00:06:11 -!- honkfestival [~honkfesti@CPE00222d55a738-CM00222d55a735.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [] 00:08:41 catmtking [~catmtking@108-224-122-111.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:13:09 pirateking-_- [~piratekin@unaffiliated/pirateking---/x-2885143] has joined #lisp 00:18:00 -!- agumonkey [~agu@183.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:23:14 -!- pirateking-_- [~piratekin@unaffiliated/pirateking---/x-2885143] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:27:51 -!- gffa [~unknown@unaffiliated/gffa] has quit [Quit: sleep] 00:28:35 zerowaitstate [~dwaites@ppp-70-254-40-123.dsl.lgvwtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 00:29:37 -!- catmtking [~catmtking@108-224-122-111.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: catmtking] 00:31:08 nforgerit [~nforgerit@HSI-KBW-149-172-198-162.hsi13.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 00:31:23 catmtking [~catmtking@108-224-122-111.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:32:58 -!- catmtking [~catmtking@108-224-122-111.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 00:34:54 -!- mikaelj [~tic@c83-248-165-159.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:35:01 mikaelj [~tic@c83-248-165-159.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 00:36:11 -!- circle [~circle@203-219-13-238.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:36:29 -!- ebobby [~fms@70-36-138-244.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 00:50:02 pirateking-_- [~piratekin@unaffiliated/pirateking---/x-2885143] has joined #lisp 00:59:10 is there a portable way to specify file encodings for asdf systems? 01:00:47 -!- pirateking-_- [~piratekin@unaffiliated/pirateking---/x-2885143] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:00:59 -!- Sorella [~quildreen@oftn/member/Sorella] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:02:10 opohopoh [me@unaffiliated/hopohopo] has joined #lisp 01:02:15 -!- opohopoh is now known as hopohopo 01:03:50 ebobby [~fms@70-36-138-244.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 01:04:13 -!- ebobby is now known as Guest15124 01:07:06 -!- nforgerit [~nforgerit@HSI-KBW-149-172-198-162.hsi13.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Quit: nforgerit] 01:08:22 PuercoPo` [~user@190.41.173.174] has joined #lisp 01:08:22 -!- PuercoPop [~user@190.41.173.174] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:11:03 -!- zerowaitstate [~dwaites@ppp-70-254-40-123.dsl.lgvwtx.swbell.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:11:12 -!- Guest15124 [~fms@70-36-138-244.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:13:54 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-141-4-229.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:15:32 zxq9 [~zxq9@FL1-111-169-176-119.okn.mesh.ad.jp] has joined #lisp 01:17:18 Yuuhi`` [benni@p5483BC13.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 01:17:18 -!- Jasko2 [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:17:59 Jasko2 [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:19:05 -!- Yuuhi` [benni@p5483B9F0.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 01:20:51 H4ns: good questin .. istr having done that before, but that was a while ago. 01:20:56 question* 01:24:34 -!- oubiwann [~oubiwann@98.207.167.39] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:25:35 ok, things have changed in the last few years.... i remember doing a conversion to utf-8 of the source files , which I may have gotten from cmu or mit or clan... and I do not remember it being in ASDF at all. 01:26:15 drewc: i resorted to making utf-8 the default character set for the lisp, 01:26:17 of course, fare probably knows a bit more about it 01:26:32 yeah, that is what I do as well. 01:27:04 pirateking-_- [~piratekin@unaffiliated/pirateking---/x-2885143] has joined #lisp 01:27:49 beyond 'avoid anything but ansi in source files' that is, because that is my first step... but then yes. *default-external-format* 01:29:34 superflit_ [~superflit@184-96-102-115.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 01:30:41 -!- superflit [~superflit@65-128-45-240.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:30:41 -!- superflit_ is now known as superflit 01:31:23 -!- pirateking-_- [~piratekin@unaffiliated/pirateking---/x-2885143] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:36:10 -!- Euthy [~euthy@unaffiliated/euthydemus] has quit [Quit: leaving] 01:38:20 mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.96.94] has joined #lisp 01:48:59 H4ns: the latest asdf supports specifying the encodings. it was discussed (to death) on the list. 01:51:08 antonv [5d7d31f9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.49.249] has joined #lisp 01:56:02 drewc: what was up or down with common-lisp.net and should someone have called you earlier? 02:00:59 ioa [~xmike@dynamic2-248-011.usc.edu] has joined #lisp 02:07:30 ebobby [~fms@70-36-138-244.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 02:07:54 -!- ebobby is now known as Guest98906 02:09:51 antgreen [~user@dsl-173-206-243-53.tor.primus.ca] has joined #lisp 02:12:20 -!- Guest98906 [~fms@70-36-138-244.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:12:47 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.96.94] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:12:47 -!- Jasko2 [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:13:13 Jasko2 [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:15:38 I believe hosting for the machines died? 02:36:07 zerowaitstate [~dwaites@ppp-70-254-40-123.dsl.lgvwtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 02:42:25 toekutr [~user@50-0-51-2.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 02:42:26 joast [~rick@76.178.135.192] has joined #lisp 02:54:09 -!- PuercoPo` is now known as PuercoPop 03:01:18 -!- leoncamel [~user@124.126.218.104] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 03:03:03 -!- benny [~user@i577A71E6.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:07:53 ebobby [~fms@70-36-138-244.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 03:08:17 -!- ebobby is now known as Guest31475 03:12:30 -!- Guest31475 [~fms@70-36-138-244.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 03:14:34 pirateking-_- [~piratekin@unaffiliated/pirateking---/x-2885143] has joined #lisp 03:16:46 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-24-21-251-38.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:17:31 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A211C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 03:19:34 -!- sambio [~sambio@190.57.227.109] has quit [] 03:22:19 huangjs [~huangjs@69.84.244.131] has joined #lisp 03:30:11 -!- hilbert [~Hilbert@adsl-89-217-212-152.adslplus.ch] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/] 03:30:54 phax [~phax@c-67-161-5-247.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:32:05 -!- phax [~phax@c-67-161-5-247.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 03:32:05 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 03:36:04 -!- doomlord [~doomlod@host81-157-102-115.range81-157.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:39:16 sim21 [63071521@gateway/web/freenode/ip.99.7.21.33] has joined #lisp 03:40:50 Hi guys, I have a question. If I have a list, such as (((a b c))), is there an easy way to remove the unnecessary parentheses? 03:41:18 the backspace key? 03:41:31 stlifey_ [~stlifey@116.26.22.225] has joined #lisp 03:42:35 yena [~yena@cpe-72-177-30-155.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:43:46 -!- stlifey [~stlifey@116.19.141.83] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:47:33 well. I'm actually needing to do this with code.. because I have a list ((2 3) () (4 5 () (a b c))) , and on each iteration I'm getting rid of the first value in the list, so eventually I end up with (((a b c))) and I'm not sure how to get rid of the extra parentheses 03:48:31 they're not parentheses. you have a list of a list of a list. 03:49:09 guys: tsunami warning for NA: http://www.google.org/publicalerts/alert?aid=e03a6e895721fff1&hl=en&gl=US&source=web 03:49:10 US and Canada people, check if you should evacuate 03:49:45 so pretty much, i'm going through that list to see if "a" exists in the list, so I have to go through all sublists in the list and see if a exists. using only basic functions such as car, cdr, cons. so once i check a value and it's not equal to "a", i throw it out and keep iterating 03:50:25 well just keep doing what you're doing 03:51:01 once i get to (((a b c))) and try a (car (((a b c)))) i get "variable car has no value" 03:51:21 i'm fairly new to lisp, this is actually a homework assignment and this is the one thing i'm stuck on. 03:51:40 Are you using Scheme? 03:52:10 clisp 03:52:44 If you get that error from (car ...), then you must be doing something other than evaluating it. 03:54:16 oh, it's because i forgot the ' in clisp . so (car '(((a b c)))) gives me ((a b c)) 03:55:11 So my real question is, if I have a bunch of lists before i get to an actual value, would i just keep having to do car until i get to a value? or is there an easier way to remove the extra lists and just have one list? 03:55:25 sim21: by the way -- as a general rule, if you have a problem which is "flatten a list", you're doing something else wrong 03:55:49 that is, you should avoid writing code which *creates* such a messy list 03:55:49 like homework? 03:56:06 asking for homework help on freenode is doing something wrong, yes 03:56:34 sim21: perhaps you should consult your TA? 03:56:36 especially when you're unable to copy/paste error message correctly. 03:58:13 -!- quazimod1 [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 03:59:00 -!- quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:59:18 TA has been no help to me, but I appreciate yall's help. 04:02:04 damn, minion is dead 04:03:57 sim21: http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/ <--- I'm horribly sleepy and a bit ill, so I can't help you more than point you to this book. The majority of first part is concerned about symbolic manipulation using CONSes. It's got good explanations, with illustrations, and iirc there's code (sdraw) that can draw for you the structure 04:04:02 definitely helps 04:05:37 Thank you! 04:10:06 -!- CrazyEddy [~CrazyEddy@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:12:13 -!- huangjs [~huangjs@69.84.244.131] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:13:57 -!- PuercoPop [~user@190.41.173.174] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:15:20 -!- Jubb [~ghost@pool-71-163-107-32.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:15:34 PuercoPop [~user@190.41.173.174] has joined #lisp 04:16:05 ISF [~ivan@201.82.139.24] has joined #lisp 04:16:05 agumonkey [~agu@183.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 04:18:42 -!- yena [~yena@cpe-72-177-30-155.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:19:38 yena [~yena@akasha.ayai.com] has joined #lisp 04:20:06 Xach: earlier when? the hosting company had their cisco router thing crash, so it was down for an hour. Then, the cl-net machine crashed... so I had too `shutdown force && boot` it 04:20:46 it should not have been down 'today' PDT, and if it was, well, this is the first I have heard about it. 04:22:51 justinmcp [~justinmcp@ppp118-208-145-205.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 04:24:22 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:28:17 -!- sim21 [63071521@gateway/web/freenode/ip.99.7.21.33] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 04:30:04 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@rrcs-184-75-115-252.nyc.biz.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 04:30:40 well, I should be ok ... I will tell you in about an hour if I am still alive .. the tsunami should hit by then. 04:36:10 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:36:16 -!- mjonsson [~mjonsson@38.109.95.133] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:36:23 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has joined #lisp 04:38:16 -!- toekutr [~user@50-0-51-2.dsl.static.sonic.net] has left #lisp 04:44:12 cdidd [~cdidd@37-145-137-197.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 04:49:53 -!- _veer [~veer@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 04:50:44 _veer [~veer@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 04:52:50 CrazyEddy [~hypernote@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 04:53:06 -!- findiggle [~kirkwood@50-194-56-154-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:53:13 leoncamel [~user@124.126.218.104] has joined #lisp 04:53:39 -!- justinmcp [~justinmcp@ppp118-208-145-205.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:57:24 -!- Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-71-191-38-245.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 04:59:55 justinmcp [~justinmcp@ppp118-208-145-205.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 05:01:30 teggi [~teggi@113.173.29.2] has joined #lisp 05:03:25 Euthy [~euthy@unaffiliated/euthydemus] has joined #lisp 05:03:30 -!- pirateking-_- [~piratekin@unaffiliated/pirateking---/x-2885143] has quit [Quit: pirateking-_-] 05:05:54 huangjs [~huangjs@69.84.244.131] has joined #lisp 05:08:33 ebobby [~fms@70-36-138-244.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 05:08:57 -!- ebobby is now known as Guest16194 05:13:10 -!- Guest16194 [~fms@70-36-138-244.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:14:33 -!