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The one that 80%+ of people use, and the one that everyone else uses because they hate X about the popular one 00:50:06 common lisp has around 10 00:50:19 e.g. pyunit and py.test 00:50:38 it's the famous common lisp library problem - too many libraries 00:50:59 antonv: oh I know, that's why I was impressed with so few JSON libraries (at least that I could find) 00:51:36 I know, I'll write one unit testing library to replace all of those! 00:51:43 Now there are 11 unit testing libraries :) 00:51:58 o, I rechecked my facts (faree's article) - there are 18 unit testing libraries 00:53:02 Though how many of those are actually used (directly or indirectly by currently developed software) 00:53:28 I could probably find a dozen half-assed unit testing libraries for any sufficiently popular language, though most of them would be defunct 00:53:42 many are used 00:54:30 can't give you a number, but many 00:55:10 right. Also Lisp seems to have a much higher ratio of library-creator/library-consumer than most languages 00:55:15 jingtao [~jingtaozf@220.191.186.26] has joined #lisp 00:56:17 Otherwise you would expect many fewer libraries for any given feature in lisp vs python, since there are so many python developers out there. 00:57:16 *jasom* remembers looking for a monadic parser generator library and finding 2. How many languages have 2 monadic parser generator libraries? 00:57:22 -!- jingtao [~jingtaozf@220.191.186.26] has left #lisp 00:57:33 I'm also pretty sure I could find more than 2, I didn't look very hard. 00:58:18 -!- smazga [~acrid@li336-165.members.linode.com] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.2.1] 01:00:13 -!- luqui [luqui@clozure-78FAD086.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: luqui] 01:00:13 -!- luqui [~luqui@c-50-134-131-109.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: luqui] 01:03:48 Demosthenex [~Demosthen@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 01:03:51 -!- Demosthenex [~Demosthen@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit [Client Quit] 01:04:12 Demosthenex [~Demosthen@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 01:04:18 -!- rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:04:51 rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 01:06:42 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ho1.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:06:56 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-!- Bird|lappy [~Bird|ub3r@unaffiliated/htt-bird] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 06:17:14 -!- linse [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1178025755.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: zzzz] 06:19:23 holycow [~holycow@69.172.160.27] has joined #lisp 06:25:06 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.214] has joined #lisp 06:29:19 fsvehla [~Fullmoon@h081217030118.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 06:30:35 phax_ [~phax@4.71.46.62] has joined #lisp 06:31:01 tcr [~tcr@178-83-229-138.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 06:32:01 -!- Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:35:42 -!- tcr [~tcr@178-83-229-138.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:35:52 -!- Jubb [~ghost@pool-96-241-84-33.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:38:02 peterhil [~peterhil@91-157-48-10.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 06:39:09 benny [~user@i577A7188.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 06:39:30 asvil [~user@ns.osvtl.spb.ru] has joined #lisp 06:42:51 ehu [~ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 06:44:12 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 06:45:09 -!- phax_ [~phax@4.71.46.62] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 06:47:22 Inst [~SouthOfTh@unaffiliated/inst] has joined #lisp 06:47:25 hello 06:47:38 what's a good book for lisp for non-programmers? 06:49:21 Inst: probably http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/ 06:49:36 that's more than 15 years old 06:49:53 so? 06:50:13 there's no successors? 06:50:38 would i be better off to learn python first and learn lisp as someone with background in another language? 06:51:14 If you like shiny new things, F# is probably a better bet. 06:51:35 <|3b|> minion: tell Inst about pcl 06:51:36 Inst: direct your attention towards pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 06:51:43 thanks 06:51:58 pcl isn't quite for non programmers to be honest 06:52:04 but it helps 06:52:15 you will need to combine a bunch of books if you are a non programmer 06:52:21 both of the above are complimentary 06:52:30 <|3b|> yeah, missed that part, other link is a better starting point for non-programmers 06:52:37 as is land of lisp by conrad barski (you will have to purchase a copy for start press) 06:52:38 cmm [~cmm@109.65.213.187] has joined #lisp 06:52:57 *|3b|* notes that CL is quite a bit more than 15 years old, so 15 year old book isn't that bad 06:53:10 -!- AlbireoX`Laptop [~AlbireoX@76.78.168.118] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:54:12 -!- qptain_Nemo [~qN@81.200.28.83] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:54:25 thanks 06:54:40 answer_42 [~answer_42@gateway/tor-sasl/answer42/x-66983568] has joined #lisp 06:56:37 Bike_ [~Glossina@67-5-254-65.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 06:56:54 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.214] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:57:05 ah found my list 06:57:30 http://psg.com/~dlamkins/sl/ 06:57:35 -!- brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-142-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:57:56 -!- Bike [~Glossina@65-102-1-43.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:58:18 that is also a really good reference for newbies 06:59:39 http://www.cse.buffalo.edu/~shapiro/Commonlisp/index.html <-- this used to be available online, not sure what happened there but bookmark it anyway. maybe buy a used copy or something. 07:00:31 aha, its a .ps document, linked to at the bottom 07:00:43 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-93.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:00:56 i am having to combine a whole bunch of books to round out my learning 07:01:25 quicklisp also makes it easy to install systems and play around with cool projects like web frameworks and graphics programs 07:01:32 to keep things interesting 07:02:06 -!- tensorpudding [~tensorpud@99.102.70.211] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:03:55 -!- 15SAAHV97 [~hiro@p210079202073.cnh.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:04:06 -!- ehu [~ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:04:47 -!- mouflon [skajohan@Psilocybe.Update.UU.SE] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:06:26 sausages [~sausages@balmora.robotjunkyard.org] has joined #lisp 07:06:45 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@91-119-203-9.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:06:53 also, holy shit 07:06:58 you can make lisp run as fast as C? 07:07:43 yes 07:08:17 is there a standard way to tell most Lisp implementations to print structs the same very general way they print instances of classes? Like how printing a CLOS object of type FOO looks like # -- but with structs, the printer dumps the entire contents. 07:08:24 springz [~springz@123.151.195.1] has joined #lisp 07:08:49 if you printed a struct like that you couldn't read it back in. 07:08:53 -!- Bike_ is now known as Bike 07:08:59 sausages: that's because structs have a standard reader syntax 07:09:17 hiro3 [~hiro@p210079202073.cnh.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 07:09:27 -!- jewel [~jewel@105-236-210-224.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 07:09:28 right, but I only need to read it back in for a couple of instances (saving and loading, which is implemented). I don't want it dumped in stdout, though 07:12:58 agumonkey [~agu@183.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 07:14:04 -!- p_nathan [~anunknown@75.87.250.229] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:15:56 sausages: you can try redefining print-object method for structs in general, or define it for your specific structs 07:17:03 <|3b|> pprint dispatch table might be easier if you only want it sometimes 07:17:53 p_nathan [~anunknown@75.87.250.229] has joined #lisp 07:19:46 prxq [~mommer@mnhm-4d0102b8.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 07:20:38 mathrick [~mathrick@94.144.63.86] has joined #lisp 07:21:47 -!- fsvehla [~Fullmoon@h081217030118.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Quit: fsvehla] 07:22:56 fsvehla [~Fullmoon@h081217030118.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 07:24:35 thanks, I'll give those a try. I'll tinker with the table first, since (easy and convenient) serialization is important 07:25:12 -!- momo-reina [~user@aa20111001946f573ab2.userreverse.dion.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:27:42 Thra11_ [~thrall@146.90.205.148] has joined #lisp 07:29:24 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:31:31 tcr [~tcr@178-83-229-138.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 07:32:19 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 07:32:48 newbie|0 [~mz@ppp95-165-54-111.pppoe.spdop.ru] has joined #lisp 07:33:02 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-155-18.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:34:53 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.13.114] has joined #lisp 07:34:53 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.13.114] has quit [Changing host] 07:34:53 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 07:34:55 -!- Icon__ [~mz@94.29.96.243] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:36:06 -!- tcr 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[~punee@213-245-106-105.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 08:30:40 ioa [~ioa@dynamic2-251-034.usc.edu] has joined #lisp 08:31:45 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 08:32:01 tcr1 [~tcr@178-83-229-138.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 08:34:35 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-141-104-121.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 08:36:36 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@178-83-229-138.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:36:58 -!- tcr [~tcr@84-72-21-32.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 08:38:11 kennyd [~kennyd@93-139-97-63.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 08:41:06 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-93.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:41:51 -!- answer_42 [~answer_42@gateway/tor-sasl/answer42/x-66983568] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:41:53 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-93.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 08:42:16 Inst: i vote for gentle, if you have no programming language experience. you already have the link 08:42:18 kiuma [~kiuma@static-217-133-17-91.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 08:42:40 thanks 08:44:22 Bacteria [~Bacteria@115-64-180-132.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 08:45:32 -!- deleuz is now known as derrida 08:45:32 -!- derrida [~derrida-f@www.informalcode.com] has quit [Changing host] 08:45:32 derrida [~derrida-f@unaffiliated/deleuze] has joined #lisp 08:45:54 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 08:46:35 -!- tali713 [~user@c-76-17-236-129.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:47:30 -!- hiro3 [~hiro@p210079202073.cnh.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:47:48 tali713 [~user@c-76-17-236-129.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:48:21 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-173-30.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 08:50:49 -!- Bike [~Glossina@67-5-254-65.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 08:51:19 foreignFunction [~niksaak@94.27.88.0] has joined #lisp 08:54:54 -!- quazimodo 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14:27:02 -!- tensorpudding [~tensorpud@99.102.70.211] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:28:14 `fogus [~fogus@burke-matrex.d-a-s.com] has joined #lisp 14:28:35 tensorpudding [~tensorpud@99.148.195.100] has joined #lisp 14:29:03 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Quit: ] 14:30:41 Harag [~Thunderbi@dsl-243-192-242.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 14:31:00 pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has joined #lisp 14:31:38 ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.128] has joined #lisp 14:38:59 kanru`` [~kanru@1-160-75-57.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 14:39:55 bitonic [~user@dyn1209-62.wlan.ic.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 14:42:02 H4ns: neat dpof/tumblr stuff. 14:43:03 Xach: not yet, but soon :) 14:43:36 Xach: does your camera have a printing function, too? 14:43:37 -!- Krystof [~user@81.174.155.115] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:44:29 It's nikon, so it doesn't seem likely, but perhaps there is some equivalent. 14:44:56 But I've also been looking to have a tumblr client so I can write in emacs for lisptips and push it out automatically on git push or similar 14:45:24 Xach: ok - it should be similar enough to twitter and that i have just implemented for quickhoney 14:45:41 I need something for twitter too. 14:45:43 foreignFunction [~niksaak@94.27.88.12] has joined #lisp 14:45:59 the existing cl-twitter thing made my eyes glaze over. maybe i should give it another try. 14:46:00 Xach: https://github.com/hanshuebner/quickhoney has it 14:46:04 Xach: may this help? (I haven't used it) https://github.com/qxj/tumblr-mode 14:46:42 erann: Thanks for the link. I'll check it out. 14:46:50 hi 14:48:18 -!- ArmyOfBruce [~textual@waywardmonkeys.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 14:48:34 -!- ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.128] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:48:36 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.139.18.71] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:49:06 ArmyOfBruce [~textual@69.164.192.175] has joined #lisp 14:49:58 ikki [~ikki@189.139.18.71] has joined #lisp 14:50:48 jewel [~jewel@105-236-210-224.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 14:52:41 if you guys hang on a couple of days i can release some twitter/facebook/linkedin code snippets that could become a lib 14:53:20 just busy getting all the interactions (post,comment,like,share etc) working properly 14:53:44 I'm not sure I can hang on, but I'll try. 14:55:21 -!- bitonic [~user@dyn1209-62.wlan.ic.ac.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:56:50 minion: chant 14:56:50 MORE THAN 15:00:32 agumonkey [~agu@183.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 15:02:35 peterhil` [~peterhil@gatekeeper.brainalliance.com] has joined #lisp 15:04:23 Krystof [~user@81.174.155.115] has joined #lisp 15:05:39 -!- loke [~elias@bb115-66-85-121.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:10:33 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:17:40 -!- tensorpudding [~tensorpud@99.148.195.100] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:17:55 tensorpudding [~tensorpud@99.148.195.100] has joined #lisp 15:20:10 brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-142-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:20:57 Harag lol ignore Xach and release your stuff.. His occasional toxic passive-aggressiveness is good trade for quicklisp :-) 15:21:35 linse [~marioooh@x-132-204-243-254.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 15:21:52 ??? 15:22:05 Xach: nothing. 15:25:47 sambio [~sambio@190.57.227.109] has joined #lisp 15:28:21 -!- Vicfred [~Grothendi@189.143.116.208] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:30:31 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-24-21-251-38.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:32:55 -!- CrazyEddy [~cardiolit@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 15:33:14 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-93.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:34:17 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-93.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:41:17 *Xach* wonders if he can make it to this month's boston lisp meeting 15:41:58 (November 20 at Google in Cambridge) 15:44:55 it'd be neat if you could 15:46:13 bitonic [~user@dyn1209-224.wlan.ic.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 15:46:45 -!- fsvehla [~Fullmoon@chello084112185050.3.11.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Quit: fsvehla] 15:47:00 cic_ [~connolly@Catnip.AI.SRI.COM] has joined #lisp 15:47:11 CrazyEddy [~unfeminiz@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 15:47:56 -!- agumonkey [~agu@183.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 15:48:26 smazga [~acrid@li336-165.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 15:49:14 -!- Daisy [~Daisy@109.58.183.247.bredband.tre.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:50:22 Daisy [~Daisy@95.209.0.123.bredband.tre.se] has joined #lisp 15:50:36 have any lisp people tried working on being able to unload code from a lisp image? 15:51:07 Quadrescence: I haven't checked, but that sounds very vaguely like something Drew McDermott might have worked on with his chunks idea 15:51:44 http://cs-www.cs.yale.edu/homes/dvm/papers/lisp05.pdf 15:52:42 Xach, thanks for the reference 15:52:43 ok, the abstract makes it sound like not what you had in mind 15:53:21 probably not but it's a starting point 15:53:37 Quadrescence: so, unload how? 15:54:53 pkhuong, I guess an example maybe would be to load a package into the image, do some stuff with it, then unload ("remove") the package as well as everything that came along for the ride from the image, as if the package was never loaded 15:55:19 "package" 15:55:39 yes ````package'''' 15:55:41 Quadrescence: would that include undoing any changes done in cl-user, for example variable assignment and so on? 15:55:47 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 15:56:10 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-93.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:56:15 flip214, maybe, i guess that's where it gets cloudy. I don't think I mean "reversing all of the stateful effects" 15:56:28 Quadrescence: so something like asdf could keep track of dependencies... A decent GC and cleverer compiler than SBCL's would then let good things happen implicitly? 15:56:33 If there's _nothing_ to retain, you could simply save an image before ... and use that a few times. 15:56:47 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-93.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:56:56 (note, i'm just thinking about things, i don't actually have a problem to solve) 15:58:01 pkhuong, that would probably work. Why do you say "cleverer compiler"? 15:59:17 -!- Cymew [~user@fw01d.snowmen.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:59:32 -!- sellout42 [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:59:39 Harag: do you post it as a new project on github? then i'll see it come by soon 15:59:45 Xach, it looks like i accidentally, independently developed this idea of "chunks" 16:00:41 Quadrescence: I don't think it's widely known, which is possibly a shame 16:01:32 catmtking [~catmtking@dhcp-138-23-59-162.dyn.ucr.edu] has joined #lisp 16:02:15 Quadrescence: Python has n implementations of hash tables for various metadata/caching purposes, none of which are weak on key. 16:03:55 d'oh 16:04:04 oh, you mean Python the cmucl 16:04:29 Python the {CMU,SB}CL. 16:04:49 i'm surprised it wasn't renamed to sbython 16:05:07 -!- Kvakz [~kvaks@75.161.189.109.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:09:54 madnificent: might just blog about it first with the pieces needed, don't know if I have the time to clean it up enough to release it on github. I can't settle on a clean way to package the functionality especially the oauth1 vs oauth2 stuff ... the little exceptions between the diff social channels when it comes to oauth is making for messy code... 16:10:10 Kvaks [~kvaks@75.161.189.109.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 16:11:14 jimmy1980 [~jimmy@27.213.79.128] has joined #lisp 16:11:18 if think about code unload, it makes sense to study how it's done in java 16:11:33 -!- `fogus is now known as `fogus|lunch 16:11:50 in java class names are unique in scope of class loader 16:12:31 For example com.mycompany.MyClass. If my program refers it, it is resolved by class loader 16:12:46 there is a default class loader, but programmer may install his own class loader 16:12:55 -!- spacefrogg is now known as spacefrogg^ 16:13:24 then you can throw away a class loader, and if no other part of program refers to the classes, their code is garbage collected 16:13:50 this feature also allow to load different versions of the same library into java machine 16:14:43 it is used when system allows plugins developed by 3rd parties - every plugin is loaded in context of it's own class loader, so that plugins may use whatever version of libraries they want 16:15:01 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 16:15:09 also in web servers - every web application is in it's own class loader, so they may use different versions of libraries 16:15:11 too mad Common Lisp is not Java... 16:15:17 and bad, too 16:16:05 sellout42 [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:16:56 class loaders are chained into a hierarchy, so if plugin's class loader don't have needed class, default class loader may be used - sharing of code between plugins is allso possible 16:17:23 so, it makes sense to study this solution when thinking about coder reload for lisp 16:19:16 lisp packages can refer to each other 16:19:31 and code is not loaded automatically 16:19:49 or it can be, but not in a standardized way that would link the loaded code to a certain loader 16:20:24 what do you mean? "load" is pretty standard. 16:20:28 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 16:20:45 i guess loading is quite overloaded term in this sense 16:21:34 don't really know how to formalize this properly so i will stop here 16:25:04 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-93.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 16:25:28 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-93.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:25:31 -!- stlifey [~stlifey@59.35.102.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:26:38 the problem is that a lisp file can side-effect pretty much anything in the running image 16:27:38 not that it's a good thing to do, and not that they always do 16:28:15 but interning keywords, subclassing existing classes, adding methods 16:29:10 (interning arbitrary symbols in arbitrary packages left out intentionally) 16:30:11 there must be a ton more stuff under the hood 16:31:01 side effect may remain if we speak only about code unload 16:31:15 and the code is GCed only if it's not referenced 16:31:33 antonv: then it's easy -- just delete the package 16:31:42 adding methods to generic functions makes it referenced of course 16:33:35 jdz: yes, something like that. Althought most lisp implementation today probably do not thread code as garbage collectable objects 16:33:53 antonv: what makes you say that? 16:34:07 jdz: I am just guessing 16:34:27 antonv: well, fmakunbound, and poof, function is gone 16:34:38 jdz: indeed 16:34:41 antonv: similarly, if the symbol is gone, the function goels with it 16:34:46 goes eve 16:34:47 even 16:35:37 jdz: well, than we have some code unload possiblilities 16:35:49 -!- kanru`` [~kanru@1-160-75-57.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 16:35:54 antonv: yes, the boring part 16:36:08 why whould we need it, is another question 16:36:23 what's good in code unloading? 16:36:35 -!- gko [~user@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:36:40 having a lisp machine 16:37:19 jdz: how's that? 16:37:34 antonv: having one lisp image to rule them all 16:37:51 the only one you ever start, and stay with for the rest of your life 16:38:46 yrk [~user@75-150-104-107-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 16:38:50 -!- yrk [~user@75-150-104-107-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Changing host] 16:38:50 yrk [~user@pdpc/supporter/student/yrk] has joined #lisp 16:41:16 IIRC, the latest JVM implementation supports class unloading (although it has to be activated with a parameter at startup). 16:41:38 this is good of course 16:41:57 [lisp machine started only once] 16:42:31 jdz: that sounds ... really non-reproducable 16:42:51 It probably has to do with the new dynamic languages (JRuby et all) generating many classes while running. This is a wild guess though. I wonder if it helps ABCL though. 16:44:05 did lisp machines have code unloading? 16:46:00 yes, it was called Garbage Collection 16:46:29 agumonkey [~agu@183.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 16:46:43 i must admit i have not used a lisp machine 16:49:25 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-93.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:50:04 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-93.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:52:23 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-17-204-92.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:54:31 -!- jimmy1980 [~jimmy@27.213.79.128] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 16:55:00 Icon__ [~mz@ppp79-139-183-80.pppoe.spdop.ru] has joined #lisp 16:56:33 -!- erann [~erann@213.Red-79-154-72.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: erann] 16:57:35 jimmy1980 [~jimmy@27.213.79.128] has joined #lisp 16:58:36 morphling [~stefan@gssn-4d002a03.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 17:01:17 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-93.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:01:54 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-84-44-178-157.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 17:02:28 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-93.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:05:02 stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-019-125.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 17:10:39 -!- cdidd [~cdidd@128-72-21-113.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:11:57 -!- pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:12:32 booguie [~booguie@wsip-98-172-168-236.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 17:12:59 pnpuff [~aeiou@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 17:16:48 -!- sausages [~sausages@balmora.robotjunkyard.org] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:17:24 My impression is that turning off the power did code unloading 17:18:01 restart-inferior-lisp 17:18:04 Xach: could call it "bruteforce tree shaking" 17:18:16 oubiwann [~oubiwann@c-98-207-167-39.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:18:35 antifuchs: that would be going physically to the box and giving it a solid kick on the side 17:18:37 Xach: via the well-known stop-and-copy GC algorithm ;) 17:18:48 AlbireoX [~AlbireoX@76.78.168.109] has joined #lisp 17:19:03 jdz: that works, too! 17:25:02 frito [user@nat/ibm/x-czihkuguraeeetjw] has joined #lisp 17:26:07 jtza8_ [~jtza8@105-236-101-243.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:26:22 -!- fiveop [~fiveop@p4FCDF0E5.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:27:40 *maxm* always thought a "heap size limit, pool of restratable unix processes" that just malloc stuff while not worrying that much about freeing, is kind of elegant... If you have RPC/transaciton mechanism that restarts seamlessly on process death, its a robust app model 17:28:02 -!- pnpuff [~aeiou@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has left #lisp 17:28:21 until you drop messages because your reader dies while allocating a new message buffer (: 17:28:33 sometimes simplest solution are the best. "40 man hours to find obscure very slow memory leak" vs 1 line cron job restarting everything once a week, 17:28:41 fiveop [~fiveop@p4FCDF72D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:29:20 antifuches: the system I'm familar with (tuxedo) will simply route request to new process, with caller none the wiser 17:29:32 unsatisfying. only works for as long as you don't see acceleration in rate of mem consumption 17:29:39 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-93.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:29:56 them old school at&t unix guys coded nice stuff :-) 17:30:04 fsvehla [~Fullmoon@h081217030118.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 17:30:12 -!- fsvehla [~Fullmoon@h081217030118.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:30:57 fsvehla [~Fullmoon@h081217030118.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 17:30:59 keithmantell [user@nat/ibm/x-uquiukistmxzphez] has joined #lisp 17:32:46 dnolen [~user@cpe-74-64-61-245.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:33:06 -!- keithmantell [user@nat/ibm/x-uquiukistmxzphez] has quit [Client Quit] 17:33:35 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 17:33:39 maxm: "crash only software"? 17:33:48 -!- frito [user@nat/ibm/x-czihkuguraeeetjw] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:34:02 hi, antifuchs! long time no see! 17:34:35 if you have seamlessly restratable RPC with transactions, other then aesthetic reasons whats wrong with it? 17:34:40 yeah flip214 (: 17:34:54 -!- yrk [~user@pdpc/supporter/student/yrk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:34:55 -!- ignas [~ignas@office.pov.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:34:58 as long as crashes are not every 10 minutes, but more of every 10-15 hours 17:35:06 maxm: oh sure, it's cool (and I love software that can crash). but you still have to be careful that it /can/ crash 17:35:42 also, you have to test that it can crash and while that's true for all other software, you've picked out the most annoying and hard to reproduce bugs as your most common ones 17:35:52 just for the record model I'm talking about is process level parallelism, where you usually start 5-10 processes providing same service 17:36:11 Bike [~Glossina@67-5-254-65.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 17:36:12 or go full cluster with dynamic routing / loading etc 17:36:21 maxm: an alternative is to prefork to come up nearly instantaneously on crash 17:38:06 Or in the old-school C/Unix case just have really lightweight runtimes so that there is little startup time 17:38:11 -!- dnolen [~user@cpe-74-64-61-245.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 17:42:08 pnpuff [~aeiou@host72-0-dynamic.250-95-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 17:42:45 -!- pnpuff [~aeiou@host72-0-dynamic.250-95-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Client Quit] 17:44:39 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:45:39 -!- asvil [~user@ns.osvtl.spb.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:46:18 pnpuff [~aeiou@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 17:47:14 ferada [~ferada@dslb-094-219-064-073.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 17:47:43 -!- nforgerit [~nforgerit@HSI-KBW-149-172-198-162.hsi13.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Quit: nforgerit] 17:48:01 Is there a way to get the pretty printer to start a new line before any new list? So that each line ends with one or more ")"? Ie. only one single-level list is in a single line. 17:48:26 Bird|lappy [~Bird|ub3r@ip68-107-237-136.om.om.cox.net] has joined #lisp 17:48:26 -!- Bird|lappy [~Bird|ub3r@ip68-107-237-136.om.om.cox.net] has quit [Changing host] 17:48:26 Bird|lappy [~Bird|ub3r@unaffiliated/htt-bird] has joined #lisp 17:48:58 urandom__ [~user@ip-88-152-214-34.unitymediagroup.de] has joined #lisp 17:49:37 another question: is there a function (eg. in alexandria or so) that returns the maximum tree depth? 17:52:35 -!- guther [guther@gateway/shell/bshellz.net/x-hrllictzxzohgvyj] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:52:40 the list thing sounds like something you can do complicatedly with pprint-newline and so on 17:53:38 well, I thought that it might be a common type of printing, and so there's some standard (easy, short) way to do that 17:54:10 -!- Kvaks [~kvaks@75.161.189.109.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 17:54:54 Kvaks [~kvaks@75.161.189.109.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 17:55:01 -!- Kvaks [~kvaks@75.161.189.109.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Client Quit] 17:57:39 Kvaks [~kvaks@75.161.189.109.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 17:57:48 cl-ppcre has nothing similar to perl's "study", right? 17:58:54 -!- Daisy [~Daisy@95.209.0.123.bredband.tre.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:59:53 flip214: create-scanner does the same, I think 18:00:21 oh, never mind. 18:03:24 phax_ [~phax@c-67-161-5-247.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:06:06 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-99-24-162-13.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:06:44 -!- phax_ [~phax@c-67-161-5-247.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 18:09:15 yrk [~user@c-50-133-134-220.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:09:18 -!- yrk [~user@c-50-133-134-220.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 18:09:18 yrk [~user@pdpc/supporter/student/yrk] has joined #lisp 18:15:37 segv_ [~mb@dslb-188-102-175-019.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 18:17:14 ucefkh [~YoussefKH@dynamic.rabatp1-19-56-137-41.wanamaroc.com] has joined #lisp 18:17:20 Thra11 [~thrall@146.90.205.148] has joined #lisp 18:18:21 conventions question: what do you call internal factors of a defun foo? 18:18:38 Does sbcl+slime support something akin to breakpoints? 18:18:48 and then allow stepping? 18:19:01 (break), (step) 18:19:02 (i.e. some defun foo uses, but isn't going to be needed outside of foo?) 18:20:23 Bird|lappy: define it in a labels/flet ? 18:20:55 Bike: oh, thanks 18:21:13 Daisy [~Daisy@95.209.81.243.bredband.tre.se] has joined #lisp 18:21:20 segv_, *off to look those up in CLHS* 18:21:50 Bird|lappy: they're like let/let* for local (only visibile in the scope of the flet/labels) functions 18:21:54 stlifey [~stlifey@59.35.102.197] has joined #lisp 18:22:13 they'll save you having to give names to things (or at least package-wide unique names), but they'll make the function itself longer 18:22:22 trade-offs, trade-offs, trade-offs... 18:22:40 yeah. I think that labels might be the best bet here, since it appears that flet doesn't work for recursive foos 18:23:29 speaking of conventions, what's the "conventional" way to build (as in asdf or make or whatever) a c lib that a lisp app uses? 18:23:49 leo2007 [~leo@182.48.109.8] has joined #lisp 18:23:57 segv_, which OS, I guess? 18:24:05 kmels [~kmels@p579D1231.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:24:14 i.e. "when in Rome, do as the Romans do" 18:24:15 Bird|lappy: linux/mac/windows 18:24:28 segv_: commonqt does something like that from within its system definition file 18:24:29 i know how to do it, by hand, i don't know how to teach asdf to do it 18:24:47 segv_: there might be simpler examples to study, but i'm not sure what they might be 18:25:05 ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.134] has joined #lisp 18:25:14 the romans bathed alot 18:25:16 hmmmmm 18:25:27 that means i have to go take shower now! 18:25:29 lol 18:27:04 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.13.68] has joined #lisp 18:27:49 -!- pnpuff [~aeiou@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has left #lisp 18:27:59 erann [~erann@39.Red-79-154-72.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 18:28:00 actually, come to think of it, I might be able to solve my problem without a labels 18:28:13 pnpuff [~aeiou@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 18:30:27 ehu [ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 18:30:54 -!- sambio [~sambio@190.57.227.109] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:31:37 -!- AlbireoX [~AlbireoX@76.78.168.109] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:32:38 AlbireoX [~AlbireoX@76.78.168.109] has joined #lisp 18:35:34 Eldariof40-ru [~CLDX@pppoe-200-122-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has joined #lisp 18:36:36 xristos_ [~x@research.suspicious.org] has joined #lisp 18:36:42 -!- xristos [~x@research.suspicious.org] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:42:11 -!- linse [~marioooh@x-132-204-243-254.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has quit [Quit: zzzz] 18:43:44 -!- Eldariof40-ru [~CLDX@pppoe-200-122-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:46:44 -!- teggi [~teggi@123.20.53.114] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:50:00 -!- tcr [~tcr@178-83-229-138.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:50:13 segv_: both commonqt and iolib do this 18:50:53 _d3f [~freedo@46.183.216.234] has joined #lisp 18:55:05 I think iolib may be more advanced coz commonqt its just one .cpp file producing one .so file 18:55:51 so...speaking of trade-offs: if you are writing a foo using a recursive algorithm, and the recursion requires extra parameters to be passed around, is it conventional to use an internal "helper" with labels or make the extra parameters &optional with appropriate defaults?) 18:56:16 Bird|lappy: internal labels is better than exposing internal parameters at the api 18:56:29 ok 18:57:47 -!- c_arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-oczgguqtqfykydzm] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:57:48 m7w [~chatzilla@178.172.228.235] has joined #lisp 19:00:18 dnolen 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19:47:07 segv_: how's life ? still in berlin ? 19:47:28 -!- bitonic [~user@host81-149-254-17.in-addr.btopenworld.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:47:35 -!- pnpuff [~aeiou@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has left #lisp 19:49:15 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 19:49:36 -!- jtza8_ [~jtza8@105-236-101-243.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:50:52 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-101-243.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:51:14 life's good, and i'm not leaving berlin any time soon :) 19:51:17 great city. 19:51:42 pnpuff [~aeiou@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 19:51:43 kuroryuu [~user@2602:ae:1a2e:200:ae81:12ff:fe3e:1e8b] has joined #lisp 19:52:54 -!- catmtking [~catmtking@dhcp-138-23-59-162.dyn.ucr.edu] has left #lisp 19:53:12 whitedawg [~Suraj@122.179.41.35] has joined #lisp 19:54:36 catmtking [~catmtking@dhcp-138-23-59-162.dyn.ucr.edu] has joined #lisp 19:56:46 gigamonkey_ [~gigamonke@adsl-99-2-148-107.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has 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tcr [~tcr@84-72-21-32.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 21:11:55 -!- phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:14:23 antonv [5d7d31f9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.49.249] has joined #lisp 21:15:32 Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has joined #lisp 21:18:14 redscare [~Adium@18.189.124.194] has joined #lisp 21:18:27 is there a way to get at the bits of a floating point number? 21:18:37 logand and others don't seem to work with it 21:18:56 there's an ieee-floats library to get at the ieee binary representation. 21:19:08 mjonsson [~mjonsson@38.109.95.133] has joined #lisp 21:20:26 Bike: i'd actually just like the bits themselves. it's for speed i'm trying to implement a very fast ziggurat algorithm and would like to use the lower 8 bits of a randomly generated float to get a random number <= 255 21:20:43 -!- pnpuff [~aeiou@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has left #lisp 21:20:58 that's faster than just randomly generating an integer? 21:21:21 shouldn't it be? i randomly generate the float, then for free i have a random integer at the end 21:21:21 redscare: you cannot get at the bits of a float in any portable fashion. 21:22:54 redscare: Why would it be any faster to generate random bits for a float than for an integer? 21:22:59 H4ns: there's cl:integer-decode-float 21:23:07 see http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/f_dec_fl.htm 21:23:36 sambio [~sambio@190.57.227.109] has joined #lisp 21:23:52 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@91-119-203-9.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:24:01 fe[nl]ix: that is not the "bits of a float" in the sense that redscare has asked for, or is it? 21:24:40 sellout42: so the algorithm requires that i generate a floating point number in (0,1) and an integer in (0,255) 21:24:59 -!- Praise [~Fat@unaffiliated/praise] has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.] 21:25:01 redscare: And it's ok that they're correlated? 21:25:17 Praise [~Fat@unaffiliated/praise] has joined #lisp 21:25:21 tcr1 [~tcr@178-83-229-138.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 21:25:27 redscare: I implemented a high-period PRNG in lisp that is quite fast at generating random-bits; also IIRC you can get bits out of SBCLs builtin PRNG if you don't mind using internal functions 21:26:44 -!- fiveop [~fiveop@p4FCDF72D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: humhum] 21:26:56 Aha: random-chunk gets you bits on sbcl 21:27:33 sellout42: yep, random enough 21:28:31 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@178-83-229-138.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:28:32 gigamonkey_ [~gigamonke@adsl-99-184-206-13.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:29:08 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-2-148-107.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:29:09 -!- gigamonkey_ is now known as gigamonkey 21:29:53 redscare: Isn't it more typical to use random words and a LUT to get the float? 21:30:13 -!- Harag [~Thunderbi@dsl-243-192-242.telkomadsl.co.za] has left #lisp 21:32:46 jasom: maybe, not sure how that would work though. LUT means lookup table? 21:33:09 redscare: yeah, make a lookup table of Xi/2**32 21:33:22 then just multiply that by a random 32-bit word 21:34:23 jasom: will lisp let me treat a 32-bit integer as a word? 21:34:55 redscare: if you declare it as a (unsigned-byte 32) then SBCL should generate efficient arithmetic 21:35:41 I don't think there is an optimized path for (random #.(expt 2 32)) though; let me check 21:35:43 jasom: and just generate an integer < 255? 21:36:15 redscare: yeah 21:36:55 redscare: you should try to implement your algorithm without considering bits and word lengths first 21:37:19 vanjulio [c6970804@gateway/web/freenode/ip.198.151.8.4] has joined #lisp 21:37:23 H4ns: it's a famous algorithm, and pretty straightforward to implement. it just need to be FAST :) 21:37:26 redscare: once you have it running, you can use type declarations to instruct the compiler better. 21:37:43 redscare: you cannot write fast lisp code now, because you do not know enough about lisp to do it. 21:37:46 -!- `fogus|lunch [~fogus@burke-matrex.d-a-s.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:37:53 Actually I tried compiling (random #.(expt 2 32)) and it looks decent 21:38:31 random apparently has a deftransform for (SB-INT:CONSTANT-ARG (INTEGER 1 4294967296)), so 21:38:52 redscare: implement it in straightforward lisp as an exercise. that will also make it easier for people to help you optimize it. 21:39:33 nforgerit [~nforgerit@HSI-KBW-149-172-198-162.hsi13.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 21:39:52 izmircikli [~zgr@78.164.186.150] has joined #lisp 21:40:32 jasom: what does the "#." notation mean? i assume it is like #b but for what? 21:40:51 m| 21:41:49 redscare: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/02_dh.htm 21:42:30 -!- izmirli [~zgr@78.164.186.150] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:43:16 redscare: I agree with H4ns though, get it working just using naive (random ) calls 21:43:19 then optimize 21:43:51 "i want to skip `rookie` and go right to `pro`" 21:44:46 and you'll be surprised how much the compiler does for you; it generates very good code for (random any-constant-that-is-a-power-of-two-minus-one) 21:45:33 (which is a recent improvement, I did something similar with 1.44ish SBCL and recall it being not nearly as good) 21:45:45 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-84-44-178-157.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:47:28 am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has joined #lisp 21:48:58 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:48:59 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 21:49:49 fisxoj [~fisxoj@c-24-12-190-29.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:52:59 gkeith_glaptop_ [~gkeith@c-98-216-97-19.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:56:47 Bacteria [~Bacteria@115-64-180-132.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 21:57:48 Alice3 [~Alice@cpc3-grim12-0-0-cust856.12-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 21:59:17 One optimization that is on my wish-list for sbcl is to reorder operations to decrease data dependencies in the pipeline. My PRNG implementation XORs 3 different PRNGs together to get the final result, and each individual one makes very tightly coupled code (e.g. each instruction relies on the results of the previous). If I manually interleave the steps of each one, I can get a ~10% speedup, but that makes the code completely unreadable 22:00:43 I'm sure the mythical "sufficiently smart compiler" could do this automatically; it's a balancing act b/c register spills can cost you as much as you save by doing it... 22:02:12 -!- gkeith_glaptop_ [~gkeith@c-98-216-97-19.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:02:54 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.13.68] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:04:32 -!- segv_ [~mb@dslb-188-102-175-019.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: segv_] 22:07:23 stat_vi_ [~stat@dslb-094-218-019-125.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 22:07:38 -!- zmyrgel [~zmyrgel@a91-153-150-75.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:07:42 jrockway [jrockway@itchy.jrock.us] has joined #lisp 22:08:12 -!- p9f [~stian@arachnotron.sletner.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:08:12 -!- drewc [~user@212.110.167.245] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:08:12 -!- jrockway_ [jrockway@itchy.jrock.us] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:08:12 -!- stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-019-125.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:08:33 drewc [~user@212.110.167.245] has joined #lisp 22:09:06 -!- Krystof [~user@81.174.155.115] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:10:13 -!- thethomaseffect [~thethomas@109.255.215.132] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:11:58 -!- stat_vi_ [~stat@dslb-094-218-019-125.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Client Quit] 22:14:34 -!- _d3f [~freedo@46.183.216.234] has quit [Quit: ~ The Gnu moved back to savannah ~] 22:14:40 gkeith_glaptop_ [gkeith@nat/google/x-oewmfxmqownjzohm] has joined #lisp 22:14:59 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@c-24-12-190-29.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 22:16:02 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 22:16:06 zmyrgel [~zmyrgel@a91-153-150-75.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 22:16:26 -!- m7w [~chatzilla@178.172.228.235] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:18:24 Krystof [~user@81.174.155.115] has joined #lisp 22:21:43 -!- Alice3 [~Alice@cpc3-grim12-0-0-cust856.12-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [] 22:23:19 Alice3 [~Alice@cpc3-grim12-0-0-cust856.12-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 22:23:43 jasom: that sort of optimisation is extremely hard to model correctly. With OOO x86 (i.e. everything but atoms), it's hard to improve a very simplistic schedule that simply allows the reordering window to do its job, and a bad schedule (e.g. one tuned for another chip) can have negative effects on perf. The best would probably be something like qhasm to define VOPs, everything driven by empiric evaluations on a small set of inputs. 22:23:47 -!- ehu [ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:24:39 -!- cdidd [~cdidd@37-144-190-34.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:25:48 tcr1 [~tcr@178-83-229-138.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 22:27:12 -!- vanjulio [c6970804@gateway/web/freenode/ip.198.151.8.4] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 22:28:18 antgreen [~user@dsl-173-206-90-138.tor.primus.ca] has joined #lisp 22:30:05 pkhuong: i sense a good use of optimize compilation-speed :) 22:30:13 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@178-83-229-138.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:31:55 -!- rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:32:11 -!- agumonkey [~agu@183.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:32:32 -!- phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:32:53 -!- jimmy1980 [~jimmy@27.213.79.128] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:34:45 -!- Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:34:59 -!- gkeith_glaptop_ [gkeith@nat/google/x-oewmfxmqownjzohm] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:38:42 cdidd [~cdidd@95-28-139-109.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 22:40:51 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 22:41:01 -!- Alice3 [~Alice@cpc3-grim12-0-0-cust856.12-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [] 22:41:50 lagagoose [LiTHiuM@ool-182e02bb.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 22:41:52 -!- lagagoose [LiTHiuM@ool-182e02bb.dyn.optonline.net] has left #lisp 22:42:44 -!- alessio [~alessio@93-34-165-96.ip50.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:44:47 -!- Bacteria [~Bacteria@115-64-180-132.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:47:27 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.99.97] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:50:43 -!- Posterdati [~antani@host45-237-dynamic.6-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.1.3 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 22:50:44 -!- punee [~punee@213-245-106-105.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Quit: punee] 22:51:00 -!- Codynyx [~cody@c-75-72-25-106.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:52:08 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 22:52:27 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-4d0102b8.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:54:17 Codynyx [~cody@c-75-72-25-106.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:55:16 Posterdati [~antani@host45-237-dynamic.6-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 22:59:03 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 23:00:00 -!- eli [~eli@racket/eli] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 23:00:07 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:00:41 -!- gffa [~unknown@unaffiliated/gffa] has quit [Quit: sleep] 23:00:43 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:00:50 eli [~eli@racket/eli] has joined #lisp 23:01:14 -!- cdidd [~cdidd@95-28-139-109.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:04:11 -!- urandom__ [~user@ip-88-152-214-34.unitymediagroup.de] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 23:07:32 fantazo [~fantazo@91-119-203-9.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 23:08:25 -!- redscare [~Adium@18.189.124.194] has left #lisp 23:08:34 -!- tcr [~tcr@84-72-21-32.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:10:35 bjorkintosh [~bjork@ip68-13-229-200.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 23:10:50 -!- kuroryuu [~user@2602:ae:1a2e:200:ae81:12ff:fe3e:1e8b] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:14:14 Bacteria [~Bacteria@dyn-130-194-155-39.its.monash.edu.au] has joined #lisp 23:15:49 cdidd [~cdidd@176.14.110.26] has joined #lisp 23:16:11 -!- rdqfdx [~rdqfdx@78.90.88.244] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:16:19 -!- edgar-rft [~GOD@HSI-KBW-091-089-000-047.hsi2.kabelbw.de] has quit [Quit: mental blackout] 23:19:06 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.139.18.71] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 23:24:39 L0L0L0L0L [~bob@user-142g2ok.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 23:26:18 tcr [~tcr@178-83-229-138.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 23:29:48 alvis` [~user@tx-184-6-176-254.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 23:30:21 -!- tcr [~tcr@178-83-229-138.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:30:41 -!- alvis [~user@tx-184-6-176-254.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:31:47 -!- user123abc [~sally@c-67-171-79-251.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:35:18 -!- [SLB] is now known as [SLB]` 23:37:00 pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has joined #lisp 23:37:10 ikki [~ikki@187.240.178.69] has joined #lisp 23:41:31 ouack [~nineteen9@24.39.127.3] has joined #lisp 23:41:41 -!- kmels [~kmels@p579D1231.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 23:42:09 Me Mac Lion. What's the best thing to use for SICP? 23:42:14 kmels [~kmels@p579D1231.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 23:42:25 try #scheme 23:44:01 You know, I don't understand it. SICP says it's teaching you LISP, but the website says it's the Scheme interpretation? 23:44:24 -!- Slivka [~Slivka@31.40.53.196] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:45:12 ouack: Lisp is a family of languages, Common Lisp is one, Scheme is another. 23:45:21 -!- L0L0L0L0L [~bob@user-142g2ok.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 23:45:33 ouack: #lisp is about Common Lisp, #scheme is about Scheme. 23:46:37 anyway, the version that was developed alongside SICP is MIT Scheme 23:46:52 L0L0L0L0L [~bob@user-142g2ok.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 23:47:26 snearch [~snearch@f053001018.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 23:47:43 -!- cryptic [~cryptic@pool-96-246-91-191.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 23:47:51 -!- add^_ [~add^_@m37-3-114-81.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: add^_] 23:47:59 cryptic [~cryptic@pool-96-246-91-191.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:53:31 -!- ferada [~ferada@dslb-094-219-064-073.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:54:06 p_l: Is it still compatible with the book, though? 23:55:14 pkhuong: yeah I know it's not really doable. I wonder if I could do something at the source level with a macro. Bindings would be hard... 23:58:19 -!- brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-142-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 23:59:02 -!- erann [~erann@39.Red-79-154-72.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 23:59:07 erann [~erann@117.Red-79-146-126.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp