00:00:10 google wasn't helping so thought to ask here 00:00:35 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-142-207.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:00:53 it is an interesting question though. sbcl is so different (and yet not so much) from the c world that i have always wondered what a proper multiuser system coded in common lisp would actually look like 00:02:10 holycow: first, redefine proper. 00:02:27 good point 00:02:36 -!- alvis` [~user@tx-184-6-183-254.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:03:42 that's not point, just cynicism. 00:05:28 -!- m7w [~chatzilla@178.172.228.43] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:06:36 cool, thanks for the think fellas 00:08:22 guther [guther@gateway/shell/bshellz.net/x-pguegvzrhgmavbel] has joined #lisp 00:08:59 dreish [~dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 00:10:15 -!- Houl [~Parmi@unaffiliated/houl] has quit [Quit: weil das Wetter so schön ist] 00:12:10 mritz [~textual@cpe-66-25-166-122.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:13:02 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.196.110.141] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:14:01 you're talking about a lisp os ? 00:14:34 well, i guess you would call it that. the kernel isn't the os afterall 00:14:55 -!- mritz [~textual@cpe-66-25-166-122.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 00:15:15 i just wanted to visualize how it would work via something like sbcl, but lots of interesting points were made about some other options 00:16:38 I'd think something like sbcl/xen would be both easier, and potentially useful. 00:16:41 especially if we wanted to deploy binaries only, not source based environment 00:17:19 pkhuong: that is starting to look right based on what i have learned 00:19:02 how much can you do before GC becomes a problemthough 00:19:17 -!- Nisstyre_ [~yours@c-208-90-102-250.netflash.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:19:19 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:19:27 on immediate benefit of an sbcl based userland environment would be that all applications would essentially become libraries. instead of just having whatever interfaces the programer designes for the user, programmers could potentially easily provide application interaction at a far more granular level. 00:19:58 m7w [~chatzilla@178.172.228.43] has joined #lisp 00:20:15 so for example, open office in such an environment (coded in common lisp) could serve not just a word processor but as a programmable tool to do other interesting stuff (say document conversion, etc). 00:20:31 -!- rswarbrick [~rupert@cpc1-cove3-0-0-cust941.3-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has left #lisp 00:20:40 Nisstyre_ [~yours@c-208-90-102-250.netflash.net] has joined #lisp 00:21:01 the closest you get is where applications are written with an embedded language like python perhaps 00:21:36 n00b6502: when was the last time you saw an application with python embedded in? 00:21:44 one could envision a sort of metaenvironment where the application presents a user interface and programmatic interface by default. one could then have a system wide tool for shoving data from one function to another to do things not commonly possible now (well it is but perhaps less work maybe?) 00:21:48 there are a few 00:21:57 gedit and blender spring to mind 00:22:36 of course each application written like that is seperate 00:22:41 indeed 00:22:50 gimp uses guile i think ? it might have python too 00:22:58 -!- eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:23:13 n00b6502: I don't believe it was guile, but a different scheme variant 00:23:13 perhaps you could do this for Python by simply merging all the availalbe apps' underlying libraries 00:23:19 gimp uses python too. not sure if it is guile or scheme or something though 00:23:41 i've seen programs which have an underlying scripting interface that allows bindings to any scripting language you choose 00:24:00 (same underlying api accesible through python, javascript VBscript etc) 00:24:35 they python people say " write applications by extending python with C/C++ libaries", ratehr than "embed python inC/C++" 00:24:51 i dont know how many work like that in practice; also i realize python isn't compiled 00:24:54 well yes. i was just curious how would it work within a common lispe enviornmnet. i did not want to ask the standard "gee, why can't i deploy a standard 100kb app via sbcl like i can in c" question as its not particularly interesting 00:25:32 if we are going to start embedding guile everywhere, i mean that would work sure, but that isn't a fun daydream :) !! 00:26:20 Yamazaki-kun [~bsa3@jetalone.facefault.org] has joined #lisp 00:27:19 also, the image based deployment is a very different idea from package based deployment we are used to now. if one wanted to use sbcl for this, i wanted to know if i would be dumping common lisp binaries in the linux files system ... clearly its going to be image based unless we consider what p_l said. 00:28:10 the simples environment can actually be done pretty well now i think via sbcl 00:28:50 we have cffi so one would not really have to rewrite much (haven't used cffi much so don't know if it can be used to say interface with bash or similar enviornments from the sbcl based image). 00:29:29 someone already created a very short shell like lisp tool that you can load up when sbcl starts up so we have some peripheral command line interactivity 00:30:20 there were lisp-machines in the past with tagged memory or something? 00:30:52 -!- sellout42 [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:31:04 not sure to be honest. 00:32:07 n00b6502: yes 00:32:11 -!- punee [~punee@213-245-106-105.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Quit: punee] 00:33:17 X11 to this day has 29bit XIDs due to CL often using tagged pointers 00:33:25 what, really? 00:33:28 oh thats neat 00:33:57 -!- booguie [~booguie@wsip-98-172-168-236.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:35:50 sellout42 [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:41:13 for real 00:41:30 Xach: so, were you entertained? 00:41:48 super 00:41:54 heh 00:42:00 :p 00:42:05 *Xach* gets to hacking on his weekend project 00:44:07 -!- iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 00:45:20 tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-88-12.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:46:03 pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has joined #lisp 00:50:01 mucker [~mucker@183.83.240.198] has joined #lisp 01:08:49 -!- Sorella [~quildreen@oftn/member/Sorella] has quit [Quit: (quit :reason 'sleep)] 01:11:04 peterhil` [~peterhil@91-157-48-51.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 01:11:15 ravster [~ravi@24-212-136-201.cable.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 01:11:20 Hello all 01:11:40 hello 01:12:59 privyet. 01:13:26 aloha 01:13:31 the russians are coming, better hide 01:13:46 *holycow* puts away the vodka 01:13:59 did they bring grandpa frost? :) 01:14:17 they don't need to. in canada, winter is coming 01:14:30 I feel it in me bones. 01:14:31 *p_l* has to admit he doesn't exactly like vodka, prefers whisky, despite vodka being national thing 01:14:33 ravster: did it ever leave? 01:14:59 i can't drink whiskey, but vodka is basically nothing to me. 01:15:24 p_l: you're not supposed to like it, you just need it to get drunk 01:15:31 The shorts tell me it did, stassats` 01:15:42 stassats`: I made sure to never get drunk or even buzzed 01:16:01 funnily enough, it means that I'd rather drink vodka than beer 01:16:05 are you afraid you'll tell state secrets while drunk? 01:16:40 stassats`: personal secrets are bad enough, as well as things I might do without self-control 01:16:56 like, writing a lisp-OS? 01:17:42 stassats`: that would be a very mild case 01:18:36 lolz 01:18:55 Bhehehe 01:19:49 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:23:39 nicdev [user@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:4986] has joined #lisp 01:23:55 booguie [~booguie@wsip-98-172-168-236.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 01:25:02 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:26:25 and so far I managed to keep clear of stuff that required security clearance 01:26:38 new job might include it, though 01:27:23 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 01:28:38 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@adsl-75-37-19-235.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 01:29:00 kpreid [~kpreid@adsl-75-37-19-235.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:31:28 -!- redscare [~user@CP-ONE-THIRTY.MIT.EDU] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:38:25 *ountual* nuzzles up against p_l; *whispers sweet-nothings* tell me your zeekrets. 01:42:17 ... eeeek, hentai! 01:43:06 *p_l* turn ountual onto suborbital trajectory 01:44:25 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:45:38 ipmonger [~ipmonger@2001:470:8:d80:8df3:9b2c:5cd7:8805] has joined #lisp 01:46:21 hm. a retrograde man. 01:46:35 -!- anon119 [~bman@12.104.148.2] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:48:04 -!- holycow [~holycow@host-216-251-135-194.bchsia.skywaywest.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 01:57:46 curious; anyone from Oregon? 01:58:18 jjkola_ [~androirc@193-64-21-202-nat.elisa-mobile.fi] has joined #lisp 01:58:28 yes, that ahaas fellow 02:00:25 -!- bitonic [~user@027cae25.bb.sky.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:00:32 -!- jjkola [~androirc@212-226-40-214-nat.elisa-mobile.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 02:00:49 wchun [~wchun@81-232-46-25-no38.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 02:01:23 hm; sorry scroll-back doesn't stretch-out that remote. 02:03:02 -!- agumonkey [~agu@249.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 02:04:33 -!- Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-96-255-130-43.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:13:23 -!- DDR 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has quit [Changing host] 04:23:52 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 04:24:32 Could anyone make a recommendation for an archive package? archive_0.8 has some major issues, definetley not ready for production use when it comes to writing archives, can't really speak for it's reading capability either. 04:27:55 bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable216.122-57-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 04:28:34 -!- ISF [~ivan@189.61.221.122] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 04:32:08 gurrag [~gurrag@unaffiliated/gurrag] has joined #lisp 04:33:36 vlion_ [~vlion@66-87-70-147.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 04:34:13 -!- mritz [~textual@cpe-66-25-166-122.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 04:37:50 centipedefarmer [~centipede@75-170-156-72.desm.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 04:38:36 -!- centipedefarmer [~centipede@75-170-156-72.desm.qwest.net] has quit [Client Quit] 04:38:43 organixpear: use /usr/bin/zip 04:50:54 -!- vlion_ 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-!- gurrag [~gurrag@unaffiliated/gurrag] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:23:38 pskosinski [~pk@czu186.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 08:28:11 kushal [~kdas@114.143.167.124] has joined #lisp 08:28:12 -!- kushal [~kdas@114.143.167.124] has quit [Changing host] 08:28:12 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 08:32:04 chrisdone [~cin@unaffiliated/chrisdone] has joined #lisp 08:32:18 -!- DDR [~chatzilla@d66-183-118-10.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Quit: for the love of god this is not safe for work] 08:33:00 -!- Kvaks [~quassel@15.123.34.95.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:33:30 is there a lisp pretty printer which will take a line of lisp code and expand it out to multiple indented lines? in other words, i'm generating lisp and i don't want to bother writing pretty printing code if i don't have to 08:33:47 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-134-112.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: none] 08:33:58 -!- tensorpudding [~michael@108.87.23.209] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:35:11 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-134-112.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 08:39:47 -!- chrisdone [~cin@unaffiliated/chrisdone] has left #lisp 08:41:01 -!- araxeus [~araxeus4@c-66-41-112-222.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:42:37 woudshoo [~user@ironhead.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 08:43:03 -!- rwiker [~rwiker@84.48.39.52] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 08:44:29 rwiker [~rwiker@84.48.39.52] has joined #lisp 08:44:57 JuanDaugherty [~Ren@cpe-72-228-189-184.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 08:45:15 mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.32.250] has joined #lisp 08:45:21 francogrex [~user@109.130.184.144] has joined #lisp 08:45:35 Hi I have a question about how to name functions 08:45:56 In particular, I am wrapping a c-library and that library of course has names like 'delete' etc. 08:46:14 Now I see two options: 1 - use a prefix, e.g. lib-delete etc. 08:46:46 2 - still call it delete, but in that case you cannot 'use' the package. 08:47:02 3 - Give it a different name (but I don't like that because I have to invent new names) 08:47:18 Does anyone have other suggestions or a preference for either method. 08:47:24 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-142-164.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:47:50 -!- nkkarthik [~nkkarthik@203.109.110.170] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:48:28 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-142-164.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 08:48:39 -!- pskosinski is now known as pk-s 08:48:44 -!- pk-s is now known as pskosinski 08:49:43 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:50:31 -!- steffi_s [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1178024994.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: zzzz] 08:51:25 minion: memo for stassats`: recently somebody issued a linux with the userland entirely written in Perl. 08:51:25 Remembered. I'll tell stassats` when he/she/it next speaks. 08:52:54 -!- impulse [~impulse@bas3-toronto48-1177937051.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:54:33 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@91-119-125-214.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:54:40 bitonic [~user@027cae25.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 08:57:29 Kvaks [~quassel@15.123.34.95.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 08:58:28 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 09:01:43 superflit_ [~superflit@75-171-206-100.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 09:02:08 punee [~punee@213-245-106-105.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 09:02:26 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 09:02:56 -!- superflit [~superflit@75-171-212-70.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:02:57 -!- superflit_ is now known as superflit 09:08:31 robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:12:43 -!- rwiker [~rwiker@84.48.39.52] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 09:13:32 minion: memo for chrisdone: (setf *print-right-margin* 72) (pprint lisp-form) 09:13:33 Remembered. I'll tell chrisdone when he/she/it next speaks. 09:14:30 woudshoo: since C doesn't have namespaces, good C libraries prefix their external symbols with the name of the library. So if it was from a good library, it would be named good_delete, not delete. 09:14:38 -!- pnpuff [~pnpuff@gateway/tor-sasl/pnpuff] has left #lisp 09:14:49 So, indeed, either you name it good:delete, or good:good-delete. 09:15:39 Notice that it's not harder to type good:delete than good-delete. However, one may prefer to be able to use the package, since that documents the dependency, without having to read the whole file. 09:15:52 So I'd say that I'd tend to prefer good:good-delete. 09:16:47 Well, "prefer" is not the exact word. I actually prefer good:delete, but good:good-delete is what I'd do anyways. 09:17:41 Notably because my package names are more like com.informatimago.c-libraries.good than just good. :-) 09:19:56 Exactly, what I am struggling with. Theoretically I prefer good:delete. however in practice I might prefer good:good-delete. Except that with longer function names they get long. Also, what I astruggling with is the following good:good-name which is just the wrapping of 'name' and good-name suggests something else. Because I am trying to give good names for libgit2 you get cl-git:git-name but it is not git-name it is just name. 09:19:56 Grr. 09:20:46 I might go for 'g-' to try to avoid mental clashes. But it is very ugly. 09:20:50 is there a way to add a nickname to a package? 09:21:25 is there a way to install sbcl with apt-get install ... ? 09:22:18 woudshoo: i think it's not so important. 09:22:36 francogrex: It has been ages since I used debian. But I assume so, what is the problem? 09:23:28 Alice3 [~Alice@cpc3-grim12-0-0-cust856.12-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 09:23:36 well apt-get install sbcl is fine, it's just wants to remove > 100 packages as The following packages were automatically installed and are no longer required: gtk2-engines-smooth libgtk2.0-cil mono-gac python-vte gir1.0-clutter-1.0 .. etc 09:24:19 nvm I found it. 09:24:25 but I think it's not a big thing 09:24:30 I've found it*. 09:24:34 francogrex: I only install sbcl with apt so I can build sbcl from source. 09:24:42 asvil: Well, I would hate to write lots of generic functions and wrap the 'c-object' system into CLOS to later have to rename everything. (including the documentation.) 09:24:53 pnpuff [~pnpuff@gateway/tor-sasl/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 09:25:22 pavelpenev: it sucks because it installed SBCL 1.0.40.0.debian, which is about 10 years old 09:25:26 francogex: I never worry about those things. Also I build typically build these things from source (I noticed I get more documentation when I download the source.) 09:25:46 woudshoo: yeah I see; i think it's better 09:26:42 xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.213.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 09:27:12 woudshoo: ok, what is about free? 09:27:26 m7w [~chatzilla@178.172.228.43] has joined #lisp 09:27:27 I mean word "free" 09:28:14 asvil: ?? you lost me here. 09:28:52 woudshoo: usually, the ontologies of the different packages are quite different, therefore their symbols are quite different. If DELETE is the only name clash with the CL package, you could still export DELETE from the C library package, and just use shadowing-import to select which of the two delete you want to use. 09:28:56 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.184.144] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 09:29:21 Using a prefix, good- or g- systematically would only be good if there's a lot of common names. 09:30:07 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-142-164.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:30:48 pjb: Unfortunately it is not just delete. it includes: read, write, type, delete, open, list and probably a few more. 09:31:05 What library is it? 09:31:17 because almost all those functions are also in libc 09:31:21 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-142-164.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 09:31:56 woudshoo: what is about "%" prefix for all names? 09:32:07 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has quit [Quit: Close the world, Open the nExt] 09:32:08 No, % means private, dangerous. 09:32:10 pjb: libgit2. It basically is a c library exposing lots of functions like: commit-delete, tag-delete, ... to implement a poor mans object system. I want to rename this to delete and use generic functions to make it work. 09:32:35 I would use git-open git-read git-delete  09:32:50 git is short enough, it's good. 09:34:02 pjb: Yeah, that was one of my options. It is just that my brain somehow tries to put meaning into the 'git' part of 'git-free' 'git-name', 'git-version'. Instead of seeing it as a stupid prefix. 09:34:32 [SLB]` [~slabua@host247-111-dynamic.183-80-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 09:34:43 pjb: I might opt for git. If it is just me who gets confused. 09:34:53 -!- [SLB]` is now known as [SLB] 09:34:54 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@host247-111-dynamic.183-80-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Changing host] 09:34:54 [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has joined #lisp 09:36:41 pjb: Hm, using git will involve lot of lowlevel functions to %git or something like that. But well, that is ok. 09:36:57 You need to prefix by git only the functions exported from the package. 09:37:01 pjb: .. renaming lot of lowlevel functions ... 09:37:13 low level functions should not be exported so you can name them as you want. 09:38:37 pjb: Yes, true, but I am not sure if I want to expose only the 'clos' version of the libgit2 library, or also allow direct access to the plain c-functions. Also I am just modifying/extending Rusell Sim's Library. So there is an existing code base to change. But better now than later. 09:39:34 pjb: But you convinced me to go with 'git' and find another prefix for the c-version if needed, e.g. c-git. 09:42:55 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.6.113] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:43:59 iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has joined #lisp 09:46:33 MoALTz [~no@host-92-8-232-113.as43234.net] has joined #lisp 09:56:53 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.71.210] has joined #lisp 09:56:57 In typical Lisp compilers, would (CONSTANTLY 1) be any more or less efficient than (lambda (n) (declare (type fixnum n)) (declare (ignore n)) 1) ? 09:57:07 Less. 09:57:17 That is what I suspected since it's more general. 09:57:20 It would be (lambda (&rest args) (declare (ignore args)) 1) 09:58:08 On the other hand, compilers could optimize it out. 09:58:58 Or rather, they'd be allowed to replace (mapcar (constantly 1) list) by (make-list (length list) :initial-element 1); I don't know if any does that. 10:00:22 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 10:05:52 dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 10:06:08 add^_ [~add^_@m212-152-4-223.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 10:07:13 -!- Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:07:49 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 10:08:40 -!- benkard [~benkard@mnch-4d04eb06.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 10:10:43 charli_ [~charli@p5B025DE6.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:10:43 charli [~charli@p5B025DE6.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:11:05 -!- charli_ [~charli@p5B025DE6.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:11:05 -!- charli [~charli@p5B025DE6.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:11:40 ehu_ [~ehu@109.32.85.50] has joined #lisp 10:11:44 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@2-230-138-74.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:11:51 charli_ [~charli@p5B025DE6.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:11:52 charli [~charli@p5B025DE6.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:11:59 -!- charli [~charli@p5B025DE6.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:11:59 -!- charli_ [~charli@p5B025DE6.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:12:21 NikolaiDante [~nikolaida@unaffiliated/knighterrant] has joined #lisp 10:15:53 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 10:16:22 fantazo [~fantazo@213.129.230.10] has joined #lisp 10:18:17 killerboy [~mateusz@217.17.38.43] has joined #lisp 10:19:11 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-134-112.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: none] 10:19:19 -!- c_arenz [~arenz@HSI-KBW-109-193-252-079.hsi7.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:19:37 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-134-112.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 10:20:17 snearch [~snearch@f053014067.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 10:21:25 -!- add^_ [~add^_@m212-152-4-223.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: add^_] 10:22:35 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:25:01 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.32.250] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:29:07 -!- eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:29:19 tfb [~tfb@restormel.cley.com] has joined #lisp 10:31:13 -!- snearch [~snearch@f053014067.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:33:54 black_joe [~Kale@75-104-132-171.cust.wildblue.net] has joined #lisp 10:37:18 vantage|home [~vantage@12.33-242-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 10:37:29 -!- vantage|home [~vantage@12.33-242-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:39:31 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 10:43:41 ur5us [~ur5us@223.194.69.111.dynamic.snap.net.nz] has joined #lisp 10:44:51 snearch [~snearch@g225130204.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 10:46:02 -!- ur5us [~ur5us@223.194.69.111.dynamic.snap.net.nz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:47:30 I have a question about setf (or at least I think that's what the problem is). 10:47:31 http://pastebin.com/nNuTWDP7 10:47:42 In this code, assign does not work yet swap does. 10:48:14 Even though they both do the same type of assignment with setf. 10:49:01 black_joe: what code do you use to test if they work? 10:49:17 assign *does* swap x and y, but those variables only exist within the assign function 10:49:22 (assign *globalvariable* "string") 10:49:51 So then would there be a way to keep the values after the function like swap does? 10:50:09 You'd have to use macros 10:50:37 Oh, well I haven't learned how to use macros. I guess I will do that now, then. 10:50:40 macros are likely the solution indeed. 10:51:11 Also, you are aware that Common Lisp has a rotatef macro to do that? 10:51:11 black_joe: the problem is that x and y are bindings: they contain the values and their values are swapped within the function. 10:51:19 they don't "point" to the original variable. 10:51:25 functions can't change the bindings of the variables out of its scope. 10:51:29 their scopes. 10:51:48 said otherwise: lisp is only call by value, just like C. 10:52:00 Yeah swap does it. I'm guessing that (char) DOES use pointers? 10:52:10 My terminology may be off. I am fresh from C / Java. 10:52:36 (let ((a 10) (b 20)) (rotatef a b) (list a b)) => (20 10) 10:52:46 In swap, you're just modifying a string, not a binding. 10:53:25 Notice that in lisp, you can swap with rotatef or with psetf: (psetf a b b a) 10:53:53 So then strings get an exception to the pass-by-value nature of Lisp? 10:54:02 no 10:54:04 Oh. I'll just use them then. That makes the problem simpler. 10:54:12 No. strings ARE the value passed. 10:54:24 c_arenz [~arenz@HSI-KBW-109-193-252-079.hsi7.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 10:54:33 string, vectors, cons cells, numbers, conditions, functions, etc: all lisp objects are values. 10:54:40 variables are not lisp objects. 10:55:08 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:55:31 So then why would (defparameter *globalvar* "hello") (swap *globalvar* 1 2) *globalvar* -> hlelo work? 10:55:35 In general, you should not modify strings as you do in swap. 10:55:45 The problem is that there are immutable objects, for example, literal objects. 10:55:55 (swap "Hello" 1 4) would be wrong. 10:56:06 (let ((s "HellO")) (swap s 1 4)) would be wrong too. 10:56:22 It's for a really particular function. I should probably declare it locally, in fact. 10:56:23 Or your example: wrong. 10:57:23 Anything could happen when you do that: the process could crash, like in C, or you could get a condition, or nothing could happen, or it could "work", but with strange side effects. 10:58:14 The only side effect I've noticed so far is using an index above the length of the string. 10:58:18 And of course that is user error. 10:58:44 But I can just use rotatef, now that I know they exist. 10:59:02 The only reason I wanted (assign) was because four setf's and two lets for such a simple function seemed like overkill. 10:59:10 When you compile a file containing: (let ((s "Hello")) (swap s 1 2) (print "hello")) it could print hlelo. 10:59:27 The compiler can coalesce equal literal objects. 10:59:47 black_joe: why do you want to modify a string? 11:00:02 Well that's definitely a bad thing, then. 11:00:09 It's for use in scrambling a string. 11:00:23 It will have parts of it swapped based on random numbers. 11:00:25 It could be better to build a new string. 11:00:49 But assuming. You could write (rotatef (aref string ind1) (aref string ind2)) 11:00:55 (alexandria:shuffle "hello") => "ollhe" 11:00:57 Even: (unless skip (rotatef (aref string ind1) (aref string ind2))) 11:01:32 That is MUCH smaller than my existing code. 11:01:35 Thank you. 11:01:42 Or you could type (alexandria:shuffle M-. in *slime-repl*. 11:02:23 kiuma [~kiuma@2-230-138-74.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 11:04:53 -!- teggi [~teggi@113.172.54.215] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:06:32 -!- abeaumont [~alfredo@168.Red-88-7-16.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 11:06:48 abeaumont [~alfredo@168.Red-88-7-16.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 11:07:39 -!- abeaumont [~alfredo@168.Red-88-7-16.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Client Quit] 11:08:03 abeaumont [~alfredo@168.Red-88-7-16.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 11:09:06 momo-reina [~user@aa20111001946f573aa7.userreverse.dion.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 11:09:22 -!- asvil [~asvil@178.121.13.75] 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[~rwiker@52.84-48-39.nextgentel.com] has quit [Client Quit] 12:09:13 -!- benkard [~benkard@mnch-4d04eb06.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:10:23 -!- snearch [~snearch@g225130204.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 12:11:28 snearch [~snearch@g225130204.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 12:12:33 benkard [~benkard@mnch-4d04eb06.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 12:17:37 -!- benkard [~benkard@mnch-4d04eb06.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:27:37 gko [~user@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 12:28:19 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:31:05 veer [~veer@pool-173-65-234-164.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 12:31:29 -!- veer is now known as Guest98333 12:33:03 -!- lolsuper_ [~veer@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:33:17 rootlocus [~rootlocus@124-169-14-136.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 12:36:04 -!- JuanDaugherty [~Ren@cpe-72-228-189-184.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:38:43 abeaumont [~abeaumont@168.Red-88-7-16.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 12:41:31 hmmm. lisp or something else 12:41:41 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-154-132.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:41:50 lisp 12:42:37 I fixed my code from an hour ago. I figured I would share it here since it is laughably bad. 12:42:40 http://pastebin.com/tAPcTyTA 12:43:35 The good thing is it works now. Thanks to #lisp/ 12:44:33 quodlibet :) 12:46:05 LiamH [~healy@96.231.222.72] has joined #lisp 12:49:40 -!- Nisstyre_ [~yours@c-208-90-102-250.netflash.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:50:43 -!- snearch [~snearch@g225130204.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 12:52:03 snearch [~snearch@g225130204.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 12:53:01 [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has joined #lisp 12:53:06 benkard [~benkard@mnch-4d04eb06.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 12:55:04 lisp / fpga.. are there any opensource projects for building a lisp-machine on fpga 12:55:20 (thinking of the fpga retrocomputing scene..) 12:55:53 -!- pnpuff [~pnpuff@gateway/tor-sasl/pnpuff] has left #lisp 12:56:47 n00b6502: no, but there's a company that compiles lisp to FPGA for insanely fast financial transaction processing 12:57:22 the more functional side of it suits that i suppose 12:57:49 http://www.novasparks.com/ 12:59:16 -!- benkard [~benkard@mnch-4d04eb06.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:01:08 sambio_ [~sam@190.57.227.107] has joined #lisp 13:02:14 -!- sambio_ is now known as sambio 13:02:44 -!- sambio [~sam@190.57.227.107] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:04:00 i alwayd liked the idea of lisp for embeedding in C/C++ (e.g. the ability to make it very simple) but lua/python are more popular for that 13:04:37 sambio_ [~sam@190.57.227.107] has joined #lisp 13:06:25 -!- sambio_ is now known as sambio 13:09:36 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@37.99.50.32] has joined #lisp 13:09:36 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@37.99.50.32] has quit [Changing host] 13:09:36 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 13:10:01 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 13:10:36 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Client Quit] 13:11:39 n00b6502: Embeddable Common Lisp -> ECL -> http://ecls.sourceforge.net/ 13:19:49 -!- woudshoo [~user@ironhead.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:20:06 woudshoo [~user@ironhead.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 13:20:48 n00b6502: for lisp on fpga there ist http://opencores.org/project,igor and http://www.aviduratas.de/lisp/lispmfpga/ , though both don't get very far 13:21:26 i think there is a great need for good fpga dev tools first 13:21:40 -!- LiamH [~healy@96.231.222.72] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:22:14 LiamH [~healy@96.231.222.72] has joined #lisp 13:23:02 otwieracz [~gonet9@v6.gen2.org] has joined #lisp 13:25:45 -!- woudshoo [~user@ironhead.xs4all.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:25:47 black_joe: strings are vectors. vectors are sequences. If you use functions that work with sequences instead of vectors or strings, then your function swap could be more general than just for strings. 13:25:54 Ie. use elt instead of char. 13:26:26 (rotatef x x) works too (and does nothing). So there's no point in testing for equal elements first (just losing time). 13:27:32 We don't know what recnqual does, but it looks as suspicious as (not (equal (char ) (char ))). 13:29:15 mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.32.250] has joined #lisp 13:29:37 -!- c_arenz [~arenz@HSI-KBW-109-193-252-079.hsi7.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:30:14 -!- black_joe [~Kale@75-104-132-171.cust.wildblue.net] has quit [Quit: Internet crapout: black_joe] 13:32:15 airolson [~airolson@CPE00222d55a738-CM00222d55a735.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 13:34:21 kmee [~yhiselamu@lap.ee] has joined #lisp 13:35:30 how can I deep copy array of arrays? #("foo" "bar") 13:36:25 Implementing it yourself. 13:36:41 was hoping there's something in CL library or alexandria 13:36:42 -!- guther [guther@gateway/shell/bshellz.net/x-pguegvzrhgmavbel] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:36:42 There are various copy-array functions in various libraries, but they don't do deep copying. 13:36:56 ehu- [~ehu@109.32.85.50] has joined #lisp 13:36:59 trigen_ [~MSX@devvers.tweaknet.net] has joined #lisp 13:37:30 guther [guther@gateway/shell/bshellz.net/x-mavyetguzmrpxefl] has joined #lisp 13:37:35 -!- ehu_ [~ehu@109.32.85.50] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:38:49 I would do: (defun deep-copy (a) (let ((r (com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.array:copy-array a)) ) (loop for i below (array-total-size r) when (arrayp (row-major-aref r i)) do (setf (row-major-aref r i) (deep-copy (row-major-aref r i)))) r)) 13:39:33 leo2007 [~leo@182.48.111.218] has joined #lisp 13:39:42 Repeat after me, "Do not destructively modify literal objects." 13:39:49 -!- trigen [~MSX@2001:0:5ef5:79fd:3c65:34a5:2bd6:7949] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 13:40:02 -!- ehu- [~ehu@109.32.85.50] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:40:14 Where did we do that? 13:40:19 ehu_ [~ehu@109.32.85.50] has joined #lisp 13:40:35 -!- urandom__ [~user@ip-176-199-9-105.unitymediagroup.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:40:46 actually that's exactly what I did, and my function behaved in a funny way. that's why I want to do deep copy 13:41:00 pjb: Sorry, that wasn't in reference to anything you guys were discussing. I've been tracking down a bug that was exasperated by the fact that my tests were modifying literal objects. 13:41:05 kmee: If you don't modify data, you don't need to copy. 13:41:08 -!- ehu_ [~ehu@109.32.85.50] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:41:19 i am moving the elements around 13:41:30 It's very slow to copy. 13:41:38 not an issue here 13:41:44 -!- zeptis [~zeptis@c-50-129-69-74.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:41:51 ehu_ [~ehu@109.32.85.50] has joined #lisp 13:41:55 Build a new data structure with the elements ordered as you want, so that you don't have to copy them, and can keep references to the old elements. 13:42:14 it's simpler like this 13:42:46 Obviously not, if you have those problems 13:45:31 In any case it will be cheaper to build a new data structure than copying and then modifying it. 13:45:47 this is what i'm doing: http://paste.lisp.org/display/131409 . rewriting it without rotatef would be pretty messy 13:46:25 -!- ehu_ [~ehu@109.32.85.50] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:47:07 For chess (games), it's even worse: you want to explore a tree, with backtracking. If you modify the data structure, then you cannot easily backtrac, so you have to copy it, and as I said, just constructing the new state will be cheaper than duplicating the old state and modifying it. 13:48:37 this part of the code has nothing to do with chess algorithms. it just draws an ascii chess table given a history of moves 13:49:25 And in chess moves, you don't rotate cells. 13:51:49 God you're right. I tested only the opening and it looked good (ignoring the fact that it worked every second time I called it :) ) 13:52:03 eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 13:53:26 zodiac1111 [~zodiac111@124.90.132.31] has joined #lisp 13:54:15 woudshoo [~user@ironhead.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 13:54:21 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-142-164.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:54:39 mr20_ [~mr@109.227.8.148] has joined #lisp 13:54:47 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-142-164.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 13:56:33 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 13:56:37 Is anyone using slimv? How well does it work compared to slime? Seems to be updated frequently. 13:57:02 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@213.129.230.10] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 13:57:04 KingsKnighted [~quassel@c-174-52-149-13.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:57:25 slime is better! 13:57:25 stassats, memo from pjb: recently somebody issued a linux with the userland entirely written in Perl. 13:59:07 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@37.99.50.32] has joined #lisp 13:59:08 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@37.99.50.32] has quit [Changing host] 13:59:08 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 13:59:11 I know it is, but unfortunately you need to use emacs to use slime 13:59:55 i see no problem with this 14:00:46 emacs user (i assume) doesnt obviously 14:01:06 well, if you want to use the best tool for the job 14:01:51 qinix [~qinix@124.126.22.57] has joined #lisp 14:02:08 anyway it is in CL's interest to have more quality editing options. many peoplr who used vim for years arent willing to switch 14:02:22 -!- qinix [~qinix@124.126.22.57] has left #lisp 14:02:30 why spread efforts? 14:02:51 impulse [~impulse@bas3-toronto48-1096587484.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 14:03:14 and something's convinced those people to switch from another programming language to CL, why not switch the editor too? 14:03:22 besides, you can use emacs only for lisp 14:04:21 I am not looking for a new editor 14:05:33 well, no one forces you to use the best tools 14:06:58 -!- easye [~user@213.33.70.157] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 14:07:38 As a straight editor emacs is best only for getting carpal tunnel syndrome :) 14:08:09 mr20_: you can tell your jokes about emacs to #emacs 14:08:49 mr20_: you can try SLIME + (emacs with evil) 14:13:39 I am too used to vim to switch daimrod. Thanks anyway. Ill give slimv a try as soon as i get it working 14:14:19 it'll take a week or two to get accustomed (source: i've used vim before) 14:20:12 I've switched too. very happy with evil 14:25:32 Indecipherable [~Indeciphe@41.29.253.104] has joined #lisp 14:25:35 Forty-3 [~seana11@pool-96-255-130-43.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:26:49 add^_ [~add^_@m37-3-57-2.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 14:29:50 himynameisphil [~phil@S010600259cfd45d7.vw.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 14:29:54 is there a way to store a place? 14:30:28 kmee: no, place is just syntax 14:30:52 kmee: but what do you want to do? 14:31:46 mr20_: we aren't lisper-babies, unfortunately. We could have been, but unfortunately we had to learn other programming languages and other editors before. The only regret we have, is not having learned CL and emacs earlier! 14:32:09 kmee: there's a way to abstract it: (symbol-macrolet ((x (aref array 0))) (setf x 20)) 14:32:42 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.32.250] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:32:50 kmee: see http://www.informatimago.com/articles/usenet.html#C-like-pointers-in-Lisp 14:33:01 kmee: but it's not a good idea. 14:33:09 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:33:13 Why would you want to store a place? 14:33:21 -!- kennyd [kennyd@93-136-89-61.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:34:03 pjb its a shame you have to use emacs to work with CL properly 14:34:29 mr20_: Well, we could adivse you Hemlock, but emacs is also useful for non CL work. 14:34:44 it keeps a lot of potential CL users away. 14:34:47 and hemlock is unusable for anythin 14:34:47 g 14:35:03 If we used it more, it become more usable fast. 14:36:01 mr20_: CL is usable without emacs but you'll miss a lot of thing. (like java with Eclipse or JavaScript without Firebug) 14:36:32 LaughingMan [~chatzilla@p5B0C0D9E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 14:36:57 it's a bit much to expect emacs users to write the vim plugins you want 14:37:15 There are already at least TWO vi emulations written for emacs! 14:37:56 the fact that vim doesn't have a sane scripting language doesn't help 14:38:07 -!- sellout [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:39:05 sellout42 [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:40:27 -!- Fullmoon [~Fullmoon@h081217030118.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Quit: Fullmoon] 14:42:42 easye [~user@213.33.70.157] has joined #lisp 14:43:59 -!- sporous [~sporous@antispammeta/bot/irssi/sporous] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:44:30 mr20_: would you be more happy if there were an IDE which was neither emacs-style, nor vim-style? 14:45:56 Actually there are several such IDEs. 14:46:14 pjb: nothing full-featured 14:46:24 -!- kmee [~yhiselamu@lap.ee] has quit [Quit: #yhiselamu | www.yhiselamu.ee (EOF)] 14:46:38 MCLIDE, Jabberwocky, etc. 14:46:50 VLIDE 14:47:31 -!- marshtopping [~book@static-50-43-23-161.bvtn.or.frontiernet.net] has quit [Quit: 'bye.] 14:49:58 stassats: not significantly more. I have been editing everything in vim for over 5 years 14:50:59 mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-66-73-241.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:51:33 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.71.210] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:52:10 marshtopping [~book@static-50-43-23-161.bvtn.or.frontiernet.net] has joined #lisp 14:53:13 mr20_: While learning CL, I woudl suggest that you code it like you would a shell script, or a python script. Use rlwrap and the common lisp interpreter for basic tests and use file loading for larger programs. When you have a handle on the language better, start taking a look at emacs. 14:53:24 tensorpudding [~michael@108.87.23.209] has joined #lisp 14:53:55 Actually I'd suggest linedit rather than rlwrap. 14:54:04 rlwrap is quirky and unpredictable sometimes. 14:54:30 antoszka: Ah, I was satisfied with rlwrap, so I never took the time to try another one out. 14:54:55 or use clisp, it doesn't need rlwrap since it already has readline (and a good debugger). 14:55:18 http://www.cliki.net/CLX/TutorialClispDebugger 14:56:58 -!- ace4016 [~ace4016@cpe-024-074-197-085.ec.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: brb] 14:57:28 Haven't used CL For quite some time 0_o 14:57:29 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-66-73-241.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 14:57:29 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:57:47 mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-66-73-241.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:58:43 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 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[~ivan@189.61.221.122] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:41:49 -!- Ralith_ is now known as Ralith 17:44:34 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:46:29 woudshoo [~user@ironhead.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 17:50:33 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-87-79-194-178.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 17:54:20 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 17:55:01 help for cl-who, please: 17:55:07 I've got something like this: 17:55:13 (cl-who:with-html-output-to-string (str) (:select :name "..." (loop ... do (cl-who:htm (:option :value (cl-who:str variable) 17:55:20 but the expansion gives me 17:55:32 (WRITE-STRING " etc. which is clearly wrong. Where's my bug? 17:55:42 mr20_: you can try lispworks personal edition if you dislike emacs so much: http://www.lispworks.com/products/lispworks.html franz also has a free version of their IDE I believe. 17:56:05 cl-who-0.11.1 from july or june quicklisp, IIRC 17:58:12 flip214: using STR for :value 17:58:25 flip214: should be just :value variable 17:58:29 mr20_: Also I switched from vim to emacs after some frustration with setting up slimv(maybe its better now?). 17:58:44 -!- JPeterson [~JPeterson@s213-103-211-58.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:01:50 stassats: thanks, I had that, too - didn't work 18:02:10 pavelpenev: when was that? works like a charm for me (debian linux, slime from quicklisp) 18:02:25 flip214: didn't work as in? 18:02:42 flip214: more than 2 years ago probably, I can't remember the details. 18:02:44 stassats: same problem, (write-string "<..." LET ...) 18:02:50 ISF [~ivan@189.61.221.122] has joined #lisp 18:02:58 pavelpenev: hmm, thats a long time ago ;) 18:03:14 I'd wish for somebody to help with hemlock - providing VIM keybindings ... 18:03:31 -!- impulse [~impulse@bas3-toronto48-1096587484.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 18:03:38 flip214: full code? 18:04:41 http://paste.lisp.org/display/131413 18:06:08 I've already used cl-who in the past, and it should only be some small detail ... 18:06:34 flip214: not related, but &rest would not work in loop and is not needed 18:07:29 stassats: it doesn't? hmm, then I perhaps remembered it from iterate 18:07:36 flip214: that code seems fine 18:07:41 but it doesn't look complete 18:07:50 there's a (defun) around 18:07:54 that I didn't paste 18:08:01 nothing more 18:08:18 *nothing else 18:08:29 flip214: it's mostly because I couldn't understand cl-who that I wrote com.informatimago.common-lisp.html-generator.html. 18:08:53 flip214: are you sure that you're running this code and not some stale version of it? 18:09:16 stassats: I'm trying (macroexpand-1) on the (cl-who:w-h-o-t-s) via swank 18:09:49 and yes, if I change eg. the name to namea that gets reflected in the macroexpand output 18:10:12 trying to compile that file gives a lot of (understandable) errors 18:10:17 how macroexpansion look isn't going to affect the compiled function 18:10:32 yeah, but the macroexpand output is wrong already 18:10:48 asdf won't compile the file (only contents: a (in-package) and this (defun) 18:10:49 ) 18:11:01 pjb: you should add it to http://www.cliki.net/HTML%20generator 18:11:13 flip214: can you paste the whole file? 18:11:46 daimrod: the name wouldn't probably fit into the max character limit 18:12:03 daimrod: thanks to mention it. I'll add it. 18:12:32 stassats: annotated 18:13:08 flip214: for one thing, parenthesis don't match 18:13:57 stassats: thanks, but that doesn't changes the macroexpand output ;) 18:15:05 *change 18:15:07 but does the function work? 18:15:15 once you actually compile it 18:15:18 no, compiling the file gives errors 18:15:24 what errors? 18:15:32 Illegal function call in method body: ((#:G1289 NIL)) 18:15:50 because the LET is mixed in the (write-string) level 18:15:58 edgar-rft [~GOD@HSI-KBW-078-043-123-191.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 18:16:05 do you want my macroexpand output, too? 18:16:24 well, wouldn't hurt 18:16:24 -!- pnpuff [~pnpuff@gateway/tor-sasl/pnpuff] has left #lisp 18:16:41 and the package definition of WEB-UI.RESTAS 18:18:21 -!- ISF [~ivan@189.61.221.122] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:18:29 here you are 18:18:44 (restas:define-module #:web-ui.restas (:use :cl :cl-who :web-ui) (:export ...))) 18:18:55 but I don't think that this should cause such a problem 18:19:22 for completeness: (defpackage #:web-ui (:use #:cl) (:export...))) 18:19:47 ISF [~ivan@189.61.221.122] has joined #lisp 18:21:19 -!- peterhil` [~peterhil@91-157-48-51.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Quit: Must not waste too much time here...] 18:21:39 oh, damn 18:23:02 hrmpf, no. not the bug. 18:23:44 found a (presumed old, defunct) (defmethod cl-who:convert-tag-to-string-list) for cl:loop - but commenting it out and reloading SBCL doesn't help, same bug 18:24:29 -!- ghast` is now known as ghast 18:24:38 just verified, no method active (apart from the cl-who one) 18:27:43 flip214: how exactly did you obtain this macorexpansion? 18:28:01 it doesn't look like anything here 18:28:35 for that matter, can you delete cl-who fasls and reload it? 18:29:02 stassats: ,m1 in slimv => uses swank and macroexpand 18:29:04 yes, will do 18:30:41 DDR [~chatzilla@d66-183-118-10.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 18:32:12 oh, i see 18:32:13 you can stop 18:32:19 removed cache, recompiled everything (sbcl 1.0.58), same problem 18:32:31 what made the difference for you? 18:32:33 flip214: change cl-who:with-html-output-to-string (str) to cl-who:with-html-output-to-string (stream) 18:33:06 well, i didn't have an ancient cl-who, so it was not a problem for me, got 0.11.1 and was able to reproduce it 18:33:13 hey, thanks!!! 18:33:37 ql didn't give me a newer version when I asked it half an hour ago ... 18:33:39 H4ns: did you here that? it's time for a new cl-who release! 18:33:48 flip214: because there isn't 18:33:56 s/here/hear/ 18:33:58 ah, good reason ;) 18:34:10 good to know that it's not (directly) my bug ;) 18:34:27 can you point me to the line in who.lisp? 18:34:32 or are there many changes? 18:35:03 well, from the differrent macroexpansion, it's not a single line 18:35:08 logger_ [~logger@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 18:35:23 it's just better not to use str, htm or esc for variables 18:35:29 -!- logger_ [~logger@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Client Quit] 18:35:40 the cl-who on github have no changes in the last year 18:35:53 but I didn't use str, htm or esc! 18:36:10 well, you did 18:36:18 -!- steffi_s [~marioooh@bas5-montreal28-1178024994.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: zzzz] 18:36:33 only tried to, didn't mean to :P 18:36:47 no, that str: flip214: change cl-who:with-html-output-to-string (str) to cl-who:with-html-output-to-string (stream) 18:36:55 "for variables" 18:37:22 and there are changes to cl-who in this year 18:37:27 oh, that str. 18:37:34 not that it matters, since 0.11.1 is 4 years old 18:38:22 logger_ [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 18:38:40 -!- logger_ [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Client Quit] 18:39:13 and i usually use *standard-output*, it's becomes easy to compose cl-who across functions 18:39:36 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 18:39:52 well, I'm fairly sure that I always did use "str" for "stream" 18:40:01 *standard-output* is much longer to type ;) 18:40:34 i have a with-html macro for that 18:40:47 eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 18:41:17 -!- lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Client Quit] 18:41:25 hmmm, perhaps cl-who could get that as default value for the stream name ... had to be specified up to now, so there shouldn't be a compatibility problem 18:41:48 lggr [~lggr@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 18:42:29 mixing &optionals with &keys is bad, which it already does 18:42:41 but mixing two optional with keys is disastrous 18:43:31 Tristam [~Tristam@bodhilinux/team/Tristam] has joined #lisp 18:43:48 well, just error out if the stream is a keyword 18:44:39 stassats: THANK YOU very much. Especially on a Saturday night! 18:50:28 peterhil [~peterhil@91-157-48-51.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 18:51:47 opened a github issue pleading for a new release 18:54:38 -!- c_arenz [~arenz@HSI-KBW-109-193-252-079.hsi7.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 18:57:25 stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-000-205.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 18:57:45 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:58:18 -!- superflit [~superflit@75-171-206-100.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:58:35 -!- am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:02:13 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-142-164.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:02:27 Yuuhi``` [benni@p5483948C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:03:00 katsmeow-afk [~someone@unaffiliated/katsmeow] has joined #lisp 19:03:02 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-142-164.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:03:34 *katsmeow-afk* has a question concernening the 1960's: SHRDLU 19:03:48 it was written in LIPS, and didn't take over the world 19:03:52 why didn't it? 19:03:58 err, LISP 19:03:58 -!- Yuuhi`` [~user@p5483AC83.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:04:55 perhaps the world was not ready for it? 19:05:14 is the world ready yet? 19:06:16 i am just not finding a lot on SHRDLU's faults, only that it worked for pyramids, a few colors, and blocks,, and "failed to deal with the real world", but not why 19:06:35 -!- turbolen1 is now known as turbolent 19:06:37 because the real world is too complex? 19:07:37 but it's still just shapes, colors, and objects 19:07:38 katsmeow-afk: The world will never be ready for lisp, anymore than Charlie Parker will outsell Lady Gaga. 19:08:14 i'm not into jazz 19:08:22 axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-88-224.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:08:41 katsmeow-afk: but you agree that its of higher quality than pop music? 19:09:04 katsmeow-afk: lisp is used, may be not for mass market 19:09:19 in several ways, but it may not be any more listenable than modern pop 19:09:28 the end user doesn't really care if lisp is used though 19:09:52 the world is optimized for the worst solution that can work most of the time. 19:10:15 yeas, i am not so much discussing lisp, but there is no #SHRDLU , and SHRDLU is written in lisp, so i took a long shot and asked in here 19:10:16 katsmeow-afk: it's only these things for you 19:10:46 ace didn't tell me of a better place to ask, and no one is #ai is talking 19:10:48 _d3f [~d3f@gateway/tor-sasl/d3f/x-39752107] has joined #lisp 19:11:00 and it's research, it doesn't have to take over the world to influence the world 19:11:08 kats, i have a feeling it's more because it didn't have a marketable use. it was cool, interesting, progressive, but there was no use for it. it wasn't put into a simple to use package 19:12:03 :-/ 19:12:39 especially considering the time period it came out. no one had a use for it; now they sort of do (google voice command on teh android and siri on iphone) 19:13:19 or language translation, vehicle navigation, etc 19:13:31 also, lots of companies are using voice prompts to get customers through the ropes faster as well 19:13:51 SHRDLU is likely not voice prompts 19:14:20 i don't think so, but it's the modern day application of natural langauge processing 19:14:40 it's a more usable package 19:14:44 if-then stacks, simple stuff 19:15:34 driving a car from point A to B involves not squeezing the car thru the window on a bus, for instance 19:16:35 -!- edgar-rft [~GOD@HSI-KBW-078-043-123-191.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Quit: nuclear meltdown] 19:16:42 SHRDLU was plainly capable of that problem in not trying to balance blocks on pyramids 19:17:13 -!- weinholt [weinholt@debian/emeritus/weinholt] has quit [] 19:17:15 i mean, the code was already written, just add data and some more parameters 19:17:41 and at that point, i am asking around to find out why that didn't work 19:18:19 -!- iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 19:19:12 heh, that probably goes more into various other things; if such a program was recreated again with what we know now and utlizing the most useful techniques, we might be closer to something more usable. I don't think shrdlu was advanced enough... (well, clearly it wasn't considering it failed to deal with the real world bit :P) 19:19:39 A shit ton of cool an promising tech from the 60's, 70's and 80's didn't make it, the industry is sort of short sighted like that. 19:20:02 -!- Oxyd_ is now known as Oxyd 19:21:25 or maybe we're viewing the past through rosy self-serving glasses. IIUC, nobody managed to run SHRDLU except Winograd and his grad students. 19:21:26 pavelpenev: no, it's free-market! blame the consumers 19:21:31 i prefer not to dwell on the past and instead try to use the lessons learned to move on. shrdlu failed, so it's up to something else to surpass it 19:22:08 ace, i am asking *why* it failed, what were it's failure modes, it's triggers to fail, etc 19:22:57 i don't think i know enough specifics about shrdlu; also, what pkhuong said: perhaps the only ones that can truly comment on it are the people that have used it and experienced it; that put it through its paces 19:23:30 -!- woudshoo [~user@ironhead.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: going to bed] 19:24:12 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:26:13 i dont' think enough projects write post-mortems so that others (including themselves) can learn lessons from the projects 19:28:48 pkhuong: if you write some more high-quality articles like the one about tabasco sort nobody else will try to write one, because it seems futile after your performance 19:29:28 sounds like a challenge 19:31:50 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@217.17.38.43] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 19:31:58 -!- eni [~eni@gob75-5-82-230-88-217.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:32:10 iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has joined #lisp 19:32:20 well, reading his blog posts makes me feel real empty in some way ... like "I'll never find the time to make such nice conclusions and graphics about things I'm interested in" 19:32:49 killerboy [~mateusz@217.17.38.43] has joined #lisp 19:33:08 you can do that over several days 19:33:18 who cares if it'll take more time 19:34:47 -!- lcc [~lcc@unaffiliated/lcc] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net] 19:34:59 mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.32.250] has joined #lisp 19:35:33 -!- iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has quit [Client Quit] 19:39:09 stassats: well, my free time is about an hour each work-day, split into 2 train sessions ... not much to achieve that way 19:41:07 -!- ``Erik_ is now known as ``Erik 19:41:18 good example of a lot of text that does not tell me anything : http://web.archive.org/web/20040203055633/http://www.ee.cooper.edu/courses/course_pages/past_courses/EE459/AIHO4/ 19:41:56 "it crashed a lot" (then why not debug it?), "it probably won't handle" (then make it handle), etc 19:42:28 -!- axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-88-224.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8] 19:42:46 axion [~axion@cpe-67-242-88-224.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:43:07 -!- snearch [~snearch@g225130204.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 19:43:53 Andrey Lebedev (andremoniy@gmail.com) sent us links for this demo and this demo of a SHRDLU-like system implemented by Moscow State Institute of Electronics and Mathematics students in 2009. 19:44:45 [Terry] made some direct patches to the Lisp assembly code and never back propagated them to his Lisp source... We kept around the very program image that Terry constructed and used it whenever we could. As an image, [SHRDLU] couldn't keep up with the periodic changes to the ITS, and gradually more and more bit rot set in. 19:44:56 One of the last times we used it we only got it to display a couple of lines. In the early days... that original image ran like a top and never broke. Our rewrite was equally so... The version we assembled circa 1972/1973 was utterly robust... 19:45:02 can you stop? 19:45:15 that tells me the OS was changed out from under the program 19:45:28 yes, i can stop 19:45:36 -!- katsmeow-afk [~someone@unaffiliated/katsmeow] has left #lisp 19:46:02 impulse [~impulse@bas3-toronto48-1177937596.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 19:49:33 -!- pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has left #lisp 19:49:43 pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 19:51:23 -!- pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:52:02 pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 19:52:26 -!- pjb is now known as Guest68972 19:52:50 -!- Guest68972 is now known as pjb 19:56:54 Indecipherable [~Indeciphe@41.13.28.189] has joined #lisp 19:58:50 dnolen [~user@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:02:54 -!- kuzary [~who@gateway/tor-sasl/kuzary] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:03:21 -!- PuercoPop [~PuercoPop@190.41.173.174] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 20:04:47 kuzary [~who@gateway/tor-sasl/kuzary] has joined #lisp 20:09:28 iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has joined #lisp 20:12:31 -!- kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:12:49 kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 20:13:50 pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has joined #lisp 20:14:34 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.32.250] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:15:09 -!- impulse [~impulse@bas3-toronto48-1177937596.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:16:44 impulse [~impulse@bas3-toronto48-1176441543.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 20:20:03 -!- dreish [~dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [Quit: dreish] 20:20:55 PuercoPop [~PuercoPop@190.41.173.174] has joined #lisp 20:27:00 mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has joined #lisp 20:27:01 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has quit [Changing host] 20:27:01 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 20:30:46 -!- Ralith [~ralith@216.162.199.202] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 20:33:44 -!- bjorkintosh [~bjork@ip68-13-229-200.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:36:20 -!- pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:36:38 kiuma [~kiuma@2-230-138-74.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 20:45:56 -!- Fullmoon [~Fullmoon@h081217030118.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Quit: Fullmoon] 20:51:04 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:52:50 nightfly_ [~sage@sagenite.net] has joined #lisp 20:52:57 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-66-73-241.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 20:53:25 Is there an easy way to repeat the last form you entered in the SLIME REPL? 20:53:37 nightfly_: M-p 20:53:47 -!- add^_ [~add^_@m37-3-57-2.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: add^_] 20:54:22 nightfly_: (eval +) 20:54:49 no 20:55:38 Yes it does. 20:55:44 -!- asvil [~asvil@178.121.13.75] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:56:07 lcc [~lcc@unaffiliated/lcc] has joined #lisp 20:56:13 M-p doesn't repeat the evaluation of the last form, it just inserts it. You would have to type M-p RET to do the same. 20:56:37 stassats: Cool thanks. 20:56:38 But (eval +) has the advantage of working in all CL REPL, not just in slime. 20:56:42 pjb: yes, it's another pointless advice 20:58:36 It has a point: learn more about the CL environment dictionary: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/c_enviro.htm 21:00:10 (eval *)? 21:00:25 no that's the result ok 21:02:10 -!- bitonic [~user@027cae25.bb.sky.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:03:05 -!- ISF [~ivan@189.61.221.122] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:06:28 bege [~bege@S0106001d7e5132b0.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 21:07:54 -!- dnolen [~user@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:13:47 replore_ [~replore@FLH1Ahd118.kng.mesh.ad.jp] has joined #lisp 21:25:48 superflit [~superflit@63-228-84-30.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 21:26:40 -!- Indecipherable [~Indeciphe@41.13.28.189] has quit [Quit: used jmIrc] 21:28:06 ticking [~janpaulbu@87.253.189.132] has joined #lisp 21:29:35 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-54-3.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 21:30:39 -!- s0ber [~s0ber@114-25-201-96.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:31:51 add^_ [~add^_@m37-3-57-2.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 21:32:26 s0ber [~s0ber@114-25-195-228.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 21:35:46 lo commies! 21:35:48 lol 21:35:54 :) 21:36:18 someone had too much booze 21:38:29 ISF [~ivan@189.61.221.122] has joined #lisp 21:38:52 -!- Alice3 [~Alice@cpc3-grim12-0-0-cust856.12-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [] 21:41:28 fewwwwwwwwwwww 21:42:41 -!- ticking [~janpaulbu@87.253.189.132] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 21:43:23 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-168-152.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:52:38 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 21:54:30 kmels [~kmels@HSI-KBW-078-043-223-122.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 21:54:37 -!- ehu [ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:55:20 ticking [~janpaulbu@87.253.189.132] has joined #lisp 21:56:01 antonv [5d7d31f9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.49.249] has joined #lisp 21:56:21 -!- Guest60729 is now known as lolsuper_ 21:56:25 -!- lolsuper_ [~veer@pool-173-65-234-164.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 21:56:25 lolsuper_ [~veer@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 21:58:30 zort- [~eitan@bas1-toronto07-1176320287.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 21:59:23 Since there's no MACROLET* in CL, am I doing something wrong if I find myself wanting a MACROLET*? 22:00:20 macro bindings in a macrolet are visible to each other anyway, do you mean something else? 22:00:35 -!- add^_ [~add^_@m37-3-57-2.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: add^_] 22:00:53 really? 22:01:03 (macrolet ((foo () 1) (bar () (foo))) (bar)) is an error 22:01:17 That is, undefined function FOO. 22:01:29 why are you doing this? 22:01:40 (macrolet ((foo () 1) (bar () `(foo))) (bar)) 22:01:42 problem solved 22:01:51 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@2-230-138-74.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:01:59 doy 22:02:46 scottj [~scott@206.212.250.58] has joined #lisp 22:03:58 "thanks" more like 22:05:16 mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-66-73-241.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:06:12 mritz [~textual@cpe-66-25-166-122.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:07:26 -!- _d3f [~d3f@gateway/tor-sasl/d3f/x-39752107] has quit [Quit: (EXT:QUIT)] 22:09:56 -!- stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-000-205.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 22:22:33 i liked the way clojure makes maps,vectors etc callable functoins for accesing their contents.. is that unique to clojure ? 22:23:03 (defonce a { :x 1 :y 2 } ) (print (a :x)) => 1 nice 22:24:08 hows that better than (print (getf a :x)) ? 22:24:37 I prefer an explicit get too. 22:24:40 getf clearly shows what structure you're dealing with 22:24:57 you know what structure it is because you defined it :) 22:25:17 Not if you're reading somebody else's code. 22:25:40 not if it's passed from somewhere else 22:25:42 not if your code deals with others' structures. 22:25:43 you could also say it makes the code more generic and versatile: instead of passing in a vector you *could* pass in a function 22:25:44 newLISP has that, FWIW. 22:26:12 n00b6502, define (get fun x) = (fun x). 22:26:24 -!- Bike [~Glossina@63-229-129-146.ptld.qwest.net] has left #lisp 22:26:26 get is already taken! 22:26:32 wait, no. 22:26:35 disregard me. 22:26:49 i was wondering if it was actually worth passing lambdas to access objects instead of objects 22:26:51 (fetch fun x) 22:26:55 to get that behaviour 22:27:06 n00b6502: no, it's stupid 22:27:29 this is the second thing i've found in clojure.. where people told me "what you want is stupid" but another language has it :) 22:27:38 maybe you guys are simply too set in your ways 22:27:41 and lack imagination 22:27:42 -!- mritz [~textual@cpe-66-25-166-122.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 22:27:48 on how things can be improved 22:28:12 that is the conclusion i have from 70% of what i read here. 22:28:22 yes, we are, you now move on 22:28:24 n00b6502: you can have funcallable objects. 22:28:30 you can 22:29:00 n00b6502, what's ((list 1) 2)? 22:29:17 error 22:29:27 who needs some whippersnappers telling how their language should look? 22:29:42 I like my functions to be total. 22:30:04 you know, FP and all. 22:30:12 ok it can be 'nil' if you like 22:31:12 what's the difference between ((list 1 nil) 2) and ((list 1) 2), then? 22:31:34 none, nobody would write anything like that 22:31:35 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-142-164.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:32:03 someone WILL trip over it. 22:32:19 DT`: that's exactly like NTH behaves 22:32:31 and cadr, and caddr 22:32:40 yes- well how is it any different to calling a function to get the nth item 22:32:42 stassats, yes. 22:32:47 and? 22:33:19 This channel bewilders me sometimes. 22:33:42 so nth is not a total function. remove it from the spec! its evil!! people will trip over it!!! 22:33:43 improving CL is important, but not by making it more confusing for the sake of debatable convenience. 22:33:59 n00b6502, indeed. 22:34:19 ok well so far +2 to clojure from me 22:34:20 pavelpenev: and improving implies some betterment, not just shuffling around 22:34:34 (nth (list 1) 2 :default default-value) would be better. 22:35:09 you can use ELT if you need boundary checks 22:35:43 it would be better to not raise an error. 22:36:02 cool and useful things from clojure: persistent data structures, concurency constructs, tools for abstraction. debatable features: syntactic sugar. 22:36:13 if :default is a procedure, call it, default it to raise an error. 22:36:22 but give me the choice to make it total. 22:36:50 check the length beforehand 22:37:05 that's like checking for NULL in C. 22:38:00 DT`: if 'nth' is not to your taste (totality) is there something other than CL you use 22:38:00 and it's bad because? 22:38:12 stassats, it can be avoided? 22:38:25 what do you gain by checking for NULL? 22:38:33 or checking the length beforehand. 22:38:57 heck if i know, you wanted to make sure it doesn't return NIL 22:39:03 -!- replore_ [~replore@FLH1Ahd118.kng.mesh.ad.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:39:07 n00b6502: Syntactic sugar causes cancer of the semicolon. - Erik Naggum. 22:39:15 heh 22:39:33 its still mostly nested brackets 22:39:38 pavelpenev: not quite 22:39:40 the things i like about clojure don't include any imrovements to syntax 22:39:55 stassats, because NIL might be a legitimate value in the list. 22:40:02 and that's like NUL in C strings. 22:40:21 and it's bad because I can't have NULs in C strings. 22:40:26 pavelpenev: alan perlis, iirc. 22:40:34 just before you ask. 22:40:45 Xach: ah, I misremembered :) 22:40:52 NIL is not like NUL in C strings 22:40:59 in this case it is. 22:41:03 ok the best is that nth is simply a function with known hazard. 22:41:10 'use it at your peril' 22:41:11 pavelpenev: Erik had this: "Whoever decided to use the semicolon to _end_ something should just be decided to use the semicolon to _end_ something should just be." 22:41:16 err 22:41:26 pavelpenev: Erik had this: "Whoever decided to use the semicolon to _end_ something should just be taken out and have his colon semified." 22:41:49 yeah, easy to confuse my mental pattern matcher. 22:41:52 DT`: it's completely different 22:42:05 i take it you guys dont like "object.member" 22:42:12 since full stop should be the end 22:42:36 stassats, how do you know that a NIL returned by nth is a legit value or an ``error''? 22:42:53 how do you know in a C string that a NUL is a legitimate character or the end of the string? 22:43:01 same thing, different context. 22:43:03 why should it be an error? 22:43:16 if it's an error for your application, don't use NTH 22:43:20 problem solved 22:43:57 it hurts when I do this. ``then stop doing it''. 22:44:03 DT` is there a lisp variant that is pure/safe etc 22:44:04 sure, that's the right thing to do. 22:44:35 n00b6502: depends on your definition of pure and/or safe. 22:44:37 replore_ [~replore@FLH1Ahd118.kng.mesh.ad.jp] has joined #lisp 22:44:46 n00b6502, not that I know, but some at least try to get close to it. 22:44:56 a pure Lisp would be nice. 22:44:57 DT`: exactly, don't do things which are not suitable 22:45:43 stassats, but my nth is backwards-compatible AND does solve the problem. 22:45:45 n00b6502: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shen_(programming_language) might be interesting 22:45:53 wasn't Lisp about doing The Right Thing? 22:45:56 DT`: there's no problem 22:46:05 sure, if you ignore it. 22:46:07 lisp appears to be about history 22:46:13 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-66-73-241.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 22:46:35 n00b6502: actually lisp is what you make of it. At least thats how I chose to view it. 22:46:42 n00b6502, common lisp, that is. 22:46:59 nth is exactly designed to be compatible with CAR and CDR behaviour on NIL 22:47:09 one question, at what point is it lisp 22:47:18 at what point is it not lisp 22:47:18 stassats, that means that CAR and CDR are both wrong! 22:47:23 i don't see how what it does by design is a problem 22:47:24 if you don't like something, fix it, pay somebody to fix it, or shut up and live with it not being fixed. 22:47:26 NIL is not a cons, it's a NIL. 22:47:50 NIL is a list 22:47:59 francogrex [~francogre@109.130.184.247] has joined #lisp 22:48:02 a list is not a cons, it's either a cons or NIL. 22:48:21 try (consp NIL). 22:48:23 i'm happy to see an argument with someone other than me here 22:48:45 DT`: what? 22:48:55 stassats, what what? 22:49:08 what has (consp NIL) to do with anything? 22:49:11 (listp x) = (or (consp x) (null x)). 22:49:11 if you removed car and cdr... would it still be lisp 22:49:12 n00b6502: I don't get your question, are you looking for a definition of "lisp dialect"? 22:49:14 car and cdr work on lists, not on conses 22:49:16 yes 22:49:28 stassats, and that's wrong. 22:49:34 says who? 22:49:40 me. 22:49:43 and the rest of the world. 22:49:47 DT`: #scheme is that way 22:49:54 what about it? 22:49:58 this is #lisp. 22:50:05 not #common-lisp. 22:50:10 DT take it easy and learn from here 22:50:11 check the topic 22:50:14 no, it's #(common)lisp 22:50:33 francogrex, I can't be more calm, sorry if I appear angry. 22:50:36 -!- mr20_ [~mr@109.227.8.148] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:50:45 Common Lisp heh ok 22:50:52 DT`: scheme has a separate channel, so does emacs, so does clojure. 22:50:59 paul0 [~paul0@177.16.148.140] has joined #lisp 22:51:12 i saw this on C++... 22:51:15 urandom__ [~user@p548A3D62.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:51:27 when i wrote in scheme, i was so fed up of doing constant checks for NIL when using CAR and CDR that i had to redefine them to accept it 22:51:29 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-8-232-113.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:51:33 pavelpenev, well, my argument still stands, what's the rationale for that, other than hystorical reasons? 22:51:42 *historical 22:52:41 anyway, whatever, I'm not here to force my opinion onto others. 22:52:52 DT`: because it's damn convenient 22:53:36 stassats, convenience is not always right. 22:53:58 I have a very strong hunch that any forum focused on general lisp discussion(any dialect allowed) would be doomed to failure. 22:54:00 i don't know what sort of "right" or "wrong" you're talking about 22:54:18 pavelpenev, it really would. 22:54:25 "right" by what standard? 22:54:26 fantazo [~fantazo@91-119-125-214.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 22:54:42 oh clojure doesn't have keyword arguments 22:54:49 stassats, nevermind, think whatever makes you sleep at night. 22:55:16 n00b6502: in 10 years when they divorce them selves from the jvm they might. 22:55:38 and multiple values as well 22:55:54 pavelpenev: who knows, maybe multiple values are wrong too 22:56:01 multiple values rock 22:56:05 multiple values shouldn't be difficult to implement. 22:56:07 on JVM. 22:56:19 and lisp-n 22:56:27 and a dosen other things. 22:56:28 -!- Euthy [~euthy@unaffiliated/euthydemus] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 22:56:38 pavelpenev: isn't it called Common Lisp? 22:56:42 Euthy [~euthy@unaffiliated/euthydemus] has joined #lisp 22:56:42 it's already there 22:56:54 yeah, thats why I'm here, and not on #clojure 22:57:52 oh well, if it's not even #common-lisp here, but just #common-lisp-circlejerk, I'm out of here. 22:57:58 no offence. 22:57:58 DT`: if you have a serious interest in why CL was designed the way it was there are plenty of available historical documents that cover many of the issues. Why this behavior isn't a problem within CL is really a different question. 22:58:16 DT`: being hosted on the JVM is how rhickey has rationalized many misfeatures. 22:58:56 Vivitron, I do have a serious interest (learning is never bad). 22:58:59 like protocols being single dispatch only, so they can map to java interfaces. 22:59:10 ah another misfeature 22:59:16 -!- punee [~punee@213-245-106-105.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Quit: punee] 22:59:25 but when people is religious about things, well, it makes me vomit in my mouth a little. 22:59:26 and the horribly ugly loop/recur nonsense. 22:59:36 pavelpenev, I'm not a Clojurer myself. 22:59:38 DT` kind of started it :) 22:59:41 I don't even like clojure. 22:59:44 *stassats* is amazed 23:00:06 my quest for the correct language continue 23:00:08 s 23:00:35 n00b6502: no language is the correct one. do what I did, pick the one that pisses you off the least. 23:01:13 at this point i'm thinking "better the devil you know"... 23:01:26 define "correct" 23:01:40 whatever i decree to be correct :) 23:02:08 fair enough 23:02:09 mr20_ [~mr@109.227.8.148] has joined #lisp 23:02:23 (where next after c++ for me) 23:02:47 n00b6502: honestly, any direction is the correct one :) 23:03:35 everything has at least one thing broken.. 23:04:19 haskell is great until you find yourself reading pages of theory on how to emulate "+=" .. or try to create basic datastructures (name clash) 23:04:45 += in haskell? how does that combine with immutability? 23:04:53 they have lenses to emulate it 23:04:57 in monads 23:05:00 STRef/IORef. 23:05:20 -!- replore_ [~replore@FLH1Ahd118.kng.mesh.ad.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:05:21 no not in IO.. they can make a monadic block which emualtes mutation 23:05:44 ah STRef.. state monad ? 23:05:45 State? 23:05:56 stassats: they have to mutate _something_ even if they only increment the entropy in the universe :) 23:06:07 n00b6502, STRef is an actual mutable reference, same as IORef. 23:06:14 ah ok. 23:06:38 it's purely functional because of type system shenanigans. 23:06:44 they have an emulation of += and so on in immutable-land,with state-monad .. using template-haskell to generate all the operators. 23:06:51 pavelpenev: well, it appeared to me it's about reducing side-effects, so while += may have a use, it's driven to a minimum 23:06:55 pages of theory to generate a couple of instructions 23:07:00 stardiviner [~stardivin@122.236.249.62] has joined #lisp 23:07:24 lenses are indeed in a pretty bad state right now, there are 90 implementations of them. 23:07:49 i tried learning haskell once, the tutorial started by writing a proof that there are infinitely many primes by induction. A year later, that proof helped me pass basic number theory. :) 23:07:50 anyway, it's off topic. 23:07:55 i think i would simply have "procedures" (mutate,state) and "functions" (immutable inputs, returns new values)... 23:08:19 n00b6502, effect typing? 23:08:41 you annotate a function with read/write/IO/exceptions/pure. 23:08:47 so you also know what it does. 23:08:50 (not in haskell) 23:08:52 really , just "procedures" and "functoins" as seperate things, very simple. maybe too simple.. what do i know. 23:09:16 oh ok annotating the function with read/write/IO etc 23:09:20 that would do 23:09:23 n00b6502: procedures compute functions. function is just a mapping from one set to another. 23:09:29 well, a function can use mutable state and be pure: 23:09:48 n00b6502: pascal is for you! 23:09:57 or VB 23:09:58 (lambda (x) (setq x (+ x 1)) x) is pure. 23:10:24 superflit_ [~superflit@209-180-252-83.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 23:10:43 replore_ [~replore@FLH1Ahd118.kng.mesh.ad.jp] has joined #lisp 23:10:43 the set is in an argument ok 23:11:07 its only modifying a local 23:11:10 if the mutation doesn't escape the procedure it's always pure. 23:11:31 if it always produces the same output for the same input, its pure. 23:11:57 pavelpenev, you can't prove in general whether a procedure is pure or not. 23:11:58 well there you could look at it as redefining the symbol 23:12:01 but by that definition, every function is pure, if you count the global state as its input :) 23:12:06 -!- superflit [~superflit@63-228-84-30.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 23:12:06 -!- superflit_ is now known as superflit 23:12:18 pavelpenev: (lambda () (random 1))? 23:12:20 pavelpenev, which is what IO in Haskell does. 23:12:37 conceptually, at least. 23:12:42 but haskell needs all the malarchy for monads 23:12:46 to do basic things 23:12:58 it doesn't, but it's off topic here. 23:13:12 n00b6502: actully if you accept the dogma of FP, side effects and IO are not basic things. 23:14:46 the lambda example above could be seen as recycling a symbol. nothing is modified 23:15:33 (lambda (x) (let (x' (+ x 1)) x') 23:15:59 you can elimintae the x' x'' x''' with monad malarchy.. or by allowing the user to re-use the symbol 'x' :) 23:16:30 that's not the same, I can still access x. 23:16:53 but its just x'. you could write a converter. infact thats how llvm works isn't it? 23:17:01 n00b6502: ITYM: (lambda (x) (let ((x (+ x 1))) x)) 23:17:08 x is no longer available after the setq. its now x'. 23:17:09 n00b6502, SSA? 23:17:12 yes 23:17:22 llvm relies on imperative code being turned into SSa 23:18:00 to perform instruction scheduling/register allocation 23:18:35 also other optimizations like constant folding and similar. 23:20:20 so the key thing as was said, "if the mutation doesn't escape" ... if the mutation doesn't escape- it isn't really mutation. its just shorthand 23:21:49 well, not always. 23:21:50 lambda (x) (use x for somthing) (setq x=x+1) (return x) ... could still put x=x+1 i a different register 23:22:01 you can optimize away the state passing if you can prove that it doesn't escape. 23:22:34 i would say the example x=x+1; return x; is still a pure function 23:22:35 n00b6502, that would be conflating the implementation with the semantics. 23:23:00 i reference the implementation details to explain what I mean by "recycling the symbol" 23:23:06 nothing about that function is impure 23:23:10 -!- francogrex [~francogre@109.130.184.247] has quit [] 23:23:19 indeed it's not, that's my point. 23:23:21 its a pure calculation just written with shorthand 23:23:37 ok good perhaps we agree 23:23:44 I think we do. 23:24:03 you're saying that pure computation expressed as mutation can be expressed in a pure way. 23:24:16 I'm saying that pure computation expressed purely can be expressed as mutation. 23:24:34 (and can still be recognized easily as such by the compiler) 23:25:02 function g(in) { x = f1(in); x=f2(x); x=f3(x); return x; } <--- if f1,f2,f3 are pure, g is pure ... the symbol 'x' is just a placeholder showing dataflow 23:25:46 if x is local of course 23:26:14 -!- replore_ [~replore@FLH1Ahd118.kng.mesh.ad.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:26:16 i certainly think its nice to be able to mark functions as being pure 23:26:22 or vica versa 23:27:42 you should look up effect typing, then. 23:28:02 too bad no (non-toy) language implements it. 23:28:13 ah i was about to ask "does anything use it.." 23:28:40 it's still pretty experimental. 23:28:58 kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-74-244.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 23:29:28 kind of like region typing to do escape analysis in the type system. 23:31:07 -!- iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 23:31:20 zort-: you may need to write (macrolet ((while (c &body b) `(do () ((not ,c)) ,@b))) (macrolet ((bar (&rest args) `(progn ,@(let ((r '())) (while args (push (pop args r))) r)))) (bar 1 2 3))) ; but that's the only case when a macrolet* would have been useful. 23:35:29 perhaps an IDE could look at the callgraph and colour code by side-effect 23:35:57 although that wont stop people calling the wrong thing at the wrong time, it would show you at least 23:37:20 is there a destructuring bind like macro that can have more than one definition? 23:37:50 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-87-79-194-178.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:38:03 mr20_: http://common-lisp.net/project/metabang-bind/ 23:38:05 mr20_: like for pattern matching? 23:38:12 you mean like (???? ((x1 y1 z1) point1 ((x2 y2 z2) point 2)) ? 23:38:14 mathrick_ [~mathrick@94.144.63.84] has joined #lisp 23:38:19 Yes Xach 23:38:32 n00b6502: yes 23:38:36 i want it too :) 23:38:43 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@217.17.38.43] has quit [Quit: dobranoc] 23:40:00 Might be a good practice writing one, though Metabang bind above does look interesting 23:40:08 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:40:36 can you map a macro.. (macromap destructuring-bind '(((x1 y1 z1) point1) (((x2 y2 z2) point2) 23:41:01 Isn't that funny: http://simonask.tumblr.com/post/30645840195/cache-lines-are-the-new-registers I've got the impression most CL compilers already do more than half of all that. 23:41:17 i like how bind replaces let, destructuring bind, mvb 23:41:19 n00b6502: no. 23:41:59 -!- antonv [5d7d31f9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.49.249] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 23:42:38 re-ordering data for cacheline efficiency is well known to c/c++ gamedeveloppers 23:43:22 mr20_: you know who else had just a single party? hitler, that's who! 23:43:33 -!- scottj [~scott@206.212.250.58] has left #lisp 23:43:38 if i was to write destructuring-binds macro should i implement it as nestet destructuring-bind? 23:43:45 nested 23:45:45 the bit about "yield" is interesting, that was one interesting thing about the ps3, you explicitely stated the granuarlity of 'cache'use in how you break up tasks 23:45:50 n00b6502: it's nice to be able to use closures some times. but the problem compared to passing the data structures, is that closures are less "typed" than data structures. If I give you a function (lambda (index)), is it a list, a hash-table, a vector? Something else? Often you want to program with types. (or classes, eg. to dispatch on them with defmethod, etc). 23:46:37 perhaps stepping out of C++ i'm expecting other languages have super-compilers that infer all the types for you 23:47:26 type-tracking i think its called... infer the types down the callgraph and generate versoins of the functions appropriately to get the same speed from "type-less" code as "typed" 23:47:44 -!- logger__ [~logger@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:48:50 c++ can kind of do it with inlining,templates,auto locally but seems hard to infer sometimes .. at least it tells you at compile time if it can or not 23:49:15 n00b6502: nobody prevents you to write a defonce macro. 23:49:34 -!- Sorella [~quildreen@oftn/member/Sorella] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:49:49 n00b6502: that's why we don't use clojure: all it has, we can write it without waiting on Ricky to decide whether it's good for us or not: we're grown up men, we decide for ourselves! 23:49:55 -!- gffa [~unknown@unaffiliated/gffa] has quit [Quit: sleep] 23:51:12 but clojure has macros too. What is stopping you from writing anything you can with CL macros in clojure 23:51:42 what urges you? 23:52:34 mr20_: you can greenspun your way to CL in any language. 23:53:14 hmmm. a read-only view of an object passed into users of the object that is an acessor lambda function. 23:53:41 pavelpenev: no, it was Perlis! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syntactic_sugar#Criticism 23:53:46 in C/C++ i would usually have most 'objects' refered to with const pointers with the side-effects limited to one thing 23:53:58 so that might actually suit me 23:55:24 n00b6502: I guess you could write a CL implementation that would keep enough bookkeeping information about closure to let you use them easily. But write: (defparameter *f* (let ((x 1)) (lambda () (incf x)))) (loop repeat (random 10) do (funcall *f*)) *f* and have fun trying to know what the next result of *f* will be. 23:55:30 (defmacro obj-read-accessor (obj) (lambda (slot) (slot-value obj slot)) ... 23:56:35 i enjoy using 'const ptrs' in c++ to clarify what is modified 23:57:21 i would go crazy without that 23:57:56 n00b6502: there are no standard introspection features for closures. 23:59:07 what is it with C++ coders that make them want to discuss C++ concepts at lengths in #lisp? 23:59:32 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:59:33 its all programming in the end. Surely "how do I do X in languge Y" is not off topic in language Y 23:59:38 -!- paul0 [~paul0@177.16.148.140] has quit [Quit: paul0]