- zxq9 [~zxq9@FL1-111-169-176-119.okn.mesh.ad.jp] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:24:38 ok, so the tsunami was not very large at all, and maybe will hit the howe sound area at about 3cm ... so not a worry here. 05:26:53 -!- justinmcp [~justinmcp@ppp118-208-145-205.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:27:10 glad you're alive, drewc! 05:30:56 -!- antonv [5d7d31f9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.49.249] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:32:30 angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has joined #lisp 05:46:44 pirateking-_- [~piratekin@unaffiliated/pirateking---/x-2885143] has joined #lisp 05:48:14 -!- agumonkey [~agu@183.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:49:00 pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has joined #lisp 05:50:08 ebobby_ [~fms@70-36-138-244.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 05:52:40 vhsmaia_ [~vhsmaia@177.133.98.16.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has joined #lisp 06:02:43 -!- pirateking-_- [~piratekin@unaffiliated/pirateking---/x-2885143] has quit [*.net *.split] 06:02:44 -!- teggi [~teggi@113.173.29.2] has quit [*.net *.split] 06:02:44 -!- _veer [~veer@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [*.net *.split] 06:02:44 -!- antgreen 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[Quit: Lost terminal] 12:16:02 gimbal [~gimbal@209.sub-97-150-190.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 12:19:12 Anyone used FOIL for Lisp+Java ? I was looking for where LIJOS went when I found FOIL instead: http://foil.sf.net/ - haven't seen it mentioned before, in the context of Lisp environments integrating externally with a JVM. FOIL seems to work with C# too, going by the documentation 12:20:34 Not sure if FOIL works in SBCL, but hoping so - mobile atm 12:22:32 I might try to develop a MOP protocol for encapsulating CL+J and jLinker, thinking of designing it to encapsulate FOIL too 12:23:05 PuercoPop [~user@190.41.173.174] has joined #lisp 12:23:16 gimbal: the author of FOIL moved on to other things because he felt it wasn't tight enough integration. i don't know if that means it's not good to use today, though. 12:24:49 Xach: ok :) it looks fairly complete, IMO, looking at the docs, and it seems to provide (in a FOSS Toolchain) support for some features available also in jLinker (the java object stream pattern) 12:25:45 -!- stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-227-108.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 12:26:16 ineiros [~itniemin@li271-145.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 12:26:20 The C# support, IMO, also sounds neat, and I wonder if it could ever serve as a basis of another CL ORB implementation, hypothetically? 12:29:27 -!- blbef [~chatzilla@089144206166.atnat0015.highway.a1.net] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.89 [Firefox 3.6.28/20120306064154]] 12:30:06 On the web tier, also SOAP and JSON represent some kind of object serialization protocols, respectively and afaik - if FOIL could perhaps provide a framework for using those via a unified API, maybe it could be a good thing(tm) 12:31:04 -!- Praise [~Fat@unaffiliated/praise] has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.] 12:31:08 Praise- [~Fat@unaffiliated/praise] has joined #lisp 12:36:19 alama [~jessealam@stgt-5f72995e.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 12:37:15 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-68.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:37:41 there's SPARQL on the web tier, also, and though SPARQL is more an RDF kind of thing, it can work with OWL models too of course - like with OWL classes, properties, and individuals, whose RDF data could also be encapsulated with objects constructed in a MOP extension, hypothetically. IMO, that could be to the extent of FOIL's applicability - will have to take a 12:37:44 Loo 12:38:16 *easye* can't believe how incredibly helpful SLIME's macroexpansion can be. 12:38:33 I used to actually try to hold the whole transformation in my head. 12:38:47 Hrm Tablet input! Will have to take a look at the FOIL code, tho 12:39:53 gimbal: ABCL runs a fair amount of RDF/Semantic Web code. c.f. http://bitbucket.org/easye/jeannie 12:40:14 easye: cool! Will take a look 12:40:22 add^_ [~add^_@m90-141-53-29.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 12:40:24 easye: is that also what Alan runs? 12:41:01 ehu: Nope. His is LSW2 http://lsw2.googlecode.com/ 12:41:10 We use some of the same underlying Java libraries. 12:41:15 but it's also tuple directed, right? 12:41:51 ehu: In the sense that you can always get to the underlying RDF, yes. 12:42:17 But I'm with Patel-Schneider on RDF: people should just treat it as a serialization syntax with local semantics. 12:42:33 (RDF is a 3-vector at base). 12:42:57 yea. (subject, relation-type, object) 12:43:03 that's what I remember from it. 12:43:07 Sort of an s-expr with a local predicate. 12:43:31 easye: Jeanine uses Maven? Or is the M2 repository walker from another feature in the matter? 12:43:35 (but this was late 90s; at which time it was not looking promising at all) 12:43:38 A Lisp-er would see this more as (relation subject object). 12:43:55 :-) 12:43:56 gimbal: Uses ABCL-ASDF, which uses Maven if it can find it locally. 12:44:13 -!- Praise- [~Fat@unaffiliated/praise] has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.] 12:44:20 Praise [~Fat@unaffiliated/praise] has joined #lisp 12:44:34 easye: ah, I see 12:44:39 https://bitbucket.org/easye/jeannie/ 12:44:51 Sorry. 12:45:07 New (old) keyboard. 12:48:16 Lol 12:49:43 francogrex [~user@109.130.136.229] has joined #lisp 12:50:39 A slightly older platform that will need a bit of porting after five years of bit rout comes from Alex Mihrai (sp?) http://abcl-web.sourceforge.net/rdf.html 12:51:21 And some version of Wilbur (Nokia) is available from Quicklisp. 12:53:17 whitedawg [~suraj@122.172.188.249] has joined #lisp 12:56:54 easye: I remember reading about Wilbur. Not to rip off Franz' client/server model as in Allegrograph, but if FOIL works in current Lisp implementations, I'd like to see how well it can perform with Jena being loaded in the remote JVM 12:58:08 I'd expect A-graph to be much more performant. But maybe Jena is easier to bold abstractions on top of? 12:58:20 s/bold/build/ 12:58:38 Lol I'm still stuck on the thought of using Lisp as a container for Java, in a sense - not sure if I'd be able to understand the data flow with the JVM containing a Lisp environment 12:58:41 leo2007 [~leo@182.48.109.8] has joined #lisp 13:00:02 easye: I feel more confident about the Jena API, in addition to that it may be easier for me to use, considering that recent Agraph releases seem to depend on having a 64 but Linux image available - platform dependency kinda 13:00:21 loke_erc_ [~user@bb115-66-85-121.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 13:00:34 Yeah, but I wouldn't want to use Jena in Java... 13:01:54 Jeannie aims to be something very simple on top of Jena: just load RDF, check satisfaction of subgraphs, perform SPARQL queries. All the programming would be in the RDF you feed it. 13:02:44 I think I don't want to use Java in Java lol - no matter how long I look at Eclipse, no matter how many little lines of code, it still seems a lot more awkward to me than, IMO, Common Lisp in SLIME 13:02:59 Sure. 13:03:13 I get a little of mileage out of Emacs macros. 13:03:21 to be fair, Eclipse is a terrible tool, for anything. That includes Java development. 13:03:44 Eclipse is a platform, which suffers from poor packaging. 13:04:08 The original purity of the pre-2000 design just can't handle the information overload in the plugins. 13:04:11 easye: fwiw, I've made a note about it - focusing more on the object proxy/mediator model ATM, but should take a look at the semantic stuff sometime 13:04:19 galabad [~user@cpe-24-93-171-22.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:04:19 I actually found Eclipse to be a good tool for java development. Huge and bloated though. 13:04:26 and increasingly flaky 13:04:37 But better than the competition 13:04:59 I always fallback to Emacs when I use Eclipse. Less so with Netbeans. 13:05:12 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-68.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 13:05:27 mstevens: I've had the misfortune to have to develop Eclipse plugins. The API is probably the worst garbage I've ever seen, and I've seen some crappy stuff in my days 13:05:42 mstevens: For Java, I'd recommend IntelliJ IDEA. For everything else, I use Emacs. 13:05:59 loke_erc_: I rejected IDEA on the grounds I didn't have lots of money 13:06:14 gimbal: Are you thinking about something specific for "object proxy/mediator"? Or it just "the general idea"? 13:06:19 mstevens: I'm surprised you'd think IDEA to be worse than Eclipse. I've never seen anyone do that. 13:06:32 mstevens: IDEA community eidition (open source) is definitely good 13:06:43 mstevens: You probably don't need the things Enterprise gives you 13:06:53 mstevens: The free IntelliJ happened in the last 18 months or so. 13:07:02 easye: ah, I was doing java prior to this 13:07:23 *easye* hasn't had time to check IntelliJ out yet. 13:07:27 IMO, Eclipse has some neat extensions - Maven and Ivy support; SCCM integration; Mylyn; RCP; EMF; and so in. It still seems like a headache to me, though, but then again maybe that's a side effect of trying to develop in the Java box ;) 13:07:28 loke_erc_: IDEA looked like it might be good but I couldn't justify the cost 13:07:30 Too busy writing Lisp !; 13:08:23 mstevens: Well, if you have to do Java again, have a look at it. It's very good, to the point that I wish there was Lisp support for it. 13:08:27 ...or at least, if ex 13:08:43 If exclusively in the Java box, then headache lol 13:08:52 what does idea do that cant be done with more programmability in emacs? 13:09:14 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.39.237] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:09:32 galabad: Since Elisp is turing-complete, nothing 13:09:44 galabad: the refactoring and general understanding of java was what I found most useful 13:09:47 -!- bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.103.30] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:10:21 thanks 13:10:24 loke_erc_: IMO eclipse does smashingly well for geoinformatics, thinking of uDig 13:10:27 bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.103.30] has joined #lisp 13:10:34 I spoke with a ceo using java a couple days ago 13:10:47 he said he was against lisp because it wasnt scalable or extensible 13:10:54 hilbert [~Hilbert@adsl-89-217-212-152.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 13:10:57 Emacs still lacks a reasonable abstraction about Java syntax. 13:10:59 the same lies are still believed 40 years on 13:11:00 galabad: the fuck? :-) 13:11:06 -!- Praise [~Fat@unaffiliated/praise] has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.] 13:11:13 SemanticDB seems like the wrong thing to integrate with emacs-24. 13:11:14 Praise [~Fat@unaffiliated/praise] has joined #lisp 13:11:29 galabad: example useful feature - "extract method" 13:11:46 I mean, SemanticDB doesn't even have a common lisp parser? Tells you a bit about the kind of programmers who created it. 13:11:57 mstevens: "Generate toString()" is another. I can't even begin to imagine how to implement that one in Emacs. 13:12:33 *easye* wants to be able to get to elisp functions that can refactor a method. 13:13:26 the way to do that is to interogate the jvm in one way or another 13:13:44 loke_erc_: hmm you'd need some sort of continuous parser 13:13:55 I think the question should be 'how do we make java a subcomponent library of common lisp' 13:14:42 Im honestly flabergasted that I have to explain to ceo's why java doesnt compare to lisp 13:15:13 I think clojure got it wrong, it should have been java in lisp, not the other way around 13:15:21 GeoSPARQL in Common Lisp - that would be another thing :) I assume Agraph can provide a SPARQL endpoint, but it's not a FOSS Toolchain then, and there's the whole 64 bit linux dep. AFAIK, the Java domain has APIs for GeoSPARQL's fancy DE-9IM matrices tho 13:16:08 galabad: like cloak? 13:16:39 -!- Praise [~Fat@unaffiliated/praise] has quit [Excess Flood] 13:16:46 Praise [~Fat@unaffiliated/praise] has joined #lisp 13:18:09 -!- whitedawg [~suraj@122.172.188.249] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:20:27 -!- hiro3 [~hiro@p210079202073.cnh.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 13:20:32 Odyessus [~odyessus@chello080109062130.15.14.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 13:21:14 java in lisp.... 13:21:22 that honestly doesn't make sense 13:21:31 frx [~yhiselamu@lap.ee] has joined #lisp 13:21:34 gingakozaku [~gingakoza@unaffiliated/gingakozaku] has joined #lisp 13:22:54 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-68.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:22:58 -!- gingakozaku [~gingakoza@unaffiliated/gingakozaku] has left #lisp 13:23:16 *mstevens* vaguely ponders a java equivalent of parenscript 13:23:38 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-68.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 13:24:21 galabad: maybe different goals? 13:24:43 mucker [~mucker@183.83.240.198] has joined #lisp 13:26:07 If you want to do CL in Java, ABCL is pretty damn good 13:26:26 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 13:26:54 -!