00:03:24 -!- pirateking-_- [~piratekin@unaffiliated/pirateking---/x-2885143] has quit [Quit: pirateking-_-] 00:03:34 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 00:03:56 pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has joined #lisp 00:07:22 ingvar [~ingvar@c-89-160-55-242.cust.bredband2.com] has joined #lisp 00:08:17 devnulll [~devnull@174-30.60-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 00:08:37 tychoish [~tychoish@foucault.cyborginstitute.net] has joined #lisp 00:08:53 quickquestion how do I store the result of a function in a variable ? 00:09:00 sorry for the n00bness :( 00:09:28 (setf variable-name [function-call-here]) 00:10:13 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:10:53 Bike: like this (setf dice [dice()]) 00:11:00 no. 00:11:09 :) I tought as it didn't work :( 00:11:14 Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 00:11:36 You apparently don't even know function call syntax yet. What reference or tutorial are you using? 00:12:00 Bike: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/variables.html 00:12:15 -!- m7w [~chatzilla@178.172.214.239] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 00:12:27 Bike: I have a simple dice() function and would like to use it as a variable. I do know how to call the function but not in an html rendering that would require a variable I think 00:12:53 If you're that far, you should know that to call the dice function you'd write (dice). 00:13:48 Bike: oh sorry i got confused 00:13:50 That chapter also tells you how assignments are done. 00:13:59 e.g. «(setf *x* (+ 1 *x*))» 00:14:18 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 00:15:16 bjorkintosh [~bjork@ip68-13-229-200.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 00:15:19 ok so Bike I just dont need the [ I guess 00:15:31 No, that was just supposed to be an "insert here" thing. 00:15:40 and it's not dice(), it's (dice). 00:20:04 yes I know is (dice) now thanks :) 00:20:12 I got confused with other web stuff :) 00:21:04 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:23:37 :( 00:23:41 I still get now In CHAPTER-?-?.HTML: Undeclared free variable DICE 00:24:34 Well yes, you have to declare variables first, it's not like Python. I'm pretty sure the book covers this. 00:25:09 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 00:27:30 Bike: ". Lisp doesn't need to declare variables before they are used. * 00:27:37 http://cs.gmu.edu/~sean/lisp/LispTutorial.html 00:28:36 why is this wrong then (setf dice (dice)) ? 00:28:57 devnulll: bad tutorial 00:29:17 Xach: apologizes I just work with what I found :) is from a university so I thought is reliable 00:29:28 «This quickstart is only intended to get you introduced to very basic concepts in Lisp, not any of the really cool stuff Lisp does. As such it's geared to how to do C in Lisp,» among other things 00:29:46 should I do var dice before ? 00:29:48 but yeah, use, say, (defvar *dice*), and then (setf *dice* (dice)), but you're probably not writing good code 00:30:28 devnulll: there is more to the trustworthiness of a webpage than the TLD :P 00:31:31 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 00:35:52 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 00:36:42 ok variables should be fine thanks bike and all 00:36:53 vwvwvwv [~vwvwvwv@99-130-100-63.lightspeed.snantx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:36:54 does anyone has some experience with cl-who ? 00:38:22 *Xach* has some experience with cl-who 00:38:42 ah let me show you my lil problem..sorry again if I miss something obvious 00:38:52 Xach: just starting :) making a pastie now 00:39:17 lol 00:39:22 hi xach 00:39:49 i am pretty sure i read a book of you lol 00:40:32 devnulll: cl-who rewards careful study of its evaluation rules 00:41:02 Vutral: i have not written any books and no books are about me except that unauthorized biography 00:41:13 http://paste.lisp.org/display/132170 thanks in advance 00:41:20 you got an unauthorized biography ? 00:42:17 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 00:42:17 devnulll: I think that error message is very clear. 00:42:38 devnulll: Your format control string can only handle two arguments but you provide three. 00:42:42 Xach: nope because I also left it alone in an

why the

doesn't show the variable either ? 00:43:07 Xach: or is the h2 tag only for static ? 00:43:24 mjs2600 [~mjs2600@user-0c999kc.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 00:43:36 devnulll: fix the format problem and then try again. 00:43:46 The doubled (( looks problematic too. 00:43:55 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 00:44:33 If you are using slime, slime-next-time will jump to the line where the warning was detected 00:44:43 Xach: actually I don't want to show it inside that line but in a separate line so to rephrase how do you mix text + a variable in cl-who ? 00:45:01 kennyd: I am using Clozure CL 00:45:26 nevermind that warning I cancelled it from that line now is only on the

line and there is no warning or error 00:45:32 just doesn't show the variable :) 00:45:38 steffi_s [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1178025755.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 00:45:56 joekarma [~joekarma@70-36-57-169.dyn.novuscom.net] has joined #lisp 00:47:24 -!- Houl [~Parmi@unaffiliated/houl] has quit [Quit: weil das Wetter so schön ist] 00:48:02 devnulll: see http://weitz.de/cl-who/ under "Syntax and Semantics". The symbol falls under "A form which is neither a string nor a keyword ..." 00:48:04 http://paste.lisp.org/display/132171 00:50:28 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:51:02 Xach: but i have no loop. That is utterly confusing for a simple thing e.g. how to display a variable in HTML using that template ? 00:51:19 %myvariable% for example or anything ... ? 00:51:51 I find myself preferring monkeylib-html these days 00:52:39 with that library you have the option of passing an s-expression to convert to HTML 00:52:41 devnulll: Did you find the section I was talking about? 00:52:44 joekarma: yeah I am not surprised like you have a template system to show HTML and you don't include something like how to embed a variable without having to show loops dunno is like WTF 00:52:59 Xach: yes did you read it ? is about loops not about embedding variables 00:53:16 joekarma: thanks checking it now :) 00:53:27 devnulll: Incorrect. It is about embedding variables, and LOOP is used as just an example, and not the important part. 00:53:47 catmtking [~catmtking@108-224-122-111.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:53:53 CL-WHO:STR is the thing to use. 00:54:33 Xach: checking again 00:54:52 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 00:55:36 ISF [~ivan@187.64.220.85] has joined #lisp 00:56:36 I am there http://weitz.de/cl-who/#str again it doesn't talk about variables does it ? 00:57:08 example he gives (escape-string " 'naïve'") == I am trying to display a variable not a string ? 00:57:35 You are trying to get the value of a form and write it to the HTML output stream; a variable is a form. 00:58:34 Xach: I am not getting any value from a form? just imagine you have a variable that contains a random string ..... or in this cases a random number. How do you display it ? e.g. h1: "hello my dear" variable 00:59:03 I don't think I am *that* dumb lol 00:59:17 devnulll: Sorry, I don't have the energy to fight about it. You're wrong, and the sooner you realize it, the faster you will progress. 00:59:56 Xach: ok thanks anyway. I was also helping a lot of n00bs on #ruby and I always thought the best way not to fight about something is to provide with help vs RTFM but that's just me 01:00:25 The point is that variables are forms. You could just as well just put (dice) right there. 01:00:39 Bike: ah I can ? 01:01:03 (who:str dice) 01:01:05 And the value of the form is whatever dice returns, or the value of the variable if it's a variable. 01:01:34 joekarma: thanks but how can I added something before the variable just like "your lucky number is " ? 01:01:43 again to all I am really sorry for being so useless and n00b 01:02:00 (:h2 "your lucky number is " (who:str dice)) 01:02:10 rootlocus [~rootlocus@124-169-1-165.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 01:02:41 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 01:03:09 joekarma: thanks a lot :) now I got it 01:03:19 joekarma: and it works :D really thanks a million 01:04:07 I can't really take credit for that 01:04:18 I just said what Bike and Xachh were saying in a different way 01:04:24 s/hh/h/ 01:05:07 yes perhaps more cryptic :) 01:05:22 so essentially I didn't need a variable as I can embed the dice function directly apparently 01:05:22 Euthy [~euthy@unaffiliated/euthydemus] has joined #lisp 01:05:37 A call to the dice function. 01:05:42 if I use a variable it shows always the same number probably because it runs the random first and then stores it in the variable 01:05:47 Yes. 01:05:57 Bike: yes sorry for my wrong wording 01:06:00 If you put the (dice) form in there it'll call the function again every time. 01:06:08 Bike xach also appreciated very much your help 01:06:10 Just trying to get you thinking more precisely about what you're doing. 01:06:21 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 01:06:36 Odin- [~sbkhh@erudite.anarchism.is] has joined #lisp 01:06:39 Bike: yes I need that otherwise I don't have a random number :X 01:07:07 Bike: if I store (dice) in the variable it shows always 10. By calling (dice) it does it each time so I guess is what I intended to have :) 01:07:21 right. 01:08:07 -!- sellout42 [~Adium@207.225.123.108] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:08:34 I love this lisp for web apps thing It makes it so challenging that is fun at the same time :) 01:08:36 BountyX [~andrew@76.14.65.229] has joined #lisp 01:11:28 -!- vwvwvwv [~vwvwvwv@99-130-100-63.lightspeed.snantx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:11:57 another question for this template thing I am trying to load an image or the css using (:img :src "styles/prompt.gif" I have tried also prompt.gif and moving the git accordingly but apparently it doesn't load. Also tried with full path. Any idea ? :) 01:12:00 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A2B79.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 01:12:53 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 01:13:11 Yuuhi`` [benni@p5483B987.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 01:14:30 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 01:14:43 -!- Yuuhi` [benni@p5483B27C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:15:42 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:16:16 I use hunchentoot behind nginx--nginx takes care of the static files. 01:17:11 -!- dnolen [~user@108.54.21.53] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:17:15 that being said, there's still hunchentoot:create-folder-dispatcher-and-handler but not too sure how well that'd work with restas 01:17:32 joekarma: but inside hunchentoot does he has a /public folder or something? yes I will also use it behind apache or nginx with reverse proxy but just for testing it now I meant 01:17:45 ah okay joekarmaso must be a routing issue or something 01:17:55 joekarma I meant 01:17:58 actually I think there is a public folder defined by default now 01:18:06 joekarma: which framework you use ? 01:18:28 I'm using restas as well 01:19:12 joekarma: cool 01:19:40 joekarma: you do freelance jobs too ? 01:19:59 not generally no 01:20:48 joekarma: what did you build in lisp-web? 01:21:05 nothing I'm proud of and want to advertise 01:21:23 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 01:21:24 :) 01:21:47 -!- Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-71-191-38-245.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:21:51 -!- zolk3ri [~zolk3ri@unaffiliated/zolk3ri] has quit [] 01:21:56 joekarma: did you use pgsql or any db ? 01:22:36 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 01:22:40 so far no but I can't recommend taking the approach I have been taking 01:22:41 Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-71-191-38-245.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:22:53 I've tried rucksack, and am currently using flat files 01:23:31 I found it difficult to keep my rucksack from corrupting itself... Flat files are working fine. I think postmodern is what most use 01:23:50 I'm considering trying elephant 01:24:06 joekarma: yes I hard good things about postmodern and elephant 01:25:30 joekarma: did you do web programming in any other language before ? 01:25:54 -!- ingvar [~ingvar@c-89-160-55-242.cust.bredband2.com] has quit [Quit: Yaaic - Yet another Android IRC client - http://www.yaaic.org] 01:26:02 yep, ruby and php on the backend and javascript on the front 01:26:15 those are the main ones anyhow 01:26:24 joekarma: I did too in ruby and php. you think is much harder with lisp or harder ? 01:26:43 depends how familiar you are with lisp and what you're working on 01:27:13 I've found lisp very nice to work with now that I've got everything set up how I like 01:27:20 it was hard to get to that point though 01:27:40 joekarma: just started on lisp looking for simple things anyway doing this mostly for fun :) I think is more procedural than e.g. ruby or was mostly procedural and I kinda love the syntax :) 01:28:01 joekarma: you mean the environment setup or to become proficient ? 01:28:09 both 01:28:28 I was learning lisp and emacs simultaneously 01:29:00 peter seibel's book helped a lot for the former 01:29:11 -!- theBlackDragon [~dragon@213.219.164.45] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:29:17 mrxy [~yhiselamu@lap.ee] has joined #lisp 01:29:32 I am reading that now :) 01:29:45 -!- catmtking [~catmtking@108-224-122-111.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: catmtking] 01:29:47 on mac ccl has also an IDE so at least I don't have to learn emacs too ! 01:29:50 vwvwvwv [~vwvwvwv@99-130-100-63.lightspeed.snantx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:29:54 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:30:01 I suggest you try it at some point though 01:30:06 catmtking [~catmtking@108-224-122-111.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:30:21 I thought Hemlock was a version of emacs. 01:30:33 I also started out with CCL, and while it's an awesome implementation SBCL is really where the cutting edge is 01:31:03 Bike: right, though it barely feels like from CCL 01:31:38 well, it's an *attempt* at being a version of emacs anyhow 01:32:09 joekarma: on mac not even the restas hello world works with SBCL 01:32:26 joekarma: no idea why but tried with someone more advanced and couldnt' figure it out either 01:32:46 devnulll: you probably just need to download and install the most recent build of sbcl 01:32:53 I even tried ECL but apparently noting of restas seems to work with it 01:32:57 devnulll: and empty your .cache 01:33:04 works for me 01:33:09 joekarma: I did the latest from their site for mac os x 64 bit etc 01:33:15 joekarma: it does? you are using a mac ? 01:33:18 yes 01:33:24 *devnulll* wonders 01:33:25 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 01:33:26 Lion 01:33:31 haven't upgraded to mountain lion 01:33:36 joekarma: basically it runs but on the / page for examples gives not found 01:33:41 joekarma: ah this might be the reason :) 01:33:47 possibly 01:33:55 but I doubt it's unfixable 01:34:19 probably just need to compile sbcl from source or something 01:34:21 BrianRice` [~water@71-217-126-9.tukw.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 01:34:34 joekarma: I guess it is but as I do not use EMACS I think CCL makes is easier to have it all in one 01:34:39 joekarma: yes I think so too 01:35:04 but what is really different on sbcl for simple stuff ? e.g. simple web apps like a blog or so ? 01:35:22 did you ever try ECL ? 01:35:28 -!- antifuchs [~foobar@boots.boinkor.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:35:45 depends what you mean by "try" 01:35:54 cl-who, hunchentoot, etc all work on sbcl too 01:36:24 mrxy: oh interesting must be just mountain lion fighting with it I guess then or I did something wrong will try it again 01:36:55 antifuchs [~foobar@boots.boinkor.net] has joined #lisp 01:37:09 I tried weblocks too 01:37:15 no way to get it working on anything actually 01:37:16 devnulll: I'm trying to get away from saying I program with common lisp, and get in the habit of saying I program with SBCL -- implementation specific differences is where all the interesting things are 01:37:39 weblocks worked out of the box in here on both ccl and sbcl 01:37:44 -!- pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has quit [*.net *.split] 01:37:44 -!- guyal [~michaelmu@108-235-117-64.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 01:37:44 -!- bsamograd [~user@d50-99-109-246.abhsia.telus.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 01:37:44 -!- BrianRice [~water@71-217-126-9.tukw.qwest.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 01:37:44 -!- cracauer [cracauer@nat/google/x-qmvdpucxapklstws] has quit [*.net *.split] 01:37:44 -!- benny [~user@87.122.19.168] has quit [*.net *.split] 01:37:44 -!- paul0 [~paul0@177.132.100.193] has quit [*.net *.split] 01:37:44 -!- em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [*.net *.split] 01:37:44 -!- lide [~migrayn@83.145.213.33] has quit [*.net *.split] 01:37:44 -!- Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has quit [*.net *.split] 01:37:45 -!- BrianRice` is now known as BrianRice 01:38:11 em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 01:39:25 devnulll: if CCL is working for you there's no real pressing need to switch 01:39:27 Sorella_ [~quildreen@201-58-210-32.user.veloxzone.com.br] has joined #lisp 01:40:00 mrxy: I see I get this error with weblocks. > Error: Error Component :ASDF does not match version 2.23, required by # did you find weblocks better than restas ? 01:40:10 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:40:30 try this: (ql:quickload :weblocks-demo) (weblocks-demo:start-weblocks-demo) 01:40:48 i did not try restas 01:40:55 joekarma: yes I will focus on finishing the book and get some small apps done to get some experience since CCL works (and I love their IDE) I wouldn't move now expecially because with SBCL I will be then left without IDE or so :) but I will run some stuff on SBCL on the linux server their is certainly more stable 01:41:30 mrxy: with demo same erro Error: Error Component :ASDF does not match version 2.23, required by # 01:42:13 syamajala [~syamajala@dyn-160-39-229-131.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 01:42:21 devnulll: just be aware that this "IDE" you've grown so fond of is just a dumbed down version of what most lisper's have set up in Emacs. Not trying to be mean, but it's something to know 01:42:22 pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has joined #lisp 01:42:22 guyal [~michaelmu@108-235-117-64.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:42:22 bsamograd [~user@d50-99-109-246.abhsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 01:42:22 cracauer [cracauer@nat/google/x-qmvdpucxapklstws] has joined #lisp 01:42:22 paul0 [~paul0@177.132.100.193] has joined #lisp 01:42:22 lide [~migrayn@83.145.213.33] has joined #lisp 01:42:22 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 01:42:38 -!- Sorella [~quildreen@oftn/member/Sorella] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:42:53 devnulll: it's good that you can be productive with it, but down the road you'll probably want to give Emacs a real go 01:43:05 devnulll: and I'm not saying to switch now 01:43:59 devnulll: the darwin binary on the homepage is a bit older. Tools like homebrew will take of downloading and building the latest version. 01:44:08 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 01:44:45 devnull see if this helps. http://compgroups.net/comp.lang.lisp/weblocks-problem/1759931 01:45:15 is CCL ide emacs + slime in disguise? 01:45:18 pkhuong: for sbcl you mean ? 01:45:34 -!- guyal [~michaelmu@108-235-117-64.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: The Sleeper has Asleepen] 01:47:06 mrxy: thanks a lot. So I need to upgrade asdf apparently ? 01:47:36 looks like it. i haven't updated quicklisp in a while so i am not getting those errors 01:47:41 mrxy: nope CCL is Clozure so it has its own IDE + lisp no emacs there..for mac is great they even packaged it in an app. 1 click and go install 01:47:57 mrxy: how do I upgrade asdf ? :X 01:48:37 "Hemlock follows in the tradition of Emacs-compatible editors", etc 01:48:42 ah I see I need to do it manually apparently 01:49:48 devnulll: you install a fresher SBCL 01:49:56 but on the mac app the IDE (being hemlock in disguise may be) is really different than EMACS 01:50:15 devnulll: first (ql:update-client), then (ql:update-all-dists), then rm -rf ~/.cache/common-lisp , then restart lisp 01:50:17 should do it 01:50:18 I think 01:50:26 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:50:28 or does quicklisp update asdf? 01:50:29 pkhuong: I did also with ports and with threats support that is an issue on mac...that is sort of solved but still doesn't work well on mountain lion so would need to compile it I guess 01:50:52 the ide is hemlock, so far as I understand. no disguise involved. 01:51:17 -!- p_nathan1 [~anunknown@75.87.250.229] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:51:45 threads in the latest SBCL will work fine (as fine as CCL) on 10.8 01:51:53 my new strategy to keep everything working correctly is to never upgrade another apple product, ever 01:51:59 joekarma: yes all doen but 2.23 of ASDF is not on quicklisp this is why quicklisp doesn't upgrade anything I guess 01:52:12 I see 01:52:36 I don't think quicklisp updates asdf, it just uses what it can. 01:52:37 joekarma: lol I am sure you will have to upgrade at some point 01:52:54 mrxy: how is weblocks BTW ? is nice? easy ? 01:52:55 -!- pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has quit [*.net *.split] 01:52:56 -!- bsamograd [~user@d50-99-109-246.abhsia.telus.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 01:52:56 -!- cracauer [cracauer@nat/google/x-qmvdpucxapklstws] has quit [*.net *.split] 01:52:56 -!- paul0 [~paul0@177.132.100.193] has quit [*.net *.split] 01:52:56 -!- lide [~migrayn@83.145.213.33] has quit [*.net *.split] 01:52:56 -!- Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has quit [*.net *.split] 01:53:14 devnull post before last seems to explain what you need to do 01:53:27 http://blog.quicklisp.org/2012/08/library-problems-and-partial-fix.html oh, here it is. 01:54:30 devnull i haven't used it for anything serious yet but i liked it. 01:54:46 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 01:56:50 ok so I need to download it manually and install manually 01:56:55 and replaced the old right ? 01:57:09 yes 01:57:37 pardon my ignorance but where is the old one ? :) 01:57:51 guyal [~michaelmu@108-235-117-64.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:58:05 pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has joined #lisp 01:58:05 bsamograd [~user@d50-99-109-246.abhsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 01:58:05 cracauer [cracauer@nat/google/x-qmvdpucxapklstws] has joined #lisp 01:58:05 paul0 [~paul0@177.132.100.193] has joined #lisp 01:58:05 lide [~migrayn@83.145.213.33] has joined #lisp 01:58:05 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 01:58:34 I will just load it manually to see if it owrks 01:58:34 it's boundled with your implementation. you don't have to actually remove it, just make sure the new one is being loaded 01:59:10 ccl/tools/, looks like. 01:59:52 thanks bike 01:59:57 I will load it manually for now as in that post 02:00:53 gee, it also has defsystem. 02:01:16 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:02:51 the asdf nightmare will be resolved next weekend 02:03:29 -!- vwvwvwv [~vwvwvwv@99-130-100-63.lightspeed.snantx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:04:43 dnolen [~user@cpe-74-64-61-245.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:05:10 installing new version manually though should fix it for now? 02:05:26 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 02:08:06 that's an ominous thing to say, xach. 02:09:57 *joekarma* pictures xach pulling out a silenced ppk and pointing it at asdf's head in a dark alley 02:10:26 oK I loaded it but (ql:quickload :weblocks-demo) still says I have the old version so 02:10:29 pirateking-_- [~piratekin@unaffiliated/pirateking---/x-2885143] has joined #lisp 02:10:29 seems tricky 02:10:46 this said I think the weblocks dev should have actually seen this issue ..... and avoided that somehow 02:11:36 -!- pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:11:51 -!- paul0 [~paul0@177.132.100.193] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:12:14 pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has joined #lisp 02:12:23 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 02:13:12 it could be any one of the libraries weblocks depends on 02:13:14 there are lots 02:13:33 joekarma: I see but how comes restas works? luck ? :) 02:13:37 paul0 [~paul0@177.132.100.193] has joined #lisp 02:13:42 but I don't think we can expect that kind of foresight of anyone, least of all someone working for free 02:13:58 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 02:14:10 devnulll: restas probably works because it is a very thin layer on top of hunchentoot, and does not depend on nearly as many libraries as weblocks 02:14:13 joekarma: well no but if you do something and doesn't build not sure how but you should downgrade to the status where it worked 02:14:37 e.g. http://weblocks.viridian-project.de/features#newbie-friendly ;) 02:14:55 -!- Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has left #lisp 02:15:34 -!- Sorella_ [~quildreen@201-58-210-32.user.veloxzone.com.br] has quit [Quit: (quit :reason 'sleep)] 02:16:08 joekarma: may be for what I need restas is sufficient as long as I can have web forms and some simple stuff that it seems to have is fine 02:16:11 one of weblocks libraries is probably using asdf as a bag o' utils, as condemned in xach's article Bike linked to earlier 02:16:42 love the weblocks logo thou :) 02:16:44 a lot of library maintainers don't have the resources to test their systems in every os 02:17:00 devnulll: personally I prefer restas, I like simple things 02:17:08 joekarma: ah so probably is not working just on mac or just for me 02:17:35 I would say not working for mac users with some unknown subset of your setup 02:17:38 joekarma: yes I think is pretty nice and simple I really want as little as possible and that seems to be not as little as the webserver only but yet enough 02:17:49 joekarma: I tried caveman too. Seems very cool not many examples thou 02:18:32 joekarma: but isn't the asdf versioning OS indepenedent? like if they ask for a version (or one of their libs) that is not on quicklisp ...shouldn't be OS X fault 02:21:11 longlene [~loong0@58.240.83.66] has joined #lisp 02:21:35 Bacteria [~Bacteria@115-64-180-132.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 02:21:38 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 02:22:46 no, but other people have the option of upgrading... you do too, but you're still learning so it's more difficult for you, not having a binary available with the most recent version 02:23:03 -!- catmtking [~catmtking@108-224-122-111.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: catmtking] 02:23:04 idk 02:23:05 yes indeed 02:23:19 I am sure someone more experienced could sort it :) 02:23:33 which is what many library maintainers just assume 02:24:18 not only (a) someone more experienced could sort it, but (b) library's users are sufficiently experienced 02:24:50 which is sort of a nice thing about the culture in some ways I suppose... 02:25:40 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 02:32:05 -!- syamajala [~syamajala@dyn-160-39-229-131.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:32:35 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 02:37:16 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 02:39:22 am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has joined #lisp 02:43:32 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 02:46:08 xpoqz [~xpoqz@203.80-203-124.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 02:46:34 zodiac1111 [~zodiac111@101.68.104.230] has joined #lisp 02:48:06 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 02:48:39 -!- rootlocus [~rootlocus@124-169-1-165.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:54:18 -!- longlene [~loong0@58.240.83.66] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 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quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 04:20:31 -!- tsuru [~charlie@adsl-74-179-198-26.bna.bellsouth.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:21:47 santhoshkr [~santhosh@117.206.130.131] has joined #lisp 04:24:07 -!- fmu [~^fmu@unaffiliated/fmu] has quit [Quit: End of line] 04:24:12 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 04:24:25 -!- dnolen [~user@cpe-74-64-61-245.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 04:24:37 fmu [~^fmu@unaffiliated/fmu] has joined #lisp 04:25:45 (setq conscell '(a . b)) 04:25:46 I expect 04:25:46 (A . B) 04:25:46 But I got undefined variable: CONSCELL 04:26:26 You should get a more modern reference. You need to define the variable first, for example with (defvar *conscell*). 04:26:41 -!- pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:26:44 -!- pirateking-_- [~piratekin@unaffiliated/pirateking---/x-2885143] has quit [Quit: pirateking-_-] 04:31:14 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:35:45 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 04:38:47 santhoshkr: (let (conscell) (setq conscell '(a . b))) 04:39:06 -!- mjs2600 [~mjs2600@user-0c999kc.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:39:24 defvar and defparmeter define special variables, which are therefore SPECIAL, and whose specialness you may not want to deal immediately. 04:39:44 mjs2600 [~mjs2600@user-0c999kc.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 04:39:50 Yee [~On@42.110.249.229] has joined #lisp 04:39:55 In bad CL tutorials, just wrap any sequence of expression with free variables into a let for defining those free variables. 04:41:32 -!- catmtking [~catmtking@108-224-122-111.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: catmtking] 04:42:54 -!- joekarma [~joekarma@70-36-57-169.dyn.novuscom.net] has left #lisp 04:43:07 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:47:17 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 04:47:57 I have seen this IDE in a video tutorial. What IDE is this? I want to download and use. 04:47:58 http://www.tiikoni.com/tis/view/?id=816c790 04:49:02 might be LispWorks maybe? 04:49:16 been a while since I looked at commercial IDEs 04:52:05 -!- mjs2600 [~mjs2600@user-0c999kc.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 04:52:59 mjs2600 [~mjs2600@user-0c999kc.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 04:54:09 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-211-239.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 04:54:39 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-84-44-211-239.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:55:15 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:55:48 antifuchs, that is indeed lispworks 04:56:01 santhoshkr, ^ 04:56:21 (not a fan of it. 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[~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:21:19 -!- Bike [~Glossina@67-5-209-199.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: *vomit*] 07:21:38 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Quit: leaving] 07:22:02 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 07:22:55 -!- pnpuff [~aeiou@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has left #lisp 07:23:40 ^pnpuff [~aeiou@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 07:24:36 -!- Yee [~On@42.108.94.103] has quit [Quit: leaving] 07:24:43 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 07:24:50 pirateking-_- [~piratekin@unaffiliated/pirateking---/x-2885143] has joined #lisp 07:31:00 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 07:32:56 Cymew [~Cymew@c83-253-250-67.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 07:34:04 Hi SBCL experts. I just tried to run sh install.sh and got this odd error ".: 13: Can't open output/prefix.def" any ideas what that means? It's the latest source tgz from the officia; webpage. 07:35:11 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 07:35:28 francogrex [~user@109.130.19.150] has joined #lisp 07:37:57 zyg [d572afb9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.213.114.175.185] has joined #lisp 07:37:58 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@91-119-220-149.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:38:46 Morning.. Could SLIME cause cursor jumping? (I've set scroll-step to 1) 07:41:54 rootlocus [~rootlocus@124-169-1-165.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 07:42:04 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:42:14 m7w [~chatzilla@178.172.228.164] has joined #lisp 07:42:33 Hmm. It happens on 1.0.57 as well. I guess I must be doing something wrong, but what? 07:44:38 Yee [~On@42.110.30.111] has joined #lisp 07:45:11 Does the tar ball already come with that .def file? 07:45:13 Cymew: can you run clean.sh ; make.sh > foo 2&1 and paste that log? 07:46:01 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 07:47:12 zyg: http://pastebin.com/zKEBU2ac 07:51:31 zyg: the cursor or the mouse? 07:52:09 -!- Yee [~On@42.110.30.111] has quit [Quit: leaving] 07:52:18 I have (mouse-avoidance-mode 'cat-and-mouse) in my ~/.emacs, so when the cursor comes close to the mouse, the mouse jumps away. 07:52:42 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:53:02 Cymew: your make.sh should have gone through the make-config.sh step, check if output/prefix.def exist. 07:53:40 Sure, that file exists 07:54:14 Let me see if it does before I ran those commands, though. (Good catch Indecipherable) 07:54:51 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.19.150] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:55:05 Apparently it does not. 07:55:26 odd 07:56:14 OR maybe not, if the output dir is somehow created by the build scripts. I have a very vague idea of how sbcl builds. 07:56:32 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 07:56:58 Cymew: your system clock is accurate? 07:57:28 Is that important? I think it is. It should be running ntp. 07:57:41 Cymew: my guess is that very few uses install.sh so it's broken, and instead builds sbcl directly from the binary distribution. make.sh '~/sbcl-1.2.3-binary/src/runtime/sbcl --core ~/sbcl-1.2.3-binary/output/sbcl.core' 07:57:43 Cymew: if so, i'd git clone git@github.com:sbcl/sbcl to check whether it is a problem with the tarball 07:57:52 zyg: install.sh is not broken 07:58:31 Cymew: a clock that is wildly off can cause strange results with build systems. but i'm thinking of weeks, months, or years, not a few seconds or minutes 07:58:46 I had for some reason not strated ntp, but it was only differing a few seconds. 07:59:56 Yeah, I guess make depends on touch and time stamps and suchlike. I've never thought much about how sbcl builds, frankly. 08:00:30 zyg: You might be right that most people use the binary distro but it sounds odd that install.sh should be broken. 08:00:42 -!- zodiac1111 [~zodiac111@101.68.104.230] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:00:57 H4ns: I'll try to run from git and see if that makes any difference. 08:01:07 <^pnpuff> run? 08:01:32 compile first, obviously 08:02:10 <^pnpuff> build it! :) 08:02:24 Hmm. But git doesn't want to clone. What's the exact syntax anyway? I usually stayt away from git... 08:02:53 Permission denied (publickey). 08:02:59 Cymew: "git clone https://github.com/sbcl/sbcl" if you're not a github user 08:03:06 ok, I see. 08:03:09 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 08:04:34 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 08:05:24 Nope. No better luck doing it from a freshly checked out git branch. 08:05:49 then i'd say your operating system installation is somehow broken 08:06:05 It feels like something is wrong in my enviroment, but I'm pretty surelast time I just copied a line from INSTAL and was up and running. That was way back at 1.0.37 but still. 08:06:17 but maybe you can get more specific help in #sbcl 08:06:35 I wasn't even aware of that channel. 08:06:49 Many thanks to all you chimed in. Appreciated. 08:07:18 *Cymew* looks at his spelling and ponders coffee 08:07:54 -!- Daisy [~Daisy@109.58.240.109.bredband.tre.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:08:44 Daisy [~Daisy@109.58.240.109.bredband.tre.se] has joined #lisp 08:09:27 Fullmoon [~Fullmoon@h081217030118.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 08:09:29 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-215-120-246.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 08:11:23 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:12:13 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu1.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:13:12 -!- zyg [d572afb9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.213.114.175.185] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 08:13:22 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 08:16:01 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 08:18:05 -!- ioa [~xmike@dynamic2-250-004.usc.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 08:22:40 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:23:53 -!- 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[~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 09:55:55 -!- tensorpudding [~michael@108.87.16.220] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:56:28 I am using sbcl. By pressing up, down arrow keys, I can not navigate through the command history. Emacs keybindings like Ctrl-A, Ctrl-k are not working. I want a functionality something similar to bash command-line-editing. Can sbcl do that? Or should I use any other implementation of common lisp? 09:57:37 No, it can't. clisp integrates readline. You can use rlwrap with sbcl instead. 09:57:59 santhosh: you can use rlwrap 09:58:30 santhosh: most people here use slime or another real ide, though. a simple command line is just too limiting for real work. 10:01:31 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:05:35 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 10:07:13 benny [~user@87.122.135.15] has joined #lisp 10:07:54 Phoodus [~foo@ip68-98-92-29.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 10:08:44 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-55-25.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 10:09:42 Alice3 [~Alice@cpc3-grim12-0-0-cust856.12-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 10:12:13 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:14:54 -!- Phoodus [~foo@ip68-98-92-29.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:16:20 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 10:17:10 Tried rlwrap, working nicely. 10:23:04 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:26:58 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 10:28:28 -!- Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:29:23 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 10:33:53 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 10:35:16 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 10:39:50 -!- santhosh [~santhosh@117.206.132.180] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:40:20 fiveop [~fiveop@dslb-178-002-112-017.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 10:40:58 -!- dataJ [~david@cpc4-with5-2-0-cust838.1-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:42:29 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 10:44:09 gffa [~unknown@unaffiliated/gffa] has joined #lisp 10:47:10 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 10:53:08 you could try linedit from quicklisp 10:53:15 (ql:quickload "linedit") (linedit:install-repl) 10:53:20 oh, gone 10:54:43 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:57:50 -!- ^pnpuff [~aeiou@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has left #lisp 10:59:15 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 11:04:34 -!- paul0_ [~paul0@201.47.47.67.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:05:52 -!- pirateking-_- [~piratekin@unaffiliated/pirateking---/x-2885143] has quit [Quit: pirateking-_-] 11:06:17 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:06:50 Sorella [~quildreen@oftn/member/Sorella] has joined #lisp 11:07:08 jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@bl9-57-172.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 11:10:57 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 11:14:09 santhosh [~santhosh@117.206.133.210] has joined #lisp 11:14:18 fantazo [~fantazo@213.129.230.10] has joined #lisp 11:14:30 replore_ [~replore@122.135.249.222] has joined #lisp 11:15:17 Houl [~Parmi@unaffiliated/houl] has joined #lisp 11:16:12 ^pnpuff [~aeiou@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 11:16:23 zolk3ri [~zolk3ri@catv-89-132-196-182.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 11:17:06 (defun factorial (x) (if (eql x 0) 1 (* x (factorial (- x 1))))) 11:17:06 After the atom 'factorial', why 'x' is surrounded by parentheses? Is it absolutely necessary to surround the 'x' with parentheses? (I am following a tutorial). Is it syntactically correct to rewrite the above as: 11:17:06 (defun factorial x (if (eql x 0) 1 (* x (factorial (- x 1))))) 11:17:18 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:17:23 -!- ^pnpuff [~aeiou@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has left #lisp 11:19:42 the 'x' is surrounded in parentheses because it is a list of arguments 11:19:45 clhs defun 11:19:45 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defun.htm 11:19:46 there's just only one argument to factorial 11:20:12 santhosh: the syntax says it's an ordinary lambda-list. 11:20:13 it's called a lambda list, unless I'm wrong 11:20:14 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:20:18 ah 11:20:50 So the parentheses around x are must? 11:20:59 yes 11:21:08 The syntax of ordinary lambda lists is given in section "3.4.1 Ordinary Lambda Lists". 11:21:58 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 11:21:59 It's bad to use (eql x 0) here. 11:22:06 (factorial 4.0) --> infinite loop. 11:22:37 To compare numbers, use =. With (= x 0) or (zerop x), (factorial 4.0) --> 24.0 11:23:43 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.19.150] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 11:24:10 I think I am following bad tutorials (several are within the first 10 results of google search), I get so many "Undefined variable" messages. Can anybody recommend a good tutorial? 11:24:33 am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has joined #lisp 11:24:47 minion: tell santhosh about PCL 11:24:47 santhosh: have a look at PCL: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 11:24:57 http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ 11:25:18 What he said. 11:25:31 Who is minion? 11:25:36 a bot 11:25:45 a nice guy. 11:26:04 He understands English? 11:26:12 the one who will have our heads when the robot revolution starts 11:26:17 santhosh: I know no tutorial that does the right thing with respect to variables. 11:26:20 urandom__ [~user@p548A22B4.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:26:36 Just wrap any expression or group of expressions with free variable inside a let form defining those variables. 11:26:54 minion: Bonjour! 11:26:55 please stop playing with me... i am not a toy 11:27:22 minion: Hi, how are you? 11:27:22 what's up? 11:27:42 are we certain minion is content with being only a minion 11:27:56 minion: are you content with being only a minion? 11:27:57 yes 11:28:04 Adeon: yes, we're certain. 11:28:08 There is a webpage somewher (I thought it was on cliki) with some info on the bots around here. 11:28:26 minion: you are boring 11:28:26 what's up? 11:28:51 zolk3ri: boring answers to boring questions. 11:29:35 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:30:33 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 11:30:49 Indecipherable [~Indeciphe@41.13.28.98] has joined #lisp 11:32:10 nikodemus [~nikodemus@89.27.127.210] has joined #lisp 11:34:31 -!- galdor [galdor@78.193.30.12] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 11:35:13 (defun factorial (x) (if (eql x 0) 1 (* x (factorial (- x 1))))) 11:35:14 Though I write everything in a single line as above, I want the IDE to "AUTOFORMAT" as below 11:35:14 (defun factorial (x) 11:35:14 (if (eql x 0) 11:35:14 1 11:35:14 (* x (factorial (- x 1))))) 11:35:16 ;;; Any IDE which does the above thing? 11:36:49 Check out emacs lisp mode and slime. That is the closest you get to a fully featured IDE. 11:37:38 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:37:39 minion: tell santhosh about slime 11:37:40 slime: No definition was found in the first 5 lines of http://www.cliki.net/slime 11:37:44 santhosh: if emacs with slime doesn't have it, i doubt any other ide will 11:37:45 Interesting 11:37:54 minion: tell santhosh about emacs 11:37:54 emacs: No definition was found in the first 5 lines of http://www.cliki.net/emacs 11:38:09 Some things our minion is oddly ignorant about. 11:38:30 Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has joined #lisp 11:38:50 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-55-25.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:40:32 mucker [~mucker@183.83.240.198] has joined #lisp 11:40:59 santhosh: I think emacs has a function to do that but I can't remmember its name. 11:41:29 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 11:43:02 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-87-79-197-170.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 11:43:21 homie [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-197-170.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 11:47:56 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:52:33 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 11:52:49 santhosh: it's not slime that will indent that, it's paredit. 11:53:12 santhosh: you want both slime and paredit on emacs. 11:56:13 pirateking-_- [~piratekin@unaffiliated/pirateking---/x-2885143] has joined #lisp 11:56:48 -!- Indecipherable [~Indeciphe@41.13.28.98] has quit [Quit: used jmIrc] 11:59:39 Well. Lisp mode will do some indentation for you, but sure, paredit will take it one step further. I never liked it, though. 11:59:43 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:00:10 -!- jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@bl9-57-172.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: jcazevedo] 12:00:36 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Disconnected by services] 12:01:02 jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@85.242.57.172] has joined #lisp 12:01:19 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 12:02:09 (electric-pair-mode 1) ftw 12:02:40 -!- pirateking-_- [~piratekin@unaffiliated/pirateking---/x-2885143] has quit [Quit: pirateking-_-] 12:02:56 There's always more than one way to do it. :) 12:03:04 -!- impulse [~impulse@bas3-toronto48-1176441792.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 12:03:34 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 12:05:08 impulse [~impulse@bas3-toronto48-1176441792.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 12:10:40 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:12:51 Phoodus 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[~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 14:13:33 MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-116-150.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 14:14:04 Phoodus [~foo@ip68-98-92-29.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 14:16:19 -!- Phoodus [~foo@ip68-98-92-29.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:16:38 dfox [~dfox@89.177.105.49] has joined #lisp 14:18:52 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 14:19:53 pjb: paredit doesn't indent. slime-indentation does 14:20:12 but slime doesn't insert newlines, maybe paredit can do that 14:21:24 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 14:22:46 -!- mathrick_ [~mathrick@94.144.63.86] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:24:38 mathrick [~mathrick@94.144.63.86] has joined #lisp 14:26:34 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@107-202-145-90.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 14:26:59 kpreid [~kpreid@107-202-145-90.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 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#lisp 16:37:21 -!- fmu^ is now known as fmu 16:38:11 Hi all, do you know this type of counting: 000111, 001011, 010011, 100011, 001101, 010101, 100101, 011001, 101001, 110001, 001110,... 16:38:15 -!- agumonkey [~agu@208.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 16:38:58 Binary..? 16:38:59 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binary_numeral_system 16:39:17 it's not regular binary. doesn't look like gray code either. 16:39:26 agumonkey [~agu@208.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 16:39:33 it is not standard binary counting. There are always the same number of ones, three in this example. 16:39:48 clog [~nef@bespin.org] has joined #lisp 16:39:57 it's essentially enumerating the ways to choose 3 out of 6 items. In that order... 16:39:58 -!- mpstyler [~mpstyler@176.73.151.79] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 16:40:06 -!- fmu [~^fmu@unaffiliated/fmu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:40:29 I need its name and/or a fast algorithm to generate that serie... 16:40:57 http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=000111%2C+001011%2C+010011%2C+100011%2C+001101%2C+010101%2C+100101%2C+011001%2C+101001%2C+110001%2C+001110... 16:40:59 fmu [~^fmu@unaffiliated/fmu] has joined #lisp 16:41:11 did you transcribe the series accurately? 16:41:19 cmbinations, I suppose 16:41:24 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-76-254-16-20.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:41:53 it's the combinations in lexicographic order. 16:42:28 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:43:22 -!- replore [~replore@FL1-122-135-249-222.kng.mesh.ad.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:44:34 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-76-254-16-20.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 16:44:51 reminded me for a moment of a certain error prevention method, iirc 16:44:51 ikki [~ikki@189.247.242.218] has joined #lisp 16:45:53 -!- bitonic [~user@93-40-101-161.ip38.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:46:24 -!- mjs2600 [~mjs2600@user-0c999kc.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:46:46 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 16:48:13 canoso` [~user@62.37.18.71] has joined #lisp 16:49:09 Forty-Two [~seana11@pool-71-191-38-245.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:49:54 mjs2600 [~mjs2600@user-0c999kc.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 16:50:54 -!- Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-71-191-38-245.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:51:14 -!- canoso [~user@62.37.18.71] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:51:41 -!- gko [~user@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:52:18 -!- chimay [~chimay@unaffiliated/chimay] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.0-dev] 16:52:54 chimay [~chimay@unaffiliated/chimay] has joined #lisp 16:54:11 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:57:51 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 16:59:46 -!- Bacteria [~Bacteria@115-64-180-132.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Quit: Bacteria] 17:00:46 mpstyler [~mpstyler@176.73.151.79] has joined #lisp 17:00:55 -!- mpstyler [~mpstyler@176.73.151.79] has quit [Client Quit] 17:04:20 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:05:45 AlbireoX [~AlbireoX@76.78.168.247] has joined #lisp 17:06:20 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 17:10:39 -!- LiamH [~healy@pool-173-73-125-152.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:13:30 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:16:12 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-87-79-197-170.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:16:13 catmtking [~catmtking@108-224-122-111.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:17:04 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-137-122.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 17:17:45 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 17:18:00 -!- catmtking [~catmtking@108-224-122-111.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 17:18:53 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-197-170.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:19:25 -!- steffi_s [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1178025755.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: zzzz] 17:23:25 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.242.218] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:24:20 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:25:57 -!- ltbarcly [~ltbarcly@pool-71-116-78-211.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:26:26 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 17:29:22 blkt [~user@82.84.170.179] has joined #lisp 17:31:11 good evening everyone 17:31:47 -!- partagas [~partagas@h59n1c1o968.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 17:32:14 *easye* waves. 17:32:18 :) 17:32:29 Out the door to put everyone to sleep. The channel is yours. 17:32:40 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 17:33:40 -!- Bike [~Glossina@67-5-209-199.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:34:45 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 17:35:15 Bike_ [~Glossina@67-5-209-199.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 17:36:32 -!- mjs2600 [~mjs2600@user-0c999kc.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:37:08 mjs2600 [~mjs2600@user-0c999kc.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 17:37:53 -!- bsamograd [~user@d50-99-109-246.abhsia.telus.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:40:53 -!- pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:41:18 -!- KingsKnighted [~quassel@c-174-52-149-13.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:41:42 -!- Indecipherable [~Indeciphe@41.13.8.50] has quit [Quit: used jmIrc] 17:41:53 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:42:17 -!- mjs2600 [~mjs2600@user-0c999kc.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:42:20 ans [~luka@91.185.202.58] has joined #lisp 17:42:22 hi fe[nl]ix 17:42:31 mjs2600 [~mjs2600@user-0c999kc.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 17:45:03 where are the sources for minion kept? 17:45:32 -!- Faed is now known as Fade 17:45:36 mixed in with lisppaste, iirc 17:45:43 or maybe with cl-irc 17:45:44 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 17:45:49 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-137-122.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 17:47:51 -!- mjs2600 [~mjs2600@user-0c999kc.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:48:07 cl-irc, which is broken 17:48:58 in paste.lisp.org if you click the radio button to show line numbers and click "format", it throws a backtrace from hunchentoot. 17:49:10 p_l: broken, how? 17:49:11 what is dotimes supposed to return ? 17:49:20 Indecipherable [~Indeciphe@41.13.20.176] has joined #lisp 17:49:55 my (dotimes (i 2) (values (insert "hello"))), with (defun insert (arg) arg) does not return anything it seems 17:50:03 p_l: cl-irc is broken? 17:50:14 p_l: really? it should have been fixed as of late. 17:50:21 and anything progn related too 17:50:27 wbooze: nil, or the optional third value of the list there 17:50:35 my irc robot doesn't seem to be broken, although we are having some problems with colorize 17:50:38 p_l: and trunk was doing fine for the last 2 years as far as I'm aware. 17:50:43 wbooze: (dotimes (i 2 (values (insert "hello")))) 17:50:50 aaah 17:50:51 man 17:50:59 wbooze: you should learn CL some time, it's a cool language 17:51:04 -!- Bike_ is now known as Bike 17:51:24 hi blkt 17:51:25 ikki [~ikki@189.247.242.218] has joined #lisp 17:51:48 no worky 17:51:53 only returns one times 17:51:56 ehu: ah, right, the patches were accepted, right? 17:52:01 even with your syntax now 17:52:09 wbooze: uh, yes, of course, what else would it return 17:52:17 though I still have to test it against rizon, because it seems stricter on behaviour than freenode 17:52:38 that many times = 2 at least ? 17:52:52 p_l: yup. they're in 0.9.1 now. 17:52:53 Fade: till some patches were applied, cl-irc required manual modification to properly handle some stuff, iirc 17:52:59 you want it to return more than once? that doesn't make sense 17:53:03 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:53:08 if you want it to return a list or something you'll have to build it up yourself 17:53:23 does the version in quicklisp have those patches applied? 17:53:24 Fade: and I still haven't tested those patches on rizon, where the cl-irc bot I tried tended to get itself ip-banned 17:53:38 Fade: I suspect it might, haven't updated recently 17:53:52 the quicklisp cl-irc has some patches, yeah 17:54:03 I haven't run into too much trouble with cl-irc, but colorize has recently changed its api it seems. 17:54:33 vwvwvwv [~vwvwvwv@99-130-100-63.lightspeed.snantx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:54:35 Bike: I don't think so. 17:54:42 Bike: Xach doesn't apply patches. 17:54:52 ehu: well I mean, it has your last update 17:55:20 huh? what's the latest release? 17:55:22 *ehu* checks 17:55:24 september 17:56:40 that's weird. It's highly unlikely it's got all my updates. 17:56:53 I've committed some stuff last weekend, which means it was after the release. 17:56:54 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 17:57:10 the October release should contain the newest *released* cl-irc version. 17:57:12 0.9.1 17:57:30 well, it's got the pong fix, that's what I noticed :) 17:57:34 that's got even more fixes than the one now in Quicklisp 17:57:36 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@erudite.anarchism.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 257 seconds] 17:57:54 that was committed in August, yes. 17:58:01 but there's more in 0.9.1. 17:58:18 cool. 17:58:44 what is the canonical source control for cl-irc? 17:58:48 s/what/where 17:59:16 svn://svn.common-lisp.net/project/cl-irc/svn 18:01:00 -!- fmu [~^fmu@unaffiliated/fmu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:01:26 where is the source code for paste.lisp.org? 18:01:30 fmu [~^fmu@unaffiliated/fmu] has joined #lisp 18:01:31 (thanks ehu) 18:01:43 that's lisppaste. 18:01:55 -!- vwvwvwv [~vwvwvwv@99-130-100-63.lightspeed.snantx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:01:56 common-lisp.net/project/lisppaste will tell you. 18:02:13 *ehu* doesn't know. 18:03:26 -!- eldariof [~CLD@pppoe-222-244-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has quit [] 18:03:41 can anybody else verify this line number bug in paste.lisp.org? 18:03:50 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 18:04:15 steffi_s [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1178025755.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 18:04:19 yes. I can confirm. 18:05:02 okay, at least it isn't just my browser/system 18:07:20 unless we use the same browser... 18:07:26 (mine is Chrome on Windows) 18:07:58 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 18:08:19 it's an internal server error, I don't see how that would affect a simple request like that. but confirmed on linux/firefox anyway 18:08:48 chrome on linux here 18:09:04 although I have another report using firefox on OSX 18:09:09 LiamH [~healy@pool-173-73-125-152.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:10:23 ed_g [~chatzilla@67-5-162-87.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 18:10:30 the paste index lists some peculiar spam. 18:11:05 which is? 18:11:28 looks like movie pirates advertising their wares. 18:11:29 dlowe [dlowe@digital.sanctuary.org] has joined #lisp 18:11:49 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@89.27.127.210] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 18:14:44 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:16:29 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@lns-c10k-ft-02-t2-89-83-137-164.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 18:18:12 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-116-150.as43234.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:18:45 MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-116-150.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 18:18:54 -!- steffi_s [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1178025755.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: zzzz] 18:19:03 redline6561: ping 18:19:11 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 18:20:07 Fade: pon 18:20:07 *pong 18:20:09 What's up? 18:20:54 Tuxedo [~tuxedo@bas3-cooksville17-845466478.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 18:21:03 eli [~eli@racket/eli] has joined #lisp 18:21:26 'sec 18:22:00 steffi_s [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1178025755.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 18:22:48 Fade and I have an IRC bot implemented in Common Lisp which uses the colorize library to serve up source code files on a Web interface. 18:23:07 ^^^ 18:23:18 Oh nice. :) 18:23:18 The call we use is (colorize::colorize-file-to-stream :common-lisp source-file out-stream) 18:23:33 Yes, thanks for the library. It's been quite handy. :) 18:24:05 Sometime after your August updates, though, we started getting weird output. It's no longer breaking lines where there are line breaks in the source file, and we're also not seeing the indentation in source lines. 18:24:32 In the function html-colorization, there's a call to html-encode:encode-for-pre. It used to call encode-for-tt instead. 18:24:43 When I switch back to encode-for-tt, we get back our indentation and our line breaks. 18:25:13 Are we misusing the colorize library, or is this some kind of regression? 18:25:15 Aha. That must be from the patches I backported from lisppaste. 18:25:22 Yeah. 18:25:42 It's probably a regression. Would you create an issue with a small test case if possible? 18:25:44 It came in with the backport patch, all right. 18:25:51 Sure. 18:26:01 Where would you like it submitted? 18:26:06 It may take me a few days to get to it but I've got some vacation time coming up in 7 days so... 18:26:16 Tuxedo: the github page, http://github.com/redline6561/colorize 18:26:21 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 18:26:22 -!- steffi_s [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1178025755.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 18:26:31 Great, thanks. 18:26:47 I'll try to cut it down to something reportable. :) 18:26:47 :) 18:27:08 dude 18:27:15 fuxxored 18:27:33 what? lol 18:28:25 -!- chimay [~chimay@unaffiliated/chimay] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.0-dev] 18:29:21 Phoodus [~foo@ip68-98-92-29.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 18:29:22 Awesome. 18:30:08 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 18:30:14 Our bot serves up its own source at http://coruscant.deepsky.com:8080/harlie.git 18:30:26 if anyone's curious. :) 18:30:46 *redline6561* clicks that 18:30:57 err. backtrace. 18:31:02 The bounding indices 12 and NIL are bad for a sequence of length 11. 18:31:33 http://paste.lisp.org/display/132209 18:31:42 steffi_s [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1178025755.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 18:31:43 Tuxedo: ^^ isn't it nice when we test each others' software? :) 18:31:51 *Fade* laughs 18:33:47 -!- Phoodus [~foo@ip68-98-92-29.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:35:00 it's nice? ... depends! :) 18:35:32 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 18:36:34 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:38:26 *Tuxedo* larfs 18:38:32 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 18:38:42 -!- steffi_s [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1178025755.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: zzzz] 18:38:46 Okay, I should'a been more specific. 18:39:03 "git clone http://coruscant.deepsky.com:8080/harlie.git" will pull in the source. 18:39:11 steffi_s [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1178025755.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 18:40:58 you can peruse the source, here: http://coruscant.deepsky.com:8080/source 18:41:07 *redline6561* clicks that 18:41:21 heh. yeah. hard to read without newlines. 18:41:36 that's the feature that started the bug hunt! 18:41:37 :) 18:41:59 And it's all circular. :) 18:42:05 Clearly. :) 18:42:52 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:43:27 I've just patched that instance of the bot to call encode-for-tt instead, so if you hit the /source link again, you'll be able to see it a little more clearly. 18:43:42 ahh, excellent 18:43:56 jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@24.243.189.46.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 18:44:43 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.242.218] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:45:29 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:46:03 I like that feature. the colorized source links through to the clhs 18:47:42 Thanks again to the colorize lib'ry. 18:49:26 Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 18:49:33 I'm having trouble getting lispbuilder-sdl-cffi 18:49:44 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 18:49:59 Vicfred [~Grothendi@201.102.58.16] has joined #lisp 18:50:01 I get "Error loading shared object: /usr/local/lib/libSDL.so.8.0" 18:50:20 so it seems to find the file but fails to load it for some reason 18:50:51 I tried to load it on python and it has no problems so it seems to limited to lisp 18:50:55 are you on debian? 18:51:26 mjs2600 [~mjs2600@user-0c999kc.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 18:51:45 have you install libsdl-dev? 18:52:40 +ed 18:52:53 OpenBSD 18:53:10 lol 18:53:30 what lisp are you using? 18:53:35 sbcl 18:53:53 -!- Daisy [~Daisy@109.58.240.109.bredband.tre.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:54:04 why? 18:54:10 does the shared object exist on your system? 18:54:43 openbsd is not a common platform around here. do other cffi backed systems work for you? 18:55:08 Daisy [~Daisy@109.58.240.109.bredband.tre.se] has joined #lisp 18:55:08 Fade: just yesterday got cl+ssl working 18:55:18 -!- gffa [~unknown@unaffiliated/gffa] has quit [Quit: sleep] 18:55:25 well, find out if you have the shared object file, I guess. 18:55:32 maybe the error message wasn't lying. 18:56:19 Fade: well, it says "Error loading object" so it seems its finding but unable to load it 18:56:34 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:56:47 and this after I've added the correct library name for openbsd in the source 18:56:54 *Fade* defers to others around here with more knowledge of cffi 18:57:14 but you're living way out on the edge. :) 18:57:16 zmyrgel: are you mixing 32 and 64 bit builds? 18:57:22 pkhuong: no 18:58:21 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs27127210.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 19:00:48 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 19:03:30 ha, got more info when running from straight repl 19:04:06 apparently lispbuilder-sdl-cffi needs to have pthreads loaded before sdl 19:05:31 if you are in slime, the same info should be in the *inferior-lisp* buffer. 19:07:06 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:08:07 ltbarcly [~ltbarcly@pfsense.hackerdojo.com] has joined #lisp 19:09:13 -!- leo2007 [~leo@182.48.109.8] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.2.1] 19:11:59 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 19:12:21 Bike: i'm trying to get this up on mcclim with a few keystrokes and abbrevs enabled maybe, but i'm maybe too tired today http://paste.lisp.org/display/132214 19:12:25 -!- canoso` [~user@62.37.18.71] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:13:00 it works in the listener, but i couldn't get the reading display via the clim:accept things 19:13:15 hmm, adding pthread loading doesn't seem to get it to work on -current though 19:13:15 well i could just partly.... 19:13:42 trying to give both functionality in repl and listener and otherwise.... 19:14:48 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:14:52 i had several variations of the ucs-insert thing, that's why there's a count left...... 19:14:57 lol 19:15:27 well, i just read out that from mule-ucs in elisp/emacs actually 19:15:31 Nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 19:15:45 but it does more there.... 19:15:55 that's bare minimum here 19:18:21 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:20:20 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 19:20:52 -!- Alice3 [~Alice@cpc3-grim12-0-0-cust856.12-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [] 19:22:40 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@91-119-220-149.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:24:21 zmyrgel: is your sbcl built with threads? I don't know what the state of threading is on *bsd 19:24:56 -!- fiveop [~fiveop@dslb-178-002-112-017.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: humhum] 19:25:26 Fade: openbsd? inexistant. 19:26:17 pkhuong: ... does OpenBSD support concurrent threads at all? 19:26:30 though I'll admit of not keeping track of OpenBSD... 19:27:11 Fade: sbcl doesn't support threads on OpenBSD 19:27:14 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:27:44 though next release of OpenBSD has kernel-level threads so I hope the threading on apps will pick up 19:28:18 I think your options are limited in that case. 19:28:42 perhaps a VM will help in the short term. 19:28:52 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@46.147-67-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 19:28:52 -!- Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@46.147-67-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Changing host] 19:28:52 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 19:28:57 clozure claims thread support on freebsd. 19:29:01 if you're linux adverse. 19:29:17 zmyrgel: try to ask also here: http://www.daemonforums.org/ :p 19:29:18 Fade: so does SBCL. Works very well there. 19:29:24 cool 19:30:03 vwvwvwv [~vwvwvwv@99-130-100-63.lightspeed.snantx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:31:26 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 19:32:19 doesn't seem to be any cl implementation supporting threads on openbsd yet 19:32:49 without OS level threading, i guess the only option would be greenlets of some kind. 19:32:57 does bordeaux-threads load on your sbcl? 19:33:08 ikki [~ikki@189.247.242.218] has joined #lisp 19:34:19 -!- Indecipherable [~Indeciphe@41.13.20.176] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:34:27 -!- Daisy [~Daisy@109.58.240.109.bredband.tre.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:34:32 -!- setmeaway [~setmeaway@119.201.52.168] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:34:57 Fade: on my server yes, on my laptop no 19:35:00 setmeaway [setmeaway3@119.201.52.168] has joined #lisp 19:36:31 get lot of undefined function bordeaux-threads:make-recursive-lock on laptop (runs OpenBSD-current) 19:36:50 -!- devnulll [~devnull@174-30.60-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:37:30 well, the simplest answer is to load up a VM to use the package, or you're destined for a lot of hack and slash. 19:37:47 Daisy [~Daisy@109.58.240.109.bredband.tre.se] has joined #lisp 19:38:37 Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 19:38:53 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:39:33 wchun [~wchun@81-232-46-25-no38.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 19:40:33 lichtblau [~user@port-92-195-127-233.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 19:41:08 devnulll [~devnull@174-30.60-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 19:42:05 (So I'm asking more on behalf of the rest of #sbcl than for myself, because I'm not even running Mac OS. But:) 19:42:19 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 19:42:21 Nobody's running Mac OS anymore. 19:42:34 I am ! 19:42:40 also not windows. they're both totally dead. 19:42:48 devnulll: probably not. 19:42:50 There are reports of sb-concurrency test failures when building latest SBCL on Mountain Lion. Obviously we need help testing. 19:43:00 So -- has anyone other than H4ns seen this? 19:43:03 devnulll: do you use OpenTransport to connect to the Internet? 19:43:10 yes confirmed. SBCL concurrency not working here (mountain lion, retina laptop) 19:43:22 Mountain Lion is not Mac OS. It's Mac OSX. 19:43:23 phew. 19:43:28 OpenBSD has errors too on sb-concurrency, not suprisingly :) 19:43:29 -!- ltbarcly [~ltbarcly@pfsense.hackerdojo.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:43:38 pjb: thank you for your valuable, helpful insights! 19:43:44 oh right sorry :) I was too quick pjb but I do have another mac with mac os tbh 19:44:02 What we're asking for are observations of the specific failure mode seen in this launchpad entry: https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/1058588 19:44:14 devnulll: yes, I also have a Mac OS machine, stored in a garage, 2000 km away. 19:44:24 If it affects you: Can you reproduce it reliably, and if so, how? 19:44:50 pjb: oh I see. Well apple makes it hard to use Mac OS nowadays... if not almost impossible 19:45:04 if someone needs to do some tests on a mac 19:45:08 -!- BountyX [~andrew@76.14.65.229] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:45:13 I have one or two mac servers in the U.S: that I am not using a lot 19:45:26 mac = mac os x :) 19:45:27 It doesn't make Mac OS hard to use. System 7.0.8 is still nice. 19:45:32 No. 19:45:45 I recently managed to kick a 20+ year old mac habit. 19:45:45 Mac OS is not Mac OS X. 19:46:17 and I have a dual cpu quadra 8500 with os8, so I"m with pjb. :) 19:46:31 pjb: clearly not :) 19:47:06 BountyX [~andrew@76.14.65.229] has joined #lisp 19:48:49 mjs2600_ [~mjs2600@user-0c999kc.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 19:48:58 -!- mjs2600 [~mjs2600@user-0c999kc.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:49:51 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:51:09 -!- steffi_s [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1178025755.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: zzzz] 19:51:41 SrPx [bad4be96@gateway/web/freenode/ip.186.212.190.150] has joined #lisp 19:51:48 Is there a CL for browser like ClojureScript? 19:52:16 -!- pnpu1f [~aeiou@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has quit [Quit: Bye.] 19:52:19 there's lispyscript, but it's not CL 19:52:22 SrPx: parenscript? 19:52:45 daimrod: hardly a cl either 19:53:09 <_tca> http://slip.lisperator.net/ 19:53:19 daimrod: thanks 19:53:27 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 19:53:42 i clearly misunderstood the question. 19:54:36 H4ns: well, a subset of CL 19:54:51 -!- fmu [~^fmu@unaffiliated/fmu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:55:14 fmu [~^fmu@unaffiliated/fmu] has joined #lisp 19:55:49 macdice [~user@46-65-10-191.zone16.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:55:58 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-164-150.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:57:56 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.242.218] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:58:09 replore [~replore@FL1-122-135-249-222.kng.mesh.ad.jp] has joined #lisp 19:59:52 -!- Daisy [~Daisy@109.58.240.109.bredband.tre.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 20:00:01 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:00:08 -!- jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@24.243.189.46.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:00:35 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.179.236] has joined #lisp 20:01:08 -!- replore [~replore@FL1-122-135-249-222.kng.mesh.ad.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:04:06 Daisy [~Daisy@109.58.212.151.bredband.tre.se] has joined #lisp 20:04:48 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 20:05:44 -!- BountyX [~andrew@76.14.65.229] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:06:26 -!- ed_g [~chatzilla@67-5-162-87.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.2 [Firefox 15.0.1/20120907231835]] 20:06:34 canoso` [~user@158.pool85-53-1.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 20:07:45 SrPx: you could embed ECL into Firefox. 20:08:22 Then you could try to convince Firefox maintainer to take your patch, and web designers to write CL code instead of javascript. 20:08:46 seangrove [~user@c-71-202-126-17.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:09:00 aka "fat chance" 20:10:38 -!- zeissoctopus [~zeissocto@183178133120.ctinets.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:11:08 maxm [~user@unaffiliated/maxm] has joined #lisp 20:11:25 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:11:48 BountyX [~andrew@76.14.65.229] has joined #lisp 20:12:40 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 20:13:42 What is Common Lisp's Noir (the Clojure lib?) 20:13:57 that allows short syntax for html 20:14:03 replcated [~user@24-217-97-210.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 20:14:16 cl-who? 20:14:18 more like Noir is Clojure's cl-who or yaclml :) 20:14:36 sexml 20:14:37 and sexml 20:15:00 http://www.cliki.net/HTML%20generator 20:15:03 wasn't Noir a bit more than that? 20:15:06 fantazo [~fantazo@213.129.230.10] has joined #lisp 20:15:11 yes yes 20:15:48 Xach: thanks for the QL change for ABCL! 20:16:11 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 20:16:59 ehu: No problem. 20:17:08 *Xach* has a day off on wednesday and hopes to do even more quicklisp stuff 20:17:18 SrPx: hunchentoot + cl-who is a common starting point for web dev. (google "lisp for the web") 20:17:34 Haven't worked in CL on a Mac recently. Which implementation is the best free or paid option currently? 20:17:47 Fare [~fare@c-68-81-138-209.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:17:53 replcated: there are several good options 20:17:55 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-96-178.lns20.bne4.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 20:18:01 replcated: clozure! 20:18:19 Xach: is xcvb compiling in quicklisp now? 20:18:19 Fare, memo from flip214: some small things found, will send email 20:18:19 replcated: clozure cl is pretty great, sbcl is very popular, and a lot of people also use lispworks 20:18:24 Fare: yes 20:18:30 thanks a lot! 20:18:46 I'm locked in the doubt it I use CL or Clojure, I liked Clojure's readers {} [] #(..) etc, also it looks more popular, but I have heard you can mimic those on CL, is that true? 20:18:51 if I use * 20:19:20 SrPx: theoretically possible, but not commonly done 20:19:28 why? 20:19:29 btw, I'm preparing an official common lisp style guide for Google, and after merging in the previous documents from ITA and google, I'm fishing for suggestions from IRC. 20:19:32 SrPx: yes, but don't bother, because the readers are lame. 20:19:35 SrPx: reader macros for [] and {} are trivial, but not really missed 20:19:43 why? 20:19:52 what's good about them? 20:20:00 #(1 2 3) in CL is [1 2 3] in clojure 20:20:03 the only reason I'm not sticking to cloj is because I guess I could do more expressive stuff with reader macros 20:20:15 the style guide will be visible from the outside world, so I might as well make it a generally useful document 20:20:19 nikodemus: doesn't clojure's [] actually evaluate the contents? 20:20:24 no 20:20:26 oh,true 20:20:33 {} isn't really missed because maps aren't used the same way as in clojure 20:20:39 why!? 20:20:58 because of reasons. For small datasets, we just use alists or plists. 20:21:02 because there are better ways to repreddent data 20:21:03 maps are importants, how would you define an object with attributes 20:21:03 [] #() only share the same name though 20:21:06 if you like clojure-style pure data structures, lisp-interface-library is for you... 20:21:07 and for bigger datasets, {} isn't really useful. 20:21:15 because cl isn't so centered on sequences and collections 20:21:26 because we have multiple values 20:21:33 and keyword arguments 20:21:46 and cookies 20:21:54 SrPx: (defun mkhash (&rest keys-and-values) (apply #'alexandria:plist-hash-table keys-and-values)) (mkhash :foo 1 :bar 2 :baz 3) 20:21:56 what would be cl approach to defining a character class with a position, hp, etc? 20:21:56 in most places where you'd use {:foo foo :bar bar} you use something else in cl 20:22:23 SrPx: defclass 20:22:30 Thanks Xach. Closure cl and LispWorks are what I was debatting, using CCL until I can spring for LW. 20:22:32 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 20:22:40 okay 20:22:43 s/tt/t/ 20:22:47 replcated: also consider if you'd *need* LW 20:22:50 SrPx: (defgeneric character-hp (char)) (defgeneric character-position (char)) ... (defmethod character-hp ((char hash-table)) (gethash 'hp char)) :) 20:23:01 I know I would love to use it (small windows executables! :P) 20:23:04 (defclas character () ((position :initform nil :accessor position-of) (hp :initform (random-hp) :accessor hp-of))) 20:23:08 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:23:13 (defmethod character-hp ((char list)) (cdr (assoc 'hp char))) 20:23:16 you might want to shadow CL:CHARACTER 20:23:31 obviously :) 20:23:39 Fare: or define it in package that doesn't use :CL :) 20:23:48 p_l: that might be painful. 20:23:49 is not that ... too verbose ? 20:23:57 Fare: not necessarily 20:24:10 SrPx: M-Tab usually makes that moot 20:24:12 SrPx: verbose compared to what? 20:24:26 to definterface? no 20:24:35 SrPx: but you get a clos class, so you get all the power of thet, with {} you don't even get a type. 20:24:35 to defrecord? no 20:24:36 SrPx: which one? Try (defstruct game-character (hp x-pos y-pos z-pos)) 20:25:01 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 20:25:14 you can also make short macro that will generate objects following certain template 20:25:36 in cloj from what I understood it would be simply (defmulti hp :type) (defmethod double-of-hp :character [c] (hp c)) (double-of-hp {:hp 5}) >> 10 20:26:11 I cant understand what those :initform :accessor are ? But I guess I could make a macro to simplify it too, right? 20:26:19 yes 20:26:24 {:type :character :hp 5} * 20:26:24 I recommend you read PCL for a start 20:26:39 SrPx: accessor automatically defines methods for reading and writing slots, initform is like a default value. 20:26:57 :s 20:27:02 SrPx: I think either sykopomp or stassats made once a bit of APL in reader macros and unicode-named functions... 20:27:05 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 20:27:14 p_l: stassats 20:27:15 Clojure compared to APL is like COBOL 20:27:22 sykopomp: thx 20:27:40 ltbarcly [~ltbarcly@pfsense.hackerdojo.com] has joined #lisp 20:27:42 https://github.com/stassats/closer-apl/blob/master/examples.lisp 20:27:50 p_l: My main driver for LW is SMP down the road, for some compute intensive parallelizable exploratory programming I need to do. 20:27:56 Clojure compared to APL is like COBOL 20:27:57 what do you mean? 20:28:04 SrPx: verbose 20:28:10 CL has nicer concurrency support, too. 20:28:22 too many choices :( 20:28:24 but so is CL , no? 20:28:26 replcated: ah. Well, yeah, LW got nice primitives there 20:28:36 CL, nicer concurrency support than Clojure???? 20:28:46 SrPx: he implemented a bit of that in CL 20:28:47 indeed 20:28:54 http://random-state.net/files/nikodemus-cl-faq.html # for SrPX 20:29:11 replcated: CCL has pretty good SMP support, too. 20:29:27 Fare: How did you end up with that job? 20:29:28 i should add a "how does it compare to clojure?" one of these days, i guess 20:29:50 Fare: how do you want to do concurrency? Pick your poison, there's like 2-3 libraries available for every which way I know about managing concurrency/parallelism. 20:30:08 SrPx: https://github.com/stassats/closer-apl/blob/master/examples.lisp <--- look at that and think if you can make that compile in Clojure 20:30:26 sykopomp, too many 80% solutions. 20:30:40 wow, how? 20:30:40 sykopomp: clojure concurrency == java concurrency + support for transactions, so, no, we don't really compete with that too well 20:30:42 Fare: so pick the ones that are 90-95% 20:30:47 Xach: which job? writing a style guide? 20:30:53 SrPx: the repo has the code to make this happen 20:31:04 Fare: yes. 20:31:16 dlw died, that's how. 20:31:30 SrPx: https://github.com/stassats/closer-apl/blob/master/closer-apl.lisp <--- most of it 20:31:33 but then clojure doesn't really compete when it comes to debuggability, compiler diagnostics, or performance 20:31:49 nikodemus: what about cl-stm and company? 20:31:58 that would have been his job. 20:32:18 Phoodus [~foo@ip68-98-92-29.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 20:32:19 sykopomp: last time i looked at cl-stm i was not impressed 20:32:29 lparallel looked very nice, though 20:32:34 p_l: okay but also, (:a {:a 5 :b 6}) will work in clojure. that is, a keyword can act as a function that receives a hash and acesses an element. this is impossible in cl right? 20:32:40 He edited the previous guide at ITA. We wanted to merge with the one at Google as part of merging ITA into Google. 20:32:53 No one else stepped forward as dlw became sick. 20:33:15 SrPx: not impossible, but doesn't work like that out of the box, no 20:33:20 Fare: google has a cl style guide? 20:33:22 -!- answer_42 [~answer_42@gateway/tor-sasl/answer42/x-66983568] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8] 20:33:26 SrPx: also it is a bad idea. 20:33:31 Fare: I would love to read a draft once one is available. If it is tweeted or posted on lisp reddit I'm guaranteed to spot it. Less likely if just mentioned in #lisp. 20:33:37 and no-one cares. clojure has lots of good bits, but that is a terrible trap 20:33:40 Unless I'm named specifically, of course. :) 20:34:04 (:foo ) => nil, silently, no error, nothing 20:34:28 maps acting as function is a much better idea 20:34:38 H4ns, it does. I seems to be geared toward publishing both externally and internally, but I don't know the external URL, if any. 20:34:39 *maxm* feels he need to catchup on #lisp 20:34:41 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:34:50 nikodemus active, what other wonders did i miss :-) 20:35:11 ( :foo) =| error 20:35:19 nikodemus: And yeah, adding a comparison with Clojure in the faq is useful at some point but certainly not a priority. :) 20:35:54 Googling for it, I suppose it will eventually be available as part of http://google-styleguide.googlecode.com/ 20:35:58 i have new characterization for cl: the local optimum between C++ and Clojure 20:36:03 *pavelpenev* tried writing a comparison 2-3 times, but never could get rid of his biases. 20:36:09 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:36:27 but it's not there yet (and my merge of the ITA LISP-STANDARDS.rest hasn't been committed to Google's repo yet). 20:36:36 also, cl is not a lisp1, which is a HUGE point in its favor for me 20:36:50 lisp1 is a bug-generator for large programs 20:36:59 nikodemus: how it is possible? 20:37:03 nikodemus, less so with a good hygienic macro system. 20:37:14 nikodemus: maps act as a function on clojure too 20:37:16 Fare: macros aren't the issue at all 20:37:19 ... nikodemus how much does a good namespacing/module system help? 20:37:20 *Fare* prefers lisp2, but isn't afraid of lisp1. 20:37:23 pavelpenev: why it is a bad idea? 20:37:32 Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 20:37:43 Does R7RS finally add one that everyone will implement? 20:37:47 SrPx: that's what i ment. clojure's maps acting as functions is a good idea. clojure's keywords acting as function is ... less stellar :) 20:38:01 also what Fare said, I heard clojure functions and variables have different namespaces? so you have to use a macro to access a function's value or something? that's weird? 20:38:12 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 20:38:19 nikodemus: it is useful in the multiple dispatch case, for example 20:38:25 nikodemus, I don't see Scheme programmers generating more bugs than CL programmers. Certainly, lisp1 requires a different set of habits, which may clash with lisp2 habits. 20:38:32 also, library support? is not clojure more popular? and all the java background and stuff? 20:38:53 any word on that? 20:38:59 SrPx: you're coming to a wine bar, asking about why beer is more popular. 20:39:07 i don't see actual evidence of clojure being more popular, or vice versa 20:39:07 I knew someone would say that 20:39:13 it's like speaking a foreign language -- concepts don't map 1-1 with those of your native language. 20:39:47 nikodemus: it recently overtook CL on github, iirc. 20:39:48 H4ns: dont understand it as "justify your existence", im genuinously asking for why you prefer it, you have your reasons and I want to know them, see 20:40:02 so I can share them with you and make a choice 20:40:36 nikodemus, Clojure is the #23 most popular language on GitHub. Common Lisp is the #28 most popular language on GitHub. 20:40:46 https://github.com/languages/ 20:40:50 huh ? 20:40:54 who did the ranking ? 20:41:04 github, by number of projects 20:41:07 and what criteria ? 20:41:12 ah 20:41:33 not a real diff, and can change fast..... 20:41:33 still may be that ranking is not so reliable just shows more people using clojure are on github 20:41:35 SrPx: but why do you think that we even chose? consider that we're using cl because we like it specifically, not because we dislike something else. 20:41:42 yeah 20:41:44 eheh 20:41:49 actually I am not surprised as many ppl using common lisp don't use github :) 20:41:58 SrPx: also, consider that programming language choice is rarely just a means of a rational process. 20:41:59 wbooze, it did change fast. Clojure didn't exist a few years back. 20:42:12 just do you own work, don't look at others then..... 20:42:33 Fare: there tends to be an order of magnitude more global functions, and an approximately equal number of local function vs non-function bindings. if local bindings can shadow global ones, then and compiler doesn't enforce static typing, it's too bloody easy to miss one when you rename things 20:42:47 clearly e.g. more ruby people use github vs php coders but php is more used than ruby even if github stats suggest otherwise ;) 20:43:01 meh 20:43:10 nikodemus, a good module system can help tremendously there -- more so than CL's quite primitive package system. 20:43:40 -!- guyal [~michaelmu@108-235-117-64.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: guyal] 20:43:40 nikodemus, in Racket, I only require those modules I need, and can prefix them if needed. 20:43:59 Fare: we've been bit by this over and over again in clojure, enough so to instate a ban on shadowing names from clojure core and a couple of other places 20:44:19 shadowing of global symbols rarely happens without being quickly fixed -- if at all. 20:44:39 I admit I am not familiar with modularity in clojure. 20:44:41 I have a regression in ABCL where we reject structure redefinitions which are not /exactly/ EQUALP. However, CLICKR uses a gensymed constructor name, which hence isn't EQUALP... Yet CLICKR expects that to work. How do other implementations handle this scenario? 20:44:52 not that those are hard or deep bugs, but they're a waste of time 20:45:03 (and how would you like your implementation to behave?) 20:45:29 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:45:36 ehu: what do you mean structure redefinition? in a defconstant? 20:45:38 H4ns: i did not said you dislike something 20:45:41 dont worry 20:45:44 thanks 20:46:11 Fare: (DEFSTRUCT symbol-xyz ...) (DEFSTRUCT symbol-xyz ...) 20:46:22 SrPx: there are lots of good reasons to use clojure. there are also lots of good reasons to use any number of other languages 20:46:40 learn lots of languages and then you can make an informed choise 20:46:43 Fare: this situation generally happens when compiling and in the same session loading the structure. 20:47:04 SrPx: i did not mean to express offense. it is just that we may not even be able to compare cl to anything else. coming up with clojure feature after clojure feature and asking us to comment how we'd do that in cl is kind of pointless. 20:47:08 you can't really know a language until you've written at minimum 10k lines in it 20:47:10 Fare: because DEFSTRUCT wraps its output in EVAL-WHEN with a compile-toplevel component. 20:47:14 -!- lolprog [~let@94-225-44-126.access.telenet.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:47:36 nikodemus: I like this ruke 20:47:50 Quetzalcoatl_ [~Administr@cpe-75-186-5-185.cinci.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:47:56 nikodemus: rule* 20:47:58 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.179.236] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:48:08 ehu: oh. 20:48:24 i'm starting to be fairly familiar with a certain subset of clojure, but there are parts i've not even touched 20:49:25 ehu: I suppose you should emit warnings in this case, that could be muffled, in which case arguments with same position would be compatible. 20:49:28 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 20:49:50 nikodemus, when you have time, please publish a write-up about your experience! 20:49:52 but can I ask some cl stuff if you dont mind? 20:50:00 SrPx, of course! 20:50:13 SrPx: that is what this channel is about, mostly. 20:50:17 wormphlegm [~wormphleg@c-50-131-44-231.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:50:34 SrPx, but it's more productive to start from the high-level (how do you resolve this kind of problem) than the low-level (how do you emulate this feature). 20:50:43 for example, reader macros are like sequence of strings that are recognized by the compiler/interpreter/notsure and converted into another form, right? 20:51:21 I guess I should relax the checks to be slot definitions and :INCLUDE. other stuff may apparently differ between redefinitions. 20:51:22 SrPx, no - a CL reader macro takes the stream as input, returns a form after consuming some of the stream. 20:51:26 no strings involved. 20:51:45 so if I wanted I could make this macro: $test to convert into (lambda [obj] (get key obj)) (I know those words are probably wrong but you get the idea) 20:51:49 I'll check to see which items affect structure in-memory layout and restrict equality to that. 20:51:59 Fare: pardon? 20:52:01 -!- Daisy [~Daisy@109.58.212.151.bredband.tre.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:52:15 SrPx: that is true, and your code would then look un-idiomatic 20:52:17 streams of characters are no sequence of strings. 20:52:50 SrPx: if you want an example of advanced reader-macrology, see lambda-reader 20:52:59 or reader-interception 20:53:04 Daisy [~Daisy@109.58.212.151.bredband.tre.se] has joined #lisp 20:53:22 for more trivial examples, I believe ironclad has some simple reader-macros. 20:53:31 for byte vectors. 20:53:52 If you dabble in reader-macros, please use named-readtables 20:54:19 I also recommend asdf's :around-compile to setup your named-readtables. 20:54:27 ._. 20:55:08 SrPx: You don't know the *POWER* of the dark siiidee.... 20:55:20 Join me etc etc 20:55:23 thanks but I'm really just asking if what I said was possible, I do not understand what you are talking about at all 20:55:32 -!- BountyX [~andrew@76.14.65.229] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:55:41 redline6561: i want demonstratioons 20:55:44 aslan69 [~aslan69@c-75-71-21-183.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:55:59 I kind of understand how powerful CL should be 20:56:13 SrPx, everything is POSSIBLE in CL -- not everything is EASY. 20:56:34 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:56:34 (set-macro-character #\$ (lambda (stream char) (declare (ignore char)) (let ((key (read stream t nil t))) `(lambda (x) (getf x ',key))))) 20:56:36 SrPx, some things are only manageable if you use the proper infrastructure from existing libraries 20:56:47 ($foo '(bar 1 foo 2 quux 3)) => 2 20:56:48 (or, sometimes, from not-yet-existing libraries) 20:57:01 doesn't make it a good idea :) 20:57:07 that would be easy or hard? converting $test into a lambda function that returns the string "test" for example 20:57:17 easy 20:57:17 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-116-150.as43234.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:57:40 clhs: set-macro-character 20:57:48 -: 20:57:52 *nikodemus* kicks bots 20:58:08 oh well, bedtime anyways. be nice 20:58:10 clhs set-macro-character 20:58:10 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_set_ma.htm 20:58:15 nikodemus: :) 20:58:22 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs27127210.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:58:22 (set-macro-character #\$ (lambda (stream char) (declare (ignore char)) (let ((key (read stream t nil t))) `(lambda (x) (declare (ignore x)) ,(string-downcase key))))) 20:58:37 are there libs for short syntax for lambdas and maps? not bringing clojure into it but I like some of those decisions, (fn [] (...)), {:a b}, [1 2 3], etc 20:58:53 not about clojure, about the syntax itself 20:58:54 for lambdas, yes. For maps, no one bothered. 20:59:15 I dont get it, maps are fundamental pieces of my programs 20:59:22 you think it is bad? 20:59:24 how is {:a b} so much better than (mkhash :a b) ? 20:59:25 SrPx: how about learning Lisp on Lisp's terms before spending all your time doing microoptimizations to its syntax? 20:59:37 SrPx: you can also ask emacs to convert lambda to  20:59:44 SanderM [~quassel@vhe-400104.sshn.net] has joined #lisp 20:59:45 or (list :a b) 20:59:50 If you think it is, a reader-macro is pretty easy to write -- but once again, please use named-readtables to manage that. 21:00:04 named-readtables are what? 21:00:05 daimrod, or you can use lambda-reader 21:00:25 I'm sad to see competing libraries, but cl-syntax is actually maintained 21:00:29 "competing" 21:00:36 SrPx: a mechanism to manage your readtables, instead of everyone's reader-macro stepping on everyone's toes 21:00:39 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 21:00:45 to be honest if possible I'd not use even clojure's syntax but something like [a:1 b:2], the shortest possible 21:00:56 Xach: cl-syntax does the job of named-readtables, better, and is maintained? 21:01:10 Fare: hmm I see, but do I need it if I only use my code internally 21:01:12 SrPx: you seem to be optimized for a small part of programming. 21:01:16 *optimizing 21:01:26 redline6561: perhap 21:01:27 SrPx: to be honest, the number of charaters typed doesn't really matter in programming. 21:01:35 +1 21:01:40 SrPx, no, but it's cleaner. 21:01:51 I think it does for reading and maintening it later but it is another discussion... 21:01:54 the number of thoughts thought matters. 21:01:57 -!- lichtblau [~user@port-92-195-127-233.dynamic.qsc.de] has left #lisp 21:02:07 daimrod: except for the barrier that too short and too long names can pose to understand the code you're reading. 21:02:13 SrPx: have you looked at APL? Maybe that's more to your liking, or maybe on-character-function-name C code :) 21:02:18 Fare: I don't know about better. 21:02:19 *Fare* is ready to convert his code to use cl-syntax instead of named-readtables, if that's the way to go. 21:02:37 sykopomp: it is not readable it is just too compact 21:02:40 SrPx: you can use cl to create a language that only you can read and write. 21:02:54 there is a balance, you need to find the best string-representation for what you are typing, this is what is nice 21:03:15 the great difficulty is to use cl to create a language that other people can read and write -- cl is not very good at that, as compared to racket. 21:03:28 SrPx: this is downright wrong. language is not about creating something that pleases yourself, it is about expressing thoughts to other people and computers. 21:03:41 H4ns: but it is for me :/ 21:04:08 <_tca> then why not just make your own language 21:04:12 <_tca> then you can do everything the way you want 21:04:15 codeknit [~codeknit@triband-mum-120.60.3.244.mtnl.net.in] has joined #lisp 21:04:39 SrPx: I hope I won't have to be on your team of developers. 21:04:43 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-215-88-150.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:05:28 I have tried that, but how? and how I would use other people's code? if I had a way to make my own syntax for stuff I like, but still be able to use and make wrappers for people's libraries, that would be perfect 21:05:47 clojure is almost perfect to be honest but that no reader macro thing does not enter my head 21:06:02 SrPx: once again, it is possible to use CL to experiment with developing languages, but it might not be the best choice. 21:06:19 Give a look at piumarta's COLA, pepsi and maru from a ground up approach 21:06:23 -!- Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:06:32 -!- m7w [~chatzilla@178.172.228.164] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:06:33 or Racket for a more high-level approach 21:06:33 -!- add^_ [~add^_@m37-2-179-248.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: add^_] 21:06:40 or interpreters in Haskell 21:07:29 how well does hunchentoot perform as a web application server? 21:07:34 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:07:36 ioa [~xmike@dynamic2-250-004.usc.edu] has joined #lisp 21:07:37 but can I make my dialect and still be able to use libraries for other languages ? how? 21:07:44 from * 21:07:46 codeknit: "very well" 21:07:54 codeknit: well enough, but you won't be hosting any mainstream websites on it. 21:08:26 codeknit: for a real answer, you need to ask a real question 21:08:28 *Xach* hosts the #1 lisp powered cat macro site with tbnl 21:08:32 then what would be ideal deployment for high traffic web applications 21:08:36 using cl 21:08:54 codeknit: what is "high traffic"? 21:09:07 <_tca> SrPx: if that's what you are interested in you probably should look into racket first 21:09:38 I was looking at one of the benchmark results where the overal throughput for hunchentoot powered site was lower than rails or django 21:09:49 yrk` [~user@c-50-133-134-220.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:09:54 codeknit: that is entirely possible. 21:10:27 codeknit: but you'll have to define your needs more precisely to learn whether hunchentoot is good for you 21:11:10 codeknit: it is not very fast, but has documentation and is widely used. there are other, less popular options that may or may not be better for your use case. 21:11:18 -!- ehu [~ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:11:37 replore [~replore@FL1-122-135-249-222.kng.mesh.ad.jp] has joined #lisp 21:11:41 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 21:12:05 -!- SrPx [bad4be96@gateway/web/freenode/ip.186.212.190.150] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:12:13 SrPx, yes you can. Piumarta's things interface well with C. CL, Racket and Haskell respectively have plenty of libraries. 21:12:17 -!- yrk` [~user@c-50-133-134-220.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 21:12:23 -!- yrk [~user@pdpc/supporter/student/yrk] has left #lisp 21:12:27 codeknit: there's not really any available high-performance webservers for CL afaik. 21:12:50 sykopomp, didn't I see plenty of CL webservers that claimed to be high-perf? 21:13:18 allegroserve is pretty fast on allegro cl 21:13:18 that work well, are documented, and are also high-performance* 21:13:24 tpd2 is... it's tpd2 21:13:27 like teepeedee2 or antiweb? 21:13:43 hehehe 21:13:52 aserve takes the same approach as HT, with one thread per connection, iirc. 21:13:57 but then, what is "high performance"? fast serving static files? fast dispatching requests? many connections? 21:14:02 and it's not quite as usable. Doesn't have a lot of the niceties. 21:14:25 sykopomp: yes, one (green) thread per connection, last time i looked. 21:14:38 cliki.net/web doesn't even mention cl-http to say it's not free software. That's probably unfair. 21:14:41 sykopomp: also, horrible source base. even hunchentoot is more fun to hack. 21:15:24 H4ns: I thought it was one real thread, since allegro does SMP now. 21:15:28 oh yeah, I tried to update hunchentoot for QRes but something seems to have changed wrt deadlines/timeouts. 21:16:04 H4ns, is there any obvious thing I should be looking into as the cause of my test failures? 21:16:19 -!- replore [~replore@FL1-122-135-249-222.kng.mesh.ad.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:16:26 Is it possible to attach Slime's debugger to a deadlocked thread in SBCL? 21:16:37 Fare: i'd have to look at the logs, nothing comes to my mind. 21:16:51 Fare: i've not seen any recent problem reports from ita. 21:17:03 OK, don't bother, I'll look at the logs myself. Just wanted to check if there was anything obvious. 21:17:06 sykopomp: last time i looked was like 5 years ago 21:17:21 -!- macdice [~user@46-65-10-191.zone16.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: snooze] 21:17:39 Our negative tests for connection timeout fails with the latest hunchentoot (as compared to... 1.1.0 or so). 21:17:43 Quetzalcoatl_: (interrupt-thread *some-thread* #'break) 21:17:45 I'll investigate. 21:17:58 *Xach* tries to figure out why all blogspot-hosted blogs are failing to poll for planet lisp 21:18:16 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:19:12 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-169-161.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 21:19:21 Quetzalcoatl_: sb-thread:interrupt-thread* 21:19:50 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-169-161.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:22:38 -!- Phoodus [~foo@ip68-98-92-29.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:22:40 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 21:23:24 M-x slime-list-thread and enter the debugger on it 21:24:57 aslan69_ [~aslan69@c-75-71-21-183.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:24:57 -!- aslan69 [~aslan69@c-75-71-21-183.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:24:58 -!- aslan69_ is now known as aslan69 21:29:03 I am in this class and totally new to Lisp, but everyone else has had Scheme before... I've got this long term project due in a few months and really have no idea where to start. We've got certain restrictions on what we can use, but every tutorial or piece of code I can find uses a bunch of the stuff we can't use. 21:29:14 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:29:51 teepeedee2 does have some well thought design decisions but seems to be incomplete 21:30:14 Specifically the assignment is to write a logic theorem prover (resolution) given some formatted input, but we can't use iteration, do, dotimes, dolist, loop, go, global variables, and only minimally may we use assignments like setf/setq 21:30:28 Any advice, tips, tutorials, example code? 21:30:41 looks like hunchentoot is the best bet for any web development in CL 21:30:59 Derk: I guess you'll have to break the problem down recursively 21:31:55 Right, he intimated it would all be recursive, we could use let/union/remove/member/car/cdr/list/cond, and something about dynamic scoping using a special declaration, whatever that's about 21:32:36 Derk: define the macros you want to use in terms of what you can use, and once your program works, macroexpand it. 21:32:52 I don't know what that means 21:33:07 Derk: this kind of restriction is the dumbest. 21:33:20 ok 21:33:22 Derk: well, you'd have to learn lisp in the first place. 21:33:29 Derk: check http://cliki.net for the tutorials. 21:33:30 right, which is what I'm asking 21:33:32 ok 21:33:34 thanks 21:33:43 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 21:33:50 what are your feelings on the gigamonkeys book? 21:34:07 it is pretty good 21:34:39 that's the one I've been working through a bit, but I'm checking out the stuff on cliki now 21:35:21 -!- wol [~wol@67.174.222.215] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 21:35:37 wol [~wol@67.174.222.215] has joined #lisp 21:35:38 the gigamonkeys book is pretty good at using the full language to solve real problems. not as good with arbitrary restrictions for somewhat contrived problems. 21:35:57 -!- aslan69 [~aslan69@c-75-71-21-183.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: aslan69] 21:36:55 -!- wol [~wol@67.174.222.215] has quit [Client Quit] 21:37:41 sabra [~wol@67.174.222.215] has joined #lisp 21:38:14 Derk: there's something like that in pnorvig's book. 21:38:35 paradigms of ai programming is quite a nice book for CL 21:38:46 oh, you mean a theorem prover or a recursive one 21:39:16 Derk, why are you using CL and not Scheme for this kind of problem? 21:39:30 is the assignment to use CL, or did you choose it? 21:39:34 like, I can find some theorem provers just by googling but they are using lots of loops so there's little I can glean from them as far as the functions I would use/need to use 21:39:42 must use it 21:39:46 ok 21:39:53 I can do this in 30 minutes in C 21:40:01 you can? 21:40:06 then it's easy in CL, too. 21:40:16 easier, from what I hear 21:40:17 is that propositional logic? 21:40:30 yes, prop for now, then expand to first order (with unification and all that) later 21:40:51 http://darnok.org/programming/artificial-intelligence/deduce-ZOL/deduce-ZOL.lsp 21:40:55 I suppose they want you to use recursion into search tree, with proper cuts. 21:40:58 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:41:20 well it's breadth first exhaustive search 21:41:34 with some optional optimizations to do things like drop tautologies and such 21:41:43 what is that link's relation to the problem? (It's not formatted as colloquial CL, btw) 21:41:59 guyal [~michaelmu@108-235-117-64.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:42:23 ah, well that's basically what my assignment is, with different formatted input, but the output is spot on (I can get some formatting tips here for sure) 21:42:38 but there's a lot of looping and stuff there.. but even then you can see it's pretty short 21:42:47 in C it would be a lot more messy, that's for sure 21:43:08 -!- foreignFunction [~niksaak@94.27.89.83] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 21:44:00 -!- Quetzalcoatl_ [~Administr@cpe-75-186-5-185.cinci.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 21:44:08 so what's the problem you have, already? 21:44:32 oh, just trying to get started really, looking for good resources and such 21:44:39 if you know Scheme, and you're not going to use continuations or indefinite tail calls, translation to CL is straightforward. 21:44:39 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 21:44:43 I don't 21:44:52 -!- puchacz [~puchacz@46-65-36-47.zone16.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:44:56 oh, you don't know scheme? 21:45:03 Indecipherable [~Indeciphe@41.27.71.238] has joined #lisp 21:45:12 I am in this class and totally new to Lisp, but everyone else has had Scheme before 21:45:18 nope, the only one 21:45:43 so I'm not getting a tutorial or anything, I'm just kind of expected to know it or figure it out on my own 21:46:05 -!- Joreji [~thomas@91.143.83.112] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:46:05 BountyX [~andrew@76.14.65.229] has joined #lisp 21:48:42 So I figured I'd ask for advice about what would be a good tutorial and what to stay away from here 21:49:06 but I also found #clnoobs now so I will probably ask stuff there rather than clutter up things in here 21:50:33 -!- codeknit [~codeknit@triband-mum-120.60.3.244.mtnl.net.in] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:51:48 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:53:28 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 21:55:36 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 21:56:05 foreignFunction [~niksaak@94.27.88.162] has joined #lisp 22:00:02 nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-75-239.w81-51.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 22:01:43 Derk: ok - so I hope the previously linked tutorials help 22:02:06 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:02:07 yeah there's a lot linked from cliki and I'm going through them 22:02:13 I also have Paul Graham's book on the way 22:02:22 which I had bought like 10 years ago but lost it somewhere 22:03:22 jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@bl6-60-85.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 22:03:46 -!- Indecipherable [~Indeciphe@41.27.71.238] has quit [Quit: used jmIrc] 22:04:14 -!- LiamH [~healy@pool-173-73-125-152.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:04:23 which PG book are you getting? 22:04:31 ANSI Common Lisp? 22:04:34 yeah 22:04:47 it's not a good intro to CLOS, so ignore that part. 22:05:05 even our professor said we should use it just as a reference 22:05:14 well 22:05:21 *Derk* shrug 22:05:42 get keene's book 22:06:15 it's only superficially covered by PG book, only little of it 22:06:37 and you'll need maybe other books too..... 22:06:40 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 22:06:43 it's not a bad book for what it covers. 22:06:50 it seldcom works with just 1 book....... 22:07:28 ok I'll check it out 22:07:56 -!- Vicfred [~Grothendi@201.102.58.16] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:08:01 my list would be, PG ansi, PG onlisp, dougs LOL, keene's clos book, paip, aima.... 22:08:32 onlisp is a good intro to macros 22:08:43 anyone with some experience with CL-EMB ? 22:08:45 dougs LOL is full of good ideas, but TERRIBLE as a style guide. 22:08:54 beside of clhs and maybe ansi-cl reference via dpans 22:09:22 aah, i forgot the intro one, gentle-intro...... 22:09:40 that as first maybe.....even..... 22:10:16 and last but not least sicp 22:11:02 and the little-schemer or so ..... 22:11:38 one of the implementation books..... 22:12:13 -!- Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:12:31 oh i forgot gigamonkeys book and lamkins successfull lisp..... 22:12:44 and lisp cookbook from the internets..... 22:13:13 what about the norvig book? 22:13:23 those all together and one mentor or so should give you a good start into lisp..... 22:13:32 i already said that paip 22:13:39 afaik there are two 22:13:42 paip and aima 22:13:53 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:13:55 -!- ltbarcly [~ltbarcly@pfsense.hackerdojo.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:13:58 my sbcl got all the aima code run without problems but dunno the paip code failed here.... 22:14:05 ltbarcly [~ltbarcly@pfsense.hackerdojo.com] has joined #lisp 22:14:09 Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 22:14:10 maybe i failed to exec those examples correctly.... 22:14:56 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 22:15:00 and i've not even read aima yet, just to see if the examples would work....or the tests would run.... 22:15:33 -!- Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:17:42 ISF [~ivan@187.64.220.85] has joined #lisp 22:18:52 -!- Mazingaro [~Tetsuja@host45-237-dynamic.6-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:21:40 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:24:07 catmtking [~catmtking@108-224-122-111.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:24:32 -!- jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@bl6-60-85.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: jcazevedo] 22:25:58 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 22:26:07 Hello all 22:28:04 -!- Daisy [~Daisy@109.58.212.151.bredband.tre.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:28:34 jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@bl6-60-85.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 22:28:46 pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has joined #lisp 22:29:07 Daisy [~Daisy@109.58.212.151.bredband.tre.se] has joined #lisp 22:33:04 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:33:31 -!- nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-75-239.w81-51.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:33:54 nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-109-165.w90-13.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 22:33:59 lcc [~lcc@unaffiliated/lcc] has joined #lisp 22:34:11 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@2.80.230.55] has quit [Quit: Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/] 22:34:52 -!- Daisy [~Daisy@109.58.212.151.bredband.tre.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 22:35:20 -!- punee [~punee@213-245-106-105.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Quit: punee] 22:36:50 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 22:38:28 sabra, hi 22:38:56 Daisy [~Daisy@109.58.212.151.bredband.tre.se] has joined #lisp 22:40:21 blaenk [~blaenk@unaffiliated/blaenkdenum] has joined #lisp 22:40:38 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 22:43:09 -!- guyal [~michaelmu@108-235-117-64.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: The Sleeper has Asleepen] 22:43:36 Fare, I'm adding a new section for more manual tools like exscribe 22:43:46 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 22:44:35 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:44:41 sabra, nice 22:45:14 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 22:46:35 Also waiting on responses on some bug reports before the next version. 22:48:55 bug reports? 22:49:25 Not on exscribe. 22:49:32 note that I've started using racket's scribble instead of exscribe 22:49:54 Should I not include exscribe? 22:50:08 it does a few things worse, many things better, but most importantly, it has a community and a growing featureset 22:50:13 yes you should 22:50:18 -!- SanderM [~quassel@vhe-400104.sshn.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:50:23 exscribe is good, maintained 22:50:35 but somewhat stagnant -- it's not going to get much better 22:50:48 unless someone else takes over 22:51:46 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:52:30 That seems to be the problem with a lot of libraries. A lot of work for a year, then unless a community grows up around it, the author turns to other priorities and bit rot sets in 22:53:24 at least, I clean the bit rot as fast as I see it. 22:53:43 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 22:53:54 -!- phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:54:27 sellout42 [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:54:39 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 22:54:44 One advantage of quicklisp and testing document auto-generation programs is that I have a good set of test data 22:59:33 But I need to test using more than just sbcl 22:59:57 dnolen [~user@cpe-74-64-61-245.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:00:49 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:01:41 -!- setmeaway [setmeaway3@119.201.52.168] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:02:00 setmeaway [setmeaway3@119.201.52.168] has joined #lisp 23:04:35 -!- mjs2600_ [~mjs2600@user-0c999kc.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:04:47 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 23:06:16 Xach, is there a recommended way to run tests with other lisps without destroying my working quicklisp directory? 23:09:59 -!- pspace [~andrew@76.14.65.229] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:11:16 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:11:52 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@107-202-145-90.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 23:12:12 kpreid [~kpreid@107-202-145-90.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:12:43 pspace [~andrew@76.14.65.229] has joined #lisp 23:12:44 -!- pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:13:13 -!- Daisy [~Daisy@109.58.212.151.bredband.tre.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:13:36 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 23:14:11 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@91-157-48-51.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:15:49 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 23:20:48 Phoodus [~foo@ip68-98-92-29.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 23:22:59 pirateking-_- [~piratekin@unaffiliated/pirateking---/x-2885143] has joined #lisp 23:22:59 -!- Phoodus [~foo@ip68-98-92-29.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:23:01 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:23:02 -!- pspace [~andrew@76.14.65.229] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:23:56 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@82.208.57.182] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net] 23:27:02 pspace [~andrew@76.14.65.229] has joined #lisp 23:27:02 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 23:27:36 sabra: afaict, quicklisp segregates fasls in different directories, just like asdf does 23:27:41 -!- catmtking [~catmtking@108-224-122-111.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: catmtking] 23:27:47 so you can use as many implementations as you like without clash 23:28:11 *maybe* even several versions of the same implementation (asdf supports that, too) 23:28:36 -!- agumonkey [~agu@208.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 23:29:12 Fare: works here. 23:29:39 mjs2600 [~mjs2600@user-0c999kc.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 23:33:54 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:34:38 -!- pspace [~andrew@76.14.65.229] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:35:55 pspace [~andrew@76.14.65.229] has joined #lisp 23:36:26 replore_ [~replore@FL1-122-135-249-222.kng.mesh.ad.jp] has joined #lisp 23:37:02 Fare: thanks 23:37:49 pkhuong, glad to hear 23:37:50 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 23:38:33 that's one of the big improvements I did to asdf with asdf2 -- make these things just work by default. 23:38:46 (based on initial ideas from c-l-c and a-o-t) 23:40:07 -!- pspace [~andrew@76.14.65.229] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:41:42 -!- xpoqz [~xpoqz@203.80-203-124.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:42:33 xpoqz [~xpoqz@203.80-203-124.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 23:43:08 jleija [~jleija@50.8.41.50] has joined #lisp 23:44:20 pspace [~andrew@76.14.65.229] has joined #lisp 23:45:08 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 23:46:06 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:48:34 -!- pspace [~andrew@76.14.65.229] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:48:46 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 23:49:19 -!- replore_ [~replore@FL1-122-135-249-222.kng.mesh.ad.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:49:28 -!- foreignFunction [~niksaak@94.27.88.162] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:50:51 pspace [~andrew@76.14.65.229] has joined #lisp 23:51:17 -!- xpoqz [~xpoqz@203.80-203-124.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:51:59 xpoqz [~xpoqz@203.80-203-124.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 23:53:18 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@217.17.38.43] has quit [Quit: pa/bye] 23:55:10 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 23:55:20 -!- pspace [~andrew@76.14.65.229] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:55:55 guyal [~michaelmu@108-235-117-64.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:56:57 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 23:58:36 pspace [~andrew@76.14.65.229] has joined #lisp 23:58:43 -!- xpoqz [~xpoqz@203.80-203-124.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]