00:00:15 lcc [~lcc@unaffiliated/lcc] has joined #lisp 00:00:56 -!- kanru [~kanru@kanru.info] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:03:26 kanru [~kanru@189.120.104.191] has joined #lisp 00:03:45 out of curiosity, are there any papers/whatever on make-method-lambda besides pascal costanza's? the more I deal with it the more warts I run into. 00:04:38 -!- kanru [~kanru@189.120.104.191] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:04:53 Bike: AMOP. 00:05:23 No more? AMOP doesn't even go into it, it just uses that environments stuff before the pseudo-spec... 00:06:00 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@217.17.38.43] has quit [Quit: good night] 00:06:55 Nisstyre_ [~yours@c-208-90-102-250.netflash.net] has joined #lisp 00:09:43 pkhuong, looks cool! 00:10:18 why "tabasco" ? 00:10:58 pkhuong: Where's the associated blog post? The link is just http://www.pvk.ca/Blog/... 00:12:48 abeaumont [~Alfredo@226.Red-79-155-170.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 00:14:37 nydel [~nydel@ip72-197-235-21.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 00:15:29 -!- Vivitron` [~Vivitron`@pool-98-110-213-33.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:15:44 -!- abeaumont [~Alfredo@226.Red-79-155-170.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 00:15:44 what's the easiest way to play a sound with (common) lisp? i just want to give a function something like (note volume) & have it do a beep. 00:15:49 could someone point me at something? 00:16:20 (note length-in-ms volume) more like. 00:16:33 abeaumont [~Alfredo@226.Red-79-155-170.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 00:17:24 nydel: http://www.cliki.net/audio 00:18:03 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:18:28 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 00:19:12 thanks Bike: do you know which path is best for what i'm describing? 00:20:04 What are you using it for? 00:24:32 Fare: tabasco sort/sauce ;) blame stassats 00:24:44 zort-: I'm still reviewing it. 00:33:26 -!- dan_dan__ is now known as dan 00:34:01 nydel: I've used napa-fft and sox for that. 00:37:10 pkhuong: thanks, were you able to get something like a form "(play-midi-note '(C4 2500 100))" that plays C in octave 4 for 2500ms at an arbitrary volume of 100? 00:37:58 pkhuong: my professor, david cope @ ucsc, had this midi.lisp he had written himself which did that, i have no idea how it was done & until i can get a copy of that file i'm a bit stuck. 00:38:41 yes. andy hefner has written a couple blog posts on related topics. http://ahefner.livejournal.com/19604.html for example. 00:38:44 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-66-73-241.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 00:40:13 pkhuong: wow, talk about hitting the nail on the head. thanks! 00:41:27 leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has joined #lisp 00:42:20 -!- antonv [5d7d31f9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.49.249] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 00:42:23 jjkola_ [~androirc@212-226-66-136-nat.elisa-mobile.fi] has joined #lisp 00:43:34 if you want to emit files, napa-fft3's readme has a couple basic utility functions. 00:43:48 -!- jjkola [~androirc@212-226-65-1-nat.elisa-mobile.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:45:06 mathrick_ [~mathrick@94.144.63.84] has joined #lisp 00:45:10 wonderful, thanks again, this is great. 00:45:57 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:50:01 coldnew [~user@ymu041-045.ym.edu.tw] has joined #lisp 00:51:02 -!- bigmeow [~mirror@184.82.217.174] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8] 00:52:57 if you want to emit NES roms, andy's blog has more nifty stuff ;) 00:55:35 PuercoPop420 [~PuercoPop@190.41.173.174] has joined #lisp 00:56:05 -!- coldnew [~user@ymu041-045.ym.edu.tw] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:57:07 -!- PuercoPop [~PuercoPop@190.41.173.174] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 00:58:48 -!- stardiviner [~stardivin@122.236.244.163] has quit [Quit: my website: http://stardiviner.dyndns-blog.com/] 00:59:45 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:04:39 jeti [~user@p54A1E172.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 01:08:46 -!- qptain_Nemo [~qN@81-235-52-30-no79.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:10:08 qptain_Nemo [~qN@81-235-52-30-no79.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 01:11:14 pirateking-_- [~piratekin@c-67-169-182-169.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:12:53 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.226] has joined #lisp 01:14:52 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@1.153.59.217] has quit [Quit: network connectivity] 01:17:10 -!- robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:17:56 -!- abeaumont [~Alfredo@226.Red-79-155-170.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:18:04 abeaumont_ [~Alfredo@226.Red-79-155-170.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 01:18:13 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:18:36 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 01:25:14 -!- jeti [~user@p54A1E172.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #lisp 01:25:22 -!- abeaumont_ [~Alfredo@226.Red-79-155-170.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:26:27 BountyX [~andrew@75-149-35-74-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 01:27:54 -!- ArmyOfBruce [~bmitchene@waywardmonkeys.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 01:28:24 ArmyOfBruce [~bmitchene@waywardmonkeys.com] has joined #lisp 01:29:36 agumonkey [~agu@249.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 01:30:06 -!- Codynyx_ [~cody@c-75-72-25-106.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:33:46 -!- holycow [~start@pdpc/supporter/bronze/holycow] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 01:35:45 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 01:38:00 Codynyx [~cody@c-75-72-25-106.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:45:21 abeaumont_ [~Alfredo@226.Red-79-155-170.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 01:47:33 mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-66-73-241.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:48:55 teggi [~teggi@113.172.54.215] has joined #lisp 01:49:14 -!- Obfuscate [~keii@unaffiliated/obfuscate] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8] 01:49:54 -!- zeissoctopus [~zeissocto@183178133120.ctinets.com] has quit [Quit: ] 01:56:17 DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@1.153.59.217] has joined #lisp 01:56:27 -!- steffi_s [~marioooh@host-216-220-114-135.dsl.bway.net] has quit [Quit: zzzz] 02:00:38 stardiviner [~stardivin@218.74.180.164] has joined #lisp 02:01:26 insomniaSalt [~user@unaffiliated/iammilan] has joined #lisp 02:01:40 edgar-rft [~GOD@HSI-KBW-078-043-123-191.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 02:02:16 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:02:41 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 02:05:37 -!- abeaumont_ [~Alfredo@226.Red-79-155-170.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:12:48 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.2.1] 02:13:59 Vivitron` [~Vivitron`@pool-98-110-213-33.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:15:49 Obfuscate [~keii@unaffiliated/obfuscate] has joined #lisp 02:22:35 asvil [~asvil@178.120.154.252] has joined #lisp 02:26:19 abeaumont_ [~Alfredo@226.Red-79-155-170.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 02:29:27 pkhuong: i got that file i mentioned, you might be interested to take a look: http://isismelting.com/files/commonlisp/mgc.lisp 02:29:45 it's beautiful code 02:30:52 doesn't cope have his code up somewhere? I swear I've read it before. 02:31:17 midi, always a fun format to play with 02:32:50 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:34:13 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@31.29.3.186] has joined #lisp 02:34:14 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@31.29.3.186] has quit [Changing host] 02:34:14 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 02:34:42 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.226] has quit [*.net *.split] 02:34:42 -!- Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has quit [*.net *.split] 02:34:42 -!- am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has quit [*.net *.split] 02:34:42 -!- superflit [~superflit@67-41-145-116.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 02:34:42 -!- CrazyEddy [~Botrydium@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [*.net *.split] 02:34:42 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-109-67-190-224.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 02:34:42 -!- BlastHardcheese [chris@pdpc/supporter/active/blasthardcheese] has quit [*.net *.split] 02:34:42 -!- jmcphers [~jmcphers@61.14.141.35] has quit [*.net *.split] 02:34:42 -!- __class__ [~class@99-105-56-217.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 02:35:01 Bike: he has a lot of stuff from his "EMI" experiments in musical intelligence up. that's the bit in which he uses recombination to compose new pieces in the style of various classical composers. 02:35:16 right. 02:35:27 I just can't shake the feeling I saw the MIDI stuff before. oh well. 02:35:51 -!- BountyX [~andrew@75-149-35-74-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 02:35:52 Quadrescence: there are deftransforms now ;) 02:36:11 deftransform tabasco-sort 02:36:22 -!- stardiviner [~stardivin@218.74.180.164] has quit [Quit: my website: http://stardiviner.dyndns-blog.com/] 02:36:31 no, deftransform cl:sort! 02:37:18 stardiviner [~stardivin@218.74.180.164] has joined #lisp 02:37:37 pkhuong, which cases do you transform? 02:38:10 vectors of known short length. 02:38:12 pkhuong: Can you clarify in what way deftransform is different from define-compiler-macro? What is it that the former does that the latter does not? 02:38:49 loke_erc: transforms can act on type information. 02:38:50 deftransform has access to more information 02:39:35 Ah. So its purpose is essentially the same, but you simply have access to more of the compiler internals? 02:40:08 -!- PuercoPop420 is now known as PuercoPop 02:40:28 BountyX [~andrew@76.14.65.229] has joined #lisp 02:40:52 yes 02:40:56 What makes (decf (getf (get-some-list-from-somewhere) :some-property)) fail and putting the list in a temp variable succeed? Is there something other than a temp variable that can make this work? 02:40:57 loke_erc: both perform source-to-source transformations. 02:41:39 Modius: what happens to (setf getf) if the property doesn't exist? 02:42:15 quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 02:42:35 I *think* I get it - with the temp variable I'm taking responsibility of what may potentially be a new list 02:42:37 pkhuong: thank you. It's more clear now. 02:42:48 isn't it the lack of a setf method for get-some-list? 02:42:57 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 02:43:06 harish [harish@nat/redhat/session] has joined #lisp 02:47:20 -!- abeaumont_ [~Alfredo@226.Red-79-155-170.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 02:48:52 -!- askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.14.79] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8] 02:52:20 abeaumont_ [~Alfredo@226.Red-79-155-170.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 02:53:15 -!- loke_erc [~user@c-1756e555.012-14-67626717.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:59:32 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:01:37 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 03:02:00 -!- qptain_Nemo [~qN@81-235-52-30-no79.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:02:19 -!- abeaumont_ [~Alfredo@226.Red-79-155-170.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:02:26 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:02:48 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 03:03:14 -!- benny [~user@i577A77E4.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:03:51 VieiraN [~VieiraN@187.10.244.166] has joined #lisp 03:05:56 -!- agumonkey [~agu@249.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 03:06:28 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 03:09:15 abeaumont_ [~Alfredo@226.Red-79-155-170.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 03:09:55 -!- Sorella [~quildreen@oftn/member/Sorella] has quit [Quit: (quit :reason 'sleep)] 03:16:00 leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has joined #lisp 03:16:25 Yuuhi`` [benni@p5483A994.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 03:17:21 -!- pavelpenev [~quassel@85-130-11-8.2073813645.shumen.cablebg.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:17:51 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [] 03:18:05 mucker [~mucker@183.83.240.198] has joined #lisp 03:18:10 -!- Yuuhi` [benni@p5483B55E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 03:21:49 pavelpenev [~quassel@85-130-11-8.2073813645.shumen.cablebg.net] has joined #lisp 03:22:14 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 03:22:37 -!- abeaumont_ [~Alfredo@226.Red-79-155-170.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:23:15 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:24:25 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:24:30 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 03:27:56 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:28:15 loke_erc [~user@c-1756e555.012-14-67626717.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 03:29:50 -!- didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:32:56 -!- mucker [~mucker@183.83.240.198] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:33:19 -!- leo2007 [~leo@119.255.41.67] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.2.1] 03:39:33 -!- ikariW [~ikari@2001:1938:2e4:0:20d:93ff:fe78:f598] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:50:10 if you were to implement vector maths in lisp as lists '(x y z) .. would compilers be able to optimize this into short arrays, no links behind the scenes 03:50:38 what's wrong with just using arrays? 03:51:17 same question - will a compiler be able to figure out its a fixed size array like c++ std::array 03:51:24 or maybe such an array exists 03:51:36 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-66-73-241.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 03:51:43 n00b6502: for the first question, no SSC like that exist. SBCL is already slow enough, why add strong ai to it? 03:51:43 they do that. 03:51:59 and I think the list thing is like cdr coding? 03:52:09 Bike: no cdr coding in SBCL, afaik 03:52:14 -!- quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:52:19 i've heard of "deforestatoin" in haskel.. 03:52:27 ok arrays are probably the way to go 03:52:39 p_l: yeah, I don't think anyone does cdr coding any more. 03:53:06 Bike: it wasn't very effective on lispm, it's worse than normal on modern cpus 03:53:25 yeah. 03:54:12 -!- asvil [~asvil@178.120.154.252] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 03:55:25 clisp in ubuntu... (let a (make-array 3 0.0 0.0 0.0)) 03:56:44 ah. (let a #(x y z)) works ? 03:56:51 #(...) makes an array ? 03:57:00 n00b6502: its a literal vector 03:57:17 oh variable size 03:57:42 (let a (make-array 2 :initial-contents '(x y z))) 03:58:01 also your let is malformed. http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/s_let_l.htm 03:58:18 n00b6502: (vector 1 2 3) 03:58:37 'vector' makes me think variable size 03:58:44 -!- Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 03:59:45 -!- sellout42 [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:00:40 abeaumont_ [~Alfredo@226.Red-79-155-170.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 04:01:05 p_l: yeah, I don't think anyone does cdr coding any more. 04:01:08 oops 04:01:52 (setq a (make-array 3 :initial-contents '(0.0 1.0 0.0))) 04:02:36 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:02:45 seems to work. 04:02:58 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 04:03:02 surprised 'print' doesn't seem to be "n-ary" 04:04:01 Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has joined #lisp 04:07:59 sykopomp [~sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 04:09:40 are you reading a book or just flailing around? 