- Odyessus [~odyessus@chello080109062130.15.14.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:27:27 ams: IMO it fits under the same heading as CORBA in Lisp :) 13:29:29 In GoF patterns, with a proxy or mediator operating between the Lisp env and the JVM env - don't know if that applies in the ABCL environment, though it seems to be operable for describing CL+J and FOIL afaik 13:30:20 gimbal: in ABCL you can operate directly on Java objects. 13:30:25 I tried getting Cthe CL CORBA working once 13:30:36 I'm not entirely sure why. I guess I was bored. 13:31:00 -!- alama [~jessealam@stgt-5f72995e.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:31:13 gimbal: that sentence makes little sense, corba is just a protocol. having a corba interface from lisp makes perfect sense, 13:31:27 talking to other things is always nice 13:31:35 but now, dinner, cheers 13:31:35 Odyessus [~odyessus@chello080109062130.15.14.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 13:31:43 in fact, corba and lisp is rather nice because of lisp's dynamic nature 13:32:05 loke_erc_: it would seem that CORBA hasn't enjoyed wide industry adoption, and I might be able to understand why considering that maybe the OMG's MDA architecture is kind of a big thing to wrap one's API around, IMO 13:32:12 H4ns: I've used it. It wasn't terrible. However, it's about a decade ago now. 13:32:33 gimbal: well yeah. 13:32:46 gimbal: you're making bold claims. there are quite a few large shops who use corba as their backend technology. 13:33:18 Pragmatically, I don't know of anything besides GNOME that provides an ORB, in "Live and common application" - not even sure if that's available any more, and iirc it wasn't too well documented 13:33:20 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.136.229] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 13:33:22 Java RMI can bind to CORBA, so a lot of Java developers in the enterprise use it without even knowing. 13:33:22 -!- emacs-dwim [~user@cpe-67-241-1-145.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:33:32 urandom__ [~user@p548A3A46.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:34:19 H4ns: I have to be careful of my naïveté about it, I understand. I don't have exposure to those shops 13:34:31 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:34:54 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-68.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:35:01 cornihilio [~user@p6fd90806.tokynt01.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 13:35:17 gimbal: you are not taking a perspective that takes a sizeable portion of the "it world" into consideration when you judge from what geeks usually look at in the internets 13:35:27 gimbal: from that perspecive, lisp is pretty much dead, too. 13:36:20 alama [~jessealam@stgt-5f72995e.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 13:36:21 -!- Praise [~Fat@unaffiliated/praise] has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.] 13:36:29 Praise [~Fat@unaffiliated/praise] has joined #lisp 13:36:42 H4ns: ok. Well it's good to know CORBA is in use 13:36:58 gimbal: whether that is good is another matter :) 13:37:55 mjonsson [~mjonsson@38.109.95.133] has joined #lisp 13:38:31 Slivka [~Slivka@31.40.53.196] has joined #lisp 13:39:40 I don't know how widely Spring Remotinf has been adopted, statistically, but I've heard of it, perhaps in the same context as CORBA and RMI 13:39:50 Hey, I just managed to get Lisp into a major bank 13:40:18 They needed a web-tool that integrated some trading acitivites for their customer offices 13:40:25 So, I did it with Hunhcnetoot 13:40:30 gimbal: when I was doing java for money it would've been a bit too modern and exciting for us 13:40:34 -!- PuercoPop [~user@190.41.173.174] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:41:45 mstevens: ah, lol 13:42:09 mstevens: I guess key 13:42:16 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-68.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 13:42:34 Erg I guess buzzwords like "Agile" and "Scrum" might fall under the same heading? 13:42:40 -!- cornihilio [~user@p6fd90806.tokynt01.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:43:48 gimbal: we managed to get a bit of tdd in, but mostly yes 13:43:50 Shameless methodology plug - http://www.mountaingoatsoftware.com/topics/scrum 13:44:11 -!- pnpuff [~aeiou@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has left #lisp 13:44:12 stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-018-176.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 13:44:17 gimbal: It's not in tune with the latest stuff. Scrom and Agile are old news. These days it's... Hmm... I Damn, I can't remember what it's called 13:44:23 I read about it recently though :-) 13:44:59 I used to be a huge TDD, advocate, these days I still like tests but I think TDD is flawed 13:45:06 loke_erc_: lol. Trendiness is Trendy :) 13:45:44 LiamH [~healy@pool-173-73-131-126.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:46:12 TDD can get a bit "who needs to understand anything? we'll just write tests till it works!" 13:47:06 mstevens: I tend to agree with you 13:47:20 -!- fasta [~xchat@xs8.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:47:32 mstevens: the concept behind is-right might suit you. the implementation should probably be better though. 13:47:49 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 13:47:58 I've also seem comic misunderstandings of TDD, like the guy whose system was "person A writes all the tests, then passes them to person B to write the code" 13:48:10 fasta [~xchat@xs8.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 13:48:10 -!- fasta [~xchat@xs8.xs4all.nl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:48:12 madnificent: what that? 13:48:22 mstevens: https://github.com/madnificent/is-right (apparently hard to google this) 13:48:32 fasta [~xchat@xs8.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 13:48:32 madnificent: yeah, I just tried and got "the price is right" 13:48:38 TDD..I see. So is the "One person developer team" model even a viable model, may one inquire? 13:48:41 -!- fasta [~xchat@xs8.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:48:51 mstevens: download the org-file and read it in emacs, i should've exported it and hosted it on github, i guess. 13:48:54 ...boldly... 13:49:18 *easye* is a one person team. 13:49:27 We all are, at some level. 13:49:30 *gimbal* nods 13:49:40 fasta [~xchat@xs8.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 13:49:41 gimbal: yes it can work. 13:49:45 mstevens: the idea is that you execute things in the repl and then say "yup, that's right", and it will save the test and the result in a file 13:49:46 -!- alama [~jessealam@stgt-5f72995e.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 13:49:49 gimbal: you should talk to drewc 13:49:54 So, the real question is what sort of methodology do *I* need? 13:50:09 gimbal: he's a one person team for little over a decade now and going strong. 13:50:17 ehu ok :) 13:50:20 Cool! 13:50:23 Edi Weitz was as well. 13:50:29 (but has turned to other efforts) 13:50:41 I kinda like the idea of design by contract as well 13:50:45 I'm working my way in that direction too. 13:50:59 madnificent: sounds good 13:51:11 Well old villages had blacksmiths, why not codesmiths in new villages? :) 13:52:17 c_arenz [~arenz@HSI-KBW-109-193-252-079.hsi7.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 13:52:20 gimbal: just about every village had a blacksmith, not just old ones. 13:52:21 The running Lisp renaissance hypothesis could be stated as CL is especially suited as a tool for the one person team. 13:52:47 easye: my interest in lisp was based on this theory 13:52:57 easye: as drewc stated to me yesterday "half an hour of lisp development time is quite a lot" 13:53:03 vaguely inspired by steve yegge and paul graham 13:53:36 smithery was one of the sevan arts in the medival ages.. oh well 13:54:46 ams: lol - well cultural paradigms are so? Historic model is a model :) 13:56:04 cultural? nothing to do with culture this .. 13:56:40 Ah, it's the origin of the liberal arts pattern? Citing http://cosmopolis.com/villa/liberal-arts.html 13:57:02 Norvig may be said to be an indication that tools need to be understood by a community. 13:58:29 ams: Well it's technical in pragmatic context, and I don't have my anthropology class book with me, but iirc a culture is a group in society 13:58:44 "The example of the author of PAIP programming publicly in Python for more than a decade." 13:59:49 Indigenous tribes of the Andes, a Common Lisp Programmees 13:59:56 Egg tablet 14:00:06 And such. 14:00:26 *gimbal* scorns tablet for I r 14:00:31 Never mind. 14:00:34 KingsKnighted [~quassel@c-174-52-149-13.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:01:23 agumonkey [~agu@183.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 14:02:11 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-68.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:03:07 I'll leave anthropology to the anthropologists lol 14:05:44 " Patterns of evolution in development of skilled trades " - there, now it's a dissertation title :) 14:05:55 Joreji [~thomas@ip-213-135-245-76.static.luxdsl.pt.lu] has joined #lisp 14:07:39 -!- edgar-rft [~GOD@HSI-KBW-078-043-123-191.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Quit: game over] 14:10:34 -!- Odyessus [~odyessus@chello080109062130.15.14.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi] 14:11:58 sohail [~Adium@69-196-183-228.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 14:11:58 -!- sohail [~Adium@69-196-183-228.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Changing host] 14:11:59 sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 14:12:37 -!- sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Client Quit] 14:13:20 sohail [~Adium@69-196-183-228.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 14:13:20 -!- sohail [~Adium@69-196-183-228.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Changing host] 14:13:20 sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 14:16:17 -!- mucker [~mucker@183.83.240.198] has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:16:32 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-161-162.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: none] 14:22:02 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-161-162.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:22:20 Didn't mean to stop the conversation - just looking at studying sociology, in college. There was the concept of Culture, lol 14:22:31 alama [~jessealam@stgt-5f72995e.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 14:23:42 Anyone read any books by Seth Godim? 14:23:52 Erm Seth Godin rather 14:24:00 Nope. 14:25:06 I'd found his web site when looking at the work of Scott Belsky - Godin's written about marketing and, indirectly, some concepts of culture 14:25:56 gimbal: I did, but it obviously didn't stick because I couldn't tell you anything they said 14:26:23 -!- _veer [~veer@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:26:27 mstevens: lol. Maybe he's more a motivational writer? 14:27:09 gimbal: hmm, I think there was a bit of a motivational feel 14:27:18 pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has joined #lisp 14:27:54 *gimbal* nods 14:30:08 -!- sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:30:53 Odin- [~sbkhh@erudite.anarchism.is] has joined #lisp 14:31:32 iLogical_ [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 14:33:03 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:33:56 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has quit [Quit: Close the world, Open the nExt] 14:34:11 am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has joined #lisp 14:35:29 [SLB]` [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has joined #lisp 14:35:32 .hm. 14:35:43 -!- [SLB]` is now known as [SLB] 14:36:46 _veer [~veer@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 14:40:25 -!- gimbal [~gimbal@209.sub-97-150-190.myvzw.com] has quit [Quit: Rooms  iPhone IRC Client  http://www.roomsapp.mobi] 14:42:28 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@lns-c10k-ft-02-t2-89-83-137-164.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 14:43:47 ivan-kanis [~user@lns-c10k-ft-02-t2-89-83-137-164.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr] has joined #lisp 14:44:52 stickycake [~stickycak@cpe-69-203-115-155.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:46:53 gimbal [~gimbal@209.sub-97-150-190.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 14:47:03 -!- Joreji [~thomas@ip-213-135-245-76.static.luxdsl.pt.lu] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:47:44 -!- spiderweb [~spiderweb@174-28-50-68.albq.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:48:55 Hmm. In CFFI how is FOREIGN-TYPE-SIZE different from FOREIGN-TYPE-ALIGNMENT? I guess I don't understand. 14:50:19 easye: not everything is naturally aligned (particularly when size isn't a power of two). 14:50:36 -!- gimbal [~gimbal@209.sub-97-150-190.myvzw.com] has quit [Client Quit] 14:51:13 hiyosi [~hiyosi@19.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has joined #lisp 14:53:07 -!- sellout42 [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:53:33 spiderweb [~spiderweb@67-0-162-4.albq.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 14:54:54 -!- cdidd [~cdidd@93-80-219-148.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:54:54 salvi [~vukung@78.139.3.238] has joined #lisp 14:54:54 -!- salvi [~vukung@78.139.3.238] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:55:17 drewc: I and others noticed the problem around 6am but nobody knew what the status 14:55:29 mucker [~mucker@183.83.240.198] has joined #lisp 14:55:37 cornihilio [~user@p6fd90806.tokynt01.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 14:55:45 -!- cornihilio [~user@p6fd90806.tokynt01.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:57:31 sellout42 [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:58:21 sohail [~Adium@69-196-183-228.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 14:58:21 -!- sohail [~Adium@69-196-183-228.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Changing host] 14:58:21 sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 15:02:31 -!- agumonkey [~agu@183.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 15:05:00 -!- leo2007 [~leo@182.48.109.8] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 15:05:10 agumonkey [~agu@183.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 15:05:15 pjb [~user@voyager.informatimago.com] has joined #lisp 15:05:49 -!- pjb is now known as pjb-v 15:10:10 zbigniew [~zb@3e8.org] has joined #lisp 15:11:16 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-68.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:15:47 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-248-68.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:16:17 easye: I guess CFFI's user manual doesn't quite attempt to explain the difference, does it? 15:20:43 -!- alama [~jessealam@stgt-5f72995e.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 15:24:27 -!- add^_ [~add^_@m90-141-53-29.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: add^_] 15:25:40 -!- galabad [~user@cpe-24-93-171-22.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 15:25:42 tensorpudding [~tensorpud@99.148.207.165] has joined #lisp 15:31:45 -!- pjb-v [~user@voyager.informatimago.com] has quit [Quit: need to reboot this emacs instance :-(] 15:33:07 -!- pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:33:57 -!- Slivka [~Slivka@31.40.53.196] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:40:39 alama [~jessealam@stgt-5f72995e.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 15:40:54 dtw [~dtw@pdpc/supporter/active/dtw] has joined #lisp 15:41:21 Odyessus [~odyessus@chello080109062130.15.14.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 15:41:50 bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable216.122-57-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 15:46:36 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.39.237] has joined #lisp 15:47:07 -!- LiamH [~healy@pool-173-73-131-126.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:50:54 PuercoPop [~user@190.41.173.174] has joined #lisp 15:53:27 -!- Odyessus [~odyessus@chello080109062130.15.14.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi] 15:53:48 -!- bitonic [~user@wavelan76.dynip.doc.ic.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:54:18 bitonic [~user@li146-81.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 15:56:14 -!- bitonic [~user@li146-81.members.linode.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:56:44 bitonic [~user@wavelan76.dynip.doc.ic.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 15:58:48 jewel [~jewel@105-236-190-2.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:01:22 -!- sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:03:34 paultreselli [~paul@ool-45703813.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 16:03:47 Bike [~Glossina@65-102-1-43.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 16:04:21 -!- Krystof [~user@81.174.155.115] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 16:05:50 hi...been reading docs. and have not yet to find a way to emulate c's printf w variable substitution. ie I want to do something like (print "this string and then some %variable (var1 var2 ... )) 16:06:22 format. 16:06:42 I'm sure if I knew more I could write a macro for this...but why when there is already one...and Bike agrees ..thanks Bike 16:06:50 cdidd [~cdidd@128-68-100-168.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 16:07:41 Krystof [~user@81.174.155.115] has joined #lisp 16:07:49 daniel [~danielmg@201.209.38.229] has joined #lisp 16:08:27 -!- daniel is now known as danielmg 16:08:56 -!- stickycake [~stickycak@cpe-69-203-115-155.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: stickycake] 16:09:03 -!- danielmg [~danielmg@201.209.38.229] has left #lisp 16:12:22 tcr [~tcr@84-72-21-32.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 16:15:02 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@5.34.81.166] has joined #lisp 16:15:03 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@5.34.81.166] has quit [Changing host] 16:15:03 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 16:15:27 -!- gko [~user@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:16:23 They should have gone all-out and made FORMAT turing-complete. 16:16:32 zerowaitstate [~dwaites@ppp-70-254-40-123.dsl.lgvwtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 16:18:21 pnpuff [~aeiou@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 16:19:00 how do you know that format isn't turing complete? 16:21:01 ams: Becuase I have a decent understanding of format capabilities 16:21:58 loke_erc_: so do i 16:22:11 and computing science Ã:-) 16:22:30 ams: So, are you saying that FORMAT is turing-complete? 16:24:20 mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.96.94] has joined #lisp 16:25:53 -!- mucker [~mucker@183.83.240.198] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 16:26:10 loke_erc_: only way to say for sure is to write a utm 16:26:22 or prove that format is in some lesser class 16:27:23 That's a cop-out. :-) I'm not writing a format proof. 16:27:28 formal 16:27:35 hah. appropriate typo 16:27:44 you have looping consturcts, and you can output different things depending on input 16:27:57 so imho, it is quite possible that format is turing complete 16:28:26 and you have conditionals ... 16:28:27 so .. 16:28:34 ams: you might have a way of ticking the tape, but hwo would you implement increment? 16:29:33 why increment? 16:30:45 I'm pretty sure you can make an ~/increment/ custom format directive (: 16:30:45 -!- Jasko2 [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:30:49 afaik FORMAT has no way of "writing to tape"  you can't store an unbounded amount of data and pull it out again. (unless that's buried in the pretty-printer somehow) 16:31:14 Jasko2 [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:31:16 kpreid: yeah, that is a problem .. 16:31:24 -!- pnpuff [~aeiou@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has left #lisp 16:31:43 i was thinking of somehow munging the stream our someething weird .. hehehe 16:33:03 joekarma [~joekarma@S0106602ad090cd68.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 16:36:21 paul0 [~user@201.47.44.78.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has joined #lisp 16:36:38 -!- p_l is now known as p_l|edge 16:37:12 honkfestival [~honkfesti@CPE00222d55a738-CM00222d55a735.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 16:38:18 theseb [~cs@74.194.237.26] has joined #lisp 16:39:34 Indecipherable [~Indeciphe@41.29.22.169] has joined #lisp 16:41:48 Can some answer a simply parsing question regarding http://dabeaz.com/ply/ply.html#ply_nn22 ?? In the example at the end of that section...how come after step 9 the new term isn't associated/converted/reduced/???/ to an expression just like the term in step 4 is associated/converted/reduced/???/ to an expression in step 5? 16:42:24 wrong channel? 16:43:04 theseb: the first problem is that you do not have enough parens around your expressions 16:43:25 joekarma: i didn't know where to post a parsing question since there is no #parsing i'm aware of 16:44:02 ams: this is a general grammar for a simple calculator...not lisp yet 16:44:58 theseb: poor you, you didn't get the joke ...what is step9 and step 4 and 5? 16:45:26 ams: it refers to an example at that url 16:45:34 oh, i see, burried deep down there. 16:45:44 ams: the steps are numbered for your enjoyment 16:46:43 not sure i follow your logic, i don't see the problem in that tabulatin 16:48:20 ams: basically i'm unclear on the ORDER that stuff gets done.. 16:48:39 ams: in my mind....step 10 could have had 2 other variations 16:48:43 theseb: it gets done in the order specified by the grammar 16:49:19 theseb: i don't see how 16:49:20 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:49:25 ams: ok.....can i point out something?....do you see in steps 3-5 where it goes factor->term->expression? 16:50:18 -!- loke_erc_ [~user@bb115-66-85-121.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:50:46 ams: notice steps 7-9 where it goes factor->term.....why doesn't it do factor->term->expression like the last section i showed you? 16:52:10 theseb: i am seriously not following you.... 16:52:53 i'm going to get me some whisky 16:53:00 superflit_ [~superflit@75-171-220-202.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 16:53:12 ams: do you see the table at the end of section 5 at http://dabeaz.com/ply/ply.html#ply_nn22 ? 16:53:21 I think the fundamental problem here is that in order to respond to theseb's question we'd have to read a 37 page document with 43 references to python in it and 0 references to lisp 16:54:43 -!- superflit [~superflit@184-96-102-115.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:54:43 -!- superflit_ is now known as superflit 16:54:54 -!- luis [~luis@nhop.r42.eu] has left #lisp 16:55:11 joekarma: no!...just one tiny piece..that's all 16:56:19 theseb: see privmsg, lets let lispers be rude. 16:56:42 Jubb [~ghost@pool-71-163-107-32.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:58:29 daniel [~danielmg@201.209.38.229] has joined #lisp 16:58:54 -!- honkfestival [~honkfesti@CPE00222d55a738-CM00222d55a735.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 16:59:17 -!- daniel [~danielmg@201.209.38.229] has left #lisp 17:00:03 -!- yena [~yena@akasha.ayai.com] has quit [Quit: yena] 17:00:34 catmtking [~catmtking@108-224-122-111.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:00:36 -!- b0ef [~user@52.168.102.62.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:01:21 b0ef [~user@52.168.102.62.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 17:01:22 -!- Jasko2 [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:01:42 Jasko2 [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:02:17 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:03:28 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:04:13 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@50-196-148-102-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 17:04:32 kpreid [~kpreid@50-196-148-102-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 17:05:24 Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-71-191-38-245.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:06:44 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 17:09:24 Indy [~Indeciphe@41.13.28.188] has joined #lisp 17:09:42 -!- Indy [~Indeciphe@41.13.28.188] has quit [Client Quit] 17:10:06 -!- Indecipherable [~Indeciphe@41.29.22.169] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:11:14 -!- theseb [~cs@74.194.237.26] has left #lisp 17:12:03 kmels_ [~kmels@p5B13E08B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:15:06 -!- CampinSam [~user@24-176-103-21.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:19:27 Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 17:22:53 -!- bjorkintosh [~bjork@ip68-13-229-200.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:25:33 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:26:12 solaris [~solaris@95.69.178.93] has joined #lisp 17:27:19 37 page document with 43 refs? 17:27:49 killerboy [~mateusz@217.17.38.43] has joined #lisp 17:29:57 I just noticed this. 37 and 43 are prime. their difference , 6, has pfactors 2,3. if we order the pfactors and the digits that make up each prime we have a sequence: 1,2,3,3,3,4,7 17:30:36 1 isn't prime. 17:30:45 true 17:32:14 -!- kmels_ [~kmels@p5B13E08B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:32:23 Joreji [~thomas@73-018.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 17:35:23 -!- catmtking [~catmtking@108-224-122-111.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: catmtking] 17:38:34 user__ [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 17:39:43 -!- iLogical_ [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:40:31 -!- c_arenz [~arenz@HSI-KBW-109-193-252-079.hsi7.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:45:33 -!- user__ [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:48:40 MediaWork [~hroi@v01.vedur.is] has joined #lisp 17:48:46 hi 17:49:00 is gcl the most popular open source compiler? 17:49:10 Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 17:49:24 I noticed that it cant create an executable, but it can create object files 17:49:32 gcl is free software, not open source software. 17:49:37 is this normal of all lisp compilers? 17:50:00 gcl isn't popular. sbcl and ccl are probably the most used free ones. 17:50:02 ams: right you are, richard stallman said so 17:50:07 Indecipherable [~Indeciphe@41.26.144.122] has joined #lisp 17:50:10 most common lisp compilers can't create native executables. 17:50:11 Can I paste four lines? Or does I need to take it through a pastebin? 