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Forking projects that have (lisp-unit:run-tests), etc., at the top-level to fix the problem and submit pull requests. 01:07:54 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 01:09:58 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 01:10:28 ThomasH`: http://git.b9.com/clsql.git 01:11:32 Xach: Oh, I was just looking on github. I still have the list of projects affected by the interface change. If I post it to quicklisp-devel, could you reply with the source repository? 01:12:15 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 01:13:29 ThomasH`: see https://github.com/quicklisp/quicklisp-projects 01:14:30 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 01:14:35 quazimodo [~quazimodo@d110-33-249-98.bla801.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 01:15:00 doomlord [~ceti331@host81-157-102-115.range81-157.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 01:18:34 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:21:03 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 01:25:06 kanru` [~kanru@118-163-10-190.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 01:26:02 christophergonza [~user@c-24-5-197-7.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:26:15 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:27:47 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 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[tordek@supporter.blinkenshell.org] has joined #lisp 02:18:41 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 02:22:54 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:25:05 -!- hiro3 [~hiro@p210079202073.cnh.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:25:24 -!- dabd [~dabd@a95-93-205-168.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:25:24 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 02:28:52 -!- vwvwvwv [~vwvwvwv@adsl-75-51-66-181.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:29:34 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:30:22 -!- ace4016 is now known as DrPhil 02:30:32 -!- DrPhil is now known as ace4016 02:32:05 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 02:32:44 superflit_ [~superflit@65-128-88-1.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 02:34:17 -!- mjs2600 [~mjs2600@user-0c999kc.cable.mindspring.com] has 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03:13:49 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:15:58 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 03:17:40 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-169-99.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 03:20:07 -!- cornihilio [~user@nfmv001171014.uqw.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:20:24 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:21:19 noige [~jarrod@li457-97.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 03:21:29 Anyone in here using caveman? 03:22:05 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-169-99.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:22:28 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 03:22:54 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-169-99.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 03:24:00 -!- sambio [~sambio@190.57.227.109] has quit [] 03:24:20 -!- Buglouse [~Buglouse@unaffiliated/Buglouse] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:26:48 -!- jleija [~jleija@50.8.41.50] has quit [Quit: leaving] 03:26:53 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 03:28:43 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@50-196-148-102-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 03:28:59 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 03:29:01 -!- Vicfred [~Grothendi@189.228.17.196] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:29:08 -!- estefani [~canaima@190.200.20.138] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:29:08 kpreid [~kpreid@50-196-148-102-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 03:29:32 estefani [~canaima@190.200.20.138] has joined #lisp 03:30:12 -!- phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 03:30:43 -!- catmtking [~catmtking@108-224-122-111.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: catmtking] 03:31:05 -!- cataska [~cataska@210.64.6.233] has quit [Quit: leaving] 03:33:53 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:34:55 Codynyx [~cody@c-75-72-25-106.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:34:58 noige: the Flinstones ;) 03:35:33 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 03:36:02 cataska [~cataska@210.64.6.233] has joined #lisp 03:40:10 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 03:42:33 cornihilio [~user@nfmv001171014.uqw.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 03:43:09 cnl [~pony@91.203.66.41] has joined #lisp 03:44:12 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 03:48:13 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 03:48:19 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:48:59 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-169-99.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: none] 03:50:34 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 03:54:18 -!- estefani [~canaima@190.200.20.138] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:55:00 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 03:57:13 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 03:59:42 -!- mjs2600 [~mjs2600@user-0c999kc.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:00:39 superflit: yeah :) also the web framework https://github.com/fukamachi/caveman 04:01:15 -!- phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:01:40 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:03:46 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 04:03:50 -!- paul0`` [~user@177.132.100.212] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 04:07:02 paul0 [~user@177.132.100.212] has joined #lisp 04:08:07 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:10:10 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 04:10:11 -!- Jubb [~ghost@pool-108-28-0-134.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:14:40 -!- lggr 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[~segmond@99.150.136.169] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:50:53 quazimodo [~quazimodo@c122-106-147-75.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 04:51:08 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 04:51:50 -!- piko [~piko@ip4-83-240-108-205.cust.nbox.cz] has quit [Client Quit] 04:55:32 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 04:56:16 wow, weblocks is cool 04:56:24 I don't understand everything about it 04:56:29 but it is really neat 04:56:37 -!- noige [~jarrod@li457-97.members.linode.com] has left #lisp 04:56:49 -!- riccardo [~riccardo@host48-164-dynamic.19-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Sto andando via] 04:59:56 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 05:01:49 -!- cornihilio [~user@nfmv001171014.uqw.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 05:04:18 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:05:14 attila_lendvai 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[~seana11@pool-71-191-38-245.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:32:48 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 05:36:13 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 05:37:30 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 05:39:55 -!- AlbireoX [~AlbireoX@76.78.168.158] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:40:25 AlbireoX [~AlbireoX@76.78.168.158] has joined #lisp 05:40:49 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 05:40:54 -!- cfy` [~cfy@218.75.27.172] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:41:04 -!- bjorkintosh [~bjork@ip68-13-229-200.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:41:37 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 05:42:23 -!- harish [harish@nat/redhat/x-vvwphbmhtmwqkftx] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:44:44 -!- KDr2 [~KDr2@221.219.119.247] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:45:01 -!- AlbireoX [~AlbireoX@76.78.168.158] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:46:03 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:46:14 -!- em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:47:19 is there something like Perls qw(), eg. with cl-interpol? qw(a b c) => (list "a" "b" "c")? 05:47:59 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 05:48:45 vwvwvwv_ [~vwvwvwv@adsl-75-51-76-110.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:49:22 -!- vwvwvwv_ [~vwvwvwv@adsl-75-51-76-110.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:49:41 BountyX [~andrew@76.14.65.229] has joined #lisp 05:49:43 -!- vwvwvwv [~vwvwvwv@adsl-75-51-66-181.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:49:48 -!- pspace [~andrew@76.14.65.229] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:52:22 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:52:45 benny 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[~bruce@cpe-066-057-037-087.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 06:55:01 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:55:32 -!- paolo_m [~user@2-228-95-110.ip190.fastwebnet.it] has left #lisp 06:55:48 -!- ehu [~ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:56:14 -!- brucemwhealtonjr [~bruce@cpe-066-057-037-087.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:56:35 brucemwhealtonjr [~bruce@cpe-066-057-037-087.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 06:56:36 kdas__ [~kdas@114.143.165.131] has joined #lisp 06:56:48 -!- Praise [~Fat@unaffiliated/praise] has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.] 06:56:55 Praise [~Fat@unaffiliated/praise] has joined #lisp 06:57:14 fantazo [~fantazo@91-119-123-199.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 06:59:05 -!- brucemwhealtonjr [~bruce@cpe-066-057-037-087.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:59:22 brucemwhealtonjr [~bruce@cpe-066-057-037-087.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 06:59:48 -!- brucemwhealtonjr [~bruce@cpe-066-057-037-087.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:59:59 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 07:00:09 brucemwhealtonjr [~bruce@cpe-066-057-037-087.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 07:00:38 -!- brucemwhealtonjr [~bruce@cpe-066-057-037-087.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:00:57 brucemwhealtonjr [~bruce@cpe-066-057-037-087.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 07:01:18 -!- brucemwhealtonjr [~bruce@cpe-066-057-037-087.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:01:37 brucemwhealtonjr [~bruce@cpe-066-057-037-087.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 07:01:37 following the directions in the book I have: 07:01:56 -!- brucemwhealtonjr [~bruce@cpe-066-057-037-087.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:02:17 brucemwhealtonjr [~bruce@cpe-066-057-037-087.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 07:02:17 it tells me in the REPL that *db* is not defined when I try to run add-record 07:02:44 and have you defined *db*? 07:02:51 Vicfred [~Grothendi@189.228.17.196] has joined #lisp 07:03:07 "the book"? 07:03:31 last message we got before you came back was: following the directions in the book I have: 07:04:00 -!- Praise [~Fat@unaffiliated/praise] has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.] 07:04:06 Praise- [~Fat@unaffiliated/praise] has joined #lisp 07:04:12 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:04:32 -!- jdz [~jdz@85.254.212.248] has quit [Quit: Byebye.] 07:06:23 how controversal is the let over lambda book' 07:06:26 fiveop [~fiveop@dslb-094-218-037-195.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 07:06:51 -!- brucemwhealtonjr [~bruce@cpe-066-057-037-087.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:07:00 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 07:07:06 reactormonk: very controversial 07:08:02 H4ns, but it's informative, I have to admit. 07:08:05 jdz [~jdz@85.254.212.248] has joined #lisp 07:08:48 -!- Praise- [~Fat@unaffiliated/praise] has quit [Client Quit] 07:08:48 Praise [~Fat@unaffiliated/praise] has joined #lisp 07:09:19 reactormonk: if you think so? i could not get past the bad writing. 07:09:45 Alice3 [~Alice@cpc3-grim12-0-0-cust856.12-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 07:10:09 H4ns, yep, the writing is not scientific by any means. 07:11:07 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:11:07 -!- em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:11:13 reactormonk: i'm not expecting scientific, really. but i dislike bold claims, and i dislike when an author repeatedly says that what he writes depends on conclusions he drew from another controversial book. 07:12:12 reactormonk: but that's just me. i'm not authoritative to judge the book beyond my failed attempt to read it, but it is surely controversial :) 07:13:32 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 07:13:36 H4ns, from my own experience, the more you feel you're wrong, the more rigorous you'll defend your point ;-) 07:14:52 reactormonk: there could be some truth in that. sometimes, there is genius behind failed attempts to establish radical new ideas, though. given that, i'll restrict my critique to formal aspects. 07:18:11 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:19:02 justinmcp [~justinmcp@ppp118-208-139-170.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:22:18 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 07:22:20 mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.99.6] has joined #lisp 07:22:22 -!- kdas__ is now known as kushal 07:22:32 -!- kushal [~kdas@114.143.165.131] has quit [Changing host] 07:22:32 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 07:23:22 -!- Praise [~Fat@unaffiliated/praise] has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.] 07:23:29 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07:54:08 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:55:50 justinmcp [~justinmcp@ppp118-208-139-170.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:56:29 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 07:57:38 can I defvar a variable in a scope - aka require lazy dereference of the symbol? 07:59:25 "lazy dereference"? You can scope dynamic variables, if that's what you mean 08:00:27 varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 08:00:41 not sure quite what you mean, but you can (let ((*x* 5)) (declare (special *x*)) (do-things-with-*x*) 08:00:52 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 08:00:54 joekarma, yep, that 08:01:06 ) 08:01:23 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-50-238.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 08:01:28 <|3b|`> you can also (defvar *x*) and not provide a global value 08:01:28 <|3b|`> 08:01:39 that's dynamic scope, not laziness, just so you know. 08:01:47 em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 08:01:58 -!- moore33 [~moore@ABordeaux-153-1-14-196.w92-146.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 08:02:09 -!