoints are 14:30:01 tensorpudding [~tensorpud@99.148.197.6] has joined #lisp 14:30:26 madnificent: I recalled my last year of java. :) 14:30:53 Those are completely different methods. It will even throw errors if it can't decide which one to call *at compile time*. 14:31:03 naryl: yes, they are different 14:31:07 madnificent: ok, same argument: clubs have extra +5 damage when wielded by giants 14:31:10 And neither is considered more sbstract than the other unlike CLOS. 14:31:26 naryl: so that means you'll have to split out the code for the combination in a separate object. does that suck? yes it does. but that wasn't the question at the point IIRC 14:31:30 madnificent: it's still about multiple-disptach 14:31:36 also, i don't care about this 14:31:51 you're all right, i'm totally wrong. please hop along :) 14:31:57 :) 14:32:00 madnificent: you still have not said what you think the question is... 14:32:54 it started with mal_ saying "with generic functions you get dispatch on all three arguments without all sort of pattern kludges" and you saying that one can have that in Java, too 14:33:54 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 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[~user@dyn1195-99.wlan.ic.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:14:41 Bike [~Glossina@67-5-254-65.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 15:18:02 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@213.129.230.10] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:19:06 -!- oubiwann [~oubiwann@c-98-207-167-39.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:19:08 confab [~joneshf@086.112-30-64.ftth.swbr.surewest.net] has joined #lisp 15:19:41 hugod [~user@bas1-montreal08-1167960209.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 15:24:28 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-101-243.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:24:56 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-101-243.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:30:19 Euthy [~euthy@unaffiliated/euthydemus] has joined #lisp 15:30:36 rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has joined #lisp 15:36:04 findiggle [~kirkwood@173-10-106-172-BusName-Washington.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 15:36:49 ralph-moeritz [~ralphm@196.37.229.15] has joined #lisp 15:37:24 hi everyone, my name's ralph. i'm a lisper form durban, south africa. 15:37:42 ralph-moeritz: welcome 15:38:23 -!- am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:38:43 H4ns: thanks 15:39:25 i haven't been on freenode for about 2 years, so please excuse the lack of irc etiqette 15:39:26 linse [~marioooh@x-132-204-243-254.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 15:40:25 anyway, i feel like a complete idiot, but i can't get cffi to load any foreign libraries on my win7 box. using ccl via emacs/slime. 15:40:29 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@80.63.227.98] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:42:03 sqlite3.dll is in c:/Users/ralphm/Temp/lib/, but (cffi:load-foreign-library "sqlite3" :search-path "c:/Users/ralphm/Temp/lib/") gives an error: Error opening shared library sqlite3 : The specified module could not be found. . 15:42:34 -!- rtoym [~chatzilla@24.130.4.105] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:45:15 rtoym [~chatzilla@24.130.4.105] has joined #lisp 15:45:45 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 15:46:48 i've read through most of the tutorial in the cffi manual but can't figure out what i'm doing wrong. can anyone help? 15:46:51 NikolaiDante [~nikolaida@unaffiliated/knighterrant] has joined #lisp 15:47:16 -!- NikolaiDante [~nikolaida@unaffiliated/knighterrant] has left #lisp 15:47:49 try load-foreign-library #p"sqlite3.dll" 15:48:05 ralph-moeritz: I think it wants either full name or even full path. 15:49:02 naryl: thx, will give that a try 15:49:11 both solved in above 15:50:43 -!- ralph-moeritz [~ralphm@196.37.229.15] has left #lisp 15:53:59 mathrick [~mathrick@94.144.63.81] has joined #lisp 15:55:56 -!- erann [~erann@114.Red-79-154-74.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: erann] 15:59:29 fantazo [~fantazo@91-119-203-9.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 16:01:42 segv_ [~mb@dslb-094-223-004-196.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 16:02:10 slyrus 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#lisp 16:50:29 erm nevermind, figured it out. 16:50:35 -!- optikalmouse [~user@gw.trapeze.com] has left #lisp 16:52:16 -!