00:00:33 kanru` [~kanru@111-249-132-78.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 00:02:32 DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@1.124.184.43] has joined #lisp 00:03:39 -!- quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 00:13:48 leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has joined #lisp 00:15:31 dnolen [~user@pool-96-224-18-227.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:16:10 -!- rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:17:56 -!- bitonic [~user@027cae25.bb.sky.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:19:52 -!- iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 00:22:03 pjb: Thanks for all the help. 00:28:04 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 00:29:29 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:31:43 -!- home [~home@184.175.51.21] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:32:39 steffi_s [~marioooh@216.252.65.188] has joined #lisp 00:34:07 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-142-164.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:35:31 quazimodo [~quazimodo@CPE-58-173-140-132.cjcz1.cht.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 00:36:53 -!- tiripamwe [~tiripamwe@41.221.159.84] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:39:42 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 00:40:41 tsuru`` [~charlie@adsl-74-179-18-229.bna.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 00:41:58 -!- tsuru` [~charlie@adsl-74-179-196-75.bna.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:42:57 -!- quazimodo [~quazimodo@CPE-58-173-140-132.cjcz1.cht.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:44:09 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-2-149-100.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: gigamonkey] 00:44:49 dnolen` [~user@108.54.27.144] has joined #lisp 00:45:11 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-2-149-100.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:46:40 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-2-149-100.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 00:48:04 quazimodo [~quazimodo@CPE-58-173-140-132.cjcz1.cht.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 00:48:26 tsuru``` [~charlie@adsl-98-87-52-6.bna.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 00:48:48 -!- dnolen [~user@pool-96-224-18-227.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:49:49 -!- tsuru`` [~charlie@adsl-74-179-18-229.bna.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:49:54 -!- kanru` [~kanru@111-249-132-78.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:49:58 rootlocus [~rootlocus@124-169-14-136.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 00:56:37 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@2.80.241.128] has quit [Quit: Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/] 00:58:47 yours_truly [~yours@bas9-hamilton14-3096719723.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 00:58:47 Fare [~Fare@173-9-65-97-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 00:58:54 -!- Nisstyre_ [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:00:03 -!- yours_truly [~yours@bas9-hamilton14-3096719723.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:01:34 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.2.1] 01:03:04 AlexHe [~AndChat32@159.226.21.65] has joined #lisp 01:05:10 Nisstyre_ [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 01:09:15 noiy [~user@h-72-33.a146.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 01:09:30 Yuuhi` [benni@p5483BDBF.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 01:10:38 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483BD81.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:15:11 -!- stardiviner [~stardivin@218.74.177.64] has quit [Quit: my website: http://stardiviner.dyndns-blog.com/] 01:15:23 leo2007 [~leo@124.248.202.119] has joined #lisp 01:16:53 -!- add^_ [~add^_@m90-131-127-166.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: add^_] 01:17:09 stardiviner [~stardivin@218.74.177.64] has joined #lisp 01:19:35 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 01:20:21 -!- stardiviner [~stardivin@218.74.177.64] has quit [Client Quit] 01:22:02 -!- Jubb [~ghost@pool-108-28-0-134.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:24:36 Jubb [~ghost@pool-108-28-0-134.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:26:03 -!- Zemyla [~zemyla@ec2-50-19-77-190.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:26:30 ISF [~ivan@189.61.221.122] has joined #lisp 01:26:56 -!- booguie [~booguie@wsip-98-172-168-236.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:27:30 paul0 [~paul0@186.222.48.210] has joined #lisp 01:27:45 Zemyla [~zemyla@ec2-50-19-77-190.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has joined #lisp 01:33:41 -!- Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-96-255-130-43.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 01:33:52 -!- leo2007 [~leo@124.248.202.119] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:34:23 peterhil [~peterhil@91-157-48-51.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 01:34:39 pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has joined #lisp 01:35:06 meiosis [~user@180.168.30.174] has joined #lisp 01:39:45 is there a non-macro equivalent to this: (defmacro n-reduce (fn &body arguments) `(apply ,fn (append ,@arguments))) 01:40:15 (apply fn (apply #'append arguments))? 01:42:11 tsuru```` [~charlie@adsl-74-179-18-67.bna.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 01:42:54 Bike: thanks. 01:43:43 -!- tsuru``` [~charlie@adsl-98-87-52-6.bna.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:50:01 prxq_ [~mommer@mnhm-4d01395f.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 01:50:23 gurrag [~gurrag@bb-216-195-184-91.gwi.net] has joined #lisp 01:50:23 -!- gurrag [~gurrag@bb-216-195-184-91.gwi.net] has quit [Changing host] 01:50:23 gurrag [~gurrag@unaffiliated/gurrag] has joined #lisp 01:51:25 -!- tsuru```` [~charlie@adsl-74-179-18-67.bna.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 01:53:25 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-5f75c7b5.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:53:56 echo-area [~user@182.92.247.2] has joined #lisp 01:59:33 stardiviner [~stardivin@218.74.179.66] has joined #lisp 02:02:42 -!- urandom__ [~user@p54B0E227.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:03:32 well, a CL script helps umontreal's student radio carry out statistical analyses on Quebec's elections. Called the important results about the same time or much before the big media chains... and that includes hacking a script to pump data from the govt's servers in 20 minutes, without any preliminary information. Lisp is a fine scripting language, *and* performs computations quickly ;) 02:04:16 -!- tali713 [~user@c-24-118-58-11.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:04:52 nice 02:05:02 depending on what you call "scripting" 02:05:21 I associate (shell) scripting with a lot of calling external programs (or libraries) 02:05:42 Fare: well, grab data over an unexposed json-y interface, scrape the relevant bits with a regex, and parse rows as JS arrays. 02:05:49 Bike: which would you opt to use in practise given that algorithm? 02:06:33 -!- dnolen` [~user@108.54.27.144] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:06:35 plus some hand-driven initial scripting with the usual wget/sed/awk and some editing in emacs. 02:08:37 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@91-157-48-51.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Quit: Must not waste too much time here...] 02:09:27 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-134-227.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 02:09:29 -!- jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@bl18-65-172.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: jcazevedo] 02:11:15 magnificrab: if I wanted a function I'd use a function 02:12:26 dnolen [~user@pool-96-224-18-227.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:13:46 -!- pavelpenev [~quassel@85-130-11-8.2073813645.shumen.cablebg.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:14:38 -!- impulse [~impulse@bas3-toronto48-1176441543.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:14:55 Always go with the function! 02:14:59 Bad macro, bad. 02:15:10 Bike: explain? is there any case where the above problem is better solved one way or the other? from a code clarity perspective, i prefer the macro, it's also slightly faster in execution 02:15:13 pavelpenev [~quassel@85-130-11-8.2073813645.shumen.cablebg.net] has joined #lisp 02:16:33 How does that macro behave like REDUCE? 02:17:56 ThomasH: it doesn't in the broad sense 02:17:58 magnificrab: with macros you can't use funcall, apply and so on. the macro's only faster because it can do the equivalent of apply #'append at macroexpansion time, since the arguments have to be known then. so for example (n-reduce #'+ some-list) won't work 02:18:09 -!- paul0 [~paul0@186.222.48.210] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:18:14 the function name is poorly thought out 02:18:27 That was confusing me. 02:18:45 ThomasH: the rationale was that at the time, i was only considering arithmetic operations 02:18:50 -!- rootlocus [~rootlocus@124-169-14-136.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 02:21:08 pkhuong, do you use run-program? 02:21:30 *Fare* tries to prop xcvb-driver:run-program/ and inferior-shell:run 02:22:11 Bike: i assume (n-reduce #'+ some-list) works fine in the repl because macroexpansion and runtime are essentially the same? 02:22:27 fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-68-174-154-238.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:23:12 magnificrab: my mistake. I meant (funcall #'n-reduce #'+ some-list), I suppose 02:23:44 CrLF0710 [~user@223.240.73.34] has joined #lisp 02:23:47 Fare: nope, too brittle. 02:23:52 :( 02:23:55 brittle? how so? 02:24:09 I tried hard to make it robust (though it took me a few iterations) 02:24:33 I've had bad experience when calling run-program in a tight loop on SBCL. 02:24:38 I believe only the latest quicklisp from last month has a decent version 02:24:48 oh. tight loop. 02:24:54 It might be better now, but drakma and cl-ppcre were enough. 02:25:11 so it was a sbcl issue? 02:25:30 I thought the race conditions in sb-ext:run-program had been fixed 02:26:08 Fare: definitely. ~1-1.5 year ago, though. 02:26:56 -!- pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:29:00 rootlocus [~rootlocus@124-169-14-136.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 02:29:11 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 02:33:02 -!- steffi_s [~marioooh@216.252.65.188] has quit [Quit: zzzz] 02:33:04 -!- 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[~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:28:51 have any of you guys played around with scala yet? 04:30:09 -!- qptain_Nemo [~qN@81-235-52-30-no79.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:30:18 -!- tali713` is now known as tali713 04:31:34 I brushed up against it in my previous job 04:34:09 -!- sabalaba [~Adium@2602:306:cfc8:8c30:d1a:3433:517d:d0d8] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:34:49 what did you think of it, compared to cl? 04:36:13 i prefer cl. scala seemed very irregular by comparison 04:37:11 hmmm. the syntax is throwing me off a tiny bit. 04:37:50 bjorkintosh: Slowest compiler around. Also, sbt is one of the worst build tools that I've ever seen. But this is probably off-topic here, so I'll leave it at that. 04:37:51 it didn't help that the elder masters of the codebase had imposed a "don't use type declarations" ethos, so it was very hard to figure out what type was required in that function that you just want to get working dammit! 04:37:53 H4ns: which variant you running on your pi? 04:38:30 ArmyOfBruce, i got that. but compared to clojure, i think it is pretty fast. 04:38:45 -!- ThomasH [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/thomash] has left #lisp 04:38:52 bjorkintosh: I'll respond in PM. 04:39:12 thanks. 04:40:23 mritz [~textual@cpe-66-25-166-122.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:41:06 bjorkintosh: for a more cl-relevant comparison: in cl I feel I am thinking about the problem i am trying to solve; in scala I feel like I am trying to solve the problem of scala. but that's possibly because i wasn't so familiar with it. HTH. 04:43:44 -!- lolsuper_ [~veer@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:43:58 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-126-181.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:44:09 lolsuper_ [~veer@pool-173-65-234-164.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:44:09 -!- lolsuper_ [~veer@pool-173-65-234-164.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 04:44:09 lolsuper_ [~veer@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 04:46:09 -!- aslan69 [~aslan69@c-75-71-21-183.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: aslan69] 04:49:12 wizaqua [~usorid@c-76-23-254-105.hsd1.ct.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:50:04 I'm looking for a textbook on AI that covered inference engines that operate on the system's own software. Anybody know a title? 04:50:57 Well, I guess that would cover any expert system written in Lisp. I don't have references handy, but you should find a lot of papers about them in the AIMs. 04:52:33 pjb I have oodles and oodles of PDFs and google websites of AI researhers /talking about/ self-reflexive reasoning inference. But I would like to see some hard examples. I can't find any. Just more talk 04:53:06 Goertzel and Schmidhuber and Eliezer Yudkowsky... talking atalking talking 04:53:08 no doing 04:54:16 benny [~user@i577A72F8.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 04:55:32 http://nl.ijs.si/~damjan/fs-ai.html 04:55:49 http://www.idsia.ch/~juergen/goedelmachine.html 04:56:14 wizaqua: I'd start browsing from the olders papers; http://publications.csail.mit.edu/ai/browse/0000browse.shtml 04:56:40 thanks 04:56:43 wizaqua: now, about software, it was done two or three computer generations before today, so it's really hard to find sources. 04:57:27 Perhaps browsing sites like http://www.softwarepreservation.org/projects/LISP/ or http://www.bitsavers.org/ 04:57:52 But programs written on punched cards are most probably not available in computer readable forms anymore 04:58:46 The best you can do is to find a paper with a source almost complete and without too many typoes and errors, and try to transcribe it. See what I mean at http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/small-cl-pgms/wang.html 04:59:17 Notice also how PAIP is almost entirely dedicated to _rewrite_ old "classical" AI programs in Common Lisp. 05:00:31 is this stuff considered performing inference on a program itself? 05:01:13 chitofan [dcff028a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.220.255.2.138] has joined #lisp 05:02:02 Some expert systems compiled the rules into common lisp indeed. 05:02:06 s/common// 05:02:59 And there's the funny anecdote of that expert system which was fed with a rule to remove all the unused rules, which happily removed that rule first. 05:03:22 (memory was small then, so it was important to remove useless rules). 05:03:24 lolprog [~let@94-225-44-126.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 05:04:51 pjb 05:04:53 The basic idea is that the agent operates in an environment, and it proves theorems about it's own code. These theorems are used to re-write portions of the code whenver a re-write is found to be useful. 05:05:09 Now, I'd love to have access to a computer readable source of all those old programs, but that said, they're usually very badly programmed, and you wouldn't want to do anything with them (but run them on a virtual museum virtual machine. 05:05:12 If you look at the dates on this website (1990s!) http://nl.ijs.si/~damjan/fs-ai.html 05:05:19 why has noone ever actually written something like this? 05:05:27 wizaqua: yes, this is perfectly doable with lisp. 05:05:39 pjb Where is a textbook on this? 05:06:00 PAIP I think is one of the main texts 05:06:15 No text books. It was research, so at most you will have papers. It was AI before the AI winter, so they'll be old papers, and everybody will have erased their minds about them. 05:08:09 -!- mritz [~textual@cpe-66-25-166-122.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 05:08:49 From the way they talk about it, formal self-reference (reflexivity, "meta-programming" whatever you name it) appears to be a solid topic from AI. Why no books? 05:09:47 Does "Throw the baby with the bathwater" ring a bell? 05:10:01 -!- rootlocus [~rootlocus@124-169-14-136.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:10:21 wizaqua: my advice, read all those old AIM memos, and other old papers, and write the text book yourself. 05:11:09 Don't expect any help from the main stream: they're all invested in statistical methods, and highly parallel algorithms like neural networks and stuff. 05:11:39 They don't feel symbolic reasoning to be interesting anymore. :-( 05:12:08 I see 05:12:27 Given all the talk about it, I find it bizarre noone has written some paper discussing a system 05:12:46 Use google, you will find papers. 05:14:10 There are also text books about expert systems. 05:15:32 Well, there's still some works done in symbolic reasoning, for example in CyC/OpenCyC, and other such works related to ontology, etc. 05:17:44 right right 05:17:45 I understand 05:17:55 I've already done the wumpus world and the knowledge base 05:17:59 KB 05:18:13 I'd like to see an expert system that reasons about programs themselves. 05:20:31 Chapter 16 of PAIP is about Expert Systems. 05:21:38 It talks about MYCIN and EMYCIN 05:22:07 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@37.99.55.162] has joined #lisp 05:22:07 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@37.99.55.162] has quit [Changing host] 05:22:07 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 05:22:59 when Yudkowsku and the singularitans talk about self-reflexive and self-modifying programs... are they re-hashing something thas has been known about for 70 years? OR are they talking about something that has never been built? 05:23:29 It's more something somewhat theorical. 05:23:31 BUT 05:23:41 you could consider that a whole system is a single program. 05:23:54 there's no reason to discriminate syscalls from function calls. 05:24:05 So applications are just subroutines of the OS. 05:24:26 Therefore when you compile a program on a unix system and then use that program: you've modified the whole system. 05:24:50 If debugging and compiling a new version of a program is done autonomously, then you have a self modifying system/program. 05:24:58 Here is a description of what one of these would look like v 05:24:59 ftp://ftp.idsia.ch/pub/juergen/gmAGI.pdf 05:26:01 You can even use a linux system to compile a new kernel module, unload the old one, and reload the new one. 05:26:12 Noo host ftp.idsia.ch 05:27:22 Can't get it. Can you put gmAGI.pdf somewhere I can fetch? 05:27:30 poporoplo 05:27:55 -!- leo2007 [~leo@216.185.105.36] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 05:28:00 pon pon petit patapon. 05:28:06 >_> 05:29:12 Well, also "self modifying" code is also used in JITC and other such low level techniques. 05:31:15 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-50-228.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:31:26 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-2-149-100.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: gigamonkey] 05:33:11 i have re-uploaded the PDF to a new site 05:33:15 http://www.operatorchan.org/z/src/gmAGI.pdf 05:33:21 Thanks. 05:33:30 I could get it from google too. 05:34:09 leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has joined #lisp 05:34:32 There's a system that dynamically recompiled methods of objects, for each object. Therefore it could put them close to the object, and use short PC relative addressing, which made the system much more faster than normal systems. 05:34:35 -!- em is now known as em_ 05:35:29 I heard some things about automatic code optimization in college 05:37:09 -!- em_ is now known as em 05:42:54 are you reading the PDF now? 05:43:47 yes, I browsed it. 05:46:08 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@1.124.184.43] has quit [Quit: Bye] 05:46:20 -!- meiosis [~user@180.168.30.174] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 05:46:23 -!- lolprog [~let@94-225-44-126.access.telenet.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 05:47:00 -!- anon119 [~bman@c-98-238-210-132.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 05:52:34 -!- dnolen [~user@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:59:20 pjb Do you agree that this has been talked about often? 05:59:25 -!- lolsuper_ [~veer@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:59:55 wizaqua: Yes. 06:00:11 _veer [~veer@pool-173-65-234-164.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 06:00:12 -!- _veer [~veer@pool-173-65-234-164.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 06:00:12 _veer [~veer@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 06:00:43 guaq [gua@hilla.kapsi.fi] has joined #lisp 06:00:49 wizaqua: I've talked more often about metafor than actually used it (0 times), or programmed a similar system (0 times). 06:01:03 -!- ISF [~ivan@189.61.221.122] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:01:15 http://www.lehigh.edu/~amsp/2005/03/metafor-natural-language-programming.html 06:01:43 -!- guaq is now known as guaqua 06:02:06 -!- steffi_s [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1168074916.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: zzzz] 06:03:50 Talk is cheap, we can do it without a budget. 06:04:31 woudshoo [~user@ironhead.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 06:05:21 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.196.84] has joined #lisp 06:05:58 -!- gf3 is now known as wangf3 06:08:03 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-169-80-136.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:08:30 -!- Natch [~Natch@c-1dcce155.25-4-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:08:37 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-169-80-136.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 06:08:53 wow, people weren't kidding when they said ccl was fast. 06:09:39 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@91-119-59-123.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:12:28 Natch [~Natch@c-1dcce155.25-4-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 06:17:44 mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has joined #lisp 06:17:44 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has quit [Changing host] 06:17:44 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 06:21:49 haha http://www.lehigh.edu/~amsp/2005/03/metafor-natural-language-programming.html 06:22:00 VVHLL 06:22:06 "very very high level language" 06:24:57 alama [~textual@stgt-5f701984.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 06:25:32 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Quit: Life is too short] 06:25:36 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:28:53 -!- joekarma [~joekarma@70-36-57-169.dyn.novuscom.net] has quit [Quit: joekarma] 06:28:57 Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 06:29:08 -!- Amadiro [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp0217.bb.online.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 06:32:00 wizaqua: yes, but also, a system that programs itself. 06:32:15 The input can be anything you want. 06:33:32 quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 06:33:41 what does that mean? 06:33:45 "anything you want" 06:36:22 It can be the result of a NLP analysis of the user story, or it can be the result of any kind of "input sensors" analysis (web crawling, camera image recognition, microphone sound analysis, etc). 06:37:05 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:37:11 Imagine the system that programs itself embedded in a bigger "robotic" system. 06:38:46 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.196.84] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:39:41 Well i think there needs to be some sort of objective function to maximize. 06:39:43 Like a reward 06:39:46 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@5.34.28.1] has joined #lisp 06:39:46 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@5.34.28.1] has quit [Changing host] 06:39:46 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 06:41:11 http://nl.ijs.si/~damjan/fs-ai.html 06:42:53 It can be a very high level function. 06:42:59 And it can also self modify. 06:43:31 A system needs to ensure its autonomy: energy, maitainance (= money). 06:43:56 That shoud be a good starting point as a function to maximize. 06:44:32 After that, it can automatically include more "moral" aspects to optimize (survival of its maintainers, etc). 06:45:21 mvilleneuve_ [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:45:51 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:46:24 wizaqua: otherwise, in general notice how research projects are not there to produce usable/commercializable products. Researchers only go up to publication of a paper. After that, it's up to the private sector to do the product development needed. 06:46:25 i almost see what you are getting at here 06:47:03 You can't really reproach to researchers stopping researching a direction, if nobody follow them developing products from their initials papers. 06:47:26 (and therefore earning money to finance those researches). 06:48:06 "Basic research project, 1996-1998, extended to 2001" "Proposed timetable and results achieved". Good! 06:49:02 Now I agree with you that the purpose of commercial corporations is not to do R&D to develop new products. It's only to earn more money the next quarter than this quarter. 06:49:39 For further reflection see http://venusproject.org/ and http://www.thrivemovement.com/ etc. 06:49:52 Mister5 [~Mister5@vpn01.tsunagarumon.com] has joined #lisp 06:52:18 oh this stuff 06:52:32 what can we conclude? That AI's are too expensive to maintain? :) 06:52:33 research is a resource gamble 06:52:55 rresearch may or mayy not produce efficiency savings 06:53:48 speculating on those unproven gambles is politics and economics 06:53:49 what about this thing where if machines begin to manufacture copies of themselves 06:53:52 n00b6502: Which is not saying much. 06:54:23 wizaqua: that while individuals may have some goals, very few of us can progress toward them because the "machines" we're cogs of (corporations, academia) don't have those same goals. 06:54:26 research produces a tanglible benefit when the resources saved exceed the resources gambled on performing the research (e.g. testing designs..) 06:54:46 test a new design, the new design may be more efficient... you dont know till you build it 06:54:55 Basically, you need to first be a successful cog, and become a multimillionaire, before you have the means and freedom to advance your goals. 06:55:03 if it isn't.. it was a waste of resources building the test :) 06:55:08 pjb yeah well that's pretty obviously true 06:55:30 most scientific research today is all about big pharma and cancer cures 06:55:38 -!- Mister5 [~Mister5@vpn01.tsunagarumon.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:55:41 so like foundational issues in biology are being utterly ignored 06:56:36 Notice that the same is true for an AI agent. Unless it can archieve autonomy (resource or financial, and political) it'll be a slave to Apple (poor Siri), or to IBM (poor Watson). 06:56:47 -!- woudshoo [~user@ironhead.xs4all.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 06:57:19 ai takes energy to run.. who benefits from running it 06:57:41 we already have supercomputers in our head :) AI will compete with humans for finite resources 06:58:13 if we could make true AI of the sci-fi variety the likely outcome would be evolution would wither the human brain 06:58:29 since it would become like the apendix.. an unneccasery organ 06:58:30 I think this conversation could help with a discussion of scarcity 06:58:40 Alice3 [~Alice@cpc3-grim12-0-0-cust856.12-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 06:59:01 as pjb would probably agree... the gers of the free market are not concerned with making resources more plentiful. They want them to be more scarce. 06:59:20 thats when people acheive greater power 06:59:28 there the problem is power rather than the free market. 06:59:43 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-yukycxxcsdrqdjmu] has joined #lisp 06:59:43 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-yukycxxcsdrqdjmu] has quit [Changing host] 06:59:43 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 06:59:55 Section42L [~chatzilla@CPE18593345ef4c-CM18593345ef49.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 07:00:14 -!- Section42L [~chatzilla@CPE18593345ef4c-CM18593345ef49.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has left #lisp 07:00:59 I've been looking around, and it looks like SBCL, CCL, and the Sun JVM all use the same general type of GC, generational copying. What's a good modern review of GC techniques? I'm wondering what else there is; is it really just copying and mark-sweep and so on? 07:01:22 scarce materials costs more (because they are scarce). 07:01:40 Bike: there are papers about GC. There are multi-threaded, parallel, etc GC algorithms. 07:01:41 efficiency = reducing your use of expensive (scarce) materials 07:01:52 and substituting them with abundant (cheap) ones 07:01:54 -!- quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:02:06 -!- antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:02:12 n00b6502: you can either work on increasing efficiency, or on removing scarcity. 07:02:34 the gears and forces of the market are also not concerned with efficiency at all 07:02:44 a free market wants more and more consumption 07:02:45 pjb: I have a review I found in SBCL comments open, but it's twenty years old. I'm especially interested in multiprocessing (which this paper doesn't cover at all) 07:03:08 people want more consumption.. the flaws of the market are emergent from the underlying constituents 07:03:12 Eg, you can be very efficient, using radio to let 9 billion customers to listen to one musician. Or you can remove scarcity entirely, allowing people to copy freely recordings. 07:03:36 quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 07:03:46 In a free market, natural gas power plants BURN OFF gas into the air at night during off-peak hours. Why? Because storing the gas is more expensive that burning it off. 07:03:51 at the minute society doesn't reward people who give music aaway 07:03:54 That's not efficiency. quite the opposite 07:04:12 n00b6502: there's no reward when there's scarcity. 07:04:35 usually this type of discussion is about power rather than market 07:04:45 as in "power of some individuals over others" 07:04:51 n00b6502: if the musician can obtain his food and shelter and his computer games and other toys from the "society", what else would he need from rendering his musical production scarse? 07:05:06 jack_rabbit [~kyle@c-98-212-128-247.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:05:25 at the minute, the creators are resource consumers like any other 07:05:43 -!- superflit [~superflit@65-128-42-92.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:05:44 society gives feedback through the market as to if using those resources is wanted or not 07:05:49 And remember that food is produced by 1%-3% in the occident. 07:06:13 food is an issue of resources rather than labour 07:06:26 And that a house costs less than 10,000 to build, all the rest of the cost is political cost extracted thru artificial scarcity. 07:06:28 finite earth.. how do we divide it up and ration it 07:06:44 n00b6502: run the fucking numbers! 07:06:59 Bike: it is a bit old at the moment, but you might find http://www.memorymanagement.org/ useful. 07:07:12 one thing to remember is that money tracks information of human heirachy rather than resourrces 07:07:43 Much obliged, ArmyOfBruce. 07:07:48 but remove money... power and heirachy dont go away. those come from many sources - e.g. popularity, military etc 07:07:55 superflit [~superflit@65-128-43-10.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 07:07:58 n00b6502: besides, when you remove scarcity of energy, you can move to space, get to the asteroids and the stars. 07:07:59 communist countries still had power-structure 07:08:18 stepnem [~stepnem@82.208.57.182] has joined #lisp 07:08:26 life is about rationing fniite resources; entropy always goes up which is why we experience scarcity 07:08:39 Bike: and I'm talking to them about an update of that including more readable forms. We'll see. 07:08:40 n00b6502: that is, communist countries still have their psychopaths. 07:08:43 antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 07:08:47 life is a complex object offset by greater entropy production of its fuel source 07:09:16 n00b6502: thermodynamics only applies to closed systems. The Earth IS NOT a closed system! 07:09:18 we will always have energy scarcity - because we can multiply faster than any technological advance 07:09:20 ArmyOfBruce: this looks pretty helpful, thanks. 07:09:28 thermodynamics applies end of. its reality everywhere 07:09:53 we get a steady energy input from the sun and maximize its entropy 07:10:01 And with the latest cosmologic theories, it's not even sure the Universe is a closed system! 07:10:11 Would it be possible to move un-Lisp-related chat to elsewhere? 07:10:24 Ah, lispers are awaking! :-) 07:10:27 the laws of physics as we can experience them show thermodynamics hold 07:10:45 mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.35.99] has joined #lisp 07:11:19 -!- tensorpudding [~michael@108.87.23.209] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:11:36 "when you remove scarcity of energy.. you can move to space.." .. space theoretically has a lot of energy from the sun.. but the conditions for complex life are scarce. see issues on mars/venus 07:11:54 ivan-kanis [~user@nantes.visionobjects.com] has joined #lisp 07:12:16 n00b6502: there's zero issue on mars or venus, given all the energy you want. 07:12:32 no one will ever have all the energy they want 07:12:48 Even in the empty space, if you have energy, you can produce matter E=mc². 07:13:00 fossil fuels had EROEI of 100:1 at the start, our response was to multiply population expoentially until it became scarce :) 07:13:15 n00b6502: as long as psychopaths want to make energy scarse to gain money and power, yes. 07:13:31 sure if you have energy you can do anything. Move to the sahara desert ... plenty of solar power there. see how it pans out for you :) 07:13:46 [03:10] Would it be possible to move un-Lisp-related chat to elsewhere? 07:13:48 lol 07:13:59 Hm? 07:14:12 n00b6502: see what they're doing in Arabia and in Kuwait. 07:14:32 Yes, anyways I must go out now. 07:15:00 energy is scarce which is why people want power 07:15:11 money is just an intermediate variable 07:15:23 performs rationing and optmization 07:15:49 [03:13] n00b6502: as long as psychopaths want to make energy scarse to gain money and power, yes. 07:15:53 pjb's got it. 07:15:58 conversation over 07:15:59 :) 07:16:31 energy is scarce because people multiply faster than advances. the result is individual survival chances are increased for psychopaths 07:16:45 countries with famine have the fastest rising populations.. 07:16:48 I mean, unless there's a Cybersyn upgrade written in Lisp...? 07:17:07 Bike: if you find the memorymanagement.org stuff useful  they also have a GC (Memory Pool System or MPS) from the Harlequin days. It is under a viral license, but they're happy to talk to people about licensing. They'll have a new and very much updated release in the next couple of weeks. 07:17:37 ArmyOfBruce: Oh, I'm just reading out of curiosity, but thank you, I'll look at that. 07:18:07 n00b6502: that's wrong. Look at the population curves. When the standard of living reaches as certain level, people stop making babies. 07:18:33 Bike: and feel free to PM me about the MPS stuff if you're interested. Too much uninteresting discussion here to pay much attention. 07:18:40 would that be the case without rationing - fear of dividing resourcess with kids 07:18:49 ArmyOfBruce: Thanks. I probably won't get to it right now. 07:18:51 I for one dont have kids because i dont want the expense of property 07:19:07 without kids my property expenses are minimized 07:20:03 n00b6502: go watch stuff on http://venusproject.org/ 07:20:09 very familiar with it 07:20:45 -!- pnathan [~anunknown@75.87.250.229] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 07:20:51 i have a problem with the way they present "remove money and eveything will be abundant" - its a massive oversimplification 07:21:24 its true there are people with 1000x resource claim of others 07:21:41 but thats down to power , not the inheerent monetary system.. remove money and they'd still have power e.g. through military 07:22:27 Yes, they'd still have the hit men to kill researchers who try to distribute free energy systems. 07:22:37 you're not a free energy nut are you 07:22:43 I am. 07:22:51 free means unlimited 07:22:55 We can simplify this a little bit 07:22:58 pjb 07:22:59 reality is finite 07:23:19 Imagine some technology allows individual households to produce power locally. (like say a neutrino antenna) 07:23:46 there will never be "free" energy , since any system that can use an abundant energy source will multiply itself until that source is scarce again - thats exactly what humans did with fossil fuels - 8X population since the industrial revolution created amazing abundance 07:23:50 n00b6502: see http://blip.tv/washingtonrepublic/energy-from-the-vacuum-part-8-challenging-the-2nd-law-of-thermodynamics-5881278 07:24:09 goood god if you're going to start challengine 2nd law ... 07:24:15 The free market does not want this. What the free market wants is centralized control of a resource that is very far away... thus requiring it to be owned and shipped across vast distances ... so that you have to employ shiphands and truck drivers --- and hence this resources "creates jobs". 07:24:19 n00b6502: it's not energy that multiplied humans, it's medecine. 07:24:39 "Challenging thermodynamics"... Oh my. 07:24:41 its energy. people could always out-multiply disease. any over-shoot waas culled by warfare 07:24:56 didi: it's a serious researched in a serious university. 07:25:11 s/ed/er/ 07:25:36 "imagine some technology allows individual households to produce power locally" .. its called a garden, you already have solar-powered nano-technology there 07:25:40 plants :) 07:25:47 didi: remember: 2nd themodynamic principle only applies to closed systems. The Earth is not a closed system. 07:25:56 In essence, what im saying is, free markets like far-away exotic resources. Like "organic tea" and "special mangos from costa rica". Because the supply chain "creates lots of jobs". Are you guys following this? 07:25:59 therefore 2nd thermodynamic principle doesn't apply on Earth. 07:26:04 LMAO 07:26:12 wizaqua: totally agree. 07:26:21 2nd law of thermodynamics underpins technology and science 07:26:33 everything we observe shows entropy increasin 07:26:33 the free market DOES NOT want you to grow food on your own land and have a local power supply like a neutrinoa antenna on top your house. 07:26:49 n00b6502: not in living organisms. 07:26:57 living organisms increase entropy 07:27:03 by consuming food 07:27:07 sunlight -> heat 07:27:22 sunlight comes in with order; living organisms maximize its entropy and produce heat 07:27:24 Totally irrelevant locally for the living organism. 07:27:36 totally relevant for your understanding of the whole system 07:27:51 living organisms are not closed systems, therefore 2nd thermodynamics principle doesn't apply. 07:27:58 solar power is just a reversion to land as the source of power 07:28:03 The whole system is the whole universe. 07:28:03 -!- Vivitron [~Vivitron@pool-98-110-213-33.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: trivial-irc-0.0.3] 07:28:04 as it was in the middle ages or roman times 07:28:17 great, launch yourself into space and see how it pans out 07:28:17 When you'll know what happens on the other side of the universe, you may come back with 2nd principle. 07:28:49 n00b6502: watch the video linked. 07:28:52 solar power or even "nutrino antenas" will simply have people fighting for land instead of oil 07:29:03 i've seen all the Venus Project materials - i''m very familiar with them. 07:29:08 i'm a peak oil/malthusian 07:29:29 note, i do not claim the market can solve our problems - i'm simply pointing out removing it can't fix them either 07:29:36 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:29:50 if we had solar power we'd just fight over land like we always did 07:29:52 Peak oil is false. Malthusian are evil. 07:29:54 its just a scaling factor 07:30:32 "malthusian" is just the observation people multiply faster than resources 07:30:43 And you're dumb do be one, if you're not amongst the 1% that would like to kill the other 99%. 07:30:53 thats completely different 07:31:05 my "malthusian" conclusion is to simply have zero kids 07:31:10 Just watch http://blip.tv/washingtonrepublic/energy-from-the-vacuum-part-8-challenging-the-2nd-law-of-thermodynamics-5881278 07:31:17 really its BS 07:31:19 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-142-164.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 07:31:39 if vacuum energy was possible, no one would have an inccentive (monetary or otherwise) to withold it 07:31:51 money is just a claim on energy 07:32:06 so even those with money know more energy is more of what they want 07:32:23 energy is useless to them until they give it to people to make something 07:33:29 with soolar power/ nutrino collectors whatever.. energy is just proportional to area - like it was in the agrarian age. why do you think that would stop people from fighting or competing for land? 07:34:39 a solar powered car wont make you any free-er than when you had a grass-powered horse 07:35:02 since you can always have more panels/ more land/ more grass/ more horses 07:35:09 c_arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-rmbjdumlcelwoyud] has joined #lisp 07:41:47 n00b6502 Orbital sun collector 07:42:30 nice idea 07:42:39 solar wind blows them away 07:42:56 orbit is becoming a dangerous environment due to debris from satelites 07:43:32 getting into orbit takes HUGE energy 07:43:47 pskosinski [~pk@czu186.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 07:43:59 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-145-250.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:44:02 USA / USSR competed in the cold war to get nuclear missile bases on the moon.. they'd have done it already if it was feasible 07:45:12 -!- Bike [~Glossina@63-229-129-146.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: sleep] 07:45:21 other than USA/USSR no other countries could contemplate a project like that 07:45:31 -!- harish [harish@nat/redhat/x-lkseccxtemyorwef] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:46:23 -!- DaDaDOSPrompt [~DaDaDOSPr@71-222-65-185.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:48:44 to produce something like an orbital solar collector, you need a society to gamble huge resource. look at the number of people who say the mars probe was a waste of money :) 07:49:00 politics will always enter it 07:49:08 jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@bl18-65-172.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 07:49:14 You can't compute a simple division. 07:49:27 i can , i'm just saying many people dont get that 07:49:35 mars probe was 30 cents per person on earth 07:49:53 but many people still react with "its wasting billions!" 07:50:15 to do planetary scale projects... you need to deal with politics. 07:50:26 So it's not a huge resource that's needed for a Marsian sonde. 07:50:36 not to send a tiny probe, no 07:50:48 to colonize mars on the other hand... 07:51:05 its currentl less hospitable than the sahara or antarctica, and less resource rich 07:51:35 and 300million miles away :) 07:52:04 to my mind studying mars is worthwhile to illustrate how scarce and unique earth is 07:53:22 mars is 1/3rd the surface area of the earth, and lacking in just about everything we take for granted here , most notably van-alan belt to preserve an atmosphere 07:54:33 given you'll never get any resources back from mars, how much resourcedo you think the average person will want to devote to mars colonization.... people inhabiting mars would probably diverge into a seperate species due to different gravity. you know how humans are at treating other species :) 07:55:22 the value on earth comes from billions of years of photosynthesis... mars on the other had is a dead rock, worse than the most inhospitable places on earth 07:58:20 Given the way humans treat earth (causing the 6th great mass extinction, in progress now) it hardly seems likely we could bring life to a dead planet :) 07:58:22 Well, I gave it a shot. It's over at 33 min. The talk about semiconductors is correct but the conclusion doesn't follow. Back to Lisp. 07:58:42 Cymew [~user@fw01d.snowmen.se] has joined #lisp 08:04:57 bitonic [~user@027cae25.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 08:07:34 punee [~punee@213-245-106-105.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 08:07:40 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 08:09:35 Actually, it's *not* correct. 08:09:52 well theres a surprise 08:10:08 Heh. 08:10:14 i missed a humongous off-topic, thank goodness 08:13:27 -!- jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@bl18-65-172.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: jcazevedo] 08:15:46 paolo_m [~user@2-228-95-110.ip190.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 08:20:11 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.13.56] has joined #lisp 08:20:11 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.13.56] has quit [Changing host] 08:20:11 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 08:20:37 Omg, crop circles? What are these links? 08:21:49 -!- quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:26:28 quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 08:26:53 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:29:22 -!- magnificrab [~duranain@202.168.106.176.dynamic.rev.eftel.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:33:36 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 08:35:50 harish [~harish@cm13.zeta234.maxonline.com.sg] has joined #lisp 08:37:46 -!- jayne [~jayne@freenode/staff/jayne] has quit [Quit: shutting down] 08:37:46 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:38:05 jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@193.136.27.164] has joined #lisp 08:38:08 jayne [~jayne@freenode/staff/jayne] has joined #lisp 08:39:04 Does the guy behind slimv hang out here? 08:41:34 *sigh* I can only write "eval" forms, not macros. 08:42:12 magnificrab [~duranain@202.168.106.176.dynamic.rev.eftel.com] has joined #lisp 08:43:01 "eval" forms are fun. Macros are nasty. :^( 08:43:13 arnsholt: I think so 08:44:46 arnsholt: iirc flip214 is not the main author but contributes to it. 08:45:13 arnsholt: I'm not the author, but I might be able to help 08:45:28 Oh, cool, thanks 08:46:11 I've got an issue I think comes from slimv, but not entirely sure what's up (more) 08:46:53 -!- magnificrab [~duranain@202.168.106.176.dynamic.rev.eftel.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:47:10 The line below the statusline (where the mode notification "-- INSERT --" and so on goes) is blanked when I'm using slimv, apparently 08:47:38 magnificrab [~duranain@202.168.106.176.dynamic.rev.eftel.com] has joined #lisp 08:47:40 arnsholt: yes, this line is (re)used to show some information ... 08:47:58 It works at first, but at some point (not sure when) it stops putting up the mode thing when I change modes 08:48:00 eg. connect to a swank, and then type "(defclass " (with the space, or an CR) 08:48:17 then you get the argument list shown in the statusline 08:48:20 Ah, right 08:48:56 you can also try ":set cmdheight=2" 08:50:12 Oh, that works. Cheers! 08:51:34 That was so OT, I thought we were in #emacs ;) 08:52:49 I know! ^_^ 08:57:23 darveh [c41732a2@gateway/web/freenode/ip.196.23.50.162] has joined #lisp 09:05:53 eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 09:07:53 add^_ [~add^_@m90-131-127-166.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 09:10:36 kiuma [~kiuma@static-217-133-17-91.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 09:11:15 kmels [~kmels@HSI-KBW-078-043-223-122.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 09:12:44 antonv [5d7d31f9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.49.249] has joined #lisp 09:15:24 milanj [~milanj_@178-223-156-24.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 09:20:27 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 09:33:52 -!- didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 09:36:07 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 09:42:31 -!- eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:55:04 -!- Sorella [~quildreen@oftn/member/Sorella] has quit [Quit: (quit :reason 'sleep)] 09:59:34 -!- antonv [5d7d31f9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.49.249] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 10:00:17 LaughingMan [~chatzilla@boccacio.fh-trier.de] has joined #lisp 10:02:09 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 10:03:29 Vivitron [~Vivitron@pool-98-110-213-33.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 10:07:38 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:07:53 mathrick [~mathrick@188.181.106.202] has joined #lisp 10:09:41 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.13.56] has joined #lisp 10:09:42 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.13.56] has quit [Changing host] 10:09:42 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 10:09:43 stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-015-002.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 10:14:31 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 10:16:04 -!- darveh [c41732a2@gateway/web/freenode/ip.196.23.50.162] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 10:18:04 Hurrah! I got to patch something. Admittedly it was just spelling... 10:18:34 strg [~strg@46.115.16.77] has joined #lisp 10:18:40 Also, quicklisp is nice 10:18:49 amen 10:19:47 is there still just one big repo for quicklisp? 10:21:57 strg: yes, it is a centralized system. 10:22:01 -!- DDR [~chatzilla@d66-183-118-10.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Quit: for the love of god this is not safe for work] 10:22:32 strg: you can certainly use the quicklisp software to create your own repository if you desire so 10:22:34 xan_ [~xan@232.Red-83-50-252.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 10:23:32 -!- echo-area [~user@182.92.247.2] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:23:40 I see. 10:25:54 ignas [~ignas@office.pov.lt] has joined #lisp 10:26:31 Is there anything good for parsing email? researchin cliki is revealing a variety of abandoned looking libraries 10:28:13 -!- piko [~piko@ip4-83-240-108-205.cust.nbox.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 10:30:51 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:35:11 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 10:41:23 varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 10:41:31 iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has joined #lisp 10:44:47 last sentence can be applied to any subject :-) 10:45:13 maxm: some look worse than others 10:45:48 would be helpful if ppl researching on cliki, would add "checked this out 2012-09-03, no good, looks abandoned, xyz is better" 10:45:50 editing is free 10:46:05 for the next guy 10:48:10 maxm: I'd be afraid of "HOW DARE YOU CRITICISE MY CODE" 10:50:47 I don't know lisp yet, I'm just looking for stuff to experiment with 10:51:33 mstevens: "abandoned looking" should not be your only selection criterium 10:52:07 mstevens: email did not change very much during the last 10 years, so just try one of the libraries. if quicklisp has them, there is a good chance that they at least do something. 10:52:49 piko [~piko@ip4-83-240-49-166.cust.nbox.cz] has joined #lisp 10:54:58 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 10:55:16 H4ns: it's certainly not the only criteria, but it definitely raises suspicion. 10:55:41 mstevens: lisp is old. 10:59:47 bioh [~bioh@217.118.81.41] has joined #lisp 11:02:14 H4ns: there is of course the "excellent! a chance to write some code!" perspective 11:02:53 mstevens: maybe you can set your assumptions and suspicions aside for a while and look at the actual code of the mail parsing libraries that are there? 11:02:58 mstevens: If there is n libraries that do something, don't write n+1st, please. 11:03:38 Patch the one that seems the least shitty. 11:04:28 pavelpenev: i don't agree - a new, complete library is better than a patched, old, shitty one. 11:05:26 H4ns: obviously this depends on a lot of things, so it's not as simple, but unless there is a really good reason to do so, why start over? 11:06:00 *mstevens* is only playing around really. I was looking for a toy project to try to learn CL and something with mail seemed appealing 11:06:42 mstevens: look at mel-base. it seems to be somewhat usable. 11:07:18 H4ns: I have a vague notion of making very basic webmail 11:08:08 just something that will read an mbox, and maybe send mails 11:08:11 pavelpenev: our "library problem", if we really have it, is mostly due to too many inexperienced programmers starting too many libraries. so yes, it is not as easy as "start afresh if you don't like what you see" 11:08:15 -!- xan_ [~xan@232.Red-83-50-252.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:08:19 mstevens: mel-base should be doing that. 11:08:38 xan_ [~xan@232.Red-83-50-252.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 11:09:26 sounds promising 11:10:02 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:10:42 H4ns: A lot of it is probably because quicklisp is a recent invention (I use ql:system-apropos constantly). And there were quicklisp-like solutions before, so, as I said, you need a good reason. 11:10:57 superjudge [~superjudg@37-46-176-67.customers.ownit.se] has joined #lisp 11:11:51 pavelpenev: "existing library sucks" often is a good reason. 11:12:07 -!- AlexHe [~AndChat32@159.226.21.65] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:12:33 pavelpenev: i think what would be helpful is something like a library short list that is updated by people who actually use some library. 11:13:02 kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-50-228.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 11:13:17 AlexHe [~AndChat32@159.226.21.65] has joined #lisp 11:13:18 iirc there is the stats from Quicklisp 11:13:28 pavelpenev: in fact, there is a "recommended libraries" page on cliki that is not that bad 11:13:56 -!- chitofan [dcff028a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.220.255.2.138] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 11:13:57 daimrod: aha? where? 11:14:11 yakov [~yakov@spb.nexenta.com] has joined #lisp 11:14:17 H4ns: My bucket list contains a project idea like that. list many libraries, let users submit examples, and if the library is abandoned, make it easy for a new maintainer to adopt it. 11:14:22 http://blog.quicklisp.org/2011/02/project-download-stats.html though it's a bit old :/ 11:14:54 daimrod: http://xach.com/tmp/2012-stats.txt is newer 11:15:01 asvil [~asvil@178.121.6.112] has joined #lisp 11:15:15 -!- ArmyOfBruce [~bmitchene@waywardmonkeys.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 11:15:22 pavelpenev: thanks. 11:15:24 pavelpenev: successful libraries are rarely abandoned. it is more the noise created by all the incomplete, never-used libraries that is bothersome i think 11:15:43 ArmyOfBruce [~bmitchene@waywardmonkeys.com] has joined #lisp 11:16:19 -!- stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-015-002.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 11:18:06 -!- AlexHe [~AndChat32@159.226.21.65] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:20:17 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 11:22:40 guyal [~michaelmu@108-235-117-64.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 11:23:59 Kryztof [~user@178-83-229-138.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 11:24:22 *mstevens* tries and fails to build the mel-base docs 11:25:00 I shall... report a bug. Assuming I can get onto the mailing list. 11:28:02 -!- Euthy [~euthy@unaffiliated/euthydemus] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 11:28:59 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.2.1] 11:29:05 chimpunk [~Adium@gate02-ka.flaregate.net] has joined #lisp 11:30:30 peterhil [~peterhil@gatekeeper.brainalliance.com] has joined #lisp 11:31:18 rootlocus [~rootlocus@124-169-14-136.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 11:36:55 -!- xian [xian@we-are-the-b.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:40:30 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-142-164.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:45:48 Houl [~Parmi@unaffiliated/houl] has joined #lisp 11:49:03 -!- KingsKnighted [~quassel@c-174-52-149-13.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:52:10 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 11:52:43 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:54:06 peterhil` [~peterhil@gatekeeper.brainalliance.com] has joined #lisp 11:54:48 Siliconsoul [~Siliconso@p548341d0.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:56:30 gffa [~unknown@unaffiliated/gffa] has joined #lisp 11:56:53 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@gatekeeper.brainalliance.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 11:58:12 Euthy [~euthy@unaffiliated/euthydemus] has joined #lisp 11:59:09 [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has joined #lisp 12:00:14 -!- quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:00:37 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:07:54 -!- LaughingMan [~chatzilla@boccacio.fh-trier.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:10:20 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-169-80-136.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 12:11:37 jollyG [~JollyG@KennPAT.uncc.edu] has joined #lisp 12:13:07 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-145-250.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:13:13 -!- Vivitron [~Vivitron@pool-98-110-213-33.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: trivial-irc-0.0.3] 12:13:45 bhoung [~bhoung@CPE-124-190-134-4.kqlr1.lon.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 12:14:51 -!- bhoung [~bhoung@CPE-124-190-134-4.kqlr1.lon.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Client Quit] 12:17:00 Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has joined #lisp 12:22:33 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:28:04 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.35.99] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:28:32 -!- varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:28:37 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@188.181.106.202] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:29:09 mathrick [~mathrick@188.181.106.202] has joined #lisp 12:30:50 steffi_s [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1168074916.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 12:31:36 momo-reina [~user@aa20111001946f573a9d.userreverse.dion.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 12:32:29 is anyone familiar with javascript? does it live up to lisp-in-c's-clothing? 12:33:24 momo-reina: "does it live up to", what do you mean by that? 12:33:44 lisp without s-expressions is not lisp to me. 12:34:13 fantazo [~fantazo@91-119-59-123.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 12:34:16 H4ns: I mean a lot of people say it's basically a lisp bit with c-like syntax, and since I'm not familiar with it I wanted to get someone else's opinion 12:34:56 momo-reina: it is not lisp because lisp does not have a c-like syntax 12:35:17 momo-reina: it has garbage collection, loose typing and first-class functions, so it has some of lisp's features. 12:35:39 momo-reina: I think it's worth learning it well, but not because it's like Lisp. 12:35:49 ok but is the way that programs are written similar? focus on recursion, dsl, etc. 12:35:50 i second that 12:35:57 The author of the Postmodern library also wrote this book: http://eloquentjavascript.net/ 12:36:00 -!- atsidi [~nkraft@ip72-192-253-246.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving on a jet plane...] 12:36:02 momo-reina: no. lisp does not "focus on recursion" 12:36:31 momo-reina: and in javascript, you cannot have the same type of "dsl" as in lisp because javascript has no macros. 12:36:32 Eloquent JS is pretty nice 12:36:32 Xach: thanks, will look into the book 12:36:51 Coffeescript is nice wrapper around JS, and worth looking at, but macros are the thing 12:36:57 and JS doesn't have them 12:36:59 ok so that answered my question :) 12:37:32 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@188.181.106.202] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:37:40 and is its primary domain web dev? or is it used for stand-alone apps as well? 12:38:03 momo-reina: drifting too far off-topic to be useful here 12:38:16 momo-reina: why don't you ask in a javascript channel when you're interested in javascript? 12:38:28 momo-reina: now that you understand that javascript is not lisp. 12:38:46 if you're asking about CL it's a general purpose language 12:38:51 H4ns: you're right, will do, thanks. 12:39:43 what defines lisp (not CL, but lisp) 12:40:27 n00b6502: a lisp is able to execute lisp code 12:40:30 if one is familiar with CL though, what would be the biggest factor for learning it? ubiquitousness? 12:40:37 n00b6502: for "lisp code", please see history 12:40:44 is scheme lisp 12:41:08 mace_ [~mace@109.227.15.220] has joined #lisp 12:41:27 momo-reina: that said, have a look at http://www.biwascheme.org/ 12:41:34 momo-reina: you could write biwacl 12:42:08 haha, and have it converted to js? 12:42:23 Yes. 12:42:56 There's also parenscript, although I've never had cause to use it 12:43:00 http://common-lisp.net/project/parenscript/ 12:43:15 phrixos: i'm familiar with parenscript thanks 12:43:19 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-169-80-136.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: gigamonkey] 12:44:34 Is CommonQt usable? 12:44:37 was just wondering what made js worth learning... 12:45:03 it runs in browsers... 12:45:05 js is worth learning due to ubiquity in web 12:45:05 mace_: yes 12:45:52 yeah ok that's what i figured but wanted to check in with others who had more experience :) 12:46:17 ok good. Having trouble setting all up and was wondering if its even worth it 12:46:48 js,lua,python have similarities, all have some elements of lisp wrapped in more conventional syntax..js is a good one to learn because of its ubiquity in browsers 12:46:53 momo-reina: you need to go to a javascript channel with your javascript questions. 12:47:40 -!- gurrag [~gurrag@unaffiliated/gurrag] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:48:27 -!- momo-reina [~user@aa20111001946f573a9d.userreverse.dion.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:49:54 snearch [~snearch@f053007132.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 12:50:34 sambio [~sam@190.57.227.107] has joined #lisp 12:50:37 *Xach* should document exactly which libraries are needed to load commonqt 12:51:37 -!- alama [~textual@stgt-5f701984.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 12:55:18 MoALTz [~no@host-92-8-149-30.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 12:55:58 Does CommonQt have some sort of ffi, if I say want to use a third party C++ Qt class 12:59:23 MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-8-154-45.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 13:01:54 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-8-149-30.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:02:23 *Xach* waves to H4ns, the releasemeister 13:02:26 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-142-221.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 13:02:49 Xach: quicklisp is pretty cool 13:03:00 mstevens: thanks 13:03:16 *Xach* feels a "here's a way to make it cooler" coming? 13:03:27 Xach: actually no 13:03:54 Xach: well "write hundreds of high quality libraries and make them available via quicklisp", but I don't really expect you to do that 13:04:02 *Xach* takes compliment at face value 13:04:02 -!- paolo_m [~user@2-228-95-110.ip190.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:04:08 paolo_m [~user@2-228-95-110.ip190.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 13:04:27 Xach: I was just enjoying it being much less hassle than previous adventures with asdf 13:04:49 it's hard to go back, unless you do not intend to use any software from anyone else ever 13:05:19 and even then, i like it for ~/quicklisp/local-projects 13:05:56 It would be nice if we could set up our own quicklisp servers, for private libraries 13:06:36 Yes, for enterprises, it would be a nice feature. 13:06:37 It's possible now, but undocumented :( 13:06:56 gigamonkey read the code and made his own stuff, but that's a pain 13:07:16 -!- pirateking-_- [~piratekin@c-67-169-182-169.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: pirateking-_-] 13:11:53 -!- MoALTz_ [~no@host-92-8-154-45.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 13:12:56 Jubb [~ghost@pool-108-28-0-134.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:16:15 mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has joined #lisp 13:21:16 -!- jack_rabbit [~kyle@c-98-212-128-247.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:22:53 alama [~textual@stgt-5f701984.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 13:26:41 gshan [~shan@122.169.130.25] has joined #lisp 13:33:37 LaughingMan [~chatzilla@boccacio.fh-trier.de] has joined #lisp 13:36:36 tensorpudding [~michael@108.87.23.209] has joined #lisp 13:38:12 -!- Kryztof [~user@178-83-229-138.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:38:32 what's the recommended solution for html scraping? i remember something stp based? else? 13:42:08 there isn't a beautiful soup for cl. i used the stp method the last time I had to do it. 13:42:49 Dont know what is recommended but i liked klacks in closure xml (which works with html too when integrated with closure html). http://common-lisp.net/project/cxml/klacks.html 13:43:47 tsuru` [~charlie@adsl-98-87-25-58.bna.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 13:44:20 i'm going to try stp-query - this looks pretty nice: https://gist.github.com/3550384 13:44:39 scraping weitz.de to get version info? 13:44:57 Xach: no, real work, sadly 13:45:44 -!- peterhil` [~peterhil@gatekeeper.brainalliance.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:46:01 burial [burial@109.121.235.33] has joined #lisp 13:46:07 peterhil` [~peterhil@gatekeeper.brainalliance.com] has joined #lisp 13:46:07 -!- asvil [~asvil@178.121.6.112] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:46:45 -!- burial [burial@109.121.235.33] has left #lisp 13:48:08 H4ns: I think I'm definitely going to use CL next time I have some web-scraping task. That paste looks really amazing! 13:49:46 Hello everyone 13:50:20 hi 13:50:30 I've been using cl-unification to do some web scraping lately. 13:50:37 apart from stp's tendency to blow up with force at the BBC's website, CL + stp is v. effective in the role. 13:50:53 yeah i've used it for a commercial project before 13:50:58 exact same setup :) 13:51:12 had to scrape some microsoft forums that were being EOLed 13:51:52 i've got the nice task to script an asp.net based site. teh suck 13:52:00 -!- nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-65-215.w92-141.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:52:55 you're writing the website in asp, or it's written and you're scraping it? 13:53:28 Fade: pardon me? 13:53:30 :D 13:53:39 H4ns: can you borrow Needle from ita? 13:53:43 i've got the nice task to script an asp.net based site 13:53:44 no, i need to grab data off a site written in asp.net 13:53:58 which I was misparsing, but I haven't had coffee yet. 13:54:12 Fade: my grammar was not brilliant either 13:54:17 *H4ns* gets coffee, too. 13:54:29 i'm just a bit slow this morning. carry on. :) 13:54:36 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-142-221.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:54:55 nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-65-215.w92-141.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 13:54:59 H4ns: which os you have on your pi? 13:56:07 axion: raspian as of raspberrypi.org, updated this morning 13:56:28 ah...im trying to write a package for ccl arm for arch linux 13:56:38 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-180-100.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 14:01:20 which arm cores will run ccl? 14:01:35 axion: you can't just base it on aur/ccl-bin? 14:01:54 Fade: armv6l and armv7l 14:02:04 i could 14:02:07 -!- bioh [~bioh@217.118.81.41] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:02:24 ah, cool. so it will run on the pi. 14:02:30 Adlai is a #lisper, too. 14:02:53 Does ccl run on ios? 14:04:51 how does ARM compatibility work? Can armv5 stuff run on v6? 14:05:30 sykopomp: yes 14:05:38 cool 14:06:45 mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.35.99] has joined #lisp 14:08:30 sykopomp: backwards compatible 14:10:45 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-180-100.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:11:02 antonv [2e35c344@gateway/web/freenode/ip.46.53.195.68] has joined #lisp 14:11:13 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-180-100.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 14:12:16 -!- mace_ [~mace@109.227.15.220] has quit [Quit: quit] 14:12:31 coldnew [~user@27.105.52.48] has joined #lisp 14:13:09 -!- fasta_ is now known as fasta 14:17:33 -!- gabot [~eli@racket/bot/gabot] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:17:53 -!- eli [~eli@racket/eli] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:17:57 mucker [~mucker@183.83.240.198] has joined #lisp 14:18:22 [1]Siliconsoul [~Siliconso@p54834848.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:19:18 -!- steffi_s [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1168074916.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: zzzz] 14:20:00 -!- Siliconsoul [~Siliconso@p548341d0.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:20:54 -!- coldnew [~user@27.105.52.48] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:22:24 gabot [~eli@racket/bot/gabot] has joined #lisp 14:22:42 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 14:26:23 eli [~eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #lisp 14:26:24 -!- eli [~eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Changing host] 14:26:24 eli [~eli@racket/eli] has joined #lisp 14:27:10 -!- LaughingMan [~chatzilla@boccacio.fh-trier.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:29:52 -!- Cymew [~user@fw01d.snowmen.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:35:11 rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has joined #lisp 14:36:05 -!- Jubb [~ghost@pool-108-28-0-134.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:36:17 gko [~user@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 14:38:24 -!- alama [~textual@stgt-5f701984.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 14:39:22 agumonkey [~agu@235.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 14:39:38 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-88-12.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:41:18 heh, clisp upgraded-array-type for (signed-byte 8) is T? 14:42:40 et porquoi pas? 14:42:56 err, upgraded-array-element-type heh 14:43:31 i should use an irc that _actually_ has slime tab completion 14:45:52 M-x inferior-slime-mode 14:48:21 -!- bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable216.122-57-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:48:33 -!- spacefrogg is now known as spacefrogg^ 14:49:42 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 14:54:29 brandonz [~brandon@c-71-202-142-243.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:57:09 steffi_s [~marioooh@x-132-204-243-254.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 14:57:36 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-84-44-153-39.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:58:21 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 14:58:47 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 14:59:12 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-84-44-153-39.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:04:34 -!- snearch [~snearch@f053007132.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 15:04:53 -!- Houl [~Parmi@unaffiliated/houl] has quit [Quit: weil das Wetter so schön ist] 15:06:18 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:08:10 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 15:08:36 eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 15:09:49 -!- Nisstyre_ [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:12:49 -!- Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:12:57 Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has joined #lisp 15:13:31 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-84-44-154-134.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 15:14:13 -!- abeaumont [~abeaumont@208.Red-79-148-144.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 15:14:29 abeaumont [~abeaumont@208.Red-79-148-144.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 15:18:48 MoALTz [~no@host-92-8-224-38.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 15:23:42 -!- rootlocus [~rootlocus@124-169-14-136.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:23:56 *Xach* queues up a few more lisp tips 15:24:07 Any tips on your mind that I could post? 15:24:31 Certainly don't have any to offer, but I do always enjoy reading them 15:25:06 *sykopomp* wonders what a nice clean way of setting up 'utility' lisp images and using them would be. 15:25:28 hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@46.233.223.120] has joined #lisp 15:25:30 when you want to just compile in some common libraries, I mean. 15:25:31 Fade: apparently with recent update, armv6 and newer. At least ARMv6ZK 15:25:51 Hi everyone! 15:26:12 Did I miss something interesting? 15:26:15 sykopomp: That veers a bit from my editorial direction for the tips 15:26:32 sykopomp: that is, purely portable useful Common Lisp nooks and crannies 15:26:46 hmm 15:26:47 hitecnologys: When did you last check? 15:27:03 Xach: About a week ago. 15:28:36 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 15:28:43 Xach: perhaps some example use cases for the more obscure-ish map* functions. 15:30:54 aha 15:30:55 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 15:31:18 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 15:32:48 -!- spilanthes [~who@gateway/tor-sasl/kuzary] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:34:02 -!- Yuuhi` [benni@p5483BDBF.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 15:34:38 -!- mvilleneuve_ [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:34:56 Xach: defclass with a structure-class metaclass, might be useful, to have the best of both worlds. 15:35:44 Yuuhi [benni@p5483BDBF.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:37:06 So, have anyone ever tried to write compiler for lisp for not x86/x64 platform? 15:38:09 spilanthes [~who@gateway/tor-sasl/kuzary] has joined #lisp 15:38:12 hitecnologys: nearly all the compilers started that way. 15:38:15 hitecnologys: lisp compilers exist for all sorts of architectures. 15:40:32 Supergrade [~user@cpe-70-123-128-240.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:41:19 Is there a convention in Lisp shops on column width in source code? I've read http://mumble.net/~campbell/scheme/style.txt but wonder if the height/width restrictions are considered useful in practice. 15:41:33 real-hitecnology [~hitecnolo@94.137.1.161] has joined #lisp 15:43:08 -!- chimpunk [~Adium@gate02-ka.flaregate.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:43:17 -!- hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@46.233.223.120] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:43:56 -!- Kvaks [~quassel@15.123.34.95.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:44:10 Kvaks [~quassel@15.123.34.95.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 15:44:22 i stick to 79, as with 80, you cannot tell if the line continues or not 15:44:31 but i am prob doing it wrong :P 15:46:09 -!- rvchangue_ [~rvchangue@cpe-075-176-099-143.carolina.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:48:52 So I'm trying to implement my own for 65C02, but I really don't know where to start. What do you recommend to read/look for before to start? Currently I have I only a bunch of spaghetti-code and I don't know what should I do. 15:49:11 real-hitecnology: read "lisp in small pieces" 15:49:29 real-hitecnology: also, consider using a more capable cpu. 15:51:25 hmm I've seen a few 6502 CL assemblers... I guess that you should also start from there, then you can implement a more powerful macro-assembler around it and build a mini-lisp from there 15:52:05 I'm not sure if implementing a GC for it is realistic, considering the low ram available 15:52:51 but a mini lisp could use with-* constructs to free back objects when done 15:53:11 phadthai: I don't want to implement GC. Better to manage memory manual. I know that it isn't lisp way, but this is the only way. 15:53:41 H4ns: I want to build my own computer and this is only one processor that I have. I've already have some sketches, schematics and chips but I want to write an emulator and compeller first. It sounds funny, I know. 15:54:15 -!- paolo_m [~user@2-228-95-110.ip190.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:54:23 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@adsl-75-37-19-235.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 15:54:44 kpreid [~kpreid@adsl-75-37-19-235.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:55:25 -!- Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:56:33 phadthai: Do you remember the name of any of these assemblers? 15:58:23 phadthai: I tried some but the only assembler that works for me is ACME. It's fine, but I want to know is there's something else. 15:59:08 bitonic` [~user@027cae25.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 16:00:25 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-8-224-38.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:00:39 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 16:00:50 Bike [~Glossina@63-229-129-146.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 16:01:09 hmm they were projects of friends who were learning lisp at the time, one of whom I'm still in contact with, although I did a search in my local cl code and could only find an example usage file, not an implementation 16:02:04 H4is there a trick to getting ccl working on arm6? segfaults for me 16:02:06 -!- bitonic [~user@027cae25.bb.sky.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:02:13 H4ns rather 16:02:29 axion: are you on a rasberry pi? 16:02:33 yes 16:03:21 axion: using the raspian image from raspberrypi.org? 16:03:42 i actually just used the archlinux package 16:03:50 well compiled using their package spec 16:03:51 axion: "hah" 16:03:56 Lisp on raspberry pi? Oh my, I thought I'm the only man who wanted to try this. 16:03:57 jlongster [~user@pool-98-117-94-43.rcmdva.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:04:07 i dont use debian 16:04:18 axion: as a general rule? 16:04:23 axion: i'd suggest that you use subversion to fetch the ccl-trunk, then recompile the lisp kernel for hwfloat (http://clozure.com/pipermail/openmcl-devel/2012-July/013677.html) 16:04:38 thanks 16:04:43 axion: for me, that works fine, using raspbian. 16:05:36 i have been an arch user for more than 10 years. i am more comfortable in it. besides dpkg is unbearably slow 16:05:46 axion: *shrug* 16:05:54 axion: use opkg 16:06:12 stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-232-225.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 16:06:18 Well, actually pacman may be good enough. 16:06:27 pnpuff [~pnpuff@gateway/tor-sasl/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 16:07:06 my goal is to not use a linux userland at all, eventually. i've successfully started armcl as init replacement. 16:07:54 -!- strg [~strg@46.115.16.77] has quit [Quit: Linkinus - http://linkinus.com] 16:08:08 yes vry cool 16:08:46 my goal is to be able to code in 1080p instead of at damn netbook res 16:08:49 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:09:26 whooever attempted an arm port of sbcl ? 16:09:39 it seems like there was just one person !? 16:09:39 wbooze: nyef did 16:09:58 i only found resources to "alastair bridgewater" or so 16:10:03 -!- gko [~user@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:10:05 same person. 16:10:16 and it starts with 1.0.13 oh ok 16:12:41 anon119 [~bman@12.104.148.2] has joined #lisp 16:14:01 Goodbye everyone, thanks for help. 16:14:09 -!- real-hitecnology [~hitecnolo@94.137.1.161] has quit [Quit: real-hitecnology] 16:14:42 i even see an arm and armeb arch spec for qemu, why the distinction ? 16:16:58 -!- bitonic` is now known as bitonic 16:18:26 ah found it, armeb is big endian, and armel is little endian 16:20:34 pkhuong: sounds interesting! i don't think i've seen that in the wild. 16:22:45 teggi_ [~teggi@123.21.169.210] has joined #lisp 16:24:17 -!- teggi [~teggi@123.20.49.227] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:25:02 tsuru`` [~charlie@adsl-74-179-196-6.bna.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 16:25:49 ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.239] has joined #lisp 16:25:58 -!- tsuru` [~charlie@adsl-98-87-25-58.bna.bellsouth.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:27:49 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:28:05 -!- c_arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-rmbjdumlcelwoyud] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:29:42 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 16:30:50 -!- superjudge [~superjudg@37-46-176-67.customers.ownit.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 16:32:14 Ralith [~ralith@d142-058-170-070.wireless.sfu.ca] has joined #lisp 16:33:49 -!- bitonic [~user@027cae25.bb.sky.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:34:48 bitonic [~user@027cae25.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 16:36:12 sabalaba [~Adium@108.205.48.179] has joined #lisp 16:42:11 m7w [~chatzilla@178.172.228.119] has joined #lisp 16:44:51 At ITA software/any Common Lisp shop does anyone enforce column length limits? 16:46:04 H4ns gave a talk last year about it (and other style issues) 16:46:10 He has been in more than one Common Lisp shop 16:46:32 I think his stance was that a limit is good and that limit should be the traditional one. 16:46:42 traditional = 80? 16:46:53 Supergrade: yes 16:47:10 I print out code to read and appreciate it when it fits 16:47:34 l2ad0l [~pat@159.244.165.83.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 16:47:46 Supergrade, I wrote a short style guide for the company I work for 16:48:05 Quadrescence: I'd be interested in looking at it if it's around anywhere. 16:48:28 `fogus [~fogus@burke-matrex.d-a-s.com] has joined #lisp 16:50:56 I have to see if it has any information I'm not allowed to release 16:51:19 Did you find an 80 column limit (or anything like that) useful? 16:52:10 ivan-kan` [~user@nantes.visionobjects.com] has joined #lisp 16:52:32 Supergrade, yes, here's the relevant section from the document: http://i.imgur.com/xvdRb.png 16:53:38 Thanks - looks like people are drifting towards the 80ish limit. 16:54:18 There was an issue at work where lines were going beyond 100 characters, which is fine if you're only ever viewing one source file on a widescreen display... 16:54:30 I've found the lines tending to widen on a lot of code I write - closure-in-closure stuff makes it very convenient to have huge single functions that are easy to change rather than maintain call sigs. 16:54:42 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@nantes.visionobjects.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:54:48 ikki [~ikki@189.196.113.242] has joined #lisp 16:54:59 When people say "terminal" (visa vi 80 char limit) do they literally mean some oldschool terminal? 16:55:36 old school terminal or terminal emulator 16:55:43 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:55:55 80 columns makes sense for a lot of reasons no matter the language: (allows multiple full-width displays on a single screen today without wrapping messing up indentation, can be printed easily and cleanly, diffs are manageable, and occasionally one might work from a restricted display)... 16:55:55 at the beginning there was just one "THE TERMINAL" 16:56:12 urandom__ [~user@p54B0EDBC.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:56:19 Xach: I think I've only heard about that trick from Xof. 16:56:37 I will say that some people do take the 80 column rule too seriously sometimes, and impair comprehension for a line when it'd be better written just 1 char over the limit. 16:56:41 needing to scroll both vertically and horizontally to read code is also annoying 16:57:31 i have 160 fill column or so 16:57:33 character 80 is sometimes used for a line-wrap character in some editors, and using 79 ensures you know the line is complete 16:57:42 -!- sambio [~sam@190.57.227.107] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 16:57:46 tho i reduce it motsly to 120 for apps 16:57:53 wbooze: then you can view two columns of code together easily :) 16:57:58 (I wrap my lines so no scrolling required, but I'd rather have a bit of overflow than some massive syntactic refactoring which impedes comprehension) 16:58:14 and it depends really on the font sizes.... 16:58:18 -!- eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:58:23 Quadrescence: I agree about that 16:58:50 -!- ivan-kan` [~user@nantes.visionobjects.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:59:05 tritchey [~tritchey@c-67-177-182-19.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:59:58 ok, i have a cortex a9 arm chip, bleh 17:00:57 eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 17:01:12 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-84-44-154-134.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:01:26 -!- gshan [~shan@122.169.130.25] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:02:04 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-84-44-154-134.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 17:03:22 -!- Ralith [~ralith@d142-058-170-070.wireless.sfu.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:03:25 -!- teggi_ [~teggi@123.21.169.210] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:04:05 -!- ArmyOfBruce [~bmitchene@waywardmonkeys.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 17:04:29 -!- ISF [~ivan@143.106.196.239] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:04:35 ArmyOfBruce [~bmitchene@waywardmonkeys.com] has joined #lisp 17:06:13 jjkola [~androirc@212-226-67-141-nat.elisa-mobile.fi] has joined #lisp 17:06:35 Ralith [~ralith@d142-058-170-070.wireless.sfu.ca] has joined #lisp 17:06:45 Supergrade: Where I work 80 columns is the limit for C++. Many Java folks want 100, so some Java projects use that as the upper limit. The limit is 100 for Lisp code. 17:07:39 Personally, I use one less than the numbers above to avoid line wrap in Emacs. 17:07:59 _d3f [~d3f@nl1.ovpn.to] has joined #lisp 17:08:50 *Xach* spies a brown 17:09:03 i always use 79. i guess i was spanked by python (it's in their style convention) 17:10:25 edgar-rft [~GOD@HSI-KBW-078-043-123-191.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 17:11:20 pirateking-_- [~piratekin@c-67-169-182-169.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:11:58 pnpuff` [~pnpuff@gateway/tor-sasl/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 17:12:15 -!- pnpuff [~pnpuff@gateway/tor-sasl/pnpuff] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:12:37 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:14:01 didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has joined #lisp 17:16:36 How would I change this macro to make it eval the last form and not return it? It's the way it is because I want to compute `numbers' form and take it apart. 17:16:56 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:17:48 didi: add a (values) at the end, as the last form 17:18:13 didi: too many backquotes 17:18:25 wbooze: Thanks, I'll try it. 17:18:46 Xach: Yeah, but I couldn't figure out how to use less and still compute and take `numbers' apart. :^( 17:19:04 wbooze's advice is nonsense 17:19:06 -!- sellout42 [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:19:11 Awwww... 17:19:23 -!- bitonic [~user@027cae25.bb.sky.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:19:33 didi: you can omit the ` before (when ...) 17:19:53 and remove one comma from ,,n 17:21:35 Xach: Then it doesn't let me use `,' with `list'. 17:22:07 And if I don't use `,' with `list', it bounds with (gensym) in the top. 17:22:56 Xach: like http://paste.lisp.org/display/131565 (modulo the strange indentation of defclass) 17:22:58 Right, better to back up 17:24:07 didi: You have your heart set on evaluating the list of numbers but not the number itself? 17:24:18 didi: if you want to evaluate the list of numbers, better to use something like EVERY in the expansion 17:24:50 -!- pnpuff` [~pnpuff@gateway/tor-sasl/pnpuff] has left #lisp 17:26:24 killerboy [~mateusz@217.17.38.43] has joined #lisp 17:26:33 -!- yakov [~yakov@spb.nexenta.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:28:40 Xach: I totally agree. But this is a idiom that I'm trying to use for days: Building a macro call. Suppose `foo' is a macro. I can't use `apply' or `funcall', so I have to wrap around it something. 17:29:05 -!- Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:29:57 I can write a macro that works with (foo (1 2 3)), but I want it to also work with (foo (list 1 2 3)), which I'm failing miserably. 17:30:11 didi: You can't have it work both ways in the same macro. 17:30:25 didi: in one case the value is not known at macroexpansion time and you can't pick apart the list then. 17:32:56 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@static-217-133-17-91.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:33:20 dmx` [~dmx@adsl-67-121-157-253.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 17:39:25 Xach: Would It be possible to have only the second behavior however? It's actually how I want to use it. 17:39:50 didi: yes. expand into something that iterates over the elements at runtime, e.g. dolist, loop, every 17:40:15 `(when (every (lambda (x) (< x ,n)) ,list) ...) 17:40:21 or however... 17:42:06 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.196.84] has joined #lisp 17:42:13 Xach: no. i like long lines. 17:42:19 ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has joined #lisp 17:42:53 Xach: I use M-q if i really need to have a line be shorter. 80 is way too few characters when one is using sensible non-abbreviated names. 17:43:17 H4ns: ah yes, then it was someone in the audience (luke?) who jumped up to discuss the point in favor of 80 17:43:27 yeah. kind of like editor wars 17:43:34 there will never be agreement on that :) 17:43:50 Xach: That will work great with `when', thank you. 17:44:07 I liked the talk and agree with the big point if not each small point. I had the impression that some did not see the forest for the trees. 17:44:09 Oddity [~Oddity@d154-20-194-103.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 17:44:09 -!- Oddity [~Oddity@d154-20-194-103.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Changing host] 17:44:09 Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has joined #lisp 17:45:05 pnpuff` [~pnpuff@gateway/tor-sasl/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 17:45:17 vwvwvwv [~vwvwvwv@rrcs-76-79-198-130.west.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:46:03 -!- ignas [~ignas@office.pov.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:46:46 Xach: But I think it will not work with `cffi:foreign-funcall'. I'm trying to write a call to a variadic function so I have to build the `foreign-funcall' before I can call it. 17:46:55 paul0 [~paul0@200.175.60.11.dynamic.dialup.gvt.net.br] has joined #lisp 17:47:17 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-180-100.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:48:09 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-180-100.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:49:44 It's interesting that CFFI's manual faces the same problem and choose to define static functions based on fixed arguments. Maybe it's not possible to do what I'm trying to do. 17:49:48 fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-68-174-154-238.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:49:56 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-67-177-182-19.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 17:51:00 didi: iirc it might depend on implementation involved 17:53:18 À propos formatting, is there a way in lisp buffers in slime, to not only correct the indentation of a form (like I do with M-q) but also "compress" unnecessary spaces that I'm left with when joining lines? 17:53:45 (which would be equivalent to pretty-printing the form, basically) 17:53:51 M-q? 17:53:54 antoszka: I use M-space to collapse spaces 17:54:01 Oh. 17:54:04 Let's see. 17:54:05 antoszka: though my window manager eats it, so I usually hit escape-space 17:54:33 Right, my wm has all the shortcuts bound to Mod4, so I'm free to use any M-whatever shortcuts. 17:56:02 -!- pnpuff` [~pnpuff@gateway/tor-sasl/pnpuff] has left #lisp 17:56:38 didi: with variadic functions is that you either need to make a binding for each parameter combination that you use or go through the varargs call 17:58:01 -!- axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-88-224.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:58:02 didi: https://github.com/sionescu/iolib/blob/master/src/syscalls/ffi-functions-unix.lisp#L398 exemplifies the first case 17:59:47 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 18:00:18 Xach: That works fine for spaces at point, I suppose I need to write some elisp to collapse all spaces in a form. 18:03:37 fe[nl]ix: Great, thank you. 18:04:08 -!- wangf3 is now known as gf3 18:05:52 whiteCatRunning [45ae3a5c@gateway/web/freenode/ip.69.174.58.92] has joined #lisp 18:08:35 -!- jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@193.136.27.164] has quit [Quit: jcazevedo] 18:08:41 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 18:09:05 qptain_Nemo [~qN@81-235-52-30-no79.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 18:10:24 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has quit [Quit: Close the world, Open the nExt] 18:14:23 sellout42 [~Adium@65.101.242.214] has joined #lisp 18:14:26 quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 18:15:34 -!- sellout42 is now known as sellout 18:15:51 -!- CrLF0710 [~user@223.240.73.34] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:17:10 [SLB]` [~slabua@host57-169-dynamic.23-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 18:17:27 -!- [SLB]` is now known as [SLB] 18:17:28 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@host57-169-dynamic.23-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Changing host] 18:17:28 [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has joined #lisp 18:19:07 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-180-100.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:20:08 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-180-100.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 18:23:18 -!- mucker [~mucker@183.83.240.198] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:26:17 ehu [~ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 18:26:38 -!- l2ad0l [~pat@159.244.165.83.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has left #lisp 18:27:45 -!- edgar-rft [~GOD@HSI-KBW-078-043-123-191.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Quit: mental vacuum] 18:28:55 -!- piko [~piko@ip4-83-240-49-166.cust.nbox.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 18:28:57 -!- vwvwvwv [~vwvwvwv@rrcs-76-79-198-130.west.biz.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:29:00 -!- antonv [2e35c344@gateway/web/freenode/ip.46.53.195.68] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 18:30:40 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-180-100.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 18:31:41 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-180-100.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 18:32:36 fe[nl]ix: Hum, I think that using `va_start' and friends might be implementation dependent, as p_l noted. I guess I'll try going the one-call-for-argument-type route. 18:34:49 antonv [2e35c344@gateway/web/freenode/ip.46.53.195.68] has joined #lisp 18:35:43 -!- wizaqua [~usorid@c-76-23-254-105.hsd1.ct.comcast.net] has left #lisp 18:36:16 lolprog [~let@94-225-44-126.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 18:38:45 DDR [~chatzilla@d66-183-118-10.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 18:39:09 l2ad0l [~pat@159.244.165.83.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 18:40:51 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 18:40:51 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-181-234-135.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:41:45 tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-88-12.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:43:21 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-180-100.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:44:16 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-180-100.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 18:46:37 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-183-193-60.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 18:46:55 Houl [~Parmi@unaffiliated/houl] has joined #lisp 18:47:25 -!- l2ad0l [~pat@159.244.165.83.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has left #lisp 18:49:11 sambio [~sam@190.57.227.107] has joined #lisp 18:49:48 didi: no, they're part of the OS ABI 18:50:23 otherwise, e.g, code compiled with icc wouldn't be able to use the gcc-compiled glibc 18:51:57 Interesting... 18:54:27 On a side note, I used to like varargs. Now I hate them. 18:55:13 fe[nl]ix: the problem is that some FFIs don't implement building the stack values apropriately 18:55:52 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-88-12.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:55:56 never had an issue with SBCL, but SWIG-generated bindings will often exhibit having static functions with fixed amount of values 18:59:52 tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-88-12.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:00:55 p_l: that's an entirely different thing 19:02:51 MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-130-86.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 19:03:18 booguie [~booguie@wsip-98-172-168-236.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 19:03:57 pnpuff [~pnpuff@gateway/tor-sasl/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 19:04:28 -!- didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:05:42 tritchey_ [~tritchey@c-68-51-88-12.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:06:01 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-88-12.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:10:33 -!- tritchey_ [~tritchey@c-68-51-88-12.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:10:39 -!- harshrc [~harshrc@moat3.centtech.com] has left #lisp 19:12:27 DaDaDOSPrompt [~DaDaDOSPr@75-164-248-214.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 19:13:53 -!- Bike [~Glossina@63-229-129-146.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 19:14:19 Bike [~Glossina@63-229-129-146.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 19:15:08 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.196.113.242] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 19:15:32 didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has joined #lisp 19:16:11 am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has joined #lisp 19:16:13 pjb: I think thermodynamics applies also to the open statistical ensemble (07:09:16) but thanks for the application of the principle of maximum entropy (of informations). ^^ 19:18:37 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-2-130-86.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:19:10 -!- antonv [2e35c344@gateway/web/freenode/ip.46.53.195.68] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:20:07 I'm reading the hyperspec and seeing a reference to the ~# format control code in the ~[ section. However, I can't find any other reference to it anywhere. 19:20:12 What does it do? 19:22:32 bitonic [~user@host86-138-142-20.range86-138.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 19:22:37 -!- Bike [~Glossina@63-229-129-146.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:24:13 -!- milanj [~milanj_@178-223-156-24.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:24:39 chimpunk [~Adium@p5B066524.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:24:48 Bike [~Glossina@63-229-129-146.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 19:25:39 ehu: described in 22.3 19:25:45 ehu: replaced with the number of args remaining 19:26:42 ah! 19:26:46 perfect. thanks. 19:27:24 `format' is crazy. 19:27:34 ehu: you applied some patches to cl-irc, right? when's that filter down to quicklisp and so on? 19:28:32 didi: try slime-format-string-expand some time 19:28:38 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 19:29:04 Bike: I'll release a new cl-irc release in a few weeks. Although I think Xach uses cl-irc from current trunk if/when it compiles on SBCL. 19:29:07 -!- chimpunk [~Adium@p5B066524.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:29:15 so it might trickle in quicker. 19:29:23 ehu: cool. 19:29:26 -!- Fullmoon [~Fullmoon@h081217030118.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Quit: Fullmoon] 19:29:36 Bike: Does slime have that? Sweet. 19:29:56 didi: it just does (macroexpand-1 (formatter string)) 19:30:10 Bike: I want to make a few more changes before I do the release; several people commented no the fact that cl-irc now crashes is it receives an unrecognised return code. 19:30:25 I want to install a hook for that, but stop erring. 19:30:32 Unrecognized return code...? 19:30:37 yes. 19:30:48 the server can send numerical return 329. 19:30:55 Though that reminds me, you should probably export reply-number. 19:31:13 ok. I'll note that as well. 19:31:30 asvil [~asvil@178.120.242.113] has joined #lisp 19:31:32 -!- jlongster [~user@pool-98-117-94-43.rcmdva.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 19:31:37 if 329 is not in the list of numerical values, it'll crash. 19:31:43 you don't want that. 19:32:06 rather you want to install a hook to handle it differently or ignore it completely. 19:32:06 Like message numerics, the ones corresponding to irc-rpl_welcome and so on? 19:32:10 Bike: Wow. 19:32:14 MoALTz [~no@92.2.127.239] has joined #lisp 19:32:37 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@91-119-59-123.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:32:50 Oh, no. Guess I don't know IRC well enough. 19:33:04 didi: you can precompile your format strings using "formatter" 19:33:28 or rather, pass your format strings around as functions. 19:33:32 clhs formatter 19:33:32 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_format.htm 19:34:51 *didi* <3 Lisp 19:34:53 -!- dmx` [~dmx@adsl-67-121-157-253.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:34:58 :) 19:36:20 -!- m7w [~chatzilla@178.172.228.119] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:36:43 -!- MoALTz [~no@92.2.127.239] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:37:15 -!- peterhil` [~peterhil@gatekeeper.brainalliance.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:39:11 nicotra [~david@cpc4-with5-2-0-cust838.1-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 19:40:23 superflit_ [~superflit@65-128-43-10.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 19:41:40 strg [~strg@a89-182-42-80.net-htp.de] has joined #lisp 19:42:07 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@217.17.38.43] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 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uh, did i break something? 20:02:29 Bad H4ns. 20:02:37 prip [~foo@host95-19-dynamic.43-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 20:02:49 H4ns: back when you exported the notify stuff, it busted the socket interface in clsql. fixed now. 20:02:59 ah, yeah 20:03:23 Can't wait for the cl-who update! 20:05:53 -!- sellout [~Adium@65.101.242.214] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:06:06 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-180-100.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:06:35 -!- am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:07:00 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-180-100.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 20:07:48 -!- Ralith [~ralith@d142-058-170-070.wireless.sfu.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:08:21 Ralith [~ralith@d142-058-170-070.wireless.sfu.ca] has joined #lisp 20:08:28 why wait? it's done, no? 20:09:46 When did you do it? 20:09:58 yesterday? 20:10:00 let me check 20:10:23 hmm, wtf. 20:10:29 cannot resolve weitz.de locally 20:10:46 *Xach* wonders what is next 20:10:47 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:10:56 but it picked up the release, so i'm all set 20:11:03 *Xach* shakes fist at serverinkompetenz.de 20:11:10 :D 20:12:56 -!- sabalaba [~Adium@108.205.48.179] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:14:13 joekarma [~joekarma@70-36-57-169.dyn.novuscom.net] has joined #lisp 20:16:01 -!- jollyG [~JollyG@KennPAT.uncc.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:17:32 rvchangue [~rvchangue@unaffiliated/rvchangue] has joined #lisp 20:19:42 -!- Supergrade [~user@cpe-70-123-128-240.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:20:06 -!- Ralith [~ralith@d142-058-170-070.wireless.sfu.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:21:29 vwvwvwv [~vwvwvwv@rrcs-76-79-198-130.west.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:21:40 -!- nicotra [~david@cpc4-with5-2-0-cust838.1-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 20:25:11 piko 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[~fisxoj@cpe-68-174-154-238.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:00:49 -!- asvil [~asvil@178.120.242.113] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:03:04 -!- eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:03:37 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.196.84] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:07:09 -!- stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-232-225.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:08:57 -!- booguie [~booguie@wsip-98-172-168-236.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:09:43 Amadiro [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp0217.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 21:10:12 -!- _d3f [~d3f@nl1.ovpn.to] has quit [Quit: _d3f] 21:12:17 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.94.167] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:12:31 -!- bitonic [~user@host86-138-142-20.range86-138.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:13:07 bitonic [~user@host86-138-142-20.range86-138.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 21:14:58 -!- PuercoPop [~PuercoPop@190.41.173.174] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 21:15:25 sabalaba [~Adium@108.205.48.179] has joined #lisp 21:16:45 -!- vwvwvwv [~vwvwvwv@rrcs-76-79-198-130.west.biz.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 21:19:51 jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@bl18-65-172.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 21:20:37 VieiraN [~VieiraN@189-68-255-110.dsl.telesp.net.br] has joined #lisp 21:21:15 sambio [~sam@190.57.227.107] has joined #lisp 21:22:35 is it just me 21:22:40 or does ruby seem very.. lispy 21:23:11 quazimodo: it seems so a bit 21:23:18 still far from CL, IMHO 21:23:23 -!- pirateking-_- [~piratekin@c-67-169-182-169.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: pirateking-_-] 21:23:28 quazimodo: It's not just you a lot of Rubyists seem to think so ;) 21:25:16 -!- [SLB] is now known as [SLB]` 21:25:37 didi` [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has joined #lisp 21:25:49 -!- VieiraN [~VieiraN@189-68-255-110.dsl.telesp.net.br] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:26:22 -!- superflit [~superflit@65-128-43-10.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:26:43 -!- didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:27:22 Ralith [~ralith@d142-058-165-167.wireless.sfu.ca] has joined #lisp 21:27:52 vwvwvwv [~vwvwvwv@rrcs-76-79-198-130.west.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:28:03 its a tad like it 21:29:57 francogrex [~user@109.130.94.167] has joined #lisp 21:32:16 PuercoPop [~PuercoPop@190.41.173.174] has joined #lisp 21:32:35 I'm sure I've asked this before but can't recall the way to do it. example: (member "zCA105" '(("XB12A" 15) ("ZCA105" 27) ("NB23zA" 5) ("zCA105" 3)) :test #'equalp :key (lambda (x) (car x))) -> (("ZCA105" 27) ("NB23zA" 5) ("zCA105" 3)) but I want all those that match: (("ZCA105" 27) ("zCA105" 3)) ... not interested in looping. ? 21:33:32 remove-if-not? 21:34:36 (remove-if-not (lambda (x) (equalp x "zCA105")) '(("XB12A" 15) ("ZCA105" 27) ("NB23zA" 5) ("zCA105" 3)) :key #'car) 21:34:48 Use REMOVE 21:35:29 (remove "zCA105" list :test-not #'string= :key #'car) 21:35:31 actually maybe that's awkward :) 21:35:51 it's better than mine. 21:38:50 one day I need to learn what restful design is 21:38:53 -!- prxq_ [~mommer@mnhm-4d01395f.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:39:49 quazimodo: one that actually follows what HTTP provides 21:40:11 quazimodo: for good examples, look in Webmachine (Erlang) or Bishop (Clojure) 21:41:33 Bike: why it's better because remove-if-not is deprecated? 21:42:01 No, it's just cleaner. :test-not instead of a lambda. and it's mostly my opinion. 21:43:03 ok thanks for both 21:43:43 peterhil [~peterhil@91-157-48-51.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 21:45:51 -!- Alice3 [~Alice@cpc3-grim12-0-0-cust856.12-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [] 21:48:04 -!- ehu [~ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 21:48:16 -!- joekarma [~joekarma@70-36-57-169.dyn.novuscom.net] has quit [Quit: joekarma] 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peer] 22:15:11 A good way to use ^L is for M-x narrow-to-page, I've been finding. 22:15:43 chiguire|m [~chiguire@gentoo/developer/chiguire] has joined #lisp 22:15:56 -!- punee [~punee@213-245-106-105.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Quit: punee] 22:17:18 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-180-100.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:18:31 mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.35.99] has joined #lisp 22:18:35 Codynyx [~cody@c-75-72-25-106.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:22:51 -!- whiteCatRunning [45ae3a5c@gateway/web/freenode/ip.69.174.58.92] has left #lisp 22:23:46 -!- rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:24:00 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:24:06 -!- Ralith [~ralith@d142-058-165-167.wireless.sfu.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:25:42 Ralith [~ralith@d142-058-095-018.wireless.sfu.ca] has joined #lisp 22:27:18 -!- kmels 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[~axion@cpe-67-242-88-224.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:54:37 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.35.99] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:54:57 -!- vwvwvwv [~vwvwvwv@rrcs-76-79-198-130.west.biz.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:56:28 Jubb [~ghost@pool-108-28-0-134.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:57:57 -!- Houl [~Parmi@unaffiliated/houl] has quit [Quit: weil das Wetter so schön ist] 22:59:29 Nothing better than compiling C programs to know #define values... 22:59:47 can't you just run it through the preprocessor? 22:59:55 o.O 22:59:59 Bike is a genius. 23:01:22 DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@1.150.181.215] has joined #lisp 23:06:42 Sorella [~quildreen@oftn/member/Sorella] has joined #lisp 23:09:44 -!- strg [~strg@a89-182-42-80.net-htp.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 23:10:19 -!- NNshag [user@chl45-1-88-123-84-8.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:12:34 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 23:12:39 -!- 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[user@chl45-1-88-123-84-8.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 23:38:55 NNshag [user@chl45-1-88-123-84-8.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 23:44:17 -!- CampinSam [~user@24-176-98-217.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:45:49 Some of the #define values are defined as #define FOO BAR(42) ... *sigh* I don't know how to compute those. 23:46:13 -!- Oxyd_ [~oxyd@pdpc/supporter/student/oxyd] has quit [Quit: Vanitas vanitatum et omnia vanitas.] 23:47:31 that would mean the result of the BAR macro on 42, I think? 23:48:11 Bike: I guess. 23:48:14 yup, I think so too 23:48:27 cpp will do the job :) 23:49:00 The_third_man: How would I use it? 23:50:37 cpp your_file.c ? 23:51:30 didi`: use the groveler? 23:51:59 "groveller" 23:52:41 is it possible to hook into the trace system so you can 'add' calls in the listing adding depth to the output? 23:54:14 The_third_man: I don't think so. It outputs too much, so I have to use the `-dM' switch but it returns the non-computed #define. 23:54:25 oGMo: I'll take a look at it, thanks. 23:54:55 i'm mainly looking at SBCL. didn't find anything in the CLHS so far 23:55:11 madnificent: I don't understand what you're looking for 23:57:08 Bike: you can trace functions, i want to have something that emulates the calling of a function, but i only have a lambda function. so, it should basically be output in the trace output. 23:57:14 (and increase the indentation) 23:58:18 -!- someprimetime [~someprime@50.0.103.34] has quit [Quit: someprimetime] 23:59:22 You want to trace an anonymous function?