- |3b|` is now known as |3b| 08:03:16 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 08:05:00 Bike, Bike (defvar *x* 1) (funcall (let ((*x* 5)) (lambda () *x*))) vs. (funcall (let ((x 5)) (lambda () x))) 08:05:58 <|3b|> reactormonk: right, dynamic scope vs lexical scope 08:07:24 |3b|, and dynamic scope is lazy? 08:07:36 <|3b|> no, dynamic scope accesses the dynamic binding 08:08:01 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 08:08:11 <|3b|> both access the current value of the binding, even if it has changed since the function was compiled 08:08:12 lazy on the programmer's part maybe, in that you don't have to pass a variable around in a bunch of parameter lists :) 08:08:15 -!- peccu [~peccu@KD106179020073.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.6] 08:09:26 <|3b|> dynamic scope also lets you make new see new bindings 08:10:05 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 08:11:14 <|3b|> for example (defvar *x* 1) (defvar *f* (let ((*x* 2)) (lambda () *x*))) (funcall *f*) (let ((*x* 3)) (funcall *f*)) 08:11:27 you could also use macros for changing lexical scope bindings 08:11:57 <|3b|> first funcall sees the global binding of *x*, second sees the binding from (let ((*x* 3))...) 08:12:47 reactormonk: you're already confused about the scopes; you better leave macros for later. 08:13:09 <|3b|> if by 'use macros' you mean 'use SETF' then yes 08:13:15 peccu [~peccu@KD106179020073.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 08:14:26 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 08:14:45 |3b|, the example looks clear enough for me 08:15:07 ivan-kanis [~user@nantes.visionobjects.com] has joined #lisp 08:16:27 <|3b|> also consider (multiple-value-bind (a b) (let ((x 1)) (values (lambda () x) (lambda () (incf x)))) (let ((x 4)) (list (funcall a) (funcall b) (funcall a)))) 08:16:28 moore33 [~moore@ABordeaux-153-1-11-189.w92-146.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 08:17:15 <|3b|> both functions see the same lexical binding, so when the second modifies it, the first sees the new value 08:17:34 <|3b|> and neither sees the lexical binding (to 4) around the calls 08:17:50 fancy 08:18:08 can I somehow access that x? 08:18:30 <|3b|> aside from calling functions that can access it (like those 2 lambdas) not portably 08:18:48 -!- joekarma [~joekarma@70-36-57-169.dyn.novuscom.net] has quit [Quit: joekarma] 08:19:02 <|3b|> some implementations provide access through debuggers or related APIs for example 08:19:24 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 08:22:24 <|3b|> optimizing implementations might not actually store it separately if they can see nothing modifies it though, as in the original example that just did (let ((x 1)) (lambda () x)) 08:23:14 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:23:26 bitonic [~user@027cae25.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 08:23:34 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:23:38 foreignFunction [~niksaak@94.27.88.215] has joined #lisp 08:24:21 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 08:25:08 -!- nostoi [~nostoi@74.Red-79-155-229.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 08:25:49 -!- peccu is now known as PECCU 08:26:07 as expected 08:26:23 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 08:27:08 -!- PECCU [~peccu@KD106179020073.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.6] 08:27:30 peccu [~peccu@KD106179020073.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 08:28:07 -!- Bike [~Glossina@65-100-32-102.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:28:13 -!- peccu is now known as PECCU 08:30:13 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-142-181.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:30:48 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:31:11 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-142-181.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 08:33:10 -!- Cymew [~user@fw01d.snowmen.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:33:29 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 08:37:35 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:39:26 cornihilio [~user@nfmv001171014.uqw.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 08:40:05 jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@bl6-95-135.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 08:40:29 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 08:41:32 -!- justinmcp [~justinmcp@ppp118-208-139-170.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:41:49 -!- antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:42:57 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 08:45:23 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 08:46:03 ams [ams@gnu/inetutils/ams] has joined #lisp 08:46:51 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 08:50:36 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@nantes.visionobjects.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:51:29 ivan-kanis [~user@nantes.visionobjects.com] has joined #lisp 08:51:31 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 08:53:20 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 08:53:54 -!- trigen [~MSX@devvers.tweaknet.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:55:06 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:55:25 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 08:56:16 trigen [~MSX@devvers.tweaknet.net] has joined #lisp 08:58:12 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 08:59:00 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@static-217-133-17-91.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 08:59:48 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 09:00:58 -!- jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@bl6-95-135.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: jcazevedo] 09:04:54 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu1.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:05:28 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:07:33 paolo_m [~user@2-228-95-110.ip190.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 09:08:58 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 09:10:50 is there a facility to copy a struct deeply? 09:11:38 kiuma [~kiuma@static-217-133-17-91.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 09:13:16 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:13:53 ASau` [~user@37-144-27-123.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 09:14:11 taylanub [tub@p4FD927E4.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:15:36 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 09:15:39 -!- ASau [~user@95-24-181-228.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:16:39 madnificent: no. 09:19:41 -!- moore33 [~moore@ABordeaux-153-1-11-189.w92-146.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 09:19:49 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:21:41 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 09:22:13 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 09:22:50 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@static-217-133-17-91.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 09:25:41 H4ns: thanks 09:27:11 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 09:28:24 Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 09:29:24 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.57.70] has joined #lisp 09:30:41 kiuma [~kiuma@static-217-133-17-91.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 09:31:14 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 09:35:07 edgar-rft [~GOD@HSI-KBW-078-043-123-191.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 09:35:27 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:38:07 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 09:39:20 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 09:40:03 -!- bitonic [~user@027cae25.bb.sky.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:42:44 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 09:43:41 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 09:48:03 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:48:10 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:49:25 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 09:50:37 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@static-217-133-17-91.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 09:50:37 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 09:52:34 mcsontos_ [~mcsontos@77.240.184.15] has joined #lisp 09:52:48 add^_ [~add^_@m212-152-10-255.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 09:55:07 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 09:57:46 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 10:02:26 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 10:03:54 -!- taylanub [tub@p4FD927E4.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 10:03:55 taylanub [tub@p4FD94FAB.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:04:28 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 10:05:23 kiuma [~kiuma@static-217-133-17-91.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 10:06:42 fantazo [~fantazo@213.129.230.10] has joined #lisp 10:08:00 -!- c_arenz [~arenz@HSI-KBW-109-193-252-079.hsi7.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 10:08:18 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 10:08:48 jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@193.136.27.164] has joined #lisp 10:08:55 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 10:11:31 -!- dfox [~dfox@89.177.105.49] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 10:13:41 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 10:17:47 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:19:06 mjs2600 [~mjs2600@user-0c999kc.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 10:20:30 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 10:24:36 -!- echo-area [~user@182.92.247.2] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:24:46 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:25:17 Fade: Hey. Did you and Tux ever figure out the colorize issue? I'm just sitting down now to look at it. 10:25:21 :-/ sorry for the delay 10:26:23 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@nantes.visionobjects.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:26:53 ivan-kanis [~user@nantes.visionobjects.com] has joined #lisp 10:27:01 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@nantes.visionobjects.com] has quit [Client Quit] 10:27:02 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 10:31:23 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:33:46 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 10:36:47 leo2007 [~leo@li335-25.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 10:38:17 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:40:30 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 10:40:46 phax_ [~phax@c-67-161-5-247.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:40:56 -!- phax_ [~phax@c-67-161-5-247.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:41:48 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-184-70.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:42:50 antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 10:43:29 oubiwann1 [~oubiwann@c-98-207-167-39.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:44:36 -!- oubiwann [~oubiwann@c-98-207-167-39.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 10:44:37 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:46:13 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:46:57 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 10:46:57 minion: you around? 10:46:58 what's up? 10:49:34 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 10:52:24 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-142-181.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:53:43 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:54:30 minion: memo for Tuxedo, see https://github.com/redline6561/colorize/issues/1 You just need to wrap the return value of html-colorization in a 
 block. Other code (3bmd) expects the current behavior but I am strongly considering changing it to return a 
 block.
10:54:30  Remembered. I'll tell Tuxedo when he/she/it next speaks.
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11:04:29  I for one approve of c.l.l finally having an entirely on-topic flamewar
11:04:41  even though it's completely stupid
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11:10:03  are there any sensible lisp mailing lists for noobs?
11:11:34  mstevens: If you don't need to post, reading planet.lisp.org is a good alternative to a list.
11:11:41 asvil [~user@ns.osvtl.spb.ru] has joined #lisp
11:12:14  antoszka: I do read there, and it is indeed educational
11:13:04  somewhere to post stupid questions would be nice though
11:13:16  I mean right now I annoy you lot of #clnoobs
11:13:22  depending on how noob my question feels
11:13:27  s/of/or/
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11:14:43  mstevens: This channel? :) I ask my questions here and learn a lot.
11:15:17  antoszka: Well I ask #lisp when I'm feeling moderately intelligent, and #clnoobs when I'm feeling dumb
11:15:24  :)
11:15:47 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp
11:15:58  I never visited #clboobs, must have a look.
11:16:03 *p_l* just decided to accept that getting slapped around with manual is not a big problem ;)
11:16:07  i feel dumb all the time so i don't ask any questions
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11:16:41  But I actually think for this iteration of trying to learn lisp it may be making sense
11:16:52  And quicklisp is excellent
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11:21:55  antoszka: clboobs? :D
11:23:05  p_l: for lisp porn sites
11:24:08  what do you call a set that has the additonal constraint of being ordered? simply an "ordered set"?
11:24:17  a unique list?
11:24:27  ezakimak: ordered set
11:24:33  ok. thanks.
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13:54:18  mstevens: there's also reddit
13:54:43 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp
13:55:03  madnificent: hmm? there's a good lisp subreddit?
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13:57:24  mstevens: r/lisp is decent
13:57:39  yeah. You can also sometimes get very interesting stuff
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13:58:22 *mstevens* will take a look
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14:01:10  I liked the "I wrote a Lisp OS without meaning to" post
14:02:15  That guy is pretty curmudgeonly
14:02:33 -!- Shozan is now known as SHODAN
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14:05:45  p_l: link ?
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14:09:11  a moment
14:09:34  http://www.reddit.com/r/lisp/comments/10gr05/lisp_based_operating_system_questionproposition/c6dl7s3 <--- this
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14:26:14  it's not CL, but it's pretty interesting case
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14:41:28  I'm bored
14:41:35  I demand entertainment
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14:43:30  Wrong channel
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14:51:46  Greetings lispers
14:51:58  greetings tmh
14:51:58  hello
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15:06:44  redline6561: yeah, we made a reversion that got our stuff back up, but at this point I can't recall the details.
15:06:58  I'll ask Tux to get in touch /w you.
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15:25:44  Lisp Tip : Compile your code on as many implmementations as you can, each one will show different warnings/errors. The only time not to do this, of course, is if you are heavily relying on implementation specific features.
15:26:27 *Xach* is glad to have made it a little easier to do that
15:26:37 smazga [~acrid@li336-165.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp
15:26:58  Happy birthday, Quicklisp!
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15:28:50  Xach: Indeed, although I'm running into some issue with local projects in Quicklisp and CCL 1.8 that may be a consequence of trying different implementations.
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15:29:05  Xach: Still trying to track down the source.
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15:30:02  another Lisp Tip: Using excessive type hinting with (safety 0) and (speed 3) can lead to GC invariant loss if wrong type gets passed
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15:32:32  hmm
15:33:16  Xach: This is on Windows and appears to be a pathname issue. I'll let you know if it is a Quicklisp issue. I'm suspecting it could also be a CCL issue.
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15:34:57  ah, hmm, ouch :(
15:35:12 -!- kilon [~user@178.59.17.196] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
15:35:18  i fixed one issue (CCL escapes . in namestrings with > IIRC) but i can easily imagine more
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15:36:08  and my tip came from enjoying the effect of mangling a double as fixnum
15:37:45  Xach: I'll dig into it some more and get back to you on #quicklisp.
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15:38:49  The issue is partly on Quicklisp for trying to use approximately the same namestring syntax on different implementations. So far it works ok, but.
15:39:31  Xach: That is what I'm suspecting. I think system-index.txt was generated by LispWorks and CCL doesn't want to play nice with that. I'll confirm.
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15:43:50  p_l: SBCL is kind of nice that way: the majority of random bitstrings aren't pointers (:
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15:44:20  Xach: Indeed, that is the problem, CCL wants directories separated by '/' and LispWorks doesn't care, but if it generates system-index.txt, it uses '\'.
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15:45:25  ThomasH: thanks.
15:46:24  I'll have to look into it more tonight.
15:46:36  I am a little surprised that CCL doesn't like a backslash
15:47:50  Xach: I don't know what to say. I was just trying some things on CCL this morning and was getting a lot of complaining that I didn't expect. I was surprised because none of it showed up with LW on windows or SBCL on ArchLinux.
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15:49:00 *ThomasH* still hasn't gotten to real work yet. (Real work being non-lisp stuff)
15:49:13  No problem, I'll investigate a fix
15:50:37  pkhuong: that's exactly from SBCL :)
15:51:15  when your CL tells you about unknown object and spews widetag openly, ph34r ;)
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15:53:38  p_l: better clear any path from a root to that object before you experience GC invariant lossage.
15:54:36  pkhuong: I demonstrated killing two lisp-based irc bots through their evaluator this way :)
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17:20:44  Is there a popular quote about lisp, something along the lines of "everything is either lisp or a poorly implemented [...] version of lisp"?
17:20:58  greenspun's 10th
17:21:09  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenspun's_tenth_rule
17:21:09  joekarma: Thanks.
17:21:37  Guess I better learn Lisp.
17:22:10  "lisp is a programmable programming language" - Graham(?)
17:22:19  no
17:22:48  ah alan kay
17:23:00  definitely worth learning--certainly my favourite language--but bear in mind that a lot of the advantages that greenspun's tenth implicitly refers to are available in other modern languages as well
17:23:07  lmat: if you like to spend less time coding and do more whilst doing it, you should.  if you want to find a day-job as a code-monkey, you shouldn't.
17:23:19  nowadays it seems composable syntax (achieved through homoiconicity) is the only feature that makes a language a lisp
17:23:20  madnificent: heh.
17:23:27  madnificent: Already got the job, so I suppose I'm free to learn it?
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17:23:53  the thing that sets lisp apart is that it can mold itself into anything
17:23:57  lmat: there is some risk you will find some aspects of the job unbearable.
17:24:16  more quotes: lispers.org
17:24:29  lmat: some lispers seem to grow frustrated of the practical limits other languages have.  but it'll take you a few years to let it grow on you that much, so it's safe ;-)
17:24:33  thing is, reshaping lisp *too* much is generally discouraged
17:24:41 stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-228-063.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp
17:24:55  does this channel generally mean CL when you say "lisp" ?
17:25:00  taylanub: yes
17:25:01  yes
17:25:02 -!- steffi_s is now known as linse
17:25:05  ok
17:25:22  though things said in this conversation apply to most dialects
17:25:25  taylanub: however, LISP indicates the early lisps.  scheme is used to refer to the scheme family.
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17:27:18  the thing that sets lisps apart is that its elements are not textual tokens
17:27:49  everything else is gravy
17:27:54  (tasty, tasty gravy)
17:28:00  dlowe: and that means yada yada unless you know the implications of that.  but those are hard to express
17:28:23 *joekarma* waves hand
17:28:27  ergo, lisp is good
17:28:37  madnificent: yeah, I suppose. The implications are rather far reaching, though
17:28:47  dlowe: also, i think you're ignoring lisp's speed whilst that is somewhat unique when allowing this kind of metaprogramming.
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17:28:55 *madnificent* waves at joekarma 
17:29:01  joekarma: 'yes'
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17:29:49  i've yet to figure out why lisp is cool. before I started using it, I was told it was good functional support and mapping/etc, but it turns out few lispers use those rather than loop/do. then I was told it was macros, but I've yet to bump into anything I can't do with defmacro and not defun.
17:29:59  but seriously, lisp really has to be used for a while to be truly appreciated. it's kind of like an inverse bell curve of appreciation based on exposure
17:30:29  when you know nothing about it, it's "wow, that cool mysterious language that people always reference"
17:30:36  then it's, "ew, parentheses"
17:30:39  DrPete_: you can't execute code in a different environment, without macros.  for instance, the with-* macros
17:30:40  then, enlightenment
17:31:03  (disclaimer: exposure 2 weeks, only used to solve Project Euler problems so far)
17:31:07  DrPete_: as in, the macro can bind variables for you
17:31:25  madnificent: would that be like the with-gensyms stuff in the book?
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17:31:48  DrPete_: and i don't think lisp particularly shines in Project Euler problems.  i'm not sure though.  i find that it's especially good when the big picture becomes a bit more complex or when the requirements change a bit
17:31:55 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp
17:32:08  it's often said that lisp shines on medium to large sized projects
17:32:13  DrPete_: with-gensyms is one of them, however that's just for use in defining macros... so if they're only good to support themselves, that'd be rather dull ;)
17:32:16  i'll bear that in mind. I just turned to Project Euler as a quick way to learn syntax and whatnot
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17:32:41  DrPete_: do you use emacs + SLIME?
17:32:42  I find it works very well for small projects too, once you're familiar with it
17:32:47  DrPete_: practical common lisp is a fairly good resource in my opinion.  but it takes a while to fully grasp the language.
17:32:51 mjs2600 [~mjs2600@24.106.194.14] has joined #lisp
17:32:52  daimrod: vim and slimv, though I assume the workflow is much the same
17:33:21  that'll do
17:33:28  i do very much like the REPL-y aspects when combined with a nice editor, being able to instantly send sexprs to the REPL and such
17:34:12  DrPete_: http://fare.tunes.org/files/fun/fibonacci.lisp here, this might be relevant if you're mostly using it for math problems.
17:34:31 estefani [~canaima@190.200.20.138] has joined #lisp
17:34:33  oh, interesting, I'll take a lok
17:34:37  s/ok/ook/
17:34:46  hola
17:34:49 -!- findiggle1 [~kirkwood@173-10-106-172-BusName-Washington.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Client Quit]
17:34:57  if you're going to be using lisp, be careful not to get scared away from good libraries just because they haven't been touched in a couple of years
17:35:10 -!- PuercoPop [~user@190.41.173.174] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:35:24  you'll see that a lot. it's an old languages, with old libraries. oldies but goodies, as they say
17:35:38  noted
17:35:54  my theory about that is that lisp libs tend to evolve to the local maximum faster than libs in other languages.
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17:44:30  okay, this memoization stuff is pretty crazy
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17:52:47  I note that http://fare.tunes.org/files/fun/fibonacci.lisp uses ' rather than #' to refer to functions, e.g. (iter-1 'fib-step 50000 0 1) rather than (iter-1 #'fib-step 50000 0 1). is this significant?
17:53:08  DrPete_: you should almost never write a macro.  It's one of those things that you can go for a long time without needing, and then all of the sudden you can't do this one thing without macros and you're glad you have them
17:53:20  i will bear that in mind
17:53:30  DrPete_: 'foo refers to the symbol named "foo" #'foo refers to the function bound to the symbol foo
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17:53:41  DrPete_: When using a symbol to designate a function, the symbol's global value as a function is used.
17:53:56  DrPete_: with #', the lexical binding is used if present.
17:53:59  if you refer to #'foo then you can't later redefine foo and have it point to the same function
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17:54:58  aha - so 'foo would "break out" of a (labels ((foo (...))) (...)) block?
17:55:04 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp
17:55:14  yes.
17:55:19  i see, thanks
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17:57:10  Also, redefining defun is technically not well defined.  Practically what happens when you redefine one is that calls to the previous one may have been inlined (in which case the old version will be used).  It's fine to redefine defuns when testing stuff or for examples like that fibonacci, but not good practice in real code
17:57:37  sbcl will warn you when you redefine one
17:58:32  I don't think that's a fair characterization
17:58:38  you're right it's not
17:58:43  after thinking about it
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17:59:18  sbcl gives a style-warning under certain circumstances; the intent, i believe, is to alert you that you're redefining a function in place B that was initially defined in place A, so you don't unknowingly clobber something.
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17:59:47  If you redefine a defun, then any previous references to that defun may or may not be updated, as the implementation desires
18:00:05  But other than that it is well defined
18:00:12  that has bitten me once or twice when sending defuns to a REPL and not the whole file I was working on
18:00:19  I have come across that once or twice. almost makes me want to just eval everything while testing rather than compile
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18:02:06  So if you redefine a defun to fix a bug (for example) the safe thing to do is to recompile any defuns that reference it.
18:02:39  TGIE
18:02:42  (thank god it's emacs)
18:03:18  C-c C-w c
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18:03:44  Well also thanks that the lisp standard wasn't written by the people who wrote the C standard.  In C, anything strange invokes "undefined behavior" which literally lets the compiler do whatever it wants for the entire program
18:04:41  lisp has the same looseness with "implementation-defined" does it not? i see that crop up a lot in CLHS
18:04:57  you know, Guy Steele participated in the ANSI C standards process (:
18:05:00  idea for toy c implementation: do something random (but consistently random, like show a picture of a unicorn) every time "undefined behaviour" is encountered
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18:05:34  joekarma: I've seen actual compilers replace any function with undefined behavior with "return 0;" it turns out to be a big performance win
18:05:48  yeah, lisp has plenty of undefined behavior.  one that bites people a lot is whether dolist and such establish new bindings each iteration.
18:05:48  hehe
18:05:50  well with compiler detected undefined behavior
18:05:59  "first, we prove it fast. then, we prove it correct... maybe...."
18:06:27 -!- chimay [~chimay@unaffiliated/chimay] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.0-dev]
18:06:41  It's also currently debated whether or not C allows side-effect free loops to be non-terminating.  Some compilers assume any side-effect free loop terminates
18:06:42  i would use that unicorn compiler. my job involves maintaining a C project that targets multiple compilers, and being able to prove that it is unicornless would actually be a useful property for portability checking
18:06:59 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp
18:07:09  DrPete_: much undefined behavior cannot be detected at compile time
18:07:17  or not trivially anyway
18:07:21  hm
18:07:24  "first, we solve the halting problem...."
18:07:31  heh
18:07:41  actually I have no idea if that's required
18:07:49  I'd guess most of it could be determined at compile time
18:07:50 ivan-kanis [~user@lns-c10k-ft-02-t2-89-83-137-164.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr] has joined #lisp
18:08:13  anyway too far OT now I think
18:08:34 ehu [ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp
18:08:44  okay, we're talking about a lisp implementation that allows you to visualize unicorniness then
18:09:29  antifuchs: Really? I knew he cowrote a highly-regarded (but unofficial) book on the topic, but didn't know he was in on the process
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18:09:52 *Xach* has harbison & steele on his bookshelf
18:10:02  Xach: according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guy_L._Steele,_Jr. he did
18:10:07  haven't verified further
18:10:35  but IME it's usually a safe bet to assume steele has had his fingers in any given lang standardization process
18:10:38  if he did he was probably active in c.l.l
18:10:42  back before it was c.l.l
18:11:12 -!- catmtking [~catmtking@wireless-mobilenet-169-235-163-25.bulk.ucr.edu] has quit [Quit: catmtking]
18:11:22  might even be able to find old posts by him...
18:11:44 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
18:12:15  joekarma: Doesn't look like it.
18:12:27  oh, that's too bad
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18:13:39  prxq: I think the "Lisp is a programmable programming language" was coined by John Foderaro
18:13:54  All this talking about languages makes me want to read "A Brief, Incomplete, and Mostly Wrong History of Programming Lnaguages" again
18:14:11  haha
18:14:14  He is a Franz Inc engineer and was the main original developer for Allegro CL.
18:14:52 mcsontos_ [~mcsontos@77.240.184.15] has joined #lisp
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18:16:30  wish I could find a lisp standardization discussions archive
18:17:04  Didn't the guy who wrote the hyperspec write a history of the CL standardization process?
18:17:10  yes
18:17:15  I think it's in the standard
18:17:48  joekarma: http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/project/ai-repository/ai/lang/lisp/doc/history/cl.txt
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18:18:03  cheers, thanks
18:18:04  the mailing list archive is kicking around privately
18:18:28  that's an archive of discussions, not pitman's history, which is on his site.
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18:45:35  holy smokes
18:45:37  http://www.loper-os.org/
18:46:14  His writings on lisp and willingness to argue in the comments sections on his posts are great
18:47:07  Specifically: http://www.loper-os.org/?p=42
18:47:10 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp
18:47:50 <`fogus> One of my favorites quotes in the history of flammage: "Clojure is the gutted and zombie-reanimated corpse of a dream."
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18:49:26  Yeah ahaha
18:49:31  I mean, I am a noob lisper
18:49:41  but this guy is a believer
18:49:48  and a hilarious orator
18:50:51  Certum quod factum: overconfident! :)
18:51:21 thedeadghost [~deadghost@71-84-68-72.dhcp.rvsd.ca.charter.com] has joined #lisp
18:51:53  "(Symbolics Genera, the state of the art, is [my standard of comparison] ..."
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18:52:17  i wonder how serious that is
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19:17:27  this is disgusting: (let ((m 14) (n 12) (x 7) (y 0))(every #'plusp (list m n x y (/ x y))))
19:18:00  Disgusting?
19:18:12 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
19:18:28  I meant this is disgusting: (let ((m 14) (n 12) (x 7) (y 0))(every #'plusp (list m n x y (ignore-errors (/ x y)))))
19:18:40  this discussion is disgusting!
19:18:41  Bike: yeah, ugly style
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19:33:07  my solution becomes: http://paste.lisp.org/display/132585
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19:34:07  solution to what?
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19:35:02  francogrex: USE-VALUE might be a good restart to use there instead of TEST
19:35:19  hola
19:35:30  francogrex: then (invoke-restart 'test 0) becomes (use-value 0)
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19:36:05  a ocurrido un milagro
19:36:26  auf englische, svp
19:36:54  dlowe: the whole function?
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19:38:21  francogrex: just make a restart-case called use-value. CL has use-value function already defined
19:38:24  clhs use-value
19:38:24  http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_use_va.htm
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19:39:32  hey
19:39:52  i have a function that i'm writing, just want to see if you guys think there could be anything potentially wrong with it
19:39:52  http://paste.lisp.org/display/132586
19:40:15  i'm not sure if asignments in (let ((..))) are executed sequentially or not
19:40:38 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp
19:40:40  and, also not sure how scoping affects result of an assignment inside a let when returned
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19:41:11  msmith0957: they are evaluated in order, but the older bindings are not visible to the newer bindings in LET. They are, in LET*.
19:41:35  msmith0957: It's pretty hard to help with code that is formatted so unconventionally.
19:41:57  msmith0957: or as fragmented, actually.
19:42:08  how so? as you can see.. i'm new
19:42:13  (loop while 
 ...) is the syntax; if you put parens around the form, it is treated as a function call.
19:42:54  oh, ok, ignoring that fact
19:43:04  i just want to keep running that loop while that list is not empty
19:43:06  i believe that would work
19:43:40  you were mentioning let vs let* by older/newer bindings. by older/newer you mean assignments (bindings?) that appear before others
19:43:41  ?
19:43:46  nope, unless you have a function called possible-moves.
19:44:05  ehu: possible-moves is just a list, i thought a list evaluates to T unless it's () = nil
19:44:08  msmith0957: http://paste.lisp.org/display/132586#1 has conventional formatting (but unconventional design)
19:44:34  msmith0957: true. but your (possible-moves) is a call to the function POSSIBLE-MOVES
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19:44:56  ehu: yes, i see your point now
19:44:59 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
19:45:40  as far as writing this in a more 'functional' manner, how else could i have written this loop?
19:45:53  (loop for curr-move in possible-moves do ...)
19:46:00  msmith0957: it would be much more typical to do something like this: (loop for curr-move in possible-moves collect (create-pnode ...))
19:46:07  or possibly mapcar
19:46:45  ahh, i didn't know that was possible
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19:46:58  (mapcar (lambda (curr-move) (create-pnode ...)) possible-moves)
19:47:28  sure, but popping a variable in a loop and using it as a termination clause is highly unusual.
19:47:40  mapcar is indeed even more idiomatic
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19:48:20  ok, thanks
19:50:45  Xach: in your paste, why is it conventional to bunch parens all together at the end of a statement. it seems more confusing than indenting parens individually on their own lines, similar to braces in c/java
19:51:47  msmith0957: it makes your code more compact - if you use idiomatic lisp, it means your code will usually fit on one screen.
19:51:59  which helps you understand what your code does.
19:51:59 fantazo [~fantazo@91-119-123-199.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp
19:52:27  msmith0957: People generally read lisp code by indentation, not parens. And the editors usually support writing that way too.
19:52:39 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
19:52:54  that too.
19:53:04  oh, any of you guys ever experiment sublime w/ sublimeREPL ?
19:53:05 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.111.30] has left #lisp
19:53:06  that first LET should be a LET*
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19:54:50  thanks postfuturist, i fixed it on my end
19:54:55  oh, that's already been mentioned :)
19:55:09 stocktrader [~stocktrad@252-64-212-66.spl.org] has joined #lisp
19:55:38  yes, everyone was all over it. wouldve probably been a little confusing to debug otherwise
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19:56:31  time for class.. adios
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20:38:40  do we have a C to Common Lisp compiler?
20:38:52 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp
20:38:53  pjb have something strange this way IIRC
20:39:21  dim: there was Zeta-C on symbolics lispm
20:39:39  something that works nowadays, say?
20:40:03  I started on one but it didn't get very far
20:40:25  dim: https://github.com/vsedach/Vacietis
20:40:40 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20:40:46  wow thanks
20:40:47  oh, neat.
20:41:11  now, embedding that as a PostgreSQL PL :)
20:41:20  PL/Vacietis, anyone interested? :)
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20:44:18  it seems I could even have C-M-x when doing C, with that
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21:26:04 *trebor_dki* scanned the logs, but did not find anything regarding to planet.lisp.org-problems ... 
21:26:23  what happened to planet.lisp.org?
21:26:58  looks fine to me.
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21:28:49  um, now here, too. but this morning i could not connect (time-out) and then it was nearly empty (infos only in the archive)...
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22:03:54  Are there documentation generators for CL?
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22:06:47  dmbaturin: http://www.cliki.net/documentation%20tool
22:08:01  Bike: Thanks, I missed that. Which one is the most widely used?
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22:08:51  no idea.
22:09:27  Bike: Which one do you use?
22:09:51  I don't.
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22:26:24  dmbaturin: I would guess this one: http://weitz.de/documentation-template/ since weitzware is so consistently well documented
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22:30:17  dmbaturin: if it's for documenting external packages, i tend to use the readme macro of repl-utilities
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22:30:43  dmbaturin: but that gives you just a quick overview
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22:33:57  Will take a look.
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22:34:56  By the way, what could you suggest as an example of a relatively big software to use as a source of good practice?
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22:37:28  I can't really suggest anything because when I read lisp libraries it's usually a single definition at a time and for a specific reason (not to edify--no pun intended--myself on good software design), but Hunchentoot or perhaps cl-ppcre will probably be good libraries to read
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22:38:59  of course, it should also help that there's numerous examples of these libraries in action, and they're documented as well
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22:39:51  The stuff I want to implement is a domain-specific configuration framework that receives user commands/API calls, stores in an internal config and translates into backend software configs.
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22:41:26  as in an API to configure things like nginx?
22:41:32  To provide a single point of interaction with several backends (like openssl and openldap for PKI, for instance).
22:41:36 -!- daniel1 is now known as ANDRES1
22:42:34  joekarma: Might be, I don't know what API specifically you mean. If you've seen 'uci' from OpenWRT, or clish, it's pretty similar to what I want to do.
22:42:49  Hm, interesting. I don't have any suggestions unfortunately. Hopefully someone else in the channel does.
22:43:21  Flexibility of CL is pretty tempting to me.
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23:11:12 *wolgo* this will generate test data
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