04:09:50 google+repl 04:10:27 http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ 04:12:19 -!- abeaumont_ [~Alfredo@226.Red-79-155-170.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:13:14 quazimodo [~quazimodo@c122-106-147-75.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 04:14:32 Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has joined #lisp 04:14:56 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 04:16:29 -!- jjkola_ [~androirc@212-226-66-136-nat.elisa-mobile.fi] has quit [Quit: quit] 04:18:55 -!- centipedefarmer [~centipede@75-170-158-31.desm.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 04:22:08 abeaumont_ [~Alfredo@226.Red-79-155-170.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 04:22:19 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@1.153.59.217] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:25:19 -!- Jubb [~ghost@pool-108-28-0-134.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:29:52 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [] 04:31:44 Fullmoon [~Fullmoon@h081217030118.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 04:36:34 abeaumont__ [~Alfredo@226.Red-79-155-170.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 04:38:34 -!- abeaumont_ [~Alfredo@226.Red-79-155-170.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:41:16 DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@1.132.53.11] has joined #lisp 04:41:29 -!- sambio [~cc@190.57.227.107] has quit [] 04:43:01 hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@94.137.54.216] has joined #lisp 04:44:21 -!- pavelpenev [~quassel@85-130-11-8.2073813645.shumen.cablebg.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 04:45:29 ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has joined #lisp 04:49:46 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@1.132.53.11] has quit [Quit: network connectivity] 04:49:46 -!- BountyX [~andrew@76.14.65.229] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:51:42 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:55:34 -!- VieiraN [~VieiraN@187.10.244.166] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:59:12 benny [~user@i577A16A3.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 04:59:47 -!- loke_erc [~user@c-1756e555.012-14-67626717.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:02:01 -!- ISF [~ivan@189.61.221.122] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:02:46 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:03:00 what lisp package managers are out there? quicklisp I already found 05:03:10 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 05:03:13 reactormonk: there is quicklisp and quicklisp 05:03:24 reactormonk: you don't want to try anything else, seriously 05:03:34 oke 05:03:51 what about test frameworks? stefil? the one from the book? 05:04:18 what about asdf? 05:04:23 i'm using unit-test, but it is a bit pathetic. 5am is said to be good. 05:04:50 what do you mean by "what about asdf?" 05:05:14 reactormonk: xcvb and asdf are about what there is, unless you want to use thirty year old systems 05:05:30 fantazo [~fantazo@91-119-125-214.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 05:06:40 oh 05:07:39 centipedefarmer [~centipede@75-170-158-31.desm.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 05:09:47 H4ns: http://common-lisp.net/project/stefil/demo.html similar to 5am? 05:12:06 BountyX [~andrew@76.14.65.229] has joined #lisp 05:14:18 -!- centipedefarmer [~centipede@75-170-158-31.desm.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 05:14:20 -!- abeaumont__ [~Alfredo@226.Red-79-155-170.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:14:45 abeaumont__ [~Alfredo@226.Red-79-155-170.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 05:20:12 kanru [~kanru@189.120.164.64] has joined #lisp 05:20:13 -!- abeaumont__ [~Alfredo@226.Red-79-155-170.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:20:43 reactormonk: as i said, i'm using unit-test so i cannot help 05:20:54 -!- dreish [~dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [Quit: dreish] 05:21:07 H4ns: got me an example for that one? 05:21:23 reactormonk: i generally avoid dwim.hu projects because of their attitude towards documentation 05:22:33 DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@1.132.53.11] has joined #lisp 05:22:57 H4ns: huh? 05:23:13 reactormonk: they don't have any and cultivate that as a virtue 05:23:31 a... virtue? 05:23:57 rtfc? 05:23:59 Bike: "documentation is always outdated anyway. read the source and the tests." 05:24:11 :/ 05:24:36 -!- macrobat [~fuzzyglee@h-17-133.a328.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8] 05:24:38 that's why :) 05:25:18 it's the "def" thing that gets to me 05:25:36 and their site is broken in chromium 05:25:58 Bike: ieh 05:27:15 steffi_s [~marioooh@184.152.73.25] has joined #lisp 05:28:37 -!- Nisstyre_ [~yours@c-208-90-102-250.netflash.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:29:11 ... and in firefox too. WTF? 05:29:35 reactormonk: it is quite possible to just ignore dwim.hu 05:30:44 H4ns: decided to do exactly that 05:31:59 abeaumont__ [~Alfredo@226.Red-79-155-170.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 05:32:06 -!- quazimodo [~quazimodo@c122-106-147-75.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:36:15 how do I look up documentation? slime + emacs or is there a webbased documentation browser? 05:36:56 you might want gigamonkey's manifest project, if you don't mean CL's 05:40:22 mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has joined #lisp 05:40:22 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has quit [Changing host] 05:40:22 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 05:41:16 -!- sepuku [~spk@dsl-aav0mz.dyn.edudsl.gr] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:42:28 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 05:43:19 -!- jao` [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:43:22 sepuku [~spk@dsl-aav0p3.dyn.edudsl.gr] has joined 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[~marioooh@184.152.73.25] has quit [Quit: zzzz] 06:30:25 On dwim.hu: I have never seen a more sluggish 'hide paragraph' feature. 06:35:19 -!- Amadiro [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp0217.bb.online.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:36:31 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 06:38:39 mcsontos [mcsontos@nat/redhat/session] has joined #lisp 06:39:42 hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has joined #lisp 06:39:42 -!- hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has quit [Changing host] 06:39:42 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 06:40:36 nkkarthik [~nkkarthik@smtpbt.pramati.com] has joined #lisp 06:41:33 moog_ [~wircer@173-99-66-42.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 06:42:57 Qinix [~qinix@124.126.227.72] has joined #lisp 06:43:18 quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 06:44:12 -!- moog_ [~wircer@173-99-66-42.pools.spcsdns.net] has left #lisp 06:44:23 jewel [~jewel@196-210-160-143.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 06:44:53 BlastHardcheese [chris@pool-108-38-205-87.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 06:44:53 superflit [~superflit@67-41-145-116.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 06:44:53 CrazyEddy [~Botrydium@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 06:44:53 cmm [~cmm@bzq-109-67-190-224.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 06:44:53 jmcphers [~jmcphers@61.14.141.35] has joined #lisp 06:44:53 __class__ [~class@99-105-56-217.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:44:53 didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has joined #lisp 06:45:00 -!- BlastHardcheese [chris@pool-108-38-205-87.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 06:45:10 BlastHardcheese [chris@pdpc/supporter/active/blasthardcheese] has joined #lisp 06:45:14 -!- harish [harish@nat/redhat/session] has quit [Changing host] 06:45:14 harish [harish@nat/redhat/x-ckrzctnfneiaaixh] has joined #lisp 06:45:15 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Changing host] 06:45:15 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 06:45:16 -!- mcsontos [mcsontos@nat/redhat/session] has quit [Changing host] 06:45:16 mcsontos [mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-geupngfjgxsnnrzr] has joined #lisp 06:45:57 -!- kuzary [~who@gateway/tor-sasl/kuzary] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:45:58 -!- sawjig [~sawjig@gateway/tor-sasl/sawjig] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:46:14 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@1.132.53.11] has quit [Quit: Bye] 06:47:27 What is the name of `#+'? 06:47:37 what? 06:47:41 sawjig [~sawjig@gateway/tor-sasl/sawjig] has joined #lisp 06:48:13 didi: it is a reader conditional 06:48:16 Bike: The thing you use to comment stuff that you don't want your implementation to see. 06:48:23 H4ns: Thanks. 06:48:26 kuzary [~who@gateway/tor-sasl/kuzary] has joined #lisp 06:48:28 oh, oops. 06:48:40 -!- abeaumont__ is now known as abeaumont 06:51:35 I've heard the act of using it for comments be called "featuring out" 06:52:22 pskosinski [~pk@czu186.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 06:53:17 -!- papajustify [~slugged@c-98-246-47-184.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: 'bye.] 06:53:28 It is impossible to find it in hyperspec. :^( 06:53:46 look up "standard macro characters" 06:53:46 Does someone have a link? 06:53:53 Bike: Thanks. 06:54:17 or in slime, hyperspec-lookup-reader-macro 06:54:31 Hmm. l1sp.org/cl/#+ doesn't work?... 06:54:33 angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has joined #lisp 06:54:53 sykopomp: Not here. :^( 06:55:00 actually that sort of makes sense 06:55:02 well URLs aren't allowed to have sharps in them. 06:55:09 # doesn't get sent to the browser, right. 06:55:18 eni [~eni@31.171.153.34] has joined #lisp 06:55:20 err, sent to the server* 06:55:29 Aaah... You gotta <3 Emacs and Slime. 06:55:37 Bike: URLs can have #, they're just not considered part of the path, and not sent to the server. 06:55:43 right, that. 06:55:46 -!- tensorpudding_ [~michael@99.160.220.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:00:40 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-210-160-143.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:02:05 -!- eni [~eni@31.171.153.34] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:02:51 eni [~eni@31.171.153.34] has joined #lisp 07:03:06 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:03:28 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 07:04:32 There is some logic to the number of ;s in a comment, isn't it? 07:05:30 didi: yes 07:05:37 -!- stardiviner [~stardivin@218.74.180.164] has quit [Quit: my website: http://stardiviner.dyndns-blog.com/] 07:05:50 sykopomp: Where can I read more about it? 07:05:54 didi: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/02_ddbe.htm 07:06:02 Thanks. 07:06:15 go up a page or two to read the actual details 07:06:20 but that's pretty self-explanatory, I think. 07:09:37 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-olycvotmuvlwjsgq] has joined #lisp 07:11:48 iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has joined #lisp 07:14:02 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:15:16 punee [~punee@213-245-106-105.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 07:18:39 ivan-kanis [~user@nantes.visionobjects.com] has joined #lisp 07:19:16 zmyrgel [~user@a91-153-146-121.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 07:19:23 mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.32.192] has joined #lisp 07:20:03 gekko_ [~jjk@78.157.103.6] has joined #lisp 07:22:35 -!- bjorkintosh [~bjork@ip68-13-229-200.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:28:12 varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 07:29:27 ferada [~ferada@dslb-188-097-128-127.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 07:32:09 (defmacro bind (f &rest r) (lambda (&rest x) (apply f (append r x)))) 07:32:16 (defmacro mad (&rest r) (reduce '+ (mapcar (bind 'reduce '*) r ))) 07:32:40 (mad (2 2) (10 10)) = 104 ... 07:32:46 is there a more elegant way of writing that 07:33:12 (sorry its defun bind) 07:33:36 you could use alexandria:curry instead of bind 07:34:46 here's mine: (reduce #'+ '((2 2) (10 10)) :key (alexandria:curry #'apply #'*)) 07:36:22 ah right you can just apply the operator to the lists in the first place 07:38:46 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 07:38:52 :key skips supplyig the initial zero perhaps 07:39:29 -!- harish [harish@nat/redhat/x-ckrzctnfneiaaixh] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:39:32 (oh sorry confusing with my haskell version..) 07:40:27 (i should qualify, the goal is the 'mad' macro, not the calclation in on instance) 07:40:31 the initial value there should be (funcall #'+) which is of course zero. 07:40:52 (*) is 1 ? 07:40:59 Yes. 07:41:10 ok the joy of n-ary functions 07:42:03 i'm not sure i gain much by just not writing (+ (* ..) (* ..)..) but i'm trying to learn how to write lisp macros.. 07:42:52 n00b6502, I would suggest learning Lisp without macros if you haven't yet. 07:42:55 I don't think this is a good place for a macro. 07:43:13 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-109-22.lns20.bne4.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:43:22 macros are the only reason for me to learn lisp 07:44:10 n00b6502: after learning some more lisp you'll see that macros are nice, but that there are limits to their applicability, too 07:44:28 Since macros are programs to create Lisp code, it seems like a good idea to learn what's possible to create. 07:44:32 i like the idea of functional programming ;i'm a big fan of macros & templates in c/c++; ==> lisp macros seemed interesting.. 07:45:01 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-178-129.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:45:06 Frankly, C macros are bad. 07:45:27 sure, but in C and even c++ they are useful 07:45:40 there's still things #defines can do that templates cant 07:45:41 They seem useful, but they are nto. 07:45:44 not* 07:46:16 there might be other language constructs that can do the same jobs better 07:46:27 in different languages... but not in C++ 07:47:24 in particular i like the idea of being able to describe schemas then emit code & data simultaneously ; done with reflection elsewhere i think; in C/C++ you can hack it with x-macros 07:47:25 jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-180-8.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 07:47:37 from what i can gather lisp is where you can do it more 'properly' 07:48:04 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-178-129.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 07:49:03 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu2.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 07:50:37 -!- eni [~eni@31.171.153.34] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:52:48 bjorkintosh [~bjork@ip68-13-229-200.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 07:54:32 robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:54:35 bitonic [~user@027cae25.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 07:56:05 harish [harish@nat/redhat/x-dbchbrgjjsghunuv] has joined #lisp 07:57:14 (defun reduce2 (f-outer f-inner ls) (reduce f-outer (mapcar (bind 'reduce f-inner) ls))) 07:57:14 (defmacro mad ls (reduce2d '+ '* ls)) 07:58:15 what's the point of making this a macro? you're just making it harder to use it as a function. 07:58:33 -!- DDR [~chatzilla@d66-183-118-10.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Quit: for the love of god this is not safe for work] 07:59:02 i think i'd want both a macro and function.. the macro is what sprung to mind first for simply making it easier to write multiply-add expressions 07:59:50 (set pos(mad(pos)(vel t)(acc (* t t 0.5))) that sort of thing 07:59:55 (defmacro mad-macro (ls) `(reduce2d '+ '* ,ls)) 08:00:07 (set pos(mad(pos)(vel t)(acc t t 0.5)) that sort of thing 08:00:17 (sorry for the repeated posts) 08:01:47 -!- iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 08:02:37 anyway the mapcar is still unnecessary. (reduce f-outer ls :key (bind #'reduce f-inner)) would work, yeah? 08:03:16 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:03:42 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 08:04:06 ok 08:05:04 let me try 08:07:25 c_arenz [~arenz@HSI-KBW-109-193-252-079.hsi7.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 08:10:33 -!- fold [~fold@71-8-117-85.dhcp.ftwo.tx.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:10:42 stardiviner [~stardivin@218.74.179.87] has joined #lisp 08:12:20 zodiac1111 [~zodiac111@124.90.129.57] has joined #lisp 08:13:15 pavelpenev [~quassel@85-130-11-8.2073813645.shumen.cablebg.net] has joined #lisp 08:16:26 i discovered earlier today that cl-base64 exports some functions that are undefined (such as stream-to-base64-string)... is that common, or should the exports be removed from the defpackage? (in which case, is best practice to contact the author? i'm not sure the project is active). 08:16:37 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 08:18:21 robot-beethoven: attempt to contact author, if that fails, make the change yourself and petition for maintainership 08:18:52 assuming you're quite certain the lib is in error 08:19:03 remmeber, not all exports name functions 08:19:08 remember 08:20:48 xjiujiu [~quassel@218.77.14.202] has joined #lisp 08:21:50 -!- pavelpenev [~quassel@85-130-11-8.2073813645.shumen.cablebg.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:24:19 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu2.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:27:02 hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@94.137.54.216] has joined #lisp 08:28:41 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-178-129.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:29:13 -!- Bike [~Glossina@67-5-245-92.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: sleep] 08:29:39 iocor 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joined #lisp 11:07:29 c_arenz [~arenz@HSI-KBW-109-193-252-079.hsi7.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 11:09:50 -!- lispmeister [~fix@AStDenis-552-1-70-109.w90-43.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 11:09:53 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 11:10:57 lispmeister [~fix@AStDenis-552-1-70-109.w90-43.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 11:15:11 zxcvb0 [~c@ool-18b8ec88.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 11:16:05 ticking [~janpaulbu@87.253.189.132] has joined #lisp 11:16:30 hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@94.137.54.216] has joined #lisp 11:17:15 -!- zxcvb0 [~c@ool-18b8ec88.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Client Quit] 11:17:17 antonv [2e35c344@gateway/web/freenode/ip.46.53.195.68] has joined #lisp 11:21:35 Guthur [~user@host86-160-240-80.range86-160.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 11:22:45 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-178-129.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:23:00 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-178-129.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 11:24:03 agumonkey [~agu@249.217.72.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 11:29:12 insomniaSalt [~user@unaffiliated/iammilan] has joined #lisp 11:35:04 xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.134.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 11:35:42 ignas [~ignas@office.pov.lt] has joined #lisp 11:37:49 -!- Kvaks [~quassel@15.123.34.95.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:39:30 Kvaks [~quassel@15.123.34.95.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 11:44:27 -!- kanru [~kanru@189.120.164.64] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 11:52:15 damg [~dima2001@p5B067A6F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:54:21 -!- hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@94.137.54.216] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:55:00 -!- iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 11:55:56 hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@109.120.40.134] has joined #lisp 11:56:31 how can I use deftyped specializers in a defmethod? e.g. positive-integer which evaluates to (integer 1) 11:56:35 trebor_dki [~user@kvpn.lbf.fraunhofer.de] has joined #lisp 11:57:00 damg: you can't. methods are specialized on classes, not types. 11:57:20 (at least with standard-method-combination) 11:57:28 ah, ok, thank you 11:58:15 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:58:39 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 12:00:31 -!- quazimodo [~quazimodo@c27-253-100-110.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:02:52 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-178-129.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:03:07 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-178-129.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 12:03:44 -!- hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@109.120.40.134] has quit [Quit: hitecnologys] 12:05:33 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-109-22.lns20.bne4.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:05:50 apathor [~apathor@c-24-218-104-106.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:06:47 -!- apathor [~apathor@c-24-218-104-106.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #lisp 12:07:29 -!- add^_ [~add^_@m213-101-201-147.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: add^_] 12:10:29 benkard [~benkard@002608dc9535.dfn.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 12:12:28 damg: but look for a paper named "Filtered dispatch", and another one "Predicate Dispatching in the Common Lisp Object System" 12:13:01 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:13:39 harish [~harish@cm13.zeta234.maxonline.com.sg] has joined #lisp 12:14:21 iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has joined #lisp 12:26:12 mcox [~user@203-206-254-6.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 12:26:41 -!- mcox [~user@203-206-254-6.dyn.iinet.net.au] has left #lisp 12:27:03 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 12:27:32 -!- sepuku [~spk@dsl-aav0p3.dyn.edudsl.gr] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:27:36 sellout42 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#lisp 14:00:06 -!- mario2 [~mario@101.68.89.3] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:01:03 -!- varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:01:17 Hi, I need a small advice, I have a macro I need/want to write which need a non-local transfer and I'm not sure which solution is cleaner: http://paste.lisp.org/display/131236 14:01:42 rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has joined #lisp 14:02:09 lemoinem: i generally avoid return-from unless it is really needed 14:02:39 lemoinem: often, i find that i want to use it in code that is badly structured, which could be true for what you're looking at. but if (return) works, use that. 14:02:42 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-178-129.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 14:03:01 lemoinem: You should be able to impement it with restarts. 14:03:06 clhs with-simple-restart 14:03:06 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_w_smp_.htm 14:03:16 clhs invoke-restart 14:03:16 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_invo_1.htm 14:03:16 H4ns: wouldn't it be in this case? I actually fail to see why handler-bind does not actually do that itself. 14:03:22 jjkola [~androirc@212-226-67-196-nat.elisa-mobile.fi] has joined #lisp 14:03:24 lemoinem: i avoid return-from because it requires me to spell out a name from the context, which makes the code harder to refactor. 14:04:40 lemoinem: handler-bind is needed only if the condition handler wants to look at the dynamic context of the code that caused the error, or if it wants to decide whether to handle the error or not. 14:05:00 Harag [~phil@dsl-243-195-156.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 14:05:13 -!- kanru [~kanru@kanru.info] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:05:30 centipedefarmer [~centipede@75-170-158-31.desm.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 14:05:34 naryl: Thanks, but that's not really what I want to do here, I don't have a specific restart to invoke. It's more like a generic catch-all here, I need to isolate part of the software to keep crash anything else. 14:05:49 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@31.29.3.186] has joined #lisp 14:05:49 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@31.29.3.186] has quit [Changing host] 14:05:49 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 14:06:02 lemoinem: if a return does not work, use tagbody/go. 14:06:14 am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has joined #lisp 14:06:25 lemoinem: Can't you just catch the error with handler-case and return nil from the handler? 14:06:32 lemoinem: or your variant three, actually :) 14:06:40 H4ns: I may need to display a backtrace, which implies having to the dynamic context of the condition 14:06:53 lemoinem: that was for naryl, right? 14:07:07 kanru [~kanru@kanru.info] has joined #lisp 14:07:32 Hmm... both actually, that was primarilly to reply to your "handler-bind is needed only if ..." 14:07:49 lemoinem: but as far as i can see, there is nothing that precludes your vriant 2 from working, or is there? 14:08:05 no, it's really a syntax question. 14:08:09 KingsKnighted [~quassel@c-174-52-149-13.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:08:23 -!- mario2_ [~mario2@110.53.94.90] has quit [Quit: ] 14:08:30 lemoinem: variant 2 is the way to go. 14:09:11 The all three should be equivalent, but I was just wondering which one was cleaner. At the same time, if you have a better solution than block/return, I'd be happy to listen to it. 14:09:15 lemoinem: when i was pointing at the possible problem in my email, i was wondering whether in the other call site (not the one your patch was about), it was the right thing to continue to the end of the handler-bind in the failure case. 14:09:20 -!- ticking [~janpaulbu@87.253.189.132] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 14:09:25 lemoinem: block/return is great 14:10:23 tensorpudding_ [~michael@99.160.220.254] has joined #lisp 14:10:57 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:11:00 Ok, regarding the other site, the process is quite similar, I don't really see any other thing to do. there is no processing outside of the handler-bind anyway. 14:11:03 gko [~user@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 14:12:48 lemoinem: now that i think about it, block nil potentially does not work if the body contains another block nil, right? 14:12:54 attila_lendvai1 [~attila_le@31.29.3.186] has joined #lisp 14:13:22 lemoinem: so that'd be a compelling reason to use a named block (gensym is trt then) 14:13:46 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@212.241.23.105] has joined #lisp 14:13:46 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@212.241.23.105] has quit [Changing host] 14:13:47 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 14:13:55 hum... I'm not sure about it... block scoping is lexical, so it should be fine... 14:13:56 -!- kanru [~kanru@kanru.info] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:14:31 although the extent is dynamic (that's a point that's still confusing me a bit)... 14:14:47 lemoinem: you're right, block scope is lexical. 14:15:03 lemoinem: so block nil should be good. sorry for trying to confuse you :) 14:15:31 H4ns: No problem. :) 14:15:39 Thanks for your help. 14:15:48 dotemacs [u801@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ufilnmvoepnbrflj] has joined #lisp 14:16:03 gilez [~gdmalet@tux.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 14:16:14 btw, any reasons why with-mapped-conditions got a () first argument? Is that a syntax you want me keep using? 14:16:50 mario2 [~mario2@101.68.89.3] has joined #lisp 14:17:11 lemoinem: i do it for regularity and extensibility (all my with- macros have an argument list, and i can add keyword arguments later without changing all call sites) 14:17:19 lemoinem: so yes, please stick to that style if you can. 14:17:37 H4ns: Ok, gonna stick with that. 14:17:40 -!- attila_lendvai1 [~attila_le@31.29.3.186] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:18:03 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:18:12 -!- iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 14:19:23 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@212.241.23.105] has joined #lisp 14:19:23 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@212.241.23.105] has quit [Changing host] 14:19:23 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 14:19:36 -!- Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:20:34 -!- woudshoo [~user@ipleiden.intellimagic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 14:21:30 Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has joined #lisp 14:21:40 -!- flanfl [~flanfl@cpc1-sgyl27-2-0-cust785.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:21:41 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-178-129.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:22:54 superflit_ [~superflit@65-128-38-187.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 14:23:27 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-161-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 14:23:42 iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has joined #lisp 14:24:02 kanru [~kanru@189-69-134-243.dial-up.telesp.net.br] has joined #lisp 14:24:15 -!- superflit [~superflit@65-128-32-142.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:24:16 -!- superflit_ is now known as superflit 14:24:48 Not that it matters, but why does PARSE-INTEGER only accept bases up to 36? Why /not/ support all bases? 14:25:05 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-161-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:25:11 -!- hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 14:25:28 zort-: what character would denote 36? 14:25:35 doy 14:25:47 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-161-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 14:26:17 pkhuong: ø 14:26:34 or ð 14:27:10 You can support up to base 62 with ASCII, can't you? 14:27:37 (by being case-sensitive) 14:27:38 case-sensitivity? Pah. 14:27:39 sykopomp: case-sensitive numbers would be confusing 14:27:40 One could write a similar function that would use pretty much the same algorithm, simply accepting a string (or whatever) as a set of digits 14:28:19 H4ns: case sensitive on a-z 14:28:48 sykopomp: yeah, right. i have never heard of differently cased 0-9, but i'll gladly learn! :) 14:29:00 -!- snearch [~snearch@p5795B13D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 14:30:25 -!- kanru [~kanru@189-69-134-243.dial-up.telesp.net.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:31:08 Is there any facility in Slime for tracing individual methods? 14:31:52 FORMAT and PRINT are pretty good at that. 14:32:08 M-( print is a personal favorite of mine. 14:32:19 (followed by M-r to remove it) 14:32:21 moore33: I don't think so... If you're on linux/sbcl, you could try to get the underlying method function and use non-encapsulating trace. 14:33:05 attila_lendvai1 [~attila_le@31.29.3.186] has joined #lisp 14:33:05 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Disconnected by services] 14:33:17 -!- attila_lendvai1 is now known as attila_lendvai 14:33:18 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@31.29.3.186] has quit [Changing host] 14:33:18 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 14:33:54 pkhuong: Yeah... years ago I had a hand in writing McClim's effective method browser; maybe I need to revisit that stuff. 14:35:19 sykopomp: That's pretty unpleasant. 14:37:46 -!- gekko_ [~jjk@78.157.103.6] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 14:39:38 moore33: some of the best swear by print-debugging! 14:40:19 sykopomp: Yeah, as a last resort :) 14:40:35 -!- helmetk_ [~textual@166.Red-79-144-191.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 14:41:18 moore33: not really. See C@W 14:41:19 sykopomp: after think-hard debugging. 14:41:21 -!- kennyd [kennyd@93-138-232-53.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:41:28 pkhuong: it depends! 14:41:44 Yes really, and I've done enough of it. 14:42:06 And yes, I know that source-level debugging of Lisp is reallyrealy hard because of macros, etc. 14:42:42 kennyd [kennyd@93-141-57-161.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 14:42:54 I think like half of the folks in C@W went straight to print debugging. 14:43:20 What is C@W? 14:43:34 Coders at Work 14:45:26 Thanks. Obviously I've been living under a rock for several years. 14:48:07 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:49:19 -!- tiripamwe [~tiripamwe@41.221.159.84] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:50:07 steffi_s [~marioooh@184.152.73.25] has joined #lisp 14:58:45 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:59:09 Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has joined #lisp 15:00:19 -!- LaughingMan [~chatzilla@boccacio.fh-trier.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 15:04:25 flanfl [~flanfl@cpc1-sgyl27-2-0-cust785.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 15:07:38 -!- pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:09:43 -!- nkkarthik [~nkkarthik@smtpbt.pramati.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:13:41 -!- sellout42 [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:14:21 -!- mario2 [~mario2@101.68.89.3] has left #lisp 15:14:40 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@31.29.3.186] has joined #lisp 15:14:41 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@31.29.3.186] has quit [Changing host] 15:14:41 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 15:16:05 Bike [~Glossina@67-5-245-92.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 15:16:52 -!- teggi [~teggi@113.172.54.215] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:17:58 kanru [~kanru@189-69-138-10.dial-up.telesp.net.br] has joined #lisp 15:20:07 sellout42 [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:21:49 -!- am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:21:56 jfe [~jfe@12.34.212.237] has joined #lisp 15:22:27 -!- zodiac1111 [~zodiac111@124.90.129.57] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:22:32 am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has joined #lisp 15:24:35 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 15:25:09 pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 15:25:16 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@proxysup.isae.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:25:36 -!- pjb is now known as Guest21139 15:25:40 mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.32.192] has joined #lisp 15:25:58 -!- Guest21139 is now known as pjb 15:27:06 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:27:27 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-eaxhqhznsqojydqz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:27:39 ynniv [~ynniv@c-24-98-197-10.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:28:02 -!- oconnore [~eric@38.111.17.138] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 15:28:22 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@31.29.3.186] has joined #lisp 15:28:22 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@31.29.3.186] has quit [Changing host] 15:28:22 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 15:29:07 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 15:29:26 -!- centipedefarmer [~centipede@75-170-158-31.desm.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 15:30:32 -!- tensorpudding_ is now known as tensorpudding 15:34:20 -!- kanru [~kanru@189-69-138-10.dial-up.telesp.net.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 15:34:56 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:35:00 -!- spacefrogg is now known as spacefrogg^ 15:36:51 macdice [~user@46-65-10-191.zone16.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 15:37:02 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@nantes.visionobjects.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 15:37:26 ivan-kanis [~user@nantes.visionobjects.com] has joined #lisp 15:38:50 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@31.29.3.186] has joined #lisp 15:38:50 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@31.29.3.186] has quit [Changing host] 15:38:50 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 15:39:05 anyone using log4cl with sbcl? 15:39:24 maxm-: are you using log4cl with sbcl? 15:40:58 helmetk [~textual@166.Red-79-144-191.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 15:42:04 stassats: yea 15:42:13 dapple [~user@123.120.56.82] has joined #lisp 15:42:19 have a problem with it, submit an issue 15:42:39 macdice: there you go 15:43:38 (defmacro times_two (x) (* 2 x));(macroexpand '(times_two 3));the result is 6. why isn't the result (* 2 3)?????? 15:43:53 dapple: you forgot to quote and unquote 15:44:07 pkhuong: how? 15:44:12 clhs ` 15:44:12 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_df.htm 15:45:39 pkhuong: you mean I need to write as (macroexpand '(times_two '3))? 15:45:59 you need to learn how macros work 15:46:04 minion: please tell dapple about PCL 15:46:04 dapple: please look at PCL: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 15:46:53 minion: ok. thanks. 15:46:54 please stop playing with me... i am not a toy 15:47:31 minion: where are your manners? 15:47:31 behind you! 15:47:49 that's quite a good response, i'll remember that 15:48:36 minion responds with this to any "where is" 15:48:47 stassats: fair enough, but i really like the response 15:48:49 minion: where is Atlantis? 15:48:49 behind you! 15:49:50 i wanted to check if i'm doing something stupid. i have a freshly quicklisp distro (yesterday), and (log:config :daily "test.log") tries to call bordeaux-threads:make-thread with an unsupported key :initial-bindings. doesn't everyone get that? 15:51:32 Is there any other usage for lisp language except for playing only inside emacs? 15:52:04 dapple: is that really what you wanted to know? 15:52:05 dapple: 'yes' 15:52:21 dapple: No, 359 people hang out in #lisp for their health. 15:52:26 dapple: now give us your real question. what are you really wondering about 15:52:47 moore33: no, that's really the last thing you should be here for. unless you're intensely trying to become mentally ill or get your brain fried 15:52:47 "if you can't grok it, attack it!" 15:53:17 I want to know why elisp are not popular just as the python/java... 15:53:25 madnificent: My brain was fried by Lisp a long time ago... 15:53:43 bad marketing 15:53:45 dapple: ask #emacs. We discuss common lisp here. 15:53:47 this channel is not about elisp 15:54:29 ok 15:55:11 dapple: common lisp is more used outside of the editor (it's more mature, solid, fast, what-have-you) 15:55:36 madnificent: slick, hip 15:56:03 and covered with magic unicorn dust 15:57:05 madnificent: i hope so. 15:57:27 eni [~eni@31.171.153.34] has joined #lisp 15:57:55 -!- flanfl [~flanfl@cpc1-sgyl27-2-0-cust785.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:58:03 mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-66-73-241.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:58:07 madnificent: is there any famouse software writen in common lisp? 15:58:15 benkard [~benkard@mnch-5d8566e1.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 15:58:23 dapple: ITA was recently bought by google, that might tell you something 15:58:47 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-17-207-226.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:59:11 Argh, where are my scroll wheel button events going... 15:59:13 dapple: we also don't spend 10 manyears on getting something running, vs the java crowd. i don't know if there are currently many public things using it. it's been invaluable to me for some school projects and i wouldn't want anything else for what i'm currently working on. 15:59:22 maxima is quite famous and you can run it yourself 15:59:25 moore33: yay, for less channel noize! 16:00:06 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:00:54 madnificent: so common list for you is just about some small school projects? 16:01:26 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@31.29.3.186] has joined #lisp 16:01:26 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@31.29.3.186] has quit [Changing host] 16:01:26 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 16:01:54 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:02:27 -!- dapple [~user@123.120.56.82] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:02:32 fantazo [~fantazo@213.129.230.10] has joined #lisp 16:02:57 -!- ferada [~ferada@dslb-188-097-128-127.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:03:04 emacs ... seems like the most obvious one over macsyma... 16:03:07 dapple: not at all. but whilst writing a raytracer i figured that i could add features *much* faster than my peers. by the time i had to do the exam, i also had a much better concept in my head of the intrinsic issues with writing a raytracer, versus the issues others had in their language :) 16:03:23 :/ 16:03:39 (or erc ... hehe) 16:03:50 ams: emacs being not written in common lisp? 16:03:54 ams: (eq *elisp* *common-lisp*) >> nil 16:04:07 -!- pirateking-_- [~piratekin@c-67-169-182-169.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: pirateking-_-] 16:04:23 (progn (require 'cl) (eq *elisp* *common-lisp*) ~ t 16:04:32 ams: nope, still nil 16:04:41 madnificent: almost t :-) 16:04:47 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:04:54 perhaps if we had quantum computing, you might have a 1% chance of it being t. but it's far from t 16:04:58 Anyway, yeah, he asked about common lisp.. missed that bit. 16:05:02 almost? emacs's cl lacks so much things it's not even funny 16:05:17 -!- gko [~user@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:05:35 stassats: I've managed to get full cl programs running under emacs using 'cl without much work... go figure. 16:05:37 ams: Culturally almost T, though the languages have differences. 16:05:37 -!- brianz [~brianz@124.235.99.225] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:05:49 ams: all kidding aside, it just depends on what they want to know about. i find emacs to be a bad example for most as they are *scared* my emacs, not looking up to it (unless you give the picture of looking up to a giant-mountain they'll have to climb over). 16:05:52 ams: Have a look at http://paste.lisp.org/display/122296 (intersection common-lisp emacs-lisp scheme) 16:06:02 with that, you can run full lisp programs on emacs, CL and scheme! 16:06:13 ams: packages, clos, mop, conditions? 16:06:26 emacs-cl 16:06:53 pjb: you were talking about getting emacs running in a common lisp core, do it! now! i want it! now! 16:06:59 stassats: I ported parts of clos once, so yeah, it is doable, without much work. 16:07:01 pjb: and then ams can be happy to be right :) 16:07:13 madnificent: nah, i prefer maclisp/elisp. 16:08:35 and i'm not even talking about non-standard things like threads, ffi, etc. 16:08:41 jnbek|wc [~jnbek@pdpc/supporter/active/jnbek] has joined #lisp 16:08:44 kanru [~kanru@189-69-138-10.dial-up.telesp.net.br] has joined #lisp 16:09:31 Does elisp have keyword arguments yet? 16:09:35 -!- steffi_s [~marioooh@184.152.73.25] has quit [Quit: zzzz] 16:09:57 moore33: you can have them with wonderful defun*! 16:10:22 moore33: defun* and 'cl ... 16:10:22 Hot damn 16:10:43 oh, and multiple-values, don't forget multiple-values, elisp doesn't have 'em 16:10:48 the lack of keywords was a conscious omission in elisp.. 16:11:03 What? defun allows keyword arguments. 16:11:09 rms doesn't get everything right all the time. 16:11:21 does he ever? 16:11:30 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 16:11:49 stassats: very often, more so than most people. 16:11:50 mvilleneuve:Hey you :) 16:12:21 zort-: does it really? 16:12:27 keywords aren't very lispy, and i agree with that. 16:12:48 what is this "lispy" thing everybody is talking about? 16:12:51 (funcall (lambda (&key foo) foo) :foo 1) ==> 1 16:13:08 -!- kanru [~kanru@189-69-138-10.dial-up.telesp.net.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:13:29 ams: They've been a part of Lisp for at least 30 years... 16:13:48 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Client Quit] 16:13:48 moore33: eh, maclisp didn't have 'em... 16:13:55 macdice: doh, I guess bordeax-thread removed initial-binding arg 16:13:58 did not noticed somehow 16:14:05 bunch of other lisps didn't have 'em either 16:14:09 zort-: elisp ref manual doesn't describe them 16:14:20 macdice: unless you running on a SBCL built without threads? I admit I never tested on such config 16:14:20 ams: Zetalisp did... 16:14:25 zort-: is this new? 16:14:38 I didn't think so... 16:14:56 anyhow, (funcall (lambda (&optional (foo 10)) foo)) still doesn't work 16:14:58 (elisp) Type Keywords 16:15:09 <|3b|> (funcall (lambda (&key foo) &key) :foo 1) => :foo ? 16:15:14 -!- PuercoPop [~PuercoPop@190.41.173.174] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 16:15:28 maxm: no it's a threadful build, i am using threads, lots of 'em, via bordeaux-threads 16:15:37 |3b|: good catch! 16:15:59 Can you instead discuss how lexical scoping only started being lispy a couple months ago on #emacs? 16:16:13 *|3b|* only has 23.3.1 though 16:16:18 -!- Khisanth [~Khisanth@50.14.244.111] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:16:30 |3b|: same thing on 24.x 16:16:35 pkhuong: me? i don't care if i can use dynamic scope when i want it, or use lexical scope when i need it; frankly i don't care though i prefer dynamic :-) 16:16:36 Ok, make-hash-table implements keywords on its own I guess. 16:16:41 macdice: give me a moment to upgrade quicklisp 16:16:49 zort-: defun* from cl does have keywords 16:17:23 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:18:36 -!- naryl [~weechat@46.182.24.168] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8] 16:18:54 macdice: does evaluating (bordeaux-threads:make-thread (lambda ()) :initial-bindings bt:*default-special-bindings*) give you the same error? 16:19:03 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.32.192] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:19:15 naryl [~weechat@46.182.24.168] has joined #lisp 16:19:15 -!- naryl [~weechat@46.182.24.168] has quit [Client Quit] 16:19:24 naryl [~weechat@46.182.24.168] has joined #lisp 16:20:03 macdice: maybe you have really old version of bordeax-threads hanging around somewhere, that is loaded instead of quicklisp one? Try going to the source of bt:make-thread by doing M-. on it, see if its in quicklisp directory or somewher else, it should hake &key initial-bindings argument 16:21:15 s/hake/have 16:21:37 anon119 [~bman@12.104.144.2] has joined #lisp 16:22:09 trace event-queue-peek... this is going to create a spew... 16:22:13 -!- c_arenz [~arenz@HSI-KBW-109-193-252-079.hsi7.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:22:26 -!- zort- [~eitan@bas1-toronto07-1176315793.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:23:45 add^_ [~add^_@m213-101-201-147.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 16:24:10 Khisanth [~Khisanth@50.14.244.111] has joined #lisp 16:24:51 maxm: you are quite right. thank you for the excellent detective work. i had ancient bt lurking under .sbcl/site. even though quicklisp was downloading and building bt, it wasn't being used 16:25:06 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 16:26:14 macdice: you welcome.. Generally if you have any problems or such with log4cl, submit github issue, so I'll get notified, as I'm monitoring IRC a bit less these days 16:27:07 -!- benkard [~benkard@mnch-5d8566e1.