17:50:21 mrcarrot: no, he didn't, the maintainer of gcl did though. 17:50:34 faust45 [~faust45@89.22.254.177] has joined #lisp 17:50:44 mrcarrot: may as well use paste 17:51:04 (defun prompt-read (prompt) 17:51:04 (format *query-io* "~a: " prompt) 17:51:04 (force-output *query-io*) 17:51:06 (read-line *query-io*)) 17:51:12 i don't think that gcl is maintained any more 17:51:51 In this function from PCL, why do I send the output to *query-io*. Why not to 't'? To me only the last line makes sense. 17:51:53 Bike: clisp is quite popular too 17:52:36 MediaWork: commercial common lisps create stand alone executables. 17:53:44 empirically I'd say popularity for open source common lisp implementations goes something like this: sbcl > ccl > ecl > clisp 17:54:13 really? ecl that high? 17:54:22 blbef [~chatzilla@089144206127.atnat0015.highway.a1.net] has joined #lisp 17:54:53 it has its niche 17:54:57 mrcarrot: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/v_debug_.htm this explains what the different streams are supposed to be for. 17:55:02 don't think i ever used ecl 17:55:29 or ccl for that matter ... 17:56:08 most common lisp compilers can't create native executables. <- since when? 17:56:29 sbcl, ccl, clisp ecl all can IIRC 17:56:29 usually they dump an image and prepend themselves to them 17:56:30 Bike: Thanks! 17:56:34 frx: since basically the start of time; it isn't common to dump an native elf using lisp. 17:56:51 mrcarrot: (t refers to *standard-output* or *standard-input* depending on context) 17:57:12 Bike: Ok! Thanks! 17:57:30 ams can't all compilers i mention create native executables? 17:57:32 frx: the common manner is to dump a world image, and then have some lisp implementation grok that, not dump a native binary 17:58:22 ams: what doesn't make that stand alone? 17:58:36 ehu: did i mention stand alone? 17:58:56 well, the result is ELF and it runs without libraries. 17:58:59 dumping core and reading it up again isn't dumping a native executable in my book. 17:59:04 so, why isn't it an elf image? 17:59:58 other applications store other stuff in resources attached to the application... (icons, images, ...) 18:00:13 ehu: cause you are not converting your sexps into native code, that is usually what is meant with native binaries. not dumping internal byte code representation into a file, then having a small byte code interpreter read it for you 18:00:29 ehu: that is nice, the question was "native binary" 18:00:41 ams: sbcl compiles into CPU opcodes. 18:00:47 that's native as can be. 18:00:50 ehu: that is nice, the question was a native binary. 18:01:13 sbcl doesn't use a native byte code representation. nor does ccl. 18:01:24 so, I don't get where the idea of it not being native comes from. 18:01:26 ehu: producing machine code is not the same as "native binary" 18:01:42 actually, the question was «I noticed that it cant create an executable, but it can create object files. is this normal of all lisp compilers?» 18:02:14 Bike: great! then the answer is that some implementations can and others can't :-) 18:02:15 -!- Jasko2 [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:02:24 most can't. 18:02:43 most just dump memory to disk 18:02:44 Jasko2 [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:02:52 I don't suppose you have an opinion on this, MediaWork. 18:03:15 in either case, it really doesn't matter 18:03:23 he probably just meant stand alone executable 18:03:53 -!- Joreji [~thomas@73-018.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 18:04:01 ams i am not familiar with an implementation that can't produce executable 18:04:15 yet you say most can't 18:04:42 ams: he didn't say ELF image, he said executable. 18:04:45 :-) 18:05:47 frx: cmucl, clisp, sbcl couldn't for a long long time, gcl can't either if i recall 18:06:15 couldn't for a long long time != can't 18:06:28 the java thingie can't, abcl or whatever it is called... dunno about mcl 18:07:34 clisp can't though iirc 18:08:35 abcl was never designed to... if you're using abcl you want to compile to the JVM 18:09:24 akcl as well. 18:09:27 clisp can produce stand alone executable 18:09:56 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@213.129.230.10] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:09:58 since when? 18:10:11 ams: sbcl and clisp can craete standalone executables. please don't babble about ancient history. 18:10:12 (and kcl in turn .. anything based on kcl really) 18:11:06 ECL can build them too IIRC 18:11:14 if you wanted a stand alone environment with clisp you'd dump core, and then compile clisp and load core 18:11:14 -!- agumonkey [~agu@183.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 18:11:15 though it isn't trivial 18:11:22 bruno was against stand-alone executables 18:12:02 any *portable* common lisp program can compile to a native executable, since all it takes is one implementation capable of doing that 18:12:25 someone tell ams that CLISP does have it. i'm probably on his ignore list, but that keeps him saying ignorant stuff :/ 18:12:36 oh jeez.. 18:12:59 then ALL common lisp implementations can do it, cause you can run any on a turing machine, and convert it into a program on a turing tape 18:13:09 I stand corrected, CLISP can create a standalone executable 18:13:10 ext:saveinitmem, the &key executable 18:13:17 shan't we get more silly? 18:13:53 I think arguing about minutiae in response to a newbie confused about which implementation they should use is about as silly as it gets 18:14:04 Bike sorry about the wording of my question 18:14:11 yes it can create object code3 18:14:13 It's not your fault. 18:14:18 ams: not more silly than what you just said, no. loading a lisp program in a different lisp implementation in order to compile to native code, however, does not strike me as silly 18:14:22 MediaWork: you didn't do anything wrong 18:14:55 joekarma: yeah it is silly since we are talking about what implementations can dump native execs 18:15:16 agumonkey [~agu@183.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 18:15:19 MediaWork see http://www.cliki.net/Creating%20Executables 18:15:26 MediaWork: also, i'll add to the vote that sbcl is the most popular one these days. though there are some others which have fans :) sbcl probably has the most support in #lisp 18:15:45 ehu: Bike: madnificent: thanks, ok good to know all those can make native executables 18:16:22 ams: I don't think it's silly at all. It's a salient point and an escape from boxed in thinking ("why are we arguing about this after all?") 18:16:24 so, no, clisp cannot produce one. 18:16:40 http://www.clisp.org/impnotes/image.html 18:16:40 please, someone tell ams to STFU 18:16:47 you dump core, and you use clisp to load it. 18:17:15 i quote "When non-NIL, the saved file will be a standalone executable" 18:17:38 (which is exactly what :executable does; it apends core to the end of clisp and then has clisp read it from there or whatever) 18:18:16 (which means that if you have clisp, and the core, that you have a standalone executable) 18:18:49 ams you have an odd definition what executable is. from clisp docs ":EXECUTABLE When non-NIL, the saved file will be a standalone executable. " 18:19:20 frx: do you know what clisp does? cause i do. 18:19:30 sigh 18:19:31 frx: it appends the core to the end of the elf, and has clisp load it from there 18:19:35 ams: you seem to be dragging us all into a huge, pointless argument based on semantics of the word "executable" and interpretations thereof 18:19:52 you could just as well do: cat clisp foo.core > foo; chmod +x foo 18:19:53 ./foo 18:19:55 and be happy 18:19:58 ams: I think multiple people already announced we're not interested in the fact that it's not "an ELF image in your definition" 18:20:00 ams so? is the result an executable? 18:20:06 frx: a native one? no. 18:20:07 a stand alone one even 18:20:15 -!- agumonkey [~agu@183.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 18:20:33 ams: we're not claiming they're ELF images. 18:20:38 now be done with it. 18:20:41 person who asked the question never used the word native as far as i can see 18:20:52 nor did he say ELF image 18:21:41 well then, maybe he asked if it could produce brainfuck code. 18:22:01 agumonkey [~agu@183.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 18:22:42 :) thanks, also didnt know there was such detail in a program being executable - I suppose the executable needs some standard libraries to link to and other stuff at the beginning, but I dont know what, just want it to run on the shell command line 18:22:50 -!- alama [~jessealam@stgt-5f72995e.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 18:23:21 MediaWork: yeah, most implementations can do that. 18:23:23 Being a total newbie, I noticed an important difference between clisp and sbcl: If you are going to use a random editor and then save a file, then load it into one of those, go for clisp! It is a bit slower, but much more userfriendly and having tab-complete. If you on the other hand pick emacs+slime, you get the userfriendliness too (tab-complete & co). 18:23:28 though it's not necessarily usual. 18:23:43 MediaWork: there are some tools which make running apps from the commanline easier. 18:24:08 alama [~jessealam@stgt-5f72995e.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 18:24:18 clisp in general is much nicer for anything, debugging facilities rock 18:24:21 luis [~luis@nhop.r42.eu] has joined #lisp 18:24:29 mrcarrot: I find clisp is a popular choice as a first implementation 18:25:13 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 18:25:18 joekarma: Without slime, I would probably been going for clisp out of this reason. Now I went with sbcl. 18:25:29 -!- teggi [~teggi@113.173.29.2] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:25:52 *ams* is still annoyed that sbcl doesn't have who-calls :/ 18:26:31 MediaWork: i think i need to mention scriptl and buildapp, but i'm not certain 18:26:48 -!- ZombieChicken [~weechat@108-222-196-145.lightspeed.nsvltn.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:27:11 MediaWork: cl-launch and scriptl, that sounds more like it 18:27:11 ams: huh? pretty sure it has that 18:27:21 incf joekarma 18:27:32 MediaWork: I quickly tried buildapp (and I begun just a couple of days ago to look at lisp for the very first time) and it was really easy to create a standalone executable. 18:27:36 -!- faust45 [~faust45@89.22.254.177] has quit [Quit: faust45] 18:27:55 joekarma: oh, no, yeah, confusing it with somthing els, erm, what was it called .. 18:28:21 who-calls-who i meant 18:28:22 Joreji [~thomas@73-018.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 18:29:23 what should who-calls-who do? 18:29:42 You mean slime-calls-who? 18:30:03 yup 18:30:04 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 18:30:57 -!- solaris [~solaris@95.69.178.93] has quit [Quit:    ] 18:31:11 Bike: what does that important function do? 18:32:04 Bike: never mind, needed to start slime to get the documentation on the function 18:32:04 mrcarrot: madnificent: why do these compilers rely on a standalone ehm other distro for linking ? 18:32:34 mrcarrot: madnificent: although I see no problem with it, ... 18:33:57 daniel1 [~danielmg@201.209.38.229] has joined #lisp 18:34:50 I did not understand that question... 18:34:58 MediaWork: sorry, i either don't get the question, or don't know the answer 18:35:54 fms [~fms@70-36-138-244.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 18:36:31 -!- daniel1 [~danielmg@201.209.38.229] has left #lisp 18:36:36 pnpuff [~aeiou@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 18:38:12 stlifey_ [~stlifey@183.46.15.86] has joined #lisp 18:39:48 -!- stlifey [~stlifey@116.26.22.225] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:40:43 GrayMagiker [~Steve@c-76-113-10-226.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:41:30 -!- Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:41:49 daniel1 [~danielmg@201.209.38.229] has joined #lisp 18:45:16 -!- cdidd [~cdidd@128-68-100-168.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:45:27 -!- daniel1 [~danielmg@201.209.38.229] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:45:51 daniel1 [~danielmg@201.209.38.229] has joined #lisp 18:46:09 Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 18:47:24 wyan [~wyan@fnords.info] has joined #lisp 18:47:38 -!- _veer [~veer@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:48:21 -!- daniel1 [~danielmg@201.209.38.229] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:48:36 daniel1 [~danielmg@201.209.38.229] has joined #lisp 18:49:59 _veer [~veer@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 18:51:01 My_Hearing [~Mon_Ouie@153.148-67-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 18:51:02 -!- My_Hearing [~Mon_Ouie@153.148-67-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Changing host] 18:51:02 My_Hearing [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 18:51:06 -!- Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has quit [Disconnected by services] 18:51:08 -!- My_Hearing is now known as Mon_Ouie 18:51:19 -!- wyan [~wyan@fnords.info] has left #lisp 18:52:05 fantazo [~fantazo@91-119-56-238.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 18:52:07 My_Hearing [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 18:53:28 so has anyone here tried to rip the html generating component out of core-server? was mentioned here: http://3ofcoins.net/2009/02/07/yaclml-in-pictures-part-i-html-generation/ 18:55:48 -!- hilbert [~Hilbert@adsl-89-217-212-152.adslplus.ch] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 18:56:25 joekarma: sexml does something similar. you probably want to look at it given the syntax you want it's in quicklisp, but check http://github.com/madnificent/SEXML/ 18:56:38 Slivka [~Slivka@31.40.53.196] has joined #lisp 18:56:49 cheers, thanks madnificent 18:57:16 hilbert [~Hilbert@adsl-89-217-212-152.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 18:57:19 joekarma: wait no, it's not exactly what the yaclml thing is. check it out first, then see if it suits you 18:57:47 joekarma: you may also care about #lispweb (low traffic though) 18:58:12 thanks, I'll make a habit of joining that room 18:59:11 faust45 [~faust45@89.22.254.177] has joined #lisp 19:00:26 -!- bitonic [~user@wavelan76.dynip.doc.ic.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:03:37 -!- Indecipherable [~Indeciphe@41.26.144.122] has quit [Quit: used jmIrc] 19:05:17 _d3f [~d3f@46.183.216.234] has joined #lisp 19:10:34 Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 19:14:43 -!- _veer [~veer@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:14:58 -!- faust45 [~faust45@89.22.254.177] 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-!- _veer [~veer@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:24:34 _veer [~veer@pool-173-65-234-164.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:24:34 -!- _veer [~veer@pool-173-65-234-164.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 19:24:34 _veer [~veer@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 19:27:22 -!- dtw [~dtw@pdpc/supporter/active/dtw] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 19:29:53 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@rrcs-184-75-115-252.nyc.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:30:51 -!- Indecipherable [~Indeciphe@41.13.56.180] has quit [Quit: used jmIrc] 19:33:30 rdqfdx [~rdqfdx@78.90.88.244] has joined #lisp 19:41:11 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 19:43:30 -!- sellout42 [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:45:09 DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@58.165.184.176] has joined #lisp 19:46:48 -!- _veer [~veer@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:49:26 _veer [~veer@pool-173-65-234-164.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:49:29 -!- _veer [~veer@pool-173-65-234-164.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 19:49:29 _veer [~veer@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 19:49:30 Indecipherable [~Indeciphe@41.13.8.248] has joined #lisp 19:51:31 oubiwann [~oubiwann@c-98-207-167-39.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:52:36 tsuru` [~charlie@adsl-98-87-51-207.bna.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 19:54:44 -!- answer_42 [~answer_42@gateway/tor-sasl/answer42/x-66983568] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.9] 19:55:08 -!- _veer [~veer@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:55:10 why would i get this error here http://pastie.org/5128822 19:56:41 _veer [~veer@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 19:57:08 <|3b|> because you haven't defined a function named ITER in that scope 20:01:26 stlifey [~stlifey@183.46.9.79] has joined #lisp 20:01:35 huh, it's a labels ?! 20:02:10 not a flet! 20:02:14 -!- Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:02:52 -!- stlifey_ [~stlifey@183.46.15.86] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:03:23 wbooze: indentation looks wrong, seems you're calling `iter` outside the `labels` body 20:03:25 wbooze: (iter init seq) isn't wrapped in the labels form 20:03:30 on line 6, iter does not appear to be within scope of labels 20:03:57 *mishoo* thinks ..oO( well OK, indentation is correct; your code is wrong. ) 20:04:04 yes :) 20:04:04 -!- Jasko2 [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:04:42 Jasko2 [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:04:47 dude! 20:05:25 ltbarcly1 [~ltbarcly@pool-71-116-76-50.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:06:28 here http://pastie.org/5128822 20:06:44 daniel [~danielmg@201.209.38.229] has joined #lisp 20:07:13 the second one isn't correct 20:07:14 -!- KingsKnighted [~quassel@c-174-52-149-13.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:07:32 add^_ [~add^_@m90-141-53-29.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 20:07:35 -!- daniel [~danielmg@201.209.38.229] has left #lisp 20:07:37 huh ? 20:07:45 it works here perfectly 20:08:11 is it wrapped in something else? 20:08:44 because there is no way that should work as is 20:09:22 unless he has the iter function defined globally somehow 20:09:40 pjb-v [~t@voyager.informatimago.com] has joined #lisp 20:09:48 fecking shet, it was working before now it doesn't ?! 20:10:30 your lisp image secretly reads freenode/#lisp and it noticed we said it shouldn't work, so it fixed itself :p 20:11:06 wbooze: https://gist.github.com/3969724 20:12:23 yea, but it wasn't working before with your's too, i have also tried that...it once works this way once the other way, i don't get it why i get this behaviour in my lisp image! 20:12:30 maybe secretly corrupts ? 20:12:37 or what maybe that ? 20:13:27 maybe there was a stray paren that caused it to evaluate only part of that defun when you C-c C-c'd it 20:13:39 i exactly tried joekarma's way before too, and it complained the same.... 20:14:01 unless i restarted lisp or got rid of the stale fasls etc.... 20:14:19 and i think slime does things too.... 20:14:31 secretly corrupts remotely! 20:14:31 I doubt this could be the cause, but there is an iter package that many quicklisp libraries depend on 20:15:03 don't see how the package namespace could cause any problems here, but thought I'd throw that out there 20:15:09 joekarma: that wouldn't interfere I guess unless he did (use-package :iter) 20:15:22 i don't use :iter ?! 20:15:31 it's not even loaded.... 20:15:36 that's not the problem.... 20:15:38 wbooze: restart image, start fresh, enter joekarma's example - should work. 20:16:13 curious, why are you implementing fold-left? 20:16:26 s0ber_ [~s0ber@114-36-242-168.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 20:17:18 learning! 20:17:30 going thru sicp now..... 20:17:32 ok, I figured 20:18:06 kmels [~kmels@p5B13E08B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:18:19 -!- Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:18:29 -!- s0ber [~s0ber@114-36-225-113.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:18:32 -!- s0ber_ is now known as s0ber 20:22:14 -!- jewel [~jewel@105-236-190-2.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:24:17 ISF [~ivan@201.82.139.24] has joined #lisp 20:24:51 -!- wormphle1m [~wormphleg@c-50-131-44-231.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:24:57 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:25:22 -!- ltbarcly1 [~ltbarcly@pool-71-116-76-50.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:25:35 joekarma|bot [~joekarma|@S0106602ad090cd68.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 20:32:10 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@lns-c10k-ft-02-t2-89-83-137-164.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:34:04 Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 20:35:19 -!- Sgeo [~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:35:51 ZombieChicken [~weechat@unaffiliated/forgottenwizard] has joined #lisp 20:37:23 -!- am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:43:03 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:43:37 wormphlegm [~wormphleg@c-50-131-44-231.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:45:58 -!- paul0 [~user@201.47.44.78.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:47:51 *drewc* will mention that paredit makes sure you _always_ insert proper sexps, and C-M-q can be the indentation properly, so if you eyes can read spaces/tabs as whitespace, problem solved 20:47:58 wbooze: ^ 20:48:15 Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 20:49:08 paul0 [~user@201.47.44.78.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has joined #lisp 20:51:58 tfb [~tfb@a1.norwich.yourspac.nsdsl.net] has joined #lisp 20:53:41 well, i was using that code from climacs, and indentation is no issue here, it was not indentation which caused the bug, rather a bug from a previous session maybe.....when restarting lisp image with clean env it errored on the before working ones too...so i edited accordingly now and they all work as intended... 20:54:05 nvm, thanks tho! 20:56:01 one thing tho, when doing inserts of various lisp forms in the clim-listener, all but the last form get ignored, i have to use progn around all in order to it to eat them all, what may cause this ? 20:56:11 *mstevens* finally gets around to installing paredit 20:56:30 s/to it/for it/ 20:57:30 it happens when i paste a slew of defun forms there, all get ignored until the last one which gets evaled.... 20:57:32 daniel [~danielmg@201.209.38.229] has joined #lisp 20:58:06 francogrex [~user@109.130.136.229] has joined #lisp 20:58:31 using progn solves it temporarily, but i don't know where to look, to see what causes that..... 20:58:32 -!- daniel [~danielmg@201.209.38.229] has left #lisp 20:58:35 well, it depends ... do all the forms really get ignored? so "CL-USER> (defvar *i* 1) (incf *i*) *i*" is an error? 20:59:16 yes, when i try to use the first for example it tells me that function is undefined in the listener....tho it was pasted in too..... 20:59:16 *francogrex* is disappointed with the clsql interface to Oracle. 20:59:28 heh 20:59:47 i think i found another of those subtle bugs maybe..... 21:00:06 cannot read 'long', even simple odbc connection can do that :( 21:00:06 or you could just resolve to paste in one form at a time. 21:00:39 yes i know..... 21:00:50 i do that too occasionally.... 21:02:36 so my thing is "The variable *I* is unbound." rather than 2? 21:04:54 Odyessus [~odyessus@chello080109062130.15.14.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 21:07:00 -!- Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:07:35 that does not seem right at all... I stopped using McClim a number of years ago (4 is it? 5 now?), so have no idea what has been done, if anything, to the listener, or if the listerner does (eval (last *input-form*)) ... which is completely wrong! :) 21:08:24 (eval (first (last *input-form*))) is probably a little more accurate ... 21:08:26 Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 21:08:57 -!- _d3f [~d3f@46.183.216.234] has quit [Quit: _d3f] 21:09:09 LAST has always screwed me up when I think it is LIST based and not CONS based :) 21:09:35 -!- Indecipherable [~Indeciphe@41.13.8.248] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:10:36 slime seems to evaluate all of them. 21:11:23 -!- rdqfdx [~rdqfdx@78.90.88.244] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:11:23 nowthing has been done on mcclim in the last 5-6 years. 21:11:57 or atleast not that i have seen, i've fixed a bunch of bbugs in mcclim but that is it 21:13:02 heh, you mean the sime repl does the right thing like every other REPL I use? amazing! :) 21:14:08 drewc: you know anyone working on mcclim? 21:15:11 nope, my personal friends all seem to work on SBCL, SLIME, ABCL and/or LIL 21:15:36 mm.. 21:16:55 beane did a fix last year, but other than that, since 2009 it has been stalled .. 21:18:29 There's another Lisp Beane who fixes mcclim? 21:19:26 Xach: no, only one of you darling 21:19:45 greetings folks: I'm searching for an editor like edwin (for CL indeed). thanks a lot! :) 21:19:49 *Xach* didn't fix anything in mcclim ever 21:20:07 (if any of course) 21:20:13 pnpuff: What is edwin like? 21:20:24 Fix a misdeclared dependency in clim-listener.asd 21:20:25 asdf.lisp requires things from file-types.lisp. Discovered by Zach Beane and Bart Botta. 21:20:26 :-) 21:20:35 hi for some reason in my slime\emacs., when try to call while function ...says its undefined...yet is is in documentation.ie I can get a desc of it any clues? 21:20:56 ams: Andreas Fuchs fixed it. 21:21:11 Xach: but you fixed it in asdf =) 21:21:21 oh and says its in `eval.c' 21:21:22 Xuerian [~Xuerian@23-25-122-114-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 21:21:26 ams: Incorrect. 21:21:28 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:21:33 can I have http://www.robomind.net/en/index.html in common lisp? 21:21:37 paultreselli: documentation of what? 21:21:37 well then the commit log is wrong. 21:21:43 anyway 21:22:10 Xach while function\macro 21:22:19 paultreselli: where is it documented? It is not a CL function or macro. 21:22:41 paultreselli: while is an emacs macro. 21:22:48 er, special form, even. 21:22:49 ok so then maybe thats why its undefined 21:23:03 some people define a similar macro for cl 21:23:05 paultreselli: What documentation are you using for reference? 21:23:51 the inbuilt one...C-h C-f for function info 21:24:03 like PAIP uses it.. 21:24:04 paultreselli: That is for emacs functions only 21:24:09 paultreselli: that shows emacs functions 21:24:11 paultreselli: Don't use it for CL code 21:24:20 OH... 21:24:40 well what should I use ...hyperspec? 21:25:03 paultreselli: that is a pretty good thing 21:25:08 paultreselli: yep. try C-c C-d h, even 21:25:14 paultreselli: i look stuff in the hyperspec with http://l1sp.org/ sometimes 21:26:27 foog [~user@oh-71-54-94-255.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 21:26:30 hello 21:26:35 ok...now since while is not available and I dont know how to macro yet...is there a way to use loop such that it exits on condition? the doc of loop is large... 21:26:55 I want to bascially do a while loop 21:26:57 (loop while condition ...) 21:27:46 paultreselli: (loop while do ) 21:27:50 oh ok so those CAPPED words are actuel loop parameters 21:28:33 justinmcp [~justinmcp@ppp118-208-20-150.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 21:28:40 I was sorta confused....but makes sense now cuz then they are 'atoms' of loop ,right? 21:28:48 paultreselli: there is a terminology and typographic chapter in the hyperspec 21:29:25 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:29:28 dim: sure you can! first, learn programming, then learn lisp, then get hired by the company that produces it, and add common lisp. Easy 21:29:35 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.136.229] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:29:43 mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has joined #lisp 21:29:44 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has quit [Changing host] 21:29:44 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 21:30:06 drewc: I would like to have the end result before my kids ask me about learning programming, any shortcut? :) 21:30:23 btw I didn't mean that very product, something equivalent would be good, preferably open source 21:30:26 ok thanks...RTFM got it. ;) thanks tho, you helped. 21:32:20 dim: http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/ + slime + sbcl ... that is a shortcut for sure. 21:32:34 or hell, if you prefer games, Land of Lisp. 21:33:09 LoL... 21:33:11 haha 21:33:12 it seems like land of lisp and the others suggestions are all still about "textual things", nothing much polished on the graphics side 21:33:19 of course, learning programming and learning lisp are completely different things. 21:33:22 can't wait to grok that 21:33:40 I'd want a lisp environment that draws things on screen, suitable for a 5 or 6 years old 21:33:53 so, you want your youths to learn open-gl rather then Common Lisp? 21:34:01 I think lisps are the best target for learning a first programming language 21:34:09 or GTK, or LTK, or QT ... 21:34:45 exactly my point, I want something like robomind where you only have some high level primitives to play with, so that you don't have to learn about all that from the beginning 21:34:50 logo? 21:35:00 robomind is a modern logo apparently 21:35:04 -!- oubiwann [~oubiwann@c-98-207-167-39.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:35:07 logo is not a lisp though 21:35:11 Seems like a better question for the Scala community than the Lisp community. 21:35:21 dim....Imho lisp is likely not a good first language...but any other 'interpreted' language is prolly a good choice...You might wanna try ALICE 21:35:39 its prep for Java but it teaches OOP and is fun as hell 21:35:44 no I think compiling is a good thing when learning, I have a french article that explains that well 21:35:50 heh ... well you and I may differ on that, but then again, I like Gopher for the first language and think that lisp is not a language at all ... but then again, I learned how to prgram in BASIC on a PET, so what do I know. 21:36:13 if you can read french, try http://www.laurentbloch.org/spip.php?article48 21:36:31 -!- tfb [~tfb@a1.norwich.yourspac.nsdsl.net] has quit [Quit: gone] 21:36:32 and I completely disagree with what paultreselli is saying. 21:37:07 I learned to program with pencil and paper in a classroom, then we did some pascal and I did some basic, I would much prefer not to have to deal with that much of a syntax when learning. Enters lisp. 21:37:13 interpreted vs compiled langs ... that does not make any sense about why to choose a lang as the first ... imo 21:37:57 drewc: except that you need to understand the difference between static code you're writing and active/dynamic processes running that code 21:38:18 and compiling can make understanding that easier, as there's an explicit step 21:38:39 even if that step is C-M-x :) 21:38:56 because Common Lisp only has an infinite number of potential syntaxes ... so not very much involved at all! 21:39:02 L-o-l :) 21:39:29 Ops ... L-O-l ! 21:40:11 dim: you have to learn that to learn how to program? you and I have some different ideas there then. 21:40:26 drewc: I can see that we have different ideas yes 21:41:04 logo is not a lisp though <-- it was designed as one, at least 21:41:52 -!- pnpuff [~aeiou@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has quit [Quit: Bye.] 21:41:53 then again. C was the fourth language I used, and Turing was the third, so what do i know about lisp, which is like my 10th or 20th language, or compiling/interpretation, because CL has both ... 21:41:54 LoL 21:42:15 you all made some valid points 21:43:03 you seem to be saying you don't know so that I build trust into your arguments apparently... well 21:43:13 and lol will always stand for lisp-on-lines, because I released that lib a long time before Land of Lisp came out! :D 21:44:17 ok so we can't meme LolCatz reading LoL? 21:45:04 drewc: was it before Let Over Lambda? 21:45:10 dim : nope, I have only been a programing prof for roughly 6 months in '98 or so, so have not taught someone how to program at all since then.... I would not trust my argumentss at all, simply because I have not stated them yet 21:45:20 dlowe: one hell of a long time before. 21:45:40 oh it's all about trolling them. I'll catchup with my sleep then, see you around :) 21:46:19 did you just insult me by calling me a troll? 21:46:59 *drewc* is now very confused indeed... 21:47:02 ok I wanna touch on this: learning a Language is one thing...learning how program is more about LOGIC and thinking about ways to make 'thought processes that we take for granted' explicit 21:47:03 I think dim meant that teaching students is all about trolling your students? 21:47:08 drewc: not sure I would call it "one hell of a hong time" :) 21:47:17 *long 21:47:21 -!- foog [~user@oh-71-54-94-255.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:47:22 Bike: ah, well, 21:47:30 that makes more sense! :) 21:47:42 I like to think programming is more about logistics than logic 21:47:46 drewc: I don't know any place where calling someone a troll is an insult, if here is such a place then please accept my excuses 21:47:56 dlowe: well, a long time for me! :) 21:48:12 The explicit part is hard...cuz most people don;t have to "think" about sorting a list of numbers...but only until one has to ver vatim describe the steps to do so is it a challenge 21:48:31 you could always do the old pb&j game. 21:48:33 on the other hand, if you're involving yourself in a conversation then say you've not stated any argument at all yet, what are you doing apart from trolling? 21:48:34 dim: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Billy_Goats_Gruff 21:48:53 it might be that I'm too tired even for IRC, though 21:48:56 dim: not arguing? 21:49:18 at this point, I am simply going to shut the fuck up and not say anything at all. 21:49:43 drewc: most people still think you're awesome 21:49:53 my fault for caring about such things! 21:49:55 well, most people that count, at least 21:50:05 dlowe: phew! :D 21:50:20 igiveup-waaaah! 21:50:49 programming is just concrete math,really 21:50:49 paultreselli: it's pretty easy to make a slow sorting program. Making it efficient is the tricky part. 21:50:53 and it is tricky. 21:51:19 well...dlowe true 21:51:26 *dim* learns never to use troll again on #lisp, and would insist on excusing himself but refrains in case that's also a bad behavior to state that kind of things more than one. Never knows. Damned, need some sleep. 21:51:37 you say "just concrete math", but concrete math is rather involved! 21:52:14 cuz there is variance in how people approach a problem...not withstanding people being "programmed" to think a certain way 21:52:38 we're all trained to think a certain way 21:53:41 heh ... I live on a ferrocement sailboat, and just spent the last week turning a concrete math paper into sql/postmodern code ... and knows that programming an math are involved, but not very much related ;) 21:53:50 so its quite possible and very likely that what we do naturally, or the "natural" approach to a problem my not be computationally the most efficient 21:54:31 -!- joekarma|bot [~joekarma|@S0106602ad090cd68.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:54:32 BimmyJones [~hercules@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 21:55:03 -!- BimmyJones [~hercules@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 21:55:31 so ..I guess what I'm saying is Intuitive does not necessarily mean optimal...tho most modern langs try to allow for intuitive programming to a greater degree,whilst still producing fast code 21:56:01 well, what I do 'naturally' for computer programming depends on if it is supposed to be performant or not ... 21:57:09 And if we look to history, early ideas that formed the framework for modern calculus was based on intuitive ( still quite insightful. and thoughtful ) ...bus only to be "proved" much later 21:58:39 so, I may not be included in the 'we' there ... but my instinct for comp prog is to follow the spec and produce the code based on that. And I usually come up with the spec myself, sometime as part of the coding process 21:58:58 right 21:59:47 -!- alama [~jessealam@stgt-5f72995e.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 21:59:48 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f7564ac.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 21:59:55 well I think where comp sci and math, pure math...diverge..is when it comes to the mindset of how problems are solved 22:00:25 and comp sci is not programming... so there is divergence there as well. 22:00:59 mathematicians are concerned with theory and what's possible...proving things that may not even be constructable in our universe 22:01:04 -!- joekarma [~joekarma@S0106602ad090cd68.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: joekarma] 22:01:33 and scientists are not? 22:01:38 compsci is not p...right...programming is USED in the study of compsci ideas 22:01:40 paultreselli: computers are only big calculators... 22:02:03 ehu: can be small as well! :P 22:02:24 paultreselli: there's no need for them to do calculate things which are possible in our universe. 22:02:27 but cSci is all about proving that problems have solutions and can be computed 22:02:30 drewc: heh. 22:02:57 *drewc* is looking at his google nexus one phone that is smaller than his calc yet more powerful then the p166 he payed 5k for in '95 22:03:30 mathematicians don;t really care about if the problem can be solved, but that the solution exists,,,ir the property of some things exists 22:03:37 drewc: get the same feeling when looking at my HTC One X (quad core 1,5Ghz!) 22:03:46 -!- theBlackDragon [~dragon@77.109.112.42] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:03:58 theBlackDragon [~dragon@77.109.112.42] has joined #lisp 22:04:19 joekarma [~joekarma@S0106602ad090cd68.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 22:05:41 AeroNotix [~xeno@aazx99.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 22:07:00 paultreselli: no ... it is not ... for example : what is the value of PI? can a standard computer possibly calculate it _in known time/space_ ? but there is a solution, and circles do exist and have measurements ... so can be computed ... but only as far as the FLOAT goes for PI :) 22:07:24 *drewc* has PI in his head because his two rasberry PI's are sitting in his mailbox 22:07:25 pi is a computable real. 22:07:51 a better example might be a nonsemicomputable real, though I can't think of any. 22:09:04 sorry, but how is PI computabe on standard computers _in known 22:09:06 time/space_ 22:09:19 ? I would like to know! :) 22:09:26 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@58.165.184.176] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:09:27 The mathematical definition of "computable real". 22:09:49 DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@58.165.184.176] has joined #lisp 22:10:12 Obviously it doesn't have a rational value, if that's what you mean. 22:10:22 LiamH [~healy@pool-173-73-131-126.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:11:41 ah, fair enough, we can compute a number that is close to PI and use it as PI, but it is not PI ! 22:11:46 -!- Odyessus [~odyessus@chello080109062130.15.14.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi] 22:12:43 We could represent numbers in base-pi. Then pi = 1. You can even do computation like that, cos(1) = -.33... whatever. 22:13:03 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.39.237] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:14:01 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@58.165.184.176] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:14:59 sure, we can represent number as a base the we call PI, but in computers, it is not PI . PI is a transcendental number IIRC 22:16:23 Meaning it's not the root of an algebraic equation, so what? 22:16:23 oubiwann [~oubiwann@c-98-207-167-39.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:16:46 not algebraic at all... I might be somewhat confused as to what we are talking about. 22:17:08 DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@58.165.184.176] has joined #lisp 22:18:11 i suppose I'm trying to say that pi isn't a good example of nonconstructive mathematics. 22:18:20 -!- gffa [~unknown@unaffiliated/gffa] has quit [Quit: sleep] 22:18:21 PI is not a computable number, I thought we were talking about computers... maybe my own personal "four emacs open, three of which are CL ide's" has me thinking about programming 22:18:50 you know of the computable-reals cl package? it does computable reals. 22:18:53 -!- LiamH [~healy@pool-173-73-131-126.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:18:56 I will go over the #math and discuss LISP 22:19:03 :) 22:19:07 joekarma|bot [~joekarma|@S0106602ad090cd68.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 22:19:16 yeah, and a real is not a 'real' 22:20:06 the real number that cuts off PI to a certain decimal place is not PI, imo. 22:21:14 -!- PuercoPop [~user@190.41.173.174] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:21:19 no, it would be an approximation. but that's not how computable reals work. they're an interesting math thing. 22:21:29 *drewc* has spent like 75 hours coding lisp this week, so his head may indeed be completely off of the real world. 22:22:59 yes, I know about real numbers ... and hell, since this is #lisp, CL-USER> pi 22:23:01 3.141592653589793d0 22:23:23 a double? 22:23:55 http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/v_pi.htm 22:24:12 an approximation, yes... 22:24:55 (defconstant bible:pi 3) 22:25:26 (defconstant drewc:pi 'yay?) 22:25:26 -!- Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-71-191-38-245.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:25:58 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.96.94] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:25:58 in base pi, pi = 10. 22:26:26 oops. yes. 22:27:14 and, what is e using base PI? 22:27:31 or, for that matter, ... 22:27:34 *drewc* googles 22:27:41 drewc: why do you have multiple emacs sessions open? why not have one through emacs-server 22:28:00 drewc: also, long time no see 22:28:02 http://www.quora.com/Is-it-possible-to-count-in-base-pi 22:28:54 uncountably infinitely many expansions, how exciting. 22:29:12 -!- Guest62164 is now known as hugod 22:29:14 madnificent: because I have a ./start-emacs for every version of apps that I develop for a living, with a different config, and sometimes different indentation. 22:29:14 Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-71-191-38-245.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:30:04 drewc: nooooo, you were probable the hacker that was supposed to make it easy to run multiple slimes next to each other in one emacs session, and you did it wrong. i get it though, it can make sense. 22:30:20 wen [~wen-hsin@89-160-182-44.du.xdsl.is] has joined #lisp 22:30:26 and I also run an emacs-server, on a notebook/tablet, that is my primary environemt. 22:30:29 hi 22:30:38 Ive just been writing my first lisp program 22:30:43 it does what I wanted it to do, 22:31:01 that is determine if a number input from keyboard is odd or even 22:31:05 :) simple, 22:31:36 madnificent: really? like i do in my primary emacs and have done for 8 years at this point? what could the problems possibly be that would make me use different emacs, on different desktops, for different applications? 22:31:45 ;) 22:31:56 i kinda see where drec is going 22:32:49 the irrationality issue bugs alot of people...yes pi is real...it's compuation is arbitrary 22:32:52 wen: (oddp (read)) 22:33:19 drewc, thanks! 22:33:38 saw that one in a cheat sheet, but I ran into a problem with a more advance read routine 22:33:44 see this pastebin 22:33:47 there is a real number that share a name with the constant PI, there is indeed. 22:33:48 http://pastebin.com/dpYJSPt5 22:34:14 if we had an inf amnt of time we could calculate the nth digit in pi...but we would never "finish" ...bust just cuz we dont "finish" the race doesnt mean we arent getting some where...so yes PI os computable Re 22:34:53 wen: You could just loop. 22:34:54 drewc, Im using sbcl, but this routine fails to print the "Please enter a number line" until I actually enter a number... 22:35:02 wen: force-output 22:35:27 Bike, ehm, ok, that would be good, not my code by the way, but I think it should work right? 22:35:49 Bike, it should actually print "Hey enter a number" first, then allow me to enter number 22:35:55 is this a compiler issue? 22:36:04 (progn (print "enter!:") (oddp (read))) does not work? 22:36:13 wen: output may be buffered. you may need to call force-output or something to get output actually to the screen. 22:36:52 drewc: not sure what you're pointing at. running multiple slime sessions isn't as painless as i'd want it to be. that was it :) 22:36:53 oh, of course, the buffering thingie 22:36:56 Bike, oh, hmmm... ok I'll google that 22:37:14 paultreselli: well the interesting thing about computable numbers is that most real numbers aren't computable. 22:37:22 drewc, Bike , ok so buffering thingy is known issue among lispers 22:37:27 good to know 22:37:34 intended, rather than an issue, even 22:37:40 ok 22:37:43 :) 22:37:49 oh and punee thAKS FOR CLARIFYING...I was gonna mention that. for any base >= 2 base = 10 22:37:52 and kinda compiler dependent then also? 22:38:21 I think implementations can choose how they do buffering if at all, yes. 22:38:51 Bike: thanks Cantor for that one 22:38:56 No. 22:38:59 dnolen [~user@cpe-74-64-61-245.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:39:09 Cantor didn't do anything with computability. 22:39:20 he proved that there are infinitely many more irrationals than rational 22:39:36 I'm not talking about rationality. 22:39:51 madnificent: try opening two branches of the same app, say PROD and DEVEL ... in the same emacs, and then make sure you pick the right file and the right repl because you do not like to M- , and then you may start thinking that the whole ./start-emacs thing should be a part of the application (or the app/lib/ dir) and that may prevent the issue you just spent a while solving :) 22:40:13 oh right ,computable 22:40:57 LiamH [~healy@pool-173-73-131-126.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:41:22 and, strangely enough, the new app that I am working on came with its own start-emacs.sh ... so others do the same thing, by the same name! 22:42:59 -!- agumonkey [~agu@183.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:44:33 Bike, wen , ioi, that was fun, 22:44:39 -!- paultreselli [~paul@ool-45703813.dyn.optonline.net] has left #lisp 22:44:46 found out I needed (finish-output nil) 22:44:47 wen: really, one should not be using READ for input and using the REPL is the command, but if you have to, then learning about streams is either important, or simply force-output can work as well. 22:45:06 or finish- even 22:45:39 drewc, wen, Bike , is my code now ANSI compliant? 22:46:48 hiro3 [~hiro@p210079202073.cnh.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 22:47:10 bitonic [~user@5e09a749.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 22:50:12 drewc: wait, i understand that part. i thought you were saying that it all worked fine. what i was saying initially was: you shouldn't have built that solution, you should have built one that integrates perfectly in one emacs session. if you'd have done that, then my life would've been easier. 22:50:42 drewc: i don't see the problem with M- yet though. 22:50:55 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@91-119-56-238.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:52:22 foreignFunction [~niksaak@94.27.88.110] has joined #lisp 22:52:37 yeah, i used to see the issue with that sort of thing, and the focus-follows-pointer is something I still use, but I learned a long time ago that can act as Meta for emacs, and now M- is not an issue :P 22:53:01 -!- stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-018-176.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:54:34 And I do wish that it could all be either a single emacs session/desktop using thing on an emacs-server, it just has not worked out that way. 22:56:30 -!- punee [~punee@213-245-106-105.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Quit: punee] 22:56:47 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 22:57:54 FWIW, I have win32 installed and it is run via KVM or VirtualBox on my laptops, and I wish I could use WINE properly so I did not have to alt-tab my way between OSs... is that an issue with alt-tab? hrm.... 22:57:56 drewc: offtopic, but i tend to press C- and M- wich the palm of my hand. it works well on bigger/older keyboards and reduces stress significantly. 23:00:04 -!- Vivitron [~Vivitron@pool-98-110-213-33.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:00:05 heh .. interesting. I hit Alt with my thumb, and generall C- is CapsLk, so my left pinky 23:00:15 generally* 23:00:45 drewc: wow! that's indeed a useful key remapping. 23:00:59 I always find ctrl hard to reach. 23:01:51 yeah, having C- on home row is ideal, and I have never used capslk save for typewriters back in the day 23:02:07 -!- Daisy [~Daisy@109.58.122.90.bredband.tre.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:02:13 and, in my mind, it is the opposite of Enter 23:02:51 BimmyJones [~hercules@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 23:02:55 -!- BimmyJones [~hercules@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 23:02:55 I rarely use capslock eithre. 23:02:57 either. 23:03:48 PuercoPop [~user@190.232.84.165] has joined #lisp 23:06:48 and, i used to have a keyboard on my Sun box that had the Ctrl there, and of of the first optical mice... that was about the time that I starting loving thinkpad keyboards with the pointer control on home row as well. 23:08:56 (because the optical mouse needed an aluminum mousepad that had to be that mousepad, and I could never seem to find it when I wanted to log in to the terminal directly) 23:09:32 clariprincess [~princesit@190.73.232.8] has joined #lisp 23:10:21 and X was a lot of fun on a huge monitor turned portrait style that was B&W only but hig res 23:11:05 *drewc* is finished being offtopic and apologizes in advance for his IRCing 23:12:03 some_user [~user@d83-183-51-82.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 23:14:30 drakma supposedly supports chunked encoding but I can't for my life figure out how to make a request where the reply is chunked... Does anyone have any idea how I can do that? I found a small mention about it in the docs but other than that I can't figure it out 23:14:40 -!- Joreji [~thomas@73-018.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:15:19 -!- joekarma [~joekarma@S0106602ad090cd68.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: joekarma] 23:15:31 -!- add^_ [~add^_@m90-141-53-29.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: add^_] 23:16:38 sellout42 [~Adium@65.101.242.214] has joined #lisp 23:22:27 some_user: the server is the sole decider of chunkiness 23:22:38 some_user: one good way to get a chunked response is to find a server that responds with chunked all the time 23:22:49 some_user: amazon.com used to be a server like that and might be still 23:23:04 -!- wen [~wen-hsin@89-160-182-44.du.xdsl.is] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:26:17 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-161-162.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:26:19 Xach: Alright, I thought it was a combination between the HTTP request and the server 23:27:33 some_user: if the client says it understands http/1.1, the server may at its discretion use the chunked encoding 23:29:44 Xach: Just did a request to Amazon, got (:transfer-encoding . "chunked"), so I guess the response was chunked. Surely there must be a way for me to use the already received packets before I've gotten the full response, right? 23:30:12 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A3A46.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 23:30:33 -!- _veer [~veer@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:30:39 Not sure how much you know about Drakma, I just can't find the revelant documentation unfortunately... 23:31:16 some_user: I'm not sure. You might get to handle it bit by bit if you request a stream. 23:31:28 some_user: http://weitz.de/drakma/ ? 23:31:46 http://weitz.de/drakma/#want-stream might do it, or might not 23:31:55 _veer [~veer@pool-173-65-234-164.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:31:56 -!- _veer [~veer@pool-173-65-234-164.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 23:31:56 _veer [~veer@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 23:32:02 agumonkey [~agu@183.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 23:32:41 *Xach* wrote his own client for quicklisp 23:33:36 ehu: Indeed. Xach: That is what I suspect will do it, gonna go and investigate further 23:37:12 pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has joined #lisp 23:41:05 -!- frx [~yhiselamu@lap.ee] has quit [Quit: #yhiselamu | www.yhiselamu.ee (EOF)] 23:44:11 alama [~jessealam@stgt-5f72995e.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 23:46:10 -!- ehu [ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:51:16 -!- ISF [~ivan@201.82.139.24] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:52:08 -!- oubiwann [~oubiwann@c-98-207-167-39.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:55:23 -!- sellout42 [~Adium@65.101.242.214] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:57:20 cornihilio [~user@p6fd90806.tokynt01.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 23:59:13 PCChris [~PCChris@dhcp-199-74-100-55.res-hall.northwestern.edu] has joined #lisp 23:59:55 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp