00:01:13 also the part where you (mostly-)machine-transform between stateful and pure code is really interesting, I think. perhaps even needs its own paper 00:02:59 DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@1.150.233.160] has joined #lisp 00:04:17 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:06:53 -!- booguie [~booguie@wsip-98-172-168-236.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:09:20 -!- robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:11:09 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 00:12:02 dnolen [~user@static-68-161-224-153.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:12:07 -!- Mazingaro [~Tetsuja@host57-4-dynamic.10-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:12:54 robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:17:06 superflit_ [~superflit@75-166-68-110.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 00:18:33 -!- superflit [~superflit@75-166-77-17.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:18:33 -!- superflit_ is now known as superflit 00:18:47 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 00:21:04 -!- dnolen [~user@static-68-161-224-153.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:21:05 steffi_s [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1178025755.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 00:23:23 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A1E14.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 00:24:23 jleija [~jleija@50.8.41.50] has joined #lisp 00:25:36 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 00:26:29 cmm: problem being, in theory it's somewhat trivial, and in practice it requires introducing the whole interface machinery. 00:26:48 madalu [~user@unaffiliated/madalu] has joined #lisp 00:27:19 trivial, as in, anyone who's studied semantics will be anything but surprised by the result. 00:27:30 it's kind of obvious 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seconds] 02:02:13 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 02:02:27 caltelt [~caltelt@96-42-49-120.dhcp.eucl.wi.charter.com] has joined #lisp 02:04:18 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 02:05:56 -!- milanj [~milanj_@109-93-103-71.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:06:47 -!- jfe [~jfe@ool-18bfe75c.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: afk] 02:07:51 kennyd [~kennyd@37.244.181.18] has joined #lisp 02:09:11 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:09:35 jfe [~jfe@ool-18bfe75c.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 02:12:31 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 02:14:22 -!- huangjs [~huangjs@69.84.244.131] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 02:19:30 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:19:54 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@37.244.181.18] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:23:58 if you have a pathname, such as #P"/home/robot-beethoven/best.file", and the file doesn't exist yet, what's the best way to create an empty file (i don't want to write any data to it at the moment)? 02:24:23 gp5st [~jim@c-67-171-67-14.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:26:07 robot-beethoven: (open file :direction :probe) will create an empty file 02:26:14 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 02:26:27 hello. i'm not new to programming, but i am new to lisp. i was wondering what dialect has a good, vibrant community. 02:26:30 -!- AlbireoX [~AlbireoX@76.78.168.152] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:26:37 Xach: thanks 02:27:51 gp5st: Common Lisp, Scheme, Emacs Lisp, Clojure, probably more. 02:28:02 i know there is clojure, scheme, emacs lisp, and common lisp. otherwise i'm not even sure what is out there 02:28:18 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:28:29 well, this channel is about common lisp, though some of us use other dialects from time to time 02:28:39 scheme is (IMHO) very fragmented 02:28:44 Xach: do you have a suggestion of which would be a good starting place 02:29:06 Clojure brings JVM (which is pros and cons). Emacs Lisp is limited by Emacs 02:29:12 gp5st: common lisp is pretty great 02:29:14 p_l|backup: yeah, i just wasn't sure where else to start. i'm not opposed to using common lisp, i just wanted to ask. 02:30:16 i'm on an ubuntu-based system. is clisp the best package to use? 02:31:02 SBCL is the best, and it is probably best installed from sbcl.org rather than through the package manager. 02:31:02 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:31:23 gp5st: get SBCL, don't use distro packages for anything else (possibly install it from tarball from sbcl.org as well). Then use quicklisp 02:31:27 http://www.mohiji.org/2011/01/modern-common-lisp-on-linux/ is a walkthrough 02:31:31 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:31:47 thanks 02:33:19 -!- salacious_ [~methz@37.244.181.18] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:33:50 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 02:34:32 -!- justinmcp [~justinmcp@ppp118-208-147-102.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:34:50 salacious [~methz@37.244.181.18] has joined #lisp 02:35:28 justinmcp [~justinmcp@ppp118-208-147-102.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 02:37:51 quicklisp looks pretty nice. that was going to be my next question (what's the best/most used library manager) 02:38:50 pirateking-_- [~piratekin@unaffiliated/pirateking---/x-2885143] has joined #lisp 02:39:07 p_l|backup: Common Lisp brings JVM too. With TWO implementations! 02:39:32 pjb: well, I meant the ecosystem, outside of ABCL :D 02:40:09 gp5st: SBCL is not the best: it produces one of the biggest executables, it is slow to compile, it has new versions every months. There's a lot to critisize about SBCL. 02:40:31 gp5st: there are a lot of different implementations, with different features, strong points and weak points. 02:40:32 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 02:40:41 They are all good for something. 02:41:16 pjb: true, but right now my biggest concern is being able to find help when i get in over my head. 02:41:34 You'll be able to find help whatever implementation you use: we use all of them! 02:41:35 -!- steffi_s [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1178025755.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: zzzz] 02:41:47 pjb: :) 02:41:52 -!- ivan\ [~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 02:41:54 As I said they have different strong points, so you use each one in different circumstances. 02:41:58 kennyd [~kennyd@37.244.181.18] has joined #lisp 02:42:59 Eg. I use clisp for my scripts, ccl for my MacOSX GUI programming, sbcl for my servers, ecl for my embedding needs, ABCL when I have to target the JVM, allegro CL or Lispworks when I work for corporate, etc. 02:43:55 -!- jfe [~jfe@ool-18bfe75c.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: afk] 02:44:00 i see. 02:44:00 mucker [~mucker@183.83.240.198] has joined #lisp 02:44:14 gp5st: http://cliki.net/ gives all the information you need. As a programmer, you could start reading PCL Practical Common Lisp http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ 02:44:31 thanks 02:46:19 leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has joined #lisp 02:47:01 mcsontos_ [~mcsontos@77.240.184.15] has joined #lisp 02:47:07 ebobby [~fms@70-36-138-66.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 02:48:27 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 02:50:34 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-66-73-241.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 02:51:33 ivan\ [~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001] has joined #lisp 02:54:30 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 02:55:51 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@37.244.181.18] has quit [Quit: bye] 02:58:27 vlion [~vlion@66-87-74-85.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 02:58:59 B3tamax [~j@ool-43548287.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 03:00:23 thanks guys:) 03:00:24 -!- gp5st [~jim@c-67-171-67-14.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has left #lisp 03:02:12 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 03:02:18 So I am compiling sbcl 57 & 58 and sb-posix refuses to build successfully on 64-bit Linux. Is there a library I need to install to get it working? 03:02:30 -!- benny [~user@i577A1E4F.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 03:02:38 -!- qptain_Nemo [~qN@81-235-52-30-no79.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:04:22 NikolaiDante [~nikolaida@unaffiliated/knighterrant] has joined #lisp 03:04:40 -!- BrianRice [~water@71-217-119-7.tukw.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: BrianRice] 03:04:59 BrianRice [~water@71-217-119-7.tukw.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 03:05:57 jfe [~jfe@ool-18bfe75c.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 03:06:50 vlion: please paste the error message 03:08:06 Warning! Some of the contrib modules did not build successfully or pass their self tests: failed contribs: sb-posix 03:08:20 Grepping logs further.... 03:08:50 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 03:09:04 tensorpudding [~michael@99.23.123.60] has joined #lisp 03:09:11 AlbireoX [~AlbireoX@76.78.168.152] has joined #lisp 03:09:40 -!- JPeterson [~JPeterson@s213-103-211-58.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 03:10:30 -!- justinmcp [~justinmcp@ppp118-208-147-102.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:10:41 gigamonkey_ [~gigamonke@adsl-99-155-195-199.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:11:39 ok, new title -- LIL: CLOS meets higher-order datastructures and has a transforming experience 03:11:44 steffi_s [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1178025755.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 03:11:44 -!- steffi_s [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1178025755.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 03:11:58 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 03:13:13 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-155-193-40.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:13:14 -!- gigamonkey_ is now known as gigamonkey 03:13:32 It had issues grovelling for sigemt, o_nofollow, and a number of others. ( copying from work box to IRc, sorry for the non-paste) 03:16:02 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 03:16:59 hmmm 03:17:12 no idea right now, but that's probably because it's 0516 here 03:17:42 That's a new version of the new moon bug: when it's 05:16 somewhere, anything may happen. 03:17:43 springz [~springz@123.151.195.1] has joined #lisp 03:18:18 lol 03:18:42 actually, I associate magic and weirdness with full moon... 03:18:45 I notice this error message here and there in the Googles, but im not finding a note that indicates ' need lib xyz' 03:19:21 vlion: which OS? 03:19:32 vlion: might be missing some headers, I guess 03:20:08 Linux 64 bit 2.6.32 etc. I betcha it's a missing header but don't know which it might be 03:20:40 vlion: which distro? 03:20:58 Hard to help without the exact error message. 03:21:26 Ubuntu lucid 03:21:28 -!- salacious [~methz@37.244.181.18] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi] 03:22:02 check for a package with kernel headers or similar 03:22:29 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 03:22:35 -!- jleija [~jleija@50.8.41.50] has quit [Quit: leaving] 03:24:32 kanedank` [~user@pool-72-74-50-53.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:25:06 -!- kanedank [~user@pool-72-74-50-53.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:26:54 drewna [~user@bobby.CS.unlv.edu] has joined #lisp 03:26:56 p_l|backup: Ill give that a spin... 03:26:59 -!- robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:27:46 pkhuong: Pastebin.com/fFeaETdA lets hope I copied that right 03:29:36 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:29:54 Hello. Just starting out with CL. What is the best CL continuation library in peoples' opinions? 03:30:41 -!- jfe [~jfe@ool-18bfe75c.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: quit] 03:31:12 kennyd [~kennyd@37.244.181.18] has joined #lisp 03:31:16 -!- mucker [~mucker@183.83.240.198] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:31:30 vlion: libc6-dev? 03:33:11 jji: Already there. :-/ 03:35:10 -!- SsvRrwQ [~user@24.68.50.61] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:36:05 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 03:36:12 SsvRrwQ [~user@24.68.50.61] has joined #lisp 03:37:16 try setting the environment variables CPATH=/usr/include and LIBRARY_PATH=/usr/lib 03:39:28 Hm. New to IRC, too. Sorry if I'm not following social protocol. Just wanted a tip on what continuation libraries to check out. Maybe I'll just start monkeying around with stuff. 03:40:00 drewna: you have a waaay too short timeout :) 03:40:14 drewna: protip - it can take *days* for someone to answer 03:40:46 Aha! I see. Thank you! 03:40:56 Bacteria [~Bacteria@115-64-180-132.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 03:41:18 drewna: I think cl-cont is the one people use, but I haven't personally 03:41:24 p_l|backup Give me 5 and I'll check it. Trying to see what happens when I strip common lisp controller from the system. Some message board post had a related issue. 03:41:53 Thank you, Bike! I'll check out cl-cont. 03:41:55 madalu [~user@unaffiliated/madalu] has joined #lisp 03:42:17 drewna: as for continuation libraries... not sure. There's arnesi and cl-cont, but I don't know much about differences, though I heard opinions that arnesi's was better, but cl-cont is more common (cl-cont is also used by weblocks, btw) 03:42:58 Great! Thanks for the tips! 03:43:28 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:48:06 vlion: and what's the actual error? 03:48:21 chimay [~chimay@unaffiliated/chimay] has joined #lisp 03:48:46 pkhuong: Not sure where to find it- is it on std out? 03:48:55 yes. 03:49:29 there's actually a build log for each contrib, but I never remember where that file is. 03:50:08 What thing should I study besides "practical common lisp"? 03:50:27 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 03:50:35 the hyperspec :3 03:51:44 http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Front/index.htm? 03:53:29 that's the one; though most have it viewable in some way through emacs. you can make your own texinfo version if you want or lookup symbols in emacs which are displayed in the browser. you probably want a local copy 03:54:29 http://users-phys.au.dk/harder/dpans.html that's what I used for the texinfo version 03:54:52 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 03:56:07 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:56:14 Thank you jji :) 03:56:33 pkhuong: I updates it with the error. I'm headin out - 12 hrs at the office is enough. :) 03:56:33 no problem 03:56:42 deadghost [~deadghost@71-84-68-72.dhcp.rvsd.ca.charter.com] has joined #lisp 03:57:09 college time! 03:57:29 -!- NikolaiDante [~nikolaida@unaffiliated/knighterrant] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 03:57:35 -!- cataska [~cataska@210.64.6.233] has quit [Quit: leaving] 03:58:52 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@adsl-75-37-19-235.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 03:59:13 kpreid [~kpreid@adsl-75-37-19-235.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:00:32 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 04:04:40 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:05:00 -!- antonv [5d7d31f9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.49.249] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:07:52 -!- vlion [~vlion@66-87-74-85.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi] 04:09:09 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 04:09:57 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[~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:09:58 kushal [kdas@nat/redhat/x-gxzlvywjcdurebaa] has joined #lisp 05:09:59 -!- kushal [kdas@nat/redhat/x-gxzlvywjcdurebaa] has quit [Changing host] 05:09:59 kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 05:10:49 -!- sabalaba1 [~Adium@c-67-180-195-131.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:11:12 justinmcp [~justinmcp@ppp118-208-147-102.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 05:11:29 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 05:12:51 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@1.150.233.160] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:13:23 eh, i can figure out ways to do this, but is there a pretty way: go from #P"/home/robot-beethoven/file.type" to #P"/home/robot-beethoven/file" 05:15:00 -!- chimay [~chimay@unaffiliated/chimay] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.9-rc1] 05:15:31 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Disconnected by services] 05:16:10 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 05:17:31 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:18:30 -!- macrobat [~fuzzyglee@h-17-133.a328.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8] 05:18:55 pavelpenev [~quassel@85-130-11-8.2073813645.shumen.cablebg.net] has joined #lisp 05:18:58 hmmm... my new best is: (make-pathname :type nil :defaults robot-beethoven\'s-path) 05:19:27 *|3b|* would try enough-namestring, doesn't seem to be working though 05:19:49 <|3b|> actually make-pathname sounds reasonable too 05:21:58 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 05:24:13 -!- paroneayea [~user@fsf/member/paroneayea] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:28:35 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:30:30 DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@1.145.6.109] has joined #lisp 05:30:34 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@1.145.6.109] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:33:18 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has 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240 seconds] 08:27:36 -!- Bike [~Glossina@67-5-235-160.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: asleep] 08:31:44 Is there any fundamental difference between (funcall (function foo) ) or (funcall (symbol-function 'foo) )? Especially in flet/labels environments? 08:32:08 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 08:32:40 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 08:33:27 add^_ [~add^_@m90-130-63-206.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 08:35:01 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Excess Flood] 08:35:44 hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has joined #lisp 08:35:44 -!- hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has quit [Changing host] 08:35:44 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 08:37:12 antoszka: if you shadow a function defined with defun with one defined by flet they have different behavior. symbol-function gets you the function in the function slot of the symbol, FUNCTION gives you the current binding. 08:37:14 symbol-function will always refer to the global definition 08:37:35 That's what I suspected, thx. 08:39:59 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 08:44:05 hkBst_ [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has joined 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has joined #lisp 09:47:36 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.226] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 09:51:14 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:59:01 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 09:59:22 agumonkey [~agu@235.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 10:03:35 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:04:26 loke_erc [~user@c-1756e555.012-14-67626717.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 10:07:36 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 10:08:26 -!- loke_erc [~user@c-1756e555.012-14-67626717.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:11:15 lammb [~user@host86-147-195-183.range86-147.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 10:11:54 add^_ [~add^_@m90-130-63-206.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 10:13:13 Is there a standard function computing the max of a sequence? In particular, a max that takes at least a :key? Or must I write my own? 10:14:46 -!- chimay [~chimay@unaffiliated/chimay] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:15:05 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:15:32 lammb, to find the max of a sequence, you can do (reduce #'max seq) 10:15:36 chimay [~chimay@unaffiliated/chimay] has joined #lisp 10:15:44 As for :KEY argument, depends on how you want the key to interact 10:16:01 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-220-76.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:16:34 Quadrescence: MAX is defined only for type REAL, right? I have a sequnce containing reals and symbols, with a defined ordering (poker ranks) 10:16:59 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-220-76.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 10:17:12 lammb, that is correct. You can do it the slightly less optimal way and call SORT with your own predicate 10:17:20 and pick off the first item 10:17:34 zolk3ri [~zolk3ri@catv-89-132-196-182.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 10:17:44 -!- qptain_Nemo [~qN@81-235-52-30-no79.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:18:01 Quadrescence: yeah, that's what I'm currently doing. Thought I'd ask for other possibilities. :-) 10:18:27 I can't think of another standard way of doing it with your own defined predicate & your own key. 10:18:51 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:21:36 lammb: (reduce 'max-card sequence) 10:21:58 There's no need to sort. 10:22:03 mathrick [~mathrick@188.181.106.202] has joined #lisp 10:22:24 pjb, he asked for a KEY argument too, similar to SORT 10:22:24 pjb: Hehe, of course! Thanks :-) 10:22:30 And no, indeed, there's no standard functions to deal with cards. 10:22:41 Sorry Quadrescence, I was being too specific. 10:22:46 oh okay 10:23:20 lammb: consider encoding facecards as integers 11, 12, ... 10:23:43 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 10:24:11 or going thru a function card-value: (reduce 'max seq :key 'card-value). 10:24:56 -!- hkBst_ [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:24:58 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ho1.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:25:06 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 10:25:10 hkBst_ [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 10:25:16 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 10:25:28 lammb` [~user@host86-147-195-183.range86-147.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 10:26:56 -!- lammb [~user@host86-147-195-183.range86-147.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:27:21 -!- lammb` [~user@host86-147-195-183.range86-147.btcentralplus.com] has left #lisp 10:28:06 or consider writing card he is gone 10:28:50 -!- justinmcp [~justinmcp@ppp118-208-147-102.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:29:26 justinmcp [~justinmcp@ppp118-208-147-102.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 10:29:36 hkBst__ [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has joined #lisp 10:29:45 -!- hkBst__ is now known as hkBst 10:29:55 -!- hkBst_ [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 10:30:03 I have a cool (not-cool) MAXARG function I wrote somewhere. 10:31:28 http://codepad.org/0RyFAlUf 10:31:37 (not the most efficient but Good Enough) 10:32:37 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:33:41 KingsKnighted [~quassel@c-174-52-149-13.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:33:52 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 10:37:13 -!- zolk3ri 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[~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 14:05:42 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:06:42 agumonkey [~agu@235.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 14:07:59 season [~user@124.160.188.129] has joined #lisp 14:08:03 -!- bitonic` [~user@027cae25.bb.sky.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:08:21 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 14:10:18 any of you guys use cl-json 14:10:24 im having an issue with it 14:11:29 -!- agumonkey [~agu@235.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 14:11:34 use yason or jsown 14:11:41 fix'd 14:13:16 exit 14:13:21 exit 14:13:37 ehh the issue was format, not cl-json 14:13:39 funny_ [~funny@221.10.117.124] has joined #lisp 14:13:59 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 14:14:25 is there a way to use multiple-value-bind on an array? 14:14:59 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-132-113.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:15:03 PuffTheMagic: no. 14:16:13 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:16:28 thats a bummer 14:17:09 I swtiched from cl-json to st-json 14:17:11 much better 14:18:42 agumonkey [~agu@235.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 14:18:52 well i dont think its gonna make anything easier for me right now 14:18:56 -!- acieroid` is now known as acieroid 14:19:07 PuffTheMagic: why? Exactly what is your issue? 14:19:14 Not sure if what I'm doing here is out-right condemned, or whether FiveAM is being a bit naughty: http://pastebin.com/Lq8f5Tty -- any elaboration would be much appreciated. 14:19:36 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 14:19:49 loke: i dont really have an issue, just more work since i cant use multiple-value-bind on an array 14:20:14 i have a json-string that is actually an array with 3 elements 14:20:24 eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 14:20:27 PuffTheMagic: well building it should be a very trivial macro. Do you have an example of what it is you want? 14:20:30 and i was hoping i could use multiple-value-bine when i decode it 14:20:35 lammb: you deserve what you get. 14:20:51 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-132-113.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:20:59 dnolen [~user@cpe-69-203-204-197.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:21:02 loke: there is really no issue here besides the fact taht the first thing i tried didnt work, thats all 14:21:03 Xach, fair enough, thanks for the confirmation. 14:21:32 lammb: redo your repl test with the *same* constant list used in each invocation 14:22:38 fantazo [~fantazo@91-119-209-176.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 14:22:45 Vivitron, yeah, I noticed that. I was thinking the test-suite should replicate the results I got at the REPL. 14:22:53 -!- eMBee [~eMBee@foresight/developer/pike/programmer] has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:23:19 nope. 14:23:21 lammb: SORT is destructive. Personally, I think think SORT should be called SORTF, but things are the way they are 14:23:45 lammb: do you use sbcl? 14:23:53 Xach, yep. 14:24:00 -!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 14:24:17 stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-234-226.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 14:24:31 lammb: I should have said literal instead of constant iirc, but this is created at read-time, and likely you are only reading the test definition once:) 14:24:32 lammb: in some circumstances it will loudly complain about using sort on constant data 14:24:58 Xach: from the REPL it won't. 14:24:59 loke: I think nsort would be more appropriate than sortf 14:25:06 Xach, it does when I compile the file (as opposed to evaluting it, not sure if that's right) 14:25:06 Vivitron: fair enough 14:25:23 -!- hkBst_ [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:25:36 teggi [~teggi@113.172.60.174] has joined #lisp 14:25:43 I was using the REPL and getting myself very confused until I compiled the and realised the mistake I was making. 14:26:00 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:26:25 Vivitron, Ah, I think I see what's happened now. :) 14:26:27 loke: (defun foo () (sort '(2 4 3 1) #'>)) in the repl will. 14:26:41 justicefries [~justicefr@c-67-162-133-53.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:27:07 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@37.244.181.18] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:27:28 -!- longlene [~loong0@112.2.228.217] has left #lisp 14:27:31 rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has joined #lisp 14:27:48 -!- season [~user@124.160.188.129] has left #lisp 14:28:31 Xach: ah, nice 14:29:03 does it detect more complex cases? I doubt calling SORT on a constant like that is very common 14:30:01 somewhat 14:30:32 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 14:31:06 -!- rjmt [~uid1@46-65-28-90.zone16.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 14:31:15 hkBst__ [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has joined #lisp 14:32:36 rjmt [~uid1@46-65-28-90.zone16.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 14:33:08 schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-025-184.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 14:36:35 eMBee [~eMBee@foresight/developer/pike/programmer] has joined #lisp 14:38:51 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 14:39:37 Kryztof [~user@81.174.155.115] has joined #lisp 14:39:53 lammb: it is condemned here: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/03_ga.htm 14:42:08 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 14:43:03 steffi_s [~marioooh@x-132-204-243-254.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 14:45:33 loke: (define-modify-macro sortf (order &rest rest) sort "Sorts the sequence at SEQUENCE-PLACE.") 14:45:52 -!- ludston [~patience@CPE-121-218-240-135.lnse4.cht.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:46:22 sabalaba [~Adium@c-67-180-195-131.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:46:36 Somebody should gather a library of define-modify-macro for all pertinent functions in CL 14:46:37 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:47:38 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 14:47:53 -!- justicefries [~justicefr@c-67-162-133-53.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 14:49:24 -!- PECCU [~peccu@KD106179020073.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:49:26 -!- rjmt [~uid1@46-65-28-90.zone16.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 14:50:21 PECCU [~peccu@KD106179020073.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 14:50:30 YES 14:50:35 someone did, i think? 14:50:57 rjmt [~uid1@46-65-28-90.zone16.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 14:51:06 rotiJohn [~qoobloo@cm14.iota89.maxonline.com.sg] has joined #lisp 14:53:40 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 14:55:24 Xach: alexandria has a lot of them. Maybe it's worth adding the rest. 14:56:52 pjb: for SORTF, maybe it's worth having &key copyp, as well? 14:57:31 -!- PECCU [~peccu@KD106179020073.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:58:17 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 14:58:49 PECCU [~peccu@KD106179020073.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 14:59:03 _d3f [~d3f@79.172.193.130] has joined #lisp 14:59:27 -!- rjmt [~uid1@46-65-28-90.zone16.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 14:59:37 zeissoctopus [~zeissocto@183178133120.ctinets.com] has joined #lisp 15:02:44 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:03:01 postfuturist [~sgoss@chirashi.kavi.com] has joined #lisp 15:03:09 francisl [~flavoie@199.84.164.114] has joined #lisp 15:03:15 rjmt [~uid1@46.65.28.90] has joined #lisp 15:03:31 -!- francisl [~flavoie@199.84.164.114] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:03:37 francisl_ [~flavoie@199.84.164.114] has joined #lisp 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[~fogus@burke-matrex.d-a-s.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:48:32 didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has joined #lisp 15:50:05 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 15:51:17 Every time I read an article about syntax nightmare on a language I remember why I love sexps. 15:51:29 deadghost [~deadghost@71-84-68-72.dhcp.rvsd.ca.charter.com] has joined #lisp 15:52:02 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 15:53:30 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-132-113.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:55:25 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 15:55:55 didi: (let (#'42) (+ . #'5)) (from http://lisptips.com) 15:56:36 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 15:57:01 sykopomp: I know... 15:57:08 Still. 15:58:02 Orpheus [~user1@pool-96-249-152-140.hrbgpa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:59:00 ok i got slime and emacs setup....at least i think so 15:59:22 Orpheus: You gonna have an awesome time. 15:59:39 lisp seems like such a cool language im sure i will 16:01:28 -!- hkBst__ [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 16:01:43 Orpheus: do you have quicklisp, too? 16:02:15 im not sure 16:02:48 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 16:03:29 -!- NikolaiDante [~nikolaida@unaffiliated/knighterrant] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 16:03:36 quick lisp is pretty much ruby gems right? 16:06:07 Orpheus: I don't know what are ruby gems, but it fetches packages from elsewhere so you can use them. 16:06:48 Orpheus: Not just fetch, but do the whole work so you can use them from the REPL. 16:06:52 yep, `gem install foo` is pretty close to (ql:quickload foo), but the latter actually makes it available immediately 16:06:56 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 16:07:32 something like 'require' in Ruby, if my memory serves 16:07:49 cool 16:08:02 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.35.111] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:09:34 mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.35.111] has joined #lisp 16:09:38 plo is down? 16:10:02 It was down yesterday, too. 16:10:57 :( 16:11:52 ^pnpuff [~pnpuff@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 16:14:10 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 16:14:46 -!- AlbireoX [~AlbireoX@76.78.168.33] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:16:06 ok got it installed 16:16:29 -!- ace4016 [~ace4016@cpe-024-074-197-085.ec.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:17:44 -!- punee [~punee@213-245-106-105.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:17:44 ferada [~ferada@dslb-088-069-036-011.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 16:17:49 Orpheus: Time to hack and be merry. 16:17:55 punee [~punee@213-245-106-105.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 16:17:59 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8] 16:18:02 indeed 16:18:16 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 16:18:21 what books would you suggest to read? i already have land of lisp 16:18:40 PCL 16:18:49 Orpheus: http://gigamonkeys.com/book/ 16:19:28 incf didi 16:20:30 -!- ^pnpuff [~pnpuff@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has left #lisp 16:21:28 -!- Bacteria [~Bacteria@115-64-180-132.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Quit: Bacteria] 16:21:30 i think i may have ordered that from my school 16:22:10 Orpheus: you can already start reading it free online! 16:22:25 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-132-113.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:23:12 -!- yrk [~user@pdpc/supporter/student/yrk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:23:24 yrk [~user@c-50-133-134-220.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:23:28 -!- yrk [~user@c-50-133-134-220.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 16:23:28 yrk [~user@pdpc/supporter/student/yrk] has joined #lisp 16:23:49 -!- cryptic is now known as cryptic_esq 16:24:46 caoliver [~chatzilla@24-236-215-112.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has joined #lisp 16:24:48 m7w [~chatzilla@178.172.228.137] has joined #lisp 16:24:54 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 16:25:25 At the moment I'm looking at the SBCL/CLISP glue library for lispbuilder-sdl's audio. 16:25:52 It seems to produce very choppy audio. 16:26:12 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-132-113.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:26:22 madnificent: cool 16:27:03 It appears to manage a single buffer with a semaphore. I'm wondering if double buffering or a queue of buffers if that's insufficient would help. 16:28:14 Demosthenes [~demo@mc00536d0.tmodns.net] has joined #lisp 16:28:17 As it stands, the SDL thread appears to play a sample, and then wait for lisp to fill it, so there are context switches between samples played. 16:28:41 fill it ::= fill the sample output buffer. 16:29:02 Thoughts? 16:30:11 caoliver: Does it use CFFI? I did some experiments that pointed in the direction that switching back and forth to foreign calls might be expensive. Nothing conclusive, though. 16:30:23 -!- gko [~user@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:30:43 Yes it does. But that's also the case with CCL, and the sound isn't choppy there. 16:30:45 -!- ivan4th [~ivan4th@smtp.igrade.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:30:49 -!- cryptic_esq is now known as cryptic 16:30:59 I see. 16:31:10 sykopomp: this is just an argument against (a lot of) reader macros, notably #". 16:31:11 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:31:31 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:31:42 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 16:31:45 Still, my idea is the get an audio buffer filled somewhat ahead of the need for it. 16:32:04 Argh! s/is the/is to/ 16:32:51 -!- Euthy [~euthy@unaffiliated/euthydemus] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:33:04 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.35.111] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:33:12 AlbireoX [~AlbireoX@76.78.168.33] has joined #lisp 16:34:20 i wish i learned about lisp sooner 16:34:40 still plenty of time left in the day 16:35:39 mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.35.111] has joined #lisp 16:35:51 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 16:36:00 indeed 16:36:20 heh i just read your quote on the pcl site 16:36:33 -!- chawco [~craig@vpn.polarmobile.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 16:37:22 Bike [~Glossina@67-5-235-160.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 16:38:45 mon_key [~user@unaffiliated/monkey/x-267253] has joined #lisp 16:38:53 Orpheus: I discovered scheme(a lisp dialect) a year in my first serious attempt to learn to program. I cursed myself for not learning it sooner :) 16:39:47 i have heard of scheme before but never looked into it 16:40:16 Orpheus: for most purposes Common lisp is better. 16:40:48 AlbireoX`Laptop [~AlbireoX@76.78.168.33] has joined #lisp 16:40:50 but it served well as a gateway drug :) 16:40:50 land of lisp says its more elegant but not as powerful as common lisp 16:41:00 never tried it so idk how accurate that is 16:41:01 Hello Lispers! 16:41:11 -!- AlbireoX [~AlbireoX@76.78.168.33] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:41:40 Orpheus: elegance is in the eye of the beholder. My personal opinion is that common lisp is more elegant. Just worry about one lisp dialect for now :) 16:41:48 yeah 16:41:53 im sticking to common lisp 16:42:24 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:43:13 -!- uselpa [~uselpa@83.99.17.42] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:44:01 -!- justicefries [~justicefr@50-76-131-66-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 16:46:15 -!- resharpersux [9902f71f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.153.2.247.31] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:46:36 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 16:47:36 -!- PECCU [~peccu@KD106179020073.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:50:43 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:51:00 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has quit [Quit: Close the world, Open the nExt] 16:55:17 -!- rdd [~rdd@c83-250-157-60.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Quit: Coyote finally caught me] 16:55:19 -!- Praise [~Fat@unaffiliated/praise] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 16:56:14 justicefries [~justicefr@50-76-131-66-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 16:56:27 killerboy [~mateusz@217.17.38.43] has joined #lisp 16:56:39 *cough* proper tail calls *cough* 16:56:51 Praise [~Fat@unaffiliated/praise] has joined #lisp 16:57:23 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 16:57:40 rdd [~rdd@c83-250-157-60.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 16:58:07 sabalaba1 [~Adium@c-67-180-195-131.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:00:17 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has left #lisp 17:00:52 cltl3 will mandate tail call optimization 17:00:56 peterhil` [~peterhil@gatekeeper.brainalliance.com] has joined #lisp 17:00:58 [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has joined #lisp 17:01:40 -!- sabalaba [~Adium@c-67-180-195-131.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:01:40 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:01:52 -!- stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-234-226.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:02:01 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:02:09 I think Rainer was saying that played some havoc with specials. 17:02:22 Quadrescence: I'm curious to know why, and what advantage having it mandated will bring? 17:02:40 Shutting up Schemers like me. 17:02:41 PECCU [~peccu@KD106179020073.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 17:02:45 ;) 17:03:07 as long as CLTL3 also mandates that you can -disable- TCO :) 17:03:14 chawco [~craig@vpn.polarmobile.com] has joined #lisp 17:03:21 shutting up schemers is always fun, but never productive. :) 17:03:23 pavelpenev, recursive code can be guaranteed to not suck? deep tail calls, such as in GUI code with callbacks and friends, wont blow the stack? 17:03:47 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:03:57 Quadrescence: I know the value of tail calls, but why mandate it? 17:04:05 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-66-73-241.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 17:04:22 ^pnpuff [~pnpuff@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 17:04:27 pavelpenev, so you can more predictably measure memory complexity of algorithms 17:04:35 -!- ^pnpuff [~pnpuff@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has left #lisp 17:04:38 what is the problem with the current situation that you are trying to solve. 17:04:41 pavelpenev: portability? 17:04:42 and so libraries like my RECUR work as intended in a portable fashion 17:04:48 ^pnpuff [~pnpuff@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 17:04:56 I think somebody mentioned a tail-call special form as a sort of compromise. 17:04:56 ah, ok. 17:04:59 I think all the lisp implementations I use use TCO, so it's not like I worry about it. :) 17:05:06 Quadrescence: what implementation do you use that doesn't do TCO? 17:05:11 GCL? 17:05:13 abcl, probably? 17:05:19 sykopomp, don't a lot of implementations not do TCO at low SPEED 17:05:27 or debug > speed or something 17:05:48 so declare speed > debug in your recur? 17:05:49 fix your optimization settings -> no RECUR necessary in practice 17:06:01 I guess a tail-call declaration might be better 17:06:07 I guess it is actually useful for debugging to be able to opt out of tco . 17:06:13 correct 17:06:37 There's a funny Java thing online that makes fun of that argument. 17:06:49 Showing 40 pages of stack trace calling the same function 17:07:31 but of course, mandating tail calls always would prevent (or at least make it harder for) a lisp implementation targeting an architecture like the jvm... 17:07:50 Quadrescence: java is a DSL for turning XML into stack traces, so it is not a good refutation :) 17:07:58 ;) 17:08:35 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 17:08:54 i lol'd 17:09:14 -!- ^pnpuff [~pnpuff@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has left #lisp 17:09:43 would someone shhot larry e. so we can forget about java? 17:09:55 stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-234-226.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 17:10:01 shoot even 17:14:47 -!- keltvek [~keltvek@89-212-113-105.static.t-2.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:15:01 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:15:34 -!- sawjig [~sawjig@gateway/tor-sasl/sawjig] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:15:55 keltvek [~keltvek@89-212-113-105.static.t-2.net] has joined #lisp 17:17:43 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 17:18:49 sawjig [~sawjig@gateway/tor-sasl/sawjig] has joined #lisp 17:19:35 -!- didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:20:25 -!- ignas [~ignas@office.pov.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 17:22:06 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:24:52 Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable209.138-58-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 17:27:02 I just found an amusing question regarding setf expansion of setf functions and macros: https://twitter.com/HexstreamSoft/status/248110028991639552 (The spec and The Right Thing give different answers, IMHO, though it rests to be seen if this Actually Matters(tm)) 17:27:23 Xach: You were working on a CL quiz at some point I think? What became of it? 17:28:11 BTW, when would I use (defun (setf ) ), when (defsetf ) and when (define-setf-expander )? I'm somewhat buffled by the choice. 17:29:28 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 17:29:31 -!- zbigniew [~zb@2600:3c02:e000:3::8] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:29:48 antoszka: When defun (setf ...) is enough. 17:30:18 Hexstream: You mean, unless defun setf  is enough I'd not be using the other two, right? 17:30:19 DEFSETF and DEFINE-SETF-EXPANDER are much more powerful and complex than a simple SETF function. 17:30:29 ok. 17:30:42 Hexstream: is it T, NIL? 17:30:43 -!- sshirokov [sshirokov@2600:3c02::f03c:91ff:fe93:e02d] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:30:53 Is there some prose (besides CLHS) where I could read on real-life uses of the two? Has PAIP got something? 17:31:39 Bike: If my reading of the spec is correct, the "right" answer is T, NIL. But "the right thing" would suggest NIL, T, possibly. 17:31:41 -!- derrida [~derrida-f@unaffiliated/deleuze] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:31:46 -!- sbryant [freenode@2600:3c02::f03c:91ff:fe93:e02d] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:32:13 Hexstream: really? I think of macros as being expanded first. 17:32:13 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:32:25 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ho1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 17:32:31 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:32:33 Bike: It's what the spec says. 17:33:08 macrobat [~fuzzyglee@h-17-133.a328.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 17:33:12 hello Hexstream 17:33:20 Quadrescence: Hello. 17:33:43 antoszka: PAIP has examples of defsetf and one of define-setf-method. 17:33:59 Bike: According to intuitive lexical scope, and the fact that macros and functions are in the same namespace, arguably the inner setf function should shadow the outer macro definition... 17:34:03 daimrod: Thx. 17:34:05 Hexstream: I mean, it makes sense to me that macros before setf expansions is "the right thing". 17:34:34 Hexstream: since the expansion there is a function, not a real macro, anyway 17:35:03 didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has joined #lisp 17:35:51 Bike: Not sure what you mean. 17:36:23 "macros before setf expansions"?... 17:36:37 -!- redline6561 [~redline65@li69-162.members.linode.com] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in] 17:37:35 Quadrescence: That's interesting about GUIs. Do you mean a GUI program where when you push a button a callback is called and by the end of it, it calls the main loop function? 17:37:50 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:38:24 didi, something like that 17:38:36 Hexstream: like, (setf test) is a function, not a macro. it should be called only if the setf expands into (funcall #'(setf foo) ...), which it doesn't because the macro is expanded first. 17:38:37 callbacks that don't "return" 17:38:52 Continuation-passing callbacks? 17:38:54 Quadrescence: I'm not familiar with this design. 17:38:59 Seems cool. 17:39:35 fold [~fold@66-169-204-12.dhcp.ftwo.tx.charter.com] has joined #lisp 17:40:30 Bike: Looks like something made of continuations indeed. 17:41:16 Bike, yes 17:41:28 Bike: Yes, that's how the spec says things work, but it would have been easy to say (and implement) that local SETF functions pass information through the lexical environment such that within its scope SETF expansions give priority to that setf function unless further shadowed. 17:41:29 we employ that style a lot in our code base at work, just because it's so flexible 17:41:42 Maybe something like a Racket's web application. 17:42:10 Hexstream: Any compound form for which the operator has a setf expander defined can be used as a place. The operator must refer to the global function definition, rather than a locally defined function or macro. 17:42:12 Quadrescence: Do you know a released GUI that uses it? 17:42:20 Bike: Establishing a local SETF function would effectively create a local setf-expander (which does have priority over macros). (It's not possible to declare local setf-expanders portably.) 17:42:28 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 17:42:32 Hexstream: you can't write (flet (((setf test) )) ). 17:42:46 pjb: What? You can. 17:42:51 didi, not sure, I don't usually read other people's GUI code 17:42:56 I see. 17:43:11 Hexstream: flet binds the function at run-time. setf expands at macroexpansion time, long before. 17:43:13 Quadrescence: yeah, mandated tail calls would be useful for CPS. 17:43:13 The "Any compound form for which the operator has a setf expander defined can be used as a place. The operator must refer to the global function definition, rather than a locally defined function or macro." passage would be amended in consequence. 17:43:40 Quadrescence: But you use it for a GUI, right? 17:44:17 sbryant [freenode@2600:3c02::f03c:91ff:fe93:e02d] has joined #lisp 17:44:21 redline6561 [~redline65@li69-162.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 17:44:30 pjb: Like I said, there's nothing that would prevent a local SETF function from effectively establishing a local setf-expander. 17:44:45 Along with the normal setf-function. 17:44:53 derrida [~derrida-f@www.informalcode.com] has joined #lisp 17:44:53 -!- derrida [~derrida-f@www.informalcode.com] has quit [Changing host] 17:44:53 derrida [~derrida-f@unaffiliated/deleuze] has joined #lisp 17:45:04 sshirokov [sshirokov@2600:3c02::f03c:91ff:fe93:e02d] has joined #lisp 17:45:10 didi, for a lot of things yes 17:45:35 pjb: What makes you think you can't write (flet (((setf test) )) )? Because you can... 17:46:22 zbigniew [~zb@2600:3c02:e000:3::8] has joined #lisp 17:46:41 Though the spec is maybe not explicit enough about this. CLHS FLET says that a "function name" is required. Glossary says: "function name n. 1. (in an environment) A symbol or a list (setf symbol) that is the name of a function in that environment. 2. A symbol or a list (setf symbol)." 17:46:52 -!- bitonic [~user@027cae25.bb.sky.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:47:52 (01:43:11 PM) pjb: Hexstream: flet binds the function at run-time. setf expands at macroexpansion time, long before. <-- flet binds the function at run-time, perhaps, but it has full knowledge of the function's existence and its name at compile-time... 17:48:38 It's not good enough. setf CALLS the (setf function). 17:49:50 Well, yes, you can write (flet (((setf test) )) ), but you cannot use that setf function in a setf form in the flet body. 17:50:07 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:50:11 You can use (function (setf test)) to get that function and use it explicitely. 17:50:16 (funcall (setf test)) would be ok. 17:50:22 Uh. 17:50:25 (funcall (function (setf test))) I mean. 17:50:35 No, you can't do that. 17:50:44 I think you're really confused about local setf functions. 17:51:10 (let ((x nil)) (flet (((setf test) (new) (setf x new))) (funcall (function (setf test)) 42)) x) => 42 17:51:13 Oh wait, you can. 17:52:21 Hexstream: rethinking it, I think local setf expansions would make sense, but as a macroexpansion-time thing rather than functions 17:52:25 Notice the quote above. Came from 5.1.2.6 Setf Expansions and Places. Even if you used setf in an eval or macroexpand (ie. at run-time), setf would still have to use a global (setf test) and not the local one. 17:52:29 antonv [5d7d31f9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.49.249] has joined #lisp 17:52:30 Hum. I think I read a SBCL bug report that said #'(setf test) wasn't valid and I trusted it... 17:52:58 pjb, i'm sorry but in CLTL3 the use of (FUNCTION F) will be banned and you must use #'F 17:53:05 at least in IRC conversations 17:53:11 Quadrescence: I vetoe that decision. 17:53:22 pjb: Et avec quelle armée? 17:53:31 yates [~user@nc-71-54-138-0.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 17:53:46 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 17:53:53 lol 17:54:05 would it be reasonable to call a "form" an executable (evaluatable) s-expression? 17:54:06 oh my cltl3 wars has begun 17:54:11 I've got France behind me: we have nuclear weapons! :-) 17:54:30 didn't you all see that CL tip? (let (#'42) (+ . #'5)) is perfectly sensible 17:54:34 yates: more precisely: a sexp that's intended to be evaluated (one way or another). 17:54:38 Bike: sure. 17:55:04 yates: In (my-interpreter '(whatever you want)) (whatever you want) is a form. It may not be a CL form. 17:55:17 yates: A CL form would be intended to be passed to CL:EVAL. 17:55:36 Notice that CL:EVAL accepts anything and most often has a specified behavior. Including signaling an error. 17:56:47 (eval '(whatever you want)) signals a "Unbound variable: you" or a "Undefined function whatever called with arguments (you want)." error. 17:56:47 pjb: what purpose would it serve for (whatever you want) to be something other than a CL form? 17:56:53 wg1024 [~Adium@dslb-084-058-049-184.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 17:56:57 yates: to get an error. 17:57:02 ! 17:57:14 (handler-case (eval '(whatver you want)) (error () (print 'got-it))) 17:57:25 so we write programs that PURPOSELY generate an error?!? 17:57:33 In CL, we can. 17:57:37 why? 17:57:44 why would we WANT an error? 17:57:47 yakov [~yakov@spb.nexenta.com] has joined #lisp 17:57:55 Notice that the condition system is more general than just error handling. It is assumed that it's rather efficient. It can be abused. 17:58:21 do we have proper haXe alternative targeting ActionScript 3? :-) 17:58:24 It is used for warning, and other intra-program signals. 17:58:25 eldariof [~CLD@pppoe-204-244-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has joined #lisp 17:58:39 why would you NOT want an error? Crash early to prevent bad data propagation! 17:59:01 sykopomp: if you're that paranoid, consider suicide 17:59:28 Good argument for lisp against C or C++. 17:59:39 yates: It is not paranoia if they are really out to get you :) 17:59:40 uh, signalling an error rather than continuing with wrong information is pretty usual, yates. 17:59:44 (well, C++ has exceptions, but you can't catch null pointer derefenced exceptions in C++, or can you? 18:00:01 And C++ exceptions are supposed to be very slow. 18:00:03 Bike: uh, uhm, er. 18:00:07 "(01:52:24 PM) pjb: Notice the quote above. Came from 5.1.2.6 Setf Expansions and Places. Even if you used setf in an eval or macroexpand (ie. at run-time), setf would still have to use a global (setf test) and not the local one." <-- CLHS 5.1.2.6 talks about setf expanders, which is not at all the same as setf functions. 18:00:14 But then, it's not surprizing, only slow functions are written in C++. 18:00:59 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:01:08 yates: do you want read on an empty string to just keep going into random memory instead of signalling EOF? 18:01:10 pjb: You want to look at CLHS 5.1.2.9 18:01:17 Hexstream: oops, you're right. 18:01:33 Bike: i think we have a failure to communicate 18:01:42 quite possible. 18:01:45 Yes. For any other compound form for which the operator is a symbol f, the setf form expands into a call to the function named (setf f). The first argument in the newly constructed function form is newvalue and the remaining arguments are the remaining elements of place. This expansion occurs regardless of whether f or (setf f) is defined as a function locally, globally, or not at all. 18:02:28 while i absolutely can see the utility in a system that catches and reports error, why would you EVER want to purposely write code that generate them? 18:03:08 the empty string example: do the check in your function before using it. 18:03:30 What's the point of that when you could just set up a handler? 18:03:42 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 18:04:02 Bike: well, that IS taking precautions to handle it, so i guess that's ok 18:04:03 I can't find if it's specified in which order it's tested, but it seems logical that it's in the order of those subsections, so that (setf test) is called only if there's no macro named test, therefore your code is conforming and should return T,NIL, IMO. 18:04:18 -!- justicefries [~justicefr@50-76-131-66-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:04:31 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 18:04:33 justicefries [~justicefr@50-76-131-66-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 18:04:42 Why would someone write (when t) rather than ? 18:04:43 yates: then I don't understand. what do you want (eval invalid-form) to do? 18:04:47 pjb: Yes, that's what I thought the spec meant from the start. What I'm saying is that there's a "hole" in the spec, arguably. 18:04:51 yates: there's no fundamental difference between block/return-from, catch/throw, and handler-case/signal or handler-bind/signal. 18:05:06 caoliver: when you want to return t rather than just a generalized boolean? 18:05:22 yates: you can implement one of block/return-from, catch/throw, or handler-bind/signal in term of an other. 18:05:25 -!- antonv [5d7d31f9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.49.249] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:05:39 caoliver: To convert a generalized-boolean to a boolean? 18:05:53 In this case the predicate is (= foo bar) though, so the value should be t/nil anyhow. 18:05:54 Bike: one could argue that if you've set up a handler to deal with it, then it's not an error but expected/programmed behavior 18:05:56 I encoutered a situation where neither block or catch was adequat, and where I used a handler-case/signal. 18:05:57 define error! 18:06:11 subclass of CL:ERROR. 18:06:25 yates: a CL error, of course. I don't want undefined behavior, which is what you seem to be thinking of. 18:06:26 Those are _conditions_. We signal conditions. 18:06:46 perhaps 18:06:48 Quadrescence: Hey. Your idea about "continuation-passing callbacks" is making my mind boil. I think it might be possible to do such thing with GTK. IIRC you can make single calls to the main loop instead of "entering it". I have to think about it harder though. 18:06:58 Some conditions are subclass of WARNING, some other of ERROR. They are handled specifically by the condtion system, but not specially: it's a generic mechanism. 18:07:05 didi, :) 18:07:11 pjb: ok 18:07:21 yates: "eval signals an error on an invalid form" is a defined behavior that can be dealt with. "eval continues blindly and ends up crashing" is undefined, and probably bad. 18:07:32 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ho1.unidsl.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:07:37 yates: have a look at http://www.nhplace.com/kent/Papers/Condition-Handling-2001.html 18:08:29 pjb, I love that link 18:08:35 didi: do you know much about CPS? It's a pretty useful style sometimes 18:08:41 "(02:05:52 PM) caoliver: In this case the predicate is (= foo bar) though, so the value should be t/nil anyhow." <-- Not necessarily, = returns a generalized-boolean, not a boolean. 18:08:59 yates: notice that I said that eval "most often has a specified behavior". Some implementations can produce crashes or other undefined behavior (eg. with optimize safety 0 and non-conforming code). 18:09:19 Bike: I know it in the Scheme sense, but never really use it or thought about it in a practical way. 18:09:23 anyway, the question was prompted by the use of the word "form" in http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/syntax-and-semantics.html and my attempt to understand it 18:09:35 I don't think there's any function in CL that's specified as always returning a boolean... 18:10:07 yates: So, one could disqualify a non-conforming form as non valid form. But CL is not that strict: it allows you to write non-conforming programs, running nicely only on some specific implementations. 18:10:45 Hexstream: Assuming the std =, give me an example of two = things where the return value of the predicate is not t. 18:10:55 -!- teggi [~teggi@113.172.60.174] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:11:00 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:11:07 caoliver: (= 1 1) => OH-YES-INDEED 18:11:20 pjb:it handles errors and warnings gracefully, yes. 18:11:30 Some implementations return the object. (= 1 1) --> 1 18:11:37 Hexstream: Was = overridden somehow? 18:11:43 some? 18:11:51 didi: imo, explicitly passing continuations around makes more sense than call/cc and friends anyhow (and of course you can do it in Scheme or CL). it's sort of a way to allow a function to "return" to multiple places. 18:11:57 But none of the six I have installed currently. 18:12:14 caoliver: The spec says = returns a generalized-boolean. So the implementation can return anything non-nil instead of t. 18:12:20 pjb: So this is a hole in the spec. 18:12:32 It's not a hole, it's a contract. 18:12:34 caoliver: What? No. 18:12:48 The contract is between a conforming program and a conforming implementation. 18:13:01 so would you say it's impossible to actually crash a lisp program? 18:13:03 I'd say a hole if you can't rely on the true value. 18:13:11 If you run a non-conforming program or a non-conforming implementation, then the CL standard doesn't say much about it. 18:13:18 caoliver: It's not a hole, and you can rely on the true value. 18:13:27 caoliver: you can rely: anything not CL:NIL is true. 18:13:41 yates: 'course not 18:13:52 For some value of rely. By rely I mean it returns a distinguished value. 18:14:26 Bike: if you have time, show me a minimal lisp program that crashes... 18:14:29 Why would you want that? 18:14:49 caoliver: (if (= 1 1) 'distinguished-value nil) will do it. 18:15:05 Bike: You too are making my mind boil. 18:15:12 caoliver: T and NIL are the only booleans, but any and every object can be treated as a generalized boolean, in which case NIL is generalized boolean false and anything else is generalized boolean true. Predicates usually return a generalized-boolean, and test operators like IF test generalized booleans. 18:15:16 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 18:15:20 I don't like this weasling. It makes code larger than it SHOULD be. 18:15:21 caoliver: It works really very well. 18:15:29 caoliver: Nonsense. 18:15:31 yates: I'm not sure a conforming program can crash. 18:15:56 mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has joined #lisp 18:16:02 Hexstream: I understand that. Still, for equality to return a genbool rather than a bool seems pointless. 18:16:05 caoliver: It will only make the code "larger than it SHOULD be" if you insist on fighted the language and its generalized-booleans instead of working WITH them. 18:16:09 caoliver: oh no no no, it makes the code much smaller than it would be without generalized booleans (and without () = nil = false). 18:16:30 t 18:16:33 I might be being cavalier about what "crash" means. I'm thinking more like "it signals an undefined condition" than "the image is vaporized" 18:16:34 caoliver: Like pjb said, it would make sense for = to return its first argument when true. 18:16:41 I guess my Scheme side is shouling. 18:16:57 caoliver: And yet it would be too restraining on implementations to mandate this behavior. 18:16:59 Showing even. 18:17:01 Anybody has a link to that text that shows how you write a simple expression in lisp, and then in the various versions of scheme until it's unreadable and conclude saying that it prefered the simple form? (which is valid in CL incidentaly). 18:17:01 pjb: what is a conforming program? 18:17:03 but, on say sbcl, I'd consider anything that drops into LDB a "crash" 18:17:07 I can't find it again :-( 18:17:17 LDB? 18:17:20 caoliver: So the spec made the right choice: explicitly leave the issue open and compatible. 18:17:23 yates: one that is specified to behave the same in all conforming implementations. 18:17:25 yates: SBCL's low-level debugger 18:17:26 lisp debugger? 18:17:40 ah. 18:17:53 which isn't part of the standard, of course. dunno if doing that is conforming. 18:18:14 (if (< (length (lisp-implementation-type)) 10) t nil) ; is not conforming: it returns a different result depending on the implementation. 18:18:19 Hexstream: disagree completely. t is the correct value for true predicates. The others are type puns that happen to be convenient at times. 18:18:19 ;-) 18:19:12 ok, well thanks all for entertaining my questions - time to exit the playground and get back to work... 18:19:18 -!- axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-88-224.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:19:19 you can make a lot of non-conforming forms confoming by ignoring their side-effects or results, or by accepting them in a large post-condition. 18:19:31 -!- yates [~user@nc-71-54-138-0.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.0.96.1] 18:19:33 caoliver: Well, I disagree completely with you, as would most of the community. We have far more experience than you, combined or even individually. ;P 18:19:42 caoliver: the whole purpose of computing is human _convenience_, isn't it? 18:19:46 But some non-conforming forms are intrinsically non-conforming, and can produce good results, even ignored. 18:19:52 (defun boolify (x) (and x t)) 18:20:03 -!- yakov [~yakov@spb.nexenta.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:20:18 Hexstream: You may indeed, but we seem to be arguing taste. 18:20:19 axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-88-224.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:20:21 Quadrescence: (not (not x)), C-style ;) 18:20:22 caoliver: what's a situation in which you need = to return t? 18:20:27 pkhuong, ha 18:20:28 Quadrescence: A tragic omission of the spec is (defun boolean (generalized-boolean) (if generalized-boolean t nil)) 18:20:31 Quadrescence: well, yes, but (defun f () (values (= 1 1) 42)) (boolify (f)) is not the same as (f). 18:20:44 Bike: I what situation should = NOT return t/nil. 18:20:46 ? 18:20:52 Hexstream, my function is equivalent 18:21:07 pjb, I just figured i'd throw that out there 18:21:07 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:21:10 Quadrescence: It would be one more symbol in the standard, though. ;P 18:21:19 caoliver: I don't care, as long as if and cond and such work fine with the result 18:21:27 caoliver: for example in a strongly optimized implementation. If you already have 1 in the registers AX and BX, and compare them, it's faster to just return when they're equal, instead of changing AX to point to T. 18:21:31 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:21:31 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:21:37 And since we already have the functions STRING and CHAR and such, we should definitely have the BOOLEAN function. 18:21:39 . o O (Or maybe BOOLICATE. Ha.) 18:22:41 Hexstream: write a CDR. 18:22:46 I'm still surprised when I notice conditional-move-conversion works usefully. 18:22:48 Too bad we can't fbind CL:BOOLEAN. 18:23:31 pjb: CDR would be pointless, I don't want to import a library and shadowing-import its BOOLEAN... It's too late now for CL. 18:23:40 (But not for future dialects! ;P) 18:23:44 we'd have to define a NEW-CL with a BOOLEAN symbol different, and doing that, we have to redefine a NEW-CL:BOOLEAN class, and therefore NEW-CL:T and NEW-CL:NIL, and therefore you need to redefine all the list functions and the reader macro (), etc. 18:24:18 Hexstream: writing a CDR is necessarily, since as I'm showing you here, defining this function can't be done in a library without rewriting the whole CL system. 18:24:39 So you need to write a CDR specification and ask the implementers to include this extension (which they are allowed to by the CL standard). 18:24:46 Oh, so CDRs can actually contradict the spec? 18:24:52 Definitely. 18:25:04 isn't boolean just a type? 18:25:11 (+ CL (reduce '+ CDRs)) --> CLTL3. 18:25:17 Bike: Yeah, that's the problem. 18:25:23 Small problem, but annoying still. 18:25:30 Very. 18:25:37 -!- axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-88-224.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:25:37 Ah, right. No class. 18:25:39 axion1 [~axion@cpe-67-242-88-224.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:25:57 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 18:26:00 Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 18:26:05 What? I thought the standard prohibited implementations from fbinding symbols that are not defined as fbound? 18:26:16 I mean, so you could (defun new-cl:boolean ...) and (deftype new-cl:boolean () '(member t nil)) and be done. 18:27:10 Bike: The new BOOLEAN symbol would not be EQ with the old one, which might occasionate annoying problems. 18:27:49 I suppose the right question is: why does the sdl glue need to return a bool rather than a gbool? Still hate gotcha language lawyering. 18:28:00 Bike: And you'd want to write that as (deftype new-cl:boolean () 'cl:boolean) 18:28:13 oh, yeah. cdr it is then 18:29:37 Hexstream: many CL quiz entries got turned into lisptips 18:29:38 caoliver: Code smell! (people taught me) 18:29:57 Hexstream: I'll put up the quiz data sometime 18:30:07 -!- Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 18:30:10 -!- KingsKnighted [~quassel@c-174-52-149-13.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:30:17 Actually, the only ref I see is an and form. 18:30:28 didi: I'd tend to agree. 18:30:36 Xach: Ah, I see. 18:32:52 The biggest problem with not having a BOOLEAN function, if it counts as one, is that right now there are a bazzilion ways to turn a generalized-boolean into a boolean, so nobody always uses the same one consistently, but if there was this function then everyone would use that one since it would be the obvious idiomatic way to do it. 18:33:11 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 18:33:53 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 18:34:58 yakov [~yakov@ppp89-110-18-65.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 18:35:10 -!- wg1024 [~Adium@dslb-084-058-049-184.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:35:49 -!- drewna` [~user@unlv-nat-131-216-14-38.dhcp.unlv.edu] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 18:36:35 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 18:36:40 Only ref to gbool I see is the firs term in http://sprunge.us/IYff?cl 18:36:40 as long as we're talking about minor CL quibbles, I have one: Is there any reason for defmethod qualifiers to have to be symbols except for making the defmethod grammar work like it does? 18:37:08 caoliver: The only valid use-cases I know of to turn a generalized-boolean into a boolean are: 1. to store a boolean in a long-lived data structure while ensuring garbage collection of unreferenced values in a would-be non-trivial generalized-boolean and 2. to facilititate debugging or conciseness in REPL output and inspector. Rarely needed. 18:37:43 Bike: The qualifiers don't have to be symbols. They have to be non-lists. 18:37:56 that's what I meant, sorry. Atoms. 18:38:12 -!- Orpheus [~user1@pool-96-249-152-140.hrbgpa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:38:17 Bike: Atom and non-list is not exactly the same. 18:38:26 nil is an atom but a list. 18:38:38 bleh. 18:38:42 Hehe. 18:39:07 Bike: How would you recognize lambda-list from qualifiers if a qualifier could be a list? 18:39:44 Hexstream: this bazillion implementation is a good argument to put in the CDR. 18:39:59 you can't, that's what I meant with the grammar comment. but you could have defmethod work like (defmethod name qualifiers lambda-list . body) and it would be unambiguous (if a bit annoying for unqualified methods) 18:40:10 Orpheus [~user1@pool-71-173-143-109.hrbgpa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:40:20 ebobby [~fms@70-36-138-66.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 18:40:37 -!- sabalaba1 [~Adium@c-67-180-195-131.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:40:38 Hexstream: sometimes you need a true boolean for indexing purposes. Eg (funcall (gethash (boolean (= 1 1))) (lambda () then) (lambda () else)) 18:40:49 rpg [~rpg@23-25-144-217-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 18:41:01 Bike: Well, there you have it. 18:41:17 Hexstream: In this particular case the predicate is: (= 1 (cffi:foreign-funcall-pointer f () :int)) 18:41:45 wanting (defmethod name args ...) instead of (defmethod name () args ...) is really the only reason? 18:41:55 antonv [5d7d31f9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.49.249] has joined #lisp 18:42:04 Bike: I think so. And the usual Backwards Compatibility reason. 18:42:23 hum, thanks. 18:42:37 Bike: You can get the effect of list qualifiers with vectors anyway. 18:42:56 Yeah, I hadn't thought of that, that will probably work alright for the weird things I'm doing. Thanks. 18:42:59 Which are pretty #(notationally convenient) 18:43:03 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 18:44:09 lisppaste is The server is temporarily unable to service your request due to maintenance downtime or capacity problems. Please try again later. 18:45:18 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 18:46:21 -!- justicefries [~justicefr@50-76-131-66-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 18:46:33 is anyone familiar with literature attempting to make the CL type system less bad? 18:46:47 Quadrescence: less bad how? 18:46:59 Qi/Shen? 18:47:10 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-132-113.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 18:47:17 pkhuong, any of those outlined here: http://symbo1ics.com/blog/?p=1495 18:47:32 QiGong ? 18:47:44 No. 18:47:55 pjb, qi/shen I'm familiar with but that's an attempt to make a whole new language 18:48:00 64 types should suffice for everyone! 18:48:04 lol 18:48:31 Quadrescence: a while ago I read a nice little paper called "a decision procedure for TYPEP" or the like that might be relevant? 18:48:33 one for me one for Quadri one for me one for pjb two for me........ 18:48:39 lol 18:49:00 Bike, Baker's? 18:49:05 I think it was for SUBTYPEP 18:49:10 Ah, yeah. My mistake. 18:49:17 type greed...meh 18:49:31 wbooze, ? 18:49:31 IIRC near the end he laid out some suggested alterations, like unintegrating classes? 18:49:32 You know where to find Haskell! 18:49:48 I read that as altercations. 18:50:10 altercations happen fine on their own, no need to suggest them 18:50:42 kmels [~kmels@HSI-KBW-078-043-223-122.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 18:51:00 Why isn't sprunge highlighting my CL code correctly? GRUMBLE POUT 18:51:32 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:51:33 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:51:43 caoliver: you're in a minority now. 18:51:53 Eh? 18:53:13 Lisp Studies, Lisp Positive Action, Lisp Affirmative Action, Lisp Pride Celebration, etc. 18:53:23 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:53:45 Lisp - Java Parity. 18:53:53 not to forget lisp pron! 18:53:54 lol 18:54:07 Everywhere they hire a Java programmer, they should hire a corresponding Lisp programmer, at the same salary level! 18:54:13 pjb: parity? Domination you mean. 18:54:30 http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/09/jobs/09work.html 18:55:03 We only demand parity. 18:55:50 fogus [~fogus@burke-matrex.d-a-s.com] has joined #lisp 18:55:59 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 18:56:18 sabalaba [~Adium@c-67-180-195-131.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:56:43 I want ECC. Java is an bit error needing correction. 18:57:44 Strike an/insert a. 18:57:54 *caoliver* notes he needs new typing fingers. 18:58:15 ^pnpuff [~pnpuff@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 18:58:58 justicefries [~justicefr@50-76-131-66-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 18:59:03 antgreen [user@nat/redhat/x-weoklszpvfmpqbyh] has joined #lisp 18:59:17 -!- deadghost [~deadghost@71-84-68-72.dhcp.rvsd.ca.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:59:33 pkhuong, as a short but vague answer to your question, i want to be able to express more program invariants through the type system that the compiler can understand, and also I'd like to have more expressive "values" (e.g., discriminated unions/sum types) 18:59:47 -!- fogus is now known as `fogus 19:00:14 Quadrescence: classes. 19:00:23 pjb, no, classes aren't the answer 19:00:30 -!- ^pnpuff [~pnpuff@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has left #lisp 19:00:47 (defclass a () ()) (defclass b () ()) (defclass c () ()) (defun f (x) (check-type x (or a b c)) (typecase x (a (do-a x)) (b (do-b x)) (c (do-c x)))) 19:00:53 ^pnpuff [~pnpuff@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 19:00:54 suit me. 19:02:08 what about (defmethod f ((x a)) ...) etc? 19:02:18 works too. 19:02:24 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:02:39 (defgenerc f (x) (:method ((x a)) ) (:method ((x b)) ) ) too. 19:03:15 Quadrescence: I'd go with a DSL that interfaces nicely with CL. 19:04:01 My point is that you could want to discriminate with pattern matching on lists and vectors, but AFAIK, Haskell does it with a tag, just like classes. 19:04:02 dim, what you'd end up doing is creating a superclass of all of those classes to express the actual sum type. And then you'll have to define a singleton metaclass to properly express the concept of unique values in the sum. And by the time you get done with all of that, you've outclever'd the compiler. 19:04:55 -!- justicefries [~justicefr@50-76-131-66-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 19:05:03 -!- drewna [~user@bobby.CS.unlv.edu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:05:09 You also can't express the concept of parametric types/containers using classes. You either include everything in your class slots or you include a very particular type. 19:05:11 Quadrescence: why are you trying to turn CL into ocaml/haskell? 19:05:16 drewna [~user@bobby.CS.unlv.edu] has joined #lisp 19:05:16 Quadrescence: sorry i didn't backlog enough to know what problem you're trying to solve, I was just surprised that pjb was bypassing CLOS dispatch 19:05:47 dim: I just wanted to emphasize a "case"-like form similar to how you'd write it in Haskell and similar. 19:05:49 caoliver, i'm not trying to turn it into haskell or ocaml. 19:06:07 But of course, defgeneric/defmethod would be the way to do it. 19:06:14 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 19:06:33 It seems you're trying to force fit static type safety on a language which was intended to be so. 19:06:34 Quadrescence: parametric containers + side effects = much hairiness. 19:06:52 s/was/wasn't/ 19:06:58 caoliver, Lisp is already type safe, so it's not a new concept. We can already express types, so it's also not a new concept. 19:07:13 pkhuong, yeah :( 19:07:22 And nothing says types are not resolved at compilation time. Some implementations (sbcl) just do that. 19:08:02 pjb, But the scope of resolvable types is limited. And the scope of expressible types is limited. 19:08:14 Exactly. 19:08:24 Quadrescence: satisfying. 19:08:36 that is the problem i am trying to address. As far as I'm concerned, Lisp is great at it's optional type system, and I'd prefer it to stay the way it is. 19:09:02 (it's great at the type system being optional, and enforced when a compiler is up to snuff at analysis) 19:09:14 Yes. 19:09:17 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@mc00536d0.tmodns.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 19:09:18 So? 19:10:00 Lisp can already express some parametric types, like vectors/arrays. Why can't programmers be able to define their own? 19:10:10 They can. 19:10:25 pjb, They can build on the parametric types that already exist. 19:10:26 (deftype my-type (my-parameter) `(something ,my-parameter something)) 19:10:33 Quadrescence: I'd take a look at PLT's contract stuff. They even have some logic to dynamically enforce parametricity. 19:10:37 deadghost [~deadghost@71-84-68-72.dhcp.rvsd.ca.charter.com] has joined #lisp 19:10:52 -!- agumonkey [~agu@235.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 19:10:53 agumonke1 [~agu@235.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 19:11:37 pjb, Can you write a type (table p q) that defines a unique type (not a subtype of another type except for T) which represents an associative map from type P to type Q? 19:12:07 -!- peterhil` [~peterhil@gatekeeper.brainalliance.com] has quit [Quit: Must not waste too much time here...] 19:12:37 And if you get that far, do you know of a compiler that can usefully employ the type information? 19:12:37 (defclass table () ((source-type :initarg :source-type) (destination-type :initarg :destination-type) (map))) 19:12:47 (make-instance 'table :source-type 'p :destination-type 'q) 19:13:13 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:13:49 ehu [~ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 19:14:07 Or you can write (deftype table (p q) (ensure-class (gensym) '() :slots ( p  q))) too. 19:14:37 so, no 19:14:53 <^pnpuff> ? 19:14:57 -!- ori-l [~ori-l@wikipedia/ori-livneh] has left #lisp 19:14:58 So yes, two different ways. 19:17:00 justicefries [~justicefr@50-76-131-66-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 19:17:47 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 19:18:58 -!- jsnell [~jsnell@ash.snellman.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:19:36 jsnell [~jsnell@ash.snellman.net] has joined #lisp 19:19:55 -!- sabalaba [~Adium@c-67-180-195-131.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:20:18 -!- agumonke1 [~agu@235.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:20:56 agumonkey [~agu@235.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 19:21:03 Euthy [~euthy@unaffiliated/euthydemus] has joined #lisp 19:21:53 -!- schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-025-184.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:22:04 ThomasH [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/thomash] has joined #lisp 19:22:04 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:22:20 Greetings lispers 19:22:30 -!- jjkola_work [c064782a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.192.100.120.42] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:22:31 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:22:59 Greets. 19:24:35 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:25:43 NikolaiDante [~nikolaida@unaffiliated/knighterrant] has joined #lisp 19:26:18 Demosthenes [~demo@mc00536d0.tmodns.net] has joined #lisp 19:28:30 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 19:28:52 blablaa [~user@unaffiliated/blablaa] has joined #lisp 19:34:03 woudshoo [~user@ironhead.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 19:35:53 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:37:11 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 19:39:33 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 19:40:04 Xach: (let ((array (make-array nil :element-type (quote null) :initial-element nil))) (aref array)) --> NIL ; conformingly AFAIK, and all implementations I have do that. 19:40:19 I admit, it's strange. 19:40:20 -!- Alice3 [~Alice@cpc3-grim12-0-0-cust856.12-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:40:38 pjb: context? 19:40:49 paul0 [~paul0@201.86.66.219.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has joined #lisp 19:41:09 It comes from clhs aref "If no subscripts are supplied and array is zero rank, aref accesses the sole element of array." 19:41:14 "odd forms" from Zach Beane: Common Lisp quiz. 19:41:52 (aref (make-array nil :initial-element 42)) --> 42 19:42:18 pjb: Yes...? 19:42:27 I think it's strange and neat and that is why I put it there. 19:42:28 Ok, so it's "None of the above" :-) 19:42:35 yes 19:43:18 I wanted to make it a multiple choice test with automatic scoring, so nerds could brag 19:43:26 That limited the form of questions and answers a bit 19:43:43 -!- kmels [~kmels@HSI-KBW-078-043-223-122.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:43:51 <^pnpuff> o.O 19:44:59 slyrus_ [~chatzilla@173-228-44-92.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 19:45:11 Is there a practical use for a zero-dimensional array? 19:45:17 About *terminal-io*, it's strange. I've rebound it in servers and stuff like that to redirect I/O to the client socket I should revise my code. 19:45:59 ThomasH: python closures? 19:46:04 sorry, that is a bad joke 19:46:06 ThomasH: to wrap scalars in arrays, eg in a linear algebra library . 19:46:11 -!- AlbireoX`Laptop [~AlbireoX@76.78.168.33] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:47:46 Perhaps servers are not user programs. 19:48:25 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 19:48:29 AlbireoX [~AlbireoX@76.78.168.33] has joined #lisp 19:48:57 -!- _d3f [~d3f@79.172.193.130] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:49:02 "Attempt no landing there" 19:49:06 is there another progrmming language with something like common lisp "compile" function? 19:49:29 blablaa: some other programming languages have an equivalent of EVAL. COMPILE is similar to EVAL. 19:49:41 mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has joined #lisp 19:49:41 _d3f [~d3f@79.172.193.130] has joined #lisp 19:49:57 blablaa: in C, you can use LLVM, or call an external compiler and load dynamically libraries to do the same. 19:50:09 therefore you can do the same in most other programming languages. 19:50:26 the point is just that it's not as convenient as cl:compile. 19:50:36 pjb, i know, but none has this feature standardized it seems :) 19:50:41 pjb, and it seems strange. 19:50:55 eval is in some languages. Most languages are not standardized. 19:51:30 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@mc00536d0.tmodns.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 19:51:57 blablaa: I'd say it's an historical artifact. Lisp was designed by far foresighting people. The other languages were designed around the limitations of the computers of their time. C is designed to run in 16 Kword RAM with 128 KB disks. 19:52:18 Alice3 [~Alice@cpc3-grim12-0-0-cust856.12-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 19:52:20 Today, C can be used on PIC with 256 BYTEs of RAM and 16 KB of ROM. 19:53:26 of course today we have quad core phones with like 2GB, so you can see which is more useful in the long run ;) 19:53:39 (..of ram) 19:53:39 -!- Praise [~Fat@unaffiliated/praise] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:53:56 <^pnpuff> ? 19:55:31 -!- NikolaiDante [~nikolaida@unaffiliated/knighterrant] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 19:55:51 -!- Bike [~Glossina@67-5-235-160.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:56:25 -!- blablaa [~user@unaffiliated/blablaa] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:57:05 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 19:57:33 ^pnpuff: no specific question? 19:57:45 xaxisx_ [~xaxisx@24.137.208.218] has joined #lisp 19:57:56 Bike [~Glossina@67-5-232-132.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 19:58:19 <^pnpuff> /o\ 20:04:13 -!- ^pnpuff [~pnpuff@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has quit [Quit: .] 20:04:16 ccorn [~ccorn@dhcp-077-249-189-246.chello.nl] has joined #lisp 20:04:36 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:08:14 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 20:11:43 Amadiro [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp0217.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 20:12:33 I wonder if a Lisp application should try to isolate itself somewhat hardcoding the path to the implementation and passing a --no-userinit flag, assuming SBCL. 20:13:22 blablaa1 [~user@88-149-129-149.v4.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 20:13:24 -!- blablaa1 is now known as blablaa 20:13:24 -!- blablaa [~user@88-149-129-149.v4.ngi.it] has quit [Changing host] 20:13:25 blablaa [~user@unaffiliated/blablaa] has joined #lisp 20:13:33 I think that yes. 20:13:40 At least, for a user. 20:13:59 It can have its own specific ~/.config/$APPLICATION/init.lisp if you want. 20:14:22 -!- AlbireoX [~AlbireoX@76.78.168.33] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:14:26 No need to hardcode the path, unless you mean in the starting script. 20:15:37 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:16:50 Praise [~Fat@unaffiliated/praise] has joined #lisp 20:17:19 kjbrock [~kevin@63.110.51.11] has joined #lisp 20:17:30 pjb: I actually mean the starting script. Hey, your .config idea is nice and solve my dilemma. 20:18:07 -!- yakov [~yakov@ppp89-110-18-65.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:19:24 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 20:20:37 -!- woudshoo [~user@ironhead.xs4all.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:21:47 didi: I think that in starting scripts, it's indeed best to hard code the path to the executable and other resources. The starting scripts can be edited (automatically even) when installing and moving the application. 20:22:12 eMBee_ [~eMBee@foresight/developer/pike/programmer] has joined #lisp 20:22:12 -!- eMBee_ [~eMBee@foresight/developer/pike/programmer] has quit [Client Quit] 20:22:29 They can also use relative paths, if you put them in bundles /Applications/MyApp.app/Contents/MacOS/MyApp <-- starting script. the executable and resources are in ../* 20:23:50 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:24:11 -!- Bike [~Glossina@67-5-232-132.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 20:25:11 About zero-dimensional arrays: https://twitter.com/HexstreamSoft/status/248155470634819584 (I don't know why that trips people up. ;P) 20:25:32 Bike [~Glossina@67-5-237-171.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 20:27:04 trebor_home [~email@dslb-178-004-067-070.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 20:27:24 -!- ccorn [~ccorn@dhcp-077-249-189-246.chello.nl] has quit [Quit: ccorn] 20:27:32 ccorn [~ccorn@dhcp-077-249-189-246.chello.nl] has joined #lisp 20:28:20 #0A42 20:28:25 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 20:28:37 (aref #0Ahello) => hello 20:28:51 (aref #0A(1 2 3)) => (1 2 3) 20:30:03 yakov [~yakov@ppp91-122-4-131.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 20:31:35 -!- `fogus is now known as `fogus|away 20:34:00 -!- les [moreorles@fsf/member/les] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:35:17 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 20:35:29 les [~les@lesharris.com] has joined #lisp 20:35:29 -!- les [~les@lesharris.com] has quit [Changing host] 20:35:29 les [~les@fsf/member/les] has joined #lisp 20:37:25 -!- SHUPFS [~user@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:39:45 SHUPFS [~user@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 20:40:40 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 20:40:59 -!- les 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