- mdh` [~user@cpe-76-93-184-178.san.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:52:20 -!- tcr [~tcr@178-83-229-138.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:53:47 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-101-243.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:53:58 -!- yrk [~user@pdpc/supporter/student/yrk] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:54:43 morphling [~stefan@gssn-4d003d50.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 16:54:44 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-101-243.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:56:17 Harag [~Thunderbi@dsl-244-153-196.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:58:16 -!- frito [~user@cpc16-sotn8-2-0-cust290.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:59:53 -!- paolo_m [~user@2-228-95-110.ip190.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:00:04 oubiwann [~oubiwann@c-98-207-167-39.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:02:10 gffa [~unknown@unaffiliated/gffa] has joined #lisp 17:05:52 -!- add^_ [~add^_@m37-2-139-45.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: add^_] 17:06:56 -!- rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:09:44 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.213] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:10:32 pnpuff [~aeiou@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 17:13:08 stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-233-176.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 17:15:48 ml__ [~ml@p3E9E5B24.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:16:02 hello again 17:16:05 -!- AlbireoX [~AlbireoX@76.78.168.109] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:16:26 how to use LOOP to find the value associated to the largest key? 17:16:41 -!- pnpuff [~aeiou@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has left #lisp 17:16:50 in a hashtable? 17:16:56 yes 17:17:30 it's not really all that handy with loop 17:17:35 ah, ok 17:17:56 so MAXIMIZE does not generalize to this case 17:18:11 no. iterate has support for that but loop doesn't 17:18:39 ah, and sorry i need the largest value, not key... 17:19:02 that can be done 17:19:06 -!- oubiwann [~oubiwann@c-98-207-167-39.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:19:18 more exactly: the key with the largest value 17:19:22 :/ 17:19:39 lol now that is clumsy again :) 17:19:47 xD 17:19:51 cibs [~cibs@219.87.142.18] has joined #lisp 17:19:51 ahoops [~ahoops__@121.96.14.223] has joined #lisp 17:20:00 anyway, thanks 17:20:19 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-101-243.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:20:44 booguie [~booguie@wsip-98-172-168-236.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 17:20:49 untested (loop with max-key = nil with max-value = 0 for key being each hash-key of ht using (hash-value v) when (> v max-value) do (setf max-value v max-key key) finally (return max-key)) 17:21:20 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-101-243.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:22:25 and hope you don't have only negative values in your hash-table. 17:22:40 yeah 17:23:16 the problem was a bit underspecified and I didn't remember offhand what smallest-int is called 17:24:13 <|3b|> there isn't one 17:25:19 most-negative-fixnum would do for some cases 17:26:25 luqui [~luqui@c-50-134-131-109.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:26:44 frito [~user@cpc16-sotn8-2-0-cust290.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 17:26:56 HI, I'm a lisp noob and I have a question 17:27:13 if I have a list like '(:foo 1 :bar 2 :baz 3), how do I lookup one of the numbers based on a key 17:27:23 mal_: why fixnum? 17:27:23 luqui: use GETF 17:27:30 -!- frito [~user@cpc16-sotn8-2-0-cust290.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:27:30 luqui: getf, or destructuring-bind. 17:28:06 dlowe: pkhuong: thanks :-) 17:28:13 mal_: well, nvm, fall under "some cases" 17:28:47 jdz: indeed. doing it robustly isn't that hard but I didn't bother for a oneliner in irc 17:31:48 alessio [~alessio@93-34-166-49.ip50.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 17:35:02 -!- ferada [~ferada@dslb-094-219-159-105.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:35:31 ltbarcly1 [~ltbarcly@216.113.168.141] has joined #lisp 17:36:38 summon [~summon@94.180.97.59] has joined #lisp 17:40:09 yrk [~user@c-50-133-134-220.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:40:13 -!- yrk [~user@c-50-133-134-220.