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00:00:07 *jasom* wonders if it works
00:00:30 *maxm-* does not know personally but google says http://cygwin.com/packages/gamin/ un
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02:29:53 <postfuturist> maxm: looks good, where I work we are using something similar to reload configuration files on the fly (in Python).
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05:38:36 <bc1> is there a list of all destructive functions somewhere?
05:38:38 <bc1> I know sort is
05:40:39 <phadthai> hmm that could be a handy reference list... I don't know of a single place with the full list personally
05:40:53 <p_nathan> Most of the n* functions are destructive.
05:43:04 <bc1> I'm not using any of those haha :(
05:44:04 <joekarma> here's a list of fbound symbols in the common-lisp package... I suppose we could manually go through the list and label the ones that are destructive https://gist.github.com/4022828
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05:53:09 <sellout42> bc1: Not quite the same thing, but I wrote this a while ago to avoid using destructive functions too much: https://github.com/sellout/non-consing-variants
05:56:50 <pkhuong> bc1: delete-*, n* and sort cover most of it.
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05:57:46 <joekarma> I've updated the gist with what I have so far https://gist.github.com/4022828
05:58:34 <bc1> I'm trying to just make a copy and use the copy later when I need it
05:58:47 <bc1> but it doesn't seem to be working
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05:59:02 <bc1> let me get some code/output
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06:02:26 <bc1> ok the spacing is awful here I know
06:02:37 <bc1> http://paste.lisp.org/display/133568
06:03:33 <bc1> wait
06:03:34 <bc1> that's wrong
06:03:35 <bc1> hold on
06:03:37 <bc1> wrong output
06:03:41 <sellout42> bc1: COPY-LIST is not a deep copy.
06:04:05 <bc1> oh?
06:04:13 <bc1> is there a deep copy?
06:04:21 <sellout42> Nope.
06:04:27 <bc1> urrrrrgh
06:04:51 <pkhuong> there's copy-tree.
06:05:35 <sellout42> bc1: BTW, REMOVE generally indicates non-destructive, whereas DELETE is destructive.
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06:06:08 <bc1> I'm never using delete in my code
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06:06:23 <sellout42> bc1: And are you really sure you're getting enough benefit out of your destructive functions to make the cost of copying worthwhile?
06:06:47 <bc1> I don't even know what's being destroyed, or what's doing it
06:07:52 <bc1> even switching copy-list to copy-tree, it's still doing the same thing
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06:10:08 <sellout42> bc1: Well, we don't see much of the code.
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06:11:41 <bc1> yeah, this isn't much better, but
06:11:42 <bc1> http://paste.lisp.org/display/133569
06:11:49 <bc1> the output below there is correct
06:11:56 <phadthai> also remember that some functions return a new sequence or list that should be used to reference it afterwards, when the old one shouldn't be used anymore
06:12:21 <bc1> two identical outputs, one immediately before the next-level assignment, one immediately after
06:12:29 <bc1> if I switch to copy-tree, it does the same thing I think
06:12:30 <bc1> let me double check
06:12:53 <sellout42> bc1: But the code in REMOVE-* is what we need to see, I think.
06:13:24 <bc1> actually, copy-tree did work
06:13:29 <bc1> hmmmm
06:13:36 <sellout42> Ah, good. That makes sense.
06:13:38 <bc1> the overall program is still giving me the wrong answer though, haha
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06:13:48 <bc1> so I need to track that down now...
06:13:52 <sellout42> I forget about COPY-TREE. Generally try to avoid copying.
06:14:40 <Quadrescence> sellout42, why avoid copying? :C
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06:15:15 <sellout42> Quadrescence: Because it's generally easier to understand non-destructive code.
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06:15:28 <sellout42> As bc1 is learning ;)
06:15:48 <Quadrescence> sellout42, wait, I don't understand. Avoid copying + don't destruct?
06:15:58 <Quadrescence> why not copy + avoid destruct
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06:16:26 <sellout42> Quadrescence: Because if you don't destuct, you don't need to copy.
06:17:14 <Quadrescence> sellout42, sorry, it's late, i was conflating copying and consing
06:17:38 <sellout42> *phew* :)
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06:49:59 <bc1> http://paste.lisp.org/display/133570
06:50:07 <bc1> there is a list of functions I use in my code
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06:50:22 <bc1> I know sort is destructible, and in the two places I use it I have backups
06:50:28 <bc1> but what about the rest?
06:51:55 <Bike> don't think any of those are destructive.  you're probably doing something else wrong.
06:53:41 <bc1> ok, stupid logic errors :(
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07:20:32 <bc1> ok
07:20:35 <bc1> I found it I think
07:20:56 <bc1> I tracked down the specific function that was giving spurious output and added some more backups
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07:27:00 <bc1> I think, though
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07:27:15 <bc1> why are there destructible functions in lisp anyway
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07:27:20 <bc1> I mean, what's the rationale behind them?
07:27:46 <bc1> performance benefit?
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07:28:21 <bc1> memory benefit from doing things in place?
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07:29:13 <hitecnologys> Greetings!
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07:33:21 <hitecnologys> Is this possible to set value in to some key in hashtable using variable in MULTIPLE-VALUE-BIND, like this: (multiple-vlaue-bind (hash exists-p) (gethash *key* *hash-table*) (setf hash *value*))?
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07:33:36 <Bike> nope.
07:34:26 <hitecnologys> =(
07:34:28 <Bike> bc1: performance, I think.  this of course ties back into "linked lists aren't a very good representation for most things anyway" business, though.
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07:34:41 <hitecnologys> Okay, thanks a lot.
07:34:47 <Bike> hitecnologys: if you do setf like that you'll just be altering the local variable binding.
07:35:29 <hitecnologys> Bike: I know this, but I've thought that there's some trick to do this.
07:35:53 <Bike> "this" = what, specifically?
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07:36:18 <hitecnologys> this = set key value.
07:36:37 <hitecnologys> Sorry for mistakes, English is not my native language.
07:36:41 <Bike> (setf (gethash ...) ...)
07:37:13 <hitecnologys> Bike: Yeah, I know about this, but typing get hash twice looks a bit ugly.
07:37:32 <Bike> i suppose you could do something with symbol macros, but I don't think it would be worth it.
07:38:42 <hitecnologys> Sure, but otherwise there will be lots of duplicated code.
07:39:46 <hitecnologys> I'm thinking about inline functions, but I'm not sure is this right solution.
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07:40:57 <flip214> hitecnologys: perhaps using SHIFTF would optimize the second hash calculation away.
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07:43:34 <hitecnologys> flip214: SHIFTF? Why?
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07:44:46 <hitecnologys> I can't imagine how can I use SHIFTF with hashtables. =|
07:46:04 <flip214> (SHIFTF old-value (gethash key hash) new-value)
07:46:23 <flip214> or just (ROTATEF old-then-new (gethash key hash))
07:46:55 <hitecnologys> Oh, wow.
07:47:02 <hitecnologys> Thanks for advice.
07:47:21 <moore33> That's why I said a couple of days ago that setf is the best macro ever.
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08:25:44 <dim> hitecnologys: have a look at symbol-macrolet
08:27:00 <dim> (symbol-macrolet ((value (gethash key hash))) <code using value here>)
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08:31:08 <flip214> dim: that was already discussed. see Bike's msg 54 mins ago.
08:31:55 <dim> oh, my backlog is not big enough, sorry about that
08:32:49 <flip214> well, never mind.
08:33:19 <dim> there's a limit in the use case of irc proxies after all
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08:36:31 <flip214> dim: http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/
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08:36:59 <dim> I won't include that in my morning' routine I'm afraid, but thanks for the information
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08:40:02 <flip214> I didn't mean that everyone has to read and know all of this channels history ... JFI if you want to look something up
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08:40:52 <dim> appreciated, thx
08:41:12 <madnificent> is there a type for any funcallable object which takes at least two arguments of a particular type?
08:43:53 <dim> that looks like an ocaml or haskell question to me
08:44:51 <madnificent> dim: wouldn't be much use in a struct to write it in haskell syntax, now would it? ;)
08:45:55 <dim> I know nothing of the capabilities of reader macros, what I've seen looked crazy enough that you most probably could get away with it :)
08:46:19 <dim> but well, it's not a syntax problem
08:46:30 <flip214> madnificent: (declare (function ((arg1 class1) (args class2)) return-type)) perhaps?
08:46:45 <flip214> there's a way to declare function types.
08:47:09 <madnificent> flip214: does that work for (lambda (&rest args) ...)
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08:47:58 <flip214> madnificent: I just found (declare (ftype (function (fixnum fixnum) fixnum) NAME))
08:48:18 <madnificent> flip214: yes, but that doesn't handle the &rest, i believe
08:48:21 <flip214> well, if you want to declare that you assume a variable has such a function, it might
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08:52:13 <madnificent> when i set the type to that, i set it to just that.  the closest i can get, afaict, is using function.  because (function (fixnum fixnum &rest fixnum) fixnum) is not a subtype of (function (fixnum fixnum) fixnum).  the inverse doesn't hold either.
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08:59:03 <flip214> madnificent: how about (function (fixnum &rest fixnum) fixnum) ?
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09:01:20 <madnificent> flip214: (function (fixnum fixnum) fixnum) isn't a subtype of that either.  so i won't be allowed to supply it
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09:02:11 <flip214> madnificent: how do you deftype?
09:03:48 <madnificent> in this case in the :type option of a defstruct
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09:05:00 <flip214> madnificent: perhaps you can specify a generic function, and do the selection by a first (symbol) argument.... but that's not nice
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09:06:39 <madnificent> flip214: i don't see how i can declare the type in a way that works the way i want it, aside from listing all clauses.  perhaps someone will come round here and tell me differently :)
09:07:39 <flip214> madnificent: (function (fixnum fixnum) fixnum) allows me to use #'+ .... am I doing something wrong?
09:08:08 <flip214> madnificent: you could do :type (or null (function (fixnum fixnum) fixnum) (function (fixnum fixnum &rest fixnum)))) etc.
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09:10:19 <madnificent> flip214: yes, i just said that, and i don't find it pretty.  there's the chance that i'll miss some option if i write it that way each time (which isn't that much right now, but still, it doesn't convey what i intend to say).  i'm ok with not being able to specify it.  i just hope someone will come around with better knowledge of the type system that knows a way to express this intention.
09:11:26 <flip214> I still don't understand why (fixnum fixnum) allows #'+, which has clearly a different signature ...
09:11:51 <madnificent> i don't know what you mean by your #'+ statement
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09:25:44 <Krystof> flip214: function declarations are restrictions on use, not on the derived type signature of the function object
09:26:15 <ams> flip214: what do you want to do?
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09:36:16 <naryl> Can I define extra documentation types in sbcl?
09:36:31 <naryl> CLHS says "A conforming implementation or a conforming program may extend the set of symbols that are acceptable as the doc-type."
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09:41:09 <ams> naryl: You answered the question yourself, have a cookie. :-)
09:41:22 <galdor> naryl: I have no idea, but you could ask on #sbcl
09:41:55 <ams> Nothing to do with SBCL; it is a normal Lisp question.
09:43:58 <ams> naryl: (setf (documentation 'foo 'your-new-docy-type) "I RULEZ THE WORLDZ")
09:44:09 <naryl> WARNING:
09:44:15 <ams> naryl: Yes.
09:44:16 <galdor> I don't know if it's possible using standard lisp functions, it may need sbcl-specific functions; since I don't know and he/her gets no answer, I told him/her about #sbcl
09:44:17 <naryl>    discarding unsupported DOCUMENTATION of type YOUR-NEW-DOCY-TYPE for object SYMBOL
09:45:12 <ams> naryl: Right, as docstrings are implementation defined.
09:45:20 <ams> An implementation is permitted to discard documentation strings at any time for implementation-defined reasons.
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09:46:20 <ams> galdor: Yes it is.
09:47:38 <madnificent> ams: reading what naryl pasted, i don't think you're right at all.  it would, as galdor said, depend on what the implementation accepts.  so no, you can't just do it in common lisp.  you can't rely on the fact that you can add doctypes.
09:47:47 <galdor> well I learnt something new, thank you
09:48:43 <madnificent> ams: perhaps the definition of may is a cause of confusion here?
09:48:47 <ams> madnificent: You can add new doc-types, but an implementation is free to discard them, as well as any standard ones.
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09:49:19 <ams> i.e. (setf (documentation 'car 'function) "foo") can be discarded, even though function is a standard doc-type by a conforming implementation.
09:49:46 <ams> madnificent: "An implementation is permitted to discard documentation strings at any time for implementation-defined reasons. "
09:49:48 <madnificent> ams: so, if the implementation discards them, you haven't actually added anything.
09:50:12 <ams> madnificent: Right, but you can set them in a standard manner, and add new doc-types in an standard manner.
09:50:18 <madnificent> ams: so, as galdor said, whether or not you can actually *add* them, depends on the implementation
09:50:33 <ams> madnificent: you can add them, but when you use them nothing might happen, it might be a nop.
09:51:01 <ams> to wit,
09:51:03 <galdor> ams: it's a problem if you expect the docstring to be there, for example to use with a tool which generates api documentation
09:51:06 <ams> Conforming programs are permitted to use documentation strings when they are present, but should not depend for their correct behavior on the presence of those documentation strings.
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09:51:13 <galdor> docstrings aren't just to be pretty in the source code
09:51:15 <ams> galdor: Then don't, they are not to be expected.
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09:51:24 <ams> galdor: Actually, they are exactly that :-)
09:51:55 <galdor> the very fact that DOCUMENTATION exists mean you can process them
09:52:09 <madnificent> ams: no, they can be retrieved and processed.  so they are *not* there to be pretty in the source code
09:52:23 <ams> galdor: you have an standard API for accessing/modifying them, those accesses/modifuers might be nops; docstrings are onyul for debugging.
09:52:40 <ams> madnificent: Well, fine, disagree with the ANSI standard.
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09:52:42 <galdor> ams: we will have to agree to disagree then
09:52:52 <ams> galdor: Fine, the standard agrees with me.
09:53:01 <madnificent> ams: quote me where it says that it's to make the source pretty!
09:53:26 <ams> madnificent: Documentation strings are made available for debugging purposes. Conforming programs are permitted to use documentation strings when they are present, but should not depend for their correct behavior on the presence of those documentation strings. An implementation is permitted to discard documentation strings at any time for implementation-defined reasons.
09:53:36 <madnificent> ams: that doesn't say that *at all*
09:53:44 <ams> madnificent: Then you should go back to school.
09:53:47 <ams> 10:53 /ignore madnificent
09:53:50 <ams> back to hacking.
09:54:25 <madnificent> ams: you shouldn't add something in front.  it doesn't work that way.  it's similar to most of your comments ;)
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10:10:42 <moore33> madnificent: Are you saying that ams is not quoting the hyperspec accurately?
10:11:26 <ams> moore33: hahaha
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10:12:29 <moore33> Dunno why I said anything; gotta go hit the road.
10:12:35 <ams> have fun
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11:37:06 <ams> does anyone have a half current list of bugs in ansi cl?
11:38:17 -!- hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@94.137.0.73] has quit [Quit: hitecnologys]
11:38:32 <Cymew> in ansi cl? What implementation?
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11:43:23 <ams> in the spec
11:43:47 <jdz> i have one in my home folder
11:43:56 <ams> things that are unclear, outright bugs in definitions, ...
11:44:15 <ams> jdz: care to share?
11:44:21 <jdz> ams: no
11:44:32 <ams> jdz: ok
11:44:42 <jdz> what's the point of keeping it in the home folder in the first place?
11:45:01 <ams> jdz: how should i know? i have over 500k of files in mine.
11:45:10 <Thra11> You can't really have a bug in a spec. Most definitions of a bug would be if the implementation did not follow the spec.
11:45:29 <ams> Thra11: uhm, yeah you can have bugs in a spec.
11:46:32 <jdz> everybody knows the spec is not perfect, and have learned to live with it
11:47:01 <ams> Thra11: e.g. if you had: not x => boolean :: Returns nil if x is false; otherwise, returns t.
11:47:06 <ams> Thra11: than that would clearly be a bug.
11:47:31 <Thra11> ams, you can have a poorly written specification, or you can specify something that is unhelpful, likely to cause problems, etc. However, that's not really a bug according to most definitions of 'bug'.
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11:47:53 <Cymew> Yeah
11:47:57 <ams> Thra11: "wording that is clearly incorrect" --> bug
11:48:12 <ams> Thra11: that doesn't fall under "poorly written", or "unhelpful"
11:48:34 <Cymew> I'd call that errata
11:48:43 <ams> Thra11: Indeed, there was one bug in the second draft of the spec, wrt to atan i think, where operators where wrong.
11:48:56 <Cymew> But to answer your question, I have never heard of such, no.
11:49:16 <Thra11> You can write a spec that defines false equal to true. It may be perverse, unhelpful, bizarre, etc. A bug it is not.
11:49:30 <ams> Thra11: it is a bug if it wasn't _intended_
11:49:41 <ams> Thra11: so yes, en errata would be a list of bugs in a standard.
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11:50:10 <ams> anywhoo... mincing words are we.
11:50:37 <Thra11> I'd still wouldn't use the word bug. Bug usually has a specific meaning. What you describe are mistakes, etc.
11:50:42 <ams> http://paulgraham.com/ancomliser.html
11:50:44 <ams> mm..
11:50:49 <ams> Thra11: a bug is also a mistake.
11:51:08 <Thra11> ams, that does not mean a mistake is bug
11:51:11 <Thra11> simple logic
11:51:16 <ams> Thra11: yes it does.
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11:51:48 <ams> sorry, that seems to be the book anscl .. not the spec... lame.. why did pg pick that name blech
11:51:54 <Thra11> no. All ravens are black does not imply all black things are ravens. All bugs are mistakes does not imply all mistakes are bugs.
11:52:20 <ams> Thra11: Oh please, go away.
11:52:37 <ams> cliki! i love you cliki!
11:52:44 <ams> http://www.cliki.net/Proposed%20ANSI%20Revisions%20and%20Clarifications
11:53:34 <Thra11> ^ a list of issues :p
11:53:44 <ams> Thra11: or in other words: bugs.
11:54:15 <Thra11> nope. different words, different meanings, different usage.
11:54:30 <Cymew> whatever. Let it go Thra11
11:54:51 <Thra11> Cymew, Ok, I've finished feeding the trolls now, sorry.
11:55:02 <Cymew> Please abstain
11:55:35 <ams> Thra11: You are talking about yourself; you haven't added anything to the discussion other than mincing words for no purpose, and now you are calling people names.  Welcome to my ignore list.
11:55:47 <Cymew> Good find with that list, ams
11:55:57 <Cymew> I didn't knew such existed
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11:56:28 <ams> Cymew: hehe
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12:32:46 <papyrus> hello. i have a question.
12:33:03 <papyrus> i want to lisp identation ...like
12:33:08 <papyrus> (defun test-fun
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12:33:44 <papyrus>         (+ 1 2))
12:33:54 <jdz> papyrus: use a paste site (like paste.lisp.org) to paste code
12:34:07 <papyrus> ok..
12:34:23 <flip214> papyrus: in your editor? which one? emacs, vim, notepad, ...?
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12:35:03 <papyrus> emacs + slime
12:35:05 <papyrus> http://codepad.org/4BFZPbkz
12:35:40 <jdz> papyrus: you want the indentation you pasted?
12:35:46 <papyrus> yes.
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12:36:04 <jdz> papyrus: a) you're missing arglist, and b) why?
12:36:17 <papyrus> my mistake :-)
12:37:02 <papyrus> hmm..
12:37:27 <madnificent> papyrus: not sure if you still have an issue, but embrace the indentation emacs gives you.  you'll learn to see the structure more easily and you'll find errors without looking at the parens :)
12:37:53 <ams> papyrus: the indentation emacs uses is the indentation (more or less) all lisp programmers use no matter the dialect of lisp.
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12:39:22 <papyrus> hmm.. i like consistency with identation..
12:39:35 <madnificent> papyrus: it is consistent!
12:39:49 <ams> papyrus: the indentation is actually _very_ consistent
12:39:54 <madnificent> papyrus: when the indentation goes 'back' to the left, it means you have a code block.  meaning, multiple forms :)
12:40:00 <madnificent> papyrus: does that make sense?
12:40:26 <ams> papyrus: what do you find hard to understand in indentation? maybe if you can paste an example we can try to explain it for you
12:40:46 <papyrus> wait a minute :-)
12:42:04 <papyrus> http://codepad.org/0eOYU39U
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12:43:02 <madnificent> papyrus: have you seen the google common lisp style guide?
12:43:26 <papyrus> hmm..
12:43:28 <ams> papyrus: that is how _you_ want it, i was asking what you find hard to follow about normal lisp indentation
12:43:30 <papyrus> maybe...
12:44:04 <madnificent> ams: be nice for once
12:44:27 <madnificent> papyrus: normally, the find-if would be indented 4 spaces back to the left, correct?
12:44:58 <papyrus> i think i could be wrong , because i am new to lisp :-). but i want to code in lisp like that.~
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12:45:23 <ams> papyrus: why? it is hard to read
12:45:33 <papyrus> hmm..
12:45:34 <ams> papyrus: you will have problems reading virtuall all other code
12:45:53 <madnificent> papyrus: it'd be a bad idea to do it that way.  however, you could try in #emacs, they'll likely help you to make the indentation 'dumb'
12:45:53 <madnificent>  
12:46:08 <papyrus> madnificent., no 4 spaces(may be right) it 's lined up with my-assoc.
12:46:18 <ams> papyrus: normally, for such a short function, i would write it on a single line
12:47:04 <ams> papyrus: http://www.update.uu.se/~ams/z.txt
12:47:09 <ams> papyrus: would be all quite common
12:47:12 <madnificent> papyrus: i was asking how emacs does it, not how it's written in the pastie.  the pastie is 'wrong'
12:47:53 <ams> madnificent: "be nice, telling a user he is "wrong" is not nice" -- i suggest you learn the definition of "nice".
12:48:03 <madnificent> ams: i suggest you /ignore me correctly
12:48:13 <ams> madnificent: my /ignore removes people after an hour or so.
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12:48:54 <madnificent> papyrus: you know what, this will only turn into a fight.  i'm going to let ams help you.  i doubt it can go very wrong.
12:49:08 <ams> madnificent: have a cookie.
12:49:30 <papyrus> :-)...
12:49:42 <jdz> madnificent: how exactly were you going to help? by directing him to #emacs and make him write incorrectly indented code?
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12:50:17 <ams> papyrus: do you find any of the examples i posted easier to read?
12:50:26 <papyrus> yes.
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12:50:54 <ams> papyrus: and seriously, if you are new to lisp, live with the indentation for a bit, we have used it for well since 1960's at least because it is simple to understand :-)
12:50:57 <papyrus> i think you(ams) are right . but i want to try that..
12:51:27 <ams> papyrus: well, sorry, but that is not how we do it, you will have a really hard time understand other programmers code, and reading examples or tutorials...
12:51:53 <papyrus> it's just...experiment for me..or test .
12:52:11 <ams> papyrus: aren't you more interested in learning lisp than toying around with non-essential things? :-)
12:52:28 <papyrus> right..:-)..
12:53:15 <papyrus> ams, thanks a lot :-)
12:54:19 <jdz> and they lived happily ever after...
12:55:16 <ams> haha
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13:06:40 <flip214> I just tried to right-align a bit of code, with indentation .... hmmm, good to annoy people ;P
13:07:37 <ams> right align?
13:07:51 <loke> flip214: show me
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13:13:00 <flip214> ams: loke: http://paste.lisp.org/display/133572
13:13:24 <flip214> centered is a bit nicer, though
13:13:29 <ams> flip214: die die die die die die die die
13:14:02 <flip214> ams: you're welcome.
13:14:05 <ams> flip214: thank you
13:14:48 <loke> flip214: gorgeous
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13:14:55 <loke> now, make an emacs mode :-)
13:15:20 <flip214> loke: I'm a vim user.
13:15:26 <ams> http://paste.lisp.org/display/133572#1
13:15:28 <ams> =)
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13:18:58 <jdz> this is how you do it right: http://www.foldr.org/~michaelw/lisp/bottle-song.lisp
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13:20:02 <jdz> or, without the credits: http://www.foldr.org/~michaelw/log/static/programming/lisp/format-automotivator.jpg
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13:31:26 <dim> is clisp still good to have in days of sbcl?
13:32:12 <ams> dim: yeah, debugger is much nicer, and it is a bit more paranoid regarding cl standard issues.
13:32:13 <p_l> yes
13:32:25 <ams> dim: (and you can bootstrap sbcl from it)
13:32:47 <dim> is the clisp debugger available directly from slime?
13:33:00 <dim> I've found that ccl debug traces in slime are better than sbcl ones
13:33:46 <p_l> afaik clisp got some issues with slime, but I haven't used it enough to say... or care
13:36:45 <ams> never had issues ..
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13:37:59 <dim> well I'm considering it now because you can do clisp foo.lisp directly, no hassle, it might be a stupid reason to use it though (think system scripting)
13:38:27 <sellout> dim: SBCL supports #!
13:39:06 <dim> cool
13:39:25 <jdz> sbcl --script foo.lisp is so much harder, though
13:39:34 <dim> someday (when I need it) I will have to look at all those things, including producing binaries for multiple platforms
13:39:36 <Krystof> what makes you say that clisp is more paranoid regarding cl standard issues?
13:39:58 <Xach> CLISP has a stricter loop. I can't think of any other area in which it is more paranoid.
13:40:13 <Xach> And stuff like its special, non-standard handling of REQUIRE are really annoying.
13:40:17 <Krystof> (given that clisp's default startup mode explicitly turns off a bunch of switches regarding ANSI compatibility, it's a surprising observation)
13:40:32 <Krystof> the LOOP thing I know (and would like to build the analogue, in copious spare time)
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13:44:11 <Xach> Krystof: A while ago I tried to replace SBCL loop with sacla loop to see how many loop bugs it found in the quicklisp world build, but I couldn't quite make it work.
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13:50:26 <p_l> actually, SBCL supports `chmod +x foo.fasl; ./foo.fasl` :>
13:50:32 <p_l> beat that
13:51:12 <dim> is the fasl format covered by the standard?
13:51:16 <Krystof> no
13:51:18 <p_l> dim: nope
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13:51:39 <dim> still it seems that many implementations have a fasl format?
13:51:40 <Krystof> there are some extremely minimal requirements on compile-file
13:51:50 <p_l> dim: 'fasl' is a traditional name
13:51:59 <dim> what does it stands for?
13:52:03 <Krystof> essentially only that macros be expanded
13:52:08 <Krystof> "fast load"
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13:52:28 <Xach> not to be taken literally
13:52:34 <dim> so it's a kind of "bytecode"?
13:52:50 <dim> like, you wouldn't need to call to the reader when loading a fasl file?
13:53:45 <p_l> dim: whatever 'internal' representation that can be fast loaded
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13:53:59 <dim> ok
13:57:22 <Xach> dim: in sbcl and others, it still contains the machine code of the compiled functions, so it's not a byte code in that sense.
13:57:43 <Xach> dim: but the fasl loading mechanism may be controlled by a system that is not Lisp source code.
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13:58:33 <ams> Krystof: -ing ... but whatever :-)
13:59:01 <Cymew> note: sbcl for example will not promise to keep the fasl format from release to release, as far as I know
13:59:04 <Xach> or it might be lisp code, too. clisp "fasl" files are full of sexps.
13:59:14 <dim> fasl is more like binary than like lisp then, like... bytecode, in some cases, I guess
13:59:35 <Xach> dim: it really depends on the implementation.