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 16:28:32 i assume you are the author. looks pretty cool. i was looking at the various logging libraries mentioned on cliki and log4cl looked most appealing, once i got past the name (i used to be a corporate java programmer. i still have nightmares.) 16:28:43 mainly it looks like it is suitable for extremely lazy people such as myself 16:28:44 -!- damg [~dima2001@p5B067A6F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: damg] 16:30:51 benkard [~benkard@mnch-5d8566e1.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 16:31:00 alama [~jessealam@stgt-5f701428.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 16:32:13 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:32:47 flanfl [~flanfl@cpc1-sgyl27-2-0-cust785.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 16:33:29 thanks. There will be an update hopefully pretty soonish, making it more dwim, and slime integration and such 16:34:43 -!- eni [~eni@31.171.153.34] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:40:16 -!- Khisanth [~Khisanth@50.14.244.111] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:40:47 steffi_s [~marioooh@rrcs-50-74-184-170.nyc.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:41:50 lemonodor [4b5398d1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.75.83.152.209] has joined #lisp 16:43:56 fold [~fold@71-8-117-85.dhcp.ftwo.tx.charter.com] has joined #lisp 16:44:50 question for anyone running production CL software on lots of servers: how do you run and talk to lisp images? do you leave SLIME listening on a port? do you run images as standard unixoid daemons, with init.d start/stop scripts so they come up at machine boot? 16:45:01 iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has joined #lisp 16:45:43 i just run things inside screen 16:46:00 -!- fold [~fold@71-8-117-85.dhcp.ftwo.tx.charter.com] has quit [Client Quit] 16:46:28 macdice: i mostly use screen. for some things i use detachtty. some instances indeed have a swank port open (though it's firewalled) 16:46:57 with sbcl --disable-debugger --disable-ldb and restarting in a loop 16:47:12 i have no access to init scripts, but if i had, i'd use them too 16:51:17 -!- am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:53:43 Khisanth [~Khisanth@50.14.244.111] has joined #lisp 16:55:11 macdice: another common method is for the daemon to use swank, such that emacs+slime can connect and disconnect to swank, locally or remotely 16:55:36 -!- loke [~elias@bb115-66-85-121.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:57:27 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@nantes.visionobjects.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:57:35 BeLucid_ [~belucid@cpe-066-057-034-009.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:57:43 punee_ [~punee@213-245-106-105.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 16:58:47 blackwol` [~blackwolf@ool-4575fc51.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 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[~PuercoPop@190.237.7.137] has joined #lisp 17:07:34 -!- abeaumont [~alfredo@226.Red-79-155-170.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:07:57 abeaumont [~alfredo@168.Red-88-7-16.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 17:08:02 bjorkintosh [~bjork@ip68-13-229-200.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 17:08:52 Gurragchaa [u6439@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-bnftysxoiqbpicsm] has joined #lisp 17:09:12 justicefries [~justicefr@50-76-131-66-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 17:10:21 j`ey [~joey@unaffiliated/jey/x-00002] has joined #lisp 17:10:56 hi, I have an error when trying to build cmucl-git: http://pastebin.com/AVw92vpV 17:11:12 Building like so: ./bin/build.sh -C "" -o "prebuilt/bin/lisp" 17:11:21 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 17:11:35 is there any reason for you to use cmucl? 17:12:03 I err, want to 17:12:19 why do you want to? 17:12:35 -!- benkard [~benkard@mnch-5d8566e1.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:12:38 just do 17:12:49 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-66-73-241.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 17:12:51 so, no reasons then? 17:13:01 nope 17:13:02 <|3b|> sbcl is the traditional answer to problems building cmucl 17:13:17 :P 17:13:21 are there any reasons to build it from source instead of using a snapshot then? 17:13:53 not really 17:14:01 I'd just like to build it from source 17:15:41 kanru [~kanru@189-69-138-10.dial-up.telesp.net.br] has joined #lisp 17:16:59 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-99-190-99-176.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:17:10 j`ey:Building cmucl from source can be pretty hairy: it uses an existing version of cmucl and more-or-less destroys itself during the compile. 17:17:48 Yeah, I downloaded a 20c snapshot 17:18:27 -!- ignas [~ignas@office.pov.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:19:26 ticking [~janpaulbu@87.253.189.132] has joined #lisp 17:19:37 <|3b|> http://common-lisp.net/gitweb?p=projects/cmucl/cmucl.git;a=commitdiff;h=2e95a0bb1011de96626271d6c4e367a6a8e7a6a4;js=1 suggests you need to use some special build script to get to current version 17:20:10 hm 17:20:31 -!- flanfl [~flanfl@cpc1-sgyl27-2-0-cust785.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:20:53 -!- p_l_ is now known as p_l 17:22:29 -!- sellout42 [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:23:09 -!- justicefries [~justicefr@50-76-131-66-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has left #lisp 17:24:29 flanfl [~flanfl@cpc1-sgyl27-2-0-cust785.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 17:25:17 sellout42 [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:28:36 Alice3 [~Alice@cpc3-grim12-0-0-cust856.12-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 17:29:19 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@196-210-180-8.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:30:48 If I used that.. I assume with -B, it complains the file doesnt exist :< 17:32:18 VieiraN [~VieiraN@187.10.244.166] has joined #lisp 17:34:37 gabre [~gabre@dsl51B6EA2D.pool.t-online.hu] has joined #lisp 17:34:41 hello all 17:35:04 I need some help with Lisp :) if possible 17:35:18 jjkola_ [~androirc@212-226-65-220-nat.elisa-mobile.fi] has joined #lisp 17:36:52 -!- jjkola [~androirc@212-226-67-196-nat.elisa-mobile.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:38:42 gabre: what is your problem? 17:38:57 -!- ticking [~janpaulbu@87.253.189.132] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 17:39:32 i am using elisp 17:39:52 and i want to create a drop-menu in emacs 17:40:23 didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has joined #lisp 17:40:25 i would like to have filenames in this menu so it must be a dinamically generated one 17:40:42 the elisp syntax for this menu item: 17:40:51 you want #emacs 17:40:53 hrm .. should it be safe to read(-from-string) arbitrary data using a readtable with only explicit (i.e. non-derived) macro chars? 17:41:11 as safe as the functions in question, of course 17:41:33 -!- m7w [~chatzilla@178.172.214.225] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:41:36 #. is totally unsafe, at least set *read-eval* to NIL 17:41:40 no i dont need emacs, now comes the lisp problem 17:41:50 stassats: well, right, that's the obvious one to not include 17:42:00 and interning, interning can be troublesome 17:42:15 right .. the worst case i can see is interning lots and lots of symbols 17:42:25 and large numbers, 10e1000000000000000000 17:42:32 gabre: this channel is for common lisp, not elisp. 17:42:55 there's a patch for sbcl for this, i should really apply it 17:43:03 hrm 17:43:38 kanru` [~kanru@189-69-138-10.dial-up.telesp.net.br] has joined #lisp 17:44:07 okay, I understand, Bike 17:44:09 thx 17:44:12 -!- kanru [~kanru@189-69-138-10.dial-up.telesp.net.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:44:17 -!- wolgo [~jarrod@li155-127.members.linode.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:44:19 bye all 17:44:24 -!- gabre [~gabre@dsl51B6EA2D.pool.t-online.hu] has left #lisp 17:45:05 and circular structures, you might not expect them 17:45:57 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu2.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 17:46:24 well, those i'm expecting/hoping for .. few other formats (json, mpk, etc) handle them sadly 17:47:05 and, large arrays as well 17:48:09 -!- newcup [newcup@peruna.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 17:48:14 the physical input size is bounded and there shouldn't be a way to create arbitrary-size (unfilled) data structures .. number parsing as above is actually an issue though 17:48:24 -!- flanfl [~flanfl@cpc1-sgyl27-2-0-cust785.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:49:13 -!- phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:49:26 -!- mathrick_ [~mathrick@94.144.63.84] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:49:38 rwiker [~rwiker@84.48.39.52] has joined #lisp 17:49:45 oGMo: i mean #100000A() 17:50:11 stassats: yeah 17:50:54 -!- rwiker [~rwiker@84.48.39.52] has quit [Client Quit] 17:51:08 -!- kanru` [~kanru@189-69-138-10.dial-up.telesp.net.br] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:51:48 or rather #10000000000(a b c) 17:51:50 ticking [~janpaulbu@87.253.189.132] has joined #lisp 17:51:59 m7w [~chatzilla@178.172.214.225] has joined #lisp 17:55:58 -!- VieiraN [~VieiraN@187.10.244.166] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:56:18 ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has joined #lisp 17:59:00 lemonodor_ [4b5398d1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.75.83.152.209] has joined #lisp 17:59:10 -!- lemonodor [4b5398d1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.75.83.152.209] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:03:03 kanru [~kanru@189-69-138-10.dial-up.telesp.net.br] has joined #lisp 18:04:23 mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has joined #lisp 18:06:16 -!- iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 18:06:44 heh, cl-json has the 10e100000000000000 problem 18:07:07 i'm not sure if that should be considered an sbcl bug or not 18:07:10 -!- kanru [~kanru@189-69-138-10.dial-up.telesp.net.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:08:38 iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has joined #lisp 18:10:12 -!- alama [~jessealam@stgt-5f701428.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 18:14:51 Bike: next time the clueless insists on presenting his lisp problem, let him, and answer with upcase CL code. 18:14:59 it's easy to make #( ignore the numeric argument, and i suppose any dispatch char can be checked for its argument 18:15:25 oGMo: if you're not reading from a controlled source, you should not use the lisp reader. 18:15:36 If you still do, you can indeed replace all the reader macros. 18:16:03 right i'm talking about starting with a blank readtable and explicitly defining what should be allowed 18:16:25 i could write a new reader, but it seems like a duplicate effort 18:16:33 -!- tensorpudding [~michael@99.160.220.254] has quit [Quit: tensorpudding] 18:16:57 and there's no saying my new reader would be less buggy than an existing one 18:17:02 oGMo: not only sbcl hangs on 10e100000000000000 18:17:05 oGMo: theorically, you could still do a DOS attack interning symbols in a package. 18:17:15 stassats: i tried ccl and clisp, neither did, but i can see it being an issue 18:17:30 ecl does 18:17:31 pjb: in theory, but not with reasonably-bounded input 18:17:36 Yes. 18:17:59 and there's a patch for sbcl 18:18:09 stassats: one you wrote! 18:18:44 lp 309070 18:18:45 https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/309070 18:18:59 ideally i suppose it would be nice to write a new reader that could be more strictly controlled, such as outputting uninterned symbols, and not being confused by large exponents, etc 18:19:15 well, it's been two years, so, i guess it's about time to apply it 18:19:24 i need to recheck all the logic, though 18:19:25 stassats: doubtless :P 18:19:26 macrobat [~fuzzyglee@h-17-133.a328.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 18:22:20 -!- sellout42 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has joined #lisp 18:43:06 -!- alama [~jessealam@stgt-5f701428.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Client Quit] 18:43:22 DDR [~chatzilla@d66-183-118-10.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 18:44:26 ThomasH [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/thomash] has joined #lisp 18:44:30 Greetings lispers 18:44:59 Greetings, mortal. 18:46:41 -!- pnathan [~pnathan@68-24-131-229.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi] 18:46:45 iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has joined #lisp 18:48:34 *10 points to tvaalen* 18:49:19 -!- iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has quit [Client Quit] 18:50:53 stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-236-152.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 18:53:12 benkard [~benkard@mnch-5d8566e1.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 18:54:08 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@213.129.230.10] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 18:57:06 lol 18:59:01 Demosthenes [~demo@mce5336d0.tmodns.net] has joined #lisp 18:59:39 vantage|home [~vantage@13.220-242-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] 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sleep.] 19:25:42 fantazo [~fantazo@91-119-125-214.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 19:31:24 kyle__ [~kyle@173-165-60-19-Illinois.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 19:33:12 Running a computer lab, and now (AFTER classes started), a professor requested a LISP environment for his course. Are there good/reasonable lisp plugins for eclipse or netbeans that my google-foo just isn't finding? Or is it best to just have students use emacs? 19:33:40 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:34:21 does a macro like this already exist "pipe" - (defun lerp (lo hi f) (pipe (- hi lo)(* f)(+ lo))) ... same as (+lo (* f (- hi lo))) ... to write a sequence of expressions passing the result of each as the last argument to the next 19:34:42 I think most everybody here uses emacs, kyle__. maybe a few vim users. 19:34:51 (i'm just messing with ways to reduce number of parentheses) 19:35:25 kyle__: Go for Emacs. Some of them will thank you later. 19:36:41 didi: I'm assuming it takes some setup to turn emacs into a lisp environment? 19:36:42 superflit [~superflit@209-181-74-166.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 19:36:52 kyle__: A little. Not much though. 19:37:09 kyle__: It can run elisp out of the box, though. 19:37:57 kyle__: if you have a lisp installation, installing quicklisp (downloading and loading one file) and then (ql:quickload :quicklisp-slime-helper) should be it 19:38:31 kyle__: Did the professor request Common Lisp or just Lisp? 19:39:19 ThomasH: He requested Xlisp. I'm trying to nudge him towards something that's been updated in the last decade. SBCL or clisp. 19:39:49 kyle__: For educational environments, you could also consider Racket. 19:40:21 n00b6502: not sure if that will make your code easier to read. but alexandria has combine, perhaps that's what you want 19:40:35 though, no, not in that same syntax 19:40:54 hum. 19:41:16 madnificient: to me it seems natural to write something that way.. a sequence of modifications to a value 19:41:25 n00b6502: aside from me disliking it, it should be an easy macro to write :) also, tab-complete my name 19:41:46 i've just written it sure; just learning waht you can do with macros 19:42:03 n00b6502: yes, i like to see where it goes to, so i'd probably prefer to see the nesting. must have something to do with how lisp grows on you. (nesting isn't necessarily bad) 19:43:00 madnificent: in c++ ... value.doSomething().doSomethingELse().doSomethingElse() 19:43:16 n00b6502: yes, let's not keep that terrible habbit 19:43:36 i've called it "pipe" like throwing a value into a pipeline 19:44:10 n00b6502: if you want to express that, you'd wont to express a chain. but that is not what you are trying to express here. you're trying to express how a complex formula is calculated. and in the complex formula various results are nested. try not to think about how to calculate it, but about what you are trying to express. 19:44:10 (funcall (compose #'do-something #'do-something-else #'do-something-else) value) 19:44:32 Bike: yes, but he'd also want to add curry to that a few times, making it even uglier than it is now 19:45:01 n00b6502: for what it is worth, i've made very similar reasoning than what you make now, in the past. 19:45:09 i can tell my lisp is going to look completely different to everyone elses 19:46:00 n00b6502: You'd be better served learning to code in lisp. 19:46:16 n00b6502: no, you should let the lisp grow on you. make the s-expressions part of your talk. the goal is to describe your problem in s-expressions and build something to handle the problem from there on. what you are describing is a way of calculating something, not what you are trying to calculate. 19:46:35 i've written the set-slots i wanted yesterday :) (set-slots object (x 10)(y 20)(z 5)) kind of like object.{x=10,y=20,z=5} 19:46:37 ThomasH: i've had that thrown at me a lot of times. people don't understand what it means, until they have learned to code in lisp already. sadly 19:47:14 n00b6502: i beg you, don't start mimicing other languages in lisp. you don't start praying to buddha in a catholic church either 19:47:34 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 19:47:59 hehe the writing a function as a pipeline is probably closest to forth 19:48:43 n00b6502: on the last fragment though: it may make sense to have it. however, trying to write C++ in lisp will not make you a better programmer at all. it will most likely turn you into a lisp hater, because it didn't offer you what it should, even though it could. 19:50:03 every time i've glanced at lisp in the past, i find i can write math prefix ok - i've done plenty of that with helper functions in plain C - but its the record accesor operators i really start missing. Same in haskell 19:50:26 this is the first time i've really dived in and tried to actually write something, it does look like it could be fun 19:50:47 n00b6502: l1sp.org/cl/with-accessors 19:51:14 and, obviously, the :accessor option when defining classes 19:51:20 i've found "with-slots" aswell 19:51:35 *madnificent* thought n00b6502 wanted to set 19:52:01 in haskell i found myself doing f a b = b#a to simulate record accesors 19:52:55 n00b6502: if you're learning languages, don't rape them. no language deserves that 19:54:12 -!- steffi_s [~marioooh@rrcs-50-74-184-170.nyc.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: zzzz] 19:54:22 lisp macros do seem rather fun 19:54:32 n00b6502, i solved a bunch of projecteuler problems with scheme and it was some of the most fun i've ever had programming 19:54:39 n00b6502: In other words, if you want to code using C++ idioms, use C++. The point of learning another language is to gain a new perspective. 19:55:04 -!- philth [~philth@ohproxy1.avaya.com] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 19:55:06 well having the language able to manippulate its own AST is a new perspective already 19:55:09 s/some of// 19:56:06 n00b6502: you can do that in C# with LINQ. 19:56:10 dmx [~dmx@adsl-67-121-157-253.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 19:56:40 got my 'mad' or *+ working too :) (print (mad(2 2)(10 3) ) -> 34 19:56:54 n00b6502: that is true. you discovered a feature of the language. however, the features which make up the language allow you to think in a certain way. the most valuable of learning other languages is learning that train of thaught. try to grasp that, and you'll be a better programmer in all other languages. don't and you'll just know what features the language has. 19:57:42 going back from haskell to c++ i had to setup #defines for declaring functions with partial applictaion :) 19:58:15 moog_ [~wircer@173-111-243-75.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 19:58:30 qptain_Nemo [~qN@81-235-52-30-no79.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 19:58:48 perhaps i'll try writing a lisp macro to declare a ready made curryable function 19:59:26 like 'defcurryfun' or something 19:59:33 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:00:17 -!- MattCoder [b1678b70@gateway/web/freenode/ip.177.103.139.112] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 20:00:18 n00b6502: why not use #'alexandria:curry? why not learn the language itself instead? is lisp unworthy of your attention? 20:00:28 -!- jnbek|wc [~jnbek@pdpc/supporter/active/jnbek] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:00:44 Forty-Two [~seana11@pool-96-255-130-43.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:01:03 at the minute i'm penduluming between many alternatives. (as you can possibly tell, i'm a c++ head, just trying others out) 20:01:11 (i've only written serious programs in c++) 20:01:32 n00b6502: at the moment you're not doing anything. you're looking at the specs of each option, you're not looking at what the specs may offer you. 20:01:51 madnificent: macros are the only reason for me to learn lisp 20:02:18 in which case, again, you can do the same stuff in C# with LINQ. 20:02:23 i'm completely sold on 'functoinal' programming and i prefer to try and write c++ like that where possible , this comes from trying to write parallelizable code 20:02:37 n00b6502: what paradigm is lisp? 20:02:43 parForEach or better still parMap 20:02:53 lisp is multi-paradigm ? 20:02:54 n00b6502: is it functional? object oriented? is it something else? 20:03:10 n00b6502: yes it is, but you're not grasping it, you're hearing it 20:03:20 n00b6502: lisp is not for macros, macros are tiny tiny thing of it 20:03:20 i gather its not pure functional but its the originator of 'lambda' 20:03:33 and 'map', 'reduce' 20:03:47 i hear some good things about clos too eg multiple-dispatch 20:04:11 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:04:17 in C/C++ one can sometimes fudge RTTI with x-macros, i'm guessing lisp-macros can do all that more elegantly 20:04:46 pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 20:05:23 lambda is from mathematics. I'm not sure about map and fold, but I wouldn't be surprised if they were from maths originally as well. 20:05:54 -!- pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:06:00 i'm talking digital implementations obviously :) yeah i gather 'lambda calculus' is older 20:06:04 n00b6502: you should /at least/ add the condition system to your list and the MOP. also, things like context oriented programming and the likes are things you can learn a lot from. if/when you learn reader-macros (which are likely not what you think right now), then i will probably want to murder you (given your current line of language-abuse), but you should learn it nonetheless if you want to have a clue what lisp is abo 20:06:51 what are 'reader-macros' :) 20:06:57 -!- df___ is now known as df_ 20:07:03 Nobody tell! 20:07:11 they sound awesome.. 20:07:49 -!- peterhil` [~peterhil@gatekeeper.brainalliance.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:08:19 n00b6502: learn to grasp the language as a language first, then the rest will come over time :) 20:08:50 i'm not sure how much time i will put into each non-c++ langauge 20:08:53 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu2.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:09:02 pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 20:09:41 n00b6502: I think PragProg has a book or two devoted to getting the essences of various languages pretty quickly  not sure how good they are, but it sounds like what you're looking for. 20:09:55 Like "Seven Languages in Seven Weeks" or something. 20:10:19 sellout42: i doubt you can get the feel of a language in that amount of time 20:10:32 i've heard a lot of the scripting languages described as a sort of front end over a lisp variant 20:11:24 madnificent: I agree, but if n00b6502 is set on that approach, it's probably good to go somewhere that tries to maximize the benefit. 20:11:43 -!- pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:12:27 pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 20:12:46 here's my langauge path. BBC-basic -> 6502->68kasm->C & various RISC asm -> C++ ... i've done tiny amounts of dabling with js & python 20:13:07 sellout42: i have the cold feeling of a person that learned the basics of lisps but didn't grasp them going wild to support his own preferred language later on, at the cost of lisp. thereby adding traction to the idea that it is somehow an unusable language. 20:13:52 -!- pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:14:01 madnificent: Like everyone who took an undergrad proglang course ;)  at least, that was my experience  took me a while to unlearn that stuff. 20:14:12 How to write C code in any language. 20:14:32 pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 20:14:57 -!- pjb is now known as Guest76657 20:15:08 sellout42: i think they did that reasonably well here. it is obviously up to the student to do samething sensible with it though. (no lisp involved) 20:15:12 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:15:14 -!- Guest76657 is now known as pjb 20:15:22 madnificent: the ability to write macros like 'set-slots' certianly appears like it could lift it above 'unusable' status for me 20:16:33 jnbek|wc [~jnbek@pdpc/supporter/active/jnbek] has joined #lisp 20:16:39 Perhaps that's a reason why lisp should not be a first programming language? That only experienced programmers who have suffered with the other programming language may learn lisp, see the point, and still avoid those silly macros? 20:17:29 n00b6502: Why would set-slots not be a function? 20:17:40 Actually, sorry, I gotta run. Answer when I get back ;) 20:18:02 pjb: i had to do a lot of thought-removal to grasp CLOS when coming from lisp. a lot of bulk useless knowledge with all sorts of odd fixpoints had to be removed. lisp as a first language would have (arguably) made that easier on me. 20:18:15 -!- sellout42 [~Adium@65.101.242.214] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:18:41 it set-slots was a function would it need the symbols quoted e.g. (set-slots mypoint 'x 10 'y 20 'z 30) 20:18:51 ^if set-slots was a function would it need the symbols quoted e.g. (set-slots mypoint 'x 10 'y 20 'z 30) 20:19:11 i guess thats ok 20:19:35 -!- jnbek|wc [~jnbek@pdpc/supporter/active/jnbek] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:21:32 jnbek|wc [~jnbek@pdpc/supporter/active/jnbek] has joined #lisp 20:21:34 (set-slots pt (case (random 3) (0 'x) (1 'y) (2 'z)) 0) 20:23:25 ah like pointer-to-member 20:24:30 LISP = List Intelligent Symbolic Programming langage. 20:24:35 ok if you can pass a slots' "symbol" around so easily i can see that being more useful than a macro 20:24:58 not 'LISt Processing' ? 20:26:15 incf n00b6502 20:32:26 n00b6502: here is how you learn Lisp, you forget C++ immediately! The only thing you know about C++ is that it's a vitamin supplement of some sort! You must acquire a beginner's mind, no other way will be even close to efficient. 20:32:32 -!- moore33 [~moore@17.185.125.78.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 20:32:52 i'm not forgetting c++ anytime soon 20:32:59 and thats the problem 20:33:06 Then you're not learning lisp anytime soon either. 20:33:30 if you are unable to process new information independent of previous experience, you will miss important things. 20:33:47 compare old and new only after you've aquired new, not before 20:33:59 n00b6502: you should probably stop learning other languages and head back to C++ then. no offense, but it just doesn't work that way. (also, i seem to find lisp to have an afwul lot of Zen to it when hearing everyone's comments and i don't suggest you don't learn lisp, i suggest you give it a real chance). 20:35:37 I've been thinking about learning ocaml some time soon, and I predict I will have a lot of trouble if I bring my prejudice against static typing to the table. 20:35:53 and try to use ocaml as a lisp 20:36:24 static typing v dynamic typing : type-inference is the synthesis from this 20:36:33 best of both 20:36:49 the fact i've used C++ hasn't stopped me seeing that. 20:37:25 and i now love 'auto' in c++11 (added far too late); ditto i like the look of 'clay' 20:37:46 n00b6502, uh, the physical keypresses required aren't the only objection against static typing. 20:38:09 its not the physical keypresses. its the ability to write generic code 20:38:21 -!- DDR [~chatzilla@d66-183-118-10.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20:38:21 n00b6502: can C++ tell me what the type of an object is at runtime? 20:38:23 i didn't say C++11 has it nailed yet 20:38:59 pavelpenev: i know the C++ class system is very limited. i dont like it. i've often built my own class systems in C 20:39:00 DDR [~chatzilla@d66-183-118-10.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 20:39:07 I don't see how type inference helps with writing generic code 20:39:14 well it does 20:39:32 'clay' takes templates/macros to their logical conclusion 20:39:38 and that was besides my point, I just gave the typing example as something that will make it more difficult for me to learn ocaml when I finally give it a shot, if I don't forget lisp while I'm doing it! 20:39:40 with better type-inference 20:39:57 Uh, your own class system in C? that seems... audacious. 20:40:16 Sure, if you're blindly copy/pasting code, but if you're infering a type, you should be able to, in theory, write the type out explicitely, without loss of genericness. 20:40:20 lisp is a speed disorder! not a language! I must learn ocaml properly! 20:40:21 if you've seen any c programs you'll know the sort of thing i mean 20:40:21 pavelpenev: well, ocaml is annoying in places because, iirc, you couldn't have multiple-dispatch on types 20:40:36 people use #defines to roll their own object-systems 20:40:58 -!- sepuku [~spk@dsl-aav0rt.dyn.edudsl.gr] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:41:15 infering types that go into functons 20:41:19 n00b6502: for very varying definitions of object-system. 20:41:32 you can code any object system in ASM 20:41:45 you can code any object system in C, its easier than doing itt in ASM 20:41:55 Actually, hmm. In Haskell there are cases where you can't write out the inferred type, although there's a language extension that fixes that. 20:42:00 of course a specific language for a speecific object sysstem would be best 20:42:01 n00b6502: and it integrates perfectly! certainly, everyone knows that. 20:42:14 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.63.222] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:42:16 I wrote an object system in C, I wanted to kill something after that. 20:42:52 sepuku [~spk@dsl-aav0rt.dyn.edudsl.gr] has joined #lisp 20:43:09 pavelpenev: next time use COS :) 20:43:27 well.. C/C++ is used where there is no choice, when direct control over memory is required. such as on sony PS3 where the memory model is not the same as on most computers 20:43:34 -!- moog_ [~wircer@173-111-243-75.pools.spcsdns.net] has left #lisp 20:43:40 p_l: I plan to use C very seldom for the remainder of my life. 20:43:54 -!- macdice [~user@46-65-10-191.zone16.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:43:59 n00b6502: so, not like what GOAL did in the past, or isn't that a lisp? 20:44:02 n00b6502: C++ is used a lot because the devs have no idea about other options or drink the "C++ is fastest" coolaid 20:44:05 *kool-aid 20:44:07 it was a customized lisp 20:44:15 n00b6502: so it was a lisp? 20:44:20 ok it was a lisp. 20:44:28 n00b6502: no, you can make GOAL in CL if you really wanted. SBCL has all the bits necessary, even 20:44:48 n00b6502: so there was an alternative option... but people still stuck to C/C++... just like they stick to C/C++/C#/Java these days :) 20:45:04 The few C++ features my school introduced me to make me want to puke, C is at least tolerable if you have sufficient patience. 20:45:05 p_l many gamedevs know other languages and wish they could use them 20:45:19 HG`` [~HG@wprt-4db6e1cd.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 20:45:19 gamedevs are well aware of C++'s clunkyness and shortcomings 20:45:20 -!- cipher`` [~user@2620:0:2820:a1:91f6:e19:9189:e5af] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:45:28 GOAL? 20:45:34 n00b6502: I recall hearing once that a lot of "old" console gamedevs (i.e. not the ones that moved from PC) were "assembler only", even after writing C :) 20:45:39 Game Oriented Assembly Lisp 20:45:57 a lisp system Naughty Dog made for PS2 games. 20:46:00 p_l i stradled that era 20:46:12 ASM -> C&R3000 on ps1 20:46:25 prior to using C i was ASM only on 68000 20:46:36 i was at school not a gamedev at the time 20:47:08 i am a gamedev, and i'm glad i never coded in C or C++ 20:47:10 n00b6502: there are gamedevs that *know*, and there are gamedevs that go "oh, this&that was written in C/C++, obviously it must be fastest" 20:47:11 back in the 16bit era, i'm not sure compilers were up to it 20:47:34 n00b6502: /act 20:47:36 oops 20:47:38 sorry 20:47:41 - 20:47:52 p_l i'm not even comfortable with so much use of dynamic memory allocators, let along garbage collection 20:48:06 there are stll gamedevs with a phobia of that, admitedly minority now 20:48:23 Does Tcl count as having GC? 20:48:25 n00b6502: you know that it's kinda close to definition of "cargo cult"? 20:48:36 what? 20:48:39 -!- HG` [~HG@78.129.156.98] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:48:49 n00b6502: those phobias 20:49:14 actually getting memory allocation is hard, and putting a good GC into it might be actually easier 20:49:25 multithreaded environment, you dont want multiple threads hitting the same memory pools 20:49:33 for temporaries 20:49:57 multicore rather. you want their caches to not overlap 20:50:07 n00b6502: keeping temporaries away for multiple threads is IMHO easiest part 20:50:27 shit hits the fan when you try to fit on a console with borked memory access patterns 20:50:38 yes very much so 20:50:58 still, there are good fast GC designs available 20:51:40 including ones tailored for specific uses 20:52:07 i can't imagine anything beating being able to reason explicitely about how an algorithm allocates / deallocates /overwrites memory.. the allocation is part of the algorithm 20:52:09 when you really want to go with "c the fastest", you need to go at it like that nvidia guy responsible for FXAA 20:52:27 (who, first of all, kicked libc out) 20:52:48 n00b6502: but in practice, people don't have the time to think about that. plus, defining things with dynamic-extent etc can give the compiler quite good insights about what you're trying to do. 20:52:55 -!- lemonodor_ [4b5398d1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.75.83.152.209] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:53:05 i'm well aware that most lines of code written in this world suit GC just fine 20:53:12 -!- add^_ [~add^_@m213-101-201-147.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: add^_] 20:53:25 n00b6502: it's possible to manipulate such stuff quite well if you want 20:53:38 i'm also aware its possible GC might win for a fixed amount of programmer time 20:54:00 given that manual memory management erquires programmer time to get right 20:54:20 n00b6502: and quite possibly will go borked outside of dev's machines 20:54:37 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@mce5336d0.tmodns.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:54:44 anyway my interest in "other languages" partly comes from doing multi-core and observing the "map" mentality as opposed to "iteration" seems more suitable 20:54:47 -!- robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:54:53 for example, .NET CLRs tailors some of the important defaults based on cpu it's running (L2 size, cache line size, etc.) 20:55:38 p_l: can we get that in sbcl plz? 20:55:50 whats SBCL 20:55:58 madnificent: I'm considering working on SBCL's GC for my honours project 20:56:01 n00b6502, a particular Common Lisp implementation 20:56:06 One of the more popular ones. 20:56:19 also one of the fastests in terms of generated code 20:56:31 n00b6502: the . best . common lisp . implementation. it's just good, but it's certainly not the only one out tere. 20:56:48 there are also implementations that might better fit specific uses 20:57:15 i do continue to meet people who think C is faster than C++ (not just certain features of C++ are slower) 20:57:19 hell, Naughty Dog ex-employees went with customized Scheme recently 20:57:19 p_l: cool, thanks :) i wasn't expecting you to do someting with it :) 20:57:25 i know many have misconceptions 20:57:49 n00b6502: I once tried to implement direct FFI to C++ 20:57:54 n00b6502: and i keep meeting people who claim macros are senseless and metaprogramming can not be put to use in real life. welcome to earth 20:58:07 I left it with impression of reading necronomicon 20:58:07 macros are lovely 20:58:08 p_l: heh 20:59:01 at the point I left my investigation, I had to consider working on open-coded munging of parameters 20:59:09 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@91-119-125-214.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:59:10 well anyway if its possible to make a functoin (set-slots object 'x blah 'y whatever) thats great 20:59:13 to ensure exceptions are caught 20:59:34 n00b6502: most of SBCL is written in CL. So yes, you can do all the low-level tricks 20:59:47 n00b6502: (setf (slot-a object) 'foo (slot-b object) 'bar ..) 20:59:56 n00b6502: it's trivial. (defun set-slots (object &rest slot-value-pairs) (loop for (slot value) in slot-value-pairs do (setf (slot-value object slot) value))) 21:00:14 or that, but 21:00:15 -!- benkard [~benkard@mnch-5d8566e1.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:00:31 n00b6502: and you can change the stuff above into macro that will turn into compile-time optimized direct memory manipulation 21:00:52 -!- ticking [~janpaulbu@87.253.189.132] has quit [Quit: Linkinus - http://linkinus.com] 21:01:11 (loop for (slot value) .... is that like tuple extraction in argument lists in haskell 21:01:20 i want to 'trim' an array with a fill-pointer so it doesn't have any extra space left, it is invalid to use :initial-contents of #'make-array for this, right? 21:01:26 that is neat, didn't know it could do that 21:01:56 madnificent: (decf (fill-pointer array)) 21:02:39 pjb: can that be done with a map aswell or is loop the most versatile way 21:02:42 madnificent: as for GC, I have few things I want to bring - dynamic allocation/release of regions (instead of large address space), some optimization regarding collection sizes etc. 21:02:57 pjb: no, that will leave the same amount of space in memory. i want to release the overallocated memory. or i misunderstand the effect of (decf (fill-pointer array)) 21:03:05 Otherwise yes, :initial-content takes sequences, so if you have a fill-pointer, you're a vector, and you're good for it. 21:03:40 I just use copy-seq when I do that. 21:03:41 p_l: just switching to M&S on tenured and code objects would be awesome. Fixing alignment issues on large vectors as well. 21:03:51 -!- Spaceghostc2c [u5056@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-awghfeqbzbnsyetb] has quit [Excess Flood] 21:03:59 Spaceghostc2c [u5056@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-jgrhvbozclmtgtap] has joined #lisp 21:03:59 -!- Spaceghostc2c [u5056@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-jgrhvbozclmtgtap] has quit [Changing host] 21:03:59 Spaceghostc2c [u5056@unaffiliated/spaceghostc2c] has joined #lisp 21:03:59 -!- Spaceghostc2c [u5056@unaffiliated/spaceghostc2c] has quit [Changing host] 21:03:59 Spaceghostc2c [u5056@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-jgrhvbozclmtgtap] has joined #lisp 21:04:05 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-161-229.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:04:17 pjb: does a vector with fillpointer at position p count as a sequence of length p? 21:04:19 -!- didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:04:23 yes. 21:04:31 thanks! 21:04:33 macdice [~user@46-65-10-191.zone16.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 21:04:33 madnificent: you could have tried :-) 21:04:41 pkhuong: what do you think of nursery size based on cache size? 21:04:56 ehu: i could, but it could not have been standard behavior. the effects of doing it wrong are undefined :) 21:04:56 madnificent: So you'd only do that to really free the space beyond the fill-pointer, or to have a fresh copy. 21:05:04 correct 21:05:19 madnificent: you can also consider an adjustable array, so you can reduce the size to the fill-pointer without copying. 21:05:44 I'm not sure that's the main concern when tweaking the nursery's size. 21:05:49 -!- ASau [~user@95-26-226-160.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:05:57 steffi_s [~marioooh@rrcs-184-75-97-249.nyc.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:06:56 AFAICT, people increase it because the GC is completely stop-the-world and serial, or because they can explicitly time GCs with some application-specific heuristic. 21:07:09 didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has joined #lisp 21:07:21 pkhuong: I actually found it in a description of .NET GC, where they apparently do that to minimize GC times based on available resources 21:07:30 pjb: that may make sense too. can i force it to decrease te size of the adjustable array? or is that always the exact correct size? 21:07:42 of course, they don't necessarily have stop-the-world anymore, iirc 21:07:43 -!- HG`` [~HG@wprt-4db6e1cd.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:07:55 benkard [~benkard@mnch-5d8566e1.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 21:08:30 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:09:32 madnificent: you need to adjust the array explicitely. 21:10:01 (setf v (adjust-array v (length v))) 21:11:59 pjb: interesting, thanks! 21:12:55 n00b6502: btw, regarding low-level coding - a long-term goal of mine is to build a CL-based environment to build software from the point of IPL for a new machine 21:13:07 p_l: right. we might have more fundamental issues to address before caching becomes relevant there ;) 21:13:08 Movitz 21:13:36 IPL= ? 21:13:39 Unless it's not a new ix86 machine :-) 21:13:42 n00b6502: Initial Program Load 21:13:44 Initial Program Load = BOOT 21:13:45 iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has joined #lisp 21:13:47 jao` [~user@164.Red-83-32-68.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 21:13:48 pjb: not x86 21:13:53 oh ok 21:14:04 -!- jao` [~user@164.Red-83-32-68.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Changing host] 21:14:04 jao` [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has joined #lisp 21:14:04 sellout42 [~Adium@c-98-245-92-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:14:38 n00b6502: most importantly, the point where (in PC), the *BIOS* is booted, before memory is available 21:15:05 well, before RAM is started 21:15:33 -!- bitonic [~user@027cae25.bb.sky.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:15:43 mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.32.192] has joined #lisp 21:16:47 -!- MoALTz [~no@host-92-8-146-22.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:19:15 p_l: in normal hardware, the whole memory is available when you power on the machine. 21:19:26 It's only on baroque hardware like the ix86 that this doesn't happen. 21:20:09 pjb: ?? No way, something always needs to initialize the memory controller and such things. 21:20:14 -!- milanj [~milanj_@79-101-197-111.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:20:21 pjb: nope. You have code that sets the DRAM controllers 21:20:21 No. 21:20:40 That's baroque. 21:20:43 that's true for ARM, Alpha, and probably few others 21:20:56 I think S/370 doesn't have that 21:20:58 All the machines I've used at assembly level (ie. 680x0 machines) had the whole memory accessingle from power on. 21:21:16 -!- benkard [~benkard@mnch-5d8566e1.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:21:17 s/ng/b 21:21:27 pjb: did they have ram directly on cpu bus? 21:21:33 Yes. 21:21:56 here's your answer. Most modern chips can't be run that way effectively 21:22:29 Hardware guys are becoming lazy. 21:22:34 If it's not in code you see, it's in code you don't see. 21:22:50 no. They simply have to deal with quickly-changing reality 21:22:57 Might as well make it in code you see, so it's easier to fix bugs in it. 21:23:45 in 68k it was fine for memory to slave memory chip to cpu bus cycle. Today, even the chip in my phone doesn't have that luxury 21:24:01 foom: so, no hardware division? ;) 21:24:46 -!- dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 21:25:04 pkhuong: If you can implement it in software just as efficiently, sure, that's great. Apparently that's not feasible for division, though. 21:26:16 take for example a not-so-recent Athlon 64 X2 - on boot, you have to a) bring up cpu fabric b) bring up DRAM controllers (which have three different modes in addition to variety of DRAM configs) c) build basic ccNUMA map d) memory is working 21:27:51 foom: it was, for some architectures at least, in the 90s (one of the classic div-by-mul paper reports speed ups from avoiding the HW divider even with runtime variant divisors). And then Intel just threw more surface area at it. 21:28:36 Well, gotta find *some* use for all that surface area after all. :) 21:30:03 stardiviner [~stardivin@122.236.245.240] has joined #lisp 21:30:44 how do I read documentation from docstrings? reading the source is a bit... inconvinient. 21:32:50 (documentation 'fun 'function) 21:32:56 (documentation 'var 'variable) 21:32:58 etc. 21:36:10 no function browser available? 21:36:13 reactormonk: If you're using SLIME, C-c C-d f, C-c C-d d and C-c C-d h might help. 21:36:28 didi: oh, thanks 21:36:38 ticking [~janpaulbu@87.253.189.132] has joined #lisp 21:38:10 and there are programs to extract the documentation and generate nice whatever (pdf, html, etc). 21:41:46 Anyone know offhand if ABCL does "compile time" macro evaluation such that it can create images that may create data structures? 21:41:50 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:43:10 Modius: it has to, to be standard-compliant. 21:43:27 Modius: your question is inconsistent. 21:43:37 Modius: what do you want to do? 21:43:59 antonv [5d7d31f9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.49.249] has joined #lisp 21:44:12 pjb: Distant interest in ABCL - don't want to specifically do anything. I wanted to know though if they'd managed that part of the problem. 21:44:30 Modius: "that part of the problem" is illogical. 21:45:11 pjb: In a CL that creates binary images you can embed a data structure into code. Hypothetically ,I could write a lisp that was a pure interpreter that had no ability to be used to embed a pre-populated data structure. I was wondering if they had the former in ABCL 21:45:25 -!- lcc [~lcc@unaffiliated/lcc] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 21:45:25 It must implement minimal compilation like any CL implementation. It can create images. And you can create data structures at run-time. Three things totally unrelated. 21:46:18 Definining method on make-load-form is useful only when you load fasl file, not when you load images, so again, your question is illogical. 21:46:32 lcc [~lcc@unaffiliated/lcc] has joined #lisp 21:46:37 moore33 [~moore@17.185.125.78.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 21:47:13 Modius: it can work like LOAD and generate code that, when executed, re-creates the data. 21:47:44 Yes, if that was the question, it can generate fasl files (.class actually), and yes, YOU can define methods on make-load-form. 21:48:29 Nice. 21:48:54 So, so far we have five features of CL totally unrelated, that yes, are implemented by ABCL. 21:50:58 booguie [~booguie@wsip-98-172-168-236.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 21:51:36 -!- andrewsw [~andrew@swclan.homelinux.org] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:53:05 -!- ynniv [~ynniv@c-24-98-197-10.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ynniv] 21:55:46 DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@1.133.39.68] has joined #lisp 21:56:22 nydel [~nydel@ip72-197-235-21.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 21:56:35 hiya 21:56:36 -!- stat_vi [~stat@dslb-094-218-236-152.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:58:42 pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has joined #lisp 21:59:06 -!- Alice3 [~Alice@cpc3-grim12-0-0-cust856.12-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [] 22:01:11 -!- moore33 [~moore@17.185.125.78.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:01:11 centipedefarmer [~centipede@75-170-158-31.desm.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 22:04:59 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-145-115.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:05:42 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 22:19:18 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-17-207-226.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:20:36 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-2-151-162.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:23:38 Guthur [~user@212.183.128.184] has joined #lisp 22:24:29 BountyX [~andrew@li450-44.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 22:26:05 moore33 [~moore@17.185.125.78.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 22:27:20 -!- antonv [5d7d31f9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.49.249] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 22:28:41 -!- BountyX [~andrew@li450-44.members.linode.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:29:45 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:33:35 is (open-socket-server) included in most commonlisps? or is there an inpackage or additional library? 22:35:33 minion: usocket 22:35:33 usocket: USOCKET is a networking portability layer for BSD-style sockets. http://www.cliki.net/usocket 22:36:59 am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.146] has joined #lisp 22:37:07 -!- rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:37:15 -!- punee [~punee@213-245-106-105.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Quit: punee] 22:37:20 pkhuong to the rescue once again 22:37:21 thanks 22:38:14 pkhuong: what about (open-socket-server) though? in clisp i get undefined function but books seem to suggest it should be defined in most cl's 22:38:42 superflit_ [~superflit@209-181-75-162.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 22:38:54 -!- superflit [~superflit@209-181-74-166.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:38:54 -!- superflit_ is now known as superflit 22:39:27 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@1.133.39.68] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:40:08 -!- dan [~dan@gateway/tor-sasl/dan] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:40:54 robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:44:06 -!- pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:44:33 dan [~dan@gateway/tor-sasl/dan] has joined #lisp 22:44:46 nydel: the interface in usocket is lower level (pretty much the BSD interface) 22:47:06 pkhuong: thanks. i'm trying to build a simple two-way chat thing. don't really know what i'm doing. 22:47:33 nydel: have you considered sending it over the HTTP protocol? 22:49:00 madnificent: i haven't considered much yet hehe & i'm so very open to suggestions or pointers to jumping-off-points 22:49:10 -!- iLogical [~iLogical@unaffiliated/ilogical] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:50:52 nydel: it might be simpler to implement and test something which uses huncehntoot and drakma. not that using usocket is a bad idea per se, far from it. HTTP seems to be quite normal to use these days, that's why i asked. 22:54:44 madnificent: great, thank you - i'm mostly exploring, so this is very good stuff. 22:58:34 BountyX [~andrew@li450-44.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 22:58:54 madnificent: this may sound stupid, but, i imagine my friends & i using some sort of alternative way of using internet connectivity which is essentially an REPL. like we're all logged in to the same *nix with shells. but it's customized with commands that interface with crap we're slaves to, such as the tweeter and the myface, using their api. but i hate javascript so much and the only way to have a dynamic form via html dom seems to be using aj 22:58:55 ax, and all that feels so gross. i wish something like IRC were the standard for internet socializing. any idea the feeling i'm (doing a poor job) describing? 22:58:57 nydel: ping me if you choose to walk that route. i doubt usocket is supposed to give you many issues though 22:59:26 antonv [5d7d31f9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.49.249] has joined #lisp 23:00:21 nydel: i'm too tired/ill to make either good decisions or to catch your drift, it seems. but i can imagine someone wanting a different way of communication than facebook and the likes 23:01:02 at this point i wonder if javascript touched my bum when i was a child, i just have such a strong & perhaps unjustified aversion to it. 23:01:35 Javascript may be a pervert, but it has a lot of deep, interesting features. 23:01:46 you probably shouldn't hate any language. but you can probably make connections with their api easily using drakma 23:02:27 nydel: you can try working with native client. 23:02:36 moore33: anything aside from dynamic scoping (which also kind-of sucks) and the prototype based object system? 23:02:43 nydel: that sounds like super dimension fortress (except less 80sy) 23:02:49 i suppose i assume that a website asking to use javascript is probably doing it mostly to sell/track me. 23:03:07 -!- BountyX [~andrew@li450-44.members.linode.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:03:17 Sorella [~quildreen@oftn/member/Sorella] has joined #lisp 23:03:25 madnificent:closures... 23:03:27 javascript is bad, but not that bad, you can make it sort of manageable. 23:03:30 nydel: i have a few sites which require javascript and have *no* tracking so far. css often doesn't cut it 23:03:35 I just switched to yahoo because google had some script and some nagging stuff displaying on random pages. 23:03:37 moore33: ah yes, that's called a feature these days 23:03:45 pkhuong: you've got a super-relevant answer for everything, don't ya. 23:03:53 pjb: and seach by duckduckgo \o/ 23:03:59 pkhuong: this is pretty much exactly what i am talking about. 23:04:10 Yes, there are a lot of alternatives. 23:04:21 madnificent: It is a feature, not made less so by being around in "Lisp" for almost 40 years. 23:04:35 madnificent: Do you use !g? Does it became slow to you? 23:05:05 -!- steffi_s [~marioooh@rrcs-184-75-97-249.nyc.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: zzzz] 23:05:34 moore33: i was finding it an obvious thing to have. that's why i phrased it the way i did. i was implying that javascript is not so great, it is that some other languages are just that bad 23:05:51 madnificent: i feel better about myself if i use zero javascript in making a webpage. & if i do need to use it, it's only for ajax, making xml objects to update things like a log - then i am compelled to put a link to the source explaining why exactly the site requires javascript & a privacy contract etc etc 23:06:06 didi: it is slightly less relevant from time to time. wrong bubble, i guess. back to lisp :) 23:06:37 BountyX [~andrew@li450-44.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 23:06:43 maybe i'm just crazy but i have this feeling like internet could've turned out differently. more dynamic & less download-a-document. 23:06:44 dreish [~dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 23:06:51 nydel: i have better things to do than that. but enjoy :) 23:06:59 madnificent: You think it's obvious because you know CL (or scheme). I think it's cool that the lowest common denominator web language has closures. 23:07:15 nydel: yeah, if only NeWS had worked out. 23:07:30 or display postscript. 23:07:32 nydel: Hehe, seems like Alan Kay. 23:07:47 moore33: but this is still #lisp, so i expect a certain level of quality of a language when people say that it has some good bits. i understand what you want to say though 23:08:17 DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@1.158.251.196] has joined #lisp 23:08:39 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@178.138.32.192] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:08:40 pkhuong: NeWS? (sorry, i can't look that up) 23:09:15 madnificent: I haven't done a lot of Javascript programming, but when I look at it I am pleasantly surprised, and that is saying something. I think it gets a bad rap; even lispers can admit that. 23:09:31 didi: Alan Kay seems super interesting. this is great, lots of fun jop's today. i like this channel. 23:09:32 nydel: wikipedia it up. 23:10:03 sykopomp [~sykopomp@gateway/tor-sasl/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 23:10:06 -!- BountyX [~andrew@li450-44.members.linode.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:10:10 of course. by the by, is there a manner to make goggle case sensitive? 23:11:23 sleep time 23:11:27 is it this? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NeWS 23:11:29 hehe madnificent doesn't like me, he has better things to do. i believe him too. i bet he's doing something that matters & is awesome. 23:11:37 pavelpenev: i think so 23:11:51 moore33: sleep well 23:12:24 gurrag [~gurrag@bb-216-195-184-91.gwi.net] has joined #lisp 23:12:25 -!- gurrag [~gurrag@bb-216-195-184-91.gwi.net] has quit [Changing host] 23:12:25 gurrag [~gurrag@unaffiliated/gurrag] has joined #lisp 23:13:09 this looks pretty cool, almost redeems Gosling for Java :) 23:13:33 -!- centipedefarmer [~centipede@75-170-158-31.desm.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 23:13:53 nydel: i don't dislike you, sorry! 23:14:40 pavelpenev: http://xach.livejournal.com/108729.html?thread=182969 <-- see also 23:15:25 Xach: thanks 23:15:49 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 23:16:02 madnificent: you should consider it, i'm an idiot. 23:16:05 -!- ticking [~janpaulbu@87.253.189.132] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 23:16:31 That said, you can use postscript in your X11 application anytime you want. 23:16:36 isnt javascript like a frontend for a lisplike language internally 23:16:37 Xach: is the email link dead? 23:17:14 n00b6502: if that's the case i'd love to learn more about the back end 23:17:55 i've seen it described that it has more in common with lisp than the things it superficially resembles 23:17:56 nydel: javascript is basically a lisp-1 with an algol syntax bolted on top of it so it resembled java a bit more (which is where it got its name from). 23:18:14 n00b6502: it's the most frontend-feeling language i can think of 23:18:15 and basically its got nothing to do twith java other than curly brackets 23:18:47 it was actually called livescript, and namegot changed for marketing reasons (to go together with JRE bundled with Netscape) 23:19:30 i wrote a simple dsl abit like that cut down, started as s-expressions then got a clike syntax bolted on later 23:20:17 madnificent: that somehow makes me feel better about javascript. 23:21:11 Bike: oh, fooey 23:21:43 nydel: that icky feeling you get from it could potentially come from the fact that the syntax doesn't really match the semantics. not sure though, i don't mind it for smaller things :) back to lisp though. you want to connect to some external service? 23:22:33 after GOAL happened i was always thinking the ps3 could have benefitted from a similar system since idiomatic C++ was so hard to port to SPUs 23:23:00 -!- Forty-Two [~seana11@pool-96-255-130-43.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 23:23:31 the PS3 could have benefitted from not having an OS that was allowed to do random things in the background 23:23:33 madnificent: yes, i'd like to start with something simple. simplest. 23:23:35 (frustration) 23:23:59 nydel: what services do you want to connect to? do you have the (preferably HTTP) api of one of them? 23:24:03 thinking out loud, could you build a DSL in lisp for precompiled object graphs. "blobs". or maybe that even happens as a matter of course 23:24:25 Xach: archive.org works, at least 23:24:33 i always had done this sort of thing manually in C with #defines for relative pointers and later c++ templates for them 23:24:41 madnificent: i could start with twitter. i have an application & credentials & they have http api. 23:25:20 -!- sepuku [~spk@dsl-aav0rt.dyn.edudsl.gr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:26:01 nydel: ok, fetch drakma from quicklisp and start to figure out how to connect to that first. that'll get you in a position in which can pull in some data. it's on the other end of the spectrum, but it may get you more comfortable with what you can access. (there might already be a twitter library) 23:28:03 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 23:28:11 -!- iocor [~textual@unaffiliated/iocor] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 23:28:29 findiggle [~kirkwood@50-194-56-154-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 23:31:06 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@217.17.38.43] has quit [Quit: good ight] 23:31:34 madnificent: sorry, do you recall the syntax for a form to install something with quicklisp? i thought (quicklisp:install this) but it's not that simple is it 23:31:54 Jubb [~ghost@pool-108-28-0-134.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:32:17 nydel: quickloading will install on demand. 23:33:16 nydel: (ql:quickload :drakma) should do the trick 23:34:06 madnificent: righttt. just tried that. it's thinking very hard. (thanks so much i truly appreciate this) 23:35:10 -!- VieiraN [~VieiraN@187.10.244.166] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:35:55 nydel: you'll build something awesome and my workflow will become more productive because of it. pure self-interest 23:36:21 nydel: on a serious note: you should be able to get started with drakma in the repl. 23:36:32 that'll be the day! 23:37:03 oh. :drakma, not 'drakma. my idiocy knows no bounds 23:37:15 nydel: both should work 23:37:18 makes no difference 23:37:31 what sort of thing do people use lisp for here 23:38:01 hmm, it's hanging & being silent, is that normal? 23:38:22 (article (if (position (schar name 0) "AEIOU") "an" "a")) <-- I'm almost surprised there's no format directive for this... 23:39:34 pnq [~nick@unaffiliated/pnq] has joined #lisp 23:40:24 Nisstyre_ [~yours@c-208-90-102-250.netflash.net] has joined #lisp 23:41:10 Forty-Two [~seana11@pool-96-255-130-43.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:41:22 nydel: no, it should fetch the sources, show a few dots, and have everything ready for you 23:41:24 Dovahkiin [~Dovahkiin@c-75-71-21-183.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:41:39 nydel: what implementation are you using, are you using slime as well, anything special about the setup? 23:41:43 -!- Dovahkiin is now known as aslan69 23:41:56 madnificent: there it goes.. (:DRAKMA) 23:42:00 clisp, nothing special 23:42:05 on ubuntu 23:42:39 nydel: sbcl might give you an easier time. but clisp should work too :) 23:44:38 n00b6502: cliki.net should have a list of what people did and do :) 23:47:56 -!- logger_ [~logger@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:48:54 -!- m7w [~chatzilla@178.172.214.225] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 23:50:43 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8] 23:54:08 eni [~eni@31.171.153.34] has joined #lisp 23:57:04 logger_ [~logger@84-73-159-126.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 23:58:47 patrickwonders [~patrickwo@user-38q42ns.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 23:58:50 centipedefarmer [~centipede@75-170-158-31.desm.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 23:58:56 pirateking-_- [~piratekin@c-67-169-182-169.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp