00:01:36 zeissoctopus [~zeissocto@183178133120.ctinets.com] has joined #lisp 00:01:44 Cosman246 [~user@c-66-235-50-85.sea.wa.customer.broadstripe.net] has joined #lisp 00:02:43 razieliyo: special variables basically allow you to change the value of the variable for nested calls, without affecting the other calls. so i could have one thread in which *a* is 100 and another in which *a* is 200. at the same time. it's a tad more flexible, but that's basically what you should be looking at 00:05:05 well, I think a huge part of their utility is that they are able to be rebound within particular call scopes, not so much because they can be rebound per thread (though that's useful too) 00:05:09 madnificent: so I guess special vars (dynamic scope) binds the last value it's been given 00:05:25 you can write your code assuming it's going to have access to something that seems like a global variable 00:05:38 but you can wrap the *caller* and rebind them, and the caller will see the wrapped value. 00:06:20 razieliyo: in CL there's no way to declare a global lexical variable. You can implement a deflexical or defglobal operator with CL, using define-symbol-macro. You can find a deflexical or defglobal macro in various libraries. 00:07:34 razieliyo: (defun hello () (format t "Hello, world!~%")) (with-output-to-string (*standard-output*) (hello)) 00:07:44 razieliyo: but in general, we want the lexical scopes to match the parentheses. With deflexical, there's no parenthesis to denote its lexical scope. lexical scope means spacial, not temporal. With a deflexical, it becomes also temporal: functions defined BEFORE deflexical cannot know there's a lexical variables, only functions defined AFTER. 00:07:50 razieliyo: whereas simply calling (hello) will most likely send the output to stdout. 00:07:58 pjb: well, I'm not trying to do that, I'm just trying to understand what's under that concepts 00:08:20 it's about the runtime, dynamic context, whereas lexical variables are about how something reads in the source code, if that makes any sense. 00:08:52 Bike: you got it ;) 00:09:11 -!- postfuturist [~sgoss@chirashi.kavi.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:09:51 okay, I'm having this clearer with all those explanations 00:09:54 thank you all, really 00:10:00 H4ns: let the raspberrylisping begin! 00:10:46 razieliyo: and don't feel bad. When lexical scoping was new, there were a bunch of very smart PhDs scratching their heads when someone explained it to them. :) 00:11:19 sykopomp: lol, that gives me some hope to understand this issue 00:11:41 razieliyo: it might help to understand if you tried to implement the code example i gave you with regular lexical variables. 00:11:42 I feel like that when I'm going to get it, it just vanishes from my head 00:11:57 sykopomp: I'll try, let's see 00:12:45 SrPx [b128a42a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.177.40.164.42] has joined #lisp 00:15:04 -!- zeissoctopus [~zeissocto@183178133120.ctinets.com] has quit [Quit: ] 00:17:25 zeissoctopus [~zeissocto@183178133120.ctinets.com] has joined #lisp 00:18:24 sykopomp: you just don't use vars there, do you? 00:18:40 sykopomp: well, you mean *standard-output*? 00:19:44 razieliyo: with-output-to-string binds a string output stream to a variable. Anything accessing that variable will write to the stream output string it refers to. 00:19:47 oh, I see 00:20:28 so, if I wanted to do that with lexical var, I should create that stream because it doesn't binds with the "external" *standard-output* 00:21:05 but then how does (hello) write to that stream? 00:21:31 the stream isn't an argument. It's simply a variable that it expects to exist somewhere. 00:21:31 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A2C33.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 00:21:58 I think it writes to that stream because *standard-output* is a special var created by my common lisp implementation 00:22:42 I guess I should've implemented it as (format *standard-output* "Hello world!~%") to be clearer. 00:25:40 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@91-119-209-176.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:25:48 lispin [~user@76-198-128-124.lightspeed.mtvwca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:25:54 -!- slyrus_ [~chatzilla@173-228-44-92.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:27:19 -!- agumonkey [~agu@235.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:27:48 then again, everyone in C world should use fprintf not printf ;) 00:28:55 Anyone have emacs+slime working on OS X Mountain Lion? Mine only works briefly then loses its "connection" 00:29:12 lispin: Works fine here. 00:29:34 lispin: Is your CL dying? 00:29:51 sellout42: I thought it might be the lisp, but it happens under both sbcl and ccl 00:30:21 lispin: Nothing telling in the *inferior-lisp* or *Messages* buffers? 00:30:46 lispin: Recent versions of everything? 00:31:17 sellout42: Using slime CVS HEAD. Which improved things somewhat over an older one I had 00:31:42 sellout42: My setup worked fine under Lion, but after upgrading, it barely worked 00:34:22 sykopomp: I think I'm losing myself with your example 00:34:37 sykopomp: what do you actually mean by try to implement it with lexical variable? 00:35:05 razieliyo: I mean that you can't. 00:35:07 do you mean to wrap that "Hello, world!" string into a variable? 00:35:14 sykopomp: very late response, but i was mainly aimaing for something tangible 00:35:19 lol 00:36:03 razieliyo: To be able to redirect where a function outputs to just by altering the dynamic scope around the call rather than the function itself. 00:38:04 Bike: okay, so that's impossible 00:39:23 pirateking-_- [~piratekin@unaffiliated/pirateking---/x-2885143] has joined #lisp 00:40:43 but, couldn't you create a stream that points to stdout and use it inside the with-bleh call? okay, you couldn't because that stream would be only visible outside that call? 00:41:58 Yes, that's the point. Lexical bindings don't cross function calls, basically. 00:42:20 okay, now I get it 00:42:23 thank you all, really 00:44:45 -!- jjkola [~androirc@212-226-59-76-nat.elisa-mobile.fi] has quit [Quit: quit] 00:47:26 sellout42: I'm also using the latest Emacs.app from http://emacsformacosx.com. 00:48:11 sellout42: Is your working-on-mountain-lion setup the same? 00:49:00 sellout42: I also discovered in *inferior-lisp* that sbcl seg faults and ccl gives a bizarre error about malloc. 00:49:20 lispin: Sorry, got distracted  I'm using recently built Emacs from bzr, Slime from Quicklisp, and CCL built from a not-that-recent-actually checkout. 00:49:34 lispin: Oooh, lisppaste those errors. 00:49:43 aslan69 [~aslan69@c-75-71-21-183.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:49:43 ,lisppaste 00:49:52 minion: lisppaste 00:49:52 lisppaste: lisppaste is an IRC bot that runs under the nickname "lisppaste" and can be used (only for the #lisp IRC channel!) at http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp - or http://paste.lisp.org/ for other destinations 00:50:03 *sellout42* forgets his channels, sometimes. 00:51:27 -!- bad_alloc [~bad_alloc@HSI-KBW-046-005-215-057.hsi8.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 00:52:28 http://paste.lisp.org/+2TP6 00:55:04 sellout42: This occurs after a few minutes of lisping around in slime 00:55:36 sellout42: Prior to upgrading slime, it wouldn't work at all.. it would crash immediately 00:55:54 sellout42: Which made me think it has something to do with slime. I'll try the quicklisp version 01:00:18 -!- razieliyo [~user@unaffiliated/razieliyo] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:02:59 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@1.142.110.147] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:05:15 lispin: What are you SBCL and CCL versions? 01:07:07 pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has joined #lisp 01:08:23 sellout42: sbcl 1.0.58, ccl 1.8-r15286M (DarwinX8664) 01:09:08 sellout42: got same results under sbcl 1.0.52 also, which worked fine under lion 01:09:15 lispin: looks like you got bad ram.. 01:09:44 ISF [~ivan@189.61.221.122] has joined #lisp 01:10:11 pkhuong: you suspect hardware is glitching? 01:10:24 Yuuhi` [benni@p5483AFDF.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 01:12:03 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483B598.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:13:11 Bummer, just got same results with SLIME from Quicklisp. 01:15:08 -!- pk1001100011 [~pk@public-gprs405114.centertel.pl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:16:33 -!- zeissoctopus [~zeissocto@183178133120.ctinets.com] has quit [Quit: ] 01:19:31 -!- kuzary [~who@gateway/tor-sasl/kuzary] has quit [Quit: return 0;] 01:31:33 Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 01:33:48 -!- Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-71-191-38-245.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:35:11 steffi_s [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1168074916.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 01:37:45 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.196.98.152] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:39:21 I figured it out, I think. Caused by a buggy call under CFFI. For some reason Mountain Lion is less forgiving of it. Thanks for your help guys 01:40:00 DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@120.154.0.145] has joined #lisp 01:46:29 -!- dmx [~dmx@adsl-67-121-157-253.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 01:50:47 -!- lispin [~user@76-198-128-124.lightspeed.mtvwca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: woot] 01:51:50 -!- PuercoPop420 is now known as PuercoPop 01:57:36 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 02:00:20 -!- ArmyOfBruce [~bmitchene@waywardmonkeys.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 02:00:49 ArmyOfBruce [~bmitchene@waywardmonkeys.com] has joined #lisp 02:04:02 -!- qptain_Nemo [~qN@81-235-52-30-no79.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:12:07 -!- steffi_s [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1168074916.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: zzzz] 02:16:01 -!- justinmcp [~justinmcp@ppp118-208-3-7.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:17:40 mritz_ [~textual@cpe-66-25-166-122.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:17:43 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pirateking-_- SrPx Cosman246 Vivitron peterhil pinterface1 PuercoPop sykopomp sellout42 Nisstyre-laptop kcj moore33 tensorpudding Jasko DDR remote eli setheus Harag sirdancealot7 dmiles_afk theos snits didi Bike Xach clop jnbek|wc rmarianski nullman sytse lide xpoqz Inode tritchey ineiros nuba 03:36:20 -!- names: cmm astopholos_ phrixos turbolent Quadrescence hugod kiuma drdo bitonic mathrick_ Tordek foreignFunction fe[nl]ix ASau trebor_dki kanru Subfusc specbot acieroid Fullmoon EyesIsMine Zemyla ace4016 BrianRice askatasuna em robot-beethoven wchun Nisstyre [SLB] Orpheus egn les oconnore AntiSpamMeta Tristam Vutral SHODAN mhi^ araujo sbryant vert2 Spaceghost|cloud df_ copec Viaken derrida bobbysmith007 bjorkintosh keltvek angavrilov dim minion naiv_ DGASAU 03:36:20 -!- names: macrobat lcc uniwiz p_l brandonz dRbiG ruediger magnificrab dfox naryl easye cryptic impulse s0ber kleppari_ theBlackDragon loke_erc setmeaway quazimodo _schulte_ kanru_ CrazyEddy cpape arbscht ski pchrist 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quasisane faheem kyle__ jfe DT` Fade j_king ianmcorvidae srcerer ered jeekl mikaelj BeLucid_ brendyn aerique redline6561 reactormonk lemoinem literal tkd freiksenet rfgpfeiffer limetree pr cpt_nemo samebchase 03:36:20 -!- names: daimrod ozzloy SeanTAllen _3b tvaalen drewc Odin- Yahovah_ boyscared cYmen joshe Guest63158 DrForr xaxisx frodef ramus |3b| eudicot finnrobi yroeht _root_ vhost- xristos H4ns qsun froydnj gensym zbigniew jsnell scode galdor sigjuice_ kirin` basho sweet_kid hpd felideon eMBee rvirding johs cmbntr jaxtr hiredman renard_ yan_ dsp_ ecraven jasom Bucciarati vsync ft rotty felipe oGMo nitro_idiot spacefrogg^ gf3 The_third_man pok_ clog mtd 03:36:45 joekarma [~joekarma@S0106602ad090cd68.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 03:40:54 -!- p_nathan [~anunknown@75.87.250.229] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 03:50:39 -!- brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-142-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: brb] 03:53:11 brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-142-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:59:28 duko_ [~duko@cpe-76-174-26-24.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:59:52 -!- ace4016 [~ace4016@cpe-024-074-197-085.ec.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: When there's nothing left to burn you have to set yourself on fire.] 04:00:13 hi everyone. i'm trying to load files that were retrieved with quicklisp using asdf 04:00:25 i'm not sure if this is the right way to go about this either 04:00:41 -!- aslan69 [~aslan69@c-75-71-21-183.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: aslan69] 04:01:00 but i've found that i can load a single file if I add its full 'quicklisp directory' path to asdf registry 04:01:19 however I would like to load all of the files that I've installed with quicklisp 04:01:50 and if I add the parent directory in which the subdirectories owned by each package reside 04:01:57 duko_: Quicklisp uses ASDF. 04:02:16 should i be using quicklisp always to load packages and files? 04:02:16 -!- zmyrgel` is now known as zmyrgel 04:02:28 duko_: that's what I do. 04:02:43 i read the quicklisp faq and it says something to the affect that quicklisp is like a package manager 04:02:47 and asdf is like 'make' 04:02:53 duko_: That's correct. 04:03:14 didi: ok i think i understand 04:03:17 thanks 04:03:20 np 04:03:47 -!- rme [~rme@50.43.162.7] has left #lisp 04:05:54 i've loaded the files i need using only quicklisp 04:06:10 much less boiler-plate which is nice 04:07:32 duko_: Quicklisp is great. 04:09:29 yes indeed :) 04:12:15 -!- gko [~user@42-75-144-143.dynamic-ip.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:19:57 Shouldn't (allocate-instance 'foo) return a non-initialized instance of `foo' class? `There is no applicable method for the generic function' 04:20:30 it takes a class, not a class name. do (allocate-instance (find-class 'foo)) 04:20:53 Bike: Awesome, thank you. 14:12:24 ccl-logbot [~ccl-logbo@setf.clozure.com] has joined #lisp 14:12:24 14:12:24 -!- names: ccl-logbot klltkr_ sykopomp sambio kanru mishoo foobar__ francisl mucker jasom Bucciarati vsync ft rotty felipe mtd clog pok_ The_third_man gf3 spacefrogg^ nitro_idiot oGMo ecraven dsp_ yan_ hiredman jaxtr cmbntr johs felideon hpd sweet_kid basho kirin` jsnell zbigniew gensym froydnj qsun H4ns xristos vhost- _root_ yroeht finnrobi eudicot |3b| ramus frodef xaxisx DrForr Guest63158 joshe cYmen boyscared Yahovah_ Odin- drewc _3b ozzloy samebchase limetree 14:12:24 -!- names: freiksenet tkd literal redline6561 brendyn BeLucid_ srcerer ianmcorvidae j_king Fade jfe faheem rabite_ loke mal__ cola_zero jasox Posterdati kyl herbieB scharan madnificent Obfuscate PECCU lionping mechanyancat jrockway surrounder fmu nightfly_ terjesb weinholt newcup fasta tdmackey Patzy Buglouse rtoym djinni` alanpearce hswe nicdev pjb guaqua jayne abeaumont rvchangue Euthy ZombieChicken NNshag antoszka cmatei otwieracz ChibaPet lusory foom pkhuong 14:12:24 -!- names: maxm billstclair Guest50086 hypnocat barik slyrus JPeterson sshirokov pareidol1a housel Axioplase drl_ rdd joast 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14:16:49 mrSpec [~Spec@77.253.13.185] has joined #lisp 14:16:49 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@77.253.13.185] has quit [Changing host] 14:16:49 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 14:19:02 tsuru [~charlie@adsl-74-179-31-225.bna.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 14:19:02 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:19:35 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:19:48 -!- yrk` [~user@c-50-133-134-220.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 14:20:17 KingsKnighted [~quassel@c-174-52-149-13.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:20:41 pkhuong: great, my first real use of ,, ;) 14:21:18 reactormonk [freak@cpe-70-113-86-124.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:21:59 ? (list (lisp-implementation-type) (lisp-implementation-version) (software-type) (software-version)) 14:22:01 ("Clozure Common Lisp" "Version 1.9-dev-r15424M-trunk (LinuxARM32)" "Linux" "3.2.27-4-ARCH+") 14:22:12 sykopomp: \o/ 14:22:19 sykopomp: with your stock kernel? 14:22:22 H4ns: exciting! I needed to use the trunk version of CCL. 1.8 doesn't have armv6 support. :) 14:22:30 yeah 14:22:31 ah, uh, yeah 14:22:37 -!- klltkr [~klltkr@static-93.158.79.70.got.public.icomera.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 14:23:08 woudshoo` [~user@ironhead.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 14:24:05 hmmm, no, got «,',» again. 14:24:09 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 14:24:13 sykopomp: what system? 14:27:09 Xach: raspberry pi 14:27:23 eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 14:27:35 sykopomp: you also want to recompile your lisp kernel with hwfloat support 14:27:50 looks like we're not even accepting a single base cpu instruction set anymore these days. cool 14:27:59 sykopomp: cool. i just got one on tuesday. waiting for some connectors to set it up. 14:28:00 fold [~fold@66-169-204-12.dhcp.ftwo.tx.charter.com] has joined #lisp 14:28:08 sykopomp: http://clozure.com/pipermail/openmcl-devel/2012-July/013677.html 14:28:36 -!- FreeTux is now known as Tuxedo 14:28:56 H4ns: the configuration you have on github for the rPi, are they to 'optimize' CCL, or are they there to allow for CFFI and the likes? 14:29:36 madnificent: they are linux definitions for the ccl ffi, so that one can use most of the linux api w/o further groveling. 14:29:50 H4ns: thanks 14:29:51 madnificent: i needed that for framebuffer support 14:30:07 the main problem I'm having with the pi is that I can't use a keyboard with it. The keys stick, for some reason. I need to ssh into it. 14:30:27 the key sticking is so bad, I can't even log in. :( 14:30:35 sykopomp: that is either a power supply or a sdcard issue 14:30:51 Try with another keyboard, consuming les. 14:30:53 less 14:31:23 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:31:33 sykopomp: drove me mad. when i swapped the sdcard, the problem went away. also, make sure that you are using a good 5v power supply giving at least 1 ampere of current. 14:32:18 H4ns: I'll have to look more carefully at my power supply. I was using the usb cable + wall plug from my phone. 14:32:36 sykopomp: that can work well 14:33:14 sykopomp: not sure if it'll help you out, but dealextreme has a few outlets for cheap which supply 2A. if you're in luck, the HP touchpad was supplied with one that does something similar, but i'm not sure if it'll 'trigger' the 2A mode if the TP isn't attached to it. 14:33:53 AlbireoX [~AlbireoX@76.78.168.37] has joined #lisp 14:33:54 I have an actual wall plug. I just haven't tried it. I just need to actually look at how much power it provides. I'll try dealextreme/newegg if it's not enough. 14:34:01 i had all kinds of grief trying different power supplies, nothing worked. then i swapped the sdcard for another one, problem solved. 14:34:05 just saying. 14:34:26 H4ns: makes sense 14:34:33 although the external hard drive I connected to it is perfectly happy, and I always want to ssh into the pi anyway. 14:35:05 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 14:36:06 yrk [~user@c-50-133-134-220.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:36:10 -!- yrk [~user@c-50-133-134-220.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 14:36:10 yrk [~user@pdpc/supporter/student/yrk] has joined #lisp 14:37:15 -!- lacedaemon is now known as fe[nl]ix 14:38:46 kpal [~kpal@janus-nat-128-240-225-120.ncl.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 14:39:24 klltkr [~klltkr@static-93.158.79.70.got.public.icomera.com] has joined #lisp 14:41:36 paul0 [~paul0@201.86.64.32.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has joined #lisp 14:41:39 -!- ``Erik_ is now known as ``Erik 14:42:31 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 14:43:23 -!- varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:45:41 -!- woudshoo` [~user@ironhead.xs4all.nl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:45:44 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 14:49:07 -!- crypto_ is now known as z0d 14:49:12 -!- z0d [~z0d@q.notresp.com] has quit [Changing host] 14:49:12 z0d [~z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has joined #lisp 14:49:28 -!- Cymew [~user@fw01d.snowmen.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:51:26 frito [user@nat/ibm/x-glolzmtaeaqpjdif] has joined #lisp 14:51:40 slyrus_ [~chatzilla@99-27-206-179.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:53:59 Is it a reasonable script to run a Lisp application ? This is supposed to be double clicked by an unsuspecting user. The files are all on the same directory. PS: It's working! :^) 14:54:04 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 14:55:18 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.35.111] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 14:55:52 didi: i use buildapp for things like that 14:56:06 mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.35.111] has joined #lisp 14:56:58 Xach: I like buildapp, but I get into some problems sometimes because of the compiling X runtime difference. Sometimes my filepaths end up on the image and everything breaks. 14:58:07 It's all my fault, obviously. 14:59:58 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8] 15:01:32 -!- LaughingMan [~chatzilla@boccacio.fh-trier.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 15:03:25 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 15:04:03 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:05:19 OK, if there is no outstanding bug, it's packaging time! 15:06:50 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 15:07:07 postfuturist [~sgoss@chirashi.kavi.com] has joined #lisp 15:08:03 MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-8-148-128.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 15:08:15 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-8-235-174.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 15:12:23 -!- MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-8-148-128.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 15:15:48 ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has joined #lisp 15:15:52 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:16:42 alvis [~user@tx-184-6-179-166.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 15:18:15 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 15:20:35 -!- bioh [~bioh@217.118.81.195] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 15:21:18 bioh [~bioh@217.118.81.195] has joined #lisp 15:21:24 -!- alvis [~user@tx-184-6-179-166.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:21:45 -!- frito [user@nat/ibm/x-glolzmtaeaqpjdif] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 15:21:45 SeanTAllen [u.4855@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ilavfxzqkhpongmt] has joined #lisp 15:21:55 -!- kiuma_ [~kiuma@static-217-133-17-91.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:23:54 -!- pk1001100011 [~pk@czu186.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:24:36 Oddity [~Oddity@d154-20-194-103.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 15:24:37 -!- Oddity [~Oddity@d154-20-194-103.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Changing host] 15:24:37 Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has joined #lisp 15:27:12 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:27:35 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 15:27:37 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:28:13 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-87-79-194-128.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 15:28:45 -!- dnolen` [~user@cpe-69-203-204-197.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:29:29 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 15:29:57 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:30:01 -!- klltkr [~klltkr@static-93.158.79.70.got.public.icomera.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:30:20 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-24-218-68.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:30:21 klltkr [~klltkr@static-93.158.79.70.got.public.icomera.com] has joined #lisp 15:32:49 jfe: I forgot :adjustable t; it's better with it: http://paste.lisp.org/display/131830#1 15:35:11 kiuma [~kiuma@static-217-133-17-91.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 15:36:55 Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 15:37:11 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 15:37:37 jewel [~jewel@196-215-139-225.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:38:44 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 15:40:28 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 15:41:47 pskosinski [~pk@czu186.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 15:44:01 -!- xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.248.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 15:44:16 xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.248.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 15:44:28 -!- klltkr [~klltkr@static-93.158.79.70.got.public.icomera.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:44:44 -!- coldnew [~user@61-62-202-160-adsl-tpe.dynamic.so-net.net.tw] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:45:27 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 15:47:06 -!- brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-142-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:47:16 hello. I am using hunchentoot-uploads in clisp. and it seems like they are "re-encoded" in some strange way. which is - bad - when sending binary data. 15:47:33 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 15:48:00 the locale is de_DE.utf8 15:49:14 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-220-76.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:51:30 pjb: thanks for the tip 15:53:00 -!- kpal [~kpal@janus-nat-128-240-225-120.ncl.ac.uk] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 15:55:01 -!- dotemacs_ [uid801@id-801.hampstead.irccloud.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:55:01 -!- NimeshNeema [uid2689@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-qnbyezoynieqfkld] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:55:01 -!- SeanTAllen [u.4855@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ilavfxzqkhpongmt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:55:41 -!- oconnore [~eric@38.111.17.138] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:56:06 oconnore [~eric@38.111.17.138] has joined #lisp 15:57:48 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 15:59:17 add^_ [~add^_@m37-3-9-18.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 16:00:02 Bike [~Glossina@67-5-197-168.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 16:00:05 -!- alessio [~alessio@151.16.174.86] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:00:39 cryptic [~cryptic@pool-96-246-91-191.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:05:08 schoppenhauer: what do you mean by "hunchentoot-uploads"? 16:07:04 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:07:04 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-215-139-225.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:07:34 -!- Guest50086 [user@nat/google/x-pntgjoxmdfahekaq] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:08:45 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 16:09:44 snits [~snits@inet-hqmc09-o.oracle.com] has joined #lisp 16:09:46 H4ns: I use multipart/form-data, and try to handle an upload. but the file that is saved in hunchentoot's tmp-directory is not the same as the file that is sent 16:10:00 H4ns: it seems like it is recoded. 16:12:04 dotemacs_ [uid801@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-rkzaneaffbhwtmdi] has joined #lisp 16:12:26 NikolaiDante [~nikolaida@unaffiliated/knighterrant] has joined #lisp 16:12:34 ikki [~ikki@189.196.99.166] has joined #lisp 16:13:44 Guest50086 [user@nat/google/x-lgzsqzvokyndzjdr] has joined #lisp 16:17:02 anon119 [~bman@12.104.148.2] has joined #lisp 16:17:31 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:19:05 m7w [~chatzilla@178.172.204.246] has joined #lisp 16:19:30 pnpuff [~pnpuff@gateway/tor-sasl/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 16:22:20 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 16:23:17 -!- pnpuff [~pnpuff@gateway/tor-sasl/pnpuff] has left #lisp 16:25:01 ^pnpuff [~pnpuff@gateway/tor-sasl/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 16:29:43 -!- TristamWrk [~tristamwr@bodhilinux/team/Tristam] has quit [Quit: Some days you're the pigeon, some days the statue...] 16:30:08 Look, a CL message on GTK+ mailing list. Go Lisp. 16:30:11 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 273 seconds] 16:31:50 Uh, they sound a little unhappy. 16:32:00 didi: where ? 16:32:11 fe[nl]ix: Let me see if I can get a link. 16:32:14 Hold your pants! 16:32:43 fe[nl]ix: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gtk-list/2012-September/msg00008.html 16:32:55 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 16:33:07 tensorpudding [~michael@108.87.18.210] has joined #lisp 16:33:07 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:33:38 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:35:29 Um. Moving away from a threaded interface is a good thing? 16:36:01 Lisp relevance: minimal. 16:37:52 hrm .. when writing quite a bit to a string (via with-output-to-string), i'm seeing the resulting strings not being collected 16:38:09 (this isn't in the repl, so it's not * ** ***) 16:39:16 -!- bioh [~bioh@217.118.81.195] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:39:39 bioh [~bioh@217.118.81.195] has joined #lisp 16:40:41 -!- bioh [~bioh@217.118.81.195] has quit [Client Quit] 16:41:57 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:42:04 -!- abeaumont [~abeaumont@208.Red-79-148-144.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:42:05 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:43:09 -!- dotemacs_ [uid801@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-rkzaneaffbhwtmdi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:43:38 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 16:43:39 oGMo: tell me more 16:43:56 http://paste.lisp.org/display/131832 16:44:29 tested in CCL and it seems to work fine, heap stays relatively sane 16:46:50 TruthFairy [~juan@cpe-72-228-189-184.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:46:57 -!- NikolaiDante is now known as Nikolai|away 16:47:21 (trying to make a similarly-performant output to (vector (unsigned-byte 8) *) and was trying to use this as a benchmark) 16:49:19 foreignFunction [~niksaak@94.27.88.80] has joined #lisp 16:49:35 (simple-array (unsigned-byte 8) (*)) is the fast thing, usually 16:50:37 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:50:40 *sykopomp* wonders if it's cffi-grovel that's responsible for trying to compile with -m32 on ARM. 16:51:17 yeah that's what it actually is i guess .. unfortunately flexi-streams is very slow and making something even close to as fast as with-output-to-string is apparently nontrivial 16:51:38 sykopomp: It's possible. I uses -m64 deliberately here. 16:51:43 s/I/It 16:52:31 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.35.111] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:53:01 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 16:53:59 abeaumont [~abeaumont@208.Red-79-148-144.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 16:57:00 -!- hypnocat [~hypnocat@unaffiliated/hypnocat] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:58:53 https://github.com/cffi/cffi/blob/master/grovel/grovel.lisp#L251-254 There it is... 17:00:14 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:00:31 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 17:01:02 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 17:01:08 -!- slyrus_ [~chatzilla@99-27-206-179.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:01:44 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 17:02:53 sykopomp: it that -m32 incorrect in your case ? 17:02:53 Jeanne-Kamikaze [~Jeanne-Ka@47.81.76.188.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 17:03:04 fe[nl]ix: it should be -marm 17:03:17 a simple #+arm/#-arm seems to be doing the trick. Testing now. 17:03:25 What's the best way to get a copy of a vector that's one longer? Right now I'm doing (adjust-array (copy-seq original) (1+ (length original))) but I'm not sure it's actually conformant. 17:03:53 -!- stat_vi_ [~stat@dslb-094-218-018-155.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:04:08 dotemacs_ [uid801@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-zpzqqgyvzjcgkgvp] has joined #lisp 17:04:23 dmx [~dmx@adsl-67-121-157-253.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 17:04:29 -!- deleuz is now known as derrida 17:04:29 -!- derrida [~derrida-f@www.informalcode.com] has quit [Changing host] 17:04:30 derrida [~derrida-f@unaffiliated/deleuze] has joined #lisp 17:04:48 (ql:quickload 'linedit) works on ccl arm with that patch! Woo! 17:05:26 -!- Nikolai|away is now known as NikolaiDante 17:05:28 #+arm '("-marm") #-arm (ecase (cffi:foreign-type-size ..)) <-- that's all 17:05:43 Amadiro [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp0217.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 17:06:13 -!- df___ is now known as df_ 17:06:15 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:07:53 NimeshNeema [uid2689@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-gaqlibggszmwhbox] has joined #lisp 17:09:29 -!- KingsKnighted [~quassel@c-174-52-149-13.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:10:24 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:12:16 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 17:14:03 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 17:15:06 woudshoo [~user@ironhead.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 17:16:40 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.143.171] has joined #lisp 17:19:41 -!- dotemacs_ [uid801@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-zpzqqgyvzjcgkgvp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:19:47 -!- NimeshNeema [uid2689@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-gaqlibggszmwhbox] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:19:57 -!- paul0 [~paul0@201.86.64.32.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:20:06 mikaelj [~tic@c83-248-165-159.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 17:21:09 -!- ignas_ [~ignas@office.pov.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:21:24 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:23:17 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 17:26:33 -!- scharan [~scharan@169.235.25.47] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.7] 17:28:51 TristamWrk [~tristamwr@gray-29.dynamic2.rpi.edu] has joined #lisp 17:28:51 -!- TristamWrk [~tristamwr@gray-29.dynamic2.rpi.edu] has quit [Changing host] 17:28:51 TristamWrk [~tristamwr@bodhilinux/team/Tristam] has joined #lisp 17:29:13 -!- c_arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-vdaacequuyuzfekg] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:29:48 rk[idle21 [~karason@opensource.cse.ohio-state.edu] has joined #lisp 17:30:29 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:30:29 -!- tsuru [~charlie@adsl-74-179-31-225.bna.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:31:34 tsuru` [~charlie@adsl-98-87-51-23.bna.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 17:31:37 is there a method to convert S-exp to strings? 17:32:10 rk[idle21: print. 17:32:10 rk[idle21: many methods, one easy one is prin1-to-string 17:32:19 thank you 17:32:47 i am trying to pass an sexp to format so i can write to file, but it only accepts strings 17:33:15 rk[idle21: the control object must be a string, but the arguments can be anything. 17:33:24 e.g. (format stream "~S" '(foo bar baz)) 17:34:29 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 17:34:55 well, the control object doesn't *have* to be a string. 17:35:01 yates [~user@nc-71-54-138-0.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 17:35:33 i'm trying to install quicklisp under clisp/cygwin and am getting "UNIX error 11 (EWOULDBLOCK): Operation would block 17:36:00 yates: try again? 17:37:44 -!- NikolaiDante is now known as Nikolai|away 17:38:58 Xach: i wasn't aware that beating on software helps... 17:39:07 Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't. 17:39:15 it got me past that error 17:39:30 but now i'm getting 403 on the asdf.lisp file retrieval 17:39:43 does it work behind a proxy? 17:40:11 i can access that file via internet explorer just fine 17:40:26 yates: you have to set up the proxy 17:40:50 (quicklisp-quickstart:install :proxy "http://myproxy.site.com:8080/") 17:41:07 ah - thank you. 17:41:10 does MOP specify a way to register a function that gets called when the class is finalized? I'd like to redefine a method. 17:41:22 clisp + windows + proxy sounds a bit unpleasant :( 17:41:43 well, i was going to try to do some learning on lunch hour here at work... 17:41:48 *sykopomp* wonders what the state of clisp in arm is. 17:42:11 everything else is running pretty well here under win7/cygwin 17:42:17 surprisingly 17:42:24 flip214: define a method on finalize-inheritance? 17:42:26 yates: clozure works pretty well on windows too 17:42:46 is that different than clojure? 17:42:49 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 17:42:57 yates: quite. it's a native-compiling implementation of common lisp. 17:43:00 yes, clojure is a different language. clozure cl is a common lisp implementation. 17:43:15 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:43:21 what a difference a letter makes. 17:44:03 Bike: thenks, yes. 17:45:49 *thanks 17:45:49 Xach: done. 17:46:23 jjkola [~androirc@193-64-22-149-nat.elisa-mobile.fi] has joined #lisp 17:47:03 yates: hooray 17:47:25 yay for me 17:47:45 -!- [SLB] is now known as [SLB]` 17:47:49 anyone's using iolib ? 17:47:58 or which one is preferred ? 17:48:08 step 1a, paragraph 1, clause 0.0.1, subclause 1 in the "learn lisp" book 17:48:51 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 17:51:41 Xach... oh you can have vargs... :) 17:53:30 "teach a man to fish..." - how do i find the API functions of a package? (e.g., quicklisp)? 17:53:35 the run-ex3-server example is using blocking and does not return t when the client finishes..... 17:53:43 is that ok ? 17:53:56 yates: reading the manual is one way 17:54:05 dotemacs_ [uid801@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ywyydytysdlitgtr] has joined #lisp 17:54:36 yates: hopefully it has a manual, or some documentation, or something 17:54:40 i thought there was an interactive way 17:54:42 eldariof [~CLD@pppoe-200-225-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has joined #lisp 17:55:01 oh yeah - got it 17:55:05 yates: you can sort of explore things interactively but there's not much consistency 17:55:13 just type (ql: 17:55:36 qptain_Nemo [~qN@81-235-52-30-no79.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 17:55:43 does inaddr_any get bound to say port 9999 on any interface when it starts ? 17:55:48 you can seek out the author in an irc channel, too... 17:56:12 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:56:18 to non-cable interfaces too ? 17:56:26 Xach: is there a way to have quicklisp install slime for emacs? 17:56:54 yates: (ql:quickload 'quicklisp-slime-helper) and you should be started :) 17:57:08 yates: don't be scared, just follow the instructions 17:57:10 yates: yes. (ql:quickload "quicklisp-slime-helper") 17:57:34 slime is a client/server app too not ? 17:57:34 zolk3ri [~zolk3ri@catv-89-132-196-182.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 17:57:42 yates: however, there is one possible glitch on windows. if clisp does not agree with emacs about where your home directory is, it might require manual fixing. 17:58:06 ok, well we'll see how it goes - thanks for the heads up 18:01:39 -!- [SLB]` is now known as [SLB] 18:02:43 moore33 [~moore@ABordeaux-153-1-32-31.w92-149.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 18:03:34 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 18:03:42 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 18:04:13 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 18:05:48 (successp 'slime-install-under-cygwin-clisp) ==> t 18:06:06 hoorah, hoorah, hoorah. 18:06:35 -!- rk[idle21 [~karason@opensource.cse.ohio-state.edu] has left #lisp 18:06:42 yay 18:07:01 hello Xaxh 18:07:03 Xach 18:07:20 thank you, Xach 18:07:21 zolk3ri: what's up? 18:07:26 yates: no problem 18:07:38 nothing much, friend, what did you do today? 18:11:07 -!- eldariof [~CLD@pppoe-200-225-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:11:11 eldar [~CLD@pppoe-198-180-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has joined #lisp 18:12:38 -!- dmx [~dmx@adsl-67-121-157-253.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:12:57 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:13:30 <^pnpuff> Whiskey you're the Devil ^^ 18:13:44 dmx [~dmx@adsl-67-121-157-253.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 18:14:09 `fogus [~fogus@burke-matrex.d-a-s.com] has joined #lisp 18:15:00 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 18:19:19 asvil [~asvil@178.120.28.95] has joined #lisp 18:21:37 steffi_s [~marioooh@x-132-204-243-254.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 18:24:58 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 18:26:30 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 18:29:08 -!- woudshoo [~user@ironhead.xs4all.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:30:52 woudshoo [~user@ironhead.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 18:31:00 NimeshNeema [uid2689@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-lfikjwmgtgnnsucq] has joined #lisp 18:31:16 bitonic` [~user@027cae25.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 18:32:10 -!- bitonic [~user@vm-shell1.doc.ic.ac.uk] has quit [Disconnected by services] 18:32:10 Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 18:33:33 -!- VieiraN [~VieiraN@189-46-231-123.dsl.telesp.net.br] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:33:57 VieiraN [~VieiraN@189-46-231-123.dsl.telesp.net.br] has joined #lisp 18:35:30 Bike: I would rather do: (let ((v (make-array (1+ (length o))))) (replace v o) v) 18:35:50 Bike: but if you do that a lot, better use an adjustable array, with a fill pointer. 18:36:07 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:36:41 pjb: and how would that work? 18:36:59 -!- didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:37:17 (let ((v (make-array 8 :fill-pointer 0 :adjustable t))) (vector-push-extend 'item v) ) 18:37:18 -!- Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:37:46 You can also use (vector-push-extend 'item v (length v)) for conforming amortized O(log(n)) insertion. 18:38:02 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 18:38:08 And if you have a maximum size, then you can skip the :adjustable and use vector-push instead. 18:38:12 Where's the copy? 18:38:12 nha [~prefect@koln-4d0b58bc.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 18:38:47 No copy! That's the win. 18:38:47 -!- AlbireoX [~AlbireoX@76.78.168.37] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:39:42 In (let ((v (make-array (1+ (length o))))) (replace v o) v) replace does the copying. 18:39:59 But I want a copy. The program's just generating all strings from a DFA, so the result is like ("a" "ab" "ac"), they should be different strings. 18:40:05 -!- Nikolai|away [~nikolaida@unaffiliated/knighterrant] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 18:40:19 tfb [~tfb@a1.norwich.yourspac.nsdsl.net] has joined #lisp 18:40:25 Well vector-push-extend may call adjust-array when it extends the vector, and adjust-array may do copying. 18:40:34 killerboy [~mateusz@217.17.38.43] has joined #lisp 18:40:40 Bike: ok, so make-array + replace. 18:40:47 alright, thanks. 18:42:05 Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 18:42:14 slyrus_ [~chatzilla@173-228-44-92.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 18:42:20 Bike: you can also just use (concatenate 'string base (string new-character)) 18:42:37 or (list new-character) string probably conses more than a single cons cell 18:43:05 eldariof [~CLD@pppoe-211-60-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has joined #lisp 18:43:21 -!- moore33 [~moore@ABordeaux-153-1-32-31.w92-149.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:44:57 -!- bitonic` is now known as bitonic 18:45:29 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:45:44 -!- woudshoo [~user@ironhead.xs4all.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:47:06 AlbireoX [~AlbireoX@76.78.168.37] has joined #lisp 18:47:10 -!- eldar [~CLD@pppoe-198-180-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 18:48:04 -!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:49:56 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 18:56:49 -!- Praise- is now known as Praise 18:56:54 didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has joined #lisp 18:57:08 moore33 [~moore@ABordeaux-153-1-53-50.w81-49.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 18:58:28 dan64- [dan64@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:7dc0] has joined #lisp 18:58:28 -!- dan64- [dan64@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:7dc0] has quit [Excess Flood] 18:59:10 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:02:28 logand [~user@e178126094.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 19:06:28 bkring [~bkring@173-228-61-240.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 19:06:31 This is important -- http://jasonneylon.files.wordpress.com/2010/10/programmingvenndiagram.gif?w=860&h=900 19:07:41 -!- turbolen1 is now known as turbolent 19:07:47 -!- steffi_s [~marioooh@x-132-204-243-254.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 19:07:57 the hive mind has spoken 19:08:59 Beware the anus. 19:09:30 <^pnpuff> no one fuzzy venn? 19:10:15 the ruby one made me crack up 19:10:18 milanj [~milanj_@109.72.98.14] has joined #lisp 19:10:31 sykopomp: Is it safe? 19:10:44 -!- sambio [~cc@190.57.227.107] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:11:03 yeah, it's 100% safe. 19:11:16 Oh, nice. 19:12:27 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 19:14:58 steffi_s [~marioooh@x-132-204-243-254.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 19:15:18 ebobby [~fms@70-36-138-66.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 19:18:51 -!- moore33 [~moore@ABordeaux-153-1-53-50.w81-49.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:20:11 -!- steffi_s [~marioooh@x-132-204-243-254.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has quit [Quit: zzzz] 19:20:30 jjkola_ [~androirc@212-226-48-226-nat.elisa-mobile.fi] has joined #lisp 19:22:56 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 19:23:57 -!- vert2 [vert2@gateway/shell/bshellz.net/x-lojgtyqjzkdjktjr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:24:17 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 19:24:59 -!- jjkola [~androirc@193-64-22-149-nat.elisa-mobile.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 19:26:26 new lisp file elisp hook to insert defpackage/in-package: http://paste.lisp.org/display/131838 19:27:07 H4ns: hah 19:27:16 H4ns: I got cffi working on ccl :) 19:27:30 sykopomp: cool 19:28:37 antifuchs: i keep forgetting the in-package :) 19:28:43 ouch ((: 19:30:07 DDR [~chatzilla@d66-183-125-133.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 19:30:16 nydel [~nydel@ip72-197-235-21.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 19:31:06 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has quit [Quit: Close the world, Open the nExt] 19:31:41 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:31:44 vert2 [vert2@gateway/shell/bshellz.net/x-zksftyltflsjccdv] has joined #lisp 19:31:57 -!- tsuru` is now known as tsuru 19:32:31 [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has joined #lisp 19:33:14 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:33:59 you can have special kinds of asdf files, right? Maybe that can be abstracted away entirely so when you do package-per-file, the package name is implicit. :) 19:34:54 Silent [546f1fd0@gateway/web/freenode/ip.84.111.31.208] has joined #lisp 19:35:01 but meh, considering you want exports/imports, that's probably unnecessary... 19:35:18 Good day everyone 19:35:26 hello 19:35:41 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 19:36:02 -!- yates [~user@nc-71-54-138-0.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.0.96.1] 19:36:31 Does LISP have low-lever controls such as pointers and inline assembly, like C does? 19:36:40 -!- Guest53750 [~natch@c-1dcce155.25-4-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has left #lisp 19:36:45 Natch [~natch@c-1dcce155.25-4-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 19:37:00 Silent: "LISP" does not, Common Lisp as specified does not, Common Lisp implementations do. 19:37:03 implementation-dependently, yes, though it's probably not much like C's. 19:37:12 snearch [~snearch@f053008013.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 19:37:16 Hmm alright. 19:39:07 I've read that LISP *was* a good languahe for AI development. Is it still true for today, and why? 19:39:34 Common Lisp is a good language for writing programs in general. 19:39:53 People said that because of how easy it is to do symbolic computation in Lisp. AI research doesn't really use symbols so much any more, but luckily Lisp is still good for general programming. 19:40:08 It is not as good as other languages for reusing the work of thousands of other people, because there aren't as many people writing and sharing code. But it's pretty great for writing code and exploring problems. 19:40:26 Well, how is it better than say Java? 19:40:52 It's a different flavor then Java 19:41:31 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:41:34 So basically you're saying it's a matter of personal opinion. 19:41:40 programming languages don't have a single dimension of goodness 19:42:02 so better/worse is meaningless unless you specify at what 19:42:22 Silent: Lisp is prety good programming language in general. It's just that at the time the AI relationship comes from, there weren't many languages that gave stuff useful for then-prevalent symbolic AI 19:43:12 Well, I got very curious about AIs. I wanna develop an interactive program that I can talk with - much like a real person. Teach it things. 19:43:16 araujo [~araujo@190.73.45.171] has joined #lisp 19:43:16 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:43:16 -!- araujo [~araujo@190.73.45.171] has quit [Changing host] 19:43:16 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 19:43:47 Silent: you have a long way before you 19:43:49 Possibly easier to have/adopt a child, wait several years 19:43:53 Lost of places suggest LISP. However, others suggest against it claiming that it's old and there are better alternatives. 19:43:53 Silent: have a look at http://act-r.psy.cmu.edu/ and http://delph-in.net 19:43:55 a lot of people have wanted to do that for a long time. It turns out to be hard 19:44:09 Silent: you want AI research, not a programming language. 19:44:15 Well I do not expect it to be easy 19:44:22 language is pretty much less relevant 19:44:25 Silent: LISP is old. Common Lisp (or Lisp for friends) is not so old. 19:44:26 Bike Yes 19:44:45 you'll be boggled down in NLP, KR/KBE, etc. 19:44:58 Silent: but the point is that: http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/small-cl-pgms/wang.html 19:45:15 ie. old is good. 19:45:17 Silent: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMOmB1q8W4Y 19:45:19 Silent: the language isn't any more relevant than it would be for any other programming project, is what I mean 19:46:08 " Rendez-vous in 36 years to see how you can run a 1996 perl program in perl 2042..." Haha! 19:46:56 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 19:48:20 Still, I will need a programming language to work with. 19:49:49 <^pnpuff> whitout the telescope rule? 19:50:08 Huh? 19:50:33 Silent: I hear Lisp is pretty good for programming. If you google "practical common lisp" you can get a free book for learning it, too. 19:51:51 Yes I stumped across this book before I came here. The problem is what I hear here is not what I've read at Google, so it's possible that LISP isn't what I think it is. 19:52:00 Silent: or look at http://cliki.net it gives all the links. 19:52:05 It's not a magic bullet for AI, that's for sure 19:52:16 pjb Thanks 19:52:31 eldar [~CLD@pppoe-222-92-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has joined #lisp 19:52:45 Bike Well you see, that's exactly what I'm talking about. I got the impression that it kinda is. 19:53:03 But I'll read a bit in the link and come back. 19:53:04 Silent: read PAIP. 19:53:08 Paradigms of Artificial Intelligence Programming: Case Studies in Common Lisp 19:53:12 +1 19:53:26 Will do. 19:53:50 -!- _d3f [~d3f@nl1.ovpn.to] has quit [Quit: _d3f] 19:53:55 <^pnpuff> lisp is! 19:54:01 SeanTAllen [uid4855@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-kzffteyoqolicbon] has joined #lisp 19:54:12 Silent: AI is hard. Sorry. 19:54:31 Apparently :\ 19:55:18 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:55:37 But lisp can help. For example, you could give a description of an ANN in sexp form and write in lisp a compiler to generate the cuda code to run it on your GPU. 19:55:39 Silent: Are you aware of Eliza? 19:55:54 -!- eldariof [~CLD@pppoe-211-60-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:56:11 I am now. 19:56:47 Well Watson and Siri are the modern versions of Eliza. 19:57:18 Silent: Also shaney , so you can see how you can fool yourself. 19:57:27 Silent: basically, in the past, AI researchers thought they could make AI using (only) simple symbolic reasoning, like predicate logic. That's really easy to do in Lisp (see for instance pjb's wang.job), and eventually Lisp got a reputation. Nowadays AI researches have different ideas. 19:57:45 AI is Statistics nowadays. 19:58:10 <^pnpuff> not only ai :) 19:58:11 Not only statistics, but yeah. A while ago I ran into an animat that happened to be programmed using lisp, that was cool. 19:58:13 Which can be done with lisp as well. See Maxima and as I said, custom compilers to GPUs etc. 19:58:28 Sounds like I should read theory before I chose a language. 19:58:44 Silent: choose a language you like. 19:59:01 If you want to learn how to make AI, learn AI, don't just leMonty Python - Lion Tamer 19:59:04 er. 19:59:41 Haha :) 20:01:00 -!- mucker [~mucker@183.83.240.198] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:01:03 But I mean, if you wanted to learn banking, you'd learn banking. Maybe part of that would be learning how to write banking applications, but it's bankig you're learning. 20:01:32 I suppose that makes sense now. 20:02:35 Silent: What languages are you familiar with? 20:02:57 <^pnpuff> SelfOrganizingMind :) 20:03:01 Silent: Regardless of your intentions though, Lisp is pretty awesome. 20:03:33 I feel most comfortable with C, but I also have experience with Java, C#, VB and some web programming. 20:04:02 Silent: You will feel a little alien to Lisp. 20:04:17 Silent: Lisp will be alien, but it might be a good place to expand your horizons greatly 20:04:20 Yes, the source is weird. 20:04:40 Weirdness is irrelevant. You will be assimilated. 20:04:44 <^pnpuff> aAlien it'a a great! :) 20:04:48 Silent: like pjb mentioned, PAIP is good for learning the old techniques, and works pretty well for learning Lisp too. And the same author later cowrote http://aima.cs.berkeley.edu/ for more modern techniques. 20:04:52 http://www.indiegogo.com/SBCL-Threading-Improvements-1?c=activity 20:05:00 Between parenthesis. (Silent) 20:05:02 It's always fun to learn something new though. 20:05:39 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.143.171] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:05:40 Silent: well, except for some bits of new stuff in C#, Lisp would be first language to "break the mold" from the list 20:06:08 I see 20:07:17 -!- jjkola_ is now known as jjkola 20:07:24 -!- eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 20:07:37 -!- francisl [~flavoie@199.84.164.114] has quit [Quit: francisl] 20:09:27 Silent: so even if you won't use Lisp later on, it will be a great learning opportunity 20:09:35 beware of getting soured on some languages : 20:10:05 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 20:10:32 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 20:10:48 Lisp kinda ruined me for most other PL's. 20:11:13 How ruined? 20:11:32 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 20:11:46 Silent: You'll never accept the lack of closures anymore. 20:11:54 -!- eldar [~CLD@pppoe-222-92-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has quit [] 20:11:59 Joreji [~thomas@85-127.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 20:12:04 Ah 20:12:28 Yes, since Lisp is the best programming language, it ruins you. 20:12:50 Just like eating at La Tour d'Argent will ruin you: you won't be able to eat at McDonald's ever after. 20:12:54 That, or you'll be better able to develop useful programs than before. 20:13:03 antgreen [~user@216.113.92.2] has joined #lisp 20:13:09 People get extremely excited when they add a feature to their language they've wanted for years, and it can be added to lisp with a macro in a few minutes. 20:14:01 So why not stick with LISP? If it's so great, I can't see the problem. 20:14:17 postfuturist: I'd like dependent typing, even just DML's restricted form. How many minutes do you think that'll take? 20:14:19 Jobs. 20:14:21 sambio [~cc@190.57.227.107] has joined #lisp 20:14:36 -!- `fogus is now known as `fogus|away 20:14:39 oh, not all features work that way, certainly 20:14:56 Darn, jobs. 20:15:05 Silent: it's the Neo paradox: you become so good at programming, that you don't need to do it anymore. (and just can't). 20:15:18 So easy to forget about jobs... 20:15:47 ... I'm doing PHP and Java in my next job, so... 20:15:54 I feel like I'm hopping from side to side too much, and not getting good at anything. 20:16:58 pkhuong: hey, you just described why I've (temporarily?) departed from lisp! ^^ 20:17:27 Silent: breadth of experience is valuable in dev work. 20:17:45 Silent: program in php by the day to pay the rent, program in lisp by the night to restore your sanity. 20:17:45 20:18:35 CL is missing a few things I would like, too, like lightweight threads. 20:18:44 By the way, does self-teaching count in the programming industry? I hear lost of people say that I must have some sort of certificate to show what I know. Can't I just present past projects? 20:19:29 Silent: certificates are more of lockpicks to deal with HR 20:19:44 "And never, ever, trust a man who wants, at all costs, to see your backflip degree instead of your backflip" -- tim daly 20:19:48 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 20:19:50 ^ 20:20:16 OTOH, the training courses for certifications are useful, especially for stuff you can't get access to yourself (that's more of sysadmin side, though) 20:20:17 What if I have so backflip degree? 20:20:25 -!- s0ber [~s0ber@114-36-224-63.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:20:25 -!- antgreen [~user@216.113.92.2] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:20:29 no* 20:20:37 Silent: in my limited experience (three internships) people are much more interested in your portfolio and interview response than your formal quals. 20:20:57 That's a relief. 20:21:06 Silent: some jobs you won't get without a degree. some you can, if you can demonstrate that you have the qualifications by past job and by interview skills. 20:21:15 Silent: if you have no CS degree, you will not be able to get many good jobs, but there are many other good jobs that are still open to you. 20:21:41 postfuturist: those may just not be worth the trouble, although they're becoming popular in some newer languages. 20:21:46 I'm askinf because I'm very interested in programming in general, but I'm pretty bad at school. That means I might not do well enough to get a good degree. 20:21:48 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 20:21:53 On the other hand, if you're good, you can get a good job without a degree. Don't stress about that. 20:21:54 to my knowledge, you won't particularly miss out. 20:22:22 s0ber [~s0ber@114-36-242-234.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 20:22:38 Silent: be your own boss. Find customers, write programs in whatever language you want and with whatever technology you want. Sell your program to your customers. 20:22:51 this is very hard. 20:23:21 Write programs for the AppStore, barrier of entry is low. 20:23:26 -!- Fullmoon [~Fullmoon@h081217030118.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Quit: Fullmoon] 20:23:32 sykopomp: Lightweight threads make it a lot easier to write a certain class of server apps, like the ones I write for a living. 20:23:39 postfuturist: well, technically, lightweight threading isn't part of what CL the standard has to work on 20:24:06 postfuturist: you can take a free implementation and add lightweight threads to it. 20:24:12 I'd like a portable coroutine library, though 20:24:18 kind of like CPS transformers 20:24:38 pjb: I've thought about it, certainly. 20:25:07 p_l: take MIT loop, convert the tagbody mess to tailcalls, win. 20:25:15 well, there's cl-cont, but that's kind of a mess. 20:26:07 There's always LFE. 20:26:21 postfuturist: well, in Erlang, those servers are basically state machines or event-based. 20:26:48 pkhuong: not just loop 20:26:51 so there's not that much gain, ease-of-programming-wise. 20:27:27 ChibaPet: gross. 20:27:37 well, with Erlang a lot of the power comes (IMHO) from OTP 20:27:59 the vast majority of it does. 20:27:59 that is, people from outside erlang talk about threading, people using Erlang talk about OTP :) 20:28:10 Today, if I wanted to write what I'm writing in CL, I'd need to manage my own event loop, and tie in all I/O related activities, like communicating via various types of servers, databases, etc, into that loop. 20:28:30 <^pnpuff> Silent: : http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?FirstTimeLanguage ( this could be helpful. Happy lisp! :) 20:28:42 postfuturist: or you could implement your own system for doing what Erlang does 20:28:47 including supervision and the like 20:28:59 p_l: if the green threads are for state machine -level control flow, a looping macro seems to hit a sweet spot. Plus, LOOP is standard and well known. 20:29:07 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:29:11 *didi* don't like the threading abstraction 20:29:12 Thank you 20:29:14 Very messy. 20:29:24 s/don't/doesn't 20:29:27 postfuturist: iolib is a thing 20:29:34 -!- rtoym [~chatzilla@24.130.4.105] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:29:38 iolib is real thing! 20:29:41 Have a look at com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.activity. 20:30:03 pkhuong: well, I was thinking of abstracting the loop out, and combine CPS techniques with some extra bits to have small, lightweight tasks 20:30:15 Ralith: iolib is insufficient. 20:30:23 in what way ? 20:30:32 sykopomp: lisp is insufficient 20:30:41 supervision trees and inter-handler communication. 20:30:58 basically, iolib is one step lower than what you want for an OTP-style application. 20:31:13 but it can be used to implement the i/o backend with ease. 20:31:22 question: lets say I am using IOLib, and I want to make calls to PostgreSQL using the Postmodern library... those I/O calls need to be managed by IOLib's event loop. How do I do that? 20:31:24 in fact, programming is insufficient 20:31:26 (let's go shopping) 20:31:38 postfuturist: patch postmodern! 20:31:39 Prefers barbecueing. 20:31:48 <^pnpuff> :) 20:31:59 postfuturist: pomo needs async support for that. 20:32:29 Ralith: exactly, I have to patch every library I use to tie into whatever async I/O library I want to use.... sigh 20:32:51 that's life 20:32:56 nah, just some of the main ones. 20:33:09 it's not so bad, and you can extend pomo to support it, imo. 20:33:13 or patch I/O primitives to yield thread instead of blocking 20:33:18 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 20:33:24 I'm going to have to, anyway, since I'm planning on doing just that with an app I'm working on. 20:33:30 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:34:51 postfuturist: an option would be to use stubs matching closely C libpq calls, as well as ones matching closely libevent, as libpq can provide an fd for polling... unfortunately that probably means initial work 20:35:44 Python solved it with gevent, a library that patches Pythons built-in socket library to use it's event loop / green thread implementation. With gevent in Python, any python library that uses the built-in socket library automatically works with gevent. 20:36:57 postfuturist: I've been thinking of doing something like that (i.e. load iolib before usocket, get usocket-compatible interfaces that go through iolib) 20:37:24 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:39:06 p_l: interesting, I've been wondering if something like that could be done, I'm not really a low-level socket programmer... kinda out of my league. 20:39:53 p_l: what happens when you (read *blocking-stream*)? 20:40:40 postfuturist: in CL you don't even need to patch the CL implementation to do things like that. 20:40:51 All you have to do is to define another package and use it instead of CL! 20:43:17 that won't help you with library code, unfortunately. 20:43:48 Sure it does. s/CL/MYCL/ in the defpackage. 20:43:50 -!- ^pnpuff [~pnpuff@gateway/tor-sasl/pnpuff] has quit [Quit: .] 20:43:59 Or even without changing the source, with tricks like in IBCL. 20:44:09 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:44:18 as long as the source uses defpackage, not cl:defpackage. 20:45:00 -!- blackwol` [~blackwolf@ool-4575fc51.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:45:09 blackwol` [~blackwolf@ool-4575fc51.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 20:46:40 -!- snits [~snits@inet-hqmc09-o.oracle.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:47:11 justinmcp [~justinmcp@ppp118-208-3-7.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 20:47:24 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 20:49:12 PostgreSQL exports async querying at the protocol level I think 20:49:41 http://www.postgresql.org/docs/9.2/static/protocol-flow.html#PROTOCOL-ASYNC 20:49:42 CampinSam [~user@24-176-98-217.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has joined #lisp 20:49:50 p_l, postfuturist, see iolib.usocket http://src.knowledgetools.de/tomas/winapi/index.html 20:50:39 dim: that's different 20:50:53 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 20:50:58 I don't know I just read async and pomo in the backlog and fired 20:51:12 dim: the async issue here is to handle responses for long-running queries (or any queries, actually) 20:51:40 this async stuff, I believe, is more for things like notifications. 20:52:04 you can also send in a query and come back later to fetch its results 20:52:12 whereas pomo support for async socket connection would involve firing off a query request, returning immediately, and running some code later when postgres gets back to us with the query results. 20:52:17 for your use case at hand though I would simple use a cursor 20:52:35 kmels [~kmels@HSI-KBW-078-043-223-122.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 20:52:37 the resultset is materialized as-you-go on the server and you use FETCH to retrieve as many rows as you want per loop 20:52:42 pomo has support for that 20:52:55 no, that's not the issue. It's more about waiting for network operations. 20:53:01 you need to use a lower level API IIRC 20:53:35 yes, it needs to be supported by the library itself, whatever communicates with the postgres server. 20:53:42 oh then that's another thing, while you're receiving the results I don't think the PostgreSQL protocol cares about client-side being async 20:53:47 logand: that looks interesting, the iolib.usocket part 20:54:59 -!- m7w [~chatzilla@178.172.204.246] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:55:43 -!- milanj [~milanj_@109.72.98.14] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:57:04 sykopomp: your adaptation of pomo, will that be open sourced? 20:57:25 I open source everything I'm allowed to, but don't get your hopes up. 20:57:47 my OTP clone is already open sourced, but it's a big WIP that seems more like a proof-of-concept than anything else right now. 20:58:01 still, having 1mil+ 'actors' in Lisp is pretty fun :) 20:58:14 link? 20:58:29 it's on my github 20:58:31 I have find memories of the Erlang OTP model 20:58:56 -!- dnm_ [~dnm@li97-254.members.linode.com] has left #lisp 20:59:24 is it https://github.com/sykopomp/chanl ? 20:59:41 no 20:59:54 https://github.com/sykopomp/memento-mori 21:00:06 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 21:01:18 https://github.com/sykopomp/memento-mori/blob/develop/example/misc.lisp#L23-42 this is my current tormentor. I'm trying to figure out what a good way to handle call-and-response is. :( 21:01:55 I will have to try that I think 21:02:02 eni [~eni@82.230.88.217] has joined #lisp 21:02:10 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 21:02:12 snits [~snits@inet-hqmc06-o.oracle.com] has joined #lisp 21:02:13 milanj [~milanj_@109.72.98.14] has joined #lisp 21:03:26 spawn creates an thread as in bordeaux-threads, most likely an OS thread? 21:03:37 no 21:04:00 spawn creates an actor. It responds to events, instead of running until a function completes. 21:04:09 you can spawn millions of them 21:04:41 ok, like Erlang threads are not OS threads, in a way, I guess 21:04:43 there are N real threads working in the background on which the actors are scheduled 21:04:55 ok that's the scheduler size then, this N 21:05:09 yes 21:05:21 antonv [2e35c344@gateway/web/freenode/ip.46.53.195.68] has joined #lisp 21:05:24 (defparameter *scheduler* (mori:make-threaded-scheduler 6)) -> 6 threads in parallel executing whatever number of actors 21:05:35 yes 21:05:39 scheduled 'fairly' 21:06:26 so you implemented a mailbox where to send messages, with the actor ID, the scheduler knows which thread is hosting the actor and deliver messages in order... who tracks the states, the actor themselves? 21:06:59 the code for an actor can execute in whatever thread is available at the time when it receives a message. 21:07:01 that's the gen_fsm part of OTP, right? or the gen_server maybe with the exported functions as the messages/patterns to match 21:07:15 Good night everyone. 21:07:17 the actors here are all basically gen_server 21:07:18 -!- Silent [546f1fd0@gateway/web/freenode/ip.84.111.31.208] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 21:07:25 so the scheduler as its own thread to manage the "mailbox"? 21:07:44 no, there's no scheduler thread 21:07:56 so, how do you know a message has been received? 21:08:02 unless I forgot how my own code works. 21:08:06 hehe 21:08:09 they wait on a condition variable that gets notified. 21:08:16 mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-66-73-241.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:08:16 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 21:08:21 it's just 6 threads consuming from a single queue right now 21:08:27 a queue of actors that are 'executable' 21:08:51 Looks awesome. I don't really understand the patterns of using actors to build services. Maybe I need a book on Erlang. 21:09:16 sykopomp: you say: "you will eventually crash, and thus the best way to keep a system running is to try to limit the damage and recover." 21:09:19 -!- snearch [~snearch@f053008013.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 21:09:33 could you give a hing, or example, how to limit the damage and recover 21:09:43 crash as early as possible on bad data 21:09:46 or what help memento-mori give on that 21:10:08 if you get bad data, you die, log something, and then a supervisor restarts the thing that dies 21:10:16 and you keep going if it makes sense to, at that level. 21:10:46 the message caused my deatth 21:10:55 yes 21:10:58 does it remain in the queue? 21:11:06 no, the actor is gone 21:11:13 so are all the messages that were in its queue. 21:11:15 you're restarted in the same state you died, and get the same message again, in the Erlang gen_server model, IIRC 21:11:24 no, you don't restart the same actor 21:11:30 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 21:11:33 you throw away the actor and put a new one in its place, with fresh state. 21:11:34 -!- justinmcp [~justinmcp@ppp118-208-3-7.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:11:46 naiv_ [~quassel@AAnnecy-552-1-348-129.w90-41.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 21:11:46 -!- naiv [~quassel@AAnnecy-552-1-405-166.w86-200.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:11:49 sorry the code is restarted in a new actor that gets initialized with the state of the one which died 21:11:52 that's all, just reject any bad data? 21:12:00 that's what I remember Erlang does 21:12:04 it depends. 21:13:30 sometimes you try resending the message a few times until you give up, sometimes you log a message, throw the bad data away and keep going, and sometimes you explode, log the crash, lose the data, and hope it doesn't happen again (and if it happens again too many times, you bring out the supervision tree) 21:14:15 sykopomp: do you have an example or limiting the damage in this approach, comaring to other approaches? 21:14:54 I remember about maxT/maxR for that 21:14:55 antonv: in Erlang, lots of it, and all proprietary :) 21:15:00 -!- milanj [~milanj_@109.72.98.14] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:15:01 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:15:39 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:15:56 antonv: there's papers out there about the approach, but I haven't done any studies myself. 21:15:58 justicefries [~justicefr@50-76-131-66-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 21:16:52 how the approach is called? 21:17:00 let it crash 21:17:12 ^ 21:18:00 ah, yes, I see some information about that, thanks 21:18:43 sykopomp: did you try https://github.com/rvirding/lfe? 21:19:06 no, I'm not interested in lfe. 21:19:28 you prefer to implement Erlang parts in CL rather than implement Lisp in Erlang? 21:19:43 lfe doesn't really provide me with most of the things I like about Lisp. 21:19:54 milanj [~milanj_@109.72.98.14] has joined #lisp 21:20:22 well I know of a great app in Erlang which setup is in XML and provides a scripting language 21:20:22 so yes, I would rather do it that way. Lisp is a bit more amenable to having foreign ideas shoved into it. 21:20:25 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 21:20:34 I think it would be better served with a lisp there 21:21:58 DaDaDOSPrompt [~DaDaDOSPr@75-164-248-214.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 21:22:33 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-220-76.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:24:24 moore33 [~moore@ABordeaux-153-1-53-50.w81-49.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 21:26:09 -!- asvil [~asvil@178.120.28.95] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:26:43 -!- antonv [2e35c344@gateway/web/freenode/ip.46.53.195.68] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 21:28:06 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-220-76.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 21:28:43 kennyd [~kennyd@31.45.222.129] has joined #lisp 21:29:18 fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-68-174-154-238.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:30:05 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:32:02 lggr 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[~slabua@host57-169-dynamic.23-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Changing host] 22:43:12 [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has joined #lisp 22:43:33 ltbarcly2 [~ltbarcly@pool-71-116-78-211.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:43:36 -!- p_l [~pl@tsugumi.brage.info] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:43:52 is there some way to define a lexical variable without using LET or LET* 22:44:06 using lambda. 22:44:24 including defmacro, defun, defgeneric, defmethod. 22:44:25 -!- larches [~larches@99-126-183-26.lightspeed.mdsnwi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Bye] 22:44:25 i wouldn't know... 22:44:26 p_l [~pl@tsugumi.brage.info] has joined #lisp 22:44:37 ((lambda (lexical) (1+ lexical)) 42) 22:44:47 -!- p_l [~pl@tsugumi.brage.info] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:44:48 he meant without let 22:44:55 Is there are let here? 22:45:04 maybe he meant without implict lets 22:45:06 (defun f (lexical) (* lexical 2)) (f 42) 22:45:29 No, he wrote "without using LET", not "without implict lets". 22:45:43 I guess the problem is that lisp doesn't have implicit scoping rules, so without a let it would be unclear where a variable should stop existing? 22:45:48 ah 22:46:14 so lambda (lexical) is lexical because of lambda's lifetime.... 22:46:29 the backstory is I'm writing a DSL that compiles to CL, and I want to have a kind of block scope in the dsl 22:46:29 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:46:55 but that means that I have to figure out all my scoping in the DSL and use LET, which means my compiler has to know a lot more about what is going on 22:47:05 -!- kmels [~kmels@HSI-KBW-078-043-223-122.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 22:47:05 ltbarcly2: javascript puts all the variable declarations (without assigning values) at the top. perhaps you can do something similar. 22:47:09 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:47:21 yea, that is one thing I have considered 22:47:23 ltbarcly2: read: http://home.pipeline.com/~hbaker1/MetaCircular.html 22:47:24 ltbarcly2: then again, javascript has undefined 22:47:36 -!- DaDaDOSPrompt [~DaDaDOSPr@75-164-248-214.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:47:42 yea, the existence of undefined is not awesome 22:48:14 ltbarcly2: and it can also be useful to read LiSP Lisp in Small Pieces http://pagesperso-systeme.lip6.fr/Christian.Queinnec/WWW/LiSP.html http://pagesperso-systeme.lip6.fr/Christian.Queinnec/Books/LiSP-2ndEdition-2006Dec11.tgz 22:48:31 DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@1.136.34.249] has joined #lisp 22:48:45 basically the cleanest solution that I can come up with is to just drop in a LET wherever a new variable is created, and keep track of my own scope rules so I can close out the LET in the appropriate place. 22:49:04 the generated code will be ugly as sin, but there doesn't seem to be a cleaner solution 22:49:28 superflit_ [~superflit@67-40-130-50.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 22:50:07 p_l [~pl@tsugumi.brage.info] has joined #lisp 22:50:24 -!- p_l [~pl@tsugumi.brage.info] has left #lisp 22:50:44 -!- superflit [~superflit@65-128-54-38.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:50:44 -!- superflit_ is now known as superflit 22:50:47 ltbarcly2: then your source code must be ugly as sin. 22:50:55 clean up your source DSL! 22:51:19 my point is that if you had in the dsl: 22:51:34 x = 1 22:51:34 print(x) 22:51:34 y = 2 22:51:34 print(y) 22:52:09 p_l_ [~pl@tsugumi.brage.info] has joined #lisp 22:52:19 -!- tfb [~tfb@a1.norwich.yourspac.nsdsl.net] has quit [Quit: sleeping] 22:52:22 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:52:24 So you have a syntactic tree like: (progn (= x 1) (print x) (= y 2) (print y)) and you need to transform it as (progn (let ((x 1)) (print x) (let ((y 2)) (print y)))). 22:52:52 then you would end up with: 22:52:53 (let ((x 1)) (print x) (let ((y 2)) (printy))) 22:52:55 yea, exactly 22:52:55 Doesn't sound too ugly. Just use `(let ((,var ,init)) ,@(translate (rest body))) 22:53:28 it just forces me to keep track of my own scoping, which I didn't anticipate, but I see that there is no other way 22:53:38 -!- bkring [~bkring@173-228-61-240.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:53:52 I don't see why, it's automatic with the parentheses in: `(let ((,var ,init)) ,@(translate (rest body))) 22:53:59 -!- p_l_ is now known as p_l 22:54:33 ahh, I guess it's just a question of knowing where body ends 22:54:45 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 22:54:50 ltbarcly2: and the Dragon Book too. 22:55:07 Just write a parser to produce the syntactic tree:(progn (= x 1) (print x) (= y 2) (print y)) It's obvious where body ends! 22:55:08 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-5f75fb44.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:55:44 oh, it's obvious where that ends, but for example I have to count how many lets have been done at each scope as I write it out 22:55:48 ltbarcly2: did you read my last cll article about writing a byte code compiler? 22:55:54 no 22:56:07 ltbarcly2: No, you just write out the result with PRINT. 22:56:16 (print `(let ((,var ,init)) ,@(translate (rest body)))) 22:57:03 ahh, for that I'll have to be generating the code in CL, and before that happens I'll have to have my DSL bootstrapped :) 22:57:05 ltbarcly2: https://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/browse_frm/thread/40c6a489b6186518 22:58:06 bitonic [~user@027cae25.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 22:58:10 For the parsing you can use a parser generator. 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