00:01:23 you know you're reading a classic paper when switching to a bit-vector representation reduces memory usage by a factor of ... 36 (: 00:03:37 heh 00:04:06 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-39-135.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 00:10:26 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 00:11:00 -!- Bike [~Glossina@65-102-7-180.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:11:56 Bike [~Glossina@65-102-7-180.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 00:14:13 -!- snits [~snits@inet-hqmc05-o.oracle.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:17:47 rootlocus [~rootlocus@124-149-121-174.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 00:17:57 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:19:03 -!- tiripamwe [~tiripamwe@41.221.159.84] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:19:56 snits [~snits@inet-hqmc09-o.oracle.com] has joined #lisp 00:20:28 -!- kmels [~kmels@HSI-KBW-078-043-223-122.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:30:39 -!- snits [~snits@inet-hqmc09-o.oracle.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:32:11 pkhuong: you can still use 36-bit computers today. Try: ssh demo@dahmer.vistech.net 00:36:51 snits [~snits@inet-hqmc09-o.oracle.com] has joined #lisp 00:37:34 steffi_s [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1168074916.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 00:39:49 pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has joined #lisp 00:40:04 Bacteria [~Bacteria@115-64-180-132.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 00:40:31 replore [~replore@FLH1Ahd118.kng.mesh.ad.jp] has joined #lisp 00:42:03 -!- bitonic [~user@027cae25.bb.sky.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:44:56 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 00:45:34 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.196.98.143] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:47:54 -!- xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.132.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:52:54 -!- Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-96-255-130-43.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 00:54:47 -!- iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 00:55:26 tensorpudding [~michael@108.87.18.210] has joined #lisp 00:56:17 -!- noiy [~user@h-72-33.a146.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:56:26 -!- rootlocus [~rootlocus@124-149-121-174.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:57:55 -!- tensorpudding_ [~michael@108.87.22.88] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:58:43 Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-96-255-130-43.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:02:36 -!- replore [~replore@FLH1Ahd118.kng.mesh.ad.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:04:46 -!- Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-96-255-130-43.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:07:19 tali713 [~user@64.196.22.19] has joined #lisp 01:09:11 Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-96-255-130-43.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:09:16 Yuuhi`` [benni@p5483B517.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 01:11:27 -!- Yuuhi` [benni@p5483BACB.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:12:00 -!- tiglog [~topeak@106.3.63.150] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:17:15 longlene [~loong0@112.3.253.27] has joined #lisp 01:20:44 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-76-254-22-206.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:21:14 -!- tali713 [~user@64.196.22.19] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:21:59 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-24-221-134.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:22:23 tali713 [~user@64.196.22.19] has joined #lisp 01:23:11 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:25:11 poindontcare [~user@173-228-88-191.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 01:27:09 -!- dmx` [~dmx@adsl-67-121-157-253.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:34:33 -!- brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-142-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:37:56 -!- axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-88-224.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8] 01:45:29 -!- gffa [~unknown@unaffiliated/gffa] has quit [Quit: sleep] 01:51:43 prxq_ [~mommer@mnhm-4d010663.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 01:54:01 justinmcp [~justinmcp@ppp118-208-3-7.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 01:55:39 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-590c1bb5.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:58:21 -!- quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 02:00:42 SVS__ [~SVS@168-103-108-61.albq.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 02:02:08 -!- SVS_ [~SVS@104-252-AGAVEBB-NM.abq.nm.agavebb.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 02:04:43 -!- agumonkey [~agu@235.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 02:06:04 bjorkintosh [~bjork@ip68-13-229-200.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 02:07:09 -!- poindontcare [~user@173-228-88-191.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:13:37 Is it possible to create a method that dispatches based on a boolean value? 02:14:01 Sure. 02:14:29 pjb: How? It complains about (defmethod foo ((value boolean)) ...) 02:14:37 (defgeneric m (self) (:method ((true t)) t) (:method ((false null)) nil)) 02:14:45 boolean is not a class. 02:14:50 T and NULL are classes. 02:15:10 Now those methods dispatch on generalized boolean. If you want BOOLEAN: 02:15:17 (defgeneric m (self) (:method ((true (eql t))) t) (:method ((false null)) nil)) 02:15:17 didi: boolean isn't a class. 02:15:49 but seriously, just use generalized booleans 02:16:52 -!- tali713 [~user@64.196.22.19] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 02:17:02 pjb: Thank you, I'll use it. 02:17:11 sykopomp: what is a "generalized boolean"? 02:17:36 didi: everything is truthy except the empty list. 02:17:41 sykopomp: oic 02:18:05 that's how things in CL usually treat true/false things. 02:18:20 -!- antonv [5d7d31f9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.49.249] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:18:24 so specifically checking for t vs nil is usually code smell. 02:19:41 sykopomp: Hum, I'm dispatching to different foreign calls based on arguments, so I need something to know when call it with :boolean. 02:20:18 (defmethod m ((type (eql :boolean))) ) 02:21:13 pocket [~masato@113.36.199.254] has joined #lisp 02:22:12 pjb: Almost that. I'm doing things like (defmethod m ((value string)) ...) (defmethod m ((value single-float))) and so on. 02:22:57 Is there any way to hook on quitting repl? 02:23:26 I want to ask to user to save current-image or not..etc. 02:23:27 (defmethod m ((type (eql :boolean)) value) ) (defmethod m ((type (eql :c-string)) (value string)) ) (defmethod m ((type (eql :c-string)) (value vector)) ) 02:23:49 pocket: implementation dependant. 02:23:57 It may be possible. 02:24:03 Or you could write your own repl. 02:24:35 Hmm.. 02:25:05 http://paste.lisp.org/display/18280 and add a unwind-protect to ask saving the image in the cleanup. 02:25:41 quazimodo [~quazimodo@c122-106-147-75.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 02:25:57 didi: how does that work with integer types? 02:26:06 WOW thank you very much :-) 02:26:28 (defmethod m ((type (eql :uint8)) (value integer)) ) (defmethod m ((type (eql :int16)) (value integer)) )  02:27:15 pkhuong: That's a good question. I just use (value integer). 02:27:35 coldnew [~user@61-62-7-123-adsl-tpe.dynamic.so-net.net.tw] has joined #lisp 02:27:37 so you can't distinguish char from int32 from uint64 02:27:57 Interesting... 02:28:36 In languages like C, the type is outside of the values. So in lisp you have to keep it that way, or you're forgetting the C types. 02:28:50 or have a wrapper. 02:29:17 notice how with cffi you always have to give the type of the things, because it uses unwrapped pointers. (memref ptr :int) 02:30:24 pjb: I see. I think I can come up with something nice using your (type (eql :foo)). 02:31:13 teggi [~teggi@123.20.26.103] has joined #lisp 02:32:12 robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:38:06 -!- CampinSa` is now known as CampinSam 02:38:22 -!- gurrag [~gurrag@unaffiliated/gurrag] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:40:51 tali713 [~user@64.196.22.19] has joined #lisp 02:41:09 replore_ [~replore@FLH1Ahd118.kng.mesh.ad.jp] has joined #lisp 02:42:56 -!- tali713 [~user@64.196.22.19] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:43:58 -!- pskosinski [~pk@czu186.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: http://www.redeclipse.net -- Fast-paced online FPS] 02:44:26 tali713 [~user@64.196.22.19] has joined #lisp 02:46:29 gigamonkey_ [~gigamonke@adsl-108-200-141-160.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:48:14 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:49:36 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-24-221-134.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:49:37 -!- gigamonkey_ is now known as gigamonkey 02:54:25 hypnocat [~hypnocat@unaffiliated/hypnocat] has joined #lisp 02:55:50 -!- snits [~snits@inet-hqmc09-o.oracle.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:57:15 -!- bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable216.122-57-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Quit: leaving] 02:59:54 -!- pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:00:11 -!- replore_ [~replore@FLH1Ahd118.kng.mesh.ad.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:01:49 snits [~snits@174-17-101-132.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 03:03:34 -!- benny [~user@i577A7CEC.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:06:40 replore_ [~replore@FLH1Ahd118.kng.mesh.ad.jp] has joined #lisp 03:08:00 -!- pocket [~masato@113.36.199.254] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 03:08:04 -!- tali713 [~user@64.196.22.19] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 03:08:08 pocket [~masato@113.36.199.254] has joined #lisp 03:08:13 -!- pocket [~masato@113.36.199.254] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:09:06 -!- robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:13:34 robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:19:48 joekarma [~joekarma@S0106602ad090cd68.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 03:22:58 -!- Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-96-255-130-43.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 03:23:20 -!- joekarma [~joekarma@S0106602ad090cd68.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 03:23:50 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 03:24:01 joekarma [~joekarma@S0106602ad090cd68.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 03:25:50 barik [~barik@short.csc.ncsu.edu] has joined #lisp 03:26:20 -!- replore_ [~replore@FLH1Ahd118.kng.mesh.ad.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:29:06 rootlocus [~rootlocus@124-149-121-174.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 03:33:23 -!- sambio [~sam@190.57.227.107] has quit [Quit: Saliendo] 03:39:40 -!- qptain_Nemo [~qN@81-235-52-30-no79.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Quit: quitters gonna quit :|] 03:42:59 CFFI already protects me a little against my own ignorance. It complains if you try to pass a big integer to something you declared as :int, for example. 03:43:06 that's nice. 03:45:26 pnathan [~anunknown@64.126.142.148] has joined #lisp 03:47:24 -!- CampinSam [~user@24-176-98-217.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:49:17 I'm having a hard finding any documentation/examples of using serve-event with streams. 03:49:27 nightfly_: don't. 03:53:07 I'd really like to though. 03:55:08 -!- robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:55:58 robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:59:18 paul0 [~paul0@186.222.48.210] has joined #lisp 04:01:46 -!- rking [~rking@unaffiliated/rking] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:11:06 noiy [~user@h-72-33.a146.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 04:13:20 My plan was flawless until you found a flaw in it... :^S 04:24:27 -!- robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:26:27 nowl [~nowl@pool-173-48-242-12.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:28:06 Yay, generalized boolean! 04:37:47 CampinSam [~user@24-176-98-217.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has joined #lisp 04:42:11 CrLF0710 [~user@223.240.89.146] has joined #lisp 04:44:36 -!- pnathan [~anunknown@64.126.142.148] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 04:47:44 -!- paul0 [~paul0@186.222.48.210] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:48:01 -!- rootlocus [~rootlocus@124-149-121-174.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 04:49:40 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-108-200-141-160.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: gigamonkey] 04:51:28 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 04:52:13 -!- longlene [~loong0@112.3.253.27] has left #lisp 05:06:12 -!- nowl [~nowl@pool-173-48-242-12.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:08:09 -!- prip [~foo@host95-19-dynamic.43-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 05:11:14 -!- joekarma [~joekarma@S0106602ad090cd68.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: joekarma] 05:11:40 pnathan [~anunknown@75.87.250.229] has joined #lisp 05:12:10 -!- pnathan is now known as p_nathan 05:13:27 -!- p_nathan [~anunknown@75.87.250.229] has left #lisp 05:14:12 p_nathan [~anunknown@75.87.250.229] has joined #lisp 05:17:59 eataix [~eataix@unaffiliated/eataix] has joined #lisp 05:22:03 prip [~foo@host42-120-dynamic.52-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 05:24:48 gurrag [~gurrag@bb-216-195-184-91.gwi.net] has joined #lisp 05:24:49 -!- gurrag [~gurrag@bb-216-195-184-91.gwi.net] has quit [Changing host] 05:24:49 gurrag [~gurrag@unaffiliated/gurrag] has joined #lisp 05:28:58 asvil [~asvil@178.120.242.113] has joined #lisp 05:29:52 -!- eataix [~eataix@unaffiliated/eataix] has left #lisp 05:34:22 leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has joined #lisp 05:42:31 do any lisps have '1st class types' or would macros handle all the cases you might use that (also metaclasses?) 05:42:47 What is your definition of first class type? 05:44:37 kanedank` [~user@pool-72-74-50-53.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:44:53 benny [~user@i577A1CE5.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 05:45:14 alernating between C++ head and 'other'.. are templates similar to 'inline functions with 1st class types" sometimes 05:45:56 Is the syntax of a c++ template a bit like a function that takes types and returns a type.. could a language with 1class types do everything C++ templates can do 05:47:13 i guess theres other ways of doing everything a c++ coder does with templates 05:47:16 I don't think I grasp what you mean. 05:47:21 Take a look at http://symbo1ics.com/blog/?p=1495 05:47:40 That should give you some perspective on CL types 05:48:04 the reason i'm 'thinking out loud' here in lisp is i figure lisp has a broad range of paradigms and dialects.. 05:49:37 Lisp the family or Common Lisp? 05:49:45 any 05:50:18 ok the link seems relavant to whats going through my head at the minute thanks, 05:51:24 FYI, this *is* a common lisp channel, and we *do* like keeping it on CL-specific topics. I am more than happy to chat on PM if you want to compare & contrast other languages. 05:52:28 -!- justinmcp [~justinmcp@ppp118-208-3-7.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:56:25 "parametric types" ; 05:56:59 I think you could do something like C++ templates with enough macrology, but I don't know C++ tempates. 05:57:10 "parametric dependant types" ; 05:57:35 when working in C++ the funny thing is i'm always wanting to mix templates and macros 05:57:51 and of course lisp macros are a lot more versatile 05:58:04 -!- snits [~snits@174-17-101-132.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 05:59:54 My understanding is that C++ templates are not directly transferable without some deep macroology - you'll have to figure out how to generate the right type-specific forms and create the function to compile based on that. I may be very wrong though. 06:00:29 -!- steffi_s [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1168074916.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: zzzz] 06:00:47 C++ templates are more an "early bind" kind of thing; Common Lisp tends to defer binding. 06:04:10 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-132-88.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:05:51 i wonder to what extent implemetations (jit..tracinng) can do similar things 06:06:19 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 06:06:31 slyrus [~chatzilla@99.27.206.179] has joined #lisp 06:06:47 Ah, for that you'd be well off asking a SBCL maintainer. 06:06:53 They do a great deal of type inferencing. 06:08:33 -!- SVS__ [~SVS@168-103-108-61.albq.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:08:46 kind of like the whole program being templates i guess.. 06:09:17 can you rephrase the question, but without involving c++ terms? 06:11:03 axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-88-224.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 06:12:14 rootlocus [~rootlocus@124-149-121-174.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 06:13:01 ok, if i understood it correctly, you want macros to know types 06:13:11 SBCL uses deftransforms for that internally 06:13:21 ordinary macros are unable to do that 06:13:54 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.2.1] 06:14:06 mucker [~mucker@183.83.240.198] has joined #lisp 06:14:24 dtw [~dtw@pdpc/supporter/active/dtw] has joined #lisp 06:14:44 they are like compiler-macros, but can distinguish on inferred or specified types 06:14:57 Mrc1 [~Jon1@ip98-177-160-190.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 06:15:26 -!- Jubb [~ghost@pool-108-28-0-134.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:18:56 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.211.189] has joined #lisp 06:21:51 mrSpec [~Spec@77-254-143-229.adsl.inetia.pl] has joined #lisp 06:21:51 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@77-254-143-229.adsl.inetia.pl] has quit [Changing host] 06:21:51 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 06:21:53 naiv [~quassel@AAnnecy-552-1-303-85.w86-207.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:24:07 lcc [~lcc@unaffiliated/lcc] has joined #lisp 06:25:15 justinmcp [~justinmcp@ppp118-208-3-7.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 06:26:42 -!- Mrc1 [~Jon1@ip98-177-160-190.ph.ph.cox.net] has left #lisp 06:29:47 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 06:32:11 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 06:34:27 woudshoo [~user@ironhead.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 06:38:24 leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has joined #lisp 06:43:18 -!- quazimodo [~quazimodo@c122-106-147-75.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 06:45:53 ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has joined #lisp 06:45:56 Most lisp functions are generic. Where you would need a template in C++, you can just write a plain defun in lisp. 06:47:25 for example, sort. In C++ you have to use sort(int* vector,int start,int end,int(*cmp)(int,int)) or sort(stuff* vector,int start,int end,int(*cmp)(stuff,stuff)); etc. In lisp, you just use (sort vector lessp). 06:48:03 hello everyone 06:48:08 Then you can use generic functions with methods. 06:48:09 if you inline a function with something like (typecase x p q r) and the types of x are known at compile time, it will eliminate the type checks and only leave the right clause to be executed 06:48:13 rootlocus: Hello! 06:48:19 on SBCL, that is 06:48:54 pjb: just to clarify: when you say "most lisp functions are generic", you do not mean in the sense of defgeneric in this case do you? 06:49:14 And eventually, to do things you wouldn't be able to do with C++ template (just because of the lack of brain cells in human brain, templates are accidentally Turing Complete so it'd be theorically possible), you can do it easily with lisp macros. 06:49:18 i often rely on extensive inlining instead of using macros, because it's easier to work with functions 06:49:29 rootlocus: is cl:sort a defgeneric? 06:49:54 -!- JPeterson [~JPeterson@s213-103-211-58.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:50:05 map is a generic function: it takes any kind of sequence, and returns any kind of sequence. 06:50:06 pjb: no 06:50:17 stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-235-212.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 06:50:38 clhs glossary/generic function 06:50:38 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/26_glo_g.htm#generic_function 06:50:55 if you write a function using length and elt instead of array-dimensions, svref or char, then you get a function that is generic: it can work on any kind of sequence, instead of just vectors or strings. 06:51:07 pjb: any chance to use a less confusing term? 06:51:20 It's the term that's used in CS. 06:51:30 pjb: thanks, that clarifies it for me 06:51:34 I'm not saying generic function, I'm saying a function that's generic. 06:52:05 well, you said that map is "a generic function" 06:52:17 ok, I mean a function that is generic. 06:52:33 still, doesn't make it less confusing 06:53:14 I'm not responsible for the English language. 06:53:27 pjb: :) 06:54:15 then don't use it 06:54:38 Natural languages require some intelligence on the part of the listener too. 06:55:18 brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-142-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:55:23 the only listener that could reliably interpret phrasing like that would be one expecting to be deliberately misled. 06:55:28 it has nothing to do with intelligence 06:55:43 It has everything to do with it. 06:55:54 Either you want to understand or you don't and are playing dumb. 06:55:57 So go away. 06:56:18 if you're not well accustomed to CL, you're bound to misinterpret it 06:56:57 This is #lisp, not #clnoobs 06:57:23 then why are you going on about things that are common knowledge to those well accustomed to CL? 06:57:24 and yet people who ask questions are not masters of lisp 06:57:44 That's where I give example, and where you're consistently counter productive. 06:57:54 examples 06:58:03 justinmc_ [~justinmcp@ppp118-208-3-7.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 06:58:18 Ralith: well, when someone who ask the question even has "noob" in his name, you need to adjust how you present your answers 06:58:49 certainly; I was just curious about the apparent contradiction :P 06:59:38 the set of people to whom novice-level information presented in expert-level language is useful must be very small. 06:59:44 -!- justinmcp [~justinmcp@ppp118-208-3-7.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 07:00:34 That's why we created #clnoobs and indexed it on http://cliki.net/IRC 07:11:22 -!- gurrag [~gurrag@unaffiliated/gurrag] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:13:43 -!- brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-142-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:14:50 JPeterson [~JPeterson@s213-103-211-58.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 07:15:27 -!- didi 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[~dmiles@dsl-216-155-213-180.cascadeaccess.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 10:00:26 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-216-155-213-180.cascadeaccess.com] has joined #lisp 10:00:28 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-216-155-213-180.cascadeaccess.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 10:01:06 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@dsl-216-155-213-180.cascadeaccess.com] has joined #lisp 10:01:14 -!- fe[nl]ix has set mode +b dmiles_afk!*@* 10:09:07 fe[nl]ix: ? 10:11:33 ehu sent dmiles email that his IRC client was flooding. 10:11:43 ah. i've not seen that. 10:11:55 (filterbubbled) 10:13:26 -!- stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-235-212.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 10:13:38 yea. I like my joints/parts/quits visible. 10:13:58 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has quit [Quit: Close the world, Open the nExt] 10:14:04 so I don't start talking to people who left. 10:15:20 [SLB]` [~slabua@host57-169-dynamic.23-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 10:15:25 -!- antonv [5d7d31f9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.49.249] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:15:42 -!- [SLB]` is now known as [SLB] 10:15:42 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@host57-169-dynamic.23-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Changing host] 10:15:43 [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has joined #lisp 10:18:19 stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-235-212.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 10:21:38 gffa [~unknown@unaffiliated/gffa] has joined #lisp 10:27:11 ehu: you can make joins/parts/quits visible for people who were recently active only 10:29:33 bitonic: in mIRC? 10:30:02 ehu: oh, I don't know about mirc. I use ERC in emacs, I had to write some elisp to do that 10:30:10 weechat has that functionality out of the box 10:32:39 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 10:32:49 why did nobody tell me SLIME was so useful 10:36:58 bioh [~bioh@217.118.81.233] has joined #lisp 10:38:57 Is there a way for me to get SLIME to show the whole SLDB backtrace without paging down through all the --more-- prompts? 10:39:09 easye: > 10:39:23 Right. Thanks! 10:39:29 fe[nl]ix: dmiles_afk resolved his issues. 10:39:33 could you unban? 10:40:06 snearch [~snearch@f053001168.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 10:41:52 -!- Daisy [Daisy@host-78-78-223-91.mobileonline.telia.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:49:43 -!- teggi [~teggi@123.20.26.103] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:52:00 -!- fe[nl]ix has set mode -b dmiles_afk!*@* 10:52:21 -!- ChanServ has set mode -o fe[nl]ix 10:54:18 -!- rdd [~rdd@c83-250-157-60.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:56:28 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 10:57:21 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 11:02:35 didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has joined #lisp 11:05:24 iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has joined #lisp 11:06:33 rdd [~rdd@c83-250-157-60.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 11:06:53 guyal [~michaelmu@108-235-117-64.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 11:07:06 -!- guyal [~michaelmu@108-235-117-64.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 11:08:30 -!- trebor_dki [~user@kvpn.lbf.fraunhofer.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:13:15 mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.33.185] has joined #lisp 11:13:21 -!- bioh [~bioh@217.118.81.233] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:15:32 bioh [~user@2.92.102.29] has joined #lisp 11:20:03 -!- ArmyOfBruce [~bmitchene@waywardmonkeys.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 11:20:33 ArmyOfBruce [~bmitchene@waywardmonkeys.com] has joined #lisp 11:24:45 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-84-44-176-208.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: none] 11:28:31 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 11:35:00 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 11:35:01 -!- justinmcp [~justinmcp@ppp118-208-3-7.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:39:19 -!- snearch [~snearch@f053001168.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 11:43:42 -!- ehu [~ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:50:27 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-84-44-176-208.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 11:59:42 -!- pirateking-_- [~piratekin@c-67-169-182-169.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: pirateking-_-] 12:03:09 justinmcp [~justinmcp@ppp118-208-3-7.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 12:03:39 replore_ [~replore@FLH1Ahd118.kng.mesh.ad.jp] has joined #lisp 12:06:27 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 12:11:30 -!- rootlocus [~rootlocus@124-149-121-174.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:21:41 -!- knobo [~bohmer@80.203.252.97] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:25:33 -!- woudshoo [~user@ironhead.xs4all.nl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:25:52 woudshoo [~user@ironhead.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 12:27:31 eldariof [~CLD@pppoe-216-214-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has joined #lisp 12:27:53 -!- VieiraN [~VieiraN@189.110.154.209] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:29:34 Kenjin [~josesanto@2.80.239.239] has joined #lisp 12:31:29 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Quit: leaving] 12:31:53 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 12:37:51 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.33.185] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:38:20 mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.33.185] has joined #lisp 12:39:25 -!- c_arenz [~arenz@HSI-KBW-109-193-252-079.hsi7.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:45:41 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-39-135.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 12:45:45 -!- stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-235-212.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 12:55:24 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.2.1] 12:58:08 gko [~user@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 12:58:41 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8] 12:59:45 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.33.185] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:05:39 rootlocus [~rootlocus@124-149-121-174.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 13:07:30 raspi framebuffer access from lisp: check. now: try to get vecto write to framebuffer 13:08:37 H4ns: nice. 13:09:24 H4ns: do you connect with slime to it? 13:09:25 H4ns: what method are you using? Classi /dev/fb or going through EGL? 13:09:27 pkhuong: indeed. feels a bit like a real lisp machine now, with the drawing being slow, but totally interactive from the slime repl. 13:09:40 i see 13:09:41 stassats`: i have slime running on the pi 13:10:09 *stassats`* should reroot his phone 13:10:26 -!- getoffmalawn [~getoffmal@CPE-124-191-133-14.wzyy1.woo.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:10:31 p_l: i'm mapping /dev/fd - i'm mostly interested in getting the lowest-level access to the system that i can get. 13:11:08 H4ns: well, /dev/fb0 is pretty limited access in case of RPi 13:11:41 p_l: i'm just starting out, and this is just an exercise. 13:11:56 yeah :) 13:12:11 jackh [~jackh@37.244.148.169] has joined #lisp 13:12:20 Though going with EGL and getting cl-opengl to work with GLES might be fun :) 13:12:27 it's easy to call assembly from lisp, so you can have whatever access you desire 13:12:56 stassats`: actually, in case of RPi, the graphic engine just needs OpenGL ES and some related parts (EGL etc.) 13:13:12 p_l: i'm leaving that to someone else :) 13:13:25 framebuffer mode is pretty limited, I think, though you probably can access some of the overlays without GL 13:13:52 Can Common Qt work with Qt creator? 13:14:02 jackh: not really 13:14:10 shame 13:14:14 jackh: afaik in rather limited way 13:14:26 ivan4th may have something for this 13:15:29 for qml 13:17:52 -!- ousado [~ousado@unaffiliated/ousado] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 13:20:17 qml and Common Qt? 13:20:40 yes 13:20:42 is there a sexp to qml compiler? 13:20:48 no 13:21:38 Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 13:27:01 NikolaiDante [~nikolaida@unaffiliated/knighterrant] has joined #lisp 13:27:31 -!- NikolaiDante [~nikolaida@unaffiliated/knighterrant] has left #lisp 13:29:21 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 13:31:12 mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.33.185] has joined #lisp 13:34:17 strg [~strg@a89-182-11-35.net-htp.de] has joined #lisp 13:36:36 -!- replore_ [~replore@FLH1Ahd118.kng.mesh.ad.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:36:44 -!- justinmcp [~justinmcp@ppp118-208-3-7.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:38:13 -!- woudshoo [~user@ironhead.xs4all.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:39:41 KingsKnighted [~quassel@c-174-52-149-13.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:40:20 -!- Bacteria [~Bacteria@115-64-180-132.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Quit: Bacteria] 13:48:14 m7w [~chatzilla@178.172.228.109] has joined #lisp 13:51:29 -!- Khisanth [~Khisanth@50.14.244.111] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 13:51:48 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 13:52:08 ehu [~ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 13:57:45 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-172-224.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 13:59:06 -!- kmels [~kmels@HSI-KBW-078-043-223-122.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:59:56 Fare [~Fare@173-9-65-97-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 14:02:29 hello Fare :) 14:06:20 -!- am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:07:11 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 14:07:59 hi! 14:09:30 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@187.112.135.100] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:12:25 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:12:39 -!- add^_ [~add^_@m90-141-53-95.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: add^_] 14:12:56 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 14:14:09 hum. 14:15:45 ahem. 14:16:07 I'm not sure what API to adopt for "class"ified interfaces. 14:16:59 e.g. (empty ) becomes what: (empty-number-map) ? 14:17:35 or (empty ) becomes (empty '>map-class<) ? 14:18:12 or becomes (empty-map ) ? 14:19:00 Khisanth [~Khisanth@50.14.244.111] has joined #lisp 14:24:41 -!- rootlocus [~rootlocus@124-149-121-174.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:26:42 pnpuff [~pnpuff@gateway/tor-sasl/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 14:27:52 -!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has quit [Quit: http://www.cyphase.com/] 14:30:37 cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has joined #lisp 14:31:12 leo2007 [~leo@182.48.111.218] has joined #lisp 14:31:40 rootlocus [~rootlocus@124-149-121-174.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 14:32:55 Fare: You mean for a constructor? 14:32:58 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-141-88-88.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:35:08 yes 14:35:11 kennyd [~kennyd@93-141-88-88.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 14:36:16 I came up with some way to make it user-choosable 14:36:29 stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-224-050.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 14:36:38 Joreji [~thomas@77-23-116-225-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 14:36:43 Fare: I might be writing too much ML/Haskell lately, but what about packaging up everything like crazy and using (>map-class<:empty) 14:36:48 Now to iterate over each of an interface's gfs 14:37:09 sellout42, that's more or less what I'm doing 14:37:23 converting from interface-passing style to traditional OO style. 14:37:35 in a package of your choice. 14:38:30 Fare: Is your containers API stuff accessible anywhere? I just saw another container library get posted on github. 14:38:50 mathrick [~mathrick@94.144.63.81] has joined #lisp 14:40:05 And I have some containers of my own that I'd either like to integrate with your API (or toss, if you already have them). Primary hash array-mapped tries. 14:41:08 sellout42: it's on github in lisp-interface-library 14:41:29 currently only has balanced binary trees and patricia trees. 14:42:01 and I have an encoded-map functor 14:42:05 so you could do that! 14:43:04 Fare: Your article for ILC is currently a bit short ;) 14:43:10 yes, very 14:43:17 looking for help making it less short 14:43:26 what example would you like me to use to illustrate? 14:43:31 Oh, actually, I missed the main part. Not as short as I thought ;) 14:43:44 what is are your first desires with a datastructure library? 14:44:51 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@adsl-75-37-19-235.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 14:45:05 Fare: Well, I think they mostly line up with yours  having a consistent interface definition to make the implementations as interchangeable as possible, with some good documentation as to which implementations are good for which purposes. 14:45:25 kpreid [~kpreid@adsl-75-37-19-235.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:46:10 -!- sshirokov [sshirokov@2600:3c02::f03c:91ff:fe93:e02d] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:46:31 -!- sbryant [freenode@2600:3c02::f03c:91ff:fe93:e02d] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:46:38 Fare: I just posted the start of a library, Opt-Check, the goal of which is (at least partially) to be able to generate performance comparison tables: https://github.com/sellout/Opt-Check 14:46:48 sambio [~sam@190.57.227.107] has joined #lisp 14:47:08 urandom__ [~user@ip-5-146-57-9.unitymediagroup.de] has joined #lisp 14:47:25 Could be used to show relative performance between data structures on a per-lisp-impl basis. 14:47:55 -!- iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 14:48:15 nice 14:52:48 c_arenz [~arenz@HSI-KBW-109-193-252-079.hsi7.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 14:53:40 you could automatically invoke many lisp implementations using lisp-invocation.asd 14:54:06 what was this new datastructure library you found? 14:58:11 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-108-200-141-160.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:58:50 sbryant [freenode@2600:3c02::f03c:91ff:fe93:e02d] has joined #lisp 14:58:56 SVS_ [~SVS@104-252-AGAVEBB-NM.abq.nm.agavebb.net] has joined #lisp 14:58:59 sshirokov [sshirokov@2600:3c02::f03c:91ff:fe93:e02d] has joined #lisp 15:01:50 steffi_s [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1168074916.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 15:02:33 tensorpudding [~michael@108.87.18.210] has joined #lisp 15:02:48 -!- steffi_s [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1168074916.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 15:02:58 paul0 [~paul0@186.222.48.210] has joined #lisp 15:03:20 -!- SVS_ [~SVS@104-252-AGAVEBB-NM.abq.nm.agavebb.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 15:04:16 iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has joined #lisp 15:04:56 steffi_s [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1168074916.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 15:04:57 -!- quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:07:10 -!- denysonique [u484@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-povwmykeebdllbvc] has quit [] 15:08:24 fortitudeZDY [~fortitude@121.236.21.129] has joined #lisp 15:09:55 xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.227.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 15:10:49 Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 15:11:54 Fare: this one: https://github.com/slburson/fset 15:18:58 pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has joined #lisp 15:20:37 quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 15:21:48 zeissoctopus [~zeissocto@183178133120.ctinets.com] has joined #lisp 15:22:19 centipedefarmer [~centipede@75-170-159-150.desm.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 15:24:32 -!- centipedefarmer [~centipede@75-170-159-150.desm.qwest.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:27:19 strg_ [~strg@a89-182-105-102.net-htp.de] has joined #lisp 15:29:56 -!- strg [~strg@a89-182-11-35.net-htp.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:32:39 mgccl [~mgccl@ool-18be0b94.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 15:33:44 oh, it's not new, though it might be newly on github. 15:33:57 There are good things about fset, but it's really not what I wanted. 15:34:39 I has a more "primitive" interface, with a total ordering of all objects of all types 15:34:52 clashes with the CL package 15:35:27 I really wanted parametric polymorphism, and that was kind of the opposite. 15:38:03 eldar [~CLD@pppoe-202-159-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has joined #lisp 15:38:07 -!- eldariof [~CLD@pppoe-216-214-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:41:19 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 15:41:30 -!- fortitudeZDY [~fortitude@121.236.21.129] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:43:23 eldariof [~CLD@pppoe-204-195-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has joined #lisp 15:43:37 -!- eldar [~CLD@pppoe-202-159-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:44:17 -!- paul0 [~paul0@186.222.48.210] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:47:37 so it depends on what kind of API you want to write 15:47:37 -!- didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:47:53 sellout42, what kind of API do you want to write? 15:48:52 -!- _d3f [~d3f@nl1.ovpn.to] has quit [Quit: Let's roll.] 15:53:04 -!- Joreji [~thomas@77-23-116-225-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 15:55:33 pareidol1a [~michaelk@voncosel.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 15:56:43 NikolaiDante [~nikolaida@unaffiliated/knighterrant] has joined #lisp 15:56:46 Hello, world! 15:56:48 -!- NikolaiDante [~nikolaida@unaffiliated/knighterrant] has left #lisp 15:56:56 -!- steffi_s [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1168074916.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: zzzz] 15:57:00 Bike [~Glossina@65-102-7-180.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 15:58:32 Hi there 15:58:35 -!- jackh [~jackh@37.244.148.169] has quit [Quit: quit] 15:59:47 Does anyone know whether the Slime Inspector can display nums in hex? 16:01:21 it does already 16:01:51 kushal [~kdas@114.143.163.177] has joined #lisp 16:01:51 -!- kushal [~kdas@114.143.163.177] has quit [Changing host] 16:01:51 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 16:02:07 I only see decimal representations here 16:02:19 Fare: yeah, I'm looking more for what you're doing. 16:02:28 pareidol1a: where? 16:02:59 C-C I on an instance with numeric slots 16:03:16 inspect the number 16:03:35 Aha... 16:04:05 But if I have a list of numbers? 16:04:14 I don't want to go and inspect them all separately :) 16:04:44 yay! http://twitpic.com/asg85n 16:05:08 not that it'd be very fast :) 16:05:15 clhs *print-base* 16:05:15 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/v_pr_bas.htm 16:05:30 H4ns: but is it spinning? 16:05:41 stassats`: hah! 16:07:24 sellout42, LIL is subject to fluctuations, but the pure and stateful map interfaces are getting pretty stable at this time. 16:07:38 stassats`: Thanks! I did a simple setq, and slime followed. It's not as nice as "hexedit" but oh well 16:08:13 tiripamwe [~tiripamwe@41.221.159.85] has joined #lisp 16:08:16 Still a bit puzzled by the notation " BAF: @4=65 " 16:08:26 pareidol1a: hexl-find-file in emacs, if you want to edit files 16:08:38 pareidol1a: it means it was already visited 16:09:33 -!- Sgeo [~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:10:29 -!- JuanDaugherty [~Ren@cpe-72-228-189-184.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:11:17 H4ns, nice. I see that Rainer Joswig now runs his server on a Pi, too. 16:11:40 yeah, seems trendy :) 16:11:52 -!- rootlocus [~rootlocus@124-149-121-174.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:12:16 tie it to a balloon, run your server from space 16:13:17 paul0 [~paul0@186.222.48.210] has joined #lisp 16:13:36 mucker [~mucker@183.83.240.198] has joined #lisp 16:13:46 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has left #lisp 16:15:38 -!- bps [~bps@ip70-176-194-122.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Quit: bye] 16:16:16 stassats`, I knew people who wanted to launch satellites from air balloons. 16:16:37 maybe dime-size satellites 16:16:57 joekarma [~joekarma@S0106602ad090cd68.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 16:18:58 -!- nvy [~ri@2607:5300:30:1::7777] has left #lisp 16:21:04 -!- Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:21:05 mgccl_ [~mgccl@ool-18be0b94.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 16:22:58 -!- mgccl [~mgccl@ool-18be0b94.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:26:59 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 16:27:13 -!- bioh [~user@2.92.102.29] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:27:13 Is there a function to partition a list into equally sized parts? 16:27:21 no 16:28:15 Fare: Can you make asdf-utils independent today? 16:29:46 hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@94.137.61.240] has joined #lisp 16:30:07 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Excess Flood] 16:30:35 As in, have a copy of the code in asdf? 16:31:08 Jubb [~ghost@pool-108-28-0-134.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:31:22 rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 16:31:58 Fare: yes. 16:32:34 I sure can. 16:32:47 I'm not sure it's the best solution, but I'll defer to you. 16:33:04 BTW, did you have any specific project regarding ASDF replacements? 16:33:21 kmels [~kmels@HSI-KBW-078-043-223-122.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 16:33:33 (who did I see at the recent BLM who had a system similar to faslpath? Or, it was Alastair) 16:34:01 Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 16:34:10 Fare: the requirement of asdf >= 2.23 in asdf-utils has caused problems for a number of people and I don't see an easier fix than splitting off asdf-utils fully. 16:34:37 Yeah, I saw your post. Sorry about that. 16:34:50 Hi everyone. I need some help with this: http://paste.lisp.org/+2TLP. I really can't understand what's wrong with this code. 16:35:04 I didn't anticipate this difficulty. I was hoping for everyone to upgrade their asdf. 16:35:32 hitecnologys: look in the backtrace 16:35:38 -!- gko [~user@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:36:39 From where does the error originate? 16:36:42 -!- ehu [~ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:36:52 -!- dtw [~dtw@pdpc/supporter/active/dtw] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:37:07 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 16:37:23 stassats`: backtrace gives me nothing. =( 16:37:40 Fare: it would be nice but seems not to have happened quickly 16:37:50 hitecnologys: what do you mean nothing? 16:38:42 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 16:38:47 gurrag [~gurrag@unaffiliated/gurrag] has joined #lisp 16:38:49 it should show you where the error happens 16:38:52 -!- mgccl_ [~mgccl@ool-18be0b94.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi] 16:39:01 you then go to the code where it happens and figure out why 16:39:10 stassats`: Added backache to annotation. 16:39:18 Oh, that blows. Dan Weinreb died. 16:39:36 hitecnologys: so, what's not clear about that backtrace? 16:40:19 do you see the top function? it's assoc, so, that means that you're calling assoc with bad arguments 16:40:25 stassats`: I can't figure out where is mistake. All seems to be fine. I can't find any mistakes. Maybe it's just me stupid 16:41:01 now, you would get a slightly more precise backtrace if you put (declaim (optimize (debug 2))) into that file and recompile it 16:41:08 stassats`: Aw, huh, I forgot that ASSOC returns cons Thanks. 16:41:52 what if I depend on asdf 2.000 ? 16:42:01 What's the difference between declare and declaim? 16:42:10 clhs declare 16:42:10 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_declar.htm 16:42:11 and make sure I define things that have changed at anytime? 16:42:12 clhs declaim 16:42:12 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_declai.htm 16:42:12 zort- [~eitan@bas1-toronto07-1176320287.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 16:43:03 Using gray and/or flexi streams, how do you map a function over a stream, returning a new stream? 16:43:17 stassats`: Thanks for advice. It'll try it. 16:43:34 Woohoo it works: (THREE TWO ONE)! 16:43:52 because asdf-utils is also exporting things like compile-file-pathname* that are kind of tied to asdf 16:44:09 hitecnologys: i suggest you to put (sb-ext:restrict-compiler-policy 'debug 2) into ~/.sbclrc 16:44:23 or should I stop exporting that from asdf-utils and require people to use asdf for that? 16:44:24 stassats`: OK. 16:44:36 hitecnologys: and pressing "v" on the frame in the slime debugger would bring you directly to the code in question 16:44:46 stassats`: But what's the difference between 3 and 2? 16:44:54 2 is less than 3 16:45:28 stassats`: I know. I mean as debug value. 16:45:41 debug level value* 16:45:45 well, exactly that, less debugging info than with 3 16:45:53 2 is good enough 16:45:54 it gets worse since compile-file* depends on various special variables in asdf :-/ 16:46:02 stassats`: OK. Thx again. 16:46:38 ideally, asdf could depend on asdf-utils, but there's a chicken-and-egg problem there 16:47:01 zort-: you create a new gray stream, implementing the necessary methods in the way you wish 16:47:13 flexistreams is doing this, so you can look at it 16:47:30 aww 16:48:30 minion: gray streams? 16:48:30 gray streams: "Gray Streams" are a generic function wrapping of the COMMON-LISP streams in the standard library, allowing for further specialization by end users. http://www.cliki.net/gray%20streams 16:49:14 http://www.nhplace.com/kent/CL/Issues/stream-definition-by-user.html 16:49:18 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@5.34.28.218] has joined #lisp 16:49:18 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@5.34.28.218] has quit [Changing host] 16:49:18 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 16:49:59 Fare: I think you are the only consumer of asdf-utils. 16:50:16 :) 16:50:18 Fare: I think you should make incompatible changes if needed and I can test them in the quicklisp universe today 16:50:19 -!- impulse [~impulse@bas3-toronto48-1176441543.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 16:50:31 Does anyone here do C++ ? 16:50:53 OK. 16:51:03 it doesn't matter, C++ is verboten in this channel! 16:51:08 Well, what about I make asdf-utils compatible with older versions of asdf? 16:51:14 pareidol1a: It's lisp room, isn't it? 16:51:23 How far in the past do you NEED me to be compatible? 16:51:35 Yes, but that isn't the question 16:51:37 ShereKahn [40671968@gateway/web/freenode/ip.64.103.25.104] has joined #lisp 16:51:54 Fare: I don't think anyone uses asdf-utils except you so I think only you can answer that question. 16:52:11 Nobody intentionally uses it, that is. 16:52:16 Xach: how far will stop breaking things with quicklisp? 16:52:32 are you putting asdf 2.21 in quicklisp? 16:52:35 /o\ 16:52:45 _d3f [~d3f@nl1.ovpn.to] has joined #lisp 16:53:05 then I hopefully only have to have compatibility with 2.21 and earlier. 16:53:12 2.21 and later, I mean 16:53:26 -!- ShereKahn [40671968@gateway/web/freenode/ip.64.103.25.104] has quit [Client Quit] 16:53:28 Fare: I don't understand. if asdf-utils has its own code, does the version of asdf matter? 16:54:34 Well, I find that it can't have its own code everywhere easily due to various special variables 16:54:47 Or I could massively strip asdf-utils of functionality. 16:54:57 That sounds good to me 16:55:51 if asdf-utils depends on asdf, then what's the point in having them split? 16:56:09 very little 16:56:10 stassats`, providing a stable interface? 16:56:29 the real point of the question is "don't make asdf-utils depend on asd" 16:56:32 asdf, rather 16:56:53 -!- robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:56:54 ok. So for now, stop exporting stuff that depends on asdf internals. 16:57:04 i think that is the best thing 16:57:52 eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 16:58:18 i imagined asdf-utils is a set of utils used by asdf, not the other way around 16:58:35 it is a way to stop using asdf as a utility library 16:58:36 -!- zeissoctopus [~zeissocto@183178133120.ctinets.com] has quit [Quit: ] 16:59:00 the halfway step (simply re-exporting) has not worked that well 16:59:50 OK, doing just that. 17:00:08 stassats`, I'd like to, but there's a chicken and egg problem there. 17:00:31 stassats`, or then again, I could try to automatically generate asdf.lisp from various fragments... 17:00:47 (as was proposed a few years back) 17:01:21 steffi_s [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1168074916.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 17:01:33 -!- zort- [~eitan@bas1-toronto07-1176320287.dsl.bell.ca] has left #lisp 17:02:32 -!- gurrag [~gurrag@unaffiliated/gurrag] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:05:18 -!- xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.227.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:05:52 -!- hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@94.137.61.240] has quit [Quit: hitecnologys] 17:09:35 saschakb [~skbierm@gateway/tor-sasl/saschakb] has joined #lisp 17:17:48 syamajala [~syamajala@dyn-160-39-151-75.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 17:19:00 am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has joined #lisp 17:20:36 -!- saschakb [~skbierm@gateway/tor-sasl/saschakb] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:20:46 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:21:36 saschakb [~skbierm@gateway/tor-sasl/saschakb] has joined #lisp 17:22:12 -!- pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:26:17 §!°$%&/ 17:27:38 $? 17:29:27 -!- am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:37:12 gurrag [~gurrag@bb-216-195-184-91.gwi.net] has joined #lisp 17:37:12 -!- gurrag [~gurrag@bb-216-195-184-91.gwi.net] has quit [Changing host] 17:37:13 gurrag [~gurrag@unaffiliated/gurrag] has joined #lisp 17:39:24 -!- saschakb [~skbierm@gateway/tor-sasl/saschakb] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 17:41:54 -!- axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-88-224.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8] 17:43:16 -!- eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:45:47 brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-142-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:48:33 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:50:34 -!- Yuuhi`` is now known as Yuuhi 17:56:05 housel [~user@mccarthy.opendylan.org] has joined #lisp 17:57:58 asvil [~asvil@178.121.11.179] has joined #lisp 17:59:12 -!- Bike [~Glossina@65-102-7-180.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:00:31 -!- leo2007 [~leo@182.48.111.218] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:05:24 edgar-rft [~GOD@HSI-KBW-078-043-123-191.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 18:08:13 -!- mucker [~mucker@183.83.240.198] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:10:10 mucker [~mucker@183.83.240.198] has joined #lisp 18:11:30 AlbireoX [~AlbireoX@76.78.168.37] has joined #lisp 18:12:13 Hey, is there a way to specify optional rest parameters? 18:12:56 Sure. First, explain what an optional rest parameter is. 18:13:03 -!- c_arenz [~arenz@HSI-KBW-109-193-252-079.hsi7.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 18:13:13 -!- Sorella [~quildreen@oftn/member/Sorella] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:13:38 -!- pskosinski [~pk@czu186.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:14:02 pskosinski [~pk@czu186.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 18:15:48 kpreid: I want to do something like (defun foo (a &optional (&rest b (20 10 30 40) b-p)) (format t "~a" b)) if that makes sense 18:16:03 where b is by default set to (20 10 30 40) 18:16:27 so you are excluding the case where b is ()? 18:16:45 no, i just want a default list for b 18:17:46 dude, why did they use #\Tab hardcoded in many places in mcclim.... 18:17:50 is it possible? 18:18:04 (defun foo (a &optional &rest (b (20 10 30 40) b-p)) (format t "~a" b)) is what i tried first but (terminated by "Invalid lambda list element (B (20 10 30 40) B-P)") 18:18:29 AlbireoX: suppose that you got this, how would the caller specify that b should be ()? 18:18:47 hmm 18:18:51 they wouldn't be able to then 18:19:10 yes, so it is excluding that case 18:19:12 AlbireoX: The thing to understand about all the &foo is that they are shorthands for ways of parsing the argument list 18:19:20 the argument list really is just a list 18:19:39 i see 18:20:11 so it isn't possible to do that because there isn't a good reason to allow syntax like that then? 18:20:34 CL provides you with useful syntactic sugar, but in the end it is all equivalent to (though more efficient than) (defun foo (&rest args) (let ((a (first args)) ...) ...) 18:20:46 so if you need something fancy, just do that 18:21:14 ok 18:21:44 in your case, just use &rest. b-p is the same as b. (let ((defaulted-b (or b '(20 10 30 40)))) ...) 18:22:09 ok 18:22:10 thanks 18:22:26 one more thing 18:22:28 (defun foo (a &optional (b (1 2 3 4) b-p)) (format t "~a" b)) 18:22:44 is it not possible to allow a default list value? 18:22:52 in any way? 18:22:55 you want '(1 2 3 4) 18:22:59 ok 18:23:01 i se 18:23:02 see* 18:23:03 thanks 18:23:10 the default is given as a form, not a value 18:23:20 if it wasn't obvious i'm a complete beginner, i started yesterday :p 18:23:39 -!- punee [~punee@213-245-106-105.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:24:00 punee [~punee@213-245-106-105.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 18:25:15 AlbireoX: if you want there's #clnoobs (a dedicated channel) for the beginning questions! :) 18:25:33 pnpuff: Thanks, I'll try that next time :D 18:26:41 qptain_Nemo [~qN@81-235-52-30-no79.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 18:26:51 Sorella [~quildreen@oftn/member/Sorella] has joined #lisp 18:27:11 tali713 [~user@64.196.22.19] has joined #lisp 18:29:39 pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has joined #lisp 18:31:14 AlbireoX: you're welcome in the lisp multiverse! ;) 18:31:32 Joreji [~thomas@77-23-116-225-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 18:32:33 -!- tali713 [~user@64.196.22.19] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:33:16 tali713 [~user@64.196.22.19] has joined #lisp 18:35:41 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 18:35:41 -!- iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 18:38:31 iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has joined #lisp 18:39:36 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:39:44 SVS_ [~SVS@104-252-AGAVEBB-NM.abq.nm.agavebb.net] has joined #lisp 18:44:58 dude, wtf, now my +royal-blue+ is not taking any effect on climacs.... 18:45:23 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-84-44-176-208.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: none] 18:46:36 ooh, climacs has turned radical 18:49:58 many-minds :) 18:51:21 homie [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-176-208.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 18:55:01 -!- Axioplase [~Axioplase@218.201.120.153.tokyo.global.crust-r.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:56:39 -!- KingsKnighted [~quassel@c-174-52-149-13.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:56:50 -!- tali713 [~user@64.196.22.19] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 18:56:53 dnolen [~user@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:57:07 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@91-119-59-123.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 18:58:01 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-148-156.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 18:58:57 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-148-156.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:59:50 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-176-208.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:00:51 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-148-156.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 19:02:01 Axioplase [~Axioplase@218.201.120.153.tokyo.global.crust-r.net] has joined #lisp 19:02:35 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-201-95.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:02:50 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-148-156.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 19:02:55 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:03:18 -!- Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:04:06 -!- tiripamwe [~tiripamwe@41.221.159.85] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 19:07:51 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 19:08:31 -!- gurrag [~gurrag@unaffiliated/gurrag] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:09:07 impulse [~impulse@bas3-toronto48-1096587421.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 19:10:56 Daisy [Daisy@host-78-78-215-214.mobileonline.telia.com] has joined #lisp 19:12:04 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-148-156.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:14:50 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-148-156.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 19:18:13 -!- CrLF0710 [~user@223.240.89.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:19:59 -!- strg_ [~strg@a89-182-105-102.net-htp.de] has quit [Quit: Linkinus - http://linkinus.com] 19:20:49 MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-2-141-76.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 19:21:53 Xach: OK, I did it. 19:23:08 -!- mucker [~mucker@183.83.240.198] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:23:34 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 19:23:46 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-8-146-155.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:24:28 -!- pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:27:35 Fare: yay. i will test it now! 19:27:39 it will take a while 19:28:19 ehu [~ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 19:28:52 DDR [~chatzilla@d66-183-118-10.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 19:29:00 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:31:42 i got this one edited, the one from the book didn't work properly http://paste.lisp.org/display/131678 19:32:07 nothing got drawn, with the one from the book 19:32:32 i just skipped the update things... 19:32:51 erm, mcclim user-guide or so 19:32:56 antonv [5d7d31f9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.49.249] has joined #lisp 19:33:03 even the examples are buggy 19:33:54 holding the mouse left-button over the first pane and typing in someting draws the text right there now 19:34:48 woudshoo [~user@ironhead.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 19:34:54 and if i hold the left mouse-button and does not release it while dragging then that text thing will get drawn all over the area too 19:36:16 dunno why they even thought using +flipping-ink+ would do anything.... 19:36:38 that's just like a transparent ink then... 19:36:40 heh 19:39:19 [6502] [5e24deb2@gateway/web/freenode/ip.94.36.222.178] has joined #lisp 19:39:44 ok, wait no, using +flipping-ink+ was not the cause 19:40:15 i changed it back to it, and the example still works 19:40:19 <[6502]> Hello. Can let be a macro (e.g. expanding to a (funcall (lambda ...) ...) form in a compliant implementation? 19:40:19 [6502], memo from pjb: it's neither a plus or a problem: normal human brains have enough neurons to deal with that. Most user defined macros have either some conventional name (do-.*, with-.*, def.*, .*ing-.*), or are well known DSL verbs. 19:40:20 [6502], memo from pjb: code walking loop, or any other macro is trivial: (code-walk (macroexpand form env) env) 19:40:20 [6502], memo from pjb: macrolets are cool to define a local DSL. No problem if they're just renaming macros. 19:41:08 macrolet 19:41:23 like labels but for macros not functions 19:43:02 <[6502]> wbooze: yes... it was about a discussion if using them for shortcut is good or not... e.g. (macrolet ((aw (&rest args) (add-widget w ,args)) ...) 19:43:18 pirateking-_- [~piratekin@c-67-169-182-169.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:43:31 <[6502]> Can let be a macro (e.g. expanding to a (funcall (lambda ...) ...) form in a compliant implementation? 19:44:17 afaik, any macro if it makes code shorter is legible... 19:44:41 but if you think it makes it harder to read or so......your mileage may vary 19:45:14 huangjs [~huangjs@69.84.244.131] has joined #lisp 19:45:36 and i didn't use even one yet..... 19:45:43 <[6502]> wbooze: yes... i finally realized that the DRY principle is not about typing less, but about not being boring. Making things just shorter (but not easier to understand) is not a plus... we'd program all in zipped form otherwise 19:45:48 -!- NimeshNeema [u2689@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-wnxyzoqtmbtyptgk] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 19:45:52 i'm still at function level 19:46:04 tho i read a little about macros too 19:46:22 -!- kwmiebach [~kwmiebach@37-188-126-213.static.cloud-ips.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:46:36 <[6502]> wbooze: it's the "blub" level... you're using lisp like any other modern dynamically typed language 19:46:37 yes ok..... 19:47:08 well, not there yet....like i said.... 19:47:08 <|3b|> [6502]: CL special forms are allowed to be implemented as macros if i remember correctly 19:47:45 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-108-200-141-160.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: gigamonkey] 19:47:56 the thing is now i can't draw any lines..... 19:48:01 heh 19:48:14 gurrag [~gurrag@bb-216-195-184-91.gwi.net] has joined #lisp 19:48:14 -!- gurrag [~gurrag@bb-216-195-184-91.gwi.net] has quit [Changing host] 19:48:14 gurrag [~gurrag@unaffiliated/gurrag] has joined #lisp 19:48:31 NimeshNeema [u2689@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-kggluonihdgqhzuv] has joined #lisp 19:55:49 -!- MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-2-141-76.as43234.net] has quit [Quit: brb] 19:56:08 MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-141-76.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 19:57:58 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-148-156.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:57:58 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-148-156.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:58:01 -!- Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:58:35 -!- Axioplase [~Axioplase@218.201.120.153.tokyo.global.crust-r.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:58:54 Axioplase [~Axioplase@218.201.120.153.tokyo.global.crust-r.net] has joined #lisp 20:00:19 -!- gurrag [~gurrag@unaffiliated/gurrag] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:02:20 strg [~strg@a89-182-105-102.net-htp.de] has joined #lisp 20:02:44 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-148-156.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 20:03:19 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-148-156.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 20:04:11 gurrag [~gurrag@unaffiliated/gurrag] has joined #lisp 20:05:50 ravster [~ravi@24-212-136-201.cable.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 20:06:39 xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.227.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 20:08:11 -!- syamajala [~syamajala@dyn-160-39-151-75.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:11:40 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-148-156.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:11:40 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-148-156.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:12:06 Hello everyone 20:12:45 -!- woudshoo [~user@ironhead.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: goin to bed] 20:15:53 <[6502]> why does "(setq x 12)" generates a warning "undefined variable: x" ? Isn't x in that form just a symbol? 20:17:12 <[6502]> generate 20:18:47 <[6502]> "(set 'y 99)" doesn't generate any warning... 20:19:27 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has quit [Quit: Close the world, Open the nExt] 20:19:51 <|3b|> X in that form should be " a symbol naming a variable..." 20:21:37 <|3b|> SET doesn't require a binding, since it modifies the value cell of a symbol 20:22:15 -!- bitonic [~user@027cae25.bb.sky.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:24:10 Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has joined #lisp 20:24:24 <|3b|> note that SETQ must work on lexical, special, and symbol-macro bindings, while SET completely ignores bindings 20:25:08 c_arenz [~arenz@HSI-KBW-109-193-252-079.hsi7.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 20:25:25 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-148-156.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 20:29:01 [SLB]` [~slabua@host57-169-dynamic.23-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 20:29:23 -!- [SLB]` is now known as [SLB] 20:29:24 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@host57-169-dynamic.23-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Changing host] 20:29:24 [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has joined #lisp 20:30:22 <[6502]> |3b|: Ok... seems this is one more historical heritage (the setq name). I also remember seeing somewhere a setqq ... 20:30:31 add^_ [~add^_@m90-141-53-95.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 20:30:34 -!- pskosinski [~pk@czu186.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: http://www.redeclipse.net -- Fast-paced online FPS] 20:30:56 <|3b|> right, in a dialect with only dynamic bindings, SETQ would be equivalent to SET + QUOTE 20:31:45 <[6502]> probably was an apple ][ lisp 20:31:46 <|3b|> (well, a dialect with only dynamic bindings where the dynamic binding is always accessible with SYMBOL-VALUE... i suppose you could design one where that wasn't true) 20:32:45 <|3b|> i think 'dynamic bindings only' was reasonably common in early dialects (older than scheme/CL) 20:36:29 Emacs Lisp? 20:39:38 <[6502]> It's not easy to explain setq/setf to a lisp newbie... 20:40:27 <[6502]> setf can sometimes become setq, and setq can sometimes become setf 20:41:53 -!- brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-142-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:41:59 Bike [~Glossina@65-102-7-180.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 20:44:46 -!- c_arenz [~arenz@HSI-KBW-109-193-252-079.hsi7.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:45:17 c_arenz [~arenz@HSI-KBW-109-193-252-079.hsi7.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 20:50:46 <|3b|> yeah, easiest to just ignore SET and SETQ 20:51:45 -!- dnolen [~user@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:52:04 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-141-76.as43234.net] has quit [Quit: brb] 20:52:17 -!- iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has left #lisp 20:52:58 pnpuff` [~pnpuff@gateway/tor-sasl/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 20:53:04 tritchey_ [~tritchey@c-68-51-88-12.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:54:02 justinmcp [~justinmcp@ppp118-208-3-7.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 20:56:19 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-88-12.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:56:24 -!- pnpuff [~pnpuff@gateway/tor-sasl/pnpuff] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:57:37 -!- tritchey_ [~tritchey@c-68-51-88-12.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:58:15 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-148-156.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:58:30 caoliver [~chatzilla@24-236-215-112.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has joined #lisp 21:00:43 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-148-156.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 21:02:33 MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-141-76.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 21:05:07 Cosman246 [~user@c-66-235-50-85.sea.wa.customer.broadstripe.net] has joined #lisp 21:05:14 Hello 21:05:31 <[6502]> hello cosman246 21:05:32 Has anyone seen pmetzger here lately? 21:05:32 caoliver, memo from pjb: have a look at ibcl http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/small-cl-pgms/ibcl/index.html 21:06:38 pskosinski [~pk@czu186.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 21:07:17 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has quit [Quit: Close the world, Open the nExt] 21:07:22 Say I (hypothetically) visit Boston in the near future (I won't in 2012; but maybe in 2013). What's the general scheduled date for Boston Lisp Meetings? 21:08:32 We haven't got one next month 21:08:36 Can you speak? 21:08:51 if you can speak, you'll be speaker and you set the date! 21:09:04 N-no, I'm still a mere student 21:09:09 I haven't released anything yer 21:09:09 These times, it's usually on thursdays 21:09:12 *yet 21:09:17 Oh, OK, thanks 21:09:23 well, there's no dearth of projects in need of coders. 21:09:53 I'm working my way through PAIP right now 21:10:21 fare: I just watched a video of Reti's OG demo from the Boston meeting. Is there any, even slight, real activity with the VLM? 21:10:34 probably not. 21:10:42 apart from Reti and a few old timers. 21:10:45 :-( 21:11:16 maybe if you convince jcma to release the rights to the source code... 21:11:22 -!- asvil [~asvil@178.121.11.179] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:11:37 I was curious 'cos a had an xl1201 briefly, and didn't really get much of a chance to play around before I started getting hard memory errors. 21:11:47 :( 21:11:53 well, there's a emulator around 21:11:59 you can play with it 21:12:06 -!- c_arenz [~arenz@HSI-KBW-109-193-252-079.hsi7.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:12:29 AlbireoX`Laptop [~AlbireoX@76.78.168.37] has joined #lisp 21:12:43 -!- AlbireoX [~AlbireoX@76.78.168.37] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:13:01 It doesn't play nicely with modern X. I actually hacked up an LD_PRELOAD to set the net to an arbitrary tap and allow execution as non-root. 21:13:13 yes 21:13:24 if you want, I have a tarball with scripts that do the right thing 21:13:34 Reti has a fix for that 21:13:39 wtf 21:13:40 maybe we can convince him to release that 21:13:50 That would be good. 21:14:13 why do i have to use + or :around with all my methods now that i changed the gf..... 21:14:14 -!- Axioplase [~Axioplase@218.201.120.153.tokyo.global.crust-r.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:14:59 -!- joekarma [~joekarma@S0106602ad090cd68.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:15:17 joekarma [~joekarma@S0106602ad090cd68.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 21:15:22 [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has joined #lisp 21:15:26 -!- m7w [~chatzilla@178.172.228.109] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 21:16:38 Who is JCMA? I thought the last "person of interest" was the late A. Topping. 21:16:53 eldar [~CLD@pppoe-213-189-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has joined #lisp 21:17:36 -!- superjudge [~superjudg@c83-250-198-227.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 21:18:54 john c mallery -- currently holder of the symbolics IP rights. 21:19:21 apparently, Topping owed jcma money, and jcma negotiated the IP in exchange from the Topping estate. 21:19:34 uh, that's news to me 21:19:42 -!- ehu [~ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [] 21:19:55 so now the ip is in posession of an actual person with an actual interest in lisp, right? 21:20:10 Or at least a lisp web server. 21:20:17 and Reti witnesses that Topping actually paid for the IP so his title was valid. 21:20:20 -!- eldariof [~CLD@pppoe-204-195-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:20:52 H4ns: but jcma hasn't replied to email for months or years. 21:21:04 Maybe I should hunt him down personally. 21:21:26 Axioplase [~Axioplase@218.201.120.153.tokyo.global.crust-r.net] has joined #lisp 21:21:28 could be the only way! 21:21:34 -!- justinmcp [~justinmcp@ppp118-208-3-7.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:21:52 -!- n00b6502 [~ceti331@host81-157-102-115.range81-157.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:21:54 start a kickstarter "i need a flight to jcma" 21:21:57 As a not that young hacker myself, I hate the frequency with which we reincinerate our Alexandrian libraries. 21:22:18 Fare: the only casualty seems to be rpm 21:22:32 IMPORT ASDF:PROBE-FILE* causes name-conflicts in # between the following symbols:ASDF:PROBE-FILE*, ASDF-UTILS:PROBE-FILE* 21:22:53 H4ns: you did the teensy SMBX kbd hack, right 21:23:01 caoliver: correct 21:24:20 Xach: thanks! 21:24:26 I'll fix RPM asap 21:24:26 I may try that myself. Unfortunately, I don't have my old kbd any more, but trying to use the metas from X is painful, not to mention snap4 hoses the xmodmap. 21:25:13 caoliver: david schmidt might still have some keyboards on sale 21:25:41 He did have some of the late model metal wedge kbds last time I asked. 21:27:09 the conversion process is really painless, so if you ever feel tempted, do it :) 21:27:46 -!- edgar-rft [~GOD@HSI-KBW-078-043-123-191.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Quit: this computer sucks] 21:27:53 <[6502]> It's nice to see some "a-ah!" moment in a lisp newbie :-) 21:27:55 As I recall, it's just a) program a teensy, b) wire it to a usb and the kdb. Fini! 21:28:02 caoliver: right 21:28:10 So wait, that means we can get a VLM eventually? 21:28:17 Xach, should be fixed. Thanks a lot! 21:28:22 -!- eldar [~CLD@pppoe-213-189-dyn-sr.volgaline.ru] has quit [] 21:29:05 I hope. Part of me also wants nice image based dev enviroment for sbcl or ccl. Stas was not amused by the notion. 21:29:13 Fare: looks good 21:29:14 Cosman246: it was more a matter of really wanting it during the last few years 21:29:31 As in? 21:30:11 as usual, I hope asdf 2.25 will be the last release. 21:30:11 Cosman246: as in look hard, download, install, ?, profit 21:30:19 Ah 21:32:09 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.211.189] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:32:36 bitonic [~user@027cae25.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 21:33:46 H4ns: did cl-who::replace-htm go away? 21:34:03 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.33.185] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 21:34:37 Xach: i need to look, hold on 21:35:03 H4ns: asking because cl-haml-test apparently referenced it and now it's getting an error. 21:35:23 not quite sure though 21:35:31 robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:35:46 Xach: it did not go away in the last three years, no. 21:36:05 *Xach* scratches head 21:36:13 -!- Joreji [~thomas@77-23-116-225-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:37:15 i wonder if it's a symptom of some other problem 21:38:20 lispm [~lispm@g224046134.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 21:38:39 Xach: replace-htm _did_ go away, but long ago 21:40:14 how can i ask git to tell me _when_ exactly? 21:40:56 Xach: is a new release of quicklisp underway? 21:41:02 H4ns: git blame ? 21:41:07 -!- Alice3 [~Alice@cpc3-grim12-0-0-cust856.12-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [] 21:41:10 wait, opposite 21:41:14 git bisect? 21:41:21 git annotate 21:41:31 bitonic, for a *deleted* line 21:41:44 ah, right 21:42:22 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-148-156.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:42:23 hey, anyone using postmodern? basic insertion is very slow here, about 100/sec, cpu and disk are not burned, any ideas what's the problem? 21:42:36 Fare: pretty soon 21:43:01 huangjs: each insert is one server round trip 21:43:13 H4ns: it's localhost 21:43:29 H4ns: no, it's 3 round-trips 21:43:32 huangjs, each insert is one fdatasync() to disk 21:43:40 huangjs: there you are 21:43:51 hmm... ok, make sense 21:44:16 you could batch your inserts into a single transaction... 21:44:32 Xach: i can't figure out when exactly replace-htm was removed, but it was a long time ago 21:44:41 huangjs: better yet, you can insert multiple rows in one insert 21:44:45 H4ns: thanks. I'm not sure why cl-haml-test is failing. 21:44:48 huangjs: or use copy 21:44:52 H4ns: because postmodern turns every query into a anonymous prepared statement instead of executing as a simple-query, it's 3 round-trips: PARSE, BIND and EXECUTE 21:44:53 but iotop said only 10% by postgres 21:45:06 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-148-156.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 21:45:21 and we've found problems with the protocol parsing in cl-postgres 21:45:29 H4ns: fe[nl]ix: I'm using prepared queries 21:45:31 fe[nl]ix: does it bind? i was under the impression that it sends literal data 21:45:33 huangjs, sure - postgres is waiting for the disk 21:45:40 Fare: i see 21:45:53 atsidi [~nkraft@ip72-192-253-246.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 21:46:11 H4ns: unfortunately yes, it does bind each time it's executed 21:46:21 100 transactions per second is about what you'd expect from a low-grade disk. 21:46:26 an s-sql syntax for inserting multiple rows with one request would be nice. i've pondered that for a while yesterday, but then just used string concatenation. 21:46:33 ok, I'm actually using select ... where not exist (select ...) to avoid inserting duplicated keys, any idea how to speed that up? 21:46:33 one should at least use defprepared 21:46:46 H4ns: drewc found it, lemme read the logs 21:46:56 -!- urandom__ [~user@ip-5-146-57-9.unitymediagroup.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:47:15 (:insert-into '(foo id bar baz) (:values (:set 1 2 3) (:set 3 4 5)) 21:47:17 I'm not sure a fast disk would get you much more than 1000/s 21:47:23 Fare: that makes sense. thanks 21:47:48 fe[nl]ix: uh, that's nice! thanks! 21:47:59 fe[nl]ix: nice! 21:48:28 (of course, a good database would simultaneously commit to disk several non-conflicting parallel transactions, so could do much more work; but a given sequential client would still not see more than 1000/s) 21:49:21 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 21:49:45 actually, I'm not sure if the main problem is in cl-postgres, usocket or sbcl's ansi-streams but postmodern is a bottleneck here 21:50:05 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has quit [Quit: Automatic restart triggered due to persistent lag. Freenode staff: If this is happening too frequently, please set a nickserv freeze on my account, and once my connection is stable, unfreeze the account and /kill me to trigger a reconnect.] 21:51:08 fe[nl]ix: i was under the impression that cl-postgres does not use usocket, or does it? 21:52:25 tiripamwe [~tiripamwe@41.221.159.83] has joined #lisp 21:52:46 it does 21:52:52 fe[nl]ix: ok, that translates to values((1, 2, 3), (4, 5, 6)), but I want to avoid inserting rows with duplicated keys any idea? 21:53:12 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has joined #lisp 21:53:19 I'm not sure 21:53:19 what do you think of clojure's datomic? 21:53:20 ah, except on sbcl 21:53:42 you're using Allegro, right :) 21:53:46 huangjs: how large is your table? 21:53:49 fe[nl]ix: i'm not. 21:54:04 huangjs: let the DB decide which keys are duplicate 21:54:06 H4ns: 3 million rows 21:54:22 huangjs: how many rows do you want to insert in each operation? 21:54:46 H4ns: i don't mind, i need to make it faster... 21:55:08 huangjs: try reading the keys first, filter on the client side, only insert non-dupes 21:55:09 huangjs, is there any contention on that table? 21:55:11 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:55:21 huangjs: you'll have to be careful with your isolation level though. 21:55:23 huangjs, if there's no contention, batch as many as you can together 21:55:31 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has joined #lisp 21:55:43 if there are other users querying that table... insert fewer at once 21:55:48 there's no contention, batch makes sense 21:56:23 no point in batching beyond a certain size, though - you'll just waste time allocating huge buffers. 21:56:31 yeah 21:56:38 try a few thousand records at once. 21:58:16 H4ns: thanks, if that's the only way... it sucks 21:58:19 -!- add^_ [~add^_@m90-141-53-95.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: add^_] 21:58:23 huangjs: why? 21:58:25 what I'd do is use COPY and stream the values to psql on stdin 21:58:38 or extend postmodern to use COPY 21:58:59 github:mcna/Postmodern has copy support, fwiw 21:59:18 ok, so how is type->(monomorphic list) for an example of polymorphic parametrism? 21:59:24 H4ns: filtering on the client side is lame, doesn't scale 21:59:59 huangjs: "lame", "doesn't scale", these are not things that i concern myself with. 22:00:09 H4ns: ok :) 22:00:15 huangjs: does it work? is it a solution to this year's problem? then do it. 22:00:21 haha 22:00:52 ok ok, i'll do a batch cleanup in lisp 22:00:56 huangjs: you could also mess around with triggers that prevent the insert from actually happening. 22:01:36 and possibly disable foreign key constraints 22:01:56 or any constraint 22:01:56 H4ns: ah, that might be what I'm looking for, another option is to handle exceptions in lisp, and retry one by one if fails... 22:02:06 ok, will do 22:02:23 huangjs: if colissions are rare, an optimistic approach might work. 22:02:29 yeah 22:02:38 huangjs: welcome to the world of "engineering" :) 22:02:46 -!- _d3f [~d3f@nl1.ovpn.to] has quit [Quit: _d3f] 22:02:48 axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-88-224.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:02:48 thanks :) 22:03:36 -!- axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-88-224.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 22:06:09 axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-88-224.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:08:32 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 22:10:08 huangjs: http://www.depesz.com/2007/07/05/how-to-insert-data-to-database-as-fast-as-possible/ 22:10:22 insert into values () with 100 values, 100 of them per transaction 22:10:35 if you're not doing copy that's the faster you'll get 22:11:02 maybe you can load the data with synchronous_commit = off 22:11:28 so that you're not waiting a full disk rotation at each transaction boundary for the fsync to happen, yet not risk corrupting your data 22:11:50 you would have to have a way to detect failure conditions and restart your import from the right place 22:13:20 reading the backlog consider fe[nl]ix suggestion to add COPY FROM support to postmodern so that you can stream values 22:13:23 -!- rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Quit: rpg] 22:13:33 I wonder if a binary COPY would help much, I'm not sure about that 22:13:45 -!- bitonic [~user@027cae25.bb.sky.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 22:13:46 -!- lispm [~lispm@g224046134.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:13:47 dim: thanks. I don't want to turn off synchronous commit, but maybe I should use a new pg instance 22:13:56 lispm [~lispm@g224046134.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 22:14:00 -!- lispm [~lispm@g224046134.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Client Quit] 22:14:07 dim: COPY sounds good, 22:14:10 if you want to manage data errors in COPY, client side code is needed, dichotomy is the obvious approach as in pgloader 22:14:37 really, you won't have data corruption due to synchronous_commit being off, so think twice about it 22:15:45 VieiraN [~VieiraN@189.110.154.209] has joined #lisp 22:18:58 Fare: about your remark, PostgreSQL 9.2 features a very nice group commit implementation allowing to reach 14k writing tps on a laptop, see http://pgeoghegan.blogspot.fr/2012/06/towards-14000-write-transactions-on-my.html 22:19:38 dim: ok, i'll try. so COPY + Trigger + dichotomy(optional) will allow me to insert fast without worrying duplicated keys... 22:19:51 what that trigger is all about already? 22:19:52 dim: i'll turn off the sync 22:20:14 remember you can turn off the sync per session (connection) or per transaction with the SET command 22:20:19 dim: to check key exists 22:20:25 that's what make it real safe for production use 22:20:26 dim: ah yes 22:20:42 dim: I should do that 22:20:54 you can even have a batch role and ALTER ROLE batch SET synchronous_commit TO off; so that you get the settin gonly for that role 22:21:03 there's more than one way to do it 22:22:02 dim: awesoem 22:22:10 create role batch login in role inherit; allows you to create the role with the right set of ACLs and maintain them thereafter 22:22:49 as in it gets the same ACLs than at login (inherit) 22:23:42 about that trigger, if all you're doing is raising an error for duplicate content, just use a UNIQUE index and be done 22:24:17 dim: sync commit off made it 10x faster 22:24:49 that's not on a single SATA disk then :) 22:24:53 dim: you mean to simply ignore the error (using dichotomy?) 22:25:01 dim: it's a RAID1 22:25:36 read about pgloader for that dichotomy reference, it's only about how to find an error in a batch of rows sent with the COPY protocol/command 22:26:01 you re send half the batch until you find the line erroring out so that you can save it away and still load the rest of the data 22:26:15 dim: will do. thanks for the advice, very helpful :) 22:26:58 I have a project to maybe rewrite pgloader from python to lisp someday, I need to find some time (read, money) and do that :) 22:27:18 so by all means contribute a COPY TO support to postmodern meanwhile :) 22:28:06 https://github.com/mcna/Postmodern/commits/master has some support for bulk copying. 22:28:38 look at that, I'm not looking for a couple of months and there it is :) (thanks for pointing that out H4ns) 22:29:24 it is not merged to marijn's repository because it is undocumented and acl specific right now. should not be too hard to get ported to other lisps though 22:29:50 I think I remember that part now 22:30:52 -!- kmels [~kmels@HSI-KBW-078-043-223-122.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:34:13 n00b6502 [~ceti331@host81-157-102-115.range81-157.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 22:34:14 -!- qptain_Nemo [~qN@81-235-52-30-no79.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:35:26 qptain_Nemo [~qN@81-235-52-30-no79.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 22:36:07 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:36:51 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has joined #lisp 22:41:47 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has quit [Quit: Automatic restart triggered due to persistent lag. Freenode staff: If this is happening too frequently, please set a nickserv freeze on my account, and once my connection is stable, unfreeze the account and /kill me to trigger a reconnect.] 22:43:30 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has joined #lisp 22:48:15 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:48:32 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has joined #lisp 22:49:55 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:50:09 -!- n00b6502 [~ceti331@host81-157-102-115.range81-157.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:50:30 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has quit [Client Quit] 22:50:43 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has joined #lisp 22:55:04 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has quit [Quit: Close the world, Open the nExt] 23:05:03 dim: 14ktps? I'm impressed. But grouping hides the real numbers. How many non-grouped transactions is that? 23:05:32 also if by "laptop" you mean "with SSD" then yes, that will give you better numbers 23:06:46 -!- bjorkintosh [~bjork@ip68-13-229-200.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 23:12:07 -!- Fare [~Fare@173-9-65-97-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:14:32 tritchey [~tritchey@12.69.199.162] has joined #lisp 23:15:37 -!- nha [~prefect@koln-5d815a76.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:17:36 -!- stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-224-050.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:18:46 -!- blackwol` is now known as blackwolf 23:20:13 oh he's gone 23:20:59 well with synchronous_commit = on you can't do more than 1 fsync per disk rotation, so with a 7200 rpm disk that's about 120 fsync a second so you get 120tps 23:21:30 if you get more than 120 tps with fsync and synchronous_commit on a single 7200 rpm drive, your OS or drive or BIOS is lying to you and your data is in danger 23:21:55 justinmcp [~justinmcp@ppp118-208-3-7.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 23:22:13 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-141-76.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 23:23:32 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 23:24:15 centipedefarmer [~centipede@75-170-159-150.desm.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 23:25:13 -!- gffa [~unknown@unaffiliated/gffa] has quit [Quit: sleep] 23:25:30 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:26:05 -!- joekarma [~joekarma@S0106602ad090cd68.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: joekarma] 23:26:16 -!- justinmcp [~justinmcp@ppp118-208-3-7.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 23:26:18 -!- atsidi [~nkraft@ip72-192-253-246.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving on a jet plane...] 23:26:20 [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has joined #lisp 23:27:53 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:28:35 -!- antonv [5d7d31f9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.49.249] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 23:29:01 -!- wchun [~wchun@81-232-46-25-no38.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:29:02 nha [~prefect@koln-5d81a9c6.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 23:31:29 bjorkintosh [~bjork@ip68-13-229-200.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 23:32:40 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-141-88-88.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:33:21 -!- tiripamwe [~tiripamwe@41.221.159.83] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:33:57 kennyd [~kennyd@93-136-63-233.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 23:36:32 -!- [6502] [5e24deb2@gateway/web/freenode/ip.94.36.222.178] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 23:36:40 -!- xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.227.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:40:12 wchun [~wchun@81-232-46-25-no38.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 23:49:54 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@12.69.199.162] has quit [Quit: tritchey]