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 17:40:13 yrk [~user@pdpc/supporter/student/yrk] has joined #lisp 17:40:38 AeroNotix [~xeno@aafw204.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 17:41:16 pnpuff [~aeiou@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 17:41:21 -!- Harag [~Thunderbi@dsl-244-153-196.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Quit: Harag] 17:42:14 Hi everyone! I just started to learn cl for some reasons. Ad actually i faced up with the problem, that i simply can't understand the logic of naming basic function.. At this moment the names of functions make me crazy.. Even in c++ there is a cout and cin that are just c + out and c + in. I can't understand many of cl basic functions came from.. Why car and cdr why princ and many other. Are there a manual with some explanation with naming of basic functions o 17:42:14 f common lisp? 17:42:54 lisp is just old. get used to the names. 17:43:19 summon: they are there to make you appreciate that making great software takes decades 17:43:20 summon: have you read musical notation? 17:43:34 is it really going to help to know that car = content of address register and cdr = content of decrement register on a now 50+ years dead architecture 17:43:51 summon: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CAR_and_CDR#Etymology 17:44:38 dlowe: what about it ? 17:45:34 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-99-24-162-13.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:45:42 fe[nl]ix: musical notation has all sorts of terms (allegro, forte, piano, ritardo) that you just learn what they mean and move on 17:45:56 they don't change because of the hundreds of years of previous use 17:46:30 dlowe: not if you're italian :) 17:46:42 summon: I think the favorites around here are TERPRI and RPLACD 17:46:44 summon: also, you can use FIRST for CAR, REST for CDR, and WRITE with :escape nil :readably nil for PRINC 17:47:06 -!- kmels [~kmels@p5B13ED1C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 17:47:19 fe[nl]ix: or a IBM 704 programmer 17:47:50 kmels [~kmels@p5B13ED1C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:48:43 clariprincess [~princesit@200.84.67.68] has joined #lisp 17:48:47 is car,cdr the lower end of it, or is there thigns like where you can alter the stacks directly ? 17:49:16 wbooze: WAT? 17:49:25 :D 17:49:55 erm, nvm 17:50:45 izmirli [~zgr@78.164.152.144] has joined #lisp 17:51:17 -!- izmircikli [~zgr@78.164.186.150] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:51:28 (Thanks for fast replies.) Now i can understand the car and cdr came from. Thats quiet good. There is no matter for me about the naming taken from past or modern way. It would be nice for me to find some logic in naming.. So is there any website or something where are explanations about naming? 17:52:12 -!- CoverSlide [~richard@pool-173-55-83-220.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has left #lisp 17:52:18 killerboy [~mateusz@217.17.38.43] has joined #lisp 17:52:40 I think you've already covered most. some of the older ones are no longer supported in CL like FSUBRs and FEXPRs 17:52:51 terpri, terminal print ? rplacd, replace what ? 17:53:06 the cdr 17:53:12 like rplaca replaces the car 17:53:14 wbooze: RePLACe cDr ;) 17:53:21 ah 17:53:28 summon: most of them (if not all) originate in lisp dialects predating common lisp 17:53:30 setq being set quote 17:53:33 why princ and not printc 17:53:40 wbooze: Remember, lisp is old. They liked to drop letters like in Unix  cp, uniq, etc. 17:53:48 why mapcar? 17:53:53 ok 17:53:59 summon: because 6 characters fit exactly in a 36-bit word back then. 17:54:25 I've just done coursera's scala course. funny that scala has brought back fexprs. 17:54:28 summon: you do not want us to explain every single lisp symbol's meaning, now do you? 17:54:37 summon: mapcar, is that not obvious now? 17:54:46 now it is ) 17:55:27 mal_: how bad is scale? i might have to learn it next semester 17:55:35 That would be good to find some historical explanation of every symbol ) 17:55:39 urandom__: better than java. 17:55:49 note that they recycled all the dropped letters later on for lengthy stuff like update-instance-for-redefined-class and similar :) 17:55:53 -!- izmirli [~zgr@78.164.152.144] has quit [] 17:55:57 it is not hard to be better than java 17:56:18 sellout42: it wasn't a matter of taste in the beginning, just that fitting 6 chars into a single word was useful 17:56:18 I liked scala. better than clojure. 