13:59:43 <dim> got it
13:59:50 <ams> dim: a fasl could be anything, native x86 code with a build in vm, lisp sexps, jvm ...
14:00:46 <dim> I still can't help reading that as implementation defined bytecode
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14:00:56 <Xach> try harder
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14:00:59 <dim> but I will focus and call it fasl now, ok
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14:17:04 <Xach> Kvakz: please don't do that.
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14:21:55 <ams> .. do what?
14:23:26 <Xach> Change nicknames six times in a second.
14:23:30 <ams> ah
14:23:40 <ams> omitting such noise in my client ..
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14:26:09 <dim> ams: C-c C-o runs the command rcirc-omit-mode, you can actually switch on and off as many times as you want
14:26:24 <some_user> Hi, I was writing some code and I got this warning upon compile: ";   The function (SETF FIND) is undefined, and its name is reserved by ANSI CL so
14:26:24 <some_user> ;   that even if it were defined later, the code doing so would not be portable."... So erh, what now?
14:26:35 <ams> dim: yes, it isexactly what i am doing :-)
14:27:02 <some_user> Wouldn't (SETF FIND) be defined in ANSI CL? And it's reserved too, so that's what you would expect.
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14:27:21 <tcr> Nope it's not defined.
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14:28:03 <tcr> You might be looking for (SETF GETF)
14:29:12 <some_user> tcr: But then why make it reserved? Also, I'm FINDing an element in a list and then trying to SETF that element
14:29:42 <tcr> what does 'setf that element' mean? Replace it in the sequence?
14:29:49 <tcr> there's a function substitute
14:29:49 <some_user> Yes, exactly
14:29:56 <Krystof> it's reserved because otherwise some_user might make a (SETF FIND) function, and some_other_user might make a different (SETF FIND), and then there would be collisions
14:30:16 <Quadrescence> some_user, so don't you want REPLACE
14:31:02 <Quadrescence> no, nevermind
14:31:35 <Krystof> (setf find) is not quite as weird as (setf format), but nearly so
14:31:38 <some_user> Quadrescence: Nah, I do think however that I want SUBSTITUTE-IF which I just found while googling for REPLACE :-)
14:31:46 <Quadrescence> yes SUBSTITUTE(-IF)
14:31:54 <Quadrescence> with :COUNT 1 as a key
14:32:39 <Quadrescence> NSUBSTITUTE for non-consing magicke
14:33:49 <some_user> Yup, excellent, thanks guys!
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14:35:18 <ams> mm.. (setf find) seems like a good idea for some odd reason
14:36:02 <Quadrescence> how would (setf find) be different from nsubstitute(-if)
14:36:37 <some_user> ams: I'd prefer NSUBSTITUTE, that's more clear than (setf find)
14:37:53 <ams> it wouldn't..
14:37:54 <sellout> some_user: You want (setf foo (substitute  foo))
14:39:28 <ams> in a sense, setf car isn't much different from rplaca ... so "how would that be different" is kinda a useless metric..
14:40:02 <Krystof> (let ((foo "axbxc")) (setf (find #\x foo) nil) foo)
14:40:24 <Krystof> what's the return value?
14:40:46 <ams> Krystof: seems :-)
14:41:10 <Quadrescence> i would type error
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14:46:01 <francogrex> is there a way to 'dynamically' instruct asdf to compile (and load) files to (and from) a specific location instead of the default? I know I can change the default asdf directory location by changuing the src in the asdf but that's not my intention
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14:53:57 <ams> francogrex: can't you just bind asdf:*central-registry* and and frob asdf-output-translations?
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14:54:44 <ams> or source-registry .. whatever it is called
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15:08:50 <francogrex> ams maybe I will try
15:10:21 <Xach> francogrex: what is the context?
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15:12:26 <francogrex> Xach I suspect you have seen my question (if not I will type it down again). I am making a spartan image of sbcl (actually within the "able" system) and would like that it loads and compiles asdf from within the same folder as the image instead of the default location.
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15:13:52 <francogrex> one option is to compile the asdf systems already within the image (like I did for some) but I don't want to recompile an image eevry time I need to add a new library
15:14:09 <nan_> hello everone, after i make a project with quickproject:make-project, ql:quickload 'project works just fine. but when i quit lisp and come back, ql:quickload 'project can't load it, what am i missing?
15:14:10 <H4ns> francogrex: you'll have to set up asdf:*central-registry* to point to your desired source directory tree
15:14:47 <francogrex> H4ns: yes it seems like it; like ams suggested. I will try tha.
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15:15:24 <Xach> nan_: make-project temporarily extends the ASDF registry to include the path to your new project. It does not make that extension permanent.
15:15:46 <Xach> nan_: one option is to make new projects in a directory that ASDF is configured to know about.
15:15:47 <H4ns> francogrex: look at the setup-registry function here: http://bknr.net/svn/deployed/bos/projects/lisp-ecoop/src/load.lisp
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15:16:09 <Xach> nan_: I put my projects in ~/quicklisp/local-projects/ because Quicklisp teaches ASDF about projects in that path automatically.
15:16:33 <nan_> Xach: thanks alot, i am going to try it now
15:20:21 <nan_> Xach: works just fine now, thanks for the great tools.
15:21:18 <Xach> no problem
15:22:03 <francogrex> ok thanks
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16:02:56 <deselby> Hi, I'd like to try the clsql tutorial with mysql and i am getting this error when trying to connect: UNDEFINED-FUNCTION MYSQL-GET-CLIENT-INFO, I've tried copying shared helper libs around and adding paths with clsql:push-library-path, am I missing something? libmysqlclient.so is in /usr/lib64/mysql
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17:51:18 <sellout42> Is cxml the library of note for doing xml stuff?
17:51:26 <ams> hm.
17:51:33 <axion> sellout42: sexml
17:51:38 <H4ns> sellout42: yes.
17:52:09 <H4ns> sellout42: i find it to be complete and convenient.  it also deals with a large subset of xml.  large enough to not find it limiting.
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17:52:24 <ams> sellout42: you will get 10 different answers, all of them correct.
17:52:33 <sellout42> H4ns: Danke.
17:52:57 <sellout42> ams: That's fine, was more looking out for dissenting opinion.
17:53:03 <ams> :-)
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17:53:23 <sellout42> axion: Looks like that only does sexp->XML, but I really need parsing.
17:53:25 <H4ns> sellout42: plexxipus-xpath is very slow though.  slow enough to make it actually too slow for many applications.  i've used cl-libxml2 for that.
17:53:40 <axion> cxml is great then
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18:21:35 <ams> mm...
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18:31:03 <bobbysmith0071> sellout42: my company uses cxml extensively, particularly dom.  I am also the author of the css-selectors lib which operates upon dom documents and subtrees
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18:32:05 <ams> bobbysmith0071: what company?
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18:35:13 <Xach> https://www.acceleration.net/ is it
18:35:36 <ams> cool, thanks.
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18:36:12 <bobbysmith0071> Xach, ams: exactly
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18:38:19 <samebchase> gramming
18:38:19 <samebchase> Numbegramming
18:38:30 <samebchase> sorry
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18:50:05 <ams> mm..
