00:02:26 I haven't used CLOS much, either. What I had in mind was a "loose" DSL with basically (object (property-name property-value)*) objects and then have the property constructors do local sanity checking [(color 10) doesn't make sense] and a yet undetermined rule system do the more complex cross-object checks when objects are connected to one another (when an /owner/ buys a /car/) 00:02:52 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@217.17.38.43] has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:03:17 -!- marzy [~zeh@82-68-16-14.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk] has quit [] 00:04:26 -!- bitonic [~user@93-40-107-27.ip38.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:04:50 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 00:05:43 aib: I mean it seems like the language is essentially declarative. So you put all the info in objects, and then have the code work on the objects like usual. 00:05:45 paskeluoja [~paskeluoj@pool-108-48-115-108.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:05:49 bitonic [~user@93-40-107-27.ip38.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 00:07:29 -!- jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@188.250.84.83] has quit [Quit: jcazevedo] 00:07:33 hmm, you're right. 00:08:05 rvirding [u5943@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-hpnezepwumwlopoc] has joined #lisp 00:08:07 aib: and with multimethods it's easy to specialize code on both a type of owner and a type of car, etc 00:10:51 yes, but the rules are just as dynamic as the objects. an "addendum" adding objects will invariably add rules too 00:11:09 ah. 00:11:42 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:11:59 see? told you it was a bad question, a hard one to ask. sorry :( 00:13:05 what if I started with macros that look like the ones in the example -- that produce simple data structures that look likes the ones in the example? still a bad idea? 00:14:02 Do you need macros if you're just using list structure? 00:16:21 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 00:20:21 NimeshNeema [u2689@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-qokufqiobjdrrnlc] has joined #lisp 00:22:50 my gut says that immediate validation - as in (type 'famil) failing would be better than simply storing '(type famil) and adding a sanity check as a rule. I don't want a parser intermingled with the "in-game" rules. hmm, maybe I could create two domains of rules: one for parsing, one for the actual rules 00:23:14 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:23:42 and of course, 'type' could be a function (a constructor) and not a macro in this case 00:24:24 this is all probably an artifact stemming from me trying to think in a "LISPy" way without much experience 00:27:11 -!- rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:27:19 it would be best, of course, if I could try everything and fail where I should. still, maybe if I read some more on this... this... [what, exactly? how would I begin to search for know-how in this area?] 00:27:47 just seems like a question of design to me 00:27:52 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 00:30:43 never had to deal with macros and DSLs in design before :) 00:31:03 oh well, I guess I'll keep thinking and experimenting. thank you very much for your input, I should really go to bed now :) 00:31:06 sleep on it... 00:31:08 glad to help 00:31:38 'night 00:34:54 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:36:57 FirewalkR [~FirewalkR@a95-93-231-198.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 00:39:00 -!- sawjig [~sawjig@gateway/tor-sasl/sawjig] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:39:23 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 00:40:02 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@123.208.140.109] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:40:08 DataLinkD2 [~DataLinkD@123.208.140.109] has joined #lisp 00:40:57 -!- kuzary [~who@gateway/tor-sasl/kuzary] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:41:10 -!- FirewalkR [~FirewalkR@a95-93-231-198.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:41:42 kuzary [~who@gateway/tor-sasl/kuzary] has joined #lisp 00:42:39 aslan69_ [~aslan69@c-75-71-21-183.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:42:40 -!- aslan69 [~aslan69@c-75-71-21-183.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:42:40 -!- aslan69_ is now known as aslan69 00:44:10 sawjig [~sawjig@gateway/tor-sasl/sawjig] has joined #lisp 00:46:12 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:50:52 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 00:57:37 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:01:07 do any lisps do partial application/currying by default .. (i guess you could do that with a macro replacing defun?) 01:01:48 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 01:04:04 -!- Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-71-191-38-245.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Farewell, farewell, God knows when we shall meet again. --Shakespeare] 01:04:53 Shen 01:05:04 pirateking-_- [~piratekin@unaffiliated/pirateking---/x-2885143] has joined #lisp 01:07:01 interesting 01:08:36 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:08:56 homie`` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-191-152.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 01:10:08 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-153-137.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 01:11:30 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-153-137.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:12:39 Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-71-191-38-245.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:12:41 Yuuhi`` [benni@p5483B387.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 01:13:16 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 01:14:16 -!- Yuuhi` [benni@p5483B276.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:15:02 pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has joined #lisp 01:15:12 -!- huangjs [~huangjs@69.84.244.131] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:15:20 joekarma [~joekarma@70-36-57-169.dyn.novuscom.net] has joined #lisp 01:15:51 -!- Bike [~Glossina@75-175-72-75.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:17:39 Bike [~Glossina@75-175-72-75.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 01:19:34 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:24:29 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 01:24:39 -!- pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:25:40 -!- brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-142-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 01:29:47 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:31:21 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 01:31:55 hmm, this is probably easy, but for some reason i'm stuck: for debuggin a hunchentoot server, is there a easy way to print a message to the repl (from a request handler)? all i manage to get in the repl is the response details 01:33:37 -!- bitonic [~user@93-40-107-27.ip38.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:34:13 Bacteria [~Bacteria@115-64-180-132.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 01:34:55 TaylorBaby1985 [ask@71-88-208-68.dhcp.kgpt.tn.charter.com] has joined #lisp 01:35:22 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 01:37:44 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@erudite.anarchism.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:38:48 -!- TaylorBaby1985 [ask@71-88-208-68.dhcp.kgpt.tn.charter.com] has quit [Killed (idoru (Spam is off topic on freenode.))] 01:39:10 -!- zolk3ri [~zolk3ri@unaffiliated/zolk3ri] has quit [] 01:39:20 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@72.53.112.90] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 01:40:06 -!- pirateking-_- [~piratekin@unaffiliated/pirateking---/x-2885143] has quit [Quit: pirateking-_-] 01:40:17 lemoinem [~swoog@72.53.112.90] has joined #lisp 01:41:40 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:43:35 ThomasH [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/thomash] has joined #lisp 01:43:44 Greetings lispers 01:45:06 -!- AlbireoX [~AlbireoX@76.78.168.247] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:45:32 AlbireoX [~AlbireoX@76.78.168.247] has joined #lisp 01:46:24 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 01:49:16 -!- benny [~user@i577A1C45.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:49:20 -!- Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-71-191-38-245.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:52:17 robot-beethoven could you use format? 01:52:52 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 01:53:33 robot-beethoven: you might have to bind *standard-output* to your own variable and pass it explicitly... 01:54:13 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 01:54:30 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 02:00:11 -!- paskeluoja [~paskeluoj@pool-108-48-115-108.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 02:00:51 robot-beethoven: https://gist.github.com/3785568 02:01:14 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:01:43 joekarma: that works -- thanks 02:01:53 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-76-254-21-50.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:01:54 robot-beethoven: by the way, for debugging a hunchentoot server you can also set hunchentoot:*catch-errors-p* to nil 02:02:25 this will pop up the debugger whenever there's an error 02:03:20 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-76-254-21-50.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:05:04 naryl [~weechat@46.182.24.168] has joined #lisp 02:05:36 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 02:06:45 harish [harish@nat/redhat/x-krowcudpyguavojj] has joined #lisp 02:08:58 joekarma: ah, that's useful too -- i recall wishing for that from time to time -- maybe it's time for me to reread the hunchentoot docs 02:12:06 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:13:17 BimmyJones [~hercules@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 02:14:33 -!- BimmyJones [~hercules@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 02:16:41 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 02:18:40 BimmyJones [~hercules@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 02:19:16 robot-beethoven: I gave you bad information. In the most recent version of hunchentoot, setting *catch-errors-p* to nil won't pop up a debugger. Setting hunchentoot::*break-on-signals* to 'error will. 02:19:39 -!- BimmyJones is now known as SHUPFS 02:21:09 Fare [fare@nat/google/x-djjmvoeeryyezzrp] has joined #lisp 02:23:16 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 02:25:02 -!- agumonkey [~agu@235.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 02:25:53 -!- justinmcp [~justinmcp@13.47.233.220.static.exetel.com.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:26:36 kanru` [~kanru@118-163-10-190.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 02:27:36 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 02:27:55 -!- cracauer_ [cracauer@nat/google/x-divomkesahardzma] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:28:22 is that not just cl:*break-on-signals*? 02:30:12 cracauer_ [cracauer@nat/google/x-nzkgircuzzsrasqi] has joined #lisp 02:30:26 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 02:34:14 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 02:34:26 -!- ace4016 [~ace4016@cpe-024-074-197-085.ec.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: When there's nothing left to burn you have to set yourself on fire.] 02:35:11 -!- aslan69 [~aslan69@c-75-71-21-183.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: aslan69] 02:38:24 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 02:45:01 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 02:46:10 tensorpudding_ [~michael@99.23.126.76] has joined #lisp 02:49:07 -!- tensorpudding [~michael@108.87.16.99] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:49:16 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 02:50:22 null-_ [~null-@unaffiliated/null-] has joined #lisp 02:51:34 -!- xpoqz [~xpoqz@80.203.124.203] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:52:12 -!- sohakes [~sohakes@186.207.99.234] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:52:56 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu1.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 02:55:47 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 02:57:05 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 03:00:33 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 03:00:53 AlbireoX`Laptop [~AlbireoX@76.78.168.247] has joined #lisp 03:01:04 -!- AlbireoX [~AlbireoX@76.78.168.247] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:06:47 I've got a problem with cl-sasl. I don't know anything about sasl, it's used by cl-xmpp. But when I try to open a tls xmpp connection, it breaks in sasl because (authz-id c) for the plain client instance is NIL instead of an expected empty string. Should authz-id be non nil and non empty? Can I just replace it by ""? Or should there be something there? 03:07:18 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 03:08:10 -!- DataLinkD2 [~DataLinkD@123.208.140.109] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:08:15 DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@123.208.140.109] has joined #lisp 03:08:27 pjb: what if you try "" ? 03:08:48 *Fare* is relieved to post the FINAL version of his paper - much improved from reviews and proofreads. 03:08:55 -!- steffi_s [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1178025755.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:10:03 steffi_s [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1178025755.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 03:10:09 Still at http://common-lisp.net/~frideau/lil-ilc2012/lil-ilc2012.html 03:11:05 -!- null-_ [~null-@unaffiliated/null-] has left #lisp 03:11:31 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 03:11:39 -!- quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 03:15:40 superflit_ [~superflit@75-171-219-2.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 03:17:30 -!- superflit [~superflit@65-128-61-237.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 03:17:30 -!- superflit_ is now known as superflit 03:18:12 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 03:22:27 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 03:24:06 kanru`` [~kanru@118-163-10-190.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 03:28:14 kushal [~kdas@114.143.161.209] has joined #lisp 03:28:15 -!- kushal [~kdas@114.143.161.209] has quit [Changing host] 03:28:15 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 03:28:25 -!- kanru` [~kanru@118-163-10-190.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:29:34 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:29:43 -!- doomlord [~ceti331@host81-157-102-115.range81-157.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:33:21 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 03:36:36 arrsim [~user@mail.fitness2live.com.au] has joined #lisp 03:37:08 I'm setting up a new lisp system and cannot get quicklisp to load slime, do I have to get slime manually? The problem is that I had slime on my main system prior to quicklisp and never bothered to try to update it with quicklisp. 03:40:01 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:40:01 -!- naiv_ [~quassel@AAnnecy-552-1-336-204.w90-27.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:40:18 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-68-174-154-238.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 03:41:39 ThomasH: did you put the proper incantation in .emacs? 03:42:13 sykopomp: Not even to that point, just trying to quickload load slime from a bare sbcl prompt 03:42:39 ThomasH: slime is not gonna work in a 'bare' sbcl prompt, because SLIME is for emacs. 03:43:06 the CL side of slime is called swank, and I'm not sure you'll get much out of just loading swank, unless you've got emacs set up to connect to it. 03:43:08 sykopomp: Yes, I realize that, I was just trying to get the repo with QL, now I see the error in my thinking. 03:43:13 ThomasH: you mean quicklisp-slime-helper? 03:43:40 No, I realize why this makes no sense. It's been a long day. 03:43:51 it's cool 03:44:09 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 03:44:21 I'm getting Arch Linux and SBCL up and running on a VM so I can work on transitioning back to Linux as much as possible. 03:45:17 pacman -S emacs, sbcl --load quicklisp.lisp ... (ql:quickload 'quicklisp-slime-helper)... put the stuff in your .emacs ... $ emacs ... M-x slime 03:45:24 done 03:46:10 Ah, messed up at quicklisp-slime-helper. 03:46:14 Thanks sykopomp 03:47:03 how did people survive before quicklisp? 03:47:27 sykopomp: My problem is that I know how to survice without quicklisp and am trying to adapt to relying on it. 03:47:33 pirateking-_- [~piratekin@unaffiliated/pirateking---/x-2885143] has joined #lisp 03:47:34 asdf-install? 03:47:51 speak no more, I may need to go back into therapy for ptsd 03:50:45 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 03:51:00 -!- SHUPFS [~hercules@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has left #lisp 03:51:07 fmeyer [~fmeyer@186.220.40.197] has joined #lisp 03:54:33 -!- Sorella [~quildreen@oftn/member/Sorella] has quit [Quit: (quit :reason 'sleep)] 03:55:36 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 03:55:37 -!- pirateking-_- [~piratekin@unaffiliated/pirateking---/x-2885143] has quit [Quit: pirateking-_-] 04:00:57 -!- Fare [fare@nat/google/x-djjmvoeeryyezzrp] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 04:01:36 pirateking-_- [~piratekin@unaffiliated/pirateking---/x-2885143] has joined #lisp 04:02:04 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 04:03:10 am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has joined #lisp 04:03:44 justinmcp [~justinmcp@ppp118-208-147-102.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 04:04:03 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 04:05:20 justinmc_ [~justinmcp@ppp118-208-147-102.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 04:06:30 xjiujiu [~quassel@218.77.14.202] has joined #lisp 04:08:30 Fare [fare@nat/google/x-gglfqhdhhnsqudzo] has joined #lisp 04:08:46 -!- justinmcp [~justinmcp@ppp118-208-147-102.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:10:28 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 04:14:34 -!- xjiujiu [~quassel@218.77.14.202] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:15:16 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@186.220.40.197] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 04:15:19 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 04:15:25 -!- antonv [5d7d31f9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.49.249] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:16:15 fmeyer [~fmeyer@186.220.40.197] has joined #lisp 04:21:54 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:26:43 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 04:28:30 teggi [~teggi@113.172.46.248] has joined #lisp 04:33:21 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:33:35 QL is the reason I ditched clojure and decided to stick with CL, so blame Xach if I ever get too annoying :) 04:34:47 benny [~user@i577A7BFC.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 04:37:57 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 04:42:44 -!- fengshaun [~fengshaun@unaffiliated/fengshaun] has left #lisp 04:44:00 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 04:45:46 beelike [~yhiselamu@lap.ee] has joined #lisp 04:46:29 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 04:47:05 -!- Jubb [~ghost@pool-108-28-0-134.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:47:48 jji [~jji@c220-239-125-8.belrs4.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 04:49:43 nipra [~Adium@61.12.27.114] has joined #lisp 04:53:50 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 04:54:18 SsvRrwQ [~user@24.68.50.61] has joined #lisp 04:56:21 You still have to know how to survive without quicklisp, since only a small number of CL libraries are available with an ASDF system, and an even smaller number are distributed with quicklisp! 04:57:38 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 04:58:47 is that true? seems most relevant ones are in quicklisp 04:59:19 it's true in a strict, technical sense, sure 05:00:21 relevancy is in the eyes of the beholder. 05:04:14 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@123.208.140.109] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:04:34 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:05:12 fantazo [~fantazo@91-119-67-128.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 05:05:30 Well, that said there seems to be a lot of new libraries in quicklisp too. I have 11,020,377 lisp LoC in ~/quicklisp, but only 3,920,549 lisp LoC in my old /data/lisp/packages collection. 05:08:01 lolprog [~let@94-225-44-126.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 05:08:48 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 05:09:59 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:11:08 pjb: for some definition of small. 05:11:28 pjb, how many are available w/o ASDF system, in comparison? 05:12:44 these days, asdf has perks such as asdf-finalizers or :around-compile hooks. 05:14:34 tcr [~tcr@84-72-21-32.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 05:15:42 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 05:17:22 Fare: do you have a nice PDF of LIL doc, for printing and offline-reading? 05:20:16 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 05:22:15 -!- qptain_Nemo [~qN@81-235-52-30-no79.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:22:27 to the alexandria comitters: how about changing the default buffer size of copy-stream to eg. 32k? Modern times and all that. 05:24:40 -!- robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:26:48 flip214, yes - http://common-lisp.net/~frideau/lil-ilc2012/lil-ilc2012.pdf 05:26:48 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:27:54 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:28:44 robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:29:36 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 05:30:03 -!- beelike [~yhiselamu@lap.ee] has quit [Quit: #yhiselamu | www.yhiselamu.ee (EOF)] 05:30:28 beelike2 [~yhiselamu@lap.ee] has joined #lisp 05:30:44 quazimodo [~quazimodo@c122-106-147-75.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 05:31:35 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 05:31:46 kushal [kdas@nat/redhat/x-ajkkipqfhmeowiin] has joined #lisp 05:31:46 -!- kushal [kdas@nat/redhat/x-ajkkipqfhmeowiin] has quit [Changing host] 05:31:46 kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 05:35:02 SHUPFS [~hercules@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 05:35:35 Fare: pseudo-scheme doesn't have an asdf system yet. I made one for zebu, but I've not distributed it yet. So at least 2. 05:36:08 -!- ThomasH [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/thomash] has left #lisp 05:37:25 -!- AlbireoX`Laptop [~AlbireoX@76.78.168.247] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:37:56 AlbireoX [~AlbireoX@76.78.168.247] has joined #lisp 05:38:08 mhi^ [~mhi@mhi.sanctioned.net] has joined #lisp 05:38:34 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:39:32 Fare: thanks a lot, would like you like an errata if I find anything? or is it too late, as this is the FINAL version :? 05:39:54 tensorpudding [~michael@99.148.203.69] has joined #lisp 05:40:53 -!- pirateking-_- [~piratekin@unaffiliated/pirateking---/x-2885143] has quit [Quit: pirateking-_-] 05:42:23 -!- AlbireoX [~AlbireoX@76.78.168.247] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 05:42:46 -!- tensorpudding_ [~michael@99.23.126.76] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:42:52 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 05:43:38 pirateking-_- [~piratekin@unaffiliated/pirateking---/x-2885143] has joined #lisp 05:44:30 flip214, yes, errata is fine. 05:44:48 I mean, it *should* be final, but if we fix it before it's printed, that's great. 05:46:24 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 05:47:13 DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@1.147.109.218] has joined #lisp 05:48:06 -!- pirateking-_- [~piratekin@unaffiliated/pirateking---/x-2885143] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 05:49:25 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:50:11 salacious [~methz@109.227.48.178] has joined #lisp 05:50:17 -!- salacious [~methz@109.227.48.178] has left #lisp 05:54:03 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 05:54:18 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-pwafzmaaropqwklc] has joined #lisp 05:54:19 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-pwafzmaaropqwklc] has quit [Changing host] 05:54:19 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 05:57:42 -!- lolprog 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quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:22:54 -!- phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:24:17 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 07:24:29 pirateking-_- [~piratekin@unaffiliated/pirateking---/x-2885143] has joined #lisp 07:25:25 is there an established name for a function that returns a plist reader (i.e. (defun XXX (key) (lambda (plist) (getf plist key))) ? 07:25:40 -!- orangepnut [~cody@unaffiliated/orangepnut] has quit [Quit: leaving] 07:27:25 (funcall (alexandria:rcurry (function getf) :k2) '(:k1 1 :k2 2 :k3 3)) => 2 07:27:51 if it took the plist first I'd probably call it "getfer" for no good reason 07:27:52 H4ns: otherwise, no, no specific name. 07:28:18 i'll just call it plist-reader then. thanks. 07:29:36 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 07:30:02 -!- justinmc_ [~justinmcp@ppp118-208-147-102.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:30:37 justinmcp [~justinmcp@ppp118-208-147-102.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:31:13 -!- sabalaba [~Adium@108-252-136-195.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:31:14 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:31:30 Bike: plist first? 07:32:03 using curry instead of rcurry. my comment's not really relevant to anything, sorry. 07:33:26 -!- justinmcp [~justinmcp@ppp118-208-147-102.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:33:43 justinmcp [~justinmcp@ppp118-208-147-102.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:34:02 tiripamwe [~tiripamwe@41.221.159.83] has joined #lisp 07:34:04 bitonic [~user@93-40-107-27.ip38.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 07:35:53 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 07:38:04 -!- mpstyler [~mpstyler@176.73.151.79] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 07:40:19 punee [~punee@213-245-106-105.rev.numericable.fr] has 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08:38:13 jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@188.250.84.83] has joined #lisp 08:38:47 -!- joekarma [~joekarma@70-36-57-169.dyn.novuscom.net] has quit [Quit: joekarma] 08:41:01 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 08:42:44 http://www.ros.org/wiki/roslisp 08:42:45 awesome 08:43:04 nha_ [~prefect@koln-4d0dd58e.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 08:43:12 I might get to do a robotics project with more or less free choice of tools, and the guy running it has some experience with ROS 08:43:25 which turns out to have pre-existing support for SBCL integration 08:44:11 joekarma [~joekarma@70-36-57-169.dyn.novuscom.net] has joined #lisp 08:45:02 http://cliki.net/robotics 08:45:51 -!- pirateking-_- [~piratekin@unaffiliated/pirateking---/x-2885143] has quit [Quit: pirateking-_-] 08:46:36 xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.145.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 08:47:06 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 08:48:13 :-) 08:49:16 lggr 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timeout: 240 seconds] 10:34:46 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 10:39:50 -!- kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:40:03 -!- rjmt__ [~uid1@46-65-28-90.zone16.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:41:16 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:42:08 rjmt__ [~uid1@46-65-28-90.zone16.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 10:42:19 zolk3ri [~zolk3ri@catv-89-132-196-182.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 10:43:08 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 10:43:10 pirateking-_- [~piratekin@unaffiliated/pirateking---/x-2885143] has joined #lisp 10:47:41 pjb: wow, that starts out with all the boringest and least relevant bits 10:47:53 I mean 10:47:56 http://web.cecs.pdx.edu/~mperkows/class478-2005/tsewen-project.pdf does 10:49:54 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-220-76.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:49:56 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 10:50:48 All tutorials do. 10:51:17 -!- rjmt__ [~uid1@46-65-28-90.zone16.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:51:24 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 10:53:07 -!- mpstyler [~mpstyler@176.73.151.79] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 10:54:14 rjmt__ [~uid1@46-65-28-90.zone16.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 10:54:24 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 10:58:24 -!- am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 10:59:44 -!- pirateking-_- [~piratekin@unaffiliated/pirateking---/x-2885143] has quit [Quit: pirateking-_-] 11:00:34 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:03:07 pjb: that's a paper though. And it should present unique and interesting bits first, not "what is FFI" 11:04:00 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-220-76.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 11:04:33 ignas [~ignas@office.pov.lt] has joined #lisp 11:05:21 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 11:06:31 -!- rjmt__ [~uid1@46-65-28-90.zone16.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 11:06:54 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 11:12:25 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 11:14:43 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 11:15:48 rjmt__ [~uid1@46-65-28-90.zone16.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 11:16:26 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 11:19:26 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 11:20:07 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-220-76.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 11:20:37 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-220-76.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 11:20:46 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@CPE-124-184-0-174.lns10.cht.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 11:20:49 -!- agumonkey [~agu@235.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 11:21:29 -!- simon_ is now known as simon 11:22:56 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:23:58 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 11:27:52 mpstyler [~chatzilla@176.73.151.79] has joined #lisp 11:27:52 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 11:28:49 -!- mpstyler [~chatzilla@176.73.151.79] has quit [Client Quit] 11:29:45 mpstyler [~quassel@176.73.151.79] has joined #lisp 11:31:11 . 11:33:27 minion: tell Fare some small things found, will send email 11:33:27 Fare: watch out, you'll make krystof angry 11:33:38 ? 11:33:46 heh. 11:33:51 syntax is something like "minion: memo for Fare: ..." 11:34:00 Krystof: thanks. 11:34:07 minion: memo for Fare: some small things found, will send email 11:34:07 Remembered. I'll tell Fare when he/she/it next speaks. 11:34:20 flip214: do you call people when you've sent them an email to tell them that you've sent them an email? 11:34:44 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 11:34:55 H4ns: no, there's phone for that. 11:35:02 ? 11:35:28 should just be a notice that there might be some changes _before_ declaring final, but that they won't be available today. 11:35:53 flip214: i'd send him an email, but meh 11:36:49 -!- mpstyler [~quassel@176.73.151.79] has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.] 11:38:48 c_arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-gqjiafkgmuatcpxv] has joined #lisp 11:39:30 bitonic [~user@93-40-107-27.ip38.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 11:39:53 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 11:41:08 kushal [kdas@nat/redhat/x-pexuodpvhctrmvsp] has joined #lisp 11:41:09 -!- kushal [kdas@nat/redhat/x-pexuodpvhctrmvsp] has quit [Changing host] 11:41:09 kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 11:43:28 -!- xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.145.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 11:44:14 mathrick: I don't know. Yesterday I read a paper about how to avoid sql injections with lisp 11:44:21 ( Duh! ) 11:44:23 xpoqz [~xpoqz@80.203.124.203] has joined #lisp 11:44:30 -!- Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:44:32 I'm thinking of doing a sandboxed bot for a "hackme" at a conference 11:44:33 A: use a proper DB api, stupid 11:44:53 Don't build sql requests concatenating strings. 11:45:03 that's what "proper DB API" means 11:45:11 -!- DGASAU` [~user@91.218.144.129] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:45:27 p_l: it'd be nice if somebody figured out a robust way to sandbox / validate untrusted code loaded into the image 11:45:34 last I checked, nobody has done so 11:45:44 mathrick: AppDomain infrastructure like the one in CLR would be nice 11:46:02 but I'm going to use a lot of system support for my sandboxing 11:46:05 is AppDomain static? 11:46:05 muahahahahahahahaha 11:46:06 -!- bitonic [~user@93-40-107-27.ip38.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:46:21 -!- simon [simon@213.133.123.151] has left #lisp 11:46:27 I know java's sandboxer/validator is static 11:46:28 which is nice 11:46:29 mathrick: no. AppDomain is basically an "execution domain". By default you have only the initial one 11:46:34 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:46:44 foreignFunction [~niksaak@94.27.88.245] has joined #lisp 11:46:44 -!- zolk3ri [~zolk3ri@catv-89-132-196-182.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Changing host] 11:46:44 zolk3ri [~zolk3ri@unaffiliated/zolk3ri] has joined #lisp 11:46:44 ah 11:46:47 but you can create a new one and load code into it, including some reduced permissions 11:46:57 well, it's something to look into for my LispOS then 11:47:04 they might have useful ideas to steal 11:47:14 for a LispOS, I'd suggest looking into L4 and it's task model 11:47:45 I've already decided I want to base it on L4 :) 11:48:07 -!- rjmt__ [~uid1@46-65-28-90.zone16.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:48:17 but it doesn't mean I have concrete ideas on how to isolate tasks without losing the LispOS malleability 11:49:09 is safe execution of arbitrary untrusted code a sensible requirement to begin with? 11:49:18 bitonic [~user@93-40-107-27.ip38.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 11:49:23 NikolaiDante [~nikolaida@unaffiliated/knighterrant] has joined #lisp 11:49:37 -!- bitonic [~user@93-40-107-27.ip38.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:49:51 I say: virtual machine. 11:49:56 H4ns: yes 11:50:03 i'd kind of argue that virtual machines should be used to isolate trust domains 11:50:20 -!- kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:50:43 but a VM has to be implemented somehow, and you need to model the fact in Lisp terms if building a LispOS 11:50:56 and it should be possible to change the OS, *for the user* 11:50:58 i don't see that need. 11:51:02 bitonic [~user@93-40-107-27.ip38.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 11:51:16 "a bunch of Unix-style processes" is hardly a proper LispOS 11:51:21 virtualization is a hardware feature and should be mostly implemented by the hardware, not some hard-to-verify arbitrary code 11:51:25 -!- bitonic [~user@93-40-107-27.ip38.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:51:38 unix processes are a terrible abstraction anyway 11:51:42 -!- ski [~ski@c80-216-142-165.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:51:43 well, processes and binaries 11:51:47 There's no difference between hardware and software. 11:51:50 who was talking about unix processes? 11:51:51 moore33 [~moore@ABordeaux-153-1-3-125.w92-146.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 11:51:55 unix concept of binaries shares a good deal of blame 11:51:59 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 11:52:40 bitonic [~user@93-40-107-27.ip38.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 11:52:47 pjb: true - what it boils down to is the amount of code that needs to be trusted, be it hdl or "regular" software. 11:53:08 ski [~ski@c80-216-142-165.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 11:53:17 rootlocus [~rootlocus@124-171-9-98.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 11:53:31 H4ns: inspectability and malleability are desirable, and a bunch of VMs does not give you that 11:53:43 VMs are too opaque and too big a unit 11:54:21 i don't agree. i think talking "security" is big talk, and talking security while trying to build a lisp based operating system is, well, parody at best. 11:54:31 You can make small VMs. 11:55:01 H4ns: that's basically saying "it's not something that has historically been attempted at all, therefore it makes no sense even to try" 11:55:09 not a convincing argument 11:55:54 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-220-76.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:56:12 a para-VM approach is something that comes to mind, ie. have the VM-like boundaries by default, but allow them to be crossed when properly authorised 11:56:17 mathrick: no. i just think that the disadvantages of implementing security on the lisp os level outweigh the advantages. 11:56:32 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-220-76.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 11:56:46 last real attempt at lispOS was made 30 years ago 11:57:00 -!- impulse [~impulse@bas3-toronto48-1176313954.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:57:07 and it was not made for multi-user and/or multi-process computing at all 11:57:12 we've come a long way since then 11:57:12 Pray. If I win the lotto, I'll finance a new lisp os! :-) 11:57:32 there are sound security models which translate into lisp well 11:57:35 W7 for example 11:57:46 mathrick: you know why nobody tried to implement a multi user lisp os? because when they needed one, they already assumed that everybody would have their own machine. 11:58:06 in 2012, ALL OSs are multi-user 11:58:07 I thought some LMI machines were multi-user. 11:58:09 mathrick: and that is a safe assumption nowadays. you can even assume that your virtual machine is not actually virtual, but a real core. 11:58:14 simply because it's insanity to run one that isn't 11:58:22 mathrick: aha? 11:58:46 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:58:48 impulse [~impulse@bas3-toronto48-2925078626.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 11:58:52 H4ns: just throwing cores at the problem still does not give me an OS with the properties I want 11:59:03 it's still a blob of dumb, uninspectable code 11:59:21 VMs or not, it needs to have a security model that fits Lisp 12:00:12 Well, emacs has more than one million LoC of emacs lisp, that's also somewhat like a big blob of uninspectable code, Well, you can inspect small parts, but you'd need a life time to inspect it all. 12:01:29 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 12:03:06 -!- SHUPFS [~hercules@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:03:32 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-63-26.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:03:39 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 12:04:11 yeah, emacs is not a good model for modular, inspectable software architecture 12:04:21 climacs is much more that 12:05:41 but the fundamental issue is that if you don't reimagine the process model, VMs or whatever will only result in a big pile of code that does something, and about the only thing you can do to it externally is to kill it 12:05:59 it's like Android apps vs. Unix apps 12:06:06 -!- chimay [~chimay@unaffiliated/chimay] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:06:14 mathrick: have a look at eros-os.org and coyotos.org 12:06:20 android has a very good understanding of what parts and pieces an app has, so it can do much more interesting things with them 12:06:29 take Movtiz and write something like that. 12:06:35 -!- deadghost [~deadghost@71-84-68-72.dhcp.rvsd.ca.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 12:06:50 -!- Tristam [~Tristam@bodhilinux/team/Tristam] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:07:21 I think I'd rather marry SBCL with L4 12:07:23 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.2.1] 12:07:30 L4 is a better kernel, and SBCL is a better lisp 12:07:45 Aren't you wanting to write your own kernel? 12:08:11 not really, no 12:08:49 kushal [~kdas@114.143.161.209] has joined #lisp 12:08:49 -!- kushal [~kdas@114.143.161.209] has quit [Changing host] 12:08:49 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 12:08:52 So what you want is to boot L4 and then start sbcl as a replacement for init? 12:09:00 I have no illusions about being capable of writing one, and there's a lot of good kernel research and work that doesn't need to be reinvented 12:09:18 Cymew: L4 is more basic than that, it has no "init" 12:09:34 all L4 does is basically give you tools for mapping memory space 12:09:37 mathrick: 1- systems don't have to be big. 2- you only need to find a couple of abtractions you like and implement them. 12:09:44 and run threads in them 12:09:45 tagae [~user@2001:6a8:3080:2:99eb:c7cc:10fa:d1a6] has joined #lisp 12:09:53 Doesn't it has any idea of processes? Then you need to invent those I guess. 12:09:55 everything else is up to the higher OS layer 12:09:58 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 12:10:03 yes, exactly 12:10:18 reinventing the idea of process is necessary and desirable 12:10:27 reinventing the code to implement them, not so much 12:10:38 Cymew: you don't necessarily need to use unix-like processes. 12:11:06 rudi [~rudi@1x-193-157-242-7.uio.no] has joined #lisp 12:11:08 Unless the L4 idea of a thread is "fat" enough that your sbcl can be one of those and then run on top of that. 12:11:08 pjb: but L4 isn't big, and it has done all the hard work of creating an efficient microkernel substrate for me already 12:11:42 In a way, Movitz has done some of that hard work too. 12:11:48 I'm finding it hilarious that there are still people who think of Linux, L4, or some other opaque blob, with SBCL bolted to init, as a "lisp machine." 12:11:50 Cymew: it's not. A thread in L4 is basically an instruction pointer plus a small desciptor for storing pointers to the basic L4 calls 12:11:53 But sure, you can start from any VM. 12:12:19 asciilifeform: my idea is not to bolt on SBCL as in "port the unix version, except reimplement unix processes on top of L4" 12:12:33 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 12:12:39 they'd have to go hand in hand for anything resembling a lispOS 12:12:55 asciilifeform: I think people would be very happy with the user interface and programming environment of the lisp machines running on any kernel... 12:13:02 Get thee to a Lisp Machine emulator and be enlightened. 12:13:04 ie. SBCL would implement all of the semantics L4 doesn't 12:13:07 mathrick: I see. Then you do need to invent some kind of process look alike, I guess. 12:13:08 which is "all of them" 12:13:32 asciilifeform: to me, a "lisp os" is one in which i can write all code in lisp, from drivers to applications. 12:13:32 Cymew: yes, except not at all like unix process, because unix processes are a horrible abstraction for doing anything 12:13:37 nowadays that's called Emacs, I hear 12:13:51 Indeed, as a software programmer, using the unix process as a virtual machine to implement your own OS is cool. 12:13:52 asciilifeform: I have. It's an interesting model and a horrible thing to use in practice 12:13:58 mathrick: If you say so. I have no horse in that race. 12:14:01 that's why it needs to be reinvented 12:14:09 The whole point is to not have blobware anywhere in the mix. 12:14:25 Another valid choice seems to be to use the browser-embedded javascript environments as virtual machine in which to implement your own OS. 12:14:28 What the heck is "blobware"? 12:14:39 pjb: jslinux, he? :) 12:14:45 Cymew: things that you can't TRACE 12:14:46 Blobware is anything you can't pry open and see legible Lisp source. 12:14:53 dim: that's an additionnal intermediary VM indeed. 12:14:59 H4ns: thx 12:15:08 And, which, when it fails, produces crashes instead of traceable Lisp conditions. 12:15:17 asciilifeform: I find that accepting a tiny bit of most basic blobware, which wouldn't really be modifiable in practice anyway, but gives me a solid pre-existing base to work on, is a better tradeoff than going all Movitz 12:15:20 actually 12:15:25 pjb: apparently some CL implementations already target js as the running env 12:15:27 someone has made boot-to-SBCL 12:15:35 but it's still a blob in a sense 12:15:39 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:15:48 because the core-core of SBCL is a machine code blob 12:15:58 mathrick: what about using Movitz from VirtualBox? 12:16:06 dim: what about it? 12:16:11 (or xen, qemu, kvm, whatever you prefer) 12:16:12 mathrick: What's your beef with Movitz? I could find some faults with it, but would like to hear your. 12:16:18 mathrick: solves the problem or not? 12:16:19 well well, l4 has been the talk for some 20 years now, yet i've not seen any real operating systems use it successfully. i'm sceptical. 12:16:37 I like SBCL as far a conventional Common Lisps go, but it isn't clear to me that booting a Linux box to it gives you something more than just SBCL-on-Linux (exactly what I have now.) 12:16:38 answer_42 [~answer_42@gateway/tor-sasl/answer42/x-66983568] has joined #lisp 12:16:41 H4ns: HURD! :) 12:16:44 dim: I have no idea what you mean by movitz from VBox 12:16:52 dim: "precisely" 12:17:02 asciilifeform: that's more a question of userspace experience. 12:17:03 ok, that means I have no idea what you want to achieve, mathrick 12:17:06 fair enough 12:17:09 H4ns: there are actually commercial L4 OSs 12:17:09 edgar-rft [~GOD@HSI-KBW-078-043-123-191.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 12:17:32 there's a huge number of niche OSs for markets that aren't desktop PC 12:17:38 The LispOS question is more something for programmers, but the user interface can be reinvented too. 12:17:40 mathrick: i have not seen them. 12:18:17 I think most people agree that the whole suite of software is the experience of a lisp machine OS, but at least booting a lisp on top of l4 would give you a start to reimplement all that. Is it the easiest solution? Who knows. 12:18:40 I agree with mathrick that far 12:18:42 dim: I want something that can conceivably be run as an everyday modern OS, assuming a suitable supply of round tuits is available to be spent on its development 12:18:48 Fundamentally, the problem of a lisp kernel is the resources needed to develop the drivers: we don't have them. 12:19:02 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 12:19:04 KingsKnighted [~quassel@c-174-52-149-13.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:19:06 Cymew: Hmm, I think getting an X or OpenGL window would be a better start for reimplementation. 12:19:08 for the reason that pjb pointed out early on in the discussion, accepting some blob is more likely to yield usable results. 12:19:13 H4ns: do you have a phone with Qualcomm chip? 12:19:15 Hence the choice of keeping linux and its drivers as an hardware abstraction layer. 12:19:22 Depends on what you mean by "usable." 12:19:28 p_l: i have a samsung running android. 12:19:30 moore33: Could be an idea. Some did work up a X server in lisp 12:19:38 Consider linux+drivers to be firmware. 12:19:39 I want to try that approach with tracing the machine code execution for re-implementing drivers 12:19:41 there's a paper on it 12:19:51 Cymew: Not really my point :) 12:19:54 and it's apparently pretty viable in practice 12:20:05 moore33: I guess not. ;) 12:20:06 asciilifeform: self-hosted, not requiring the reimplementation of standard drivers. 12:20:14 for the reason that pjb pointed out early on in the discussion, accepting some blob is more likely to yield usable results. <-- that's L4 in my model 12:20:19 H4ns: if it's a qualcomm-based one, then it runs OLK4/Linux on baseband chip, where linux is used for non-rt stuff while RT tasks run directly on L4 12:20:21 talk is cheap. implementing an operating system is not. 12:20:23 mathrick: main problem: drivers. solution, target a fixed set of "abstract" drivers, that's called a VM nowadays, pick xen, kvm, qemu or VirtualBox, all of those if you want, that's a fixed set of drivers to code against. 12:20:51 or whatever the name for Nicta's commercial distribution of L4 was 12:20:55 mathrick: l4 does exactly what? abstract program counter and memory? hardly what i'd call "suite of standard drivers" or "self-hosted in a few days of work" 12:21:04 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-220-76.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:21:05 dim: that's something L4 is particularly useful for, since running slave Linuxes for their drivers is something that has been done in L4 before 12:21:08 -!- quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:21:22 p_l: ah, i see. nice. 12:21:24 and generally, "a microkernel" is useful for that reason 12:21:29 `fogus [~fogus@burke-matrex.d-a-s.com] has joined #lisp 12:21:30 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 12:21:39 I say start with Movitz on VirtualBox, see where you get, then show the code 12:21:58 H4ns: it abstracts IPC, task management, system/user land split, and allows you to build all other stuff quickly. Including running Linux as a process that exports (over IPC) various things including device support 12:22:11 If I can't pry open the scheduler and see Lisp code, or meta-middle-click on a scrollbar and see the same, in what sense do I have a "lisp machine" ? 12:22:11 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-220-76.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 12:22:43 asciilifeform: it's doable to do so, though you might not get the scheduler (for various reasons) 12:22:50 asciilifeform: Movitz on Xen with the required virtual drivers would be nice, indeed. 12:22:57 p_l: yes, that much i gather. i'd argue that if linux is running as an extra task to provide the drivers, it is not much different from running your lisp directly on linux. 12:23:03 H4ns: L4 gives you a substrate for building a OS. It implements memory management, efficient IPC, basic primitives for building processes and process-like objects in a hierarchy, and in case of Fiasco, also a capability-based security model for strict separation between L4-level threads 12:23:13 I think you need to accept some kind of blob to start with, then you can work downwards if you feel the need. 12:23:25 efficient IPC and memory management are exactly the areas which are essential, but hard to do in an OS 12:23:29 antonv [5d7d31f9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.49.249] has joined #lisp 12:23:49 Have you fooled around with Movitz mathrick? 12:23:58 H4ns: the difference is that you can a) slowly replace those drivers b) you're in control of 99% of how your OS is structured 12:24:05 kushal [~kdas@114.143.161.209] has joined #lisp 12:24:06 -!- kushal [~kdas@114.143.161.209] has quit [Changing host] 12:24:06 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 12:24:17 -!- Kvaks [~quassel@95.161.189.109.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:24:20 dim, Cymew : Movitz hasn't moved much, and really it has shown that "do everything from scratch starting with my own x86 assembler" is not the best approach 12:24:35 because you're building 1) a kernel (hard) 2) a Lisp (hard) 12:24:40 mathrick: well, it's more like memory management fundamentals - you still need a memory manager process, though one is usually (sort-of) included 12:24:44 so from the outset, you start with two hard tasks 12:24:53 -!- ur5us [~ur5us@40.198.69.111.dynamic.snap.net.nz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:24:55 The idea that you can "slowly replace the bottom layer" is a mistake. It is like trying to modify a horse, organ by organ, to get an eight-cylinder BMW. 12:25:09 The original design locks you in to certain ways of thinking. 12:25:10 L4 + SBCL gives you a ready kernel and a ready Lisp, so you can concentrate on the conceptual problems 12:25:14 p_l: agreed. and not being forced to use linux' memory "management" is actually a real plus. 12:25:20 instead of debugging yet another x86 assembler 12:25:21 mathrick: I think Movitz mostly proves that you need active cooperation and a team to do OS development. 12:25:23 urandom__ [~user@p548A1BE2.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:25:28 ...and also your points. ;) 12:26:00 asciilifeform: except in this case you start with your own way of thinking except for the bits taken by L4 12:26:11 If I can't pry open the scheduler and see Lisp code, or meta-middle-click on a scrollbar and see the same, in what sense do I have a "lisp machine" <-- scheduler no, scrollbar yes 12:26:13 Kvaks [~quassel@95.161.189.109.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 12:26:21 why do you assume that L4 precludes having inspectable scrollbars? 12:26:24 asciilifeform: with an "external blob" handling stuff orthogonally to your design 12:26:25 p_l: but then, one could also just allocate a few gigs of non-paged physical memory from linux and work off that. 12:26:36 peterhil [~peterhil@gatekeeper.brainalliance.com] has joined #lisp 12:26:50 H4ns: and still work in constraints of process model etc. 12:26:51 H4ns: that's what I have right now with SBCL on Linux. 12:26:56 although I personally think that making something that can appropriate blobs for pragmatic reasons is a better way to have a practical OS than building everything on your own 12:27:08 asciilifeform: me too :) 12:27:11 mind you, you can just get yourself L4 running *on* linux for initial work 12:27:15 so, have GTK+ + Lisp wrapper be the GUI at first 12:27:26 and then you can think about replacing it with a pure Lisp thing 12:27:56 mathrick: this is definitely a case of attempting a piecemeal horse-to-engine transition 12:28:00 Whatever the differing points may be, I'd love for you do get that thing flying, mathrick. 12:28:04 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:28:06 though for now I've got a both more and less challenging plan, and not exactly lisp-related, when it comes to OSes 12:28:21 namely, X12 12:28:23 asciilifeform: I don't know if you're arguing against or for, but L4 is a completely different level than Linux 12:28:41 -!- c_arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-gqjiafkgmuatcpxv] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 12:28:52 L4 locks you only into being something that moves, not into a horse shape 12:29:11 well, and it's "process" model... which is more about address spaces 12:29:12 OTOH, Linux is a Unix, and it locks you into many unixisms 12:29:20 I've love to see a horse with a BMW V8... 12:29:21 p_l: L4 doesn't have a process model 12:29:26 that's the point 12:29:35 it's several levels below having one 12:29:40 mathrick: well... it has *some* of it. Not everything :) 12:29:56 or rather, it provides you with skeleton to strap whatever semantics you want 12:30:09 and I submit that no matter what kind of process model you choose, it will involve a program counter and memory space at some point 12:30:23 Makes sense 12:30:24 so L4 doesn't really force you into anything running on a CPU doesn't already 12:30:32 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 12:31:02 Whatever the differing points may be, I'd love for you do get that thing flying, mathrick. <-- I'd love to too :) 12:31:07 and you might want multiple task sharing common address space... which is what L4 does. It gives you separate, *hierarchical* address spaces, containing multiple concurrent tasks, and IPC + syscall mechanism 12:31:14 p_l: what's X12? 12:31:24 mathrick: my idea for future of X11 12:31:33 and you might want multiple task sharing common address space... which is what L4 does. It gives you separate, *hierarchical* address spaces, containing multiple concurrent tasks, and IPC + syscall mechanism <-- exactly 12:31:39 Big vision Wednesday... 12:31:49 I want the lisp tasks inside to share their address space when needed 12:31:56 just in a sane, orderly manner 12:32:18 not the "I just crashed the OS because I miscompiled something in my emacs" manner 12:32:29 which is what original LispM's did 12:32:43 but why? 12:33:01 because I don't want to have to reboot just because I happen to be writing code? 12:33:14 and I certainly don't want adobe flash crashing to force me to reboot 12:33:20 mathrick: ever crash an actual Lisp machine? 12:33:25 *JuanDaugherty* checks that this isn't a serious discussion about a lisp os. 12:33:32 adobe flash is not written in lisp 12:33:45 -!- KingsKnighted [~quassel@c-174-52-149-13.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:33:50 asciilifeform: I've never seen an actual blood and flesh lispm, so no. But I've crashed the emulator images, yes 12:34:03 but then, with the transparency of a lisp machine comes the risk that one screws up things badly enough to crash the system. that is the price. 12:34:06 granted, they were hacked ports from alpha, so not very stable from the outset 12:34:19 The emulator (if we're talking about "Snap4") crashes if you look at it wrong. Unfortunately. 12:34:28 but I've also broken SBCL enough times in ways requiring me to restart the image that I know for a fact it's possible 12:34:31 asciilifeform: it gets better if you grab old enough linux 12:34:35 asciilifeform: yeah, snap4 12:34:37 i'm failing to see how one would have an operating system prevent me from nconcing a system data structure in a way that causes a crash. 12:34:44 and i don't actually want it to. 12:34:49 what 12:34:57 *you* can crash 12:35:00 the OS shouldn't 12:35:05 and I think I can get it running on original hw 12:35:13 but lispMs can be very effectively crashed by misbehaved code 12:35:25 H4ns: you can distinguish system data from user data, and prevent user code from mutating system data. 12:35:39 mathrick: if you judge lisp machines from snap4, you're not judging right :) 12:35:50 I'm judging them from the way they were built 12:36:02 pjb: i don't actually want the separation of user data vs. system data. 12:36:06 everyone using LispMs learnt not to do things if they wanted their machines to continue running 12:36:14 the point is these things should not result in a crash 12:36:26 mathrick: like when you drive a car, you learn not to leave the road at high speed. 12:36:42 You can crash anything you want if you methodically overwrite all of RAM with zeros. An OS cannot turn this into acceptable behaviour. 12:36:53 H4ns: I'd advise to use capabilities, and therefore it wouldn't be just system/user, but your code would just have to have the capability required to mutate a given data. 12:36:53 H4ns: no, it's more of "don't turn the blinkers and the wipers at the same time" 12:37:06 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:37:09 because in a lispM, it causes the engine to explode 12:37:45 -!- ski [~ski@c80-216-142-165.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 12:37:47 pjb: i thought we were discussing common lisp. 12:37:58 is there a ref on "L4" google turns up nothing 12:38:01 ? 12:38:05 Implement the capability system in Movitz (which is a CL implementation). 12:38:06 AlbireoX [~AlbireoX@76.78.168.247] has joined #lisp 12:38:07 JuanDaugherty: http://l4hq.org/ 12:38:14 ty 12:38:14 c_arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-tpqkgkwpbrvzcpvb] has joined #lisp 12:38:16 Most LispM users didn't spend their days screwing with system structures. And the latter were, for the most part, clearly marked. 12:38:20 pjb: i'm not quite sure whether a capability based common lisp is really what i want. might be. 12:38:32 pjb: on the Lisp level, W7 is an existing, provably strong capability system 12:38:37 They seem to have big advantages. 12:38:47 Considering that the thing took half an hour to boot, it would have been quite worthless if crashes had been frequent. They weren't. 12:38:54 H4ns: I want any new OS to be based on caps 12:39:07 writing a brand new OS in 2012 that doesn't provide them or an equivalent is insane 12:39:09 Do you mean Microsoft Windows 7 ? 12:39:18 win7 is not a new OS 12:39:21 ski [~ski@c80-216-142-165.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 12:39:28 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 12:39:46 H4ns: heh, "Open Kernel Labs announced that OKL4 has now shipped in more than a billion devices. This makes L4 one of the most widely-deployed OS kernel ever." 12:39:48 asciilifeform: and one of the big advantages of lispm's (in my eye) was that if some piece of system code caused an error, i'd be able to debug it right away, with the same set of tools and abstractions that i'd use for "user level" code. 12:39:49 Didn't Vista have some kind of priv escalation dialogs that popped up all the time? 12:39:56 asciilifeform: that was what dragged me into lisp initially. 12:40:27 mathrick: i'm a programmer, and i still have not seen l4. i may be programming the wrong things. 12:40:30 -!- answer_42 [~answer_42@gateway/tor-sasl/answer42/x-66983568] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:40:31 so there's not a single bit of expository prose on this thing, just the thing itself? 12:40:45 Cymew: security theater I believe its called :) 12:40:57 lol 12:40:58 Ah, I see. :) 12:41:00 JuanDaugherty: you need to try google harder, there is loads of papers on l4 and on operating systems that people wanted to construct on top of it. 12:41:05 H4ns: yes. and if you have compiled C code anywhere in the box, you don't have the ability to reason about the entire machine using the same concepts. 12:42:19 answer_42 [~answer_42@gateway/tor-sasl/answer42/x-66983568] has joined #lisp 12:42:32 I think the key point about L4 is"people wanted to construct". Less have been said about successfully implemented things. Maybe in CS journals... 12:42:34 asciilifeform: it is not only c, it is also the user-system boundary that is a pain to work with. 12:42:54 H4ns: "things I run on my PC" are very far from being the same as "OSs used in practice" 12:42:55 Cymew: i have just learned that l4 is the widest deployed microkernel in the world. 12:42:56 chimay [~chimay@unaffiliated/chimay] has joined #lisp 12:43:04 Right 12:43:04 for example, I've never run VxWorks 12:43:13 but it doesn't make VxWorks an OS nobody uses 12:43:22 The C world's obsession with faux-security (process isolation, capabilities, etc.) comes from atrocities like untyped machine words, buffer overflows, and the like - which simply wouldn't exist on a proper LispM. 12:43:28 if you bought a more recent model of WRT-54G, it runs VxWorks 12:43:29 H4ns: Just not where it's deployed. 12:43:30 mathrick: still, i'm mostly interested in things that i use or want to use. 12:43:42 do you need to know it for it to be true? Nope, you don't 12:43:59 H4ns: I'm merely pointing out that L4 is not something that isn't used in practice 12:44:00 it is 12:44:23 and you not knowing that doesn't make any of the billion OKL4 phones run less of L4 12:44:34 It sure could be better publicized though 12:44:50 you might similarly not build your next PC on an ARM, but ARM is still the most widely-used CPU 12:45:31 this channel feels like a taverna right now 12:45:32 mathrick: let's talk about lisp. i'm not interested in programming washing machines right now. 12:45:37 and ARM is a perfect example actually, because it used to be the invisible CPU everyone ran but nobody knew about, and with smartphones and tablets it has transitioned to a consumer CPU 12:45:47 *Cymew* suddenly remembers that he once wanted an Acorn Archimedes 12:45:55 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:46:45 H4ns: let's. My idea for a Lisp machine is that if I'm to pick my battles, kernels are the least interesting and least rewarding of them. L4 is a proven microkernel that's been used for a lot of stuff resembling what I want to do 12:47:01 and SBCL is a proven CL implementation 12:47:04 mathrick: so, what's next? 12:47:20 next is me getting round tuits and not slacking off at the same time 12:47:34 then I imagine coffe and scratchpads will be involved 12:47:59 I know bits and pieces, like L4, SBCL and W7, but I don't have the specifics down in a way that can be translated into code 12:48:05 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 12:48:16 (note: W7 has nothing to do with Win7) 12:49:00 there's a reason http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L4_microkernel_family doesn't mention lisp? 12:49:11 It sure could be better publicized though <-- it's publicised plenty enough for people who have any business knowing what L4 is :) 12:49:15 JuanDaugherty: L4 is pretty orthogonal to lisp 12:49:16 JuanDaugherty: it has nothing to do with lisp. 12:49:26 JuanDaugherty: yes. L4 as such has nothing to do with Lisp 12:49:26 JuanDaugherty: we were talking about using it for LispOS 12:49:35 ah 12:49:54 oh, and btw, I mentioned flash a while back 12:50:00 thisirs [~user@sic01043.sp2mi.univ-poitiers.fr] has joined #lisp 12:50:06 why is it called L4 then? 12:50:13 because it follows L3 12:50:29 because I'm being realistic enough to know I'm not going to write a pure Lisp browser comparable to chrome say 12:50:30 doesn "L4" also have nothing to do with lisp? 12:50:39 *does 12:50:48 and I'm not very interested in running an OS that can't browse web 12:50:54 so I know for a fact that some blobs will be necessary 12:51:12 and planning for the fact is better than pretending it won't happen and then not having any idea what to do 12:51:39 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 12:51:59 having a solid base where mix and match is possible is, IMHO, the best approach for an actual LispOS 12:52:00 *JuanDaugherty* get's it, he thinks. 12:52:15 Well, that's where xen and similar come handy: you can run firefox on linux on xen, and lisp on lispos on l4 on xen side by side. 12:52:18 steffi_s [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1178025755.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 12:52:32 you can run Linux on L4 directly 12:52:41 easier than mixing it with Xen 12:52:42 Well then even better. 12:53:08 L4 is notable as being the platform a great deal of other kernels have been ported onto 12:55:19 -!- jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@193.136.27.164] has quit [Quit: jcazevedo] 12:55:35 And L4 has been formally proven. CL on LLVM on L4 would be bliss, since LLVM has also proving modules. 12:55:41 wouldn't a good lisp OS have an abtraction of the kernel that largely obviated such discussions? 12:56:23 You'd want to implement those abstraction in lisp however. 12:56:41 yeah 12:56:53 naturlich, on the lisp side, the kernel should be whatever 12:57:05 JuanDaugherty: also, the underlying kernel can have big impact on how you structure the abstractions above it 12:57:08 in the way of a reified abstraction 12:57:22 aye 12:57:39 kernels is kernels, especially The abstracted one 12:57:52 that's why I don't think L4 is a big deal; it's sorta like fussing about the specifics of how your JIT for CLOS method selection is implemented 12:58:02 it's not actually essential to being a Lisp(OS) 12:58:08 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 12:58:43 but getting it right and fast it's pretty essential to having a usable Lisp implementation and not just a toy 12:59:28 for example, original Unix structure encouraged certain design by making forking cheap and using mainly filesystem for various things. Tenex and Multics used memory pages and shared memory as important abstractions. NT has expensive processes, with IPC system and object model, etc. 12:59:45 ya 12:59:50 and L4 has cheap IPC 13:00:05 fantazo [~fantazo@213.129.230.10] has joined #lisp 13:00:09 yep. Only Spring had cheaper IPC, I think 13:00:16 and it was bound to SPARC 13:00:38 spring? 13:00:43 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 13:00:57 *mathrick* reads 13:01:01 mathrick: a microkernel OS from Sun. Very fast. 13:01:20 the kernel is not that unimportant for a fast Lisp implementation, as you would want to let the kernel do the memory management eventually 13:01:23 i was reminded of mushroom by this discussion. http://www.wolczko.com/mushroom/index.html 13:01:24 "Using technology substantially similar to concepts developed in the Mach kernel" <-- heh, that doesn't make me think "fast" 13:01:49 spacefrogg: right, but it'd be SBCL doing the managing 13:01:55 L4 merely provides the primitives for that 13:02:01 mathrick: read later parts 13:02:12 that's certainly done wrong 13:02:12 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 13:02:34 you can have L4::Linux within 5% (I think) of how x86::Linux on the same machine performs 13:02:41 sbcl/whatever should implement a kernel service doing the management 13:02:54 well, SBCL already manages the memory today 13:02:56 that is the very point of micro kernel architecture 13:03:02 where Mach had very heavy-weight "ports", Spring had several IPC paths depending on use 13:03:10 it just requests a big blob of address space from the OS and does its thing 13:03:19 exactly SBCL has to do things it shouldn't because the kernel itself doesn't 13:03:29 mathrick: *every* thing on unix does that, just in different ways 13:03:44 as there are two calls you can get memory on unix with - mmap() and sbrk() 13:03:47 spacefrogg: SBCL would be the kernel for the OS from the point of view of the Lisp code 13:04:11 isn't the hard part getting sbcl's garbage collector to work with non-continuous memory? 13:04:24 then you do not use the advantages of micro kernels 13:04:45 H4ns: well, in this case we would have proper data about each page, so having continuous memory is not a problem 13:05:48 p_l: right - reserving large continuous address space areas should work with a decent memory management system. 13:06:13 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-220-76.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:06:20 Now, I only ask the question, how do you run sbcl on sbcl? (how do you run an application such as sbcl on a kernel written in sbcl?) That's where all the fun is. 13:06:41 why should anyone want to do that? 13:06:55 spacefrogg: that concern is orthogonal really. SBCL simply would be that service from where L4 sits, and it would also be the lowest level of the system and the kernel from where the client Lisp code sits 13:07:03 I'd want to run various CL implementations on a lisp OS. 13:07:17 also emacs, mplayer and firefox. 13:07:24 and acrobat reader. 13:07:27 mathrick: sure. but why reserve a decent garbage collector for lisp only 13:07:43 mathrick: just write a "public" service 13:07:46 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 13:08:21 pjb: most of your's are POSIX and need a POSIX abstraction layer -> L4/Linux 13:08:48 L4 itself does not follow POSIX conventions 13:11:52 spacefrogg: in L4, you'd have L4 -> sigma0 (highest-level memory manager) -> GC runtime & memory manager, then either in the same (or next) address space, Lisp runtime, with lisp tasks being run *under* that 13:11:54 inaimathi [~inaimathi@scipio.medirexsys.com] has joined #lisp 13:12:04 uhm is someone doing that lispOS on L4 thing or you guys just talking? 13:12:13 urandom__: mathrick is investigating it 13:12:24 Tristam [~Tristam@bodhilinux/team/Tristam] has joined #lisp 13:12:49 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 13:14:02 cool, well personally i think starting from scratch (that is starting at hardware level) ist way more fun but that l4 thing sounds reasonable 13:14:09 p_l: sure thing :) but stupidly allocating huge chunks of memory for "might come in handy"-situations cannot be the final word spoken here, can it? 13:15:12 the "new" lisp memory manager should better "integrate" in its environment 13:16:18 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Disconnected by services] 13:16:57 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 13:17:47 i guess you all are following the reddit thread on the lisp os thing. if not, here it goes: http://www.reddit.com/r/lisp/comments/10gr05/lisp_based_operating_system_questionproposition/ 13:18:00 spacefrogg: well, with L4 you can make the API give you all the data you want about the layout 13:18:12 because you're the one specifying the interface 13:18:25 *Xach* always loves to see remarks from people like mikel who have, you know, done it 13:18:41 -!- thisirs [~user@sic01043.sp2mi.univ-poitiers.fr] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 13:18:41 Xach: best kind of remark 13:18:43 yeah. he makes all the points that i can't properly express. 13:19:06 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 13:19:19 thisirs [~user@sic01043.sp2mi.univ-poitiers.fr] has joined #lisp 13:20:35 and nice info on bauhaus 13:21:08 fiveop [~fiveop@dslb-178-002-112-017.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 13:21:37 *p_l* personally has in his TODO list, as "someday", an OS that would have typesafe interfaces and common GC, hosting Forth, Haskell, Lisps, Erlang and probably some ML family 13:21:49 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 13:22:17 p_l: right. like the VAX calling convention. 13:22:28 H4ns: you mean VAX, or VMS? 13:23:34 p_l: yes, that's what I had in mind, actually 13:24:16 p_l: hm. now that you ask, i'm not sure. maybe VAX-VMS calling convention would be precise enough. 13:24:30 -!- macdice [~user@46-65-10-191.zone16.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: paranoia overload] 13:24:54 amng [~amir@91.99.63.247] has joined #lisp 13:25:01 H4ns: VMS has a common "interface generator" and set of common datastructures used in all system services 13:25:04 fun differntials should also be irrelvant 13:25:08 jfe [~jfe@12.34.212.237] has joined #lisp 13:25:10 hey all. 13:25:43 H4ns: which is probably what you thought about 13:25:53 p_l: that sounds more like establishing a convention than doing an implementation 13:26:18 spacefrogg: what sounds? 13:26:25 your TODO 13:26:45 p_l: back in the day, vms had descriptors for all sorts of data structures and all layered languages somehow supported passing data around in that format. anyway. 13:26:51 -!- `fogus [~fogus@burke-matrex.d-a-s.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:26:52 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:27:12 spacefrogg: it was dependant on the hw, which I still haven't made 13:27:18 i need to write a struct of a specified length (44 bytes), that contains long, double, float, short, and char fields. i haven't done byte-level i/o in lisp before... what is the typical way to do something like this? 13:27:31 p_l: such a tagged memory thing? 13:27:46 spacefrogg: actually not 13:28:10 spacefrogg: but the OS is an outgrowth of a plan to implement MMIX 1.0 in hw 13:28:22 jfe: write the fields out individually? i'm not sure writing out the struct as a whole can be depended on 13:28:45 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 13:28:52 p_l: :) 13:28:56 jfe: alternatively, use cffi and build a foreign struct .. but on the third hand, you have endianness to worry about 13:30:17 jfe: and, shameless promo, i recently made fast-io that has a number of routines for conveniently/efficiently writing to an octet-vector or stream, and you can use ieee-floats for encoding your floats 13:30:20 jdelook at binary-types 13:30:22 -!- homie`` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-191-152.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:30:28 jfe: even ^ 13:30:42 -!- drewc [~user@212.110.167.245] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:31:07 any idea why sbcl can't stack-allocate a struct with fields declared as :type single-float or double-float? 13:31:14 https://github.com/wychurry/lvp is not as exciting as i hoped it might be 13:31:19 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 13:31:37 Xach: what was the advertisment saying? 13:32:15 "lisp&py" 13:32:54 elegance 13:35:57 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-215-120-246.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 13:35:58 http://www.reddit.com/r/lisp/comments/10gr05/lisp_based_operating_system_questionproposition/c6dl7s3 <--- ... interesting point :D 13:36:15 -!- antonv [5d7d31f9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.49.249] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:37:27 so cool! 13:37:48 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 13:38:33 jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@193.136.27.164] has joined #lisp 13:38:48 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:39:25 gffa [~unknown@unaffiliated/gffa] has joined #lisp 13:40:19 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 13:40:38 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@217.17.38.43] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:41:01 mucker [~mucker@183.83.240.198] has joined #lisp 13:41:18 killerboy [~mateusz@217.17.38.43] has joined #lisp 13:41:34 I'd want to run various CL implementations on a lisp OS. <-- I don't think that makes sense 13:41:45 but definitely yes for a music player and a browser 13:43:09 spacefrogg: btw, SBCL really only reserves huge chunks of address space; actual memory isn't allocated until it's used (plus the GC overhead) 13:43:19 -!- rudi [~rudi@1x-193-157-242-7.uio.no] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/] 13:44:13 SBCL depends on demand paging behaviour 13:45:26 -!- justinmcp [~justinmcp@ppp118-208-147-102.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:45:27 mathrick: you allocate pages of memory or you don't. you need not reserve address space on a Linux system 13:46:05 spacefrogg: you kinda need, because otherwise some random piece of code might get that address space (stuff you call in external libs etc.) 13:46:11 yes you do, if you want things to be contiguous 13:46:29 mmap() lets you reserve address space without backing it with pages 13:46:50 mathrick: which doesn't work on linux, you get normal demand paging 13:46:54 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:46:59 p_l: oh? 13:47:05 kushal [~kdas@114.143.161.209] has joined #lisp 13:47:05 -!- kushal [~kdas@114.143.161.209] has quit [Changing host] 13:47:05 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 13:47:07 which is the source of the problem with disabled overcommit 13:47:07 I thought that interface was mandated by posix 13:47:11 mathrick: nope 13:47:17 curious 13:47:45 the flags to mmap aren't POSIX-mandated, and are apparently unimplemented in practice despite claims of the docs 13:47:59 oh Linux, you're so Linux 13:48:03 -!- foreignFunction [~niksaak@94.27.88.245] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 13:48:32 so you get normal demand paging and random OOM kills, or failure from mmap() if you disable overcommit and take too much memory 13:48:56 instead of SIGSEGV upon requesting a page that can't be backed 13:49:02 but back to the Lisp OS you would want to decompose the Lisp-kernel bits so that other implementations could make use of them 13:49:37 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:49:38 p_l: anywhere I can read up on VAX-VMS calling conventions? 13:49:47 kushal [~kdas@114.143.161.209] has joined #lisp 13:49:47 -!- kushal [~kdas@114.143.161.209] has quit [Changing host] 13:49:47 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 13:51:09 mathrick: http://www2.hmc.edu/www_common/OVMS073/v73/5973/5973PRO.HTML 13:51:13 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.96.48] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:51:14 thanks 13:51:19 mathrick: google for HP OpenVMS documentation, you should find a page that contains links to all VMS docs. Also, try finding the old book on VMS internals 13:51:29 oh, nice 13:51:41 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-215-120-246.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 13:51:49 I don't know anything about VMS really 13:51:57 mathrick: http://www.amazon.com/VAX-VMS-Internals-Data-Structures/dp/1555580599 13:52:02 ThomasH [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/thomash] has joined #lisp 13:52:03 that is a fun book. 13:52:03 besides the fact it has [] as the path separator 13:52:05 IIRC 13:52:09 Greetings lispers 13:52:10 drewc [~user@212.110.167.245] has joined #lisp 13:52:16 greetings ThomasH 13:52:38 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-215-120-246.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 13:52:50 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 13:53:11 mathrick: it has . 13:53:12 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Quit: Linkinus - http://linkinus.com] 13:53:23 [] is enclosing the path 13:53:57 HOST:DISK:[dir1.dir2]file.ext.ver or something like that 13:54:52 it also doesn't have "current working directory", but equivalent to Lisp's pathname-defaults 13:55:18 SET DEFAULT [.SUBDIR] and FIND [SOMEDIR...]*.*;* where the ... means all subdirs. I've been spending some time on OpenVMS lately. 13:55:55 quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 13:56:03 SET DEFAULT [-] for going up. The system would have been very nice in it's day compared to alternatives, but seems very antiquated now. 13:56:09 its 13:56:23 I gave up my VMS machine, and failing cooling system means running heavy stuff on my laptop is out 13:56:26 billstclair [~billstcla@p-69-195-55-139.dsl1.rtr.chat.fpma.frpt.net] has joined #lisp 13:56:26 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@p-69-195-55-139.dsl1.rtr.chat.fpma.frpt.net] has quit [Changing host] 13:56:26 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 13:56:30 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:56:37 stokachu [~zef@canonical/stokachu] has joined #lisp 13:57:04 A decent garbage collector must be aware of Lisp object structures. So asking for one that is equally-usable by Linux applications is a bit like "ordering fried ice." 13:57:41 asciilifeform: but it could be useful for a specific one 13:57:49 so why hide it? 13:57:49 fried ice-cream is very good ^_^ 13:58:52 ThomasH: interesting 13:58:57 killerbo1 [~mateusz@217.17.38.43] has joined #lisp 13:58:57 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@217.17.38.43] has quit [Disconnected by services] 13:59:05 OpenVMS/VAX was to Fotran what Lisp machines were to lisp, kind of. 13:59:07 angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has joined #lisp 13:59:22 eww fortran machines 13:59:24 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:59:42 *Fortran* 13:59:54 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-215-120-246.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:00:04 For instance, the LispM supported "broken hearts" (machine words marked to become transparent memory redirects when next accessed) in hardware, to avoid fragmentation. 14:00:31 -!- NikolaiDante [~nikolaida@unaffiliated/knighterrant] has quit [Quit: bye :)] 14:01:05 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 14:01:08 ThomasH: and several other langauges 14:01:10 *languages 14:01:10 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-215-120-246.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 14:01:15 asciilifeform: So you think todays machines are built with C execution models in mind? 14:01:26 spacefrogg: yes. 14:01:26 they are 14:01:28 as it was back in times when OS interface wouldn't be provided in C 14:01:36 glad we agree on that? 14:01:39 !* 14:02:46 do CL implementations make use of the layered memory architecture of today's machines? 14:03:12 spacefrogg: not any that I know of 14:03:36 when I started my OS project, this is what I wanted to make 14:03:39 what architectural requirements to they have? 14:03:52 what do you mean by layered? 14:04:01 RAM / swap? 14:04:06 pages 14:04:09 -!- nipra [~Adium@61.12.27.114] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:04:11 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@213.129.230.10] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:04:14 super pages 14:04:14 -!- jasox_afk is now known as jasox 14:04:19 I thought it would be neat to misuse paging, the TLB cache, and so on, for emulating having typed machine words 14:04:29 (instead of process memory separation) 14:04:47 thought so too but looks to inflexible 14:06:30 So, for instance, a machine word with the the 48th bit set would be a "broken heart", and trigger a dereferencing routine. And so on. 14:07:14 (amd64, at one point, supported 48 bits of address space. This number might be higher now.) 14:07:50 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:09:36 And if Lisp is in control of paging, you can have orthogonal persistence. That is, treating RAM solely as a transparent disk cache. 14:09:56 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@188.181.106.202] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 14:09:59 (Something even the LispMs did not have, because disks at the time were quite slow, and memory expensive.) 14:10:00 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-153-187.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:10:04 doesn't that interfere with processor context switches? 14:10:15 -!- amng [~amir@91.99.63.247] has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:10:32 You would use context switches solely for this. (No Unix-style process separation.) 14:11:24 how to protect memory then? 14:11:29 You don't. 14:12:03 With all memory-accesses mandatorily-bounds-checked, and no pointer arithmetic, you don't need memory protection. 14:12:14 -!- rootlocus [~rootlocus@124-171-9-98.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:12:35 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 14:12:45 how prevent to directly run assembler code from my application instance? 14:13:05 simple 14:13:22 indulge me 14:13:30 don't give user code the ability to assemble and jump into binary blobs at all 14:13:48 the way you can't, for example, from your browser's Javascript VM 14:13:57 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-153-187.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:14:26 managed-code is nothing new 14:14:57 -!- sysop_fb [~fb@108-66-160-34.lightspeed.spfdmo.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:15:02 milanj [~milanj_@178-223-163-100.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 14:15:13 people are emotionally fixated on process separation because C code allows arbitrary memory accesses through pointers 14:15:23 that means no support for less-managed-language except in separate VMs 14:16:11 or with an emulator. or on an ordinary computer sitting next to the LispM on your desk. 14:16:44 why is it so necessary to have a toilet in your kitchen? I don't want C blobs running with full privileges in my LispM. 14:17:56 -!- steffi_s [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1178025755.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: zzzz] 14:18:26 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 14:19:18 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:21:01 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 14:24:00 tensorpudding [~michael@99.23.122.140] has joined #lisp 14:24:13 xaxisx_ [~xaxisx@24.137.208.218] has joined #lisp 14:24:40 -!- xaxisx_ [~xaxisx@24.137.208.218] has quit [Client Quit] 14:24:52 -!- c_arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-tpqkgkwpbrvzcpvb] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 14:26:54 Is an implementation required to signal an error if both initial-element and initial-contents are supplied to make-array, or is the consequence implementation dependent? It wasn't clear to me from the hyperspec what is required. 14:27:51 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 14:28:42 *Xach* hmms 14:29:57 ThomasH: I think it's irrelevant. If you provide both, your program is nonconforming. 14:30:22 according to CLtL it "is an error" 14:30:44 sykopomp: Shouldn't a nonconforming program generate an error? 14:30:48 so it is undefined 14:31:17 ThomasH: It could generate nasal demons... 14:31:38 sykopomp: Given the current state of my allergies, it apparently has. 14:31:49 ANSI standard says: "initial-element cannot be supplied if either the :initial-contents option is supplied or displaced-to is non-nil." But no mention of what error is to be signalled. 14:32:10 as I said: it "is an error", see: http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/project/ai-repository/ai/html/cltl/clm/node11.html#SECTION00524000000000000000 14:32:28 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 14:32:33 mpstyler [~chatzilla@176.73.151.79] has joined #lisp 14:32:42 ThomasH: If your code has a chance of providing both, you need to protect against that beforehand, not handle a condition. 14:32:56 when ThomasH asked if "an implementation is required to signal an error," I assumed he is wondering about the ANSI standard. Not whether most implementations actually signal the error. 14:33:44 any errors would be for the benefit of debugging, as opposed to something meant to be handled. 14:33:56 btw, is anyone else upset about the scanned garbage you get when you pay ANSI for the PDF copy of the standard? 14:34:23 asciilifeform: yes, everybody who has purchased it 14:35:06 am I allowed to laugh at the scanned garbage, instead? 14:35:54 sykopomp: I'm not asking if it "is an error", I'm asking if "an error is signaled". I know that it is an error. Although your point concerning not relying on a condition is taken. 14:36:29 fantazo [~fantazo@91-119-67-128.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 14:36:33 asciilifeform: I can't image any reason to pay for a PDF copy of the standard. 14:36:44 ThomasH: if "it is an error", no implementation has to signal one 14:36:51 every implementation of CL I've used signals the error. 14:37:10 (under SBCL, "SIMPLE-ERROR") 14:38:58 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:41:56 -!- Cymew [~user@fw01d.snowmen.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:44:32 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 14:44:34 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu1.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:44:48 postfuturist [~sgoss@chirashi.kavi.com] has joined #lisp 14:48:31 -!- moore33 [~moore@ABordeaux-153-1-3-125.w92-146.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 14:50:48 -!- SeanTAllen [u4855@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-tcbbsyxaxgpzymjn] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:50:49 -!- PuffTheMagic [u3325@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-wjhafrstfeolqxtk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:50:49 -!- rvirding [u5943@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-hpnezepwumwlopoc] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:50:52 -!- NimeshNeema [u2689@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-qokufqiobjdrrnlc] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:51:06 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:51:12 foreignFunction [~niksaak@94.27.88.140] has joined #lisp 14:51:14 morning, anyone using cl-cairo2? any idea how to load a jpg file and create a surface? 14:52:16 Am I going crazy? I'm trying out COBOL just for fun. 14:52:36 loke: heh. Kinda have it set up for itas well :P 14:52:46 itas? 14:53:18 Personally, I heard of SCREEN SECTION, and I just wanted to see it in action for some reason. It works :-) 14:53:21 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 14:53:33 it as 14:53:45 ah 14:53:55 *p_l* got MVS and z/OS COBOL environments 14:54:26 -!- jfe [~jfe@12.34.212.237] has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:54:42 I've played with the free MVS on hercules a few times. But I just haven't find any good source for docs. At least docs that target me, a hobbyist with no mainframe experience who wants to learn the basics of how things work. 14:54:51 yeah 14:56:21 c_arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-eherzdnnpucnsbkf] has joined #lisp 14:59:24 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 14:59:48 vwvwvwv [~vwvwvwv@99-130-100-63.lightspeed.snantx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:00:50 mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.96.48] has joined #lisp 15:02:03 moore33 [~moore@ABordeaux-153-1-31-85.w92-149.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 15:02:06 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 15:05:04 -!- mpstyler [~chatzilla@176.73.151.79] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 15:05:53 rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has joined #lisp 15:06:02 mpstyler [~chatzilla@176.73.151.79] has joined #lisp 15:06:53 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@adsl-75-37-19-235.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 15:07:12 kpreid [~kpreid@adsl-75-37-19-235.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:07:44 fawxtin [~fawxtin@187.58.224.240] has joined #lisp 15:07:54 _d3f [~d3f@79.172.193.130] has joined #lisp 15:08:14 -!- tagae [~user@2001:6a8:3080:2:99eb:c7cc:10fa:d1a6] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:09:03 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 15:09:21 -!- ltbarcly [~ltbarcly@pool-71-116-78-211.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:10:18 -!- fawxtin [~fawxtin@187.58.224.240] has quit [Client Quit] 15:10:53 fawxtin [~fawxtin@187.58.224.240] has joined #lisp 15:11:01 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 15:11:05 -!- fawxtin [~fawxtin@187.58.224.240] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:11:52 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-215-120-246.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:12:43 fawxtin [~fawxtin@187.58.224.240] has joined #lisp 15:12:43 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-215-120-246.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:13:18 -!- schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-004-057.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:14:30 -!- vwvwvwv [~vwvwvwv@99-130-100-63.lightspeed.snantx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:15:00 naiv [~quassel@AAnnecy-552-1-300-152.w86-207.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 15:16:43 mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has joined #lisp 15:18:07 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 15:18:25 did anything happen after thought so too but looks to inflexible ? 15:19:12 no 15:19:43 -!- Spion is now known as Guest94137 15:20:01 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 15:20:38 mathrick: actually, there was 15:22:04 mathrick: asciilifeform told me his thoughts on managed-code and how to use current system architecture to achieve that 15:23:49 spacefrogg: I probably ought to mention that I ended up ditching x86 in the end. But this isn't really the place to describe why. Anyone who cares can read my site. 15:24:20 asciilifeform: that is? 15:24:21 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 15:24:25 loper-os.org 15:26:15 thx 15:26:54 I like how didier verna's site is completely unusable on mobile phones. 15:27:31 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-76-254-21-50.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:28:38 NikolaiDante [~nikolaida@unaffiliated/knighterrant] has joined #lisp 15:28:40 NimeshNeema [u2689@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-uqjtgtftwripyaiv] has joined #lisp 15:28:55 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 15:29:55 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-184-205-9.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:30:00 vwvwvwv [~vwvwvwv@rrcs-76-79-198-130.west.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:30:03 `fogus [~fogus@burke-matrex.d-a-s.com] has joined #lisp 15:32:12 -!- NimeshNeema [u2689@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-uqjtgtftwripyaiv] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:32:14 -!- Kvaks [~quassel@95.161.189.109.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:32:25 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 15:32:30 -!- c_arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-eherzdnnpucnsbkf] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 15:34:40 Kvaks [~quassel@95.161.189.109.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 15:34:48 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 15:38:52 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 15:39:07 atsidi [~nkraft_@mail.tai.edu] has joined #lisp 15:40:04 -!- hiredman [~hiredman@ip67-152-53-125.z53-152-67.customer.algx.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:40:18 hiredman [~hiredman@ip67-152-53-125.z53-152-67.customer.algx.net] has joined #lisp 15:40:54 mathrick: this chanel is logged, so you can google for the logs if you want to. 15:40:59 -!- varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:41:08 minion: logs? 15:41:09 logs: #lisp logs are available at http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/ (since 2008-09) and http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/lisp/ (since 2000) 15:41:16 http://rotty.xx.vu/irclogs/freenode/%23lisp/2012-09-26/ 15:42:06 -!- Tristam [~Tristam@bodhilinux/team/Tristam] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:42:14 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:42:23 rvirding [u5943@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-xndzfexntrgqluok] has joined #lisp 15:43:05 SeanTAllen [u4855@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-qbuvjmtcbcvaeerm] has joined #lisp 15:43:11 mathrick: sorry, I did not realize you were away in between. 15:43:16 sykopomp: and it looks like OS X, how quaint! 15:46:33 ltbarcly [~ltbarcly@216.113.168.141] has joined #lisp 15:47:39 -!- stokachu [~zef@canonical/stokachu] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 15:48:08 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 15:48:39 stokachu [~zef@cpe-071-070-129-073.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:49:04 pavelpenev: ah, right 15:49:05 -!- NikolaiDante [~nikolaida@unaffiliated/knighterrant] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 15:50:02 PuffTheMagic [u3325@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-oqnuywxfcppstlqo] has joined #lisp 15:52:37 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 15:53:16 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:53:22 kushal [~kdas@114.143.161.209] has joined #lisp 15:53:23 -!- kushal [~kdas@114.143.161.209] has quit [Changing host] 15:53:23 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 15:53:43 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@78-0-242-235.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:54:11 NimeshNeema [u2689@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-lhaakbmlvekacwmp] has joined #lisp 15:55:01 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:55:58 deadghost [~deadghost@71-84-68-72.dhcp.rvsd.ca.charter.com] has joined #lisp 15:57:20 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 15:57:33 Bike [~Glossina@75-175-72-75.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 15:58:48 is there some nice way to call common lisp code from elisp? 15:59:01 madnificent: slime 15:59:50 stassats: i'd prefer it to be outside of my slime instance. i'm often devving in that. though it's an option 16:00:51 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-153-187.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 16:03:28 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-153-187.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:03:50 steffi_s [~marioooh@x-132-204-243-254.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 16:04:01 -!- deadghost [~deadghost@71-84-68-72.dhcp.rvsd.ca.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:04:04 -!- steffi_s [~marioooh@x-132-204-243-254.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 16:04:04 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:04:43 -!- mpstyler [~chatzilla@176.73.151.79] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:04:49 am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has joined #lisp 16:05:08 -!- mucker [~mucker@183.83.240.198] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:06:23 mpstyler [~chatzilla@176.73.151.79] has joined #lisp 16:06:45 -!- paolo_m [~user@2-228-95-110.ip190.fastwebnet.it] has left #lisp 16:07:18 m7w [~chatzilla@178.172.204.59] has joined #lisp 16:08:06 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:08:06 c_arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-bywgzgkslnrstnum] has joined #lisp 16:08:17 -!- c_arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-bywgzgkslnrstnum] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:09:52 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 16:12:49 madnificent: just leave swank running and switch connections? you may even be able to write a function which sends directly to a connection without switching, or switches to and from, etc 16:14:01 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:14:07 oGMo: i was hoping a library of the likes existed. but i guess that'll be my best guess. not urgent, but i'll probably try to do it like that 16:14:43 madnificent: Let's say you're running a lisp image with swank separate from the one used by slime. You have an elisp macro that integrates CL in elisp, sending those forms to the lisp image. Now, are you going to parse the response back into some sort of elisp? 16:16:06 ThomasH: in this specific case i get back a quoted list. but yeah. if only emacs were written in common lisp 16:16:41 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:16:47 DGASAU [~user@91.218.144.129] has joined #lisp 16:17:04 madnificent: well .. you could roll your own in CL, and call the other CL from the one slime's connected to 16:17:11 madnificent: Spend your time with the hemlock that is being developed on CommonQT and resurrect that elisp library. 16:17:27 The elisp library for hemlock. 16:17:31 *oGMo* is planning an RPC on top of conspack, but not there yet 16:17:32 -!- fawxtin [~fawxtin@187.58.224.240] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:17:36 -!- mpstyler [~chatzilla@176.73.151.79] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 16:17:52 climacs? hemlock? CCL ships with an editor right? 16:18:02 dim: On Mac 16:18:06 oh and Tromey efforts to port Emacs to CL, you could help 16:18:34 http://tromey.com/blog/?p=709 and http://tromey.com/blog/?p=751 16:19:05 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 16:19:18 -!- Yuuhi`` [benni@p5483B387.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:20:15 i don't think i'm up for that much work at the moment. 16:20:40 too bad 16:20:46 perhaps you should start by writing a lisp OS kernel which implicitly supports .. ;) 16:20:52 pjb: interested? 16:20:52 madnificent: Given the state of those projects, it doesn't appear that they are either. It's a big task with little immediate reward. 16:22:09 bjorkintosh [~bjork@ip68-13-229-200.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 16:22:27 ThomasH: indeed 16:22:43 NikolaiDante [~nikolaida@unaffiliated/knighterrant] has joined #lisp 16:22:48 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@static-217-133-17-91.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:22:51 tiripamwe [~tiripamwe@41.221.159.85] has joined #lisp 16:23:31 -!- anaumov [~anaumov@opensuse/member/Alexander-Naumov] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:25:17 -!- bitonic [~user@93-40-107-27.ip38.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:25:34 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:25:59 mathrick [~mathrick@94.144.63.86] has joined #lisp 16:28:02 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 16:30:32 but. Emacs. In CL. Isn't that a worthy reward? 16:31:59 a lot of people probably wouldn't recognize the result as "emacs," if you omit bug-for-bug compatibility and the trash heap that is elisp 16:32:06 so it would probably be best to call it something else. 16:33:15 clemacs 16:33:17 ;) 16:33:33 bah 16:33:44 dude there's already climacs 16:33:48 -!- tiripamwe [~tiripamwe@41.221.159.85] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:35:10 i couldn't enable the modifier settings in clim, due to me not having enabled the keyboard and the language for US-english besides of my major input method (german) 16:35:11 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 16:35:41 now i did that in kde, added the language and the keyboard-layout to the settings stuff for regional stuff, and input stuff..... 16:35:48 and it's working 16:36:42 but that's confusing, cause it's if the DE is not offering it, it fails totally..... 16:36:49 CLIM is rather ... damaged thing 16:37:02 damaged? like there was something to damage! 16:37:05 I don't think I want to keep it. Learn from it? Yes. 16:37:05 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 16:37:33 p_l: i should maybe give you my sources 16:38:11 hmmm 16:38:15 where can i put them ? 16:38:29 is there an online store where i can put a full directory ? not file by file ? 16:38:44 github 16:39:07 wbooze: dropbox is an option, but yeah, github or bitbucket is better for code. 16:39:18 i think yes github will do 16:39:23 but they want ssh and what not 16:39:33 the horror! 16:39:42 it takes time to set that up, and i always loose my .ssh keys anyway.... 16:39:55 -!- Bacteria [~Bacteria@115-64-180-132.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Quit: Bacteria] 16:39:59 bitonic [~user@93-40-107-27.ip38.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 16:40:12 like on next crash of my system (if it's unrecoverable) i'll have to install it anew and all (almost) settings are gone..... 16:40:20 tiripamwe [~tiripamwe@41.221.159.84] has joined #lisp 16:40:49 wbooze: bitbucket gives you free private repos, so it's a great place to hide the erotic fan fiction I write, ^H^H^H the bad code I don't want anyone to see yet. 16:41:12 :L 16:43:54 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:44:41 orangepnut [~cody@fl-184-4-188-163.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 16:44:42 -!- orangepnut [~cody@fl-184-4-188-163.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Changing host] 16:44:42 orangepnut [~cody@unaffiliated/orangepnut] has joined #lisp 16:45:04 -!- bitonic [~user@93-40-107-27.ip38.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:45:36 bitonic [~user@93-40-107-27.ip38.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 16:46:12 -!- tiripamwe [~tiripamwe@41.221.159.84] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:47:41 the noko lisp is funny 16:49:34 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 16:49:59 steffi_s [~marioooh@x-132-204-243-254.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 16:50:20 -!- bitonic [~user@93-40-107-27.ip38.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:50:33 agumonkey [~agu@235.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 16:51:23 bitonic [~user@93-40-107-27.ip38.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 16:51:54 jorgen_ [~jorgen@g225076231.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 16:51:57 sabalaba [~Adium@107.204.238.82] has joined #lisp 16:52:40 p_l: Very interesting individual. If society collapses, I'd put my money on him continuing to survive just fine. 16:52:48 mpstyler [~chatzilla@176.73.151.79] has joined #lisp 16:52:50 Him being Timo Noko. 16:53:28 yeah 16:53:30 -!- vwvwvwv [~vwvwvwv@rrcs-76-79-198-130.west.biz.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:53:40 got the nokolisp running in dosbox 16:53:54 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-175-209.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:53:58 now I need to rediscover where I lost my copy of Sapphire CL as well 16:54:18 and why we couldn't have used it back when I was in primary school... 16:56:16 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:58:48 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 16:59:01 -!- inaimathi [~inaimathi@scipio.medirexsys.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:59:16 Heh, I read that issue of Byte when I was 13. 16:59:36 -!- trigen [~MSX@2001:0:5ef5:79fb:1c8c:323b:2bd6:7949] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:00:29 trigen [~MSX@2001:0:5ef5:79fb:1c8c:323b:2bd6:7949] has joined #lisp 17:00:55 we were taught "IT" and "programming" by definitely under-educated former physics teacher who was rather unprepared for teaching the new subject, with a bunch of 486 Overdrive machines on Novell network, with Logo and win3.1 17:01:22 unfortunately, it definitely lacked a way for exploratory, fun programming... partially due to lack of books 17:01:28 and help from teacher 17:01:37 kennyd [~kennyd@78-0-242-235.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 17:02:23 -!- ignas [~ignas@office.pov.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 17:02:44 pnpuff [~pnpuff@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 17:03:25 We used Atari Logo on the Atari 800, then we got a bunch of apple 2s and used logowriter 17:03:33 -!- spacefrogg is now known as spacefrogg^ 17:03:50 lolprog [~let@94-225-44-126.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 17:05:28 p_l: how do you let the others read/download your code on bitbucket ? 17:05:34 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:05:43 p_l: is that only via invites ? or is there a global option too ? 17:06:15 wbooze: don't remember, not using bitbucket much 17:06:23 you can probably make the repository public 17:06:28 -!- mpstyler [~chatzilla@176.73.151.79] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:06:42 then it will be possible to get the download link from the page 17:07:24 -!- atsidi [~nkraft_@mail.tai.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving, leaving, gone...] 17:07:49 mpstyler [~chatzilla@176.73.151.79] has joined #lisp 17:08:11 wbooze, everyone can view your public repositories on bitbucket 17:08:13 trewq [~Adium@216.234.148.134] has joined #lisp 17:08:15 even without an account 17:08:16 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 17:08:29 you must set your repository to public however 17:09:05 aaah git clone https://wbooze@bitbucket.org/wbooze/climacs-clim-listener-beirc.git it is 17:09:20 *Quadrescence* will actually give a short tutorial at ILC about how to publish lisp code on bitbucket and quicklisp... http://arxiv.org/abs/1209.5626 17:09:46 Hi Folks - I am using rst-mode with emacs and osx, and wanted to see if anyone can help me a stackoverflow Q: http://tinyurl.com/ctcpeqf - It is related to lisp and wanted to see if you all had any suggestions 17:10:01 trewq: #emacs 17:12:46 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-175-209.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 17:12:51 -!- sabalaba [~Adium@107.204.238.82] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:15:15 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:16:52 Daisy [~Daisy@95.209.76.161.bredband.tre.se] has joined #lisp 17:17:35 -!- orangepnut [~cody@unaffiliated/orangepnut] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:18:49 -!- NikolaiDante [~nikolaida@unaffiliated/knighterrant] has quit [Quit: I'll return soon after improving my manners and decorum] 17:18:53 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping 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#lisp 20:39:55 ltbarcly [~ltbarcly@pool-71-116-78-211.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:40:01 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 20:45:22 Tristam [~Tristam@bodhilinux/team/Tristam] has joined #lisp 20:45:40 -!- naiv_ [~quassel@AAnnecy-552-1-352-126.w90-41.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:46:46 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:47:48 pirateking-_- [~piratekin@unaffiliated/pirateking---/x-2885143] has joined #lisp 20:48:48 -!- eldariof [~CLD@pppoe-204-244-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has quit [] 20:49:08 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 20:49:11 -!- uselpa [~uselpa@83.99.17.49] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:49:47 -!- fiveop [~fiveop@dslb-178-002-112-017.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: humhum] 20:51:11 tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-88-12.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:52:30 qptain_Nemo [~qN@81-235-52-30-no79.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 20:53:57 ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.189] has joined #lisp 20:55:14 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@82.208.57.182] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net] 20:55:18 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:55:41 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 20:55:51 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20:58:12 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 20:58:54 -!- lolprog [~let@94-225-44-126.access.telenet.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:00:43 As quiet as it is in here, I expect to see lots of commits on my common lisp github feed. 21:01:41 :) 21:02:03 *stassats* commits quietly to a private repo 21:05:10 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 21:06:42 -!- eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:06:49 -!- 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21:33:30 -!- Tristam [~Tristam@bodhilinux/team/Tristam] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:35:20 -!- setmeaway2 [setmeaway3@119.201.52.168] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:35:54 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:36:25 -!- fawxtin [~fawxtin@187.58.224.240] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:36:54 -!- Bike [~Glossina@192.102.5.50] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:37:24 -!- zolk3ri [~zolk3ri@unaffiliated/zolk3ri] has quit [] 21:37:55 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 21:38:02 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 21:42:02 Bike [~Glossina@192.102.5.50] has joined #lisp 21:43:34 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-4d011f31.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:43:38 Ralith [~ralith@d142-058-175-126.wireless.sfu.ca] has joined #lisp 21:44:35 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 21:44:42 Bike_ [~Glossina@192.102.5.50] has joined #lisp 21:45:32 -!- ace4016 [~ace4016@cpe-024-074-197-085.ec.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: When there's nothing left to burn you have to set yourself on fire.] 21:46:30 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 21:46:51 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:47:01 vwvwvwv [~vwvwvwv@rrcs-76-79-198-130.west.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:47:07 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 21:47:25 -!- Bike [~Glossina@192.102.5.50] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 21:51:16 we'll have lispos tomorrow. 21:51:33 if tomorrow is 1983 21:51:52 -!- justinmcp [~justinmcp@ppp118-208-147-102.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:52:02 ace4016 [~ace4016@cpe-024-074-197-085.ec.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:52:23 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:53:05 I wonder what it would take to get Genera open sourced, if only for the historical value 21:53:41 ltbarcly: No need to wonder, you can get it, slightly illegally, off of the torrent 21:54:16 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:54:22 I appreciate that it is there for reference or curiosity, but nobody is going to do anything interesting with it until it has a free license 21:54:56 even if a license, i'm sceptical as to whether interesting things can be done with it. 21:55:33 i mean it is adorable, but age actually has a meaning in computing, and things have been moving pretty fast. 21:55:48 Bike [~Glossina@192.102.5.50] has joined #lisp 21:55:49 well, CL hasn't been moving very fast :) 21:56:04 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 21:56:26 I don't think it's a good modern OS, but it might be interesting as an application development environment 21:56:31 true enough, but genera is not even written in cl. to my knowledge and from some light experience, it is an adorable mess. 21:56:46 yea, I guess I should have guessed that 21:57:04 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:57:09 although I bet you could say the same thing about like 90% of open source 21:57:11 still, it'd be nice if one could look at it legally. 21:57:31 -!- Bike_ [~Glossina@192.102.5.50] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:57:35 only a few really central projects are really clean, 90% of oss is a hot mess 21:57:49 yeah, but at least most of the open source stuff does not require you to completely re-think your expectations how a gui should react. 21:57:50 and 99.99999995% of closed source software is worse 21:58:01 ahh, I see what you mean 21:58:18 H4ns: You mean like Win8? 21:58:49 genera was only trumped by the apollo domain ui when it comes to the wtf rate trying to use it. 21:59:00 (my experience) 21:59:35 win8 is fantastic, except where you use it 21:59:47 the tech is fantastic 21:59:54 -!- Bike [~Glossina@192.102.5.50] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:00:06 I mean, it's no linux, but it's great :) 22:00:13 I have no opinion on that, I'm more interested to see how well and where it gets adopted. 22:00:26 I think the weird boxes are going to freak people out 22:00:41 also, their new UI guidelines are really really annoying 22:00:54 -!- axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-88-224.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:01:00 AlbireoX [~AlbireoX@76.78.168.247] has joined #lisp 22:01:09 I have a win7 VM that I use solely to run outlook, and I made the mistake of moving to office 2013, holy crap 22:01:40 oh please, if windows is the alternative, let's praise genera! 22:02:01 -!- Trystam [~Tristam@bodhilinux/team/Tristam] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:02:04 Maybe you've seen the video the guy made of his dad using win8, and he somehow got stuck in Metro and never figured out how to escape back to desktop after 15 minutes 22:02:12 don't we praise genera on general principle 22:02:14 that's how you move a stock price 22:02:28 -!- vwvwvwv [~vwvwvwv@rrcs-76-79-198-130.west.biz.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:02:56 then there was the bing pepsi challenge thing, which was just sad 22:03:06 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:03:14 I guess I'm saying it might be time to start thinking short thoughts about MSFT 22:03:38 anyway, I would like to get genera running just to poke at zmacs 22:03:59 does anybody use climacs? is it even worth looking at? 22:04:55 wbooze does, and it's not worth looking at 22:04:55 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 22:05:01 vwvwvwv [~vwvwvwv@rrcs-76-79-198-130.west.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:06:23 -!- Guest94137 is now known as spion 22:06:42 god, emacs is never going to die 22:06:42 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-184-205-9.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:07:44 you can always use vim and pretend that you're happy 22:08:26 I want super-emacs 22:08:46 -!- arrsim [~user@mail.fitness2live.com.au] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:08:54 and a pony? 22:08:57 beast-man-superman => vi-emacs-superemacs 22:09:43 arrsim [~user@mail.fitness2live.com.au] has joined #lisp 22:09:47 zmacs is terribly annoying to figure out if you don't already know zmacs 22:09:58 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-184-205-9.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:10:09 genera in general makes little sense when seen from the perspective of modern UI conventions 22:10:09 if you want to appeal to the SF hipsacker scene you can make the tagline of your project "ponies included" 22:10:20 ponies! 22:10:36 mathrick: you can say that again, but replace zmacs with ?macs 22:10:45 bigmacs? 22:11:02 statssats: ?macs, not *macs 22:11:16 imacs 22:11:19 lol 22:11:39 I was hanging around in #emacs a lot in the early 2000s 22:11:47 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 22:11:49 a lot 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