17:56:54 oh, what pkhuong said :D 17:57:01 so it is a well designed lang, mal? 17:57:13 summon: start here: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/26_a.htm 17:57:17 that's obviously a matter of opinion 17:57:33 scala is a complex language 17:57:44 way more complicated than java and clojure 17:58:02 guaqua: in what way? 17:58:06 i've also heard that scala is an offtopic language 17:58:19 jdz: true enough and sorry :) 17:58:23 -!- pnpuff [~aeiou@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has left #lisp 17:58:42 sorry, jdz 17:59:04 well we have been talking about scala form an CL point of view ;P 17:59:13 hmmm to come back to lisp etymology. one I don't know myself. where did the N to denote destructiveness come from? 18:00:09 mal_: non-consing. 18:00:21 of course. thanks. 18:01:57 catmtking_ [~catmtking@dhcp-138-23-59-162.dyn.ucr.edu] has joined #lisp 18:02:46 -!- ignas [~ignas@office.pov.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:03:31 -!- catmtking [~catmtking@2002:a9eb:91ed:b:1413:5d08:9daa:66d0] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:03:31 -!- catmtking_ is now known as catmtking 18:04:00 ferada [~ferada@dslb-094-219-064-073.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 18:05:20 PCChris [~PCChris@dhcp-199-74-100-209.res-hall.northwestern.edu] has joined #lisp 18:08:25 H4ns: Nah.. I found this one on first google search. Unfortunately no historical reasons there. Of course thats not a big deal just to remember, but it's always a great when you guess that something is called this way and take such arguments, open the docs and find that you're right. 18:08:53 -!- m7w [~chatzilla@178.172.228.239] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:09:38 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ho1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 18:10:08 anyway, thanks a lot! 18:10:24 -!- stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-233-176.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:12:36 -!- PCChris [~PCChris@dhcp-199-74-100-209.res-hall.northwestern.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:12:48 pnpuff [~aeiou@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 18:13:55 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.99.97] has quit [Quit: (save-lisp-and-die)] 18:14:13 mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.99.97] has joined #lisp 18:16:51 I have seen (defun (setf *foo*) (val) ) in this, and I can guess what it does (overloads setf for that variable -- right?) 18:16:56 Can I do the same thing in a dynamic scope with flet? 18:17:56 rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has joined #lisp 18:18:12 luqui: no, you've not guessed correctly. 18:18:24 ohh.. 18:18:58 any pointers? 18:19:31 luqui: it's one of the more advanced areas of CL. Just don't worry about it for now. 18:19:48 luqui: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/05_abi.htm 18:19:58 luqui: although the wording is not particularly easy. 18:20:38 mal_: i'm inclined to say that setf functions are not really advanced, but failing to provide a good description of them, i'll not say that too loudly. 18:20:45 well i am trying to figure out a way to wrap this not-particularly-well-designed library, so understanding a feature that might help me could be important 18:20:59 -!- pnpuff [~aeiou@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has left #lisp 18:21:04 luqui: try to understand the page that i've pointed you at 18:21:53 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 18:22:33 luqui: where did you see the (defun (setf *foo*) ...)? 18:23:24 in the project i'm working on. in exact, the code is (defun (setf %cmn-key-signature) (ks) 18:23:25 (setf *%cmn-key-signature* ks)) 18:23:40 pnpuffY [~aeiou@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 18:23:46 oh, that's very different 18:24:00 luqui: maybe this helps: http://paste.lisp.org/display/133601 18:24:36 -!- pnpuffY [~aeiou@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has left #lisp 18:25:35 pnpuff [~aeiou@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 18:25:44 naming a function with earmuffs would surely confuse the crap out of me 18:25:49 yeah it seems like it is overloading assignment into that  "variable" 18:26:26 luqui: not really. it is a syntax to define functions for places. 18:27:02 luqui: place n. 1. a form which is suitable for use as a generalized reference. 2. the conceptual location referred to by such a place[1]. 18:27:03 luqui: perhaps avoiding unhelpful analogies (like "overloading") will help you understand 18:27:53 also, 'foo is a good name for a function, and '(setf foo) is also a name for a function 18:28:03 unfortunately i am human and therefore build my knowledge by connecting it to existing knowledge. but i understand that that is not an appropriate connection here now 18:28:31 well, there is no overloading going on, so pulling such analogies is not going to help 18:28:45 okay, well since that does not do what i think it does, is there any way to say "When such-and-such variable is written to, do the following"? 18:28:52 luqui: no. 18:28:56 darn 18:29:02 ripjsb 18:29:07 "overloading" in particular is too, er, overloaded a term to help anywhere :) 18:29:44 *luqui* is frustrated that some library designers spit their output into files in the cwd instead of returning it 18:30:27 ikki [~ikki@187.240.178.69] has joined #lisp 18:30:29 luqui: do they spit it into the cwd or do they maybe use *default-pathnames-defaults* implicitly? 18:30:46 err *default-pathname-defaults* 18:31:04 well wherever they put it, i don't want it in files 18:31:30 luqui: bind *default-pathname-defaults* to the name of the directory (a pathname) where you want to see the files be put 18:31:44 yeah, if only that weren't "nowhere" %-) 18:32:01 ? 18:32:01 anyway i can just read from them and delete them and etc. it's just hackish 18:32:06 i just want their contents in a stream 18:32:22 er, to write their contents to a stream 18:32:32 luqui: there's (make-broadcast-stream) 18:32:52 luqui: and which library is that, btw? 18:33:06 cmn 18:33:17 -!- pnpuff [~aeiou@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has left #lisp 18:33:27 -!- limetree [~ircuser@li147-249.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:33:29 he also provides a mechanism to write all the output to a stream instead of to files, which is what i'm trying too leverage right now 18:33:56 but the output is multiple eps files, and with that mechanism it writes them all to the same stream 18:33:59 pnpuff [~aeiou@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 18:34:11 i am currently looking for a way to separate them 18:34:12 4th paragraph on the website: "produces the file "aaa.eps" (the default value of *cmn-output-pathname*)" 18:34:31 yes that is the problem 18:35:01 erann [~erann@178.Red-79-154-75.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 18:35:17 can i define a custom stream with relative ease? 18:35:43 -!- pnpuff [~aeiou@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has left #lisp 18:35:52 there is a variable he sets when he switches to a new page, so if i can direct the output of the stream to multiple places depending on the value of that variable, i could get what i want 18:36:00 luqui: yes - look at the sbcl manual for examples: http://www.sbcl.org/manual/Gray-Streams-examples.html 18:36:18 -!- gilez [~gdmalet@tux.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:36:22 H4ns: thanks 18:36:26 luqui: you could also just change the function that does not behave like you want it to behave 18:36:37 it's pretty deeply nested in his code 18:36:42 luqui: like in "open source software that you can fix yourself" 18:36:58 luqui: i'm not sure if fixing it from the outside will be much easier. 18:37:16 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:37:34 we shall see, i suppose 18:37:50 pnpuff [~aeiou@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 18:39:49 fsvehla [~Fullmoon@h081217030118.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 18:40:25 -!- fsvehla [~Fullmoon@h081217030118.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Client Quit] 18:40:30 oh suddenly i think i get the (defun (setf  thing 18:40:54 well maybenot. whatever 18:41:46 gilez [~gdmalet@tux.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 18:41:59 Tixo 18:43:00 alvis`` [~user@tx-184-6-176-254.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 18:44:14 -!- alvis` [~user@tx-184-6-176-254.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:45:42 -!- ml__ [~ml@p3E9E5B24.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:49:33 -!- DrPete [~DrPete@unaffiliated/drpete] has left #lisp 18:49:37 -!- summon [~summon@94.180.97.59] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:51:13 shergill [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/shergill] has joined #lisp 18:52:31 -!- c_arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-ivzzjutyhoxstlcz] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:52:32 -!- shergill [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/shergill] has left #lisp 18:55:37 is there a nice construct for dynamic scoping; eg. setf foo x, do stuff, setf foo to what it used to be 18:56:05 luqui: special variables are dynamically bound. 18:56:39 for everything else, there's unwind-protect 18:56:50 luqui: you usually declare them using defvar or defparameter and create a new dynamic binding using let (or defun, or multiple-value-bind ...) 18:57:09 yeah i don't have the luxury of declaring this one 18:57:20 author suggests setting it, doing stuff, then setting it to nil after 18:57:43 unwind-protect probably... 18:57:49 luqui: it is already declared special if you can setf it 18:58:06 luqui: so you can create a new binding using let. 18:58:07 luqui: which library is this? 18:58:22 dlowe: cmn 18:59:06 luqui: found it. which variable are you trying to set up? 18:59:11 page-hook 18:59:22 -!- pnpuff [~aeiou@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has left #lisp 19:00:10 oubiwann [~oubiwann@c-98-207-167-39.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:01:06 it's a defvar 19:01:46 puchacz [~puchacz@46-65-36-47.zone16.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:01:54 yeah, you can just (let ((page-hook #'my-hook)) ... do stuff ... ) 19:02:10 :-) 19:02:28 hm. make sure you do cmn::page-hook 19:02:47 right 19:02:50 hawt it worked 19:03:00 i really appreciate y'all being so helpful 19:03:16 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.13.68] has joined #lisp 19:03:41 -!- srcerer [~chatzilla@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.89 [Firefox 15.0.1/20120905151427]] 19:03:51 *jasom* remembers the day he discovered let would dynamically bind specials 19:05:37 pnpuff [~aeiou@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 19:08:43 -!- blackwolf [~blackwolf@ool-4574e84c.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:10:01 Blkt [~user@62.10.10.99] has joined #lisp 19:11:53 slyrus [~chatzilla@173-228-44-92.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 19:13:49 francisl [~flavoie@199.84.164.114] has joined #lisp 19:14:10 idiomatic way to loop over a list keeping track of the index? 19:14:40 -!- Slivka [~Slivka@31.40.53.196] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:15:09 luqui: I think you need to explain more what you mean... 19:15:23 -!- francisl [~flavoie@199.84.164.114] has quit [Client Quit] 19:15:45 luqui: (loop for index from 0 for item in list do ...) 19:15:49 francisl [~flavoie@199.84.164.114] has joined #lisp 19:15:54 that does them in parallel? 19:16:12 yeah i guess it would have to be infinite otherwise %-) 19:16:13 luqui: you'll need to find out. 19:16:27 right tias 19:17:15 thanks 19:17:15 he might not need the "do" at the end though, depending on what he's trying to get done 19:17:47 is there a way to collect the results in a list like a map instead? 19:18:00 aka what is the purpose of the do keyword and what else might go there? 19:18:13 luqui: use collect instead of do 19:18:34 fun little dsls :-) 19:18:52 luqui: but really, why don't you read through a text that describes lisp in a structured fashion? 19:19:06 -!- oubiwann [~oubiwann@c-98-207-167-39.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:19:51 -!- yakov [~yakov@195.54.148.98] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:20:13 luqui: I personally recommend http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ with the hyperspec for reference 19:20:25 my learning style, i suppose. but if i'm bothering you i can use docs more 19:21:07 also i come from haskell, so i am already well-versed in fp and just need to come up with the appropriate haskell-to-lisp translation macro 19:21:11 luqui: you're reaching the point where your style is becoming a nuisance for the channel. 19:21:26 Thra11 [~thrall@146.90.205.148] has joined #lisp 19:21:41 okay i'll be quieter 19:21:46 http://www.franz.com/resources/educational_resources/cooper.book.pdf is a shorter into with some acl specifics 19:21:48 luqui: using this channel as a reference isn't efficient use of the resource; it's kind of doing your grocery rounds in a Ferrari 19:21:50 intro 19:22:25 no.. Ferrari is not a good car... :) 19:23:05 sorry for bothering 19:26:42 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 19:27:37 -!- p_l|work is now known as p_l 19:28:33 srcerer [~chatzilla@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has joined #lisp 19:29:11 m7w [~chatzilla@178.172.228.239] has joined #lisp 19:30:36 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@173-228-44-92.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:31:20 -!- stlifey [~stlifey@116.26.22.238] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.9] 19:33:28 oubiwann [~oubiwann@c-98-207-167-39.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:35:10 yakov [~yakov@c-2ec2d810-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has joined #lisp 19:36:36 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:38:18 CampinSam [~user@24-176-103-21.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has joined #lisp 19:47:48 slyrus [~chatzilla@173-228-44-92.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 19:49:38 luqui: 2 things if coming from haskell: 1) lisp is not as strongly opinionated about being pure FP, it supports other ways of doing things and 2) Idiomatic haskell makes strong use of lazy lists, while lisp has no built-in lazy list type 19:52:26 nugnuts [~nugnuts@pool-74-102-77-158.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:52:28 Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-71-191-38-169.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:56:26 luqui: http://reed.cs.depaul.edu/peterh/Tools/lisptutor.html 19:58:39 Alice3 [~Alice@cpc3-grim12-0-0-cust856.12-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 19:58:54 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:59:06 -!- oubiwann [~oubiwann@c-98-207-167-39.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:59:26 edgar-rft [~GOD@HSI-KBW-091-089-000-047.hsi2.kabelbw.de] has joined #lisp 19:59:48 -!- jxriddle [~jxriddle@ip-69-27-56-138.slm.blueriver.net] has left #lisp 20:04:34 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-2-150-64.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:05:36 -!- yakov [~yakov@c-2ec2d810-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:07:23 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-17-205-160.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:09:55 -!- p_l [~pl@tsugumi.brage.info] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:16:20 summon [~summon@94.180.97.59] has joined #lisp 20:28:34 -!- Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:29:27 -!- teggi [~teggi@113.173.26.151] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:29:30 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 20:33:20 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@217.17.38.43] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:34:43 lolprog [~let@94-225-44-126.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 20:34:48 -!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:35:41 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:38:52 sn0rri [~sn0rri@62.169.219.149] has joined #lisp 20:40:23 -!- erann [~erann@178.Red-79-154-75.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 20:40:28 erann [~erann@225.Red-81-32-228.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 20:42:17 cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has joined #lisp 20:42:23 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:42:24 kuzary [~who@gateway/tor-sasl/kuzary] has joined #lisp 20:43:09 -!- kuzary [~who@gateway/tor-sasl/kuzary] has left #lisp 20:44:52 p_l [~pl@tsugumi.brage.info] has joined #lisp 20:45:43 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@91-119-203-9.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:45:51 -!- toroidalcode|OFF is now known as toroidalcode 20:48:06 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-101-243.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:50:21 -!- nugnuts [~nugnuts@pool-74-102-77-158.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:52:21 hi, did I hit maximum floating point precision? (format t "~$~%" 3561396368.5) -> 3561396200.00 20:52:54 looks that way. 20:53:07 -!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 20:54:09 -!- sn0rri [~sn0rri@62.169.219.149] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 20:54:38 cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has joined #lisp 20:54:38 but... it is only 8 digits! 20:54:54 puchacz: more like 11 to me 20:55:02 puchacz: you could use double floats 20:55:42 eight digits is, lessee, 26 and a half bits, sooooo. 20:55:49 am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has joined #lisp 20:56:33 puchacz: http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.22.6768 20:56:47 sn0rri [~sn0rri@62.169.219.149] has joined #lisp 20:57:26 pjb [~t@vil93-14-88-184-74-97.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 20:57:51 -!- pjb is now known as Guest30399 20:58:40 -!- luqui [~luqui@c-50-134-131-109.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: luqui] 20:59:08 -!- summon [~summon@94.180.97.59] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:59:19 dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 20:59:39 -!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has quit [Excess Flood] 21:00:11 oubiwann [~oubiwann@c-98-207-167-39.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:03:21 -!- edgar-rft [~GOD@HSI-KBW-091-089-000-047.hsi2.kabelbw.de] has quit [Quit: immediate death] 21:03:29 -!- Guest30399 is now known as pjb` 21:03:45 -!- pjb` is now known as pjb 21:04:30 -!- catmtking [~catmtking@dhcp-138-23-59-162.dyn.ucr.edu] has quit [Quit: catmtking] 21:05:07 -!- sn0rri [~sn0rri@62.169.219.149] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 21:06:14 cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has joined #lisp 21:10:40 -!- am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:11:44 -!- toroidalcode is now known as toroidalcode|Awa 21:17:12 Thra11_ [~thrall@75.82.112.87.dyn.plus.net] has joined #lisp 21:17:40 puchacz: http://shoup.net/ntb/ 21:18:39 puchacz: (format t "~$~%" 3561396368.5d0) 21:18:39 yeah, a lot of reading material on this subject 21:18:59 jasom, does "d" mean it is exact decimal? 21:19:00 :-) 21:19:03 nope 21:19:05 double precision 21:19:06 -!- oubiwann [~oubiwann@c-98-207-167-39.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:19:13 ah, thanks :) 21:19:24 pnpuff: cool link 21:19:27 ratios are exact, if you like and they are what you get if you use only integers to most operations 21:19:29 -!- answer_42 [~answer_42@gateway/tor-sasl/answer42/x-66983568] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.9] 21:19:33 Bike: thx 21:19:44 ah, can I use decimal point notation and ratios? 21:19:50 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@173-228-44-92.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:19:52 -!- Thra11 [~thrall@146.90.205.148] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:19:58 eg. read 0.3 as 3/10 21:20:15 puchacz: no. 0.3 is a floating point literal 21:20:41 ok, nevermind. I switched to ratios already 21:20:48 few minutes back 21:20:50 thanks 21:20:50 -!- `fogus [~fogus@burke-matrex.d-a-s.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:21:06 puchacz: basically, read the links, floats aren't so good if you want exact results 21:21:29 -!- _d3f [~freedo@46.183.216.234] has quit [Quit: ~ The Gnu moved back to savannah ~] 21:22:24 Floats are only useful when the precision you need is directly related to the magnitude of the value. This is true for many scientific calculations, but false for a lot of other calculations 21:22:54 coordinates being the cannonical example of when you don't want floats, since you usually don't want the precision to vary with distance from the origin 21:23:30 luqui [~luqui@c-50-134-131-109.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:26:05 pirateking-_- [~piratekin@unaffiliated/pirateking---/x-2885143] has joined #lisp 21:26:34 -!- benny [~user@i577A1350.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 21:26:55 clariprincess1 [~princesit@200.84.67.68] has joined #lisp 21:27:19 -!- clariprincess [~princesit@200.84.67.68] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:27:29 -!- two- [~textual@c-67-171-131-23.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 21:27:43 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 21:28:11 -!- gffa [~unknown@unaffiliated/gffa] has quit [Quit: sleep] 21:28:18 benny [~user@i577A1350.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 21:28:38 jtza8 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22:07:17 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.13.68] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:07:37 elixey [~eilyx@gateway/tor-sasl/eilyx] has joined #lisp 22:08:39 i'm blocked. what is the canonical way to convert '((a 1) (b 2) (c 3)) to '((a b c) (1 2 3))? 22:09:24 (loop for (key value) in list collect key into keys collect value into values finally (return (list keys values)) ;? 22:09:41 (just typed it, haven't tried it) 22:10:17 antifuchs: hm. probably loop it is, right. 22:10:22 antifuchs: thanks! 22:10:30 and look at that, if you add a final closing paren, it actually works (: 22:10:32 yay (: 22:10:44 *antifuchs* not as rusty as initially suspected 22:10:56 H4ns: you're welcome (: 22:11:03 -!- elixey [~eilyx@gateway/tor-sasl/eilyx] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:13:18 H4ns: (defun transpose (x) (apply #'mapcar #'list x)) 22:14:12 uselpa [~uselpa@83.99.17.5] has joined #lisp 22:14:19 may not be canonical, but it's the cutest :) 22:15:15 -!- Joreji 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