18:50:15 *Xach* wonders what https://github.com/timoore/lpsg is all about
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18:51:32 <Krystof> "High Performance OpenGL for Common Lisp"?
18:53:01 <Xach> It doesn't seem to build.
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19:06:58 <ams> kinda fun to browse github for peoples "misc" repos
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19:18:54 <pnpuff> ams: is better to use a viewer ?
19:19:12 <ams> pnpuff: huh what?
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19:26:30 <pnpuff> like gitalist to say...
19:28:00 <ams> pnpuff: sorry, i genuinely do not understand you right now, what are you talking about?
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19:29:46 <pnpuff> nothing: it's better that I remain In topic. I'm sorry for the unuseful digression.
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20:04:05 *ams* still has no idea what was being asked.
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20:16:53 <maxm> so anything came out from lib consolidation, was a mailing list decided on? or should I subscribe to that "pro" thing?
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20:18:20 <fe[nl]ix> no decision was made
20:18:51 -!- superflit [~superflit@209-181-74-35.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
20:19:47 <ams> maxm: knowing the cl community, nothing will come to fruit
20:20:29 AlbireoX`Laptop [~AlbireoX@76.78.168.118] has joined #lisp
20:20:43 <sykopomp> the decision is HACK MORE LIBRARIES
20:20:45 <sykopomp> :)
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20:23:12 <Xach> ams: Go insult some other community.
20:23:36 <p_l> actually, due to Xach's efforts, I suspect we have a better shot at it now
20:24:05 <Xach> That was partly the topic of gigamonkey's talk in Reno
20:24:07 <maxm> well for example I never knew about fare's data structure library
20:24:11 brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-142-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp
20:24:22 <Xach> maxm: Discovery should be easier.
20:24:24 <maxm> I'd like to consilidate my copy-instance stuff I have in cl-maxlib
20:24:34 -!- [SLB] is now known as [SLB]`
20:24:46 <maxm> coz seems to be really useful to have CLOS customizable deep copying
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20:33:47 <ams> p_l: quicklisp is all nice, but the whole lib consolidation thing is a different story.
20:34:03 <ams> it is quite sad that xach is so full of anger that the first thing he does is start attacking..
20:34:16 <Xach> ams: Go away.
20:34:17 <guaqua> urgh. can't we just kick him?
20:34:27 <ehu> ban.
20:34:33 <guaqua> he attacks on someone every single day
20:34:40 <ams> just creating common lisp took a SHITE long time, when the community was far smaller .. everyone wanted to have their say, and whatever, indeed, just the fact that CL exists is quite amazing.
20:34:57 <ehu> ams: shut up.
20:35:11 <ams> Uhm, no.
20:35:17 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o Xach
20:35:18 -!- Xach has set mode +b *!*ams@gnu/inetutils/ams
20:35:23 -!- Xach has set mode -o Xach
20:35:25 <axion> i just ignored him :)
20:35:36 <Xach> axion: That doesn't work for everyone.
20:36:19 -!- chturne [~chturne@78-105-198-180.zone3.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
20:36:49 <H4ns> i heard he was the only person banned on #emacs, and i don't need to see him here either.  even though in general, ignoring trolls is the best thing one can do.
20:37:35 <axion> heh, ive never seen anyone banned here before
20:37:38 <Xach> H4ns: It looks like xah lee is also banned. So there is kind of a CL connection there.
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20:40:31 <ehu> we have a long bans list here.
20:40:36 <axion> great, i was chosen to be PM harrassed
20:40:45 <H4ns> so was i.
20:41:10 <ehu> hmm. I put him on ignore. Maybe he did the same with me.
20:41:12 <guaqua> everyone that said something and wasn't on his ignore list
20:41:17 <ehu> can't verify now.
20:41:26 <guaqua> (i was on his ignore list already)
20:41:38 <p_l> dunno, i wasn't on his ignore list but I don't have him spamming me
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20:42:09 <H4ns> in any case, it has been going on for several weeks and every day, some quarrel was going on around him.  i'm not going to miss him.
20:42:24 <guaqua> you didn't say anything about his kicking or banning, i guess, p_l
20:42:26 ams-zombie [53e9af32@gateway/web/freenode/ip.83.233.175.50] has joined #lisp
20:43:01 <ams-zombie> Right, spamming == one message, and harassing is now pointing out some incorrect facts in a single message.
20:43:08 <ams-zombie> Quite funny ... as are the personal attacks here.
20:43:12 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o Xach
20:43:14 -!- Xach has set mode +b *!*53e9af32@*.83.233.175.50
20:43:19 -!- ams [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has been kicked from #lisp by Xach (Go away)
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20:43:28 -!- Xach has set mode -o Xach
20:44:30 <Xach> We so rarely get such a high quality of troll like that any more. They used to be in all the time. Now we usually just get spammers, or off-topic ramblers, or other crud.
20:44:50 <ehu> lol
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20:46:16 <prxq> in a way, this is progress.
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20:47:32 <axion> wow, first one on freenode in years to be permanent ignored....relentless
20:47:49 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-31-93.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
20:48:21 <Xach> Alfred M. Szmidt, you are banned from #lisp for frequent insults, off topic junk, and giving bad advice. Do not come back.
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20:53:13 <dim> H4ns: thanks.
20:53:25 <dim> sorry, can't read
20:53:28 <dim> Xach: thanks.
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20:54:39 <jasom> Are you a troll if you don't know you're a troll?  I always considered part of trolling to be intent.
20:55:34 <Krystof> let us not worry about that on this day of all days
20:55:49 <dim> I've been suffering ams on #emacs before he got banned, same on #lisp, I'm not that eager to get to learn #scheme
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20:56:27 <axion> intent of disruption is needed
20:56:28 <jasom> okay.  Completely different topic: when deserializing a dictionary (strings mapping to arbitrary values) do you intern the keys in :keyword, or use #'equal?
20:56:37 <axion> to be a troll
20:57:23 <ehu> jasom: I use #'equal hash tables
20:57:46 <dim> I'd like to make a macro where one of the arguments is the name of a binding I want to then use. I want to macro to bind it to a value for me. Is that a use case for symbol-macrolet?
20:58:04 <H4ns> jasom: i use keywords or interned symbols if i refer to them literally, from source code.  otherwise, i use strings
20:58:52 <H4ns> dim: "a binding" meaning "a variable name"?  then no.
20:59:25 <jasom> H4ns: this is for a general deserialization library for tnetstrings, which is a json-ish type format, so I don't know if how it will be used.
20:59:27 <dim> I'm not sure anymore what a variable is in cl so I've been avoiding the term "variable name" here, but I would have used it otherwise, yes
20:59:35 <Bike> just use let.
21:00:10 <H4ns> jasom: leave it up to the library user how the keys are handled, and use #'equal for the table.
21:00:12 <dim> my current macro is doing `(let* ((lp:*kernel* *hello-world-kernel*) (,channel-name (lp:make-channel))) (progn ,@body)) among other things
21:00:14 <dim> looks cool?
21:00:22 <H4ns> dim: yes.
21:00:30 <H4ns> dim: except for the extra progn
21:00:53 <dim> I saw that in an example, and ,@body was erroring out
21:00:55 <jasom> H4ns: that's what I was leaning towards anyway.  Sounds good
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21:01:13 <dim> oh, (,@body) of course
21:01:35 <H4ns> dim: (,@body) would "of course" be wrong
21:01:42 <ehu> dim: `(let (...) ,@body)
21:01:53 <dim> that was the form that I got errors with
21:02:01 <dim> I should try CL before being tired each evening
21:02:20 <dim> after a full day of C structures, pointers and lists, look at that
21:02:20 <jasom> dim: do a macroexpand on it and see why
21:02:25 <ehu> being exhausted isn't a good state to learn CL.
21:02:43 <dim> ((code)) is the expansion, I can understand that (once hinted)
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21:15:27 <dim> macroexpand should return the expanded code right? I get NIL NIL as return values?
21:15:59 <Bike> you probably forgot to quote it.
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21:18:11 <dim> that's how n00b I am, yes, thanks a lot
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21:20:02 <dim> mmm, could using setf in a macro be trickier than it looks?
21:20:14 <H4ns> dim: no.
21:20:14 <dim> yes it's my first macro
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21:22:12 <dim> oh, works now. I just changed a variable name in the form that uses the macro
21:22:16 <H4ns> dim: it is mostly about getting the quoting right
21:22:47 <dim> in (with-temp-channel 2 channel ...code...)  I changed channel to chan and now it's ok
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21:23:07 <dim> I must have set something strange around channel in that environment?
21:23:16 <H4ns> dim: it is not likely that you've properly solved the problem
21:23:19 <dim> the defmacro form uses channel-name
21:23:41 <dim> I'm happy with the macro expansion and it looks good, let me recheck, think, then paste
21:23:41 <H4ns> dim: but when you don't show what you have, it is all guesswork
21:23:58 <dim> I don't want to show *any* attempt
21:24:14 <ehu> dim: then it's hard to coach you.
21:24:29 <dim> mm. fair enough. pasting.
21:25:09 <dim> http://paste.lisp.org/display/133579
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21:25:54 <dim> yeah it seems to be ok
21:26:06 <dim> I've restarted my lisp image to restest, it seems happy about it
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21:26:32 <H4ns> dim: looks good except for the setf.  also, i'd give the with-macro one argument instead of two and the body.
21:26:45 <dim> on argument that is a list?
21:26:51 <H4ns> dim: yes.
21:27:37 <dim> done
21:27:43 <dim> what's about the setf?
21:28:14 <dim> it's made that way so that it's easy to control the *hello-world-kernel* (like, end it) if you ever need that while it's running
21:28:18 <H4ns> dim: i'm not quite sure why you want the *hello-world-kernel* - why not just create one and kill it in the end?
21:28:23 <dim> the author of lparallel hinted me that way
21:28:44 <H4ns> dim: the way you have it now, if there already is a *hello-world-kernel*, it will be lost after this macro has been used.
21:28:52 <H4ns> (leaking threads)
21:29:06 <dim> end-kernel is collecting?
21:29:23 <dim> the unwind-protect form ensures that end-kernel is called, right?
21:29:38 <dim> and it's called with lparallel:*kernel* bound to *hello-world-kernel*
21:29:39 <H4ns> sure.  but what if *hello-world-kernel* is bound to something before the macro is used?
21:29:55 <dim> that something would get lost
21:30:06 <H4ns> right.  that is not good.  why do that?
21:30:24 <dim> the only reason is to be able to end-kernel *hello-world-kernel* if needs be
21:30:32 <dim> I'll add a check-kernel or something, reading the API
21:31:08 <H4ns> you are unconditionally calling lp:end-kernel in your cleanup form, so there is no point in having *hello-world-kernel* kernel at all
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21:31:34 <dim> that's my view too
21:31:38 <H4ns> just bind lp:*kernel* to the new kernel and call (lp:end-kernel) in your cleanup form.
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21:32:06 <dim> the lparallel author is trying to make me implement that his way, and his way is to have a dynamic binding so that you can end-kernel from the REPL
21:32:45 <H4ns> _or_, if you want to go with what the lparallel author suggests, create the kernel very early in your application and end it when the application exits.
21:32:47 <dim> so I'm trying to conciliate both viewpoints and it's not as good as any
21:32:57 <H4ns> but that'd happen way way outside of what you seem to do right here.
21:33:15 <dim> the all application is what you see, it's a demo stupid app
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21:33:32 <dim> hello-world is the entry point, and that's it
21:33:33 <H4ns> the name "with-temp-channel" suggest otherwise.
21:34:05 <dim> again, suggested by lparallel author (he proposed with-temp-kernel, while at it I wanted the macro to create me a channel too)
21:34:22 <H4ns> with-temp-kernel is fine
21:34:36 <H4ns> do not fold the channel in there.  problem solved.
21:34:40 <dim> it's about having a good reference I guess, but in a so dead simple application that it's stretching it I guess
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21:34:59 <dim> it was only the kernel first, but I'm trying to push it
21:35:31 <H4ns> don't.  macros should be used when required, not just because you can.
21:36:01 <dim> well my API point is that I know I want only 1 channel in that kernel. Always.
21:36:19 <H4ns> *shrug*
21:36:36 <dim> I used lparallel in several applications where a single channel was all I needed
21:36:56 <maxm> /me needs to decide on new default pattern layout for log4cl.. Now that I'm adding decent slime integration. Do any of these look preferable to one onether? http://i.imgur.com/0yDuI.png
21:36:56 <maxm>  
21:36:59 <dim> I could maybe base with-temp-channel on with-temp-kernel
21:37:15 <maxm> I need to decide on new default pattern layout for log4cl.. Now that I'm adding decent slime integration. Do any of these look preferable to one onether? http://i.imgur.com/0yDuI.png
21:37:15 <maxm>  
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21:37:41 <maxm> the colors are kind of baddish too, but I'm bad with colors (the colors are needed so ppl know its right-clickable)
21:38:53 <dlowe> I like the idea of s-exp logs myself
21:39:19 <dlowe> (@2012-11-06T12:00:00-04:00 INFO "Testing")
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21:40:45 <maxm> well the idea behind presenting all the info above, is you can right click on each part, and narrow down logging per package, file, function etc.. So its ok to have tons of debug sprinkled in a big app, coz its easy to narrow down to specific part...
21:41:26 *maxm* usually starts off with debug root logger, then quickly right-clicks off parts I don't need, then do (log:save :debuggig-prob-x), so I can restore that config easily
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21:42:08 <maxm> not sure how much ppl work same way I do tho.. I seen java programmers debug the same way with log4j, but with lisp its so much more powerful, then editing log4j.properties manually
21:44:57 Thra11_ [~thrall@146.90.205.148] has joined #lisp
21:45:09 <ehu> maxm: one is configuration, the other is analysis.
21:45:21 <ehu> different purposes, I'd say.
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21:49:28 <puchacz> hi, how to call setf with optional argument, pls? e.g. http://random-state.net/log/3507968044.html
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21:50:38 <sykopomp> puchacz: (defun (setf foo) (new-value &optional x) ...) (setf (foo 1) ...)
21:50:50 <dlowe> I'd be okay with &optional going away entirely, myself
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21:51:29 <H4ns> dlowe: make a wish to the ansi cl comittee!
21:51:51 <dlowe> well, I'm not going to take up arms for the cause :p
21:52:00 <puchacz> ok, so x=1 in this example?
21:52:09 <dlowe> but I think it inhibits readability
21:52:24 <puchacz> ok, got it
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21:52:26 <puchacz> thanks
21:52:29 <dim> H4ns: it seems better now, with-temp-channel is using with-temp-kernel, I only have to figure out with it's returning the end-kernel result (that's the cleanup-form of the unwind-protect form)
21:53:25 <pkhuong> dlowe: I think it's incredibly useful for convenience and when refactoring.
21:53:49 <dim> http://paste.lisp.org/display/133579#1
21:54:33 <H4ns> dim: i still do not understand what *hello-world-kernel* is about
21:54:44 <dim> agreed
21:54:59 <dim> will progress on that by email with lparallel author
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21:55:12 <dlowe> pkhuong: I'd rather use keyword arguments everywhere that &optional is used.
21:55:18 <H4ns> dim: he says that if you need multiple kernels, you keep them in global variables
21:55:19 <dim> H4ns: do you see why with-temp-channel is returning the result of end-kernel?
21:55:40 <H4ns> dim: but as you only require one kernel, there is no point in using an extra variable for that.
21:55:46 <pkhuong> dlowe: also, keyword arguments are surprisingly tricky.
21:56:05 <H4ns> dim: yes.
21:56:19 <H4ns> dim: your unwind-protct is entirely wrong.
21:56:34 <H4ns> dim: there, you need a (progn ,@body)
21:56:49 <dim> I think I understand why
21:56:51 <dim> thx
21:57:12 <dim> unwind-protect protects a single form
21:57:23 <dim> I'm lucky that in my case it did happen to work
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21:57:56 <dim> better now, thanks a lot
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21:59:03 <dim> so, say I have that use case where I do (hello:hello-world 1222333444) or some other very big number, and now in the REPL I want to stop the stupidity
21:59:15 <dim> would that be a use case for that strange setf?
21:59:46 <H4ns> no.  you could also setf lp:*kernel*
21:59:46 <Bike> couldn't you just end lp:*kernel*
22:00:12 francogrex [~user@109.130.126.55] has joined #lisp
22:00:49 <dim> lparallel author then argues that REPL usage would get broken, because the main *kernel* is now ended
22:00:54 <dim> you want to preserve it
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22:01:22 <H4ns> he wants you to setf lp:*kernel* and not automatically end-kernel it.
22:01:41 <H4ns> you're throwing too many things together.
22:01:58 <dim> well he proposed with-temp-kernel too, so I don't understand not ending it with such a macro name
22:02:13 <dim> and I agree with throwing too many things together
22:02:35 <dim> I'll stop here for tonight and actually get back to reviewing my C patch
22:02:48 <H4ns> please.  understand that the person that you got your initial advice from is not here to discuss.
22:02:54 <dim> thanks again, your help here (all) is much appreciated
22:02:55 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.13.68] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
22:03:00 <francogrex> I am using the rough plain old cgi without any library help - yeah I think using libraries is very sissies :) - I like it the tough way! anyway when the html form has the method post and the input type submit I can simple use (read-line) to process the inputted value. But what when the input=radio bottons? How can I get in my lisp what value has been selected?
22:03:00 <dim> H4ns: I'll continue by email with him
22:03:07 <H4ns> dim: thank you.
22:03:08 <dim> H4ns: and let you know :)
22:03:29 <H4ns> dim: i'm not sure if that is needed.
22:03:34 <dim> fair enough
22:03:37 <H4ns> dim: i've read and understood his advice.
22:03:53 <dim> not the contradictory one from the email though
22:04:01 <dim> or were you in BCC? :)
22:04:22 <H4ns> francogrex: you want to learn cgi basics and come to #lisp for that?
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22:04:53 <francogrex> sorry what I meant when the type=radio.
22:05:31 <francogrex> H4ns: well there is a lisp in it, I am using lisp scripts
22:06:09 <H4ns> francogrex: you need to understand the cgi protocol lol
22:06:44 <francogrex> the thing is I want to learn what would be the equivalent in lisp of php $selected_radio = $_POST['gender'];
22:06:44 <francogrex>  
22:06:59 <francogrex> H4ns: yeah, indeed
22:07:21 <H4ns> francogrex: do you need help finding a cgi protocol description using google?
22:07:44 <francogrex> H4ns: I am not sure a cgi protocal is what I need
22:07:51 <H4ns> obviously.
22:08:10 <francogrex> I need to find the lisp equivalent of some php code
22:08:35 <dim> I hope you won't find them as-is, as the php model is nothing to want to reproduce really
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22:09:14 <dim> well it's obviously my personal opinion only, of course, but I don't really understand what's so much better in the cgi model when compared to the application server model
22:09:35 <H4ns> dim: any idiot can implement cgi
22:09:38 <H4ns> no, wait
22:09:49 <dim> hehe
22:11:41 <dim> I miss so many lisp features when writing C code, and I'm such a CL noob. Maybe I shouldn't improve too much if I want to be able to continue writing C code for a living...
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22:13:26 <Adlai`> Xach, I was wondering whether wigflip pays for itself
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22:14:19 <francogrex> well I think I'll always have to use the type="submit" and read-line or read the QUERY_STRING even in radio bottons :(
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22:30:49 <dim> H4ns: Those ideas were not meant to be combined. Either you make a temp kernel and end it, or you have a spare kernel lying around. --- once more your insight is right :)
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22:36:26 <dim> hindsight, even. wow. crashing now.
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22:46:05 <wakeup> hi all
22:46:15 <wakeup> whats the state of mcclim?
22:46:26 <wakeup> especially drei
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22:48:36 <maxm> dim: the way I debug parallel stuff, I have the global var for current thread pool (kernel in lparallel speak), and then have ad-hoc (defun stop () "kill all parallel stuff from orbit")
22:49:16 <maxm> so when you realized you screwed up, and have 4 sldb windows (with 4 threads faulting at the same time), you just press E (eval) and type (stop)<enter>
22:49:18 <maxm> to kill it
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22:49:51 <maxm> I assume its possible to do lp:end-kernel without :wait, and have it terminate-thread forcufully on everything, and unwind the main thread
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22:50:16 <maxm> if not, then write your own.. You want to kill all extra threads, except for the one you called it from, that one you want to unwind
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22:57:43 <maxm> imho this part should be part of the framework, I would investigate farther if lparallel already has something similar. Because I can't imagine one debugging any parallel stuff interactively without above setup.. Could be lparallel author has it, but have not released it, in this case ping him
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23:29:45 <Xach> Adlai`: itself and more besides
23:29:59 *Xach* subsidizes his camera habit with his lisp habit
23:30:42 <Adlai`> nice
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